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What are the five most important things
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for anyone who's striving to be a
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masterful communicator to get what they
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want out of life?
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>> The first is authenticity and presence
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is the highest form of authenticity.
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>> Okay, on that point, I'm going to play
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this video on the screen that went viral
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of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell.
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>> Oh, I haven't seen this.
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That's painful to watch.
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>> Number two,
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>> reduce the amount of distraction. Three,
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stop overexplaining.
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>> Number four, know how to deal with their
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sadness. And I'll go through all of
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these in detail, but number five is you
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have to know how to handle the
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narcissist and the gaslighter. What do I
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do? Let me show you. First, you need to
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come.
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>> Yeah. For a lot of people, that kind of
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blows their mind. Jefferson Fiser is
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back and the board certified trial
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lawyer is using his expertise in
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conflict resolution and communication
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>> to teach couples, friends, employees,
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>> and everyone in between how to master
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difficult conversations.
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>> Here's the truth. You have to invest in
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your communication. If I don't say what
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needs to be said at work, I'll lose that
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promotion. Same thing in relationships.
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Most relationships don't fall apart
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because they fell out of love. They fell
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out of communication because of a 100
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moments where repair could have happened
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and it didn't. Cuz you said, "Ah, this
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is so stupid. This so small." Like
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there's a recent study showing that the
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biggest predictor of the child's
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well-being within the parental
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relationship is not whether they were
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married or divorced. It was how they
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deal with conflict. But people are
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definitely afraid of the conflict that
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they're in cuz they don't know what to
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say. And so I want to help them feel
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controlled in this, feel confident in
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this. And it's knowing things like being
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right is overrated. If I respond first
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with frustration, I'm going to lose
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every time. Or if you want to know how
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to handle the insults, the patronizing,
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the dismissive, the first thing you have
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to do is the mistake I've made multiple
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times.
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>> I see messages all the time in the
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comment section that some of you didn't
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realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
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could do me a favor and double check if
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you're a subscriber to this channel,
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that would be tremendously appreciated.
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It's the simple, it's the free thing
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that anybody that watches this show
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frequently can do to help us here to
00:02:02
keep everything going in this show in
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the trajectory it's on. So, please do
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double check if you've subscribed and uh
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thank you so much because in a strange
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way, you are you're part of our history
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and you're on this journey with us and I
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appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank
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you.
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Jefferson Fisher.
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>> What do you do professionally?
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>> What is your How do you sort of
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characterize your profession?
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>> Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade.
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>> What does that mean?
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>> That means I help clients with legal
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needs. I'm board certified in personal
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injury. So, when people get hurt, I have
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trials. So, that means there are other
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attorneys that don't ever go to a
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courtroom. I go into a courtroom.
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>> Then you stand before a judge
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>> and a Yeah. You have a judge, you have a
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jury, you have a court reporter, a
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baiff, you have opposing attorneys.
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There are people in the room
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>> and you try and convince those people of
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your point of view to get a particular
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outcome.
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>> I advocate my client's facts in order to
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get the result that they want.
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>> So, why did you think it was important
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to write a book about conversation
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talking, getting what you want from
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the conversations we have with people we
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care about? Because I have seen time and
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time again that when I am training a
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client is what I call I'm preparing them
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for cross- examination for deposition
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they really don't know how to engage in
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conflict. And so I can't think of any
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other profession that is more entrenched
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in conflict maybe outside of a a boxer
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or some you know UFC something that
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deals with actual conflict and sits
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there and listens to it all than in the
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legal world in a trial attorney. And so,
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yeah, it's my job to advocate based on
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my clients facts to to get them the
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result that they want. The reason why I
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wrote that book and how that book
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applies is I took a lot of the lessons
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that I teach every one of my clients and
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put them in that book because I'm
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sitting there preparing them for
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cross-examination and realizing, oh,
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wait, they are deathly afraid of the
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conflict that they're in. is most of the
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time it's the most
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emotional, stressful, overwhelmed they
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are ever in their life. They've they're
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in a place they've never been. They
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don't know what it's like. They've only
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seen it on TV. And so it's my job to
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kind of take their hand and say, "This
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is how we're going to this is how we're
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going to do it."
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>> And how does that apply to the average
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person in their life?
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>> People think that
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the goal of any argument or any
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conversation is to win. And same for a
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trial. They say you want to win a trial.
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I've seen it so many times where I've
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gotten the result that they want and
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I've realized they still have the
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problem. They still wanted the apology.
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It all would have been resolved. There'd
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be no case if somebody had just said,
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"I'm sorry." And so you find that for
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the everyday person, it's my job now and
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and passion to be able to help them get
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into conflict and say, "I feel
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controlled in this. I feel confident in
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this now. I know exactly where I'm going
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in this because I've been there before
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and it is not a skill that comes
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naturally. It is a skill that is
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learned.
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And what do you think is the the sort of
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variance and outcome? How would my life
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change if I became an absolute master in
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this? You know, if I started from zero
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in this regard and then I became a
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master in dealing with conflict and
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dealing with difficult people and
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dealing with people that gaslight me and
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dealing with narcissists and all these
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kinds of things, why would my life be
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different and and in what domains?
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>> It's quite a lot.
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>> Yeah. First would be you would be
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equipped for outside of necessary
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expertise anywhere you wanted to be in
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life. People feel like communication is
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zero cost. It costs you something. If
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I'm not speaking up in that
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relationship, it costs my own sense of
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worth. If I don't say what needs to be
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said at work, I might have lost that
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promotion. I I everything the bill
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always comes due. If you can think of
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every time you didn't say the thing as
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like a receipt at a restaurant, every
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time it's it's a bill of what I am not
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putting into my life because I chose to
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either say something or not say
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something at the right time. And when
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you realize that if I can speak with
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confidence, well, that's me gaining a
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little bit more. If if I can say things
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with control, that's me gaining just a
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little bit more. A second benefit of it
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is that you realize
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being right is overrated.
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You can, if you tell me the sky is
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purple, knock yourself out, Stephen. It
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doesn't have to touch anything with me
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on on who I am or any of my opinions.
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We're we're opinion-making machines. I
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feel that's all on social media. It's to
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be set up to give your opinion on things
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that most of the time will rarely ever
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touch you. And if you can have the peace
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of mind of knowing
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I don't need to agree with you to
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understand you.
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If you have an opinion, I don't have to
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give one back. If you say something, I
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can choose not to say anything at all.
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And for a lot of people, that kind of
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blows their mind of, "You mean I don't
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have to respond?" No, you don't have to
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say anything. If somebody's talking
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really fast, you can talk really slow.
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They forget that you have full autonomy
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in it. And when you realize that it's
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you who's taking the wheel, you take the
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wheel of your life.
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>> But what about justice, Jefferson?
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>> Yeah.
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>> Do you know justice? Like this person
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has wronged me. They've said something
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wrong. They've I don't know, they
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tweeted at me something which is
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incorrect. I need to correct the record.
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Justice. I think we all have a sort of
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an an innate sense of justice. We want
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things to be fair and right.
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>> Yes, justice is an inherent value that
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is high priority for a lot of people for
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good reason. You might say, well,
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they've they've wronged me. This isn't
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right. That's all well and good. The
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question is going to be, how long do you
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want to carry it? How long do you want
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to carry that feeling? Because I can
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either choose to let it go. I can choose
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to say the thing. It's it's not at all
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my position that you should be stepping
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on eggshells and not say the thing and
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be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite.
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I'm saying you you say what you need to
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say in a way that is controlled, in a
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way that is signaling I don't I'm saying
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this because it needs to be said, but
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not because I have to say it. There's a
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lot of people who feel like, well,
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something needs to be said, but am I
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maybe you're not the one to say it.
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Maybe you you're the one that needs to
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maybe needs doesn't need to be said
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right now because if they're not willing
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to listen, well then what good is it
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ever do? What I like to say is, you
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know, for you to learn how to stand up
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for yourself, you first have to learn
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who's worth getting out of your chair
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for. I'm not going to be making big
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moves for something that is not at all
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worth my my time. So yeah, justice is
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absolutely worth it. But when you go,
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I'm the one that has to be carrying
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this. A lot of the times people do
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things to you and it's nothing to them,
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but yet it's everything to you and now
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you're just you're walking around for 20
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years with a comment that you could have
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said something way long ago and decided
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to drop it, but you you chose to to
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carry it and now you're the only one
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that has the the weight of that. If I'm
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dealing with someone who's in a position
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of power, someone who's a I don't know a
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senior to me at my company or even
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someone who in my social group is a bit
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more higher up in the sort of social
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pecking order and they're continually
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putting me down or being difficult or
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even a partner that I'm romantically
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involved in.
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>> What are the hallmarks of someone who
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has control over their communication?
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And what are the hallmarks of someone
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that doesn't like what is it that makes
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because when you speak it's very feels
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very composed and controlled. What are
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you intentionally doing to achieve that
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effect?
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I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm
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wanting you to come to my frequency.
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People get it wrong when they go big
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time to an 11. Big emotional reaction.
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If I have a big emotional outburst, am I
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signaling that I'm somebody who's
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trustworthy, reliable, and confident? Or
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am I signaling that I am out of my
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depth? I don't know what I want, and I
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am not to be believed. Right? because
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it's when you have an emotional
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outburst, everybody thinks this is
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you're just being emotional and they
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don't all of a sudden you're not
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credited for the truth of what you're
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saying. So sometimes emotions can get in
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the way of what needs to be said because
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of how you're delivering it. So when I
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say I'm going to talk to you in a way
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that's going to sound more controlled,
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it's I'm slowing down my words. I'm
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lowering my volume. Why? Because I want
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to pull you down here.
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And if I can pull you down here, well
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then we can talk about a lot harder
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things rather than feeling like I have
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to to rush. So if you want to talk to
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somebody in your relationship or
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somebody that's kind of higher up on the
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pecking order, so to speak, when you can
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show them that
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change doesn't bother you, when you can
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show them that you don't have to rush
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through this situation, people feel that
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you are giving them a sense of comfort.
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In other words, in conversation,
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everybody is looking for an anchor.
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When you go to a meeting, we listen to
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the person who's the anchor. They're
00:11:28
usually the person who says a lot less,
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the person who's observing and listening
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rather than always giving their opinion
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about what you should be doing. Those
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are the people you don't listen to. As
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soon as you, if you've ever heard
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somebody say, "You know what I think you
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should do?" Does that ever make you want
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to do what they said? No. It's because
00:11:44
they they've made it their idea. Now
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they're telling you what to do. If I
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were to say to you, you can't do that.
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What's the first thing you think of?
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Yes, I can.
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>> You know, it's it's the same kind of
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concept where it's me lowering to be the
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anchor in the conversation.
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>> And when you're in a case in front of a
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judge, is is there anything else that
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you're intentionally thinking about
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with, I don't know, your body language
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or the eye contact or any of these other
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things that you've learned over time are
00:12:12
really important to get your message
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heard?
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>> I'm speaking like I've been there
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before.
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>> Explain that to me. walk into a room
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like you've been there before, as if
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everybody else is just visiting. So,
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what I do before every trial is I will
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go in there before the jury comes in,
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the judge comes in, everybody comes in
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and I say to myself, this is my living
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room and everybody else is just
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visiting. And so, I will touch the
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chairs. I will put my hands on the
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banisters. I will walk around. I will
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feel that space and and feel it in a way
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of saying I have been here before. And
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when I can exude that kind of confidence
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that every juror that watches,
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all of a sudden it calms them down. They
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go, who can I rely on here? Who's more
00:13:00
trustworthy? Who's more credible?
00:13:02
Because that's what it is when you're
00:13:03
when you're persuading, when you are
00:13:06
advocating your case, it's who
00:13:08
ultimately it comes down to who is more
00:13:10
credible. And so when I can
00:13:13
not get emotionally flustered, like I've
00:13:15
seen it so many times where a judge
00:13:19
rules against me
00:13:21
and I act as though that's exactly what
00:13:24
I wanted. You know, I am I'm acting as
00:13:27
though, thank you, judge. And the jur
00:13:30
the juryy's never going to know really
00:13:31
any different. But I've seen on other
00:13:34
attorneys where the judge rules against
00:13:35
them and they go
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or they roll their eyes or they act
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frustrated. And what does the juror
00:13:41
think? Oh, they must not have wanted me
00:13:42
to hear this information or this must
00:13:45
have been bad for their case. So, if you
00:13:47
are always reacting to situations in
00:13:49
which you have to be emotional with in a
00:13:53
sense that you're not paying attention
00:13:55
to who's watching you.
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>> Okay. On that point,
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:59
>> So, when you say rules against you, you
00:14:00
mean during the trial
00:14:02
>> there's something you request, the judge
00:14:04
might say no, and you say, "Thank you,
00:14:05
judge."
00:14:06
>> You act as if
00:14:07
>> you're not defeated. you act as though
00:14:09
that's exactly what you expected, right?
00:14:11
It's it's the whole idea of that's not
00:14:14
going to shake shake me. So, a lot of
00:14:16
the times you'll see in real court, not
00:14:18
TV, uh the judge will say, "Counsel, can
00:14:21
you approach?" And both attorneys come
00:14:23
up and they play some kind of noise
00:14:25
cancellation to where only the the
00:14:26
attorneys can hear the judge and the
00:14:28
judge is making a decision at that time
00:14:30
that we don't want to hear to let the
00:14:31
jury know. Why? Because it's information
00:14:33
that might sway the case in some way and
00:14:36
not be as objective.
00:14:38
And you have to pay attention to who's
00:14:40
how the attorneys are walking away after
00:14:42
that meeting's done. If somebody looks
00:14:43
defeated, it just signals, oh, this is
00:14:46
information that they must not want or
00:14:49
they're objecting. I've seen so many
00:14:51
cases where there's one attorney who
00:14:54
objects to everything.
00:14:56
It's my rule if I really want to have
00:14:58
one objection the whole trial because to
00:15:01
the jury, an objection is me keeping
00:15:04
evidence out. So, if you always object,
00:15:06
always object, always object, you're
00:15:07
just signaling there's information I
00:15:09
don't want you to hear. But if I have
00:15:10
the confidence of knowing there's really
00:15:12
one objection I know that's going to be
00:15:14
material to my case,
00:15:16
that way they know I've been there
00:15:18
before. This is not something that's
00:15:20
going to be making or breaking my case.
00:15:23
It's it's all of credibility. If they
00:15:25
don't trust me, they're not going to
00:15:27
trust my client or my client's case.
00:15:29
>> I think also it illuminates to me how
00:15:31
much of a communication is nonverbal.
00:15:33
Because in that example, you're just
00:15:34
talking about how they're watching your
00:15:35
body language and how you've received
00:15:37
something,
00:15:38
>> right?
00:15:39
>> And the, you know, if you were
00:15:40
defensive, you know, with all those
00:15:42
objections or if you were defeated in
00:15:44
the judge's ruling,
00:15:46
>> that would work against you even though
00:15:48
it's really nothing was said, like
00:15:50
nothing significant was said.
00:15:52
>> Yeah. It's it's a balance of knowing
00:15:56
am I going to
00:15:59
choose to react because of personal ego
00:16:02
of I didn't get in my way or am I having
00:16:04
the better mindset of I'm advocating on
00:16:06
behalf of my client like I I've been
00:16:09
let's say you're a witness and you're
00:16:12
opposed to me and I'm asking you a
00:16:14
question and I think you said something
00:16:16
that's contrary contrary to the evidence
00:16:18
that I have right here rather than me
00:16:20
getting messed up saying are you are you
00:16:21
sure about that, Mr. Barl. Let me go.
00:16:23
You know, I have this piece of paper
00:16:24
here and I get really worked up versus
00:16:27
me putting you said something and I put
00:16:28
my hand on the the paper. I said, "You
00:16:31
sure?" Like all of a sudden, it's a
00:16:34
moment of it kind of peaks their
00:16:36
interest of like, "What's happening? Oh,
00:16:37
this attorney knows. This attorney is
00:16:40
somebody who's confident and has this
00:16:43
what I call in the pocket presence. I'm
00:16:46
not trying to be too forward. I'm not
00:16:48
trying to be too pack. I'm just in the
00:16:49
pocket like a a jazz band." Like
00:16:51
everybody is on everybody's on beat and
00:16:54
so I'm not I'm not rushing. I'm not
00:16:56
slowing down. I'm just right in the
00:16:57
pocket.
00:16:58
>> In the pocket. Is that what people call
00:17:00
aura?
00:17:01
>> Swagger maybe as some people call it.
00:17:03
Yeah. Aura. You you could have it for
00:17:05
anything in any context. I like to say
00:17:07
in the pocket because it just reminds me
00:17:09
of
00:17:11
the right timing is my timing. And that
00:17:14
is I'm I'm going to match
00:17:16
how I need to be of what's most
00:17:19
authentic, what's most genuine to me. If
00:17:21
you were to ask me to read something
00:17:22
really fast, it wouldn't sound that
00:17:24
great because that's not that's not my
00:17:26
personality. And so if I know that I am
00:17:29
acting and speaking in accordance with
00:17:31
the values that I hold and I'm saying
00:17:33
everybody here is just is just visiting.
00:17:36
This is I've been here before. Let me
00:17:38
y'all don't know where to go. Let me
00:17:39
show you. And I I have that kind of
00:17:41
mentality,
00:17:43
people will listen to you forever.
00:17:46
They'll they'll find that attractive,
00:17:48
saying, "How does this person know where
00:17:49
they're going? Well, I can I can follow
00:17:51
them." It's just it's natural leadership
00:17:53
to speak in a way that says, "I know
00:17:55
where I've I'm going. I've been here
00:17:57
before."
00:17:58
>> I think that's probably good advice for
00:17:59
people who um have important meetings or
00:18:02
are going on dates.
00:18:03
>> Yeah.
00:18:03
>> To maybe get there ahead of time and
00:18:05
familiarize yourself with the location.
00:18:07
>> Yes. just so you you know you don't have
00:18:09
the added anxiety of like stumbling
00:18:11
through the physical environment like
00:18:13
looking for the thing or trying to find
00:18:14
the toilet or
00:18:16
>> I don't know trying to figure out how to
00:18:17
make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop
00:18:19
onto the screen and all those kinds of
00:18:20
things which we've all seen before.
00:18:22
>> Yeah. I always anytime I go to speak um
00:18:24
I I spoke this past week uh in Santa
00:18:27
Barbara.
00:18:28
>> I went ahead of time before my speaking
00:18:30
time to to go I want to see what the
00:18:32
room looks like. I want to see how how
00:18:34
can I touch and say hi to the people
00:18:36
that are working AV. How can I meet
00:18:38
them? How can I if you really want to be
00:18:40
better as a professional speaker? Talk
00:18:42
to people in the crowd before you speak.
00:18:45
>> Get to know people's names. It's going
00:18:46
to naturally lower you. Get to know
00:18:49
their names. Ask them why they're here.
00:18:51
Say, "I'm so thankful that you're here.
00:18:52
I'm really looking forward to the
00:18:54
message and getting to talk to you
00:18:55
today." when you when you can go in and
00:18:57
touch people, it's a different sense
00:19:00
than if I'm going into a room totally
00:19:02
cold because you don't really have the
00:19:03
vibe. You don't really know how that is.
00:19:05
So, yeah, going into a restaurant ahead
00:19:06
of time, that's great. Not bringing your
00:19:08
phone, even better. You know, getting
00:19:10
able to be a sense of knowing
00:19:14
I I've been here before. I want to
00:19:16
welcome you to to my space. When we talk
00:19:19
about um people that have aura, you must
00:19:21
have met a lot of people in your career
00:19:22
and your life generally that you felt
00:19:24
had a sense of aura.
00:19:26
>> Yes.
00:19:27
>> What was it about them that gave them
00:19:30
that aura? What is it? It's a frequency
00:19:34
of
00:19:36
peace for me. I think of people and you
00:19:40
think of people in your life who you
00:19:43
have felt most
00:19:45
comfortable with. the person you feel
00:19:47
like I I can just be myself. I can
00:19:49
finally let everything down. Like for
00:19:51
me, it was my my grandparents house. As
00:19:54
soon as I walk in, it's a different
00:19:56
feeling of time kind of stands still.
00:20:00
They want to know about me. They want to
00:20:02
know how am I doing? They It's It's that
00:20:05
feeling. I could talk about people who
00:20:07
seem like they have aura and they just
00:20:09
have a a glow about them. It's usually
00:20:12
of they're not trying to prove anything
00:20:14
to anybody. They just naturally exude
00:20:18
that kind of charisma because of the
00:20:21
security of knowing who they are and
00:20:24
what they can do. And I guess what
00:20:26
what's the opposite of that then?
00:20:28
Sometimes it's easier to understand
00:20:29
something by understanding the opposite.
00:20:31
What would that look like?
00:20:33
>> I would say that
00:20:35
authentic people,
00:20:37
authentic aura as you said, doesn't come
00:20:41
from people
00:20:43
securing themselves to you. That's for
00:20:46
insecure people.
00:20:48
The people who are authentic know that I
00:20:52
am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you
00:20:54
want to rush? I'm I'm in really no rush.
00:20:56
I'm What happens today happens today. Is
00:20:59
it really due today or could it be done
00:21:02
tomorrow if I I had to? if it's a slower
00:21:05
pace. I I find that there is so much
00:21:08
kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on
00:21:11
these kind of things where and I'm from
00:21:14
Texas in the south. So it's it's kind of
00:21:15
this
00:21:17
knowing that the right time will come
00:21:19
when that time is right and not having
00:21:22
to push that. So if you want to look at
00:21:23
the opposite, it's the it's the opposite
00:21:26
of aura is insecure. It's named
00:21:30
dropping. It's having to be friends
00:21:32
immediately. It's having to prove to you
00:21:35
how much money I have or what. It's
00:21:37
everything else
00:21:40
being everything to everybody else
00:21:41
except myself.
00:21:44
Like people who have a sense of style,
00:21:46
their own sense of style naturally have
00:21:48
an aura. Why? Because they don't care
00:21:50
what in the world anybody else is
00:21:51
wearing. This is what I like. My
00:21:54
daughter, all right, she's six. We tried
00:21:57
setting out clothes. Forget it. She she
00:22:00
can come down in a leopard print tutu
00:22:03
and her sunglasses and whatever she
00:22:05
wants. And you know what? She thinks she
00:22:06
is the flyest thing in the world. I mean
00:22:08
that's I never want to take that out of
00:22:11
her. The people who have a sense of
00:22:13
fashion, a sense of who I am and they
00:22:17
didn't have to look cool to anybody
00:22:18
social standard, but it's do they really
00:22:21
care what anybody else thinks? Usually
00:22:23
the people with aura do not. Mhm.
00:22:27
>> And sometimes when you come up against I
00:22:30
mean we were talking before we started
00:22:31
recording about since this book's
00:22:34
publication what have been people saying
00:22:36
to you what have the chapters um what
00:22:38
are the chapters that have stood out the
00:22:39
most to people and you mentioned that it
00:22:40
tends to be things around dealing with
00:22:43
difficult conversations dealing with
00:22:44
difficult people.
00:22:46
>> Right.
00:22:46
>> And one of the phrases that's been
00:22:48
arguably overused a lot in society is
00:22:50
this phrase gaslighting.
00:22:52
>> Yeah. And the definition of gaslighting
00:22:54
that I managed to pull was gaslighting
00:22:56
is psychological manipulation where one
00:22:58
person purposefully lies or manipulates
00:23:00
the other to make them doubt their own
00:23:02
reality, memory, or sanity.
00:23:04
>> Mhm.
00:23:04
>> Do people talk to you about gaslighting
00:23:06
a lot?
00:23:07
>> Yes.
00:23:07
>> Now that you've written this book?
00:23:08
>> Yes.
00:23:09
>> And what do you think gaslighting? It's
00:23:11
one of those things that's been used so
00:23:12
often that we almost have to like pause
00:23:13
for a second just to define it again.
00:23:15
>> Yes. Well, let me put it this way. The
00:23:17
difference between
00:23:19
gaslighting and lying. Lying is a
00:23:22
surface level of
00:23:27
I could tell you instead of having a
00:23:28
silver cup, this is a red cup. Well,
00:23:30
that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm
00:23:34
trying to alter your reality into mine.
00:23:38
I'm I'm trying to make you question how
00:23:41
other people perceive you, including
00:23:43
myself. How you perceive yourself. If
00:23:46
anybody's ever questioned, "Am I crazy?
00:23:48
Am I the crazy one? Is it Is it me? Is
00:23:51
it is everybody most likely you're
00:23:53
probably being gas and here's the truth.
00:23:57
I have been the gaslighter.
00:24:00
Everybody has been the gaslighter
00:24:02
whether they intentionally know it or
00:24:04
not. Because it's all that feeling of
00:24:07
preservation of defensiveness of I don't
00:24:10
want people to know the truth of of
00:24:12
what's happening in my life so I'm going
00:24:14
to mislead. In gaslighting, the intent
00:24:17
is to alter your reality, to make you
00:24:20
question what is real and what is not.
00:24:25
So, I might do something wrong and then
00:24:26
I might come home and know that I've
00:24:28
done something wrong and intentionally
00:24:30
try and sell my partner a version of
00:24:32
reality that makes them fundamentally
00:24:34
question what they know to try and spare
00:24:36
me
00:24:36
>> the critique or to control them.
00:24:40
>> Yes. To protect yourself. It's it's it's
00:24:43
selfpreservation.
00:24:44
Say, let's say you and your partner had
00:24:46
come home from a a dinner, all right?
00:24:48
And you're just in a very critical mood
00:24:50
and maybe you're trying to to distract
00:24:53
from something else that's going on in
00:24:54
your life and you're being critical of a
00:24:57
story that she shared at dinner and
00:24:59
you're like, why did you why would you
00:25:01
ever say that? And she goes, everything
00:25:03
was fine. You're like, fine. No, no, it
00:25:05
was not. Did you not see how they
00:25:06
reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know
00:25:10
you don't want to hear this, but
00:25:12
everybody feels that, you know, you're a
00:25:15
little bit much. You and I and I'm I'm
00:25:18
the one that needs to tell you this. You
00:25:20
see how you're all of a sudden is
00:25:21
starting to alter how she feels in that
00:25:24
moment. And I've seen the the other side
00:25:26
of that. And it is it is not at all
00:25:29
something that you can come back from
00:25:31
without serious relationship work to be
00:25:35
able to find a way to say okay what's
00:25:38
how are we really walking in truth
00:25:40
because you get so far away from radical
00:25:42
honesty in conversation. So gaslighting
00:25:44
is is is not something to be taken
00:25:47
lightly. But I will say people often
00:25:48
apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it
00:25:51
as a sense of saying you're saying
00:25:54
something I don't like so you're
00:25:55
gaslighting me. You know, we're in an
00:25:57
argument and you're pointing out
00:25:58
something that hurt your feelings. Oh,
00:25:59
that's gaslighting, you know, and and
00:26:01
they they they use it as an excuse.
00:26:03
>> It's almost a form of gaslighting.
00:26:05
>> Exactly. That's exactly right. And it in
00:26:08
a weird way, it can reverse that way.
00:26:09
But imagine me saying something hurtful
00:26:11
to you and you go, "That really hurt my
00:26:13
feelings." I go, "That's just my
00:26:14
boundary. I just I have a boundary about
00:26:15
everything." Or, "This is you're just
00:26:17
gaslighting me." You know, I've never
00:26:18
met somebody who talked about their ex
00:26:21
without saying my narcissistic ex. you
00:26:24
know, I finally just got out of a
00:26:25
narcissistic relationship. It's never
00:26:27
us, right? It's always the other It's
00:26:29
always the other person. And so, there's
00:26:30
these words that we can kind of pepper
00:26:33
insult into sentences that are also
00:26:36
still another form if we look at it, a
00:26:38
form of self-preservation. Look at all
00:26:40
their bad and don't look at mine.
00:26:42
>> Why is it important that we don't
00:26:43
gaslight others? And I asked this
00:26:45
question because everybody listening now
00:26:47
is probably going to want the answer to
00:26:48
the question, which is what what do I do
00:26:50
about a gaslighter? Yeah. Yeah,
00:26:51
>> but this is avoiding the responsibility
00:26:54
that we all have a like a tendency or at
00:26:58
some point in our life have gaslighted
00:26:59
somebody else
00:27:01
>> and you know I don't think my audience
00:27:04
is just the gaslighted
00:27:08
>> statistically clearly you're also all
00:27:09
the gaslighters
00:27:10
>> right
00:27:11
>> so how do um why is it important that we
00:27:14
don't gaslight other people and is there
00:27:15
a way for us to avoid
00:27:18
you know getting into a situation where
00:27:19
our back's against the wall and we end
00:27:20
up gaslighting one,
00:27:22
>> it's important not to gaslight somebody
00:27:25
because every time you do, you're
00:27:28
removing
00:27:29
yourself further and further from the
00:27:31
truth, the truth of how you feel, the
00:27:34
truth of your relationship. You are
00:27:36
withholding
00:27:38
reality from that other person rather
00:27:40
than having radical radical honesty
00:27:42
about what's what's happening. So it it
00:27:45
degrades the relationship. It degrades
00:27:47
another person's selfworth. And in many
00:27:49
ways, gaslighting steals their reality.
00:27:55
It's not something you can give back
00:27:57
without a lot of work. It it's it's
00:28:00
taking in some sense. Now, it can be
00:28:02
absolutely
00:28:04
intentional and it can also be
00:28:06
unintentional as a form of
00:28:07
self-preservation.
00:28:09
And if you feel like you are being
00:28:12
gaslit,
00:28:13
the secret to knowing is slowing down
00:28:17
the conversation.
00:28:19
If I am staying still in the
00:28:23
conversation, meaning you could say
00:28:25
something to me that's a form of
00:28:27
gaslighting, making me question, did I
00:28:29
oh my goodness, did I really say that?
00:28:30
Did I really hurt their feelings? No, I
00:28:31
did I and get into my head and I start
00:28:35
kind of jumping around and trying to
00:28:37
change what I did. But if I were to say,
00:28:40
"Stephen, I remember that differently."
00:28:43
And that's where I stop.
00:28:46
Then you can try other things. And I'm
00:28:47
going to repeat, "Yeah, I remember that
00:28:50
differently."
00:28:51
It's standing in the truth of what you
00:28:53
know rather than being concerned
00:28:57
and misled
00:28:58
by giving someone the reins and the
00:29:00
leash to drag you around.
00:29:03
And if I um if I think about I think
00:29:06
it's thinking about all the times where
00:29:07
I've I think I might have gas gas gas
00:29:08
gas lit someone you know in
00:29:10
relationships backs against the wall um
00:29:13
and you're having an argument with
00:29:15
someone or
00:29:17
>> it's quite difficult in my head to know
00:29:18
the difference between the word like
00:29:19
just tell saying something that isn't
00:29:21
necessarily true or is that is your
00:29:22
perception of things versus like
00:29:24
gaslighting
00:29:26
>> is the is the difference in your mind
00:29:27
intention
00:29:28
>> like is if I if I give my version of
00:29:30
reality
00:29:31
>> yeah We were at that party. You said
00:29:34
this thing. I saw the person roll their
00:29:36
eyes and then they walked away. I think
00:29:37
they're really offended. I think you
00:29:38
offended them,
00:29:39
>> right?
00:29:39
>> What's the difference between that and
00:29:41
me gaslighting someone
00:29:43
>> of between lying and gaslighting or it's
00:29:45
>> Yeah. Like I'm trying to understand in
00:29:47
in that context you gave about going to
00:29:48
a party, someone said something and then
00:29:50
they walk up. What's the difference
00:29:51
between if that's how you saw reality
00:29:54
and you're communicating it versus
00:29:55
gaslighting someone?
00:29:56
>> It to the intention.
00:29:58
>> It's the intention. The tension is I'm
00:30:00
the one in control, not you.
00:30:02
>> Okay.
00:30:03
>> So, you are trying to control the
00:30:05
narrative. You are trying to be both
00:30:08
director, producer, and actor
00:30:10
>> for your own agenda.
00:30:11
>> That's right. For your own film
00:30:13
>> and for control.
00:30:14
>> I'm I'm the character in my own movie.
00:30:16
I'm the main character. And you need to
00:30:20
behave this way. You need to believe
00:30:22
this. You need to act upon that. And so
00:30:25
the more I can try to manipulate that
00:30:29
reality
00:30:31
and what's so wild is it becomes so
00:30:34
manipulated that you believe it too. Now
00:30:37
now that that falsehood has now become
00:30:40
your fact in some sense that the really
00:30:42
good liars convince themselves that that
00:30:45
lie is is the truth. Is there a certain
00:30:48
type of person that's more susceptible
00:30:50
to being gaslit or to being victimized
00:30:53
in any way with conversation in your
00:30:54
view?
00:30:55
>> Anxious attachment. The ones that are
00:30:57
they
00:30:59
people who can't regulate by themselves,
00:31:01
they have to co-regulate.
00:31:03
Meaning
00:31:05
most of the time men are were good
00:31:09
self-regulators. Just give me some time
00:31:12
by myself. Give me an evening. Give me
00:31:16
an hour. Let me walk outside. I'll and
00:31:18
I'll regulate myself.
00:31:21
Most of the time, it's been my
00:31:22
experience. Women are not like that.
00:31:24
They co-regulate most of them. They they
00:31:27
need you to also make them feel good.
00:31:30
They can't be good if you're not good.
00:31:32
We're not good. I'm not good if if
00:31:34
you're not okay. So, it's it's that
00:31:36
whole I'm not okay if you're not okay.
00:31:38
And so in many ways they need you to be
00:31:42
able to calm down themselves and they
00:31:46
they don't self-regulate as well. And so
00:31:50
the people who are most susceptible to
00:31:52
gaslighting are ones who need
00:31:54
co-regulation.
00:31:55
People who are anxious anxious
00:31:57
attachment meaning they they need uh are
00:32:01
you okay? Are you good? Do you need
00:32:02
anything? Are you sure you're not okay?
00:32:04
and versus the people who are more
00:32:08
avoidant and three the the people who
00:32:10
are are typically more insecure.
00:32:12
>> So do you think women get gas lit more
00:32:13
than men?
00:32:14
>> Yes.
00:32:17
>> But women still gaslight women, right?
00:32:19
>> Of course.
00:32:20
>> But just men are more
00:32:21
>> when you're talking relationships. When
00:32:23
you're talking relationships, that's my
00:32:24
personal opinion is because from my
00:32:26
feedback from the people that have read
00:32:29
my book and the people who give me
00:32:31
feedback on my book, Yeah. It's majority
00:32:34
vast majority are are women. I'm not
00:32:36
saying that's some empirical study on
00:32:38
it. But what I will say is
00:32:42
women are just as capable of gaslighting
00:32:48
and gas women can certainly gaslight
00:32:49
women. And it's I I'm saying this with
00:32:53
the mindset of everybody gaslights
00:32:56
whether they know it or not. And they
00:32:58
have in the past. Most likely they can
00:32:59
think of a time in the past where they
00:33:01
did without knowing it. But it is that
00:33:05
would be my opinion that most of the
00:33:07
time men are the ones that do it to
00:33:09
women.
00:33:09
>> Just reading some research here that
00:33:11
says multiple studies on emotional abuse
00:33:12
in heterosexual relationships show women
00:33:14
report higher rates of gaslighting and
00:33:16
coercive control than men. Men do report
00:33:19
gaslighting too, but less frequently and
00:33:21
usually in different forms. Um, and as
00:33:24
it relates to workplace data, surveys
00:33:26
from management and organizational
00:33:27
psychology show women are more likely to
00:33:29
have their competence questioned, their
00:33:30
memory doubted, or their experience
00:33:33
dismissed.
00:33:35
Women in male-dominated fields report
00:33:37
the highest rates of gaslighting, and
00:33:39
women of color report even higher rates
00:33:41
of being told their perception is wrong
00:33:43
or misinterpret or that they're
00:33:44
misinterpreting things.
00:33:47
>> Sounds like that tracks.
00:33:50
And also in medical settings, women are
00:33:52
less likely to be to be believed about
00:33:54
their symptoms. Women's pain is
00:33:56
underestimated. Women get later
00:33:58
diagnoses for multiple conditions like
00:34:00
heart disease and autoimmune disorders,
00:34:01
ADHD and autism. And the list goes on
00:34:04
and on and on. If I had to say who does
00:34:08
more, you know, I'm not trying to put
00:34:10
some kind of like headline of men do it
00:34:13
more than women. In my experience, it
00:34:16
tends to be the guy. And you know what
00:34:18
does that that information show me? It
00:34:22
shows me that that sounds about right. I
00:34:26
do think from the people that follow my
00:34:28
content, listen to my content because I
00:34:30
stay very connected to my community of
00:34:34
so many women say I feel like I'm in
00:34:36
this workplace and they are doubting my
00:34:38
competence. They're doubting my ability
00:34:39
to make decisions. I'm not being
00:34:42
believed. I'm putting I'm I'm being put
00:34:44
down. I'm whether it's not even their
00:34:46
experience. it's just because of their
00:34:49
gender. And those are real those are
00:34:52
real questions. Does that mean that
00:34:53
that's gaslighting? Probably not all the
00:34:56
time. But for me to say, ah, that's
00:34:59
that's a dumb complaint. Uh, you know,
00:35:01
that's just complaining. In many ways,
00:35:03
when you start denying that reality,
00:35:05
then you have the same problem. Do you
00:35:07
know I am I've I've hired thousands of
00:35:08
people over the last decade and I have
00:35:12
to say sometimes it's it's difficult to
00:35:15
understand the plight of someone else
00:35:16
when you haven't lived their experience
00:35:18
like you haven't been a woman or
00:35:20
whatever. It's like very difficult. So,
00:35:22
you kind of just have to take them for
00:35:23
their word sometimes if you've not lived
00:35:24
it yourself or you can look at data or
00:35:26
whatever else.
00:35:27
>> And I do have to say that I have
00:35:29
experienced
00:35:31
>> male executives who were
00:35:35
extremely dismissive of their female
00:35:37
peers in a way that was 100%
00:35:41
inconsistent as it relates to genders.
00:35:43
What I mean by that is I can think of
00:35:45
several male executives over the years
00:35:47
who I observed
00:35:50
dismissing or diminishing or not giving
00:35:52
the woman in the room the same credit
00:35:54
really for no other reason than she was
00:35:56
a woman. And so it's a very real thing.
00:35:58
And it's not every man, I have to say
00:36:00
this, but there is a certain particular
00:36:01
type of person
00:36:03
>> who for some reason in my experience
00:36:06
would see a woman in the in the
00:36:08
workplace or in the high sort of upper
00:36:09
echelons of the professional um uh
00:36:11
environment as being less than them just
00:36:14
because of her gender. So when I hear,
00:36:16
you know, what you're saying about women
00:36:18
are predominantly come, you know, coming
00:36:19
to you talking about these issues of
00:36:20
gaslighting, it does kind of track with
00:36:22
what I've seen. I'll tell you this. I've
00:36:24
never had a man come to me in all this
00:36:27
time that I've been from my book to my
00:36:29
content this number of years ever say I
00:36:31
think I'm being gaslit. It is it has
00:36:34
always been the woman.
00:36:36
>> Never.
00:36:37
>> Never.
00:36:38
>> What about the conversation around like
00:36:40
dealing with narcissists? Cuz this feels
00:36:41
like it's kind of one and the same. The
00:36:43
words are used in the same sort of
00:36:45
vernacular but
00:36:46
>> Yeah.
00:36:47
>> Do you have men coming to you saying
00:36:48
that I think my partner's a narcissist?
00:36:50
Yes, you do.
00:36:50
>> Yeah, that I do have. Yeah, it's always
00:36:53
it's always they're married to one or
00:36:56
just got out of a relationship with one,
00:36:57
but it's never them.
00:36:59
>> And what what do you say to someone who
00:37:00
is dealing with an artist who is dealing
00:37:02
with someone who repeatedly gas
00:37:03
gaslights them? Let's say it's in the
00:37:04
context of work.
00:37:05
>> Yeah.
00:37:06
>> What are they meant to do? Quit their
00:37:08
job.
00:37:09
>> Well, that is an option. So, let's not
00:37:11
rule that out.
00:37:12
>> Okay.
00:37:12
>> Um if it's if it's worth it to you
00:37:14
because that's that's the question of
00:37:16
what's your what's your purpose here?
00:37:17
And this is where you're going to be
00:37:18
forever. Then there's some things we
00:37:21
need to put in place. But what are you
00:37:23
to do? You are to limit the interaction
00:37:26
like limit the exposure. Talk less
00:37:29
neutral statements.
00:37:32
So if you can many ways you can just
00:37:36
limit the amount of physicality of I
00:37:38
don't have to see you. I don't have to
00:37:40
communicate with you. I know you work
00:37:42
three doors down but I don't have to be
00:37:45
your best friend and you certainly don't
00:37:47
have to be mine. Two is understanding
00:37:49
the game that you're in. It's a it's a
00:37:52
game for narcissists of praise or
00:37:54
provoke. Meaning, if I am not showering
00:37:58
you with praise, then the narcissist
00:38:01
will turn to provoke in order to create
00:38:03
an argument for the same effect. They
00:38:06
they delight in frustration just as may
00:38:08
just as much as they delight in your
00:38:10
praise because they get the same type of
00:38:13
control. I have seen so many expert
00:38:16
witnesses in my field that are that I
00:38:19
what I would term are narcissists. They
00:38:21
they they can never possibly be wrong.
00:38:24
They they don't do empathy. And again,
00:38:27
this is me with the understanding of
00:38:30
hey, we all have narcissistic
00:38:31
tendencies. You know, we all have
00:38:33
narcissistic traits and narcissism is a
00:38:36
diagnosible condition that you can have.
00:38:38
I think more people would qualify more
00:38:41
than they think. But how do you handle
00:38:43
it daytoday is know knowing what kind of
00:38:46
game you're in and it's a game you're
00:38:47
just not going to play. I know I don't
00:38:49
have to say anything to that person.
00:38:50
Two, I'm going to limit my distance to
00:38:53
them. And three, I'm going to use
00:38:55
neutral statements. I'm going to use
00:38:57
neutral statements like that's good to
00:38:58
know. Thanks for sharing. Noted and
00:39:02
things that they can't grab on to and
00:39:04
continue to have in a conversation. When
00:39:07
you think of like the hallmarks of of of
00:39:09
a really really one of these types of
00:39:12
people, what are the way the
00:39:14
characteristics that I could should be
00:39:15
looking out for? If I'm dealing with one
00:39:18
such person who is is going to try and
00:39:19
manipulate me, it's going to try and
00:39:21
gaslight me. What what do they do? They
00:39:25
can never be happy for anybody but
00:39:27
themselves.
00:39:29
They can't be happy for you. They can't
00:39:30
be happy for other people. These are the
00:39:33
type that if you were to say, "Hey, did
00:39:35
you see that Stephen just got this
00:39:36
award? Isn't that so great? You just
00:39:38
nominated for whatever." And they go, "I
00:39:39
mean, that's I guess that's fine. You
00:39:41
know, I when I did this," and they start
00:39:43
talking about themselves.
00:39:45
They can never be happy for somebody
00:39:46
else. They can't be happy for you. It's
00:39:49
they have to find some way to turn the
00:39:51
conversation of why the world is so hard
00:39:54
and so pitiful for them that the world
00:39:56
was against them and they couldn't get
00:39:57
it, but they were just as deserving. I
00:39:59
mean, I guess that's fine. And I mean,
00:40:01
you know, I do this, but nobody nobody
00:40:03
listens. Nobody really cares. They find
00:40:04
that they have a very victim mentality.
00:40:07
So, two is a victim mentality.
00:40:08
Everything happens to them in some way.
00:40:11
And three, they can't feel for other
00:40:13
people. They don't do emotion. It's it's
00:40:18
always about the perception of what
00:40:20
others would think. They're very very
00:40:24
sensitive to how others might portray
00:40:27
them. So, they're going to give you a
00:40:28
different view than they give other
00:40:31
people. And so, the couple might be
00:40:33
terrible,
00:40:35
but for a narcissist, they're going to
00:40:37
put on face that the relationship is
00:40:38
perfect to everybody else. And everybody
00:40:40
goes, "You you must be so blessed to be
00:40:42
married to that person." And you're
00:40:43
going, "You kidding me? They're they're
00:40:46
fooling everybody." And it's a very
00:40:47
helpless position.
00:40:48
>> Have you ever had a narcissist try and
00:40:50
pray on you?
00:40:51
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the legal
00:40:54
field, man. Expert witnesses have
00:40:57
opinions to them that are
00:40:59
unquestionable. You can't this is their
00:41:01
opinion and nobody else could ever argue
00:41:03
with it when I have another expert who
00:41:05
says just the opposite. So a lot of the
00:41:07
times they are very condescending
00:41:11
you know that's fine and they have their
00:41:13
opinion and this is all there is and how
00:41:16
dumb of you to ever question me. And
00:41:18
usually what gives it away is if I feel
00:41:22
like this is somebody that okay they're
00:41:24
they can't be reasonable. They're never
00:41:26
going to give an inch on what's
00:41:27
reasonable.
00:41:29
I will ask this. I'll say this is
00:41:31
typically in a deposition. I'll say and
00:41:33
you think the juryy's going to like
00:41:34
that.
00:41:35
And or you think other people are going
00:41:37
to agree with you and all of a sudden
00:41:39
they kind of change in an instant to be
00:41:42
able to match what the jury is going to
00:41:44
think. So, if I were to say, and you
00:41:46
think and you think that's okay, and you
00:41:47
think others are going to find that
00:41:48
okay, and you think that the jury when
00:41:50
they hear this, they're they're all
00:41:52
going to agree with this very hardline
00:41:55
opinion. I've seen it every time. Or
00:41:58
they that's it's only when I reference
00:42:00
other people, the presentation of
00:42:03
themselves to other people that they
00:42:05
kind of put on a a show.
00:42:07
>> Why?
00:42:08
because they know that
00:42:11
the perception of the crowd is
00:42:15
everything. They need everybody to like
00:42:17
them, to fawn over them. They they want
00:42:20
their idea to to be the best. And so
00:42:23
they will manipulate the situation to be
00:42:25
the chameleon to to make sure that
00:42:27
everybody loves them at least in in
00:42:30
their mind. It's not a it's not a
00:42:32
reasonable thought. So they will
00:42:34
typically change their opinion to sound
00:42:36
more palatable even though they could
00:42:38
have admitted to that you know two hours
00:42:41
into the deposition.
00:42:42
>> Do they tend to talk more or less than
00:42:44
the average person in the room?
00:42:45
>> Much more.
00:42:48
>> Is there a thin line between just being
00:42:49
insecure and being a narcissist? Because
00:42:52
you know one of the things I was
00:42:53
thinking about is you said earlier that
00:42:54
they tend to bring everything back to
00:42:55
themselves. And I was thinking about all
00:42:57
the people that I know that if we were
00:42:59
having a conversation about your book
00:43:00
doing really really well, the first
00:43:02
response to that would be their mention
00:43:05
of their own book like they would
00:43:06
immediately bring it straight back to
00:43:07
something about them. And I was
00:43:08
wondering some of those people I just
00:43:09
have in the category of just being a
00:43:10
little bit insecure and that they just,
00:43:13
you know, they're a search for
00:43:14
validation. So I'm wondering where where
00:43:16
you think the line might be between sort
00:43:18
of narcissistic behavior and just like
00:43:20
extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a
00:43:22
line. Maybe extreme insecurity is
00:43:23
narcissism.
00:43:24
>> Both can be true. You know, I' I'd say
00:43:26
that
00:43:28
not all insecure people are narcissists,
00:43:30
but all narcissists are insecure.
00:43:32
>> Um, I would I would say that if I had to
00:43:36
give some kind of line, it would be the
00:43:40
interest for growth.
00:43:43
Insecure people are looking for ways to
00:43:45
grow and to secure and attach.
00:43:48
Narcissists, they're not looking for
00:43:50
anybody to attach on to. They're looking
00:43:54
for people to support them, you know, to
00:43:57
please them. And so it they have no
00:44:00
interest in growth. They to them they've
00:44:03
learned all they've have to learn. I I
00:44:05
am the best. I I cannot improve anymore.
00:44:07
That to me would be the difference.
00:44:09
>> When you dealt with narcissists in your
00:44:11
own life and in the courtroom,
00:44:14
what is the reason why they couldn't
00:44:15
prey on you? What did you do as defense
00:44:18
to stop their games, their typical games
00:44:20
working on you? I don't chase their
00:44:23
words.
00:44:26
Often, one of the biggest things I see
00:44:27
wrong in conversation
00:44:31
is a narcissist will, same for a
00:44:32
gaslighter, they'll dig a hole. All
00:44:35
right? And then they expect you to fill
00:44:38
it.
00:44:39
Meaning, they're going to say something
00:44:41
to frustrate you and you go, "No, no,
00:44:42
that's not what happened. Don't you
00:44:43
remember?" and you start chasing it and
00:44:45
then they just dig another hole and you
00:44:48
keep going and you keep going and you're
00:44:50
exhausted because all you've been doing
00:44:51
is trying to plug holes. You're not
00:44:53
having a real conversation.
00:44:55
And when I can give it a very clear
00:44:58
definition, a very clear signal of
00:45:02
noted, you know, I'm just going to stay
00:45:04
right there. I'm going to see I'm going
00:45:06
to put down the shovel and stay right
00:45:09
there with them. and maybe I'll say
00:45:11
something as neutral as got it. I don't
00:45:15
have to chase it. I don't have to say
00:45:16
anything. And and to me, the the people
00:45:20
that have those narcissistic traits,
00:45:22
once they realize that they're going to
00:45:23
have no game with you, that you're not
00:45:25
going to play, they find somebody else.
00:45:28
They find somebody. If you've ever had
00:45:30
somebody come to you and they're the
00:45:33
more emotionally toxic type of person,
00:45:36
they always have some kind of problem.
00:45:37
They come with you and they have this
00:45:38
problem. and you go, I I just I can't
00:45:39
right this moment. I will. And 10
00:45:42
minutes later, what's happened? They
00:45:43
don't have that issue. They've already
00:45:44
gone to talk to somebody else.
00:45:46
>> I was watching uh Dame Dash on the
00:45:48
Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've
00:45:50
seen it,
00:45:51
>> but it's really
00:45:51
>> another Breakfast Club,
00:45:52
>> but it's it's Dame Dash is on there
00:45:54
because he he was um he filed for
00:45:56
bankruptcy and Charlemagne is sat there
00:45:58
>> and Charlemagne is I've actually
00:46:00
interviewed both of them, both Dame and
00:46:01
Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is very
00:46:05
relaxed and every once in a while just
00:46:07
tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's
00:46:09
broke. And then Dame Dash is like very
00:46:13
like hotaded and like trying to prove
00:46:15
prove all the reasons why he's not broke
00:46:16
and like really like you know gassing
00:46:18
him. And I it was it was an interesting
00:46:20
it's an interesting video to watch. I
00:46:22
think it's the more recent one that came
00:46:23
out within the last year because it does
00:46:26
show in my view how to deal with someone
00:46:28
who has a very has a significant ego.
00:46:33
>> Yeah.
00:46:33
>> Which is Charlemagne just never changes
00:46:36
state. Like no matter what the volume
00:46:38
is, no matter how much emotion, no
00:46:40
matter when he starts calling him some
00:46:43
quite personal insults, Charlemagne's
00:46:46
demeanor, his tone, his posture,
00:46:49
>> yeah,
00:46:49
>> doesn't change.
00:46:50
>> Unbothered. unbothered. And you can see
00:46:52
it's super triggering that you just
00:46:54
can't get to this guy. Like it looks
00:46:56
like Dame is like really annoyed that he
00:46:57
and he tries to say more offensive
00:46:58
things. He calls you're a you're this,
00:47:00
you're that, the other.
00:47:01
>> And it's funny cuz I was watching it
00:47:02
this morning and it for me it kind of
00:47:04
tracks with a lot of the stuff you're
00:47:06
saying about like just not going with
00:47:07
them.
00:47:07
>> Yeah.
00:47:08
>> Just not following them where because
00:47:10
they want you to go somewhere and
00:47:12
there's a certain conflict they want to
00:47:14
get in with you and if you just kind of
00:47:15
refuse and just stay anchored to
00:47:17
whatever your point of view is, it's
00:47:18
it's funny to watch. They want to push
00:47:20
you.
00:47:21
>> Yeah.
00:47:21
>> Yeah. My my dad I can remember growing
00:47:24
up I'd be in the passenger seat. He's
00:47:26
driving
00:47:28
>> and you ever had it where somebody
00:47:30
you're in the passenger seat and
00:47:31
somebody's just rearing the bumper right
00:47:34
on them
00:47:34
>> and and I and I'd be looking in the side
00:47:36
mirror. I'm like I kind of start
00:47:38
stressing out for him. You know,
00:47:40
somebody's really riding the bumper, you
00:47:42
know, right behind him.
00:47:43
>> And I mean just like clockwork. what he
00:47:46
would do, we have shoulders on our in on
00:47:48
the roads there in Texas, and rather
00:47:51
than trying to speed up or get mad, he
00:47:53
would just kind of pull over to the
00:47:54
shoulder and he would say this every
00:47:55
time. He'd say, "Go on with your bad
00:47:57
self." Every time he go, "Go on with
00:47:59
your bad self in the rearview mirror."
00:48:00
Like, that's how unbothered he was by
00:48:03
that of I feel like so many people get
00:48:06
road rage as so many people talk out
00:48:08
loud to the cars while they're while
00:48:10
they're driving.
00:48:12
And he it just never got him worked up.
00:48:14
And realizing
00:48:16
my value and my worth of knowing who I
00:48:20
am is not at all determined
00:48:23
by
00:48:25
where you feel I should go. It goes back
00:48:27
to that idea of if you want to tell me
00:48:29
the sky is purple, knock yourself out.
00:48:32
You know, I I don't have to be right and
00:48:35
you don't have the ability to to push
00:48:37
me. I can move and you have your own. I
00:48:40
I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't
00:48:43
have to match anybody else's. So when
00:48:45
somebody is unbothered, it's not because
00:48:48
they don't care. It's not for lack of
00:48:50
care.
00:48:52
It's an understanding. It's discernment
00:48:55
of knowing
00:48:57
I know who I am in this moment and why
00:48:59
in the world would I try to be anybody
00:49:01
else?
00:49:02
>> Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all
00:49:04
be untriggerable?
00:49:06
It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure.
00:49:08
>> It's interesting because again, just
00:49:10
reflecting on that interview I watched
00:49:11
this morning, when Dame Dash calls
00:49:13
Charlemagne something really, really
00:49:15
offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I
00:49:17
immediately look at Charlemagne
00:49:19
to see his reaction to figure out if
00:49:22
what Dame Dash just said was true.
00:49:25
And do you see what I'm saying? So he he
00:49:26
turned to him and said, "You're ex,
00:49:28
>> right?"
00:49:29
>> And then Charlemagne just kind of
00:49:31
laughed and like
00:49:32
>> it just it was like water off a duck's
00:49:34
back. So immediately as the viewer I go,
00:49:35
"Well, that can't be true then because
00:49:36
Charlemagne doesn't seem to care."
00:49:38
>> Exactly. Well, it's it's not the lack of
00:49:41
a care. It's
00:49:44
it's just the opposite. It's all the
00:49:46
more care of knowing who he is. So, if I
00:49:52
were to tell you right now, I hate your
00:49:55
purple shirt. It's the most ugliest
00:49:58
purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen.
00:50:00
Like your shirt is so ugly in that
00:50:02
purple. Does it affect you whatsoever?
00:50:06
>> No, because I'm not wearing a purple
00:50:07
shirt for anyone that's an apple.
00:50:09
>> That's right. That's a good point.
00:50:11
Right. But you see how you you already
00:50:13
know the characteristics of of you. You
00:50:16
already know what you're wearing.
00:50:18
>> And it's not just your clothes. I'm I'm
00:50:20
wearing my confidence. I'm wearing
00:50:23
everything that your parents, your your
00:50:26
loved ones have instilled and put on
00:50:27
you. I am I am wearing the armor of my
00:50:30
faith. I I am I have all these other
00:50:32
things that I'm wearing. And if you want
00:50:35
to say my shirt's purple, that that
00:50:38
doesn't affect me at all because that's
00:50:39
that's not who I am. And so so often
00:50:42
people get mixed up of arguing about no,
00:50:45
I don't have a purple shirt on.
00:50:48
>> When why would you ever argue with that?
00:50:51
They they it's that quote by Abraham
00:50:54
Lincoln that I love.
00:50:57
if never argue with a fool because an
00:50:59
onlooker
00:51:01
>> can never know the difference, right?
00:51:03
And so it's it's knowing no, I I know
00:51:06
exactly who I am and what I'm wearing.
00:51:09
>> And this sort of speaks to the fact that
00:51:10
your reaction determines how onlookers
00:51:13
will interpret everything that's
00:51:15
happening.
00:51:17
>> Like, you know,
00:51:18
>> oh, the worst thing you could do to
00:51:19
somebody who insults you is laugh. I
00:51:21
mean, what does it do? It I mean, it it
00:51:23
it infuriates them, right? But when the
00:51:26
same thing with a bully, a bully says
00:51:28
something to you that they know is meant
00:51:31
to hurt you.
00:51:33
And if I were to turn around and say,
00:51:35
"Did you say that to to embarrass me?" I
00:51:38
mean, what are they going to do? They
00:51:39
they could say yes, they could say no.
00:51:41
But either way, you're realizing I'm not
00:51:43
going to get any reaction. What you're
00:51:45
showing them is for you to do this, it's
00:51:47
just not going to be fun for you. It's
00:51:49
going to be zero fun whatsoever for you.
00:51:51
And so, they'll find that with somebody
00:51:53
somebody else. It's it's always your
00:51:55
reaction that's going to determine how
00:51:59
the conversation goes forward.
00:52:01
>> There's a lot of people listening right
00:52:02
now that are a long way away from that.
00:52:04
Very easily triggered.
00:52:05
>> Yeah.
00:52:06
>> Seeking justice, you know, whatever it
00:52:09
might be. For those people, is it like a
00:52:11
muscle they have to build or is there
00:52:13
what is the journey to getting to this
00:52:15
level of sort of mastery?
00:52:16
>> It's a discipline. It is in the same way
00:52:20
that people invest in so many other
00:52:22
things in our life. We invest in our
00:52:24
health. We invest in self-help books. We
00:52:27
invest in the podcasts that we listen
00:52:29
to. It is the same. You have to invest
00:52:31
in your communication. We don't get
00:52:33
taught in school. We don't, you know, I
00:52:36
I went to law school. People think I
00:52:38
learned this in law school. No. Law
00:52:40
school teaches you how to read the law.
00:52:41
It doesn't teach you how to read people.
00:52:43
You had to. To me, if you are somebody
00:52:47
that is in a position of expertise and
00:52:49
to share something, it either came at
00:52:51
great personal cost or you're making it
00:52:53
up like it it it is something that you
00:52:56
have learned, right?
00:52:58
>> It's true. And so I mean whether it's
00:53:01
through skill, knowledge, training, it's
00:53:04
I've you want to know how that I know
00:53:06
these things because I've lived it. You
00:53:08
know, I I have been on the bad side.
00:53:09
I've been on the good side. And it's it
00:53:14
is not it's never something that's just
00:53:15
going to come to you.
00:53:17
>> We are emotional creatures and we're
00:53:19
hormonal creatures.
00:53:20
>> Mhm. So, how do how do you think about
00:53:22
our emotions, our hormones, our health,
00:53:24
our physical, cognitive state as it
00:53:26
relates to like walking into the
00:53:28
courtroom and being ready? Like how much
00:53:30
of it, you know, because if I've had
00:53:31
zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know,
00:53:33
hungry and whatever else and I'm had an
00:53:36
argument, I'm stressed about something,
00:53:37
it's going to be significantly harder to
00:53:39
show up and be a great communicator and
00:53:40
win the argument against somebody,
00:53:42
>> right?
00:53:43
>> So, do you think about these things
00:53:45
>> all the time? I mean, the emotions are
00:53:47
are right there connected to the words.
00:53:49
And what do you how do you prepare to be
00:53:51
ready for battle?
00:53:54
>> It's an emotional awareness of how I'm
00:53:57
feeling
00:53:59
and also how the other person is because
00:54:01
if I just respond me Yeah. If I respond
00:54:04
to their emotional reaction, I'll miss
00:54:06
it every time. Same thing in
00:54:08
relationships. If I respond to the
00:54:11
reaction, I'll lose that moment to
00:54:13
actually speak to the need. So even in
00:54:16
the courtroom for me, if I know that I'm
00:54:20
a little sleepy, I know I'm a little
00:54:22
hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know
00:54:24
what? I can either try and pretend that
00:54:26
I'm not. Or I might get up in front of
00:54:29
the jury and say, "Good morning,
00:54:30
everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a
00:54:32
little grumpy. I didn't need all that
00:54:33
much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?"
00:54:35
And everybody starts to kind of nod. And
00:54:36
now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to
00:54:39
my words, but now to the feeling. And
00:54:41
now you trust me more. I trust you more
00:54:45
because I'm being more authentic.
00:54:47
>> And do you think people should do that
00:54:49
in their own interpersonal relationships
00:54:51
which is just call out their state?
00:54:53
>> Absolutely. Because perfection is not
00:54:55
relatable. Struggle is emotions are. If
00:54:59
I were to come to you and say and you
00:55:02
say how are you and I go good
00:55:03
everything's good when it is not. Am I
00:55:06
being authentic or am I being fake? But
00:55:08
if I were to say, "Let me tell you, I've
00:55:11
had a morning and it's tested me in a
00:55:13
way I was not expecting and my mind is
00:55:16
just not here." Does that make you trust
00:55:18
me more or trust me less?
00:55:20
>> Trust me more
00:55:20
>> every time.
00:55:22
>> So, when you can share your struggles
00:55:23
with people, I'm not talking about your
00:55:24
deepest inner desire struggles. I'm
00:55:27
saying, let me put it this way. Sierra
00:55:31
and I check in with each other every
00:55:32
morning. It's my wife.
00:55:35
And it's only about 10 minutes after she
00:55:38
drops the kid off, uh, kids off. And
00:55:42
we kind of run through how we're doing.
00:55:44
And the number one thing she asks me or
00:55:46
tells me, he goes, "You told me a lot
00:55:48
about what you're doing. You haven't
00:55:50
told me about how you're feeling." And
00:55:52
that's that's the truth of the default,
00:55:55
I think, of a lot of men and a lot of
00:55:56
people. I'm going to tell you what's
00:55:57
going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm
00:56:00
doing. I haven't told you a lot about
00:56:01
how I'm feeling. And we store all that
00:56:04
stuff up because it's still there. But
00:56:06
if I can share with you,
00:56:09
what is my struggle? What's happening?
00:56:12
Not just the good, but more importantly
00:56:13
the the bad.
00:56:16
I mean that it's always going to bring
00:56:18
that authenticity into the play.
00:56:20
>> Women and men are very different in many
00:56:22
ways. And
00:56:24
>> yeah,
00:56:24
>> we're very different in many ways. Men
00:56:26
are I I don't know. It feels like men
00:56:28
just, you know, and again, I'm I'm
00:56:30
stereotyping here, so it's not all men
00:56:32
and
00:56:32
>> of course people are different, but just
00:56:34
speaking generally, the stereotype is
00:56:37
that men are a typically a bit more
00:56:39
emotionally composed or should I say
00:56:42
flat and women have uh more emotional
00:56:45
fluctuations. One could look at hormone
00:56:47
changes throughout the month and talk
00:56:49
about why that might be, etc., etc. I've
00:56:50
had many scientists here talk to me
00:56:52
about hormone fluctuations and how that
00:56:53
impacts how someone feels. But what this
00:56:56
means in our romantic relationships is
00:56:59
sometimes we meet each other on very
00:57:02
different wavelengths.
00:57:03
>> Yeah.
00:57:03
>> So in my relationship, my partner's
00:57:06
probably seen me cry once,
00:57:08
>> right?
00:57:09
>> In seven years, maybe twice, but
00:57:12
probably once.
00:57:14
I've probably seen her cry
00:57:17
500 times, maybe more.
00:57:19
>> Yeah.
00:57:19
>> So it feels it almost feels like I'm
00:57:22
just going to be completely honest
00:57:23
because I just think it's helpful. So
00:57:23
you can [ __ ] me up online if you want.
00:57:25
But I it sometimes feels like
00:57:29
we're we're a different species.
00:57:32
>> Like the way that I interact with my guy
00:57:33
friendss and the way that the sort of
00:57:36
wavelength that my romantic partner my
00:57:38
my my girlfriend operates on are very
00:57:41
very different. So it's very easy to
00:57:42
like misunderstand. And we spend a lot
00:57:44
of time talking about how men need to be
00:57:46
more emotional and more I don't know men
00:57:49
need to change how the how they are.
00:57:51
Yeah. Because it's the problem. But
00:57:54
what about the like what about the other
00:57:56
side of that which is
00:58:01
do
00:58:03
do women also need to think about
00:58:06
do we need to meet in the middle is what
00:58:09
I'm saying
00:58:10
>> there certainly is space to meet in the
00:58:12
middle
00:58:13
>> like who's right in that I don't know is
00:58:14
is is there a person that's right in
00:58:16
this configuration am I meant to be way
00:58:18
more emotional and be or or is she meant
00:58:21
to be way more composed cuz I I think
00:58:22
that's often how both sides feel. They
00:58:25
feel like, why aren't you coming to my
00:58:26
wavelength on this issue? But I think
00:58:28
here's what you're missing. She would be
00:58:29
much more composed if you would be more
00:58:31
emotional.
00:58:34
>> And so a lot of the times what I find in
00:58:37
my own marriage is when I show emotion,
00:58:41
the more composed she is.
00:58:43
>> I mean, if I start screaming and crying,
00:58:45
I I think my girlfriend's
00:58:46
>> I'm not saying screaming. I'm I'm saying
00:58:48
show emotion. What kind of emotion
00:58:51
>> of being in it with her?
00:58:52
>> And what does that look like?
00:58:54
>> That means you're going to say things
00:58:56
that make her feel it. There's a
00:59:00
difference if I just go static. That's
00:59:02
what happens to me a lot. Uh truthfully,
00:59:04
is let's say we're in an argument about
00:59:06
something or something came up and see
00:59:10
emotional about it. If I dismiss it,
00:59:14
okay, this is so dumb really right now.
00:59:16
This is because arguments never come at
00:59:17
the most opportune time. They come at
00:59:19
the worst possible time. Yeah, that's
00:59:21
hello. That's all relationships. If I
00:59:23
dismiss it, right, does that make her
00:59:25
come closer to me or further away from
00:59:27
me? And if I'm pushing her further away
00:59:29
from me, why would she not be more
00:59:31
emotional? Why why would she why would
00:59:33
she not be further away from me if I
00:59:36
dismiss that? For every woman to be more
00:59:40
emotional as a man, tears are not
00:59:42
necessary.
00:59:44
connection is being in it is saying
00:59:47
things that make her feel that you're
00:59:49
you're genuinely feeling it. The
00:59:51
difference I find with men and what I
00:59:53
struggle with is I can say that I'm sad.
00:59:56
I have a hard time expressing sad. I can
00:59:59
say that I'm really regretful. I have a
01:00:01
hard time
01:00:03
expressing that. I think that is
01:00:06
something that happens a lot with most
01:00:09
relationships and I think that happens a
01:00:10
lot with men of we were emotional and we
01:00:14
got taught early that
01:00:17
you you were not to cry. We I couldn't
01:00:19
even tell you how many times I ever saw
01:00:20
my dad cry.
01:00:22
>> I think this is it. The modeling we had
01:00:24
as well is my dad was either angry or
01:00:27
completely static. And when I say angry,
01:00:29
he was very very rarely angry. But but
01:00:31
when I saw him engage with my mom on an
01:00:34
emotional level, it would be
01:00:36
>> him yelling back,
01:00:38
>> right?
01:00:39
>> If he wasn't yelling back, he was
01:00:41
completely just like he was just very
01:00:43
calm, static, emotional. There was no in
01:00:46
between.
01:00:46
>> Yeah. It's it all comes down to repair.
01:00:50
How quickly you get to repair. That
01:00:54
means can I validate the feeling that
01:00:57
she has?
01:00:59
Validation
01:01:00
is repair. It's not weakness. It's
01:01:03
repair. In my world,
01:01:06
relationships don't fall apart because
01:01:08
of one big failure. They fall apart
01:01:10
because of a hundred moments where
01:01:14
repair could have happened and it
01:01:16
didn't. You just chose not to. Or you
01:01:19
could have said, "I'm sorry," but you
01:01:20
withheld it. I could have chose to
01:01:22
validate how you're feeling, but I said
01:01:23
that's stupid. And it's it's those the
01:01:26
hundreds of those little bitty moments
01:01:28
where all of a sudden, no wonder your
01:01:31
your world's apart because you chose in
01:01:33
those little bitty moments not to do the
01:01:35
repair because you said, "Ah, this is so
01:01:36
stupid. This so small." Yeah, it is
01:01:38
small. All the more reason why you
01:01:40
should repair pretty quickly. And so
01:01:42
when you can validate those concerns,
01:01:46
even when you say she's being emotional,
01:01:48
you're not.
01:01:50
When you go into that static mode, when
01:01:51
I go into that static mode, it's a
01:01:53
choice by me to do something different,
01:01:57
not say the thing I always say, not be
01:01:59
dismissive, not find ways to try and
01:02:02
convince her that she shouldn't feel
01:02:04
this way, but if I validate, if I say
01:02:08
things like, I can see how you feel that
01:02:10
way. If that's how you interpreted it,
01:02:14
you know what? I don't blame you for
01:02:15
feeling that way. I I can see that. That
01:02:17
sounds scary. That sounds frustrating.
01:02:19
If I can choose that it's it's this like
01:02:24
this isn't the key for me and trust me
01:02:26
I'm talking to myself here.
01:02:28
>> Yeah.
01:02:28
>> Right. Because every every guy I feel
01:02:30
like can be like, "Okay, this is right."
01:02:32
And if I can
01:02:35
make the hard choice in that moment to
01:02:36
put aside my frustration just for a
01:02:38
moment, put aside my personal
01:02:40
frustration
01:02:42
and validate the feeling and say words
01:02:46
that speak to her need, the need to feel
01:02:50
heard, the need to feel safe, the need
01:02:52
to feel like she's not being too much.
01:02:55
Then all of a sudden, it all shrinks.
01:02:58
And you know what? my frustration kind
01:03:00
of goes away. Why? Because everything's
01:03:02
better now. We've we've had moments of
01:03:04
repair. And then if I still am really
01:03:06
frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey,
01:03:09
can I can I bring up something to you
01:03:10
that you said that's really bothering
01:03:12
me? And then you do it.
01:03:14
>> How as a man do you know that you're not
01:03:18
setting a bad precedence for the future?
01:03:21
And what I mean here is
01:03:22
>> Yeah. if I constantly, you know, justify
01:03:25
how she's feeling and I and I seek
01:03:27
repair and then when she's happy, I just
01:03:28
let it go. There's I think sometimes
01:03:31
there's a worry as a man that if you
01:03:36
just lay down and take everything, then
01:03:37
you're just going to get more stuff in
01:03:38
the future. Like you're setting a bad
01:03:40
precedence for the future of this
01:03:41
relationship where no, sometimes
01:03:42
actually no, I wasn't in the wrong or oh
01:03:44
no, I did I I do disagree with this.
01:03:46
>> Right? And I think I've observed a lot
01:03:49
of relationships, especially with some
01:03:50
of my guy friends where because they
01:03:52
like never stood up for themselves,
01:03:54
they're now like living in a prison,
01:03:56
>> right?
01:03:56
>> They like never stood up for themselves.
01:03:59
>> Yes.
01:03:59
>> And so they're they've kind of lost all
01:04:01
of their autonomy and agency and control
01:04:03
and they,
01:04:04
>> you know, even when you're listening to
01:04:05
this, there's probably people you can
01:04:06
think of in your life where the guy has
01:04:08
always opted for an easy life in the
01:04:10
short term and now over the long term,
01:04:12
he has a really hard one.
01:04:13
>> Yes.
01:04:14
>> And again, men and women,
01:04:15
>> of course. So this is the balance I'm
01:04:18
trying to understand in your view is you
01:04:20
know when do you pick the fight and when
01:04:21
do you say no that's not
01:04:24
versus just laying down and taking it.
01:04:26
This is quite per this is quite personal
01:04:28
to me as well because I think my dad did
01:04:29
that a bit too much. I think my dad, he
01:04:32
never he never chose to fight. And then
01:04:34
I look I look at how that played out
01:04:36
over 20 years and I'm like, damn, it's
01:04:38
completely changed me because it means
01:04:40
that I will now go through the conflict
01:04:45
>> and stand up for myself when I hit a
01:04:47
place where I'm like that I'm not going
01:04:49
to be able to honor that for you for the
01:04:51
next 30 years. I will stand my ground.
01:04:54
Do you know if there's like an area
01:04:55
where um we might my say my girlfriend's
01:04:57
unhappy about a certain thing I do.
01:04:59
>> Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm
01:05:01
going to be able to promise to not do
01:05:02
that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years,
01:05:04
if I if I'm unwilling to change, Yes. I
01:05:07
have to stand my ground because if I
01:05:09
concede today, it's hell tomorrow.
01:05:11
>> Yeah. What what I'm hearing what I'm
01:05:14
hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my
01:05:20
rights, fear of my
01:05:23
>> dominance.
01:05:24
>> Yeah. Like my freedom being Yeah. Well,
01:05:26
it's it's you want to hear the probably
01:05:28
the number one word you'll hear with
01:05:31
relationships that are on the brink.
01:05:33
It's caged. Men feels caged. You know,
01:05:36
the man feels caged. And really all that
01:05:39
is, it's a lack of confidence
01:05:42
of knowing
01:05:45
if I am willing to do something
01:05:49
different,
01:05:52
then I can't have anything else. So it's
01:05:54
it's it's thinking in terms of
01:05:59
zero sum. See, both can be true. I can
01:06:03
you can still validate how she's feeling
01:06:07
and not at all touch what you still know
01:06:09
to be true. So you can still disagree
01:06:11
with her, but every time we go into a
01:06:14
conversation, we walk in with a need, a
01:06:17
need to feel loved, understood, it is
01:06:19
always depth. Like you think of um like
01:06:23
a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if
01:06:27
when she was small and she screamed or
01:06:31
she cried or told me no, still tells me
01:06:33
no, you know, of all these things and I
01:06:35
just said no. Are you kidding me? You're
01:06:37
going to tell me and I you're crying
01:06:38
right now? Really? And I get all upset
01:06:40
when she screams. But with kids, we
01:06:43
don't do that. We go she's hungry. She's
01:06:45
tired. She's scared. M
01:06:48
>> and we just forget that we're all just
01:06:50
big kids and we all have those like
01:06:52
hidden needs underneath us and so you
01:06:56
still can stand your ground and say
01:07:00
so let's run it. So let's say for
01:07:02
example
01:07:03
>> an example a specific example from my
01:07:04
ex-girlfriend I was on my phone in bed
01:07:06
and I was sending a message cuz there's
01:07:07
something going on my in my business
01:07:08
back in the UK and I was in I was in
01:07:10
Asia at the time.
01:07:11
>> Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted
01:07:14
to make a rule where there was never any
01:07:16
phones in bed ever. I could never touch
01:07:19
my phone in the bedroom.
01:07:20
>> Right?
01:07:20
>> And as I thought this through, I
01:07:21
thought, God, I thought about all the
01:07:23
scenarios where I might need to touch my
01:07:24
phone in the bedroom. And what would I I
01:07:28
realized that what would end up
01:07:29
happening is I just wouldn't come into
01:07:30
the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in
01:07:32
the in the toilet or the shower or I
01:07:34
just like I wouldn't come to bed if I
01:07:35
needed to do something on my phone,
01:07:36
>> right? And so the conversation went
01:07:39
where I was like I I realized in this
01:07:41
moment I had to kind of like not lay
01:07:44
down on this issue because I would
01:07:45
disappoint her in the future.
01:07:47
>> I was setting myself up to fail in the
01:07:49
future if I if I accepted this and made
01:07:51
her some kind of promise or you know
01:07:53
agreed that we I wasn't going to touch
01:07:54
my phone ever again in the bedroom.
01:07:57
>> And so that was one such example where
01:07:58
I'm like I think I actually need to
01:08:00
stand my ground a bit here or I'm
01:08:01
setting myself up for a future
01:08:02
expectation I can't meet.
01:08:05
So in that moment, what did you think
01:08:07
her need was?
01:08:08
>> Her need was connection. And she was
01:08:10
interpreting me being on the phone in
01:08:12
that space as a disconnection in some
01:08:14
way.
01:08:15
>> And could it possibly be perceived as
01:08:18
that?
01:08:18
>> 100%.
01:08:19
>> Okay.
01:08:19
>> But it wasn't the phone. It was the it
01:08:21
was the it was me not it was her not
01:08:25
feeling connected I in my view it at
01:08:27
that moment in time in that particular
01:08:29
week because I was so busy in that
01:08:31
particular week that I think she was
01:08:33
trying to find a a symptom or a tool or
01:08:37
a guarantee or a promise to express the
01:08:40
feeling of disconnection. So that's why
01:08:41
I look back on it and go it was actually
01:08:42
something else that was just a symptom
01:08:43
of a feeling she had at that moment in
01:08:45
time probably.
01:08:45
>> Right. But that was an example where
01:08:47
like I if id conceded it would have it
01:08:51
would not have been sustainable. There
01:08:52
would have been arguments in the future.
01:08:53
>> I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying
01:08:56
there are times that if you want the key
01:08:59
to the relationship, it is putting her
01:09:02
comfort over your inconvenience.
01:09:04
>> So what should I have done in that
01:09:05
situation? Give me some advice. Do you
01:09:07
think?
01:09:09
>> Well, you've already kind of named it.
01:09:11
one, she's it's not you saying what the
01:09:14
wrong thing to say is, "Well, you were
01:09:16
just on your phone. I mean, you just I
01:09:18
mean, you're on your phone all your
01:09:19
time. You're on the phone all the time.
01:09:20
What are you talking about?" And you
01:09:21
start arguing because now you're you're
01:09:24
responding to the reaction. You're not
01:09:26
addressing the need. If you were to slow
01:09:28
down
01:09:29
and say, "Look, I I still want to be
01:09:33
connected with you. Is there any kind of
01:09:36
place where I can still take care of
01:09:38
what I need to take care of?" and also
01:09:41
be connected to you. Or if there's a
01:09:43
situation where you say, "Well, what
01:09:45
about this?"
01:09:47
Before I just get my phone and grab it,
01:09:49
I'm going to tell you what I'm doing
01:09:50
ahead of time or I'm going to ask.
01:09:54
Maybe that's where it is. You don't want
01:09:55
to ask, "Hey, I
01:09:58
Greg is supposed to email me some
01:10:01
slides or a deck or whatever. Can I
01:10:04
check that out real quick?" You hear how
01:10:05
she's probably going to say yes. But the
01:10:07
fact that you are saying, "Hey, I'm
01:10:09
acknowledging our connection right now."
01:10:12
And see, it might make you uncomfortable
01:10:13
saying, "No, I don't I don't like
01:10:14
anybody telling me what to do. I don't
01:10:16
have to I don't want to report to
01:10:17
anybody." Okay, that's that's fine.
01:10:19
Well, then you just know that connection
01:10:22
is always going to be weak. And so, you
01:10:23
you're signing your name to that. I
01:10:26
don't think I mean there's I have lots
01:10:28
of thoughts on phones in houses and
01:10:31
where they should go, but if you were to
01:10:34
have instead of arguing the what are you
01:10:37
talking about? You're on your phone all
01:10:38
all the time. And instead said,
01:10:42
I can see how that would make you feel
01:10:45
like I'm not paying attention to you.
01:10:47
And letting her respond to that and you
01:10:49
saying, look, I don't want to me being
01:10:51
on this. This is not at all me trying to
01:10:53
signal that I'm not trying to be here
01:10:56
with you. I'm trying to escape on you
01:10:58
and have that conversation. And that's
01:11:00
where you can say it is important to me
01:11:02
that I have these things and for me to
01:11:04
be able to connect with you and kind of
01:11:05
rest my brain. I need to take care of
01:11:07
these things. What's the best way that I
01:11:10
can do that? I think then that's when
01:11:12
you actually are able to have a
01:11:13
conversation of like let's make a g game
01:11:15
plan that makes sense because
01:11:18
if you you put your inconvenience over
01:11:21
her comfort she will always discredit
01:11:25
that to you your bank account will
01:11:26
always continue to to go low
01:11:30
and if but if you say look I I'm willing
01:11:32
to do a little bit of inconvenient
01:11:34
things to make you feel better make you
01:11:37
more comfortable I mean that that only
01:11:39
grows your account I mean that that when
01:11:42
when you have a relationship that can
01:11:45
last a whole lot longer.
01:11:47
>> I think I'm slightly traumatized because
01:11:49
um I I think the model that I had of
01:11:53
relationships meant that someone can
01:11:56
increasingly sort of encroach on your
01:11:57
freedom.
01:11:58
>> Yes.
01:11:59
>> Until you are virtually powerless.
01:12:01
>> I think that's a lot of guys. And
01:12:03
>> I've felt that. I've certainly felt
01:12:04
that.
01:12:05
>> Yeah. So I I try and fight back and
01:12:07
sometimes I think I overdo it. And this
01:12:09
is what this is one such example where
01:12:11
actually objectively when I hear myself
01:12:12
say she asked me not to like be in on my
01:12:16
phone in bed. I'm like well it's kind of
01:12:17
a reasonable request to be honest. Like
01:12:19
the bedroom can be a place where we just
01:12:20
like go on the phones. I could just do
01:12:21
it in my office and then come to bed
01:12:22
when I'm ready.
01:12:23
>> Right.
01:12:24
>> But I think my I get my backup because
01:12:26
I've just got so many examples of men
01:12:28
who like didn't stand up for themselves.
01:12:30
>> Yes.
01:12:30
>> And then were rendered powerless down
01:12:31
the line. So it's like if I give you
01:12:33
this then tomorrow you're going to say
01:12:34
maybe you can't be on my phone in the
01:12:36
kitchen
01:12:36
>> and then maybe I can't be on my phone in
01:12:38
the bathroom. And then so I just
01:12:39
thought, well, if I just stand up for
01:12:40
myself here, then I just hold hold off.
01:12:43
>> What I'm not at all saying is that the
01:12:45
guy go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And
01:12:47
then she asks for something. I go,
01:12:48
"Yeah, sure. That's fine." And you just
01:12:49
you're super passive with everything.
01:12:51
That's where I think you do feel like
01:12:52
you're just you look around, you you've
01:12:54
given up everything to where you don't
01:12:56
feel like I I have anything to to grab
01:12:58
on to.
01:12:59
>> I want to throw in another example that
01:13:00
a lot of people relate to. A lot of men
01:13:01
have like a hobby with with their guy
01:13:03
friends, right?
01:13:04
>> Like watching the football, talking [ __ ]
01:13:06
in a group chat. I think it's so
01:13:09
important to defend those things.
01:13:10
>> Absolutely.
01:13:11
>> Even for her attraction to you.
01:13:13
>> Like I think I I have no evidence to say
01:13:15
that this is true. It's just a feeling.
01:13:17
I think to some degree that my partner
01:13:18
likes the fact that I'll stand up for
01:13:20
myself in certain in certain areas and
01:13:22
that I'll say, "No, no, no, no. This is
01:13:23
me time. This is for me."
01:13:24
>> I agree.
01:13:25
>> And I can imagine the opposite, the
01:13:26
pacivity or kind of rolling over as
01:13:29
being a really like unattractive thing.
01:13:31
>> Absolutely. I I think where you are
01:13:34
laying yourself down or just rolling
01:13:36
over that is that can be very
01:13:38
unattractive that it's you need to have
01:13:40
a backbone. At the same time, you can't
01:13:42
be so extreme that your way is the only
01:13:44
way. But when you choose to say, "No,
01:13:45
no, this is I'm going to willing to take
01:13:47
a stand here." Then that's I think to me
01:13:50
it sends a signal of strength, right?
01:13:52
Strength of mind, strength of will. But
01:13:54
for me, when you have those things that
01:13:56
are your hobbies, the things that you
01:13:58
really like, a sign of a good
01:14:00
relationship is that she's going to be
01:14:02
happy, you get to do those because they
01:14:04
make you happy. Even though she might
01:14:06
hate it and think it's annoying and it's
01:14:08
weird and you know, you're taking up
01:14:09
that space in the garage and whatever,
01:14:12
but if it makes you happy and they know
01:14:15
that this is your space and this is your
01:14:17
time because I I you have to have those
01:14:20
things that fill you up, right? And the
01:14:24
truth is the marriage isn't enough. The
01:14:26
kids aren't enough. Your job's aren't
01:14:27
enough. You have to have things that
01:14:30
personally for you by yourself. If your
01:14:32
thing is to go to a pond and go feed
01:14:35
ducks, go do it. You know, to to be able
01:14:37
to fill yourself up. If you if
01:14:41
like I I I know for parents, early
01:14:43
parents, there's this this mindset of I
01:14:46
have to be with my kid all the time. I I
01:14:48
can't ever leave my kid. That I need to
01:14:49
just be there.
01:14:51
But what you find is you'll be so much
01:14:54
better when you actually go take care of
01:14:56
yourself and go on that guy trip, uh, go
01:14:59
play that round of golf or whatever it
01:15:01
is that's actually going to feed you and
01:15:03
fill you up and then I can be there for
01:15:06
you all the more.
01:15:07
>> I think some people's partners,
01:15:09
they don't they're not like that. Some
01:15:11
people are in a relationship where their
01:15:12
partner cuts out as much of these things
01:15:16
as they possibly can. Yeah.
01:15:17
>> So that they can control their partner.
01:15:19
I mean, we I think we've all got a
01:15:20
friend in a group chat.
01:15:22
>> Oh, yeah.
01:15:22
>> Who
01:15:24
>> has kind of like seems to have lost all
01:15:25
their freedom and their autonomy and
01:15:27
agency since they've been in that
01:15:28
relationship.
01:15:28
>> They'd say they're on a leash.
01:15:29
>> Yeah. They're on a leash. Like they can
01:15:30
never come to the thing.
01:15:31
>> Mhm.
01:15:33
>> That's not okay.
01:15:34
>> And it appears to be a consequence of
01:15:37
boundaries, like not
01:15:40
reinforcing your boundaries early. It
01:15:44
appears to me to be a bit of a slippery
01:15:46
slope boundaries.
01:15:47
>> Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like
01:15:49
where you like you kind of make a
01:15:50
concession and because you've made a
01:15:52
concession, they're more likely to
01:15:53
pursue another concession,
01:15:55
>> right?
01:15:55
>> And then before you know it, you're
01:15:57
behind bars alone.
01:16:00
>> Yeah. And and frustrated and wondering
01:16:02
how you how you got here. I know we've
01:16:04
spoke about boundaries in the past. To
01:16:07
me, it it ultimately comes comes down to
01:16:11
am I protecting the priority? So, if I
01:16:15
know that my marriage is the priority,
01:16:17
I'm going to set boundaries that protect
01:16:18
that. I mean, for me in my life right
01:16:21
now, whether I'm working on a book or
01:16:24
speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's
01:16:27
am I setting the boundary up to be
01:16:28
protecting my my family in my
01:16:31
relationship.
01:16:33
So, you have to first define what is the
01:16:36
priority here. So if the priority is
01:16:38
knowing that
01:16:41
we want to be you and your partner want
01:16:44
to be in a relationship and you know
01:16:46
make sure that Thursday is date night.
01:16:48
Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on
01:16:50
date night. There's certain things that
01:16:52
just aren't movable. The answer is no.
01:16:54
And when you can have those really hard
01:16:55
nos, it makes feeling the time of
01:16:59
everything else all that much easier.
01:17:02
But that's it. I mean it ultimately
01:17:04
comes down to are you being real about
01:17:06
it? Are you being fake about it?
01:17:08
>> In your view, you talk about being nice
01:17:10
and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk
01:17:12
about this on your podcast. What's the
01:17:14
difference between being a nice person
01:17:16
and a kind person? And which one should
01:17:17
I aspire to be? Stop being nice at the
01:17:21
expense of being real. So nice is
01:17:25
something that we got taught really
01:17:26
early on. Hey, be nice. Play nice.
01:17:30
And if you believe forever and always
01:17:33
that being nice serves you well, you
01:17:36
will ultimately serve it. You will
01:17:38
people please. You will only choose to
01:17:40
say the nice thing. You will nice is
01:17:44
very surface.
01:17:46
If you went on a date with somebody and
01:17:48
I was like, "How was a date?" And you
01:17:50
said, "She was nice."
01:17:51
>> Yuck. Yuck.
01:17:53
>> Yeah. Does does that mean that was good?
01:17:55
No. Of course. But you're want to say
01:17:56
the nice thing. And so it becomes very
01:18:00
much about pleasantries of what's
01:18:03
something that that is politically
01:18:05
correct or whatever it is. Kind is very
01:18:09
deep. It's related to the word kin. It's
01:18:11
it's connection. So where nice is
01:18:14
concerned about surface, kind is worried
01:18:16
about connection. So
01:18:20
nice people say, "Oh, I can't tell them
01:18:21
the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice.
01:18:23
That wouldn't be nice. I can't say
01:18:25
that." kind says, "I care about you
01:18:28
enough to say the truth." That I I care
01:18:32
about you enough to tell you the truth.
01:18:34
So when you have the chance, don't
01:18:36
choose nice at the expense of being
01:18:39
real. Choose the kind thing. Like if you
01:18:42
and I were in a conversation and I was
01:18:46
like, I could really I could just go,
01:18:48
"Yeah, man. That sounds great with the
01:18:50
decision you're going to make because I
01:18:51
just I don't want to upset you. That
01:18:53
that wouldn't be nice." versus me
01:18:55
saying, "Stephen, I I have to tell you,
01:18:58
man,
01:18:59
this doesn't feel right to me." Which
01:19:01
one's the kind thing of of telling you
01:19:05
the actual truth? It's being authentic
01:19:06
to it. So, a lot of people, they they
01:19:08
look back and they're just people
01:19:09
pleasing. That's all they've they've
01:19:10
been because they've always chosen
01:19:12
what's nice, not what's kind.
01:19:14
>> You must get a lot of messages from a
01:19:16
lot of people pleasers
01:19:17
>> all the time.
01:19:18
>> And what is it they want from you?
01:19:20
They're wanting to know how to stop
01:19:22
pleasing other people and to start start
01:19:24
pleasing themselves. Like how to I
01:19:27
always say that there's not a problem
01:19:29
with people pleasing as long as you're
01:19:30
one of them. Yeah. Of of
01:19:33
it's okay to do things that other people
01:19:36
ask you to do and you want to serve
01:19:37
other people. I'm not saying it in a as
01:19:39
a servitude way of I can never have any
01:19:42
of my own voice. It's it's where you
01:19:47
constantly
01:19:48
are put yourself in inconvenient
01:19:53
places for the sake of other people
01:19:55
hoping that they will see your true
01:19:57
value. So they conflate
01:20:01
the pleasure of others with the value of
01:20:03
themselves.
01:20:04
And so meaning I mean nothing to myself
01:20:07
if you're not happy with me. I mean
01:20:10
nothing to myself if if I can't please
01:20:12
you. you you want this? Oh, okay. I'll
01:20:13
go get it. Oh, you need this. Let me do
01:20:15
this. Oh, I already thought about this.
01:20:16
You love this. And they've forgotten
01:20:20
their own sense. And so, I've met people
01:20:22
that have, you know, a lot of it's also
01:20:25
early childhood, right? They they
01:20:27
learned that to save the marriage
01:20:30
between mom and dad, they need to be
01:20:33
everything to everybody. They have to
01:20:34
give up. They they've missed childhood
01:20:36
in order to please everybody else. And
01:20:40
so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's
01:20:43
a survival skill of knowing for me to
01:20:45
have to survive in this, for me to have
01:20:48
worth, well, I can't do it unless
01:20:50
everybody else is happy with me.
01:20:52
>> Are there any case studies that come to
01:20:53
mind of people that have read your work
01:20:55
and have made real transformations that
01:20:57
have shocked you or made you happy or
01:21:01
proven to you the profoundity of being
01:21:03
able to take control of conversation?
01:21:06
We took a a survey poll within my
01:21:08
membership and it was already I think it
01:21:12
was like 93% of people with even in the
01:21:14
first
01:21:16
three chapters of my book it had already
01:21:20
significantly impacted them in their job
01:21:23
their family and exactly what they were
01:21:25
reading the book for because everybody
01:21:26
picks it up for the conversation they
01:21:28
have in their mind. you know, they
01:21:30
people don't watch my content to handle
01:21:32
to know how to handle the last
01:21:33
conversation. They watch to know how to
01:21:36
handle the the next one. And so to be
01:21:39
able to provide the results that they're
01:21:41
wanting
01:21:43
is a is a is a blessing.
01:21:46
I've just finished writing my third
01:21:47
book. I haven't firmed up the title yet,
01:21:49
but I have started mocking up some
01:21:51
different designs. And I've been doing
01:21:53
this with Adobe Express, which is one of
01:21:55
our sponsors. What I love about Adobe
01:21:56
Express is that it makes it so easy for
01:21:58
me to obsess over the tiniest details.
01:22:00
The typography, the font, the color, the
01:22:02
text placement, the stuff that might
01:22:04
sound petty to most people, but actually
01:22:06
compounds to create something that
01:22:08
stands out, something that's one better
01:22:11
than the rest. And designing my cover
01:22:12
art has reminded me of how many creative
01:22:14
things I've learned over the year. But
01:22:16
it's also reminded me that there are so
01:22:17
many creative minds around me that are
01:22:19
also sitting on their own secrets. So,
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I've created the one better guide in
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discover how you can become one better
01:22:47
than the rest. Is there a particular
01:22:49
moment of conflict which you stays with
01:22:51
you the most when you think about a
01:22:54
difficult conversation in your life?
01:22:57
>> Yeah, there was one that I I talk about
01:23:01
in my book that was probably the most
01:23:03
gut-wrenching at that time was me
01:23:05
leaving the the law firm where I was at
01:23:07
and having to talk to my dad about
01:23:08
leaving that firm. But that's let's say
01:23:11
that's in the the book. What's fresh for
01:23:14
me now, you want to talk about that? I
01:23:16
mean, what's fresh for me now is
01:23:17
conversations that I've had with my
01:23:20
wife, with Sierra, and I'm having a hard
01:23:24
time
01:23:27
reaching and she's having a hard time
01:23:29
reaching for me, where I kind of just go
01:23:32
static
01:23:34
where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse,
01:23:37
or I I'm trying to and I have a hard
01:23:39
time expressing it. So the best thing I
01:23:41
can do in that mind is I use my words to
01:23:44
be able to say,
01:23:46
you know, I I feel regret for what's
01:23:49
happened or what I've done and I may not
01:23:52
be shown it right now, but I this is not
01:23:54
something I'm proud of. To be at least
01:23:56
able to show in my words how I'm
01:23:58
feeling. So it let's say for example
01:24:01
it's
01:24:03
about anything related to it could be
01:24:06
any argument really with a a husband and
01:24:09
a wife or a spouse or partner or
01:24:10
whatever it is. But we had one not too
01:24:14
long ago where we knew we were going to
01:24:17
be traveling for a bit and sometimes if
01:24:21
it's just the two of us what's going to
01:24:22
happen? You're going to you're going to
01:24:24
have some spats. about probably the
01:24:26
dumbest things you could probably have a
01:24:28
fight about, but that's what what
01:24:29
happens. And I said to her, I was like,
01:24:33
"Well, that, you know, if we do this and
01:24:36
do that, you we'll probably we're not
01:24:38
probably going to argue about it. It's
01:24:39
going to be fine." And she said to me,
01:24:42
she said, "Well,
01:24:44
either way, it's good."
01:24:46
Meaning, if you don't argue about
01:24:48
something, great. But if we do argue
01:24:50
about it, that's good, too. to be able
01:24:52
to see it as a chance to understand each
01:24:55
other a little bit more, to know each
01:24:56
other a little bit more. And
01:25:00
it's it's it's not without being
01:25:03
radically honest um with the person you
01:25:06
want to be with.
01:25:08
And that's that's hard for a lot of
01:25:10
people. I had a friend of mine say to me
01:25:12
the other day that the thing that annoys
01:25:13
him most about his wife is just like how
01:25:15
long she takes to get ready. And he like
01:25:16
really like offloaded it to me in a way
01:25:18
where I'm like this is a problem for
01:25:20
him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get
01:25:22
ready and she's like, which means
01:25:24
they're always late to things. A lot of
01:25:25
guys can relate to this, including
01:25:26
myself. But the way he said it to me was
01:25:28
was surprising. And I I remember
01:25:30
thinking, should he just go and have
01:25:32
this conversation with her or is this
01:25:35
like an illegitimate concern to raise?
01:25:37
And I think there sometimes with, you
01:25:39
know, because you were talking about
01:25:40
your experience with Sierra and her
01:25:42
saying like either way, it's a good
01:25:43
thing. Are all arguments
01:25:46
warranted? Like is that argument you
01:25:48
take too long to get ready and it's
01:25:49
pissing me off?
01:25:51
Is that a a valid thing to raise with
01:25:55
your partner?
01:25:57
>> In therapy, they say if it's hysterical,
01:25:59
it's historical.
01:26:01
Meaning, if it's really that big of a
01:26:03
deal, then there's probably something
01:26:04
deeper going on. If it's really
01:26:05
affecting you that much, it's like those
01:26:08
people who say, "Well, he's always
01:26:09
pushing my buttons." I ask, "Why is
01:26:10
there a button?" You know, it's if if
01:26:13
it's always getting you worked up,
01:26:15
there's probably something deeper that
01:26:16
you're not noticing. It's probably
01:26:19
related to something that happened when
01:26:21
he was a kid or something that maybe
01:26:24
it's
01:26:26
here. Let me give a good example. You
01:26:29
know, in in our marriage, I'm the
01:26:32
spender. She's the saber.
01:26:35
>> Okay?
01:26:35
>> She she can turn a penny into a dime,
01:26:38
right? You can pinch a penny to a dime.
01:26:42
And she got really frustrated with me of
01:26:44
like, why do you always need the nicest
01:26:45
thing, right? And that's typically if
01:26:48
she's has an option of several things,
01:26:51
even if I don't know the price tags, I
01:26:53
typically end up going with the one
01:26:54
that's most expensive. And it infuriates
01:26:56
her, right? Because she she wouldn't do
01:26:58
that. She's going to wait for it to go
01:26:59
on sale. It she could have something she
01:27:01
really wants and she's just going to
01:27:03
track it forever in her mind until it
01:27:04
goes on sale. And that's that gives her
01:27:06
satisfaction. Me, I'll just go buy it.
01:27:09
And I'm not saying I'm crazy what's I'm
01:27:12
not like some crazy spender, but this is
01:27:14
an issue that has always bothered her.
01:27:16
and bothered me.
01:27:19
And what we had come to find out, we had
01:27:22
actually used this with my AI actually,
01:27:24
but what we had come to learn is that
01:27:30
the reason why it affected me so much of
01:27:33
like why why do you always choose the
01:27:34
the nice thing is related to when I was
01:27:36
a kid as the oldest,
01:27:40
I I didn't get much of the the nice
01:27:43
thing. my my stuff was typically hand me
01:27:46
down from a friend or something else or
01:27:48
I I didn't get the nice thing. And at
01:27:51
some point along the way, you equate
01:27:53
that to your sense of worth. And so when
01:27:56
I first had the ability to pay for
01:27:58
anything for myself, yeah, I I I bought
01:28:00
the onbrand
01:28:02
cornflakes, you know, I bought the the
01:28:03
the onbrand
01:28:06
uh medication because to me that that
01:28:09
was equal to how I wanted others to
01:28:12
perceive me. And so when she realized
01:28:15
that, oh, it's not just me wanting to
01:28:17
splurge or have some kind of, you know,
01:28:20
you just think you
01:28:22
um have to buy the best. It was like,
01:28:24
no, that's actually it's a reflection of
01:28:26
when you buy me something nice, I feel
01:28:27
like you equate that to how much value I
01:28:31
I hold. I'm not worth buying something
01:28:33
nice for. And so it was related a lot to
01:28:36
my stuff. And we got to talk the same
01:28:38
about her stuff of why she doesn't want
01:28:41
to buy the thing. So, it's it's like
01:28:43
that having these super conversations
01:28:46
with your friend of why does it bother
01:28:47
her when she gets takes forever to get
01:28:50
dressed? Well, most likely it's related
01:28:52
to something in his past that's bothered
01:28:55
him that he's not seeing yet. Are the
01:28:58
conversation worth having? Yeah, I think
01:28:59
it's absolutely worth having. If it's
01:29:01
bothering you that much, yeah, if it's
01:29:04
hysterical, it's historical. I think
01:29:07
that's a really good point which is
01:29:08
we're all just dealing with
01:29:11
other people's inner child. Like we're
01:29:13
all dealing with it's just like me as a
01:29:14
child facing you as a child. I know we
01:29:16
look like adults now. I haven't got gray
01:29:18
hair but
01:29:18
>> yes
01:29:19
>> it's really still us just playing out
01:29:21
the stories and narratives from our
01:29:22
childhood oftent times.
01:29:23
>> You're exactly right. They they say in
01:29:24
therapy the worst thing about parents is
01:29:26
that they had parents. you know, I mean,
01:29:28
they they it's so easy for me just to
01:29:30
look at my mom and me forget that she
01:29:35
had parents, you know, that what they
01:29:37
did to her rather than me just looking
01:29:40
at what my parents have done to me, you
01:29:42
know, and and that's the definition of
01:29:44
the generational cycle. And it's
01:29:46
choosing to do something different with
01:29:50
with who you are and who you want to be
01:29:52
and who how you want to raise the next
01:29:54
generation. But we're it's it's all
01:29:56
survival skills. It's all childhood
01:30:00
trauma that's related. And when people I
01:30:02
have a section in my book of having
01:30:05
people define out
01:30:08
their own
01:30:10
the the communication skills they saw
01:30:12
growing up. Because most of the time if
01:30:14
you feel like arguments have to be this
01:30:17
big shouting match and everybody's
01:30:19
yelling and it's it's also typically
01:30:21
cultural, you know, of how certain
01:30:24
cultures how they argue and how loud it
01:30:26
is and if everybody versus there's some
01:30:29
cultures and families that it's very
01:30:32
quiet. Like I I I'll never forget going
01:30:35
to a friend's house when I was about
01:30:37
seven and his parents while we're eating
01:30:39
cereal like just had at it and I was
01:30:43
mortified like
01:30:44
>> arguing
01:30:45
>> arguing arguing
01:30:47
>> and I mean yelling at each other and I
01:30:51
am like bowling head mortified and my
01:30:53
friend is just eating cereal like hey
01:30:55
don't bother him whatsoever it's just
01:30:57
another Tuesday you know and whereas I
01:31:00
grew up with if my parents argued
01:31:03
it was going to be in their bedroom. You
01:31:05
know, I knew if they were going to they
01:31:07
went to close the door and they were
01:31:08
going to have a a conversation that they
01:31:10
didn't want us to hear. And so,
01:31:12
everybody has been modeled something
01:31:15
different where
01:31:17
like there's I've seen it on the
01:31:18
negative side where people feel like you
01:31:22
don't really love me unless you want to
01:31:23
fight with me. It's because that's all
01:31:26
they've been modeled, fights. They have
01:31:28
to say the most hurtful thing. They need
01:31:29
to be in tears. They need to be saying
01:31:31
horrible things to each other for them
01:31:33
to feel any kind of love. And I've also
01:31:36
seen it where people are wallflower.
01:31:38
They don't want to say anything. They
01:31:40
want to be really hesitant because bad
01:31:43
things happened when they spoke out at
01:31:45
home. They they realized that telling
01:31:48
the truth wasn't good for them. They
01:31:51
they they learned that lies protected
01:31:52
them.
01:31:53
>> It's interesting when you have one
01:31:54
parent that conducted themselves in a
01:31:56
certain way and the other parent was the
01:31:58
opposite.
01:31:58
>> Yeah. What then happens to you? Like
01:32:01
which communication style you then
01:32:02
adopt?
01:32:03
>> Which parent takes more of an interest
01:32:05
in you is where it typically goes. The
01:32:09
one you're most of the time with. And
01:32:12
see, I know people who their parents are
01:32:14
kind of absent, but they spend a lot of
01:32:16
time with their grandmother. And so I
01:32:18
know a guy who he sounds just like his
01:32:20
southern grandmother from Kentucky, you
01:32:23
know, because that's who he spent most
01:32:24
of his time with. And so it's it's who
01:32:28
takes the most interest in you. It's
01:32:30
it's where the parents
01:32:34
what I what I find so interesting in
01:32:38
communication we talk everything is
01:32:40
learned from how we were raised is at
01:32:44
one point in time there was utility to
01:32:45
what you were doing. There was a utility
01:32:47
to lying. It protected you. Protected
01:32:49
maybe your mom. It protected maybe your
01:32:51
dad. There's utility to it. There was a
01:32:53
utility to manipulating to be able to
01:32:56
say things weren't this way in order to
01:32:58
keep the family together. So there was a
01:33:01
utility to the very skill that you still
01:33:03
have and eventually it catches up with
01:33:04
you.
01:33:06
>> What is it about our communication do
01:33:08
you think that makes us accidentally
01:33:10
disliked by other people?
01:33:11
>> It sounds fake.
01:33:13
>> It sounds fake. And how does it sound
01:33:15
fake? Give me give me some color. Um, if
01:33:18
you want to know the secret if
01:33:20
somebody's being fake with you, there's
01:33:22
really three things that you got to
01:33:23
know. Number one, it's what I call
01:33:28
bestie bombing.
01:33:29
>> Bestie bombing.
01:33:30
>> Yeah. So, instead of like love bombing,
01:33:32
it's bestie bombing. I have people who
01:33:34
come to me all the time of I feel like
01:33:36
somebody's being fake with them. And
01:33:37
what they're doing is it's, "Oh my gosh,
01:33:39
I just we're we're literally the same
01:33:40
person. Oh, I think we're best friends."
01:33:42
And it's we just met. Like I just we I
01:33:45
already talked we're just standing next
01:33:46
to each other at the same party and
01:33:47
they're like, "Oh, we've got to go. Oh
01:33:49
my gosh, we you're my best. You're my
01:33:51
soulmate." And it's like they they give
01:33:53
way too much right out of the gate of
01:33:55
how much they love you.
01:33:57
>> Ah, yeah.
01:33:58
>> And it's it's nothing. It's not what
01:34:00
secure people do. Secure people don't
01:34:03
attach to you instantly.
01:34:04
>> Is that a form of manipulation?
01:34:06
>> No, it's a form of insecurity. It's it's
01:34:09
a form because if it would be
01:34:11
manipulation if they actually meant it,
01:34:14
but they don't. It's it's
01:34:17
these inauthentic relationships that all
01:34:21
of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, we
01:34:23
we're going to be best friends. I I love
01:34:25
you so much." And you're like, I I I'm
01:34:28
don't even know I don't even know your
01:34:29
last name. What are you What are you
01:34:30
talking about? So, you see that a lot.
01:34:33
Two is the over compliments. We all have
01:34:36
this sixth sense to be able to sniff out
01:34:40
if that's real or not. Like nobody needs
01:34:43
to teach you if it's a fake laugh or
01:34:45
not.
01:34:46
You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Right.
01:34:49
I don't know. Was that real or not,
01:34:50
Stephen? Yeah. Yeah.
01:34:51
>> It's so funny. Yeah. Because we we think
01:34:53
we can spot everyone else's fake laugh
01:34:54
and then conspars.
01:34:55
>> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's
01:34:57
exactly right. It's like But nobody had
01:34:59
to teach that to you. Nobody had to say,
01:35:00
"Hey, if you hear like this, it's a fake
01:35:02
laugh." No, no, no. We all as humans
01:35:04
it's we have an ability a sense to go
01:35:07
nah that didn't sound real that's not a
01:35:09
real smile you know people have their
01:35:11
like photo smile and the real smile
01:35:14
>> and the same with the the the laughter
01:35:18
or like that's not that wasn't that
01:35:19
funny or they overcomplent something
01:35:22
they compliment your shoes I mean and
01:35:25
then they have really they go oh my gosh
01:35:27
I I I love that outfit and then all of a
01:35:28
sudden they've turned their head you
01:35:29
know what I mean they're not really
01:35:31
truly engaged in what it is it's just
01:35:33
it's it's a ritual to them of that's how
01:35:36
they have learned because to me if you
01:35:39
have to perfectly curate yourself this
01:35:42
this sense of perfection you you're not
01:35:44
getting the real human you're getting a
01:35:48
person in character you're getting them
01:35:51
in and scene you know they have to like
01:35:54
get into it and so it's it's um it's
01:35:58
something that's so so fake every every
01:36:00
single time and then I the third that
01:36:03
you have to watch out for are the people
01:36:06
that aren't willing to actually have an
01:36:09
interest in you.
01:36:11
Meaning they never ask anything about
01:36:13
you. They're only wanting to talk about
01:36:15
themselves. Like have you ever been in a
01:36:18
I know you have and you're networking in
01:36:20
a big room and somebody's looking at you
01:36:21
and all of a sudden they're looking at
01:36:22
the room like they're they're looking
01:36:25
for who they're going to talk to next
01:36:27
and you've lost them. And so it's like,
01:36:29
why? We're both just kind of here saying
01:36:31
things. We're going to slow down our
01:36:33
words so it's not as awkward. And you
01:36:35
say things like, "Yeah, that's that's
01:36:37
crazy." Yeah. And like while you're both
01:36:40
looking for somebody else to talk to,
01:36:42
but that's what happens. You realize you
01:36:44
stay you come out of focus and they
01:36:45
they're looking for the next person. A
01:36:47
really um surprising point of uh
01:36:50
feedback or compliment someone gave me
01:36:52
once and it's surprising because I never
01:36:54
considered it to be something that
01:36:55
people were noticing is when I do like
01:36:57
meet and greets and you're meeting say
01:36:59
100 people before or after a talk or
01:37:00
whatever and they're coming up one one
01:37:02
at a time.
01:37:04
>> I will get DMs in the preceding days of
01:37:08
people telling me that they liked the
01:37:10
way that they watched me pay attention
01:37:13
to someone else.
01:37:14
>> Do you get this
01:37:15
>> all the time? Yeah. They're watching how
01:37:18
how interested you are in the person
01:37:20
that's talking to you.
01:37:21
>> And I didn't I didn't obviously it's not
01:37:23
something I'd thought about before until
01:37:25
probably had about 20 messages over the
01:37:26
last year or two from people saying and
01:37:29
do you know what I noticed even how much
01:37:31
you were paying attention to the person
01:37:32
that spoke to you. Not to them. They
01:37:34
were in the line waiting. But it's the
01:37:36
per and I just thought that's so
01:37:37
interesting that we judge
01:37:39
>> other people by how they interact with
01:37:41
>> other people while we're watching as
01:37:43
well.
01:37:43
>> Right. And that being interested is seen
01:37:46
as makes you likable. I guess
01:37:49
>> presence is the highest form of
01:37:52
authenticity.
01:37:53
>> Like I can talk to you, but am I here
01:37:55
with you?
01:37:56
>> Am I do I have my eyes with you? Am I am
01:37:58
I interested in you? Am I going to am I
01:38:02
easily distracted? Am I have my phone?
01:38:04
Am I am I really paying attention? Or am
01:38:07
I making sure that you know you are the
01:38:09
most important thing that's happening in
01:38:11
this moment? Even if it's a glimmer and
01:38:13
even if it's for 30, 20 seconds and
01:38:16
you're doing a meet and greet and you're
01:38:18
saying hi or you're signing their book,
01:38:20
do you ask them their name? Do you use
01:38:23
their name? Do you look at them with
01:38:25
intent of true genuine thank you for
01:38:27
being here? None of this would happen if
01:38:29
not for you. People are watching the
01:38:31
whole time and they they they know. I
01:38:35
mean, it's it's it's such a
01:38:38
>> it's like what you know it when you feel
01:38:40
it kind of thing. And to me, it's it's
01:38:42
presence. Am I am I truly here with you?
01:38:44
Okay. Because even at the house, you
01:38:46
know, you can say, "Well, I'm home all
01:38:48
the time, but are you are you just
01:38:50
looking on your phone? Are you just
01:38:51
sitting on the couch? Are you always
01:38:53
reading? Are you that's not presence?"
01:38:56
>> I'm going to play this video on the
01:38:58
screen for anyone that's uh watching the
01:39:00
video. Okay.
01:39:00
>> But it it immediately made me think of
01:39:02
um this clip that went viral of Miley
01:39:05
Cyrus and Amy Campbell.
01:39:06
>> Oh, I haven't seen this. They were doing
01:39:08
a meet and greet
01:39:10
together and they were just chatting to
01:39:12
each other and kind of ignoring the
01:39:13
fans. And you can
01:39:17
be
01:39:25
>> I just remember thinking this is like
01:39:27
the antithesis of what we've just said.
01:39:30
>> It's painful to watch. I know it's
01:39:32
painful for the people. I mean I it's
01:39:34
several layers of where
01:39:38
one, it's an area of really little
01:39:41
forgiveness.
01:39:42
You know, if you think of somebody of of
01:39:44
her caliber, so to say, of like her
01:39:47
celebrity, right? Seen thousands,
01:39:49
millions, it's happened. And is there
01:39:52
really room for just having a
01:39:54
conversation with somebody like if I if
01:39:56
you're her, how do you what would be the
01:39:59
justification? Right? If you could just
01:40:00
pause and say, "What is it?" Maybe you
01:40:02
say, "Well, there isn't any." Okay,
01:40:04
that's fine. But let's say one, when it
01:40:06
comes to presence, there's really not
01:40:09
any room for
01:40:11
forgiveness. It's it's either you're
01:40:14
present with them or you're you're not
01:40:15
because this kind of thing can last
01:40:17
forever. Second of all, people will
01:40:21
forget what you did, but they'll never
01:40:23
forget how you made them feel.
01:40:26
And
01:40:27
people will remember you, Stephen, of
01:40:30
they will tell their kids and their
01:40:32
grandkids of the time that they met you
01:40:35
and how nice you were, how present you
01:40:37
were, and how you were genuinely
01:40:40
interested in them. And that makes all
01:40:43
the difference. If you have one slip up,
01:40:46
that's when I say it's it's it's not
01:40:48
very forgivable. When when you have one
01:40:50
slip up, it's showing applied to all
01:40:52
because if you can do it to them, you
01:40:54
can do it to me. The slip up will also
01:40:56
travel much further.
01:40:57
>> Faster too.
01:40:58
>> Yeah. Faster. F
01:40:59
>> because I guarantee you, you know, you
01:41:01
think of all the meet and greets that
01:41:03
somebody like that has had and has had
01:41:05
genuine real interest. They they mess up
01:41:07
one time, they get tired one time. Well,
01:41:10
then all of a sudden that's what travels
01:41:12
way faster. So, but the thing is that
01:41:15
that's why I say presence is the highest
01:41:17
form of authenticity because if you can
01:41:20
take that moment to be truly interested
01:41:22
in somebody because who am I? You know,
01:41:25
I'm I'm a guy from a small town who made
01:41:27
videos in my car and you're going to
01:41:29
come to my book signing and you traveled
01:41:31
and you flew in two hours. Like, why
01:41:33
would I not? Hold up. Take the line. Let
01:41:35
me spend three minutes with you. Can I
01:41:37
give three minutes of my life to talk to
01:41:38
you? What are you doing here? And so
01:41:41
when you have
01:41:44
that humility and there's several people
01:41:47
I know you know many names of they they
01:41:51
forgot how they got what they got.
01:41:53
>> Oh yeah. I have a really interesting
01:41:56
example of this recently where we
01:41:58
appointed a new chairman to our company.
01:42:00
>> He's called Nikki
01:42:02
>> and um incredible guy. He's been at like
01:42:05
he'd been proctor and gamble doing
01:42:07
product for I don't know 12 years. then
01:42:08
went to Boston Consulting Group and was
01:42:11
one of the senior figures at Boston
01:42:12
Consulting Group for 25 years. And you
01:42:15
know, he's in the the home stretch of
01:42:18
his career.
01:42:18
>> Mhm.
01:42:19
>> And he joined our company
01:42:22
and
01:42:24
he is, you know, he he's achieved so
01:42:26
much. He's he's worked with the biggest
01:42:27
the best in the world globally,
01:42:29
>> right?
01:42:30
>> So, he's got the right, one would say,
01:42:32
>> I like that,
01:42:33
>> to be a certain way. That's what someone
01:42:35
might say. But I'm over here in Los
01:42:38
Angeles. Um, he joins the company as
01:42:40
chairman. And the interesting thing, the
01:42:44
interesting feedback I got, I know 5,000
01:42:46
miles away was a very junior member of
01:42:49
the team came up to me and said, "Oh, I
01:42:51
love Nikki." And I was like, "Explain."
01:42:54
And he went, he sat down with me and
01:42:57
gave me an hour of his time.
01:42:59
That was the reason he loved him.
01:43:01
>> That was it.
01:43:01
>> That was it. It was presence. and and
01:43:04
what what I I later found out was that
01:43:06
Nikki went into the company and there is
01:43:08
hundreds of people and he sat down with
01:43:10
every single one of them regardless of
01:43:12
whether you're an intern or whether
01:43:13
you're the CEO and it always it's always
01:43:15
stayed with me how much that has
01:43:18
mattered how much that has shaped his
01:43:20
perception just disproport he's
01:43:22
brilliant and everything but
01:43:23
disproportionately shaped his perception
01:43:25
just by giving someone the most valuable
01:43:27
thing which is just their time.
01:43:28
>> Yes. And um I mean maybe it's a a story
01:43:32
of how to be a good partner. Maybe it's
01:43:35
a story of how to be in the public eye,
01:43:38
>> right?
01:43:38
>> Maybe it's also a story of how to be a
01:43:39
great colleague or team member or
01:43:40
leader.
01:43:41
>> Yeah. Or just a great human. Yeah. I I
01:43:44
think there is um when you're always in
01:43:47
the habit of giving, giving then feels a
01:43:51
lot like receiving. So when I'm giving
01:43:53
my time, it also feels like I'm
01:43:56
receiving that time back. when I can
01:43:59
continually have that spirit and you
01:44:02
have that knowledge of
01:44:05
humility. They say, "What does humility
01:44:07
mean?" It it means you realize that you
01:44:09
are just as weird and terrible as
01:44:11
everybody else. When you realize I I'm
01:44:15
I'm the chief worst person there is. No,
01:44:18
I'm not better than a single person that
01:44:20
is in line to to do or attend something
01:44:23
or sit in an audience. I I am no better.
01:44:27
I've just been through a lot. Still been
01:44:30
through a lot. And so I know a lot. And
01:44:32
when you have that mindset of
01:44:35
I want to meet and touch every single
01:44:37
person. If I were to come in here
01:44:40
and
01:44:42
only talk to you, but not talk to your
01:44:45
team,
01:44:47
what's what do you think that's going to
01:44:48
do when you can go somewhere and not
01:44:51
just talk to who's the most popular,
01:44:54
but also talk to who's the least? Like
01:44:57
it's it is you will always get way more.
01:45:01
and for yourself and for the other
01:45:03
person when you can lower yourself to
01:45:05
say, "Hey, we're just humans in a room.
01:45:08
How's it going?"
01:45:09
>> It's interesting that we um we're
01:45:11
figuring people out by how we observe
01:45:14
them vicariously. We were talking about
01:45:15
it in the context of like a meet and
01:45:16
greet a second ago. Yeah.
01:45:17
>> What you said there tracks perfectly
01:45:19
with with that, which is when you walked
01:45:21
in the room, you didn't just speak to
01:45:22
me, you also asked Berta, who's
01:45:25
recording the podcast today, what her
01:45:27
name was. And then you said to Berta,
01:45:29
you said, "Thank you for doing this."
01:45:31
right
01:45:31
>> now. Isn't it funny that I remember?
01:45:32
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:45:33
>> Isn't it funny that that was like two
01:45:34
and a half hours ago and I remember
01:45:36
because it was really memorable to me
01:45:38
that you did that
01:45:39
>> because not everybody does that. Not
01:45:41
everybody will, you know, notice that
01:45:42
>> B is in the room with us and she's
01:45:44
running all these cameras and she's
01:45:45
putting it together. But for some
01:45:46
reason, just before we started
01:45:46
recording, you made a point of asking
01:45:48
her what her name was and then
01:45:50
>> and then thanking her for doing this
01:45:51
today. Yeah.
01:45:52
>> Most people don't do that.
01:45:54
>> And as you walk away from today, I'm not
01:45:56
going to remember like that you you
01:45:57
walked in and said something nice about
01:45:58
me or whatever. The most shocking thing
01:46:01
and therefore the most memorable because
01:46:02
it is the most unusual
01:46:04
>> because it is typically the most
01:46:05
overlooked is you acknowledging the
01:46:09
other people.
01:46:10
>> Yeah.
01:46:10
>> And um
01:46:13
I've noticed this as a paradox that I
01:46:15
almost need to put words to, but I I
01:46:16
remember
01:46:18
in something I wrote a long time ago
01:46:21
saying how useless absurdity will define
01:46:23
you more than useful practicality. And
01:46:25
what I mean by that is the example I was
01:46:27
giving was in the context of my old gym
01:46:30
where they have this massive climbing
01:46:31
wall in the entrance. And I came home to
01:46:33
my girlfriend and said, "There's this
01:46:34
incredible gym. It's massive. They even
01:46:37
have a 100 foot climbing wall in the
01:46:38
entrance." What I'm doing is I'm
01:46:40
pointing at the most absurd thing to
01:46:43
give you a shortcut that tells you
01:46:45
everything about that gym. Now, if I
01:46:48
point at the most absurd thing, you know
01:46:49
the gym is big.
01:46:50
>> Oh, I got chills. Yeah. Yeah. So good.
01:46:52
Yes. If I say there's 100 foot climbing
01:46:53
wall, you know, there's lots of running
01:46:54
machines,
01:46:55
>> right?
01:46:55
>> So, if I if I when I leave here and go,
01:46:57
he was so nice. He even spoke to Ber and
01:46:59
um thanked her for doing the podcast.
01:47:01
I'm using that as a shortcut because
01:47:03
it's the most standout absurd thing to
01:47:06
tell other people everything about you.
01:47:08
>> Yes. I love that.
01:47:09
>> And this is why we should value the the
01:47:11
seemingly petty and seemingly small and
01:47:12
seemingly inconsequential because other
01:47:14
people don't. Therefore, it creates
01:47:16
maximal impact.
01:47:18
>> Yes. That that's why the big
01:47:20
conversations rarely matter. the small
01:47:21
ones do. It's the small ones with
01:47:23
strangers. It's the conversations you
01:47:25
don't have on the stage. It's the
01:47:26
conversations you have in your driveway.
01:47:28
It's the conversations you have in your
01:47:29
backyard at the coffee shop. It's it's
01:47:31
the conversations you have to somebody
01:47:33
passing by in the elevator. Like, it's
01:47:35
those that that's what defines the human
01:47:39
experience. If I were to text you a
01:47:43
compliment, right? That's one thing. But
01:47:45
if I were to say, "Hey, I just finished
01:47:48
lunch with soand so who you also know. I
01:47:50
got to tell you, this person loves you
01:47:52
so much and and I share with you what
01:47:54
they said about you, you're going to
01:47:55
take that differently.
01:47:56
>> If I wanted to give you, let's say if
01:47:58
someone want to give me a gift, right?
01:48:00
But instead, they didn't give it to me,
01:48:01
they gave it to my kids.
01:48:04
>> I mean, that's h how much more would
01:48:06
that define how much they care,
01:48:08
>> right? It it's anytime I go on a a
01:48:11
stage, I make it a priority that I know
01:48:14
the guy who's or girl who's putting on
01:48:16
my the AV system, the lapel mic, the
01:48:19
everything. I want to know their name. I
01:48:21
know how how many times they've done
01:48:23
this today, how they're doing because
01:48:25
it's so easy just to turn and keep
01:48:28
talking to who's important while and act
01:48:29
like they're just doing it. Like it's
01:48:32
when you can truly talk to the people
01:48:37
that's just a regular person and forget
01:48:39
that you you don't have to just stick to
01:48:40
the somebodyodies. You don't have to
01:48:42
look always for the somebodyodies. I
01:48:44
used to say that I again this comes from
01:48:46
employing a lot of people that we all
01:48:47
have invisible PR
01:48:49
>> and it's and it shows up in the moments
01:48:51
that matters the most but it's built in
01:48:53
the moments that seem to matter the
01:48:54
least.
01:48:55
>> Yeah. And the example I always think of
01:48:57
is being working in the New York office
01:48:59
um many years ago and getting a message
01:49:02
from my team member just saying, "Oh,
01:49:03
Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped
01:49:06
over and Jenny immediately got up from
01:49:08
her desk and ran across uh to the first
01:49:10
aid kit and sorted him out. She's so
01:49:12
nice." And I'd hear that 3,000 miles
01:49:14
away. And then a year later, I'd be sat
01:49:16
with Jenny during her promotion
01:49:18
conversation.
01:49:19
>> Yeah. And that one thing she did, that
01:49:23
small thing she did was often the time
01:49:25
where I'd go, you know what, this person
01:49:26
is a certain type of person and we
01:49:28
should
01:49:29
>> double down on them. And then I've got
01:49:30
the opposite as well.
01:49:32
>> I've got the a little thing someone did
01:49:34
to someone who was not necessarily their
01:49:37
line manager or significant.
01:49:39
>> Yeah.
01:49:40
>> And it, you know, and even things that
01:49:43
happened to me years ago when I came up
01:49:45
to I walked up to someone famous. I've
01:49:48
told this story. It's so crazy. I told
01:49:49
this story on the podcast like episode
01:49:51
three and no one listened and then um
01:49:55
like 3 four years later the podcast got
01:49:57
bigger and people started listening to
01:49:59
people go back to the old episodes.
01:50:00
>> Mhm.
01:50:01
>> And this famous person tweeted me like
01:50:03
four years later I was like I heard
01:50:04
you're talking about me in the UK blah
01:50:05
blah blah blah blah.
01:50:07
>> But I was I was just sharing as an
01:50:08
example for like invisible PR where
01:50:10
someone I'd gone up to someone famous
01:50:11
and asked them a question and they just
01:50:14
like
01:50:15
>> bang. Yeah.
01:50:16
>> Like laid into me.
01:50:18
>> Right. And I and I, you know, I don't
01:50:20
know what they're going through that
01:50:20
day, but it it always, you know,
01:50:22
>> well, that's but that brings it around
01:50:24
like full circle because like we just
01:50:27
said, you can have those little moments
01:50:29
where it's it's the rock wall, right?
01:50:32
Where little moments of connection, of
01:50:34
presence, of real authenticity, of them
01:50:37
being with you that you'll remember
01:50:38
forever.
01:50:40
And I bet if I had to guess, there's a
01:50:42
moment in Steven at the playground
01:50:45
growing up that or a teacher, somebody
01:50:48
in your life said something that was
01:50:50
nice and you've remembered forever.
01:50:52
>> Oh, yeah.
01:50:54
>> But I
01:50:56
would also venture a bit.
01:50:57
>> Yes. Before you've even said, I could I
01:50:58
thought of the moment
01:51:00
>> that Okay.
01:51:01
>> Playground Steven where somebody said
01:51:03
something hurtful.
01:51:05
>> Yeah.
01:51:06
>> Or rude or said something about how you
01:51:08
look or your appearance. Maybe not even
01:51:10
recess, but sometime in your life.
01:51:11
>> Oh yeah.
01:51:12
>> And it was just something maybe it was
01:51:14
about for a lot of people it's like
01:51:16
their weight or their appearance or
01:51:17
their looks and they've carried that
01:51:20
around with them forever and that like
01:51:22
without knowing it that person gave you
01:51:24
an insecurity for the rest of your life.
01:51:27
And so it's so wild to me how the
01:51:30
positive is remembered,
01:51:32
the negative is remembered much longer
01:51:36
and travels a lot farther. And I mean
01:51:38
it's when I ask that to a group that I'm
01:51:41
talking to, those hands are always way
01:51:44
more raised for the negative, for the
01:51:46
one thing that the power of your words
01:51:49
lasts way longer than you'd ever think.
01:51:52
The ripple effect will affect people
01:51:54
you've never met. I mean, you think
01:51:56
think of the people who you've touched
01:51:58
and the people you've never met, but yet
01:52:00
they have a perception of you based
01:52:03
three persons down,
01:52:05
>> right? And how I talk to my kids will
01:52:08
affect how they talk to their kids and
01:52:09
their kids. Children I'll never meet.
01:52:12
And when you realize that how I talk to
01:52:15
the person behind the cashier affects
01:52:18
how he or she talks to their kids when
01:52:21
they go home based on what I said will
01:52:25
determine whether they come home and
01:52:26
say, "I had a really bad day. I had a
01:52:28
really hard day and it it's because of
01:52:30
what I said because I was rude or I was
01:52:33
impatient because they didn't get it to
01:52:35
me fast enough and all of a sudden
01:52:37
without knowing just as much as the
01:52:39
positive lasts so does the negative.
01:52:40
It's now I what I chose to say is
01:52:44
responsible for how they're treating
01:52:45
their own kids.
01:52:46
>> And that's what how we are as humans,
01:52:48
right? Like we um the reason why we
01:52:50
survived is because we're good at
01:52:51
gossip.
01:52:52
>> That too.
01:52:53
>> We're good at passing on stories. So,
01:52:55
you know, I could tell people before
01:52:56
they met you if you were a risk.
01:52:58
>> No. Yeah.
01:52:59
>> I could, you know, don't go near him.
01:53:00
Don't go near that cave. There's a
01:53:01
>> threat person in there that's going to
01:53:03
kill us. So,
01:53:04
>> right.
01:53:04
>> It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in
01:53:06
some respects to be gossipy and to pass
01:53:08
on people's reputations.
01:53:09
>> But we've always asked what's the news?
01:53:12
>> You know, people going through town from
01:53:13
town to town. You you didn't you didn't
01:53:15
really have a paper. It's do you have
01:53:16
any news?
01:53:18
So, I'm going to push you to close to
01:53:20
give me the five things that you think
01:53:22
are most important for anyone who's
01:53:25
striving to be a masterful communicator,
01:53:29
conversationalist
01:53:30
to get what they want out of life, which
01:53:33
is really what I think is it is the last
01:53:35
domino when we talk about body language
01:53:37
or communication tactics or all the
01:53:38
things we're talking about. I think
01:53:39
people are trying to get something out
01:53:40
of life, whether it's to have a better
01:53:42
relationship or to
01:53:45
be respected or what, get a promotion,
01:53:47
to be successful. I think that's
01:53:49
probably the the output we're looking
01:53:50
for
01:53:51
>> ultimately. Do you agree with that? I
01:53:53
don't want to like what is it that
01:53:55
what's the last domino that people are
01:53:57
looking for when they talk about this
01:53:58
stuff up here?
01:54:00
>> Selfworth.
01:54:01
>> Selfworth. Okay.
01:54:02
>> Am I Am I enough?
01:54:04
>> Am I enough? Okay.
01:54:07
So what are the what are the five most
01:54:09
important things to summarize if you had
01:54:10
to give me five.
01:54:12
>> The first is authenticity.
01:54:16
If I cannot be genuine with you, if I
01:54:18
cannot be real with you, then I can be
01:54:21
nobody to you.
01:54:22
>> And on authenticity,
01:54:24
you know, on your bad day, are you still
01:54:26
authentic at work?
01:54:28
>> Yes.
01:54:28
>> Like if you're if you're really, you
01:54:31
know, having a bad day, do you show up
01:54:32
to work as your authentic self?
01:54:35
>> I would say yes. I mean, there's
01:54:36
obviously certain parameters that are
01:54:38
within social norms of just because I'm
01:54:41
having a a bad time and in a bad mood,
01:54:42
does that give me a right to rip you a
01:54:45
new one? Uh, just because you said hello
01:54:47
to me that morning, you know? No. But I
01:54:50
I think that there is certainly a space
01:54:52
to say, don't act h like you're happy
01:54:55
when you're not.
01:54:56
>> What about lying? Is that a violation of
01:54:58
authenticity? So, a colleague comes up
01:54:59
to me, they say, "What do you think of
01:55:01
my new
01:55:03
haircut?" And you think it's terrible?
01:55:05
Yeah.
01:55:05
>> What you What' you say?
01:55:08
>> It's an interesting choice. Probably is
01:55:10
what I'd say.
01:55:11
>> So, you wouldn't lie.
01:55:12
>> No, I wouldn't. I would probably change
01:55:14
it to where it's I'm glad that they like
01:55:17
it. You know, I I don't have to like it
01:55:19
for you to give it any type of worth. If
01:55:21
you like it, that's awesome.
01:55:23
>> And authenticity as a strategy builds
01:55:26
trust over time. So, that's a long-term
01:55:28
game, I guess.
01:55:29
>> Yeah. No, I I came across some research
01:55:32
uh recently where it was in social
01:55:34
settings, those that are more authentic
01:55:36
are also the ones that are more trusted
01:55:38
and the ones you want to be around more.
01:55:41
>> Why do people struggle with
01:55:42
authenticity? It goes back to this point
01:55:43
about people pleasing, I guess. But
01:55:45
there is a certain type of person, I
01:55:47
think, that probably struggles to just
01:55:48
be,
01:55:51
you know, just to show up in all the
01:55:53
ways that they
01:55:55
they are to be themselves. They grew up
01:56:00
in places that weren't safe,
01:56:03
whether physically or emotionally.
01:56:06
They they grew up unsafe. And so they're
01:56:09
always tense. They're always anxious.
01:56:12
They're always worried about the next
01:56:13
shoe to drop. They can't rest.
01:56:17
You see people that had come from very
01:56:21
hard, harsh environments.
01:56:23
you'll see the survival skills that have
01:56:26
come out of that. Um,
01:56:29
it's because they they simply didn't
01:56:31
have a place to be safe.
01:56:35
>> Number two,
01:56:37
>> reduce the amount of distraction.
01:56:40
>> Reduce distraction. Is that the same as
01:56:43
saying like increase presence?
01:56:45
>> Well, that is the the benefit of it.
01:56:48
Yeah.
01:56:49
If you want to increase your presence,
01:56:51
you have to eliminate distractions. And
01:56:53
that means eliminate how often you're on
01:56:55
your phone.
01:56:56
>> I've got some thread here. Do you know
01:56:58
why this is here?
01:57:00
>> Yes.
01:57:01
>> Well, you explain.
01:57:02
>> Well, I mean, so just a piece of very
01:57:05
pretty red string. And this string is
01:57:09
going to represent the connection
01:57:10
between the two of us. So, give you the
01:57:12
end of it. What I just gave you is a
01:57:14
piece of string. And it connects between
01:57:18
your hand and my hand. And it's taught
01:57:19
right now. So this string right now
01:57:21
represents the connection between us in
01:57:24
conversation.
01:57:25
>> It's tight.
01:57:26
>> It's very tight. I'm going to ask
01:57:28
questions throughout this that don't
01:57:30
think about how what the right answer
01:57:33
is. Just go with what your gut instinct
01:57:36
of how it feels. So right now it's
01:57:38
tight. And if I look at you in the eye
01:57:40
and I say, "Stephen, how's it going,
01:57:42
man?"
01:57:43
>> It's going good. Yeah.
01:57:44
>> Yeah. What was something that frustrated
01:57:45
you yesterday?
01:57:46
>> My haircut didn't go to plan. Tell me
01:57:48
about it.
01:57:50
>> It's just not It's not good. I don't
01:57:51
like it.
01:57:52
>> Do you find that some of the the biggest
01:57:55
struggles you had yesterday was mostly
01:57:56
with business or personal or Tell me
01:57:59
something with business.
01:58:00
>> Um the struggles with business
01:58:02
yesterday.
01:58:03
>> Yeah.
01:58:05
>> Oh, go ahead.
01:58:06
>> Okay. So, you're on your phone now and
01:58:08
the connection has been reduced.
01:58:12
>> Um
01:58:12
>> Yeah. So, I just pulled out my phone and
01:58:15
now I'm looking. And what did you feel
01:58:17
in the line?
01:58:18
>> I felt like the tightness went it went
01:58:21
loose.
01:58:21
>> Yeah, it went slack. Right. And but
01:58:23
that's the physical. What was
01:58:25
emotionally? How did that feel?
01:58:27
>> It felt disrespectful.
01:58:28
>> Yeah. And see if I had just both had
01:58:30
both hands on it like this. Now let's
01:58:34
put it taught again and I'm talking to
01:58:36
you and I say, "So what's what are you
01:58:38
looking forward to this weekend?"
01:58:40
>> I'm looking forward to
01:58:43
>> No, go ahead. And this is me just turn.
01:58:44
It's still tight. Don't worry. It's I
01:58:46
still am connected to you, you know.
01:58:47
Don't worry about it. I'm I'm right
01:58:48
here. Go ahead. Yeah. Exactly. You see
01:58:51
how all of a sudden you wanted to let go
01:58:52
now.
01:58:52
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:58:53
>> Yeah. For anybody listening. So you we
01:58:55
both had it tight. I look at my phone
01:58:57
while still holding it tight where I'm
01:58:58
saying, "No, no, I'm listening. Go right
01:59:00
ahead." And all of a sudden, you are the
01:59:02
one that let go of the line.
01:59:04
>> Yeah.
01:59:04
>> Isn't that something? Because all of a
01:59:05
sudden, you gave up on the conversation.
01:59:08
You didn't want to be in it anymore.
01:59:09
What do you typically do if somebody's
01:59:11
at dinner with you and they pull out
01:59:13
their phone?
01:59:14
>> I mean, you look away or you can speak
01:59:16
to someone else or you
01:59:17
>> or you pull out your phone.
01:59:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:59:19
>> Exactly. You It's like they've given you
01:59:21
permission to now pick up their phone.
01:59:24
Somebody gets on theirs and you don't
01:59:26
want to look awkward or odd. So, what
01:59:27
you you get out yours and next thing you
01:59:29
know, both of you are on your phones at
01:59:32
dinner where you're supposed to be
01:59:33
communicating with each other and you're
01:59:35
just staring at your phone. Do you think
01:59:38
I sometimes think this with me being an
01:59:40
interviewer having this iPad in front of
01:59:41
me, I'm like, should I get rid of the
01:59:42
iPad?
01:59:44
>> Maybe I should because I write things
01:59:45
down while someone's speaking to me and
01:59:47
I I do worry sometimes that if I'm like
01:59:50
looking at a particular point or fact or
01:59:52
whatever that I'm
01:59:53
>> It's a little bit different. So, there's
01:59:55
a part of this that is it's it's a
01:59:58
production. We have cameras. We have
01:59:59
lights. Like, this isn't a normal just
02:00:02
if you and I were having coffee. But
02:00:03
let's say you and I were having lunch
02:00:06
and I'm talking like this to you and I
02:00:09
put my phone right here.
02:00:12
>> Do you feel a difference?
02:00:13
>> Yeah, I do. Yeah.
02:00:13
>> Do you feel I'm more connected or less
02:00:14
connected?
02:00:15
>> Less connected.
02:00:15
>> Yeah. And if I
02:00:16
>> am mixed priorities, not the priority.
02:00:18
>> Do you feel any different if I flip it
02:00:20
over?
02:00:20
>> Yes, I do.
02:00:21
>> And my face is it's it's down.
02:00:22
>> Yes, I do. It's a signal
02:00:24
>> of
02:00:25
>> that you think this is more important
02:00:27
and you don't want to be distracted.
02:00:29
>> Imagine what would you feel like if
02:00:33
you were on a date or got together with
02:00:36
a friend
02:00:38
>> and you just said, "Hey, where's your
02:00:40
phone?" He said, "Oh, I just left it in
02:00:41
the car. I just wanted to sit with you."
02:00:43
>> Yes. Incredible.
02:00:45
>> Does anybody do that?
02:00:46
>> No.
02:00:46
>> No. Nobody does that. But imagine
02:00:48
imagine if right now there was uh let's
02:00:52
say a woman is about to go on a date and
02:00:55
she asked a guy, "Where's your phone?"
02:00:57
And he goes, "Oh, I left it in the left
02:00:59
it in the car."
02:01:00
I mean, what kind of
02:01:02
>> You think it was kind of weird?
02:01:03
>> Yeah. Almost like what? You mean you
02:01:05
want to be solely interested in me? I'm
02:01:08
signaling that there is nothing else
02:01:09
more important than what's going on
02:01:10
right here.
02:01:11
>> So, that's so such atypical behavior.
02:01:13
Some people might see it as a red flag.
02:01:14
>> I No, that's probably true. But if I
02:01:16
have it here, even if I put it face down
02:01:19
on the table and I'm talking to you,
02:01:21
>> I'm at least still having my world, my
02:01:24
business, my stress, my chaos. It's my
02:01:26
It's my pacifier. You don't you're not
02:01:28
going to ask me to take away my blanket,
02:01:29
are you?
02:01:30
>> Yeah.
02:01:30
>> And so I'm still it's still there in the
02:01:32
conversation with us. So even if I put
02:01:34
it down or I put it between my legs or I
02:01:36
put it in my pocket, which I think is
02:01:37
much better of not letting it come out
02:01:40
at all, but it's what's the strength of
02:01:44
the connection? Because we've all been
02:01:46
that person like we just showed with the
02:01:48
string where they get out their phone
02:01:50
while you're talking and like Mhm. Yeah.
02:01:52
Yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Go ahead. And you
02:01:54
go, I don't want this.
02:01:55
>> Yeah. you let go because it's like
02:01:57
that's this isn't real this isn't real
02:01:58
connection. So if you want to be a
02:02:00
better communicator, you have to
02:02:02
understand the definition of true
02:02:04
connection. It's keeping it taught.
02:02:06
>> I am so shocked when I go to restaurants
02:02:09
with my girlfriend cuz we have a rule
02:02:10
and this is actually a rule that I
02:02:11
completely agreed with.
02:02:12
>> Yeah.
02:02:12
>> Which is like when we go on a date or we
02:02:14
go to a restaurant, there's no phones.
02:02:15
>> Exactly.
02:02:16
>> We're not going to be on our phones in a
02:02:17
restaurant.
02:02:17
>> It's mind-blowing.
02:02:18
>> Mindblowing. We went to um when we were
02:02:21
we've been here all this week and and we
02:02:24
went to a restaurant Sier and I and I
02:02:26
saw so many couples and people and
02:02:28
friends and that were just at the table
02:02:30
and it it was it was dark evening and
02:02:33
all you see is the glow of phones just
02:02:36
everybody just sitting there on their
02:02:37
phone. It's just it's it's crazy to me.
02:02:40
or or the people that are on their couch
02:02:43
with the TV on both of them are on their
02:02:46
phones and and they're supposed to be
02:02:48
watching a movie together.
02:02:49
>> You know, everyone people watches a
02:02:51
little bit and restaurants. Yeah. So,
02:02:53
I'm not going to pretend we don't.
02:02:54
>> Yeah. At least I'm not going to do that.
02:02:55
I'm
02:02:56
>> But we we will be in a restaurant and we
02:02:57
just sometimes play a little game where
02:02:59
we kind of guess how long people have
02:03:00
been together based on how they're
02:03:02
behaving.
02:03:02
>> Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun. And
02:03:03
so it's it tends to be the case that
02:03:05
it's the younger couples where there's a
02:03:08
man and a woman and they're both on
02:03:09
their phone and I just can't believe
02:03:12
what I'm seeing.
02:03:12
>> Yeah.
02:03:13
>> Like I'm look I got my phone a lot but
02:03:15
if I'm on a date I am not going to be
02:03:18
sat there looking at a screen while
02:03:19
she's sat there looking on a screen just
02:03:20
in total silence.
02:03:22
>> Even if I've known this woman for 35
02:03:24
years.
02:03:25
>> Yeah. It's become so much of a an
02:03:28
emotional pacifier when I don't like the
02:03:30
angst of having to wait in line by
02:03:32
myself. I don't like having to sit on
02:03:34
the the subway or the tube or the metro
02:03:37
or whatever by myself. I I get out I get
02:03:40
out my phone. I don't it it prevents me
02:03:42
from having to have dialogue. So
02:03:45
instead, I'd rather just look at my
02:03:46
phone and watch and scroll versus
02:03:49
communicating. Like there's imagine
02:03:52
waiting for your haircut and everybody
02:03:55
in the room is actually talking to one
02:03:57
another like they used to and it would
02:03:59
just be wild to you. Everybody in a
02:04:01
doctor's office in the waiting room
02:04:02
everybody's looking at their phone. So
02:04:06
yeah, to me it's such a distraction and
02:04:08
that means even at the house too I think
02:04:10
even more so when it comes to the house.
02:04:12
>> So that was point number two which was
02:04:13
reducing distraction and therefore
02:04:16
increasing presence. Three, stop over
02:04:20
explaining.
02:04:22
You have to invest in the right words.
02:04:25
Meaning, if you are constantly just
02:04:29
gushing words the whole time,
02:04:32
>> does it make you want to listen to that
02:04:34
person more or less?
02:04:36
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, you just kind of
02:04:38
discount it.
02:04:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden, it's it's
02:04:40
kind of like the that story about the
02:04:42
boy who cried wolf. like you you you
02:04:44
talk so much that the message gets lost.
02:04:47
If I'm always
02:04:49
talking a lot, it's easy to tune it out.
02:04:52
It's like it becomes its own static. But
02:04:55
if you choose your words, if I'm going
02:04:57
to slow down, so how do you how do you
02:04:59
stop yourself from overexlaining
02:05:02
instead of being a waterfall? Be a well.
02:05:05
Meaning rather than trying to gush out
02:05:07
information, get them swept away in your
02:05:10
message, you have a confidence in
02:05:13
holding your knowledge. If they have a
02:05:14
question, they'll ask. You're available
02:05:16
for the question should they want to
02:05:18
ask. But I'm going to give you always
02:05:20
exactly what you need if I choose to be
02:05:22
a well with my information rather than
02:05:24
just gushing. Because when I overexlain,
02:05:28
all somebody's doing is indicating that
02:05:30
I don't really know if I believe what
02:05:31
I'm saying or you believe what I'm
02:05:32
saying, so I need to say more. I notice
02:05:34
there's such power in when someone asks
02:05:36
you a question, taking a moment to
02:05:39
think. And actually sometimes I notice
02:05:41
some people will actually say, "Let me
02:05:42
just think about that."
02:05:43
>> And the minute they do that, I'm I'm
02:05:46
immediately doing the opposite of
02:05:47
discounting what they say. I'm now
02:05:48
actually at baited breath to think about
02:05:51
to hear this very thoughtful, considered
02:05:53
thing they're about to share with me.
02:05:54
>> Right.
02:05:55
>> Whereas you see a lot of people do the
02:05:56
opposite. The minute they're asked
02:05:57
anything, it's just like the floodgates
02:05:59
open and they start filling the silence
02:06:00
with and they start thinking out loud.
02:06:02
>> Exactly. They're they're external
02:06:04
thinkers. What I teach is let your first
02:06:06
word be your breath. Meaning when you
02:06:11
put a breath where the first word should
02:06:13
be,
02:06:16
everything else flows. If I start
02:06:19
gushing, what I'm signaling is,
02:06:24
you know, I don't Most people wait until
02:06:26
they're talking to figure out what they
02:06:28
want to say.
02:06:28
>> Yeah. And so they say, "Well, what I
02:06:31
mean to say is,"Well, I say all that to
02:06:32
say because they're still trying to
02:06:34
figure it out." But if you were to ask
02:06:37
me a really hard question and rather
02:06:39
than having that knee-jerk reaction, I
02:06:40
go, "That's a good question.
02:06:44
Let me think." Then you're going to be
02:06:47
you're going to be in it. You're going
02:06:48
to know whatever is about to come out
02:06:50
has actually been thought about, is
02:06:52
actually going to be something you want
02:06:54
to listen to. Now you're going to be
02:06:55
more curious. Now you wait with baited
02:06:58
breath of what's gonna happen. So when
02:07:00
you think of business meetings,
02:07:03
the person who goes, "Oh, actually, you
02:07:05
know, I I disagree with that." If you
02:07:06
look at our latest studies and they just
02:07:07
start
02:07:09
versus when somebody asks, you know,
02:07:11
Stephen, what do you think? And you go
02:07:14
and you just hold that silence, it's
02:07:16
like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to
02:07:18
hear what you said. People who are
02:07:21
confident, they don't have to say
02:07:25
something to show they know something.
02:07:28
They choose their moment. They choose
02:07:32
their timing.
02:07:34
>> It appears they're also the people that
02:07:35
are most likely to turn around and say,
02:07:36
"I don't have the answer to that."
02:07:38
>> Yep. People who are truly confident
02:07:42
know they don't always have to get it
02:07:43
right. They know that they will get it
02:07:45
wrong. Confident people, Confidence does
02:07:48
not mean you have to know all the
02:07:49
answers. Confidence means you know that
02:07:51
you don't. When you have the confidence
02:07:53
of knowing I don't know everything,
02:07:56
all of a sudden you sound a lot more
02:07:57
real. There's also something about you
02:08:00
just being the type of person that's
02:08:01
willing to sit in silence but also just
02:08:03
take up more space and time that signals
02:08:05
respect. The very fact that you would
02:08:07
have the audacity to say someone asks me
02:08:09
a question and I go hm let me just think
02:08:12
about that for a second.
02:08:13
>> It it means that I'm not you talked
02:08:15
about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And
02:08:18
there's something about quite aura about
02:08:21
that. There we go.
02:08:22
>> About the fact that you you you're not
02:08:23
the type of per you're the type of
02:08:24
person that can just take seven seconds,
02:08:26
>> right?
02:08:26
>> Because you are it's you're you're kind
02:08:27
of stealing 7 seconds from everyone
02:08:31
there,
02:08:32
>> right?
02:08:32
>> So that you can think.
02:08:34
>> And you would think that the the harder
02:08:36
the issue, the more time that is
02:08:38
necessary.
02:08:39
>> You would think. Yeah.
02:08:39
>> And instead everybody's equated it to
02:08:41
immediate. it it think when let's say
02:08:45
we're on a a ship and it we're in the
02:08:48
middle of a storm. Who's the person that
02:08:50
they all look to to say, "I'm freaking
02:08:53
out. I'm scared." But the captain isn't.
02:08:57
You know, they he this person knows. He
02:08:59
she knows. And we're constantly looking
02:09:01
for that person in times of emotional
02:09:04
stress. We're we're wanting someone to,
02:09:07
you know, I I'm too anxious, but I can
02:09:09
go to this person because in times of
02:09:11
crisis, they say, "You walk, don't run."
02:09:14
You know, I I'm When I act like I've
02:09:17
been there before, and I've seen this,
02:09:20
I'm telling everybody else, "Oh, oh, if
02:09:24
he's not worried, I shouldn't be
02:09:25
worried. If he's not upset, I don't have
02:09:27
to be upset." A lot of doctors, a lot of
02:09:30
professionals that deal with conflict
02:09:32
and crisis management, it's their job to
02:09:36
be as calm as could be because if they
02:09:39
reacted in a way that set you off or sit
02:09:42
you on edge, well then there's no
02:09:44
there's no anchor and then it's and then
02:09:46
it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just
02:09:48
having that let me think about that for
02:09:49
a second has a different tune of oh wow
02:09:53
this person
02:09:55
they know who they are. They I don't
02:09:57
rush. That's just not what I do.
02:09:59
>> It reminds me of every time I've had
02:10:01
turbulence on a plane and I've looked at
02:10:02
the flight attendant to see if this
02:10:03
thing is going down.
02:10:04
>> That's so good. Yes, I've done that. I I
02:10:07
can't tell you how many times I've done
02:10:08
that where I'm looking at the the
02:10:10
hostess like just walking still passing
02:10:13
out snacks and not bother. I'm like,
02:10:14
"Okay, if he's not bothered, I'm
02:10:16
>> We do that in conversation every day.
02:10:18
We're we're looking for the calm flight
02:10:21
attendants. We're looking for the
02:10:22
anchors, the captains, the people who in
02:10:25
times of stress and turbulence in our
02:10:27
life, we can look to and say, "If
02:10:29
they're okay and if they're good, then
02:10:31
I'm then I can be good." And when you
02:10:32
can be that person for others,
02:10:34
>> you're a leader.
02:10:34
>> Yeah. Always.
02:10:35
>> You are the leader.
02:10:36
>> Mhm.
02:10:37
>> This is probably the defining trait of I
02:10:39
think people that I have employed over
02:10:40
the years that I would consider a leader
02:10:42
or not a leader is how different they
02:10:45
are when [ __ ] has hit the fan.
02:10:47
>> Yes. And if there is seemingly no
02:10:49
difference in the way they're conducting
02:10:52
themselves, leader,
02:10:53
>> yep,
02:10:54
>> emotional regulator. They bring the
02:10:56
temperature down.
02:10:57
>> And then you have the inverse
02:10:59
>> where the minute any kind of sign of
02:11:01
trouble, there's stress, there's
02:11:03
>> there's overwhelm and it's contagious.
02:11:05
And what they need is the calm flight
02:11:07
attendant to regulate them,
02:11:09
>> right? So I think a and people I think
02:11:11
who want to be leaders in their
02:11:13
professional lives should really think
02:11:14
about this like how do you show up when
02:11:16
things are hard. I I always tell the
02:11:19
story of one of my friends called Oliver
02:11:20
who when I employed him must have been
02:11:22
seven eight years ago. Okay he wasn't my
02:11:24
friend when I hired him but the defining
02:11:26
trait of Oliver was that
02:11:30
he would deliver me good and bad news
02:11:36
uh the same
02:11:37
>> Yeah. with the same sort of nonchalant
02:11:41
calm
02:11:43
demeanor. So he'd walk up to me and say,
02:11:45
you know, we've just signed Uber Across
02:11:47
America. We're going to be there. And
02:11:49
then the days where everything was on
02:11:51
fire, he'd walk up to me, Stephen,
02:11:52
Clever Chat. I say, yeah, yeah, cool.
02:11:54
He'd say, just so you know, and then
02:11:55
he'd deliver some of the worst [ __ ] I've
02:11:57
ever heard in my entire life. But he'd
02:11:59
do it in such a calm way that I both I
02:12:02
was calm and I thought he had it under
02:12:05
control,
02:12:05
>> right? And I remember always thinking, I
02:12:07
need to put more people under this guy
02:12:09
>> because he's going to bring us down. And
02:12:11
so I just think as employers, I I
02:12:13
wouldn't have known that my boss or my
02:12:15
employer is thinking this unless someone
02:12:17
had said it to me. They're watching how
02:12:18
I deal with with things when she hears
02:12:21
the fan.
02:12:21
>> They're always watching. And I mean, I
02:12:23
mean, you take people that are are
02:12:25
watching you and your team. You have a
02:12:26
large team. When when you are um upset
02:12:30
and anxious, everybody feels it. It
02:12:33
spreads. But if you're the one that's
02:12:34
calm, it that spreads too. And so it's
02:12:40
and and you have to get to the situation
02:12:42
where if you're upset, then people know
02:12:45
it's something to be upset about of if
02:12:49
you know I had um a friend in college.
02:12:52
He was upset about everything. I mean,
02:12:54
he just was a hotthead and he got upset
02:12:56
about the smallest things. How can you
02:12:58
possibly tell the difference between
02:12:59
what is a small thing and a big thing if
02:13:01
you're always having the same level of
02:13:04
reaction? But if you have a calmness and
02:13:08
let's say then you have an explosion
02:13:10
because it happens because you're human.
02:13:12
That's when people know this is
02:13:14
something serious.
02:13:15
>> Mhm.
02:13:16
>> Because if you always operate at a 10,
02:13:18
nobody's going to appreciate it when
02:13:19
it's really an 11. When you think about
02:13:21
like military generals and leaders, they
02:13:23
also have this other side to them, which
02:13:25
is they do also protect the standard.
02:13:28
And I think this there's a there's a
02:13:30
balance that's almost needed here
02:13:32
between being nonchalant in those
02:13:34
moments where something bad's happened,
02:13:35
we can't control it now, and then how
02:13:38
you defend the standard. So like you
02:13:39
watch the military barracks or whatever
02:13:41
when they're going through training,
02:13:42
these leaders are like screaming at them
02:13:44
about the standards, about the buttons,
02:13:45
about iron your shirt, make your boots
02:13:47
clean.
02:13:49
And so it appears on one end that they
02:13:52
are petty about something and they are
02:13:54
em you know they are these leaders are
02:13:55
emotional. You look at football
02:13:57
managers.
02:13:57
>> Yeah.
02:13:58
>> Or sporting managers.
02:13:59
>> Yeah.
02:14:00
>> They they almost exist in a bit of a
02:14:01
dichotomy which is like knowing when to
02:14:04
be controlled and then knowing when to
02:14:08
be emotionally seemingly emotionally
02:14:11
irrational about something.
02:14:12
>> Yeah. And I think those
02:14:15
those um specific situations are also
02:14:18
part of a system. You know, this is a
02:14:19
system that they've seen produce the
02:14:21
outcome that they want. So they know
02:14:23
that there's a utility to having that
02:14:25
big reaction or there's a purpose behind
02:14:28
it. What I find is the negative is when
02:14:31
you have people who there's not a
02:14:34
utility. They just they don't have the
02:14:37
words. the leaders who let's say curse a
02:14:40
lot because they don't really have the
02:14:42
vocabulary, you know, they they would
02:14:45
rather have big emotional reactions.
02:14:49
But the but when you have that type of
02:14:51
language that is not going to show that
02:14:53
you're in control of your emotions,
02:14:55
you're just less believable.
02:14:58
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>> So that was number three.
02:16:49
>> Yeah.
02:16:50
>> Stop overexplaining yourself. Yeah,
02:16:52
>> the second one was reducing um
02:16:53
distractions and the first was
02:16:54
authenticity. Number four,
02:16:57
>> know how to deal
02:17:00
with their sadness.
02:17:05
A lot of people are hurting that you
02:17:08
don't know are hurting. And a lot of
02:17:10
people are grieving that you don't know
02:17:11
are grieving. Whether it's the holidays,
02:17:14
whether it's a
02:17:16
an important date or event that you
02:17:18
don't know about in their life and
02:17:20
they're hurting and grieving. If you
02:17:22
really want to be a top level
02:17:24
communicator, you need to know not to
02:17:26
say not only when the times are good,
02:17:28
but also when the times are are bad.
02:17:31
>> And how does how does one be there for
02:17:32
someone when they're going through their
02:17:33
moments of sadness? Is there any
02:17:35
principles that one should think about?
02:17:36
>> Yeah. But when somebody is grieving,
02:17:40
what you do not do
02:17:42
is begin with let me know if
02:17:47
if you if if what you are about to say
02:17:50
begins with let me know if it's the
02:17:53
wrong thing to say. Let me know if you
02:17:55
need anything. Let me know if I can do
02:17:57
anything for you. Hey, just just let me
02:17:59
know. Anything you need, let me know.
02:18:02
All you're doing is giving them a chore.
02:18:05
This person's already grieving at this
02:18:07
moment. They
02:18:09
It's They're going through something you
02:18:10
don't even know how to feel and you're
02:18:13
now giving them a chore of they're
02:18:15
supposed to be on their own to have the
02:18:19
ability to pull out their phone, text
02:18:23
their need to you.
02:18:26
That's never going to happen. Have Have
02:18:28
you ever had somebody who say, "Let me
02:18:29
know if you need anything." actually let
02:18:31
you know that they needed something?
02:18:32
>> Never.
02:18:32
>> Never. Because you've now now you've
02:18:35
made it more comfortable on you and now
02:18:39
more of an obligation on them. And we
02:18:41
go, "Well, you know what? I said all I
02:18:43
need to say. I let me know if you need
02:18:45
anything. Let me know how I can help."
02:18:47
Right? When all you've done is just
02:18:50
given them an obligation. You've you've
02:18:52
burdened it even more. Of course, they
02:18:54
don't want to burden you. They don't
02:18:54
want they don't even want to they don't
02:18:56
even want to live in some of these
02:18:57
moments. They they don't want to exist.
02:18:59
and they don't know how to do it. And
02:19:01
saying, "Let me know if isn't going to
02:19:03
help them." Instead, here's what you do
02:19:05
when somebody's grieving. You do the
02:19:07
thing. Whatever you thought about doing,
02:19:10
go do it. If you wanted to bring them
02:19:12
dinner or said, "Let me know if you need
02:19:14
any food," just go get them food. Go do
02:19:16
the task. Go run the errand. Go show up
02:19:19
and do their laundry. Go mow their yard
02:19:22
for them. Go do the thing. If I really
02:19:25
want you to be there for me and you
02:19:27
really want to be there for the other
02:19:28
person, you don't have to ask. You just
02:19:32
go do. And second of all, I find a lot
02:19:35
of time people who are with somebody
02:19:37
who's grieving, they don't know what to
02:19:38
say. They want to say something like I I
02:19:40
want to say something, but I don't I
02:19:41
don't really know what to say. I just I
02:19:42
feel uncomfortable. What I say is not
02:19:45
going to be enough. And so they just
02:19:46
stare at their phone and they kind of
02:19:47
text out a sentence and they delete it
02:19:48
because they don't really know what to
02:19:49
say. The best thing to say is just to
02:19:52
validate how you would assume it's going
02:19:54
to be feeling for them. Nobody deserves
02:19:57
what hap that this is totally unfair. I
02:20:01
can't believe that this happened. Nobody
02:20:03
deserves this. Be be able to express and
02:20:07
confirm that what they're feeling is
02:20:11
exactly what they should be feeling.
02:20:12
Don't go in with the, well, at least
02:20:15
they're in a better place. Hey, you know
02:20:17
what? Everything happens for a reason.
02:20:18
That's not the right time to say that if
02:20:20
ever to to be able to try and make them
02:20:24
feel better of oh you know I just at
02:20:26
least they're you know not is there
02:20:28
anything I can do any of that kind of
02:20:31
stuff it's like yeah I know you can do
02:20:32
you can bring that person back that's
02:20:34
what you can do that's not going to
02:20:35
happen you can't do that and so you
02:20:37
catch yourself in a corner where you
02:20:38
genuinely have an interest like how many
02:20:40
times people say you're in our thoughts
02:20:42
you're my thoughts and prayers thoughts
02:20:44
and prayers you know praying for you and
02:20:47
they haven't once sent up a prayer,
02:20:49
right? They're just saying it. If you
02:20:52
really mean it, text out the prayer to
02:20:54
them.
02:20:56
Text the prayer. Dear God, I'm I just
02:20:58
ask that you be with Stephen right now.
02:20:59
And what? Send the prayer to them. Why
02:21:03
Why not encourage them in that versus
02:21:05
just saying, hey, just keeping you in my
02:21:08
thoughts. If you are, then text them
02:21:11
thinking about you. No need to respond.
02:21:14
You think just putting it in a Facebook
02:21:16
comment is going to do enough? Just here
02:21:18
in our prayers. That's that's not
02:21:21
connection and that's not authentic.
02:21:22
That that's that's the easy shortcut.
02:21:25
>> I think I've spent my whole life
02:21:27
struggling with those moments where some
02:21:28
something bad has happened to someone or
02:21:30
they've been through something and
02:21:31
>> yeah,
02:21:32
>> you you found out over text message and
02:21:34
you don't know what to say.
02:21:35
>> You don't know what to say. You're like,
02:21:38
"I'm so sorry." Um, and the amount of
02:21:42
times I've written something and then
02:21:43
deleted it and written something and
02:21:44
deleted it. And I actually got some
02:21:46
feedback from Samir, um, who is a a very
02:21:50
well-known YouTuber creator, and he's
02:21:52
he's part of a YouTube channel called
02:21:54
Colin and Samir. Their their houses
02:21:56
burnt down in the Palisades fire.
02:21:58
And I'd say what, four, five, six months
02:22:01
later, he came up to me in New York and
02:22:02
said, um,
02:22:04
"Thank you for the message you sent me
02:22:07
because it was specific."
02:22:10
And I know there's a cl we have a clip
02:22:12
of it cuz we were recording at the time.
02:22:13
We were I just come off stage and he was
02:22:15
at his at his event in New York and he'd
02:22:17
come up to me and said it. And it always
02:22:19
stayed with me that he remembered 6
02:22:20
months later. I didn't even really
02:22:21
remember the message I sent. He
02:22:23
remembered 6 months later that when his
02:22:25
house had
02:22:26
>> burnt down, they both just had I think
02:22:28
they both had like less than
02:22:29
one-year-old kids
02:22:31
>> and both of the houses had burnt down. I
02:22:34
sent him something specific I could help
02:22:35
him with.
02:22:36
>> I can't I can't remember the details of
02:22:38
what I said, but he came up and said,
02:22:40
"Thank you for sending me something.
02:22:41
Lots of people sent me messages, but I
02:22:43
remember you sent me something
02:22:44
specific." That hits the theme of when
02:22:46
you stop trying to be
02:22:50
what's most convenient to you
02:22:53
and start doing what might be just a
02:22:55
slightly little bit more uncomfortable,
02:22:57
a little bit more work. The choice to do
02:23:00
something different and be more specific
02:23:02
in the thought to to not just say so
02:23:05
sorry to hear,
02:23:07
>> right? That's that's that's injustice to
02:23:10
be I mean that's that doesn't even touch
02:23:12
it. But if you were to say you were to
02:23:14
say
02:23:16
>> what is happening is totally unfair like
02:23:20
agree with it be specific with it. Same
02:23:23
thing with it's the same with
02:23:24
compliments. The more specific it is the
02:23:26
more genuine it is. The person that you
02:23:29
remember the longest is the person who's
02:23:31
able to be right there with you and say
02:23:34
exactly what you're feeling in that
02:23:36
moment
02:23:36
>> and make a genuine offer to to support a
02:23:39
real Yes. And also not as you said at
02:23:42
the start not an offer that they have to
02:23:44
accept
02:23:45
>> because no one accepts them.
02:23:47
>> Yeah. That or make it a condition that
02:23:50
they have to reach out to you in order
02:23:52
to you consider giving it
02:23:54
>> instead of just doing it or or even when
02:23:57
you feel that like I don't really know
02:24:00
what to to say but I'm you know what if
02:24:02
I were them this is what I'd want and go
02:24:06
do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if
02:24:09
you don't mean it. I mean, that's just
02:24:11
the to me that's a sign of
02:24:15
you're you're not their person because
02:24:18
there's so many people that are just
02:24:20
fair weather friends that they they want
02:24:23
to be there and and be part of the
02:24:24
success, but when your face is on the
02:24:26
floor and you're at rock bottom, the
02:24:29
people you'll remember are the people
02:24:30
that show up.
02:24:32
>> Amen. I've heard that so many times from
02:24:34
my guests on this podcast where they
02:24:35
talk about their hardest moment
02:24:36
>> and it's always who who showed up in
02:24:38
that moment that
02:24:39
>> um number five. If you want to be a
02:24:42
better communicator, you have to know
02:24:44
how to handle the insults, the
02:24:47
backbiting, the dismissive, the
02:24:50
belittling, the patronizing, the words
02:24:53
that people use to try and inflict pain.
02:24:57
What do I do?
02:25:00
If you want to handle somebody who's
02:25:01
trying to hurt you with their words, the
02:25:04
first thing you have to do is have a
02:25:06
bunch of silence or it's five to seven
02:25:09
seconds of
02:25:12
nothing. Make it make it enough to where
02:25:14
it's uncomfortable where they they know
02:25:15
this is not going to be fun. Number two
02:25:18
is you ask them to repeat it. I need you
02:25:22
to say that again. I need you I I need
02:25:25
you to repeat that. Most of the time
02:25:27
people can't do it. And number three, if
02:25:30
I need to, I ask them, "Did you mean did
02:25:33
you mean for that to sound
02:25:37
rude? Did you mean for that to sound
02:25:39
short? Did you mean for that to sound
02:25:40
upsetting?" And what it does is allow
02:25:43
you to be able to
02:25:46
operate in a way that
02:25:50
doesn't allow their words to hurt you or
02:25:52
to touch you or that cut you.
02:25:56
Whenever somebody is saying something
02:25:57
that's to belittle you or insult you,
02:26:00
they're they're putting a big spotlight
02:26:02
on themselves and they're hoping to
02:26:03
throw it on to you to get your reaction.
02:26:05
So, they're going to I'm going to say
02:26:06
something hurtful to you and then it's
02:26:07
like they're turning the spotlight right
02:26:09
to you. And then when you ask a
02:26:12
question, when you have just silence, it
02:26:16
allows their words to kind of echo back
02:26:18
to them. And a lot of people will before
02:26:19
they even have to say anything, they'll
02:26:21
go, I I shouldn't have said that. When
02:26:23
the more silence you have, the more
02:26:24
awkward it becomes and they kind of have
02:26:26
to take it back. They realize you didn't
02:26:28
take the bait. But when you put the
02:26:30
spotlight and you ask the question, did
02:26:31
you do you mean for that to
02:26:34
embarrass me? Did you mean for that to
02:26:37
sound hurtful?
02:26:39
They can't bear the thought of saying
02:26:41
yes to that. So, they have to tweak it.
02:26:43
They have to fix it. They have to go,
02:26:45
"Oh, no, no, no. I mean, what I mean,
02:26:47
what I meant to say was and they they go
02:26:50
a different way." Now, if they were to
02:26:52
double down and say, "Yes, that's
02:26:53
exactly what I meant." You get to say,
02:26:55
"Thank you for letting me know."
02:26:56
>> I was thinking about like the
02:26:57
neuroscience of what's going on there.
02:26:59
>> Yeah.
02:26:59
>> When you get someone to admit that
02:27:01
they're hurtful, um I remember
02:27:04
interviewing some neuroscientists who
02:27:06
talked about this idea of cognitive
02:27:07
dissonance, which is where like we all
02:27:09
have a perception of who we are.
02:27:11
>> Mh. And I guess by what you're doing
02:27:13
there, you're
02:27:16
creating the cognitive dissonance, which
02:27:18
is the cognitive mental discomfort by
02:27:21
making me kind of look in the mirror at
02:27:22
who I
02:27:24
who I just acted like. If I I don't
02:27:27
think I'm a hurtful person.
02:27:28
>> If I say something super hurtful and
02:27:30
then you ask me if I meant to be
02:27:32
hurtful, you're immediately like
02:27:33
speaking to my identity.
02:27:35
>> Yes.
02:27:35
>> And I don't want I'm not a hurtful
02:27:36
person,
02:27:37
>> right? And that's causing the the
02:27:38
dissonance which is the sort of the
02:27:40
disparity between who I think I am and
02:27:42
how I just behaved.
02:27:43
>> Yes.
02:27:43
>> And so I have to alleviate one of them.
02:27:45
I have to make sense.
02:27:46
>> Nobody believes they're on the side of
02:27:48
bad. They always think they're in the
02:27:49
side of good.
02:27:50
>> So you by you saying that to me, I
02:27:52
immediately have to confirm
02:27:53
>> right
02:27:54
>> that I am a person who is intent on
02:27:56
hurting others.
02:27:57
>> Yes.
02:27:58
>> That's not at all what I want to do. I
02:27:59
just wanted to gaslight you a little
02:28:00
bit.
02:28:01
>> I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And
02:28:03
so at that moment, it's what they're
02:28:06
thinking and feeling is I want you to
02:28:07
hurt like I'm hurting. I want you I want
02:28:09
to feel the control because I don't have
02:28:11
a sense of control now and I'm feeling a
02:28:13
certain way. I'm upset. So if I can make
02:28:15
you upset, well then I can have now I
02:28:17
can feel better and more justified about
02:28:19
how I'm feeling. And so some people
02:28:21
will, especially the manipulative ones,
02:28:24
they'll be upset, say something to make
02:28:26
you upset, and then turn around and go,
02:28:28
I don't know why you're so upset.
02:28:30
>> I'm I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't
02:28:31
know why you're you're so upset. And
02:28:33
because they've just left you in it now.
02:28:34
Now they all they've done is just pass
02:28:36
it on to you. Like I don't like this
02:28:38
feeling, so now I'm going to give it to
02:28:40
you and I'm I'm totally good. What are
02:28:41
you talking about?
02:28:43
>> I had a situation in a gym a long time
02:28:45
ago where I was on a machine and a guy
02:28:47
he said that these all these machines
02:28:49
were his so he wanted to use them all.
02:28:51
And he just came up to me. This was a
02:28:53
long long time ago. And he was so like
02:28:57
out of pocket like he was you talked
02:28:59
about being in the pocket.
02:29:00
>> Mhm. super emotional within like 15
02:29:02
seconds this sort of slightly older
02:29:04
gentleman and basically like asked me if
02:29:06
I wanted to have a fight and it was so
02:29:09
bizarre to me that I felt like an
02:29:11
observer and I genuinely
02:29:12
>> Anybody else seen this?
02:29:13
>> No, it was him in the gym and I was so I
02:29:15
was I felt like David Atenburgh like I
02:29:17
was just like
02:29:18
>> and I did it and I inadvertently did
02:29:20
what you said which is my tone didn't
02:29:22
change at all. I spoke to him like this.
02:29:23
I'm like
02:29:24
>> did you just ask me for a fight in the
02:29:25
gym? I was like, and then the more cuz I
02:29:28
asked genuinely like like genuine
02:29:30
curious questions and it immediately
02:29:32
disarmed him.
02:29:33
>> Yes.
02:29:33
>> But don't do that to strangers in the
02:29:35
gym. Oh my god, my tone was so low.
02:29:37
>> Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are
02:29:39
you okay?
02:29:40
>> You know, it's you're having to like
02:29:41
have to check on them for a second
02:29:43
because most of the time when you're
02:29:44
hearing them yell and and say ugly
02:29:47
things, what they're truly signaling is
02:29:49
I'm not okay.
02:29:50
>> It's there's always something else
02:29:52
that's going on. I've done it before
02:29:53
where somebody said something hurtful
02:29:55
and I said, "How did you expect me to
02:29:58
respond to that?" Or, "How were you
02:30:00
wanting me to respond to that?" Or, "How
02:30:02
did you think I was going to respond?"
02:30:04
And it's I've never had it where they
02:30:08
go, "Well, I expected you to say an
02:30:09
insult." Like they it's always them
02:30:12
backpedaling and then trying to explain
02:30:14
how they're feeling in that moment
02:30:16
because they they don't know they don't
02:30:18
know how to to do it. But if I can stop,
02:30:21
put aside like you did your frustration
02:30:24
and say, "Are you asking me for a fight
02:30:26
right now?" You know, are is that what
02:30:29
you're really asking for? That kind of
02:30:31
are you okay kind of thing? That'll all
02:30:33
of a sudden your frustration now goes
02:30:35
away.
02:30:36
>> You've changed the frame completely.
02:30:37
>> Absolutely.
02:30:38
>> Cuz the frame they wanted was
02:30:40
aggression. Maybe that's the the
02:30:41
language or the frame that they know as
02:30:43
the way to solve problems. But yours was
02:30:45
like in that scenario changed to
02:30:47
curiosity, which was like, "What? How
02:30:48
did that
02:30:49
>> Yeah. Anytime you actually have a
02:30:52
mindset of instead of having something
02:30:56
well don't have something to prove have
02:30:59
something to learn. And so in that
02:31:00
moment you could have easily tried to
02:31:02
prove something of who who do you think
02:31:04
you're talking to? Do you know what I
02:31:06
you could have played that card instead
02:31:08
you actually got
02:31:09
>> curious of what's going on here? Are you
02:31:11
asking me for questions are powerful
02:31:14
that way. questions are disarming for
02:31:15
somebody who's trying to be aggressive
02:31:17
with you because they're not looking for
02:31:19
that type of mirror. They don't want a
02:31:22
mirror. They don't want to see the ugly
02:31:25
that they're putting out there. But
02:31:26
anytime somebody has that very
02:31:28
aggressive, I have so many people who
02:31:30
go, if somebody said this to me and was
02:31:33
so ugly and said this horrible thing
02:31:36
and they're looking for a quick
02:31:37
comeback, which I can give it to them,
02:31:39
but if they really care about the
02:31:41
relationship, I say, "Okay, I assume
02:31:43
they said it at normal volume. What's
02:31:45
their need? Like, what are they what are
02:31:47
they really feeling?"
02:31:48
>> Because if you just respond to the
02:31:50
reaction,
02:31:51
you're you're not going to hear the end
02:31:53
of it.
02:31:54
>> And we all have triggers.
02:31:55
>> Same. I I I definitely have mine. I
02:31:57
can't I can't I can't say anything. I'll
02:31:59
tell you one of the biggest things that
02:32:01
has helped me too in
02:32:05
um any any if anybody's wanting to
02:32:08
improve their personal relationships
02:32:10
with a partner or anything. It's one is
02:32:13
understanding validate first.
02:32:17
Frustration comes le next. If I respond
02:32:19
first with frustration, I'm going to
02:32:21
lose every time. So it's validating.
02:32:23
It's saying of course you'd feel this
02:32:24
way. It totally makes sense. I can see
02:32:26
how you feel that way. Acknowledging
02:32:27
that it's okay for them to feel that
02:32:29
way. Otherwise,
02:32:31
the partner is going to feel like I'm
02:32:32
being too much. And if I'm being too
02:32:34
much, then you're going to leave, right?
02:32:36
It's the it's the same sense of
02:32:37
abandonment. So, if I can hit that,
02:32:38
you're not being too much. I have the
02:32:40
capacity and the I can be elastic in
02:32:43
this relationship because I'm not going
02:32:46
to be my best self all the time, too.
02:32:47
But if I can give you a safe space for
02:32:49
you to be messy and me to be messy, then
02:32:51
you're actually going to have that
02:32:52
relationship. Number two, it's
02:32:54
understanding that
02:32:57
resets is your
02:33:00
uno wild card. Asking for a reset for if
02:33:04
I were to say, you know what, I didn't
02:33:05
say that right.
02:33:07
You know what? Can I can I try that
02:33:08
again? I didn't say that the best way,
02:33:11
did I? You know, I I could have done
02:33:13
that better. As soon as I start and ask
02:33:15
for a reset, I've never had anybody told
02:33:17
me no. Nobody goes, "No, no, you have to
02:33:19
stick with it right now. Go ahead. Keep
02:33:20
failing." Like we in a video game, we
02:33:22
wouldn't Why would you keep playing if
02:33:24
you knew you're ultimately going to
02:33:25
lose? It's you restart. You try again.
02:33:27
And so giving yourself the grace and the
02:33:30
other person the grace to have the
02:33:31
ability to start over again is a
02:33:34
necessary part of communicating in
02:33:36
relationships. And three is slice it
02:33:38
thinner. A lot of the times if we're
02:33:42
having a big conversation,
02:33:44
we bring up somebody might bring up the
02:33:46
past that past thing and we just kind of
02:33:48
add it on and clummit on when we start
02:33:52
to kind of feel hopeless about it. But
02:33:53
if I can slice each issue by itself and
02:33:56
say, I do want to talk about this. I
02:33:59
want to address what's in front of us
02:34:00
first, that makes everything go a whole
02:34:03
lot better. But if I can slice each part
02:34:05
and see the need and validate that, I've
02:34:08
always seen that go better.
02:34:10
>> And on that first point about um how you
02:34:13
engage with your your partner during
02:34:16
conflict, one of the most useful things
02:34:18
I heard recently was a clip I actually
02:34:20
saw of Bnee Brown talking about when she
02:34:23
comes home after like a long day.
02:34:24
>> Yeah.
02:34:26
>> She will tell her partner how much she
02:34:28
has in the tank.
02:34:30
>> It's so good. And so she'll turn to her
02:34:31
partner and say, "Listen, I've got 10%.
02:34:34
>> I can't do this today."
02:34:36
>> Right?
02:34:36
>> And I remember getting the clip and
02:34:38
sending it to my partner because it's
02:34:41
those that's some of the vocabulary that
02:34:42
probably would have really helped a lot
02:34:44
of my relationships, which is just first
02:34:46
expressing where I'm operating from.
02:34:48
>> So good.
02:34:50
>> And I don't think anybody is going to be
02:34:52
on the receiving end of honestly, I've
02:34:53
got like 10% in the tank today and go,
02:34:55
"Nope, I want to do this now." Like
02:34:57
>> exactly. Well, using percentages in
02:34:59
conversation is incredibly helpful. Both
02:35:01
in relationships, like Bnee mentioned,
02:35:03
of saying, you know what, I got 10%, you
02:35:05
got 40%, let's put it together, and
02:35:07
we're going to make it work, but I at
02:35:08
least know where you're coming from.
02:35:10
Same thing at work, right? I've seen
02:35:12
what I encourage is when people are in a
02:35:15
meeting and they can put out an idea,
02:35:17
right? Rather than going, "What if?"
02:35:20
Because what happens is everybody just
02:35:21
starts to kill it, you know? They start
02:35:23
pointing arrows at it because it's
02:35:25
because it wasn't their idea. So, we
02:35:27
need to tank it down. But if they come
02:35:29
at it and say, "Look, I got 30% of an
02:35:32
idea," then what happens magically is
02:35:35
that everybody else wants to join in.
02:35:37
So, if I were to say, "Look, I Steve, I
02:35:39
got 20% of an idea. I need your help
02:35:42
with the other 80." All of a sudden, you
02:35:43
take it as a, "Oh, me? I can I can do
02:35:46
that." And then everybody else starts to
02:35:48
build it up rather than trying to tear
02:35:50
it down. Or even if in conversation, if
02:35:52
I say, "Look,
02:35:54
I know I'm not going to have the right
02:35:55
words. I'm going to have about 60% of
02:35:58
it. Like that. At least is me confirming
02:36:00
that I know what I'm saying is not going
02:36:02
to always be the right thing to say.
02:36:04
>> I wish I did that more. This is um I
02:36:06
believe this is the clip I'm talking
02:36:07
about. It was Tim Ferris.
02:36:08
>> Everyone says marriage should be 50/50.
02:36:10
It's the biggest crack of [ __ ] I've
02:36:12
ever heard. It's never 50/50.
02:36:13
>> Yeah.
02:36:14
>> Ever. And so what we do is we quantify
02:36:17
where we are. So if Steve comes home and
02:36:19
he'll be like, I got 20. Just in terms
02:36:21
of energy,
02:36:22
>> just energy, investment, kindness,
02:36:25
patience, I'm at a 20 and I'll be like,
02:36:28
I'll cover you. I got you, brother.
02:36:30
Like, I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we
02:36:32
come home, which we have done a lot. My
02:36:34
mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've
02:36:37
got 10. And Steo, like two days ago
02:36:39
said, I'm riding a solid 25. So, we know
02:36:43
that we have to sit down at the table
02:36:45
anytime we have less than 100 combined
02:36:47
and figure out a plan of kindness toward
02:36:49
each other.
02:36:49
>> Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing
02:36:51
is marriage is not something that's
02:36:53
50/50. A partnership works when you can
02:36:56
carry their 20 or they can carry your
02:36:58
20. And that when you both just have 20,
02:37:02
you have a plan where you don't hurt
02:37:03
each other.
02:37:04
>> So good.
02:37:05
>> That's the mistake I've made multiple
02:37:06
times.
02:37:06
>> Oh. I try and solve big problems with
02:37:08
10.
02:37:09
>> That's the mistake we make every day.
02:37:10
>> Yeah. I mean, for me and with Sierra and
02:37:12
I, it's usually if we're in a part of an
02:37:14
argument, typically our arguments end
02:37:16
pretty quickly, but the ones that go
02:37:18
long,
02:37:20
it's sometimes, you know, I just don't
02:37:22
feel like it. You know, I I could give
02:37:24
an apology, you could give an apology,
02:37:25
and some I just don't feel I don't feel
02:37:26
like being sorry right now. I will
02:37:28
later, but I in the moment, I'm just
02:37:31
>> I I I I just got this stuff in me and
02:37:33
I'm not ready yet. And so what happens
02:37:36
for me and what's been so helpful is
02:37:38
when I'm aggravated at that edge and I
02:37:40
don't want to give a thing is to say
02:37:44
my battery's in the red like we say in
02:37:45
the red because of
02:37:47
>> you know iPhone it's like I'm once I
02:37:49
know I'm in that place we know to time
02:37:51
out because it's or else you'd be two
02:37:53
hours in and you're still now you've
02:37:55
just said way worse things you know that
02:37:58
you're going to apologize for and so
02:37:59
often when the quicker you can get to a
02:38:02
timeout like if you want to know how
02:38:04
well a a relationship communicates. Look
02:38:07
how often they take timeouts because
02:38:09
timeouts are I mean they're
02:38:14
the the amount of value you get in just
02:38:17
a pause and then even five minutes
02:38:20
coming back to it. you have a different
02:38:22
like okay here we go like a fresh fresh
02:38:24
start like why would you leave somebody
02:38:27
on the field for three hours and never
02:38:30
give them a rest and you think I can't I
02:38:34
we do it physically but I'm not going to
02:38:35
do it mentally like if you if you want
02:38:38
to know
02:38:41
the key to the relationship
02:38:44
the metric that is the most valuable key
02:38:48
to a relationship is that the measure
02:38:52
The quality of the conversation
02:38:54
is equal to the quality of the
02:38:56
relationship. Said differently, the
02:38:59
quality of the relationship is equal to
02:39:01
the quality of the communication. You
02:39:04
look at all these couples that are
02:39:06
divorcing,
02:39:08
okay? Or the couples that are in bad
02:39:12
states.
02:39:14
It's because they were okay in the
02:39:16
positive, but they don't know how to
02:39:18
deal deal with the negative. So, it's
02:39:21
it's the measure of not just can we talk
02:39:23
about the happy stuff, the if you talk I
02:39:26
I talk to these elderly couples that
02:39:28
have been married for 50 years and I
02:39:30
say, "What's what's your secret?" It's
02:39:32
it's not can you be happy in the happy.
02:39:34
It's can you how long can you sit with
02:39:37
the hard and how how long can you be in
02:39:39
the in the sad times because those are
02:39:42
going to happen. And I see that so many
02:39:44
with the people. There's so many people
02:39:46
who communicate with me or message or
02:39:49
and they're going through a divorce or
02:39:50
they have been divorced and you realize
02:39:53
that it's it's not often that they fell
02:39:56
out of love. They fell out of
02:39:58
communication. They they stopped talking
02:40:01
to each other.
02:40:03
This is I think one of the great myths
02:40:04
we're sold when we get into our first
02:40:06
relationship is we think that the sign
02:40:08
of a good relationship is the lack of
02:40:10
conflict. But if you've ever been in a
02:40:12
long relationship, I think over time you
02:40:14
start to figure that it's not the amount
02:40:16
of conflict. It's like it's it's how one
02:40:19
manages the conflict. I read a quote
02:40:21
which I've never forgotten which said
02:40:23
you can predict the long-term health of
02:40:24
a relationship by whether each cut heals
02:40:26
to 101% or 99%.
02:40:29
>> I.e. does your conflict make you
02:40:31
stronger?
02:40:31
>> Yeah. And if I look back through the
02:40:33
conflict that I've had with like my
02:40:34
partner that I've been with a long time
02:40:35
now, I go it has actually
02:40:39
deepened the roots.
02:40:41
>> Yeah, it has to
02:40:42
>> like it's been productive conflict.
02:40:44
>> Mhm.
02:40:44
>> You know, which has made us stronger. Um
02:40:47
and that and that in part is because of
02:40:49
many of the things that you talk about
02:40:51
which is like trying not to win every
02:40:53
argument,
02:40:54
>> right?
02:40:55
>> And all the things in your book. It's
02:40:56
>> Yeah. Well, that's Sierra. That's what
02:40:59
Sierra talks about. Either way, it's
02:41:00
good. Like it's the conflict. You want
02:41:02
conflict in your relationship for the
02:41:05
growth. It is rare that you can have
02:41:07
individual growth alone.
02:41:09
>> It has to be relational
02:41:11
>> 100%.
02:41:11
>> It has to be with other people. I I I
02:41:13
can read a book on how to do something,
02:41:15
but until I do it,
02:41:18
>> it's it's a totally different game. So I
02:41:20
I I
02:41:21
learn relationally with things and with
02:41:24
other people and places, but for sure
02:41:26
relationship, I mean, there's just no
02:41:28
there's no other way to go around it.
02:41:30
you have to have the conflict if you
02:41:32
want to be if you want to be better. And
02:41:34
I I've seen so many times where the
02:41:36
people um they
02:41:40
face in their hands, they don't know how
02:41:41
to talk to one another because they gave
02:41:45
up on trying to repair, but they're
02:41:48
they're all in on trying to blame. Mhm.
02:41:50
>> And so when you are trying to
02:41:53
kind of undo what has to be done that
02:41:56
makes it all the more difficult because
02:41:57
it's just so many years where there
02:41:59
could have been repair but there there
02:42:02
hasn't been and in turn that really
02:42:04
hurts the relationship. I read a recent
02:42:06
study that the biggest predictor of the
02:42:11
child's well-being within the parental
02:42:13
relationship
02:42:15
is not whether they were married or
02:42:16
divorced. It was how they dealt with
02:42:19
conflict.
02:42:21
>> I mean, because how many people have had
02:42:22
parents that are still together but
02:42:24
fight terribly?
02:42:25
>> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah.
02:42:26
>> And in in fact should probably maybe not
02:42:28
be together.
02:42:29
>> Yeah.
02:42:30
>> Or those that they're divorced but
02:42:33
communicate. Great.
02:42:35
>> Yeah.
02:42:35
>> And they never put their child in the
02:42:37
middle of it and didn't use the child as
02:42:39
a a male carrier between the two. to to
02:42:42
be able to do that is I mean you're you
02:42:45
get to change the whole trajectory of of
02:42:47
a child's life
02:42:48
>> at some point. We have to forgive our
02:42:49
parents, right?
02:42:50
>> Yeah, that's that's the truth.
02:42:52
>> Like you said, like they were they were
02:42:54
kids too, raised by parents that
02:42:57
>> this is their first time still doing it.
02:42:58
You know,
02:43:01
>> you have a workbook on its way in March
02:43:02
10th called the next conversation
02:43:05
workbook.
02:43:05
>> Yeah. practical exercises for arguing
02:43:08
less and talking more, which really
02:43:09
takes everything that you wrote about
02:43:10
and turns it into an actionable
02:43:12
blueprint framework for people that
02:43:14
really want to embed these habits into
02:43:16
their lives. Um, I'm going to link that
02:43:19
below. Is that available for pre-order?
02:43:20
Will it be? Yeah, there'll be a
02:43:21
pre-order link. So, we'll put that in
02:43:22
the description below. You're also
02:43:23
working on some AI stuff, which I think
02:43:24
was interesting.
02:43:25
>> Yeah. Thank you. So, I'm about to
02:43:27
release an AI of just my content. So it
02:43:31
has my book, it has my podcasts, it has
02:43:33
my you any of my social clips of it has
02:43:36
it all. And so it's a small language
02:43:38
model to where it's everybody can have
02:43:41
their own personal communication expert,
02:43:43
you know, 247 kind of thing. It's what
02:43:45
they have on it, but where people get to
02:43:48
practice. So what I love about it the
02:43:50
most is let's say you you say I'm about
02:43:53
to go into a important meeting and I
02:43:55
want to sound really confident. What can
02:43:56
I do? or I'm about to have a my spouse
02:44:00
isn't listening or really upset. What
02:44:02
could I do? You apply those right in
02:44:05
that that moment and gives you a
02:44:07
different way of perspecting a different
02:44:09
way of seeing things from a different
02:44:11
view or what I definitely what I've uh
02:44:15
like is to tell it to be a boss. Be my
02:44:19
boss who's really mean and arrogant and
02:44:21
let's do an exercise of how to respond
02:44:23
to this situation. and you test is that
02:44:27
response going to be the best response
02:44:29
and allow it to kind of have a a
02:44:32
different way of practicing things that
02:44:34
maybe you need to be ready for cuz some
02:44:35
people need to be ready for the hard
02:44:36
response.
02:44:37
>> I'll link that below too.
02:44:39
>> Yeah.
02:44:39
>> So people can have a play with that and
02:44:41
sign up.
02:44:41
>> I'm excited.
02:44:42
>> We have a closing tradition where the
02:44:43
last guest leaves a question for the
02:44:44
next question left for you is who are
02:44:47
you most dying to meet and why?
02:44:50
>> Oh, that's a great one.
02:44:53
um
02:44:55
person I would love to meet right now
02:45:00
is probably Bnee Brown. That's probably
02:45:02
it. Really, the fact that you brought
02:45:04
her up. The reason why is because
02:45:07
>> I know that she's been in the space a
02:45:09
long time. And I feel that when she
02:45:12
shares stuff, it's very genuine. Like
02:45:15
there's no guessing that she's real.
02:45:18
>> Yeah. She's about as real and raw as
02:45:20
authentic as you can get. She's also a
02:45:23
Longhorn Texas Longhorn fan which I'm a
02:45:25
fan, but I feel like when and this is
02:45:28
just me personally, I kind of got pushed
02:45:30
into this field
02:45:33
and you you always look for people that
02:45:36
are your own anchors in life of who
02:45:38
you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing.
02:45:40
And that's somebody who's I feel like
02:45:43
has
02:45:44
been in the the world and and knows some
02:45:47
things and has just some incredible
02:45:48
knowledge that's helped a lot of people.
02:45:52
>> She's most certainly authentic. She's
02:45:54
incredible.
02:45:55
>> Yeah.
02:45:55
>> Well, I listen, if people haven't bought
02:45:57
your book, which is almost nobody, but
02:45:59
if there are still some people out there
02:46:00
that have haven't bought this book, I
02:46:02
highly recommend it. I think I um
02:46:03
included it in my Smith collection as
02:46:05
well in the UK. You did such a smash hit
02:46:09
success. It's a success on two
02:46:11
dimensions. It's sales and it's impact.
02:46:13
>> Thank you.
02:46:14
>> And um it's also incredibly accessible.
02:46:16
So it's not like a a complicated science
02:46:18
book and it's written for normal people
02:46:20
that are going through very real
02:46:21
relatable normal problems. And um I
02:46:24
think that's why it's been so
02:46:25
successful. I think you you approach
02:46:26
these challenges from a very real place.
02:46:29
And maybe that's in part why it's been
02:46:32
so wonderfully received and so relatable
02:46:34
is because, you know, you're a trial
02:46:37
attorney that's bringing this stuff to
02:46:39
the masses, but you're not like a PhD
02:46:42
scholar who might have draw thrown up
02:46:44
the drawbridge because they they they've
02:46:45
spent all their life in academia.
02:46:47
>> And I think the way that you communicate
02:46:49
is so relatable and resonant that it's
02:46:51
no wonder that you're you've been on an
02:46:53
absolute unbelievable terror over the
02:46:55
last couple years.
02:46:56
>> It's phenomenal. Like crazy crazy
02:46:58
incredible. So congratulations and thank
02:47:00
you from all the people that you've
02:47:01
given thanks man
02:47:02
>> a little bit of light to a little bit of
02:47:04
um
02:47:05
>> you've empowered them with information
02:47:07
so that they can live the life that they
02:47:08
um they deserve to live. That's a
02:47:09
special thing Jefferson.
02:47:10
>> I appreciate it. Thank you Ste.
02:47:15
>> If there's anything we need it is
02:47:17
connection especially in the world we're
02:47:19
living in today. And that is exactly why
02:47:21
we created these conversation cards.
02:47:23
Because on this show, when I sit here
02:47:25
with my guests and have those deep,
02:47:27
intimate conversations, this remarkable
02:47:29
thing happens time and time again. We
02:47:31
feel deeply connected to each other. At
02:47:34
the end of every episode, the guest I'm
02:47:35
interviewing leaves a question for the
02:47:37
next guest, and we've turned them into
02:47:39
these conversation cards. And we've
02:47:41
added these twist cards to make your
02:47:43
conversations even more interesting. And
02:47:45
there are so many more twists along the
02:47:47
way with the conversation cards. This is
02:47:48
the brand new edition. And for the first
02:47:50
time ever, I've added to the pack this
02:47:52
gold card, which is an exclusive
02:47:54
question from me. But I'm only putting
02:47:57
the gold cards in the first run of
02:48:00
conversation cards. So get yours now
02:48:02
before the limited edition gold cards
02:48:03
are all gone. Head to the link in the
02:48:05
description below.
