00:00:00
all this being said I wanted to ask you guys next how many people in real life blood
00:00:07
in their veins human beings zero I know where you're going with those how many people do you know that
00:00:14
spent their money on a Vision Pro
00:00:22
zero what is up people of the internet no it is not Marquez it is your typical
00:00:28
producer today host Roven and I'm joined by two lovely co-hosts Andrew and David and it is time
00:00:36
for another waveform bonus episode are you guys ready I am I'm ready to party the HVAC
00:00:43
is also broken in this room right now so we are wearing jackets it is very cold but we will do anything I'm so cold to
00:00:49
make a Way episode for you ° f single digits outside uh this table this metal
00:00:56
table is so cold my computer's not plugged in I think the it might die um
00:01:03
I'm jealous of you people washing the dishes because your hands are probably warm right now oh my gosh yeah if if we had a sink and some dirty dishes in here
00:01:09
right now like going at it I'd be so happy oh yeah um anywh who guys today I
00:01:15
want to talk about one of my favorite products favorite products do you want
00:01:20
to take a guess at what it is I think I know what it is we already know what it is you already know what it is wait you both already know what it is yeah
00:01:26
because you guys told us what the episode was did we really oh I don't I kind of know I helped collaborate a
00:01:34
couple well you know many of my favorite products like like books Palma Honda Moto compacto correct Diet Coke right so
00:01:42
this one fits perfectly in line with all three of those uhhuh apple Vision Pro right um because actually Apple Vision
00:01:49
Pro is not like any of those products at all it's really expensive doesn't do a whole lot um and yet I just think it
00:01:57
rules I just think it it really rules and so um for those of you that are not
00:02:03
Psychopaths like me uh you probably didn't know that Apple Vision Pro is going to turn one soon in early February
00:02:11
that will be uh man it feels like it's been out for longer really well I guess it got
00:02:16
announced 6 months before it came out and there was some testing so it's been talked about for over a year but like it
00:02:23
is officially old now that's true and it was teased and rumored for even longer
00:02:28
back when it was just like Apple working on ski goggles that you could play beatsaber on Mark um but yeah avolution
00:02:37
Pros a year old and I wanted to talk about it because I feel like it's in this sort of interesting place it hasn't
00:02:43
really been adopted but some people are full send on it you have crazy people like me who love this thing and can't
00:02:50
really Express why um yeah I mean it's like it's the most advanced technology
00:02:56
I've ever used even if it doesn't really have much of a purpose it's one of those things that like blew your mind when you use it and then I put it down and never
00:03:03
yearned for it ever again right no so this is a great way this is a great segue I want to hear before we dive in
00:03:10
how much have you guys used Vision Pro what have been your thoughts what are your favorite things what are your least favorite things let me know so I mean
00:03:18
the technology in general is just so interesting like it's fun to use your eyes to select things and the fact that
00:03:25
you can basically have your hands anywhere as long as the cameras can see them and the tapping gestures like all
00:03:31
that stuff's really great I love the spatial stuff I love the pin the spatial pinning it's so like it's so fine and it
00:03:39
doesn't like wiggle like a lot of the other VR headsets do um I did use it a
00:03:44
little bit more when they updated the Mac virtual display thing that you
00:03:50
can have with it how you can have it in ultrawide mode yeah I thought that was cool I still yearn for like many
00:03:57
displays because for some reason I I like multiple displays more than I like a single long display same same okay in
00:04:04
that case it's not some reason um yeah but I you know it's still a big heavy
00:04:10
thing on your face that makes my iPads but not the Apple iPad the face face red
00:04:18
marks on my face wait can I ask a quick question that hopefully won't derail us too much yeah you actually got to use it
00:04:23
at Apple campus when oh that's right compared to the demo that you got versus
00:04:29
when we got in here and you were actually using it were there any like major differences that struck you not really I mean in the demo situations
00:04:35
they do things that try to make your brain go wow so for example they did the
00:04:41
dinosaur demo in there which is where like a hole opens up in the wall and you can see into this Jurassic world and
00:04:47
then the T-Rex comes out and it's sort of this like crazy sense of scale thing which gave me the same feeling as the
00:04:54
first time I ever tried an HTC Vive because I did a demo at a Microsoft store called the Blue where you're on a
00:05:00
pirate ship underwater that had sink and then there's a whale that like swims
00:05:05
over near you and it makes your heart start racing that was back in like 2015 or something obviously but yeah they um
00:05:13
not really I would say uh it's more advanced now like they had less functionality back then uh and I think
00:05:21
especially with the stuff with the personas like being able to have multiple people in a room interacting on
00:05:26
the same thing is useful so I'm they updated it but it's still a little bit
00:05:31
far off from where it needs to be okay Andrew what about you I just think like how easy and natural it was to get in
00:05:39
the headset and just do what you wanted to do um VR is like this magical experience and I I call it one of the
00:05:45
things that like non- Tey people when you show it to them they're it's like the coolest thing they've ever seen like
00:05:52
we are all in this space and we see stuff like this and maybe we're a little jaded but like when I put my mom in a VR
00:05:57
headset she freaked out when I put like a little cousin in a VR headset they freak out so this just took that extra
00:06:03
step of being like natural to use which was awesome but again agree with David it's so heavy and so uncomfortable in
00:06:10
long periods of time I felt like if I were to actually use it dayto day I would have to have like one of those lean back chairs from like uh Grandma's
00:06:18
Boy or whatever it is where the guy's programming lean back I would have to have my head supported all the time yeah
00:06:23
and correct me if I'm wrong Andrew but you prefer to do things the oy way
00:06:28
meaning you prefer Oculus oh the Oculus or it's not called the Oculus anymore
00:06:34
that's false yeah Quest I thought it was oh um it's the meta Oculus I like the
00:06:39
stuff I like the most about VR is playing games I don't see it as a a productivity thing quite yet and I think
00:06:45
that's where most of these are going so like I like to play Beat saer I like to do virtual reality experiences and that
00:06:52
Quest focuses Vision games are lacking right now I think a lot of that has to do with the fact too that a lot of the
00:06:57
games that are more immersive move a lot and you shouldn't be moving a lot with this on your face cuz it's so heavy
00:07:04
that's a neck brace yeah for sure it's a one-way ticket to neck brace down also
00:07:09
because they are trying to kind of get the hand gestures to be the main interaction point with this device it's
00:07:16
a little difficult for developers to figure out okay how do we use our hands instead of a controller because most of
00:07:22
the like Quest games and stuff have been used with the controller being like a pointer so it's you know it's difficult
00:07:28
they had like they came out with a fruit ninja which was a throwback but besides that there hasn't been a lot of
00:07:35
interesting games for it no and it's funny they guys brought that up out the rip because we will totally be diving
00:07:40
into that but before we dive into that sort of the exposition of why we're here today is Adam and I got in touch with
00:07:48
two developers who made apps for Apple Vision Pro one of whom was really into
00:07:56
it and really thinks this is like a great platform to develop for great platform in general the other uh
00:08:03
actually fully abandoned uh working on Vision Pro he was just like I don't see
00:08:09
a path forward in its current state for like being a a developer and it was really interesting to see uh the things
00:08:16
that they agreed on the things that they disagreed on obviously there's no one answer it's this giant complicated
00:08:23
Behemoth of a platform um so we're going to show some clips from those interviews we're going to talk about it we're going
00:08:29
to get some of your opinions and we're going to have a lot of fun uh but before we dive in let's
00:08:35
introduce the two developers we spoke to who are not actually here the way I said that made it sound like they were like
00:08:42
bring them in boys like no it's not that the first guy we talked to um quick side note my New Year's resolution for the
00:08:49
year was to stop doing that thing that podcasters do a lot where they're like
00:08:55
sorry if I'm not pronouncing this right okay because I every time I hear a podcaster do that I'm like what you you
00:09:01
didn't want to Google it you know what I mean or ask them I spent a lot of time Googling the pronunciation of this first
00:09:07
guy's name Greg he's French um after practicing that in the mirror a lot he
00:09:13
was like you can call me Greg and I was like what hey you took the effort for it yeah good job thank you that's all I
00:09:20
wanted to hear guys um so Greg is a developer behind one of the most popular Vision OS apps it's called Piano flowing
00:09:26
tiles we've seen a version of this on a lot of different headsets but this is the one that people say works I've tried
00:09:33
similar apps on Oculus and I think I tried one on Vive like years ago and it
00:09:38
just it was close but it didn't actually work um from what I know it's similar
00:09:44
it's basically like Guitar Hero but on a real piano Bingo uh that is exactly
00:09:50
Bingo let's go baby yeah so that that's kind of the gist of it um and what's
00:09:55
really interesting is that it is one of the few actual like a R true AR you are
00:10:02
interacting with reality and it is being augmented by the headset um the other
00:10:07
guy we talked to was this really cool dude named chiat who is an indie developer spends most of his time in the
00:10:13
iOS world as also done a few Mac apps um uh his I think I I don't know if it's
00:10:20
his most popular app but the one we ended up talking about the most was this thing called posters and it's just this idea of you have a space you want to put
00:10:27
stuff on the wall bada bing bada boom very simple or you would think it's very
00:10:33
simple but actually getting it to work turned out to be a little trickier
00:10:38
that's a great idea by the way like I hadn't thought about it but if you're going to be sitting in these virtual spaces why not be able to flare it up
00:10:45
right and it and it it especially because you know this is going to sound crazy my favorite Vision Pro feature
00:10:53
like obviously most of the time I use it I'm doing remote desktop um and I love the environments
00:11:00
and I specifically love that you can scale the environments you can have full
00:11:06
and no and everything in between and every environment if you've never used the Vision Pro has a time of day setting
00:11:12
you can you could be in Hawaii a day or you can be in Hawaii at night and when
00:11:17
you scale up with the knob the digital Crown I don't know what they call itown digital Crown when you use the digital
00:11:23
Crown to sort of scale up the environment it starts in front of you and then the more you scale it up the more it wraps around you yeah but so if
00:11:30
you have it in 50% it sort of is 180 degree Hawaii and then be if you turn I
00:11:37
just turned away from the mic forgetting I'm on a podcast if you turn away from the mic or turn away from the front of
00:11:43
you God I'm so good at this if you turn if you turn around yeah that's what I'm trying to say yep if you turn around you
00:11:51
turn around um you're still it's your normal World Behind you but if you choose the nighttime option it changes
00:11:58
the light behind you so that it's still your office it's still I'm still in the studio but it's nighttime in the studio
00:12:06
and to me that is the thing that makes it truly immersive like when I'm at my
00:12:11
desk in the studio noise cancelling headphones on Vision Pro on no one can bother me and I turn around and I see
00:12:18
Tim working in the Heart of Darkness I'm just like this is it this is it baby um
00:12:24
so yeah the idea of like augmenting these spaces that you're still in while you're using it amazing jihat also built
00:12:31
a lot of Dev tools he runs a really great blog for developers very cool guy I really hope he get to do more stuff
00:12:37
with him in the future um so I want to kick off this by saying both of these
00:12:42
developers uh tried Apple Vision Pro at the uh for the first time at these things called developer labs in Europe
00:12:49
are you guys familiar with these yeah not really you want to believe that basically Apple set up
00:12:58
these labs for developers to go and try to like experience The Vision Pro and
00:13:03
kind of like understand how to build for them early exactly so the the gist of it is you bring a Mac your you know your
00:13:10
personal Mac you bring your code and there will be someone there who is a visionpro expert and will help you get
00:13:17
your code running right and so a lot of people were bringing iPad apps that they wanted to run on Vision Pro because if
00:13:23
you don't know you can run a lot of iPad apps just at the Box yeah and it's fine
00:13:29
um yeah it's it's fine it's it's like it's fine you know yeah it's nothing
00:13:34
nothing to write home about too bad Instagram doesn't have an iPad app so real um and neither of them had had much
00:13:40
of a major interest in VR prior to Apple Vision Pro um Greg said that he had
00:13:48
tried the quest was not impressed didn't wasn't interested in it did not put on
00:13:55
another headset until Vision Pro chiat had never worn oh headset oh and disclaimer uh I am not
00:14:04
going to differentiate between VR and AR headsets in this episode okay um because
00:14:10
we're talking about we're comparing Flagship headsets we're comparing Quest Vision Pro Vive do not come at me saying
00:14:18
this is an AR headset this is a VR head we're talking about a two screens in
00:14:23
front of your eyeballs with some cameras and some motion tracking ability and a whole lot of chips and it's not worth
00:14:30
our time here they're also all converging now anyway Quest 3s is Like It upgraded the color past through and
00:14:37
now has higher Fidelity higher frame rate they're all trying to be Vision Pro and Vision Pro is like how do we shrink
00:14:43
yeah kind of if you're what trying to happen if if I truth truly upset you by not delineating these things write to me
00:14:50
on Blue Sky let's start let's start an argument we can get into it for the world to see so if I if I call Vision
00:14:58
Pro a headset and for some reason that is not accurate sue me IAL Computing
00:15:04
spal Computing God do you listen to Apple when they talk does AR stand for Apple reality like are we are we are we
00:15:10
there yet don't give them that idea I mean AI they're probably going to do it you know Apple intelligence Apple
00:15:15
reality I can see it anyway yes anyway so I was like chiat that's crazy you are
00:15:22
a tech dude you write code you've never worn a v a headset before Vision Pro
00:15:28
even I had done that and I for the long time longest time was like the most Anti VR person in the world I was like this
00:15:34
is apocalyptic and scary and dumb um you still kind of are when you're not wearing it I know that's so that is so
00:15:43
real I'm like get these headsets off and then I put it on I'm like I love keep it on my face don't stick it away I know
00:15:51
and it's funny everyone else flips too everyone else is like oh my God I love the like these headsets are so great and
00:15:56
then they come in the office and they see me sitting at my desk with the blue eyes on and they go this is so weird I
00:16:01
hate this one time Marquez just walked by me and I heard him say under his breath he was like God this is the world
00:16:08
now I mean I think that that kind of highlights the fact that these headsets are made for just solo interaction you
00:16:15
know this is this is the whole thing that people have talked about especially with a Vision Pro it's a lonely experience it's a cool experience but
00:16:21
it's not made to be interacted with with other people in the real world no totally and which is the dystopian part about it part of the reason I wear it is
00:16:28
because we have kind of a chaotic studio and I I got some work to do got to zone out um Zone in I got a what what is it
00:16:35
what's the thing that uh but uh if you if you don't lock in you'll spend the rest of your life clocking
00:16:42
in you like that one grind set Bros that you no anyway sponsored by Severance
00:16:49
season 2 yeah I asked chot I was like how did this happen what why and he said
00:16:54
kind of exactly you brought up at the beginning of the episode Andrew basically the reason why I didn't ever wear a um headset like a VR headset
00:17:01
before is because I'm not interested in VR Gaming I am a gamer I would say I play games from time to time and not a
00:17:07
hardcore gamer but I was never really interested in VR Gaming and all other headsets to me were VR like gaming
00:17:14
headsets and this was the first one where I also knew like okay this is really focusing on apps and things with
00:17:20
UI that are not necessarily games and he did not see any existing headset as anything other than a gaming device and
00:17:28
obviously you can virtual desktop on the quest the quest actually has some really cool
00:17:35
virtual desktop features my favorite of which being uh the desk cutout that you can have lots of peripherals and
00:17:41
controllers that are still accessible to you uh in the quest and in The Vision Pro actually well the Vision Pro only
00:17:47
with the magic keyboard and the Magic Mouse yes and which is like super messed up super I mean not going to lie this
00:17:55
might be the year of the magic keyboard for me I really love my magic keyboard home like as long as you don't use the
00:18:01
mouse we're fine I'm a I'm a l is where I draw the line no no I'm I'm a trackpad guy and it's not even about the fact
00:18:08
that it charges from the bottom it's just a bad Mouse wow at davidl I said
00:18:14
it I will say Blue Sky me it's going to be hard to switch at work because Andrew built me just like the Lexus of
00:18:21
keyboards this thing is like that's true it's butter for us it's the Lexus for him it's like a Honda Civic no Lexus
00:18:27
works I'm just rid Ferrari right now I swear to God you could bake a
00:18:32
croissant with how buttery this thing is um yeah and so she it made sense right
00:18:37
like like Vision Pro like we said is too heavy to play Beat saer on like it just
00:18:43
doesn't work well as a gaming headset and I thought that was sort of an interesting thing about it like there's
00:18:49
this it it really I never thought about it this way but I don't know anyone who
00:18:55
owns a quest that didn't buy it for gaming yeah actually I take that back I know one dude his name is Tim and he is
00:19:03
a very unique character not our Tim not our Tim all that applies to our Tim it is hilarious my Tim is a graphic
00:19:09
designer as well interesting it must be the name it must be yeah but I would say that most people definitely buy these
00:19:15
for gaming all of the ads that meta releases around the quest are primarily gaming focused ads right as of late
00:19:21
they're trying to push that but they're definitely trying to go more of the productivity route I think they're
00:19:26
edging into the productivity Zone because they're trying to E Apple's lunch they're like this is $500 and
00:19:31
apple is $3,500 so but the problem with using Quest the problem that I had using
00:19:37
Quest as a productivity tool is another thing or touches on another thing that both of these developers chot and Greg
00:19:43
agreed on which is the best part about the Vision Pro is how intuitive it is I
00:19:50
know it feels so intuitive you you put your headsets on and you already know
00:19:55
how to use it sure there's maybe like 15 seconds where you're like whoa whoa I have to know where my eyes are pointed
00:20:02
yeah and then after that you're just like in it like you the touching feels natural where you put your hands feels
00:20:09
natural everything just begins to like click and that's what makes it such a cool productivity device mhm all this
00:20:16
being said I wanted to ask you guys next how many people in real life blood
00:20:22
in their veins human beings zero I know where you're going with those how many people do you know that
00:20:29
spent their money on a Vision Pro zero I might know one Marquez doesn't
00:20:36
countz does not count that's not true I do know a couple yeah I know one person
00:20:41
who just buys pretty much everything that's Apple that comes out okay I want to dive into your answer first so I also
00:20:47
know why I know not much more after that that's perfect but it's sort of like this person every time like every time
00:20:53
there's a new Apple new iPhone every time new Apple watch every time okay and you think that is the the biggest reason
00:20:58
they bought bought this thing oh of people I know outside of our Tech worlds
00:21:03
but like there's really only they only sold so many there's not that many people outside of our Tech worlds that I
00:21:09
there's like none that I know personally my my friend ramsy who I played DOTA with he lives in Egypt um I was going to
00:21:16
say that's a fire Egyptian name it is and you said he lives in Egypt he lives in Egypt nice all right swag he bought a
00:21:22
Vision Pro one because he just really likes technology stuff uh and two
00:21:27
because he wanted to play DotA to in a virtual environment uh with a giant display giant virtual display and he was
00:21:34
hounding me because his M1 Max MacBook Pro was like dropping frames while
00:21:39
playing it on the ver on the Vision Pro vers so he was like please test the
00:21:45
M4 Pro so I can see if I if I bought a new laptop it would work and he said it
00:21:51
does so really yeah yeah he mostly uses it for that though okay primarily to
00:21:56
play Dota 2 on a massive virtual that sounds awesome that's kind of sick I tried it was awesome really yeah I
00:22:03
really tried to game with the virtual display and I could not get a single game to even open really DOTA is like 15
00:22:09
years old so that is true yeah also it runs yeah it runs on the on the Mac and it's just like it's like you're
00:22:15
mirroring your Mac and The Vision Pro is what I'm saying no no same but like every single time I would try to do it there would be some like Graphics error
00:22:21
like I'd get like I'd get the scary window that had this red circle with the exclamation point and it be like
00:22:27
critical graphic Oh weird you're done bro no but I mean valve specifically
00:22:32
tries to make all of their games run on every platform seamlessly and Dota 2 is like mac it it's Mac native as well as
00:22:40
Windows native as well as Linux native so interesting yeah interesting well you're not alone Greg and shihat also do
00:22:47
not know many people anyone a single person who purchased it which
00:22:53
is crazy yeah um and I tried to look up the actual sales numbers it's Apple so
00:22:59
which confused me I thought publicly traded companies had to sort of publish this stuff but they group it into
00:23:05
categories so that's how they do it yeah found some estimates that in this first
00:23:10
year of Vision Pro Sales uh they sold as low as 220,000 units I saw some
00:23:16
estimates that they sold as high as half a million units um that's not very many
00:23:21
there's not that many people out there with this headset I mean like what there
00:23:27
is no killer feature like it's a fun party trick it's super fun party trick but for $3,500 you can buy a nice
00:23:34
MacBook Pro for that price okay and chih totally agrees with you firstly price and um everyone who puts it on um like I
00:23:42
think there's one reason people I know would actually buy it because everyone who has seen those for example the
00:23:49
soccer the football video with the the short one everyone who's seen that and who likes to watch football really
00:23:57
really wants to have the device with life sports events they would buy it immediately if there were life Sports
00:24:03
football of their favorite team or something like that because it's the best experience you can watch it from your home it's sometimes like some
00:24:09
people think it's better than actually being there because you can change the camera perspective which you can't do when you're sitting there and you just
00:24:15
have your one angle and I think that's the reason people could buy it but
00:24:21
currently it's just too expensive and too heavy I think the only pain point is the price cuz yeah
00:24:28
I think it's very very easy to develop on it it's very intuitive so so I think
00:24:34
the only Bain point is the price before I dive into this next point I wrote this in the script do we still say killer app
00:24:40
do I sound like a boomer when I say killer app like if I if I say killer app
00:24:46
like the Silicon Valley Bros aren't going to be like no one's talking about killer apps anymore no what they say they say product Market fit you don't
00:24:52
have to say that but killer app killer app is still a valid I think for a new
00:24:58
category it definitely is valid right it's not I just figured because it's such a like 2010 thing to say like dude
00:25:04
I think Urban Spoon is the killer app you know guys remember Urban I loved Urban Spoon but this is
00:25:11
not about well it actually specifically applies to this because it needs a singular app that makes it worth buying
00:25:17
but there just isn't a singular app that has been released that's like I buy Vision Pro for that app you know what
00:25:23
I'm saying like Marquez buys MacBooks for Final Cut he could really less I
00:25:29
mean I'm sure he likes the integration with the other Apple stuff he has but he would be much more open to using a
00:25:34
Windows computer if Windows ran Final Cut yeah that's a this is a lot of talk about right now I he would agree with
00:25:43
me I don't know I know this I don't know I'm not gonna not gonna not going to speak on Marquez when he's not here but
00:25:50
I don't know bro I don't know about that one Andrew what do you think if Marquez would used Windows yeah he used to but
00:25:57
would he switch back if Final Cut I'm not saying he would switch back I'm saying he'd be open to using he' be I
00:26:02
think he'd be open to using it interesting fascinating um who knows both Greg and chiot agree that Marquez
00:26:10
would be open I knew you were GNA say that yes no that that that this price is such an
00:26:16
issue to getting people adopt and it and it it creates this vicious cycle right
00:26:23
high price low adoption M low adoption there's not an incentive for devs to
00:26:30
start making stuff for this thing right and of course content is missing as well and content isn't arriving because the
00:26:36
big players don't want to invest because they are not enough users and they're not enough users because the big players
00:26:41
don't invest so the this is like a chicken and neck problem and one thing that chiat said that really got my
00:26:48
thinking gears turning was uh he used the used that term invest he said there
00:26:54
are not enough users and these big players are not interested in investing their time and money because when you're
00:27:00
a big development Studio you you move you're like a big ship you move slowly
00:27:06
and expensively um and that sort of is where Indie developers are supposed to come in right they can move faster they
00:27:11
can invest faster um they can get these things moving and yet we don't see that
00:27:19
and I was super curious why we're not seeing that um and the answer was kind
00:27:24
of interesting like neither of them said developers are not being supported by Apple totally um but it all comes back
00:27:34
to this userbase cyclical issue I think the main problem is the user base not
00:27:40
being big because then you don't have the big motivation to also um like usually you you release an app you bring
00:27:47
out the first version and then you iterate you improve it improve it and you add more features more ideas and
00:27:52
that's not really something that motivates something on Vision Pro because there are not so many users and you can't really make a lot of money
00:27:59
with it so most people who are on it really have to just poker and just say like maybe they will be the the users at
00:28:06
some point and then I will have my app ready no I understand that stands from Indie developers too because say you're
00:28:12
an indie developer and you're not working for some big studio and you want to like build out your skills right the reason a lot of Indie developers make
00:28:18
apps is because they're just like oh this like hones my development skills and it's just a fun project but why
00:28:24
would you make a fun project if nobody's going to use it you know what I mean there's also there's also that like
00:28:30
magical moment where you just like make a fun app in many cases a task app and
00:28:35
then you just tweet about it randomly and then all of a sudden people on the internet just go oh I want to try that out and people you mean me Adam and then
00:28:43
randomly they either get really popular or they just they have this big stage
00:28:48
but there's nobody to actually use this fish and you're spending this time learning how to code for Vision Pro but
00:28:54
it's like it's not you don't have faith that they're going to like expand the ecosystem to where people are still
00:29:01
going to be using Vision OS in the future and with that high price tag I don't know if an indie developer
00:29:08
wants to buy one yes totally and think about how amazing an experience an indie
00:29:16
developer and Indie team would have to make to justify a $4,000 piece of hardware for for some app they could buy
00:29:22
one of those Nvidia AI computer Mini PC things for that price dude dig like $3,000 you
00:29:30
could buy like an entire like like room in your house full of sick stuff for
00:29:36
$4,000 you know what I mean we got to go cut to a commercial break but when we get back we're going to talk about the
00:29:41
experience of actually writing code and developing on this thing and what it's been like to despite the price despite
00:29:49
the low user base to forge ahead and try and write programs in Vision Pro but
00:29:56
until then we'll be right [Music]
00:30:11
back welcome back we're talking about Vision Pro we're talking to developers we're talking code we're talking $4,000
00:30:18
price tags all of it um one interesting thing chiat said to
00:30:24
me uh is and I think I me mentioned this to you in passing Andrew but I asked
00:30:30
both Greg and sheot what do you do in Vision Pro when you're not developing for it cuz you both own One MH for
00:30:36
development purposes but you also use it um Greg gave me very normal answer I
00:30:43
like to watch movies in it it's great for watching movies big screen your house your couch uh it's kind of hard to
00:30:49
drink a beverage without a straw in Vision Pro as someone who drinks a lot of coffee getting a c like feeling the
00:30:56
coffee mug clink against the glass is like pretty I can't imagine the hot steam coming up onto the glass is not
00:31:03
just absolutely it had the issue where on the bottom too it was splitting
00:31:09
though too remember yeah well the one that I the one in the office has not split it did oh Brandon's Brandon's but
00:31:17
I I be clinking I be clinking that thing um but what do you think chiot's
00:31:23
favorite thing to do in Vision Pro was cuz it really surprised me and it is the first time I had heard someone give this
00:31:28
answer when I asked him that question do back flips do back flips that is exactly correct it's funny like that the weight
00:31:33
of it actually sort of creates this center point of mass that you can whip your body around like really no it
00:31:39
probably would you said he doesn't game right does not game um and it's not
00:31:44
movies the first thing I would like think of that would actually be beneficial to have something is some
00:31:50
sort of like 3D rendering or modeling in a so you can see things in a 3D space
00:31:55
interesting but not what he said what else can you do in this thing he said he
00:32:01
loves it for reading manga oh and I was like doesn't the if you're looking at a
00:32:07
page doesn't the fiated rendering like ruin that experience like only the thing you're looking at is in Focus really and
00:32:14
the rest of it's sort of like unrendered gobleg well the thing about manga specifically is that most of the things
00:32:21
are draw it's it's like pictures and the text is quite big like you I can also
00:32:27
read other stuff but I wouldn't necessarily read a book in it but for manga it's perfect because you mostly
00:32:32
like look at the pictures and read the text for it and then you just swipe every 15 seconds or so and then it's you
00:32:39
don't have to hold anything it's really awesome enough about manga never never yeah you're so right I don't read any
00:32:45
manga I barely know anything about it but uh I want to talk about developing on Vision OS because have you been in
00:32:52
the app store on Vision OS not in a very long time it is like going to a mall in 2025
00:32:58
there is like the lights are out the the lights are out it's it there's dripping from the ceiling there's like three
00:33:05
stores and they're all like half open yeah and there's always one cooh attached to like the side of it that is
00:33:11
still open exactly got to get that blue light special that's Kohl's right I don't know I have no idea Kohl's is not
00:33:17
anyone you know what I'm talking about no the Blue Light Special one of those old timey stores would there'd be like
00:33:23
this thing where like in the middle of the day Kmart Kmart this blue light would come on and it would signify like
00:33:29
an ultra deal and you'd have to like run to one part of the store and like wow I hate everything about that story before
00:33:36
fortnite real life was actually kind of like fortnite I don't know if you guys knew
00:33:42
this anyway interesting come on Ellis 2025 before
00:33:49
fortnite continue um so both of them said
00:33:55
developing for Apple Vision Pro is not particularly difficult if you're already coming from traditional Mac app SL IOS
00:34:05
app and one of the reason be one of the reason that is is because over the years Apple has actually made developing for
00:34:12
iOS and developing for Mac more and more similar with swift um and I think that's a really
00:34:19
cool thing especially now that both devices are running on Apple silicon obviously the M series and the a series
00:34:24
are very different chips but there more similar than you know we're not going to
00:34:30
use the word Intel around here but uh but you know what I mean um wow and so
00:34:36
they both said if you're used to using Apple's apis uh you can kind of get
00:34:42
started pretty easily and that is actually where their their perspectives began to differ um and one
00:34:53
thing you know Greg has this really complicated app it's you need to model a piano but
00:35:02
not really display it because you need to be able to see the actual piano you're sitting at and then that needs to be pinned to a physical location in the
00:35:08
world and then you need to be generating these objects that fall linearly and they need to land on the right keys
00:35:15
because if they're even a little bit off the app is useless you're not you're not getting useful information for playing
00:35:20
this piano and he found the Apple apis to be
00:35:25
pretty useful for that purpose he said he had to model the piano himself um
00:35:31
which took a little bit of time but after that things like the Spheres that represent the notes there's an API for
00:35:37
that getting them to like stream down there's an API for that um and chiat actually had sort of an
00:35:46
opposite experience so the the interesting thing about division Pro is there are two
00:35:53
different worlds within the Vision Pro one world is you have you open your app
00:35:58
and you say my app is the only app that can run now all other apps have to be
00:36:03
gone and when you enter that mode you get access to more functionality you get
00:36:09
access to things that the camera is tracking like the the walls the surfaces the tables that the the device is
00:36:16
finding in your room so you can do more in that way case you can actually do a
00:36:21
lot of stuff you could do skeletal tracking you could do many things but that goes to back back to basically how
00:36:28
I see the Vision Pro as a VR device right now because that I would call that the VR mode because you only have this
00:36:35
one app that can do something and even if it does augment like reality augmentation stuff it can't do it
00:36:41
together with other apps that also may may be augmenting or trying to augment reality and that's like technically
00:36:47
that's called the full space for apps if you run it um in the full space then you
00:36:53
can have access to all those but if you run it in the other one in the shared space where all the apps can be open
00:36:59
where you can have like a window here a window there and move them around you can't access any of these apis and
00:37:05
that's that's the thing that I think makes this device really interesting if you as an AR device if you can open
00:37:12
multiple apps and do things with those this was so interesting to hear because the ability to multitask this like
00:37:18
spatial Computing environment was to me the signature selling point of the Vision Pro and the fact that it's
00:37:24
actually sort of harder to develop in that mode really like was not something I expected to hear the thing the part
00:37:32
I'm thinking that it's mostly lacking is the a part like there's b i I personally don't see the Vision Pro as an AR device
00:37:39
yet because the software is missing really wait okay wow okay damn
00:37:46
you're really giving me a lot here um what what's missing from the AR part of
00:37:52
it well what is augmenting reality it means you can augment Reality by adding
00:37:57
stuff to your reality right M so when I want to add stuff to my reality like I have an app where you can basically open
00:38:04
posters and pin them to your walls and then that's like augmenting reality you can do that it works like my app is
00:38:10
there but as soon as you switch the device uh off and turn it back on the
00:38:16
augmenting of the reality is gone so I would state that the augmentation of
00:38:22
reality is just temporary right now it's not persistent and this doesn't make it
00:38:27
really in AR device because I can't really augment my room I can't really augment my place just imagine if I was
00:38:35
basically creating a new dimension of world where I have different kinds of
00:38:41
things in my home and I can switch it on and off whenever I want and maybe I have multiple different ones I have one for
00:38:47
work one for um ledure time and one for like when I pass it on to guests so
00:38:53
that's the kind of AR that I'm imagining and seeing as AR and that's completely missing right now that's something that
00:38:59
the quest does well actually is your home space that you have on the quest you can like customize and it can be
00:39:06
like very personalized to use that every time you turn it on if you land in the home space by default then you have all
00:39:12
your stuff and it's in the same space right remind me is the quest's home space is it are you referring to like
00:39:20
the boundary that you draw it's like called like Quest home or something but are you referring to like the weird sort of like room that you
00:39:31
it'si so it is it's a very different thing but yes VR versus AR but I do
00:39:39
think you raised this really good point that persistence is so important in
00:39:44
manufacturing any reality whether it's an augmented version of our existing reality or it's a complete virtual
00:39:50
reality I will say like one of the huge things that multiple people have brought up many times is that I would love to
00:39:57
use this thing sitting in front of my computer but the problem is that when I
00:40:02
want to like pin Windows around me and like do all this set up so that oh in my kitchen you it has this really amazing
00:40:09
thing where like you can keep things in other rooms but the fact that when you turn it off and then turn it back on all
00:40:14
of that is gone it makes it really difficult to use this thing redundantly and yeah and just it's like beneficial
00:40:22
like oh I'm going to use it in my living room now oh I'm going to use it in my kitchen now I'm going to use it in my bedroom now and without that persistence
00:40:29
it's so much effort to just set things up every single time yes and that just
00:40:35
to me just feels like this giant blind spot that's like almost worse than the price it's not worse than the price
00:40:40
$4,000 is so much money but seriously it's like a huge blind spot as even as someone who only uses this thing at my
00:40:48
desk at work mhm literally not a single other time having to reset all my windows
00:40:55
every time I get to work sucks yeah it sucks so bad and when this thing got
00:41:01
announced I remember all these commercials where it's like you can pin your cooking instructions to your
00:41:06
toaster and then it'll be and it's like what's the point of that it's like picture the real world version of that
00:41:12
where every time you leave a sticky note somewhere in your house and then you leave your house it's gone no it's all
00:41:17
back in a stack and you have to re sticky that's like even worse somehow so
00:41:23
naturally that's a great analogy yeah so naturally I had to ask right but Vision
00:41:29
OS too well that's already out I know but it fixed this right like they fixed it like they added the necessary apis they
00:41:35
sort of like you know fixed it no no and
00:41:41
chiat once again and this is his opinion this is not like based on like hardcore reporting but he sort of enlightened me
00:41:48
with this Vision os2 in my point of view was like an update that basically fixed
00:41:54
or filled gaps more or less that that you developers already expected to be there from day one so Vision 2 I don't I
00:42:02
wouldn't say it brought any new apis new functionalities new tools that enable
00:42:07
developers to do new stuff they just felt like they just listen to the developer feedback to say like hey this
00:42:14
is missing this is buggy this is that kind of stuff was important too but in my point of view vision os3 is going to
00:42:20
be the first post feedback release of vision OS to me it was crazy that they called it Vision OS 2 in the first place
00:42:27
because they really kind of just improved on things that were obviously missing like the big thing about it was
00:42:32
they kind of just took the feedback from reviewers and people that were buying it that were like it's very hard to
00:42:38
recommend without these very obvious features and they tried to add those in as quick as possible but they didn't
00:42:43
like change like add apis like you said and like totally change how you use the device I think that would be a real 2.o
00:42:52
so it's pretty wild that they didn't just call it 1.5 I know especially given the timeline of it like like Vision Pro
00:42:58
comes out in February and then in June the vision OS 2 Beta happens I I can't
00:43:05
remember if that was the developer beta or the public beta but it's like developer beta they're not going to be
00:43:11
adding crazy new features once the beta is out like it's it's pretty I mean unless I fundamentally misunderstand how
00:43:17
to develop software so Jihad like he said it really feels like vision os3 is going to be the first real new thing we
00:43:26
get does he have like a wish list of things that he wants to see in visual David I'm so happy you asked um not only
00:43:34
does he have a wish list but it is beautifully written unbelievably clear and on his blog fn.dev F
00:43:43
ldev and an article called why I stopped building for vision OS and what could
00:43:49
bring me back and his wish list number one magnetically pinning windows and
00:43:55
objects to surface this sort of exists right like it does
00:44:01
recognize Services you can sort of put stuff up against them kind of it's a little bit messier than that but still
00:44:08
isn't persistent doesn't really accomplish like a full mixed reality experience number two Advanced room
00:44:15
scanning with editable 3D models and he's talking about a hybrid API that
00:44:20
combines the power of room plan and the 3D scanner um Apple clearly has a lot of
00:44:27
experience with lar yeah at this point yeah lots of Apple devices have lar mhm uh number three skeletal recognition for
00:44:33
fun AR interactions uh I'll be real I don't understand rigging in 3D
00:44:41
stuff not a developer that don't have you knew this so I'm not even going to try to explain uh how skeletal stuff
00:44:47
works but it has something to do with rigging um or maybe not oops um and then more Interactive
00:44:57
uh immersive video experiences like we should be able to have a 3D video that
00:45:02
you can more walk around maybe I don't know um like Apple Maps like he says
00:45:09
exactly like like an Apple Maps and we actually had a really funny conversation about Apple Maps because I am an avid
00:45:16
Microsoft flight simulator player and are you guys familiar with the Bing Maps
00:45:21
integration no really no you know about this I didn't even know that was a prod
00:45:27
those Bing Maps yeah are you okay so Bing Maps exists Google or Microsoft owns you know all of this map data and
00:45:34
they also own Azure right the cloud computing platform yeah and they have
00:45:40
this big partnership with a little company I don't know if youve ever heard of them open AI I don't actually know if
00:45:46
open ai's models are part of this but I would assume it's part of this just sort of extended family of nonsense um but
00:45:53
when you're playing Microsoft flight simulator they Leverage uh open- Source map data and Bing Maps
00:46:01
data with an AI running on Azure Cloud to recreate the entire world in 3D oh to
00:46:11
the point because they're using like real up like upto-date satellite maps from Big Maps if you fly over your house
00:46:18
not only will you be like hey that's my house I recognize it you'll be like that's my car pared outside yeah holy
00:46:25
crap it's awesome it's awesome so when you're like flying around the neighborhood you grew up in you can use
00:46:30
like real landmarks to navigate or like when I'm flying around Los Angeles where I grew up it's like amazing I can be
00:46:37
like there's my there's actually something really beautiful about being in the sky and seeing your entire
00:46:43
childhood neighborhood at once and being like that's the park where I played baseball that's my elementary school and
00:46:49
like like like a decade of memories being experienced once it's amazing anyway this is all to say this is
00:46:55
possible we have the technology um it's in a stupid video game yeah so jiot like
00:47:04
was really frustrated he felt like he wasn't he didn't have the apis necessary to truly make the AR experiences of his
00:47:09
dreams meanwhile Greg's experience was actually like way more rewarding he um
00:47:16
he found the new workflows of you know coding on a Mac putting on the headset writing a few more lines of code in the
00:47:22
headset testing it out taking it off challenging but rewarding and something to think about and he also said
00:47:28
something that I thought was really cool um which is that when you write iOS apps
00:47:34
you're constantly thinking about how do I put everything in this box this
00:47:39
rectangle in a way that like makes the most sense right and then when you're working with Vision Pro apps all of a
00:47:45
sudden you have in theory Limitless amounts of space and what do you do with
00:47:51
that how do you not overload the user but also how do you not underwhelm the user and I was just like wow that is
00:47:56
such a a fun brain shift to get to do but once
00:48:02
again like apple are really helping and how to how to design stuff in 3D and and
00:48:09
I think like I think it's so cool like when you when you build an up on on an iOS you have to think in a small
00:48:16
rectangle you have to here you have all the space around you to to bring
00:48:23
information and it's so cool and that's why I wanted like my up in on the piano the nuts are
00:48:30
falling from the from the sky and it's cool to see Greg also said that he found
00:48:36
Vision OS 2 to have some really meaningful improvements specifically for
00:48:42
the piano app anchor points are much more stable you know when you put an
00:48:48
anchor in the real world you wanted to to be very stable for example for the
00:48:54
the piano application I I don't want it to shift like even uh some millimeters it will
00:49:01
show the wrong n for example on the piano so I really want it to be very accurate and I think with vision os2
00:49:07
they improve it a little bit so it's very very good accuracy and and when you
00:49:14
put an Anor on the on the real world it will stick when you like say hey in the real world this point is here uh there's
00:49:21
a lot less Jitter um which as I'm sure you could imagine for something like the piano app app is a lot better kind of
00:49:29
important it's also funny cuz that sounds like a 1.x update not a 2.0 upate
00:49:35
because it's an it's less it's fixed right it's a thing that exists that
00:49:40
was Andrew exactly so one thing that I was really curious about as someone who doesn't develop is how different is
00:49:46
coding for iOS versus Macintosh god it feels weird to say Macintosh but I'm going to say it how
00:49:52
different is IOS and MacIntosh and then how different are those two things from Pro from a developer perspective and one
00:49:59
thing that both of these devs brought up is that over the years Apple has really pushed these sort of semantic Solutions
00:50:07
right where back in the day if you were coding for mac and you wanted to put a search bar in a specific place you would
00:50:14
enter in coordinates sometimes they're UV coordinates sometimes they other kind of coordinates you would pin it to that
00:50:20
location you'd start to like build your layout right over the years Apple has really made it such as that they know
00:50:27
where the best place for search bar is in an iOS app it's not going to be buried in a hamburger menu it's not
00:50:33
going to be at the lower left hand side of the screen like you know where the the magnifying glass is supposed to go
00:50:40
boy yeah the bottom of the Safari window and so when you're writing Swift Code often times what you're saying is not
00:50:47
put the search bar at the top of the screen you're saying put the search bar in the search bar place um one thing
00:50:53
that definitely is different on Vision OS than on um Mac OS or iOS is that it didn't have that old system where you
00:51:01
could describe like I want to have a button at this coordinate and it looks exactly like it just doesn't have that
00:51:07
same as the watchos by by by the way on watch OS you can't also do that on iOS we because we had this old system before
00:51:13
2019 that was this old system and on the Mac it it's still there you can still
00:51:19
use it and you can always fall back to it like apple didn't drop support for that old system it's still there you can
00:51:25
use the new one which had these baked in functionalities or you can choose to use
00:51:30
the old one but on on Vision we don't have it they basically when they introduce new platforms nowadays they
00:51:36
say okay we only introduce a new system you have to use it and the new system is more restricted and you can't like UI
00:51:43
wise there are things you can't really control yourself in detail so it's a bit different but still you can make a lot
00:51:50
of custom stuff still when it comes to like window uis and stuff like that um I would see the limitations more in the on
00:51:57
the parts that are not just buttons and UI elements like you have on iPad Etc
00:52:02
and and other platforms but the stuff that division Pro should actually excel at being AR and VR which on the one hand
00:52:11
at first I was like that sounds not fun that sounds like apple is telling you
00:52:16
how to do things and both Greg and chiat responded they were like no no no no no no no no no it's not like that bro like
00:52:23
obviously sometimes it's fun to have freedom as far as your user interface goes but for the most part when you're
00:52:28
making an app the user interface is not creative expression like you need it to
00:52:34
be intuitive so that people can actually use your dang thing um and it's it can
00:52:39
bog you down like having to write all of this code but something really interesting that they mentioned is that
00:52:45
on both um Mac OS and iOS uh you can
00:52:51
always fall back on the old system you can always override the prescribed semantics you can always go back to the
00:52:57
coordinates okay that is not true on Vision Pro interesting and it's because there's no Legacy system that Vision Pro
00:53:04
is building upon I mean technically it's it's a fork of iPad OS but at the same
00:53:09
time you don't get any of those old tools and I thought that was like a really
00:53:14
interesting thing as a developer because V Vision OS is different from Mac OS and
00:53:20
iPad OS where with or iOS iOS has been around since 2007
00:53:26
we know the best place I'm going use the search we know where it is we've figured it out we've we've we've gone through
00:53:33
the fire but we don't know these things yet for Vision Pro like we have an idea
00:53:39
of what's probably going to work well and it seems like it's going all right we all agree that this thing is very intuitive but also I don't know I sort
00:53:47
of think we should have the freedom to get a little messy we're new in this thing I see I mean I think no one will
00:53:53
ever be upset with more freedom but one thing I mean we all agree that the thing Apple nailed with Vision Pro was
00:54:01
the intuitiveness so that means they probably found out quite a few things correctly and like do you trust them do
00:54:09
you not trust them it sounds like they have I mean I know you it's over over a
00:54:14
decade of research of iOS stuff knowing where certain things are supposed to go and this is fairly new but they seem to
00:54:19
have hit it pretty well off the bat so I think they know that with the interaction stuff but I think that terms
00:54:26
of the way that apps should work and how they should be pinned and how you should interact with the actual UI elements I
00:54:33
think that's maybe something that might be interesting for developers to kind of mess around with it's always interesting
00:54:40
for I totally agree with that yeah but like I don't know using it feels really intuitive it feels like they that's the
00:54:47
thing they nailed well there's also the delineation between like interfacing with a floating window versus
00:54:52
interfacing with like an object or something like that you know what I mean like a window I think Apple knows what
00:54:58
they're doing M but something else entirely might be might be different do
00:55:03
you think once more developers or once there's more people on board with this they'll kind of revert back to a grid
00:55:10
system nah you don't think they'll give the freedom once people are like oh we're used to this like we get it now
00:55:15
it's been 5 10 years of of spatial OS whatever it's called and then be like
00:55:20
okay here's a little bit more freedom now that we kind of know where everything is or like this is them just
00:55:25
like this is where it goes that's fine I mean it's possible that Apple it feels like
00:55:31
apple wants to have more and more and more control moving forward in general and it seems like maybe because the
00:55:37
iPhone and the Mac have been out for so long they can't necessarily just flip a switch and say we're taking away all
00:55:44
your control but for a completely new paradigm they feel more emboldened to do that well and also I got the impression
00:55:50
that Apple views the those the coordinate system is just like one example right but a lot of these sort of
00:55:56
you do everything from scratch as sort of a legacy way of building these things and
00:56:02
and apple does not seem like the kind of company that is going to fall back on a legacy and I'd also like to raise
00:56:08
there's another really common development platform he's not looking at me there's another really common
00:56:13
development platform that works like this not exactly like put this in the best place but this is sort of how HTML
00:56:20
works it works a bit bit like HTML on the web where you more describe what you want to have and then the browser
00:56:26
decides how it renders it and this time the system now decides how it's rendered yeah so I think being a developer for
00:56:33
the Apple Vision Pro you're in this very weird place where you have all of these tools and yet in order to realize this
00:56:40
device as sort of what Apple advertised you're actually missing a bunch of key tools and there's no guarantee anyone's
00:56:48
actually going to give you any money for that this stuff you know J brought up this really good point that when the vetan pro first came out he was like
00:56:54
there's going to be this Gold Rush moment it's going to be like the iPhone where like people are paying a dollar
00:56:59
for the beer app you know and that it was sort of like that for a week but he said after a week it was just like yeah
00:57:05
just sort of stopped anyway we're going to take another break when we get back from the break we are going to try our
00:57:10
best to look to the Future and see what's in store for this magical piece
00:57:15
of garbage and uh until then Jes Am I Wrong Am I Wrong David David David you
00:57:24
and I were in the same boat right like we we live in New York we're around lots of people they know we're Tech folk and
00:57:30
we get asked should I buy a Vision Pro always say no well I say try I say go to
00:57:37
an Apple store and experience it because it's very fun and then you don't need to buy it exactly yeah it's a magical piece
00:57:44
of garbage it's going a little bit far I don't think so I don't think so it's
00:57:50
magical you put it on and you go jihat said something jiot was like was like after I gave it to some of my older
00:57:56
family members and they took it off they got kind of freaked out because they were like how do I know I'm not wearing
00:58:02
the headset right now go oh no we can't go down this rabbit hole no but all I'm saying is that is Magic and personally
00:58:10
personally I really hate that thing that people say where they're like any sufficiently advanced piece of
00:58:16
technology is indistinguishable from Magic hit the wrong button for me yeah I hate that one um and we can get into
00:58:23
that at another time but Apple Vision Pro is Magic undeniably and it also doesn't
00:58:31
do anything a go it is a magical piece of garbage I'm not going to take any I
00:58:37
love Vision Pro I I'm like the biggest Vision Pro guy in the office and I firmly believe magic trash and without
00:58:45
giving any of my hosts a chance to respond I'm going to take it to commercial
00:58:50
[Music]
00:59:02
welcome back to the freezer aka the waveform studio we're cold and I'm Ellis
00:59:08
and we're going to be talking about the future of Vision Pro and where we think it's heading and I poked and prodded
00:59:13
these developers as hard as I could to try to be like speculate speculate speculate and they just wouldn't they
00:59:20
were like I don't know um so that's our job as your resident morons um
00:59:26
I would like to go first with my speculation sure okay I am doubtful cheaper Vision Pro will come out I want
00:59:33
it to I see it as pretty much the only way this platform is going to survive you mean like ever or like soon like in
00:59:41
the next year or two I don't want to say ever because it's not look we had this
00:59:48
big year this year where both meta and snap unveiled these tiny glasses they're
00:59:54
not even 1% as powerful full as Vision Pro they don't have as high a resolution um they don't work as well in almost
01:00:00
every way that being said the degree to which the form factor was scaled down is
01:00:08
nuts it's very compelling it's super compelling and if I were Apple I would
01:00:13
at least be thinking hm maybe this is where this is going and
01:00:18
not a big giant headset and you already have this really powerful base that is
01:00:24
Vision OS I could see not spending money developing a cheaper Slimmer headset
01:00:31
going back to hardcore research mode cultivating Vision OS into something that will eventually run on on glasses
01:00:40
and just waiting for other people to do the necessary research to make these things I don't think that's what's going
01:00:45
to happen you don't think that's what's going to happen what do you David Amel think is going to happen I think that
01:00:51
they are going to try to make it Slimmer okay they're absolutely going to try to make it cheaper okay
01:00:56
and there might even be a situation where they uh subsidize the price a little bit of course um
01:01:03
Google it cost Google $50 more than it cost them to make the Nexus 7 to sell it
01:01:10
because they just needed to adopt Google Play users and that worked very well for them so what Apple needs to do is they
01:01:17
need to make it less annoying to wear uh they need to make it cheaper and they need to make a killer app that actually
01:01:23
makes people want to use it every day um uh or it just enhance the work features where you do have permanent spatial
01:01:30
pinning and that kind of stuff and I think that considering chipsets are like getting faster and lower power and all
01:01:36
this kind of stuff they could even like I don't know switch to an A series chip at some point it probably doesn't need
01:01:41
to run an M series chip I don't know I don't I mean a lot of the stuff is getting easier to run the chipsets are
01:01:46
getting faster the node do the node size is shrinking like I think that they
01:01:52
could potentially put it on a smaller chip later down the line but um yeah I
01:01:58
think the build quality is allowed to take a hit if it means it can go smaller
01:02:03
and if they could sell it for $1,500 or or less I think that that could be a winner but they need they need to make
01:02:09
it cheaper if you go on Vision Pro r/ Vision Pro I think that's what it's
01:02:15
called um you almost always see people bragging they were like I just finished
01:02:20
my Vision Pro setup and it's always Mac Mini magic keyboard Apple Vision Pro no monitor
01:02:26
like that is the thing people are most stoked about is like and I don't really
01:02:33
uh I like that you said $1,500 because the alternative to a Vision Pro in that
01:02:38
setup is a studio display right which is also overpriced yep definitely but absolutely
01:02:46
I think the idea of you're building an atome desktop setup Vision Pro versus
01:02:54
Studio display yeah actually kind of makes sense both have speakers both have a webcam it just
01:03:00
sort of depends you know what your Vibe is um I was going to take the very
01:03:06
common Andrew route and go somewhere in between both of you wow wow card I kind of like agree with both of you I think
01:03:12
we all agree that the metag glasses and The Vision Pro are the two far ends of
01:03:19
the spectrum and they're both battling to the middle of that and they just like started at different routes so like the
01:03:25
form factor is better on metag glasses if you can create that but the computing power is nothing where the form factors
01:03:32
they just focused way too much on over quality controlling it and it's just
01:03:37
like not comfortable to wear but the computer pattern is just insane I like what David said of like this think of
01:03:42
how the quest has like the quest 3 now the quest 3s like I don't I don't know what they would call it because it
01:03:48
wouldn't be Vision Pro it' be like Vision SE would be that like thousand
01:03:53
version that's maybe a little more plastic toas is lower quity but be so
01:04:00
comfortable on head and lighter so like something like that I think we totally
01:04:05
see it because they need to keep developing inside of vision and if we're already seeing if one of our two
01:04:11
developers we talk to is like I'm not doing this anymore not a great route for developers so they need something to
01:04:17
keep them around and they need something that you know you need the research of how people are using it so if you make
01:04:24
it $4,000 you make to expensive you need to make it access so I also agree with
01:04:29
subsidizing some and then they're going to work down towards the better form factor but I think we are you know as
01:04:35
impressive as snap and meta are with their glasses we are just so far away
01:04:40
from that being the form factor of like actually producing what you want to use in everyday life and being able to
01:04:46
afford it and and it seems like the what you need to make a budget version of
01:04:52
this whenever I talk to Engineers not just but meta snap all over the place
01:04:58
who are working on these problems I get wildly different answers like I was talking I'm not going to you know name
01:05:04
any names but I was talking to engineers at one company who were like yeah you know getting a stable image to both of
01:05:11
your eyes is really tough because you have almost no tolerance for any Flex
01:05:19
like as soon as one of the displays moves ever so slightly all of a sudden
01:05:24
the the you your brain is struggling to like combine them into a stereoscopic image mhm I then asked that to another
01:05:32
company and they were like sounds like a skill issue and I was just like I don't
01:05:38
know what to believe man there's no like standard in this and I think all the companies are working and we've had them
01:05:43
admit that too they're like this is what we want with this we think it's going to be the standard but we're also ready to
01:05:49
uh like switch gears and move to the thing that universally becomes the standard so no I mean I think some
01:05:55
people believe that like a smaller field of view and higher resolution is more important than meta's wider field of
01:06:01
view and lower resolution you know what I mean yeah and there's just two there's just a lot of different competing camps
01:06:07
on how this is going to go and this goes this is almost a protocol question yeah um because there's just a lot of
01:06:13
competing standards until eventually people figure it out I know you know it's really funny that you brought up
01:06:18
that dichotomy because it really does actually make the Vision Pro make a little bit more sense because the Apple
01:06:26
solution to do we go with higher resolution or do we go with more field
01:06:31
of view is is yes both and make it insane yeah yeah that that's something
01:06:37
else that I was thinking about I think that they know that they need to make this like cheaper and lighter and made of more of plastic but Apple has entered
01:06:43
a stage in their company's lifespan where everything they make is jewelry they have they don't really sell a
01:06:50
product that isn't supposed to be like jewelry you know what I mean what do you mean by jewelry expand on that like the
01:06:56
fit and finish and the build quality and everything is just like insane tolerances the materials titanium like
01:07:03
freaking everything they make is just like they so I think that they're scared of making something that feels like it
01:07:10
could be a little bit cheaper whereas meta is just like I don't know dude throw at the wall like figure it out it
01:07:15
doesn't really matter if it's plastic it doesn't really we're just trying to like Advance the technology and we're trying to put this people's hands we're trying
01:07:20
to put this excuse me we're trying to put this on people's heads yeah who's doing that though Meta Meta the funny
01:07:26
thing is though is it really solidifies my original thought and I think a lot of us agreed with this of like the Apple
01:07:32
Vision Pro feels like it was a dev kit that they sold to Consumers um and the
01:07:38
consumer aspect of it didn't work out quite as well yeah yeah it's a technology advancing like prototype that
01:07:46
they fixed the fit and finish on to sell it to people who are willing to spend a lot of money and arguably made it worse
01:07:52
to do that yeah I know I know and it's like as someone who really uses it a lot
01:07:58
it's it's one of the few Tech products I've used in the past year that really
01:08:06
just like lights a fire in me kill for fire right now question for you though
01:08:12
Ellis um you're using the studios unit you no absolutely I would never buy this
01:08:18
thing there was one problem there was one it's a magic piece of trash and I
01:08:24
love it and it's the best you can buy and it's not it's notth it and like
01:08:30
every no once or twice I've like gone on eBay you can get a used one let's like
01:08:36
2600 or something cheaper like 22 um still a lot of money even that is like
01:08:41
too much for me because it's like I could buy oh they're lower I'm seeing them for uh
01:08:48
18 oh yeah let's let's go to sold listings how do I do that cheapest one
01:08:54
13 138 9 was it broken no sealed Apple Vision Pro wow W
01:09:00
that's not a great look but it might be it's a 21 medium I don't know if like that's like oh little
01:09:07
little small head guy onethird of the value in one year uh I'm seeing 14 I'm seeing 26 I'm seeing 31 interesting okay
01:09:15
seems like they're selling all over the place clearly varies I'm not going to lie dude if someone came up to me on the
01:09:21
street and was like for 13 for 13 I might yeah I could see you considering that for 13 I think I I think I might do
01:09:27
it actually for 13 but I think anyway now what if it was made of plastic entirely and still worth and still cost
01:09:34
$1,300 but it still had the same experience and was lighter that sounds better to that's
01:09:40
what I'm saying but is that as nice Jesus chist I I just learned something about myself you like jul cuz I was like
01:09:46
yeah yeah cuz I was like I don't know about that like I don't want a plastic thing yep and this is probably what Apple was thinking too but I think
01:09:53
they're wrong damn so is are people like me just
01:09:58
impossible to satisfy yes yep yeah well before we go I wanted to ask you guys a
01:10:05
question what is the killer app that you think would ignite division Pros sales
01:10:13
that that would make you go $44,000 nothing yeah I love flat
01:10:22
screens and I love my laptop I don't know I don't need to it's it's
01:10:28
great it's fun it's awesome but the way I see it like you're just doing the same thing in a different Paradigm and I
01:10:35
don't like I'm not a sculptor right I could see from like a a 3D like
01:10:41
modeler's point of view yeah how this could be really incredible if you really like I don't know had tacti feedback or
01:10:47
something and it actually felt you were sculpting something for me I write words
01:10:52
I consume articles I don't need to do that in 3D Space versus on a flat
01:10:57
display yeah so yeah I think I just really don't see myself in a position of using it it would have to be
01:11:02
productivity wise because entertainment wise I think there's still something weird about you know I live in a house
01:11:08
with my wife and a kid now being inside of a Vision Pro feels really weird if they're in the same room as I am so like
01:11:15
maybe if I was single in an apartment and really liked watching a lot of sports and stuff like that maybe there's
01:11:21
some cool exterior sports apps that could fit in there but uh that chiot brought up a really good point that if
01:11:27
they nailed the soccer football experience oh my God like this thing
01:11:33
would would fly off the shelves I also want to note that like I think a lot of the reason a lot of people love like the
01:11:39
quest is because they can have like a YouTube video playing on the side while they're doing their dishes um all comes
01:11:46
back to the dishes no there's so many times I've like been on a FaceTime call
01:11:51
with someone in Vision Pro and then I'll just send them a screenshot and it'll be like the FaceTime call like you know a
01:11:57
pretty normal size and then I'll have like a 70 foot Family Guy funniest moments compilation like right next I'll
01:12:03
be like great call um so I got it we need to focus our
01:12:08
energy we need to we need to we need to be paying more attention to what we're doing at any given time no no no no no
01:12:15
no no no no we need Family Guy funniest moments compilations I think my killer
01:12:20
app killer experience I mean on top of my absolutely hilarious productivity app I that I'm still waiting for someone to
01:12:26
implement um where your tasks chase you around the house and the more important
01:12:32
tasks move faster and are scarier um yeah literally a killer app literally
01:12:39
nice now I I would like to see I so I am in this sort of unique space where I am one of the few audio professionals who
01:12:47
works more in headphones than on speakers that's like a pretty not normal
01:12:52
thing for audio folk and if I could get really killer audio integration like if
01:12:57
I could if there was a headphone check and I could like fully like use it
01:13:04
as like a sound card and have like truly no latency direct like I mean I guess I
01:13:10
can already do that out of my interface but I then I still have to have like this headphone core I don't know like to me that's where it comes in super clutch
01:13:16
is like when I'm in a mix and I'm wearing my headphones and I just want to like lock in that's a good point so like
01:13:24
you're using the Vision Pro as your main computer to do the right now I'm using
01:13:29
it in remot remote desktop exct same same difference and like I know I've talked to a bunch of mix Engineers who
01:13:35
all say man I want to mix in this thing um audio nerd moment uh one of the ways
01:13:45
we tell what we're hearing is our brain is constantly comparing the information
01:13:50
we have between our two ears part of the way sound makes it to our ears is it comes across our nose and our cheekbones
01:13:57
and is actually like directed across our face to our ears when you have a big
01:14:02
thing right here it makes it it makes stuff sound different um and and
01:14:07
sometimes it can be harder to have a clear perceive a clear stereo image with
01:14:13
ski goggles on your face you guys are missing the one thing that would make this instantly fly off the shelves even
01:14:19
at $4,000 I said soccer better GTA 6 if it had an exclusive game
01:14:28
dude that would be too much do you remember app's problem no but do you guys remember how gnarly it
01:14:34
was when GTA 5 came out on NextGen quote unquote nextg gen consoles Xbox One and
01:14:41
they added the first person mode which wasn't in the 360 release and everyone was like wait I don't like this no there
01:14:49
was this moment where everyone was like like GTA it's like fun to be irreverent in GTA but all of a sudden in first
01:14:56
person to yeah it's like this is less fun now I think um I think I think in in
01:15:03
VR it would be way too real when the when the Vive was the most popular headset in like 2015 there was a game
01:15:09
that came out that was basically like Call of Duty but first person and people loved it oh yeah yeah there okay I'm
01:15:18
going to close with this because I had a really interesting experience last weekend that I didn't think about Vision Pro but now I'm thinking about it as a
01:15:25
Vision Pro if you live in one of the cities where this movie is screening I highly suggest you go see it it's a movie called Grand Theft Hamlet if you
01:15:32
guys heard of this no you guys went to it Grand Theft Hamlet is a staging of Hamlet entirely within Grand Theft Auto
01:15:39
and when Mariah put it in slack I was like this sounds stupid I'll go see it it was so beautiful and I cannot stop
01:15:45
thinking about this movie after seeing it and that would be a pretty cool thing for Vision Pro if I could if I could
01:15:53
actually if this existed and the community existed this might be the thing cuz like I'm kind of interested in
01:16:00
in exploring theater especially after seeing this movie and I don't want to go
01:16:05
to a place I don't have enough time so if I could like wear this thing and use my creepy Apple Persona as a character
01:16:12
on a stage and read uh a soliloquy so like Live
01:16:18
Events I guess I'm thinking specifically like theater like something that you have multiple people and you're
01:16:23
interacting and you're and you're playing and and you like kick a ball and it goes into a net no well maybe maybe
01:16:30
for yeah okay all right my co-hosts are freezing I'm somehow doing fine normally
01:16:37
I'm the cold one this is weird um anyway I'm going to wrap it up here I want to give a big big thank you to jihat and
01:16:45
Greg for coming on the show you can find jihat on Blue Sky Twitter Mastadon we'll
01:16:50
put his links in the show notes and if you're watching the video it'll be somewhere on the screen Gregor is there
01:16:56
anything that you would like to share about yourself about developing for Vision Pro something that you feel like
01:17:02
people might not know without you telling them just anything before you wrap up the call yeah just one thing
01:17:09
like I know there are a lot of developer who develop IOS app and I really encourage them to to step into 3D world
01:17:17
it's like a it's not it's not that are and if they they are able to to build stuff in in 3D in 2D it's okay in 3D and
01:17:25
Greg is also on Twitter um also don't forget if you are a Dev if you're
01:17:31
interested in Indie development I highly recommend checking out jihad's blog that
01:17:36
is fli ndev um again thank you guys so much for speaking with us you were so helpful so
01:17:43
informative uh and probably a little annoyed talking to someone who knows as little about the stuff as I do anyway
01:17:50
I'm Ellis that's Andrew that's David Adam's over there we're free freezing
01:17:55
we're going to rap what does Marquez do he goes peace catch you guys in the next one yeah
01:18:00
catch you guys in the next one sounds s of forc Ellis out keep this Ellis out
01:18:08
waveform was produced by Adam Elina and Ellis Roven we're partnered with Fox Media podcast Network under TR music was
01:18:13
created by V Sil bingo [Music]
01:18:25
oh [Music]
