00:00:00
before we start I've got to be honest with you about something um when we recorded this episode with
00:00:06
Mel c um it was honestly one of the most moving heartbreaking inspiring revealing
00:00:11
conversations I've ever had on this podcast and I've been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you for
00:00:17
some time now um and then we had an incident where one
00:00:22
of our hard drives was stolen and we lost the audio for Mel's mic which is
00:00:29
really really heartbreaking because of all the episodes to lose the audio for for it to be this one is has been very
00:00:36
hard to deal with and I think I want to start by apologizing to Mel because she came here she shared her story in such a
00:00:41
profound vulnerable way and I've carried the sense of guilt because um because when people come here not
00:00:47
only are they giving us their time but they're giving us their story and for some people
00:00:52
as is the case in this conversation it's the first time that that story has been shared in this way so I've been really
00:00:58
struggling with that but because it was such a profound story and to to make sure we honor all of that which Mel gave
00:01:05
us by coming here um we spent a lot of time fixing the the audio we do have which actually comes
00:01:11
from one of the cameras that's rolling not from the microphone in front of her we've worked with a specialist to try
00:01:16
and repair the audio as much as we possibly can and this is one of the episodes where I'm asking you for a
00:01:21
favor which is to stay with us I know it's not always easy to listen to audio when it's not as crisp as this audio sounds right now but there's a story
00:01:29
underneath the um lack of clarity in the audio the lack of Christmas crispness in the audio that needs to be heard it's
00:01:35
one of the most amazing Stories we've ever shared um and so I hope you enjoyed this episode and we've put many many many
00:01:41
many many many many many many many measures in place to make sure that we never lose any audio or any footage ever
00:01:48
again in this case it was out of our control but um this episode is worth it so we're
00:01:53
putting it out anyway you're gonna enjoy it there's an element of guilt attached to my success it was
00:02:00
join us do you know because I had a secret and it was killing me [Music]
00:02:11
early days of the Spice Girls were the best and I feel blessed but with it has
00:02:17
been some really tough times it was [ __ ] dramatic how it went out
00:02:25
the tablet media were burrito we all got called a terrible horrible things
00:02:33
did you notice a change in yourself at all after that definitely that was the Catalyst why I became very very ill I
00:02:39
couldn't control my eating I was struggling to get out of bed it's killing me [Music]
00:02:46
I think did becoming famous ruin my life does it
00:02:52
ruin me sometimes I question um
00:02:57
yeah
00:03:06
without further Ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then
00:03:13
please keep this to yourself [Music]
00:03:23
when I when I sit here with people I'm I I always try and figure out the best starting point I always know I'm going
00:03:28
to start at the very beginning but with you when I was reading through your story it was quite clear to me that
00:03:33
the things that shaped you started at a very very young age I'm talking when you were two three and four years old so can
00:03:40
you take me right back to the very start I'm guessing that's like sort of 1976-ish it is and you're right you know
00:03:48
things that happen to me when I was a toddler really defined a lot of who I
00:03:53
became I grew up just outside Liverpool and I was born in Western Hospital my
00:04:00
parents and I lived in a place called Vine Hill and they divorced when I was I
00:04:07
think I was about three years old and my life kind of quite quickly changed you know as lots of young people
00:04:14
would be affected like that and yeah that was where the story began I think
00:04:20
me developing this need to succeed when you say your life changed give me a
00:04:26
color to what that means for you so I was living quite comfortably with mum and dad you know the kind of happy
00:04:33
archetypal family life and my mum and we left me and my mum left and we went to
00:04:40
live with my grandparents and then we we went to live um in quite a different area we were
00:04:46
still only about 30 minutes away but it was quite different we went into um Council accommodation and
00:04:53
my um quite quickly my mum was in a new relationship so there was this new guy
00:04:59
around and it was just kind of it just you know looking back it was just very
00:05:04
different it's to the world I'd entered into when I first turned upon this planet
00:05:10
what was your um your family's sort of economic situation throughout this journey was it were you a working class
00:05:16
family or absolutely yeah I mean my family still are you know very working class you know through the generations
00:05:23
and my mum and dad were doing you know they were doing good we had a lovely semi-attached house in a in a nice
00:05:29
suburb of you know Liverpool and obviously with my mum leaving dad as
00:05:35
today you know lots of couples find that it is very difficult to to start again
00:05:41
um so we were yeah going into a situation where it was hard for mum to make ends meet so it was yeah it was it
00:05:48
was quite a tough area to be um to be growned up in where was your dad
00:05:54
so dad was still in the house in the house you'd been raised in for those first few years and then after I think a
00:06:01
couple of years he went traveling and um yeah and then he went to work abroad
00:06:06
actually so I've always seen a lot of my dad but there were periods of times when he was away so
00:06:12
um yeah so it was a bit of a shake-up quite early because the formative years aren't they when you're that little you
00:06:18
don't think about it because as a child your life is your life but I think when you start to think about who you are and
00:06:24
how you became that person you start to you just kind of pinpoint maybe little
00:06:30
moments that put you on that track so when you look back to that that
00:06:35
experience of your parents separating at a very young age and then you're life shifting and um in hindsight what impact did that
00:06:42
have on you like when you look back and connect those dots and go oh that that's the reason for that I think it kind of confused me I think
00:06:50
as a young person to have my location change you know to be taken from the
00:06:57
family home and obviously all the time so I didn't understand you know I didn't understand adult relationships I didn't
00:07:03
understand why it was happening so this little series of events and then that you know I have a new I've got a
00:07:10
stepdad and then I had a new sibling and then I had Step Brothers and so there
00:07:15
was just there was just quite a lot of big things happening in my little world and it made me just kind of confused to
00:07:24
like where I belonged who I was how I fitted in to that new Dynamic and you know as I
00:07:32
got older and my dad remarried and I have this incredible family it's very complicated and it's huge and I have
00:07:38
half siblings and step siblings and step parents and and it's lovely but I think
00:07:44
for me being the only child of my mum and dad sometimes made me feel a little bit of a spare part
00:07:51
and I think that's what made me feel like I had to make myself a place in the
00:07:57
world my own place in the world and I think also it was about kind of earning
00:08:02
the love of these people I kind of felt like I had to prove that I was worthy of existence it sounds melodramatic but I
00:08:10
think as a as a young person you I mean especially going through my teenage
00:08:15
years you question everything don't you you know why I'm here and a lot of that
00:08:20
for me was like do I deserve to be here and so I had to make myself worthy of
00:08:25
being here and you think that started because of the your parents separation and in this new context of these other
00:08:31
siblings that were felt maybe belonged more than yeah I I think I think
00:08:37
especially when you know both my parents remarried and they're both really happily remarried and have gone on to
00:08:43
have more children and I love my parents and I love my stepparents and all of my siblings
00:08:48
but for me I sometimes feel quite alone and I think that it is what propelled me
00:08:54
and some of the issues I went on to have in later life you know for good and for
00:09:00
bad you know I think there's been real benefits to those feelings and to make me very determined
00:09:06
um very conscientious but also it's going to be very hard on myself and a little bit of a perfectionist
00:09:12
one of the things that I was quite surprised to read was this almost contradiction between you you really looked up to your dad
00:09:17
you I think you wrote your book that you almost worshiped him but then when he left it was almost like there wasn't
00:09:22
there wasn't a reaction from you yeah I know it's so strange to me
00:09:29
it's hard when you're that young isn't it because your own memories are such little tiny Snippets and you remember
00:09:35
and we all remember things but for my dad you know I did I put him on a pedestal and I still do you know he's my
00:09:42
hero and he always will be oh yeah he ran away and he went away for his own reasons and as an adult completely
00:09:49
understand that you know and he needed to do that but yeah I kind of shut down I think and
00:09:55
I think I kind of I have learned in my life which has been really useful in my career that I can have these incredibly
00:10:03
intense emotional feelings but they have to be buried
00:10:09
not help me but helpful sometimes in the short term yeah yeah but I think
00:10:17
if you if your knowledge you know you have the knowledge that you do that I think that can help
00:10:23
and just maybe not doing it or or trying to not do it
00:10:28
is that the first time you you kind of recall that those early years where you think you might have just buried a set
00:10:33
of emotions and not addressed them that that blocking out of it just to keep on keeping on yeah I think I I think some
00:10:40
of it is my personality but I think some of it was circumstance kind of I
00:10:46
I don't I don't want to cause people problems I want to always make sure everybody's okay
00:10:51
um and I think that's a lot to do with worthiness you know feeling unworthy potentially
00:10:58
um just just so I'm completely clear in my own mind because I I don't want to make any assumptions that feeling of
00:11:03
like not feeling worthiness came from that dysfunctional family Dynamic that's the first sort of hint you have of it I
00:11:10
I think so I think looking back you know I grew up in the 70s and 80s and
00:11:15
for me in environment I was in I was at time it was it was about parents separated all of my
00:11:23
friendship group they had to me what I saw as their happy family you know the
00:11:29
family unit and I longed for that and I didn't have that and it made me different and obviously you know if I
00:11:37
forwarded today and I think it's probably rarer to have the family humid
00:11:42
you know life has changed so much so that's how it affected me at the time it made me feel like yeah an outsider and a
00:11:50
bit strange you moved to um runcorn with your mother which is um where the council estate is
00:11:57
where you lived what that area isn't a good area back then yeah you know I mean runcorn is
00:12:04
it's like a satellite town of Liverpool and lots of people you know it's kind of like over spill and lots of people were
00:12:11
out there in this this particular estate that we we got housed in was it was
00:12:16
built and it was obviously there were so many families I needed to be housed very much like today
00:12:22
and it was this oh like a bizarre architecture and we had these huge round
00:12:28
windows in these little houses about I used to call them the Lego houses because they were like blue and yellow
00:12:34
it was you know I suppose at the time it seemed very forward thinking but I think
00:12:39
unfortunately you know it was it was one of those environments of which there were still many
00:12:45
um were you know problems can occur because it's it's kind of set up there
00:12:50
are you know there are just opportunities I suppose for people to be quite discreet and there was you know lots of people
00:12:56
there who were struggling and it was I think it was knocked down I think they started knocking it down in about 1980
00:13:03
because it just kind of got yeah to run down I think when you um when you
00:13:09
look back on your father's decision to leave is there any feelings of like I don't know
00:13:16
animosity towards that decision to for him to leave your life I understand the separation but for him to then be absent
00:13:25
seems like it was from reading your book The Catalyst moment for other things to then happen has there ever been any
00:13:31
animosity towards when you reflected on it as you grew up no really no that
00:13:36
really hasn't because I think you know just that thing of being a kid and your life is your life you know so it's just
00:13:43
that you get killed something like oh okay then and I think when I became a parent and I think about my daughter and
00:13:49
obviously I work away a lot you know um but I just
00:13:56
yeah it's it's weird I don't think you really fully I didn't you ever fully understand your parents but I think you
00:14:02
get a much better understanding of them when you become a parent you know but at the end of the day I think as a child
00:14:08
you look up to these adults thinking you know they know how everything should be and how everything should be done and
00:14:14
then when you become an adult you're like you know I'm 50 in a year and a half and I still haven't got a clue so
00:14:19
and I still feel like a child you know and my mum says I feel like a teenager
00:14:25
um can I get that now we're all just trying to figure it out throughout our lives you know I don't think we ever get
00:14:32
to that age where we go yeah I've got it now dancing seemed to be your first love as I was
00:14:38
reading through your story where did that show up where did Dancing come from you know I think like so many young kids
00:14:46
you have this moment where you may go to ballet or disco or whatever the local you know is in the the local club or
00:14:53
whatever and I went on to ballet and tap when I was so little I can't even remember but it must have shook a chord
00:14:59
with me because when we moved to runcorn it was there was no way one could afford for me to do dance classes so I had this
00:15:06
period of time without it we moved to witness when I was I think I was eight years old and that's when I
00:15:12
picked up dancing again and I think I'd really like bugged my mum for years I want to go I think I didn't want to go
00:15:18
back I want to go back and I did Sports at school you know I've always I'm just very active I'm I think was probably one
00:15:24
of those kids who never sat still you know I was always outside I was always upside down or kicking a ball or something and dancing for me it was just
00:15:32
a way of expressing myself and a freedom and it was almost like a safe place
00:15:38
safe place like many performers and I'm sure you've spoken to people who are like this but that I'm quite shy in
00:15:46
certain aspects of my life maybe like in a social aspect and you know being at school like getting my head down I
00:15:52
wasn't very academic I did okay but when I was dancing when I was doing something
00:15:58
creative and being able to express myself I felt very confident and free and alive so yeah dancing school was
00:16:05
where I really felt in my element so so you became a very obsessive
00:16:11
dancer practicer very meticulous yeah I think
00:16:17
the ballet and the training of that and it just really works for me and and
00:16:23
even now you know I have to have an awareness of this that it's to have
00:16:29
those parameters and to have that discipline makes me feel safe I don't really know where that comes
00:16:34
from but I am I'm very hard on myself and I kind of I think I'm a little bit of a
00:16:40
workaholic because I feel like when I'm in a workspace and I'm being very disciplined that I'm safe
00:16:49
one might guess that um if parameters and discipline and that structure makes
00:16:55
you feel safe then there might have been a time where a lack of parameters made you feel unsafe
00:17:01
or a lack of a foundation made you feel unsafe absolutely I'm sure I'm sure I think there was a lot of you know my
00:17:07
mum's a performer and you know it's it's so it's so weird now because obviously I
00:17:13
find myself in in a similar position but she'd be away an awful lot but there'd
00:17:18
be times when I'd be staying with other people or you know having babysitters and you know maybe there was a little
00:17:25
bit of instability felt there and that would definitely make sense a bit of
00:17:30
instability is this are you talking to talking about your nanny yeah yeah there was a little
00:17:43
um you know she felt was was a great person for well but unfortunately you know the
00:17:50
girl she was maybe a little bit too young to take on that responsibility and had kind of moved me out of our home and
00:17:56
I've moved in with with her mum and uh yeah it was all a little bit Shady but yeah as soon as mum found out she put an
00:18:02
end to it but I think I was very quiet about it because I was so little I think I was only about five
00:18:08
so um I chose not to tell her probably didn't want to rock the boat what were you telling her
00:18:14
um that I wasn't at home and that I wasn't being taken care of by the girl she'd employed to take care of me
00:18:21
that feels like uh a light way of saying something that is
00:18:28
a little less light in reality well you know again I was so young it was I don't think it was until I got older that I
00:18:34
thought that's that was probably something that would affect you in a big way but at the time
00:18:40
it was just my life you recite this moment of just waiting for this per this person that was meant to be taking care
00:18:46
of you um just not showing up on many occasions and you having to wait outside and
00:18:52
weighing your pants at one point because you were waiting outside so long yeah I remember getting back from school and we
00:19:00
had these new horrible damn concrete steps up to their flat door and no one
00:19:05
was home and yeah just busting for the toilet and yeah I wet myself and luckily
00:19:10
the neighbor came home and she took me in and kind of cleaned me up and yeah so that's I mean again I was so
00:19:19
young there's there's just these little flushes of memories of those things I think I think when you're when you're
00:19:25
young you maybe don't it's not that those I think about my own life like it's not that those things don't aren't impacting you it's you don't you're not
00:19:31
really aware of the impact they're having or the stories that they're they're making you write about yourself and about your situation
00:19:38
um and then obviously often times it seems that we including myself then see the consequences of it and in hindsight
00:19:45
have to sort of piece together where that came from but that's I mean when I when I read that
00:19:51
um in your book I was I mean that's that's almost like criminal negligence to treat a child in
00:19:57
such a way and I think about the your the departure of your father your mum then departing to go and pursue her
00:20:03
career and then you you're ultimately ending up on these steps you know urinating your underwear because
00:20:08
of this negligent uh nanny and that's you know that that's where I think oh that is you know that must have
00:20:15
been formative in to some to some degree yeah I mean you know I'm a good believer
00:20:20
in therapy and I've been having it for many years um probably I only started to do that
00:20:26
because of my time with the Spice Girls and how much of a head [ __ ] that was but it's
00:20:31
really interesting because you do look at your habits and the
00:20:37
things that you do and why you do them and so much of it comes back to your childhood dancing was your first love
00:20:44
um you you become very disciplined at that and eventually off you go to um study in London and that's where you
00:20:50
find singing yeah which you hadn't had you been doing it before you know because my mum was a
00:20:57
singer and she had deals in the 70s she had a couple of record deals with different
00:21:02
bands but you know it hadn't worked out the way she would have liked it to
00:21:07
um you know she did great but didn't get to those Heights that all of us performed together
00:21:12
so I just knew growing up it's really really hard working in the music industry is really difficult
00:21:19
so you know my young brain goes okay I want to be a pop star but
00:21:26
it's really hard so I love dancing and I love singing so theater because I loved
00:21:32
musical theater as well I went to perform regards college and I was pursuing that and I'd sung a little
00:21:39
bit but I just I never really had confidence in my voice but there was this like weird thing of
00:21:45
it just gave me so much joy actually more joy than dancing
00:21:50
I was in college I was in my second year and we had these competitions that would happen every year and I was singing a
00:21:57
song and it was the first time I just had a moment with an audience where they I just really felt this energy this
00:22:03
transaction between myself and them and it was when I was singing and it that was it for me that was the moment it was
00:22:09
like it is singing that is it that is what I have to do So eventually you um un 400 other
00:22:17
young women respond to a advert in a magazine what
00:22:22
was that advert okay so what I so the stage newspaper was when you leave
00:22:28
perform regards College you're an actor a dancer singer whatever you're going for your auditions the stage is where
00:22:34
you find your auditions find myself an audition I didn't want to be out handed a flyer for a girl band
00:22:41
and I'm like that's it and that's what I'm gonna do you get handed a flyer a lot of people
00:22:48
are being handed that flyer did you know then that you would you said that's it that's what I want to do did you know then that you wanted to be
00:22:54
in a girl band or did you mean that's it I'm gonna apply and I think that's more befitting of what I where I want to go
00:23:03
it's hard no exactly yeah of course but my telling of the
00:23:10
story is I mean I just had a really strong feeling at that time that I was
00:23:16
gonna whatever this thing was I was going to be a part of it and it was
00:23:21
going to be something incredible what did that fly say I think it said something like are you
00:23:26
18 to 24 I think it was like the wording of it Street wise can dancing fun-loving
00:23:34
I don't know but it was yeah it was just basically an audition an open audition
00:23:40
anyone come along we're putting a girl band together okay music management and
00:23:45
yeah I went along to that audition and how did that go it went well I was
00:23:52
recalled we had to dance and then we we called to sing and then we were all sent away and then we were we were called
00:23:58
back but when we were called back I was ill and I couldn't speak let alone sing so
00:24:04
um yeah I I missed my first opportunity of being in this band
00:24:09
you missed your first opportunity yeah so I was really sick I kept getting tonsillitis and I yeah I was really
00:24:17
poorly when the recall happened and so I begged my mum to call him and just say
00:24:22
good Melanie week like I bet he should come and sing for you but they were like no we've already chosen the girls it's
00:24:28
I'm afraid you know it's to know this town and there was lots of auditions that were now so it was like oh well it
00:24:34
wasn't meant to be but then a couple of weeks after that I got called to say somebody hasn't worked out we'd like to
00:24:41
see Melanie again and then that was my chance to get in the band Christ
00:24:47
that is a pivotal phone call
00:24:55
you know I think I actually because that still wasn't the
00:25:01
five that everybody got to know you know there was I think there were three girls
00:25:07
from the the beginning of the band being put together who didn't end up being
00:25:13
part of the final lineup of the Spice Girls it's funny that when you think back even being handed that flyer you think
00:25:20
what path would I have walked potentially if that person that day hadn't given me
00:25:26
that flyer it's a really strange thought isn't it I guess the sliding doors moment isn't it but it's like yeah I
00:25:32
really because often in interviews you'll be asked oh if you didn't do this if you do and I'm like I have no clue
00:25:39
it's funny I think about it because I there was an early early point of my career where I got a phone call saying
00:25:46
um a day before saying the 16 year old kid that was meant to be speaking at this event had dropped out last minute
00:25:51
and could I get to London I had no money I end up um bunking on the Mega Bus this 16 year old kid had just sold his
00:25:57
business for 30 million so they needed like a young entrepreneur last minute found me because I was on some website 3am asked me to come and that sent me
00:26:05
off in my career it was where I got my investors from that one talk I think if they hadn't asked me to be there how
00:26:11
would my life have been different um and the weird thought which we never consider is that
00:26:17
maybe I would have been happier have you ever have you ever thought that
00:26:23
often often yeah you know I I wouldn't change my life obviously I'm so proud of
00:26:30
the things that I've achieved and I have an incredible life and I absolutely do my passion you know that's my I've just
00:26:37
had a weekend of it you know three shows over the weekend and I feel blessed but
00:26:42
with it has been some really tough times and sometimes I do I do think wow
00:26:50
I think did becoming famous ruin my life
00:26:55
did it ruin me sometimes I question that
00:27:01
it's a hard one to answer isn't it because you don't know the Alternatives so you can't yeah but I think the thing
00:27:07
is it's like you know it's always so important isn't it we're on a journey
00:27:13
what's the destination the destination is death you know we've just got to enjoy this
00:27:20
journey and I remember the early days of the Spice Girls were the best before we
00:27:27
released anything we had the most fun because it was this excitement what's going to happen you know what could it
00:27:34
be and then when it happened it was incredible but there's a lot of brushes that come along with it so everything
00:27:40
starts to change in those early years then so before you've released any music you stumbled
00:27:46
around trying to find management for a while right and then you recount stories in your book about some like [ __ ] that's
00:27:52
made some just like awful comments to you can you tell me about that that comment I was his name chick oh chick
00:27:59
yeah so he was a financial backer so when we we were first put together by a management team and we were with them
00:28:05
maybe for about a year and chick was um yeah the financial backer of these
00:28:10
original managers and he'd commented on the size of my thighs and which was
00:28:16
something that really shook me because you know I went to a performing arts college which was predominantly a
00:28:22
dancing in college and you know the body image was an issue there there was there
00:28:28
were girls with eating disorders I'd been you know I'd been witness to that in my
00:28:34
life but yeah it never affected me personally um you know and I'm a teenager put on a
00:28:40
little bit away moving away from home not really eating as well going down the
00:28:45
pub and you know so my weight fluctuated a little bit but it was never something that really bothered me it was just yeah
00:28:53
I'll cut back a little bit lose a few pounds but somebody actually commenting on the way I looked when I was going
00:29:00
into a career where so much of it is about how you look really affected me
00:29:07
did he make that comment in front of people he made that comment in front of the other girls
00:29:13
there's something about there's something about um when you're trying to fit in when
00:29:19
someone points at something which makes you different or that might make you feel like you don't fit in and from just
00:29:25
listening to your early years where fitting in and feeling worthy was so important to you for someone to then in
00:29:30
a group of people where you where you belong those that that band to say this is why you don't fit essentially with
00:29:37
that comment I can't think of anything more more hurtful for one's self-esteem especially
00:29:42
as a young person because you know think I think like I was probably 19 at that point which at the time you feel like you are
00:29:49
grown up in that college going out into the Big Wide World you're a child you know you're still so
00:29:56
young and so vulnerable well Victoria said to you that he had said comments to her about her weight as well or her
00:30:01
appearance yeah I think you know it was it was very much at that time I mean I you know I went to dance college so
00:30:09
teachers would say you need to lose weight you know what's that stomach there I mean I've spoken to dancers
00:30:14
recently about the culture of that because you know um recently there was a lot there's been a lot talked about in
00:30:19
the gymnastics world oh yeah and there was definitely a culture within
00:30:26
dance which was very cruel and heartless and shaming body shaming
00:30:32
um which is changing but you know dance teachers there are some really lovely nurturing ones out there but some of the
00:30:39
best dance teachers are horrible you know we I mean
00:30:44
carrot in the stick it's quite an old-fashioned way but
00:30:50
it worked in some ways but it's very damaging did it change your behavior that that comment from him did you
00:30:57
notice a change in yourself at all after that definitely that was the Catalyst there was a catalyst for me to it was
00:31:02
like a wake-up call it was like if I want to do this if I'm going to be a pop star and you have to remember this
00:31:08
was like the 90s as well so it was you know body image was a very different thing there you know thank God there's
00:31:14
so much more body positivity now you know but back then it was all about being stick then
00:31:20
and I thought well if I'm gonna do this I have to fit the mold and so then that
00:31:25
was it was just it was it was a gradual thing but it was like the eating and the exercising and that's when that's when
00:31:32
it began yeah from a comment like that which he probably didn't give a second thought to you know
00:31:38
isn't that crazy it's crazy we never really appreciate that one comment can have such a profound impact
00:31:45
and change someone's um the trajectory of their health or their well-being in such a significant
00:31:51
way just one comment yeah just a few words yeah you know I think it's a bit of a trigger isn't it you know so that
00:31:57
happened and I think obviously I was feeling vulnerable in it knocks your confidence but then it's
00:32:04
kind of I think it's like a little chain of events that leads you down that road right you know
00:32:09
so that maybe was the little start of it it ignited about the first Domino before yeah yeah on that Journey trying to find
00:32:16
New Management you you stumbled across Simon Cowell as well and he he must hate when you recount this story
00:32:23
because oh it's so funny because he this is the thing right everybody remembers things differently because he remembers
00:32:30
he said yes to us but we said no to him so basically we got to the point where
00:32:36
we were going to record companies we were looking for a record deal so we left the original management
00:32:41
and we had some demos demo tapes and we were going around meeting managers
00:32:47
meeting record labels and most people were very positive we got very positive
00:32:52
reactions but we remember Simon saying he wasn't interested in us
00:32:57
um yeah but he recounts it differently so that's funny isn't it because obviously then it was the 90s he was a
00:33:04
record company exactly he wasn't known to the to the wider public at this point when you're going around trying to find
00:33:10
management how are you like providing for yourselves how where's the money coming from to sustain the band and was
00:33:16
there ever a moment where you thought [ __ ] this I'm gonna no no no so when we were with our original management they
00:33:22
they did give us like a little bit of pocket money they put us up in a house I think they gave us about 60 pounds a
00:33:28
week which because we weren't paying for our accommodation at the time you know we could make ends meet
00:33:33
um but when we left them I think I went to stay with a friend back in sukup where I've been to college so I was like
00:33:39
staying in her spare room and then there was a period of time where Melanie and Jerry were homeless they were doing a
00:33:46
little bit sofa surfing yeah and Emma went home to her mum's place in Finchley and Victoria was back at air mum's place
00:33:52
up um in Hertfordshire so yeah we were and it was think this I remember we go to
00:33:59
Emma's mum's place and she'd do loads of toast for us and wrapping tin foil and that would be
00:34:04
breakfast and yeah we were just we never thought it was never an option to give up we were on this journey and we were
00:34:11
going to make it happen how long was that period when between you leaving your initial management to
00:34:18
ultimately when you found Simon Fuller and you know that kind of it began with Virgin how long was that how big was
00:34:25
that Gap it wasn't as long as a year okay with an Elio maybe about eight months or so but we we had um somebody
00:34:32
who was you know very kindly looking after us so what we've done before we left our original management we talked
00:34:38
our original management into putting on a showcase okay so we did that and then we met some writers and producers and
00:34:45
Publishers and we made some contacts and we kind of knew already we were going to leave but we just thought let's get this
00:34:51
out of them and we did that and so we pursued that and we were with Mark Fox who was head of publishing at BMG at the
00:34:58
time and he kind of took us under his wing and would take us out for dinners and he'd got us to meet people and that
00:35:04
kind of got us on our road success and then you met Simon Fuller talk to me about that and how'd that
00:35:10
change things yeah it was really interesting because we'd been it's so funny isn't it we really did take
00:35:15
matters into our own hands and we talk about auditioning managers you know we were this unknown girl band everyone was
00:35:22
telling us governments don't work but we were out there going right is this manager good enough for us
00:35:27
um so we just we just had this attitude that we've got something very special and we're not going to undersell it or
00:35:32
ourselves and which is wonderful you know even if any of us have any doubts about it we were like no this is the way
00:35:38
it is and I think that real determination single-mindedness is a really important part of succeeding it's
00:35:45
like no there's no doubt this will not fail so we went out there and met these
00:35:51
people and Mark Fox was introducing us to songwriters we've met Martin Biff who
00:35:56
he wrote wannabe and Two Become One it'd be forever and we also met absolute who
00:36:03
we wrote who do you think you are too much with those guys and they were managed by a guy called
00:36:09
Pete and he was in Simon's offices and Simon heard the music and wanted to
00:36:15
meet us so he was the first person who approached us and eventually you sign with virgin virgin virgin virgin records yeah we
00:36:22
gave everyone the run around and we got the money up and up and up and up as you could in those days and we just loved
00:36:29
virgin it was an incredible team and we just had so much fun with them they
00:36:34
really shared our vision great a r Ashley Newton you know obviously spice
00:36:40
was such a great album as his Spice World um so yeah it was like a match made in
00:36:46
heaven you you recount that moment that Simon Fuller gave you your first um 10K check I believe and this is
00:36:53
before you've released any music right so this is like is this a signing bonus so we got like um you get a advance when
00:37:01
you you know when you examsia not so much these days it's changed so much but yeah you get in advance and we hadn't
00:37:08
seen like what we would deem as properly and that was proper money I've got all
00:37:14
those zeros what did you do with it um I think you know what I did with my
00:37:19
first one no I don't you're not okay I just think I did I do know you went awesome
00:37:28
I mean I saw that check right yeah I can I remember like being like on this
00:37:34
kind of stairwell in this party give me a check ten thousand pounds
00:37:40
I went down to Oxford Street Jetty Sports and I bought the Nike Air Max that I've been like get I've had my eye
00:37:47
on for weeks I've made it and what did you do with the rest Stephen the bank
00:37:52
what did I do with the rest I think I paid for some driving lessons
00:37:57
um yeah I paid for my event and I mean pretty much when you you get in advance whether it's with the Rebecca company or
00:38:05
publishing it's your living expenses you know and you're a young artist and you've not released anything that's kind
00:38:11
of what it goes on how quickly did things move from the point of getting that check on that stairwell to
00:38:18
um wannabe the first single taking off how how quickly was that
00:38:25
gosh are you you're really testing my memory now I think
00:38:31
I want to say it was around Christmas time when we when we got the check
00:38:36
and then wannabe was released in July of 96. so maybe about six months six months
00:38:42
it's not it's not very long time is it it's not and it's from what I read the
00:38:48
wannabe didn't take a long time to record either
00:38:53
is definitely under half an hour this is we kind of disagree with it 15 minutes
00:38:59
was it 20 minutes I mean it was kind of thrown together it was was it ever going to be a song we weren't sure we were
00:39:05
just kind of being silly and Matt and both who are incredible just obviously
00:39:10
made it into something which it went to number one in 37 countries I mean I
00:39:16
don't think I even knew there was 37 countries that's crazy yeah what what does that
00:39:24
feel like so you release that single then you start getting the the murmurs
00:39:29
the noise the the world starts vibrating a little bit what is that what is that like well we had big Ideas we probably had
00:39:37
big Ideas above our station before we should have done but it helped us our
00:39:42
original manager were always like don't get too big for your boots you know you haven't done anything yet you need
00:39:48
you've got work to do we know we've got work to do but we've got something special and we are going to make this
00:39:53
happen so we were always like we felt we were very important and very special
00:40:01
and when other people started to think that too wannabe was released it was still early days but we released our
00:40:08
album in Japan because at the time there was no internet so artists would release music in different territories at
00:40:15
different times so you could kind of catch up with yourself with your promo you were able to do it I'd like to say
00:40:21
you had time to do it but hey there's only seven days in a week our schedule was insane
00:40:26
but we started in Japan and one of you went to number one why we were in Japan so we didn't really get a sense of what
00:40:34
was happening at home and I think when we flew back to the UK we were in Japan for about two weeks
00:40:39
when we when we flew back everything had changed and that was it when it was when people
00:40:45
really did start recognizing Us in the Stream yeah it all started to
00:40:51
yeah increase at that point and how did that feel at first it was so exciting it was kind of like it's almost like you
00:40:57
put in a like in a catapult you know we've been we'd be doing all this about doing all this way you know and then
00:41:03
you're gone and you're just on this act oh and it really was I I was trying to make sure I had the
00:41:10
dates right before because when I was looking at the the amount of time from that first single to the number one
00:41:17
albums and the meteoric global super stardom it feels like this much time I
00:41:23
was like I'm sure I've got the dates wrong there must be like a decade like typo somewhere because it was just a
00:41:30
couple of years it's not even a full two years right one
00:41:35
of these released in July 1997. Jeremy left the band in the spring of 98
00:41:42
when we were two shows short of our European leg of the tour so it wasn't a full two years that the
00:41:50
five were together doing the thing you know it's that's mad I don't understand that
00:41:56
right we got together in 94 that's when we all first met so together a couple of
00:42:01
years beforehand but yeah by 98 Springer 98 Jerry had gone we went on to do our
00:42:08
U.S leg of the tours of four piece we come back Melanie and Victoria had their babies so obviously everything started
00:42:15
to change by that point it was a very different chapter in the lives of this horoscope at that moment in my head the
00:42:21
Spice Girls weren't like two decades yeah maybe that's why maybe the music
00:42:28
lasted obviously but uh but when I was reading that was like two years I was like what how is that possible how is
00:42:33
two two um two albums and a movie and I will tell and yeah and all those
00:42:40
MTV music videos that were playing in my house constantly because of my sister um
00:42:46
but I had to listen to a cup the odd CD when no one was in the house but that's why podcast we can edit that out
00:42:52
um but but when you think about why you were success because there were a lot of other girl bands at that time and there
00:42:58
were even other girl bands that had a similar fundamental messages of empowerment and as you you call it girl
00:43:05
power I think you can't say that anymore I think that's a bit of a people don't like using me using the word girl but um girl power and feminism and female
00:43:12
empowerment why in hindsight do you think that you broke through
00:43:18
um and and these others who were there before you and in some situations were much better placed
00:43:24
why did you win I think the stars were in alignment whatever the magic was with that Dynamic
00:43:33
that we are so different that we are quite strong in our individuality
00:43:39
that we made the decision to address how we each felt comfortable you know girl
00:43:44
bands before us had coordinated their look or had a certain look and we
00:43:50
realized that didn't work for us we wanted to make pop music we loved pop music we love so many genres but we felt
00:43:58
like there was a space for a female band you know we kind of looked at bands like
00:44:04
take that and New Kids on the Block and there was no girl bands doing that and that's what we wanted to do and I just
00:44:11
think just all those little elements a lot of them accidental you know are nicknames which we never came up with it
00:44:18
wasn't a marketing idea it was top of the pops magazine Peter Levine who was edited there at the time just thought
00:44:24
it'd be really fun to give us some nicknames and they stuck and they became part of the brand you know and they
00:44:31
still live on to this day I mean in the US we're known mainly by our nicknames so
00:44:37
yeah like the stars like I say it feels like they were just in alignment it was meant to be we had this idea that
00:44:45
something was going to happen but I think it was raining Stars timing seems to be quite um important in
00:44:52
hindsight as well when you think about where the world was was it ready for this message was it ready for a band
00:44:58
like this um because you know if you'd been maybe 10 years earlier maybe it wouldn't have worked out or 10 years later
00:45:04
but there's it's funny the the case of timing and then even when you think back to being handed that flyer the timing of
00:45:10
that and it's quite serendipitous and you know the butterfly effect of just these
00:45:16
these things linking up and can be quite spooky yeah it really is you know you're right at the time it's
00:45:22
over the 90s it was a period of growth in the UK you know it was quite a positive time for the country we just
00:45:29
kind of come out of the grungies musically um Indy was big here and you know we
00:45:35
can't you know say oh you know oh you're welcome female empowerment yes we
00:45:41
brought that this was something that was bubbling and moving and changing and we
00:45:46
were just really fortunate that we hit it at a time when more and more people were getting on it you know
00:45:53
um and I think because you know people often talk about feminism with the Spice Girls and it's like we feel like you
00:45:59
know we were young we had a point to prove we wanted to be a girl band for girls and we wanted to
00:46:06
talk about female empowerment and how girls could do whatever they wanted to do no one was telling us we couldn't do something and it enabled us to take
00:46:14
feminism and make it more you know palatable to a younger audience you know
00:46:20
we had fans of three years of age a pop band or a music act had never had that
00:46:25
before you know and even now you know it's amazing I do these shows and I go out and I do solo stuff and I do a
00:46:31
couple of Spice Girl songs and there's so many young kids in the audience loving and real discovering the Spice
00:46:39
Girls and it's it's incredible it still captures their imagination that um that pressure though people
00:46:46
often talk about the pressure of being in a band but the pressure of being in a girl band at that time especially when
00:46:53
even you know the media were very vicious and there wasn't an awareness around the impact of words on mental
00:47:00
well-being and how that can impact people um strikes me as being an even more difficult time than today of being in
00:47:07
well we have social media now which is also an exacerbating Factor but talk to me about the the pressure of public
00:47:13
scrutiny back then on young women you're right you know the Tabloid media
00:47:21
were brutal I think things have improved not that much I mean it is quite
00:47:27
shocking now when I look back over articles from the 90s and naughties just like the wording that was used I think
00:47:32
they're just a bit more sneaky with it now you know they're still saying the same things but in a slightly different way but back then it was just brutal I
00:47:40
mean I got called we all got called like terrible horrible things
00:47:46
and as a young person I think for anyone and you're right you know the generation now have social
00:47:52
media to deal with it which I think is equally as damaging if not more so in many ways because you can't escape it
00:47:59
can you you know your phone is there I wake up first thing I do look at my phone um luckily now I have the skin of a
00:48:05
rhino so if anyone's saying anything negative about me um you know I can I can usually push out
00:48:13
but yeah back then it was I was trying to figure out because I was you know who am I these people are telling me I'm
00:48:19
this thing you know they're criticizing me um I'm not talented enough I'm not
00:48:24
pretty enough I'm stupid I'm a loud mouth and this and it's like who am I am
00:48:31
I who I want to be Am I who they tell me I am should I be who they want me to be
00:48:37
and it's so confusing and that was I think another you know we were talking
00:48:43
about these different elements that got me because I became very very ill um around 2000 and you know the the
00:48:50
eating and the exercising and from chicks words and certain things that had happened being photographed constantly
00:48:57
but being commented on constantly was a big factor in that Journey
00:49:02
you didn't mean to change when I took when I mentioned that it looked like it genuinely I could I
00:49:08
could see how that that phase of your life had impacted you just from the the change in your
00:49:16
um yeah it's [Music] I don't think anyone can ever you know
00:49:22
it's really hard you know because I'm always in this place where
00:49:28
visit I'm always in this place where there's an element of guilt attached to
00:49:34
my success and I think that's exacerbated by people going were you famous
00:49:40
you know you put yourself in that position and something I explore in the book is
00:49:46
you know people who want to be famous probably other people at least one quick
00:49:52
to do with it because you know we're we're looking for accepting and love
00:50:00
an adoration and to be that vulnerable and to put yourself in that position
00:50:05
only to be criticized is it's a bad combination and I think you know with
00:50:10
the table of media as it was back then I mean it's terrific I mean I've looked
00:50:17
again recently because you know that there's been certain reasons why I've been having to read old articles on
00:50:24
myself and I'm shocked I am I mean I don't want to jump forward
00:50:30
too far with the story but I I did suffer with a couple of Eating Disorders one of them
00:50:37
being binge eating disorder I was very depressed and I gained some weight because I've been underweight for a long
00:50:43
long time and my body was just like it was just a reaction it was like I am starved of any
00:50:49
nourishments yeah but heal me feed me and you know obviously the big change in
00:50:55
that make me gain weight and it wasn't an enormous amount of weight I think I went from the size probably about a size
00:51:02
I suppose it just sounds like a lot if you sell like a size six to a size 14
00:51:08
but then a size 14 I don't think it's even the average size of women in the UK
00:51:15
and they called me Sumo space I mean how disgusting is that
00:51:21
so whoever this person is I'm not going to say it's a guy maybe it was maybe it wasn't the editor probably was but they
00:51:28
thought it was appropriate to call a young woman who actually had been open
00:51:34
because she kind of thought she had to be about her issues and it was okay to call
00:51:40
her Sumo space how sick is that it's really [ __ ] up isn't it
00:51:45
I mean worst thing will happen to people and you know where things happen in the
00:51:50
world but in this in my world at that time when that happened it was
00:51:56
devastating gosh it's disgusting isn't it they couldn't do it now
00:52:01
they couldn't do that now but like I say they it's all a little bit reading between the lines now isn't it
00:52:08
you were so young then as well you were you know you're in your teen years but you're still a child at that age and as
00:52:15
you say learning who you are and what you mean was there a moment where you realized that so that first comment from
00:52:21
chick sends you changes your behavior was there a moment where you look back on and go
00:52:26
that was maybe this not the second Catalyst moment but my behavior took a really sharp turn there in terms of like
00:52:32
exercise and obsessing over food and fitting in yeah I think it was it was
00:52:38
more when we were in the public eye being a photograph doing lots of photo
00:52:44
shoots um yeah you know some of it is linked to a need of control isn't it because
00:52:51
things at that point felt very much out of our control even though we you know we wanted to take
00:52:58
this thing you know in our own hands and we wanted to make it happen
00:53:03
um I think because when things with the Spice Girls became Uber successful which was very quick after the release of
00:53:10
wannabe were flying all over the world you're in a bubble you know this crazy bubble and it's great you're having an
00:53:15
amazing time but you can't you can't do things on your own terms anymore but you can control what you put in your
00:53:22
mouth or you can be in the gym where people will leave you alone because I don't don't bother if she's in the gym
00:53:29
you write about how you turn into a robot what do you mean by robot
00:53:34
Okay so I think I found it the only way I could survive
00:53:40
D the experience was by switching off my feelings um I had to eat a certain way I had to
00:53:48
exercise a certain amount and I couldn't not do it so I had to switch off any of
00:53:55
those like human emotions or any of those just even listening to my own body this there was a task that had to be
00:54:01
done and I had to complete it and the robot and let's do it and that
00:54:06
was kind of my inner dialogue and you recount this um this day of risk reciting some reciting that well-being
00:54:13
on a running machine which I found very almost quite unnerving and quite strange looking in the mirror and telling
00:54:19
yourself that you're a robot yeah yeah that actually happened you were looking I can
00:54:27
remember kind of in the middle of a Road Travelers and yeah that was that was my
00:54:32
way of coping because like shut down shut off just like just this body is
00:54:38
just a piece of Machinery that will do what it has to do and there was no there was no choice
00:54:45
that was the thing there was no choice that was the way it had to be and it wasn't until I had which by you know I I
00:54:52
imagine was a break in 2000 when I just you know I hit that bottom and and
00:54:58
that's when I kind of fell apart because the robot wasn't working anymore
00:55:03
have you when you think back of that young girl have you got how do you feel about her
00:55:08
as an as an as an you know much more mature person now how did you feel about that young girl that was going through
00:55:15
that family stops before I feel like you know it was
00:55:22
the most incredible time of my life and the hardest
00:55:28
and as much as I enjoyed it it was jobless you know because I had a secret
00:55:35
and I was dealing with what I had to deal with I'm living my dream at the same time it
00:55:42
was it's a it's a head [ __ ] is what it is because I wouldn't change anything
00:55:47
I changed that I changed that I became the victim of an eating disorder in
00:55:52
exercising obsessively I wish that hadn't happened to me so I could have fully enjoyed the wonderful things that
00:55:59
happened to me 100 you know life isn't perfect there's always issues there's always things we
00:56:05
have to overcome but it was [ __ ] dramatic in
00:56:10
how it went down what would you say to her if you could speak to her I say sorry
00:56:15
I do I feel so sorry but I did that to him
00:56:21
yeah I think I've been angry as well I think I've ain't anger at other people but I think as an adult you have to take
00:56:28
responsibility for your actions um you know I don't understand bitterly
00:56:34
Twisted but don't you know there were people oh you know the Tabloid media I don't want a victim
00:56:41
learn about the tablet media but you know they probably need to be bitched and learned about because they've been
00:56:46
disgraced um but yeah I just I I feel sorry
00:56:52
I feel regretful well what would you say sorry to her for if I pointed through that I think her
00:57:00
through that for and it feels like I kind of I have a lot of guilt attached
00:57:06
to what I was representing but what was
00:57:12
really going on behind closed doors and you know what I'm such an honest person I can't I can't lie I'm so bad at lying
00:57:19
and I I feel so dishonest if I'm not burying myself to people but I was
00:57:24
living life and that's probably the hardest part of it that um
00:57:30
that secret the secret you're referring to is the eating disorder and the obsessive exercising right the secret
00:57:36
you were keeping when you say um eating disorder are you referring to the binge eating disorder that was did that come
00:57:41
after that was later yeah okay so you know the weird thing is actually as
00:57:46
you as you put it like that it's like I was in denial
00:57:52
you know because there is a little voice that goes you can't carry around like this but
00:57:57
then the other voice the bigger voice goes you haven't got a choice and the first season of disorder I I
00:58:04
started to um just to eat less small potions and then I started to eliminate food groups
00:58:12
um to a point because I was terrified of that and then I was terrified of cops and then I wouldn't eat a banana because
00:58:17
it's got too much sugar in it I mean I do not even know how I survived and I
00:58:22
think often now I get so exhausted I think it's probably through years of being malnourished
00:58:30
um I lived on fruit and vegetables for about two years and I was underweight my period stopped
00:58:37
you know I kind of I've always wanted to be a mum but I had no choice but to live this
00:58:43
life I was living and I was jeopardizing the chance of being a mum I mean how crazy is that
00:58:50
just this compulsion and then it all comes to a head in 2000
00:58:55
when um
00:59:05
you hate their bodies you know we oh I hate this oh you should get asked in
00:59:10
interviews but you know what what's your favorite what would you call them like your favorite attribute or whatever you
00:59:16
know what what do you what do you like least about yourself you know what [Music] [ __ ] questions why would you why
00:59:23
would you ever say never be negative in an interview right right never pull people towards your vulnerability I mean
00:59:30
I hate my my short stubby legs you know what I mean just really focus on them um
00:59:35
but yeah I I hated myself I was never good enough nothing's good enough women
00:59:41
do this all the time we pull ourselves apart you know I'm not funny enough I'm not clever enough I'm not pretty and if
00:59:46
I'm not sexy enough all these things this body is amazing and I spent all of
00:59:53
those years just hating it because it wasn't what I wanted it to be but you
00:59:58
are not your body you know I was talking to my family this weekend I I lost an older sibling a few
01:00:04
years ago and we were talking about when people pass and you know and suddenly he died of
01:00:12
cancer and we know in the last ages people with cancer it's it's awful to see them in that way but I don't
01:00:18
remember him in that way I remember the essence of him I remember how funny he
01:00:23
was and how naughty he was and and it's not I don't I don't remember anything physical you know and it's just we just
01:00:29
need to get away from this physical being what defines us [ __ ] off it's not what it defines us we're so much more than
01:00:36
that and um I've completely forgotten what the question was but I just got caught up no no so it's so powerful and
01:00:44
um it was linked to it all all of that sort of suppression and a self-abandonment coming to a head in
01:00:50
2020 2000 yeah yeah so exactly and I I'd
01:00:55
spent is like trying to make myself smaller you know fit into the form that
01:01:01
I should be to be doing the thing that I'm doing and it was killing me and I know this is why I started talking about
01:01:08
my body because I'm so grateful to my body because it took over and it's and it
01:01:14
said to me we can't do this anymore you're not doing this anymore we are taking the control away from you and it
01:01:21
was hard because from being very restrictive with my eating and being anorexic I started
01:01:29
binge eating because my body it couldn't help anymore it wasn't getting enough fuel and I was
01:01:35
depressed I didn't know I was depressed I had no I'd never even crossed my mind
01:01:41
that I had depression I just knew I'd lost control over my eating and freaked
01:01:46
me out because it was all about the way I looked you know it was it was vanity I
01:01:51
was like [ __ ] I'm eating I'm eating loads and you know I feel very grateful I was never bulimic I tried I couldn't
01:01:58
make myself sick and I'm so grateful for that because I know it's a really difficult illness to recover from
01:02:06
so I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger because I was eating more and more and more um and then that was it was the vanity
01:02:12
that took me to the doctors as well as being really [ __ ] scared because I didn't know what was going on and I was
01:02:18
struggling to get out of bed and that was when I was diagnosed with depression and that was my first step on the road
01:02:24
to recovery you go to that doctor who ultimately diagnoses you with depression
01:02:30
can you remember that day vividly I do I really do I remember sitting up to him his desk
01:02:36
and I think I said everything out loud for the first time but my eating about crying and not being able to do that I
01:02:43
mean I didn't have the words I didn't know what anxiety was I didn't know what Depression was so what did you say to
01:02:49
him just because I want to get a color of what the symptoms were that you hadn't yourself pinpointed as well I was
01:02:55
I was tired all the time I couldn't control my eating I mean I was I I
01:03:00
terrified myself because sometimes I'd catch myself in mid-bench it was so it was such a compulsive thing I'd like
01:03:07
yeah I'll just be in the middle of just eating and I'd be like you know and anyone and then suddenly I
01:03:13
know lots of people have these issues it's like a cycle because you do it and
01:03:18
then you hate yourself so you do it again and then you just it just keeps uh you know getting worse and
01:03:25
worse and to the point where I had to go to the doctor but I felt like I was losing my mind I felt like I was
01:03:30
actually going mad and yeah and I didn't have the right words and I know they are not the right words that we use today
01:03:36
but those were the words I had um yeah and he said
01:03:42
but first of all we have to to do with your depression I was like this weight was just lifted
01:03:48
from my shoulders because I was like oh my God it's got a name it's something that can be treated it's something you can recover from and that was the
01:03:56
beginning of a very very long journey very very long joke
01:04:03
I think I'm still on that Journey To be honest I don't think I think depression is always there it's
01:04:10
always waiting in the wings to looming and well it is for me anyway
01:04:16
um but I'm quite good at just keeping her Bay you learn the tricks and the tools
01:04:22
for keeping it back [Music] you describe them I believe the
01:04:28
um the fear of that looming um depression or you know I guess the
01:04:34
fear of going back to formal ways or finding yourself in that situation has has been quite a scary thing is it a
01:04:40
scary thing something you're you're scared of I don't want to Mis characterize your words there but
01:04:46
um is it something that sits at the back of your mind in terms of you know that you fear there might be there it's like
01:04:53
a catalyst there could be one thing that could yeah the thing I fear the most is
01:04:59
depression because you know I've I've always felt like
01:05:04
there's a fire in my belly and even you know mostly at my lowest of points
01:05:12
I can go this will pass we can do this
01:05:17
but there are times within my depression where I have doubted that
01:05:22
and yeah
01:05:37
my biggest fear is it's that you know really overwhelming depression
01:05:43
where you doubt if you can make it through Beyond it
01:05:48
you had you had those moments post mainly where you didn't think you'd be there was doubt whether you'd be able to
01:05:54
make it through a moment is this post leaving the Spice Girls predominantly or was their moments throughout the experience where it's never we've never
01:06:01
officially split up is this bicycle oh really yeah we took that decision because
01:06:07
there was so much press you know interest in us at the
01:06:13
time so you know I was really really struggling we were working on forever which is the third album as a full piece
01:06:19
without Jerry and I'd worked on my solo records and I was having a really really
01:06:25
hard time and it was too much I found the environment too much and I think the
01:06:31
girls knew me too well you know I was I was dealing with these demons these inner demons and they they could just
01:06:38
read me like a book and I just didn't want to be in their company because I had to do with it myself you know so I I
01:06:44
did want to leave the band but we we took the decision to never officially split up because we because
01:06:50
we didn't want the Press intrusion we were terrified of because we know I mean I slept at once on a TV show I did a
01:06:56
show with Frank Skinner and I used past tense I said when I was a Spice Girl or whatever the wording I used was
01:07:03
and the Press jumped on it and there was camera Crews outside my house creating and they chased me down the road and
01:07:09
yeah and it was just like we couldn't none of us could face
01:07:14
and the you know the beauty of that is now we kind of feel like at the time we needed separation you know we'd be in
01:07:22
like this our lives have been so intertwined that we needed that space but now we've had time to do that and
01:07:28
grow and become individual individuals and mums and and have these Separate Lives we can come back together and we
01:07:36
we really enjoy each other and respect each other so it'd be quite like that we've never
01:07:41
split up you know what I mean we've always we'll always be faster when people say formers but I'm not a former Spice Girl I am a Spice Girl and we will
01:07:49
always always even Victoria when she didn't go downstairs to turn 19 she's still a very
01:07:55
very important part of that show 2019 you're you're you know
01:08:01
your account in your book about how coming back together was actually a really pleasant experience and it taught you a lot about your previous time
01:08:08
together in the Spice Girls but let's start with the point about Victoria then a lot of lot was written about that obviously when press do interviews
01:08:13
they're trying to twist your words and find something wow how can we turn them against each other like that's what that's the game right
01:08:20
um so how did you all feel when you know you knew that Victory wasn't coming back to the group and you were going to be
01:08:26
doing it as a full yeah there was a few feelings about that because obviously we
01:08:32
were gutted but you would be yeah totally one of their and we were scared because we'd go [ __ ] are people going to
01:08:39
want us it's a full piece um you know in a different configuration and the thing is you know
01:08:45
let's not you know well let's be honest here Victoria is a huge International icon you know she has gone on to be
01:08:53
something in her own right you know in the Fashion World in the world of celebrity she's much bigger than the
01:09:00
others of us individually um I don't think anything's as big as the Spice Girls you know we all feel that but without her it's like people
01:09:08
gonna take us seriously um so yeah so there was there was different feelings around it the the
01:09:14
wonderful thing about it when she was very supportive and it was really important for us to make sure she was
01:09:20
happy so she was involved creatively you know we wanted us to sign everything off we wanted her to know exactly what we
01:09:26
were going to do and it was such an incredible experience I it felt like she was part of it anyway
01:09:31
why didn't you I didn't I missed the story at that time but why didn't she want to be what was her public statement
01:09:37
what was the reason public statement is because of family and commitment okay which is completely you know
01:09:43
understandable um but I think you know on a more personal level and I think this has been
01:09:49
said I don't think she'd mind me saying when we did the Olympics in 2012 yeah
01:09:54
she had a really hard time it was she was petrified I mean we were all bloody petrified but to the point where it's
01:10:01
worth it yeah yeah yeah but I think it was it so you know it was you had a lot
01:10:06
of anxiety and on that performance that she was like you know what girls I'm putting my dancing shoes up
01:10:12
um away so yeah so we totally got you know we respected her decision
01:10:17
um but yeah but we were still sad about it but you know what we went on to have
01:10:23
the most successful tour we've ever done and you know with her blessing sadly
01:10:28
without her but we did it and it was incredible and it really is truly some of my happiest Spice Girls memories one
01:10:35
of the things that I wish I'd asked Liam Payne when I spoke to him about One Direction and The the group dynamic and
01:10:40
then what happens when the group are no longer making music at the time I don't want to say split up because that
01:10:46
is a bit loaded but when they're no longer together is um what happens in the outside world in the
01:10:53
media is people then start comparing the like the post band successes and I think
01:10:59
this can be very very toxic because you're then being compared against in the case of like One Direction these
01:11:04
four five other four other individuals you'll then sort of measured your life then becomes measured against who did
01:11:11
the best after it was measured during as you talk about in magazines where they said who is the hottest and who is this
01:11:17
yeah exactly um but then post you've got you know as it relates to One Direction you've got Harry Styles who is just you
01:11:25
know Untouchable and I and I wonder like no matter how
01:11:30
how amazing the objective success is of like another member are they they're always compared to this person how true
01:11:37
is that in your case um yeah it's true it's so hard it's so
01:11:43
hard to go on and become a solo artist because you like this is what like
01:11:48
really drives me around about the media right they tell you things you already know
01:11:54
it's like you know interested in you they just want the Spice Girls I know
01:12:00
um but no I mean that isn't totally true but yeah yeah you're right it's really really hard because you get compared so
01:12:06
much within the band and then post the band but it's like you know you have you have to have this logical brain don't
01:12:13
you where you go how do we measure success you know for
01:12:18
me the hours of my life I am so happy I'm so successful and there are all this
01:12:23
they need a bit of work but I think as a fully grown adult you have to go stop
01:12:29
comparing yourself you know other people might want to do it but you can't do it we all do it we all look on Instagram
01:12:35
we've got our life's amazing [ __ ] no one's life is amazing you know there's a thing going on so I I
01:12:43
think yeah it's just we go off don't be a little tangent sometimes but it's just
01:12:48
to just come back home and yeah concentrate on the important things when you when you went on the reunion tour
01:12:54
what did you learn about your former experience from that tour
01:12:59
Ireland it was a shame that we couldn't fully appreciate it at the time because
01:13:07
and you're never going to change history and you're never going to change things moving forward because it's so chaotic I knew at the time that
01:13:16
you'll just be a little bit survival mode you know you just kind of equates going through the motions you know I
01:13:21
meet younger artists now like I've been lucky enough to meet Billy Alice a few times I
01:13:26
relate to her so much I think I saw her perform at Shepherd's Bush Empire and
01:13:32
she was already way too big to be playing that incredible venue and all
01:13:37
these predominantly teenage girls were screaming for her screaming at hair and
01:13:42
singing her songs and it just made me go back to the Spice Girls shows I know she's very different as an artist but I
01:13:49
just kind of felt this kinship with her and so at times I just look at her and I kind of feel like I I know what she's
01:13:54
feeling and what she's going through so whenever I have the opportunity to see her I just kind of have this little connect with
01:14:02
him she was like why does that make you emotional because this incredible thing that
01:14:08
happens to you and it's so hard to appreciate it because it's it's so intense you know
01:14:15
because that experience was so tumultuous for you because there were so many difficulties as you approached the
01:14:21
reunion was their fear of you know the former issues as well as the good times
01:14:27
but also the bad times coming with that always whenever us girls get together there's little triggers you know and I'm
01:14:34
scared but I have to face them because you know I've learned to experience if the other things I've gone on to do with
01:14:39
the girls we reunited in 2007 Olympics 2019
01:14:45
face the fear and actually beautiful things happen so yeah and you know we're
01:14:50
much more mindful of each other now as well because you know everyone had their [ __ ] to deal with you know it wasn't pain selling for anyone
01:14:57
was that too much of the reason you were inspired to write your book yeah it totally was I mean you know
01:15:03
sometimes I still question it I'm still questioning it as this week
01:15:08
I I just felt I started to feel like my soul is incredible you know I I'm
01:15:15
just I'm just a girl I'm a noble girl from the north west working-class background and I have a my dreams and I
01:15:23
go on to work in this industry work as an international artist I mean it blows
01:15:28
my mind when I think about what I've achieved what I've continued to go on to do and and I want to inspire people and
01:15:36
I've gosh I've had hard times you know I've had times when I thought I don't
01:15:41
know if I can carry on I don't know if I can carry on in this industry I don't know if I can carry on in this life
01:15:47
good afternoon and and I just really hope that people can read this book and
01:15:52
have a laugh you know there's been some funny bits there's some great memories but be inspired and also find some hope
01:15:59
within it because you know I have I I personally for me feel like I've
01:16:05
been at Buck bottom at a time but I've worked my way up back
01:16:11
up to like feeling okay I'm feeling great sometimes so yeah I know I know people lots of
01:16:18
people struggle with some of their issues that I've had to deal with what stops you from writing this book
01:16:23
sooner a bit scared a bit scared to go back to
01:16:29
those times I knew it was going to be hard it was actually harder than
01:16:34
um really yeah and recording the audio book which is something I definitely
01:16:40
wanted to do that's a lot it's a lot because I think to write those words is one thing but
01:16:47
then to speak them is something else um you can be interviewed and talk about
01:16:52
these situations but kind of go through it chronologically is is really really draining yeah you've just been right um
01:17:00
reading the audiobook out in the studio you sit there alone in these um audiobook recordings in a small room is
01:17:06
that as a same experience and you read through this this book that you've just written
01:17:12
um what was the hardest part for you to read I'm only halfway through okay I haven't
01:17:18
even got to the really tough but yeah um but you know what's weird I wonder if
01:17:24
you would find this too sometimes it's the things you don't expect to get yeah get yeah I got really upset the other
01:17:31
day when I started reading apart I I can't even remember which bit it was but it really surprised me because I know
01:17:38
there's like chapter 14 is it like ingrained in my brain chapter 14 is when I talk about my eating disorders and and
01:17:45
depression and and the Really lowest point um of my life
01:17:50
I know that's going to be hard to read I've not got there yet um but yeah some of the other points have been
01:17:58
quite emotional and is that is that part hard to read and recount now because because of those feelings you described
01:18:04
earlier where you have the sadness for that young version of yourself and you you also said anger is that why it's
01:18:11
hard to even read it out now I'm curious to see how I'm gonna do
01:18:18
because I think I've built up like this resilience to it as well because I I've
01:18:24
spoken quite openly in the media about depression and eating disorders and I
01:18:29
actually started talking about it probably before I was ready because at the time I I felt like you
01:18:36
know being the Spice Girl it felt like it was your duty that our lives were in
01:18:42
the public domain and you know it was such a weird time because there were so many things going on you know there was so much exposed
01:18:48
about myself and other people in in the entertainment industry
01:18:54
um because of phone hacking you know there were so many secrets and things that probably would never have made the
01:18:59
papers but you know they were listening to people's messages we know that this is a fact
01:19:05
so yeah there was this I felt like I had to spill my guts and I was still very
01:19:10
vulnerable and I feel very ill you know I wasn't anywhere near on the road to recovery you know it was
01:19:17
just the very beginning for me so I've had to build up the Earth this wall around me so I I wonder whether I
01:19:24
can speak about that now and it not affect me emotionally I'm curious
01:19:31
is that all a good thing I think it's a necessary thing you know
01:19:37
yeah I think some of the other points in the book you know are talking about my childhood and my parents and
01:19:43
and they're quite new things I'm not really discussed them openly before um so they're quite hard and also going
01:19:49
to affect other people that's what's been hard about this book it's not just about me that's like Fame right Fame
01:19:56
just doesn't happen to you does it it comes to everybody around you and they do masquer it so and then the girl kicks
01:20:04
in again there's a lot of guilt attached to fame I think I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast for many years
01:20:11
people have been asking for a coffee flavored Hill and quite recently he'll
01:20:17
release the iced coffee caramel flavor of their um ready to drink Hills and I've just
01:20:22
become hooked on it over the last couple of weeks I've been on a really interesting Journey with huel which I've described and talked about a little bit
01:20:28
on this podcast I started with the berry ready to drinks then I moved over to the protein salted caramel because it's 100
01:20:34
calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein you need and now I'm balanced between
01:20:41
them both I drink mostly the banana flavor ready to drink I've got really into the iced coffee caramel flavor of
01:20:47
heels ready to drink and now I'm drinking that as well as the protein make sure you try the new ready to drink
01:20:53
flavors that the caramel flavor is amazing the new banana flavor as well is amazing and obviously as I said the iced
01:21:00
coffee caramel flavor has been a real Smash Hit so check it out let me know what you think on social media I see all
01:21:05
of your tags and Instagram posts and tweets about Hill where is your line in terms of sharing stuff this is something
01:21:13
that I always think about um obviously I have a podcast so I talk a lot about my childhood and all the
01:21:18
things that happened and I've always wondered you know there's being transparent and honest because it will help others that have gone through that
01:21:24
experience and that's really important that's how we all learn you saying one thing can quite literally save lives but
01:21:30
where is your personal line in terms of because you kind of alluded to it there where there's things where you just
01:21:36
can't maybe it's not the right time or I think you know what's really important with this book is it's my story and it's
01:21:44
in my words and it's my perspective and I think the line for me is you know it's
01:21:49
not my place to tell other people's stories and you know to the point of hurting
01:21:56
other people that that's I can't I I couldn't live with myself
01:22:02
um but I know sometimes we hurt people unintentionally you know so that's probably my fear around the book coming
01:22:08
out now um it's not my intention to hurt anybody I've tried to be very careful
01:22:14
um but obviously like your parents reading how you feel about things you know that's that's gonna hurt
01:22:20
one of the things as well that fascinated me was um your relationship with with money you know um and
01:22:28
this this suggestion that you had almost guilt for your success
01:22:35
a few times on this on this um podcast and it always seems to come from people that have a working class background
01:22:42
can you tell me about that in your from your perspective I think for me it's
01:22:47
it's I
01:22:53
oh you know really hard whatever you know world's day working it can be
01:22:58
manual labor it can be you know I mean my dad God bless him he's in his 70s
01:23:03
he's still traveling around the world like a young man and doing this crazy job and doing super long hours
01:23:10
and you know that my dad loves his job but it's you know it's a necessity to work that hard to put food on the table
01:23:17
to pay the bills right I my my work can be hard it can be
01:23:23
grueling but I go on stage and I sing and it's my passion and I'm very lucky
01:23:29
to do it and sometimes I could maybe earn in a day what people in my family might earn in a year you know and and so
01:23:37
there's guilt attached to that when I'm when you think about the the thing that made you successful the first time
01:23:42
around you you talk about it a lot that and I talk about it as well that insecurities were one of my biggest drivers they were this you know you're
01:23:48
trying to fill some kind of void and you end up it ends up resulting in perfectionism and overworking and all
01:23:54
those things how do you control that sort of those inner insecurities that
01:24:01
I could probably ask this question in a different way those things that drove you then yeah which ultimately are quite
01:24:06
unhealthy and toxic and and creating a lack of balance in one's life how do you
01:24:11
stop those things driving you now how do you stop being toxic driven
01:24:17
you know what I think partly age does that for you because you're so exhausted right yeah we've got the energy you're
01:24:24
right it could be that you know I I think the thing is you know we live and learn don't we and I'm a mum now so I
01:24:31
have a different set of priorities I love my work sometimes I get the balance completely wrong you know I'm with the
01:24:38
book and everything my workload is huge right now this is school holidays you know I'm not around enough for my
01:24:44
daughter so eating me up inside but you know I I will find the time and we've
01:24:50
got holiday funding and I I think it's just kind of learning from past mistakes that you know be driven but not to the
01:24:58
point where it's detrimental the biggest mistake I made is a real person person whereas I believed other people knew
01:25:03
better than I did no one knows better than you about you just listen
01:25:09
like I spent so much time this weekend with like really young people in front of me and and I just look at them and I
01:25:15
just think just don't lose the essence of you you know because it because I think when you're a kid I mean obviously people
01:25:21
have different circumstances but this essence of you has all the answers it's all you need you know and then life
01:25:28
comes in and just like makes it all a bit out of balance so I just like really encourage young people
01:25:34
to just really you know trust their instincts I'm really I've been really I've been thinking a lot about that
01:25:39
lately I've been thinking because when I go up on stage and I try and give people advice you know sometimes people will
01:25:45
often sometimes over complicate the answer but as I've like looked back at my own life and what I'm hearing from
01:25:51
you as well is that I I knew the answer the whole time but there was a narrative that persuaded me to ignore it so
01:25:57
sometimes that can be your your immigrant parents telling you to go and become a doctor or a lawyer when you
01:26:03
really want to just dance and so you you kind of place their narrative over the top of your own feeling and so and then
01:26:09
the other one can sometimes be social media which tells you that you should be an ex or a y or a z but inside of you I
01:26:15
think it's really liberating to consider that you might already have all the answers if you just listened
01:26:21
and tuned out these other voices super easier said than done almost
01:26:27
impossible yeah and I think the fingers as well it's like because you think it can't be that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
01:26:32
yeah maybe maybe especially if the answer is
01:26:38
happiness if it is material success then maybe you should go and be a doctor but
01:26:43
if it is happiness which I think is the answer in in the long term if you don't want to avoid a midlife crisis when you're in your doctor's suit at 14 you
01:26:50
go what the [ __ ] am I doing here whatever maybe that is the approach to take but yeah that's what I'm saying
01:26:56
life is a series of chapters right so what's right at one point
01:27:02
might change so I think that's you know that is the thing as well it's like okay a decision
01:27:07
might be made and you're following a path and then at some point you're like you know what this isn't working for me anymore so you can change
01:27:14
I think that's I think that's really powerful to know I mean it's [ __ ] scary and not everybody has the luxury
01:27:20
of just going okay I want to change right okay I'm gonna move back because I'm going to gym no move country whatever but I think what's powerful is
01:27:27
actually you have the power you just got to find the way to do it yeah yeah the
01:27:33
practical way to I think that's the most important thing um one of the other things I wanted to
01:27:39
ask you about is when I reflect on my own early upbringing with my parents and and the model of love that they taught
01:27:44
me not all great what impact did the model of relationships and separation of your
01:27:51
parents have on your own model of of a relationship and love if any I think the
01:27:56
biggest impact that moment relationship and breakdown of their relationship and my childhood is
01:28:04
telling me is that I yearn for a family I yearn for that security
01:28:12
um and I I have a little girl I'm not with her dad and that was really difficult because I didn't want for my
01:28:20
little girl what I've done to me um so yeah I I think I'm always I'm
01:28:26
always looking for that that environment that I don't feel like I've ever really had
01:28:31
we have got one last question for you so the last guest asks a question for the next guest but they don't know who
01:28:38
they're asking the question to so they write a question in the book I don't see it on my mother's life I don't
01:28:43
see it until I open the book um that was the last question okay here we
01:28:48
go interesting
01:28:59
hmm [Laughter]
01:29:06
this is interesting because it's a question we've we've been asked once um
01:29:11
before so it's interesting that it's come up twice um what is a pain
01:29:16
that you enjoy having ah ah okay this
01:29:22
this um I've had a little emotional turmoil recently
01:29:27
and I was in the gym and I was stretching to the point where it hurts
01:29:33
but it felt good and I think sometimes and this is a little bit self-harming I think like
01:29:39
physical pain sometimes will alleviate like you know when I'm exercising to the point of it hurting can help with my
01:29:46
emotional pain you know exercise is a really interesting thing because you know obviously I have a
01:29:53
difficult relationship with it in a sense because I did used to exercise obsessively which I don't anymore but I
01:30:00
do exercise a lot and I do it for my head more so than my body at
01:30:06
times you know it's really really important to me but I can feel so low
01:30:11
and so tired and so lethargic and I can go to the gym and I'm a changed person
01:30:17
you know you know it's it's like a it's a miracle drug right whether it's the
01:30:22
endorphins the serotonin that's produced whatever happens it's like when people say to me oh you know how do you
01:30:28
encourage people to do exercise and it's like listen just go no pressure say I'll do
01:30:34
10 15 minutes and a better you there for an hour agree
01:30:40
that is when I was first when that first ques when that question first came into this book my immediate response was
01:30:46
exercise and I've never really thought I I was always curious as to whether there was an element of like escapism there as
01:30:52
well and I I'm always conscious about escaping issues or um and then when you refrained it when
01:30:58
you described it then as you're going through an emotional pain and the pain of the exercise almost helps to relieve
01:31:04
that quite a curious thing because I understand the endorphins and all the chemicals and stuff but the pain itself
01:31:10
being a medicine is an interesting concept
01:31:17
yeah it's like that thing is running away you know if you're running no one can catch you you're running you're
01:31:23
running right but it also makes you great present you know when you are running you are present and I've
01:31:28
actually done a lot of problem solving when I've been running had some little epiphanies as well so
01:31:33
it's I think exercises you know we were built to move let's do it
01:31:40
Melanie thank you so much thank you so much thank you so much and your book is
01:31:46
um truly important I think that's the best the best way to describe it because because the depth of your honesty and
01:31:53
the uniqueness of your experience offers means that it offers so much to so many people and even someone that obviously I
01:31:58
mean there's probably not there's probably almost no one on planet Earth that can relate to the experience itself but the lessons that are within your
01:32:05
book and the lessons that you've managed to pull out of those experiences are lessons that we can all use to change
01:32:11
our life and I said to you before we started recording that I usually don't make that many notes and I just I made
01:32:17
way too many and it's really because I had so I gained so much from reading it about you know even my own life having
01:32:23
not walked in your shoes that um really helped me in so many ways and I know that everyone listening to it is going
01:32:30
to gain so much from it but I also really have to specifically thank you for your honesty around the eating disorders and your depression because
01:32:37
that will quite literally save people's lives and you may never see yeah you may never you know get to hear directly from
01:32:42
those people but I assure you of that it's it definitely definitely will so well I thank you so much for saying that
01:32:49
because I've been honest in the interview to say that I still fear releasing this book but you know what if
01:32:56
it if that is the case and to hear that from you then I feel good I feel good
01:33:02
about it I'm getting it out there thank you
01:33:07
I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast crafted are a
01:33:12
brand that sell really meaningful affordable men's jewelry and I've been a
01:33:17
crafted customer I think for about three years now and all of the pieces that crafted have created have deeper meaning
01:33:24
the piece of jewelry I wear the most I want to introduce you to the pieces and why I wear them is this sand timer
01:33:29
unsurprisingly and the thing for me about sand timer is it's probably the most clear reminder that our time here
01:33:35
on Earth is finite and when you live in such a way where you can literally see your time pouring away and you realize
01:33:40
that it is scarce and that we're not all here forever you start to make better decisions you stop worrying about
01:33:46
pettiness and trivialities that consume Our Lives I always have this crafted sand timer around my neck as a reminder
01:33:52
of that and this is why I wanted crafted to sponsor this podcast because I can use their meaningful jewelry every
01:33:59
episode to deliver a meaningful message [Music]
01:34:05
foreign [Music]
01:34:15
[Music]
