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I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it was just a really dark time I went out and I knew I had to make it look like an accident cuz I did not want my kids to think that I had
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committed please welcome Jada pinket Smith Jada I knew you as a Hollywood actress I never knew you were the daughter of two drug addicted parents and a teenage drug dealer yourself on
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the streets of Baltimore I really thought I was going to be the next big time female drug dealer I was absolutely
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Fearless but getting 2 n mm pointed at you they pointed two guns at you that's a big wakeup call but what happened
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somebody set me up and then I had to always have this tough exterior now as I'm dismantling my defenses I'm in a really raw place the holy slap what
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happened I knew I was going to get blamed but like it was insane you say protection is your love language did you
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see that as a Act of love the entanglement conversation we broke up and then what did you do J my mother my kids they were like how could you do
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this do you regret putting that out honestly I've got this wonderful picture that I found oh I know that picture do
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you know why this is relevant yeah I lost him back to back that's the way it is I just want to start this episode with a
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message of thanks a thank you to everybody that Tunes in to listen to this podcast by doing so you've enabled
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me to live out my dream but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too it's one of the
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greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life to get to do this to get to learn from these people to get to have these
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conversations to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective trying to solve problems I have in my life so I
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feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is can I ask you a favor I can't
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tell you how much um you can change the course of this podcast the the course of the guests were able to invite to the
00:02:10
show and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing and that simple thing is hitting
00:02:15
that subscribe button helps this channel more than I could ever explain the guests on this platform are incredible
00:02:21
because so many of you have hit that button and I know when we think about what we want to do together over the
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next year on this show a lot of it is going to be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed and that tune into
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this show every week so thank you let's keep doing this and I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show for
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us as a community and for this [Music] platform Jada yes I always believe that in order to understand someone you have
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to understand their context and having read through the entirety of your book there was this line that stood out to me
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which I think might be might summarize the most important part of your earliest context which is when I go in search of the origins of My Broken Heart it is the sense of not
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being the priority to the two people who gave me life that creates a fracture in
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my feeling of worth yeah why did you write that line because it's true you know it's like our parents are like our first
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mirrors and so my parents were really young when they had me I mean my mom was 17 right 17 18 she was 17 when she was
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pregnant I think she was 18 by the time she had me so youth on top of addiction and I just realized you know as I was going through my life in
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different therapeutic settings I was like oh wow like the first mirror I had was kind of non-existent in a way because
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drugs were my parents' priority you know during my upbringing and so I didn't really get the reflection of feeling like a priority to the people
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who brought me into the world now thank goodness my grandmother came into the picture you know and she really she was
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a a beautiful powerful mirror for me that you know even to my you know it's still a mirror for me to this day um where I could see myself I could see
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the beauty of myself I could see my gifts and my talents was through her and what she was reflecting back to me but um I think it's important
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that I think it's important if it's possible for children to feel that sense of um that sense sense of importance that
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sense of priority from their parents I had an air of sort of loneliness as I read through the pages this kind of lonely young girl who was searching to be recognized and loved and
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to someone to sort of hold her hand and guide her through those early years and other than in your grandmother's
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garden with your grandmother it it found like that place of home was never was never really
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there yeah yeah I definitely had it with my grandmother now once she passed that's when I took to the streets to like figure out
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finding my home finding my tribe finding my power finding my identity finding my
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purpose finding my worth yeah your dad mhm Rob yeah he um he took for a walk one day and explained to you why he couldn't be your
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father he did I was seven and um he just said he said look I'm a I'm an addict and a criminal and I can't be
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your father and I was like now mind you he hadn't really been in my life that much anyway I didn't really know he wasn't present in my in my life enough for me to even know what it was like to
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have a father but what I did appreciate in that moment was like wow just thank you thank you for like being honest now I didn't realize at that time because I
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was so young how that would affect my relationships with men ongoing you know as an adult woman um but yeah in that moment I was
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just like thank you somebody is like being honest with me I'm not crazy something is absolutely not right here
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and he's letting me know what that is is and he's saying hey I'm going to keep my distance you
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know 10 years old 12 13 years old what does Jada think she's going to be when she grows
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up at 10 11 12 13 I I definitely was like I wanted to be an artist definitely wanted to be an actress you wanted to be
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an actress yeah I did I did I wanted to be an actress I started very young I was
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doing theater um I think my first professional gig was like seven years old as one of Madame Bon Bon's children in the Nutcracker um and then I was in you know
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different theatrical programs in the summertime and what have you and then the uh when I got the opportunity to join Twigs which prepared you for
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Baltimore School for the Arts I joined that after school program so Arts has always been been a big part of my life
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do you know why cuz when as I read through those early years of your life it seemed that acting was doing
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something the the performance the being on stage the the validation I think it was giving
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you was doing something for you that it might not have done for someone else who hadn't walked the steps You' walked up
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until that point the validation but also an outlet it was a real outlet for me where
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I was able to EXP Express certain feelings that I didn't feel like I had the permission to express at
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home um and um it was a huge it was a huge outlet for me in that way I mean to the point that my theater teachers would often
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tell me um you know they try to steer me into like more why don't you try more comedic roles you know I was always going for the very dramatic very high highly emotional you know uh
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roles um and my I just remember my theater teacher always trying to guide me into diversifying the monologues that I would choose uh for for my pieces to work on
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in class I read um read some books I think one of them was called the body holds the score which talks about mhm the role
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that acting can play as sort of a therapy yeah and it's so it seems to not be a coincidence that
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the amount of actors I've sat here and spoke with who have pretty um Unthinkable Early Childhood experiences domestic violence in the home Etc that then find acting as an outlet for a form
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of escapism almost escaping the identity embodying a different role absolutely totally agree totally agree as I read it in your story I was
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like not another one yes another one it's classic yeah and I I reflect on some of the words you wrote in the early part of
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the book where you're talking about your mother and your father there being domestic violence in the home at an early age your mother running out of the house dropping you on the floor because
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Rob had punched her I believe your father had punched her yeah the these are stories I guess you've heard after the fact from your mother
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yeah but I guess you believe those moments leave a mark absolutely I mean my mother talks about
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it to this day and we'll choke up she'll you know cry it's like it's it's you don't get over things in the sense of like it's forgotten you know you learn to cope with it you heal in a certain
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manner but it still can leave a certain imprint upon you um and even hearing those stories are not easy you know even as an adult because she didn't really give me the details until I was
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was I mean my kids would dag on their adults before she shared with me the level of violence that she dealt with with my dad did it help you understand
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yourself did it help you connect dots I don't know if it helped me understand myself as much as it helped me understand my
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mother and then that helped me understand a lot of how her journey has imprinted upon me in a certain manner you know so I guess it does if you take
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you know through through my mother and her journey helped me understand her journey which has affected me so yeah I
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guess you could say that it helped me understand myself more I say that because I sat with um you know Gabel
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matate gab gab M I do yeah yes yes he was the he's the person that opened my eyes to the fact that even the things that occurred when when we are babies yeah we interpret them to mean um
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certain things about ourselves and he says babies are incredibly selfish so for example if the parents are arguing
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the baby will interpret that is reflection of them MH and I think about the early context that I think I read
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about in your story but also that appears in mine and how I interpreted that to mean that I wasn't enough in
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some way yeah um which is a real through line throughout your story yeah for sure I and I think that probably is probably
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more subconscious unconscious than that which the abuse of drugs and how that reflected to me that I wasn't worthy in a certain manner
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that why is it that this particular substance has more power over you know has more attention more power more influence than me
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to the point that your father will tell you I'm relinquishing my parental rights because
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I'd rather be a criminal on a drug addict than try to get my [ __ ] together for
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you is the way I interpreted that and at the same time was like just thank you for being honest instead of sitting up here pretending like you're doing something different thank
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you you know which a lot of people would do Tony was he your he was your mother's
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first part partner after Rob no she he was her first husband first husband okay yeah after Rob and he seemed to be a pretty solid he yeah he was he was
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indeed it's this guy comes into your life and plays the role of a father by all accounts he seems to do a pretty good job and seems to love on you in a way that is sufficient for a child
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but then he too vanishes out of your life makes a exit makes an acit yeah which I understand you know as an adult now looking back and and looking at the
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circumstances you know he did the best that he could he's a man that was trying to get his life together and my mother
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was was deep in her addiction addiction to heroin at that time and so you you can't you can't
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negotiate with that it's either you want to get help you know um or you have to sometimes you have to make clean breaks I know that now as an adult and you
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don't always know how to play the middle you know and so I get it what does that do to you as a young a young woman who's trying to figure out what where safety is it's devastating ating
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it's devastating I mean I completely abandoned feeling like I could depend on anyone which is why I just took to the streets I was like you know what I'm going to figure
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out how to make money gain power and create a situation where I can protect myself and my mother and make sure just in case she doesn't make it I'mma be
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okay you take to the street when you say take to the streets what you mean by that when I would see you
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know the high rollers the hustlers I was like oh that's what I want you know I want to have the Mercedes I want to have big wads of cash in my pocket I want to have
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friends around me that will protect me and I want to be able to have security and stability created by my own hands I don't want to depend on anybody
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not only do I not want to depend on anybody I can't depend on anyone and so the streets that's where I saw
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security because we didn't have doctors and lawyers you know to look upon you know like that's the aspiration right because in our
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neighborhoods that's what we had we had hustlers right and they had the good life so you
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could be a hustler or you could be a Hustler's girlfriend I wasn't trying to be the girl one trying to be a
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girlfriend and so I'd look to to that lifestyle to offer me the security that I didn't
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have at home as an opportunity for me to create that security that I didn't have at home
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security protection safety these are all words that appear over and over and over again in your book I know right yeah childhood to
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adulthood those are the the most recurring words yep and you you found that security in part through a lifestyle of drug dealing yourself MH um which again I said to you before we
00:17:25
started recording Jada that I knew you as a Hollywood actress you know that's what I that's what I know of you of I'm not someone that's hugely involved in Media or TV or movie so that's what I
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thought I never in my life IM thought of you as the daughter of two um drug addicted parents who had chosen their addiction over you and I never knew that
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you started dealing drugs when you were very very young were you were you not scared dealing drugs in Baltimore
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and you you don't have time to be scared that environment was a war zone right and so it's like stuff was popping off all the time so you just get used to a
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certain level of violence you get used to a certain level of um just vigilance because that's what you're given so you just learn to adapt to that
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kind of environment so the levels what what somebody might consider dangerous for me was just normal it wasn't like ooh I'm going into
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something crazy here you know it's like [ __ ] everything's crazy so what right so
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I look at it now and I go what in the world you know but I have I'm living a different reality in that time when I was living that reality that's what life was and
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everybody that's what we were all living was there moments that were wakeup calls hell yeah and you
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were dealing drug listen getting two n millimeters pointed at you at one time one to your head that's a that that you would think that's a big wakeup call Jay we don't all know what 9 millimeter is
00:19:17
oh you know I guns you know it's two big guns you know when did that happen um I had to
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be 17 17 17 years old because that was my senior year of high school and what what was the reason that
00:19:42
someone pointed two guns at your head I was I had uh posted up in this in the projects in this apartment on the bottom floor where I would sell drugs out of the window or through the door of
00:19:58
that particular apartment and somebody set me up to make a long story short somebody set me up
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and um as I was making the exchange through the door that had the chain on it two guys from the side of the door which I couldn't see because I'm looking through the peephole two guys from the
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side of the door come around and kick the door in and pull out guns Point them to me
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and take all my money my jewelry and stash and I was really lucky to make it out of that alive for sure because the
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person who led that robbery ended up killing two drug dealers um two weeks or a month after put them in a uh put him in a trunk shot the trunk up and uh
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murdered two guys and um he ended up doing life for that but uh I could tell as he was leaving
00:21:07
you know you it's so interesting when you're in moments like that I can still see his eyes as he's leaving me and how
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he's making a choice in the moment of what he's going to do with me and by the grace of God he left me there
00:21:29
why well when and of course I you know my crazy self because of who because of the protection that I was under at the time I called that person I
00:21:42
was like I just got robbed he knew exactly he knew exactly he's like I know who this is don't worry about anything
00:21:50
um I was like I want my [ __ ] back and so we actually um that person whose Wing I was under he made for a meeting for us to meet in
00:22:04
that area a couple of days later he was like you're not going to get your money back you're not going to get the drugs
00:22:09
back but maybe there might be some pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll you know he hasn't sold yet and that's
00:22:15
he was exactly right he had you know a couple chains or whatever and I told I asked him I said
00:22:21
you know why' you just leave me there like and he said you were too pretty and that
00:22:27
was the first time and I talk about this in the book that was the first time that I was like well maybe I am pretty
00:22:35
because I was like maybe I am pretty because you know he cuz this this was a stone cold killer and I talk about even when I met him how he looked like he he
00:22:47
had never felt any kind of love in his life and I'm just I don't know what kind of crazy nut I was at that time I was just so
00:23:00
all I can say is just out of my mind like I was just in such an alter reality I I I really thought I was going to be
00:23:06
the next Queen pen first of all again a lot of people don't know what queen pen is Jan yeah well you know
00:23:12
I thought I was going to be the next you know like big time female drug dealer you know and I really had I I was I I was crazy I absolutely was just a nut
00:23:23
because I had no fear whatsoever I was absolutely Fearless to be rolling with these wolves like this and like it was nothing like it was
00:23:34
absolutely nothing I think about that today I think of my daughter I'm like what the like I don't know all I can and that's
00:23:46
when I know and I think back on everything that I've been through I was like there is a God for sure there was a
00:23:53
God cuz that dude for me to even want to see his face again was like I want my [ __ ] back and he had it he had it for me he
00:24:04
was like there you go you know and so um but it prepared me for Hollywood it prepared me it prepared me big time how
00:24:17
it prepared me in a way because I was running with Killers that's it's as simple as that right so the Hollywood
00:24:25
Flex you know dudes who were presenting themselves as like these powerful you know if you don't do what I say like bro
00:24:38
honestly it it it just didn't resonate that way for me I just looked at it I looked at all of that as just kind of like puppy
00:24:51
play it didn't resonate with you but from the words you describe in your book about how you received in Hollywood it appears that H you didn't resonate with
00:25:02
Hollywood either for a while I did not yeah for a minute this Rough Around the Edges Rough Around the Edges yeah
00:25:09
because I mean it it was part of what was refreshing for a lot of people but it was also the thing that was standoffish too right what is that um I
00:25:20
think just that that edge that I came with that no you know having no [ __ ] to give
00:25:27
basically was just like I'm here to do me what you know and I got something to offer and if you can't see it well then that's on you you're lost you know just that kind of attitude and just kind of
00:25:42
like you know I wasn't your Prim proper uh demure young lady you know it's just kind of like as just rough
00:25:53
rugged and rambunctious since interesting isn't it in life how a certain type of demeanor or attitude or mindset can help us to survive and
00:26:04
thrive in one context but sometimes we need to figure out how to turn that [ __ ] off yes and that's what I had to learn
00:26:10
to do cuz you weren't in Survival anymore I wasn't in Survival anymore you know and I talk about this in the book you know how Warren batty bless him he was
00:26:22
probably one of the first people that was just like hey you're in Hollywood now okay I get
00:26:30
it but why don't you allow people to see some other aspects that charm you have that smile you have like let's take that let's take that chip off your shoulder a little bit you know and he was the first
00:26:43
person really to talk to me in a way that wasn't like making me wrong right he didn't make me
00:26:51
wrong for being who I was he was just like there's so much more to you let people see that you know and that was the first time I
00:27:02
actually listened because he didn't make me wrong and I bet you Warren has no idea that how how much that conversation and the time that he spent with me
00:27:13
really meant to me was really awesome because he was he was so respectful and he really honored where I sat and where you you didn't get that
00:27:27
often in Hollywood it was just like no you got to change this you got to do this different you you'll never get jobs
00:27:33
like that I was just like well then I won't work cuz you know I was very rebellious
00:27:41
sometimes in that way um but yeah he really that really stuck with me and from that day on I just started on the Journey of trying to figure out how to not lose
00:27:54
myself but also feel find a way to feel safe to take that approach because like I said I was around wolves all the time so I had to
00:28:15
always be on guard I had to always have this tough exterior I always had to carry the attitude like I'm not the one you don't want to come over here it's
00:28:26
interesting cuz when you putting up such a barrier to defend yourself um Can often make us quite hard
00:28:38
to form connections yes absolutely the reason I paus there is because I'm thinking about what you said in the book after Tony left you who was your
00:28:49
mother's new husband he left abrupt abruptly after playing the role of of a father and you said the line about um
00:28:56
the rejection was was brutal something broke inside me my grief was Oceanic I put on a li I put it on a library shelf
00:29:03
labeled unlovable and I tried to leave it there that's another word that comes up over and over again this word UNL
00:29:09
unlovable and it's funny because when people are when they feel unlovable themselves they do often put up these
00:29:15
walls which make them it's almost like self-fulfilling it's right you know exactly and that's the essence of what I
00:29:21
felt in J when she arrives in Hollywood is this person who's got this sort of little bit of a tough exterior up but not because not because she's not you
00:29:28
know yeah not because you know it was really just it was it was so many things I was trying to protect it was defense not offense what I'm saying exctly yeah it was and and I still to this day you
00:29:42
know people like you know I still to this day have to like manage that because it's just it's just in me it's just part of me it's something because it was such
00:29:56
a um it was you know it was something that was built at the foundation you know it's in my DNA default it's yeah it's my
00:30:06
default so it's like and I I do it well I can just you won't know anything that's going on but like you said it's like well then you don't give yourself an opportunity to make the connections
00:30:18
that you really want to have and you're going to be misunderstood stood yeah all
00:30:24
the time which that is like that has been my life too just misunderstood another thing I learned from reading the book which is going to shock you that I didn't know but this shows how little I am tuned into media
00:30:37
and Hollywood all that is your relationship with Tupac oh yeah he comes over introduces himself yeah first day of school Baltimore School for the Arts
00:30:50
and um as soon as I walk in he's holding Court he's holding Court he's a like he's a charismatic from day one he's holding Court I'm like who's
00:31:04
who's that peanut head dude over there you know and I'm coming in I'm rocking you know I'm Jada I'm walking in I got
00:31:10
the rat tail I got the fly clothes you know and he turns and we our eyes just meet and I'm like oh and then you know I'm I'm going to hold my court you know
00:31:24
I'm saying and so then he comes over you know my I'm like oh okay cool yeah whatever and so he comes over and he's like hey I'm Tupac and I'm like Tupac
00:31:37
the name from the gate was just like never heard a name like that before that was such a powerful different name and I was like Tupac and he had this big smile and I
00:31:51
was like it's not a lot of people that have that kind of like Charisma and courage to just walk up on me on just
00:31:58
like I'm Tupac I'm you know what I mean you need to know me you know and from the right from there Inseparable we
00:32:05
became the best of friends from that moment on we just connected it was as if we already knew each other it's
00:32:11
crazy people will find it hard to believe that at that age in that environment it wasn't a romantic thing I
00:32:17
know people have had a really hard time you know understanding that Pac and I had a hard time understanding
00:32:25
why it just didn't we didn't have it and I talk about it in the book you know that being on the back of porch of my house and we're like having this discussion I'm like okay Pac just kiss
00:32:38
me and he kisses me and it's the most disgusting kiss between us both I mean he pulled back just like and I pulled back and I was like see dummy you know
00:32:51
and from there it was just like and then there was one more time he kissed me and it was just like like and I talk about
00:32:59
that in in jail when I go to see him in danam Mora that's a whole another thing and once again it's just like dude doesn't work but
00:33:13
throughout our relationship we definitely had this beautiful closeness that was really
00:33:24
intimate but never physically intimate a lot of emotional intimacy a lot of um intellectual
00:33:36
intimacy um we just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very difficult we knew how to get around each other's walls and we didn't get offended
00:33:51
when we would fall into our defaults of Defense which could be be pretty Fierce between the two of us he was quite uh a Powerhouse and so was I we
00:34:06
could be very challenging when we got riled up so arguments we were very passionate but because we were one and the same in that way we kind of understood that language like a this
00:34:17
joke is is you know what I mean so we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time which comes later in the
00:34:24
book yeah when you come from the same place so you know origin stories you don't have that misunderstood thing you
00:34:30
talk about because you understand I just understood him I just understood him and he understood me he really got me and he
00:34:38
really knew how to pull my coattails in ways that a lot of people didn't and same for me with him I just
00:34:46
knew how to reach him in ways that and and that had everything and I think because we didn't have that kind of I think sometimes
00:34:57
physical intimacy can really get in the way MH you know um and I think that God just made it that way in which Gody was like no no no I need you to to be I I I
00:35:10
got a plan so that's not part of plan did you know did you in your heart of hearts know that Tupac was going to go on to do what he
00:35:22
did I knew he was going to go to do something m I did not know he would become the Tupac we know him to be but I
00:35:33
knew he was going to do something great in hindsight when you look back at who he was the character traits the
00:35:39
ingredients that were within him why did he go on to do what he did what was it about
00:35:45
him he wore his heart on his sleeve and he could join you and so what I mean by joining you is that he's not talking at you he's
00:35:56
talking with you he had a way of being able to speak about subject matters that he's going to sit with you in your broken heart and speak to you from there
00:36:15
because he knows that broken heart he's lived that broken heart so and whether it's your broken heart whether it's your rage but he just knew how to penetrate
00:36:30
those emotional spaces in people and that's what I mean by joining you he knew how to join you emotionally in so many different
00:36:40
vertical of emotion you know he was supremely intelligent as well he was so authentic
00:36:49
also and so raw that I think that was really refreshing as well he gave you him and he was Unapologetic so he's going to give you his intelligence he's going to
00:37:03
give you his fear he's going to give you his pain he's going to give you his anger you know he's going to give you his sympathy he's going to give you his
00:37:13
understanding right but it was coming from that that heart space that that that real space within it wasn't a gimmick it
00:37:25
wasn't like oh I'm going to talk about this because this is what's hot no you know right wrong or indifferent
00:37:32
he gave you his truth and some truth people could rock with with them and some truth you couldn't you know what I
00:37:38
mean and um but regardless it was what was real for him at that time he was always authentic but it's not easy it comes with a cost right it comes with a
00:37:51
cost because it's almost the opposite of conformity in a way authenticity yeah exactly and he was a rebel in that way
00:37:59
and I think people really I at at points in his career you know he could speak he would speak for the community and then at
00:38:11
points of his career he would speak from that that really intimate place of woundedness Dear Mama yeah you know that
00:38:19
so many of us related to nobody was speaking to us in that way that could that could go from Ambitions
00:38:31
of a rider to shed so many tears to a soldier Story come on come on you know to I mean he had so he could
00:38:46
speak to us from so many different angles that is just the evidence of authenticity isn't it because people are
00:38:52
multifaceted in their nature no one is just ambition of AI yeah we were all all the shades all the shades right but rap
00:38:59
rap music especially back then was very narrowing it was like this is how to be a rapper so someone willing to be
00:39:05
authentic it's funny I've seen this over and over again they they are the most resonant people in the world because
00:39:10
they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us in that's also what vulnerability does yes that's what you do as well in
00:39:17
this book well thank you because because you're willing to lay it all out we can relate to many people will be able to
00:39:24
relate to many parts of you and you know without books like this we get narrow views and those narrow views those are crafted by other people and
00:39:35
they're the least relatable narratives right yeah and we're also multi-dimensional you moved to LA you're
00:39:42
working three jobs you start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood um at this point you you meet a certain Fresh
00:39:54
Prince the Savior Prince the Savior Prince oh yeah and I was quite shocked by I think of I think of Will Smith I think charismatic he's good-looking guy
00:40:05
yeah you didn't seem to think that way no not at first yeah what did you think at first I mean he was the fresh prince I was like okay he's cool you know but I was like not not not the guy
00:40:20
for me you know why was he too soft I wouldn't say he I wouldn't say soft I would just say that he didn't seem deep and I talk about this in the book
00:40:35
how at that time a troubled dude seemed deep to me versus just troubled it's like stay away from the troubled right and so he wasn't troubled
00:40:50
it didn't seem to be right and so I was like that's not deep like he just seems like you know just didn't draw me in that way you didn't feel the same way anymore
00:41:03
though do the the Deep Parts he's actually yeah exactly yeah yeah don't judge a book by its cover that that's that's what Will Smith told taught me it was like not to judge a book by his
00:41:16
cover and I learned that you know years later when we had an opportunity to have
00:41:22
you know we had a mutual friend and so we were able ble to share some time at Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to see a totally different side of him
00:41:33
Dwayne Dwayne Martin yeah yeah you went to that jacket Potato Place yeah the baked potato mhm what was it about what did you see in will that night I found it really interesting because one of the
00:41:44
things that you described seeing in him was someone who quite was quite adamant in taking over the world yeah he so
00:41:51
ambitious you know and in such a beautiful way he had Big Dreams Big Dreams and um and he was so
00:42:04
joyful he was really joyful but grounded and that was the part that I missed he was grounded it was
00:42:16
like he' been through some things and he was really intelligent so he's what you call you know he go from the hood to the White
00:42:28
House and everywhere in between right and I always find people like that fascinating that have a wide
00:42:39
range within them places that they can go you know you drop Will anywhere and he's going to figure it out and fit in he had asked
00:42:50
you to be his onc screen girlfriend hadn't he he okay yeah so I AUD IED for fresh prins I think it was the second year to pay one of his girlfriends and they were like you're too short I was
00:43:04
like all right cool right and so that was the first time that I actually met will I came out of the the casting and he was you know coming into
00:43:17
the casting office or about to leave or something and he was like Hey I was like yeah what's up you know I was like no
00:43:24
need to talk to me they always said I'm I'm short yeah know so I'm on my way and
00:43:30
then and I think I I think I was probably about 20 um and he wanted he he wanted me to play his you know his girlfriend as a series regular so he
00:43:43
flew in to North Carolina to meet me and I was like n I'm going to do movies now
00:43:50
and he was like all right cool that's a that's a bold that's a big rejection to reject the fresh prince of
00:43:57
ballad when he says you can be his sort of recurring onscreen girlfriend in a hit show and you say TV's not for me I'm
00:44:04
going to focus on movies big cool well I had just done it I had just come off of a different
00:44:09
world and I knew like I had the protection of Debbie Allen on a different world right and so when I
00:44:17
wanted to make moves Debbie was there to help me that's not to say that I would have that same assistance on fresh prints and at that time they locked you in mhm you couldn't do anything you know
00:44:30
what I mean they have you for six years they got you locked and I I just didn't want to be
00:44:35
locked like that and so I really wanted to try my hand at doing movies and then Dwayne Martin when I turned will down Dwayne Martin
00:44:47
got on me because he felt the same way you did it was just like it's Financial Security how could you let something
00:44:53
like this go and you know who's to say when your next starring Mo you know role is going to come in and blah blah blah
00:44:59
blah blah and I was like but I'm so glad that I didn't take that role because I tell you what if I had taken that role
00:45:06
will and I would not have been married and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow and been Trey's bonus mom my life would
00:45:12
have been totally different you sure I'm positive yeah as in you're sure that you wouldn't have gotten married I'm positive because you seen yeah no you
00:45:24
would have seen the red flags listen no yeah no earthquakes are hard to predict sometimes you feel tram is ahead
00:45:34
of time often they come on suddenly and in your early 20s you had your first maybe not even your first but
00:45:42
what you describe in the book is your first breakdown personal earthquake when you're driving down the street one
00:45:49
day mental health and Psychiatry have come a long way since then um I I I would guess that at the time many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was I had no idea what was going on me
00:46:04
just thinking about that moment just it's like um I was so overwhelmed you know and I was like I I didn't know what was going
00:46:16
on with me and it came over me in an instant I was fine one moment I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that you know I
00:46:27
saw to say and to say hello to her and all of a sudden my body shaking all these emotions come over me and I I'm like I'm starting to it's like waterfall
00:46:40
of like tears and I I'm like and I have no idea like my brain is not catching up
00:46:45
to what is happening with my body all I know is that this waterfall this volcano
00:46:54
of emotions It Was Fear anger Despair and I was like I I got and she was looking at me like are you okay and I was like I don't know I you know and I
00:47:06
get in the car and I'm trying to drive and I'm like you can't drive pull over and then I pull over and then I just
00:47:20
remember feeling terrified to just let it go and I let it go and then I'm like I want to die I want to die and I
00:47:33
remember making it home and all I could do was call my mother and say you got to come here I'mma kill myself you know and I think about that
00:47:46
and I'm just like wow and my mother was like she was maybe a year into her sobriety right and what a terrifying call to get like if I get that call from Willow or
00:48:00
Jaden or Trey I'm just you know it's like and um so she's figuring out because she just started a job at this
00:48:13
hospital I'm so terrified to be by myself I call my H girl MC light and I tell her like you got to come out here I'm afraid to be alone by myself I'm
00:48:26
going to do something to myself and she flies out and so she holds me down until my mother comes it's a crazy
00:48:42
moment have you figured out what what your body was telling you I think my body was telling me that
00:48:52
I think my mind was telling me hey we have some things we got to pay attention to up here enough with let's
00:49:06
keep it moving I'm going to make it so you're not going to just be able to keep it moving anymore you have some things
00:49:13
that you got to pay attention to some things that need to be addressed and at the
00:49:20
time like you were just talking about nobody was talking about Mental Health at all and specifically mental health was
00:49:32
considered like a white people thing black people don't have mental health issues right and so suicide for sure was
00:49:43
a white people thing so I was real confused I I felt really I felt like something is is has gone really really really wrong here
00:49:58
because nobody else like me feels like this nobody knows what's going on and maybe I'm losing my mind I'm actually going crazy no so it was a scary
00:50:15
time when I read about that it sounded to me like you had been you've been playing defense for just a little bit
00:50:21
too long yeah for sure for sure and that's I guess one of the costs of the the toughness right they're like as you say we'll just keep it moving we just keep it moving nobody a me are they no
00:50:35
it's going to catch you you can deal with it or it will deal with you those are your Cho those are your two
00:50:42
choices but you you did keep it moving even in that moment it seemed it seemed like you you carried on with the work um
00:50:50
I think you were you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist right yeah I went to see a psychiatrist they put me
00:50:56
on um Prozac and I I started therapy I started therapy but it does still appear that you kept it moving because you you kept working you didn't seem to want to show
00:51:09
anybody outside of your sort of inner circle hell no why absolutely not because that's what we do we keep it moving right and so I was like I got the
00:51:21
help that I need I got a doctor and I'm on Prozac just like right so I'm like okay I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing
00:51:32
and I can't let anybody know and we're GNA keep this moving because that's what we do plaster over cracks yeah we just at
00:51:45
that time I'm going to take a break because you know I'm having I'm depressed what at that time that that seem absolutely ridiculous quick one I
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00:54:04
you go back to Baltimore I did I went back to Baltimore um and because I was going to continue working but not live in LA
00:54:16
anymore and so I bought a farmhouse I bought a little farmhouse on I want to say it was about 6 Acres maybe six or nine acres if I remember
00:54:29
correctly and it was um I was going to build a life there for myself in a little quiet corner and you know I was like all right
00:54:40
I'll if I need to audition I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from
00:54:46
La I will was trying to hit you up at this this point in your life yeah he hit me up he had just Sheree had just sent him divorce papers and um he decides to
00:54:59
call me and of course me not knowing anything about marriage thinking that marriage you know break up of a marriage
00:55:05
is like breaking up with a boyfriend he's like you know um where are you and I'm like I'm in Baltimore you know renovating my house and he's like are you seeing
00:55:16
anybody and I'm like no he's like good you seeing me now and I was like what once again that kind of bold you
00:55:24
know approach I was just like oh clutch my pearls a little bit so he was like you know call me when you get back to LA
00:55:33
so when I got back to LA I called him and we went out on our first date in and around that time pack had
00:55:38
been sentenced to Rikers right he'd been sent sent to jail for he been sent to at
00:55:44
that point in time he was at Rikers but then he was on his way to damura which is a horrific place where they send
00:55:51
terrorists yeah usually yeah I think the 9/11 some of the people that were involved with 911 or the well Trade
00:55:57
Center bombings were sent to damura um while he's in jail while he's in jail what do you have
00:56:09
here oh yeah now as I slip from grace and the world has turned against me a few claim to have love for me but once again you show your love after deep reflection and
00:56:22
spiritual awakening I have come to realize the friend love and soulmate was there all the time I have not seen or
00:56:29
felt from anywhere anyone the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me that is why I want to commit myself to you I want to marry you he sends you that letter yeah he it's much longer letter
00:56:42
than that but that's the words that I put in the book a marriage proposal that's why he was in Rikers when I went to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is
00:56:53
actually that's a really danur might be where they put terrorists Rikers is like I remember going to see him there and
00:57:19
um he was in such bad shape you know and um I Rikers I like yeah Rikers was bad danur yeah terrorists are there
00:57:40
but far more Humane conditions than I would say Rikers it feels it feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you when you think back to these
00:57:55
these moments in your life oh yeah it feels like I just came back from seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave him there was just like
00:58:09
yesterday but I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now as I'm thawing out as I'm dismantling my
00:58:19
defenses you know I call it the thaw out so I'm I'm in a really raw place obiously Pac was he gets out of jail and sugaright I mean talking about timing I
00:58:30
think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for Tupac's
00:58:35
murder a lot of emotions yeah how did you feel when you heard about the um conviction or that someone had that arrested an arrest had been made
00:58:48
um I was like I was glad that an arrest had been made this this was someone who we had known had been in the car he
00:59:00
he had had done some Street interviews about it you know um and I was just hoping I was like
00:59:09
well I hope they're bringing him in because we're going to get some other questions
00:59:16
answered so you know my hope is that we'll get more questions answered in the book you question but then you
00:59:28
confirm that pack Tupac knew how you felt about him when he passed away because you and him hadn't been speaking no and I think there's a really important lesson in in this for all of
00:59:41
us yeah yeah we had a we had a huge fight huge it was one of the biggest fights we had ever
00:59:53
had and and [Music] um and it was about how he had been living you know and uh I
01:00:10
really at that time you know really had to let him know my position that I just felt like you know where he was sitting with
01:00:23
everything was just just it wasn't going to end up well right and we had a magnin I mean it
01:00:47
was just beyond the two of us just at each other um and I was just like [ __ ] that I'm not calling him this time he's going to have to call me he was way out of
01:01:03
line so I really dug my heels heels in the ground in regards to like nah you I let my pride I let my ego come in I really took for granted that he
01:01:16
would be living forever like he had already survived so much like it never like I never I I looked at Pac as being Invincible at this point you know cuz he survived so much
01:01:29
even so much that people don't know about you know um but just like I say in the book I'm like man don't do
01:01:42
it don't do it don't don't don't hold on to like that prideful part of yourself you know with someone you really care about like no you know he going to have
01:01:55
to call me this time you know I was like nope was that the last time you spoke to him that was the last time I spoke to
01:02:01
him that was the last time I spoke to him I was the last time I spoke to him and you know what's crazy it meant absolutely
01:02:15
nothing it meant absolutely nothing and so that's the test I always have I'm like okay you're in this beef with
01:02:23
somebody will this beef matter on your deathbed and then right away I'm like nope let me give him a call you know what I'm saying that's my that's my
01:02:40
test almost a year later he gets shot in Las Vegas you get a phone call while you're filming on set that he's from I believe from his mother um Shakur and
01:02:51
saying that he's in hospital in a coma and a few days after that you find out that he's passed away yeah I was on my
01:03:00
way you know fa was like no rush he's going to be fine um he had his fiance there with him and his family
01:03:12
um she was like so you know come after your trip in New York so I was on my way to him and
01:03:25
my girlfriend Fawn came to the door and she I I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was
01:03:34
gone oh I know that picture yep that was Thanksgiving he came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with me and we were at one of my friends
01:03:47
house you look like brother and sister yeah we look like brother and sister because that's what we were yeah he came
01:03:55
to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me we talked about mental health earlier
01:04:01
do you do you know how to grieve someone the loss of someone like like that in your life no I'm still I'm still um
01:04:09
working out my relationship with grief actually yeah I haven't I haven't really I yeah I'm
01:04:22
still working that out because this chapter of your life was loss mhm unor loss chapter 12 of your book I've got this other picture that I
01:04:35
found that I thought was um relevant oh now you do you know why this is relevant I do Maxine and and Tupac are both in that picture same
01:04:53
picture do you have a tissue thanks thank you give nice hugs um yeah that's a yeah
01:05:53
sorry yeah I am I lost Maxine and Pac back to back so like to you know this picture to be flanked by
01:06:08
them yeah I lost them back to back maxing was a good friend of yours um pack was your brother yeah and she was like my sister you know she um
01:06:25
I met Maxine on Jason's Lyric and uh we became like super tight and she lived in Canada and so she wanted to come to Hollywood
01:06:43
and make a career for herself so I told her that she could come live with me so she came to to live with me um she we we feel feel as though she
01:06:58
um had a misdiagnosis that she had some kind of thyroid disorder that really um disrupted
01:07:11
her psyche mhm and um she ended up jumping off her mother's balcony committed she committed
01:07:22
suicide um so that was really tough it seems it seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your
01:07:37
life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss you know because in all these
01:07:44
situations as you write about in the book there are reflections where you you say in the
01:07:50
book If I you know you're left with this feeling if I'd done this I could maybe I should have done it like this or I wish
01:07:56
I'd treat that situation differently in hindsight as we know is a wonderful thing isn't it right you know and I've sat here with a lot of people that have
01:08:02
lost a lot of people by by Suicide and they all have the same Reflections yeah they all have that last phone call with
01:08:08
the person where they had to put up a boundary and yeah you know I've sat here even in LA in that chair with I remember
01:08:16
BOS um her her partner at the time calling and saying listen if you don't come and do this I'll jump off this
01:08:22
bridge and then he does and yeah it's like that existential disappointment of just life being what it is it's like grieving that
01:08:40
grieving it's like she in a she went from this like happy person like having this condition that just
01:08:55
right and so I just sometimes I just go this is when I just have to like reconcile with God it's like wow God like you really be
01:09:09
doing some stuff like you know what I mean and it's like and sometimes I get in grief around what life
01:09:18
is and then I have to make peace with it feels thinking about your story it feels confusing that God could seemingly
01:09:34
hand someone so much you know wonderful career wonderful family all of those things but at the same time and maybe
01:09:42
maybe there's a relationship maybe there's a relationship between the two because had you not had the had you not
01:09:48
come from where you came from maybe you wouldn't have had all the wonderful things that you have but also had you
01:09:53
not come from where you came from maybe you wouldn't have experienced all the loss that you've experienced MH so maybe
01:09:59
there's a relationship between the two because I've not experienced that loss but I don't come from where you come from so I didn't lose friends growing up
01:10:06
right I didn't lose friends in in the in my 20s either right um having all the different experiences
01:10:13
that I've had as painful as some of them are it gives me the opportunity to join
01:10:19
people in a certain manner you know and in really powerful places you know like I have a beautiful friendship with
01:10:33
um Lauren London and she is the Widow of nipy hustle and because of the loss that I
01:10:45
went through with Pac I could reach out to her and I could go hey anytime you need anything anytime you need to talk I'm
01:11:04
here and Lauren's quite like me defenses you know what I mean but I just kept walking closer and closer and I just say all that to say that we've been able to meet each other
01:11:18
in a certain place because of the type of losses we've had mhm that can really create beautiful
01:11:32
connection you feel me I feel you yeah so there are blessings and pain you just got to you just got
01:11:45
to know that to be true and wait for that door to open you know and that's just one one
01:11:52
tiny example example of like the blessings that I've found in a lot of the loss that I've had in my life in general you know there's almost an
01:12:05
irony or a paradox in the fact that your pain caused a disconnection but then the
01:12:10
pain caused connection deep because heartbreak there's this beautiful scene in heartbreak which is like it breaks you open breaks you open and you got two
01:12:29
places that you can go you can go into the deep Wells of Darkness or you can go into the deep Wells of light and I've been to
01:12:45
both and I've learned I ain't trying to be over here no more you know what I mean so I always use heartbreak discontent
01:12:58
pain to help me search for bright light and beautiful blessings within them in the opener of the book you described in the prol the life that the
01:13:11
world would have seen in over the next sort of 10 years of your life before you before you turn 40 you describe the you
01:13:19
know your super successful Hollywood actress you've got this husband who is you know Will Smith and he's a super successful Hollywood actor you got these kids you got the family you got the
01:13:30
house you got it all yeah externally you're killing the game so internally you must be killing the game right
01:13:36
internally you know I was spiritually bankrupt right I I find it so I found it so interesting hearing you describe the
01:13:47
relationship that both you and will had as it relates to conflict resolution uhuh I find it so interesting cuz I've
01:13:54
come to learn over the last couple of years that the way we deal with conflict predicts the long-term health of our relationships oh God yeah and I think
01:14:01
there's this professor professor I think it's called professor John gotman who studied couples and tried to figure out why they end up in divorce and he says
01:14:08
the number one reason is because they build contempt contempt that's all about conflict
01:14:13
resolution how you're dealing with your [ __ ] yes absolutely now you remind me of my partner because she wants
01:14:20
connection she wants to talk she wants to resolve things she's you know she wants to deal with the emotions
01:14:26
I would like to not I will buy you something to make sure that you're safe right I'll pay for your stuff right but I just want to work yeah and I and that's the way you
01:14:39
describe and so I resonated with Will in that but I I you sharing how you felt throughout that story helped me to understand my partner and all the conversations she's had with me about
01:14:50
what she actually wants from me and me misunderstanding her because we have different Love Languages yeah and your love language
01:14:57
starts when you're a kid right yeah for sure and wills does too absolutely what was that conflict of Your Love Languages Wills you know was very much like yours it's like M I want
01:15:11
to work I want to work hard so that you can have everything in the world that you'd ever want you know I'm you're not
01:15:19
going to need for anything right am I Lov like was like but I just want you to be here with me I
01:15:26
don't need all of that stuff I want to look in your eyes and you know feel your love and feel your protection here with
01:15:33
me and you know it was like that connection I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a masterpiece out of our connection you
01:15:44
know and he wanted to make a masterpiece out of you know the the the life itself right and neither's wrong wrong neither is wrong and that's what I
01:15:58
had to learn that that that's where we we've come to now and understanding neither
01:16:04
one of those wants are wrong how do you balance them because it can't be one or the other how do we balance it like yin and
01:16:17
yang everything about life is balance so I just want you to know that you're your partner you talking to me yeah just I just want you to know that because in in
01:16:29
as couples we get into these power struggles no my way is right no my way is right well if you didn't have this
01:16:35
you know you know it gets into all of that right and it's like stop it's not about anybody being right or wrong how do you get the balance of it
01:16:50
that's it right and so yeah it took Will and I three decades CHR I haven't got that kind of time yeah three decades okay three decades that's
01:17:05
what we'll get to that will get you it doesn't have to be that you know it's like do it now cuz that's what I've said to my girlfriend is I've told her that I've
01:17:19
got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career so I just want to f for now and then we're going
01:17:24
to have all of our lives together I actually said that to her one day and she reminded me of it a week later when we were arguing yeah I was like we're
01:17:29
going to have all of our lives together so like we'll connect later yeah we'll connect later it's like what kind of
01:17:35
foolishness is that you know what I mean and I'm going to tell you like this I bet you when you're on your deathbed you're not going to think
01:17:48
about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve what do you think you're going to think about most when you're on your deathbed how you were loved and how you
01:17:59
loved no 100% okay and even as I said it I thought about Tupac and how you never
01:18:06
know how long you've got left with someone you don't know why would you ever want to wait and put that off it's
01:18:13
an excuse though isn't it it is an excuse to justify my own toxic or holism well you know I wouldn't call it toxic I'm I'm I'm always careful with this word toxic that we're thrown around
01:18:25
right cuz we're all so wounded exactly and it's not listen when intimacy makes us have to look at our
01:18:38
[ __ ] right it's easy to go I piss you off I got you this diamond ring I got you this you know beautiful bag I'm gonna take you on this trip it's like
01:18:49
right but like real emotional intimacy see we got to we got to deal with our stuff a lot of stuff comes up
01:19:01
there but that's where that's where connection and love and true happiness true fulfillment is what's going on in our inner
01:19:16
landscape you talk of this loss of identity when you married will and this quote I wrote down it feels like I can't grasp my own Journey at times I feel resentful and angry I don't know what to
01:19:30
do about it you and will had these two sort of different Visions for happiness in your lives together his being that he
01:19:36
wanted to take over the world as a global you know movie star all the things that he is um and within there you start to lose yourself a little bit
01:19:42
it seems this word resentful yeah very interesting word yeah can you give color to that word why you why you chose to use that word cuz it's true you know it was
01:19:56
like I felt as though at that time all right if if I'm I I want to help you do all of those things I'm here
01:20:10
to help you with that right um and I'm like and in return I should get a bit of what I want which is connection
01:20:23
right and so you just for me just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving and forgiving
01:20:30
forgetting well not even forgetting not realizing that I was abandoning myself in the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this if I just keep pouring into him if I keep pouring into his
01:20:48
dream I'm going to eventually get what I want right and that's a false idea in so
01:20:56
many ways right the I and so many of us do that if Will looked back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was I was asking
01:21:08
for it wouldn't he wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway because if I'm not connected to myself if I don't have a good relationship with
01:21:18
me there's nothing he can do so I was going to be asked out anyway you know what I'm saying so it's like that's part of the journey there's no right or wrong
01:21:30
everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories there's no good guys or bad guys we're
01:21:36
all wounded trying to figure this [ __ ] out you know and so it took me a long time to realize it is not his responsibility to make you happy he
01:21:50
can't it's impossible possible but it took me forever hardheaded stubborn you know because that romantic idea and that's
01:22:03
why I talk about checking the boxes it's like I did everything I was supposed to
01:22:10
do you get to have your dream how come I'm not having mine and that's because will was doing what he wanted to
01:22:16
do he was making himself happy he was making himself happy and he says that to you doesn't he
01:22:24
he says you when you separate he says he wants you to go and he's like go go go make yourself happy go make yourself happy and how did you receive that not
01:22:40
well not well because you know there can be truth but you know what I'm saying it's like how we you know I think it was very true but
01:22:52
I think think at that particular point of time I was just still really resentful I'm just like you know oh so I
01:22:59
helped you get your happiness now you just going to you know throw me to the curb and you know I got to do it all on
01:23:06
my own now you know but that's the truth I had to do it on my own you know just like he did you got to do it on your own you got to do it on your
01:23:18
own you got to do it on your own and a lot of that's what this this is about and me detoxing
01:23:30
from needing fulfillment and validation outside of myself detoxing from needing it from will my marriage my
01:23:43
family a career like I had to get to the Bare Bones of Jada and walk what I call the exiled lands and those exiled lands are going into
01:23:55
the crevices of you know those places within that were holding me back from myself all the fears all of the false information and false ideas of what life
01:24:10
is and what a marriage is supposed to be and you know who I was supposed to be what a wife is like all of it perfectionism perfectionism
01:24:24
and then I just went off to be completely imperfect and took joy in that because
01:24:30
being in Hollywood I mean this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism I think every looks
01:24:36
perfect on the surface yeah and I think it's not a healthy idea it's just not healthy and it's not true and nobody can
01:24:50
live up to that you know which is why I've been dismantling that need to be perfect for myself and that's been a painful ride
01:25:03
but leading up to your 40th birthday which is also where the book starts MH I I read the first pages of the prologue and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading because the place
01:25:17
you're at in your life this chronic state of discontent that you describe I I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book which is no socker Mom
01:25:29
here that was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot of lot for me to take M hearing that that's
01:25:35
what was going on in your head and your mind that's the way you viewed life you didn't see any path forward for you um
01:25:41
you're 39 years old um apparently you know on the surface it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream
01:25:47
of having but internally there's this chronic state of discontent tent yeah if I was I often say to people if I was a fly on the wall but if I was a fly inside the walls
01:26:05
yeah what were you what was going through your mind 39 years old about to turn 40 oh I was in a very very dark
01:26:17
place very dark place just I remember the I read where you said if I got to 400 p.m. every day I was like I made
01:26:28
it I made it and even that was like so hard I mean you know I was talking to my mother this morning because she just read the book and she said I can't
01:26:38
believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying really yeah and I was like you
01:26:45
know Ma I I just I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of
01:26:52
you know and what she brought up was like she knew I was unhappy but she didn't know
01:27:05
why so it wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really unhappy it's just that everybody believed what I believed which is why it was so hard for me to talk about which
01:27:17
is like you've got everything what are you unhappy about right and so that's how I was feeling you've got everything what are you unhappy
01:27:29
about and that was just I had so much shame around that because I didn't understand and even then there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental
01:27:45
health and so I was just like [ __ ] it I can't keep doing this I went out and it was just a really really dark
01:27:59
time when you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor no
01:28:06
I'm saying I was looking to the point where I was like big sir I knew exactly the route to drive and it's this really narrow route and sometimes it gets really foggy there
01:28:18
at night and you I'm not I'm not making it out of that out of that drop I I remember driving that one time going to Big Sir because I
01:28:31
was looking like here like on mahand I was like these drops aren't going to like I need a drop that I'm not making it back I don't want to be disfigured I
01:28:42
don't want I want out and I knew I had to make it look like an accident because I did not want my kids to think that I
01:28:49
had committed suicide no I was I was yeah I was in a lot of pain I was in a really really dark place and when
01:29:03
you're in that place you just can't see your way out and you really think I really
01:29:11
thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't matching the ex exterior of my life so I really did feel like I I was
01:29:27
just born broken and I was just wired in a way that just what was the truth if that's how you felt what was in
01:29:41
hindsight now what do you know to be the truth of that emotion and that state of your life 39 40 years old what was actually going
01:29:50
on that I really feel like that sometimes when we get into these states of wanting to die you know for those of us who have had like suicidal thoughts and what have
01:30:04
you sometimes it is chemical that's a different thing I think mine was more psychological something is asking to die but not
01:30:16
you and it's a it's it's a different way of looking at things right and so and it's it is a it
01:30:29
is a extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of self-hatred I was in a psycle of self-hatred that I didn't even
01:30:45
know cuz we're unconscious of it so the mind is tricking us you know what I mean we got to be careful with this this isn't as reliable as we think you know
01:30:59
and so um but I was in a I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it wasn't until thank
01:31:08
God for my son that I was you know he introduced me um his friend's father did iasa and they happen to be talking about it and they
01:31:21
talk to me about it Jaden came in the kitchen he's like you got to sit down with Moises and Mato you got to hear
01:31:26
about this experience ma that their dad had was Jaden saying that intentionally did he know that you needed that no he
01:31:33
wasn't saying that in he was just curious he was just he knows I'm curious he knows I'm a Seeker right
01:31:39
right that was divine and so I went and talked to them and I was like hey is your dad in town
01:31:45
and then their dad came and I talked to him and he I was like I need that and then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own
01:31:59
ceremony for days of like intense tense ceremony but that's when I got to see that cycle of self-hatred I was like this is
01:32:12
you these are your thoughts this is how you feel about yourself this is the problem and so the medicine really showed me
01:32:25
this pit of self-hatred I was in and it helped me get out of it chapter 20 of the book you you titled surrender yeah
01:32:39
surrender is an interesting word why is surrender so important in your journey you have to surrender everything you
01:32:45
think you are and everything you think you know I've spoken to a lot of people that have done Alcoholics Anonymous and
01:32:51
they talk about the importance of surrender yeah it's like surrendering you know for
01:32:57
me also surrendering to a power a higher power and that's a constant that's every
01:33:05
day I have to remind myself and deep in my surrender to a power far greater than
01:33:13
myself chapter 21 the holy joke the holy slap and the holy lessons it's interesting because there's Sim ities between chapter 19 and chapter 21 in that you took a lot of the blame
01:33:28
for situations chapter 19 the entanglement conversation yeah because when you watch
01:33:35
that clip online at the at the red table will looks tired and he looks sad and he
01:33:40
says that thing he says I'm G to get you back yeah it did it made it look like you had cheated on him or something I
01:33:45
have to like check the facts because if you see that clip in isolation it looks like you cheated on will or something which is not what happened
01:33:52
yeah but you put that out anyway you you could have not put that out I know do you regret putting that out no you don't
01:33:58
I don't if I didn't put that out I wouldn't have seen that next place of healing that I needed because I can take so much
01:34:13
like discomfort it wasn't until I saw how the people around me were affected did I mean my mother my kids my friends
01:34:28
people like they were like how could you do this and I was like well I just wanted to end
01:34:40
everything you know will wasn't ready for the world to know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives and I just
01:34:52
took it because I just wanted to stop I just want it to end people are like no my mother was
01:35:00
like what are you she was like you need to get your ass in therapy she's like you are codependent
01:35:08
as hell you know and everybody was just so and then how people that love me so much were affected by that
01:35:19
time I don't think it would have penetrated and for me to really look at that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the
01:35:32
people around me reacted because I don't really care about public in that way like most
01:35:38
people do I don't whatever because I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that but people who
01:35:45
love me I needed that mirror to see that place of healing that needed to happen in me in the dynamic Within Myself what was that Dynamic within
01:36:00
yourself just like martydom oh okay throwing yourself under the yeah that martyrdom that I'm I will martyrdom the
01:36:08
holy slap yeah you you you write about in the book how you didn't realize that will had actually slapped Chris yeah
01:36:14
until much later you thought it you suspected maybe it was a skit or it was a skit and then I realized it wasn't but
01:36:20
I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris looked like he ducked it social media grabbed onto this eye
01:36:26
roll mhm and they um social media believed that that ey roll was some kind of like go get him will yeah and even if it was it was like I can't force will to
01:36:38
do anything you know and you will weren't together we weren't together as you know we were family I was there with
01:36:46
him as family but we weren't together at that time were you surprised by the reaction
01:36:51
and to that moment both for you but also for will yes and no I was surprised at how much I knew I
01:37:03
was going to get blamed but like I didn't think that it was going to be I I mean it was insane you know it was like
01:37:10
wow um but I knew I knew we would have I knew it was going to be a storm in the book you say protection is your love language mhm he protected you didn't he
01:37:22
um did you see that as a Act of love you know it's a really complicated moment it's a really complex moment I would say yes and no in a certain manner
01:37:37
you know um but I definitely think in his way but it was it was so much more it wasn't about me that's why it's complex
01:37:52
right it's like it was about a lot more than just that moment a lot more than just me that's what I know you know what I mean
01:38:03
cuz you know well and you know where he's come from and yeah and I I there was a lot that was stirring up for him
01:38:09
at that time because of emancipation and he and Chris have their own history going back to the ' 80s yeah going back to the 80s and it's a deep one J
01:38:21
thank you thank you for writing this book because it's it's not until we understand people's context that we understand them and when we understand them we realize that they are just so
01:38:33
much like us yeah in the wounded the imperfect the survival the defense and all of those things and that's exactly what I got from Reading worthy um but also as I said to you I think before we
01:38:46
started recording there were so many moments in there that acted as the advice that no one around me could have
01:38:51
given me because they've not walked in those stairs you act as an elder to me in the book because you you've helped me
01:38:56
to figure out and shine a light on a certain area of my behavior which comes from um maybe a wound that I have that is going to hold me back and lead me to a place I don't want to go to I promise
01:39:08
you yes yeah exactly and you're right you use the word breadcrumbs but that's exactly what the book is it's these
01:39:14
these it's your story but throughout your story you leave these little nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will
01:39:20
guide those that read the book to a better place in their own lives and they can subjectively Define what that better
01:39:26
place is but the wisdom is enduring because the wisdom is human and it's true so there's something in there for everybody it's one of the best books
01:39:32
I've ever read because of the the writing style the vividness I I felt like I was in your grandmother's Garden
01:39:37
I felt like I was there at um all of the key moments when when you have what I describe what I thought was a panic attack on the highway and those moments the moments of sadness the vividness of
01:39:48
the writing is so is so profound but the vulnerability of the book is the most impressive thing it's easy not to be
01:39:55
vulnerable it's easy to paint a narrative that is self- serving but that's not what you do here you seem to
01:40:00
be in the pursuit of the truth and that's exactly what I take away from this book so thank you so much J thank
01:40:05
you thank you for creating a safe space at your gray table and uh for holding my tears today I appreciate that thank
01:40:18
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