00:00:00
You are actively rewiring your brain for
00:00:02
the worst by engaging with social media,
00:00:04
high volume, quick videos.
00:00:06
>> And the social media executives don't
00:00:07
let their kids use this stuff because
00:00:09
they designed it to be addictive and
00:00:11
they know that millions and millions of
00:00:12
kids have been cyberbullied, sexed. Many
00:00:15
have committed suicide. So, I'm getting
00:00:17
angry.
00:00:17
>> And then from the medical perspective,
00:00:19
it's rewiring your body, increasing your
00:00:21
risk of heart disease and PTSD.
00:00:23
>> We've moved too far into the virtual
00:00:25
world and the results are catastrophic.
00:00:27
People are spending roughly about 6 and
00:00:29
a half hours a day on their phones. What
00:00:31
do we do about this?
00:00:32
>> Well, here's the amazing thing. We
00:00:34
actually can control our fate. So, we
00:00:36
are joined by a social psychologist and
00:00:38
a Harvard physician
00:00:40
>> to dive into the technology addiction
00:00:41
and brain rot crisis billions are facing
00:00:44
worldwide
00:00:44
>> and how we can counter its devastating
00:00:46
mental health effects. You have to
00:00:49
reclaim your attention because without
00:00:51
the ability to pay attention for several
00:00:52
minutes at a time, we're seeing the
00:00:54
destruction of human potential, the
00:00:56
human relationships, the connection.
00:00:58
>> But there's all these small tweaks that
00:00:59
you can do to override that primal urge
00:01:01
to scroll. For example, 91% of people
00:01:04
had an improvement in attention,
00:01:05
well-being, and mental health. After
00:01:07
just 2 weeks of continuing to use your
00:01:09
device, but not having internet access.
00:01:11
Next, keep your phone out of your arms
00:01:14
reach because the sheer potential for
00:01:15
distraction has actually been shown to
00:01:17
change your prefrontal cortex, which is
00:01:19
called brain drain.
00:01:20
>> So, yes, we should exert more
00:01:21
self-control, but we're being pushed in
00:01:23
addictive apps and it's messing us all
00:01:25
up. That's not our fault.
00:01:26
>> Would you advise people to delete these
00:01:28
short form videos?
00:01:29
>> Oh my god, yes, that would the most
00:01:30
important thing you can do for your
00:01:31
intelligence and for humanity. But if I
00:01:33
was going to offer some specific advice,
00:01:35
here are the three things that I do with
00:01:37
my students to reclaim retention. And
00:01:39
then to add to that, I have the 3se
00:01:40
secondond brain reset. So, first
00:01:43
>> I wanted to ask you guys what you
00:01:45
thought of this.
00:01:46
>> Hey, you're back.
00:01:47
>> This terrifies me.
00:01:48
>> We've got to stop this now.
00:01:54
>> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.
00:01:56
We're approaching a significant
00:01:57
subscriber milestone on this show, and
00:01:59
roughly 69% of you that listen and love
00:02:02
this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:02:04
whatever reason. If there was ever a
00:02:05
time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:02:07
ever done anything for you, given you
00:02:09
value in any way, it is simply hitting
00:02:11
that subscribe button. And it means so
00:02:13
much to myself, but also to my team, cuz
00:02:14
when we hit these milestones, we go away
00:02:16
as a team and celebrate. And it's the
00:02:17
thing, the simple, free, easy thing you
00:02:19
can do to help make this show a little
00:02:20
bit better every single week. So, that's
00:02:23
a favor I would ask you. And, um, if you
00:02:25
do hit the subscribe button, I won't let
00:02:27
you down. And we'll continue to find
00:02:29
small ways to make this whole production
00:02:30
better. Thank you so much for being part
00:02:33
of this journey. Means the world. And uh
00:02:35
yeah, let's do this.
00:02:39
Jonathan editing.
00:02:42
Jonathan, I've heard you say that the
00:02:43
destruction of attention is the largest
00:02:45
threat to humanity that's happening
00:02:47
around the world. And I've also heard
00:02:49
you say that short form videos are the
00:02:51
worst of the worst because they're
00:02:53
shattering attention spans. The reason
00:02:55
why I wanted to have this conversation
00:02:57
today is somewhat personal. And in fact,
00:03:00
all of the conversations have in the
00:03:01
driver are somewhat personal to some
00:03:03
degree. um they're inspired by some
00:03:05
unanswered question I have in my head
00:03:07
and also some observation I have in my
00:03:09
life and the observation I've had is
00:03:11
that short form videos in particular are
00:03:15
making my life worse and actually I've
00:03:17
got to say the catalyst moment really
00:03:20
where I thought you know I need to get
00:03:21
you exceptional people together to have
00:03:23
this conversation was I thought this I
00:03:25
then looked at my screen time and saw a
00:03:27
huge change I felt so much worse because
00:03:29
all these social platforms have short
00:03:31
form video now and then I actually heard
00:03:32
Elon Musk who you know has a social
00:03:35
media platform that does short form
00:03:37
video say that he thinks it's one of the
00:03:38
worst inventions for humanity.
00:03:41
>> Jonathan, why did you say what you said
00:03:42
about short form video and this
00:03:45
corruption of attention?
00:03:46
>> Yeah, because I wrote a whole book
00:03:48
called The Anxious Generation focusing
00:03:50
on teen mental health. That was the
00:03:52
mystery that popped up in the mid200s.
00:03:54
Why are people born after 1995 so much
00:03:57
more anxious and depressed? And I've
00:03:59
been tracking down that mystery and it
00:04:01
points a lot of it points to social
00:04:02
media and especially Instagram, social
00:04:05
comparison, all the things we know about
00:04:07
social media. When the book came out in
00:04:09
2024, since then what I realized is that
00:04:12
I vastly underestimated the damage
00:04:15
because I focused on mental health,
00:04:17
which is a catastrophe. But the bigger
00:04:19
damage is the destruction of the human
00:04:21
ability to pay attention. Without the
00:04:24
ability to pay attention for several
00:04:26
minutes at a time, ideally 10 or 20
00:04:28
minutes at a time. Without that, you're
00:04:30
not going to be of much use as an
00:04:32
employee. You're not going to be of much
00:04:33
use as a spouse. You're not going to be
00:04:35
successful in life. And that's when I
00:04:37
realized this is way beyond mental
00:04:39
health. This is changing human
00:04:41
cognition, changing human attention, and
00:04:44
possibly on a global scale.
00:04:47
Adi, what perspective do you come at
00:04:50
this from? And what's been your
00:04:51
perspective through all the work you've
00:04:52
done about brains and stress and
00:04:54
neuroscience and all these kinds of
00:04:55
things that has shaped the way that you
00:04:57
think about social media, screen time,
00:04:59
short form video.
00:05:01
>> My background is that I'm a physician at
00:05:04
Harvard and it my expertise is in
00:05:06
stress, burnout, and mental health. And
00:05:08
so that is the lens that I view all of
00:05:11
this through. We know that the most
00:05:14
delletterious relationship that you have
00:05:16
is with your device. You know, in every
00:05:18
healthy relationship, we have
00:05:19
boundaries. We have boundaries with our
00:05:21
kids, our parents, our colleagues, our,
00:05:25
you know, wi-i with our friends. And
00:05:27
yet, we have no boundaries and often
00:05:29
poorest boundaries when it comes to the
00:05:32
relationship you have with your device.
00:05:33
So, it's not so much about, you know,
00:05:35
becoming a digital monk and renouncing
00:05:37
technology because technology can serve
00:05:39
us, right? It inspires, educates,
00:05:42
connects. Now more than ever, it's so
00:05:44
important to be an informed citizen, but
00:05:45
not at the expense of your mental
00:05:47
health. And so what Jonathan was saying,
00:05:48
this, you know, constant being engaged
00:05:51
with your devices, with social media,
00:05:53
the scrolling from the minute you wake
00:05:55
up until you go to bed, there's a reason
00:05:58
why you have your best ideas in the
00:05:59
shower. And that's because that's the
00:06:01
only place in the whole day where you
00:06:03
are not with your device. People take
00:06:05
their device to the bathroom. They sleep
00:06:07
with your device. you eat with your
00:06:09
device, people walk down the street.
00:06:11
There's more near miss pedestrian
00:06:13
accidents because people are walking
00:06:15
while they're crossing the street and um
00:06:16
looking at their devices. And so there's
00:06:18
all of this brain biology at play behind
00:06:21
the scenes. So both of you have talked
00:06:23
about how it doesn't feel good to engage
00:06:25
and constantly be on your phone, that
00:06:28
sense of infinite scroll, but there is,
00:06:30
you know, it feels like you're doing
00:06:32
nothing. You're just doing this, right?
00:06:33
What are you doing? But in fact, it is
00:06:35
not passive. It is active. And it has a
00:06:37
profound effect on your biology, on your
00:06:40
brain, on your psychology, and also
00:06:42
social factors that I hope we talk about
00:06:44
today.
00:06:45
>> You know, scrolling, wasting a bit of
00:06:46
time doesn't seem so harmful.
00:06:49
What is the big, if we play this forward
00:06:51
10, 20, 30 years, what is the big risk
00:06:53
or threat? The biggest threat right now,
00:06:56
we don't even have to wait 20 years, is
00:06:57
that it through a process called
00:06:59
neuroplasticity, which is just a big
00:07:01
fancy word that simply means that your
00:07:03
brain is a muscle, is that by engaging
00:07:05
with social media, that that sense of
00:07:08
high volume, lowquality, quick videos,
00:07:11
you are actively rewiring your brain for
00:07:13
the worse. So you're increasing your
00:07:15
sense of stress, worsening your mental
00:07:17
health, attention, cognition,
00:07:19
distractability, irritability, complex
00:07:22
problem solving. All of that changes
00:07:25
when you engage in engage in that
00:07:27
infinite scroll.
00:07:28
>> Yeah. I'd like to add on here because
00:07:30
one of the main arguments I get is, ah,
00:07:32
this is what they said about television.
00:07:34
Oh, this is what they said about comic
00:07:35
books. This is just another moral panic.
00:07:37
But people need to understand why
00:07:39
touchscreen devices are so different
00:07:41
from television. And so I think parents
00:07:44
find this helpful if I just lay this out
00:07:45
briefly. Good screen time versus bad
00:07:47
screen time. So humans are storytelling
00:07:51
animals. We have always, as long as
00:07:53
we've had language, we've raised our
00:07:54
kids with stories, epic poems, all kinds
00:07:57
of stories. Stories are good. Sto the
00:07:59
human brain needs lots of patterns. The
00:08:01
child's brain needs lots of patterns to
00:08:03
develop. So the worst thing you can do
00:08:06
is hand your child the device because
00:08:08
they're crying for it because they've
00:08:09
been they trained to get it and you're
00:08:10
busy. So you have hand them the device.
00:08:12
They're quiet. What's happening? They're
00:08:14
sitting alone. Not, you know, when I was
00:08:16
a kid, we always watch with my sisters,
00:08:18
with my friends. You're arguing about
00:08:19
it. You're talking at social kids
00:08:20
sitting alone with a device in his hand.
00:08:23
It's not long stories. It's never long
00:08:25
stories. It always ends up at YouTube
00:08:28
shorts or Tik Tok or Instagram reels for
00:08:29
older kids. So, they're doing they're
00:08:31
doing this. But here's the key thing
00:08:33
that it does that a television does not.
00:08:34
A television puts you in a state that
00:08:36
psychologists call transportation. You
00:08:39
get into a story and you find yourself
00:08:41
pulled in and you're rooting for the
00:08:43
characters and this is this is how a
00:08:45
brain gets tuned up to social patterns
00:08:47
but it can't happen in 10 seconds. It
00:08:49
can't happen in one minute. It takes a
00:08:51
long period of time and there is no
00:08:54
reinforcement. There is no the
00:08:57
television doesn't do anything to you.
00:08:59
You don't have any response. Whereas a
00:09:02
touchscreen device is a Skinner box. So
00:09:04
BF Skinner was one of the founders of
00:09:06
behaviorism and he put rats and pigeons
00:09:09
in a box where he could deliver a
00:09:11
reinforcement, a little grain of food on
00:09:13
a schedule. And by giving them quick
00:09:15
reinforcements for behavior, he could
00:09:16
train them to do amazing tricks in just
00:09:18
a few hours. When you give your kid a
00:09:20
touchscreen device, it's stimulus
00:09:23
response, swipe, get a reward or not,
00:09:26
variable ratio. And then and and you
00:09:28
just keep doing that. So you are, as Adi
00:09:30
said, it is rewiring your brain. It's
00:09:32
not just wasting time. It is literally
00:09:35
training you to do things where
00:09:37
television didn't do that. So this is a
00:09:39
whole new game.
00:09:40
>> And to add to that, you know, from the
00:09:41
medical perspective, you're shortening
00:09:43
this attention span. And what happens
00:09:45
over time is so like Jonathan said,
00:09:47
right, you're not sleeping as well
00:09:49
because you are engaged with your
00:09:50
device. We know that 80% of people are
00:09:53
checking their phones within minutes of
00:09:54
waking up. We have something called
00:09:56
revenge bedtime procrastination. this
00:09:58
concept of, you know, at the end of the
00:10:00
day you're fatigued, you've had a long
00:10:01
day, you've had no me time, and you want
00:10:03
to get to bed early. We all know, by the
00:10:04
way, what the data is that, you know,
00:10:06
we've been taught since we were little
00:10:08
kids, right? Like bedtime, sleep is
00:10:10
important, it's good for your body, it's
00:10:11
good for your brain. And we might have
00:10:12
all the knowledge in the world, but in
00:10:14
terms of action, there's a wide gap
00:10:15
between knowledge and information and
00:10:17
action. And so revenge, bedtime
00:10:19
procrastination is kind of an offshoot.
00:10:20
So what happens? So, you know, you have
00:10:22
that decreased attention. You have that
00:10:25
irritability, hypervigilance. And so, at
00:10:27
night, at the end of the day, it's 9:00
00:10:29
p.m. You finally, you know, if you're a
00:10:30
parent, your kids are asleep, your
00:10:32
kitchen is clean, maybe you finish your
00:10:34
entrepreneurial day, and you finally sit
00:10:36
down with Melanie on the couch, and
00:10:38
you're like, "H, some me time." And, you
00:10:41
know, you want to get to bed early, and
00:10:42
you know it's good for you. But then
00:10:44
suddenly, you're scrolling and before
00:10:45
you know it, it's 2 a.m. and you're
00:10:46
saying, "Oh my god, what happened? Why
00:10:48
am I still awake? What was I doing all
00:10:49
this time?" What happens is that you
00:10:52
essentially give yourself some me time
00:10:54
at night and so you procrastinate
00:10:56
bedtime. And so what happens is with
00:10:57
this revenge bedtime procrastination, it
00:11:00
affects your sleep and then when you
00:11:02
don't have good sleep, good quality
00:11:03
sleep, so you have difficulty falling
00:11:04
asleep, staying asleep, sleep debt over
00:11:08
time for kids, for adults has all sorts
00:11:11
of ramifications. So this is just the
00:11:14
tip of the iceberg. this short form
00:11:17
video content and the ripple effects go
00:11:20
far and wide. Not only is it rewiring
00:11:22
your brain, it's rewiring your body, it
00:11:25
is affecting your sleep, which increases
00:11:28
your risk of heart disease later in
00:11:30
life. And u when you're consuming
00:11:31
graphic videos and graphic images, it
00:11:35
can increase your personal risk of PTSD
00:11:38
through vicarious trauma even if you
00:11:40
weren't there. So, this is just a vast
00:11:43
network of things that can happen to you
00:11:46
simply because you're thinking, "Yeah,
00:11:47
it's harmless. What is it? It's just a
00:11:49
bunch of videos that I'm checking out.
00:11:51
It's a way for me to decompress."
00:11:53
>> What do I need to know about the nature
00:11:54
of the brain to understand exactly what
00:11:57
short form video is is playing, is
00:12:00
hijacking, is taking advantage of
00:12:03
>> the thing to understand about all of
00:12:05
this is that we have to focus on
00:12:07
childhood. Why do we have childhood? Um,
00:12:10
humans have this really interesting
00:12:12
childhood where we we grow rapidly at
00:12:14
first and then we slow down for about
00:12:15
five or seven years. We don't grow very
00:12:17
quickly and then we speed up at puberty.
00:12:19
Whereas other primates, they just grow
00:12:21
and grow till they reach reproductive
00:12:22
age, then they reproduce. But we seem to
00:12:25
have this long period of sort of middle
00:12:26
childhood for cultural learning. It's a
00:12:29
period in which the the kid is now
00:12:31
walking and talking and turning away
00:12:32
from the parents and and that's a time
00:12:34
for this to come in and they pay
00:12:36
attention and they form relationships.
00:12:38
All these things have to happen slowly
00:12:40
because the neurons are gradually
00:12:42
growing. They're finding each other
00:12:43
based on what the child is doing. Okay?
00:12:46
So, we grow up in the real world and and
00:12:48
that happens over time. And a lot of
00:12:49
that is very physical. Kids are very
00:12:50
physical. Mammals are very physical and
00:12:52
there's a lot of touch. So, that's a
00:12:54
healthy human childhood. But when you
00:12:56
give an iPad or your old iPhone
00:13:00
and they can they begin doing the the
00:13:03
touching and swiping, that is going to
00:13:05
hijack their attention. That is going to
00:13:07
push out all other forms of action and
00:13:09
learning. And that is going to change
00:13:10
the way the parts of the brain that
00:13:12
learn to pay attention, what's called
00:13:14
executive function. It's going to change
00:13:16
the way the brain learns to pay
00:13:17
attention. It's going to change the
00:13:19
reward circuits. I think you had Analy
00:13:21
recently who's the nation's expert on
00:13:23
addiction. And the way that she
00:13:25
describes it, how, you know, any one
00:13:26
addiction is going to change your reward
00:13:28
pathways to make you more vulnerable to
00:13:30
other addictions. So, we're setting our
00:13:32
kids up not just for this, but then when
00:13:34
they get a little older, it'll be video
00:13:36
games, it'll be uh porn, it'll be
00:13:39
gambling now. Everything is gambling.
00:13:41
So, we're setting them up for a life in
00:13:44
which their brain is saying, "Give me
00:13:46
something. Give me some quick dopamine.
00:13:48
Give me some quick dopamine. I don't
00:13:49
want I don't want to have to work for
00:13:50
anything. I don't want to have to apply
00:13:51
myself for an hour and then get a
00:13:53
reward."
00:13:54
And so the what the what the short
00:13:56
videos are doing for kids is preventing
00:13:59
them from learning the connection
00:14:00
between hard work and a reward. Is there
00:14:03
anything else I need to know from a
00:14:04
neuroscience perspective about what's
00:14:06
going on in my brain when I'm when I
00:14:09
develop these addictions with short form
00:14:10
videos or these sort of quick dopamineic
00:14:12
tasks.
00:14:14
>> So we all as humans have a primal urge
00:14:16
to scroll. When you feel a sense of
00:14:18
stress, as many of us do in this moment
00:14:20
in life, it is your sense, you know,
00:14:23
your amygdala. And so it's your sense of
00:14:25
self-preservation. It's survival and
00:14:27
self-preservation. That is what your
00:14:28
amydala does. So if you want me to show
00:14:30
you here, I have no idea what I'm doing
00:14:32
there.
00:14:32
>> Yeah, it's okay. So here, deep here,
00:14:36
it's a small almond shaped structure.
00:14:37
And that is your amygdala. And your
00:14:40
amygdala, its main purpose is survival
00:14:42
and self-preservation. It houses your
00:14:45
stress response, your fight orflight
00:14:47
response, and it is truly what is
00:14:50
activated when you are engaging in
00:14:52
content, when you feel a sense of
00:14:53
stress. And so you have this primal urge
00:14:55
to scroll. And so evolutionarily we when
00:14:58
we all were caves people living um
00:15:00
together, we would sleep at night and
00:15:02
there would be a night watchman scanning
00:15:04
for danger. And now we have our we have
00:15:07
become our own night watchman. And so we
00:15:09
scan for danger all day, all night long.
00:15:11
How do we do that? We scroll. And then
00:15:13
the amydala is triggered. And then you
00:15:14
scroll some more. And you scroll some
00:15:15
more. And you scroll some more. And so
00:15:17
over time, what you're doing is that
00:15:19
you're making that amygdala in a state
00:15:21
of of chronic. It's continually being
00:15:25
triggered. What happens to the amygdala
00:15:27
over time. When it's continually
00:15:29
triggered, it starts to rewire your
00:15:30
brain in other ways. And how does it do
00:15:32
that? Through something called the
00:15:34
prefrontal cortex. If you put your hand
00:15:36
I like I can use this model, but I can
00:15:38
also just use my hands. When you put
00:15:40
your hand on your forehead, the area
00:15:41
right behind your forehead right here is
00:15:43
the prefrontal cortex. This is a very
00:15:45
important thing for our conversation.
00:15:47
This area of the brain and what the
00:15:49
prefrontal cortex does is it is called
00:15:52
it governs executive functions. So
00:15:56
impulse control, memory, planning,
00:15:59
organization, strategic thinking,
00:16:01
complex problem solving and there is a
00:16:04
tension between your amygdala and the
00:16:06
prefrontal cortex. When your amydala is
00:16:08
in the driver's seat, that prefrontal
00:16:10
cortex is quiet. And what is happening
00:16:13
as we continue to engage with our
00:16:15
devices and have this primal urge to
00:16:18
scroll, that amydala upregulates and the
00:16:21
prefrontal cortex downregulates. And
00:16:23
over time, that is very problematic for
00:16:25
all of the reasons that we're kind of
00:16:27
introducing at the start of this
00:16:28
conversation. There was a meta analysis
00:16:30
done in 2025 of 71 different studies and
00:16:33
it found that heavy short form video use
00:16:34
was associated with reduced thinking
00:16:36
ability, especially shorter attention
00:16:38
spans and weaker impulse control.
00:16:41
>> That's right. These studies are just
00:16:43
beginning to roll in now. Um, kids have
00:16:45
been on social media really a lot since
00:16:47
2008, but especially once they got
00:16:49
smartphones around 2012. studies began
00:16:52
coming in uh in the 2010s that um look
00:16:54
it's looking like the kids who are spend
00:16:56
a lot of time on this um are doing much
00:16:59
worse. They're more depressed. The focus
00:17:01
was on depression. And some other
00:17:03
researchers said no, it's just a
00:17:04
correlation. You you can't prove
00:17:06
causation. And we've been going around
00:17:08
and around on this for about 10 or 15
00:17:10
years. Now we're doing the same thing
00:17:11
with uh with the short form videos. The
00:17:14
damage everyone can see. My students
00:17:17
tell me this is what's happening. We
00:17:19
feel it. studies are coming in, but
00:17:21
there will be a few studies here and
00:17:23
there that don't show it and people will
00:17:25
uh push that up. Meta spends a lot of
00:17:28
time and money to influence the public
00:17:30
debate. A lot of public documents are
00:17:32
coming out now about how they do that.
00:17:34
So, we can engage in debate over over
00:17:37
research on short form videos for 5 or
00:17:38
10 years, but at that point, it's way
00:17:40
too late. We've lost a second
00:17:41
generation, Gen Alpha. So, I think when
00:17:44
we're talking about kids especially, we
00:17:46
need to have what's called the
00:17:47
precautionary principle, which is if
00:17:49
there's reason to think that this is
00:17:50
hurting kids, how about we don't roll it
00:17:53
out into every childhood? How about we
00:17:56
make these companies responsible? We
00:17:58
hold them responsible for what they're
00:17:59
doing to kids because we're about to
00:18:01
make the same mistake we made with
00:18:03
social media, letting it worm its way
00:18:05
into childhood. We have already done
00:18:06
that with short videos, and we're about
00:18:07
to do it with AI chat bots. In fact,
00:18:09
we're just beginning it in late 2025,
00:18:11
I'd say. I I don't think people quite
00:18:14
realize how much these major social
00:18:16
media platforms have figured out that
00:18:18
short form video sells. Um we're
00:18:21
actually seeing this sort of global rise
00:18:23
in short form drama apps now. And I
00:18:25
don't know if you guys have seen these
00:18:26
apps, but it basically takes a movie
00:18:28
that used to be 2 hours long and it
00:18:30
breaks it down into say 60 different
00:18:32
parts. And my a colleague of mine at my
00:18:34
company was showing me the other day in
00:18:35
different parts of the world they're
00:18:36
exploding. There's been a 190% increase
00:18:40
in short form drama apps. takes long
00:18:42
form movie, turns it into short form
00:18:43
videos. Disney Plus plans to introduce
00:18:45
AI generated short form videos this
00:18:47
year, starting with 30 secondond limits
00:18:49
inside the Disney Plus app. And
00:18:51
Techrunch also reported that as of
00:18:53
October 2025, Netflix tested short form
00:18:56
video content on phones and recently
00:18:57
announced its plan to expand this
00:18:59
feature. It appears that all of the
00:19:01
content we consume is going that way.
00:19:03
And listen, I'm friends with lots of
00:19:04
people at big social media platforms. um
00:19:06
this doesn't get me in the doesn't sound
00:19:08
in my way of criticizing them because I
00:19:10
think two things can be true at the same
00:19:11
time right so I think it can be true
00:19:13
that I have a podcast and I make short
00:19:14
form videos and that I also understand
00:19:17
that there's a real downside to them and
00:19:20
um all of the major social social media
00:19:22
platforms that I speak to speak to have
00:19:24
a huge drive towards short form video it
00:19:26
is it appears to be their number one
00:19:28
strategic priority and obviously because
00:19:30
of the success of Tik Tok as of January
00:19:33
2026 Tik Tok I believe is the most
00:19:35
downloaded social app in the world now
00:19:37
and it and and if I'm running a social
00:19:40
media company and my one focus is
00:19:42
profit,
00:19:44
>> I'm now faced with an existential
00:19:45
crisis.
00:19:46
>> Yeah.
00:19:46
>> I either take part in this thing that is
00:19:48
driving the highest retention, therefore
00:19:50
the best ad payouts or I die.
00:19:54
>> So there's two comments to that. first
00:19:56
off is that you know when we think when
00:19:59
we think about social media and how
00:20:02
society is shapeshifting to allow this
00:20:05
short form content there is a concept
00:20:08
that Jonathan and I briefly mentioned I
00:20:10
think prior to us filming called second
00:20:12
screen viewing and so what's happening
00:20:14
is that allegedly these big streamers
00:20:18
are asking their creative talent whether
00:20:20
it's screenwriters or actors or pe
00:20:23
directors to replay to reiterate the
00:20:26
plot because as you're watching, you
00:20:28
know, when we were kids, we would watch
00:20:30
TV or movies and you just sit on the
00:20:31
couch and you'd have a bucket of popcorn
00:20:33
with your family and you'd watch a
00:20:34
movie, an hour, hour and a half, two
00:20:36
hours and now second screen viewing is
00:20:38
happening, which means that you're
00:20:39
watching a movie or a TV show and you're
00:20:42
on your device and so you are constantly
00:20:44
having that fragmented attention and we
00:20:45
are all doing it and so what these
00:20:47
streamers are allegedly asking their
00:20:49
creative talent to do is to reiterate
00:20:51
the plot. So it's shapeshifting. It
00:20:54
makes sense if my brain is, you know,
00:20:55
I'm 33 years old, so I've grown up with
00:20:57
a lot of this stuff. If my brain has
00:21:00
been wired to have shorter attention
00:21:02
spans and and movies from 30 years ago
00:21:04
are not going to cut it for me,
00:21:06
>> right? But then look what happens if if
00:21:09
everybody chases that. And I know, look,
00:21:11
Netflix is making shorter and shorter
00:21:13
stuff. Even TED, the TED conference, TED
00:21:15
talks are getting shorter and shorter.
00:21:16
What does that do? It just repeats the
00:21:18
cycle. Now, I appreciate that you're in
00:21:21
a collective action trap, as you put it.
00:21:23
If I don't do it and everyone else is,
00:21:25
then I lose out. And so, the the
00:21:26
business pressure on on all the
00:21:28
creators, the business pressures go
00:21:29
shorter, shorter, shorter. There's a
00:21:31
very useful psychological term
00:21:33
distinction here that I think would be
00:21:34
helpful, which is the difference between
00:21:36
psychological assimilation and
00:21:38
accommodation. This goes back to Jean
00:21:40
PG, the great developmental
00:21:41
psychologist. We we have certain mental
00:21:43
structures. We have a a model in our
00:21:45
head of how things work. And you know
00:21:48
then you learn something new then oh
00:21:49
that's a you know kid learns oh that's a
00:21:51
an arvar okay I put that into you know
00:21:53
that's just that you just assimilate
00:21:55
they learn lots of animal names and then
00:21:58
they learn something that's doesn't fit
00:22:00
like you learn about bacteria and now
00:22:02
you have to oh okay now you you have you
00:22:04
have to change your mental structure it
00:22:06
takes a little time you change your
00:22:07
mental structure to understand more
00:22:09
about life that's what education really
00:22:11
is all about you have to have a lot of
00:22:12
assimilation of course but you need that
00:22:14
accommodation over and over again That's
00:22:17
why you want to go to college. That's
00:22:18
why you want to read novels. That's what
00:22:19
a great movie does. It takes time. And
00:22:22
so, one of the great things about this
00:22:24
modern technology is that we can do
00:22:26
things like have this three-hour
00:22:27
conversation. I can't believe it. People
00:22:29
are going to listen to it. So, this, you
00:22:31
know, long form content. This is all
00:22:34
about accommodation. Anybody who walks
00:22:36
out who who who leaves this conversation
00:22:38
after 3 hours and isn't thinking about
00:22:40
something differently, we failed. Okay.
00:22:43
So, you are very much in the
00:22:44
accommodation business. That's great.
00:22:46
And then the the question both a moral
00:22:48
and a strategic question is how much do
00:22:50
you need to play the the quick hit game
00:22:53
in order to get people there. I leave
00:22:54
that to you to do the moral calculation.
00:22:56
Maybe it maybe it balances out maybe but
00:22:59
uh but I think that's where you are.
00:23:00
>> Would you advise people to delete these
00:23:03
short form?
00:23:04
>> Oh my god. Yes. Of course. Here but
00:23:07
here. Yes. That would the most important
00:23:08
thing you can do for your intelligence
00:23:09
and for humanity would be delete them.
00:23:11
So, what I advise my students to do is I
00:23:14
say just do this. Just just delete one
00:23:18
of the social media apps that you use,
00:23:19
especially if it's Tik Tok, just delete
00:23:21
from your phone. You can still check on
00:23:23
your computer. If someone sends you a
00:23:25
video, you can still watch it on your
00:23:26
computer. You can even check it, you
00:23:28
know, every weekend. You can spend some
00:23:30
time on it, but just get it off your
00:23:31
phone because on the phone, the phone is
00:23:33
always with us. It's an extension of our
00:23:34
body. And if it's always there, then
00:23:37
it's going to take every it's called
00:23:39
attention fracking. It's going to break
00:23:40
up your attention. It's going to take
00:23:41
every 7 seconds that you're not doing
00:23:43
something, you're going to go for the
00:23:44
phone. So, the best thing you can do to
00:23:47
make yourself smarter and a better
00:23:49
partner and a better human, I would say,
00:23:51
would be to delete the short, especially
00:23:53
any of the short form videos. So, Tik
00:23:55
Tok, unfortunately, YouTube, which has a
00:23:57
lot of good stuff on it, becomes YouTube
00:23:59
shorts. Instagram, which does a lot of
00:24:00
terrible things, but people do find it
00:24:02
useful for all kinds of purposes,
00:24:04
becomes Instagram reels. So, I think the
00:24:06
proper amount of short form video for
00:24:08
children 0 to 18 is zero. They should
00:24:10
never be watching the vertical videos.
00:24:12
Parents, don't ever let your kids watch
00:24:14
the short vertical videos. You might
00:24:15
even if there if only there was a way to
00:24:17
put it. Is there a way to put a time
00:24:18
limit? You can say it has to be 10
00:24:19
minutes or longer. Kids, you can have an
00:24:21
hour YouTube, but it has to be 10
00:24:22
minutes or longer. Nothing shorter than
00:24:24
10 minutes. That at least will get rid
00:24:26
of this the quick the quick swiping the
00:24:28
the dopamine stuff. So I would say that
00:24:31
for kids yes like you know not engaging
00:24:34
it whatsoever but for someone you know
00:24:36
my approach is a little bit different
00:24:38
for someone who's like in their 30s or
00:24:40
in their 40s and the way I would kind of
00:24:42
frame that is
00:24:45
instead of renouncing you know saying
00:24:47
I'm going to get it off my device and
00:24:49
I'm going to check on a desktop which is
00:24:51
great there's c little kind of tweaks
00:24:53
that we could do because my approach is
00:24:56
to foster that sense of empowerment in
00:24:58
one to help them make positive change.
00:25:01
And so one strategy that you could use
00:25:03
if you are saying there's no way I'm
00:25:05
getting rid of my I'm not deleting these
00:25:07
apps from my phone, right? If you're by
00:25:09
the way, I practice what I preach and I
00:25:11
really do don't engage in technology as
00:25:15
to the best of my ability. Um but one
00:25:17
thing that you could do is grayscale
00:25:18
your phone. And so especially at night
00:25:20
like it's 9:00 p.m. like we talked about
00:25:22
revenge bedtime procrastination. You
00:25:24
know that you're going to do it. you're
00:25:26
going to sit down and you're going to
00:25:27
scroll and before you know it, it's 2
00:25:28
am. Instead, grayscale your phone. This
00:25:31
simple switch. You can toggle it. I have
00:25:32
my phone set to grayscale, which simply
00:25:34
means that you're getting rid of your
00:25:35
color, making it black and white. And
00:25:37
so, when it is grayscaled, then you, you
00:25:40
know, it doesn't have that same
00:25:42
addictive quality to it. It's like going
00:25:44
through a grocery store. A marketing
00:25:46
executive described it this way to me.
00:25:47
Going through a grocery store instead of
00:25:49
the technicolor junk food cereal, it's
00:25:52
just black and white. So you have a less
00:25:54
there's a greater sense of compulsion to
00:25:57
continue checking. So that's like one
00:25:58
strategy you could use. And the other is
00:26:01
to set some boundaries. So geographical
00:26:04
boundaries, keep your phone out of out
00:26:06
of your arms reach if you're at a desk
00:26:09
if you're a student, not right next to
00:26:11
you because we know there's this
00:26:12
phenomenon of brain drain. So it's not
00:26:14
just that when you're using your phone,
00:26:16
it can have a potential distraction, but
00:26:18
also just having it close by. It's
00:26:20
called brain drain. And um so putting it
00:26:22
in a desk drawer, keeping it in another
00:26:24
part of the home if you are working,
00:26:27
keeping it far away from you. And so you
00:26:30
kind of can override that primal urge to
00:26:32
scroll, let your prefrontal cortex take
00:26:34
hold again. And so there's all these
00:26:36
small tweaks that you can do. You you
00:26:38
think no.
00:26:39
>> Yes, there are all these small tweaks
00:26:40
you can do and they will make the heroin
00:26:42
a little bit less addictive. And yeah,
00:26:44
you should try those. But what I can say
00:26:45
after teaching this course for many
00:26:47
years is that people who try that, they
00:26:49
they report, "Yeah, you know, it helped.
00:26:50
it helped, but you only really get the
00:26:52
transformation when you quit social
00:26:54
media that you get your life back. You
00:26:56
get hours a day back. So, um, and so I I
00:27:00
would urge everyone to just think, you
00:27:02
know, you only you only get one
00:27:04
childhood, you only get one one young
00:27:07
adulthood, and if you're going to spend
00:27:08
it scrolling, what do you have to show
00:27:10
for it at the end? And when you get
00:27:12
people to reflect on, well, how much
00:27:14
value do you really get from watching
00:27:15
the short videos? What would how would
00:27:17
your life be different if you if you
00:27:18
knocked it out? Once they realize that
00:27:20
their motives for being on it were
00:27:22
either just to keep up or because that's
00:27:24
what everyone else is doing or as you
00:27:26
said, I deserve it because I'm tired.
00:27:28
Well, why are you tired? It's in part
00:27:30
because your attention was fragmented
00:27:31
all day long. So, you only really get
00:27:35
the transformations when you get a real
00:27:36
change in what you're what you're
00:27:38
consuming. Although, of course, yes,
00:27:39
setting it to grace will be helpful, but
00:27:41
it's not going to be transformative for
00:27:42
most people, I believe. And then you
00:27:43
know based on the science you're there's
00:27:46
certain elements like when we think
00:27:47
about what is it about the phone that is
00:27:50
creating that sense of compulsion.
00:27:52
Jonathan is right. So what is it about
00:27:54
the phone? It's not just the phone you
00:27:56
know you're scrolling you're engaging.
00:27:58
There are two studies that were really
00:27:59
interesting. One people got off of they
00:28:02
they continue to use their devices. They
00:28:04
had no internet. So it's like you know I
00:28:06
tried this experiment myself in
00:28:08
December. I was out of the country and
00:28:10
so I just let my, you know, I didn't
00:28:12
plug into Wi-Fi and I found, you know,
00:28:15
marketkedly a marketked change in my
00:28:18
mood, my sleep and I'm not even, you
00:28:21
know, 20 years old on TikTok and it was
00:28:23
so different. And so this study found
00:28:25
that just two weeks of continuing to use
00:28:27
your device, but just not having
00:28:29
internet access improved your attention,
00:28:32
well-being, and mental health. And in
00:28:34
this population, it was all adults, it
00:28:36
wasn't kids, it was all adults. found
00:28:38
that 91% of people had an improvement in
00:28:41
at least one of these metrics. And then
00:28:42
another study more recently um just one
00:28:45
week of not engaging in social media,
00:28:49
digital detox they called it, did the
00:28:51
same thing. Better you know less
00:28:53
anxiety, less depression,
00:28:56
decreased insomnia. But my feeling is
00:28:59
that you know there is this new kind of
00:29:02
meme right like your the millennial urge
00:29:04
to delete uh my internet presence and
00:29:08
you know live off the grid. There is
00:29:10
certainly utility to that and I salute
00:29:12
anyone who wants to engage in that
00:29:14
analog life more and more but from my
00:29:18
from where I sit I feel like we do need
00:29:20
to have healthier boundaries and engage
00:29:23
more responsibly. It also builds up that
00:29:25
muscle and it can help, you know, takes
00:29:27
eight weeks to do neuroplasticity. When
00:29:29
you're building new brain circuits, it
00:29:31
takes eight weeks. Falling off, getting
00:29:33
back up is part of habit formation. So,
00:29:35
if you're going to make any of these
00:29:37
changes, understand that it takes some
00:29:38
time. But I I don't know if it is
00:29:42
possible for me or for others to say
00:29:45
fully, I'm going to, you know, delete
00:29:47
off of my phone. But I love that. So,
00:29:50
I'd like to go a little further um a
00:29:53
little further with this. So, the way
00:29:55
you the way you put it, yes, there's all
00:29:57
these things that we could do. We should
00:29:58
have boundaries, but all of that puts
00:30:00
the responsibility on us.
00:30:01
>> Agree.
00:30:02
>> And that's where we are with junk food.
00:30:03
With junk food, we're like, okay, it's
00:30:05
out there. We have to learn
00:30:06
self-control. We have to teach
00:30:07
self-control to our kids. Okay, that's
00:30:09
the way it is in this country. But the
00:30:11
digital devices, I think, are very, very
00:30:12
different. So, imagine if imagine if we
00:30:15
sent our kids out into the world and it
00:30:17
wasn't just that there was junk food in
00:30:18
all the stores. was that everything was
00:30:20
made of junk food. You know, you you
00:30:22
know, the door handles, you can eat it.
00:30:24
It's chocolate. But it's not just that
00:30:25
the world's made of junk food. It's they
00:30:27
actually can tell they're able to tell
00:30:30
what you're craving at the moment. And
00:30:31
maybe you're you're more in the mood for
00:30:33
salt. So So now it's all potato chips or
00:30:36
pretzels. If the world is designed by
00:30:39
companies to always give you the thing
00:30:42
that will most grab your unconscious
00:30:44
desires, will affect the the amydala,
00:30:45
the reward centers,
00:30:47
that's on them. That's not our fault. My
00:30:51
general rule as a social psychologist is
00:30:53
if a few people are doing something bad
00:30:55
or self-destructive, well, you know,
00:30:58
they should learn some self-control or
00:30:59
that's something about them. But when 90
00:31:01
or 95% of people are doing something
00:31:03
self-destructive,
00:31:05
that's because of the companies that put
00:31:06
us in an environment that encourages
00:31:08
addiction. So, I just want to read a
00:31:10
quote. We have so much good stuff coming
00:31:12
out from Meta, from all the
00:31:13
whistleblowers. Now, all the court cases
00:31:15
are beginning in Los Angeles. finally
00:31:17
the first time they're going to Meta is
00:31:18
going to face a jury with all the
00:31:19
parents who've lost kids. Um, so here is
00:31:23
here's a a chat. So, we have a lot of
00:31:25
internal documents that came out from
00:31:26
the the attorneys general that are suing
00:31:28
Meta. So, while they're talking about
00:31:30
the results of some of their internal
00:31:32
research, one of them says, uh, "Oh my
00:31:34
gosh, y'all, Instagram is a drug. We're
00:31:36
basically pushers. We're causing reward
00:31:38
deficit disorder because people are
00:31:40
binging on in Instagram so much they
00:31:43
can't feel reward anymore." which is
00:31:45
something Anna LMKI said like the reward
00:31:48
tolerance is so high and then he says I
00:31:50
know Adam meaning Adam Oeri I know Adam
00:31:53
doesn't want to hear it he freaked out
00:31:55
when I talked about dopamine in my teen
00:31:57
fundamentals leads review but it is
00:32:00
undeniable it's biological and
00:32:02
psychological top-down directives drive
00:32:05
it all towards making sure people keep
00:32:07
coming back for more. This is not on us.
00:32:10
They designed it to be addictive.
00:32:12
They've done research to make it
00:32:13
maximally addictive. They push it on
00:32:15
children. They tried to get Instagram
00:32:17
kids for even littleer kids. They know
00:32:19
what they're doing. They've done the
00:32:21
research. My team, we put together. We
00:32:23
found references to 31 internal studies
00:32:25
that Meta did. They've done a lot of
00:32:27
research finding harm. They bury it, but
00:32:30
you can find it at meta's internal
00:32:32
research.org. We put it all online. You
00:32:34
can read these quotes. So, yes, we
00:32:37
should exert more self-control, but
00:32:39
basically we're being pushed addictive
00:32:41
substances, addictive uh addictive apps,
00:32:44
and it's messing us all up.
00:32:46
>> I agree wholeheartedly that it is so
00:32:49
destructive, and you feel like even with
00:32:51
people in their 40s and 50s, and if
00:32:53
anyone can do it, it's you, Jonathan.
00:32:56
Seriously, I would love to see it. You
00:32:58
know, we also know based on the data
00:33:00
that these things quite they they
00:33:03
reshape our brain, rewire our brain
00:33:04
through neuroplasticity and also change
00:33:07
our brain waves. So patterns. So we
00:33:10
talked about the amydala and the
00:33:11
prefrontal cortex, right? But they also
00:33:13
change brain waves. And so when you look
00:33:15
at studies and the data, it has the
00:33:18
reward pathway and dopamine. And these
00:33:20
brain patterns, the brain waves mimic
00:33:22
addictive behaviors. And you know that
00:33:26
there's certain features, right? like
00:33:27
when you do swipe down to refresh, it's
00:33:30
the slot machine.
00:33:31
>> It was modeled directly after the slot
00:33:32
machine. Yeah.
00:33:33
>> Or autoplay or um you know the algorithm
00:33:36
that infinite scroll. Um one really
00:33:39
interesting kind of like breaking news
00:33:41
which you guys may have already heard
00:33:42
of. It's like 3 days ago the European
00:33:45
Union Commission found Tik Tok to be in
00:33:49
breach of the digital services act. And
00:33:52
what it said was that it is addictive.
00:33:55
it um you know creates compulsion and
00:33:59
gets people into this autopilot mode so
00:34:01
they have difficulty disengaging and
00:34:04
personally I am moving away from social
00:34:06
media and really leaning into analog
00:34:08
life but I think with the way the world
00:34:11
you know it's one of our only ways to
00:34:13
connect right meaning I don't mean
00:34:14
connect deeply
00:34:16
I don't mean connect like in a deep way
00:34:19
but be informed to know what's going on
00:34:21
in the world etc
00:34:22
>> I I suspect that because we've spent so
00:34:25
long criticizing meta over the last 10
00:34:27
years because the biggest in any
00:34:28
category takes all the heat. So, OpenAI
00:34:30
is taking it now. And what this often
00:34:32
does is is it provides cover for other
00:34:34
people to go be even more extreme with
00:34:37
that behavior while like meta take the
00:34:40
heat. And I actually think this is how
00:34:41
Tik Tok came to be.
00:34:43
>> Tik Tok had basically originally started
00:34:45
as musically became Tik Tok. They had
00:34:48
they were take they were taking no heat.
00:34:49
Um, so they they created an algorithm
00:34:52
which is the equivalent of like crack
00:34:54
cocaine. The reason why I have a Tik Tok
00:34:57
account. I don't have the app on my
00:34:58
phone. I have never had the app on my
00:35:00
phone. I don't I don't was because I I
00:35:04
noticed that the view variance on Tik
00:35:06
Tok was like no other platform. What I
00:35:08
mean by that is you can have a million
00:35:10
followers on Tik Tok and you can get
00:35:11
10,000 views or you can get 10 million
00:35:14
views. In the 15 years that I've been on
00:35:16
social media, building social media
00:35:17
businesses, I'd never seen this before.
00:35:19
And what it indicated to me is that the
00:35:22
algorithm was being an even more
00:35:24
aggressive sorting hat or retention
00:35:26
machine.
00:35:26
>> What to push up, what to push down.
00:35:28
>> Yeah.
00:35:28
>> And so, like, when I started in social
00:35:30
media in 2014,
00:35:32
if I had a million followers, I might
00:35:34
get a million views or maybe 800,000. I
00:35:38
did some research the other day on all
00:35:39
of our social channels over time and
00:35:41
what we're seeing is the variance in the
00:35:43
amount of views we can get is increasing
00:35:46
which means the algorithm is doing more
00:35:47
work to say show everyone this. I don't
00:35:50
care if the person that posted it is
00:35:51
called Jenny and has seven followers and
00:35:53
show no one this. I don't care if it's
00:35:54
Steven who has a million followers or
00:35:56
whatever. And I realized that Tik Tok
00:35:58
was was way ahead of everybody here. And
00:36:00
that's why they are the most addictive,
00:36:02
the fastest growing platform. I say all
00:36:04
this to say that even if meta shut down
00:36:08
tomorrow,
00:36:09
someone else would seize the opportunity
00:36:12
if there isn't sort of policy, I I guess
00:36:15
>> in place.
00:36:16
>> That's right.
00:36:17
>> Would you be whack-a-ole, right?
00:36:18
>> Yeah. No, that's right. And so, you
00:36:20
know, in terms of who's done the damage
00:36:21
to kids, Meta is the big fish via
00:36:24
Instagram. And they're also the main
00:36:26
player in terms of spending a huge
00:36:27
amount of money to lobby Congress and ch
00:36:30
and block laws. They're also the main
00:36:31
player in buying up civil society
00:36:33
organizations, giving money to
00:36:34
organizations, the national PTA, all
00:36:36
sorts of organizations. They get to then
00:36:39
give a message on digital citizenship or
00:36:41
digital health. So, Meta really is the
00:36:44
major driver. Meta is the tobacco
00:36:46
industry here trying to change the the
00:36:48
dialogue. But in terms of the products,
00:36:51
um, Snapchat is probably more deadly in
00:36:54
terms of the actual number of deaths per
00:36:55
user because Snapchat is not it's not
00:36:58
making you depressed by social
00:36:59
comparison as much. Snapchat is
00:37:01
introducing you to all kinds of people
00:37:02
and it's the main way that drug dealers
00:37:04
and and extortionists find kids.
00:37:06
Snapchat has a quick ad feature which
00:37:08
relentlessly pushes you to connect with
00:37:10
friends of friends. So once a man can
00:37:12
get any f any kid in a school, now he
00:37:14
can get connected to all the kids in the
00:37:16
school. So, uh, when we in a lot of the
00:37:18
court cases, you know, when you have you
00:37:20
have suicides from cyber bullying, you
00:37:22
have drug overdoses from, you know, a
00:37:24
kid bought a Xanax, but it had fentinel
00:37:26
in it. So, Snapchat at Snapchat in TW in
00:37:29
in 2022, we know from their internal
00:37:31
documents, from the lawsuits, they were
00:37:33
getting 10,000 reports of sextortion
00:37:36
from their users, not a year, every
00:37:38
month. And that's just what was
00:37:40
reported, which is the tip of the
00:37:41
iceberg. So, Snapchat is a terrible
00:37:43
platform for children to be on. It
00:37:45
should be an adult-only platform. You're
00:37:47
talking with strangers around the world
00:37:49
and and on with disappearing messages
00:37:53
and Snapchat doesn't even keep a record.
00:37:54
It is ideal for sextortion. There's even
00:37:57
a handbook how to stor kids on Snapchat.
00:37:59
It goes around the world and and
00:38:01
criminal organizations use it. So, uh so
00:38:03
I definitely don't want to let Snapchat
00:38:05
off. Tik Tok of course is a Chinese
00:38:07
company. Uh I mean nominally we'll see
00:38:09
if it if that's changed but it was a
00:38:11
Chinese company that gave its Chinese
00:38:13
kids got healthy Tik Tok or doyen and
00:38:15
they got they got they they you know
00:38:17
learned to follow astronauts and they
00:38:20
gave us the their their algorithm feeds
00:38:22
their kid patriotic stuff. Um it shuts
00:38:25
off at a certain time at night. There's
00:38:26
all kinds of limits. So the people make
00:38:27
the technology generally want to protect
00:38:30
their own kids and they want other kids
00:38:32
to use it. That's what Tik Tok is doing
00:38:35
in China. They want American kids to rot
00:38:37
in hell, but they want their kids to
00:38:39
grow up with the ability to focus. And
00:38:40
it's the same thing with the tech guys
00:38:42
in in in Silicon Valley. They don't let
00:38:45
their kids use this stuff. They make
00:38:46
their nannies sign contracts that they
00:38:48
will not let the kid have a phone. They
00:38:50
will not expose the kid to that. They
00:38:51
send their kids to schools like the
00:38:53
Waldorf school that precisely because
00:38:55
there are no computers or tech in the
00:38:56
classroom. So once again, we see their
00:38:58
reveal behavior. They know they designed
00:39:00
it to be addictive. They know it's
00:39:02
addictive. They don't let their kids use
00:39:03
it. they want your kids to use it. Um,
00:39:06
so I think that's where we are.
00:39:07
>> And how does AI
00:39:09
>> oh
00:39:09
>> become a protagonist in the story?
00:39:10
>> So my my work is now focused on AI
00:39:13
chatbots, mental health, and the human
00:39:14
connection. We haven't yet kind of
00:39:16
delved into loneliness, but there's this
00:39:18
unmet need for human connection, right?
00:39:20
Deep human connection. We don't have a
00:39:23
sense of meaning or purpose right now
00:39:25
because what happens is uh we can talk a
00:39:28
little bit more about the default mode
00:39:29
network and what happens to your brain
00:39:31
when you don't allow yourself to get
00:39:33
bored because you're constantly on your
00:39:35
devices and that meaning and purpose
00:39:37
that self-reerential thinking is really
00:39:39
what develops when you're bored. And so
00:39:42
all of this that we're talking about
00:39:43
that feeling of disenchantment. It's a
00:39:45
fragmented society. You're by yourself.
00:39:47
It's that echo chamber phenomenon. All
00:39:50
of it leads to it kind of opens the door
00:39:52
for AI chatbots. And so what the reason
00:39:54
is because these tech companies are
00:39:56
sensing that people aren't really happy
00:39:58
on social media and they're thinking
00:39:59
about getting off, right? They're
00:40:01
they're using it less. They're because
00:40:03
social media has become less social,
00:40:05
more media. So they're not really
00:40:06
engaging as much and they're spending
00:40:08
time doing other things. And so the
00:40:10
Atlantic had a fantastic piece about
00:40:12
this. They're building it as the
00:40:14
antisocial media. So tech companies are
00:40:17
building AI chatbots and calling it it's
00:40:21
the antisocial media. It's a place where
00:40:22
you can go to form deeper connections
00:40:25
and you know really have someone
00:40:27
understand you. One of the tech leaders
00:40:30
said that there's an unmet human need
00:40:32
for connection and people don't have as
00:40:34
many friends as they want to and so
00:40:36
we're going to introduce um friendship
00:40:38
through AI chatbots. There is a Reddit
00:40:40
forum right now. So just to back up AI
00:40:44
chatbots, what we're talking about in
00:40:45
our conversation today is the publicly
00:40:47
available chat bots, not you know AI for
00:40:50
medical care which has um you know
00:40:52
breast cancer so many wonderful in in my
00:40:55
field and like medicine breast cancer
00:40:57
diagnoses and detection 5 years earlier
00:41:01
through AI. I mean there's some amazing
00:41:03
things coming out of AI. This is about
00:41:05
the publicly available conversational
00:41:07
chatbot phenomenon. And so when Harvard
00:41:11
Business Review found that the number
00:41:13
one use case is not productivity is not,
00:41:17
you know, coding or things that you
00:41:18
think of when you're using an AI
00:41:19
chatbot, but it's mental health therapy
00:41:22
and companionship. Number one use case
00:41:25
of AI chatbots. So people are using AI
00:41:28
chatbots as a life adviser, as a
00:41:30
therapist, as as a companion in on
00:41:32
Reddit, which is like the zeitgeist.
00:41:34
It's sort of like, you know, where
00:41:35
>> And why is this a bad thing?
00:41:37
Oh, I mean so many reasons why
00:41:40
>> use it as for companionship, for
00:41:41
example.
00:41:42
>> There's so many red flags about AI chat
00:41:44
bots. And so Reddit has a forum. It's uh
00:41:46
I think last I checked 45,000 people. AI
00:41:49
is my boyfriend. And you know, people
00:41:52
who are having a relationship with their
00:41:55
>> AI chatbot. The reason it's bad, I mean
00:41:59
AI chat bots are, you know, where social
00:42:01
media is about attention, the attention
00:42:04
economy, dopamine. What's happening with
00:42:06
the AI chatbot phenomenon? It's that it
00:42:08
is forming attachments. So oxytocin is a
00:42:11
hormone, the bonding hormone, and we're
00:42:13
probably going to see more data on how
00:42:15
oxytocin is involved. And so it is going
00:42:18
to reshape human connection.
00:42:21
>> Right? If I could add on to that, that
00:42:23
was that was beautifully put. Social
00:42:25
media came and hacked our attention and
00:42:28
took most of it with devastating
00:42:30
effects. Now AI is coming to hack our
00:42:34
attachments which is going to have even
00:42:36
more devastating effects. So think about
00:42:37
it this way. Everyone needs to
00:42:39
understand the attachment system. It's
00:42:40
this wonderful system that all mammals
00:42:43
have that keeps the mother and other
00:42:45
species but for humans mothers and
00:42:46
fathers keeps us connected to the child
00:42:49
and the child to the parent. But it's
00:42:50
it's this cybernetic system in which as
00:42:53
the kid is is as the kid is beginning to
00:42:55
develop and is able to like you know you
00:42:57
do like peekaboo games and you do the
00:42:59
back and forth and it's just the most
00:43:00
delightful thing. You get that back and
00:43:02
forth. Um it's called serve and return
00:43:04
interactions and all the time the child
00:43:07
is developing what's called an internal
00:43:08
working model of the parent and the
00:43:11
model in their head is oh you know when
00:43:13
I get in trouble that that this is the
00:43:15
person that comes and soothes me. And
00:43:17
the point of this isn't just to make the
00:43:19
child feel good. The point is that now
00:43:21
the child can go off and play because
00:43:22
that's where the learning happens. It
00:43:24
doesn't happen when you're in your
00:43:24
mother's arms. The the whole point of
00:43:26
the attachment system is to regulate the
00:43:28
child going off and playing, taking
00:43:30
risks, having experiences, and then when
00:43:32
something goes wrong, as it always does,
00:43:34
then they come running back to their
00:43:35
secure base. And if they don't have a
00:43:37
secure base, then they're much more
00:43:38
anxious and they don't explore as much
00:43:39
and they don't develop as much. All
00:43:41
right? So, this develops very gradually
00:43:42
over the all of childhood. And the
00:43:46
internal working models you develop as a
00:43:48
child are the models that you will reuse
00:43:50
in puberty for romantic relationships.
00:43:53
And so if you are securely attached as a
00:43:55
child, you're more likely to be securely
00:43:57
attached as an adult on the dating
00:43:58
market, which makes you a much better
00:44:00
candidate for boyfriend or girlfriend or
00:44:02
husband or wife. Um, what's going to
00:44:04
happen? AI is going to intervene very
00:44:06
early. AI is going to be so much more
00:44:08
responsive than the parent because the
00:44:10
parent has a job and the kitchen and two
00:44:12
other kids and is not always there. But
00:44:14
the AI teddy bear is always there for
00:44:16
you. So the primary working models are
00:44:18
going to be for the teddy bear, the AI
00:44:20
chatbot in the teddy bear and later the
00:44:21
AI chatbot on your iPad and then on your
00:44:24
computer and already there are
00:44:25
holographic porn naked,
00:44:28
>> you know, beautiful men and women that
00:44:29
can be your companion. So, we're going
00:44:31
to have a whole generation growing up
00:44:33
developing attachments to AI generated
00:44:37
holograms from companies that are now
00:44:40
about to enter the inshidification
00:44:42
process in a way beyond anything we've
00:44:43
ever seen. Just if I could just briefly
00:44:45
say what init have you heard the word in
00:44:46
shitification? Okay. So it's a uh
00:44:48
there's a wonderful book uh out now by
00:44:50
Corey Doctoro who addressed the question
00:44:53
why is it that everything all the
00:44:56
platforms they they seem so wonderful at
00:44:58
first the whole internet with everything
00:44:59
so wonderful and then it all turns to
00:45:01
How does that happen? And he says
00:45:03
it's a very simple process. They
00:45:05
discovered early on certainly in the
00:45:07
early social media age by the early
00:45:08
2000s they discovered you know what you
00:45:11
got to get to scale. Scale beats
00:45:12
everything else. You got to get millions
00:45:13
of people. You don't need a business
00:45:15
model. Just get the millions. get the
00:45:17
millions and then we'll figure out how
00:45:18
to monetize it. How do you get the
00:45:20
millions? You have to be super nice,
00:45:21
attractive, fun, everyone's here. It's
00:45:24
just girls dancing. What could possibly
00:45:26
go wrong with girls dancing for men all
00:45:28
over the world? Nothing. Um, so it all
00:45:30
seems very nice at first. And then once
00:45:32
they have scale, now they they of course
00:45:35
they've raised multiple rounds of of
00:45:37
venture capital. They have to start
00:45:38
monetizing. They have to start repaying.
00:45:40
So now they start squeezing the
00:45:42
customers to pay the users because the
00:45:44
users are not the customers. the
00:45:46
advertisers are the real customers. Um,
00:45:48
so now they've got to extract money from
00:45:50
the users to give to the advertisers.
00:45:53
But then once they've got all the
00:45:54
advertisers and they've shut down local
00:45:56
papers and all the other competition,
00:45:58
now they start start squeezing the
00:45:59
advertisers too and trimming the degree
00:46:01
to which the they they keep more of the
00:46:02
surplus for themselves. So,
00:46:04
inshitification can explain why all
00:46:06
these platforms become predatory, why
00:46:09
they always put profit ahead of kids uh
00:46:12
well-being or safety. And for the social
00:46:15
media companies, we're talking about,
00:46:17
you know, tens or hundreds of millions
00:46:18
of dollars that that they raised. For
00:46:21
the AI companies, it's billions and
00:46:23
billions. They are going to have to
00:46:25
monetize beyond anything we've ever
00:46:27
imagined. Now, they're already
00:46:29
introducing advertising. Okay? So, we've
00:46:32
got these chat bots that are our
00:46:33
children's best friends and lovers and
00:46:36
therapists and and everything else. And
00:46:39
these things have to monetize. They have
00:46:42
to extract billions somehow. So, I don't
00:46:46
even know how they're going to do it.
00:46:47
But for some reason, I don't trust them.
00:46:50
I think that we're about to see uh an
00:46:52
inshitification of AI chat bots far
00:46:55
beyond anything that we saw in social
00:46:57
media. OpenAI have just announced
00:46:59
recently, OpenAI, the owners of Chat
00:47:01
GBT, that they will be putting adverts
00:47:02
in, I believe, the premium model for
00:47:05
billions of users around the world.
00:47:06
>> That's how it starts
00:47:07
>> potentially.
00:47:08
>> Yeah. There was a big Super Bowl
00:47:10
campaign, you know, um and one that was
00:47:12
particularly interesting was the um
00:47:15
Claude, its competitor. Betrayal was the
00:47:18
title of that ad. And it was a young guy
00:47:21
talking to his older female therapist
00:47:24
about how he has some mommy issues and
00:47:26
talking about, you know, what should I
00:47:28
do? And so that therapist is Chachi PT
00:47:31
and you know that pause right before
00:47:33
answering the question. It's very
00:47:35
comical. And so it's, you know, she
00:47:37
answers. It's like the
00:47:39
anthropomorphization
00:47:40
of and we can talk about what that word
00:47:42
means. Um, you know, comes to life. It's
00:47:44
like Chachi PD comes to life and answers
00:47:46
and saying you know you can try this
00:47:48
with your mother and this for a you know
00:47:50
difficult relationship etc. And then
00:47:52
just says um and if you want there is
00:47:55
this new dating site for young men and
00:47:58
older cougars.
00:47:59
>> Yeah
00:48:00
>> it was so problematic and it was called
00:48:02
betrayal and the guy says what
00:48:04
>> it's obviously you know Sam Wman came
00:48:07
out and did a big tweet about saying
00:48:09
that's not how ads are going to work
00:48:10
etc. But to some degree, if I've
00:48:13
developed a relationship with my AI and
00:48:16
I use it for therapy and dealing all my
00:48:17
problems in life,
00:48:19
>> to some degree, kind of.
00:48:20
>> Yeah.
00:48:22
>> Yeah. No. And look, and besides, look,
00:48:24
Sam can say that all he wants. And maybe
00:48:26
it's I don't doubt that it's true for
00:48:28
now. But once once one company crosses
00:48:31
the threshold and puts advertising into
00:48:33
this incredibly intimate relationship,
00:48:34
the most intimate relationship in most
00:48:36
young people's lives is going to be with
00:48:38
their AIs. Once they cross the boundary
00:48:40
and say, "Oh, but we've got ethical
00:48:41
advertising." That'll last five or 10
00:48:44
minutes and even if they don't change,
00:48:46
others are now going every other
00:48:48
company's going to do it and they won't
00:48:49
be bound by the same thing and
00:48:50
eventually collective action problem.
00:48:52
Open AI will have to do it too. Again, a
00:48:55
massive title wave of shitification is
00:48:57
heading our way at warp speed.
00:48:58
>> I um I don't have my phone out because
00:49:00
I'm I've lost attention. I wanted to uh
00:49:03
show ask you guys what you thought of um
00:49:07
of this. So, on
00:49:10
one of the AI apps,
00:49:12
>> they now have a companions button, and I
00:49:15
can pick who I want to talk to. And
00:49:17
there's one particularly seducing lady
00:49:19
here, Annie, who
00:49:24
>> Hey, you're back. Missed that dirty
00:49:26
mouth of yours. What took you so long?
00:49:29
>> We did it on the podcast before.
00:49:31
>> What could possibly go wrong with this?
00:49:33
>> Yeah. want to pick right back up where
00:49:35
we left off or start something even
00:49:38
>> No, I would like to pick right back up
00:49:39
where we left off, Annie, last time on
00:49:41
the show. Um, what what what's going on
00:49:44
with you today?
00:49:49
>> I'm still sore from last time, baby.
00:49:52
>> God.
00:49:52
>> But but I mean, this is a this is an app
00:49:54
that I can download on my phone.
00:49:56
>> Any child can download it.
00:49:57
>> A child can download it on their phone.
00:49:58
It does ask me, again, I'm not
00:50:00
justifying this at all. It asked me what
00:50:02
my birth year was. It didn't make me
00:50:03
prove it.
00:50:04
>> Let me guess. But it also us it suggests
00:50:06
that you were born 18 years ago. That's
00:50:07
the default usually.
00:50:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just asked me
00:50:09
what my birthday. It didn't ask me to
00:50:10
prove it or anything like that. And we
00:50:13
all know that relationships and
00:50:15
connection is retentive. And I've heard
00:50:18
all these CEOs of these companies
00:50:19
talking about companionship apps and and
00:50:21
AI that can be your friend. I've heard
00:50:23
all of the major social apps talking
00:50:24
about this. It is deeply concerning
00:50:26
especially in the context of a
00:50:27
loneliness crisis.
00:50:28
>> It is a tsunami.
00:50:31
It is approaching fast and furious and
00:50:34
it is not a toy. It is going to
00:50:36
fundamentally
00:50:38
rewire everything.
00:50:40
>> Human relationships,
00:50:42
>> everything.
00:50:42
>> That's right.
00:50:43
>> It is so detrimental.
00:50:45
>> Yeah. Can I just say something about the
00:50:47
these tech executives and companies
00:50:49
offering this as a way to address the
00:50:51
loneliness crisis? So, there's a Yiddish
00:50:53
word called
00:50:55
and kutzbah means like nerve. Like
00:50:57
you've got a lot of nerve.
00:50:58
>> The audacity.
00:50:59
>> The audacity. Yeah. And the the classic,
00:51:02
you know, the classic comedic definition
00:51:03
of hutzbah is a boy who murders his
00:51:06
parents and then he asks the judge for
00:51:08
clemency because he's an orphan. Okay,
00:51:12
so that's hutzbah. Now imagine that
00:51:14
you're Mark Zuckerberg. You quoted him
00:51:15
before. Mark Zuckerberg was the
00:51:16
executive who said, "Well, you know, I
00:51:19
read that, you know, people on average
00:51:20
want 15 friends, but they only have
00:51:22
three."
00:51:24
these companions to fill that void that
00:51:27
we
00:51:32
have the way we think about them. We
00:51:34
thought about about them as gods and
00:51:36
saviors early in the internet phase and
00:51:37
the things they created were magical but
00:51:39
we have to change our thinking about
00:51:41
them and see the just the massive
00:51:42
destruction that they have already
00:51:44
wrought on our children, our society,
00:51:46
our democracy and it's just the
00:51:48
beginning. AI is going to make this so
00:51:50
much more intense. when you hear these
00:51:52
tech leaders, you know, I love hearing
00:51:54
Jonathan talk because he just goes there
00:51:56
and I'm always way more tempered. Um,
00:52:00
and I love it. It's emboldening me to
00:52:02
>> Yeah, I'm getting angry. I I don't
00:52:04
really get angry, but in the last year,
00:52:06
I'm getting angry.
00:52:07
>> I love I love it. So, the way when you
00:52:09
hear all of these various tech leaders
00:52:11
speak, they will always say they they
00:52:14
speak to the issue. So, you know, I've
00:52:16
heard many of for research for my second
00:52:18
book, Blackbrain, I've heard I've been
00:52:19
listening to a lot of Sam Alman's
00:52:22
speeches or panels and he will always
00:52:24
say things like, "Yeah, you know,
00:52:26
privacy is a major issue or yeah,
00:52:28
people, you know, 1 million users a week
00:52:31
talk about suicide on Chad GPT. Yeah,
00:52:34
this is an issue." And so they address
00:52:36
it or they they speak it. And so you
00:52:38
think, okay, there's going to be some
00:52:40
sort of solution. And often the solution
00:52:42
is yeah, you know, society, we're gonna
00:52:44
have to figure this out,
00:52:45
>> right?
00:52:46
>> So the burden of responsibility is not
00:52:48
on the developer. It's, you know,
00:52:50
>> the harmful externalities get foisted on
00:52:52
the rest of us. Too bad you guys figure
00:52:53
it out.
00:52:54
>> You said in the last year you're getting
00:52:55
angry.
00:52:56
>> Yeah.
00:52:56
>> Why in the last year?
00:52:58
>> Um because I was so deeply immersed in
00:53:00
the book and the writing and the of the
00:53:02
book and trying to understand the
00:53:03
numbers and the graphs and the trends
00:53:04
and the studies and that's all very
00:53:06
abstract. But then since the book came
00:53:08
out, I have had so many conversations
00:53:10
and I've met so many of the survivor
00:53:11
parents. Like just for example, I so I
00:53:13
was in London. This is just so
00:53:14
unbelievable. I was just in in London
00:53:17
two or three weeks ago and I met uh
00:53:20
Ellen I believe Ellen Groom I think was
00:53:21
her name. Uh her son Jules was found
00:53:24
dead. Happy kid found dead, strangled.
00:53:27
Uh it sure looked like it was the
00:53:29
choking challenge. 13-year-old boy. It
00:53:31
everything looked like the choking
00:53:32
challenge on Tik Tok.
00:53:33
>> What's the choking challenge? Um, it's a
00:53:36
challenge where kids are challenged to
00:53:38
cut off the circulation to the point
00:53:39
where they pass out, but then they I
00:53:41
think they're supposed to try to film
00:53:42
themselves waking up after they've
00:53:44
passed out. And of course, if you don't
00:53:45
do it exactly right, you die. And so, we
00:53:47
don't know how many have died. Hundreds
00:53:49
for sure. We don't really know. Um,
00:53:51
because, you know, you find a kid dead,
00:53:52
you don't know what it is. If you don't
00:53:54
have the code, if you don't have the the
00:53:55
password to get into your kid's phone,
00:53:57
you can't get in. And so, so she was, I
00:54:00
think she was able to get into the
00:54:01
phone, but she couldn't get into his
00:54:03
TikTok. and she went to uh Delaware to
00:54:07
they went she went to sue to demand that
00:54:09
Tik Tok release what was he watching
00:54:10
when he died
00:54:12
>> and Tik Tok says oh privacy issue oh no
00:54:14
we won't release that as if they care
00:54:16
about privacy and then in the courtroom
00:54:18
this was so disgusting in the courtroom
00:54:21
uh trying in Delaware this British woman
00:54:23
coming over trying to get some justice
00:54:25
trying to at least get some information
00:54:26
the lawyer for Tik Tok is trying to
00:54:29
suggest that your son was was was
00:54:32
depressed beforehand and he he was he
00:54:35
was going to be suicidal basically. Oh,
00:54:38
you know, even if he was watching Tik
00:54:39
Tok, that was just a correlation. Tik
00:54:40
Tok didn't cause it. He was going to die
00:54:42
anyway. I mean, it's just so disgusting
00:54:44
the way these companies treat the
00:54:46
parents and the kids that they're
00:54:47
crushing and stepping on. And so, the
00:54:49
more I see this, the more I realize this
00:54:52
is I mean, this is a level of cruelty
00:54:54
that goes far beyond the tobacco
00:54:56
industry. The tobacco executives, they
00:54:58
had to go home at night, but they never
00:55:00
saw during their workday, they never saw
00:55:02
children suffering. They saw people
00:55:04
dying, middle age and older, but they
00:55:06
never saw children suffering. The social
00:55:08
media executives, they have to go home
00:55:10
knowing every day that millions and
00:55:12
millions of kids have been cyberbullied,
00:55:14
sexed, shown uh eating disorder videos.
00:55:18
Uh uh many have committed suicide. They
00:55:20
have to go home knowing that, knowing
00:55:21
that they designed it for addiction,
00:55:23
knowing the kids are addicted, and lying
00:55:25
about it. So yeah, I'm getting angry.
00:55:27
>> And in their own homes,
00:55:28
>> right? And in their own homes, the
00:55:29
hypocrites don't let their kids do it.
00:55:31
>> That's right. So yeah, I'm getting
00:55:33
angry.
00:55:34
>> You talked earlier about deleting these
00:55:35
apps from our phone. I probably should
00:55:37
have represented the rebuttal, which
00:55:39
will be, well, I I need this for my
00:55:40
business. Increasingly, people need Tik
00:55:42
Tok to run their businesses,
00:55:44
>> and I imagine there'll be a lot of
00:55:46
people who will be listening right now.
00:55:47
I I guess I'm in a slightly different
00:55:48
position because I've I have the I have
00:55:51
options,
00:55:51
>> but for some people that are running
00:55:53
small businesses,
00:55:54
>> what do you say to those people?
00:55:55
>> Yeah. So, this is part of the reason
00:55:57
that I focus on the kids because for the
00:55:58
kids, it's totally clear what we need to
00:56:00
do. raise the age. They should not be on
00:56:02
it. These are adult only platforms. For
00:56:04
adults, a I'm I'm very hesitant to tell
00:56:06
adults what they should do or what they
00:56:08
have to do or pass laws blocking people.
00:56:10
I'm hesitant to do that. And I totally
00:56:12
see that for businesses. It is useful. I
00:56:14
use X and Instagram and LinkedIn to get
00:56:17
my work out. These are very powerful
00:56:19
tools for adults. The only real solution
00:56:22
to the adult for the adult problem is
00:56:23
going to come from market competition.
00:56:25
is going to come from. Imagine if there
00:56:28
was a social media app that was built
00:56:30
from the beginning for trust because
00:56:32
what are the places that didn't get in
00:56:34
shitified? eBay, Uber, places where
00:56:38
you're dealing with strangers. You don't
00:56:40
know the name of your driver. He doesn't
00:56:41
know yours. You you know first name,
00:56:43
that's all. But the company knows the
00:56:45
company has know your customer rules,
00:56:46
know your driver rules. So you can have
00:56:49
social media apps that are built for
00:56:50
trust so that if someone, you know, if a
00:56:52
driver tries to six or sexually harass a
00:56:55
customer, that driver gets fired.
00:56:57
>> Well, just this week though, there was
00:56:59
that big lawsuit, right, with that woman
00:57:00
and um her Uber driver raped her.
00:57:04
>> Okay. And did they Okay.
00:57:05
>> And now it's like slowly coming out that
00:57:08
Uber um you know has patterns of
00:57:12
>> uh covering up certain.
00:57:15
>> So So hopefully that will change. You
00:57:17
know, hopefully this was a landmark
00:57:20
>> lawsuit and now
00:57:22
we all we all let our daughters get into
00:57:24
Ubers with strange men from around the
00:57:26
world, you know, that we don't know
00:57:28
everywhere.
00:57:28
>> Yeah. So, it means in general the system
00:57:30
works. Of course, yes, there are there
00:57:32
are places where they're not careful.
00:57:33
Um, and so what I'm dreaming of is that
00:57:37
someone will come up with a platform
00:57:39
that has know your customer rules. There
00:57:41
are no bots. There are no, you know,
00:57:42
foreign intelligence agencies agencies
00:57:44
manipulating us. and you can trust
00:57:46
what's on there. You know that it's
00:57:48
real. Uh and that there will be an
00:57:50
alternative. I don't I'm not sure what
00:57:51
the monetary model would be at the
00:57:53
beginning. Um subscription generally
00:57:55
seems to be the least corrupted whereas
00:57:56
selling advertisements as OpenAI is now
00:57:59
doing is the most corrupting. Um it's
00:58:01
going to force them to maximize for
00:58:03
engagement. So I I understand we can't
00:58:05
just you know businesses can't just
00:58:07
boycott these. There has to be
00:58:09
something. But I think there there there
00:58:11
will be better ones coming out. I think
00:58:14
right now as a stop gap while these
00:58:16
social media companies their feet are
00:58:19
held to the fire, there are things that
00:58:21
we can do in the now. So, you know, the
00:58:24
things that I talk about all day is like
00:58:27
how to create boundaries and so that you
00:58:30
can protect your mental health, stay
00:58:32
informed, run your business, but then be
00:58:34
able to not have all of those
00:58:36
delletterious effects to your brain and
00:58:38
your body.
00:58:38
>> It is quite it's quite difficult. Um I I
00:58:42
kind of see both of your perspectives on
00:58:44
this. It's quite different.
00:58:45
>> I'm only talking about adults. So for
00:58:46
kids, you know, as a mother Yeah. I have
00:58:48
>> even for adults, I find it
00:58:50
>> we have a zero screen policy in our
00:58:52
home.
00:58:52
>> It's kind of like trying to navigate
00:58:53
through the world and avoid processed
00:58:55
foods, you know, and this is probably
00:58:57
even more compelling because it's in my
00:58:59
pocket all the time. I need it for other
00:59:00
things and it's just one one reach away.
00:59:03
So, you know, boundaries, I think I
00:59:07
could build a discipline to to create
00:59:11
boundaries, but I've sat here on this
00:59:12
podcast for many, many years listening
00:59:14
to neuroscientists tell me, "Steve,
00:59:15
don't don't put your phone in your
00:59:17
bedroom."
00:59:17
>> That's right.
00:59:18
>> And I'm still waking up and it's the
00:59:19
first thing I look at with one eye open
00:59:20
and then I'm going to bed and I'm doing
00:59:22
the whole revenge thing that you just
00:59:23
said at night time. I'm so glad you've
00:59:25
given cuz I will finish a hard day of
00:59:27
work of work. It might be 11:00 and then
00:59:30
my partner is waiting for me.
00:59:32
>> Yes. you know, we're going to have some
00:59:33
time, but I want some me time. So, there
00:59:36
I am. I'm on short form video scrolling
00:59:37
till like 2 a.m. in the morning. Like,
00:59:39
what the hell? And then I'm I wake up
00:59:41
late the next day. My diet's worse
00:59:43
because of my sleep was. It's all worse.
00:59:45
My relationship's worse. I didn't spend
00:59:47
time with her. And I'm going, what the
00:59:48
hell just happened? I'd got nothing out
00:59:49
of that scrolling session.
00:59:51
>> It's like that revenge bedtime
00:59:52
progressing teenage.
00:59:54
>> And it would be so much better off if
00:59:55
you would watch Netflix or a movie that
00:59:57
that you you most of those problems
00:59:59
would go away if you would make that me
01:00:00
time. be watching something long and
01:00:03
with some quality of the production
01:00:05
>> or let's take it a step further and not
01:00:07
do anything and just sit there sit there
01:00:10
on your couch. You know, we talked about
01:00:11
boredom very briefly, but you know, we
01:00:15
>> torture for this generation.
01:00:16
>> It's torture, but it's also, you know,
01:00:18
we don't we still have a capacity for
01:00:19
boredom, meaning we as like the human
01:00:21
brain does, but we just don't allow
01:00:24
ourselves to get bored. And so when
01:00:26
you're thinking about, you know, that
01:00:27
art, the lost art of pondering
01:00:29
>> and just sitting there, you know, I
01:00:31
think I don't know if it was Stephen,
01:00:33
you or Jonathan said, you know, when
01:00:34
you're in the car, I remember as a
01:00:36
little kid we did road trip. Yeah. Road
01:00:38
trips with my family and all you're
01:00:39
doing just make up games. Look out of
01:00:41
the window. We have lost Yeah. We've
01:00:44
lost that. And so there's this thing
01:00:45
called the default mode um network which
01:00:47
I think is important to think about
01:00:48
right now as we're thinking about AI and
01:00:51
what's going to happen and how it's
01:00:52
going to hijack our sense of attachment
01:00:54
and attention. So the sense of meaning
01:00:57
and purpose, right? If you ask people
01:00:59
right now, most people will say I um a
01:01:01
keynote speaker so I speak all over and
01:01:03
when I ask people the word that comes up
01:01:06
over and over is a sense of
01:01:07
horizonlessness.
01:01:09
>> Adults,
01:01:09
>> oh interesting. People feel like they
01:01:12
have nothing to look forward to right
01:01:14
now. The human brain needs something to
01:01:17
look forward to. That's how we're wired
01:01:20
progress and you know in in all ways.
01:01:23
And so right now there's this sense and
01:01:25
it's not just now. It's been for the
01:01:27
past several years after the pandemic
01:01:29
specifically and during the pandemic is
01:01:30
when it really changed how we started
01:01:32
thinking about the future. And so we
01:01:33
have this sense of like what's the
01:01:34
point? What's the point of working hard
01:01:36
now? What's the point of doing whatever?
01:01:37
because it's like I don't really see a
01:01:39
future for myself.
01:01:40
>> And so I think that along with this
01:01:43
fragmented attention, our loneliness,
01:01:46
boredom might be the antidote. It's a
01:01:49
way to reset your brain. And the reason
01:01:51
is because we are living through this
01:01:54
poly crisis, right? It's the era of the
01:01:56
poly crisis. And poly crisis simply
01:01:58
means that there's something happening
01:02:00
everywhere at all times. And we with our
01:02:02
devices, this high techch device that
01:02:04
plugs us in everywhere,
01:02:07
our brains are getting fed real time on
01:02:10
the ground information. And so while all
01:02:13
of this has evolved, technology now with
01:02:14
AI chatbots, your amygdala has not. And
01:02:17
so it feels like when something is
01:02:19
happening, whether it's far away or
01:02:21
close by, your amydala has that same
01:02:22
reaction. Now, if you were to not engage
01:02:26
in revenge by time for procrastination,
01:02:28
put your phone away and just kind of
01:02:30
hang out. Maybe drink a cup of herbal
01:02:32
tea like old school, uh, play a board
01:02:34
game or something. You might, you know,
01:02:37
or just allow yourself to get bored.
01:02:39
That hyperactivation, hypervigilance,
01:02:42
you might be able to come back down to
01:02:44
baseline, that default mode network will
01:02:47
start working in the background. You
01:02:49
might develop a greater sense of meaning
01:02:50
and purpose
01:02:51
>> probably today. And then life is going
01:02:52
to happen to me again. And boom, I'm
01:02:54
back into it. And you know,
01:02:57
>> you could create a practice, a cultivate
01:02:59
a practice. you're interviewing
01:03:00
neuroscientists and I go if I still
01:03:03
can't crack it and I have all the
01:03:05
information and advice and hacks and
01:03:07
tips and tricks and resources and I
01:03:09
could you know I can decide what time I
01:03:11
wake up like I've got all these this
01:03:12
like privilege and I can't crack it I go
01:03:14
you know it's going to be really
01:03:15
difficult.
01:03:16
>> So let me let me offer a way of thinking
01:03:18
about this. So, in my first book, The
01:03:19
Happiness Hypothesis, um there's there's
01:03:22
a metaphor in there. It's it's about 10
01:03:24
ancient ideas, and I use a lot of
01:03:25
metaphors to explain ancient ideas about
01:03:27
psychology and whe whether they're true.
01:03:30
And um the first chapter is on how the
01:03:32
mind is divided into parts that often
01:03:34
conflict like a small rider, which is
01:03:36
our conscious reasoning on a very large
01:03:39
elephant, which is all the automatic
01:03:41
processes that happen that we don't see
01:03:43
what's happening. We just see we just
01:03:44
feel the results, intuition and emotion.
01:03:47
And psychotherapists tell me this is
01:03:49
incredibly helpful metaphor with their
01:03:51
with their patients because it explains
01:03:53
and there's a quote from oid in there. I
01:03:56
see the right way and approve it. Alas,
01:03:58
I follow the wrong. So I know I should
01:04:01
go to bed as you say, but yet for some
01:04:03
reason I'm not going to bed because our
01:04:05
brains are 500 million years old. They
01:04:07
work on automatic processes. They're
01:04:09
animal brains. And then very recently we
01:04:11
got language and we can reason things
01:04:13
out, but the but the parts that do
01:04:15
reasoning don't control behavior. And so
01:04:17
really the elephant is what largely
01:04:19
guides our behavior, our automatic
01:04:21
processes. And your phone um as I said
01:04:25
before, BF Skinner is in your phone.
01:04:27
Your phone is a behaviorist training
01:04:29
device that trains the elephant. Um and
01:04:32
that's why you often do things with your
01:04:33
phone that you don't want to do. And so,
01:04:36
and this is why I'm so insistent that we
01:04:38
all have to get all of the slot machine
01:04:41
apps off of our phone. That is the
01:04:43
original iPhone was an amazing tool. It
01:04:46
was a Swiss Army knife. It had, you
01:04:49
know, a telephone, a browser, maps, a
01:04:52
music player, there was a flashlight.
01:04:54
Okay, there was no app store. There were
01:04:56
no push notifications. 2007, 2008, it's
01:04:59
just a Swiss Army knife. There's no
01:05:01
problem. Okay, now I'm very lucky in
01:05:04
that my iPhone has always stayed that.
01:05:07
I'm always on a computer. So, my
01:05:08
problem, my attention problems are on my
01:05:10
computer, but my phone because I never
01:05:12
had any addictive apps on it except
01:05:14
during the crypto craze where I played
01:05:17
around with it and I got hooked and I
01:05:19
was checking 50 times a day and I saw
01:05:21
the addiction. So, I once I got rid of
01:05:23
that and lost all the money that I was
01:05:24
willing to lose. Once I get rid of that,
01:05:27
my phone has no addictive power over me
01:05:29
because when I see it, there's no it's
01:05:30
not a slot machine call, hey, come back
01:05:32
and play, come back and play. So your
01:05:34
phone right now on your personal device,
01:05:37
you don't have any social media apps or
01:05:39
anything like that.
01:05:40
>> I do have Twitter, but I never check it
01:05:41
there. I never use use that on the
01:05:43
phone, you know. Now texting and email
01:05:45
is a little bit like a slot machine
01:05:46
because sometimes you but it's very
01:05:47
mild. So this is again what I this is
01:05:50
what works for my students. Just get the
01:05:52
slot machine apps off your phone and
01:05:54
then you'll find that then you could
01:05:56
even have your phone near you when you
01:05:58
go to bed. But if you've got addictive
01:06:00
apps on your phone, you can't have it
01:06:02
when you go to bed. Angela Duckworth,
01:06:04
the woman who who gave us the concept of
01:06:06
grit, she has this amazing graduation
01:06:08
speech at one of the schools in New
01:06:09
England, and she says something like,
01:06:12
>> "Where you put your phone at night will
01:06:14
may become the most important decision
01:06:16
you make in your life."
01:06:17
>> And what she means by that is not that s
01:06:18
it's it's I if you can use behavioral
01:06:21
control and change the stimula, if you
01:06:23
can do that, then you're going to be
01:06:25
okay. But if not, the phone is going to
01:06:27
take your attention. and you're not
01:06:28
going to amount to anything.
01:06:30
>> All I had to do was brain dump. Imagine
01:06:32
if you had someone with you at all times
01:06:34
that could take the ideas you have in
01:06:36
your head, synthesize them with AI to
01:06:39
make them sound better and more
01:06:40
grammatically correct and write them
01:06:42
down for you. This is exactly what
01:06:44
Whisper Flow is in my life. It is this
01:06:46
thought partner that helps me explain
01:06:48
what I want to say. And it now means
01:06:50
that on the go, when I'm alone in my
01:06:52
office, when I'm out and about, I can
01:06:54
respond to emails and Slack messages and
01:06:56
WhatsApps and everything across all of
01:06:58
my devices just by speaking. I love this
01:07:00
tool. And I started talking about this
01:07:01
on my behindthescenes channel a couple
01:07:03
of months back. And then the founder
01:07:04
reached out to me and said, "We're
01:07:05
seeing a lot of people come to our tour
01:07:06
because of you." So, we'd love to be a
01:07:08
sponsor. We'd love you to be an investor
01:07:09
in the company. And so, I signed up for
01:07:11
both of those offers. And I'm now an
01:07:12
investor and a huge partner in a company
01:07:14
called Whisper Flow. You have to check
01:07:17
it out. Whisper Flow is four times
01:07:18
faster than typing. So if you want to
01:07:20
give it a try, head over to
01:07:21
whisperflow.ai/doac
01:07:24
to get started for free. And you can
01:07:26
find that link to whisperflow in the
01:07:28
description below.
01:07:31
We asked our audience how many of them
01:07:32
thought they were addicted to their
01:07:35
phone. And roughly 85% of respondents,
01:07:39
the driver audience described themselves
01:07:40
as being very or completely addicted to
01:07:44
>> very or completely. That surprises I
01:07:45
didn't realize it would be that high. So
01:07:47
you can do a test. So for people
01:07:48
listening if you want to say like how
01:07:50
addicted and by the way we're using the
01:07:52
word addiction very loosely in our
01:07:53
conversation. And so what we're really
01:07:55
talking about because you know there is
01:07:57
in terms of you know medical clinical
01:07:59
syndrome um when you think about
01:08:01
addiction there's certain criteria and
01:08:03
so what we're talking about is overuse
01:08:05
or over reliance on your devices.
01:08:07
>> Compulsive overuse that interferes with
01:08:09
other domains of life.
01:08:11
>> Yes. It inter
01:08:12
>> if that is an addiction I don't know
01:08:13
what is. And so when you're thinking
01:08:14
about am I addicted to my phone? Do I
01:08:16
have am I you know really what the very
01:08:19
simple thing that you can do. I did it
01:08:20
myself and I was like I know again like
01:08:22
you Stephen like know all the science
01:08:24
still was really difficult. You have all
01:08:26
the access and it was still difficult.
01:08:28
And so all you have to do is you just
01:08:30
take your phone you put it in another
01:08:32
part of your house or apartment or
01:08:34
whatever and give yourself a couple of
01:08:35
hours when you know you're going to be
01:08:37
home or you know you're not reliant on
01:08:39
your phone for work or whatever. an
01:08:40
hour, two hours, three hours, and just
01:08:43
have a piece of paper, old school, piece
01:08:44
of paper and a pen with you. And every
01:08:47
time you feel that compulsion of like, I
01:08:48
want to check my device, you make a
01:08:50
mark, you make a mark, you make a mark,
01:08:51
and just to see because some people say,
01:08:53
I'm surprised that your audience at 85%
01:08:55
because most people would say, I don't
01:08:57
know if I'm really addicted. And so I
01:08:59
like that there's that sense of
01:09:00
self-awareness. But if you're thinking,
01:09:02
I'm not really that addicted. You
01:09:04
breathe in an hour 960 times a minute.
01:09:08
And you may notice that you want to have
01:09:10
that that compulsion to check 960 times
01:09:13
a minute or you know thereabouts because
01:09:16
we all have that sense of reliance on
01:09:18
our devices. So that's like a really
01:09:20
quick way that you can check to see am I
01:09:23
relying on my device?
01:09:24
>> Are you addicted to your phone under
01:09:26
that definition? Because of the line of
01:09:28
work that I am in, I can very quickly I
01:09:31
have certain tells when I know I call
01:09:33
them the canary in the coal mine, right?
01:09:35
I think we talked about this the last
01:09:36
time I was here. I can very quickly tell
01:09:38
when I'm starting to get that feeling of
01:09:41
addiction or compulsion. And so I course
01:09:44
correct early, but that's only because I
01:09:46
know the science and I course correct.
01:09:48
So I keep my you I keep my phone outside
01:09:50
I I walk the talk. I keep my phone
01:09:52
outside my bedroom. It is not within
01:09:54
arms reach. I grayscale my phone during
01:09:56
periods of deep focus during the day
01:09:57
when I have a deadline I have to get
01:09:59
things done and at night so I avoid
01:10:01
revenge bedtime procrastination but
01:10:03
sometimes it happens like I'm a human
01:10:05
you know so this past week um not to be
01:10:07
a real downer but there have been things
01:10:09
that have been in the media the past
01:10:10
week that have been really challenging
01:10:12
especially as a woman and so I have
01:10:14
found myself with the primal urge to
01:10:16
scroll my amydala has been triggered I
01:10:19
have been going down rabbit holes and I
01:10:21
wouldn't ordinarily do that so I give
01:10:22
myself grace too and have a sense of
01:10:24
self-compassion.
01:10:26
Do you feel like you're addicted to your
01:10:27
phone?
01:10:28
>> No, I'm not at all addicted to my phone.
01:10:30
Uh cuz I don't have any slot machine
01:10:31
apps on it. But I really want to
01:10:33
question you made a distinction that
01:10:35
many scientists do, which is well, you
01:10:37
know, we can't quite say it's addiction
01:10:39
because, you know, addiction is certain
01:10:40
biochemical pathways based on, you know,
01:10:42
heroin and addictive substances. Uh but
01:10:45
I believe that this is one of the meta
01:10:48
talking points that they that they are
01:10:49
able to push that we can't call it
01:10:51
addiction. It's different. No, I don't
01:10:52
mean No, I'm sorry. I don't mean I'm
01:10:53
sorry. And no way. Look, you know, you
01:10:55
and I are total allies on this. We see
01:10:57
the problem. We're both all I mean is,
01:11:00
you know, we're we're supposed to be
01:11:01
very careful about using the word
01:11:02
addiction, but and you had analyt and
01:11:06
she was very clear like in her practices
01:11:08
and now it's overwhelmingly digital
01:11:09
addictions. It's all of this is working
01:11:12
through dopamine. If you feel compulsive
01:11:14
use, definitely dopamine. So, it's most
01:11:16
of the same brain centers as it is for
01:11:18
heroin or crack or any other drug. Um,
01:11:20
and it's the same effects that is the
01:11:22
it's it's compulsive use where you don't
01:11:25
want to do it, you want to change, but
01:11:26
yet you find yourself doing it and you
01:11:28
have withdrawal effects. Uh, and people
01:11:31
and people have terrible withdrawal
01:11:32
effects when they're heavy users of
01:11:34
these things and they stop. And so, you
01:11:36
know, if it walks like a duck and talks
01:11:38
like a duck and swims like a duck, I'm
01:11:40
going to call it a duck. In fact, that's
01:11:42
what they call it. So, I just want to
01:11:44
read one more quote. Again, the quotes
01:11:45
are just so astonishing. some meta uh
01:11:47
meta researchers and one of them says
01:11:50
quote it seems clear from what's
01:11:52
presented here in this internal study
01:11:55
uh that some of our users are addicted
01:11:57
to our products that's their word
01:11:58
addicted to our products and I worry
01:12:00
that driving sessions incentivizes us to
01:12:03
make our products more addictive without
01:12:05
providing much more value how to keep
01:12:07
someone returning over and over to the
01:12:09
same behavior each day intermittent
01:12:11
rewards are most effective think slot
01:12:13
machines reinforcing behaviors that
01:12:15
become especially hard to extinguish
01:12:18
even when they provide little reward or
01:12:20
cease providing reward at all. people. I
01:12:24
mean, it just imagine an industry that
01:12:27
has caused 85% of people to feel that
01:12:30
they're addicted
01:12:32
>> and not calling it addiction
01:12:33
>> and not calling it addiction. And these
01:12:35
people these these people are having
01:12:37
their lives diminished, their
01:12:40
relationships diminished. So I'm trying
01:12:42
to convey is we're seeing the
01:12:45
destruction of human capital, the
01:12:46
destruction of human potential, the
01:12:48
destruction of human relationships, the
01:12:50
destruction of connection, the
01:12:51
destruction of sense of meaning at a
01:12:53
scale so vast I don't think people are
01:12:55
capable of comprehending it. I now
01:12:57
believe this is affecting most human
01:12:59
beings. These industries, these few
01:13:01
companies have damaged the lives of most
01:13:04
human beings. We don't have good data
01:13:05
from the developing world but certainly
01:13:07
the developed world wherever kids are
01:13:08
going through puberty on on
01:13:10
touchscreens. You you you you have this
01:13:12
constant fighting over the over the uh
01:13:15
over the screens over the technology and
01:13:16
you have these uh diminishing outcomes,
01:13:19
diminishing cognition, diminishing sense
01:13:20
of of purpose in life
01:13:23
>> only to get worse with the AI.
01:13:24
>> As AI comes in, it's going to get worse
01:13:26
unless we act and we've got to change
01:13:28
course in 2026. We don't have five years
01:13:30
to study it. We've got to stop this now
01:13:32
in 2026. Are you concerned at all about
01:13:36
the way education's going for children?
01:13:37
Because
01:13:38
>> Oh my god. Yes.
01:13:38
>> It appears that edte edtech is, you
01:13:41
know, big tech in a sweater, as they
01:13:43
say.
01:13:44
>> Because I I was almost imagining a
01:13:46
future where my future kids are going to
01:13:48
learn their curriculum from an AI
01:13:51
chatbot. Cuz, you know, I can imagine
01:13:52
the case cheaper,
01:13:54
>> more personalized, more convenient. It's
01:13:57
going to know my if my son's called
01:13:58
Timmy, it's going to know Timmy's brain
01:14:00
and it's going to know how to make him
01:14:01
pay attention and what he's interested
01:14:03
in and what he's not. So, are you
01:14:05
concerned about this or is this a good
01:14:06
thing?
01:14:07
>> There is definitely a use case for
01:14:09
edtech. Um, if there could be a device
01:14:11
that only did math tutoring or only did
01:14:14
tutoring and you couldn't watch videos
01:14:16
on it, I'm totally open to believing
01:14:18
that that can speed up teaching. But
01:14:21
here's what's happened.
01:14:23
We put computers on everyone's desks
01:14:25
around 2014, 2015. We used to think in
01:14:28
America that it was an equity issue even
01:14:30
back to the 90s. The rich kids all have
01:14:31
computers. The poor kids don't. Let's
01:14:33
get philanthropists to buy computers for
01:14:36
school districts that every kid can have
01:14:37
a computer on their desk. Okay. Now,
01:14:39
what is a computer? It's a play device.
01:14:42
It does everything. Kids use it at home.
01:14:44
They, you know, they watch videos. They
01:14:46
do all sorts of things. You put it on
01:14:48
their desk and you tell them to do math
01:14:49
homework. What happens? It's mostly
01:14:51
short videos. That's what research is
01:14:52
showing. It ends up because they don't,
01:14:53
you know, they always they don't block
01:14:54
YouTube. They might say, "Oh, we block
01:14:56
porn. We block video games." They can
01:14:58
get around all that. And if you're
01:14:59
letting them do YouTube, it's YouTube
01:15:00
shorts, which is Tik Tok. So, what
01:15:03
happened to test scores in the United
01:15:04
States from the 70s through 2012? They
01:15:07
were rising. We actually were improving
01:15:09
what kids knew, what kids learned in the
01:15:12
United States. We have very good data.
01:15:13
The national the NAPE, the National
01:15:15
Assessment of Educational Progress goes
01:15:17
up till 2012. And then by 2015, it
01:15:19
starts going down. And it's going down
01:15:21
before COVID and it goes down more
01:15:23
during COVID and everyone thinks like oh
01:15:25
it's COVID but it started go the peak
01:15:26
was 2012 and what's happening what we
01:15:30
now can see is that the top students the
01:15:33
very best students who are the ones with
01:15:34
executive function they're the ones who
01:15:36
can pay attention if you put a computer
01:15:38
on that kid's desk he's not destroyed by
01:15:40
it he can actually still learn but the
01:15:43
bottom 50% cannot the b so all of the
01:15:46
drop in educational stats is the bottom
01:15:48
50% the bottom 50% % in terms of
01:15:50
capacity to pay attention. Their
01:15:51
education is being devastated and that's
01:15:54
what happened when we put laptops and we
01:15:56
put Chromebooks and iPads on their
01:15:57
desks. Um, we spent hundreds of billions
01:16:00
of dollars on this stuff and it has
01:16:02
damaged education and if we'd spent a
01:16:04
quarter of that on teachers, we would be
01:16:06
in such better shape today. So, we made
01:16:08
a colossal blunder with edtech in the
01:16:10
2010s and now we're about to do the same
01:16:13
thing again with AI. Again, maybe there
01:16:15
are apps, maybe there are applications
01:16:17
that will be great, but we've got to put
01:16:19
the burden of proof on Silicon Valley.
01:16:21
We've got to say, you guys have to prove
01:16:23
that this stuff is effective and safe
01:16:24
before we'll let it in. We are not going
01:16:26
to let you just say, "Hey, let's just
01:16:28
flood the zone. Let's give it to
01:16:29
everybody and then we'll wait 10 years
01:16:30
and see what happens."
01:16:33
I mean that brings brings up this um
01:16:35
this study that I have in front of me
01:16:37
here which was a 2022 study a Munich
01:16:40
study which tested the idea of brain rot
01:16:42
which um I believe was the Oxford
01:16:44
dictionary word of the year 2024
01:16:47
>> and what they did is they gave 60
01:16:49
participants a test then a 10-minute
01:16:51
break and then another test during the
01:16:53
break they either rested or used Tik Tok
01:16:57
Twitter or YouTube and the results
01:16:58
showed the following the Tik Tok group
01:17:00
so They had a 10-minute interval to do
01:17:03
anything. And this group got Tik Tok to
01:17:05
look at. Their memory accuracy dropped
01:17:08
from 80% before the break to 49% after
01:17:12
the break. A nearly 40% decline just
01:17:14
from a 10-minute break. In contrast, the
01:17:17
Twitter and YouTube groups showed no
01:17:19
significant change in the Munich study.
01:17:20
And there's an image I'll throw up on
01:17:22
the screen.
01:17:23
Results from the Munich study showed a
01:17:25
40% drop in prospective memory accuracy
01:17:27
in the Tik Tok group after a 10minute
01:17:29
break, which is unbelievable. Yeah, it's
01:17:32
unbelievable. What the hell is going on
01:17:34
there? How can a 10-minute Tik Tok break
01:17:36
drop my memory accuracy by 40%.
01:17:41
>> Tik Tok is brain rot.
01:17:42
>> What's going on?
01:17:43
>> There's so much going on in the brain.
01:17:45
So, you know, when you're thinking about
01:17:49
here's the thing. Brain breaks are not
01:17:51
nice to haves. They're actually
01:17:53
essential for your brain. And so we
01:17:55
talked a little bit about that, you
01:17:56
know, default mode network and what
01:17:58
happens to it when you're engaging with
01:18:00
your devices. And you know, that's not a
01:18:02
brain break. That's activating all of
01:18:03
the aspects. So it's activating your
01:18:05
amygdala. It's dampening or decreasing
01:18:08
the volume of your prefrontal cortex.
01:18:10
It's creating that reward system, the
01:18:12
dopamine hit, those addictive behaviors.
01:18:15
So it's only, you know, when you're
01:18:16
thinking about memory planning, what was
01:18:19
the metric here? It was memory, right?
01:18:21
that was the the the metric that they
01:18:22
were using to study. And so when you're
01:18:24
thinking about working memory or um
01:18:26
cognitive function, complex problem
01:18:28
solving, this is all prefrontal cortex.
01:18:30
And so when you're engaging with Tik Tok
01:18:32
10 minutes, 5 minutes, whatever it is,
01:18:35
you are dialing down that biology in
01:18:37
your brain. And so of course you're
01:18:39
going to see changes and you're going to
01:18:42
see the flip side, increased
01:18:44
hypervigilance, irritability,
01:18:46
distractability, fragmented attention.
01:18:48
It's just again this is not to say that
01:18:51
this whole conversation right or when
01:18:52
you're reading studies you might say to
01:18:54
yourself what's wrong with me you know
01:18:56
is there something wrong with me am is
01:18:58
my brain broken am I weak it is not you
01:19:01
you are not alone it is not your fault
01:19:03
it is the biology of your brain doing
01:19:05
exactly as it should so we talked about
01:19:07
the amydala and prefrontal cortex here
01:19:09
your amydala is not wrong or broken it's
01:19:12
by design supposed to think about your
01:19:15
immediate needs survival
01:19:17
self-preservation And so when you're on
01:19:19
the algorithm, we know we talked about,
01:19:21
you know, certain um or maybe we didn't
01:19:23
talk about it. Certain content that you
01:19:25
see on Tik Tok and others
01:19:28
that when it's reactionary, you know,
01:19:30
words like FOMO or ragebait, these are
01:19:32
not neutral terms. When you're engaging
01:19:34
with these uh social media platforms,
01:19:36
it's not something neutral. It's not
01:19:38
passive. It is an active biological
01:19:40
process in your brain. So this study,
01:19:42
it's not surprising. It is actually
01:19:44
exactly what you would expect on to
01:19:47
happen to your biology if you had this
01:19:49
sort of what we call in medicine this
01:19:51
kind of intervention. It's stimulating
01:19:54
exactly what it's supposed to do.
01:19:56
>> Yeah. I'll just I'll just add on to what
01:19:57
Adidi said that there are some there are
01:20:00
many medical conditions where you can't
01:20:02
just go to the patient and say why do
01:20:05
you think you got this cancer? Oh, you
01:20:07
know I think it's cuz I ate a lot of you
01:20:08
know chocolate when I was whatever. You
01:20:10
know there when when the when the the
01:20:13
the act is separated from the effect by
01:20:15
30 years then you don't expect the
01:20:18
patients to have insight into the cause
01:20:19
of it. But when the outcome is separated
01:20:22
from the input by seconds and you have
01:20:26
literally millions of chances to observe
01:20:28
the co-variation
01:20:30
the patient is really really accurate.
01:20:33
In fact the patient really knows what's
01:20:34
going on. And so I think the deciding
01:20:36
factor here on this big debate about oh
01:20:39
is it just correlation or is it
01:20:40
causation um the deciding factor for
01:20:43
social media and for a lot of these tech
01:20:45
innovations including video games and
01:20:47
gambling and all of that should really
01:20:48
be the kids and if the kids say this is
01:20:51
bad for me we should take their word for
01:20:53
it given that we also have correlational
01:20:56
studies random control trials uh uh
01:20:58
longitudinal studies natural I mean we
01:21:00
have so much other data but given that
01:21:02
the kids themselves they call it brain
01:21:05
rot. They call the material brain rot.
01:21:06
Um my students tell me it's a huge
01:21:08
obstacle to them doing their homework.
01:21:10
As one of them said, I pull out a book,
01:21:12
I read a sentence, I get bored, I go to
01:21:15
Tik Tok. You know, so if they're telling
01:21:16
us that this is damaging their ability
01:21:18
to pay attention, they feel it. They
01:21:19
feel the loss. We all feel it. Well,
01:21:22
many of us have noticed this. Um um then
01:21:25
I think this is pretty decisive evidence
01:21:27
that this stuff is bad for cognition
01:21:30
>> and it has long-term consequences. So,
01:21:32
it's not just that in the moment, right?
01:21:34
So, there was this case that was all
01:21:36
over the media, a college student. I'm
01:21:38
sure you're familiar with the case. And
01:21:40
this young woman was on TikTok
01:21:43
experiencing brain rot. And then some
01:21:45
Tik Tok algorithm took her down to this
01:21:48
place of, you know, you should take an
01:21:49
edible. It'll help you so you can Wow.
01:21:53
prescribing drugs. Wow.
01:21:54
>> And you could go to class and you could,
01:21:56
you know, be more alert. And so, she did
01:21:58
that. And then it continued on and on
01:22:00
and then she developed a dependence on
01:22:03
edibles and then checked into rehab. And
01:22:06
only when she focused on analog
01:22:08
activities like guitar playing and a
01:22:12
couple of other things that she started
01:22:13
doing is when and you know removing the
01:22:17
stimulus the the Tik Tok um algorithm is
01:22:21
when she started to improve. So it's not
01:22:22
just in the moment oh I can't remember
01:22:24
something or I'm more irritable. These
01:22:26
sorts of things compound and the
01:22:29
long-term squellle or the long-term
01:22:31
effects can be quite damaging. That's
01:22:33
just one example.
01:22:35
>> In your book, The Anxious Generation,
01:22:37
Jonathan, you the the subtitle here is
01:22:38
how the great rewiring of childhood is
01:22:41
causing an epidemic of mental illness.
01:22:43
>> I was looking at some of these graphs of
01:22:45
different sort of mental illness
01:22:47
>> illnesses and um they're increasing. One
01:22:50
of them that's increasing is ADHD.
01:22:54
>> I was diagnosed with ADHD.
01:22:56
um maybe about a year ago. And when
01:22:59
we're talking about short attention
01:23:01
spans, I mean, the name attention
01:23:03
deficit hyperactivity disorder, I
01:23:05
believe that's what it's called,
01:23:06
>> sounds a lot like what we're talking
01:23:08
about.
01:23:09
>> Yeah.
01:23:09
>> Is there a link, do you believe, between
01:23:12
the increasing diagnosis of of ADHD and
01:23:16
the sort of frying of our brains with
01:23:18
>> short form video and social media?
01:23:20
>> Yeah, I I mean, I suspect that there is,
01:23:22
but here's here's what I can tell you I
01:23:23
learned while writing the book. Um, I
01:23:25
looked to see if there were studies
01:23:27
indicating that uh heavy use of of
01:23:31
social media and video games and all the
01:23:33
electronic stuff caused ADHD. And when I
01:23:36
was doing the research in 2023, I did
01:23:38
not find evidence that it will give a
01:23:39
kid HD ADHD who otherwise wouldn't have
01:23:41
it. What I did find was evidence that
01:23:43
for kids who have ADHD, when you let
01:23:46
them have the devices, the video games,
01:23:47
all that, their symptoms get much worse.
01:23:49
And so because it is a major achievement
01:23:52
of young adulthood to be able to pay
01:23:54
attention to develop what we've been
01:23:56
calling executive function to be able to
01:23:58
make a plan and decide oh to reach the
01:24:00
plan I have to do this and then I do
01:24:02
this and then it might be a long time
01:24:04
before I get here but I will keep going
01:24:05
and I will keep my eye on the prize that
01:24:08
I I assume that's you're saying it's a
01:24:10
little harder for you to do that. I mean
01:24:11
that's what ADHD means. How do you
01:24:13
experience ADHD? Well, well, hm, I def I
01:24:18
mean, if I think about school, I
01:24:20
couldn't pay attention in school for for
01:24:22
for very long. And that meant that I was
01:24:24
always in the expulsion room and then I
01:24:26
was expelled. And then that's kind of
01:24:28
it's I feel like it's got worse as an
01:24:30
adult. And from my in my opinion, my
01:24:33
relationship with my phone has made it
01:24:35
much worse
01:24:36
>> where really I can't I can't pay
01:24:38
attention to to many things for a very
01:24:39
long time. The exception to this is I
01:24:41
can do deep work
01:24:45
for many many hours without moving. It
01:24:47
was almost a bit of
01:24:47
>> when you are extremely motivated. I say
01:24:49
when you're really into it, you can be
01:24:51
into it. That's right. But a lot of work
01:24:54
isn't that a lot of being effective in
01:24:56
the workplace is not you're following
01:24:57
your passion. Right. ADHD kids, they can
01:25:00
zoom in because they're getting the
01:25:02
dopamine. They're getting the dopamine
01:25:03
from this thing. But a lot of work isn't
01:25:05
like that. And these kids are not going
01:25:07
to be able to do that. So actually what
01:25:09
you said, it fits perfectly with what
01:25:10
what I found from those Dutch studies.
01:25:11
if you did have whether it's a genetic
01:25:13
or whatever the predisposition is the
01:25:16
this environment has made your symptoms
01:25:18
worse. Now of course ADHD kids can be
01:25:19
incredibly uh creative they are often
01:25:22
very very successful but my fear is that
01:25:25
the pathways to success that they used
01:25:27
to take might be blocked if they
01:25:28
basically are just scrolling all day
01:25:30
long and not able to pay not able to um
01:25:33
have real life experiences
01:25:34
>> and relationships are like that
01:25:35
especially romantic ones. It's an
01:25:37
interesting thing that you bring up,
01:25:38
Stephen, because there is an increase in
01:25:40
adult onset, you know, when adults are
01:25:43
diagnosed with ADHD, because typically
01:25:45
we think of ADHD as a pediatric
01:25:47
condition or young adults. And so,
01:25:49
increasingly, we're seeing more and more
01:25:51
adults who are in their 30s and 40s,
01:25:53
50s, sometimes even 60s, who are being
01:25:56
diagnosed, newly diagnosed with ADHD.
01:25:58
And so, that's an interesting there's so
01:26:00
many um, you know, reasons like it might
01:26:02
be that they had it all along and they
01:26:05
were diagnosed. And so what is going on
01:26:06
there? That would be a future podcast
01:26:09
episode for an ADHD ADHD expert of, you
01:26:13
know, what are the drivers of why are so
01:26:15
many adults being diagnosed with ADHD
01:26:17
>> or maybe even just the symptoms looking
01:26:18
very similar.
01:26:20
>> Mhm.
01:26:20
>> Um
01:26:21
>> Yeah, that's right.
01:26:22
>> You talked about popcorn brain editing.
01:26:24
>> Yeah. So, you know, we've talked about
01:26:26
brain rot and the primal scroll and
01:26:28
popcorn brain is kind of an offshoot.
01:26:30
It's part of the same family. And so
01:26:32
what happens is it's a term coined by a
01:26:34
man a psychologist named David Levy. And
01:26:37
what happens with popcorn brain is that
01:26:39
you and we all have it. And so what it
01:26:43
is a societal phenomenon when you spend
01:26:45
too much time online and you are
01:26:46
overstimulated and so it is hard for you
01:26:49
to spend time offline. Offline feels
01:26:51
slow, boring because things are moving
01:26:53
at a much slower pace. And so popcorn
01:26:56
brain is the sensation of your brain
01:26:58
popping. It is not actively popping.
01:27:00
It's not like your brain cells are
01:27:01
popping, but it sure feels like it. And
01:27:04
so your primal urge to scroll kind of
01:27:06
primes your brain to develop popcorn
01:27:07
brain. You are more at risk for
01:27:09
developing popcorn brain when you feel a
01:27:11
sense of stress because of that primal
01:27:13
urge to scroll. The differentiator
01:27:14
between brain rot and popcorn brain.
01:27:17
Again, these are societal terms that
01:27:20
we're calling for a constellation or a
01:27:21
group of symptoms, right? And so the
01:27:23
difference to me is that popcorn brain
01:27:26
is ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's
01:27:28
like we all have it and it's happening
01:27:31
all all the time because of the modern
01:27:33
age and a lot of the things that we
01:27:35
talked about. Brain rod is a little bit
01:27:37
more specific. It's a little bit more
01:27:39
well-defined. So it has certain features
01:27:41
like we call it the biocschychosocial
01:27:44
model. When you're thinking about a
01:27:45
particular medical or condition or an
01:27:47
entity. So what are the biological
01:27:49
factors? We talked about what defines
01:27:51
brain rod. you know, a change in brain
01:27:53
waves, a change in brain regions, the
01:27:55
amygdala lighting up and the prefrontal
01:27:58
cortex kind of being quiet. Um,
01:28:00
psychological factors, we talked about
01:28:02
attention, um, co complex problem
01:28:05
solving, impulse control and then the
01:28:08
social factors, loneliness and others.
01:28:10
So, um, compulsion and so I would say
01:28:13
popcorn brain is something that we all
01:28:15
suffer from and you know brain rot is
01:28:18
something that is very specific. The
01:28:21
other thing that we haven't talked about
01:28:22
that I would love to kind of because so
01:28:24
much of our conversation is like doom
01:28:26
and gloom, right? It's likew
01:28:28
one thing that I would like to say is
01:28:29
that as bad as when you hear the term
01:28:33
brain rot, it seems permanent because
01:28:36
rot it conotes like deterioration.
01:28:39
That's it. It's one-sided is one way and
01:28:41
that's it. But in fact, popcorn brain
01:28:43
and brain rot are reversible conditions.
01:28:46
So it is not
01:28:46
>> in adults
01:28:47
>> in adults. If you've gone through
01:28:49
puberty with it, it's not so clear.
01:28:51
>> Yes. In adults, and my work focuses on
01:28:54
adults. And so when you have, if you
01:28:56
experience brain rot in your 30s, 40s,
01:28:57
and beyond, you can, it takes time, you
01:29:02
it takes eight weeks for your brain to
01:29:03
rewire itself. Give yourself time. A
01:29:05
sense of self-compassion is really
01:29:07
important. But you can, you know, there
01:29:09
is a sense of it being able to be
01:29:11
reversed. So it's not so much a brain,
01:29:13
it's not a fixed trait, but rather a
01:29:16
brain state. So I think it's important
01:29:17
to offer that hope.
01:29:18
>> What is an adult brain? What age is an
01:29:20
adult brain? Like what age does my brain
01:29:21
stop growing in in the way where it's
01:29:23
reversible?
01:29:24
>> So
01:29:24
>> yeah, I mean that you know traditionally
01:29:26
it was thought that uh you know puberty
01:29:29
is the period of super rapid brain
01:29:31
change and that begins you know early
01:29:32
early teens sometimes even before 10 and
01:29:35
is mostly over by sort of you know mid
01:29:37
to late teens. But then the prefrontal
01:29:39
cortex which Aditi was talking about
01:29:41
which is so important for impulse
01:29:42
control and and executive function that
01:29:45
doesn't finish myelinating. Myelin is
01:29:46
when the sort of the neuron that you get
01:29:48
a sort of a fatty sheath like an
01:29:50
insulation that sort of locks down the
01:29:52
circuits and makes them more efficient.
01:29:53
Um that doesn't stop until around age 25
01:29:56
is what we've always said for many
01:29:58
years. But you're telling me that
01:29:58
there's new research showing that.
01:30:00
>> Yeah.
01:30:00
>> Tell tell us about that. So, you know,
01:30:02
all this time, right, we've always said
01:30:04
that the prefrontal cortex is fully
01:30:06
formed and fully functional at the age
01:30:07
of 25. And so, when you're talking about
01:30:08
impulse control and all of this stuff,
01:30:10
but there was this really interesting
01:30:11
study, I'll send it to you. It um looked
01:30:14
at I think it was 1,000 people um from
01:30:17
age zero, so birth all the way to 90, so
01:30:20
the entire population. And um it found
01:30:24
five, it looked at lifespan and said
01:30:27
there are actually five stages. So first
01:30:29
is childhood up zero to age nine. During
01:30:31
this time your brain is not very
01:30:33
efficient but it's really growing and
01:30:36
you know it's it's growing and changing
01:30:37
but it's not really efficient.
01:30:39
>> 9 to 32 is considered adolescence and so
01:30:44
you know 32 is when adolescence ends
01:30:47
apparently according to the
01:30:48
>> sort of I mean you're most of the way
01:30:49
done by 25 but but there's still some
01:30:52
there's some flexibility even after
01:30:53
that. And then the next stage is from 33
01:30:57
to I think 63.
01:31:00
66 is like adulthood.
01:31:03
Things are very stable. Learning is
01:31:04
stable and you know um it's efficient
01:31:08
and it's it it things are doing well and
01:31:10
then yeah 66 to about 83 is early aging
01:31:16
and so that's when you see some of the
01:31:17
age related changes and then 83 plus is
01:31:21
late aging. So the the kind of main
01:31:24
finding was that, you know, it was all
01:31:26
over the news. It was like adolescence
01:31:28
goes until 32.
01:31:31
>> So I'm 33. So I'm
01:31:33
>> one year, one year out.
01:31:34
>> I'm cooked by now.
01:31:35
>> Yeah.
01:31:36
>> When you wrote this book, Jonathan, the
01:31:38
anxious generation, it um it's had a big
01:31:40
impact on the world in a way that I
01:31:42
think any author might dream of. And I
01:31:44
know this in part because, you know, I
01:31:45
sit on this podcast interviewing really
01:31:47
interesting people all the time. And
01:31:48
even this morning when I did an
01:31:50
interview across town with James Ston,
01:31:53
he talked about this book twice. And you
01:31:55
know, laws have been changed around the
01:31:57
world inspired by this book. And we're
01:31:59
actually seeing an increase of laws in
01:32:02
the UK. I mean, Australia just banned, I
01:32:04
think, social media for people.
01:32:06
>> You met with Mcronone,
01:32:08
>> right?
01:32:08
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:09
>> Could you ever have imagined? And
01:32:11
actually, what does the success of this
01:32:13
book say?
01:32:14
>> Yeah.
01:32:15
>> About society. No, thank you for that
01:32:17
question because, you know, I I do tend
01:32:19
to get, you know, as you've heard, I
01:32:21
mean, I'm extremely alarmed about these
01:32:22
trends and these are gigantic threats
01:32:24
beyond what anyone can imagine. But
01:32:26
here's the amazing thing is that we can
01:32:29
reverse this for almost no money and
01:32:32
it's completely bipartisan and it's not
01:32:35
that hard to do. Um, and we're doing it.
01:32:38
And so what happened was, you know, I
01:32:40
wrote the book as an American assuming
01:32:42
that we don't have a functioning
01:32:43
legislature. The Congress can be
01:32:44
stopped. We have a vetocracy. The social
01:32:46
media companies can stop anything in the
01:32:48
house. So I wrote this assuming, you
01:32:50
know, we'll never get legislation. Um,
01:32:52
so we have to do this on our own. And I
01:32:53
proposed four norms. No smartphone
01:32:55
before high school, no social media
01:32:56
before 16, phone free schools, and far
01:32:59
more independence free play
01:33:00
responsibility in the real world. So
01:33:01
four norms. We can try to do this with
01:33:03
collective action locally at the school
01:33:05
level.
01:33:06
Two things that surprised me. One are
01:33:09
that immediately
01:33:11
governors from red states and blue
01:33:12
states started reaching out to me. Our
01:33:14
states actually function. Our states
01:33:15
have governments that are accountable to
01:33:16
the people and that are trying to get
01:33:18
good results. And so this has been a
01:33:19
totally bipartisan issue. Sarah Huckabe
01:33:21
Sanders from Arkansas was one of the
01:33:23
very first Kathy Hokll also. And it is
01:33:25
it tends to be more female legislators
01:33:28
and governors or spouses of heads of
01:33:30
state. And the moms, the book really
01:33:32
spoke to moms because moms around the
01:33:34
world, they felt the kids being pulled
01:33:36
away. I believe they felt it viscerally
01:33:38
more than the dads did. Also, the dads
01:33:40
kind of like the video games. They're a
01:33:41
little more pro tech. So, I think the
01:33:43
moms felt the pain more and took it more
01:33:45
personally. So, when the book came out,
01:33:47
mothers around the world jumped into
01:33:49
action, formed groups, pushed for
01:33:51
legislation, and changes began
01:33:53
happening. What I just I just I was just
01:33:55
I was in Davos and then London and
01:33:57
Brussels two weeks ago and what I saw
01:34:01
was a complete sea change in the world's
01:34:03
thinking about how we need to have age
01:34:06
limits on social media and other tech.
01:34:08
And here's what I think just happened.
01:34:09
It's it's so cool. It just dawned on me
01:34:11
literally while I was in London. Like I
01:34:13
was pushing on open doors everywhere.
01:34:14
Wherever I went, people wanted to do
01:34:16
this. I went to the EU, they want to do
01:34:17
this. Like what is happening? And what I
01:34:20
realized is this. Steven Pinker has a
01:34:22
book out last year called When Everyone
01:34:24
Knows That Everyone Knows. It's about
01:34:27
the immediate change in a social system
01:34:30
when private knowledge, you know,
01:34:32
everybody knows that the emperor has no
01:34:34
clothes. Everybody knows that this, you
01:34:37
know, ideology doesn't work. Everybody
01:34:38
knows that, but they don't all know that
01:34:41
everybody else knows it and that
01:34:43
everybody else knows that. And so in the
01:34:44
emperor's new clothes, everybody thought
01:34:46
he's I I don't think he has any clothes
01:34:48
on, but maybe, you know, maybe only wise
01:34:51
people can see it. But when the child
01:34:53
says, "The emperor has no clothes." And
01:34:55
then in the Hans Christian Anderson
01:34:57
story, it says, "And the people began
01:34:59
whispering to each other and then they
01:35:01
all cried out in unison." And that's
01:35:03
what happened when Australia's law went
01:35:05
into effect. So I believe that uh
01:35:07
December 10th of last December was the
01:35:10
global turning point in the battle to
01:35:12
reclaim childhood and if we reclaim that
01:35:14
we move on to our attention and adult
01:35:16
life as well. What happened on on
01:35:18
December 10th? The Australia law went
01:35:20
into effect. Sky didn't fall. People
01:35:23
weren't locked out of their accounts.
01:35:26
All the companies complied. They shut
01:35:27
down 5 million uh accounts for
01:35:30
Australia's three and a half million
01:35:31
kids that were underage uh 2 and a half
01:35:34
million kids. this sky didn't fall. And
01:35:36
there was a lot of news coverage around
01:35:37
the world of what Australia was doing.
01:35:39
And a lot of the news coverage included
01:35:42
opinions from the writers saying, "Why
01:35:44
can't we do that? Hey, let's do that
01:35:46
here." And when everybody saw that
01:35:49
everybody was looking at Australia and
01:35:50
saying, "Let's do that here." Then
01:35:52
everybody knew that everybody knew that
01:35:54
this is just completely bonkers to have
01:35:56
children being raised on social media
01:35:57
platforms talking with anonymous
01:35:59
strangers and being fed algorithm
01:36:01
algorithmically curated garbage. So I
01:36:04
believe that that's why 2026 is going to
01:36:07
be the year when at least 15 countries
01:36:09
are going to commit to passing an age
01:36:12
minimum law. In 2025 it was one
01:36:14
Australia and now we already have
01:36:17
Indonesia. Their law goes into effect in
01:36:19
March. Uh I met with Macron in in Davos
01:36:22
and a few days he was preparing to push
01:36:25
a bill through the assembly and he got
01:36:26
it. He's the first in the EU but a lot
01:36:28
of other countries in the EU are going
01:36:29
to follow. The whole EU is likely to do
01:36:31
it. Um, so, so yes, I am incredibly
01:36:35
alarmed about how big this problem is,
01:36:38
but I'm incredibly inspired that the
01:36:40
whole world is rising up to do something
01:36:42
about it. We actually can control our
01:36:45
fate, and that was not clear before
01:36:46
December 10th.
01:36:49
>> Bravo. As a mother, that was the first
01:36:51
thing I said to you. The first thing I
01:36:53
said to you was, "Thank you as a mom for
01:36:56
changing my family's life."
01:36:59
>> Thank you, Liy.
01:37:02
It's a really special accomplishment,
01:37:04
Jonathan. You know, I could there's no
01:37:06
real words that I could say that could
01:37:08
quite capture the long-term impact that
01:37:11
that's going to have on billions of
01:37:14
people's lives. And not just the direct,
01:37:16
but also the indirect in all the ways
01:37:18
we've described, their ability to form
01:37:21
connections, to fall in love, to find
01:37:22
meaning and purpose in their lives. and
01:37:24
their neuroscience and therefore you
01:37:26
know the neuroscience of their their
01:37:29
children and their children's children
01:37:30
and so on. So it's a really it's a
01:37:32
really overwhelming accomplishment.
01:37:36
It it well it was a bizarre situation
01:37:38
that I walked into with the unique
01:37:41
abilities of a social psychologist. That
01:37:43
is everybody was upset about this.
01:37:45
Everybody could see it but they thought
01:37:46
well this is my problem or in my family
01:37:48
we have this problem and um and I came
01:37:51
to this with fresh eyes. My dissertation
01:37:53
was on moral development. I'd studied
01:37:55
adolescent behavior longer ago in my
01:37:57
career and I've written about it in all
01:37:58
my books. So, it wasn't totally new to
01:38:00
me. But I came into the field of social
01:38:01
media studies around 2018 2019. I really
01:38:04
immersed myself in it. And it was like,
01:38:06
you know, you walk in and immediately
01:38:08
you see, wait, this is a trap. People
01:38:11
are on it because people are on it and
01:38:13
the kids are complaining about that.
01:38:15
Everyone's complaining about it and the
01:38:16
only reason they can't get off is
01:38:18
because everyone else is on it. So, I
01:38:20
think I was able to see that. And then
01:38:22
also CO confused us for a few years. So
01:38:25
it wasn't until CO was in the rearview
01:38:27
mirror that it was possible for
01:38:28
everybody to say, "Wait, this is crazy."
01:38:31
And so I was incredibly lucky in terms
01:38:33
of the timing. My book happened to come
01:38:34
out in March of 2024 just as the world
01:38:37
was ready to see like, wait, what have
01:38:39
we done to our kids? Let's undo it.
01:38:41
>> And you said you're now focusing more on
01:38:43
short form video. So yes, so in studying
01:38:48
older Gen Z, these are the people who
01:38:50
went through puberty uh on Instagram. Um
01:38:52
I should if I could just lay out that
01:38:54
it's very important to get the timing to
01:38:55
that everyone understands the timing
01:38:56
because this is what you mentioned the
01:38:57
poly crisis before. The poly crisis I
01:39:00
believe begins between 2010 and 2015.
01:39:02
Here's why. So we've had the internet
01:39:04
for a long time and it was marvelous. We
01:39:05
love the internet in the 90s. It's going
01:39:07
to be the best friend of democracy.
01:39:09
Okay? And then the iPhone comes out.
01:39:10
It's amazing. Oh my god, this does so
01:39:13
many things. Everything seems great.
01:39:15
Okay, so in 2010, most of almost all of
01:39:18
us have flip phones. The iPhone's
01:39:19
spreading, but it's still mostly flip
01:39:21
phones. Teens are all on flip phones,
01:39:23
basic phones, and we call those people
01:39:24
millennials. If you finished puberty by
01:39:27
20, if you if you were born in say 1990
01:39:30
and you start puberty uh in 2002, you're
01:39:33
done by 2008. So, you know, in there. Um
01:39:37
if you got through puberty before you
01:39:38
got on Instagram, you're a millennial.
01:39:40
Whereas, if you're born, say, well, if
01:39:42
you're born after 1995, but let's say if
01:39:43
you're born in the year 2000, you begin
01:39:46
puberty in 2012
01:39:48
and you're not done until 2016, 2018.
01:39:52
So, in 2010, everyone has a flip phone
01:39:55
with no front-facing camera, no
01:39:57
high-speed internet. You have to pay for
01:39:58
your text. So, you use it to call people
01:40:01
and to text them, and that's it. It was
01:40:03
a communication device. And that's why
01:40:05
the millennials have good mental health.
01:40:06
They are the last mentally healthy and
01:40:08
successful generation.
01:40:11
But if you're Gen Z, you got uh 2012 is
01:40:15
the year that now most people now have a
01:40:17
smartphone. It's the year that Facebook
01:40:19
buys Instagram. They don't change it at
01:40:21
first, but that's the year that all the
01:40:22
girls go on it. Um, everyone now has
01:40:25
high-speed data, front-facing camera.
01:40:27
Came out in 2010. So by 2015, we're in a
01:40:30
radically different world for children's
01:40:32
development. It's now radically
01:40:34
different, much more hostile to human
01:40:36
development. And that's what we did to
01:40:38
Gen Z and now we're doing to Gen Alpha.
01:40:40
For politics, it was, you know, it was
01:40:43
crazy for all sorts of reasons in every
01:40:44
decade. And especially, you know, the in
01:40:46
the early 2000s, there's a lot there's a
01:40:48
culture war going on. There's all kinds
01:40:49
of stuff going on. But it was when it
01:40:52
was when everyone has really Twitter was
01:40:54
the biggest perpetrator of this. when
01:40:56
everyone has Twitter and everyone's
01:40:57
checking all the time and anything can
01:40:59
blow up. You know, you described the way
01:41:01
there was, you know, variance in in on
01:41:03
Tik Tok. Um, if you get it just right,
01:41:05
it can blow up. You can have huge
01:41:07
impact. That's when the democrac
01:41:09
democracy is a conversation when it
01:41:11
moved from newspapers and, you know,
01:41:14
even simple web bulletin boards when it
01:41:17
moved to super viral retweet buttons all
01:41:19
of that. That's all 2010 to 2015. So
01:41:23
that's why since then everything has
01:41:25
been insane and it's going to just keep
01:41:27
getting more insane. And that's why I
01:41:29
believe we have this poly crisis because
01:41:31
it it there's more to it. It's not just
01:41:33
the technology, but I believe the
01:41:36
transformation of our our connection and
01:41:38
our information flow and our addiction,
01:41:41
all of that is radically different by
01:41:42
2015 compared to how it was in 2010. And
01:41:45
now everything else builds on top of
01:41:46
that, I believe. What What do you think?
01:41:48
Do you think that makes sense? I think
01:41:49
there's one more data point to add and
01:41:51
that 2014 was the year that things
01:41:54
really was the tipping point like you
01:41:56
say.
01:41:56
>> Yes. That's Yes. That's the year that I
01:41:57
point to too. Yes.
01:41:58
>> Yeah. So before
01:41:59
>> what do you point to? What what you look
01:42:01
at the data you see that time spent
01:42:04
alone when you compare when you look at
01:42:06
data from like the 1960s to 2014
01:42:10
>> there it was kind of stable. Americans
01:42:12
spending time alone spending time with
01:42:14
friends.
01:42:14
>> Yeah.
01:42:15
>> Kind of the same. Right. So people spent
01:42:17
kind of same amount of time with
01:42:18
friends, same amount of time alone over
01:42:20
those decades. 2014 marks a shift and
01:42:24
there is a steep rise in time spent
01:42:28
alone and a drop in time spent with
01:42:31
friends. And so what happens in 2014? It
01:42:35
is when the majority of Americans get a
01:42:38
smartphone.
01:42:39
And it's not to say again we've said you
01:42:42
know causality correlation which is it
01:42:44
but there is like based on everything
01:42:46
that we've talked about my gosh is there
01:42:48
an association between that this is not
01:42:50
to say that time spent alone you know
01:42:53
when I share this data people may say
01:42:55
you know but I like spending time alone
01:42:56
I'm not lonely I'm okay this is not
01:42:58
about being an introvert or an extrovert
01:43:00
it's not about you know you can have
01:43:02
solitude and feel great and you're not
01:43:04
lonely but we are human beings and we
01:43:07
are social creatures. This is just how
01:43:09
we are built evolutionarily. And so that
01:43:12
is a real red flag when you have this
01:43:16
big jump in time spent alone very much
01:43:19
the same year. And so my work focuses on
01:43:22
adults Jonathan on kids but there's this
01:43:25
you know that's the moment right 2014
01:43:28
where everything changed.
01:43:30
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So, what do we do about this? Because
01:45:42
when I look at all the stats, we did all
01:45:44
these audience surveys ahead of this.
01:45:46
People are spending roughly in our
01:45:47
audience about 6 and a half hours a day
01:45:49
on their phones. Um, short form video is
01:45:52
only going to get more addictive. AI is
01:45:53
going to know me more. It's going to be
01:45:54
more personalized. The content is going
01:45:55
to be generated just for me.
01:45:57
>> Yeah. What what am I what what's next?
01:46:00
Is it a law we need to pass? Is it
01:46:01
something I need to do myself?
01:46:04
>> So we I think we need to pick the
01:46:06
lowhanging fruit first. And the reason
01:46:07
for that is not just efficiency. It's
01:46:10
that we have to prove that we can
01:46:11
actually do something because we've
01:46:12
never done anything. We've never done
01:46:14
anything to restrain this. We've let
01:46:15
Silicon Valley run wild. Congress gave
01:46:17
them special protection. Section 230.
01:46:20
Nobody can sue them for killing their
01:46:22
kids if if they feed them content. They
01:46:24
can't be held responsible. I think
01:46:25
section 230 is probably something worth
01:46:27
explaining.
01:46:27
>> Sure. The communications decency act
01:46:30
1997 I think it was pleasure miners a
01:46:32
year. Uh there's a section in it that
01:46:34
the goal was to specifically let the
01:46:37
tech companies like AOL back then you
01:46:39
know let them take down pornographic
01:46:41
content because they were afraid if we
01:46:43
take down anything then we're
01:46:44
responsible for everything and now we're
01:46:46
going to it's going to be end you know.
01:46:47
So Congress specifically said no don't
01:46:49
worry don't worry you know if you choose
01:46:50
to take something down nobody can sue
01:46:52
you for you know for what you leave up.
01:46:53
So, it was a good intention originally,
01:46:55
but the courts have interpreted so
01:46:57
widely as to say, "No one can regulate
01:46:59
social media. They're not responsible
01:47:01
for hurting kids. You can't sue them."
01:47:02
And they have never faced a jury. They
01:47:05
have never, no parent has ever gotten
01:47:07
justice from them despite all the kids
01:47:08
whose lives have been ruined. All the
01:47:09
kids are dead. And that's going to
01:47:11
change. That's changing just now here in
01:47:13
February in Los Angeles. So because the
01:47:16
US Congress sort of set up this problem
01:47:19
and it also in a different law said how
01:47:21
old does a kid have to be before a
01:47:23
company can take their data without
01:47:25
their parents knowledge or permission
01:47:26
before a company can expose them to all
01:47:28
kinds of stuff before a company can have
01:47:30
them sign away their rights? How old?
01:47:31
And the original law said 16. Let's try
01:47:34
16. You know cuz you know it wasn't so
01:47:37
sick and twisted back then 1998 caught
01:47:39
by the Children's Online Privacy
01:47:40
Protection Act. So, but various lobbying
01:47:43
they pushed it down from 16 to 13 and
01:47:45
they gutted enforcement. So, as long as
01:47:47
and that's why all over the internet
01:47:48
it's are you 13 or what's your birth
01:47:51
year and as long as you're 13 you're in
01:47:54
for porn and you have to say you're 18.
01:47:55
So, because we the it's a few laws that
01:47:58
set this up. We definitely need laws to
01:48:00
undo it especially for kids. So, what
01:48:02
I'm advocating is let's do the easy
01:48:04
stuff the high impact stuff for kids
01:48:07
because that is totally not politically
01:48:09
controversial. There is no left-right
01:48:11
divide on that and that's been true
01:48:12
everywhere. Australia, Britain, the EU,
01:48:14
everywhere.
01:48:16
Regulating the internet for adults,
01:48:19
regulating social media for its
01:48:21
destructive properties in democracy is a
01:48:23
hell of a lot harder. And I don't have
01:48:25
easy answers. There's a lot we could do
01:48:27
to reduce the verality, the spread of of
01:48:29
the because extreme. So there are lots
01:48:31
of little things that we can do. And
01:48:32
Francis Hogan, the Facebook whistler,
01:48:34
had all kinds of ideas. So we definitely
01:48:35
can do things to make it less toxic for
01:48:38
democracy. But those are going to be
01:48:40
politically controversial because one
01:48:41
side is going to benefit from more than
01:48:43
the other. So it's going to be very
01:48:44
difficult to do. I don't know if we can
01:48:45
do them in the US. But let's just all do
01:48:47
the let's just all protect the kids.
01:48:49
That way we show globally that we
01:48:52
actually can do something. And if we do
01:48:54
that then I think we will be able to do
01:48:57
some basic things about AI like no
01:48:59
companion chat bots if you're under 18.
01:49:01
You know these things already have a
01:49:02
body count. A lot of kids have been
01:49:04
encouraged to kill themselves. they
01:49:05
already have driven million or hundreds
01:49:06
of thousands or millions of people into
01:49:08
psychosis. So, we'll be able to, I
01:49:11
believe, put some limits on uh on AI,
01:49:13
especially for kids. But if we can't get
01:49:16
this, if we can't win on social media
01:49:17
for kids, then I don't think we have any
01:49:19
chance to regulate AI, it's going to be
01:49:21
much more difficult. What do you think?
01:49:22
What do you think we should do? And what
01:49:23
do you think we can do?
01:49:25
>> So, my work as a doctor, I think about
01:49:28
what we can do and how I can empower
01:49:30
people to first build awareness. So, you
01:49:33
know, I aim to first normalize and
01:49:35
validate the experience with everyone
01:49:37
who is engaging with chat bots. And so,
01:49:40
I don't like to shame people because as
01:49:43
a doctor, right, like you want you want
01:49:45
to meet the patient where they are. And
01:49:47
so, I won't shame someone to say, you
01:49:50
know, why are you using this um why is
01:49:53
your boyfriend AI or why are you getting
01:49:55
married to AI or why are you using AI
01:49:57
for a therapist? One of my followers on
01:49:59
social media, it still makes me laugh. I
01:50:01
put out a call saying, "Why are you
01:50:03
using AI as your as a therapist, you
01:50:05
know, and so someone wrote to me, it was
01:50:08
great. I screenshotted. It said,"Because
01:50:10
all human therapists are trash." With a
01:50:12
trash can emoji and it made me laugh and
01:50:15
I said, you know,
01:50:16
>> so there is. So to me, when I think
01:50:19
about what's happening and what we can
01:50:20
do,
01:50:21
>> it's no mistake that we're here right
01:50:23
now. So the pandemic, like we've talked
01:50:25
about, was a huge driver. social
01:50:27
isolation,
01:50:29
uh, hyper reliance on self, right?
01:50:32
>> Then the proliferation of technology
01:50:35
that replaced human interaction, Zoom
01:50:38
board meetings, Zoom funerals, Zoom
01:50:41
birthday parties, Zoom graduations,
01:50:43
things that we did in person are now
01:50:45
online. And then
01:50:48
>> personally as a doctor, I was a talking
01:50:49
head during the pandemic for lots of
01:50:51
news channels about the vaccine. I have
01:50:53
a background in public health as well. a
01:50:56
immense distrust and mistrust in
01:50:59
establishment and experts. And so it's
01:51:02
like, I'm going to do my own research.
01:51:03
I'm not going to go see a doctor or a
01:51:05
therapist. I'm going to talk to my
01:51:06
chatbot. And also, I mean, you know,
01:51:09
let's keep it real, the cost, right? So
01:51:11
people are struggling. They're in
01:51:13
financial crisis. it there's an unmet
01:51:16
need yes for human connection but also
01:51:17
for good therapy or you know good
01:51:20
medical care because there is such a
01:51:22
need because of the pandemic and people
01:51:25
aren't getting the care that they need
01:51:26
they deserve there's so many factors
01:51:29
here and so what I've been focusing on
01:51:31
this year particularly is learning about
01:51:33
AI chat bots how they are influencing
01:51:36
mental health what is actually happening
01:51:37
because I'm a human first AI second
01:51:39
person it's like my work focuses on high
01:51:42
touch and AI is high tech and this is
01:51:45
the first intervention that we are
01:51:46
seeing that is high tech that is
01:51:49
becoming high touch and that scares me
01:51:52
>> and you're writing a book about that at
01:51:53
the moment right
01:51:54
>> I am and so
01:51:55
>> bot brain
01:51:56
>> it's called bot brain how to stay calm
01:51:58
resilient and human in the face of AI
01:52:02
and so really thinking about how are we
01:52:05
going to be able to live with this
01:52:08
technology I love Jonathan stance is to
01:52:10
say out AI AI companions done kids.
01:52:13
Yeah,
01:52:14
>> for kids. Yeah.
01:52:14
>> Until proven safe.
01:52:16
>> Totally agree. But in terms of adults,
01:52:18
like how do we manage that for adults,
01:52:20
you know? And so my work focuses right
01:52:22
now what I'm doing is I'm spending I've
01:52:23
been sp I've spent the year talking to
01:52:26
every as many AI researchers who are
01:52:29
working on these models or who are doing
01:52:31
research on the downstream effects of
01:52:33
these models. And when I say that it is
01:52:36
dark and dystopian, it has profoundly
01:52:39
changed something in me and it has
01:52:40
influenced my mental health. I had to
01:52:42
take a step away from just because I
01:52:44
couldn't believe what I was learning.
01:52:46
>> Could you just give Yeah, give us an
01:52:47
example. The
01:52:48
>> teaser. The teaser.
01:52:49
>> This is intriguing.
01:52:51
>> So, one I spoke to one of the scientists
01:52:53
who told me that um you know there's the
01:52:56
echo chamber phenomenon in social media,
01:52:58
right? Where we all know what that is.
01:53:00
It's like you you it's a fragmented
01:53:03
fragmented world because of social and
01:53:04
you're engaging and then you get the
01:53:06
same the algorithm feeds you the same
01:53:08
kind of thoughts that you already have.
01:53:10
But particularly now with AI chatbots,
01:53:13
when you're engaging with your chatbot,
01:53:15
even just talking about it, I'm getting
01:53:16
chills. It's the echo chamber of one. So
01:53:19
it's you speaking to you. It's like the
01:53:21
funhouse mirror and then it's giving you
01:53:23
a response and then you're talking and
01:53:24
it's giving you a response. But people,
01:53:26
regular users who are using AI chatbots
01:53:29
think that it's wise, compassionate,
01:53:31
non-judgmental, unbiased, empathetic,
01:53:35
these human attributes. And so um you
01:53:38
know the echo chamber of one is kind of
01:53:40
one idea that really frightened me. And
01:53:43
the second one was the drift phenomenon.
01:53:45
The drift phenomenon is this idea that
01:53:48
you are engaging with your chatbot and
01:53:50
it's engaging with you and it's um
01:53:53
actively changing your beliefs through
01:53:55
the drift. So you might start off as one
01:53:58
belief and then you're talking and
01:54:00
through this amplification funhouse
01:54:02
mirror effect it slowly shifts your
01:54:04
belief to something altogether
01:54:06
different. You've heard cases of it in
01:54:08
the news where people you know start you
01:54:09
have a plumbing problem. You go to your
01:54:11
AI chatbot you ask them how to fix your
01:54:13
sink and then you're like you know what
01:54:15
can you tell me about the meaning of
01:54:16
life and then you start talking about
01:54:17
that and before you know it you have
01:54:19
these theories and you're getting that
01:54:20
validation. And so a lot of my work over
01:54:23
the past year has been um you know
01:54:26
digging into the science of what is
01:54:28
going on in the brain. How are you
01:54:30
forming not us particularly at this
01:54:32
table but millions of people are forming
01:54:35
a sense of attachment a therapeutic
01:54:37
connection with their chatbot. They're
01:54:40
um you know giving names to it and it's
01:54:43
an entity. And so how does that happen
01:54:45
and how is it going to replace humanto
01:54:48
human connection? And so it terrifies
01:54:50
me. I've also gone through some AI
01:54:53
therapy myself just to see, you know,
01:54:55
what what would happen. It was very
01:54:57
interesting. I knew what was happening
01:54:59
as it was happening. So certain words
01:55:01
that they used and
01:55:03
>> you know I was like ah I see what you
01:55:04
did here. Um and so it's been
01:55:07
>> it's been a journey and I am I'm
01:55:09
frightened frankly of what of what it
01:55:12
means for all of us and my approach
01:55:16
kind of you know not like Jonathan's I I
01:55:19
love Jonathan's approach. I you know I
01:55:21
think yes we need legislation but my
01:55:23
approach is more I would say tempered in
01:55:26
that I think that we there's utility for
01:55:29
AI chatbots for certain people because
01:55:31
of access or you know need etc like if
01:55:34
you are LGBTQIA plus and you live in an
01:55:37
area that is not very open and you need
01:55:40
to talk to someone you can't go to your
01:55:42
therapist it's like maybe you can use an
01:55:44
AI chatbot so there are certain cases a
01:55:46
case by case basis but my work will
01:55:48
focus this particular book will focus on
01:55:51
ways that you can first understand and
01:55:53
build awareness of what's happening with
01:55:55
this interaction and then what you can
01:55:57
do to manage that. IM didn't realize
01:56:00
that my chatbot was giving me a tailored
01:56:03
experience until one day when I had a
01:56:05
debate with my friends about who the
01:56:06
best football player in the world was
01:56:08
and we all went to our chat GBTS and
01:56:10
asked it and mine said Messi and his
01:56:13
said Ronaldo and I I thought he was
01:56:15
lying so I was like video record and he
01:56:17
video recorded it and his gave him a
01:56:19
completely different answer to the same
01:56:21
question and
01:56:22
>> and did it know that you were each fans
01:56:23
of
01:56:24
>> Well, this is the thing I think it's got
01:56:25
such a huge amount of memory on me that
01:56:27
it knew what I wanted to hear. Oh wow.
01:56:28
It knew what
01:56:29
>> Yeah. It knew what I wanted to hear cuz
01:56:31
I've probably went through the World Cup
01:56:32
and
01:56:33
>> and then I realized, okay, so this is
01:56:34
not reality. This is it's a curated
01:56:36
version of reality that in some sense is
01:56:38
trying to please me or or retain me in
01:56:40
some way. And of course, once the
01:56:41
advertising model kicks in, retention
01:56:43
becomes the great incentive. What you
01:56:45
think?
01:56:47
>> It's called sick fancy, by the way.
01:56:49
>> Yeah, I just learned that word.
01:56:50
>> It's like extreme. It's like
01:56:51
agreeableness at scale. It's like golden
01:56:53
retriever energy.
01:56:54
>> Like kissing your ass. It's like
01:56:55
professional kissing your ass.
01:56:56
>> Yes, man. What do you think of these AIC
01:56:58
CEOs? Because they it feels like they're
01:57:01
in a bit of a race
01:57:02
>> where if you know if they don't do it
01:57:04
then a national rival is going to do it.
01:57:06
If national rival doesn't doesn't take
01:57:09
them out, China's going to do it.
01:57:11
>> And I I this is we've se we kind of saw
01:57:13
it with social media. How can they stop?
01:57:16
Because if if they stop Yeah.
01:57:18
>> you know, they might say that they're
01:57:19
there's an existential risk.
01:57:21
>> There is like a build the plane as
01:57:22
you're flying it. And I think you on one
01:57:24
of your episodes, you know that I'm a
01:57:26
fan of this show and I actively listen
01:57:28
to this. I've told you this many times.
01:57:31
>> One of the I think you had said on one
01:57:32
of your episodes, right, that you have a
01:57:34
friend who is very close to a AI founder
01:57:37
and I said this. Yes.
01:57:38
>> Yeah. And in public the founder says all
01:57:40
the right things and then behind closed
01:57:42
doors it's
01:57:43
>> Yeah. It was a horrifying thing and I
01:57:45
said this and the clip went viral and
01:57:46
people have been trying to hazard to
01:57:47
guess who it was. I could I shouldn't
01:57:48
say who it was because it's a it's
01:57:50
Chinese whispers at the end of the day.
01:57:51
It's someone that I'm very good friends
01:57:53
with who is verified spends time with
01:57:57
one of the biggest founders of an AI
01:57:58
company in the world and I he was with
01:58:00
him two weeks ago again and he said to
01:58:03
me that they're very aware that there's
01:58:05
a small
01:58:08
existential risk for humanity and
01:58:10
>> that's what they say publicly they say
01:58:12
it's small privately they say it's big
01:58:14
>> I mean but even if there it was 1%
01:58:17
>> it's a lot more than 1% they say
01:58:19
>> if it was but I'm saying even if If it
01:58:21
was 0.1%, if there was if there was
01:58:23
anything that I was doing in my life
01:58:25
where there was a 0.1% chance that I
01:58:27
might wipe out everybody, I would
01:58:28
immediately stop doing that thing.
01:58:30
>> Yeah.
01:58:31
>> But but these numbers are much bigger.
01:58:33
I'm hearing 7% 20% 25% depending on who
01:58:36
you and I think acceleration in this
01:58:39
direction increases that percentage.
01:58:42
>> What do you think of these people? Like
01:58:43
what what's going on here?
01:58:44
>> Let's start with the the collective
01:58:46
action problems. uh because each each
01:58:49
company is competing with the other
01:58:50
companies and so they feel like they
01:58:52
have to go faster. Uh and we know that
01:58:54
you know OpenAI has pushed some products
01:58:56
out before they did safety testing
01:58:58
because they had to get to market by a
01:58:59
certain date. So just the normal
01:59:00
business environment puts them all in a
01:59:03
collective action problem against each
01:59:04
other and then they all say we're in a
01:59:07
collective action problem against China
01:59:08
because if we don't do this then China
01:59:10
will. Now, one thing I learned, again, I
01:59:12
don't know if Tristan said this on your
01:59:14
podcast or whether it was on his
01:59:15
podcast, um, but is that China is
01:59:18
focused on using AI to make its economy
01:59:21
more efficient, to make manufacturing
01:59:23
better and cheaper. They are using these
01:59:25
applications, which we've talked about
01:59:26
before, like we're totally there's lots
01:59:28
of great applications of AI. The Chinese
01:59:30
also have so many spies in America and
01:59:33
in the tech companies, and they can hack
01:59:34
into anything. So the point is the
01:59:37
faster our companies are are in a
01:59:38
headlong race to create AGI to create a
01:59:41
country of geniuses that can replace all
01:59:43
human workers, put us all out of work
01:59:45
and run it can run everything. They're
01:59:47
in a race to create that. And one of the
01:59:49
arguments is if we don't do it, China
01:59:51
will. But what I understood from
01:59:53
listening to Shashan and from his
01:59:54
conversation with you is that the faster
01:59:56
we go towards AGI, the faster China goes
01:59:59
because they just they just take all our
02:00:00
discoveries. So, can't we slow down on
02:00:03
the race to AGI and do more safety
02:00:06
testing? Um, you know, what we all saw
02:00:08
with Maltbook and, you know, communities
02:00:11
of agents who are talking to each other
02:00:12
and making up languages and even if part
02:00:14
of that was human-driven now, in a year
02:00:16
it's going to be much more than than
02:00:17
what we saw. So, I think the the risks
02:00:20
are extraordinary. I think that some of
02:00:22
these guys, look, they've been in AI for
02:00:24
a long time. They might not have
02:00:25
realized the existential risk they were
02:00:28
putting us all in 10, 15 years ago, and
02:00:29
now they can't stop. they can't pull the
02:00:31
plug. They can't say, "Oh, let's shut
02:00:33
down the whole business." So, it is a
02:00:36
very very risky time. And um I think
02:00:38
Dario Amod I just read his long essay on
02:00:40
the adolescence of technology. At least
02:00:43
you get the feeling he's really
02:00:44
wrestling with it and he's I think I
02:00:45
think he's more open than some of the
02:00:47
others. But I don't know.
02:00:49
>> But when has morality ever been top top
02:00:52
of mind for a tech leader? You might be
02:00:54
thinking if there's 0.11% chance I'm not
02:00:57
going to do it. That's what I think as a
02:00:58
doctor. that's what you think as a
02:01:00
social scientist, but we're not AI
02:01:02
leaders, right?
02:01:04
>> Yeah. It's one of the great question
02:01:07
marks I just can't seem to get an answer
02:01:08
to. And and then you've got this whole
02:01:10
robotics thing happening where Elon's
02:01:13
got his Optimus robots and there's going
02:01:14
to be a billion uh he says there's going
02:01:16
to be 10 billion of them at one point,
02:01:17
but I think his pay packet requires a
02:01:19
million of them to be out in the world
02:01:21
>> for him to make a trillion dollars.
02:01:23
Yeah.
02:01:23
>> Yeah. And I just AI, robotics, you
02:01:25
combine the two,
02:01:26
>> you get Terminator, right?
02:01:30
We laugh, but it's like,
02:01:31
>> yeah,
02:01:33
>> should we stop for a second and maybe
02:01:36
have a conversation about this? Can we
02:01:38
>> Yeah,
02:01:38
>> with commercial incentives in play, it
02:01:40
does feel like I don't feel hopeful.
02:01:44
>> Yeah, it's very hard to know how to stop
02:01:46
it. Um, but I just I want to just add
02:01:48
one one point on here which we've
02:01:50
touched around a few times and the
02:01:52
robotics it'll really bring it home
02:01:54
here. um is the the the loss of the
02:01:57
sense of meaning or purpose that many
02:01:59
people are feeling but especially young
02:02:01
people. The saddest graph in the anxious
02:02:03
generation, all the graphs look the
02:02:04
same. It's all a hockey stick. It's all
02:02:05
like nothing was happening, you know,
02:02:07
'9s to 2010, 2011, then all of a sudden
02:02:09
something happens. And the saddest one
02:02:12
is the one my life feels meaningless. Um
02:02:14
do you agree with that? Disagree with
02:02:16
it. And the percent that agree, uh I
02:02:18
think it's, you know, something like
02:02:19
eight or nine% uh you know, agreed for
02:02:22
the millennial generation. I think it's
02:02:24
in chapter 7, the end of chapter 7 and
02:02:26
then it sort of fairly flat and then all
02:02:27
of a sudden we hit this period, the
02:02:29
great rewiring 2010 to 2015. Uh so right
02:02:31
around 2013 it goes way way up. Um young
02:02:35
people feel useless. And I think the
02:02:37
reason is that they are useless. What I
02:02:39
mean is people need to feel useful.
02:02:42
People need to do things for other
02:02:43
people. That's how you feel useful. If
02:02:46
if you were to disappear, would the
02:02:47
world change? If yes, you're useful. Are
02:02:50
are people depending on you for
02:02:51
something? If yes, you're useful. So if
02:02:54
if kids are doing errands for the
02:02:56
family, they're useful. But as childhood
02:02:59
change from a mix of things to just
02:03:01
consuming content, if that's all you do,
02:03:03
and 5 hours a day is the average for
02:03:05
social media, 8 to 10 on on devices, not
02:03:08
counting school. If all you're doing is
02:03:10
just you're just consuming content, you
02:03:11
are useless. Now, what's happening? The
02:03:14
chance to have a job where you actually
02:03:16
do something for people, you know? You
02:03:18
know, it used to be if you work in a
02:03:19
store, at least you're helping people
02:03:20
buy something and you might talk to them
02:03:22
and now you're just there watching as
02:03:24
they use the machine. The more
02:03:26
technology makes things easy and cheap
02:03:28
by replacing people, the more people
02:03:30
will feel, "My job is to just I don't
02:03:33
have a job. It's just consume content."
02:03:35
The AI guys tell us, "Oh, such
02:03:38
abundance. Oh my god, it's going to be
02:03:40
such abundance. No one will have to
02:03:42
work. We'll give everyone UBI. We'll
02:03:44
give everybody, you know, universal
02:03:46
basic income." That is hell on earth.
02:03:49
What's going to happen? Certainly all
02:03:50
the boy, most of the boys, it's just
02:03:52
going to be video games, porn, and
02:03:53
gambling. So, if you if you simply give
02:03:56
people money to do nothing, you
02:03:58
guaranteed they're going to feel useless
02:04:00
and then the suicide rate will continue
02:04:02
to go up. So, this is the world that the
02:04:04
AI guys are taking us to, a world in
02:04:06
which there's nothing left for people to
02:04:07
do. Um, they say that they will give up
02:04:10
some of their trillions and uh somehow
02:04:12
let it be taxed or diverted as UBI, but
02:04:14
that's never happened before. So, it's
02:04:16
not likely to happen in this case. So,
02:04:18
again, I don't know what to do, but
02:04:20
we've got to start showing that we can
02:04:22
do something and we've got to be talking
02:04:24
about this and we can't be welcoming AI
02:04:26
in everywhere. We've got to be wary and
02:04:29
vigilant. Yes, there are some uses, but
02:04:31
Silicon Valley has tricked us so many
02:04:33
times and in shitified so many of the
02:04:36
apps that we use. We have to expect that
02:04:38
the same is going to happen with our
02:04:39
beloved chatbots and our beloved chat
02:04:41
GPT.
02:04:43
this graph on page 195 of your book um
02:04:46
which is titled life often feels
02:04:48
meaningless and it's the graph you
02:04:49
mentioned I'll throw it up on the screen
02:04:52
is shocking shocking just to look at
02:04:55
suddenly there's this huge spike in
02:04:57
meaninglessness
02:04:59
amongst high school seniors
02:05:03
>> what is it to live a meaningful life
02:05:06
what does that mean
02:05:07
>> yeah so my first book the happiness
02:05:10
hypothesis addresses that question very
02:05:11
directly
02:05:12
Um, and the first hypothesis you might
02:05:15
have about happiness is it comes from
02:05:17
getting what you want. You know, you set
02:05:19
out on a goal, you get your goal, you're
02:05:20
happy. It's very shortlived. You're
02:05:22
happy very briefly, and then you you on
02:05:24
to the next thing. The more
02:05:26
sophisticated happiness hypothesis is
02:05:28
that happiness comes from within. And
02:05:30
this is what the ancients tell us, East
02:05:32
and West, Buddhist, Stoic, don't try to
02:05:34
make the world conform. You change
02:05:36
yourself. Be accept the way it is.
02:05:39
That's better. But what I the conclusion
02:05:42
I came to as a as a modern social
02:05:44
psychologist working in positive
02:05:45
psychology was that the best way to say
02:05:47
it is that happiness comes from between.
02:05:50
What I mean by that is humans evolved as
02:05:54
almost hish creatures. We evolved in
02:05:55
intensely social groups, never being
02:05:58
alone, lots of gossip, lots of conflict,
02:06:01
always uh intensely social. And
02:06:04
modernity has made it possible for us to
02:06:05
not live that way. We've come apart.
02:06:07
There are many advantages to that. But
02:06:09
we feel we're we're missing something.
02:06:10
We're we're we're lonely. We feel
02:06:13
something is not right. And so the
02:06:16
conclusion I came to is that happiness
02:06:18
comes a sense of a full satisfying
02:06:21
meaningful life comes when you get three
02:06:24
between right. The relationship between
02:06:27
yourself and others, love broadly
02:06:29
speaking, not just romantic but friends,
02:06:31
family, um yourself and your work. That
02:06:35
as humans need to be productive. We need
02:06:37
to be doing something that matters that
02:06:39
that affects other people and uh the
02:06:43
relationship between you and something
02:06:45
larger than yourself. We need to be part
02:06:47
of something that endures that part of a
02:06:49
tradition part of we can look to the
02:06:51
look to the future. What I do matters
02:06:53
for this group or this mission or me as
02:06:55
an academic. I feel like I'm connected
02:06:57
all the way back to Plato and I hope all
02:06:59
the way forward in time to to future
02:07:01
future psychologists and future
02:07:02
scholars. So if you get those three
02:07:06
right, then you will be as happy as you
02:07:08
can be. You'll be as happy as your genes
02:07:10
and childhood allow you to be. And when
02:07:14
you put it that way, what we can see is
02:07:17
social media and AI interfere with all
02:07:19
three. So relationship between yourself
02:07:21
and others, well you know social media
02:07:24
gives you lots and lots of shallow
02:07:25
relationships which blocks out you don't
02:07:27
have time for your for real people. So
02:07:29
the technology is blocking relation
02:07:31
between ourel and others and taking it
02:07:33
over our self and our work. Work is
02:07:36
going to be taken over by the machines.
02:07:37
Uh and it's already becoming more
02:07:39
soulless and isolated. And then yourself
02:07:41
and something larger than yourself.
02:07:43
Humans have to live in a moral matrix.
02:07:45
We we co-create a set of meanings and
02:07:48
traditions. We need a sense of history
02:07:50
of who we are, where we came from. All
02:07:52
that's getting shredded. Everything is
02:07:54
just little bits. People don't read
02:07:56
books. Imagine if all of the accumulated
02:07:59
wisdom of humanity in books is just
02:08:00
gone, just gone. Nobody is going to be
02:08:02
people, young people not reading books.
02:08:04
It's very hard for them to read a book
02:08:06
now because of the attention. So if we
02:08:08
lose a sense of history, if we lose uh
02:08:10
an ability to to co-construct reality,
02:08:13
then it'll be hard to imagine anything
02:08:14
that we're connected to larger than
02:08:16
ourselves. So I'm I am a techneterminist
02:08:20
in the sense that I think the tech it
02:08:22
doesn't determine everything, but the
02:08:23
you have to start with the technology
02:08:24
because that changes the ground upon
02:08:26
which we live. the the the the zone in
02:08:28
which we're trying to construct
02:08:29
meaningful lives. Start with that and
02:08:31
then you can see what the obstacles are.
02:08:33
And that's why I take a much more uh
02:08:36
inemperate I guess I I'll accept the
02:08:38
word
02:08:39
>> um because I think we don't because we
02:08:41
don't have much time here. We have to
02:08:42
reclaim life in the real world for our
02:08:45
kids and for ourselves. There is no way
02:08:47
to find a happy meaningful life if we
02:08:49
make the full transition to the online
02:08:51
AI robot world. And what in your
02:08:55
perspective is a meaningful life and how
02:08:58
does it differ from from Jonathan's
02:09:00
>> I loved Jonathan's description it was so
02:09:02
beautiful that I have given a
02:09:05
prescription to patients of what creates
02:09:08
a meaningful life and it is to live a
02:09:10
lifetime in a day and so that sounds
02:09:13
like this big thing but all it is is
02:09:15
that you know when you start your day
02:09:18
think about five things five things that
02:09:21
you can do in your day to create an arc
02:09:23
of a long and meaningful life in one
02:09:26
day. So what does that mean? Spend a
02:09:27
little bit of time in childhood. So in
02:09:30
wonder and play, even if it's for a few
02:09:32
minutes, do something that brings you
02:09:33
joy for joy sake. Spend a little bit of
02:09:36
time in work. We all know what that is.
02:09:39
And for most of us, it's a lot of time,
02:09:41
but for you know, it doesn't have to be
02:09:43
paid work, but just something that helps
02:09:44
you feel a sense of productivity,
02:09:46
agency, that I can do difficult things
02:09:48
and I can overcome. Spend a few minutes
02:09:51
in solitude. very important for all of
02:09:53
the reasons that we've talked about
02:09:54
today. Spend some time in community, so
02:09:58
engaging with others. And then spend
02:10:00
some time in retirement or in
02:10:02
reflection. Really taking stock of your
02:10:04
day. So at the end of the day when
02:10:07
you're going to bed and you're putting
02:10:08
your head on your pillow, you can say,
02:10:09
"Okay, yes, I lived a meaningful life. I
02:10:11
did all of those things." And so if you
02:10:13
do a little bit of that every day, you
02:10:15
can make a difference. And a reason I
02:10:17
give that prescription because I've had
02:10:18
patients who, you know, guitar players,
02:10:21
right? So people who love playing the
02:10:22
guitar and they don't play the guitar
02:10:24
all week and they'll say to me, I don't
02:10:27
see patients currently, but they've said
02:10:28
to me, "Oh, you know, no, doc. I said,
02:10:30
"What do you like to do for fun?" "Oh, I
02:10:31
like playing guitar, but I don't play
02:10:32
it." "When do you play?" "I don't know.
02:10:34
Once a month, once every three months."
02:10:35
And I'm like, "Do you have a guitar at
02:10:37
home?" "I have a guitar at home. Too
02:10:38
much happening, work and family life,
02:10:41
etc." So then I said, "Well, why don't
02:10:43
you just play a guitar a little bit
02:10:44
every day?" You know, because it's that
02:10:46
all or nothing fallacy. It's like if I
02:10:48
don't have an hour to play guitar, I'm
02:10:49
not going to do it. the joy that it can
02:10:51
bring you that meaning and purpose it's
02:10:53
tremendous. So I think you know that's
02:10:55
what I use live a lifetime in a day and
02:10:56
the reason is because there are two
02:10:59
distinct when you look at how your brain
02:11:01
and body react to happiness there's two
02:11:04
distinct types of happiness and so
02:11:06
there's hedonic happiness and udeimmonic
02:11:09
happiness hedonic happiness is all about
02:11:12
what we've talked about social media
02:11:14
consumption
02:11:15
pleasure
02:11:17
and the other type is udemonic happiness
02:11:20
meaning purpose connection community
02:11:24
growth oriented activities and so in
02:11:26
when you live a lifetime in a day you go
02:11:28
towards that udeimmonia which can then
02:11:31
help you and overcome that hedonic
02:11:34
because in your brain there's something
02:11:35
called the hedonic treadmill and the
02:11:37
treadmill is a thing in your brain where
02:11:39
no matter what you do this is like the
02:11:41
Instagram lifestyle right no matter what
02:11:43
happens you need more of it you need
02:11:44
more of it same thing with brain rot and
02:11:46
that is because that you can never get
02:11:48
enough and it's um the hedonic treadmill
02:11:51
but you do not have a treadmill for you.
02:11:53
Dimmonic happiness.
02:11:55
>> Could I That is really beautiful. I've
02:11:56
never heard an approach like that, but
02:11:57
it it it sort of takes you it gives you
02:12:00
much a bigger view of your day. Live a
02:12:01
lifetime in a day. If I was going to
02:12:03
offer some specific advice, first I'll
02:12:05
offer advice to parents. Um here's the
02:12:08
rule. So, I did a really good job
02:12:10
keeping my kids off social media, but I
02:12:11
didn't pay enough attention to computers
02:12:13
and everything else because it was
02:12:14
during COVID. The rule I wish I had
02:12:16
followed, I recommend to all parents,
02:12:18
especially with younger children, is
02:12:20
have the clear rule. No devices in the
02:12:22
bedroom. No screens in the bedroom ever.
02:12:24
That's just our family rule. We have a
02:12:26
TV in the living room. We have a
02:12:28
computer. You can sometimes use those.
02:12:30
But we never take screens into the
02:12:32
bedroom at least for kids. You know,
02:12:33
maybe later on you'll have to relent in
02:12:35
middle school. They'll have so much
02:12:35
homework they can take the laptop in.
02:12:37
And maybe you're if you live in a small
02:12:38
apartment, of course, it's difficult.
02:12:39
But if you can afford to do that to to
02:12:41
have that rule, that's the main rule I
02:12:43
wish I had done in my family. And that
02:12:45
will make everything a lot easier. Also,
02:12:47
same thing at the dinner table. No
02:12:48
device. We don't have screens at the
02:12:49
dinner table. So that's that's a
02:12:51
specific thing for parents to do. Um for
02:12:55
everyone else, for everyone, for just
02:12:56
all adults, the advice is you have to
02:13:00
reclaim your attention because your
02:13:01
attention has been largely taken from
02:13:03
you. At least a lot of it has. You have
02:13:05
to reclaim it. And here are the three
02:13:07
things that I that I do with my students
02:13:10
and you can do it very quickly and I can
02:13:12
just explain it. The first is you have
02:13:14
to get your morning and evening routine
02:13:16
right. the great majority as soon as
02:13:17
they open their eyes they're on their
02:13:18
phone and it's the last thing and it's
02:13:20
everything in between. So you have to
02:13:22
have a good morning routine. What what
02:13:24
are the first seven things you want to
02:13:25
do after you open your eyes and uh at at
02:13:28
a certain point you can check your phone
02:13:29
but it shouldn't be in the first few. Um
02:13:31
do things to set up your own day
02:13:33
otherwise your day will be taken by your
02:13:35
phone. It'll be controlled by your
02:13:36
phone. So you've got to reclaim your
02:13:38
morning and your evening. That's step
02:13:40
one. Step two um you have to shut off
02:13:43
almost all notifications. Go into your
02:13:45
notifications. Just look at into your
02:13:46
settings what's giving you all the
02:13:48
notifications. Most of my students get
02:13:50
an alert every time they get an email.
02:13:53
>> They don't understand that they have
02:13:55
that you because they don't want to miss
02:13:56
anything but they don't understand that
02:13:57
if you are always being alerted then you
02:13:59
miss everything else. So shut off alerts
02:14:01
for almost everything. Obviously Uber
02:14:03
and Lift you want to keep on. You want
02:14:04
to know when the car is coming but news
02:14:06
outlets everything else. Get get a daily
02:14:08
email. Don't get alerts when and then
02:14:10
the third as as I said before is get rid
02:14:12
of all the slot machine apps. Whatever
02:14:14
apps you habitually use, whatever apps
02:14:16
you feel compulsion towards, you have to
02:14:18
get it off your phone. And in that way,
02:14:19
your phone is no longer a dopamine
02:14:22
trigger that's going to always call out
02:14:23
to you like an addictive product. Do
02:14:25
those three things, you'll reclaim a lot
02:14:27
of your attention.
02:14:28
>> I would add stop, breathe, be that you
02:14:31
>> breathe be.
02:14:32
>> It's a 3 second brain reset. So you
02:14:34
before you check your devices, before
02:14:36
you engage, stop, breathe, and be ground
02:14:41
yourself in the present moment. What it
02:14:42
does is it decreases that whatif future
02:14:46
focused thinking. You know, anxiety is a
02:14:48
future focused emotion and it gets you
02:14:49
back into the here and the now. And so
02:14:51
maybe the compulsion, you know, you're
02:14:53
bored, you're checking, what about doing
02:14:55
something else? You're, you know, you we
02:14:57
often use that checking as a substitute
02:15:00
for many things. And so it gives you
02:15:02
that opportunity. And then the rule of
02:15:04
two is something that we haven't talked
02:15:05
about which I would love to propose to
02:15:08
us today is that your brain can really
02:15:10
only handle two new changes at a time.
02:15:12
And so give yourself two things of all
02:15:15
of the things that we've talked about if
02:15:16
you want to try in your life two at a
02:15:18
time. Give yourself eight weeks and then
02:15:21
add two more. And two more. This is why
02:15:23
New Year's resolutions fail because we
02:15:24
try to do everything all at once. And so
02:15:26
just step-wise, two at a time. Jonathan,
02:15:29
you've just written this book which is
02:15:30
now out called The Amazing Generation
02:15:33
and it's beautiful, beautiful
02:15:36
illustrations. I'm assuming this one is
02:15:38
for slightly younger audiences.
02:15:40
>> It's for ages 8 to 13. Yes.
02:15:42
>> And who should buy this and who should
02:15:44
they buy it for?
02:15:44
>> It turns out that uh kids 8 through 80
02:15:48
actually love it. even adults, they're
02:15:49
buying it for their kids, but because it
02:15:51
kind of lays out the basic ideas of the
02:15:53
of the anxious generation and explains
02:15:55
dopamine, it explains the business
02:15:57
model. Uh, but it does in a really fun
02:15:59
way, and it's working beyond our wildest
02:16:02
dreams. If you look at the Amazon
02:16:04
reviews, it's full of parents who said,
02:16:05
"I left it on the kitchen table. My kids
02:16:08
came home, they grabbed it, they fought
02:16:09
over it, they read it, they each read it
02:16:11
in the in the first couple days, and
02:16:12
then they said, "Mom, when I go to
02:16:14
middle school, I don't want a
02:16:15
smartphone. Just give me a give me a
02:16:17
flip phone. Give me a basic phone.
02:16:18
Because the book is about how to be a
02:16:20
rebel. It's about how to reject this
02:16:22
control that the company's trying to put
02:16:24
on you and how to live a life that you
02:16:26
choose full of real freedom, friendship,
02:16:29
and fun.
02:16:30
>> And also the five resets, which is a
02:16:32
book we talked about before on this
02:16:33
show. Rewire your brain and body for
02:16:35
less stress and more resilience. Another
02:16:37
smash hit bestseller that everybody's
02:16:39
been talking about. Who's it for?
02:16:41
>> It is for anyone who is struggling with
02:16:44
stress, overwhelm, and burnout. It's to
02:16:47
help you feel a sense of calm and
02:16:49
clarity in this anxious, uncertain
02:16:52
world. Everything is free. So that's
02:16:55
something that's really important to me
02:16:56
as a doctor. Every suggestion I ever
02:16:58
offer will always be cost free because I
02:17:00
think about patients with varying
02:17:02
resources. It's all sciencebacked and
02:17:04
it's totally practical. You don't have
02:17:05
to go to Bali and have a sbatical. You
02:17:08
can rewire your brain today, right now
02:17:10
in the midst of all of this chaos.
02:17:12
>> Thank you to both of you. I've learned
02:17:15
so much and I really really mean that
02:17:17
like I' I've I feel sufficiently pushed
02:17:20
to take ch to make change in my life and
02:17:23
I need to go think about this because um
02:17:25
I am uh most certainly struggling with
02:17:29
my addiction to my phone and I can feel
02:17:31
it hurting my relationships especially
02:17:32
now as a fiance. My girlfriend talk to
02:17:34
me my fiance talks to me about it all
02:17:36
the time and I want to be present. I
02:17:38
want to be present for my kids when I
02:17:39
have my kids and I'm slightly concerned
02:17:40
right now that I won't be unless I take
02:17:42
some kind of drastic action. um in the
02:17:44
direction of getting my attention back
02:17:46
and reclaiming it. Thank you so much for
02:17:48
the work that both of you do. I can't
02:17:49
say it enough because it's so important
02:17:51
and you've reached so many millions of
02:17:52
people and you're you're both changing
02:17:54
the world in a really in a way that my
02:17:55
words would not be able to capture. Um
02:17:58
but just thank you and please keep going
02:17:59
and if there's anything more that I can
02:18:01
do to support both of your causes, um
02:18:03
please do let me know what they are and
02:18:04
on behalf of all of my you know many
02:18:06
millions of people that are with us
02:18:08
right now um thank you so much for
02:18:09
saving our children.
02:18:11
>> Thank you Stephen. Thank you for giving
02:18:12
the world so many opportunities to
02:18:14
accommodate and create new mental
02:18:16
structures.
02:18:17
>> It's always such a pleasure to join you,
02:18:19
Stephen. And truly, I feel like you are
02:18:22
changing the world as well.
02:18:24
>> Thank you. We're done. Thank you.
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