00:00:00
No more doc for me. Wow, it's committing
00:00:02
to it. I'm committing. I like that. I
00:00:04
don't click on those things. I just I
00:00:06
just do command space. I'm going to do
00:00:07
that, too.
00:00:08
>> I'm going to hide my doc. Is this
00:00:10
something we can all agree on?
00:00:11
>> I'm a raycast.
00:00:11
>> I was going to say
00:00:12
>> I can't.
00:00:13
>> The real end to this whole debate is
00:00:14
everyone has way too many tabs open and
00:00:16
just do whatever you want. I thought it
00:00:18
was fun.
00:00:19
>> Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked
00:00:20
Arc in the first place cuz I have way
00:00:21
too many tabs open and it closes them
00:00:23
for me. You don't want Arc. You want an
00:00:25
AI browser by Atlassian.
00:00:33
Yo, what is up people of the internet?
00:00:35
Welcome back to another episode of the
00:00:36
Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm
00:00:38
Marquez.
00:00:38
>> I'm Andrew.
00:00:39
>> And I'm David.
00:00:40
>> This week, we've got NASA coming back
00:00:42
from the moon. Sick. Uh, Chrome adding
00:00:44
vertical tabs, uh, which we can talk
00:00:47
about if they're actually better or not.
00:00:49
>> What? Uh, Samsung messages shutting
00:00:51
down, anthropic project Glass Swing, and
00:00:53
how A&C to headphones is causing
00:00:55
potential safety issues, and how a car
00:00:57
company's trying to fix that. And we'll
00:00:58
end it all with Andrew's whoop rant
00:01:02
part.
00:01:04
I also put and like four times in there,
00:01:06
so it just sounded like you did a really
00:01:07
run-on sentence. That's my fault.
00:01:09
>> Hey, it's the intro. It's got to be a
00:01:11
run on. Uh, but first, did they even
00:01:13
test this?
00:01:14
>> I have a really fast one.
00:01:15
>> No one's on Pixel right now, right? So,
00:01:17
none of you have experienced this. The
00:01:19
new flashlight.
00:01:20
>> Hold on to greener pastures.
00:01:22
>> Nah.
00:01:23
>> Nah. Mine's greener. Mine's greener for
00:01:25
sure. You're yellowower. Um, the new
00:01:28
flashlight quick setting is driving me
00:01:30
insane. Um, this only happens in Google
00:01:33
quick settings and only if it is the two
00:01:36
by the 2 by one tile width
00:01:39
>> specific.
00:01:40
>> So, pressing the button, if you press
00:01:43
just the little tiny circle of the
00:01:44
flashlight icon, it turns the flashlight
00:01:46
on. But if you press the whole thing,
00:01:48
>> the setting comes up, which is
00:01:49
flashlight strength, which I think is a
00:01:51
good setting.
00:01:52
>> And it turned on.
00:01:53
>> It turns it on. But then you press, you
00:01:55
can either press turn off or done and it
00:01:57
stays on. I think the more specific
00:02:02
uh adjustments should be the little
00:02:04
button and the big button should just be
00:02:06
on and off. This every time I turn this
00:02:08
on, I get a menu setting and I hate it.
00:02:11
>> And I think you're saying if you want to
00:02:13
be specific, that should be the smaller
00:02:15
touch real estate.
00:02:16
>> 100%.
00:02:17
>> Okay.
00:02:17
>> No, that reminds me.
00:02:18
>> Thank you. I wonder if anyone else is
00:02:19
having everyone I've asked to test this
00:02:21
presses the little button and I'm like
00:02:23
am I in
00:02:24
>> I mean that's fair but regardless like a
00:02:25
bigger touch target should be the more
00:02:27
common use
00:02:27
>> the more general thing right okay thank
00:02:29
you
00:02:29
>> reminds me of okay when on the dynamic
00:02:31
island on the iPhone I think I said this
00:02:33
in the review uh
00:02:34
>> are you back on the air
00:02:36
>> I'm on the air uh I just I'm using
00:02:39
another camera phone with like an
00:02:40
incredible camera so let me try to use
00:02:42
the air
00:02:42
>> that was a fair question you sound a
00:02:44
little offended by him I'm asking
00:02:45
>> no I mean I think that was a totally
00:02:47
fair question
00:02:47
>> this is the first time stuck to the Air
00:02:49
for more than two days.
00:02:50
>> I want to try the Air, but I don't want
00:02:51
to spend $1,000 to try the Air.
00:02:53
>> Yeah.
00:02:53
>> Yeah.
00:02:54
>> Uh it's the only black phone they sell.
00:02:55
So
00:02:56
>> Oh, fair.
00:02:57
>> Uh so, uh the dynamic island when you're
00:02:59
playing media, you can either long press
00:03:01
it, which brings up the little popup, or
00:03:03
you can tap it, which brings up the
00:03:05
whole app. I think I felt since the
00:03:07
beginning that that should be the other
00:03:08
way around. I should tap it to show the
00:03:10
controls, or I should long press it to
00:03:12
dive into the app.
00:03:13
>> I Yeah, that sounds exactly the same.
00:03:16
Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:17
>> The the things that can happen
00:03:19
accidentally should be the less annoying
00:03:21
things that happen.
00:03:23
>> So like tapping both of those should
00:03:24
just be the really quick thing that
00:03:26
happens where the in more intentional
00:03:28
version of it should be the more
00:03:30
granular.
00:03:31
>> Yeah.
00:03:31
>> That kind of related to that. Uh you
00:03:34
know how pulling down on the iPhone on
00:03:36
the left brings up like one menu setting
00:03:38
and bringing down the one on the right
00:03:40
brings out the the quick settings.
00:03:41
>> On the left is notifications on the
00:03:43
right is quick settings. Yeah.
00:03:44
>> Yeah. That's annoying because to get to
00:03:46
notifications is really hard, especially
00:03:47
on the Macs. Like I can almost never do
00:03:50
it. Um, and it makes sense to want to
00:03:52
get to quick settings like quicker, but
00:03:53
I can almost never get to the
00:03:55
>> What do you think you go into more
00:03:57
settings or notifications?
00:03:59
>> Quick settings because if I want to do
00:04:00
notifications, I just lock my phone and
00:04:02
then swipe up.
00:04:03
>> Oh, interesting.
00:04:04
>> That's funny. That is faster.
00:04:05
>> Yeah, that's actually my tick, you know?
00:04:07
>> Lock swipe up.
00:04:08
>> Yeah. When I'm like anxious, I don't
00:04:09
know what to do and I'm just like kind
00:04:10
of unlocking my phone, I'm like
00:04:11
notification, notification. Your
00:04:13
unlocked number must be crazy high after
00:04:15
they Yeah.
00:04:16
>> Do they track that?
00:04:17
>> They probably do. Oh,
00:04:18
>> we should all look at
00:04:19
>> Your phone can track it. You can see it.
00:04:22
Digital well-being or uh I forget what
00:04:24
it's called on iPhone.
00:04:24
>> Is that on Android?
00:04:25
>> It's called the same thing.
00:04:26
>> It's called the same thing. Digital
00:04:27
>> digital uh Oh, on Oh, no. It's called
00:04:29
like screen screen time. Yes.
00:04:32
>> Which, by the way, I looked at my screen
00:04:34
time this week and it was not good. I
00:04:37
was monitoring the situation.
00:04:39
>> Are you on iPhone?
00:04:40
>> Yeah. Did you turn off joint device
00:04:42
screen time? Cuz by default it sums
00:04:45
every device that's signed into your
00:04:46
iCloud account. Oh, really?
00:04:48
>> Yeah. I used to be like, how do I have
00:04:49
18 hours of screen time? And then I
00:04:51
realized, oh, it has my entire workday
00:04:53
of
00:04:54
>> which I usually have my devices maybe.
00:04:57
>> And that doesn't actually track if
00:04:58
you're looking at it.
00:04:59
>> No. So if if you have like um Jolt of
00:05:02
Caffeine or something on like you can
00:05:05
have 24 hours of screen time.
00:05:07
>> Oh wow. Okay. But maybe they turn this
00:05:10
was like as of a year and a half ago.
00:05:12
>> Yeah. Anyway, that was a good one.
00:05:14
Andrew, I I agree with you that the
00:05:16
bigger touch target should be the more
00:05:18
use.
00:05:19
>> If I can quickly shut up be the
00:05:22
>> shut up.
00:05:24
>> Just agreed with me.
00:05:26
>> I feel like the reason why the more
00:05:29
complicated thing is the tap is because
00:05:32
they measure time it takes to do
00:05:35
something and that's what they're
00:05:36
optimizing for. I'll fully admit that
00:05:38
the reason they did that is probably
00:05:40
based on the literal statistics that
00:05:42
they have on the phone. I just think
00:05:44
those stats are wrong.
00:05:46
>> Yeah, but feelings don't care about your
00:05:47
facts, Andrew.
00:05:49
>> Come on. All right,
00:05:51
>> let's talk about
00:05:52
>> Let's talk about
00:05:53
>> Hey, this week
00:05:54
>> rockets
00:05:55
>> NASA sent people around the moon.
00:05:59
>> I don't think I can name all the
00:06:00
planets.
00:06:00
>> Is the moon a planet, Andrew?
00:06:02
>> It's very specifically worded. There are
00:06:04
so many interesting things about this
00:06:05
and I just figured we could just pop
00:06:07
through some of the most fascinating
00:06:08
ones. First of all, the Aremis 2 mission
00:06:11
is what it's called. These four
00:06:13
astronauts went, they launched, they
00:06:16
slungshot around Earth, they then flew a
00:06:20
quarter million miles to the moon,
00:06:22
slungshot around the dark side of the
00:06:24
moon, and then came back to Earth. And I
00:06:26
think by the time you listen to Friday,
00:06:27
that's when they splashed down in the
00:06:28
ocean. So, like a week-long mission and
00:06:32
about uh 45 minutes of that was spent
00:06:34
behind the moon, which is the farthest
00:06:36
any humans have ever been from Earth.
00:06:38
>> So cool.
00:06:39
>> Um they took some incredible photos from
00:06:41
back there and they also sent them back
00:06:44
to Earth for us to look at before they
00:06:45
even got back here. And the photos are
00:06:47
incredible.
00:06:48
>> They're so sick.
00:06:48
>> And I have so many thoughts. Okay, first
00:06:50
thing we started seeing is uh this is
00:06:52
one of the this is I guess the first
00:06:53
mission where the astronauts were
00:06:54
allowed to bring personal devices into
00:06:57
space, meaning their iPhones and Android
00:06:59
phones. And so we did get images from
00:07:02
their smartphones as well sent back.
00:07:04
>> And that's awesome. That's really
00:07:07
interesting. Probably some of the best
00:07:08
moon photos any phone has ever taken cuz
00:07:10
they're super close to it. We all like
00:07:12
to think we can take moon photos from
00:07:14
our phone, but
00:07:14
>> the Earth photo was the one
00:07:17
>> that was popping off on Twitter.
00:07:18
>> Yes. which was very funny.
00:07:21
>> They looked great. They uh they took
00:07:24
photos out the window of their space
00:07:27
shuttle and you could see like Earth
00:07:29
rise as they got further and further
00:07:30
from Earth. The Earth got smaller and
00:07:31
smaller and then they got closer and
00:07:32
closer to the moon and the moon got
00:07:34
bigger and bigger until they like
00:07:35
slingshot around the moon. I had to
00:07:36
Google this. They went within like 5,000
00:07:38
miles of the moon surface to do that
00:07:40
gravity slingshot. So, they were really
00:07:42
close. I mean, in the scale in the scale
00:07:46
scale of the universe of the universe,
00:07:47
like they went 250,000 miles and then
00:07:50
they got within 5,000 miles of the moon.
00:07:52
I think that's pretty cool.
00:07:53
>> Compared to the biggest possible thing
00:07:54
we can measure, they were pretty close.
00:07:56
>> Yeah, it was pretty it was pretty
00:07:57
interesting.
00:07:57
>> Yeah.
00:07:58
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on the
00:07:59
shot on iPhone uh photos that we got
00:08:01
from Artemis? I thought they were pretty
00:08:03
cool.
00:08:03
>> I have some thoughts.
00:08:04
>> I thought they might end up as a
00:08:06
billboard pretty quickly.
00:08:08
>> Yeah. Some people had stakes against
00:08:10
that. They were like, "Let it just let
00:08:12
it just happen organically." And
00:08:14
>> it's fine if it's never a billboard, but
00:08:16
also missed opportunity from Samsung
00:08:17
because Samsung got
00:08:18
>> Well, I saw some funny memes cuz you
00:08:21
know the photos where they took the
00:08:22
photo of the moon in the foreground and
00:08:24
then Earth was in the background which
00:08:25
is like the opposite of what we usually
00:08:27
see.
00:08:27
>> There was a really funny meme where like
00:08:29
the moon was in the foreground and then
00:08:30
the background was a moon.
00:08:32
>> It's like shot on iPhone. I mean shot at
00:08:34
Samsung.
00:08:35
>> Samsung.
00:08:35
>> I was like
00:08:36
>> I saw a bunch of those like if Samsung
00:08:38
took this. I saw people complaining
00:08:39
like, "Wow, it's a real shame they
00:08:42
didn't use a Samsung for this photo with
00:08:43
it zoom." It's like, you're in space.
00:08:45
>> You're literally in front of the moon.
00:08:47
Why do you need
00:08:48
>> You don't need the zoom. You're in
00:08:49
space. This is literally the opposite.
00:08:51
Also, it was the iPhone selfie camera
00:08:54
>> from the selfie camera. Yeah. I mean,
00:08:56
okay, I might get cancelled for this.
00:08:58
>> Do it.
00:08:58
>> But I
00:08:59
>> Maybe not. I'm just kidding.
00:09:01
>> No, I I just don't think it's People are
00:09:02
like, "Wow, it's insane that this is the
00:09:04
selfie camera." And I was like, "Well,
00:09:06
yeah, you can." I thought it was cool
00:09:08
>> if you took Yeah, it is cool. But it's
00:09:10
like Yeah, it's the selfie camera. I
00:09:11
mean, you can do
00:09:13
>> photos with the selfie camera. Like,
00:09:14
what's what's so insane about that?
00:09:17
>> I guess it's like I think more so is
00:09:19
that this photo itself is incredible
00:09:21
because it's Earth and we just don't see
00:09:23
it. It really has nothing to do with the
00:09:25
camera. Any phone could have basically
00:09:27
taken that picture.
00:09:27
>> It's just the perspective. It's not even
00:09:29
so much about the phone that's taking
00:09:31
it. It's that we have all these like
00:09:33
when you open your phone camera roll and
00:09:35
you see the photos you took and that's
00:09:37
your perspective from the last couple
00:09:38
days and you know what a photo from your
00:09:40
phone usually looks like.
00:09:42
>> It's just crazy to think that
00:09:43
>> their camera roll they open it up and
00:09:46
it's a photo looking down on Earth from
00:09:49
250,000 miles away and like a a shot of
00:09:53
the moon which is somehow right next to
00:09:55
them. Like that's just such a crazy
00:09:56
thing to imagine
00:09:58
>> and it I it kind of I don't know
00:10:00
humanizes it or like puts it into
00:10:02
perspective for us to appreciate that
00:10:03
that's
00:10:04
>> really how it looks to them sitting
00:10:06
looking out that window.
00:10:07
>> Yeah. Pretty crazy stuff.
00:10:08
>> It'll be funny in like 20 years when
00:10:10
they're scrolling really far back in
00:10:12
their gallery one day and
00:10:13
>> memories.
00:10:14
>> Oh yeah. This happened six years ago
00:10:17
just like six years ago today.
00:10:19
>> Yeah. What is the AI going to say? Like
00:10:21
it'll it'll show you your like lunch or
00:10:23
your dog. going to be like you on the
00:10:25
moon. Does it know that they were on the
00:10:27
moon? Like what is it going to say?
00:10:28
>> You know how you can track your location
00:10:29
in Google Maps like going back all the
00:10:31
way.
00:10:32
>> I wonder what happens.
00:10:32
>> Yeah. What is their find world would
00:10:34
have went crazy?
00:10:35
>> Faga world is like where did you go?
00:10:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you have people's
00:10:40
pins on find my where do you think those
00:10:42
pins went?
00:10:44
>> Just off the grid literally.
00:10:45
>> Yeah.
00:10:46
>> Yeah. Can I do a little camera breakdown
00:10:48
of all the cameras I used on this trip?
00:10:50
>> Okay. So, a lot of people were confused
00:10:52
why they were using the Nikon D5, which
00:10:54
is a camera that came out in 2016, and
00:10:57
uh I've been screaming about this for
00:10:59
years, and this is actually like finally
00:11:01
starting to get better. So, the reason
00:11:03
they use the Nikon D5 is because it has
00:11:04
very large pixel pitch. That's the size
00:11:06
of the the pixel on the sensor. If you
00:11:08
have a bigger pixel pitch, you get more
00:11:10
light per pixel, which means lower
00:11:12
noise. And for space photography, that's
00:11:14
very important because most of the
00:11:16
background is black.
00:11:17
>> Yeah. Not a lot of light.
00:11:18
>> Yeah. So some people are asking why an
00:11:20
issue with the Hasselblad. The
00:11:21
Hasselblad is 100 megapixels.
00:11:23
>> But each one of those pixels is tiny.
00:11:24
>> Very tiny. Yeah. Yeah. So 6.4 is very
00:11:28
big and like 10 years ago it was more
00:11:30
common to have a bigger pixel. It's only
00:11:31
20 megapixel camera, you know, which is
00:11:33
fine. Like that's still a lot of
00:11:34
resolution for like if you want to use
00:11:36
as a desktop wallpaper or something like
00:11:38
that. It looks very DSLR. They did also
00:11:41
use a Nikon Z9, which is Nikon's like
00:11:43
flagship camera that's out right now.
00:11:46
That has a pixel pitch of 4.35
00:11:48
micrometers, so it's a little bit
00:11:49
smaller. Still very good. 45.7
00:11:51
megapixels. Obviously, they're going to
00:11:53
want to be able to zoom in on some of
00:11:54
these pictures.
00:11:55
>> Yeah.
00:11:56
>> They used a GoPro Hero 4 Black, which I
00:11:59
saw some really cool photos of.
00:12:01
>> Make that an Instagram post.
00:12:03
>> Yeah. In the Instagram post.
00:12:04
>> Yep.
00:12:05
>> He's like seven or eight years old at
00:12:07
this point. We're on Hero 11 or 12 or
00:12:10
something, I think.
00:12:11
>> Yeah, I was kind of curious why they did
00:12:12
that. It might have been a similar thing
00:12:14
with a bigger pixel pitch. I didn't
00:12:15
actually look at what that pixel pitch
00:12:17
was.
00:12:17
>> I think what happens is these programs
00:12:20
take so many years to build that they're
00:12:22
not using typically state-of-the-art
00:12:24
like when they build this this Artemis 2
00:12:27
thing. They're they're using the 2019
00:12:29
2020 cameras when they start building
00:12:31
it. So even though there's newer cameras
00:12:33
available today, that's the stuff that
00:12:35
they started with when
00:12:36
>> seems like that would be the easiest
00:12:37
thing to just switch out though. You
00:12:39
know,
00:12:39
>> they're probably similar resolution, but
00:12:41
like computers and and dimensions and
00:12:43
stuff, they just lock that stuff in.
00:12:45
>> It's it's the same reason like the
00:12:46
software used to record the podcast, the
00:12:48
stuff called Wild Tracks. And like we're
00:12:50
generally like six or seven versions
00:12:52
behind the most recent version because
00:12:55
like god forbid, you know, like we just
00:12:58
can't validate every single aspect of if
00:13:01
we use one too many threads and it
00:13:03
interacts with the lighting software
00:13:05
weird and it crashes and we lose an
00:13:06
episode. I'd much rather miss a few
00:13:08
features
00:13:09
>> and know it works. You know,
00:13:11
>> don't test in production.
00:13:12
>> And that's on a podcast. Like picture it
00:13:14
in space.
00:13:16
>> There's no Best Buy in space. If
00:13:18
anything, GoPro really should have done
00:13:21
the marketing campaign because they're
00:13:22
like a tiny company.
00:13:24
>> Way more up there.
00:13:25
>> I don't know if they're allowed yet. I
00:13:27
saw someone say because NASA's like
00:13:30
government funded and everything like
00:13:31
you would have to reach out to the
00:13:33
individual astronaut and ask them for
00:13:35
their permission,
00:13:37
but
00:13:37
>> there was a lot of misinformation
00:13:38
online. People were saying, "Oh, Apple
00:13:40
probably paid for and like no, there was
00:13:42
there was actually confirmation that
00:13:43
none of these companies paid
00:13:45
>> to have their devices." Wild to think
00:13:47
that when you just look at like these
00:13:49
astronauts are from the US and what the
00:13:50
US iPhone market share is, it's really
00:13:52
easy to deduce that they probably have
00:13:54
an iPhone. By the way, everyone's like,
00:13:57
"Why Nikon? Why not Canon?" Nikon was
00:13:59
the first ever camera in space. And the
00:14:02
reason that happened was because one of
00:14:03
the astronauts just happened to be a
00:14:05
photographer and he bought a Nikon like
00:14:07
before he went up into space and he just
00:14:08
took some pictures. And that was before
00:14:10
that was before Hasselblad. That's
00:14:11
before Hasselablad started making their
00:14:14
um their custom Hasselablad cameras for
00:14:16
for space, which they left some of those
00:14:18
cameras on the moon, which they should
00:14:20
have just retrieved them because they've
00:14:21
been there since 1969 or whatever.
00:14:24
>> Oh, the cameras are still on the moon.
00:14:25
>> Yeah, the cameras are still on the moon.
00:14:26
They just took the film backs. Wow.
00:14:27
>> Because they did they needed as least
00:14:29
the as little weight possible to be able
00:14:31
to get back
00:14:31
>> space litter.
00:14:33
>> We should go retrieve those. Next, we
00:14:35
Yes, we have the iPhone 17 Pro Max for
00:14:37
the candid photos uh of the moon through
00:14:40
the window, which I think was very sick.
00:14:42
>> Those are fun. They're just very sick.
00:14:43
They're very cool. Yeah,
00:14:44
>> they had 80 to 400 mm lenses for
00:14:47
close-up shots of the moon. Those shots
00:14:49
look insane.
00:14:50
>> Yeah. I mean, we get the most detail
00:14:52
we've ever seen of the moon.
00:14:54
>> I think my favorite shots are the ones
00:14:55
that are wide angle through the window
00:14:57
of the of the spacecraft, so you can see
00:14:59
like the window frame and then you see
00:15:01
what they see outside the window frame.
00:15:02
Yeah,
00:15:03
>> it it's like I it's hard to picture what
00:15:06
it would be like to be on the
00:15:07
spacecraft, but those are the shots that
00:15:09
help me best understand what they're
00:15:11
seeing.
00:15:11
>> Yeah,
00:15:11
>> it's crazy.
00:15:12
>> Yeah. And then overall there were 28
00:15:14
cameras placed inside and outside uh the
00:15:16
spacecraft, which is very cool. If you
00:15:18
go to the NASA website, they're they've
00:15:19
been uploading all of these basically in
00:15:21
real time. I mean, with a slight delay
00:15:23
at the speed of light. Uh but they're
00:15:25
really cool. If you download the
00:15:26
original images, you can get all the
00:15:28
metadata for it. Um and these are very
00:15:30
good OLED wallpapers. And I don't think
00:15:32
that they're going to be OLED, you know,
00:15:35
right as you download them. But if you
00:15:36
take them into Photoshop and you lower
00:15:38
the black point to zero, then they'll
00:15:39
become OLED. They look incredible.
00:15:40
>> So yeah, I'm definitely planning on
00:15:42
using one of these as a wallpaper for
00:15:45
sure. My favorite photo that I've linked
00:15:47
in the dock, which is the second link
00:15:49
there. It's on Flickr. Uh is the eclipse
00:15:52
that they saw. So when they flew around
00:15:55
to the dark side of the moon, there were
00:15:57
there's a brief moment where
00:15:59
the sun was behind the moon and the side
00:16:02
of the moon was being lit up by a
00:16:04
reflection of the earth. So they had the
00:16:05
the rarest solar eclipse of all time.
00:16:08
Nobody other than these four people have
00:16:10
ever seen this perspective of a solar
00:16:11
eclipse.
00:16:12
>> And they took a photo of the moon, which
00:16:14
is just this ball floating in space in
00:16:16
front of them
00:16:17
>> on a Z9. It's like a two- second
00:16:19
exposure. And it's just the trippiest. I
00:16:22
can't believe it's a real photo. It's
00:16:23
insane.
00:16:24
>> Yeah.
00:16:24
>> Uh and then all the background. You see
00:16:26
all these stars and planets lined up and
00:16:28
galaxies in the background behind them.
00:16:30
Incredible wallpaper material. Uh one of
00:16:33
my favorite photos I've ever seen for
00:16:34
sure.
00:16:35
>> Yeah. No, it's it's absolutely great.
00:16:37
>> It's already the wallpaper on my phone.
00:16:38
>> The glow in the back. It's awesome.
00:16:40
Yeah.
00:16:40
>> Yeah.
00:16:41
>> Uh one more thing that a lot of people
00:16:42
were curious about, they did live stream
00:16:44
a lot of this. I remember watching the
00:16:46
launch on NASA's YouTube channel on last
00:16:50
Wednesday. There was like 2.8 8 million
00:16:53
concurrent viewers, which is pretty
00:16:54
sick. What a lot of people don't know is
00:16:56
they kept streaming
00:16:57
>> for a week and showing like the
00:17:00
perspective of the astronauts as they
00:17:01
got closer to the moon and farther from
00:17:02
the Earth. And uh you might be wondering
00:17:05
how they did that because there's no
00:17:06
internet in space.
00:17:08
>> Yeah. um they just were sending
00:17:10
information directly back to I think
00:17:12
there's a series of three satellites on
00:17:14
Earth where at least one of them is
00:17:16
always pointing towards the moon or one
00:17:18
of them is always pointing towards the
00:17:20
spacecraft no matter where they were in
00:17:22
orbit. So they were always able to send
00:17:23
data back to Earth and that's how we
00:17:25
have you know this little super low res
00:17:27
but effectively live stream of the
00:17:29
astronauts and it's it's one light
00:17:31
second away top so it's not that much of
00:17:33
a delay as they send that information.
00:17:34
So
00:17:35
>> pretty cool.
00:17:35
>> Pretty awesome. Crazy they could live
00:17:37
stream this whole thing. Yet Netflix
00:17:39
constantly can't get Love is Blind
00:17:41
reunion streamed properly on time.
00:17:43
>> There's more demand for that, Andrew.
00:17:45
>> For Love is Blind.
00:17:46
>> Yeah.
00:17:46
>> Yeah, I know.
00:17:48
>> Yeah.
00:17:48
>> I think they'd get it right.
00:17:49
>> Yeah. If you want to go see those
00:17:51
photos, download those pictures, go to
00:17:52
the NASA website. We could link that in
00:17:54
the show notes to make it easier.
00:17:56
Speaking of I really don't know how to
00:17:58
make this transition.
00:17:59
>> Things that don't exist.
00:18:00
>> Things that don't exist. Are you
00:18:03
>> We can joke saying allegedly every time
00:18:06
you guys have talked about
00:18:07
>> we can joke about that.
00:18:08
>> I don't even want to put it in.
00:18:10
>> We will believe that this is real.
00:18:11
>> No. No. Stop. Don't put it in.
00:18:15
>> Shoon is real.
00:18:16
>> Come on.
00:18:17
>> There is a moment There is There is a
00:18:19
thing happening on social media where
00:18:20
there's way more conspiracy theory
00:18:22
content. Yeah. Because I don't even know
00:18:24
how to talk about it. It's just like
00:18:26
obviously bait and it's engagement bait,
00:18:29
but it's also like
00:18:30
>> there's never been so much of it and
00:18:31
it's never been so easy for dumb people
00:18:33
to see it and probably just jump right
00:18:36
along and believe it or weird.
00:18:39
>> Like you said, it's al it's like that
00:18:41
and rage bait where people want to feel
00:18:43
smart by saying no, you're wrong and
00:18:45
stupid, which is engagement and makes
00:18:47
that person money.
00:18:48
>> Yeah.
00:18:48
>> Yeah. So, don't engage. See the rage
00:18:51
bait. Just keep scrolling.
00:18:52
>> Yeah.
00:18:53
>> That's how you win,
00:18:54
>> dude. This this question, what was the
00:18:56
first camera in space is so interesting
00:18:59
because it begs the question, what is
00:19:01
space? And also, what is a camera?
00:19:04
>> Yeah,
00:19:04
>> this is so this is like bonus episode
00:19:06
gold, right?
00:19:07
>> Yeah, maybe we should do that. I know
00:19:09
that the NASA has been licensing or been
00:19:12
using Nikon cameras since like 1971 or
00:19:14
something.
00:19:15
>> 71. Yeah.
00:19:15
>> Yeah, I knew that.
00:19:17
>> There's some interesting officially.
00:19:18
>> There's some interesting stuff in here.
00:19:20
>> Yeah. The original Moonrise photo was at
00:19:21
Hasselblood, right? Muselblad was the
00:19:23
first camera that night that NASA was
00:19:26
like, "We're going to work with a camera
00:19:27
company and make a space camera." John
00:19:29
Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a
00:19:32
Minulta that he had modified by NASA to
00:19:35
be able to hit with a space suit. But
00:19:37
then
00:19:38
>> uh in ' 61, like a year a few months
00:19:41
before that, a cosminot brought a 16
00:19:44
millimeter camera, like a Soviet 16mm
00:19:47
camera, but then also seems like there
00:19:49
were submissions with automated TV
00:19:50
cameras out like There's there's some
00:19:52
interesting I think we should dive
00:19:54
deeper into this.
00:19:55
>> So Hassablad made special versions of
00:19:57
the Hassablad 500 series cameras that
00:19:59
basically are pump action because the
00:20:01
astronauts wear space suits. When you
00:20:03
the regular Hassabblad 500 CM has like a
00:20:06
small little shutter button that is like
00:20:08
very hard to even with your regular
00:20:10
finger it kind of like pricks your
00:20:11
finger a little bit. Not actually like
00:20:13
through your finger, but it's like kind
00:20:14
of hard to use. Anyway, bad design.
00:20:16
>> They made it a pump action and then
00:20:17
there's only three distance settings.
00:20:19
There's close, medium, and far. Um I
00:20:22
they made a replica series 20 years
00:20:23
later. They made a replica series of
00:20:25
those cameras that they made a thousand
00:20:27
of u which I own one of them because I'm
00:20:29
crazy. And uh they made these special
00:20:32
backs that could fit like way more film
00:20:34
than most cameras. But um I should have
00:20:37
brought that in. Maybe I'll bring it in
00:20:38
next week and I can show you guys. It's
00:20:39
pretty cool.
00:20:40
>> Sick.
00:20:41
>> Speaking of did
00:20:42
>> really cool things.
00:20:44
>> Yeah, I guess. I don't know. Yeah.
00:20:45
>> Speaking of really cool things. better
00:20:46
than what I had.
00:20:47
>> Rolls of something.
00:20:49
>> Rolls of Good call.
00:20:51
>> They weren't really rolls. They were
00:20:52
kind of
00:20:52
>> We did get to see
00:20:54
>> Zach from Jerry Everything do a tear
00:20:55
down of a phone that never shipped
00:20:58
because it's LG's rollable phone.
00:21:02
>> Uh fun fact, there's one in the mail
00:21:04
here now.
00:21:05
>> What?
00:21:06
>> Oh, like we got it. I know. It's on the
00:21:08
way.
00:21:08
>> I have my sources.
00:21:09
>> This is breaking news to us in the
00:21:11
studio.
00:21:12
>> Yeah, that's every week. That's every
00:21:14
week.
00:21:14
>> Yeah. So, so LG died in 2021 is when
00:21:18
they shut down their like smartphone
00:21:20
division. They stopped making phones.
00:21:22
>> Yeah. 2021, I believe that's right. Um,
00:21:25
and so
00:21:25
>> that's a that's like it's a crazy way to
00:21:27
say you murdered them.
00:21:28
>> No,
00:21:30
I was going to say the last two phones,
00:21:31
actually, the last two phones that they
00:21:33
shipped before they died was the V60 and
00:21:37
the LG Wing. And I had a lot of nice
00:21:38
things to say about the LG Wing, as
00:21:40
insane as that phone was. Um, but here's
00:21:43
the thing about phones like the LG Wing.
00:21:44
No one else would try that
00:21:46
>> and that's why we love LG and that's why
00:21:48
they're dead.
00:21:49
>> Yeah.
00:21:49
>> So, look, they also had a phone in the
00:21:51
works that was like a rollable phone
00:21:54
that went from a 5 and 1/2 in phone and
00:21:56
then kind of unrolled motorized like a
00:21:58
parchment
00:21:59
>> to an 8 in phone.
00:22:00
>> Yeah.
00:22:00
>> Uh,
00:22:01
>> we could have had it all rolling in the
00:22:02
deep.
00:22:06
>> Yeah,
00:22:06
>> that's a Is that street light?
00:22:10
>> Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So, Zack Zach got
00:22:13
his hands on one. We will as well soon.
00:22:15
And he immediately did a tear down,
00:22:16
which is so his style. And you can see
00:22:18
how overengineered this thing is.
00:22:19
There's two motors. There's two motors.
00:22:21
There's this metal track inside. There's
00:22:23
three spring-loaded arms. The whole
00:22:24
thing like like plays. It doesn't play
00:22:27
sound. It makes noise as it opens. Like,
00:22:29
>> and since it makes so much noise, they
00:22:32
play like a m like a musical chime to
00:22:34
sort of try to guess how loud that is.
00:22:36
So, it's really it's it's quite a a
00:22:38
piece of engineering. uh just like the
00:22:40
wing was. It's insane. And it never
00:22:43
shipped. We don't know what they would
00:22:44
have charged for it, what they would
00:22:45
have called it, how they would have
00:22:46
marketed it. Uh but I do plan on like
00:22:48
trying to use it. I'm excited to get
00:22:51
that. I um not seen the video, but I am
00:22:54
terrified at what that's going to be
00:22:56
like when he takes the knife to the
00:22:57
screen.
00:22:57
>> Oh, no. He doesn't do this.
00:22:58
>> He didn't do it in that video.
00:23:00
>> Thank god. Yeah.
00:23:01
>> Yeah. There's still time. He could do
00:23:02
that.
00:23:03
>> But I suspect a phone like this would
00:23:05
not be very durable. No,
00:23:06
>> it would not hold water and dust out
00:23:08
very well. Yeah,
00:23:09
>> it has the soft outer screen totally
00:23:11
exposed all the time.
00:23:13
>> No, that's what was really cool about it
00:23:15
is when it folds into the back, there's
00:23:18
a an exterior glass screen that it folds
00:23:21
underneath on the back side and then so
00:23:23
on the back it's not the soft touch
00:23:25
screen. I guess you're saying the front
00:23:26
of it is the soft touch all the time,
00:23:28
but the back works when it's not
00:23:30
unrolled as a back screen, which is
00:23:32
really cool. I actually like the way
00:23:34
they engineered this thing was really
00:23:36
impressive and probably would have been
00:23:38
better sense than the LG Wing. It kind
00:23:41
of was like remember the Xiai concept
00:23:43
that was like
00:23:45
>> we said like 200% screen to body ratio.
00:23:48
Yeah. Yeah. It basically had a screen
00:23:50
covering 60% of the back of it because
00:23:53
it rolled around the backside. Um but
00:23:55
the internals are really cool the way
00:23:57
kind of those spring-loaded arms are
00:23:58
actually pushing the whole battery and
00:24:00
internal module with the screen. Yeah,
00:24:03
>> there's some cool stuff. Definitely go
00:24:04
check out his video. But yeah, he
00:24:06
doesn't destroy it. He just actually
00:24:07
uses it and takes it apart. It's
00:24:10
>> the most careful I've ever seen Zach be.
00:24:12
He has a point where he's like, I am
00:24:14
shaking open this right now. And it's
00:24:16
really funny to watch.
00:24:18
>> That's not the type of vibe you want for
00:24:19
a phone that you use.
00:24:20
>> It's like a relic. It's like you don't
00:24:22
want to do any damage to it. I'm It'll
00:24:24
be interesting to see when we get it
00:24:25
here if like using it in real life cuz
00:24:27
you know the front screen is soft and
00:24:29
it's it's never really protected as you
00:24:30
use the phone. So, it's it's there's no
00:24:32
way it's as durable as a regular phone.
00:24:34
>> Yeah. No.
00:24:34
>> But, you know,
00:24:35
>> I do like that sort of half screen on
00:24:37
the back that he just uses to see like
00:24:39
his calendar and stuff like that. I
00:24:40
think that that's pretty smart.
00:24:42
>> Viewfinder for the camera.
00:24:43
>> Dang. I would I would buy this.
00:24:45
>> It's cool. You should definitely go
00:24:46
watch that. And I'm excited to see this
00:24:48
thing.
00:24:48
>> Yeah.
00:24:49
>> Speaking of alternate form factors
00:24:51
>> and never getting shipped. Well, I guess
00:24:53
it was shipped, but
00:24:54
>> Well, this might ship. This probably
00:24:55
will ship. iPhone Fold. Actually, this
00:24:57
entire week there's been articles both
00:24:59
about how the folding iPhone is maybe
00:25:02
delayed and not going to ship in 2026
00:25:05
and then maybe it's actually not so
00:25:07
delayed and it is going to ship in 2026.
00:25:09
>> And both of those articles were posted
00:25:10
from the same website on the same day,
00:25:12
>> which is why the only reason I added
00:25:14
this, I think it's so funny that Mac
00:25:15
Rumors had an article called foldable
00:25:17
iPhone engineering delays could push
00:25:19
launch to 2027 and also iPhone fold
00:25:22
expected to launch on time in September
00:25:23
despite delay rumors. So, is this what
00:25:25
hedging your bet looks like in real
00:25:26
time?
00:25:27
>> This is crazy. It's the nothing ever
00:25:29
happens theorem.
00:25:30
>> Yeah,
00:25:31
>> it basically both of these articles were
00:25:33
just two different sources saying what
00:25:36
they think is going to happen. One's
00:25:37
German, one's a Japanese newspaper, I
00:25:40
believe. Um, I cannot pronounce the name
00:25:43
of the who wrote the article, but uh,
00:25:46
the one thing I did find interesting in
00:25:49
terms of what they seem to agree on is
00:25:52
>> while this is most likely going to be
00:25:54
announced at the same time as the iPhone
00:25:56
18, even if it's quote unquote on time,
00:25:58
it probably will not be delivered the
00:26:00
same time as the iPhone 18.
00:26:02
>> Uh, so I have no idea
00:26:04
>> if this is going to be 2026. I think we
00:26:06
will see the announcement in 2026.
00:26:08
There's a chance this could be 2027.
00:26:10
Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time
00:26:11
we've seen like a staggered release of
00:26:14
the phones. I don't know if you remember
00:26:15
the mini and the plus when they came
00:26:17
out,
00:26:18
>> but that was only a month later.
00:26:19
>> It was only a month later.
00:26:20
>> Wasn't the iPhone 10 also a little after
00:26:22
the true 10 was after and and mini and
00:26:25
that was co that was like three though,
00:26:27
wasn't it? It was like a couple there's
00:26:29
three different dates of
00:26:31
>> I'm not going to remember the exact
00:26:32
order, but it was something like the
00:26:33
Mini and the Pro Max came out after the
00:26:39
regular and the Plus or something like
00:26:41
like a month and a half later.
00:26:42
>> Uh, which was, you know, easier to make
00:26:44
videos about cuz they were staggered and
00:26:46
separated. Actually,
00:26:47
>> do we want to take bets on this?
00:26:48
>> We already did.
00:26:50
>> Did we?
00:26:50
>> Oh,
00:26:51
>> we've definitely taken bets on if iPhone
00:26:53
Fold is coming out this year. Yeah, but
00:26:55
we got new information. So, do you think
00:26:57
that it will be announced and then come
00:26:59
out later, like in 2027, or do you think
00:27:02
it will be announced and come out in
00:27:03
2026?
00:27:04
>> I would not be shocked at all if we got
00:27:06
this big fancy folding iPhone Ultra and
00:27:08
they said coming early next year or
00:27:10
coming September.
00:27:12
>> Maybe not early, maybe December or
00:27:14
something like that. I could easily see
00:27:15
it being a staggered release to build
00:27:17
some hype.
00:27:17
>> That's a really stag How far away can it
00:27:20
be to still be considered a staggered
00:27:22
release? Uh, typically when they release
00:27:25
a new iPhone, it comes out like what,
00:27:26
two, three weeks later.
00:27:28
>> Yeah.
00:27:28
>> My take is that if you announce
00:27:30
something and then you wait too long,
00:27:32
people stop caring. Google had this
00:27:34
problem with the Pixel. Every time
00:27:36
Google's launched a Pixel Fold, it's
00:27:37
come out a couple months later and
00:27:39
people just forget.
00:27:40
>> Also, every Sony phone
00:27:42
>> Sony Yeah. Sony freaking announces them
00:27:44
in September and they always come out in
00:27:45
December and then no one buys it.
00:27:47
Shocker,
00:27:48
>> bro. That they were proud of that, too.
00:27:49
I remember I talked about like some of
00:27:51
the Sony stuff. It was like 10 months
00:27:53
later they come out with the phone and
00:27:55
then they finally made huge strides and
00:27:57
they were like Marquez
00:27:58
>> we came out with the phone only 3 months
00:28:00
after we announced it which is a big
00:28:02
improvement but it's still way too long
00:28:05
wait just wait till it's done and ready
00:28:07
to ship and then show it off and then
00:28:08
ship it anyway
00:28:10
>> that every company that's ever but yeah
00:28:13
uh I I think it would probably make
00:28:16
sense as like a month and a half
00:28:18
staggered here comes the ultra type of I
00:28:21
could see it.
00:28:22
>> I got a hot take.
00:28:23
>> We're going to see this at Dubdub.
00:28:26
>> See it? No shot. 0%.
00:28:27
>> I think there Well, no. Your whole
00:28:29
showing it off like with folding iPhone
00:28:30
be like coming later this I think that's
00:28:32
going to happen at Dub like we did with
00:28:34
the Vision Pro.
00:28:35
>> Yeah. And then the phone itself will
00:28:37
come out this year but later. That's
00:28:38
possible.
00:28:38
>> I have a I have a I'm so torn on this.
00:28:41
>> I love that take because I part of me is
00:28:43
like 0% no shot that happens. Dubdub is
00:28:45
for development and is for software and
00:28:47
any sort of hardware announcement
00:28:48
overshadows all the stuff they want to
00:28:50
show like iOS 28. But on the other hand,
00:28:54
the times that they do show new
00:28:56
hardware, it's specifically exciting to
00:28:58
developers and things like the Mac Pro,
00:29:00
which people could get excited to
00:29:02
develop on Vision Pro, which people
00:29:04
could get excited to develop for.
00:29:06
>> Yeah.
00:29:07
>> And folding phone. you know, if you're
00:29:09
making apps, you kind of want to start
00:29:11
thinking about how to optimize your app
00:29:13
for different screen sizes. So maybe it
00:29:15
does make sense
00:29:16
>> unless unless they basically just make
00:29:19
it so it's automatic and it basically
00:29:21
becomes an iPad.
00:29:22
>> I mean that's the thing they they'll do
00:29:24
for sure. That's going to be their
00:29:26
strength is like you add one line of
00:29:28
code and now it's amaz like you can make
00:29:29
an iPad app by clicking one button
00:29:31
basically.
00:29:31
>> Yeah.
00:29:32
>> But maybe you want to have some special,
00:29:34
you know, animation for the unfolding or
00:29:36
something. I don't know. I think it
00:29:38
makes sense like that. I just think
00:29:40
dubdubdub this year is going to be too
00:29:41
much worrying about having to renounce
00:29:43
Siri.
00:29:45
I don't think they're going to do it. I
00:29:46
think to cover that up.
00:29:47
>> Yeah, it'll be like look at the
00:29:49
excitement of the folding phone. Forget
00:29:51
about liquid ass.
00:29:52
>> But that's going to look so bad if it's
00:29:54
like we have to reounce the thing that's
00:29:56
2 years late and here's a thing that
00:29:58
might be late again.
00:29:59
>> I think they could spin it cuz you know
00:30:00
what started to happen?
00:30:01
>> Pretend anything's going to happen.
00:30:02
Well, the thing that I' the take I've
00:30:04
seen more and more online is that Apple
00:30:07
being late to AI has actually been the
00:30:10
best version of AI, which is, you know,
00:30:13
all these phones are just shoving AI
00:30:14
down our throats and Apple's kind of not
00:30:17
doing that so much. And that's
00:30:18
refreshing.
00:30:19
>> We appreciate it.
00:30:20
>> It's also because they stick to what
00:30:22
they're good at, which is good hardware.
00:30:24
>> It's also because Apple didn't really
00:30:25
spend billions of dollars investing in
00:30:27
this kind of stuff. And now that AI is
00:30:28
becoming so commodified, they kind of
00:30:31
have like their pick of the litter on
00:30:32
what they want to utilize, right? So
00:30:34
they they picked Gemini because they had
00:30:35
all these options.
00:30:37
>> They didn't have all those options when
00:30:38
chat GBT in the iPhone got announced.
00:30:40
That was like kind of the only thing
00:30:42
that they could do and now it's like
00:30:43
this awkward like middle child that's
00:30:45
like in the iPhone in a weird way and
00:30:47
they're probably going to get rid of
00:30:47
that. And
00:30:48
>> yeah,
00:30:49
>> it's nice that they can do it, but it's
00:30:51
also really funny knowing that they
00:30:53
tried and that was not the original plan
00:30:54
and that they failed. But they failed
00:30:56
upwards.
00:30:57
>> Yeah, they got very lucky on that.
00:30:59
>> They're going to fail fail upwards.
00:31:00
>> And their stock is the only one that has
00:31:02
not been impacted by AI stuff.
00:31:05
>> Yeah. You think of Apple as this huge
00:31:06
tech company and if AI is the next big
00:31:08
huge tech, then they must be a player in
00:31:12
that space, but they're not a player in
00:31:14
every space. They don't make everything.
00:31:17
So, you know, search engine they don't
00:31:19
make. They, you know, borrow the best
00:31:22
one and show it to their users as a
00:31:24
default. And maybe it's not released.
00:31:26
>> Well, yeah, exactly. They don't they're
00:31:28
not a public competitor in that space.
00:31:30
>> And I think that that's kind of ending
00:31:33
up true of AI where okay, there's all
00:31:35
these models, there's all these advanced
00:31:36
development. They tried to jump in, it
00:31:38
didn't really work, but they still their
00:31:40
bread and butter is still the device
00:31:42
that you use to do the AI stuff on.
00:31:44
People are clamoring to buy Mac Studios
00:31:46
that finally have enough VRAM. If you
00:31:48
could tether three of them together with
00:31:49
Thunderbolt, you can have a machine that
00:31:50
runs OpenClaw and everything's local.
00:31:52
Like that's people are buying Apple
00:31:54
hardware still
00:31:56
>> and that's probably going to continue to
00:31:57
be true.
00:31:58
>> Yeah. And I think ultimately they're
00:32:00
realizing that people use different AIs
00:32:03
for different use cases and so they just
00:32:05
want to be the the main thing that runs
00:32:07
the thing. They don't want to be
00:32:08
choosing what you use with it. Like
00:32:10
Apple intelligence at the end of the day
00:32:12
is just an extension of things that the
00:32:14
phone could basically already do. And so
00:32:17
that doesn't need to be the thing that
00:32:18
does everything. like you're going to
00:32:19
use cloud on your phone, you're going to
00:32:21
use Gemini on your phone, you're going
00:32:22
to use OpenAI, Chap GBT on your phone if
00:32:24
that's the service that you use.
00:32:26
>> Yeah.
00:32:26
>> And so, you know, Google obviously has
00:32:28
both and makes it, but at the end of the
00:32:30
day, that could be a negative for them
00:32:32
because if Google's trying to force you
00:32:34
to use Gemini and it things work better
00:32:35
with Gemini than they do with say Claude
00:32:37
and you're like a Claude power user, you
00:32:39
might be more incentivized to use the
00:32:42
iPhone that gives you more of a choice
00:32:44
to use what AI you want to use.
00:32:46
>> Yeah. So
00:32:47
>> there is no world in which that happens.
00:32:50
>> There's no way that Google the open one
00:32:53
would be more closed down with which
00:32:55
>> I'm not saying it would be closed but
00:32:57
but like Gemini is so embedded in
00:32:59
Android.
00:33:00
>> That's on like Gemini will always have
00:33:03
its uh
00:33:05
>> Yeah. And Android's high and its
00:33:06
inherent like abilities to do more, but
00:33:10
they're not going to actively make you
00:33:12
not use Gemini.
00:33:13
>> No, I know that. But it would be
00:33:15
annoying if you're doing various things
00:33:17
on your phone and it's prompting you to
00:33:19
use Gemini. It's actively trying to move
00:33:22
you towards a Gemini subscription.
00:33:24
>> Yeah, but I could just like right now I
00:33:25
could just change it to Claude like in
00:33:27
the settings.
00:33:28
>> Change what to cla
00:33:29
>> my my assistant.
00:33:30
>> I think that that's probably what people
00:33:32
are going to want from their phone is
00:33:33
the well integrated thing, which is why
00:33:36
it felt like it made sense for Apple
00:33:37
Intelligence to be really good because
00:33:38
that's going to be the one that works
00:33:40
the best across all these Apple
00:33:42
surfaces. It's going to pull my messages
00:33:43
and it's going to pull my Google my
00:33:45
calendar from Apple calendar and all
00:33:46
these other Apple things. So, I want the
00:33:48
Apple intelligence AI to be good on my
00:33:51
Apple device and of course Gemini will
00:33:53
be good across all these Google services
00:33:55
pull from my Google Drive, Google
00:33:56
Photos, Google whatever.
00:33:58
>> So, that's what we were hoping for from
00:34:01
Apple intelligence, but now they're just
00:34:03
kind of giving us the choice of other
00:34:04
ones that don't really talk to Apple
00:34:06
stuff.
00:34:06
>> Yeah.
00:34:07
>> Yeah.
00:34:07
>> Yeah.
00:34:07
>> I'm not a businessman. I don't know how
00:34:09
money works.
00:34:10
>> I'm a businessman. However, I've always
00:34:13
understood Google's whole business model
00:34:15
to be we're going to either sell our
00:34:18
hardware at a loss or with the slimmest
00:34:21
possible margin we can do.
00:34:23
>> Because you're going to use all these
00:34:25
Google services and we can harvest your
00:34:27
data.
00:34:28
>> Yeah.
00:34:28
>> And so I kind of agree with David. I see
00:34:30
going forward Google's going to be like
00:34:32
you're using Gemini because if someone
00:34:34
buys a pixel and then uses Claude,
00:34:36
they're losing money on that.
00:34:38
>> That's an L for Google.
00:34:39
>> You bought the pixel. Yeah.
00:34:42
Google. That's an
00:34:44
Yeah, I'm saying Google all of a sudden
00:34:45
is not making like they're still
00:34:47
harvesting all your data because they're
00:34:48
using a pixel, but they need the Gemini
00:34:50
data, I think, to really make it worth
00:34:52
it.
00:34:52
>> I think my thing is that no AI is making
00:34:55
money anyway. Google can just burn money
00:34:57
because they own the internet. No, but
00:35:00
Google will make money by getting
00:35:02
trained training data off of your Gemini
00:35:04
chats and then also using the data they
00:35:06
get from you via your Gemini chats to
00:35:08
make your ads more targeted.
00:35:10
>> But they're getting that data already
00:35:11
from the iPhone which is giving them a
00:35:13
billion dollars on top of that. I think
00:35:15
they need 3% of Pixel users to use
00:35:18
Gemini. They're going to let you use
00:35:19
Anthropic.
00:35:20
>> Guys, I think I might have just gotten
00:35:21
clapped back.
00:35:22
>> But what I'm saying but what I'm saying
00:35:23
is like Google is always going to be
00:35:25
pushing you towards Gemini, right?
00:35:27
because all of their services, all of
00:35:29
the things on the phone, like it's so
00:35:30
embedded into the phone
00:35:32
>> that it's easier to use Gemini. And so
00:35:34
if you're like a Claude super user, you
00:35:36
might be kind of annoyed that like now
00:35:38
half of my contact is in Gemini and the
00:35:40
other half is in Claude.
00:35:41
>> And whether or not that ends up being a
00:35:43
thing that incentivizes people to buy an
00:35:45
iPhone, it probably won't be. But it's
00:35:47
just kind of an interesting interaction
00:35:48
because of the way that AI has become
00:35:50
commodified. Well, more so my thing my
00:35:52
point was I don't think there's a world
00:35:54
where Apple is more open with that kind
00:35:57
of thing with sharing the context
00:35:58
between different AIs than Google.
00:36:00
>> I kind of disagree
00:36:01
>> specifically because Apple has the
00:36:03
servers that they're making with Google
00:36:06
in partnership. Like Anthropic has
00:36:07
servers from AWS, they have servers from
00:36:09
Azure. They have servers everywhere.
00:36:11
Apple is not going to let your data go
00:36:13
to some random server. They want control
00:36:14
of the server which they have a
00:36:15
partnership with Google.
00:36:16
>> Yeah. like the things that happen like
00:36:18
autonomously with the phone are
00:36:19
obviously like through Apple, through
00:36:21
Google, through those servers that are,
00:36:23
you know, nothing touches it. I just
00:36:25
think they care less about what AI that
00:36:27
you use versus Google really really
00:36:29
wants you to use Gemini and the market
00:36:30
incentives will probably push them
00:36:32
towards making Gemini the the choice
00:36:34
they want you to. You know,
00:36:36
>> I think you both have really really
00:36:37
valid points in the sense that I still
00:36:39
>> I really see where you're coming from
00:36:41
where it's like Google doesn't have as
00:36:42
much of an incentive to lock you into
00:36:44
Gemini as I thought they might have at
00:36:46
the outset of this conversation.
00:36:48
>> But also, I do think Apple's opinion on
00:36:51
this matter would change a lot more than
00:36:53
Google's when you're talking about just
00:36:55
like a normal generative transformer
00:36:57
versus something agentic that's like
00:36:59
monkeying around in your phone.
00:37:00
>> For sure. Yeah. I think there's also
00:37:02
probably a world where a lot of people
00:37:04
at Google believe that if you do use
00:37:07
>> I'm sorry, Andrew's face.
00:37:09
>> No, my pixel makes me want to never
00:37:11
touch Gemini.
00:37:12
>> Please, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go
00:37:14
ahead.
00:37:14
>> The look on Andrew's face was
00:37:15
>> I guess I think that there's probably a
00:37:17
lot of people at Google who believe that
00:37:19
they want you to use Gemini because that
00:37:21
represents like the next stage of all
00:37:24
the data harvesting that they do. And if
00:37:26
you start using a different AI and start
00:37:28
doing all these searches and all these
00:37:30
queries and all this stuff, that
00:37:31
represents a bunch of data that they're
00:37:32
not getting%.
00:37:33
>> And so if they're if they're allowing
00:37:36
people to move on from Gemini to a bunch
00:37:39
of other stuff and then they slowly get
00:37:41
less and less data from the old ways of
00:37:42
gathering data, then they missed jumping
00:37:44
the boat.
00:37:44
>> Yeah. I mean, think about this. They're
00:37:45
basically transitioning from Google
00:37:47
search being their primary revenue
00:37:49
driver to Gemini. So, if they're not
00:37:51
getting as if they don't have as many
00:37:53
Gemini users, that's like a huge impact
00:37:55
for them.
00:37:56
>> That's what I That's why
00:37:57
>> I'm just I'm trying to envision a world
00:37:59
where I can go into the iPhone settings
00:38:01
and change Siri to Claude versus going
00:38:04
into the Pixel settings and changing
00:38:06
Gemini to Anthropic, like to Claude. And
00:38:08
I'm trying to think which one is more
00:38:10
likely to happen
00:38:11
>> really
00:38:12
>> because just because of who's a player
00:38:14
in the game, I think like the way you
00:38:15
can choose your search engine now on the
00:38:17
iPhone, you could just move it from
00:38:18
Google to whatever you want.
00:38:20
uh is the same because they don't make
00:38:22
their own search engine. I think when
00:38:23
there is a claude, an anthropic and a
00:38:25
GPT and a Gemini, you can do that on the
00:38:28
iPhone and pick your model as well
00:38:29
because they don't have a competitor in
00:38:30
that space.
00:38:31
>> But but not to just regurgitate Adam's
00:38:33
earlier point, but like I totally think
00:38:35
that's the case with a chat. However, if
00:38:38
everyone's trying to get these agentic
00:38:40
models that can actually do stuff inside
00:38:43
your phone, I have it seems to me like a
00:38:46
more uphill thing getting Apple to let
00:38:49
an agent run on someone else's servers.
00:38:51
And I I can't believe Apple would want
00:38:53
us want to set up their own data centers
00:38:57
to run agentic other people's agentic
00:39:00
models. The agentic stuff is probably
00:39:01
going to be a local Gemini Nano model,
00:39:04
which is different from the things that
00:39:05
are hitting the servers.
00:39:06
>> Yeah, but that sucks. I want I want I
00:39:08
want local claude. I want local.
00:39:12
>> Yeah. And I don't think that Apple is
00:39:13
going to allow multiple different models
00:39:16
for that because they want the user
00:39:17
experience to be unique and the same
00:39:19
across all devices. I could see Apple
00:39:22
eventually working with Anthropic and
00:39:24
OpenAI for the stuff, the AI stuff that
00:39:27
happens in the cloud because then
00:39:29
they're creating a marketplace where
00:39:30
they can reduce the cost that they're
00:39:32
paying to those model providers and also
00:39:35
it gives people the option to, you know,
00:39:37
use whatever commodity that they use.
00:39:39
>> Hear me out. We do a bonus episode.
00:39:41
>> This feels like a Sorry. This is like a
00:39:43
whole episode. We get Tim Cook, we get
00:39:46
Sundar, we get Sam,
00:39:48
>> and we just go, who was right? Tell us
00:39:50
who was right. Which one of us was
00:39:51
right? Was it me?
00:39:52
>> I want to do a cage match.
00:39:53
>> This was not supposed to go on this
00:39:55
long.
00:39:55
>> We were talking about the iPhone 4.
00:39:56
>> Well, no, but it's an interesting is an
00:39:58
interesting question and it's one that
00:40:00
we will get the answer to, I think,
00:40:01
>> in a couple months.
00:40:02
>> In pretty soon. Yeah. So, uh and then
00:40:05
we'll find out who was right.
00:40:07
>> Yeah. Okay. And
00:40:08
>> you see that up by the moon? That's the
00:40:10
rails. We are so far off the rails. Wow.
00:40:12
>> I was going to add my one thing about AI
00:40:15
phones, which is my Pixel. I I came
00:40:18
across this thing the other day where I
00:40:20
was like, "My Google Home, my like Nest
00:40:23
doorbell isn't giving me notifications
00:40:25
anymore. What broke on this?" And I
00:40:27
realized I turned it off because I was
00:40:30
getting so annoyed at I changed my
00:40:32
Google Home camera stuff for the
00:40:33
notifications to like it says you can
00:40:36
use AI to search through activities that
00:40:38
happened. But what it really does is not
00:40:40
just that, but every time it sends a
00:40:42
notification, it's this like really long
00:40:44
terrible sentence about what may have
00:40:46
happened. And I got so annoyed at the
00:40:48
notifications of
00:40:50
>> like
00:40:51
>> a person
00:40:52
>> walks up from a delivery to the thing
00:40:54
just like I just want to see there's a
00:40:55
person at the door. That's all you have
00:40:56
to tell me. And having 30 of those
00:40:58
notifications. I guess I got so mad I
00:41:01
turned it off one day and forgot and
00:41:02
then realized a month later
00:41:04
>> and there aren't like granular settings
00:41:05
to
00:41:06
>> there might be something in there now. I
00:41:08
just wanted it to be able to search like
00:41:11
did somebody drop something off between
00:41:13
two and four
00:41:14
>> and that should work. that I think it
00:41:16
>> part works
00:41:17
>> but the notification notifications
00:41:19
verbose and it's in it's so bad and it
00:41:22
also even though
00:41:23
>> all of my family's faces are attached in
00:41:25
there
00:41:26
>> it correctly identifies the person one
00:41:29
out of 40 times
00:41:31
>> despite almost looking directly at the
00:41:34
camera like face scanning it
00:41:36
>> mine's pretty good I I remember the day
00:41:38
I started getting the new notifications
00:41:39
cuz it would always just be like person
00:41:41
person
00:41:43
movement person. Now it's like a UPS
00:41:46
driver dropped off a medium-sized box at
00:41:49
the door and I'm like I
00:41:51
>> But then you click that and it's like
00:41:53
Claire coming home with groceries.
00:41:56
>> It might have been I would say mine have
00:41:58
been like 90% way too accurate and then
00:42:02
10% totally off.
00:42:03
>> Oh, mine's 90% totally weird.
00:42:06
>> While we're talking about Ring, shout
00:42:07
out to the new Ben Jordan. Another
00:42:10
absolute banger. It's terrifying.
00:42:12
>> Surveillance. I just like to say hi to
00:42:14
everyone watching me when I
00:42:16
>> Yeah. All right. Well, um, that went
00:42:19
quite a while. Can someone transition?
00:42:21
>> Samsung Messages is getting shut down.
00:42:22
>> Yeah. Okay. Thanks.
00:42:23
>> I mean,
00:42:23
>> yeah,
00:42:24
>> it actually is a good segue because that
00:42:27
segue was as abrupt as Samsung shutting
00:42:29
down Samsung messages cuz they're
00:42:31
basically like, yo, peace, this gone
00:42:33
July.
00:42:34
>> That's kind of a segue within a segue.
00:42:36
What is Samsung messages?
00:42:37
>> So, maybe like a decade ago.
00:42:42
No, this is not I'll make it short. I'll
00:42:43
make it sure.
00:42:44
>> No, no, no. Yeah.
00:42:45
>> Samsung used to ship their own messages
00:42:47
app and you know, every, you know, you
00:42:49
bought a Samsung phone and there'd be
00:42:50
Samsung messages and have its own chime
00:42:52
and have it own layout. It was just
00:42:53
exactly like Google Messages or
00:42:54
whatever. And I would always actually go
00:42:56
to the Play Store and download Google
00:42:57
Messages cuz I liked it better. And then
00:42:58
one day, maybe five, six years ago, I'm
00:43:01
not sure exactly when, six or seven,
00:43:03
>> they six, seven years ago, they started
00:43:05
just shipping Samsung phones with Google
00:43:07
Messages by default. Like they stopped
00:43:09
shipping it with Samsung messages. they
00:43:11
still supported it and it still existed,
00:43:12
but they just accepted that people just
00:43:15
use Google messages when they buy an
00:43:16
Android phone. Uh, and now it's a couple
00:43:19
years later and they're like, "All
00:43:20
right, we're not going to keep
00:43:21
supporting Samsung Messages." So,
00:43:23
whatever servers, whatever service there
00:43:24
was, it's gone. If you still actually
00:43:27
use Samsung Messages,
00:43:28
>> be very careful.
00:43:29
>> Yeah,
00:43:30
>> the thread on the Samsung subreddit is
00:43:33
>> very upset. Well, if I'm on the Samsung
00:43:35
subreddit, I probably am more likely to
00:43:36
be a user of of Samsung messages.
00:43:38
>> That's crazy. Two month heads up. That's
00:43:41
why
00:43:44
pretty fast.
00:43:44
>> What happens when it
00:43:46
>> EOLS?
00:43:46
>> Uh I assume you can't send messages
00:43:48
using the app anymore.
00:43:49
>> That would be insane.
00:43:50
>> Um it's got to be.
00:43:52
>> It should just update and auto download
00:43:54
Google messages and replace it.
00:43:55
>> I mean, that's essentially what you're
00:43:57
going to want to do at this point.
00:43:58
>> Yeah, but it's crazy that they're making
00:43:59
people do that manually.
00:44:01
Well, I think they accepted that this
00:44:03
would happen at some point, like 5 years
00:44:04
ago when they stopped shipping it as a
00:44:06
default on their devices, but they
00:44:07
should have given people a heads up way,
00:44:09
way long ago when they stopped shipping
00:44:11
as a default that, hey, we're going to
00:44:12
shut this down at some point. They
00:44:14
probably just didn't know they were
00:44:15
going to do it. Now, they just decided
00:44:16
they're doing it and they're doing it in
00:44:18
two months. So,
00:44:19
>> yeah. Samsung, I doubt he's going to
00:44:22
know to update before June or July, you
00:44:24
know.
00:44:25
>> But is it update or is it also have to
00:44:27
download Google Messages? That's a great
00:44:28
question. I didn't understand what
00:44:30
you're Yeah. For the people who don't
00:44:32
know, not everyone's going to see this
00:44:33
thing. Are they just going to 3 days
00:44:36
later be like, "I haven't had a text in
00:44:37
a little while."
00:44:38
>> Guys, don't worry. It's totally okay.
00:44:39
Everyone knows Android users notoriously
00:44:42
awesome at keeping their phones up to
00:44:44
date. Okay. Literally the best user base
00:44:46
for hitting the update button. They're
00:44:47
going to be fine. Yeah.
00:44:49
>> The Verge says 2024 is when they started
00:44:51
shipping as a default, Google Messages.
00:44:53
I feel like it was way
00:44:54
>> possible. Well, they did it because of
00:44:55
RCS. They were trying to like really
00:44:57
force people onto Google Messages
00:44:59
because for a while Google Messages and
00:45:01
weirdly like Verizon messages were the
00:45:02
only app that supported RCS, right? And
00:45:05
then they had that weird bromance with
00:45:07
Google for a long time that sort of is
00:45:09
still in action but not as much anymore.
00:45:12
>> Yeah. I don't know. It's strange.
00:45:14
>> Can I rant about the time? Sorry, quick
00:45:17
tangent. I like it cuz it has to do with
00:45:18
>> First is going to be 57 minutes. The
00:45:21
next
00:45:23
>> I got ratioed so hard on threads. Oh
00:45:26
yeah. What did you do? What did you do?
00:45:28
Because I posted a screenshot of Google
00:45:32
messages on a Samsung device and I
00:45:34
circled the whole top half of the screen
00:45:36
just says Google messages like the logo
00:45:38
>> and I'm like why is this here?
00:45:40
>> Yeah, I agree with you.
00:45:41
>> That's so like half of the screen is
00:45:43
just unusable information.
00:45:44
>> Why would you get ratio for that?
00:45:46
>> Everyone was like bro just scroll. And
00:45:48
I'm like I know how apps work. I'm
00:45:50
saying why isn't there information here?
00:45:52
>> Wait, there was a moment where everyone
00:45:54
applauded that white space. They're
00:45:55
like, "Wow, how thoughtful. I can reach
00:45:57
my whatever."
00:45:58
>> So that's the whole point. Yeah, that's
00:45:59
why I'm getting ratio because one UI is
00:46:01
like for one-handedness. And it's like,
00:46:02
yeah, I know. I'm saying it's stupid
00:46:04
because if you go to like Samsung phone
00:46:06
app, they make use of that space. It's
00:46:09
not things that you can tap or whatever,
00:46:10
but it'll tell you like you have a
00:46:12
missed call, you have like useful
00:46:13
information.
00:46:14
>> Why don't I have that in other places?
00:46:15
>> I have a question for you. I because I
00:46:16
haven't used Google Messages in a while.
00:46:18
If you
00:46:19
>> Okay.
00:46:19
>> If you can you pin message threads or
00:46:22
messages?
00:46:23
>> You can. And it's it stays in the
00:46:24
middle. It doesn't pin to the top the
00:46:26
way it does on on Apple.
00:46:27
>> Adam's just saying it should be usable
00:46:29
space. I think that's totally fair.
00:46:30
>> Or not even you like Well, yeah, I guess
00:46:32
usable, but like tell me some sort of
00:46:34
useful information.
00:46:35
>> You don't want me to click it.
00:46:37
>> I would be happy with that. Just show
00:46:39
the clock. It's going to be ads one day.
00:46:43
>> Next topic.
00:46:44
>> Don't give them those ideas.
00:46:45
>> It's just going to be a giant Gemini
00:46:46
button at some point.
00:46:48
>> Yeah.
00:46:48
>> Samsung Messages shutting down. Less
00:46:51
choice sucks. We're going to leave a
00:46:52
little pause here for all the people who
00:46:54
are about to type. Just use WhatsApp. Go
00:46:56
on, do it. I don't want you to miss any
00:46:58
more of the episode. Got it. Almost a
00:47:01
little angrier. Perfect.
00:47:03
>> Less Choice
00:47:05
does suck, but I would never be sad to
00:47:08
see Verizon Messages Plus implode.
00:47:11
That's all I'm going to say.
00:47:14
>> That's a good take. Fair.
00:47:15
>> That's a good take.
00:47:17
>> Yeah. All right. Well, we should take a
00:47:18
quick break. We have talked for a quite
00:47:21
a while about a bunch of things and now
00:47:22
we should do trivia.
00:47:24
>> The next one is going to be a nice
00:47:25
simple little section.
00:47:26
>> Well, it can be simple for the beginning
00:47:28
of the
00:47:28
>> I'm just kidding. It literally says
00:47:30
debate. There's no
00:47:32
>> It's not related to it. I think we're
00:47:34
all on the same page.
00:47:34
>> We are not.
00:47:35
>> Oh,
00:47:36
>> I know. None. Yeah.
00:47:37
>> Good to know that.
00:47:39
>> Trivia. Little bit of foreshadowing
00:47:41
after the break. We're going to talk
00:47:43
about what is in my opinion the craziest
00:47:44
tech news story of the year. Assuming no
00:47:47
one's lying. Anthropics project
00:47:49
glasswing. Um, but the question is
00:47:54
where does the term glasswing come from?
00:47:56
And it's multiple choice. A. Glass wing
00:48:00
is an experimental F1 rear wing design
00:48:02
from the ground effect era of cars. B. A
00:48:06
glass wing is a Central American
00:48:08
butterfly with transparent wings. C. A
00:48:11
glass wing is a type of parachute used
00:48:13
by first responders to jump into dense
00:48:15
forest canopies. or D, it's an acronym,
00:48:20
general layer analysis screening with
00:48:22
integrated neural GPTs. GPT standing for
00:48:25
generative pre-trained transformered
00:48:28
nested nested acronyms.
00:48:32
>> Okay, that is uh I definitely wouldn't
00:48:35
have gotten that without the multiple
00:48:36
choice. I still might not get it, but
00:48:38
we'll think about that. Answers will be
00:48:40
at the end like usual. We'll be right
00:48:41
back.
00:48:41
>> I don't think I want my parachute to be
00:48:43
called a glass wing.
00:48:45
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Rules and restrictions may apply. All
00:49:49
right, welcome back. Got a little debate
00:49:52
for y'all. So, David Pierce wrote an
00:49:54
article on The Verge this week called
00:49:56
vertical browser tabs are better and you
00:49:57
should use them about how Chrome finally
00:49:59
added vertical tabs Yep.
00:50:01
>> to their browser. Um, and then listed
00:50:03
out some of the reasons why you should
00:50:04
use them. So, I know a lot of us on this
00:50:06
podcast have very strong opinions about
00:50:08
vertical tabs. So, I thought the best
00:50:10
thing to do is to talk about how we like
00:50:13
them or don't like them, list some of
00:50:14
the reasons David Pierce laid out, and
00:50:16
in true podcast fashion, we can debate
00:50:18
him in a situation where he can't defend
00:50:20
himself.
00:50:21
>> Yeah, that's cool.
00:50:22
>> Yeah. Okay.
00:50:23
>> So, he's very provertical tabs.
00:50:24
>> David, on the next on the next Vergecast
00:50:26
episode, you will respond.
00:50:28
>> This is how we This is how we start
00:50:30
YouTube drama. You got to make response
00:50:32
videos to each other.
00:50:33
>> That's actually valid.
00:50:34
>> And we haven't done this yet, so it's
00:50:35
time.
00:50:35
>> I think
00:50:36
>> it's time.
00:50:36
>> Let's all start. I think you two are
00:50:38
provertical tabs, right?
00:50:40
>> Uh here's my browser right here.
00:50:41
Vertical tabs on the side. Yeah.
00:50:42
>> You think I'm provertical tabs? This
00:50:45
should be common knowledge.
00:50:47
>> Um yeah,
00:50:48
>> it's also 75% of why I started using
00:50:50
Arc.
00:50:50
>> Yeah, Arc. I mean, in the episode where
00:50:52
I where I talked about Arc for the first
00:50:54
time, I explained it so horribly, but
00:50:56
the only thing where I was like, "This
00:50:58
is amazing." was vertical tabs.
00:51:00
>> What about you two?
00:51:01
>> Vertical tabs all day.
00:51:02
>> Oh,
00:51:04
yeah. Thank you.
00:51:05
>> Yeah. Horizontal tabs. horizontal tabs
00:51:07
all day.
00:51:07
>> Interesting.
00:51:08
>> And is this because you haven't tried or
00:51:10
you dislike vertical?
00:51:13
>> His screen is square. So
00:51:15
>> that's actually very important for this.
00:51:17
>> Very better though.
00:51:18
>> My my when I'm a browsing um I'm one of
00:51:22
those people who is like stuck in the
00:51:24
year 2011 and I use
00:51:27
uh command and one through nine to go
00:51:30
through my tabs. So
00:51:31
>> you memorize which tab is in which
00:51:34
>> number. It's not really like a I mean I
00:51:36
guess then you make it sound like it's a
00:51:38
big mental task.
00:51:39
>> Sounds like one. That's how you switch
00:51:41
between tabs, but you still have all of
00:51:43
your tabs up at the top of your browser.
00:51:44
>> Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal.
00:51:46
>> Oh. Oh, interesting. I see.
00:51:48
>> Oh, so maybe there's a little mental uh
00:51:50
alignment.
00:51:51
>> No, it's just wrong the other way. Like
00:51:53
like Sorry,
00:51:54
>> that's valid. That's what you're saying.
00:51:55
>> I'm pro horizontal tabs with this.
00:51:57
>> Pro horizontal. And does that mean
00:51:58
you're anti-vertical?
00:52:00
>> Oh, yeah.
00:52:00
>> I would. I'd be down with like a grid of
00:52:02
tabs and then I could use the numpad
00:52:05
>> for that. But they need to be they need
00:52:07
to be in the same shape. Like a 3x3 grid
00:52:09
of tabs.
00:52:10
>> Do you have a numpad?
00:52:11
>> Yeah, on all my computers. Probably
00:52:13
requires you to have a num tab.
00:52:15
>> Uh
00:52:16
>> uh I use my laptop almost exclusively in
00:52:19
dock mode with a keyboard with
00:52:21
>> and like 400 peripherals.
00:52:23
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:25
>> I'm out of uh I'm sorry. I'm out of USB
00:52:27
ports on every single setup I have. Uh,
00:52:30
which is hilarious cuz I have a Cal
00:52:32
Digit TS5. Like it's just Anyway,
00:52:34
>> everything.
00:52:35
>> Yeah, I like I like horizontal tabs, but
00:52:37
I'm also a Safari user.
00:52:38
>> Yeah, that's crazy.
00:52:39
>> So, I don't know if my opinions are
00:52:41
super valid.
00:52:41
>> That's crazy. I I
00:52:44
>> It's crazy that you're you use Safari
00:52:46
because if you if you're docked all the
00:52:49
time, the battery life doesn't really
00:52:51
matter. And Safari is only good for one
00:52:52
thing, which is battery life.
00:52:54
>> That's not
00:52:55
>> I like the icon, not going to lie.
00:52:57
Unfortunately,
00:52:57
>> commonly accepted facts.
00:52:59
>> Commonly accepted.
00:53:01
>> Accepted by who? Lunatics.
00:53:02
>> I would say ask any browser enthusiast.
00:53:04
>> This is not what this conversation was.
00:53:07
>> What are we debating?
00:53:08
>> Attacking Ellis.
00:53:10
>> Reason Safari is goated. It's okay. One,
00:53:12
I'm on an Apple silicon laptop. Battery
00:53:14
life is going to be legit no matter what
00:53:16
or where I'm going.
00:53:18
>> No. No, it's not.
00:53:20
>> I'm like I'm a super turbo power user. I
00:53:23
can at least get like 4 hours of battery
00:53:25
life minimum.
00:53:26
between Chrome and Safari in regular
00:53:29
browsing for several hours is shockingly
00:53:31
high.
00:53:32
>> Huge is
00:53:34
this laptop lasts is is terrifyingly
00:53:38
longlasting battery on Safari is average
00:53:40
at best with Chrome.
00:53:42
>> Wait, so so why are we hating on Safari
00:53:44
then?
00:53:44
>> I am. So you're saying you use a docked
00:53:46
so that the performance and efficiency
00:53:48
battery gains that you get are
00:53:50
effectively not important at all.
00:53:52
>> The No, the performance is super
00:53:54
important. performance is great.
00:53:56
>> I like having RAM computer
00:53:58
>> valid. And I think there's there's a
00:54:00
little bit more of a obviously people
00:54:02
depends on how much RAM you have where
00:54:04
this argument becomes more important.
00:54:05
But the like how long it takes to open
00:54:07
the browser. I notice Safari is faster
00:54:09
and then once I'm into browsing I notice
00:54:11
effectively no difference
00:54:13
>> and the battery life is the main thing
00:54:15
that I would use Safari for.
00:54:16
>> Interesting. My thinking is one I do a
00:54:19
lot of RAM heavy tasks all the time. I
00:54:21
really like having as much RAM free as
00:54:23
possible at any given moment. Love that.
00:54:25
>> Two, I'm a little bit of a security
00:54:27
freak. Like over the past few months,
00:54:30
I've become like way way way more
00:54:31
freakish about my data and I love
00:54:34
Private Relay. Like I I see private
00:54:36
relay like securing me all the time now.
00:54:40
>> Um
00:54:41
>> and then I guess I don't really use like
00:54:43
browser extensions very much.
00:54:46
very often that I see a browser
00:54:48
extension
00:54:55
I need to use, but I have yet to find a
00:54:57
single browser extension that I'm like
00:55:00
I'm so this is so essential to my life
00:55:02
that I'd be willing to use 60 GB of RAM.
00:55:05
Do you
00:55:05
>> use the Claude and Chrome extension?
00:55:07
>> I do. That's the only time I open
00:55:08
Chrome. So, I'll be do be doing all my
00:55:11
stuff in Safari and then I'll have a
00:55:12
Chrome window open that Claude is
00:55:14
controlling.
00:55:14
>> If I can make an analogy, when I first
00:55:16
got Andrew to use a tasks app
00:55:18
>> and there were like 75 options and you
00:55:20
were like, I'll just try Google Tasks
00:55:22
first
00:55:23
>> and I was like, okay, that's it's a good
00:55:25
like it's the default one. There's no
00:55:27
advanced features or no plugins or
00:55:28
anything crazy like that, but it is gets
00:55:30
you in the door. That is Safari, I
00:55:32
think.
00:55:33
>> Yeah. As soon as you find like two or
00:55:35
three features that are not available in
00:55:36
tasks that you start to lean on, it's
00:55:39
the same thing as finding two or three
00:55:41
extensions in the browser or two or
00:55:42
three UI features in the browser that
00:55:44
you start to lean on and then you're
00:55:45
like Safari is so far behind. It doesn't
00:55:47
have it has extensions, but like the
00:55:49
amount of UI fun and trickery and
00:55:52
elegance and interesting things
00:55:53
happening in I mean Arc is obviously the
00:55:56
one we talk about a lot, but so many
00:55:57
other browsers, they're just not in
00:55:59
Safari.
00:55:59
>> Yo, I really I really want to talk about
00:56:01
tabs. I don't want to miss.
00:56:02
>> Do you know what features really stupid
00:56:03
to lean on? Vertical tabs.
00:56:05
>> Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs.
00:56:07
>> You can literally lean on them because
00:56:08
they're vertical like a wall. You can't
00:56:10
learn on something. You can't lean on
00:56:12
the ground. That's horizontal.
00:56:13
>> All right. Your your monitor is
00:56:14
widescreen. This is this is the default,
00:56:16
right? Your monitor's widescreen. When
00:56:18
you have a bunch of tabs at the top,
00:56:19
it's cramming them all into the top and
00:56:21
you can't see anything. Put them over to
00:56:23
the side. You can have as many tabs as
00:56:25
you want. You'll never run out of room.
00:56:27
You don't run out of vertical real
00:56:28
estate because your tabs are only a
00:56:31
slot. So just horizontal tabs just make
00:56:33
sense for a vertical browsing experience
00:56:35
on a widescreen monitor.
00:56:37
>> Agreed.
00:56:38
>> Agreed.
00:56:38
>> All right.
00:56:39
>> Agreed in that scenario. But
00:56:40
>> okay scenario.
00:56:42
>> Well, okay. There's more scenarios in
00:56:43
this one.
00:56:44
>> Do you guys use your Mac doc on the
00:56:46
side?
00:56:47
>> Mac, it's at the bottom. What's a Mac?
00:56:49
>> Actually, on my desktop.
00:56:51
>> It's on the side.
00:56:51
>> I don't use on the side.
00:56:53
>> That's crazy.
00:56:54
>> Why would Why not? If it's widescreen
00:56:56
and it's vertical side,
00:56:58
>> I don't really use my dock.
00:57:00
>> I see what you're doing. Why don't you
00:57:01
do it on the side?
00:57:02
>> I see what you're doing.
00:57:02
>> Yeah, I just It's the exact same thing.
00:57:05
But unfort I think Marquez might win
00:57:07
this one because I
00:57:08
>> Well, because he does use it. Adam uses
00:57:10
it on the side also.
00:57:10
>> What?
00:57:11
>> No, no, no. I used to use it on the
00:57:12
side, too. But the the icons are square
00:57:14
and so it's it doesn't matter what
00:57:16
direction, whereas writing is
00:57:17
horizontal. So, you could
00:57:18
>> No, no, but we're talking about width of
00:57:20
screen real estate and that a general
00:57:22
web page is vertical. This is something
00:57:24
David Pierce says also. He says precious
00:57:26
vertical pixels.
00:57:27
>> Virtually every modern computer display
00:57:28
is widescreen. Most web pages are taller
00:57:31
than they are wide. So if you're reading
00:57:33
in a thing, you don't need the width of
00:57:34
space.
00:57:35
>> I don't I don't agree with that. I think
00:57:36
that I think the idea is that like if
00:57:38
you have something that is larger in the
00:57:40
vert in the horizontal dimension, then
00:57:42
you'd want to stack it vertically
00:57:44
because you lose less information per
00:57:46
instance.
00:57:47
>> I think it's even simpler. It's I have
00:57:49
more horizontal pixels, so I will waste
00:57:50
more of them on tabs. I have less
00:57:52
vertical pixels, so I want to scroll
00:57:54
less by having less things wasting my
00:57:55
vertical pixels.
00:57:56
>> Something you guys are disregarding is
00:57:58
the magical ability to hide your tabs.
00:58:01
Arc,
00:58:02
>> this is my goated Arc setup.
00:58:03
>> Hidden tabs.
00:58:04
>> Yeah, you swipe you you Okay. The the
00:58:07
active page, you swipe over and then
00:58:09
your tabs come out.
00:58:10
>> There's something so funny about you not
00:58:12
doing that with your doc. What do you
00:58:13
say? You don't use your dock.
00:58:14
>> Well, I don't really use my dock. You
00:58:15
can hide.
00:58:16
>> Exact. So, you should hide your dock.
00:58:17
>> Yeah, I should. I never thought about
00:58:19
that. You should definitely hide your
00:58:21
doc.
00:58:22
>> But okay, this is the goated arc setup.
00:58:24
You have two windows. Arc does have a
00:58:26
feature where you can have like two,
00:58:27
it's one window, but you have two
00:58:28
separate pages. But that's lame.
00:58:30
>> Can I pause you right there really fast?
00:58:32
Okay,
00:58:32
>> cuz that's what I wanted to say.
00:58:33
Everyone's talking about width of screen
00:58:34
real estate. I put two windows up. So
00:58:37
now,
00:58:37
>> yeah.
00:58:38
>> Yeah. I don't have that much screen real
00:58:40
estate. Now in two windows, if you're
00:58:42
not doing his go to dark setup, if you
00:58:44
have two windows with vertical tabs, now
00:58:47
you're taking up so much space.
00:58:49
vertically and you have this huge buffer
00:58:51
in between your very specific scenario.
00:58:54
>> Come on. Most people hide the tabs in
00:58:55
Arc
00:58:56
>> in Arc. But he's this whole article is
00:58:58
about Chrome.
00:58:59
>> Yeah, because Chrome sucks.
00:59:00
>> Thank you.
00:59:01
>> I think by default
00:59:03
>> you don't hide your tabs, right?
00:59:05
>> No, I don't.
00:59:05
>> So, if you have two browser windows,
00:59:08
sorry, I feel like I'm interrupting a
00:59:09
lot here, but I want to I don't want to
00:59:10
miss specific things we're talking
00:59:12
about. Yeah. Um, if you have two
00:59:14
browsers open side by side, so now it's
00:59:18
>> tabs, article, tabs, article, and it's
00:59:21
all like, yeah, that's a I do that
00:59:23
sometimes. You do that
00:59:24
>> on a widecreen monitor. It's still fine.
00:59:26
There's enough horizontal
00:59:27
>> on your 32 in monitor.
00:59:29
>> Well, it's wide. It's a wide.
00:59:30
>> But what about your 14-inch MacBook?
00:59:31
>> There are people who use ultra wides.
00:59:33
Anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot
00:59:35
possibly justify not using horizontal
00:59:37
tabs for vertical tabs. You got to use
00:59:38
vertical tabs. Yeah, they're not. Yeah,
00:59:40
>> but on my, you know, the Pro display or
00:59:43
whatever, it's still widescreen. I still
00:59:44
got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare
00:59:46
and every website is vertical.
00:59:47
>> What about this computer, your 14-inch
00:59:49
MacBook Pro?
00:59:49
>> Yeah, I got one window.
00:59:50
>> You have one window?
00:59:51
>> Yeah.
00:59:52
>> Okay.
00:59:53
>> What about Mac OS and not Windows,
00:59:55
idiot?
00:59:56
>> One window. Doc's at the bottom. I could
00:59:58
easily move the dock to the side. That's
00:59:59
totally valid point. But yeah, I I see
01:00:02
all my
01:00:03
>> What about watching videos in a browser?
01:00:05
>> What about it?
01:00:06
>> It's widescreen. You're losing a bunch
01:00:08
of real estate, especially on an
01:00:10
MKBHD2X1 video.
01:00:12
>> I watch videos on my phone all the time.
01:00:13
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
01:00:14
wait. Sorry. I'm watching a video in my
01:00:16
browser. It's a widescreen video.
01:00:18
>> Mhm.
01:00:19
>> And then this vertical tab is making it
01:00:21
smaller, but you can maximize. Oh, no,
01:00:22
it's not. There's still extra
01:00:23
horizontal. There's still white space to
01:00:25
the left and right of every video.
01:00:28
>> Really?
01:00:28
>> Yeah.
01:00:29
>> Open up YouTube right now.
01:00:30
>> You don't much left and right.
01:00:31
>> You don't maximize.
01:00:32
>> If I maximize it's full screen.
01:00:33
>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just full screen.
01:00:34
It's whatever. But here's
01:00:36
>> Wait, what do you mean?
01:00:37
>> Yeah, black space. Black space. Left and
01:00:39
right. There's What the heck? There's
01:00:41
just more blank space. The video is the
01:00:42
same size.
01:00:42
>> Oh
01:00:43
>> Can you do an MPB HD video?
01:00:44
>> Yeah, it's 2 by one though if I switch
01:00:46
to Yeah. Which
01:00:47
>> Yeah, which is why it would be
01:00:48
>> Oh, okay. Oh, that's what you meant by
01:00:49
two by one. Okay. So, this is a Bluey
01:00:52
phone review.
01:00:55
>> And so now there's this is about per
01:00:57
almost perfect, but there's still extra
01:00:58
horizontal space.
01:00:59
>> Okay, now get rid of it.
01:01:00
>> Same size video.
01:01:02
>> Same size video. Hide my tabs. I got
01:01:03
plenty of horizontal pixels to work with
01:01:05
here. Yeah,
01:01:05
>> it's all about the vertical space.
01:01:07
>> That did If you want your
01:01:10
>> If you're outside of theater mode, it
01:01:12
does.
01:01:12
>> Oh,
01:01:13
>> okay. That kind of screws my point up
01:01:14
there.
01:01:15
>> Yeah, the video is the same size. So, I
01:01:17
I'm a big I I agree with David Pierce, I
01:01:20
think, which I'm going to read his
01:01:21
article, but I assume he's saying
01:01:23
precious vertical pixels. You need those
01:01:25
>> pressure. Yeah, I did do a super super
01:01:28
scientific test.
01:01:29
>> Mhm. Okay,
01:01:29
>> which is I took a screenshot of my
01:01:31
browser with vertical pixel or sorry
01:01:34
horizontal tabs and vertical tabs.
01:01:36
>> I brought it into Photoshop. I took
01:01:37
total pixel size and took a percentage
01:01:39
of space inside my browser window and
01:01:41
how much it's taking up.
01:01:42
>> Okay. But yeah, it's going to take up
01:01:44
more space, but you can spare that.
01:01:46
That's like saying I have two bank
01:01:48
accounts. One of them has way more money
01:01:49
in it and I'm spending a larger
01:01:51
percentage of the smaller one, but the
01:01:53
smaller one was just for extra stuff.
01:01:54
That's a terrible analogy, but it's like
01:01:57
I have a front yard and a I got I got
01:01:59
one I got a front yard and a backyard.
01:02:01
The backyard is smaller, but it's the
01:02:03
backyard. Like I can do whatever. So if
01:02:05
I have a front yard and I've been
01:02:06
putting like I want to put a sculpture
01:02:09
in one of these yards.
01:02:10
>> Okay.
01:02:10
>> I can put a way bigger sculpture in the
01:02:12
backyard because it's my backyard. I can
01:02:14
do whatever I want. I've got extra grass
01:02:16
back there. The front yard is is is
01:02:19
precious to use for front yard stuff.
01:02:21
>> I would I'm bad at this. I'm saying I
01:02:22
would put a sculpture in the front yard
01:02:24
if I was getting a sculpture cuz I
01:02:25
>> Help me out with what is a good nail. I
01:02:27
have a driveway. I've got a twocar
01:02:28
garage.
01:02:29
>> Horizontal tab.
01:02:30
>> I got a twocar garage.
01:02:32
>> Go with it. Okay.
01:02:33
>> And I have a I have a
01:02:34
>> I'm trying to understand what you're
01:02:35
saying.
01:02:36
>> I have a Hummer. Okay. I have a two-car
01:02:38
garage and I have one massive car. A
01:02:39
Hummer.
01:02:40
>> Hummer.
01:02:41
>> If I wanted to build a gym in my garage,
01:02:44
I would build it in the half garage
01:02:46
that's not being used while I still park
01:02:48
the Hummer in the big garage slot. And
01:02:50
how does this relate to the tabs?
01:02:52
>> Because that half garage is extra,
01:02:55
>> right? So you're saying it takes a big
01:02:57
the gym takes a huge portion of that
01:02:59
second garage spot, but who cares? It's
01:03:01
the second garage spot. I wasn't using
01:03:03
it for anything.
01:03:04
>> Does that track
01:03:06
>> I see what you're saying.
01:03:09
>> I think the difference what would need
01:03:10
to happen is the Hummer would need to be
01:03:12
able to expand to fill the space
01:03:14
allotted, which is not how Hummers work.
01:03:17
>> No, the gym expands. The gym is what's
01:03:19
expanding. The gym can expand.
01:03:20
>> You're building a gym in the garage.
01:03:22
>> Oh, I see. I see. I see.
01:03:23
>> You have a two-car garage.
01:03:24
>> So, the Hummer is the tabs is what
01:03:25
you're saying.
01:03:26
>> Uh, and the gym is the tabs.
01:03:29
>> The gym is the tabs,
01:03:30
>> but the tabs don't expand to fill the
01:03:31
whole screen, right?
01:03:33
>> Uh, no, but they I mean, they take up
01:03:36
more. You're saying So, Andrew said,
01:03:38
>> okay,
01:03:39
>> Andrew said that when I switch to
01:03:40
vertical tabs, it's it's turning into
01:03:43
blank space way more.
01:03:45
>> Well, it's overall taking up more space
01:03:47
inside of the browser. The browser is
01:03:49
for looking at web pages. It's taking
01:03:51
away more space for the web page.
01:03:52
>> And my argument is it's taking up way
01:03:54
more space, but it's taking up a whole
01:03:56
bunch of space that you weren't going to
01:03:57
do anything with because every website
01:03:59
is vertical.
01:04:00
>> Not yes,
01:04:02
>> majority of
01:04:03
some of those things. If I'm also
01:04:06
>> on my uh computer putting multiple
01:04:09
windows next to each other vertical, I'm
01:04:11
losing horizontal space. So therefore,
01:04:13
now there's a vertical tab list on every
01:04:16
single one of those windows. Yeah,
01:04:18
>> it is destroy destroying real estate web
01:04:20
browsers.
01:04:21
>> You don't even need to have this
01:04:22
argument if you just do what you're
01:04:23
supposed to do, which is to do the hover
01:04:25
thing where the tabs expand
01:04:26
>> in the browser that's going to be
01:04:28
sunlight or
01:04:29
>> sunset sunset within the next year.
01:04:31
>> I don't care.
01:04:32
>> Can you hide Can you hide
01:04:36
>> Can you hide your tabs at the top?
01:04:38
>> Um top tabs.
01:04:39
>> Oh, I don't know. Can you hide those?
01:04:41
>> I think you can turn off the like
01:04:42
bookmarks bar or whatever the t Oh, no,
01:04:44
wait. It's just Okay, here's my take.
01:04:47
Look at this. Look at it. Look at your
01:04:48
screen. Look at your teenager.
01:04:50
>> Perfect.
01:04:50
>> There's like there's like 12% of your
01:04:53
screen that's being used by useless.
01:04:57
>> You're in a different You're basically
01:04:58
in like a full screen mode.
01:05:01
>> Me?
01:05:01
>> Yeah.
01:05:02
>> Yeah. Cuz
01:05:04
>> that's how you should use your computer.
01:05:05
>> Okay. I have
01:05:06
>> somebody takes it.
01:05:07
>> I have a way to to
01:05:09
>> Wait, can I just say the percentages of
01:05:11
what I calculated?
01:05:12
>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Horizontal tabs took
01:05:14
3% of the total pixels used by my
01:05:16
browser window. Vertical tabs took up
01:05:19
14% of the total pixels of the browser
01:05:20
window.
01:05:21
>> Yeah.
01:05:21
>> Yeah. Whatever.
01:05:22
>> So my take is I would argue that's
01:05:24
functional space though because the way
01:05:26
that I use my vertical tabs is folders
01:05:28
and they're drop down. So when you click
01:05:30
on one it pops out underneath.
01:05:32
>> So I could see everything.
01:05:34
>> Let's go.
01:05:34
>> That's you can do tabs.
01:05:37
>> Waterfalling cascading. That's how
01:05:40
folders work on your computer. If you
01:05:42
only have like three three tabs open,
01:05:45
>> is the entire sidebar just empty then?
01:05:47
>> Yes.
01:05:48
>> Yeah. And you weren't gonna use those
01:05:49
pixels anyway.
01:05:50
>> I got a blank.
01:05:51
>> And that's why you got to be mean and
01:05:53
you got so hard to understand the amount
01:05:54
of tabs that you have open.
01:05:56
>> Yeah. If I have 20 tabs, it fills up the
01:05:57
whole list. But I I'd never have that
01:05:59
many tabs open. And this whole left
01:06:00
area, which was not going to be used
01:06:02
either way, switch to vertical. Switch
01:06:04
to the top tabs. It's also still blank
01:06:06
because the website's in the middle of
01:06:07
the screen. So those tabs are all white
01:06:09
no matter what you do. Just might as
01:06:11
well have the superior.
01:06:12
>> Well, yeah. It just takes up like eight
01:06:14
times as much screen real estate.
01:06:16
>> Unless you hide them. You say screen
01:06:17
real estate like it's precious, but it's
01:06:19
blank pixels.
01:06:21
>> Hide them.
01:06:21
>> I do think it
01:06:22
>> this all gets solved if you hide them
01:06:25
when you hide your doc right now.
01:06:27
>> I'll hide my doc right now.
01:06:28
>> Every website scrolls up and down.
01:06:30
>> I'lling do it.
01:06:31
>> Everyone every single time scrolls
01:06:33
vertical.
01:06:34
>> Turn hiding on. I need to have a screen
01:06:36
of my uh
01:06:37
>> I just want to see your two web browser
01:06:40
windows open with vertical tabs side by
01:06:43
side next to each other doing something.
01:06:47
>> Yeah, you do have way more. You're like
01:06:49
widecreen people are stupid. But I have
01:06:51
two
01:06:51
>> I have two monitors.
01:06:52
>> No more dock for me. Wow, it's
01:06:55
committing to it. I'm committing. I like
01:06:56
that I don't click on those things. I
01:06:58
just I just do command space actually.
01:07:00
Yeah. Wait, I'm going to do that, too.
01:07:03
>> I'm going to hide my doc. Wait a second.
01:07:04
>> Is this something we can all agree on?
01:07:06
Cuz I'm a Raycast.
01:07:07
>> I was going to say
01:07:07
>> I can't.
01:07:08
>> The real end to this whole debate is
01:07:10
everyone has way too many tabs open and
01:07:12
just do whatever you want. I thought it
01:07:14
was fun.
01:07:14
>> Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked
01:07:15
Arc in the first place cuz I have way
01:07:17
too many tabs open and it closes them
01:07:18
for me.
01:07:19
>> You don't want Arc. You want an AI
01:07:21
browser by Atlassian.
01:07:26
Give me my Jira ASAP. Integrate with my
01:07:29
KPIs. Also, Firefox has had vertical
01:07:32
tabs for a while. Yeah.
01:07:34
>> All right.
01:07:34
>> I don't use them. I'm just saying
01:07:36
Firefox.
01:07:36
>> Andrew's that guy. It's Andrew's the
01:07:38
meme of like the guy in the party who's
01:07:39
like, "No one here knows.
01:07:41
>> I use Firefox.
01:07:42
>> I also
01:07:44
>> hiding the doc."
01:07:44
>> Totally understand. I'm the last person
01:07:46
you should be taking advice for.
01:07:47
>> No, I'm the last Safari.
01:07:49
>> My desktop is insane. It makes no sense.
01:07:53
my on my the Proisplay XDR, I use that
01:07:56
big screen real estate by just having a
01:07:58
bunch of different sized aspect ratio
01:08:00
windows where a corner of them's popping
01:08:02
out all over. So that's how I can just
01:08:03
click between all my different windows.
01:08:05
And I also am running Android Studio. So
01:08:09
because I don't have Instagram on any of
01:08:11
my devices, which means I can't share
01:08:13
things to my story. So I now have a
01:08:15
virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop
01:08:18
just so I can add things to my story
01:08:20
when the studio tags me in. I think what
01:08:22
we're learning is all of us have very
01:08:23
different habits on our desktops and we
01:08:25
just kind of have to use what works for
01:08:27
us. You know,
01:08:27
>> you didn't let me talk about the most
01:08:29
goatated Safari feature of them all. The
01:08:31
one that literally is causing Safari to
01:08:34
lap all other browser offerings.
01:08:36
>> Oh god. Okay.
01:08:37
>> You guys ever checked out your reading
01:08:39
list?
01:08:40
>> Oh no. I've only ever accidentally
01:08:42
clicked that.
01:08:43
>> You know, there's like flames.
01:08:44
>> There's like 8,000 extension Chrome
01:08:46
extensions that do that.
01:08:47
>> Yeah. I use a you can save things to
01:08:50
your
01:08:51
>> superior bookmark uh aggregation service
01:08:54
with a simple plugin
01:08:55
>> that is platform multiplatform
01:08:57
>> that syncs to all your devices
01:08:59
>> see but what I don't know what
01:09:01
background processes that's running I
01:09:03
don't know what servers it's connecting
01:09:05
to
01:09:06
>> wait okay before we move I I
01:09:08
>> reading list I'm on my computer at work
01:09:10
and I see an article that I'm interested
01:09:12
in and I'm like
01:09:14
>> Chrome has that
01:09:14
>> I'm do shut up and
01:09:17
I'm talking here. Okay, buddy. And then
01:09:19
I'm like, damn, I want to read that, but
01:09:21
I'm doing work right now, you know. And
01:09:23
then I get on the bus and I open my
01:09:24
phone and I hit reading list and I get
01:09:26
you do that with Chrome.
01:09:28
>> I get a I don't care.
01:09:30
>> Okay. You know, you know, you know what
01:09:31
how many hoops I have to go through? I
01:09:33
have to put my computer on a spit
01:09:35
over like a fire and and spin it while
01:09:38
doing some like tribal dance.
01:09:39
>> Put it in a fridge.
01:09:40
>> Look, Ellis, I understand that you're
01:09:41
like you're like traumatized from the
01:09:43
iPhone 12 mini battery life, so now
01:09:45
you're only focused on battery life. And
01:09:46
I understand that.
01:09:47
>> No, I'm not focused. I'm focused on RAM.
01:09:49
I'm focused on RAM. And I'm focused on I
01:09:51
don't like my browser connecting to
01:09:53
random servers. I didn't tell it to
01:09:55
because I downloaded some random
01:09:57
extension from somewhere in the world.
01:09:59
Okay.
01:09:59
>> You get your viruses.
01:10:01
>> Yeah.
01:10:01
>> Yeah.
01:10:01
>> Come on, man. I want to make my virus
01:10:04
soup.
01:10:05
>> Um, I have a quick question for you
01:10:06
guys. What browser do you use on your
01:10:08
phones?
01:10:09
>> Chrome.
01:10:09
>> That I actually That's a good I have
01:10:11
several answers.
01:10:12
>> Quick question.
01:10:14
>> No, on my Android phone I use Chrome. On
01:10:15
my iPhone, I use Arc and Safari.
01:10:18
>> What?
01:10:18
>> Unfortunately,
01:10:19
>> what do you use Safari for?
01:10:20
>> I default to Arc, but I have several
01:10:22
tabs that I leave open in Safari that I
01:10:25
always go back to.
01:10:26
>> Why don't you just have them on Arc?
01:10:29
>> Uh, I don't know.
01:10:31
>> This this conversation is going to end
01:10:33
and all of our audiences would be like,
01:10:35
why do I listen to these people? These
01:10:37
are the people I take advice from.
01:10:39
>> This is just revealing that a lot of us
01:10:41
like started habits that we just didn't
01:10:42
think about and now we're prepared. Why
01:10:44
are we doing this?
01:10:46
>> No, I've tried to switch. I've used I
01:10:48
didn't I never tried Arc because I was
01:10:49
so annoyed by But I've tried every other
01:10:51
browser. I've even tried the the
01:10:53
Perplexity one. Comet,
01:10:55
>> you know. I I haven't tried Opera GX
01:10:56
either. Ask me what I use on my phone.
01:10:58
>> What do you use on your phone?
01:10:59
>> Safari.
01:11:00
>> You must if you have
01:11:01
>> Please don't use Safari.
01:11:03
>> You have the reading list on your phone,
01:11:04
right?
01:11:07
>> Safari music.
01:11:08
>> Is this Safari music?
01:11:09
>> Yeah, it was supposed to be Safari.
01:11:10
>> The Safari icon is the superior icon of
01:11:13
everything. I I've tried to use a bunch
01:11:15
of different icons.
01:11:16
>> Safari is fine, but the reason why I
01:11:18
can't go all in on it is because it's
01:11:20
not multiplatform. Yeah.
01:11:21
>> Like that's basically it. Like at home,
01:11:23
I use a Linux computer. I can't download
01:11:25
Safari on a Linux computer. Like can't
01:11:27
download on your Android phone.
01:11:29
>> Yeah. And I can't download on my Android
01:11:30
phone and I switch back and forth all
01:11:31
the time.
01:11:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:32
>> I've been weaning off of of Arc slowly.
01:11:34
I'm I should be leaving Arc.
01:11:36
>> Why? Uh because the lack of updates. I
01:11:38
just know it's not going to perform well
01:11:40
in like a year. It's going to be a slow
01:11:41
crawling mess. It's been dead for a
01:11:43
while and I still use it.
01:11:45
>> But do you ever check on other browsers
01:11:47
and go, "Oh, Arc is a slow crawling
01:11:49
mess."
01:11:50
>> I check on other browsers, but like what
01:11:51
do you mean by slow crawling?
01:11:53
>> Like it takes like 30 years to open and
01:11:55
>> it doesn't take 30 years to open.
01:11:57
>> Try opening another browser.
01:11:59
>> See how fast it opens?
01:12:00
>> My god.
01:12:02
>> I mean, I think David hit the nail on
01:12:03
the head. It's habit. And all of us are
01:12:05
in weird habits. And a browser is one of
01:12:07
those habitual things you're in so much
01:12:09
that any change feels really weird. Does
01:12:11
ARC still sync?
01:12:13
>> I don't mobile. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes, it
01:12:15
does. Yes. Yes. Maybe I'll switch back
01:12:17
and hate myself a little more.
01:12:18
>> It's a good thing none of these browsers
01:12:20
have any critical vulnerabilities.
01:12:22
>> Yeah, that's a great segue. Um
01:12:24
>> they all do.
01:12:25
>> They actually all do. They
01:12:28
>> actually everything does.
01:12:29
>> Actually everything does. Okay. Very
01:12:31
very big story drop.
01:12:33
>> Title of this episode. This podcast has
01:12:34
a critical vulnerability.
01:12:36
Uh, insane story dropped yesterday,
01:12:39
Tuesday, April 7th.
01:12:41
>> Chat GBT is in your car now.
01:12:44
>> You know, it was going to happen
01:12:46
eventually. Anthropic announced also
01:12:48
that
01:12:48
>> a large project uh called Project Glass
01:12:51
Wing, which is a joint cyber security
01:12:53
effort to patch various vulnerabilities
01:12:56
across different OSS across various
01:12:58
software. The reason this is a big deal
01:13:00
is because I think last week or possibly
01:13:02
the week before, we talked about how
01:13:04
Anthropic had accidentally leaked a
01:13:07
bunch of stuff that had it had been
01:13:08
working on for a very long period of
01:13:09
time. One of those leaks, probably the
01:13:12
biggest of those leaks, was a new model
01:13:14
called Mythos that they've been working
01:13:16
on, which is the biggest model they've
01:13:18
ever trained. It has trillions of
01:13:19
parameters. It is this giant kind of
01:13:22
behemoth.
01:13:22
>> It's a good name.
01:13:23
>> Yes, very good name. They trained it
01:13:25
specifically to be good at coding.
01:13:27
Something that they found out after they
01:13:30
trained it was not only was it good at
01:13:32
coding, but a side effect of being good
01:13:33
at coding was that it was extremely good
01:13:35
at cyber security and finding bugs and
01:13:38
things like that. Um, they, you know,
01:13:41
were messing around with it. They were
01:13:42
like trying to do some cyber sec stuff
01:13:44
with it. They found thousands of high
01:13:46
severity security vulnerabilities,
01:13:48
including some in every major operating
01:13:50
system and web browser.
01:13:53
um and it can chain together various
01:13:56
different security vulnerabilities to
01:13:57
come up with more powerful outcomes. So
01:13:59
for an example in Linux, they found
01:14:02
various different vulnerabilities that
01:14:05
allowed you to have access to admin
01:14:07
access to any Linux computer by chaining
01:14:10
together a a bunch of these different
01:14:12
bugs that is in the Linux kernel.
01:14:13
>> That's combo.
01:14:14
>> It combo
01:14:16
>> get comboed.
01:14:17
>> The scary thing too is that it did it
01:14:18
autonomously.
01:14:19
>> Autonomously
01:14:20
>> like just by itself
01:14:21
>> allegedly. Allegedly. Alleged.
01:14:22
>> All of this is alleged, by the way,
01:14:24
because they did not they're not
01:14:25
releasing this to the public.
01:14:26
>> Dave and I were talking about how in the
01:14:27
mythos release paper stuff like there
01:14:29
were a few things
01:14:30
>> system card. Yeah.
01:14:31
>> Yeah. There were a few things they
01:14:32
described as unprompted which were like
01:14:36
>> basically definitely prompted. So, it's
01:14:38
like you got to take all this with a
01:14:39
little bit of a grain of salt. But
01:14:41
>> the system card, which is kind of like
01:14:43
this m it's like 200 and something pages
01:14:45
of like what happened during their
01:14:47
testing process of this new model. There
01:14:49
are various things that were kind of
01:14:51
interesting that happened, but that they
01:14:52
definitely kind of hyped up a little bit
01:14:54
to catch more headlines. Like for
01:14:56
example, they put Mythos in the sandbox
01:14:58
environment and they instructed it to
01:15:00
break out of the sandbox environment.
01:15:02
And it did. And you know, in the little
01:15:06
there's this little like what's what's
01:15:08
what's it called when you put a little
01:15:09
ticker above it that says like 10 and
01:15:11
then lower down it's like this is what
01:15:13
10 means.
01:15:14
>> What is that called?
01:15:15
>> Oh, reference.
01:15:15
>> Annotation.
01:15:16
>> Yeah, annotation. They put an annotation
01:15:18
and they were like it, you know,
01:15:19
autonomously broke out of here.
01:15:21
>> Wait, you're talking about footnotes?
01:15:22
>> A footnote? Yeah, sorry. Footnote, not
01:15:24
an annotation.
01:15:25
>> That was the most abstract way I've ever
01:15:26
heard.
01:15:27
>> I'm just thinking about it in my head.
01:15:29
>> Yeah.
01:15:29
>> Uh, so in in that one they had said like
01:15:32
the security researcher only realized
01:15:34
that had broken out of the sandbox when
01:15:35
he received an unprompted email from the
01:15:38
model telling it had broken out of the
01:15:39
sandbox. And I was like, well, okay,
01:15:41
that is kind of crazy. But at the same
01:15:43
time, like you said, it said when he
01:15:45
received an email while he was in the
01:15:46
park eating a sandwich, which is like
01:15:48
why did you say that?
01:15:49
>> And then the other part was like
01:15:51
>> it was not just prompted to break out.
01:15:52
It was prompted to email
01:15:53
>> to let them know. Yeah. So it's like,
01:15:56
>> you know, it's
01:15:56
>> they were supposed to.
01:15:57
>> Yeah. It's crazy that it's able to do
01:15:59
that. Like it was able to run JavaScript
01:16:02
and figure out a way to like break out
01:16:04
of the sandbox by running specific
01:16:06
JavaScript things, which like no one's
01:16:08
supposed to be able to do. But
01:16:10
regardless um anyway so because this
01:16:12
model they found to be so powerful they
01:16:15
formed this alliance called project
01:16:17
glasswing which is this multi- company
01:16:20
security effort where they're giving
01:16:22
mythos to a number of different
01:16:24
companies because they have found major
01:16:26
security vulnerabilities in every major
01:16:29
OS and most of the platforms like and
01:16:33
apps in the world. So anyway, they're
01:16:35
also giving access to 40 different
01:16:37
organizations uh to use Mythos previews
01:16:40
to be able preview to be able to secure
01:16:42
their environments before this kind of
01:16:44
cyber security AI agent is unleashed on
01:16:46
the world. Because uh I think if there's
01:16:49
one thing we know, it's that if you make
01:16:51
software and you say we're not going to
01:16:53
make this available to the public, it
01:16:55
will eventually become available to
01:16:56
public either uh because you decide to
01:16:58
eventually release it or because someone
01:17:00
else hacks you or because your OpenAI or
01:17:04
Google eventually develops an agent
01:17:07
that's just as powerful and can do the
01:17:08
same things. So what they're trying to
01:17:10
do now is they're basically trying to
01:17:12
like secure major software before agents
01:17:16
come out that can find vulnerabilities
01:17:18
in all of this software.
01:17:20
>> Um yeah, there was also a bug in OpenBSD
01:17:23
that has been present for 27 years that
01:17:26
nobody knew about that is able to crash
01:17:28
any machine. Um so yeah, pretty big
01:17:32
pretty big vulnerabilities there. There
01:17:34
was also one in ffmpeg which is like the
01:17:36
>> video encoder decoder single thing uses.
01:17:39
>> Exactly. It's just Yeah, it's exactly
01:17:42
>> sorry.
01:17:43
>> I know you you explained it so much
01:17:44
better than I was going to be able to
01:17:45
but yeah, it's it's code that's present
01:17:47
in most software that is able to encode
01:17:49
and decode videos because why would you
01:17:51
write it yourself when you can just pull
01:17:53
it off the shelf? So yeah, essentially
01:17:55
>> most software, it turns out zero day
01:17:58
vulnerabilities that
01:18:00
>> it took a robot to figure out.
01:18:02
>> Yeah. So, I think that the kind of scary
01:18:04
thing about stuff like this is that part
01:18:06
of the AI race is that there are
01:18:08
companies that will say, "Well, if
01:18:10
Anthropic's not going to release this,
01:18:11
we're going to develop a model that's
01:18:12
just as powerful and we're going to
01:18:14
release it because we want to gain
01:18:15
market share." That's what people are
01:18:17
freaked out about. And so, that's why
01:18:19
Anthropic is trying to like secure this
01:18:21
stuff ahead of time. In my opinion, I
01:18:23
don't think they should have even put
01:18:24
out the blog post before they did a lot
01:18:26
more work on this. Um, but it's possible
01:18:30
they
01:18:30
>> That's where my alarm bells go off. Why
01:18:32
would you even tell anyone about this?
01:18:35
>> Because it got leaked.
01:18:35
>> That's what I was going to Yeah. I think
01:18:37
the main reason why they ended up like
01:18:39
talking about it was because it got
01:18:40
leaked.
01:18:40
>> Oh yeah, they leaked the whole source
01:18:42
code. Exactly. Who I want in charge of
01:18:44
cyber security.
01:18:46
>> They they Right. I know. They leaked
01:18:48
they leaked opus source code. Yeah. And
01:18:50
in opus they found references to this
01:18:53
thing called mythos. So everyone is like
01:18:55
what the hell is anthropic mythos?
01:18:57
>> It could have just been like nothing.
01:18:58
Don't worry about it.
01:18:58
>> Yeah, they also had little characters
01:19:00
that you could dance around and you
01:19:02
could have on your computer, which is
01:19:03
arguably more important.
01:19:04
>> The disclaimer that I David and I were
01:19:06
when we were talking about this, Dave
01:19:07
and I carpool to work on Wednesdays
01:19:09
together, so we talk about all the pod
01:19:10
stuff. But the thing that David and I
01:19:12
really wanted to talk about is just that
01:19:13
like it's as much as this seems legit
01:19:17
and seems freaky,
01:19:20
um, you know, they have a financial
01:19:22
interest in lying. So maybe they're
01:19:25
lying. Maybe they're not. I don't know.
01:19:26
>> Yeah, I don't I mean, they got, you
01:19:28
know, 12 large corporations and 40
01:19:30
organizations and they they have all
01:19:32
these quotes and they have people in the
01:19:33
video talking about how important it
01:19:34
was. One of the best security
01:19:35
researchers in the world said that while
01:19:37
he's been using Mythos, he's found more
01:19:39
bugs than in his entire career.
01:19:41
>> Yeah. No, it definitely it definitely
01:19:42
seems pretty legit, but I just also know
01:19:45
like
01:19:46
>> you should take all this with a
01:19:47
>> I've been listening to Sam Alman saying
01:19:48
he's one second away from curing cancer
01:19:50
for the past two and a half years. And
01:19:51
so, you know,
01:19:53
>> I'll take it all with a grain of salt.
01:19:54
>> Don't worry, he bought a podcast. We're
01:19:56
all good.
01:19:57
>> Oh my god, dude.
01:19:58
>> The uh Speaking of
01:20:01
>> safety.
01:20:02
>> Speaking of
01:20:03
>> Oh, that's good. That's good. That's
01:20:04
good.
01:20:04
>> Good job.
01:20:05
>> Nicely done.
01:20:05
>> I saw this article, this release uh
01:20:09
today, and I just thought it was a cool
01:20:10
little article. Um SCOD, the car
01:20:13
company, is designing a bell for your
01:20:15
bike for the sole purpose of being able
01:20:17
to penetrate active noise cancelling.
01:20:20
So, uh the car company released a new
01:20:22
bell. Um and they are talking in their
01:20:25
video uh about the release of it in
01:20:28
London, a city with 1.5 million bike
01:20:30
commuters per day, a a city where 54% of
01:20:33
all headphones sold have active noise
01:20:35
cancelling and has also seen a 24% rise
01:20:38
in cyclist pedestrian collisions. they
01:20:40
decided that they needed to work on this
01:20:42
new bell because while there are
01:20:44
obviously so many variables between
01:20:45
pedestrians, cyclists, automobiles and
01:20:47
everything, they believe that the mix of
01:20:50
smartphone usage and active noise
01:20:52
cancelling is being detrimental to
01:20:54
situational awareness and recognizing
01:20:56
alert sounds. So, what they decided they
01:20:59
had to do was find a way to make bells
01:21:02
on your bike noticeable by somebody
01:21:05
wearing noise cancelling headphones. um
01:21:08
would also this came so there's this big
01:21:09
study we'll link it in the show notes um
01:21:11
Ellis could potentially make me help me
01:21:13
explain this better but they essentially
01:21:15
tested the top six most popular
01:21:18
headphones with active noise cancelling
01:21:20
to try and find a frequency that Ellis
01:21:24
is this the easiest way of describing it
01:21:25
active noise cancelling essentially
01:21:27
looks at the frequencies that are coming
01:21:28
in and then
01:21:30
>> re plays a reverse
01:21:32
>> plays the reverse version of it to
01:21:34
cancel out the noise so they found that
01:21:36
750 Hz was a frequency that for whatever
01:21:39
reason ANC just wasn't really able to
01:21:41
handle in terms of blocking out.
01:21:43
>> They found a bunch of things. They found
01:21:45
uh Okay, so they found they found a few
01:21:48
different things. It's it's uh the first
01:21:49
is that um how cluttered the noise
01:21:52
environment that you're in affects what
01:21:55
frequencies the ANC is better at
01:21:57
canceling out versus others. So when
01:22:00
there's a lot of noise going on, certain
01:22:02
frequencies are better. When there's not
01:22:03
a lot of noise, other frequencies
01:22:05
penetrate better. Another thing they
01:22:06
found was that um tonal frequencies,
01:22:10
like frequencies that have a clear like
01:22:13
bass and then harmonic stack on top of
01:22:15
them work better than sounds that are a
01:22:17
little bit more random and chaotic and
01:22:19
like what we would call noisy. Uh
01:22:21
there's a there's a bunch of interesting
01:22:22
things, but yeah, largely that that's
01:22:23
the big thing is that in a lot like
01:22:26
there are certain situations where 750
01:22:27
Hz works really well and then there are
01:22:29
certain situations where I think it was
01:22:30
like 1K or 2K or something like that
01:22:33
work swish works really well. Uh
01:22:35
>> so I thought what it was is that the 750
01:22:37
Hz was the frequency that ANC basically
01:22:40
was not able to counteract and so that
01:22:43
could pierce uh noise cancelling
01:22:46
headphones.
01:22:46
>> Let me
01:22:47
>> Isn't that like a super like a bass?
01:22:49
>> It is. So So the reason this is this is
01:22:51
called the Scod Duo Bell is because the
01:22:55
750 Hz can break uh noise cancellation
01:22:58
but that is a very low noise for people
01:23:01
who are not wearing noise cancelling
01:23:03
headphones. So that bell just by itself
01:23:05
at 750 Hz probably won't actually alert
01:23:09
somebody in an environment that's not
01:23:11
wearing the headphones. So that's why
01:23:12
the bell has two different frequencies
01:23:15
on it. One is over 2,000 htz because
01:23:17
that is still a general
01:23:20
>> uh like bike bell alert sound that
01:23:22
people are used to. So people who aren't
01:23:23
wearing headphones,
01:23:25
>> it would be crazy to do this whole thing
01:23:26
to help people with headphones and then
01:23:28
make it worse and not alerting people
01:23:31
who aren't wearing the headphones. I'm
01:23:32
just trying to imagine the sound of a
01:23:33
bike chime but in a much lower pitch.
01:23:36
>> I don't know if I would I guess it would
01:23:38
be interesting to hear like if I'm
01:23:39
listening to music and it has bass in
01:23:41
it. That's going to sound like a more
01:23:43
bass.
01:23:44
>> I would assume it's something different
01:23:46
you're not used to. You're wondering
01:23:47
what that sound is.
01:23:49
>> Maybe
01:23:49
>> they did. The way they tested it is
01:23:51
through this kind of complicated way.
01:23:53
They like did virtual reality where one
01:23:55
person was walking.
01:23:58
That's 750.
01:23:59
>> 750.
01:23:59
>> That sounds dumb.
01:24:01
>> Higher than I thought. Um, okay.
01:24:04
>> But like if Well, I guess it's one
01:24:06
thing. The the whole the bell is all
01:24:07
mechanical. It's not digital.
01:24:10
>> 2000's pretty high. I was listening to
01:24:12
these before to try and see what they
01:24:14
sounded like.
01:24:15
>> But you also have to think of it. It has
01:24:16
to be in a bell that goes
01:24:18
like um
01:24:20
>> the way they did it is they tested it by
01:24:21
a person in virtual reality was wearing
01:24:24
noise cancelling headphones and was in
01:24:27
the in the virtual reality supposed to
01:24:29
be doing something on their phone to be
01:24:31
paying attention to it.
01:24:32
>> It's hard to imagine these as the bike
01:24:34
tone that would be on a but that's much
01:24:36
louder.
01:24:38
Uh and so in their testing they s found
01:24:41
that people wearing ANC headphones heard
01:24:43
the bell 22 meters earlier or 5 seconds
01:24:46
sooner than an average person biking
01:24:48
which is yeah huge.
01:24:50
>> Um so yeah it's something they're
01:24:51
testing in London. They're planning on
01:24:52
expanding it. I want it because when we
01:24:55
are trying to do water runs in the
01:24:57
studio and everyone's wearing headphones
01:24:58
I want to try and alert everybody. So we
01:25:00
should just put it at the front door so
01:25:02
we can just ring ring ring ring ring
01:25:03
ring and everybody can then know we're
01:25:06
going to do a water run. Why were they
01:25:07
in VR when they were testing this again?
01:25:10
>> So they get that spending money
01:25:12
>> because they were they they weren't just
01:25:14
>> the original testing was.
01:25:15
>> Yeah. So they weren't they weren't just
01:25:17
being like how well do you hear this?
01:25:19
They were simulating distractions both
01:25:21
in the foreground, background, and
01:25:23
periphery.
01:25:24
>> And so they were trying to figure like
01:25:25
not just how well can you hear
01:25:26
something, but how well does the like
01:25:28
ear response actually reach your brain
01:25:31
when cuz when you're riding a bike,
01:25:32
you're focused on
01:25:34
>> stuff. Well, I guess not ready when
01:25:36
you're in the world.
01:25:37
>> They're saying people with headphones
01:25:38
are generally also a lot of times
01:25:40
looking at their phone and just
01:25:41
completely
01:25:42
>> unaware of what's going around.
01:25:44
>> Yeah.
01:25:44
>> Um, one thing in here though is with all
01:25:46
the testing, they did create a graph of
01:25:49
the AirPods Mac, Bose Choir Comfort,
01:25:51
Sony WX100's, AirPods Pro, JBL Live Pro,
01:25:54
and Samsung Galaxy Buds. And they have a
01:25:57
graph of how well the mean attenuation
01:25:59
is. And AirPods Max just kind of blow
01:26:02
everything out of the water. I was a
01:26:03
little confused by this because they
01:26:05
don't they don't say which generation of
01:26:07
these they use. That sort of frustrated
01:26:09
me. They don't say which Sony's they
01:26:11
don't say which AirPod Pros
01:26:13
>> which pro
01:26:16
is now there's a new one but I think
01:26:18
this happened before that that came out
01:26:19
like last week.
01:26:20
>> Yeah. Just but yeah. None of them have a
01:26:22
number.
01:26:22
>> Yeah.
01:26:23
>> True.
01:26:23
>> Apple's got to be very new but are way
01:26:26
better than the old at noise cancelling
01:26:28
specifically.
01:26:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. Apple's got to be very
01:26:31
annoyed at this chart because they um
01:26:33
they said AirPod Pro and AirPod Max and
01:26:37
as we know Apple's very specific
01:26:39
>> there's a lot about this the Sony
01:26:41
WX1000s they just get even they were
01:26:44
like this name sucks I'm not listing the
01:26:46
whole thing in it
01:26:47
>> Samsung Galaxy Bud
01:26:48
>> and just JBL Pro all lowercase
01:26:50
>> a part of it might also be cuz they're
01:26:52
trying to like not make it about the
01:26:54
individual headphones like that's not
01:26:55
the point the point is just headphones
01:26:56
in general you know
01:26:57
>> the point of our
01:27:00
They do they list
01:27:03
>> they do break it down.
01:27:04
>> Guys, what's my least favorite thing in
01:27:05
the world?
01:27:06
>> Um the noise of it's frequency response
01:27:09
charts. It's frequency response charts
01:27:11
because there's so much information
01:27:12
about noise cancelling that this graph
01:27:14
does not show. So I I'm also not mad
01:27:16
that cuz you would not be able to look
01:27:18
as much as I want to be like Ellis is
01:27:20
right Airpods Max or the go. It's like
01:27:23
um for example like the speed of the
01:27:26
drivers like how fast those drivers can
01:27:28
move in and out will affect how much of
01:27:31
sudden sounds are able to be cancelled.
01:27:33
Uh the excursion of the drivers, how far
01:27:37
spatially they can move from their
01:27:38
resting point is going to affect like
01:27:40
how much like really low booms are able
01:27:43
to be can. You know there there's a lot
01:27:44
of other features that you can't just be
01:27:45
like x frequency is canceled y amount.
01:27:49
Um,
01:27:49
>> yeah.
01:27:50
>> If anyone ever sends me a frequency
01:27:52
response chart, block my number.
01:27:54
>> Bro, what do you mean?
01:27:56
>> It's kind of like an MTF.
01:27:57
>> I said what I said.
01:27:58
>> It's kind of like an MTF chart with
01:27:59
lenses.
01:28:00
>> It's like when people are like the sound
01:28:02
stage of headphones. I'm like, miss me.
01:28:05
Straight. Straight up miss me.
01:28:07
>> Well, um, I have many thoughts, but we
01:28:10
have to get going.
01:28:11
>> Adam, you should try.
01:28:11
>> I I just want to try I want I want the
01:28:14
bell and I want to see what it sounds
01:28:15
like. I mean, we all Andrew, you and I,
01:28:17
we always want the bell, baby. But, you
01:28:19
know, boy,
01:28:20
>> what does that what does that mean?
01:28:22
>> Taco Bell.
01:28:22
>> Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.
01:28:24
Yeah, same.
01:28:24
>> Wait, no, we should. I would be
01:28:26
interested in obtaining this.
01:28:27
>> I don't know how we will because it's
01:28:28
only in London right now. Scod, if
01:28:30
you're listening,
01:28:30
>> I I would fly to London at the time.
01:28:34
>> Anyway, Adam, do you want to transition
01:28:36
to us into your rant? Speaking of
01:28:38
>> Speaking of things that I'm angry about,
01:28:40
>> there you go. There it is.
01:28:42
>> You're angry at bells?
01:28:43
>> Um, no, not not really. more so speaking
01:28:46
about it.
01:28:47
>> No, I'm mad at Ellis's frequency
01:28:49
response.
01:28:49
>> Oh, I Okay,
01:28:50
>> but also about Pixel uh 10A coming out
01:28:54
in Japan in blue. Okay, I have a few
01:28:57
questions here.
01:28:58
>> Okay,
01:28:58
>> so if you don't know, the Pixel 10a got
01:29:00
a Japan exclusive variant that is like a
01:29:03
nice blue color. It has its own cool uh
01:29:06
icons and wallpapers and all this stuff.
01:29:08
>> Yeah,
01:29:09
>> it's neat. Fine. I'm confused because
01:29:11
isn't this just the Pixel 10 color? Like
01:29:14
the blue looks exactly the same.
01:29:15
>> Oh, that's where that's where you get
01:29:17
triggered the design people.
01:29:20
>> It's such a specific blue.
01:29:21
>> It is a very specific blue and it has a
01:29:23
special name and everything, but I'm
01:29:24
looking at it and again, we don't have
01:29:25
the actual device. So, I'm looking at on
01:29:27
the screen. Yep.
01:29:28
>> And I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we
01:29:29
have here in the office. Yep.
01:29:31
>> And I'm just like, it's the same
01:29:32
picture.
01:29:33
>> Yeah,
01:29:34
>> they're the same picture.
01:29:34
>> I don't know what it is about these
01:29:35
companies that they sort of over Maybe
01:29:38
they overdo like how much they think we
01:29:40
care about the exact color. You know
01:29:42
what Motorola does? They do like a they
01:29:44
have a partnership with Panone and
01:29:46
they'll do a special edition phone that
01:29:47
is in the Panone color of the year.
01:29:50
>> As if I've ever met anyone who
01:29:52
>> even knows what that is.
01:29:54
>> Like we do have designers here.
01:29:56
>> You don't remember Cosmic Latte?
01:29:58
>> No. No. And
01:30:01
>> color of the year from like
01:30:02
>> I know that there are people who care
01:30:03
about the panone color of the year and
01:30:04
those people are a very specific person
01:30:06
who you know pays attention to colors
01:30:07
and new things like that and that's very
01:30:08
exciting to them. But does Motorola
01:30:10
think that there's like a huge audience
01:30:12
that's like, "Oh man, I can't wait for
01:30:14
the this panone color of the year to be
01:30:15
a phone." I guess they do think that
01:30:17
because we get that every year. And so
01:30:18
here comes Google and they're like,
01:30:19
"We've got this very specific blue." And
01:30:21
no, no, no. It's not the same as the
01:30:22
Pixel 10 blue. It's a certain What are
01:30:24
they calling it? Isai blue. Am I saying
01:30:26
that right?
01:30:27
>> Isul is I think it's named after the
01:30:29
designer, right?
01:30:30
>> Yeah. It seems like this is less about
01:30:32
the color and more about the
01:30:33
collaboration that
01:30:34
>> Yeah. Which that's my next point. That's
01:30:36
a really cool collaboration. That dude
01:30:38
is like a great artist. Why do we get
01:30:40
Wicked and Spongebob themes here in the
01:30:42
States while Japan gets this?
01:30:44
>> I think you know the answer to that
01:30:46
question. Wicked answer because people
01:30:47
here know about this and people there
01:30:49
know about that.
01:30:49
>> How many How many times do we reference
01:30:51
this guy and how many times do we
01:30:52
reference Spongebob?
01:30:53
>> That's fair. That's fair. Um, also
01:30:56
>> a little annoyed just generally about
01:30:58
pixel availability just because it just
01:31:00
came to Mexico like this past year.
01:31:02
There's multiple countries where not all
01:31:04
the features are available.
01:31:06
pixel stuff.
01:31:15
I saw the article and I clicked the link
01:31:17
to watch the video, the video popped up
01:31:19
in 4x3.
01:31:20
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:31:21
>> And it's from Google Japan YouTube
01:31:22
channel with a 4x3 video and I was like,
01:31:25
what?
01:31:26
>> Google Japan is so stylish.
01:31:28
>> It's so Yeah.
01:31:28
>> If you go to Google Japan's YouTube
01:31:30
channel, everything they do is so
01:31:31
awesome.
01:31:31
>> Yeah. But every other Well, not every
01:31:33
other video. The few the other ones that
01:31:34
I clicked on are just regular like 16
01:31:36
by9. This one was 4x3. And I think it
01:31:39
has to do with like the artsiness of it.
01:31:40
But I just found it so interesting
01:31:42
because Google is like the most
01:31:44
corporate corporate
01:31:46
>> company.
01:31:46
>> Yeah.
01:31:47
>> And
01:31:47
>> they're not as corporate as like
01:31:48
Microsoft though.
01:31:49
>> I would disagree. I think they're very
01:31:52
corporate in different ways,
01:31:53
>> I guess.
01:31:54
>> But I think they still have this like
01:31:55
idea of whimsy from back in the day, but
01:31:57
they are super corporate. And the fact
01:31:59
that I clicked on a video and it was
01:32:00
4x3, I was like, whoa.
01:32:02
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was my branding.
01:32:04
>> I have to I have a correction. Cosmic
01:32:06
Latte was not a panone.
01:32:08
>> How dare you?
01:32:09
>> Don't worry. There's already there's
01:32:11
already seven comments.
01:32:13
>> Cosmic Latte was remember like a 10
01:32:15
years ago they were like this is the
01:32:16
average color of the universe.
01:32:18
>> Wa
01:32:19
>> cosmic latte.
01:32:20
>> How do you guys not remember this? This
01:32:21
is like the most Marquette. It's space
01:32:23
and color.
01:32:24
>> That's I and if you can rail against uh
01:32:28
frequency response charts, I'm railing
01:32:29
against average color of the universe.
01:32:31
That is the most useless thing I've ever
01:32:33
heard. What? The average of the
01:32:34
universe?
01:32:34
>> That sounds like something you'd be
01:32:35
you'd be interested in.
01:32:37
>> You can only see like
01:32:38
>> the average of the universe zero is
01:32:40
black. It's nothing
01:32:41
>> black. Yeah.
01:32:42
>> Most of the universe.
01:32:42
>> Is that a color or is that a
01:32:44
>> not according to John's Hopkins
01:32:45
University, bro?
01:32:46
>> All right. All right. I mean, there's
01:32:47
obviously the core of a neutron star,
01:32:49
which is the brightest thing ever.
01:32:50
>> The average color of the universe is
01:32:51
infrared.
01:32:52
>> No, it's
01:32:54
latte.
01:32:55
>> It's in Is it in the visible light
01:32:57
range? Is what you're saying? Is the
01:32:58
average of the universe? You mean if you
01:33:00
compressed it into the visual light?
01:33:01
Seems insane. But you're saying yes.
01:33:03
>> Look, you know, Marquez, I would read
01:33:05
about I don't understand this stuff.
01:33:08
>> I don't understand.
01:33:08
>> For those wondering, the cos the panone
01:33:11
color of the year.
01:33:12
>> It's freaking
01:33:13
>> 2026.
01:33:14
>> Tan, bro, it sucks. It's lame.
01:33:16
>> No, it's blue.
01:33:17
>> No, it's not.
01:33:18
>> Cloud Dancer this year.
01:33:20
>> That's lit.
01:33:20
>> 114201.
01:33:22
>> What? What happened to
01:33:24
>> Yeah. All of a sudden, I'm a big fan of
01:33:25
Panone. That's awesome.
01:33:27
>> No, Adam. I looked up the only other
01:33:29
Google Japan video I could ever think
01:33:30
of, which is their 2022 April Fool's
01:33:32
joke, which was they just made a
01:33:34
keyboard where all of the letters are
01:33:36
one really long stick.
01:33:38
>> Um, and funny enough, it it starts in
01:33:41
4x3 and then when they announce the
01:33:43
board and start swiping down, it expands
01:33:45
to widescreen to put more of the
01:33:47
keyboard.
01:33:47
>> Damn, that's so cool.
01:33:48
>> Wow.
01:33:50
>> Yeah, that was an April Fool's Day
01:33:51
thing.
01:33:51
>> Before we move on, I do you guys know
01:33:53
about Klein Blue?
01:33:55
>> What is Klein Blue? There's an artist
01:33:56
named Eve Klein who made this painting
01:33:58
with this uh paint blue paint that they
01:34:02
mixed themselves and um then they
01:34:05
trademarked it and now they have their
01:34:06
own blue and when you say it it's like
01:34:08
that's stupid. Like you can't use this
01:34:10
color blue unless you pay this guy Eve
01:34:12
Klein.
01:34:12
>> But then you look at the blue and you're
01:34:14
like damn
01:34:15
>> that's a good blue.
01:34:17
>> This is also a bonus episode. If you if
01:34:19
you click on the panone color of the
01:34:20
year it's like please no more. Here's a
01:34:22
payw wall. Sign up for 15,000 colors.
01:34:25
Like I what what
01:34:26
>> dude cloud dancer which is the color of
01:34:28
the year this year. It's just like it's
01:34:30
beige. It's literally beige. There's a
01:34:33
really awesome article.
01:34:34
>> Very specific.
01:34:35
>> I don't care. There's so many colors.
01:34:38
>> There's a there's an awesome article I
01:34:40
think by Mia Sato on the verge where she
01:34:42
went to like the panone color of the
01:34:44
year party.
01:34:45
>> Wow. See this is that's the
01:34:48
>> that sounds of the person who would go
01:34:50
no
01:34:51
>> I'd go to that. I would normally go to
01:34:53
that if it was anything but beige. You
01:34:55
would normally go to the Panone Color of
01:34:57
the Year.
01:34:57
>> Of course.
01:34:59
>> Would you not?
01:34:59
>> That sounds pretty sweet.
01:35:00
>> That's a better than every South by
01:35:02
Southwest party I've ever panone gets a
01:35:05
bad rep because they're one of those
01:35:06
companies that you know
01:35:07
>> is evil.
01:35:08
>> Well, that's the thing is like
01:35:10
>> paying colors.
01:35:10
>> I get the idea like yeah, they're payw
01:35:12
walling colors, but also like
01:35:14
>> thank god they exist, dude. Because like
01:35:17
especially like right now, for example,
01:35:19
right?
01:35:19
>> This should be a bonus episode.
01:35:21
I'm trying to I I got a suit jacket for
01:35:24
a great price on eBay and I'm trying to
01:35:26
find matching pants and I cannot find
01:35:27
pants that are the exact same color.
01:35:29
Like this color matching has just been
01:35:30
and the whole point of panone is
01:35:33
coloratch standardized. So if you see
01:35:35
something on the internet you can just
01:35:36
read that's color 89627. You open up
01:35:39
your book that you paid $10 million for
01:35:42
and you can't leave in the sun.
01:35:43
>> Yeah. Can't leave in the sun. And then
01:35:44
you find 89267
01:35:46
and then you go okay now I'm certain.
01:35:48
and it standardizes it across different
01:35:50
materials, different finishes, and this
01:35:52
whole thing. We We accidentally know way
01:35:54
too much about this and maybe should
01:35:56
actually be a bonus episode, but I am
01:35:58
also fine with trolling Tim and people
01:36:00
who are listening to this by saying
01:36:01
they're payw walling colors. This
01:36:02
month's bonus episode is a Q&A link in
01:36:05
the description to ask your questions.
01:36:07
Please give us questions cuz we don't
01:36:09
have any.
01:36:09
>> You think people are still listening?
01:36:11
>> I know. If you're still listening, then
01:36:12
we want your questions cuz you are in
01:36:14
this with us. So, please,
01:36:16
>> we have a beautiful domain. You can go
01:36:18
>> Oh, yeah.
01:36:19
>> to waveforms survey.com.
01:36:22
>> We're not reusing that at all.
01:36:24
>> Not at all.
01:36:24
>> We've never used that before.
01:36:26
>> We paid for it. It's It's worth
01:36:28
>> So, to be clear, you got to utilize it.
01:36:29
>> We are going to be doing a bonus episode
01:36:31
soon. If you are still listening this
01:36:32
far on the podcast, you are the type of
01:36:34
person we want to answer the questions
01:36:35
from. Go to waveformservey.com.
01:36:38
Ask us questions on an upcoming bonus
01:36:40
episode. We will answer those questions.
01:36:42
>> But you know what else has questions and
01:36:44
answers?
01:36:44
>> What is that, Ellis?
01:36:45
>> You already know. Oh, I left the fader
01:36:48
down.
01:36:50
>> Trivia,
01:36:51
>> trivia,
01:36:51
>> trivia, dude. So, we just spoke about
01:36:53
anthropic uh discovering all these
01:36:55
vulnerabilities in Linux specifically.
01:36:58
It's just one of the examples they used,
01:36:59
but Lionus Torva when he initially made
01:37:02
Linux debated naming it something else.
01:37:04
Was it A. Freaks. A combination of free
01:37:09
freak and the letter X to indicate that
01:37:11
it was a Unix system. B. We changing the
01:37:15
youth in Unix to to we. C. Tiger, which
01:37:20
was the mascot at the University of
01:37:22
Helsinki where he was at at the time. Or
01:37:24
D. Torvvis, a combination of his last
01:37:26
name and his first name.
01:37:27
>> Can you reread the first one?
01:37:29
>> Yo, your weix is showing.
01:37:32
>> Freaks. F R E A.
01:37:34
>> No, but you said what was the reason?
01:37:36
It's a combination. freak and the letter
01:37:39
X to indicate that it was a Unix like
01:37:42
system.
01:37:42
>> I like that it's a combination of free
01:37:43
and freak when it's just freak.
01:37:47
>> Hey, it's a uh
01:37:48
>> That's a tough one.
01:37:49
>> What is that?
01:37:49
>> Or is it F R E K?
01:37:51
>> F R E A X.
01:37:53
>> Oh, free freak.
01:37:56
>> It's a It's a nested acronym, bro. It's
01:37:58
fine.
01:37:59
>> Wow.
01:38:00
>> Um I like that we have multiple chest
01:38:01
trivia.
01:38:02
>> Thank you.
01:38:02
>> It narrows my odds to 25%.
01:38:04
>> Slightly above zero. Can I say
01:38:07
>> when I was looking up Artemis stuff, the
01:38:09
number of how the furthest distance they
01:38:11
were away from the Earth and I kept
01:38:13
being like read it four times cuz I
01:38:15
assumed that was going to be a trivia
01:38:16
question. I'm really upset. This is the
01:38:17
first time I was doing research and I
01:38:19
was like that's going to be a trivia
01:38:21
question. You have to
01:38:21
>> Do you remember it? Was it 252,000?
01:38:23
>> 252 and I think it was like 750 or
01:38:26
something.
01:38:26
>> That would have been a good trivia
01:38:27
question.
01:38:27
>> Well, this is at least now we know
01:38:29
>> now that we're mentioning multiple
01:38:30
choice. The reason why I wanted
01:38:32
specifically to do multiple choices this
01:38:34
week is because YouTube has a feature
01:38:35
where you, dear listener, on YouTube
01:38:38
>> Oh, yeah.
01:38:38
>> can play along.
01:38:39
>> No, that's what the trivia answers are.
01:38:43
>> If it doesn't work, then it ignore all
01:38:45
of this. Is this is it new?
01:38:47
>> Uh, as of like a month ago, and I've
01:38:49
been meaning to bring it up for me and
01:38:50
Ellis, but Ellis today just happened to
01:38:52
pick a multiple choice question. I was
01:38:54
like, "Oh, yeah. I'm going to pick one,
01:38:55
too, so we could test this out." So they
01:38:56
can do this, but they still can't make
01:38:58
an actual time stamp UI.
01:39:01
>> Exactly.
01:39:02
>> The reason I knew is you remember that
01:39:03
headache you woke up with a few days
01:39:04
ago.
01:39:05
>> He wishes he doesn't.
01:39:06
>> No, I neurolked us, bro.
01:39:08
>> We broke into your house. Me and Elon,
01:39:10
we broke into your house and we neural
01:39:11
linked you.
01:39:12
>> Yeah. Well, Glass Wing found a couple
01:39:14
vulnerabilities in that.
01:39:16
>> I nurked me, too. Sorry, that's why I
01:39:17
left that. So, we're we're we're linked
01:39:19
nurly.
01:39:20
>> Okay.
01:39:20
>> 252756.
01:39:22
I was four miles.
01:39:23
>> Is that the panone color?
01:39:24
>> Yes. We'll We'll be right back. We're
01:39:26
right We're We're leaving.
01:39:27
>> It's beige, but we'll be back.
01:39:38
Support for the show comes from Zapier.
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01:39:41
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01:40:30
That's zap ie.com/wave.
01:40:35
Welcome back. Whoop update from my rant
01:40:39
last week, which first of all, I want to
01:40:41
say if you enjoy Whoop and you were mad
01:40:42
at me for saying that, I'm sorry. Enjoy
01:40:44
your Whoop band. I'm way more mad at
01:40:46
Whoop, the company, and their pricing
01:40:48
and how insufferable their CEO is. Um,
01:40:52
but after I ranted about that, a bunch
01:40:54
of fun stuff came out about Whoop, which
01:40:57
really people were amped that I ran
01:40:58
ranted about it despite I didn't know
01:41:00
what was going on. But Whoop is in the
01:41:02
process of suing a company called Bevel,
01:41:05
um, who is very similar to an app like
01:41:08
Athletic Athletic that you use.
01:41:10
essentially an app that can take uh you
01:41:15
know fitness and activity data from
01:41:16
whatever activity tracker you're using
01:41:19
and conclude it into different types of
01:41:22
sleep data and strain data and recovery
01:41:24
whatever all those different things that
01:41:26
every single other thing uses but Whoop
01:41:27
just tells you that they're better at
01:41:28
it. Um but some of the reasons for why
01:41:32
they're suing them is just very funny.
01:41:35
Um do you remember the uh Fine Bros?
01:41:39
Yeah.
01:41:39
>> The Fine Brothers when they tried to
01:41:41
>> they tried to trademark
01:41:42
>> trademark Reacts. Yeah.
01:41:44
>> Because they long story, but they wanted
01:41:47
to own the concept.
01:41:48
>> They basically wanted to own the word
01:41:49
React.
01:41:50
>> Yeah.
01:41:50
>> Just remember that in some of the what
01:41:52
I'll say here. So, Bevel released a
01:41:54
video going over a couple of the things
01:41:56
of when Whoop sent them a cease and
01:41:58
desist and now this most recent uh
01:42:02
lawsuits. Wow. Total brand. We are very
01:42:05
far into this episode and it is showing.
01:42:07
Um, so in their first season exist, they
01:42:09
asked Beville to disable dark mode and
01:42:13
change the name of strain and recovery
01:42:15
as the names of metrics in their app
01:42:17
because I guess those are things that
01:42:19
only Whoop can do.
01:42:20
>> Strain and recovery.
01:42:21
>> Strain and recovery. So the funny thing
01:42:22
about this is uh Whoop only has one
01:42:26
color background which is dark a dark
01:42:28
gray.
01:42:29
>> Uh, Bevel has light mode and dark mode
01:42:31
like every single other app that's ever
01:42:35
been made. Um but and and light mode is
01:42:38
their default, but I guess Whoop doesn't
01:42:40
like their dark mode because it looks
01:42:41
too similar to Whoops. Um and they also
01:42:44
don't like the names strain and recovery
01:42:46
because I guess those are metrics that
01:42:48
Whoop wants to own.
01:42:50
>> Those are things that they've named uh
01:42:53
>> the the compilation of those metrics
01:42:55
might be totally different in Beville's
01:42:56
app, but uh they probably feel like they
01:43:00
want like the word rec like everyone I
01:43:02
know who has a Whoop is like, "What's
01:43:03
your recovery score? There's my recovery
01:43:04
score. How's your recovery?" That's all
01:43:05
they talk about is the recovery. So, I
01:43:07
could imagine an upstart trying to steal
01:43:10
users from Whoop also using the word
01:43:12
recovery very intentionally.
01:43:14
>> It's one of those things though when you
01:43:15
start focusing too much on a word that
01:43:16
has been around forever.
01:43:18
>> Yeah.
01:43:18
>> It's just a pretty common word that fits
01:43:20
in there.
01:43:21
>> If you bring your computer into
01:43:22
recovery, are they going to sue you?
01:43:24
Let's quick caveat though, and this is
01:43:26
not me defending this, but it's a
01:43:28
trademark and not a copyright, which
01:43:29
means part of the nature of a trademark,
01:43:31
if they're if they're attempting to
01:43:33
trademark this, they're trademarking its
01:43:34
use in a specific
01:43:36
>> method context. For example,
01:43:38
>> yeah,
01:43:38
>> here's a great example. I could release,
01:43:42
>> I don't know,
01:43:43
>> body battery.
01:43:44
>> No, no. Well, I'm going to take it
01:43:45
another industry. I could release a line
01:43:47
of protein supplements that I call
01:43:50
Ellis's 1989 Super Protein, but I cannot
01:43:54
sing a song in which I say the line, I
01:43:56
would like to party like it's 1989
01:43:58
because Taylor Swift has the number 1989
01:44:01
trademarked for musical purposes.
01:44:03
>> She does.
01:44:04
>> Yes,
01:44:04
>> you can do that.
01:44:05
>> Yes,
01:44:05
>> I don't like that. So,
01:44:08
>> hey,
01:44:10
>> wow, that's lame. Yeah, I mean it this
01:44:13
is everyone's going to hate like Whoop
01:44:15
suing them because obviously Punching
01:44:17
Down looks terrible, but at the same
01:44:19
time there's going to be a lot of
01:44:20
companies and I have no idea what
01:44:21
Beville's doing. I should probably be
01:44:22
more informed on it, but you know, there
01:44:24
are going to be companies that are going
01:44:25
to try to specifically steal users from
01:44:27
Whoop, probably by mimicking a lot of
01:44:28
their features.
01:44:29
>> Here's a couple of their claims that
01:44:30
I'll read out loud. Um, they claim that
01:44:32
their home screen looks too much like
01:44:33
theirs. That both apps use rings to
01:44:35
represent user strain and recovery
01:44:37
scores near the top. Those rings are
01:44:38
colorful circle circular bars that
01:44:40
increase clockwise. And there's a
01:44:42
coaching feature in a rectangular in a
01:44:44
rectangle using rounded edges and a dark
01:44:46
gray background. So rings with colorful
01:44:49
I mean
01:44:50
>> so
01:44:51
>> like every health metric ever
01:44:54
Fitbit uses it, Apple uses it, Garmin
01:44:56
uses it. All rings with colors that
01:44:58
because colors and strain green and red
01:45:00
are pretty common. Green, yellow, red is
01:45:02
how most of that happens. A rectangle
01:45:04
using rounded edges is a hilarious way
01:45:06
of saying a button
01:45:08
>> every button ever that's been made. Um,
01:45:11
they said that Bevel's app updated the
01:45:13
home screen and uh it's obviously
01:45:16
confusing and substantially similar to
01:45:18
the Whoop app home screen. The only
01:45:20
problem, so the way the home screen
01:45:21
looks, it has three circles at the three
01:45:23
different scores on the top when you go
01:45:24
into it. Bevel originally had it
01:45:27
separated into three rings and Whoop for
01:45:29
a long time was actually only one ring
01:45:31
and then updated their app after Bevel
01:45:34
already had that and now has the three
01:45:36
rings to the point where when they
01:45:37
updated it there was people commenting
01:45:39
on it saying like looks like you're
01:45:40
copying Bevel,
01:45:42
>> but now they're suing them saying it
01:45:44
looks too much the same.
01:45:45
>> Um there's a section that says both apps
01:45:47
use a crescent moon icon to demote
01:45:49
sleep.
01:45:51
>> Denote you mean?
01:45:53
>> Demote. Uh denote. Yeah, sorry. Um, but
01:45:56
to indicate sleep, I think a moon and
01:45:58
sleep is pretty synonymous with each
01:46:00
other.
01:46:01
>> Maybe some Z's.
01:46:02
>> Yeah. And I think my biggest thing here
01:46:03
is, which is, I'm sure in the trademark
01:46:06
lawyer word world, totally fine, but
01:46:09
kind of stupid, I think, is saying the
01:46:11
design's similar and could potentially
01:46:13
confuse people into Whoop's UI. But
01:46:15
Whoop is a thing that only exists when
01:46:17
you are using the product. Nobody is
01:46:20
getting confused if you don't have a
01:46:22
Whoop band and go into the Bevel app.
01:46:25
Like it literally has to
01:46:28
>> Yeah. No one's like
01:46:30
>> buying a Whoop down like you know using
01:46:32
it and doing the setup and then
01:46:34
accidentally in bevel and being like oh
01:46:38
>> I'm Is that really a problem? Like
01:46:40
they're not stealing users. Like the
01:46:43
copyright thing is usually like
01:46:45
>> are you replacing this or are you
01:46:47
supplementing it? If you are replacing
01:46:49
revenue that's coming to that company,
01:46:51
then it's a problem. If you're not and
01:46:53
it's just supplemental, it's usually not
01:46:54
as much of a problem.
01:46:55
>> They're a competitor. So, yeah.
01:46:56
>> Yeah. Well, does Bevel have like a band
01:46:59
or anything or does it just take your
01:47:01
existing fitness?
01:47:02
>> As far as I know, it's only an app and
01:47:03
it takes exist.
01:47:04
>> Can it take the metrics from Whoop?
01:47:06
>> Probably, but
01:47:08
>> I don't know that for sure. And
01:47:10
actually, I wouldn't be surprised if
01:47:10
Whoop doesn't let that.
01:47:11
>> I was going to say Whoop has that locked
01:47:13
down.
01:47:14
>> I don't know how athletic and Bible
01:47:15
work. I just know that they can be used
01:47:17
with different uh you know trackers
01:47:20
whether it's a ring whether it's a watch
01:47:22
whether it's whatever
01:47:23
>> anything but possibly not
01:47:25
>> possibly not whoop I'm not sure
01:47:27
>> so yeah I don't know this really just
01:47:28
feels a lot like the fine bros trying to
01:47:31
trademark
01:47:32
>> well we know how that ended
01:47:33
>> yeah didn't great this is I mean this is
01:47:35
great for bevel because they they were
01:47:37
all over Twitter and probably got way
01:47:39
I've never heard of them before and
01:47:40
probably more people know about Bevel
01:47:42
now
01:47:42
>> I hope it doesn't go too deep but I
01:47:44
think Uh, trademarking recovery and
01:47:47
strain seems like an absolutely insane
01:47:49
thing and a really lame thing to do,
01:47:52
which feels pretty on point for Whoop.
01:47:54
>> Quick clarification, while Taylor Swift
01:47:57
does have the number 1989 trademarked,
01:47:59
the specific trademark violation is she
01:48:02
also has the phrase party like it's
01:48:03
1989.
01:48:04
>> Oh.
01:48:05
>> Uh, she does have the phrase the number
01:48:07
1989 trademarked as well as I found out
01:48:09
in making sure I was correct on that,
01:48:11
she has the phrase this sick beat
01:48:13
trademarked.
01:48:14
>> No. Oh, hell yeah. That's cuz it's the
01:48:15
best.
01:48:15
>> Is it the way she says it? Cuz she says
01:48:17
it's sick B like that.
01:48:21
>> I think
01:48:24
trademarks are really stupid. But I'm
01:48:25
>> so dumb at
01:48:27
>> I do I do understand why they're
01:48:30
>> Well, and it's it's they're different
01:48:31
than like they're different than
01:48:33
copyrights because it's your right to do
01:48:34
business as a thing essentially. You
01:48:37
know what I mean? Like
01:48:38
>> I I don't know. I I think it's
01:48:40
>> I also just want to say Taylor Swift was
01:48:42
was born on December 13th, 1989. And to
01:48:45
imply that she was partying at that age
01:48:47
is just bull. She was at the most she
01:48:50
was writhing.
01:48:51
>> You can't prove that
01:48:53
>> as a party to some people
01:48:54
>> wasn't even sentient.
01:48:56
>> She was not even sentient yet. Also,
01:48:58
>> she was training her AI model in the
01:49:00
early stages.
01:49:01
>> On a list of recent trademarks, she had
01:49:02
recently gotten Female Rage: The
01:49:05
Musical, which I don't even know what
01:49:07
that's about. Um,
01:49:08
>> yeah,
01:49:09
>> but comment down below
01:49:11
>> if you do know what that's about.
01:49:13
>> But you know what? I do know lots about.
01:49:15
>> What is that? The answers to the trivia
01:49:17
questions that you wrote
01:49:18
>> with the fader up this time.
01:49:19
>> Nice. I like that. I like that.
01:49:22
>> Waveform episode 345. Trivia question
01:49:25
number one. That was me pretending to be
01:49:27
JSON
01:49:28
>> Dulo.
01:49:30
>> Sure.
01:49:30
>> That's a sick username. J.Jason Derulo.
01:49:33
>> I think someone already has that.
01:49:34
>> That has to be a real thing, right?
01:49:36
>> Yeah. That's pretty good. Um,
01:49:38
>> we get sued.
01:49:41
>> Where does Anthropic's Project Glass
01:49:43
Wing get its name? A, an experimental F1
01:49:47
rear wing design from the ground effect
01:49:49
era. B, a Central American butterfly
01:49:53
with transparent wings.
01:49:56
C, a type of parachute used by first
01:49:58
responders to jump into dense forest
01:50:01
canopies.
01:50:03
Or D, it's an acronym. General layer
01:50:06
analysis, excuse me, general layer
01:50:08
analysis screening with integrated
01:50:10
neural GPTs.
01:50:15
>> The whole time I you were saying
01:50:16
glasswing, I just kept thinking of
01:50:18
ducttails for some reason. That's all I
01:50:19
could think of.
01:50:20
>> Don't know why. Is there a Darkwing?
01:50:23
Darkwing duck. Okay, that's what I was
01:50:25
thinking of.
01:50:26
>> Wow, what a reference.
01:50:28
>> Wow, we all said the same thing.
01:50:30
>> What' you guys say?
01:50:32
>> All three of us said butterfly.
01:50:33
>> David drew a tooth for some reason. I
01:50:35
>> guys, I think that
01:50:38
>> that means I'm getting worse.
01:50:39
>> You are claim to be an artist
01:50:41
>> cuz you're all correct.
01:50:43
>> On the blog post, they have a picture of
01:50:44
a butterfly.
01:50:46
>> Oh, I didn't go to it during the
01:50:48
podcast, but I was reading it.
01:50:49
>> But am I losing my sauce?
01:50:51
>> No. Thank god. Alice,
01:50:53
>> am I I used to be I used to deliver four
01:50:56
bangers.
01:50:56
>> Yeah, but we never get
01:50:58
>> We're still bangers. We never get points
01:51:00
>> on anthropic points on anthrop. Well,
01:51:02
all three of you got points. So, it's as
01:51:03
if none of you got points.
01:51:05
>> So, I still failed.
01:51:07
>> That's true.
01:51:08
>> Um, it's called Glass Wing from the
01:51:09
Butterfly because also all none of those
01:51:12
other three things are real. I made them
01:51:13
all up.
01:51:14
>> Yeah. Figured
01:51:15
>> uh the metaphor can This is from
01:51:16
Anthropic's actual website in a uh in a
01:51:19
what a one up here and what does the one
01:51:21
mean down there? Um, a footnote. Uh, the
01:51:26
metaphor can be applied in two ways. The
01:51:28
butterflyy's transparent wings let it
01:51:30
hide in plain sight, much like the
01:51:31
vulnerabilities discussed in this post.
01:51:34
>> Semicolon. They also allow it to evade
01:51:37
harm, like the transparency we're
01:51:39
advocating for in our approach.
01:51:41
>> Transparency. Wow. Wow.
01:51:44
>> They background their way into that or
01:51:45
what?
01:51:47
>> They probably asked Claude.
01:51:49
>> Somebody got a raise for coming up with
01:51:50
that line.
01:51:51
>> Claude got a raise. What should we name
01:51:53
this Claude?
01:51:55
All right, quick update on the score
01:51:57
after that correct question.
01:51:59
>> Yeah,
01:52:00
>> Marquez with 21.
01:52:02
>> Andrew with 22.
01:52:04
>> David in the lead with 25.
01:52:06
>> 22.
01:52:07
>> But I'm not around the trade. That's
01:52:09
trademark. Trademark. You're going to
01:52:10
get careful. Careful.
01:52:14
>> All right. When he initially made Linux,
01:52:17
Lionus Torvalds debated naming it
01:52:19
something else. Was it A. Freaks? B,
01:52:24
Wix, C,
01:52:28
Tiger, or D, Torvvis.
01:52:31
>> You know what's crazy? He There's one
01:52:33
thing that Adam left off there which he
01:52:36
was also considering, which was Lionus
01:52:38
tech tips.
01:52:41
He was way early.
01:52:44
I don't know.
01:52:47
Flip him and read. What do we got?
01:52:49
>> Oh, wow.
01:52:49
>> Wow. Wow. You guys are locked in today.
01:52:51
>> Yeah, we're locked in. We're neural
01:52:53
linked.
01:52:53
>> Yeah. All of us said D. Torvaults.
01:52:57
>> Nope. Was it B? It was not B. Oh, good.
01:53:01
>> It was also not C. It was A. Freaks.
01:53:04
>> No way.
01:53:04
>> Yep.
01:53:05
>> Well, I'm glad he didn't do that.
01:53:08
>> F R E A X.
01:53:10
>> Yes,
01:53:11
>> that is simply a bad acronym.
01:53:12
>> Is that a reference to phone freaking or
01:53:14
is that just like you're a freak?
01:53:16
>> What's phone freaking?
01:53:17
>> Really fast. 30 second definition. Um,
01:53:20
phone old analog like landline phone
01:53:22
dialers actually worked by tones. Like
01:53:24
you have a thing like each button
01:53:25
creates a tone and then that tone, you
01:53:27
know, does a program on the other side
01:53:28
of the thing. So someone realized you
01:53:30
could hack into phones by generating
01:53:32
tones and that was called freaking
01:53:34
>> Yeah. But freak phone freaking was P H R
01:53:36
E A K I N.
01:53:38
>> Yeah.
01:53:38
>> Okay. So this was not that.
01:53:40
>> It was the cool version.
01:53:41
>> Yeah. It was Taylor's version.
01:53:43
>> NO, THAT'S ALSO
01:53:45
CAREFUL, DAVID. CAREFUL. Lawsuit lawsuit
01:53:47
lawsuit lawsuit.
01:53:49
And with that, the podcast was finally
01:53:52
over. Again, if you have questions for
01:53:54
us, the comment section is always open,
01:53:56
but if you made it this far, you can, of
01:53:58
course, go to waveforms survey.com
01:54:02
and ask us whatever you want because
01:54:03
we're going to do a bonus episode where
01:54:04
we actually answer those questions. So,
01:54:06
take your time, come up with the best
01:54:07
questions you possibly can. Leave your
01:54:09
whatever questions down below, but come
01:54:11
up with the best questions for waveforms
01:54:13
survey.com and they'll be answered on a
01:54:15
bonus episode. Other than that, thanks
01:54:17
for watching. Hopefully the astronauts
01:54:18
touch down safely in the ocean.
01:54:20
>> Wait, that's waveform with vowels, not
01:54:22
without vowels. That's wave. W A V E F O
01:54:25
R M. Yes,
01:54:25
>> good clarification. Hopefully now they
01:54:27
found it. I don't know whatever freaky
01:54:29
website you went to before, but now they
01:54:31
found the correct survey website. All
01:54:33
right, catch you next week. Peace.
01:54:35
Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and
01:54:37
Ellis River and partner with Vox Media
01:54:38
Podcast Network and Director Music was
01:54:39
created by Vill.
01:54:41
>> You do that early, Adam. Speedun.
01:54:50
Are you looking at the look of glass?
01:54:51
>> No, I'm looking at cosmic latte, which
01:54:53
is the average. It is, see, it is, you
01:54:56
have to read this very carefully. The it
01:54:58
describes the average color of the
01:55:00
galaxy of the universe as perceived by a
01:55:02
typical human observer which to me says
01:55:04
that the average is not actually in the
01:55:07
visible wavelength typically. Okay.
