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I've got a difficult conversation I want to have with someone and they might be a narcissist. So, let's stop there because if you just
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blatantly label somebody as being a narcissist, you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is
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and and why they are the way they are. But when you need to go into a dark conversation to make things simple, there are four things that you can do
00:00:17
because we all have those conversations. We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion, maybe our spouse we got in a fight with, a friend
00:00:24
who's betrayed us, and they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you don't know how to handle that.
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But there's also three things that you should stop doing, such as stop telling people you understand. Telling them you understand.
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Yep. Why? This is what we're going to talk about. For over 30 years, former Secret Service agent Desmond O'Neal has used
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sciencebacked interrogation techniques against some of the world's biggest liars. He's trained elite teams from the FBI to
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the CIA. And now, in his first public conversation, he's laying out the frameworks you need to communicate
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effectively, how to lead, and how to get anyone to open up. When it comes to being able to communicate with somebody, the victory lies in the
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little things that you do. So, you need to have a plan. P is for purpose. So, why are you there? What is the goal of
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the conversation? Because especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to get distracted. And if
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you lose your cool, you lose control. And then there's the A is to ask. Because most of us think we know what
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our partner is thinking, right? But the research shows we're only accurate about 40% of the time. And if that conversation gets emotional, that 40%
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can go down as low as 15. It's called empathy accuracy. And so the power of asking questions is important, but when
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you fail to do that, you are going to have a really hard time having a deep, honest relationship with somebody. And
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then there's the L and the N, which most people do wrong, and we'll go into that. And then what about body language? Can you tell if I'm being deceptive by how
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much I look at someone? So there's a few indicators of somebody telling the truth, and we'll talk about them. And what about leadership principles?
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So I learned the true essence of leadership when I was on a SWAT team from situations like when you're hunting
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someone and they're hunting you as well. So, let's get into the details. I see messages all the time in the
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comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel,
00:02:03
that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to
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keep everything going in this show in the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you've subscribed and uh
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thank you so much because in a strange way, you are you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us and I
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appreciate you for that. So yeah, thank you
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Desmond O'Neal. For those people that have just clicked onto this conversation,
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what are they going to walk away from our discussion with? So I've been in law
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enforcement for 30 years and I've served a lot of different roles in that. And
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above everything else, the one thing that I've learned is when stress is
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high, when emotions are strong, when it matters, how do you authentically
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connect and communicate with somebody else? There's something to be said about
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when a conversation is easy, right? When it's fun, when everybody wants to be
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there, you can focus on your handshake. You can focus on the eye contact, how great your posture is. What about the
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dark conversations? What about those conversations that kind of they live in the shadows of your mind because you
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don't want to face them. You don't want to have those, right? They're they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much
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tension that you just you don't know how to handle that. We all have that, right? We have a supervisor who we feel is
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overlooking us in a promotion. We have, you know, a family member who we feel that we're just no longer getting along
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with. Maybe our spouse we got in a fight with. Maybe a friend who's betrayed us. So, how do you have that conversation?
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Like, what does that look like? Because it comes from, you know, for the 30 years that I've
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been doing this, most of the people that I talked to didn't want to talk to me. And my job was to connect with them, to
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find a way to get them to open up, to find a way to have some type of understanding and get the information
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that I needed. So, this is not about interview or interrogation. This is this is human connection. If your audience
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cares to understand how to have a dark conversation where you can deepen that
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relationship or at least come to some type of understanding or at the very
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least not walk away ruminating on everything you said trying to figure out
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what went wrong, what could you have done different? If you've had that and you're interested in knowing, then this is this is where we're going to talk
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about that. And to summarize in I guess 30 seconds why you're the guy that is
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best placed to deliver this information, what is what are the reference points, the experiences, the the variety of
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experience you've had that feeds into the answers and the actionable advice you want to give my audience?
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My initial career started as a corrections officer, became a police officer and I was a SWAT officer as
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well. From there I went to the federal government. So I went to the secret service. Uh with the secret service I also started a polygraph career. So now
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I have people that are giving me their deepest, darkest secrets. And just for context, polygraphing is a
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lie detection test. Polygraph is a lie detection test. So it gives you a psychological or a
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physiological response in terms of how somebody answers a particular question. Where else did your career take you
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after that point? I went into internal affairs and so that
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is now policing the people within our organization. So now I'm talking to men and women who have had some of my
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interrogation training. They kind of know the questioning going on. They know the interaction. They've done themselves
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interviews and interrogations. Oh, okay. So this is law enforcement officers who have committed a crime or
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some kind of mis issue or been reported for something and your job is to investigate them.
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Yes. But think about that for a minute. like you're now talking to somebody else who, you know, maybe a year ago you were
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out in the street doing work with and now you're asking them these questions or these for clarification on some type
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of allegation. You got to be you got to be mindful with that. Like that's a big deal. And the the interview methods that were
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prevalent at that time you felt were outdated. They were. So there is in the US there's
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a very historical evolution of interview and interrogation. You know, it started in the 1900s when policing came in. In
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that circumstance, it was physical abuse. They called it the third degree where you would go in and, you know,
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people would grind down your teeth or they would cause pain for you to talk to them. As we've evolved as a society, that
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started to go away in lie of psychological manipulation. So, it was less about hands-on and more about
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trying to get people to talk to you from a psychological perspective. And right about 2014 when I went into
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internal affairs, I was like, Stephen, I was like, I just there's got to be something different. Like, we've had to
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evolved in some way in terms of what that is. And so, you know, you have my thesis there, right? Right about that
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time, I was accepted into the Naval Postgraduate School to pursue a masters.
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And because I was looking for a better way to interview, one of my thesis
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advisors said, "Hey, have you ever heard of the highvalue detainee interrogation group, which the acronym is HIG?" Had
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never heard of it, but the HIG when it was created was was three-prong, meaning that it had
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a a research department, right? And it had a practitioner department, so the people that would do the the the
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interrogations. And then it had a trainer department. Now the trainer department, we would do interviews,
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interrogations, but we also understood the science behind that. The reason that's important is because you could be
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a really good practitioner and not understand why something is or isn't working. And so being able to
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cross the bridge between the the science and understanding that and being able to
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apply it in the room, that hybrid, that connection, that sweet spot, that is what I did. So, you did research and you
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continue to do research on how to get people to give information, how to get
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information from people, how to get them to offer up information. Is that the crux of it? Yeah. So, if I'm, you know, I've got a
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difficult conversation I want to have with someone, this person is antagonistic, they often gaslight me,
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they might be a narcissist, and I'm walking into that conversation or, you know, I'm overthinking it. I'm thinking, "God, I need to have this conversation."
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Where's the first place to start? So the first place that I would start is don't label the people how you just label
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them. Okay. And that's a problem. So you just labeled somebody a narcissist. Why does that matter to you?
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I think it allows me to blame them. I guess allows you to blame but but tell me tell me in your perspective what's a narcissist?
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That they are they are low empathy. They are self-centered. They are a little bit aggressive maybe.
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Okay. So let's stop there. Do you think personally that there are times in your
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life where you lack empathy? Yeah. Okay. So empathy is very situationally based. So meaning that it's also
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subjective. Meaning if you feel this person is not giving you certain empathy, okay, maybe um a bit
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self-centered, a bit aggressive, you the reason I ask you these things is because if you just blatantly label somebody as
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being like this person's a narcissist, you've just you've just made it easy for yourself. You've just put blame on them
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and you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and and why they are the way they are. So
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the first thing that I would do is I would take away the labels as how you define them as you're going into that.
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What was the other thing you said in terms of what they were? They were narcissists. They were something else. Um they gaslight.
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So second thing uh which is interesting because we actually within our training uh program we just did a big class on
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gaslighting because it's important to understand what is gaslighting and what when is it
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not gaslighting. So for you cuz you said this person gaslights you. What is What are they gaslighting you about?
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Um, when I bring something up, they make me feel like
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I'm to blame. When I when I bring up how I feel, maybe they make me feel like I'm to blame, like I did something wrong.
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Okay. Does that always happen? More often than not. Okay. More often than not. So, it's
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something that it sounds like that when you go in and you're talking to this different person, whatever the circumstances is, they are they're
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trying to discredit you or make you feel like maybe you don't know really what happened. They're not listening. They're just always throwing it back on me, saying
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that I did something to deserve it. And what was the third thing you said? A little bit like aggressive, antagonistic. So,
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okay. Their their emotions go up and it kind of makes me shut down. Okay. They kind of flood the zone. So, when
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you need to go into a dark conversation, here are the four things that you can do to stay engaged and involved in in in
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what's about to happen, right? And in how this is going to hopefully go through. And what we say is you need to
00:11:03
have a plan. And there's the acronym about that, P, right? L A N. So, the P
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is for purpose. And the purpose is why are you there?
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What's the reason? What's the mission? You have to understand your mission because your mission is going to drive
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your tactics. Your mission is going to determine if things get off track. If this person becomes aggressive, this
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person starts to be insulting. If my mission at that moment is to deepen my conversation with them and deepen my
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relationship in some way, and this starts to get ugly in the middle, your mission should keep you on track because
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you can get pulled from that very quickly. There's something called multiple goals theory. And multiple
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goals theory is the understanding that at any given time we will pursue
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simultaneous goals. And typically those goals would be something task oriented. You know I want to I want to finish a
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tasking. I want to get something done. There's going to be a component of identity in there meaning that how do I
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feel? What are my emotions going on during the course of this? And then there's going to be relational. So it's
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going to be my relationship with this person at the time. Now, a lot of times within multiple goals theory, those
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things can align. So, and I'll give you example like if you're playing a sport, you're on a team. Uh the team goal, your
00:12:19
goal within that team, the task is to win, to put on more points than the other person. That's the task. The
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identity aspect of that is am I a good player? Do do I want the ball? Do I get the ball? Am I contributing? Am I the
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superstar? Is there some type of identity and how this makes me feel about myself being being a sports star
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in some capacity? And the relationship part of that is how do my teammates feel about me? Am I
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inter am I a good teammate in terms of what that was? Those things can align. You can see when that is misaligned when
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all of a sudden somebody what they would call a ball hog, somebody takes the shot all the time or they won't pass it around and you're like Ronaldo,
00:12:57
what are you doing? Right? And it's one of these things where like you are more concerned about your identity than you are about the team winning. That's a
00:13:03
problem. That's when you can see there's a misalignment of goals. Or something that's even more simple would be let's
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say you're in a meeting with uh a boss or a colleague and it's a pretty important meeting. You're you're trying
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to close a deal and your boss says something that's wrong. Now
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you have to make a decision. You could either correct your boss in front of
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everybody or you could preserve his or her dignity and address them at a later
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time. You have to decide which one of those is most important. You have to understand your purpose of being in that
00:13:38
meeting because maybe I could let this go. It's not that big of a deal because if I correct my boss, this may affect my
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relationship with them at a later time. This could ruin my career in terms of being transferred or or not being on a
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project. So when you're looking at goals, you have to understand what the overall objective is. It becomes
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Stephen, it becomes, especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to to get distracted. Really
00:14:03
easy. So I go into that conversation with my colleague who is problematic. My goal with them, let's say, is to get them to
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stop. I'm actually thinking about earlier in my career when I used to work in call centers on the phone and um
00:14:16
there was one particular lady that sat next to me that was always a little bit rude and always put me down a little bit bit patronizing. So I I in hindsight
00:14:24
wish I could have you know taken her aside and had a conversation with her and said listen the way you're speaking
00:14:30
to me is very disrespectful or you're putting me down or patronizing me. Please can you stop doing that? My goal would have been to to get her to stop.
00:14:36
It is to get her to do that, but the crux of that is to understand why she's doing it because that's going to allow me to fix this in some way if it if it's
00:14:44
fixable. I I'll share the story with you. In 1991, an 11-year-old girl named JC Duggard was
00:14:52
kidnapped by a man named Philip Gerrio and his wife Nancy. And Philip and Nancy
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kept JC Duggard for 18 years. He fathered two children with her. One when
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she was 14 and one when she was 17. And in 2009, they found her and him at Berkeley. They
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arrested him, arrested his wife. 2011, he was, you know, tried, convicted.
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Three years prior to that, there was a young girl named Michaela
00:15:21
Garrett who had gone missing, never been found in a county over west of Elorado
00:15:27
in a county named Alama County. There was a lot of suspicion that Philillip was the one who did this as well. And
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one of my one of my colleagues was the prosecuting attorney for Elorado County, California. His name is Vern Pearson.
00:15:41
And Vern said, I'd like to close this or get some type of understanding. Can you go and interview Philip? So I looked at
00:15:50
all the information on Philip. He had written a manifesto in terms of how to cure pedophilia. And I went to Vern. I
00:15:56
said, "All right, I'm let's go do this and he goes, "What do you need like a day, a couple of hours?" And I said, "I
00:16:01
need four days." And my goal was to do a deep dive into the things that he had
00:16:06
done. He was a a serial rapist, uh, a serial kidnapper, and to understand his
00:16:12
life in the time frame by which Michaela Garrett went missing. And so this was the evolution of what I was trying to
00:16:18
do. So I show up, he walks in, says, "Who are you?" I said, "Well, I'm special agent O'Neal. I'd like to talk
00:16:24
to you about um your history. I read your manifesto and I had some questions.
00:16:29
And he said, you know, uh, when they told me I had a visitor, he goes, I wasn't going to come
00:16:34
in. He goes, but the angels on my shoulder tell me that this would be a good good talk. So he said, let's do it.
00:16:40
We talked in detail every day for probably 8 to nine hours. They brought him food. And the end of each day, I
00:16:46
would say, Phillip, um, I will be here tomorrow. If the if the angels on your shoulder tell you to show up, please do.
00:16:52
If not, then it was nice to meet you. And every day he showed up. Why did you say that? There there's a there's a depth of
00:16:59
understanding in terms of the headsp space that he is in. And so when you can connect like genuinely connect with that
00:17:05
you you truly try to understand another person and there's power with that in the course of
00:17:11
those 36 hours. Multiple times he was very aggressive. He was very
00:17:18
condescending. He called me a liar. Things he accused me of you. I don't believe you are who you say you are. I
00:17:24
don't believe you're here for the things you're saying you're here for. Um I don't even know if he worked for the federal government. And he's essentially
00:17:30
questioned my integrity. Now, my purpose is not to make him feel that I'm smarter
00:17:37
than him. Is not to belittle or berate him or or have a a
00:17:44
question of, you know, integrity. Cuz I could have said, "You kidnapped an 11-year-old girl and kept her captive
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for 18 years, fathered two children with her, the first one at the age of 14." and your question of my integrity. I
00:17:55
didn't do that because that's not why I was there. And so despite the fact that
00:18:00
he got upset, despite the fact that he called me and accused me of all these different things, I stayed on my purpose. I stayed on my mission. And
00:18:08
when we were done, when we finished, I went back to the prosecuting attorney and said, "He's not your guy." And he
00:18:13
said, "Are you sure?" And I said, "I bet my career on it." How did you know? There's a lot of
00:18:18
things in regards to when you're looking at people from the perspective of telling the truth in terms of the way
00:18:25
that they they talk and engage with you. Our conversation on Tuesday and our conversation on Wednesday and our
00:18:31
conversation on Thursday and our conversation on Friday all stayed very consistent. If I'm asking him for further clarification, he's providing
00:18:38
for further clarification. If I'm talking to him about, you know, something and there's some type of
00:18:43
spontaneous correction where he's like, "Wait a minute. This happened uh before this, those are those are indicators of
00:18:50
of truth. And if there are things that you know, he he talks about in terms of
00:18:56
like things that are of complication. Nobody's day goes perfect." And you know
00:19:02
there were many times when he was telling me about the things he had done because you know he was a serial rapist
00:19:09
you know and a serial you know kidnapper and he would drive around and pick up women and hitchhiking and he would you
00:19:15
know rape them and let them go. Often times we would get into the details of like when those didn't go well right and
00:19:20
when all of a sudden the the girl would would fight him off and run away and so there was all these different complications and different things that
00:19:26
he would talk about. He handled the complications consistently is what you're saying. When complications are introduced to a
00:19:33
story, right, people who lie don't do that, right? It's truth tellers will often do that because it's just like
00:19:38
this is just what happened. Like these are the things that happened. This is my life in terms of where things were going to go. Overall, in terms of how that
00:19:45
conversation went, there were those type of indicators that just made it trend more truthful than not. like there
00:19:51
wasn't this big gap or this big weird moment when we're talking about Michaela Garrett to where all of a sudden it's
00:19:57
like missing pieces that I have to put in there. There are no cues to deception. There are things that all of
00:20:02
a sudden seem different and require you to do more questions, more asking, but that didn't
00:20:08
occur around the time that we were looking for with that. Okay. So, we finally when we finished
00:20:14
and then they went back and they looked at the evidence, they found a new fingerprint and were able to um charge
00:20:21
and convict uh the person who did that. The reason I bring all of that up is because for the purpose aspects of what
00:20:28
we're talking about, not losing sight of what your mission is, being focused in terms of what that
00:20:34
is. The power of communication and staying online as it relates to what you
00:20:40
want to accomplish is really powerful because it keeps you on track and it
00:20:45
keeps you engaged and reminds you of why you're there. Not every relationship deserves that. Like there's just some
00:20:51
relationships you're like, "This just isn't worth it for me." If it matters to you, that mattered to me. It mattered to me not because for me, it mattered to me
00:20:58
for that family. And there is a difference between having a profession and being a professional. Having a
00:21:04
profession is what you do. Being a professional is the culmination of everything that you've done at that
00:21:09
moment, at that time for a specific purpose. And that's what I had to bring in with that because that was what was
00:21:15
at stake with this. Um, so you have this these four cards in front of you.
00:21:20
We've done the P which is staying focused on your purpose when you go into conversation to to fend off the emotion which might distort you and take you
00:21:26
off. And I'm so guilty of that. You know, everybody is so guilty of that with especially with like you know
00:21:32
conversations with with my partner where there's emotion involved and there's some areas where you know blame might be
00:21:38
prevalent. So the L that you have there. So the L
00:21:44
is listen this becomes the thing that people are worst at because it's a lot
00:21:53
to do. Think about right now think about my conversation with you at this moment.
00:21:58
I'm speaking so internally my internal vocabulary and the conversation that I'm having in my head is running about 800
00:22:05
to a,000 words a minute. I'm speaking to you in about 120 to 150 words a minute.
00:22:11
There's a lot that's being edited. There's a lot of things that I think that I'm saying or I want to say. I'm trying to engage with you. There's also
00:22:17
something called theory of mind, which is me watching you and trying to
00:22:22
understand is what I'm saying on point with what Stephen wants to hear or wants to hear
00:22:28
for his audience. Do I need to change anything? Does this landing on him? And then if your non-verbals change or your
00:22:35
verbal changed, then I have to readjust maybe what I'm editing and my theory of mine will readjust too because I'm like,
00:22:40
"Oh, I just lost him here. I have to I have to readjust." Simultaneously,
00:22:46
you are listening to me and you're listening to the 120 to 150 words I'm
00:22:51
giving you, but your brain can process this at like 4 to 600 words per minute. So, you have too much cognitive
00:22:57
bandwidth. you have the ability to listen to me and then do multiple other things which is oftentimes why people
00:23:03
will drift out or you'll start thinking of something else or you'll think of your your notepad because you got it you got it figured out and this is when it
00:23:09
becomes really easy to be convinced and not curious because you're like I kind of know where this is going and so you
00:23:16
check out so you actually have to do something called cognitive inhibition you have to kind of narrow that bandwidth to stay fully engaged with me
00:23:23
that's why when you hear people say like active listening it's hard it's hard to do because you have to be attentive to
00:23:30
the other person. You have to listen. You have to look. You have to pick up their verbal and their non-verbal
00:23:35
behavior. And you then you have to do something with that. Steven CVY says most people don't listen with the intent
00:23:44
to understand. They listen with the intent to reply.
00:23:49
And if you are simply just waiting for your turn to talk, then you and I are not are not connecting.
00:23:56
Controlling conversation comes from listening, not talking. So if I'm trying to if I'm trying to get some information
00:24:02
out of someone, I should have a bias towards just letting them speak at me. You should, you know, you hear about
00:24:09
this like always let the other person talk more. That's great. But if both people are doing that, then the conversation is not progressing. The
00:24:14
conversation is an extension of what you and I are speaking with. And when we've
00:24:20
gone from listening in terms of what that looks like, the next thing you have to do which gets into this is the A
00:24:26
which is which is ask. Right? So the A being this. If you are paying attention
00:24:32
to me and you're picking up on things that I'm saying, the changes in my body language, and
00:24:39
there's something you don't understand, you need to ask. This is where you're going to deepen the conversation. This
00:24:45
is where you show somebody that you're active listening. you're curious and you're open and you're trying to
00:24:51
understand them. If you look at empathy research, we typically think that we can
00:24:57
understand our significant other or different people at a much higher level than we actually do. For a stranger,
00:25:03
it's called it's called empathy accuracy. For a stranger, your ability to understand their headsp space is like
00:25:09
20%. For a friend, somebody close to you, it's like 30. For your significant other,
00:25:17
it's no higher than 40%. Which means that despite you thinking that you know
00:25:22
what she's thinking, you got a four out of 10 chance of being right. And if that
00:25:28
conversation gets emotional, that 40% can go down as low as 15 because you start to pull in to be like, I I'm I'm
00:25:35
guarding myself here. I'm guarding my ego. When your ego is on the line, your ears go offline because you stop hearing
00:25:41
what she's having to say and you start protecting yourself in terms of what you're trying to do. So your ability to
00:25:47
be empathetic when things are hard becomes harder and you have to be very
00:25:52
mindful of that. Let's say you come home from early morning workout and your spouse says, "Hey Stephen, uh, how was
00:25:59
it?" And you say, "That's pretty tough." There's a lot that you can do with that. This is what she could do. She could say
00:26:05
nothing. So now maybe you understand that maybe she doesn't want to talk about this or she's not interested in it. That's one. The second thing she
00:26:11
could say to you would be like, "Well, sweetheart, that's why you look the way you do." She has now made the
00:26:18
assumption, right, her her empathy accuracy that she knows what you meant by the word tough. And so if she says to
00:26:24
you, "Well, that's how you look and that's not what you meant." Now you feel that there's a separation between what you're hoping she would pick up on and
00:26:30
what you actually said. The third thing she could say would be like, "What do you mean by tough?" Because the
00:26:36
ambiguity of that is the word tough. Who knows what that means? It could be a lot of different things. She's now showing you, "I'm into you. I'm tuning in." In
00:26:43
the power of something like that, when you talk about deepening relationships and increasing that connection, that's
00:26:49
how it happens. The same thing with your non-verbal behavior, right? You look at non-verbal behavior, 66% of of what we
00:26:56
give is non-verbal. And so if I through the course of my conversation with you, if all of a sudden we're talking and
00:27:01
you're just like folding my arms. So folding your arms could be a sign of
00:27:07
just you're folding your arms. It could be a sign of you not liking my question if you roll your eyes. So if I see that
00:27:13
and it matters to me, then I need to say something to the effect of it seems like
00:27:19
versus I think because I think is the pronoun saying it's about me and it's just like I don't care what you think.
00:27:24
It seems like what you just did maybe was because you didn't like what I had to say because I saw you cross your arms
00:27:30
and roll your eyes. Do I have that right? So now you have a choice where you can either say you yes
00:27:38
you got that right for these reasons or no I just followed him because I was comfortable and you know whatever the
00:27:43
case may be but it is a matter if I see you and there and it's and it's in harmony with the conversation that we
00:27:50
were having that seems like it's a you know something that shows that it could be
00:27:55
potentially a problem. I need to ask about it. you and I having a conversation right now and you folding your arms isn't going to be like a red
00:28:02
flag that I'm like, "Oh, I just saw you folded your arms when I said that." But if it's something that there's some emotionate around that and it's
00:28:07
important and I'm trying to express something to you and I see you roll your eyes or cross your arms. Hey, hey,
00:28:13
Stephen, I noticed when I brought up this thing about our family, um, you kind of leaned back and crossed your arms and rolled your eyes. It seems like
00:28:20
you didn't approve of that. Is is that Do I have that right? So, now it's on you to explain that or not. On this
00:28:25
point of body language, um, as someone that sits here and I guess interviews people for like, you know, four or five
00:28:32
hours at a time sometimes, over the last 5 years, I have come to learn certain body language um, patterns
00:28:39
in my guests. Okay. One of the most obvious ones is when I ask the guest a question that is causing
00:28:46
them some potential discomfort in some way. And when I say discomfort, I should probably define that as
00:28:52
maybe it's a difficult question for whatever reason. Sure. What I tend to see is I tend to see them
00:28:58
cross their arms. Okay. That's like a really consistent pattern. It's almost like a it's almost as if they're telling me that this is a little
00:29:04
bit difficult and it's it holds to be true. Do you ask them? I noticed when you crossed your arms,
00:29:10
you know, when I asked you that question, is it something with this question that bothered you or do you just let it go? I let it go, but it but it's they've
00:29:16
already told me. Okay. So, I've already I don't need to ask them because I I know I now know that there's something there where
00:29:22
there's emotion. Sure. It's kind of the way that I I see it. It's what it is. More than likely, it's what it is. And I think there's power to
00:29:28
that because your perception, right? So, it's you bring this back like your pattern recognition of all the guests
00:29:35
that you've done and the association or the the connection of that in terms of the question that you ask and they cross
00:29:41
their arms. Like, that's where that comes from. That's where that all of a sudden that thing where you're just like, I feel it, but I don't really know it. It's just like you don't know that
00:29:47
to be the case because it could be a number of different things but because of the pattern recognition you see it all the time that gives you the chance
00:29:53
of saying this is there's some emotion here. So either engage it or tread lightly depending on which way you want
00:29:58
to go both. Yeah. And that's what happens. So instead of saying like you know why why did you cross your arms? I will ask them
00:30:04
potentially how how that memory makes them feel or how they they feel about that. And and that tends to be it's just it's so
00:30:10
you know because people always talk you know they say does body language matter does it count for anything? Can you interpret someone's body language to
00:30:16
understand if they're telling you the truth? Is any of this stuff true in your in your view? No.
00:30:23
You should you should look at body language because it it it it is a language in terms of what somebody is is
00:30:28
showing you, you look at body language and if you see something that is a change, just like the cross in your
00:30:35
arms, then you need to be curious about it. So, it's really about a change in state. It's a change of it's a change of what
00:30:41
somebody's doing and the timing of that. So you just said like when I ask something that is personal or emotional,
00:30:47
they'll talk about it. They'll cross their arms because maybe it's just now like the psychological thing where I want to guard myself a little bit. Maybe
00:30:53
I want to kind of close up a little bit. Who knows? But if it's something where you're just like, I noticed it and you
00:30:59
don't need to use it. Like you could ask them if you wanted to, but you're just like, oh, they already they already told me, so I don't need it. But for anybody
00:31:06
else, if you see that and you're talking and somebody crosses their arms, don't just assume that's what it is. Because
00:31:12
if you assume and you're wrong, you're going down the wrong track.
00:31:17
And so throughout this framework for having hard conversations, we've covered the P which is stick your purpose, the L
00:31:25
the which is listen, A which is to ask. Ask. Is there anything else in the framework?
00:31:31
The N which is the next steps. So
00:31:37
to have a plan means to understand all of these different things and the way that you approach that. And the next
00:31:42
steps is how do you want to resolve this? Like what's the end goal with this? Is there anything that I can do
00:31:49
that we can you know further our relationship where both you and I can can be in alignment.
00:31:54
Do you ask them or do you propose? I would always ask them if I'm engaged. Right. So perhaps let's go back to the
00:32:00
the conversation that you may have with you know this this individual. or you're just like this person's a narcissist and so forth. If you're engaging them and
00:32:08
you're the one who wants to really have this conversation and you're hoping that you can find some type of resolution,
00:32:14
you have to ask if there's resolution with that. So something to the effect of, do you think that you and I can find
00:32:19
an amicical way forward where when I when you and I engage, you know, we can really enjoy each other's time and and
00:32:25
this thing not go bad. Like do you see that in our future at all? Yes or no? And then it's either yes. Okay. What
00:32:31
does that look like for us? Like how do we have that? because I am I'm having this conversation with you because my relationship with you matters, but there
00:32:38
are things that happen within that are that are frustrating and that cause me not to really want to engage. I do want
00:32:44
to find a way to do that because that is most important to me. How best do we do that? There is no magic bullet by which
00:32:50
makes everything every conversation go perfect. There's none. You are you are part of that conversation. The other
00:32:56
person is part of that conversation. You have your perspective. They have their perspective. You have what you think is
00:33:02
right or or or think is fair. Fairness is subjective because what you think is
00:33:08
fair is just means what you think is fair. And so the hardest part is to walk away and
00:33:13
feeling like you should there should have done more you can do. The power becomes knowing how to address that. And
00:33:20
if it doesn't go right then you walk away and be like you know what it just didn't go right and I'm okay with that. What if they start insulting you in the
00:33:26
conversation? Okay. What's your purpose of being in the conversation? I'm trying to get them to stop being so
00:33:32
rude to me when we're on the same bank of telephones at the call center. So, it is a matter of if she's being
00:33:40
rude to you, it's it's addressing that at the moment, right? You know, I I noticed that we're having this conversation that you're being really
00:33:47
aggressive, really rude, and really condescending. So, you cool it out. Yeah. Be very specific in terms of what
00:33:53
it is. Like, you know, if she if she calls you and she uses, you know, she calls you a name or whatever the case may be, like, you know what, you're
00:33:59
being rude. and she's just like, "What did I do?" And you're like, "You're just being rude." That's unhelpful. Like, give her the context by which you feel
00:34:04
that she's being rude. Because maybe she does something outside of a name where you're like, "You're being rude." And
00:34:10
maybe to her that's not rudeness. Maybe it's her directness, right? But if she's like, "You know what? You're Stephen,
00:34:16
you're just an asshole." Or whatever the case may be. And I would say, "Hey, it seems like as of right now, like, you know, you're very condescending. You've
00:34:22
called me a name to include an Can you explain to me specifically right now why that is?" and make her back it
00:34:29
up. Make her explain to you what it is that is there something about is there something about me you don't like? Is
00:34:34
there something about my my work ethic that you don't like or maybe the way that I'm doing this? You've been here longer than me. So is perhaps there's
00:34:41
something else that I'm doing or not doing that you think is wrong because I
00:34:46
am not understanding your anger and your venom and your need to insult me and I
00:34:52
would really try to understand what that is. So, you're having a very direct conversation with her, very specific to
00:34:57
what she's saying. It does not mean that that's going to fix it. She could just be an And it's one of those
00:35:04
things where you have to be like, I am going to address this. I'm not going to return in kind. I don't have to turn
00:35:11
into that person as well. I can walk away from that conversation and be like, you know what, I handled that the best I
00:35:16
could. Doesn't mean it's going to fix it. Are there any tactics that interrogators are taught or that you
00:35:22
teach interrogators for keeping your emotions in check? Because, you know, we we go into those conversations, someone
00:35:28
calls you an you your cortisol starts spiking, you get into your amydala, you get stressed, you get
00:35:34
emotional, you end up calling them an back. But is there I don't know, is there breath work? What what do interrogators get taught
00:35:39
in the heat of the moment? At the at that time, you have no time to do breath work. This is real time stuff in terms
00:35:46
of what you're trying to do. If you go in and you understand your purpose and again I don't mean to go back to the plan but what happens is you become you
00:35:53
can be pulled out very quickly and all of a sudden if you are trying to get information from somebody and one of
00:36:00
their strategies because they maybe don't want to give you information one of their strategies is to insult you and
00:36:06
now you're insulting them back one you're not going to get anything two you fell under their strategy so what you
00:36:12
have to do is you have to address that I am something to the effect of I see that when I asked you matter and all of a
00:36:18
sudden like it seems like there's a change in our relationship to where now you're being really aggressive. Why is that?
00:36:23
So, you're continually calling it out. Yes. Because I am asking you to back up your emotions. If if because if it's if
00:36:31
it's BS, if you're just doing that because you're trying to hide the ball someplace else, I'm going to call you
00:36:36
out on it. It's also showing me that I am not afraid to confront this type of
00:36:41
behavior and I'm seeing it and I am I am really trying to engage with you in a very amicable genuine way and if you are
00:36:49
going to treat me a certain way I am going to understand what that is. You're also showing that you're not doing it in kind is part of this showing that you're
00:36:56
strong. It's less about being strong and more about being competent and confident
00:37:02
in what you're doing. Because if you allow in anybody, not just an interrogation
00:37:08
room, in in any in any conversation, if you lose your cool, you lose control.
00:37:15
You have to be mindful of that. I was overseeing a an internal affairs interview uh and I was going to go in
00:37:21
and talk to this person at the end. I was thinking about doing a polygraph with them, but before that was going to happen, the the case agent, the person
00:37:28
who had the investigation was talking to the subject. It was a road rage incident where this uh agent uh had been accused
00:37:36
of road rage and pulling his gun out on a civilian. So, this was the conversation that they were that they
00:37:42
were having. And I'm listening to this in an interview room, right? In in terms of like a two-way two-way mirror. And
00:37:49
the subject is very aggressive. He's very angry and he's very angry to the
00:37:54
point of like he's like, "I don't know why you don't believe me with this. I keep telling you these things and you
00:38:00
keep asking me the same questions. I think this is a bunch of BS." The investigator comes back and he's just
00:38:05
like, "Because I think you're a liar and you're not telling me the truth in terms of what it is and you're causing us to
00:38:12
be in this room a lot longer and this is a problem." So now they are both yelling at each other, like yelling at each
00:38:19
other. And it was one of these things where I'm watching this unfold. And it
00:38:25
wasn't the subject's job to maintain his composure. It was the investigators because his goal is not to belittle this
00:38:32
other agent. His goal was to find out did this or did this not happen. And he
00:38:37
lost sight of that. And he came out of the room to me and he's like, "What do you think?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not going to polygraph him. I mean, this
00:38:43
guy's so emotional right now. Like that's not going to happen." And he goes, "You know what? This guy's just an anyway." And I'm like, I don't
00:38:49
think he's the in the room. The other guy was the in the room because he allowed himself to get pulled
00:38:54
out of what he should have been doing because now he wanted to have the game of who's the bigger who's the bigger
00:39:00
jerk in the room, you can do it. And again, if you want to burn that bridge, burn it. But if if you want to maintain
00:39:08
a relationship or you want to maintain your profession or you are trying to get to some resolution, you cannot lose your
00:39:15
cool. I guess that's what it comes down to is most of the time we're not clear on the goal going into the conversation. So we we have nothing to be anchored to.
00:39:23
So just it's we it's getting into the washing machine. Absolutely what it is. We just spin around and around and
00:39:29
around and absolutely walk away with a nice relationship. And the power really comes from if this
00:39:34
person is insulting you and they're angry and they're doing these things and you're sitting there and you're asking good questions, you're keeping your
00:39:40
composure. There is a lot of power with that. And I mean power in a in a way that shows like I'm in I'm in control of
00:39:46
myself. I am well aware of what's going on as this relationship and this
00:39:52
conversation is is happening. Uh I am not going to fall into this because this matters to me in terms of this other
00:39:58
thing. I've heard you say that you think people suffer from me me syndrome. What does
00:40:04
that mean? So the me me syndrome is everything
00:40:11
everything is about me right I mean it seems obvious with that but like you can even look at things from like a cultural
00:40:17
perspective you can look at like here you know in in the US in western civilizations like we are primarily like
00:40:23
a dignity culture where we are it's all about us right it's all about that internal that internal feeling that that
00:40:28
we have and so everything is predicated on our job our success the things that
00:40:34
we do the external world doesn't really matter in terms of our our success or failure. So a lot of it is what is in
00:40:41
your headsp space and how do you manage that because the problem that I see and
00:40:48
what I think comes with in communication is
00:40:54
we do a lot of self-reflection.
00:40:59
We rarely do a lot of outward reflection on the other person. Some of the best negotiators there will spend more than
00:41:04
half of their time thinking about somebody else. So, a very personal story. Um, when I was 21, my father
00:41:12
passed away and he had been battling cancer for for three years. And so, when he passed away, uh, I have four siblings
00:41:19
and my mom was there. So, when he passed away, he passed away at home and all five of us were there.
00:41:25
Several years later, uh, I'm having this conversation on the day that my dad died about the day that my dad died. I'm
00:41:31
having this with my my sister and my three younger brothers and we're talking about where we were and so forth. And my
00:41:37
sister says, "Yeah, I I can't watch the Simpsons without thinking of of dad."
00:41:42
And I said, "What do you what do you mean?" She's like, "Well, the the the TV was there and the Simpsons were on." And
00:41:48
she's like, "I always just remember that." And I was like, "There's a there's a TV in the room?" She's like,
00:41:53
"You don't remember a TV being in the room?" And I'm like, "I have absolutely not. I have no idea that there's a TV in
00:41:59
the room. I didn't code it. that wasn't the thing that was important. Her perspective and the way that she saw
00:42:05
that moment affected her differently than everybody else in that room. And so to go back to the me me, when you fail
00:42:12
to take in consideration that other people have other experiences based on
00:42:18
how they pick up the world, how they do things in the world, and you think that
00:42:24
it's just about you, you're you are going to have a really hard time having a deep, honest, connective relationship
00:42:31
with somebody if it's just about you. You can do it. And a lot of people do it. you know, they're looking for that
00:42:37
that way to, you know, make people drawn to them and make people connect to them and and that's fine. But if you are
00:42:44
trying to I guess Stephen, if you just want to be like a genuine person and you want to
00:42:50
have a relationship, don't make it about you. I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't firmed up the title yet,
00:42:57
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sure you visit the learn tab to discover how you can become one better than the rest. I was thinking this earlier. I was
00:43:57
thinking one of the things in the p this podcast that I've learned is if I um if I want to increase the probability that
00:44:02
someone opens up and tells me something, one of the things I do is I share myself. Yeah.
00:44:07
So, you know, I might be asking someone about their childhood and it's quite clear to me now that one of the ways,
00:44:12
especially if they end up crossing their arms and get uncomfortable. Yeah. Is just to pause for a second and share my own childhood. Yeah.
00:44:18
So, if I've identified that one of your values is, I don't know, you want to be a good family man. Might you mention that you're a family man yourself as a
00:44:24
way to build a bridge? So if it's honest, so so that's a great question, but this becomes a thing where you have
00:44:31
to look at things if you were trying to influence or manipulate somebody. If it's honest and it fits within that
00:44:37
conversation at that moment because this is what I based on our conversation I think this person needs to hear, then
00:44:42
sure, if it's real. If it's not, if I'm lying to him because I'm trying to say,
00:44:48
"Well, I'm a family man. You're a family man. Like we're we're good." Now you're now you're manipulating the person and
00:44:54
that's a whole different conversation. So to go back to what you said, if if I understand this guy's values and I
00:45:00
understand that there is a sense of let's say a sense of honesty, maybe
00:45:07
there's a part of this person that's also honest or there's also a sense of he wants to be
00:45:13
I don't know, he wants his kids to see him as a as a as a man of integrity, right? Let's just say that. So maybe
00:45:20
maybe that starts to become a conversation that we have as it relates to um you know I can only imagine you
00:45:26
know the difficulty that this has with you as as you've told me you know you're a family man. I'm not going to say
00:45:31
you're a family man. I'm going to say as you told me you're a family man. And one of the things that you said about being a family man was how important is your
00:45:38
kids to to kind of like lead by your mo your model like your role model aspects of that by honesty and openness and and
00:45:46
and those type of things. So do you hear where I'm going? So I'm trending in the direction by which that I am trying to
00:45:52
bring online still his father but a different value under what it means to be a father because I don't want to talk
00:45:57
about being present because that's probably going to go away. But if he is trying to teach his kids to own your
00:46:04
mistakes then maybe that's the direction I go. But how am I going to get that? I'm gonna get that because I'm going to
00:46:10
start off my conversation with him in a very honest, genuine way that I'm going to try to understand who is this person
00:46:15
across from me. And what's the difference between manipulation and influence?
00:46:21
Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction at a certain time
00:46:27
that's beneficial for both you and them. That's influence. Got it? Mhm.
00:46:34
Manipulation is you nudging a person in a specific direction because it's good for you. It's not good
00:46:41
for them. And so you'll lie. You'll you'll do whatever you need to do to to close a deal to get them to do something
00:46:47
to give them to give you something. That's manipulation because it's often one of those things that it has negative
00:46:53
consequences to it in terms of the person who did it. You know, maybe they never know, but you manipulated them,
00:46:58
which is interrogations. No, because this guy's going to go he's going to get life in jail if he admits that he killed
00:47:04
this child. So, I'm that's not in his interests, but it's in mine. So, I'm going to manipulate him to give me the
00:47:10
secrets. If that's what you want to do and that's the direction you think you need to do, then by all means, you can do it. And
00:47:15
here in the US, it is legal that you can lie to subjects. But,
00:47:21
so you're saying lying is the the the moment where it becomes manipulation. Yes. that becomes the shortcut and that
00:47:26
becomes a way not just within the interrogation room like I think what becomes important and I've seen this come up a lot people are all about like
00:47:32
influence like you hear that come up quite a bit if you want to influence somebody this is how you do it you're honest with them you're clear and you're
00:47:39
transparent because influence is about how do I feel about you not about all the things that you're doing at that
00:47:45
moment because if I don't if trusted is isn't even on the table if I don't trust you to begin with or I think that to go
00:47:51
back to what you had said there's this pattern recognition where I'm like I just think there's something wrong with this. You're not going to be able to
00:47:56
influence me if I am honest with you in everything that I do because that's how I carry myself. Not only does it lower
00:48:04
your cognitive load because you're not lying to somebody else, but it underscores who you stand for and who
00:48:09
you are as a person. And with that, people are going to see that and say, you know what, Stephen's very
00:48:14
transparent. He said this was a good deal and I believe that for these reasons. It's a matter of you being
00:48:20
honest with that. I I always question now like because I see it a lot and it came up in the in the questions that
00:48:25
that I was talking to your team about. It's like why does everybody want to influence somebody? Like why why do they
00:48:32
what what is that? Do you know like why does it come up all the time? Because
00:48:37
what are people trying to accomplish? They want to accomplish something. They have a goal for who? For themselves,
00:48:43
right? So is that is that influence?
00:48:48
But it gets the job done for some for some people. Sure it does. I'm thinking about that. Is it Cariegi?
00:48:54
What's that book? It's probably behind me somewhere called influence and it talks about the this five pillars of
00:49:00
influence things like scarity. So it's uh Robert Chaldini. Oh yeah. We teach that, right? It's one of those
00:49:05
where you can understand why influence works, the different strategies of influence, like what they all stand for
00:49:11
and when they fit within the within the conversation. You can do it. I do it.
00:49:17
But I can I can tell you, Stephen, being a being a communication specialist, I
00:49:22
don't spend my day walking around trying to influence people. I will be honest with people. I will be transparent. I
00:49:29
will answer their questions with the best information that I have. And if people are inspired by that and and and
00:49:35
that causes somebody to be influenced by the things that I said, that's that's
00:49:40
what I want, right? And I brought this up earlier, but the the training academy that that you know that I instruct with,
00:49:46
it is all about openness. It's all about honesty. It's all about trying to help people based on why they've come to us.
00:49:53
And it's not about manipulating people to to come in and be a member. It's about why are you here and how can we
00:50:01
help you? And this is the best way we can do that. And that influences people and that inspires people to to listen to
00:50:08
what you have to say. Why why is your podcast this successful? The first time you and I met, you said something that I
00:50:15
disagreed with. What was that? And it was you were talking about Flight Story and you were talking about the different things you you you know with
00:50:20
Flight Story and the success of the podcast and you said it's not because I'm a good interviewer. It's because
00:50:25
they're really good at marketing. You're a good interviewer because of the vulnerabilities that you do. Every time
00:50:31
I've been surprised on how vulnerable and open you are in terms of sharing with yourself like there's that story
00:50:37
arc in terms of how that connection is because of that you influence me not
00:50:43
because you're trying to not because your team reached out but because of the way you carried yourself in your podcast
00:50:49
and the questions that you ask and the vulnerability that you're showing. There is a level of trust that comes with
00:50:55
that. And so you in you weren't trying to influence you were being you. And there's a part of your self- congruence,
00:51:02
who you are, your ideal self, which is just like, this is just what I do, and my life's not perfect, and I'll share
00:51:07
the parts that are messy, and I'm trying to use this as a platform to help millions of people. That's a big deal.
00:51:15
And is this how you build trust with people or is trust a different or adjacent
00:51:20
point? So trust is about being vulnerable. Trust is about being open
00:51:28
and sharing a little bit about yourself. So truly, Stephen, the question becomes,
00:51:34
is what I've shared with you in good hands? Because if it's not, that's a problem,
00:51:40
right? Mhm. Let me ask you a question. Do you have a secret that maybe you've never told
00:51:45
anybody or you've told just one or two people? Yeah, you do. You got one in mind? Yeah. What is it?
00:51:52
I can't. There's millions of people listening. Okay. But but if these millions of people weren't watching, would you tell
00:51:57
me? Yeah. Okay. So, the reason that you're not
00:52:03
telling me or in front of these millions of people is why why are you not why are
00:52:08
you not telling us your secret? Um because of consequence. Okay.
00:52:13
Some someone's going to clip it. Someone's going to put it on the internet. Someone's me up. There's a reason for it, right? There's
00:52:18
a reason that you're not trusting in terms of what it was. Maybe you trust me just because of the the relationship
00:52:23
that we've built to this point. Um, but there's probably other things that you wouldn't trust me with. When you talk
00:52:29
about trust, I if you look at concentric rings, you know, in terms of the the trust around you, the the center ring
00:52:36
should be selfrust. It should be you. You should be able to trust yourself more than you trust anybody else. If you
00:52:42
don't, you probably need to do a little bit of work, right? What does that mean in reality of me trusting myself? Do you trust that you
00:52:49
will do the things that you want to do or you ought to do or do do you keep yourself in that direction? Do you keep
00:52:55
yourself accountable? Right? That becomes this thing where can you make decisions? Are you a person like I don't make any decisions. I let
00:53:01
somebody else make decisions or I run everything by everybody else because I don't trust myself to make the right decision. Then you have to work on your
00:53:07
decision-m because you have to find a way to build your trust up. Mhm. Outside of that initial ring, it's it
00:53:14
should be a ring of a handful of people that have unconditional trust, right? And these
00:53:20
are the people that no matter what, like you've given them that trust. You you believe in them. And it should be a
00:53:27
small circle. And this is where I think people go wrong. They're like, "Ah, you know, I I I share everything with
00:53:32
people." Then they then they're crushed when one of those people that they've given unconditional trust with break it.
00:53:40
That's a problem. I have probably, you know, my siblings are all really close to me, so I have them. There's
00:53:45
four of them. Um, outside of that, I have my, you know, I have my wife and a select few friends, you know, that I
00:53:52
know that if I call, they're like, "Let's we're good." Um, outside of that,
00:53:57
you should, everybody else should be conditional trust. People should earn your trust, right? They should be
00:54:03
honored to have it. Like, don't give it away for free. And if you have somebody's trust, you should respect
00:54:08
that. if they've given that to you be but I think and I've seen it I people give away trust way too much because the
00:54:15
person will be amazing in this one spot and all of a sudden they get the halo effect and they're like well they're
00:54:20
great here they must be great here it's this it's this arc of they're awesome everywhere and so I'm going to trust
00:54:27
them with these other things then when again they break it they violate it
00:54:36
the way you feel is just the this this violation of you know somebody took what you gave them and just destroyed it.
00:54:43
It's hard to come back from that. It's hard to once you re once you lose trust like if you lose somebody's trust it's
00:54:49
really really hard to get back. Is there anything you can do to get back, do you think? What I know that you can do, it doesn't
00:54:55
always work. You have to be accountable for why you lost it. Whatever that is,
00:55:01
very specific. It's going to take time and a lot of
00:55:06
consistency to consistency meaning that you show them consistently time and time again that you are a person that you
00:55:13
know can be trusted. On um on leadership principles, something I've heard you talk about as
00:55:19
well. Um what what do you think are the most important principles as it relates to leadership? Because we talked about
00:55:24
trust there and other things around communication and all these things. Is there is there anything we haven't covered as it relates to being a great
00:55:31
leader in your perspective? Somebody who's calm under chaos. That would be my definition of a leader.
00:55:38
However, and I say that because leadership is a feeling, Stephen, how do you make these people feel as it relates
00:55:45
to my qualities as a leader? Do I do the things that register with you as
00:55:51
leadership? As I can tell you when I was on a a SWAT team, which is the special weapons and tactics, this is where I
00:55:57
learned the true essence of leadership because I had some amazing commanders
00:56:03
and and team leaders on that team were under high stress, under a stress like
00:56:08
that. If you have people around you that are keeping their composure, that's leadership.
00:56:14
One of the elements there, I guess, as when you're in the SWAT as well, is dealing with huge amounts of uncertainty
00:56:19
when pressure is on. Sure. When your life's at risk. I was reading about a study, which I think you mentioned some
00:56:26
time ago, where they look at three groups of people doing the same exam and would were sort of trying to ascertain
00:56:32
how people make decisions with different degrees of certainty and information. Yeah. What the the study showed was
00:56:40
there were a group of students that you know were taking a test in college and
00:56:45
they were told that you know they had either passed or failed or they had no idea whether they passed or failed. But
00:56:51
prior to that they were asked if they would you know take a vacation and the people who passed and the people who
00:56:56
failed there was a higher percentage of them who chose to take a vacation after getting news that they had either passed
00:57:04
college or failed college. the group that didn't know, there was a third group that was just like,
00:57:10
I'm un I'm unsure. Weren't able to really make a decision and and so what the what So, just to be clear then on that third
00:57:15
group, they didn't have their exam results back. So, they didn't take the action to book. They were told they were told that there
00:57:22
was some malfunction in ability to score their test and they would get their results at a later time.
00:57:27
Okay. And so then they were asked to, you know, if they would also via a vacation. And a farther fewer
00:57:34
percentage, I don't remember what it was, but a farther uh a much less percentage of them would take it than
00:57:39
the people who both passed because I think there's like half the people who passed or or were told they passed like
00:57:45
took the bought the vacation package. It was like a vacation trip to Hawaii. Around the same percentage, I believe,
00:57:51
who failed the exam bought the vacation trip. But the people who couldn't decide
00:57:56
just they didn't have the cognitive bandwidth to to really make a decision. So the ambiguity of not knowing really
00:58:04
lessens our cognitive ability to to go in a certain direction. And so when we don't know where to go, we often don't
00:58:10
go anywhere. That is a hallmark of great leaders that they're able to decide even when there's
00:58:16
very low certainty. Sure. I would think that would come with, you know, the territory. I think
00:58:21
if you're if you're only a leader when it's calm, then you're not really a leader. You're somebody with a higher
00:58:27
salary and a title. Like leadership really shows up in those type of circumstances when when things are
00:58:32
uncertain. And so, you know, having the ability to
00:58:39
manage things when not all the information is there and doing the best you can with it because, you know, often
00:58:45
times the the best decision to make is the right one and the worst one is to not make a decision at all. And so, if
00:58:51
you have those type of leaders who just can't think through that problem, then that's not a leader. I remember when I
00:58:56
spoke in Sa Paulo many years ago, Barack Obama was on stage and he said that as president like when he went and got bin
00:59:02
Laden in that compound in Pakistan that they didn't know if Bin Laden was there, they'd never visually properly ided him.
00:59:08
So he had to make that decision to risk American lives with, as he said, 51% certainty. Yeah.
00:59:13
Or very low certainty. And he says that's the the thing about being the president of the United States. You make huge calls with very little
00:59:20
certainty. Yeah. And I've always thought about that in in terms of my day-to-day life. And it al
00:59:25
has made me conclude that the most successful people that I've met do have that ability to be low certainty and
00:59:31
make big calls. Yeah. Um with the peace of mind that they've made that call with the best available information. And then the sort of
00:59:37
inverse of that is some people listening right now with even small decisions are trying to
00:59:43
get to 100% certainty when obviously 100% certainty only exists in hindsight, you know. And that that's that's a
00:59:50
really good that's a really good point. I think that's a lot of people struggle with that when it comes to just just to own your decision like like own it like
00:59:57
whatever you choose to do. If you if you make it not under high
01:00:02
emotion and you do the best you can with the information that you have at that time make a decision like you know as
01:00:08
they say it's you know if you make the wrong decision then it's experience if you make the right decision then it's confirmation.
01:00:14
I think about this a lot. I think about um how maybe everyone listening could have a conversation with themselves
01:00:19
about their own relationship with uncertainty. Like how good are you dealing with situations where you don't have much information? Yeah.
01:00:25
Um are you the type of person that's able to make a decision and not like sit sit in paralysis? And many people that
01:00:32
come up to me in the street and say they want a new life or a new this or a new that are um are choosing like the
01:00:37
certain misery of their current life versus the uncertainty they see as they look out into the void of like quitting
01:00:44
the job and going and playing violin in Peru or something. And um you know you you you bring up you
01:00:51
bring up something that um so in one of our one of our recent classes that we taught this month, we talked about
01:00:57
owning decision, right? And I shared the story with the community and it it had a pretty profound effect. And so I was uh
01:01:05
as a police officer, I was on patrol. It was late at night. I'm driving down just this two-lane road kind of in the middle
01:01:12
of nowhere. And I pull over to the side and I'm just kind of like watching from a from an angle, just people driving up
01:01:19
and down this road. This car flies by, goes through a stop sign, doesn't stop. It's a very nice luxury sedan. So, I
01:01:26
turn on my lights, pull him over, and I said, "How you doing?" And he's like, "I'm all right." I could tell this guy's
01:01:32
just like, he's flat drunk. And I shine my light into his passenger. Uh, and he's just like, he's passed out. Like,
01:01:39
he has he has he's not even coherent that I'm probably standing there. So, I get his driver's license and I'm like,
01:01:44
"Look, you're pretty bad off." And he's like, "Are you going to call my dad?" And I said, "Why would I do that?" He
01:01:50
goes, "Man," he goes, "This is car." He's like, "He's going to be upset." I said, "All right." So, I go back to my
01:01:56
patrol car and I I I look at this kid in terms of he's had no priors. He's 16. He has no prior driving record. So, I'm
01:02:03
making So, what's my decision now? I can call for a DWI unit to come and and give
01:02:09
this guy a fuel sobriety test and he's going to fail just because I could tell how drunk he was. Or I could call his
01:02:15
dad. Now, I have to make a decision because I have that type of discretion. So, I have to think, do I take this kid
01:02:21
to do I have this kid go to jail and tow his dad's car, or do I call his dad and hope that's the
01:02:28
right decision because his dad will find a way to make sure this doesn't happen again. So, I had our dispatch give me
01:02:34
his phone, his parents' phone number, and I called his dad. It's 11:00 at night, and his mom answers, and I'm
01:02:40
like, you know, um, you know, Mrs. Smith, this is, you know, Deputy O'Neal. Um, I'm out here with your son, Jacob.
01:02:49
Oh my god, how is he? I'm like, he's fine. And I'm like, I think he's been drinking too much and I want to know if you want to come get him. She's like,
01:02:56
can you talk to my husband? I said, sure. He gets on the phone. Same thing. And he's like, thank you. I will make
01:03:01
sure this doesn't happen again. I will be there in 5 minutes. I have no idea what happens at the end of this. But I
01:03:06
made that decision at that time. The reason I'm sharing this is because when I told that story in our community, I
01:03:13
asked everybody on the platform because it's very engaging. And I said, and Evie asked this question actually, and she
01:03:18
said, "How many of you would do the same thing Desmond did?" Probably should give context there that Evie is your wife. Evie is my wife. I'm sorry.
01:03:24
Pumporus. Yes. A lot of people put in the comments like, "I would do the same thing. Good for him. The kids shouldn't go to jail."
01:03:29
And Evie was just like, "I would do the exact opposite thing. I would have taken him to jail. I would have towed the car
01:03:36
because I don't know if the consequences of what his dad would do is is going to outweigh the fact that he's going to go
01:03:42
to jail." And she's like, "What if I let him go and he does the same thing next week because he's not, you know, he
01:03:49
doesn't care what his father thinks?" And she's like, "That to me was a decision that I would have made." So I
01:03:54
bring that up for this purpose. We both made a completely different decision. I
01:03:59
made it for the reasons I did. She made it for the reasons that she did metaphorically. Mine was true. This is
01:04:05
just what she said she would have done. The point was is that we both owned it.
01:04:11
And a lot of times I think what happens going back to what you just said is people are so afraid to make a decision
01:04:18
for a number of different reasons and so they just choose not to. Now again people could look at this you know your
01:04:24
audience could look at this and be like he should have taken him to jail. I understand all of that. I had the discretion and that's the decision I
01:04:30
made and I would make that decision every time. But it's it's it's less about that story and more about when you
01:04:36
decide on something with the information you have at the moment. Do you own it or do you as you said do you look back
01:04:42
later and have hindsight bias and be like ah I should have known you can't do that so many people try to live their
01:04:48
life in reverse like that and looking back it's impossible it's impossible to know so I do think and kind of to expand
01:04:55
on what you said I do think when it talks about owning your decisions and and being being thoughtful as it relates
01:05:02
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01:05:10
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of that research you've done on communication. Is there anything we haven't talked
01:07:32
about today that really surprised you in the research that really caused a paradigm shift in what you thought
01:07:38
communication was and now what you think it is? Yeah, the research showed that
01:07:43
your ability to build rapport with a person is what gives you the most power in
01:07:51
terms of that connection. And different people, you know, and how do you build rapport? Most people think that this is one of
01:07:57
those things where you're just you're just you're overly kind, you're very complimentary,
01:08:03
uh you're talking about the weather, and now we've built rapport and then we're good. It's not how you build rapport. re
01:08:09
building rapport is understanding values in terms of a person. Rapport is understanding, you know, a person's
01:08:14
presence and what they're needing from you. If I'm paying attention to you and I'm engaged with you and I'm making you
01:08:21
feel seen and heard and understood and by proxy, by the reciprocity of doing
01:08:27
that, you do the same thing for me. That's rapport. When it comes into
01:08:34
building rapport with somebody, read the room. If I came in and I have a list of
01:08:40
questions and I see you that you're there's some emotional state that you're showing. If I want to connect with you,
01:08:48
I ask about that. I need to put my stuff aside before I can have the conversation I want to have. I probably have to have
01:08:54
the conversation you want to have. And at that moment, it may be understanding what is going on in your headsp space. I
01:09:00
can say, "Hey, Stephen, you know, I'm Desmond O'Neal. You know, I know you were brought in this morning for for
01:09:05
these reasons. It's obvious to me right now that you seem really upset. Can you tell me what's going on right now?" And
01:09:12
you could say, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm super scared. I've never been in jail before. My mom's sick
01:09:18
at home and I don't know if there's anybody to take her to her. Now, how much information now do I have, by the way, that I can connect with you?
01:09:23
Because if you tell me, I am freaked out. I don't know what's going on. What do I now do? Do I go back to be like,
01:09:29
"Well, that sucks." And go back to my list of questions. Or do I say, "How best can I help you with that?"
01:09:35
And this builds rapport. Yes. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing empathy. I'm listening to you.
01:09:40
I'm I'm giving you what you want. I'm lessening your ambiguity. I'm orienting you in terms of the direction that
01:09:46
you're asking me to take you. You're asking me for clarity in terms of what's going to happen. I'm going to answer that. I'm showing them that I am paying
01:09:53
attention to them. I'm being authentic. I'm going to follow up with the things that I do cuz I'm going to come back later and be like, "Hey, we checked on
01:09:59
your mom. She was good. We pulled your aunt in. Your aunt came and took care of her. If anything else comes up, let me know. I do have some questions that I
01:10:05
need to get to. This is important part of the investigation, but I I can only imagine that there's a lot on your mind
01:10:10
and if things come up through our conversation, please please ask me." That's rapport. In those situations, I'm hearing many of
01:10:17
the things that I read in that book, Influence by Robert Caldini, Chaldini, Chaldini, I'm hearing reciprocity. Yep.
01:10:22
You've done them a favor. So now they're more likely to answer your questions. Reciprocity is
01:10:30
giving somebody something with with the the expectation that somewhere in the
01:10:35
future they will give you something else. It's not a transactional thing. It's not like the only reason I'm doing this is because I want something from
01:10:43
you in exchange. That's transaction. So So when you checked on that person's
01:10:49
mom, that was reciprocity. That was me following up with a commitment of saying that this is what
01:10:55
I'm going to do for you. You can do with it what you want. But you know that doing that is going to increase the probability that they
01:11:01
answer your questions. Knowing I do that regardless. I could have he could have said, "You know what?
01:11:06
I I appreciate you. Thank you for checking on my mom. Um I I want a
01:11:11
lawyer. I don't want to talk to you." You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to check on his mom. You know why? Because that's what I said I was going to do. You know why? Because that's my
01:11:18
self- congruence. That's what I do as a person. When I give somebody my word, I'm going to follow up with it. So, in a
01:11:23
situation like that, I will do those things because that's what he he's that's what I've told him I'm going to
01:11:28
do. Is there anything else on um on the point of having difficult conversations that we haven't covered in your mind?
01:11:34
Cuz I know there's loads of people that they want to get better at having those tricky conversations and also just dealing with a theme we see a lot is
01:11:41
like people very keen to deal with difficult people. Is there anything there that we haven't touched on? We've got the plan framework, but just just
01:11:49
want to check there's nothing we've missed. No, I just think it was I just think it was a plan framework. And it's not about making things complicated. It's actually
01:11:55
about, you know, there's there's things that you should take out, you know, when it comes to communication as opposed to
01:12:02
always adding things in. You know, it really becomes like extinction before acquisition. So, I can I can tell you
01:12:09
when it comes to better communication, there are three things that you should stop doing right now. One of them is to
01:12:15
stop trying to be right. One of them is to stop telling people you understand. And the third one is
01:12:22
stop giving people your unsolicited opinion. Now to break those down, stop stop trying to be right. And we talked
01:12:29
about that one a little bit. The the second one is stop telling people that you understand. This is what I mean by
01:12:35
that. You can understand you can understand a person's words. You will never understand their headsp space in
01:12:40
terms of the the specificity of that. And so what you will see is I if if
01:12:46
you're sharing a story like if you shared a personal story with me let's say you let's say your father had passed away and I'm like you know what Stephen
01:12:52
I completely understand um my dad passed away too when I was young so now we're connected I have just
01:13:01
I've just taken away that moment for you because I made it about me because I I thought that I
01:13:08
understood something that you had experienced in fact your experience of a death or your experience of your father
01:13:13
at the moment is going to be completely different than mine. But for me to tell you that I understand is is
01:13:19
shortsighted. My girlfriend tells me sometimes that she wants me to say that I understand.
01:13:25
And I think what she's saying is that maybe she wants to feel understood
01:13:31
and so she might be explaining how she feels and then if I say do you know I yeah know I do understand but do you?
01:13:39
Sometimes I get to the point where I I do understand what she's saying. You understand what she's saying, but do you understand how she truly feels?
01:13:45
No. Okay. But that becomes because I don't feel that. You don't feel it. But she just wants me to acknowledge. She wants you to acknowledge it. So the
01:13:50
difference is in terms of it was being genuine where you're like, look, I I really understand how you feel. You probably don't.
01:13:56
How do I make her feel understood in that regard then without telling her I understand?
01:14:01
To feel understood is to is to listen to her to be like look, you know, I it
01:14:06
sounds it sounds tough. sounds, you know, like this is something really on your mind. Like, and it kind of goes into our other thing. We're like, "Stop
01:14:12
giving people your opinion." You know, if she's if she's expressing things to you and she's sharing how she wants to feel, she's probably not looking for you
01:14:19
to tell her what to do unless she's asked you for that. The first thing that we always do, and it happens all the time, is like, "Let me tell you what I
01:14:25
think. Try to fix it without having all of the the emotions and the complexities of of
01:14:31
why it's not being done." And so to go back to with your girlfriend, it really is just a matter of trying to
01:14:36
understand, seeing where she's going with it, asking her, you know, if there ways that that, you know, we can we can
01:14:42
work to make it better or help you with this. But as Stephen, she's just like, I I want you to understand. I would just
01:14:47
tell her, I understand, just because that's what she's looking for. You're not going to have it in there. But if
01:14:52
you generally went to somebody and you're like, oh, I understand. That's what I'm asking you not to do. That's what you shouldn't do. You shouldn't
01:14:59
generally think that you truly understand another person because then you're going like you're convinced that you know and you're no longer curious in
01:15:04
terms of how they actually feel. And on that last point about giving
01:15:09
giving the opinion, a lot of time people, you know, when they're sharing something, they just want you to create
01:15:16
the space. Simon Synynic said to me, he goes, "Most of the time people just want you to sit in the mud with them." And
01:15:21
like I I naturally show up with like my toolbox to try and fix the situation. But a lot of the time, especially with my my girlfriend, maybe she just wants
01:15:27
me to listen. Most people do, right? It becomes like this identity headsp space
01:15:32
where people just are looking for the sounding board for you, for your girlfriend. Like you're the you're the guy, you're the person, and that's what
01:15:39
she comes to you for. That's your job in a lot of ways. And I don't mean that in a negative thing, but it's just one of those things where if that's what she
01:15:44
needs from you, then that's what you give her. And a lot of people just want as as as Simon Senk said where you said it like just sit in the mud with them
01:15:50
and that's what they're asking you. If she turns to you and say Stephen what would you do here then she's asking you
01:15:56
but if not then don't give it something I need to work on. Yeah we all do.
01:16:02
Yeah cuz you cuz you I don't know something about maybe the male brain but it's probably not just men.
01:16:08
Can I talk real quick just about our training community before we go? Is that okay with you? Yeah. because it is one of those where
01:16:14
like now uh what I spend all my time with is is I'm an instructor for Beyond
01:16:19
Bulletproof which is a training platform that that Evie and I that E and I host and it really comes down to three prongs
01:16:27
of how do people helping people think, helping people act, and helping people
01:16:32
leave with purpose. And I know we talked about those things, but the reason I bring that up is because there are so
01:16:37
many people, Stephen, that just as you had talked about, they're they're looking for they're looking for some help. They're looking for some clarity.
01:16:43
They're looking for somebody to influence them in some way because they don't have good emotional regulation and
01:16:49
they're trying to get better in their relationships. We've been fortunate to to have that and that's kind of where,
01:16:54
you know, I don't I don't do a lot of social media, you know, I don't do uh a lot of other other things because I
01:17:00
spend my time here. As you know, we have a closing tradition on the podcast, but the last guest leaves a question for the
01:17:05
next. And the question that's been left for you is, what decision do you most regret? And
01:17:12
would things have turned out better if you had made it differently?
01:17:18
Ouch, that's a spicy one. So I
01:17:26
as much as this wants to be a spicy one, I can I can categorically tell you that there's not a decision that I've made
01:17:32
that I wish I would have made different. And I say that because it kind of goes back to I own my decisions in terms of
01:17:39
the things that I have done. I even when the story that I shared about, you know, when I was a police officer with the kid who was drinking, like I own those
01:17:44
decisions. And in truth, like all of those decisions have manifested itself
01:17:50
for me to sit down here with you today and have this conversation. And so I can't tell you that there's something that I look back that I regret because I
01:17:57
think that there's things we learn from. But I think for the most part, I don't use hindsight bias. I don't look back to say I wish there was something else. I
01:18:03
use those things to uh to grow and to learn and be better. And you know, had I made a difference decision, maybe you
01:18:09
and I wouldn't be sitting here. So none. But you still I mean, if someone asked me that, I'd have loads of answers. Like
01:18:15
what? Just like the ways that I handled situations in my life as an employee. You know, I shouldn't shouldn't have
01:18:20
said that. I shouldn't have done that. I you know, when my girlfriend said that, do you know, I should have just listened and I wish I had because I think our
01:18:27
relationship would be better or you know, some grudge I held or whatever, you know, like the the
01:18:33
messiness of being a emotional human. So let me let me ask this and I think you
01:18:39
know I I do question at times that that type of I wish and I regret I think that
01:18:45
also changes who you are as a person if you're like I would have gone back and done we we can
01:18:51
all do that in some and I don't mean that's petty but in all some petty way when I was writing my my thesis I would
01:18:57
always come to my thesis adviser and she'd be like nope this isn't good this isn't good this isn't good and so when I was done there was like I had like 30 p
01:19:04
she's like just put this in the parking lot. Like maybe we'll look at this, maybe we won't. So when I was done with my thesis, I had 30 pages that were in
01:19:11
the parking lot. And I went to her and I I feel like this is a lot of mistakes. And she goes, you had to have this to
01:19:17
have this. And so when when I hear that when it's just like, oh, I wish I would have done these things different. You
01:19:23
would be a different person, right? It's all those perspectives. It's all those little things that you code and become a different person. You would be a
01:19:29
different person if you had done those things differently. I'm not saying better or worse, but I'm saying I don't I don't think that's a reason to look
01:19:35
back and regret things. Yeah, I probably would still have those mistakes in my future if I hadn't made them in the past as well. So maybe maybe
01:19:41
the very fact that I can identify them means that my self-awareness grew based on them. I like I'm never going to treat
01:19:48
someone like that again or I'm never going to say that thing again because I learned the lesson. So I'm a better person
01:19:53
today because of that. Yeah. Desmond, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing what you do and uh this is your you said
01:20:00
this is your first podcast which is exciting. It's my first podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you.
01:20:08
If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is
01:20:14
exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and
01:20:19
have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to
01:20:26
each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest and we've
01:20:31
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