00:00:00
I remember the day I remember being at home and and getting the news and laughing and crying and then it hits you
00:00:07
I was very uh very upset by it and he was just just so funny you a fantastic crowd thank you very much thank [Applause]
00:00:22
you would you please welcome Jimmy one of the most respected and best love comedians in the world the king of on liners okay strap in
00:00:33
everyone you ready I'm going to start teaching comedy because it teaches you how to come up with original thoughts to
00:00:39
find your voice you'll be chasing impostor syndrome and it's great you should feel it every 18 months you learned that failure is one of the great
00:00:45
gifts of standup comedy and to learn how to lose gracefully it's a good test of how much you want something how do we
00:00:50
know what we actually want I love what I do now but often question whether I should go be like a DJ D what I can
00:00:56
answer that question for you no you shouldn't I know everything do you think oh maybe we can make a few quid out of
00:01:02
this no as a guy that's touring the world 300 days a year what advice would you give me on how to be a better
00:01:07
Communicator speak at 92 beats a minute when you look at the great public speakers they all seem to be hitting that rhythm of 92 beats a minute anxiety
00:01:14
it's the flip side of creativity so I think the cure for managing my anxiety is hang on the Netflix special drops
00:01:22
today so I imagine I'm being canceled right now how have you come to deal with that so the next time I get canceled I've got a plan here's what I'm going to
00:01:27
do I'm going to say congratulations diio gang we've made some progress 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don't subscribe
00:01:38
which is down from 69% our goal is 50% so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted if you like this channel can you do me a quick favor and hit the Subscribe button it helps this channel more than you know
00:01:51
and the bigger the channel gets as you've seen the bigger the guest get thank you and enjoy this episode
00:01:57
[Music] Jimmy it's great to be back what have you been up to I've been you know I've
00:02:04
been around I've been working I very much enjoyed this last time and I'm kind of I was a bit nervous coming back
00:02:11
because it's a Big Show and I I really enjoy it I really enjoy listening so I I've given it quite a lot of thought I've kind of made loads of notes and uh you know here's what I'll kick off with
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I've been thinking a lot about gratitude as the mother of all virtues and I think
00:02:28
I'm right in saying this I think you would give me everything you own in 25 years time to be the age you are now and as healthy as you are right now and I
00:02:41
think it's a really interesting meditation to think about right if you had a time machine if you were 30 years in the future if you could be this healthy and feel this good and be this
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age you give everything materially that you own in 30 years time to be back here
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and just that just to take that end for a minute just to take a moment to think about wow this is amazing what does that
00:03:07
Inspire in terms of Behavioral change in the moment well I think it's that thing of like I try and I think gratitude is
00:03:12
such an important virtue um and it's people talk about gratitude practice and it does take some practice and it often takes like it's a it's like a way of reframing the way that you see the world
00:03:25
so I think that we suffer in the west a little bit from Life dysmorphia do you hear a lot about body dysmorphia gender
00:03:31
dysmorphia we've got life dysmorphia a lot of people think their life is terrible because there's kind of the the
00:03:38
honic treadmill you get used to how great your life is no one had a hot shower until 50 years ago so I Tred and
00:03:45
do this thing when you stand in a hot shower George Mack my friend pointed this out to me went well look when you stand in a hot shower just for a moment
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just go well no one that you admire from 100 years ago had this simple pleasure in life and when you look at the world
00:03:59
that we live in we we're like you're doing there been 100 billion people ever right we are in the top top percentile
00:04:08
in terms of the luck that we have had the the lives like the the the calorific intake that we just take for granted the fact that our children don't die uh you know in the first year the the modern
00:04:18
medicine and our lives and our the entertainment that we get we're living like kings and yet life has never been
00:04:26
objectively better and subjectively worse because the nature of humanity is our desires are memetic so we've got this thing where we we sort of you know how happy are you well it's it's your
00:04:39
quality of life minus Envy that's how happy you are and it's easy to look at everyone else and how they're doing and and not take pleasure in what you
00:04:52
have it's funny because there's a cost to a hot shower isn't there and that's exactly what you're describing there
00:04:57
because subjectively I think lot of people don't feel like they are very happy and I think objectively if you
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look at some of the stats around suicidality and depression and mental health it doesn't appear that people are any happier so even though we have sort
00:05:10
of materially improved Our Lives we have hot showers now there's a cost to the hot shower in the sense that um maybe
00:05:18
it's made life too easy maybe it's made life too comfortable maybe we're in a comfort crisis yeah I mean there's
00:05:25
there's a there's a lot to be said on that I mean it's very I suppose it's very tough love but you can't have an
00:05:30
easy life in a Great Character Show show me a trust fund kid that inherited a bunch of money and I'll show you someone
00:05:37
mentally tortured it's it's true right everyone's like your your struggle what where
00:05:44
you've come from in Plymouth uh you know in living in poverty to now having stuff
00:05:50
isn't fun getting stuff is fun right it's not the pursuit happiness it's the happiness of the pursuit right it's it's just it's that thing and it's not like you know that the self-help it's not the
00:06:00
journey it's the destination it's not either the journey or the destination it's who you become on the journey and
00:06:06
here's the terrible thing about life it's self- assignment like you know there's school
00:06:12
and college and then you get dropped into the the real world at some point and look and you go well you you have to
00:06:18
decide what you're going to do and you can take an easy path and it's it's ultimately less fun it's short money or
00:06:25
you take a hard path and you give yourself a challenge and it's great and I think you know a lot of the times it's
00:06:30
that thing of like it's hard to do that's a it's it's life is life is really really tough those are tough
00:06:37
things to hear and it's it's easy for us because we're sort of on that road but then you know the thing I love about this podcast is you're sort of trying to there's so much kind of wisdom in it so many stories that you're sort of you're
00:06:50
giving people this kind of road map for okay well make your life a little bit harder in the short term and and and get
00:06:58
somewhere I mean I I didn't really get what religion was until comparatively late in life like the idea that God is a
00:07:06
proxy for the future right so so so God represents the future so work hard now for a better life in heaven right so that's it's kind
00:07:16
of it's the same as all self-help like okay so so sacrifice the present for the future work is kind of the same it's a sacrifice of the present for something
00:07:26
better in the future that's like it's a it's it's an interesting thing to sort of think around isn't it that like what
00:07:32
are you g to do now so I've got this um Chris Williamson you know Chris from he's a really good friend of mine he's
00:07:37
lovely guy and we came up with this idea so me him and George Mack were chatting about what what should you do today that
00:07:46
you tomorrow would be happy you did so sort of 24 hours in the future how best to live because people sort of set like oh well I'm going to do something for 5 years you know so it's this huge goal
00:07:58
but you won't rise to your goal you fall to your systems right so that thing of like what could you do
00:08:04
tomorrow what could you do today rather that you'd be happy you did tomorrow whether it's the food you eat the
00:08:09
exercise you take the work you do what do you do oh right I went to the gym yesterday I feel great like a a little
00:08:15
bit of Doms or oh I wrote 10 jokes and tonight I'm on stage trying those jokes oh well I'm thanks me yesterday I you know I did something
00:08:25
that was good so you can kind of time's going to pass whatever you do and you can give yourself gifts in the future
00:08:31
you can be rich and you can have a six-pack and you can be successful and you can be in a happy long-term relationship with a beautiful family you can give yourself those those gifts but
00:08:42
that there's some tough times in the present to give yourself that gift in the future something I really wanted to
00:08:48
ask you about is you've climbed to the very peak of your profession like you really are generational Talent this guy
00:08:54
that's what it's true it's true you really you really have you think about where you started off at sort of 25
00:08:59
years old in your mid 20s when you decided to leave that I think advertising business and pursue comedy
00:09:05
like where you are now really is must be the Dre a dream you like never really imagined could come true you're at the very peak of your profession and I think at the peak of your profession I wonder
00:09:17
sometimes if you wonder more than other people who are still on their Journey up that mountain what the point in all of
00:09:23
this is well I think that's that's incredibly interesting okay so there's a couple of things to unpick there so you
00:09:29
never feel like you're at the top of your profession because you're a you're standing on the shoulders of giants in
00:09:34
whatever industry you're in so you might think oh he's doing he's doing very well uh you know he's got a Netflix special
00:09:39
and a new tour and all of the you know all of the things but then inside you're going well I'm as good as the next joke
00:09:44
I write so the the thing that I try and do is be quite stoic I'm trying to be I'm trying to do less better I'm trying
00:09:52
to just be a stand-up com the world ordered a standup comedian and I'm trying to honor that right that's what
00:09:57
people want right go out jokes tell jokes push the boundaries great that's your little role in the world do that so
00:10:05
the more I focus on that the the the better it gets more people come to the show it's that thing of like I suppose the whole of the world is built on incentives right so you you you put down
00:10:17
sugar you get ants you tell jokes you deliver on a show and people come and they enjoy it
00:10:23
and then they come back next time what'd you get out of that I mean the self-actualization I suppose the idea of
00:10:29
going well I do this thing that I I very much enjoy comedy because it's an immediate feedback loop it's a it's a
00:10:37
very lucky business to be in because I don't have to wait like I don't have to discuss with someone ah do you think
00:10:43
this joke's going to work or not what do you think do you think it's too offensive or do you think ah tell it
00:10:49
test it it's it's kind of it's the Silicon Valley the um you know uh the the Dual testing is is this better than this this or this I'm like an an ition like just is this this or this or this
00:11:01
or this this wording or this wording and the audience is a genius the audience tell me what works so it's it's kind of
00:11:08
yeah it's it's it's a joyful thing to kind of to write a new show and then to put something on the on the Shelf like
00:11:14
the new Netflix special Natural Born Killer now streaming on Netflix is is like it's it feels like I've given
00:11:21
people irrefutable proof I am who I say I am and that feels really good like that's what I do that's better than the last one and last time I was on the show
00:11:32
I talked about wanting to write longer bits longer form like I I've got a great fast ball but I haven't got a knuckle
00:11:38
ball and I wanted to try and write some different bits that maybe made some points and I went away and I did it and
00:11:44
for better for worse it's there and I I gave it a shot and I think it's a better more rounded comedy special than the
00:11:51
previous one and I and I don't hate the previous one it's got really good jokes in it it's really funny I like it and
00:11:57
then the new tour I think will be better again I think you can see you see progress and what are you chasing you're
00:12:03
not chasing the the thing it's your you're enjoying the process it's it's being so I don't think you get self-esteem from the six-pack you get at
00:12:14
the gym I think you get self-esteem from being the kind of person that goes to the gym every day and I don't think you
00:12:19
get anything from the from the show from having done the Netflix special but being the person that put that together
00:12:26
is the that's that's the enjoyable thing and you get you get kind of better at it you you know the light the weight
00:12:32
doesn't get lighter your back gets stronger I think about this with myself a lot I look at what I'm doing in business and stuff and with the podcast
00:12:38
and other things and I go there are moments where my brain will ask myself the question like what's the end goal here because I've got the things that I
00:12:46
materially need need to be happy I could retire and just go chill on a boat but for some reason I'm sort of torturing
00:12:52
myself in many respects but torturing yourself very hard what you're doing you're giving yourself a character
00:13:00
because you're giving yourself a challenge right we all need the challenge so it's like you know with any
00:13:05
kind of mythological story it's the hero's journey and you're on a journey to to to do something to become
00:13:11
something right and you what's your what are you doing here what's your role in the world but going and sitting on a
00:13:16
beach isn't anything like you there's a reason holidays are are two weeks it's so you have three days of going ah we
00:13:24
should get back like holiday should be 10 days but somehow we we' made it two weeks and that's great because it allows people sort of three days of going you know what I've got to get back to work I've got to do something I like that
00:13:36
thing of like the top of your profession well you'll always be looking ahead right at someone that's you know if it's
00:13:41
for you probably Joe Rogan you go well Joe's got the biggest podcast in the world and what are you number two and
00:13:47
you and so you're you've got something to aim at and even if you're number one then you're going to go yeah but radio
00:13:53
still bigger so huh like that thing if you'll be chasing something giving yourself maybe an artificial
00:13:59
um goal in the future but it's a it's a it's just a um something to point you in
00:14:07
the right direction is there a little bit of unhappiness sort of voluntary unhappiness involved in wanting to that
00:14:14
thing off in the future you think you know because if there's I sat with a psychologist a psychiatrist the other day who was on the podcast and he said
00:14:20
if you live your life continually wanting you're essentially deferring your happiness and replacing it with sort of discontent in the moment well
00:14:27
this is I mean listen even the worst people say great things chairman ma said uh you can't smell the roses from a galloping horse so when you're moving at that kind of speed you don't take any
00:14:39
time to enjoy life right so you have to just just enjoy the moment but you enjoy
00:14:44
these conversations you enjoy the thing that you do now the hard work is a lot of the stuff around it you know the
00:14:50
travel and the the admin or whatever but you have to love the whole job you can't just go well I want that bit because in
00:14:56
the same way that people are jealous of you there'll be other podcasters that are very jealous of what you've got but they're jealous of what you've got
00:15:01
they're not jealous of how you got it no comedians are jealous of how I got it no
00:15:07
one sits there and goes oh I wish I could sit for 10 hours a day and write jokes oh they think I'd want to play
00:15:12
that venue or I'd love to have that Netflix special but they don't sit there going well what pathology would you need
00:15:17
in your head to write that many on liners and to care that much about it who would you have to be to do that and
00:15:25
we're all chasing something right I think we're chasing impostor syndrome I think imposter syndrome's got a bad
00:15:30
reputation and it's great you should feel it every 18 months as you level up you should feel
00:15:37
like do I belong here right this show is much bigger than it was when I was last
00:15:42
on congratulations you why is it bigger well because you pushed yourself and you worked harder right and now sometimes
00:15:49
you feel like oh my God I'm interviewing this person great don't feel comfortable
00:15:54
lovely as soon as you start to feel comfortable you need to push yourself a little bit further there's a great story my friend told me this a very Nam droppy
00:16:00
story you mind good all right Brandon Flowers told me this story so he's filming a video with Lou Reed like 10
00:16:06
years ago they did a song with Lou Reed which is preall for the killers and they're filming this video and they're
00:16:11
backstage they're in the they're in the uh the The Green Room and Lou Reed's there he's got leather trousers on he's got a leather jacket and a vest he's got mirrored sunglasses he's Lou Reed and he looks in
00:16:24
the mirror and Brandon sort of sees him just like checking himself out and Lou re just goes I wish I was that
00:16:33
guy Lou Reed's got imposter syndrome and he's Lou Reed there's nothing to matter with it you know a guy that's been a
00:16:39
rock star and a legend for 40 years is still feeling that thing of like going I don't feel like I'm that guy great
00:16:45
that's how you should feel so if you haven't felt imposter syndrome in the last 12 18 months you think there's
00:16:51
something probably what push yourself a little bit hard I mean it depends it depends what you want to do you can have an easy life some people you know work
00:16:59
to live some people live to work it's it's there's different ways of doing things it's not necessarily you don't
00:17:04
necessarily need to push yourself in that way like you're listening to us and and you know there might be a
00:17:10
psychiatrist listening going well these guys are pathologically ambitious this isn't healthy they should just be you
00:17:16
know chilling out and maybe they have a good point I look at your work ethic and I
00:17:23
just feel like I've never seen anything like it for someone who is incredibly successful I look at your tour dates and
00:17:28
I'm like this guy spends how many dates a year on stage maybe 300 shows a year something like that 300 shows a year
00:17:35
well most people turn up to work every day don't they I mean you know it's also most people like
00:17:42
get get your average listener to the show and go okay do you want to swap lives you you have to work for two hours
00:17:47
a day but You' be telling jokes to people and it's joyful it's what what looks like work to other people and feels like play to you there you go
00:17:58
there's there say like as a really happy life that people go oh my God he worked so hard and I'm going you're joking
00:18:03
aren't you you are literally joking and then you go oh the tour dates like this last week I was in I know what South
00:18:09
Africa Paris Istanbul Budapest Vienna what a life what because really that's the other thing about life people don't want to live longer they want more memories and and really how do you get
00:18:21
more memories well it's it's doing novel interesting things so if you commute to
00:18:27
work every day the same commute for a year you don't have 300 memories of that commute you've got one memory right but if you do different things every day you go to different places you talk to
00:18:37
different people you you experience the what that's a fantastic that Variety in life gives you more memories more life
00:18:45
you pointed at your head a second ago and said we must be pathological in some way yeah do you think you are yeah yeah
00:18:52
I'm not sure I'm the I don't know I mean I'm not sure I'm not entirely sure if comedy isn't a uh some sort of low-level
00:18:58
Mental Health issue that you can turn into a career I it's you know it's like for most people it seems quite strange
00:19:03
to want to stand on stage and uh and tell jokes I think it's it sounds terrifying to a lot of people but I find
00:19:09
it very very fun Have you ever figured out why you are wide in such a way not really I mean I suppose that thing of it goes back to Childhood it goes back to um my mother was an incredibly funny
00:19:21
Larger than Life Irish woman I was very very close to her I believe they call it in meshed when you have like a very
00:19:26
close relationship with your mother um uh and she suffered with uh depression and I didn't know you don't know as a kid your house is just your house you think it's normal right so if your mom's in a dressing gown when you get home
00:19:38
from school and she hasn't got herself together you just think well that's what mom's are like so my whole childhood was
00:19:43
aimed at making her laugh especially when driving fun thing to do make your mom laugh grab the steering wheel try and you know have you had to unpack that to
00:19:55
stop that getting in the way whatever that driving is getting in the way of your adult life cuz I've thought about
00:20:01
that a lot myself I think the things that have driven me here aren't necessarily the same things that are
00:20:07
going to help me succeed in the next phase of life whether it's being a father like I know you you know you've you had a kid I think in
00:20:13
2019 um or whether it's being in a romantic relationship I've had to kind of really work hard to
00:20:18
unpack things so that I can succeed in a new season listen I'm not a therapist but here's what I would say I think
00:20:25
you're going to have to make a transition from looking at uh measurable metrics to immeasurable metrics I think
00:20:32
you've got an amazing resume you've got an incredible CV of stuff you've done and achievements and stuff you can point
00:20:38
at and and the the amount of views on the website and the money that you've made and the businesses You' started
00:20:44
great and I think the immeasurable stuff is going to become much more important so George Mack has this kind of theory on we trade in life the measurable for
00:20:54
the immeasurable so you trade work for I know time with parents can't really measure time with parents and it's kind of it's tough to lunch with your parents
00:21:05
as opposed to the job and the thing and the work and that I'm busy I'm busy I'm busy and you only notice it when it goes
00:21:10
to zero so mom dies and you go well I'll never see her again what wouldn't you give now for another meal another time another thing so you go trying to find that balance in life and I think
00:21:23
parenting and being a father is about that isn't it it's about that it's about trading the the measurable for the immeasurable Warren Farrell tells a great story do you know Warren
00:21:35
Farrell it's like the myth of male power I think a lot of his writing's been used by nefariously by people sort of that
00:21:41
are a bit anyway he's a very interesting guy and he's he's very uh authentic um and he told this story I heard him tell this story he said uh said this guy came to me and very successful man you know
00:21:54
head of head of a business that makes millions really doing very well and he said he was unhappy because he had
00:22:03
worked all the way through his son's childhood and he didn't he hadn't bonded with his son because he'd just been away at work and he went went to see Warren
00:22:15
farell and he's a you know psychiatrist or whatever and he said uh okay what are you going to do he said well I'm going to I'm going to give up my job for 5
00:22:23
years and I'm going to be at home with my kid get I'm [ __ ] it I'm not doing any
00:22:29
of that I'm going to be with my kid for 5 years just being that moment and he did it and he was very happy that he did it it was John
00:22:44
lenon and no matter how important you think your job is you're not John lenon you know I'm sure he could have done great things in those 5 years but you think oh my God I'm so glad he did
00:22:56
that I'm so glad cuz of what an incredible artist he was he'd given us so much and that he had
00:23:03
those years for himself and that's for him I mean I I imagine he's kid I imagine Shawn Lennon's very glad he did
00:23:09
that but he got that time and I imagine he didn't regret it and and his life was cut short tragically and you think it's even more
00:23:21
powerful when you consider that that he didn't put it off he didn't go well I'll do that I'll do I I'll get to I'll get
00:23:27
to a million subscribers and then I'll do that I'll sell a few more records and then one more tour and then I'll spend
00:23:32
time with the family he he did it isn't that beautiful there's a lot of emotion in
00:23:38
your face when you tell that story it's beautiful story isn't it I mean I could when you think about it you go that's
00:23:45
kind of that's life isn't it and the and mortality I think is something we don't think about enough right I love that the
00:23:53
Muslim uh uh phrase for death uh the certainty you know we're in this brief shaft of Light Between Two Oceans of Darkness everyone always thinks about
00:24:06
the tail end right and thinks about what happens after you die Mark Twain had this great quote you know we we um he
00:24:12
said uh he said I wasn't alive for billions of years before my birth and it didn't inconvenience me in the
00:24:21
least but this brief shaft of Lights kind of it's magnificent isn't it I think so I think it can be this idea of um you know depression
00:24:33
is essentially thinking about yourself too much you last time we spoke on the podcast you talked about I would say
00:24:39
yeah sorry that that feels to me maybe a little bit too harsh because I think people suffer with depression and that's
00:24:45
a it's a disease and it's incredibly serious and we think of suicide as being something that stands alone it's not it's a symptom of a disease called depression right so it's the it's the
00:24:57
permanent solution to attemp problem you don't want to feel this way anymore but
00:25:02
actually you don't want to feel nothing anymore uh you like to feel better so it's that thing of like I don't think we
00:25:09
talk about it enough but I think that thing of you know thinking about yourself all the time I think just leads
00:25:14
to a can lead to a Melancholy a sadness I think depression is maybe a slightly separate thing not to nickp but it feels
00:25:21
like it feels like that's a disease yeah and there's also a lot of sadness in the world MH and you're lucky if you're sad
00:25:28
because if you're if you're sad it's circumstantial and you can do something about it you know are you depressed
00:25:34
because you have serotonin imbalance in your head and it's a heritable trait or are you sad because your life hasn't
00:25:41
worked out the way you want it to work out well if that's the case the latter you're in luck because you can change
00:25:46
that it does feel like there's a bit of a crisis going on within young men at the moment and I think your new show on
00:25:51
Netflix shines a light on many of the difficulties that young men are facing I I was really excited to talk to about
00:25:57
this particular topic cuz I've been trying to arrive at a position myself on why so many young men appear to be lost
00:26:04
and suicidality has increased and there's you know these new masculine influences or masculine
00:26:13
influencers that are really rounding up this cohort of young men who who are we talking about and Tate Andrew Tates of
00:26:18
the world well Andrew T interesting isn't he because um who made the I think John meany made the observation Trump is
00:26:24
a poor person's idea of what a rich person looks like yeah got gold Taps and I think s of Andrew Tate is like a
00:26:31
14-year-old boy's idea of what masculinity might look like like it's really it's it's and and of course nature abor a vacuum and there's a real
00:26:41
vacuum for um Elders like we now we don't learn how to shave from our fathers it's a YouTube video and so you lose something in that in that bonding
00:26:52
so there's a big bit in the new show where I give a young guy an audience member a pretty tough time like we have
00:26:58
the talk and I give them advice on how to uh be with a woman and it's I'm not wrong about anything it's really funny and it's really rude but I'm not wrong about stuff it's like it's about consent
00:27:12
and it's it's I think it's really it's really good because it's I've sugared the pill of the message because people don't want to talk about it people go
00:27:18
it's obvious what consent is yeah not to 17-year-old boys or girls it's like actually what what does that look like
00:27:24
and how should that be so it's uh yeah it's a it's a really fun routine really fun routine to perform and to write what
00:27:30
is it to be a man these days cuz it's quite confusing in ter even the conversation around like chivalry and
00:27:35
understanding you know well people talk about toxic masculinity and easy fix be a gentleman be a
00:27:42
mench that's it this is done be a gentleman be a mench you know a gentleman is never rude by accident it's Christopher Hitchin line great I I don't know I mean my thing
00:27:54
about young men today if I was going to give young men advice it would be get the right drugs and the real thing
00:28:03
right in real life live in real life right so why young men are obsessed by video games right obsessed they're spending hours and hours and hours online playing video games why well
00:28:14
that's a proxy for career right video games you think about the levels of video games and what people do on video
00:28:19
games it's that's a proxy that's like a uh it's a it's a substitute for the career that they're not having and then
00:28:25
they spend a lot of time you know fapping to to Pornhub or uPorn or whatever and that's a proxy for sex and
00:28:36
my thing would be George Orwell wasn't right our power won't be taken away from us by some authoritarian master we're going to give it away for cheap dopamine
00:28:48
and the cheap dopamine of video games and online porn and living online is is is getting in the way of real life so it's risk right that's that's what we're not
00:29:00
allowing young people to do because we we're saying to young people you can't take risks in real life we're we're
00:29:06
helicopter parenting we're not giving them the freedom how much Freedom should you give a kid as much as they can cope
00:29:12
with right 14year olds used to be babysitters they now need babysitters that's not good right so you
00:29:19
should allow them more freedom in in the real world because otherwise the only place they get freedom is
00:29:26
online and no freedom in the real world you're not allowed to go to the park and hang out but you're allowed to do
00:29:31
whatever you want online well that's a that feels like a very bad social experiment that feels like a bad
00:29:38
idea yeah it feels like we've inverted um Ma you know masloff this P pyramid hierarchy of needs and you go well food and shelter and warmth and all
00:29:50
the we've got all the bottom stuff worked out in our society right we we kind of can't see it we're not grateful for that because we can't see the hot
00:29:57
shower the Hot Shot we can't see the third world and we can't see the people in the past having a tougher time than us so we take it for granted but we
00:30:03
worked out that stuff they hadn't worked that stuff out 200 years ago but they had the top of the pyramid sorted everyone knew who they were they had their identity and they knew what their
00:30:13
purpose was everyone knew who they were what they were about and they were connected to to the others in the in the group and now we're kind of free floating individuals we kind of worship
00:30:24
the individual as if as if we can survive as individuals I always think of that thing
00:30:30
of like there's no such thing as a baby there's a baby in a mother there's a baby and a father baby and an auntie but there's no such thing as a baby because a baby on its own isn't anything
00:30:41
it's it's dead it's you it needs taken care of we're all still babies we all need the connections you you yourself yeah sure there's there's a lot of yourself that's that's within you but a lot of it is out
00:30:55
in the world it's connected to other people and it kind of it mediates who you think you are and that's you know
00:31:01
that's that's slightly missing from society where you kind of live online and you're kind of a self-authored thing
00:31:07
you're just on on the computer on the screen and you're not connected and you're not taking risks taking risks is
00:31:13
really important is this in part due to the rise in atheism and agnosticism I think
00:31:18
we we both me and you lost our sort of religious Faith around the same age think sort of early mid mid mid2 I think it's a weird thing where you go you can lose your I I certainly don't believe in
00:31:30
the stories there's two types of fools right there's people that take religion literally and there's people that think
00:31:35
it has no value okay both both idiots for different reasons like it works as a thing religion I quite I miss it because the reason the ceremony Works isn't because God's pleased it's because the
00:31:48
people came together and so I think we look for things that that are um proxies for religion and sometimes that's could
00:31:56
football it could be Environ ISM you know because you go well I need something I need purpose in my life I
00:32:01
need to feel like I'm I'm adding value and what a great cause I'm going to save the planet it's a big thing to think
00:32:08
about it's got a religiosity to it but I don't think that's the you know I don't think that's necessarily the answer you
00:32:14
know some people do it with politics they think politics is going to is going to be Heaven they're going to they're going to come up with some perfect
00:32:20
system I think you're putting too much pressure on politics first time I've ever said this actually but when you
00:32:27
just said I I think Miss religion I think I miss religion it's nice wasn't it it's a lovely thought as well when
00:32:32
you lose someone that you love very much it's a lovely thought I mean Heaven is just it's a lovely thought and I think
00:32:38
in a way in our culture Fame and Fortune has replaced Heaven it's the land of milk and honey
00:32:46
and where you can feel like you're um uh everything's okay everything's taken care of um and it is good but it's it's not it's not heaven I
00:32:57
don't believe in an afterlife I believe in a next life so I don't think anything happens
00:33:03
after you die but I think you can have a next life a very different life so it's interesting you're at this point of your
00:33:09
your life when you're thinking about well we might start a family it's a whole other life it's a whole other
00:33:15
you'll hardly recognize yourself you and your partner will be saying what did we do what did we do all day now we're not
00:33:21
a Peppa Pig World or wherever you find yourselves it's really just struck me that I do kind of Miss religion but it
00:33:27
feels like when I lost my religion I put a backpack on a backpack full of weights on and I think that's what the
00:33:33
responsibility and individualism is I mean for me the the loss of religion was A Rush of Blood to the Head it was like
00:33:39
oh I I this is my life and I need to make good on this and I need to live it the tragedy is most people don't have that kind of they don't get to kind of follow their their their dream when you
00:33:52
were 28 years old your mother died who had a you know a profound influence on you for many reasons but also has very
00:33:57
much the inspiration or at least the singular biggest causal factor of your career when I read through your story
00:34:03
even more recently you've undergone quite a lot of grief even the loss of your dog I believe um which had a pretty
00:34:10
large impact on you I think grief is cumulative so every time you lose someone or something uh and and actually
00:34:17
losing a pet can be it's a weird thing because people lose pets and it's like I don't know the other people in the office can be about H okay oh well what
00:34:23
we doing for lunch it's like can be a really affecting thing because it's not just just everyone you've lost and you
00:34:29
think about mortality but you think about your own mortality and you think about you know you kind of think about
00:34:35
it takes you to a very melancholy place of like at some point you got to say goodbye and I guess you think about
00:34:41
those things of going what are the you know in life as we were talking about the the the great you can have great a
00:34:47
great resume great CV loads of stuff on it but what are people going to say at your eulogy that's the important thing that's the stuff that really matters
00:34:58
and it's a very different it's again it's the it's the it's a hidden metric of what people going to say at your your
00:35:05
funeral what what are people going to say when you when you pass uh I don't know I think grief's
00:35:11
it's a it's very interesting it's very it is that thing of it you know kind of comes in waves and you think about it
00:35:16
for a long time and then it and then it hits you how have you dealt with grief in your life I mean I I I think when my uh I
00:35:25
don't know I think I think I'm slightly guilty of you know suppressing it a little bit I think when uh I think when Shawn lock died I was very uh very upset by it and you just go to
00:35:39
work you just kind of go well I'll I'll put myself in this joyful place of laughter and maybe not have to think
00:35:45
about it as much but it's uh yeah it's you know they gone forever and there was something really amazing about when sha died because people shared so much online so you had
00:35:59
these clips of like I remember the day I remember being at home and and getting the news and laughing and crying kind of
00:36:07
real kind of um cognitive dissonance of like feeling really upset and then they played just all the funniest clips of
00:36:14
Sean like people just sending me clips clips clips and he was just so funny and that Joy is kind of there it's it's it's really lovely it's really like for all
00:36:26
of social media ills on that day my God it made a difference what did it make you realize about both sha and life when he
00:36:37
passed I I don't know whether there's any great Revelation in it I think it's that thing of just you know enjoy you
00:36:44
know enjoy your time enjoy the enjoy this because it's fleeting I mean all too fleeting for for Sean who's very young uh but it's you know I think that that thing of
00:37:02
you know family and and you know spending time with the people that you love and and doing what you love I think
00:37:07
prioritizing that it's if you want to meet someone high agency meet someone that's got six months to live I'd say
00:37:14
their tolerance for [ __ ] is is about as low as it gets I think living your life like that
00:37:20
is not a bad idea if really shows you what your priorities would be someone said you had six months to live well what would you
00:37:25
do that's how what you should be doing anyway yeah that's really what I'm what I'm getting at is there's something that facing our own mortality teaches us um
00:37:36
but unfortunately we have to we often learn that when we we haven't got a lot of time to implement it and sometimes
00:37:41
when we when someone close to us passes away we can vicariously learn that message about our immortality and what
00:37:48
really what our priority should be and really how we should be living our life and really What mattered the most and I imagine losing someone that was as close
00:37:55
to you as Sha was sends you some kind of message about priorities and life and gratitude and all these things we talked about yeah I think it's yeah I think gr
00:38:07
gratitude's a big part of it as well that idea of kind of going wow that was that was pretty
00:38:14
special you you were I might grab I might grab another coffee can I grab the rest of my coffee yeah yeah is that all
00:38:19
right am I allowed yeah he said breaking with format I might shuffle my notes as well I'm going to shuffle my notes
00:38:28
this is a business podcast or at least that's how it started and is it have You Have you listened back because I don't think it is I'll be honest with you it's
00:38:38
it's not this is but business is life you know what I mean and they're the same thing the communication mental
00:38:44
health striving progress people relationships it's all business at the end of the day it I mean you are re I
00:38:51
mean this I mean I know it's still cool diary the CEO but re I don't think you've talked about business on this for
00:38:58
like 3 years and even then it was like a passing so when you started your business how did that make you feel it's
00:39:05
this isn't you're an old hippie is what you are you love this is a great podcast but this is a storytelling podcast so
00:39:12
many of so many entrepreneurs are old hippies I think of Steve Jobs he was an Old Hippie yeah you know and it's
00:39:18
interesting I think that thing of like uh what does business teach people like we're talking about like young men and
00:39:23
and kind of there's a bit of a crisis going on out there uh with young men and and young women are not having an easy
00:39:28
time either but it's that thing of like the the suicide rate whatever um is horrific with young men and you go well
00:39:36
what's going on and it's agency I don't think we're giving young people enough agency so they don't feel like they have
00:39:41
they have control and really I think the thing of like serial entrepreneurs like
00:39:47
no one ever seems to hit on their first company but it's the second and third and fourth and but they just keep going
00:39:52
they go well I'm never going to work for anyone I'm going to do it myself that's kind of I don't think we're teaching enough of that uh it's it's a weird
00:39:58
thing CU like teaching someone to be a self-starter is kind of a contradiction in terms but it's it it kind of works
00:40:05
right there's I think we're teaching the wrong things I've Got a Theory I think I'm going to start teaching comedy and and okay so comedy is very
00:40:14
new it really you could trace its roots back to George Carlin and Richard PRI in the early 70s as like one guy on stage
00:40:21
in a big theater and he's selling tickets and people are just seeing him right you can trace it back to the dawn
00:40:26
of time but really the modern standup early '70s is a good good starting point right so it's a very new medium compared to music and film right it's very new so I sort of view George Carlin and uh
00:40:38
Richard PR they're John the Baptist right and and Jesus isn't here yet and it's this new evolving medium and unlike music we don't have a language yet so we
00:40:49
need a language of like okay what are the joke types and how could you how do you how do you write that down how do you configure it there's too much
00:40:55
magical thinking around stand-up comedy you know the idea that I I just I just came up with it it's just yeah I just
00:41:03
but actually learning how jokes work and uh systematizing and uh analyzing them I
00:41:08
think really helps so I've been working on a book with um uh Amanda Baker who helped me on my first book uh we've been
00:41:14
working on a thing together for the last couple of years trying to teach comedy and I think I think there's a real benefit to it because if you think about
00:41:20
music in schools right we'd all argue learning music's great right it's great idea teach kid the piano grade three
00:41:27
learn something about music and they'll appreciate music much more in life I think comedy is much more relevant right what does comedy teach you right it
00:41:32
teaches you you would you learn to kind of you find your self and you find your voice and you learn to communicate your
00:41:38
ideas and to order them and write them down and uh to communicate it's very valuable like the great tragedy of life is most people live and die and never
00:41:49
hear their own voice everybody wants to be a better speaker a better Communicator you know
00:41:55
it's funny cuz I sat with a guy called um Julian treasure who has I think Ted Talk on communication and speaking that
00:42:02
did I don't know 30 40 million views and he said I also did a Ted Talk on listening ick can no one listen to it
00:42:08
everyone listen to the talk about being a better speaker that's that's that's pretty
00:42:14
funny uh the uh yeah know I could imagine that you as a as a guy that's touring the world 300 days a year you
00:42:20
must have really been able to break down the science of communication and being a good speaker that's transferable to
00:42:26
business public speaking life sales Etc what would what advice would you give me on how to be a better speaker Communicator all right
00:42:37
okay 92 beats a minute what does that mean speak at 92 beats a minute that's there you go I mean there's kind of a science behind it and I've looked into it but most great
00:42:49
public speakers sort of speak in a rhythm but it doesn't matter how fast they're speaking but they're kind of hitting 92 beats a minute so I tend to
00:42:57
listen to a playlist of songs that are all 92 beats a minute before going on stage I know that sounds like Madness
00:43:03
you know and it's it may be it is but I think there's something about that Rhythm that just the audience that kind
00:43:10
of um the proximal speed of cognition that idea everyone kind of gets into that Rhythm and when you look at the
00:43:17
great public speakers they all seem to be hitting that that rhythm of 92 beats a minute do you think Trump's a good
00:43:22
public speaker yeah he's an excellent public speaker of course I don't know why people would have a problem
00:43:29
admitting that it's I mean he's kind of and he's freestyling it's like there's nothing planned this is this is
00:43:35
insane um yeah it's uh because he really leads into sort of exaggerated storytelling and emotion much more than facts and figures than most politicians
00:43:47
I mean it's a it's you know there's a theory that this is all Gwen Stefani's fault what do you mean okay so Donald
00:43:55
Trump was pres was hosting the Apprentice uh and Gwen Stefani was on uh America's Got Talent or one of the singing shows maybe it was fact anyone one of those big singing shows he found
00:44:07
out she was getting paid more than him and so he wanted to build his relevance right so he decided Well I know I'll run for president I'll become incredibly
00:44:18
relevant for like three months he's a contender he's whatever and then you drop out the race no problem at all so
00:44:24
he hires all those people in Plaza and he comes down the gold escalator and he does the speech and great okay nothing
00:44:32
he then goes and there's footage of this he then goes and does the first make America great again
00:44:38
rally and they've got foot job him walking up the steps and he sees like 10,000 people all
00:44:45
chanting and there's the realization oh oh this could be real it's kind of a yeah I think that's I think that's stani did it get
00:44:59
her I was the reason I was I was talking about business is because because this is don't have a CEO it's a podcast about
00:45:06
business is is because you taught me last time sort of indirectly about something that I've now developed and I call myself no man's land which is that moment when you make a decision to leave
00:45:17
the comfort and security of your identity your professional um you know Endeavor what whatever it is you were working in marketing and then like I always reference how objectively insane
00:45:28
it was for you to leave that and go and become a comedian and I've I've dubbed that no man's land that sort of six to
00:45:35
12 months of looking a bit stupid of losing your friends losing you know I refer to these five buckets in life you have your knowledge skills your network your resources and your reputation and
00:45:46
when you go into No Man's Land you fill the first two buckets of your Knowledge and Skills but you empty the last three you lose your network you lose your
00:45:52
resources often you lose your reputation whatever that was at the time but you fill these two buckets you made that for
00:45:58
whatever reason decision to leave a normal life and go and tell jokes for no money some people for some reason and I've seen consistently on this podcast like Darren Brown who was had a great
00:46:11
professional life ahead of him and decided to go do card tricks on tables in Bristol for 10 years I what is it
00:46:17
about these people that's making them I think they've had the realization right they've they've had the confucious moment every man has two lives and he
00:46:25
second begins when he realizes is he only has one and the good is the enemy of the
00:46:33
best cuz you know when people are on podcast like this that moment looks like bravery but I I wonder if to you and when you quit your sort of marketing job
00:46:44
no there's plenty of 4:00 in the morning ah what have I done this seems this seems crazy especially when you really
00:46:51
kind of when you break because when you leave as well you don't have like an hour of great stuff of like that you've
00:46:57
written you've got like 20 minutes of stuff that you kind of look back on and go it's kind of joke shaped there's
00:47:02
something there but really it's it's insane yeah but I think that's great I think failure is one of the great gifts of standup comedy you you sort of make friends with
00:47:14
failure as a standup because you write so many things that don't work you write so many jokes that you think oh this is
00:47:19
going to be great and then you tell it and the audience go no that isn't anything guess again and that idea of
00:47:25
going yeah failure failure is kind of frowned upon in our society we don't let kids fail we don't let kids lose at
00:47:31
sports we don't let you know that it it's it's really silly because you're sort of teaching them if if everyone's a
00:47:37
winner then you don't learn how to lose and to learn how to lose gracefully is that's a great skill to have isn't it and and you kind of you know it checks your ego and you you some not everything
00:47:52
in life is going to work out for you and it's okay so you you test it and it's a good test of how much you want something
00:47:58
you go and have you have a terrible gig and well I'm never doing that again or you have a terrible gig and go well you
00:48:03
know you you lose or you learn you develop your relationship with no I've someone said this to me the other day and it really stuck with me that you need you know I worked in Telly celles for a couple of years and it
00:48:15
really helped me develop my relationship with the answer no and so now in life I I think I have a much healthier
00:48:21
relationship with the word no because for me in call in it's that the law of averag is where in the call center all it meant was that I was one step closer to getting the yes so I'd get you know
00:48:32
you get loads of NOS in a row and you sit there and go [ __ ] know this next guy is going to buy these [ __ ] double glazing and I think at at 16 years old I
00:48:38
developed that relationship with no which me meant in my head that was getting me closer to a positive outcome lots of kids don't have that these these
00:48:44
days because we Shield them from no no is you know seen as a self-esteem hit for me it was building some kind of
00:48:50
muscle in me I don't but self-esteem on its own like confidence without confidence is madness it's Madness you you have to give the world irrefutable proof you are
00:49:03
who you say you are right so you you release a comedy special or whatever you go yeah that's me that's what I do the
00:49:09
new tour that's me that's what I do it's it's irrefutable evidence right I am who I say I am and I think that idea of
00:49:15
going taking away the the negatives you can't just I mean I mean you can but then I think we're I think it's very cruel I think we're being kind on the wrong time scale to people
00:49:27
if you're kind you want to be kind to your kids right I want to be kind to my kids what do my kids want well they want McDonald's and they want ice cream and
00:49:33
they want to watch TV and play video games well okay Downstream are some fat stupid
00:49:39
kids who wants fat stupid kids no one so you have to be kind to their potential to who they're going to be right and that involves you know broccoli and homework there boring going on a walk
00:49:54
doing some exercise okay but but you're being kind later and I think that it's very easy to see that when you're a parent uh and it's hard to see that with an 18-year-old that's
00:50:07
maybe struggling TI to your point about being kind to you in 24 hours I guess it's a similar thing right like like seeing the potential in in someone seeing the potential in yourself in a
00:50:19
child in anyone but in yourself that's kind of the thing of going well you could be incredible in 20 years time cuz
00:50:25
really that thing of like it's it's the um I suppose what's the the opposite of gratitude it's
00:50:34
resentment and who had the Great Line nature had the great line on resentment he said if you think someone's ruined
00:50:40
your life you're right it's you like that's a mic drop isn't it that's such a great line and you know gratitude is the cure for that there's a
00:50:53
there's a great definition of entitlement uh uh which is where you are now and where you want to be if you want to do something about it that's ambition where you are now where you
00:51:06
want to be if you think that's someone else's problem that's entitlement and I think if we're honest there's always a little bit of that going on like there's a lot of
00:51:17
people in my industry that would you know that their career isn't where they think it should be and ah I need to get
00:51:23
a new agent really you think that might be the problem remember there's a great story of uh I wasn't there but uh David tell
00:51:33
is sort of the comedians comedian is works out in New York late night uh he's I mean really one of the greats one of the one of the most influential voices in comedy and these guys backstage were
00:51:44
like moaning about their management and he's kind of overhearing this conversation it's going on for far
00:51:49
too long and he just he oh be funnier it's often very simple that stoic thing of going what's the thing you meant to be doing just do that I'm not sure I
00:52:04
approve of portfolio sort of uh working the idea of having lots of different things that you do because really you going to do comedy part-time
00:52:14
what you're going to do half comedy and half novel writing oh so you're going to
00:52:20
compete I'm doing it 100% of the time and you think you can compete 50% of the time all the best let's see how you do
00:52:28
you're never going to get to the top of the pyramid doing it 50% of the time right yeah and there'll probably be a lot of resentment as you say an
00:52:34
entitlement be you know be be a specialist it's one of the favorite parts of my previous conversation that I had with you where you you talk about the world doesn't need more people that are [ __ ] in physics and it really helped
00:52:45
me understand a lot of things I also then shortly after Met Richard Branson in New York and he's the most you know incredible delegator he's not trying to
00:52:52
get good at things that he's not good at he's built his whole business and life on realizing what he's [ __ ] at and just
00:52:58
handing that over to other people whereas so many people are fighting to polish something that they're not so good at yeah I think knowing who you are
00:53:05
is quite important for that isn't it it's like being honest about it like well I'm not good at that but I can do this it's hard to know who you are
00:53:11
though clouded you want to be yeah it's well yeah it's it's also that thing of uh it takes a bit of
00:53:18
time I'm not sure whether we're not kind of rushing people on that a little bit I'm i i s often think of like the
00:53:25
listeners to this show right so like certainly the younger ones of kind of going well do I need to know now who I
00:53:32
am and what I want to do exactly it's no you could you know try a few different things see what you like because I think
00:53:38
that thing when you get into the stream that you're meant to be in it just feels very easy it's like you're not you're
00:53:43
not you know swimming against the tide just feels like it's carrying you along I love what I do now but I often
00:53:51
question whether I should go be like a DJ or do musical theater or something what me do what I can answer that
00:53:57
question for you that's a bit of luck no no you [ __ ] shouldn't what what you think you maybe
00:54:04
should do musical theater who what are you having a panic attack what what are you talking about what would make you think that I I bought some DJ equipment and I spent
00:54:17
about a year learning and I thought I [ __ ] love doing this great you've got hobby you've got a hobby not
00:54:24
everything's a business I know it's di over CEO and everything you do you think oh maybe we can make a few quid out of
00:54:29
this no stop it what are you talking about you know who's you know who's being a DJ right now there's someone right now in their bedroom they've been there for 12 hours already today and
00:54:41
they're just loving it and they're putting everything into it they're putting the work you put into the
00:54:46
podcast into DJing let them have that it's nice to have stuff where you're in a flow state
00:54:52
in life and for some people that's work and for some people that's a hobby and and some some of us are very lucky and
00:54:58
we get to do it in a few different things so I play a little bit tennis I don't think I'm going to get
00:55:04
the wild card at Wimbledon this year there I've given up on that it's just a hobby and listen I mean you might be the
00:55:11
next Calvin Harris I might be steering you in the wrong direction you might be incredible but stop it stop it just do
00:55:17
this this is great this is enough it's is lovely you're talking to the most interesting people I mean
00:55:23
present company accepted but you you know you speak to all these different people from different worlds and it's
00:55:28
it's this is enough right how do you know if it isn't enough well I want to talk to you about quitting because there's going to be a cohort of people that listen to them I meet them I met a lot of them last night at a show I was doing and they are working in finance
00:55:40
and they'll tell me their job then they'll show me their hobby on their phone and their face lights up when they show me their I don't know their Pap and
00:55:47
mashe business or whatever it is on their phone what's the great line it's the uh you know if you if you want to find out what you should do in
00:55:55
life what do you think about all the time that's your [Music] god what working in the city with a
00:56:02
shirt and tie on at JP Morgan or something no but no one's thinking about that all the time you know so what do you what do you think about all the time
00:56:08
what are you what are you engaged in all the time like if it's if it's football if you're absolutely obsessed by football well something in that industry
00:56:14
is going to be the job for you because you're obsessed by that and that's what you think about all the time so the um
00:56:19
the idea of quitting quitting is quite interesting because oh the things that you won't do
00:56:26
like if you're going to have an interesting life you can't have all the other interesting lives you would have
00:56:33
had right so there's all the counterfactuals of the different sliding doors that you could have done like well
00:56:39
you know if you're going to be an Olympian you're going to have to give up an awful lot of stuff like you're not really going to have a childhood in the
00:56:45
traditional sense but you're going to be an Olympian great and if you if you're going to be an academic then you're
00:56:52
probably not going to be having to go to as many parties okay well that's you know there's there's no Solutions only
00:56:58
trade-offs you know Thomas S isn't it you have to make a lot of trade-offs because not only you know are you on the road 300 days a year but you have so much opportunity there's so many things
00:57:09
being offered to you to do movies why don't you try and be an actor or why don't you write five more books or why don't you do I don't know a comic
00:57:15
comical musical or whatever it might be why don't you become a DJ DJ and musical theater those are my two prime loves um
00:57:22
yeah I mean there's there's a few there's not as many as you would think I don't no one's banging down my door saying you want to be in a movie um and
00:57:29
I don't know if I'd be I don't know if I'd be great at that I don't know I mean listen I like getting out my comfort
00:57:34
zone and you know opportunities come along and sometimes you you get offed a TV show you go well give it a go why not
00:57:40
um but I think sticking to what you do that stoic thing has really paid dividends that really has paid off and I
00:57:48
think you have to listen to that you know and I see other Comics you know mentioning no names there's some great
00:57:53
standup Comics that were like absolutely amazing and they're doing five other things now and they've lost a yard of
00:57:59
pace and for me that feels crazy like you've because I'm looking at it going you've got the best job in the world why
00:58:07
are you allowing yourself to be distracted because ultimately it's going to be hard work you know ultimately I mean people can see it I suppose that the you know something costs more like a
00:58:20
a Ferrari cost a lot of money cuz a lot of work goes into it right there's a lot of work goes into that thing there a the
00:58:25
beautiful handmade made Louis Vuitton thing is it's going to be expensive because a lot of work went into it people understand that I sort of feel
00:58:31
the same about shows you're going to see a show you wow that really took some time every single line in that is
00:58:37
brilliant he's not wasting any time it's no there's no fat it's just it's a lot of
00:58:43
work when people look at you and they look at successful individuals they think oh they just must be innately motivated in some way that I'm not well
00:58:50
I do think that's it's slightly unfair that we think about luck in a very fixed way right so Barbie and Oppenheimer are great to talk about this right so people
00:59:02
see Margo Robbie and they go well she's just lucky right she was born she's that beautiful right she's so beautiful
00:59:08
people can't see how good an actress she is right people just can't because she's just like sort of this stunning thing
00:59:14
and and you look Oppenheimer right no one thinks a he so lucky born with an IQ of
00:59:20
170 a and born with a work ethic because a work ethic is heritable right so he was born incredibly clever and an incredible work ethic right and no one
00:59:32
thinks of him as being lucky but they think of her is being lucky it's weird thing right that's odd in our perception
00:59:40
of of luck and how much is how much is your factory settings you know this it's always I've talked to you about this before but it's always like some some [ __ ] uh if someone's very successful
00:59:52
you either go wow incredible Talent OR oh he works so hard no always both together always both together and or like you said earlier maybe a bit pathological in some way
01:00:06
which I don't know whether you'd put Talent bucket again you put the pathological the work ethic the the striving a lot of that is
01:00:13
heritable you know so what what are you going to do I think when you when you see luck in that way I think you become
01:00:20
much more forgiving of okay it's quite crazy this idea of luck i' think been thinking a lot about it lately I was reading some stories about um even the asteroid hitting Earth if it
01:00:32
had been a minute later than the dinosaurs would still be here and the story of Nagasaki and Hiroshima being
01:00:37
bombed because one guy went to Kyoto 20 years earlier and he really liked it so he told president truma not to bomb it
01:00:42
and if he hadn't been on holiday there with his wife then Kyoto would have been hit by the nuclear bomb and then they went over kakuru I think a city in Japan
01:00:50
and that had a cloud so they s [ __ ] it we'll go bomb Hiroshima and 100,000 people over there lost their lives and
01:00:55
every generation that would have come lost you you think these tiny little things that are going on in the world at all times kind of like this this idea of
01:01:01
the butterfly effect shaping our world and it can make you feel a little bit powerless in some way because if I'm the
01:01:06
you know if if someone's holiday can be the difference between me being alive or dead yeah it's you know it's very
01:01:13
difficult to to you know we we always you know think about the first order effects of what we do not the second and third order effects yeah so yeah I mean
01:01:22
that's a that's a lot to that's a lot to take in with this idea of luck in mind mind personal responsibility seems to
01:01:28
sit on the other side of the conversation of luck which is how much can I control where I'm going in my life
01:01:33
how much control do I have how much should I show up and [ __ ] fight for positive outcomes yeah well that's
01:01:40
agency you should you should strive to have the locus of control within yourself like so there's there's character and there's reputation and reputation is what the world thinks of
01:01:51
you and character is what you know about yourself and your self-esteem should be Lar based on your character and a little
01:01:58
bit based on reputation because reputation you could you could take a hit every now and then you get canceled once in a while well once every 18 months well hang on the the Netflix
01:02:09
special drops today so I imagine I'm being canceled right now somewhere how have you come to deal with that because
01:02:15
as a comedian you guys get it worse than anybody I don't know if we get it worse than anyone I think we're sort of the canary in the mind it's it's I don't
01:02:22
know I sort of view it as respectability is a prison and the gates are open and people are desperate to be
01:02:29
inside right I I'm not a respectable guy I tell very edgy out there jokes and jokes are like magnets they attract some people I've got a big following I've got a lot of people that watch my shows and
01:02:40
and they really enjoy it and light magnets they the jokes attract people and they repel people some people are repelled by my jokes and they think they're terrible I'm not for everyone I
01:02:50
think you have to accept that and you know it's it's when it comes out on Netflix when it drops DRS that's when it
01:02:57
kind of the pathogen escapes the lab because people that didn't pay to see this are suddenly exposed to it someone
01:03:03
puts a clip somewhere and goes this ban this filth okay Banning stuff it's like I sort of
01:03:09
view Council culture as the new and this isn't saying criticism isn't valid you can criticize ideas but you cancel
01:03:14
people and I think the cancel culture thing I think it's the new book burning it's no different the people that burnt
01:03:20
The Beatles records in the 60s how do they feel now you feel like a dummy I bet they feel like dummies it's like and and obviously the basket of things that are acceptable and unacceptable change
01:03:32
and EB and flow through time but really it's it's uh you know I'm I'm a creature
01:03:37
of my time I'm going to I'm going to tell these jokes and if they get big laughs then then great have you always
01:03:43
had this perspective or is this something that's developed like a muscle over time no I think I think there's um
01:03:48
I think that adversity I've been canceled quite a few times and there's I try and see the positives in life right
01:03:54
so adversity is a filter and you find out who your friends are and who stands by you and who's you know who's ride or
01:04:02
die great turns out got loads of great friends and a couple of people fell by the wayside and great I don't have to
01:04:10
waste any time on them because everyone loves you when you're thrown a party but in the tough times
01:04:16
you're a bit more difficult to love and if people stand by you then then they're friends that's that's that's what it is
01:04:23
you friendship is such an important thing it's something that we don't really think about we think about a lot about our partners in life and our
01:04:29
children and that side of family friendship for me is such an important thing it's such a huge part of my life
01:04:35
and really when you think about it why why do why is comedy having this moment well because comedian it's a little bit
01:04:41
like a friendship right there's there's a there's no filter and really your best friend is the person you have the least filter
01:04:47
with your deepest darkest you share you're open and a colleague you quite a lot of filter and someone you meet the bus stop tons of filter right Comics kind there's
01:04:58
no there's no filter you see Chappelle on stage he's it's him great you see Chris Rock On Stage that's him it's like you feel connected
01:05:10
lovely there's really something in that idea of as you were saying there that there's so little authenticity and vulnerability and openness in the world that when we encounter it we feel so
01:05:22
connected to it because it caters to the demand that we have that's not being met
01:05:27
with Supply there's so much supply of like filter girl on holiday in Hawaii drinking cocktail but it but in our sort
01:05:34
of private and our secret lives there's very little um reflection of what we think about in our private and secret
01:05:40
lives in the world so when we hear someone talking about their depression or their mental health we go oh my God that you know can resonate or is this
01:05:47
not why the podcast is so big why comedy so big at the moment because the the gap between public and private discourse has
01:05:53
never been wider and we both were we're both living in that space we you go yeah have a have a real conversation with
01:05:59
someone great and the you know the the cancelling thing is is great but really what happens I mean you could you can recalibrate it and just call it free publicity like people are talking about
01:06:10
you well great okay there's this thing called the Eraser test which one of my guests talked to me about before mord out where
01:06:16
he said if you could go back and he asked I think he asked or there was a study done where they asked people if they could go back in time and erase
01:06:22
their most difficult moment would you press the button and erase it and like these are like really traumatic events
01:06:27
about 95% of people said they wouldn't when you think about your most traumatic moments of sort of being canceled or
01:06:32
something like that the best best advice I got um actually the last time I got canceled I found a friend of mine who's
01:06:37
been cancelled and he said you've only got you've only got to answer one question who's Jimmy car uh any went no who's Jimmy KH I well
01:06:52
I'm edgy stand-up comedian okay fine then you haven't got a problem it's great and then another
01:07:05
friend of mine just went well you need to just rightsize this and I'm what what's you've got to rightsize it she
01:07:12
said what's happened here you told a joke and some people didn't like it yeah that's what happened I didn't didn't seem like that
01:07:25
a deal when you put it like that and yet in the moment sometimes it feels you know
01:07:31
catastrophic but those hard times you know you wouldn't erased the hard times because again I would say and it's a
01:07:37
it's a you can't have an easy life in a great character and what they're saying thereby not erasing that moment is I'll
01:07:42
keep my character thanks anxiety we talked about this last time anxiety is it's a very interesting
01:07:50
thing I mean my kind of original thought on anxiety was the it's the flip side of Crea ity so you have a mind that is
01:07:57
woring and that's given me every gift I've ever received right the ability to write jokes and to to be funny or
01:08:02
whatever is from that I can't turn it off mind and sometimes at 4 in the morning when you got nothing to do that
01:08:08
mind is still woring so you get involved in counterfactuals you start to think of all the other things that could have
01:08:14
happened that haven't happened in life and you know people are not worried about falling off a cliff they're
01:08:20
worried about jumping it's the madness within all of us of like well what what could happen and the worst case scenario
01:08:27
and these terrible things and you allow that to to get ahead of you I think the cure for it for me at the moment how I'm
01:08:33
managing my anxiety is giving myself more to do because I think anxiety you're trying
01:08:38
to solve a problem in the future now and you can't because there's no problem in
01:08:44
the now the problem is in in the future so you you you're kind of ahead there trying to trying to figure out something because you there's a demand
01:08:56
for um for problem solving in the moment and you don't have a problem fact think of like people don't get depressed when
01:09:02
they go to the gym right if you're in the gym you can't be anxious while you're working out because you have an
01:09:07
immediate problem I got lift this damn thing off my chest you've got an immediate thing to deal with you're in that moment so it's hard to be anxious
01:09:14
because you got something to do right now so give yourself something to do right now if you're suffering with
01:09:20
anxiety and don't let your mind kind of drift into the future kind I suppose it's quite sort of um
01:09:26
Buddhist in a way is your anxiety triggered by anything or is it just kind of a noise
01:09:33
in the background I I don't think it is I think you often I think I I think there's an illusion that when you feel
01:09:39
anxiety it's about this thing I think actually you've just got a a level of anxiety and you will you know so if I've
01:09:47
got nothing to worry about career-wise or show wise or I'm not currently being canceled you might worry about the
01:09:54
environment or you worry about your kids or you worry about you know you'll worry about something else so I think you just
01:10:00
it just it attaches onto whatever's front of mind and you logically go oh it's anxiety about this it isn't it's
01:10:05
just anxiety do you think people know who you are truly you know I I met with a CIA
01:10:12
agent a couple of weeks ago and he said we have three lives we have our our secret life we have our private life and then we have our public life public life
01:10:18
is you know the guy in the suit on camera your private life might be what your wife knows but then maybe your secret life is who you are when there's
01:10:25
like absolutely nobody there in your mind and in your own space do you think people know who you are I think so I
01:10:32
think actually weirdly um this podcast is quite important in that you know going on this going on Joe Rogan going
01:10:38
on Modern wisdom and talking as myself is very exposing uh and writing the book before and after which is kind of a um autobiography but also a bit self-helpy-ness
01:10:55
if we knew each other if we were having lunch you know for the listeners it's like this is yeah it's kind of what I'm like and then I've got an ability to be
01:11:01
funny on stage which is another side of me so I think that's like it's not it's not inauthentic what I do on stage it's
01:11:07
just like that's who I am in front of 3,000 people that have all paid £30 to be entertained here we go what's the side
01:11:14
of view that your wife might know but we don't well this this this is yeah you know you you're slightly more um I think on this it's it's very much you take down the
01:11:26
uh it's not like doing a TV show to publicize something so if you go on you know gr you're very much like okay well I've got three anecdotes and I'll get them out and I'll try and get four laughs and then I'll try and snipe her
01:11:37
in on the other guests and be funny and it's a it's very performative whereas this is performative but in a slightly different way where you're kind of going well this is kind of what I think about the world and this is this is what it's
01:11:48
like inside my head and it's quite I don't know I suppose when you step back from it it's kind of okay well a lot of
01:11:55
self-help a lot of uh a lot of uh I guess therapy a you that's that's what I'm like since we spoke last time is there anything you thought then
01:12:09
that you no longer believe I'm interested I'm asking that question because my favorite question what was the last thing you changed your mind
01:12:15
about um I think I've changed my mind about environmentalism a little bit I think I'm I absolutely acknowledge the problem and I think the solution is just
01:12:25
there I think it's I think it's splitting the atom I think we should all be I think nuclear is kind of the is the
01:12:31
future that's what we should be investing in that's we've got an issue that we have a system that is full of
01:12:38
politicians and we we haven't got Statesman we need longer terms longer terms we need longer terms because we need people to make decisions
01:12:49
like everything's about um about rewards right so what do we reward it's on a 5 year cycle so no one's ever going to invest in nuclear because it's going to take 20 years to pay off but they should
01:13:01
be rewarded for that somehow we need to find a way to reward politicians for what they did 20 years ago because if we do that it's there there's a better future right and I I don't know if
01:13:14
Britain doing it makes any difference like people often say well if Britain does it it doesn't make any difference
01:13:20
because well China's not going to do it or India's not going to do it but you go well actually if we did it if we did something something radical and went all
01:13:28
nuclear there been incredible examples to set to the rest of the world here's what I do here's my you want to hear my
01:13:34
pitch all right here's my political pitch right nuclear submarines have been testing this for 50 years they're
01:13:39
perfectly safe right people going to live in a nuclear sub next to the reactor they're fine right so we build
01:13:45
one of those there's no not in my backyard we put it in everyone's backyard there's a nuclear reactor like a submarine in every city bury it have a
01:13:52
small power unit in every city City and town in Britain okay and then it's quite
01:13:58
expensive so you pay your fuel Bill and in 20 years time we don't worry about cop 23 we we burn all the fossil fuels
01:14:04
we want for 20 years and then in one day we go totally green right no more fossil fuels well a little bit for fertilizers
01:14:10
and stuff but no more essentially and then fuel over the next 10 years uh Power becomes
01:14:17
free so we say to businesses around the world you want to set up a business in Britain it's quite expensive to employ
01:14:22
people but Energy's free you think we live in a world where energy will be of value in 20 years
01:14:28
time is it going to be the thing yes so you say to your Amazon and your Googles do you want to set up the place here yeah great if I rule the world that's what I would do Trump's probably going to come
01:14:40
back into Power isn't he by the looks of things Biden's not doesn't seem to be very compelling to people according to some of the polls I mean a week is a
01:14:46
long time in politics who knows who knows what will happen I think America will be fine regardless America is um
01:14:54
Geographic rically economically uh it's a net exporter of fuel and of food it's got incredible Neighbors in Canada and Mexico it is it's going to have the most
01:15:06
incredible 20 years regardless of who gets in they're going to double their industrial base in the next 20 years
01:15:13
because everything that was globalized is becoming more insula uh which isn't necessarily good for the world but very
01:15:19
good for America America can afford to have a terrible political system because it is so blessed
01:15:25
they're going to own much of the AI race as well all the big AI companies seem to be based in America and that feel feels like that's going to really I'm not
01:15:32
worried about Ai No AI is a covers band it's it's artificial intelligence it's not artificial Consciousness right so if you tell it to write a joke it can spit back stuff that you've already written
01:15:43
and reorder it slightly but yeah don't worry about it but if you imagine the Beatles aren't worried about the bootleg
01:15:49
Beatles but if you imagine at sort of even a 20% rate of improvement every year it's it's only going to take and
01:15:56
you know that compounds it's only going to take us five or 10 years before there's a [ __ ] AI that can crack a
01:16:01
joke really really [ __ ] well great and and an original joke I don't know whether it's going to
01:16:07
be original I think there is something about I mean uh you know I don't know genius is an over overused term right so
01:16:14
there's there's uh there's two types of Genius right there's there's um there's innate actual genius there's you know bark or bethoven or whatever you know
01:16:24
genius genius and then there's um hyper accelerated rationality and it's kind of what you
01:16:31
know people talk about comic genius and they go that's what they're talking about hyper accelerated rationality and I think AI is a long way from either of
01:16:39
them like of coming up generating something that's genuinely original no it's a covers band it can it
01:16:47
it can it can go well that's the genre and I can do something that's a bit similar but there's something about human creativity that I don't think it's
01:16:54
getting close to and maybe I'm being naive but I think it'll be an incredible thing for the
01:17:00
world because I think new jobs will come along this wasn't a job 10 years ago right being a podcaster you tell someone I'm going to do I'm going to do sort of a long radio show but people but it's an
01:17:13
individual you'd have to explain it you know it things change and it's only when
01:17:19
you sort of look back you go oh wow that's interesting the biggest TV channel in the world is YouTube
01:17:25
and no one noticed the BBC were battling with ITV about who's going to get the higher ratings on a Saturday night and
01:17:32
YouTube stole their lunch because they weren't paying attention is that not AI well it's the
01:17:39
world it's the world progresses and things move on and it's always been fine I think people worrying about AI it really strikes me it's the people going well these we've got to smash up these
01:17:49
these cotton making machines because this is this is this can't happen there'll be no new jobs they'll just be
01:17:55
different jobs I read a book called The innovators dilemma and it really changed my mind on a few things they go back
01:18:00
through history and they look at all of the big steps forward in Innovation and they basically categorize two types of
01:18:06
innovation I'll call it the upward opportunity and the downward opportunity so if you're selling horses back in the
01:18:12
1880s the upward opportunity is the thing that all your customers are asking for it is the thing that you know how to
01:18:17
do it is the thing that you have your supply chain setup to deliver on which is faster and better horses you know you can imagine the meeting that you're the
01:18:24
CEO of horse company I come in I go listen boss got an idea they go what is it I go faster horses you go people
01:18:29
asking for it I go yeah do we know how to do it yeah um do we have a customer B yeah let's do that then then another guy
01:18:35
comes in and says Jimmy I've got an idea um cars are they better no you have to walk in front of it with a red red flag
01:18:41
and it goes 10 miles an hour do we know how to do it no is anyone asking for it no one none of our customers have asked
01:18:47
for a horse yeah that is the downward opportunity and throughout history the incumbents always ignore the downward
01:18:53
opportunity because their incentives as you said their incentives are set up to pursue what we call the sustaining
01:18:59
Innovation the obvious thing in front of them become a better comedian or become a better podcaster get another camera
01:19:05
the downward opportunity I asked myself what is the downward opportunity in podcasting L you should ask uh you should ask comedians comedians got an
01:19:12
interesting way of thinking I think we're very similar to detectives because we think backwards
01:19:18
most people think about what's next right which is what you're talking about there is what's next what's the next thing what's the next thing and we go
01:19:23
well this is the state of affairs how did this happen it's the same as it's like being Sherlock Holmes you go how
01:19:28
the how the hell did that you kind of you're reverse engineering a lot of the time it's very interesting that this is
01:19:34
this may yet be a business podcast I think I I honestly think with the right amount of work if you really put yourself into this I genuinely think you can occasionally talk about business I tried to I try and weave it
01:19:48
in where I can yeah but that's interesting that the the podcast thing of going no one saw podcast coming
01:19:54
nobody like this and yet what's missing from our lives right what's what's missing what's the nature of BS of
01:20:00
vacuum well people aren't having conversations people are when you look around the world all those people that
01:20:05
live to 100 all of those zones and people go oh yeah they eat loads of olive oil and fish maybe that's the answer no it isn't they eat with other
01:20:12
people they have a conversation they're part of a community that's the difference they've got something to live
01:20:18
for the olive oil isn't making any [ __ ] difference the connection to other human beings is what are you doing
01:20:25
here you're connecting to people you're having a conversation so people are eavesdropping on a conversation but in
01:20:30
their heads they're having a conversation and they're the stuff we're talking about they're relating to their lives great nobody was asking for this
01:20:38
though nobody was saying do you know what I want three hours of Jimmy Carr talking about life no one was like demanding that in the like B someone you
01:20:45
know someone roll rolling their eyes as they listen to this yeah and I'm turning off now but in that industry they
01:20:51
probably thought people want bigger TVs and thinner TVs that's what they want they want to watch the BBC on a thinner
01:20:56
bigger television so we're going to deliver it to them whereas the the down opportunity was in fact they wanted
01:21:02
connection they wanted it to be longer form they didn't want loads of ads every six seconds inside of it is this not the
01:21:08
great sort of if you're listening to this and you're thinking right what am I going to do it's like it's not like
01:21:14
someone has spotted the Gap in the market you could be the person you know and it's it's that thing of like do what
01:21:19
you do authentically um I I always think like Joe Rogan's a really interesting example of that of someone that's
01:21:25
entirely authentic what you talk about comedy and MMA and life and slightly kind of you know philosophy stuff that he's interested he's exactly the same guy he
01:21:38
was 20 years in The Comedy Store 20 years ago in The Comedy Store back backstage chatting he's exactly that guy
01:21:45
totally authentic and people just yeah great I listen to that all day you're exactly who you are I mean I love the idea that you think there's still a bit of you that thinks it's a business podcast it's not it's not you re you
01:21:59
have a thing where you love stories and you love chatting to people and you love learning and that's what it is this is
01:22:05
just it's the this should be called the education of Steven bartler well I the reason I think this is a business
01:22:11
podcast is because of what I said I think business is mental like this is called The Diary of a CEO right what
01:22:17
would you find in the Diary of a CEO you wouldn't find [ __ ] forecasts and pnls would you you'd find problems with his
01:22:22
wife and you'd find that he's having anx xiety attacks and you'd find that he's doesn't know what the [ __ ] he's doing so
01:22:28
the whole point of this was to go into the Diary of a CEO the things you that's not business that's the rest of his life
01:22:36
this is about life I mean I I love it I absolutely love it I'm not breaking your balls but it's like it's it's uh it's
01:22:41
it's great the way that it's kind of developed I think yeah it's been led by as you say curiosity I get people all
01:22:47
the time will say Steve we want the [ __ ] CEOs back we want to listen to the business people or whatever and I
01:22:53
just go you know I can't do that for a decade what I can do for a decade is follow my curiosity like I could do that
01:22:58
for the next 30 40 years and at some point I'm going to care about a zmek and I cared about psychedelics and so that's
01:23:05
what I'm going to talk about and if you don't like it then there are three other million other options yeah I think that
01:23:11
thing about that's going with your gut is going to be the way to go because if you like the show and if you're having
01:23:17
interest in conversations I think the listener will will go with that and if you try and give them what they wanted I
01:23:24
think it's the it's exactly that thing of going we need Better Faster Horses not a car and you're going well you need
01:23:29
a car cuz whatever this is in 10 years time it's going to be different right it's going be it'll be something I'll
01:23:34
dad and I'll be thinking about a different set of problems and I'll be speaking to parental psychologists about what F do with my kids and stuff yeah um
01:23:42
but Rogan was the blue I have to say it and I think I've dm'd him it I don't think he replied but I just said to him one day that the blueprint he said about
01:23:49
authenticity and following whatever it is you're interested in has helped me so much because is there's more pressure to
01:23:56
change when there's more people watching and they can I've seen petitions and I've seen little movements on LinkedIn
01:24:03
trying to get me to have more of these kind of people on the single biggest request I have on this podcast is to
01:24:08
quote interview normal people that are at the start of their Journey that's the quote that's what they say to me um and
01:24:16
I go well if you'd interviewed Stephen at 18 yeah not a lot to talk about um you
01:24:23
know so it really be them interviewing me maybe that tends to what happens who would be the student in that situation
01:24:29
um but it's that's the most popular request I get is to go and interview quote unquote normal
01:24:36
people so yeah ignoring that I mean as you must have been able had to ignore the external pressure of changing or
01:24:43
telling a certain type of joke or being a certain type of no I think I think I think the audience though for me because
01:24:48
in that immediate feedback loop they do tell me what they find funny and that kind of leads you down the road of going
01:24:54
that's that's interesting people want to hear this I think the reason people are drawn to my comedy is partly because
01:25:00
there's not a lot of censorship in our society there's quite a lot of self censorship so people aren't speaking
01:25:07
freely in the office or even at home they're not saying what they really think if you notice this thing opinion
01:25:13
polls don't seem as accurate as they once were and that's because people don't feel like they don't vote in the
01:25:19
same way as they as they as they express themselves in the world so they come and see me live and there's no filter and this guy's saying whatever he wants this guy doesn't seem to give a
01:25:30
[ __ ] very cathartic if you're spending your days going well I know what the right thing
01:25:36
to say is so I'll say the right thing you know if you want to see who has power in a society who can't you
01:25:41
criticize and making jokes and making light of all of that stuff is is powerful because it it uh it's about
01:25:49
free speech and it's about um the Overton window you know that Overton window of what is and what isn't
01:25:55
acceptable to speak about you know so there's an no window in politics of what what is and what isn't acceptable policy
01:26:02
and then there's an overturn window of what is and what isn't acceptable to talk about in polite society and I think
01:26:07
comedy has a really valuable role in moving that overturn window in what what people can discuss what people can talk
01:26:13
about I'm always very interested in like occasionally it happens where you'll overhear the audience leaving a comedy
01:26:19
show and have such great conversations it's really interesting how it like just Taps into they just
01:26:25
feel a bit Freer and looser because they've listened to someone on stage being very loose and they're not
01:26:32
buttoned down they're not trying to self-censor or say the right thing self- expression and expression
01:26:37
generally has just been on such a journey like you know this whole idea of wokeism and what you can and can't say
01:26:43
it's I mean it really accelerated in the last 10 years to the point that it's it's quite you know it's quite if I look
01:26:49
back at comedy videos from 20 years ago they really seem to just be able to say whatever the [ __ ] they wanted to say and
01:26:55
then we went through this era of like censorship and cancellation and there's no time in human history where the good
01:27:02
guys have censored stuff it's never happened so wherever that's coming from whether it's the right you know the marry White House ban this filth which used to be the case or
01:27:14
the left the idea that the there's um you know a hate speech or or the idea that something could be words can be violence um which is you know what people say when they've never
01:27:26
experienced real violence I guess um the there's such demand for violence we had to we had to co-opt words into it but
01:27:33
the idea of going this you're trying to censor stuff is is a bad idea free speech is a very good idea because those
01:27:39
thoughts don't go away if people don't express themselves they just get they get suppressed and and actually just
01:27:45
speaking freely about stuff and talking about it is is very very valuable when you're trying to build something the
01:27:51
problem that we all face is we need to talent and skills that we don't have ourselves and we can waste so much time
01:27:59
trying to learn a new skill when really what we should be doing is using a platform like fiverr.com where you have
01:28:06
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01:28:18
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01:28:24
project was by hiring full-time staff and bringing them into the office fiver.com changes that and if you're in
01:28:31
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01:28:39
and here's the great thing if it doesn't go well Fiverr offer a pretty amazing money back guarantee so what are you
01:28:46
waiting for if you were a podcaster would you have anyone on the podcast would there
01:28:51
be any limits you would set that's something I think about a lot where are my limits because I get a lot of messages saying would you have this person on would you speak to Trump would
01:28:58
you speak to Vladimir Putin would you speak to you know yeah I mean I think I think you're I think you have to speak
01:29:04
to everyone I think the idea of going that there's there's people that are beyond the pale people have got like
01:29:10
there's people with bad ideas right I don't know if there's that many bad people but there's bad incentives and people that follow them and talking to
01:29:17
everyone seems incredibly valuable to me and the idea that you go yeah that's how life moves forward you know there's you
01:29:23
know even you want to be a Marxist it's a dialectic of going well this person I don't agree with and you have the
01:29:28
conversation and with an open mind and an open heart and maybe you change their mind and how do you move the
01:29:34
conversation forward I mean the great mystery for me in politics is the idea that people talk about um Hypocrites in
01:29:40
politics changing their mind about things of course he changed his mind the facts have changed that the world's changed you move on Obama ran on an anti-gay marriage
01:29:53
ticket but the world moves on and things progress and you know I'm I'm you know a
01:30:00
progressive but I think the idea of not listening to people is poison you know you think about why Hillary lost the election right it was that deplorables
01:30:11
thing remember when she talked about the deplorables and you can't talk to those people and it was like no those are
01:30:18
those are just working class people and they've got they've got worries and you need to talk to them about those worries
01:30:25
you can't just write them all off and go well they're despicable people you know that Urban Elite kind of thing you've
01:30:31
got to bring them in have the conversation you'll get someone with it you you know you have to listen to that you have to listen to all the different sides of the argument otherwise we're entrenched we're just in these little
01:30:43
you know and it's it's that thing of like it becomes uh identity you know which party that you follow crazy people don't like to follow people that they disagree with online in particular
01:30:54
because that's creating cognitive dissonance isn't it it's a constant confrontation of a set of ideas that
01:31:00
threaten or challenge you in some way so we'd rather just create this little Echo chamber of individuals that will confirm
01:31:06
my set my set of existing beliefs and that's what you know one of the things I I made the decision to do about two
01:31:11
three years ago was just to follow everyone that I am viscerally sort of repulsed by should I say yeah and if you
01:31:18
had them on the show if you had people on the show that you go I don't really agree with what they say but yes yeah it's I I feel like great to be back
01:31:27
yeah the uh that's interesting I think that's really I think that's really valuable I think that's a more interesting conversation as well because
01:31:33
if you're just going to nod along with someone and go well it's talking sense that's great it's like you know and it I
01:31:40
think to have those kind of difficult conversations is really it's a valuable thing one thing you said which surprised
01:31:45
me because it didn't come at all up at all in our previous conversation at all and even in my prior research was you said that you feel like you have a lowlevel eating disorder yeah I think I'm very uh very
01:31:58
conscious of my uh weight and my appearance and I think that's maybe uh Eating Disorders are very they're very very serious things and I'm not um I'm not really in that category
01:32:11
but I'm very aware of it like as a as a man as well I was chatting to um Chris Williamson on about this on uh modern
01:32:18
wisdom I think I think he was like quoting the stat of saying men's uh body morphia overtakes women's I think in the next year in terms of kind of young men
01:32:29
looking at Instagram wanting to look a certain way and presenting themselves a certain way I think there there is kind of an issue around it I think that weird
01:32:35
thing about like I've had a bit of work done you know and had my teeth done and my hair done and I think there is kind
01:32:42
of a there's something about being on screen all the time that you get very conscious of kind of uh and maybe it's
01:32:49
slightly a control thing have you always had that um or is it developed I think it's kind I think it's slightly
01:32:54
developed through sort of you know I think if I wasn't on TV or on Netflix or whatever I think you probably wouldn't
01:33:00
be as aware of how you how you present yourself um so it's it's slightly odd like thing slightly odd relationship with I mean I I have kind of a theory
01:33:14
around um around drugs right drugs and alcohol so I think marijuana when you think about it like weed uh is people are very Carefree about H
01:33:27
well that's just a bit of weed fine but think about what it is right it's not an performance-enhancing drug it's a
01:33:34
performance inhibiting drug right it takes away your ambition and agency and it just makes you very chilled and relaxed and I don't think that's appropriate for men in their 20s or
01:33:48
teenagers right actually what you want is the performance and arting and I think what we should be s promoting is
01:33:54
almost like prohibition I mean I did it kind of organically I found comedy and I gave up drinking for 12 years I didn't
01:34:02
touch a drop and that was mainly because of Lifestyle because I was driving to gigs and driving back and then I didn't
01:34:08
want to hang over the next day because I I wanted to and everyone was trying to buy you drinks all the time and it just felt like it was like enough already I'm
01:34:16
going to be I'm going to be straight edge which I always like the term straight edge it's a punk rock term for
01:34:21
being T tootal straight edge it's cooler right mhm but I like the idea of going right
01:34:27
I'm going to control that I mean I drink a little bit now kind of socially but uh
01:34:32
not in a problem way but giving up was quite an important thing because it was also the focus that
01:34:38
it gives you so I don't know I I kind of I'm slightly uh slightly anti-drugs for young people I slightly think men in
01:34:45
their 50s and 60s that that are Workaholics maybe some marijuana wouldn't be a bad
01:34:51
idea but it's the it's the idea of kind of young people taking it and not having and it's what does it take from you
01:34:58
takes away that kind of that that raw ambition and that's as such a sort of valuable thing in those years it's
01:35:04
almost like that advantage that young people can't see the advantage that they have they see the the the the wealth uh
01:35:13
and the you know the financial um security of being 50 and when you're 20 what you don't recognize is the energy that you have when you're 20 that Inc inredible Advantage you have over
01:35:25
everyone else in the office in that you're just you're just full of energy your 20
01:35:31
years older than me exactly what advice would you give to me that's unobvious as a 31 year old you're 51 I believe yeah
01:35:38
what advice would you give to me that's would be probably quite unobvious to me at my age about the next sort of 20
01:35:44
years of my life stay out the sun stay out the sun sun damage is is 90% of Aging stay out the sun honestly you'll save a fortune plastic surgeon uh the uh I don't know I mean I
01:35:58
think that you know I don't know if you could be in a better place right now than you are but you can certainly give
01:36:05
yourself gifts when you're 50 what gifts do you want to give yourself let's talk about what gifts you would like to
01:36:11
receive on your 51st birthday from you interesting what would you like to have I'd like to be physically fit so
01:36:22
done no problem at all you will need to go to the gym three times a week and 80%
01:36:28
of it is going to be diet not exercise okay so you're going to need to do that but no problem at all I'm the genie you got it what else would you like I would
01:36:39
like a happy healthy family and relationship with my partner I'd like to be married and I'd like her to be happy
01:36:46
and I'd like my kids to be happy okay that's great I don't think you get to call that I think you get to be happy and you're in charge of that and their happiness is
01:36:59
maybe a byproduct of that but you need I I my perception would be you need the locus of control to be within you you could be happy make yourself happy and that's good for the people around you
01:37:11
but I don't think someone else's happiness can be your responsibility you can set up all the conditions and you can you can make it
01:37:17
as easy as you can but you know that's that's that's a lot but but I get the idea of it the
01:37:24
how many kids four four Jesus Christ all right so four four kids so you're you're
01:37:31
in minivan territory already you can't even drive a regular car this is crazy this is madness um four kids so one of each one
01:37:38
of each yeah a modern world uh I love that all right what else would you what else would you want in 20
01:37:44
years time I'd like to still be doing a business podcast you're not doing a business podcast now very little
01:37:50
business in this no one ever talks about supply and demand nonsense um I think yeah the the that
01:37:58
stoic thing of like you still doing this in 20 years time what a journey that will be like think about the people that you
01:38:05
will speak to think about the things that you will learn think about the the road that you're on and and actually if you're open to speaking to everyone then
01:38:12
the Comm the lines of communication are kept open and that's incredibly important in the modern world where
01:38:18
people are uh uh uh in these you know divided camps it's important what gifts were most important for you when you turned 50 that you either had or hadn't given
01:38:31
yourself when you turned 50 you know you look around on your your 50th birthday about the gifts that you either have or
01:38:37
that you wish you had what are those things I was in Australia last year on tour and
01:38:44
I fairly arbitrarily I mean I was always very good at trying new material and doing sort of warm-up gigs and I just
01:38:50
went oh I'm going to try something new I'm going to do new [ __ ] at at every show I'm going to try I'm going to write
01:38:55
jokes during the day and then I'll try them that night at every single show and a year later I've got a new
01:39:04
show and it was so easy to put together because it was just like every night you're you're you're trying new new new new and it forces you into that space of
01:39:14
writing more and more more and more and I feel like I'm getting better you know a year on you go that was yeah that was that was easy and it was just little and
01:39:26
often how important is that the the routines you know the small things because I think there's kind of two
01:39:32
camps of people typically there's those that think sweating the small stuff matters and there's those that think sweating the small stuff is
01:39:39
inconsequential and it's you know but it seems that you know the people that I seem to sit here with that are really successful at what they do have a real obsession with the detail I remember I
01:39:50
don't know if it's the small stuff I think it's the important stuff so I wouldn't swear anything other than
01:39:55
the joke writing and the performing on stage everything else it's all small stuff that's the important stuff and focusing on that like knowing what's important I guess would be the first stage there but then yeah that's that
01:40:09
seems absolutely critical remember I sat here with Walter isacon who followed Elon Musk for two years and followed
01:40:14
Steve Jobs for two years before Steve Jobs died um both two business people he's not connected though no one thinks
01:40:19
it's his fault no you're not you're not casting any no no I'm not saying he did I'm not saying he did but he said something to
01:40:25
me about how Steve Jobs would even make the circuit board inside the iPhone look beautiful and this came from Steve Jobs
01:40:33
father who who told him that he had to paint the back of the fence as well even though no one would ever see the back of
01:40:38
the fence because it was covered but he said that truly great individuals care equally about the parts that are unseen
01:40:45
you know the things you'll never see and I always that's incredible that Steve Jobs would care so much about making the
01:40:50
the circuit board inside this iPhone look beautiful and why is he doing that well is he doing that because he will know you know
01:40:58
and I and that made me think about this concept of your self story we have you said reputation earlier which is the
01:41:03
external story of what people think of you but everything we do writes this self story about who I like when you
01:41:09
leave I I love this concept the idea that we are a story We Tell ourselves yeah and everything I'm doing is telling
01:41:14
me who I am so Chris Eubank Jr the the son of the famous boxer Great boxer himself says that he if he's on a
01:41:20
treadmill and he gets cramp in his leg like really painful cramp in his leg no one's in the gym but he told himself he
01:41:26
was going to do 20 km he says I I will physically limp the last 8K yeah even though no one's there of course why of course because you you are who you who
01:41:39
you who you are like that's that how you do anything is how you do everything so he's all in he's he's that guy great that's it's great that's a
01:41:50
good that's a great story because you go yes well of course of course if you say you're going to do it and then you're the kind of person that does the thing
01:41:57
you say it's powerful right if you keep a little promise to yourself that's powerful that changes your sort of perception of self you can trust yourself a little bit more a lot of us pathologically let let
01:42:09
ourselves down in small ways and don't really think those promises matter we break commitments to oursel pathologically okay but but you can but
01:42:16
you can change that right you can build that up a little bit and we'll see the results in 20 years time bit and healthy
01:42:23
and you got a family and kids and you're doing great you're still doing this it's
01:42:29
great we'll see it I think you probably you can't beat yourself up over everything right you you have to choose
01:42:36
where to suffer you have to choose what's the thing that matters to you and don't just let yourself down on that so
01:42:41
maybe you're not going to do everything okay fine do you think that's what confidence is confidence and yeah
01:42:49
confidence in yourself is just a combination and a culmination of the commitments you kept to yourself and
01:42:56
what you Pro to yourself about yourself I think that's uh I haven't thought about it like that but that seems like a
01:43:01
very uh logical conclusion you know it's that thing of you want to give the world irrefutable
01:43:08
proof you are who you say you are well the world and yourself there's a mirror up as well are you who you say you are
01:43:15
yeah well great that's a that's a lovely thing to be and to build that up in small ways I mean that's really you're
01:43:21
talking about building character of going well I'm going to make that promise to myself and then I'm going to I'm going to do it so you don't make
01:43:27
[ __ ] promises to yourself yeah New Year resolutions are not a good idea because if you're going to let yourself
01:43:33
down that's more damaging pick something that you can do pick something small last time we spoke you expressed an aspiration an ambition you had you
01:43:45
said I think we were talking about Dave Chappelle and you said you wanted to do longer form jokes yeah so there's there's some stuff
01:43:52
in the new show so there's like 20 minutes on being a dad um that I think is really funny and I wanted it to fit
01:43:59
within my Persona as well because a lot of people sort of become fathers and they get a bit sentimental and they lose
01:44:04
some of their Edge so the stuff that I've got about being a father is uh is brutal but it's funny it's funny it's
01:44:10
it's a funny thing to to kind of experience as well it's something kind of new to talk about who's your favorite
01:44:16
comic of all time Chris Rock really Chris Rock by yeah Chris Rock I think the uh the the I had the great pleasure
01:44:23
of working with Chris as well and he's an extraordinary Talent the uh the the Rhythm and Cadence and the points that he makes and the way that he sets up material um the way that he delivers a
01:44:36
bunch line that just everything about it from sort of a technical point of view I admire and I love what he says I I I
01:44:42
just think he's he's he's just [ __ ] hilarious and I see the work I see what he does I see the work that he does now he's he's been a legendary Next Level
01:44:53
performer for 30 years and he's still working just as hard and you got to love that what did you make of this lap well
01:45:06
I mean obviously just I mean it's there's no there's no um there's no argument that's it's a it's a uh I I was
01:45:18
I was shocked you know it it strikes me that uh Will Smith may be the greatest actor of his generation because he was pretending to be an entirely different human being for
01:45:28
the last 40 years and The Mask slipped and we saw a a Yeah a different side and I think Chris really the
01:45:40
extraordinary thing about that moment was Chris Rock got slapped in the face his level of
01:45:47
composure was he was like a Hindu cow get slapped in the face by a big dude right hard I just got slapped in the face
01:45:58
that's going to be a huge TV moment here's the award he's to be admired incredible
01:46:08
man you were on stage as well you know a couple of months after when Dave Chappelle was attacked I actually saw
01:46:16
you in the back I remember seeing you sort of come out and just you you kind of looked a little bit like security but maybe not the most yeah me me well
01:46:22
security so when when Dave got rushed uh and it was very scary because you know it could have gone another way um you know the guy had a knife orbe it a knife in a gun
01:46:36
it was it was a it was a kind of a fake gun that pressed a button and a knife came out it was a it was a um
01:46:43
yes it was it was it was a knife that identified as a gun maybe I don't know anyway so um yeah I remember I was
01:46:49
standing with Jeff Ross on the side of the stage and then and then this this thing happened it was yeah it was it's
01:46:54
crazy crazy scary had he got his ass beat the person that ran out and got stomped out by like well he got the reason he got stomped
01:47:05
out wasn't it wasn't um uh malice it was he wouldn't let go of the gun knife so the guy had a gun what looked like a gun I mean it was a gun and he wouldn't let go of it and they I think um the
01:47:19
security guys um uh broke his arm getting the getting the gun off him yeah but what are you going to do let the guy have the gun like it's a it's yeah it's
01:47:30
very yeah pretty scary uh scary thing are CH times changing in terms of violence towards comedians is think so I think they're they're isolated into uh Eddie Murphy had the best line on it
01:47:43
Eddie Murphy said uh he said Will Smith when he slapped Chris Rock rang the dyner bell for crazy all the crazies came out for a couple couple of weeks the guy rushes um
01:47:56
Chappelle it's not it's not a great situation I mean it's like it's it's a scary thing when you think you know
01:48:02
friends getting rushed by someone with a knife and you sort of think of what could have happened but he was fine and
01:48:09
obviously you know was shaken in the moment but he was pretty pretty philosophical about it anyone ever attacked you on stage no I mean
01:48:17
threatened you yeah I've been I've been threatened a little bit but okay not part of the game I guess I mean it's like it's that weird thing of like when
01:48:30
you there's a there's a routine in it I talk a little bit about uh being canceled on the on the special and you
01:48:35
talk about like what I'm going to do next time because it's going to happen again right so the next time I get canceled I've got a plan here's what I'm
01:48:41
going to do I'm going to say I've rehearsed this I'm going to make a public statement on the day the news story breaks I'm going to say I'm sorry
01:48:49
and the people that are offended will say you don't really mean that apology and I'll say so you're saying I could
01:48:54
say something and not mean it now you're getting it a smart but it's that it's they're jokes you can't go around apologizing for jokes I'm exceptionally excited to sit
01:49:08
down and watch your Netflix special Natural Born Killer which came out on April 16th there's been a lot of
01:49:14
conversation around it because I think a lot of people are acknowledging that you've adopted a slightly different style to the past and everyone's excited
01:49:20
to see this this newer Jimmy this this heavily iterated optimized version of Jimmy that's taken 51 years to produce and I always talk to people about our last conversation and you
01:49:32
telling me that even you at at the peak of the mountain in many people's eyes are still trying to find small marginal
01:49:39
gains and and challenge yourself and come out of your comfort zone and I think that's exactly what you do in this
01:49:44
special I've been fortunate enough to see some of the the jokes and the angles in the special and I think for some
01:49:49
reason it feels to me like Society needs to have some of these conversations as well so what even though there is humor
01:49:55
there underneath the the jokes you tell there's um I think there's an underlying important message that's greeting
01:50:01
Society at the right moment I very much appreciate that is that accurate is that an accurate
01:50:06
assessment I think it is I think it's it has it is different to the last special and it's got more of me in it and it's
01:50:13
like I'm in a very privileged position where people you know some people listen to me uh and I have my audience I know
01:50:20
what my audience are so I can I can get a message in under the wire uh that other people can't really talk about and so that thing of going if I'm doing sex ed I do sex ed in my way and it's very
01:50:32
funny but it's getting a message across to young men that I think is very valuable I'm excited to listen specifically about the stuff about consent very very excited Jimmy we have
01:50:43
a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for oh
01:50:49
well I've given this literally no thought so right okay I don't get to see it either which is funny people don't
01:50:55
believe me when I say that but okay what's the have I got a question you have got a question that's been left for you the question that's been left for
01:51:01
you is what would you tell your 20-year-old self that you wish you knew and that would have positively impacted your life and helped you to avoid
01:51:12
unnecessary pain I think I would have said enjoy yourself more try and be more present I think I was uh
01:51:27
I think I was worried about the results and not the process at that age I think I was worried about what kind of degree
01:51:32
I would get uh and working hard and I should have been worried about having more
01:51:38
fun what's telling you in hindsight that that's the important thing you needed to hear at that point what was the symptom
01:51:44
of not hearing that I think it was I think there's a there's a weird thing in uh if you're in Academia and you have
01:51:52
that imposter syndrome and you feel like oh oh God what's what's I don't belong here I'm not bright enough I need to work harder that's valuable in one sense it makes you kind of work harder but actually you know should have what's
01:52:05
what what's college for it's just for growing up be in the moment I what do you think of University I think University is a luxury item now I think the intrinsic
01:52:17
value of university is less important than the what it signals about you so I think a degree from Cambridge is a Louis Vuitton bag it's a luxury item that says
01:52:30
oh I have this um you can just get the reading list and read the books I'm not sure whether whether
01:52:37
academia's you know I don't know I've got strong views on Academia because I was when I went to University it was
01:52:43
free right it was very difficult to get in but it was free and I think we should bring that back I think if you're doing
01:52:50
let's say stem right let's say you're studying any stem subject University should be free in the UK and if you get
01:52:57
a stem degree from anywhere else in the world it should come with um British passport attached come spend some time here great it's not a bad
01:53:09
policy your kid turns to you one day and says daddy I'm I want to be a magician what' you say to your kid they want to be a a a magician or they say that I want to be an NBA player let's do
01:53:24
that one what' you say to your kid wait go back become a magician um uh I I don't know I mean listen it's it's uh I suppose it's that thing of like follow
01:53:35
your dreams if they're hiring it's Chris rocks line isn't it yeah Follow Your Passion if they're hiring if you if if you're good at that if you're I don't
01:53:48
know if my kid winds up being 7 foot I'd be surprised but if he is then maybe maybe then you know maybe there's a
01:53:54
maybe there's a future in it but the yeah pick something that seems realistic to you have you got a bias
01:54:01
about what you want your son to do uh honestly because we all have I would have a I would have a bit of a bias I I mean I don't know I don't know what jobs are going to be in 30 years time right
01:54:14
you you want your kid to be happy and maybe maybe to have some sort of uh grounding in critical thinking and beyond that I know good luck Jimmy thank
01:54:25
you our first conversation really blew me away and it it taught me something about actually about this podcast you're
01:54:33
one of the real defining conversations I had that taught me that everyone is much more
01:54:39
than the surface that you see and it's funny cuz when last time when we recorded it was upstairs in my kitchen
01:54:45
my previous kitchen and the team text me when you arrived and they said oh Jimmy car's just arrived I think you arrived on your bicycle or something and they're
01:54:51
like oh God he's just act a joke about someone's mom downstairs and I thought oh this is this is Jimmy car the Jimmy
01:54:56
car I've seen on nine out of 10 cats and then we went upstairs and had that conversation and it just blew my mind it
01:55:02
just absolutely blew my mind well this is the difficult second album how did I do oh fantastic oh great fantastic
01:55:09
absolutely but no it really it taught me that um people are much more than than just the the mask that we wear and we
01:55:15
all wear a mask you know Persona to get through life and we find it easier sometimes to wear the mask than to
01:55:20
confront who we actually are but in that ation I feel like I got to meet The Man Behind the Mask per se and I I really
01:55:27
like sharing that side of myself I I I really enjoy this I really enjoy the show I wish you every success thank you
01:55:32
so much Jimmy thank you for everything and I highly recommend everybody go and see Natural Born Killer which is on Netflix right now I'm going to put the
01:55:38
link to the Netflix special in the description below [Music] a [Music]