00:00:00
I have inside information on Jeffrey Epstein and why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent. And I
00:00:06
know this because when I was working in government meetings were not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we
00:00:12
tell the public? So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth.
00:00:18
>> I think people need to know the truth. >> So put on your seat belt. I'm going to
00:00:22
tell you everything and all senior people in the US government know everything that you and I have discussed
00:00:27
here today. So you've been behind the scenes with some of the most successful,
00:00:30
richest, most powerful people on planet Earth. But what is it you do, Gavin? >> So I do protective coverage. You know,
00:00:35
any of the ways that wealthy or prominent people might be targeted. For example, the Saudi Arabian government
00:00:41
obtained a system which can get into your phone used it on Jeff Bezos. So our work was to figure out how it happened.
00:00:48
>> Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone? So, I'll tell
00:00:51
you in a second, but we're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what
00:00:55
we say, what we text, and there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone. Do you
00:01:02
have any skepticism about that? >> I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.
00:01:07
>> Lucky you. But all power centers in human history lie. There are some examples of this where we'll start
00:01:12
telling the truth about something, but years later, things like cancer causing asbestous and baby powder, 100,000
00:01:17
people dying from heart attacks from opioids. and we'll see it with mass vaccination.
00:01:21
>> So, what advice would you give about how to navigate in the world we're living in
00:01:25
today to avoid risk threat? >> I've got some core truths. So, first of
00:01:29
all, guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant
00:01:36
subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:01:42
whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:01:46
ever done anything for you, giving you value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so
00:01:52
much to myself, but also to my team because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And
00:01:56
it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show
00:01:59
a little bit better every single week. So, that's a favor I would ask you. And
00:02:03
um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down. And we'll continue
00:02:07
to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the
00:02:12
world. And uh yeah, let's do this. >> Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that
00:02:22
mutual friend actually sent me a voice note late last night. Here is what the voice note says.
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>> I'm calling it this crazy hours. I found out that you're interviewing a dear
00:02:30
friend of mine, Gavin Debecker, I think in 2 days. I think on the 13th. He is an
00:02:35
extraordinary human being, extraordinary soul. He comes from a a very tough background. But what he's done to move
00:02:42
from that background to becoming probably the single greatest security expert in the world. He designed the
00:02:48
systems that are used to protect the Supreme Court. I've met him decades ago
00:02:53
when there was a threat happening to a former girlfriend of mine and then I was getting threatening letters and he
00:02:58
deciphered the letters in micros secondsonds, got the FBI involved and put a stop to it all. It was
00:03:05
extraordinary what he did. Wow. >> That was Tony Robbins for anyone that didn't recognize
00:03:11
>> I recognize >> the voice. Yeah, it'd be crazy if someone didn't.
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>> But it got me incredibly incredibly curious because he said lots of things
00:03:17
there that I found fascinating. >> Um, the first one I'm going to start
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with is he described you helping him with a personal situation in his life. And I guess this beggets the question,
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>> what is it you do for people like Tony Robbins? What is it you do for famous
00:03:32
people, for world leaders? What is it you do, Gavin? The main function of my company is anti-assination.
00:03:40
So we develop and deploy anti-assination strategies. Under that under assassination which you can consider the
00:03:47
worst possible outcome um are lesser outcomes like other kinds of crimes uh destruction of of reputation uh threats
00:03:55
that are designed to cause anxiety and fear. We have a division that does assessment of threats and management of
00:04:01
threats. We have a division that does actual protective coverage. That's the
00:04:05
biggest division, meaning actual physical protectors, fit, young, capable people, not uh retired ex- cops who are
00:04:12
overweight and on their second career, but uh you know, people who are who are really trained for this specific field,
00:04:18
armored vehicles, modifications to homes, basically everything that fits into the category of preventing uh uh or
00:04:25
disrupting uh uh efforts to do tissue damage. So, we're in the business of preventing tissue damage. And who are
00:04:32
some of the names that you do this for and have done this for over the years? >> All of the names that I do it for are uh
00:04:39
never spoken by me. So, uh I don't say who clients are and I don't say who they
00:04:44
aren't because if I say to you so and so isn't a client, uh that is information
00:04:49
that might reveal that somebody else is or something you heard is true or not true. The way I can describe it to you
00:04:54
though is to say that it's if you took the 20 people you would assume uh fit
00:04:58
into this category or the 50 um most of them are clients. >> I mean according to the internet you
00:05:05
sort of reference certain things before because these people have spoken or you know you've been seen in photos.
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>> That's right. If a client identifies me or it happens because I testify in a
00:05:15
court case or something that's a different animal. It just doesn't come from I view myself as sort of like a a
00:05:20
psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be the one revealing it. >> And some of those names that have been
00:05:25
revealed by others are Jeff Bezos, Elizabeth Taylor, Sher Madonna, Barbara Stysand, and many, many, many more. From
00:05:32
government officials to royalty, etc., etc. What was Tony referring to when he said that you helped him with a
00:05:39
situation with his girlfriend, a threat, found out that it wasn't who people
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thought they were, >> right? Surely, he was referring to a case I'll never reveal, and I won't even
00:05:47
acknowledge he's a client. >> You won't even say he's a client.
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>> I won't say it. if you if you have it from some other source. >> Tony said it.
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>> I I understand your interrogation is makes all the sense in the world, but I
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just don't say it. I don't talk about clients. There's a bunch of reasons, but
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most of all, just absolute confidentiality. I know it's weird. Apologies. >> But I heard you talk about the Jeff
00:06:06
Bezos situation. >> Uh you heard me talk about uh uh cyber security and and the vulnerability of
00:06:13
phones. Uh, and the Bezos situation is a little bit different in that I was involved very publicly in it, but
00:06:20
clearly with permission of my client and and organized with my client. Same thing
00:06:24
as when I testify in a court case, there's no secrecy about it. I'm doing
00:06:28
it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then do it everywhere. And and so in that
00:06:33
case where you did have Jeff's permission, the the background context was there was a newspaper that was going
00:06:37
to publish that he was having an affair with I think his current wife who wasn't
00:06:41
his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez, and you were called upon in that scenario to figure out what was going on
00:06:47
and you were able to solve that. >> Yes. >> What are you able to talk about there?
00:06:51
>> Well, I'll think back to what's already been what's already been public. Uh and
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it won't be from me. It won't be anything about the client, but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government,
00:07:02
which at that time had just obtained a u a system called Pegasus 3, which can get
00:07:08
into your phone remotely. It doesn't require a click of any kind, meaning you
00:07:13
don't have to acknowledge anything. It can get in. It's called a no click
00:07:16
exploit. And it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do holding the phone in your
00:07:24
hand. even if it was off, could turn on the camera, could turn on the microphone. It exists. It's a very real
00:07:30
thing made by the Israelis. And the Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And he used it on a group of dissident
00:07:40
around the world. He also used it on Jeff Bezos. According to the United Nations, according to lots of things
00:07:46
that have been public, our work was to a figure it out, figure out how it happened. In those days, I didn't know
00:07:53
what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what this system was. But the instrumental or
00:07:59
perhaps useful thing for you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the
00:08:07
confidentiality of your phone if a government wants you. And the reason I say there's no stopping it is that even
00:08:14
when Apple puts out a new solution uh which they do an update uh that you know breaks some particular exploit thousands
00:08:22
of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit. So if I said to you here's a phone and we've
00:08:27
modified it and it's great Mr. President here you can use this phone for your
00:08:31
confidential conversations. Uh in a month it won't work anymore. And so I I'm able to tell clients and friends and
00:08:38
now you and your audience there are a lot of things being offered for sale that you know supposedly protect the
00:08:45
confidentiality of your phone calls for example or your texts. Nothing will work
00:08:49
reliably. There is no solution to that problem that is reliable. >> Nothing.
00:08:54
>> Yeah. There is there devices sold. There's all variety of things. But the
00:08:58
reality is that even if something worked, even if I said to you, here's this cool new such and such phone that
00:09:04
will protect you, it'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant
00:09:08
effort to improve the exploits. And also I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put
00:09:16
myself on the list uh and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you.
00:09:20
We're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text.
00:09:24
And uh I have a dear friend and client who every text and every email that he sends also goes to his executive
00:09:32
assistant and everybody knows it. And what happens is it controls and influences his behavior. So when you
00:09:39
send me that off-color joke that I wouldn't want to see on television, he responds differently. He doesn't say,
00:09:45
"Oh, that's great." And add another topping line on top of it. He because he
00:09:48
knows that his assistant in the other room is seeing that. And so the best we can all do is be be watchful what we say
00:09:56
and have no pretense of of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does not exist. Period. The US government got
00:10:05
into the phones of all of our allies, the prime ministers, chancellor of West Germany, uh prime minister of England,
00:10:13
president of France. This is a game that's going on all the time and uh and privacy is just not part of the new
00:10:20
world. Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone? >> Well, the again from what's been public,
00:10:26
the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington Post. And the Saudis had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist
00:10:33
for the Washington Post. And the Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good
00:10:40
for the Saudis. And then they really went after the I'll call him the head of
00:10:45
state. He's the prince but but his father was alive and was actually the head of state but they really went after
00:10:50
NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of adversary in that regard. Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund developed an
00:10:58
Amazon competitor called something like N or something like that and so they were concerned about that and they were
00:11:04
also doing deals with Amazon and so they could get economic advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting
00:11:11
to each other. So there was a lot of a lot of moving parts to that. So all these things I've just shared with you
00:11:16
were highstakes matters going on around the time that Kosoji was killed and that
00:11:21
the western countries of the world were objecting to this assassination team of his going around and and killing people
00:11:28
and and getting into their phones. >> In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly accused the US tabloid the National
00:11:33
Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos including what he
00:11:38
described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post
00:11:44
saying AMI emailed his lawyer and security adviser Gavin Debeca's council threatening to publish personal photos
00:11:51
and texts unless he and his team publicly stated that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically
00:11:55
motivated. >> Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the Inquirer and they negotiated with me and
00:12:01
my lawyer over this that I was to go public and say two things. I was to say it was not politically motivated and it
00:12:08
was not influenced by outside actors i.e. the Saudis and that there was no hacking involved. My question was, why
00:12:16
the hell do you want me to say those two things specifically? And my I already knew the answer, of course, because
00:12:22
there was outside influence and there was hacking. Their request for me was so strange that we didn't go along with it.
00:12:30
Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post talking about it publicly and saying, "Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this,
00:12:38
then where is a regular person?" And ultimately those pictures were never published.
00:12:42
>> Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist because
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they were doing a fascinating thing by the way. They were it's sort of like selling you land in in Florida that's
00:12:51
marsh land and doesn't exist. They were doing an extortion on a thing they didn't even have. All right. So it's
00:12:57
kind of a double crime. It's an extortion and fraud. >> It's interesting. You know, we we start
00:13:01
talking here about digital coms and that type of security with everything that's
00:13:06
going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files and there's
00:13:08
a big conversation, you know, because now we can see 3,000 3 million documents and many of them are emails that people
00:13:14
have sent at different times. Some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails to Epstein and now those are
00:13:19
all out there in the public to see. I wondered what your take was on all of this stuff. You must be watching this
00:13:25
stuff from like through the lens that you've built your career and uh you must
00:13:30
have an interesting opinion. >> Some of it I I don't talk about because
00:13:34
I have a fair amount of inside information and I'm just watchful about not getting near the line.
00:13:40
>> What do you mean by inside information? I mean information that that I might
00:13:43
have gotten from uh I'm characterizing it carefully that I might have gotten
00:13:47
from government agencies that are clients or that I might have gotten because uh clients were uh were
00:13:53
implicated like I learned today for example this morning on the way over here that I'm in the Epstein files.
00:13:58
>> Oh, really? >> And here's the way I'm in there is that someone sent Epstein an article that I
00:14:03
wrote called Fooling Ourselves into war. And so uh somebody sent that uh article
00:14:09
which is an article I really like by the way uh published in in Huffington Post at the time and um they sent that to
00:14:16
Epstein. So that's an example of being in the Epstein files and yet obviously
00:14:21
never having met Epstein. But I have a few clients who and friends who the Epstein group made approaches on and
00:14:30
failed. Meaning they tried to get them and failed. I'll give you one story without naming the person, of course. He
00:14:37
goes to meet with Epstein in New York to ask for money for a charity. And and Epste is perceived as this big
00:14:44
billionaire, which he was not, by the way. I'll tell you in a second. And Epste is in a robe. And they're across
00:14:49
the desk just like you and I are. And Epstein says, "Hey, um, they're finishing the meeting." He says, "Hey,
00:14:54
I'm going to get a massage." Hence my robe. Do you want to get a massage? And
00:14:58
through the hallway, my friend can see a massage table and a room and a very cute
00:15:04
girl who's the massage therapist, right? Dressed like a massage therapist. And so
00:15:08
he happened to say no. In fact, interestingly, he happens to not like massage, which is itself, you know, a
00:15:16
lot of people would say yes and might even think it would improve my relationship with this guy, Jeffrey
00:15:21
Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy that I'm trying to get money from my
00:15:24
charity. Um, had that happened, what a different world for that person. What a different life. Because in that
00:15:32
room is cameras and then eventually audio. It didn't start off with audio, but audio was added later. And then
00:15:39
you're getting a hand job, if I'm allowed to say hand job, from somebody
00:15:42
who you don't even think about their age, but turns out to be 17, and you are
00:15:48
in a world of trouble for the rest of your life. And that's a big piece of what was going on with Epstein with
00:15:56
cameras in that apartment in New York and eventually audio cameras and eventually audio at the island. My take
00:16:03
on it uh and certainly my public take is that there was a profound uh uh blackmail operation going on to the
00:16:12
benefit of probably more than one government, but at least one government. And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a
00:16:18
billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire. For one thing, the his earning path is
00:16:23
highly suspect. I'll first tell you what he was. What he was is a construct. He's
00:16:28
a created construct. Money, wealth, private jet, private island, fun, not married, young girls, lots of things.
00:16:37
So, he was a construct. the money uh $500 million of money came from Les Wexner who's a wealthy guy who uh owns
00:16:46
or owned I don't know what he's doing now uh Victoria's Secret notator to the
00:16:51
state of Israel and $500 million was transferred to Epstein along with power of attorney to use it and invest it in
00:16:58
the ways he saw fit. Quite an unusual uh you know I'm mildly wealthy but I'm not
00:17:02
sending you $500 million. I'll tell you that the idea that you're that you're
00:17:07
doing this is itself extraordinary, but it was probably the funding mechanism for this construct. While it's a real
00:17:15
name, uh, Jeffrey Epstein and he has a real birth certificate and grew up in a real way, the picture that is presented
00:17:21
to the world is not authentic. It is not accurate to who he was. And the more you
00:17:28
dig into this story, which of course people are doing so much now because of these uh 3 million uh documents so far
00:17:34
and videos by the way and photographs, there's a lot of material there. The uh
00:17:38
it's very interesting to people right now and and and more to be learned. But
00:17:42
you know what was actually going on? Why in the world would anybody say, "Well,
00:17:46
there are national security implications to some of this content. That's why some
00:17:51
things are redacted." What would that be? Why would the prosecutor who prosecuted him in Florida
00:17:58
and provided one of the most unusual plea bargain deals in world history and certainly unique in American history
00:18:06
which is imagine I've got you I'm a US attorney I've got you on some crime and
00:18:10
you say okay I'm going to plead guilty I'm going to serve my time but please
00:18:14
let my accountant go and please don't prosecute my wife because all she did was deliver the stuff and she didn't
00:18:20
wasn't involved in anything and so Those are called unindicted co-conspirators.
00:18:25
So I make a deal with you and I say, "Okay, you go to jail for the 8 months
00:18:28
and we will leave the unindicted co-conspirators unindicted. We won't prosecute your wife, your son, your your
00:18:35
accountant or what have you." That's a very normal process. It's it's a it's a
00:18:38
bargaining process, basically. However, in the Epstein case, the US attorney gave him a deal that said uh that we
00:18:47
would not prosecute unnamed co-conspirators. Holy [ __ ] Who's that? Who's unnamed
00:18:54
co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators could be 50 people. It could be 75 people. The guy who gave that sweetheart
00:19:01
deal became the secretary of labor. He was at that time the US attorney for for Florida. He was asked, "Why did you give
00:19:09
that sweetheart deal?" Because the deal is ridiculous. Unnamed co-conspirators
00:19:13
will be exempt from prosecution. And and he said, "I was told he belonged to
00:19:18
intelligence." and then he had to resign because of this. There was a lot going
00:19:22
on with with with Epstein uh the person who I mean there's so much of this but
00:19:27
the person who uh sort of brought Epstein into the world of power and got him his job at I think Morgan Stanley I
00:19:36
could have that wrong but one of those big finance companies was William Bar's
00:19:39
father. William Bar was the attorney general who was the US attorney general when Epstein was killed or died in
00:19:46
prison depending on your choice of of reality. So there's so much there but I
00:19:52
won't be the first guest Steven that you've had uh that says that um it was
00:19:57
an intelligence operation. Why the US government is reluctant to be more uh transparent? Some of it is national
00:20:04
security. Some of it is, let's imagine an ally of ours, uh, is involved in in
00:20:10
that operation. So, there's a reluctance and there's a question. It's a little
00:20:13
bit like UFOs. Could the public handle it is the question that's always asked
00:20:18
in these cases. Meaning, could the public handle it if, for example, the UK was running an intelligence operation
00:20:25
inside the United States to control senators and congressmen and powerful executives and powerful figures and
00:20:33
scientists? Could we handle it? Could the US public handle it? My take personally, absolutely. Yes.
00:20:39
>> So, you believe that he was an intelligence asset and it sounds like you believe he was an intelligence asset
00:20:46
potentially by a US ally? >> Yes. >> So, who is that ally? >> Israel.
00:20:52
>> You believe that Epstein was an Israel >> intelligence asset? >> Yes. Yes, I do. And uh and Glain
00:20:58
Maxwell, just for additional background, but everybody can find it. Her father was an Israeli intelligent asset who was
00:21:05
so revered. His funeral ceremony was held in Israel, was attended by the prime minister, by I think the last four
00:21:12
or five, by every living head of Mossad attended. And there were words used in eulogies like he did things for Israel
00:21:20
that uh the world will never know about. There's a a lot of good connection there
00:21:24
and a lot of good connective tissue. Um, some of which I've shared with you because it's public and some of which
00:21:30
I'm not sharing, but that is uh that is indeed what I believe. Yes. And >> not just me, by the way. I you might
00:21:36
already be there. And you've certainly had another guest sit here and and uh
00:21:40
former CIA guy uh Kira Cow, how do you say his last name? >> Yeah. >> Uh am I close to
00:21:45
>> You're close. It's closer than I would get. >> Okay, good. And he was point blank in
00:21:49
saying Israel. So there's no there's no direct evidence. But what people are
00:21:53
essentially doing is putting the pieces together to make a picture. >> There is direct evidence. There's just
00:21:57
not direct evidence I'm sharing at this moment. But there's the there's plenty
00:22:01
of evidence that that has been public already, some of which I've shared. I mean, I could I could do it for 40
00:22:06
minutes, but everybody can just go to chat GPT. And you know, if you ask Chad GPT, make the best case for this. A good
00:22:13
thing for viewers to remember. Make the best case for dot dot dot whatever it is. If you ask
00:22:19
the first answer you get if you ask a straight question will always be the official narrative.
00:22:24
>> I've done exactly that because you said it. I I asked Chi make the best case for
00:22:28
Epstein being an Israel spy. Here is what it said. The case that Jeffrey Epste functioned as an Israeli
00:22:34
intelligence asset rest on a pattern alignment rather than direct proof. He ran a sexual sexual compromise operation
00:22:41
resembling known intelligence compromat tradecraft. >> Compromat. Yeah, like it's a Russian
00:22:47
word that means we compromise you. >> Had wealth and access far beyond his
00:22:51
formal career and operated with unusual legal protection for years. His close partnership with Gla Maxwell, whose
00:22:57
father had documented intelligence ties fuel suspicion, as does reporting by journalists who say Epstein's activities
00:23:03
were discussed in intelligence adjacent circles. The cameras and the microphones
00:23:08
hidden in his apartment and his home. How do we know they were there and why? Well, how I know they were there is a
00:23:17
little bit different from how everybody knows they were there. And I don't know
00:23:20
enough about the entire history of the FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny part of the FBI piece. When they went to
00:23:26
execute a search warrant at that apartment after his more recent arrest, they found and even photographed a bunch
00:23:33
of CDROMs or discs of some kind that were labeled, but they didn't take them.
00:23:38
They said, "We'll get a warrant and we'll be back for those." and they came
00:23:41
back after a mere six days and it was all gone. So where it is, I don't know. Does the US
00:23:50
government have it? Does somebody else have it? I just don't know the answer.
00:23:54
But I know from very direct information regarding the island and the apartment. I don't know about New Mexico. I just
00:24:00
don't happen to know. Another house that he owned that there were cameras and
00:24:04
then eventually audio. Audio was added. Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon me. testimony from girls who said girls
00:24:10
who worked there and visited there a lot who said that in a small room near to the right of the front door was a whole
00:24:17
thing of videos where the recording was done. >> And can you explain to me why recording
00:24:22
videos and audio of people getting those kinds of uh doing those kinds of things
00:24:28
would be a useful asset for this foreign adversary to have. >> Sure. Uh, you know, blackmail is not
00:24:39
always done by calling you up and saying, um, you know, hey, Stephen, I'm going to hurt you in the following way
00:24:47
if you don't do A, B, or C. The other version is is far better, which there's
00:24:52
is even alluded to in some of the now released material, which is he calls and he says, "Stephen, I've got terrible
00:24:59
news. Do you remember you had that massage from Cindy? You know that girl, Cindy?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember."
00:25:04
Well, she recorded something. She had something in her bag. She made a recording. And I got worse news.
00:25:09
Stephen, the girl's 16 and a half. And now, by the way, you are stomach drops,
00:25:15
diarrhea. You are in a world of stress right now just hearing that. And he, instead of being your blackmailer,
00:25:23
becomes your rescuer. He says, "I can handle it. I can handle it. I can handle
00:25:26
it. She's got the recordings. I don't know where they are, but I can handle
00:25:29
it. I can handle it. I can handle it. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry."
00:25:32
And he owns you now. forever. If you were involved in a naked experience with someone who's underage, and there's a
00:25:40
video of it and audio of it as well, you will do anything that you are asked to do that is within reason. Very few
00:25:48
people would have the character and the stamina to do what you describe Bezos doing, which is that he wrote a public
00:25:56
letter saying, "A very unusual thing happened to me the other day. I'm being
00:26:01
blackmailed by the National Enquirer." and here's what they said. That's very,
00:26:06
very rare. And so, you know, a senator, a congressman, he owned a lot of people.
00:26:13
Do you have any skepticism about that? >> I don't have skepticism. I just have a lot
00:26:21
of ignorance to how this whole world works. >> Lucky you. >> And I just have a lot of ignorance to
00:26:26
like, you know, because you hear about these things in almost like movies. And uh it appears that we're all kind of
00:26:33
witnessing something we might have regulated just to the movies happened before our eyes.
00:26:39
And even when you know I saw some of the emails coming up on my feed of things that Epstein had emailed people, he
00:26:44
seemed to be continually inviting people to hang out with him in a way that is quite atypical. Now maybe I'm just an
00:26:50
introvert, but I'm not. He he was like aggressive in his coms to people saying,
00:26:55
"Come and hang out with me. I'm doing this thing at this dinner party. Come to
00:26:57
my island. Are you in the area?" and he was succeeding in getting a lot of people to come and visit his his homes
00:27:02
and his island. And yeah, it's uh >> by the way, Stephen, in the circumstance
00:27:07
you are in today, you might well have heard from from Jeffrey Epstein. You might well have had somebody who knows
00:27:13
you who says, "Hey, there's this guy in New York. Loves your show. Uh just
00:27:16
terrific." And and all of a sudden, you're getting that invitation. And
00:27:20
you're getting that invitation through someone you know and kind of like >> like Joe Rogan did.
00:27:25
>> I don't know. But like so many people. Well, Joe Rogan said it. >> Oh, if he's been public about it, I'm
00:27:30
just not going to be the one to say it, but I I got it. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Joe Rogan publicly la
00:27:34
last week said that, and it's in the files, that a former guest, I think it was Lawrence Krauss of his show, invited
00:27:42
him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein. And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe
00:27:47
Rogan in. Joe Rogan said like absolutely abs well this what Joe Rogan's said
00:27:51
absolutely [ __ ] not, >> right? >> And was creeped out about it and never
00:27:54
went and was never involved. Well, the point I was just making is that in your present circumstance with the, you know,
00:28:00
enormous audience and and the reach of this show and and all your work, the small videos, etc. Um, of course you're
00:28:06
a terrific person because now I can call you up and say, uh, hey, will you have this person on? Or I can say, hey, will
00:28:12
you be really skeptical about this topic and will you say, I don't believe it.
00:28:16
And will you say, I think it's wrong or will you say, I think it's anti-semitism
00:28:19
or will you will you say such and such? And brother, you will. the the moment where I started to, you know, really
00:28:26
understand the blackmail angle um was when I started reading some of the particular emails that Epstein had sent
00:28:32
to himself. >> One in particular where he sent himself an email regarding Bill Gates. He's
00:28:38
alleging that Bill Gates has slept with He's sending himself an email. >> Yes.
00:28:43
>> Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with someone, some some Russian prostitute,
00:28:47
and that he got an STD, an extrammarital affair, all of these allegations. And when I read that email, um, then I
00:28:53
thought, oh, you know, he was he was a black mailer. >> He was definitely a black mailer and
00:28:57
he's collected all these rich and famous people and he has them in his pocket
00:29:01
now. >> Just to close off then on this uh point of Epstein before we move on, you said
00:29:05
they they've released some of the files and you said they hadn't released other
00:29:09
files. Yes. And you have implied that was because they basically can't >> release these other files necessarily.
00:29:14
>> Well, I don't I don't know what I think more is coming. I think more will be
00:29:18
released, but there are certainly files, including files even right now, even yesterday, though there's a law. Uh, as
00:29:24
you may know, Congress voted for a law to release everything unredacted. Um, there's still a lot of redacted stuff.
00:29:31
So, there's more to come. And, uh, will some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody going
00:29:36
to sit here like I did today and say, "Hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah
00:29:40
blah, and let me just tell you what was really going on. Uh, you know, I'm the
00:29:43
head of the CIA, and let me tell you what was really going on." Not likely.
00:29:46
>> But Trump knows. He knows who Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein really was. >> I would say all senior people in the US
00:29:54
government and and many many people in general know everything that you and I have discussed here today.
00:30:00
>> No secret. By the way, what do you think? Let's imagine somebody came
00:30:04
forward and said this country described as our greatest ally. I would say our greatest ally is the UK
00:30:10
>> uh based on on history. But, uh, Israel is an important ally in the Middle East
00:30:15
and it's a it's a democracy and it's more of a western government. I get it.
00:30:19
Um, but what do you think? The the the country comes out and somebody officially says, "Okay, let me tell you
00:30:24
what was going on." Do you think the American public can handle it? >> I think they either way now deserve to
00:30:32
know the truth. Whether they can handle it or not is probably secondary to whether they I
00:30:39
think people need to know the truth. We've I think like the problem is people
00:30:42
have been like partially traumatized by all of this stuff and so now I think the
00:30:46
remedy is full transparency. >> I agree and by the way uh this is close uh because we we got a lot of
00:30:53
information whereas you know 5 weeks ago or or eight weeks ago people were saying
00:30:58
oh there's nothing more that's it that's all there is. I mean, this is a big step
00:31:02
and I think it's a big step as big a step toward transparency as uh probably
00:31:08
as I've seen in my lifetime by a government. The exception would be if it's not a government what Elon did
00:31:14
after buying Twitter, the release of the Twitter files. That was a very impressive thing of letting three
00:31:20
journalists come in and just go through everything. I think it would be awesome if the US government ever, Governments
00:31:27
don't do this very often, but if they ever said, "Okay, everybody, put on your
00:31:30
seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly what happened with the JFK assassination
00:31:34
or exactly what happened with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Senator Robert F. Kennedy, when he ran
00:31:39
for president." There are some examples of this in US history where it feels
00:31:43
like after about 25 years, we'll start telling the truth about something. 50
00:31:48
years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to uh to the FDA and they said, "Look, our
00:31:54
baby powder, you know, that stuff that you put on the baby and you breathe and the mother breathes. Well, it's got
00:32:00
asbestous in it and it causes cancer." And the FDA said, "Well, thanks for
00:32:04
bringing this to our attention. We'll begin to study how much asbestous is an
00:32:07
allowable amount." Now, they never considered zero, which is what I'd want
00:32:11
on my baby or you'd want on your baby. and they began to study and then they
00:32:14
studied for a while and they studied for a while and lo and behold 40 years had gone by and they hadn't come out with a
00:32:20
ruling to say there shouldn't be any asbestous in in Johnson and Johnson baby
00:32:25
powder when did they come out with that ruling by the way last year end of 2024 after 52 years. So at the beginning the
00:32:35
government is saying asbestous no what are you talking about Agent Orange the same story Agent Orange material used in
00:32:42
Vietnam for defoliation uh hurt people killed people and caused birth defects in their kids including American
00:32:49
soldiers lots of them the government knew it they had tested it on 40 lab mice and lab mice don't have a good life
00:32:57
generally anyway they don't have good life expectancy but in this case 38 died
00:33:01
within 5 days what the government do with that information? Oh, put that in a top secret file and get rid of that. And
00:33:07
then it sits for a long, long time and the Institute of Medicine says, "Agent
00:33:12
Orange hurting people. What are you talking about?" No. And they lie and they lie and they lie and then finally
00:33:18
20 25 years later, okay, yeah, sorry, we were wrong. It does it does cause birth
00:33:23
defects. You see that same story with uh breast implants, silicone breast implants. You see that same story with
00:33:29
uh baby formula uh with baby food which has arsenic in it. I don't want any arsenic in baby food but deny deny deny
00:33:38
deny and we'll see it with mass vaccination because after some years there will be okay yes there is a good
00:33:45
chance that it causes myocarditis already been admitted by the way pericarditis uh cancer in young people
00:33:52
it it was a bad product sorry but they won't do it a year away from a thing and
00:33:57
they obviously as we can see every day they won't do it five years away it's
00:34:01
very easy to see and to locate when the US government or any power center. This is I'm an American. I'm all for America.
00:34:08
But all power centers in human history uh lie. Knowing that they are lying does not tell you the truth, however. Meaning
00:34:16
knowing that Oswald did not act alone as a shooter from the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository, if he was a
00:34:23
shooter at all. Knowing that does not tell you who was the shooter. So often the best we can get in our skepticism is
00:34:31
to know that we are not being told the truth. When I grew up, I felt I feel like I was very naive to the nature of
00:34:37
how the world really operates. And the more I've done podcasts and frankly, you
00:34:41
know, you you you get invited to interesting things and you meet like rich people and famous people and
00:34:45
billionaires. And I went to Davos this year, which I think people think makes me some kind of like I don't know, I
00:34:50
wasn't if there was if the Illuminati at Davos, they didn't invite me into that
00:34:53
room. But I got to like I got to see like really powerful people and world leaders and all those kinds of things.
00:34:57
And I've sat here and interviewed so many CIA spies and I've learned that
00:35:01
there are things going on out of plain sight. So the version of reality that the average person has as they go
00:35:09
through their life, how has the work you've done over the last several decades of your career shifted your
00:35:14
belief about the version of reality that actually exists? Like how how are they different?
00:35:19
>> So I I can I can answer it easily because I was just like you. I would say
00:35:22
I was naive. And in fact, by the way, I want to quickly acknowledge that I'm
00:35:26
probably naive today, even with what you've heard, because there may be a level above the level above the level
00:35:31
above that that I'm not seeing or I'm choosing not to see. I can tell you the
00:35:36
exact evolution for me, not dissimilar to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I believe the courts will always come up
00:35:43
with a fair decision. I believe that the IRS will only collect uh money and destroy people with good reason, and
00:35:50
they won't do it with bad reason. I believed everything and the a lot of it right up until co by the way right up
00:35:56
until seeing what went on with both mass vaccination and the the mass control through fear here's what I want to tell
00:36:03
you I've learned it's not that um unusual I think I think it's easy to to
00:36:10
embrace which is that are human beings the same as they were a thousand years ago are human beings the same as they
00:36:17
were in Caesar's time what did Caesar do by the way pick a a Roman emperor. Whatever the [ __ ] they wanted to do,
00:36:26
they had sex with who and what they wanted. 8 years old, 10 years old, boy, girl, whatever it may be. Even in King
00:36:32
Farooq's time in Egypt, one of the last kings of of Egypt, if you were a house
00:36:36
guest, they'd say to you, you know what? We're going to have dinner at 6. We can
00:36:39
send somebody to your room. Do you want a young boy or a young girl? No shame to
00:36:43
it. No problem whatsoever. The rich and powerful people like the ones you were describing at Davos often go from, "I
00:36:51
already have all the money. I've already had all the fame. I've already had all
00:36:54
the influence. What do I want to do now?" And sometimes they want to do forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a
00:37:01
girl in an apartment. These are easy, right? Uh, cheat on my wife. These are easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not
00:37:09
getting so easy anymore, but I've done all the other stuff. And that's what the
00:37:13
Epstein piece appeals to, which is the forbidden. I want to be very concise in in answering this question about what
00:37:20
changed uh in terms of my view, how I've gotten, you know, started where I started. First of all, I worked in
00:37:25
government, worked in the Reagan administration. I lied. I did things that were lies that were deceitful
00:37:30
several times in my career. Uh I can give you examples in a minute if you want, but uh you know to to make a
00:37:36
prosecution work. I I reached a bit uh to get somebody some bad guy who was trying to kill a client uh you know uh
00:37:43
prosecuted or or in in custody for a longer period of time. Um I was in many meetings where the questions were this
00:37:51
thing happened not how shall we tell the public but what shall we tell the public? How shall we spin this thing?
00:37:59
This is the norm in every corporate uh boardroom in America. It's not, oh, there's there's a cancer causing
00:38:07
asbestous in the baby powder. I guess we better let everybody know. That's not
00:38:10
the meeting. The meeting is, let's notify the FDA and say it's under study.
00:38:15
And so if we get asked, we'll get get through this thing. Who goes to jail, by
00:38:19
the way, in these corporations for the [ __ ] they do, opioids, etc. My god, a 100,000 people dying from heart attacks
00:38:25
from from a pain pill, for example. Uh Vio for God's sake. Uh the I mean it's
00:38:32
it's unbelievable and nobody gets in trouble, right? Companies are fined. Do
00:38:37
you know what the fines mean to these companies? In in that new book I gave you, Forbidden Facts, I I lay out what
00:38:42
all the pharma companies have been fined criminally, what it cost them and what they made nonetheless, right? And of
00:38:49
course they made the right decision because financially they they did very well. But I want to get to the concise
00:38:54
part. Look at world history as a pie chart, right? The entire thing is tyranny as a government method, as a
00:39:03
control method. Just a tiny sliver is uh representative democracy. A little bit starting in Greece, uh Western Europe,
00:39:11
the United States, tiny sliver. So our norm, Stephen, is tyranny. That is the norm for human beings. And what happens
00:39:19
to that tiny sliver that I'm describing? That tiny sliver always moves toward
00:39:23
totalitarianism. >> What does that mean? It means that the the representative democracy we have
00:39:28
let's say in the UK which is pretty stressed right now in terms of of freedom of speech or in the United
00:39:35
States moves toward totalitarianism in that it says it starts with we pass a law and if you know the the US
00:39:43
constitution says if there isn't a law prohibiting it you can do it and for government it says if there isn't a law
00:39:52
allowing it you cannot do it that's the US constitute itution. That's the US
00:39:56
method. Well, look what it's become. A law gets passed and then regulators, unelected officials, go [ __ ] nuts on
00:40:05
interpreting that law the way they want to and applying it the way they want to.
00:40:09
And so the the it moves toward totalitarianism. 40,000 new laws passed in the United States every year. How
00:40:16
many rescended? Almost none. >> So where are we now? here in the United States where we both
00:40:22
asked that or in the UK where are we in the arc of history because it kind of does seem to move in sort of cycles
00:40:28
>> now the we if you're talking about where are we now like western society or the
00:40:32
US empire in decline and first of all is it an empire obviously right we have 760
00:40:41
military bases overseas 760 we have a larger budget for what we call defense now called war since Trump has changed
00:40:50
the name to Department of War more accurately. Um, we have a larger budget than every other country in the world
00:40:58
combined for military spending. How many overseas bases does China have? I think
00:41:03
it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's all lovely. I'm just saying they have a
00:41:07
different method. They have a method closer to what we had in the 60s, which was to come in with with beneficial
00:41:12
help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc. So, we're an empire and we're an empire
00:41:17
in decline. And a moment ago when I said that that tyranny is the normal state of
00:41:22
affairs for uh how people are governed. How is it exercised? Through fear. Always through fear. Fear is the method
00:41:31
that causes division. And division is the fuel of power. Meaning you want the population to be divided. You want the
00:41:39
left and the right. You want the the uh Trumpers and the and the and the Democrats and the forever Trumpers and
00:41:45
the never Trumpers. Division is the fuel that all world leaders relish. I give you the example in the cleanest terms.
00:41:54
The king and the queen look over the castle wall and when they see their subjects fighting, they high-five each
00:42:02
other because if the if they're fighting with each other, they're not coming over
00:42:07
the wall. And there's always a wall. And but if they're not fighting with each
00:42:11
other, that's a big problem because then they're coming over the wall because
00:42:15
everybody knows in their heart, wait a minute, these [ __ ] are living in absolute luxury while I don't I can't
00:42:22
afford to feed my kids. They their their motorcades and today and in those days they're, you know, beautiful ornate uh
00:42:31
wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go by and splatter mud on me in the street.
00:42:37
What really is the difference? I mean, royalty is such a [ __ ] scam. >> So, what happens to the Western world if
00:42:43
we're in a declining empire? >> I give you the the optimistic version because I have a dear friend happens to
00:42:49
live in Cape Town who helps me with this sometimes because like anybody when I look a lot at uh at at what happens, I
00:42:58
can get discouraged. I can get cynical. It's not a good place to live. I think
00:43:02
uh Tony maybe even he said it on your show Tony Robbins which is uh you know that what you focus on will determine uh
00:43:09
the quality of your life. So I can focus on the pharma companies and all the [ __ ]
00:43:13
they're doing or I can focus on on the beauty of of nature and spend more time
00:43:17
in nature and spend more time with my kids etc. So my optimistic answer which comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in
00:43:24
in Cape Town is that even if empires decay and and social decay is is outside this studio. It's in London. It's in New
00:43:35
York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in Seattle. It's in Portland. It's
00:43:37
unavoidable. Take a drive in Los Angeles. You know it. Every freeway on-ramp, not some. Every single one of
00:43:45
them has tents underneath it with people living there. That is not good news. And
00:43:50
so, but here's the good news part of it. The optimistic part of it is that survival and thriving always prevails
00:43:57
and it does not rely on these systems. Meaning, you are who you are as a in the spiritual sense or or in the scientific
00:44:05
sense, whatever way you want to look at yourself as a as a collection of energy that doesn't need that body by the way,
00:44:11
right? The energy doesn't go anywhere when that body is done. Uh meaning it's
00:44:15
the energy is still there. It's not destructible. And uh so it's indestructible. So um you are this this
00:44:22
being this awareness this consciousness. And if around us when we go outside here
00:44:28
today all the buildings are gone and and social decay has accelerated are we going to be okay? And the answer is yes.
00:44:35
What happens now? We're living in the forest and now I say Stephen you're
00:44:39
pretty good at carpentry right? Come join us. And you say you're good at planting sweet potatoes. We need some of
00:44:45
that. Let's do that. and small populations of people begin again, commence again, even after nuclear war,
00:44:53
after a variety of things. And I know it's crazy to some people, but I take my
00:44:58
my hope and my optimism from that fact, which is that it doesn't rely upon the
00:45:05
electricity working. It doesn't rely upon the plumbing working and the sewage
00:45:10
system working. And eventually there's enough of the earth, natural earth, for
00:45:15
us to do what has happened before, which is start again. Give you a very fast aspect of this. Thousand years ago,
00:45:22
there's a thousand little governments. There's shoguns in Japan. There's
00:45:27
villages. There's a guy has 300 people and he's the chief. Then it becomes what
00:45:32
it was in your life and my life, which is about 190 countries. But those 190 countries are really about five power
00:45:39
centers, right? There's NATO, there's there's Brexit, there's the the oil
00:45:45
producing countries. And eventually that five power centers will come to two power centers. The West, US, and China
00:45:54
is my prediction, but it'll be somebody else's prediction. Can do it differently. And then those two [ __ ]
00:45:58
are standing in a room together. And one has to kill the other. That's the course
00:46:02
of history. That's how it goes. That's how it goes in every geographical area
00:46:07
in history, which is we've got 30 villages and if I can find your village, we'll take the women, we'll take the
00:46:12
children, and we'll kill the men. And it's just a matter of math. How many of
00:46:17
there are of you and how many are there of of our group? It's I think it's
00:46:21
somewhat inconceivable especially for people of my generation to think that the US is at all at some point going to
00:46:26
be at war with China because we've never you know we never experienced a world
00:46:31
war but because the stakes are now so high with nuclear weapons a war theoretically wouldn't be like previous
00:46:37
wars it would be catastrophic. >> So it's it's unimaginable. Some people
00:46:42
say now nuclear wars have sorry nuclear weapons have now stopped us from getting
00:46:47
into World War II as easily and therefore it won't happen. >> Yes. Some people believe in that general
00:46:51
concept of mutually assured destruction which is that neither side will will do it. But you said it's almost impossible
00:46:57
for you to imagine or words to that effect. Um uh I want to help you uh with that imagining and it goes like this. We
00:47:06
are currently at war with Russia. We are not supporting the the war in Ukraine only. We are at war with Russia because
00:47:14
we are providing satellite information, electronic warfare strategies, drone strategies, providing targeting
00:47:22
information, and that is war today. That is war. War is not just the guys on the
00:47:29
battlefield with rifles. That's the low-end element. The high-end element is
00:47:34
supersonic missiles, which Russia has, and the high-end element is intel and satellite technology. and the wide
00:47:42
variety of things that are going on, some of which aren't even in the news, by the way, that go on in Russia and
00:47:47
they say, "Oh shit." Uh, or that go on in Ukraine and they say, "Oh [ __ ] the
00:47:51
Russians have figured out that thing." But the US is so far beyond other countries in the world in terms of
00:47:57
technology. And so that is war with Russia. And you could say that our war with North Vietnam was war with China.
00:48:05
But now there's just no question about it. So that was a long answer, Stephen,
00:48:10
to say I want to get you your imagination closer. We're already at war with Russia.
00:48:16
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Flow is an app that you can get on your computer and on your phone on all your devices and it allows you to speak to
00:49:32
your technology. So, instead of me writing out an email, I click one button on my phone and I can just speak the
00:49:37
email into existence and it uses AI to clean up what I was saying. And then when I'm done, I just hit this one
00:49:42
button here and the whole email is written for me. And it's saving me so much time in a day because Whisper
00:49:49
learns how I write. So on WhatsApp, it knows how I am a little bit more casual. On email, a little bit more
00:49:53
professional. And also, there's this really interesting thing they've just
00:49:56
done. I can create little phrases to automatically do the work for me. I can just say Jack's LinkedIn and it copies
00:50:01
Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because it knows who Jack is in my life. This is
00:50:05
saving me a huge amount of time. This company is growing like absolute crazy. And this is why I invested in the
00:50:10
business and why they're now a sponsor of this show. And Whisflow is frankly
00:50:12
becoming the worstkept secret in business, productivity, and entrepreneurship. Check it out now at
00:50:18
whisperflow spelled w i s p r f l o w.ai/ Steven. It will be a game changer for you.
00:50:27
Speaking of crazy weapons, I was um I was reading about a story where you did a a tour with the CIA and they showed
00:50:33
you a mechanical dragonfly. >> Yeah. >> With a battery. What What did they show
00:50:38
you? >> Well, I've given a I've had a lot to do with with the agency that's been that's
00:50:42
been public over the years. And I was giving a talk and then afterwards they took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They
00:50:49
showed me a lot of things. Oh, here's the helmet that was worn by that pilot
00:50:52
who was shot down over Russia named Powers. all kinds of interesting memorabilia and one of them was a little
00:50:58
dragonfly the size of a dragonfly and it was um mechanical and I looked at it real closely and thought wow that that's
00:51:06
really fantastic it's very interesting and he said you don't have any questions
00:51:09
at all I said no I mean I I get it and he said why don't you ask me when it was
00:51:14
built U and I said okay when was it built 1967 in 1967 before we had any miniaturaturized electronics or motoriis
00:51:25
ization. The CIA had built that little thing and uh and it was a a little camera that would fly around in here as
00:51:31
a dragonfly and then uh and then you know fly home and I don't know how many
00:51:36
pictures it held but it's an interesting piece I want to share with you about AI
00:51:41
which is people wonder you know how sophisticated is AI and and where is it my belief is that everything we have
00:51:49
access to like AI we probably have something that the US intelligence had 10 years ago. We're probably dealing
00:51:57
with something quite old already. >> I'm just looking at the a picture of
00:52:01
this dragon. >> Oh, I didn't even know it was public. >> Um, this
00:52:04
>> that's the [ __ ] There he is. >> This little thing here. >> Yeah.
00:52:08
>> And you know, this was made, as you say, what 50 years ago. So, one can only
00:52:12
imagine the type of technology they have now. >> Oh, of course. >> I mean, they pro they don't even need to
00:52:16
fly a dragonfly in because we have all these electronic devices. >> Of course, they can they can turn on our
00:52:21
devices. probably your watch if it's a an Apple watch but certainly your phone
00:52:26
uh and u yeah uh the we are participating in I won't even call it an experiment but a process that you read
00:52:35
1984 I'm sure and most of your audience did I was very heartened during the beginning of co that 1984 became the
00:52:44
17th bestselling book in the world in the English language >> telling me ah people are paying
00:52:50
attention they see that what they're experiencing here has a degree of 1984 to it. I think all science fiction
00:52:57
stories come true. I really do. I see it time after time. What advice would you give to my listeners about how to
00:53:04
navigate in the world we're living in today, you know, to avoid risk, threat,
00:53:09
you know, whether that's of our soft tissue as you said or just with our privacy or lives generally. Like where
00:53:13
does the advice start? You said you raised 10 kids. >> Yeah. >> What advice are you giving to your 10
00:53:17
kids? Uh well they they all know that their dad is a big proponent uh and and my first book which is still a a very uh
00:53:27
big book the gift of fear that book is I think still the bestselling book in the
00:53:31
world on violence after 25 years and um that book is all about intuition and personal responsibility. So the very
00:53:40
first thing I would say to your listeners, to you to remind myself as well is that human beings did not get
00:53:47
the biggest claws or the biggest teeth or the biggest muscles. We got the biggest brains relative to our size. And
00:53:54
the nuclear defense system that all human beings have is intuition. Much different from logic. Intuition, the
00:54:01
root of it, by the way, I learned when I was writing that book, is in tear, which
00:54:06
means to guard and to protect. So intuition when you think about it, oh, I just have a feeling I should go back to
00:54:11
the apartment and doublech checkck such and such. Did I leave the fire on on the
00:54:14
pot? And you go back and you open the the door and you didn't leave the fire
00:54:19
on the pot, but something else will always be going on that makes you glad you came back. I believe that intuition
00:54:26
is always right in at least two ways. One, it always has your best interest at heart. It's not [ __ ] with you. It's
00:54:33
giving you real information that's valuable. And and number two, uh it's
00:54:38
always based on something. And so our journey is to figure out when I have an intuitive feeling like do this show with
00:54:45
you, who knows why, but when I have that intuitive feeling, and by the way, I don't do most shows. I don't know what
00:54:51
the reason is. I don't know what it'll be. I mean, I can make up one with
00:54:54
logic, right? I like that guy. I learned a lot from his shows. I can create a case. I can make a case for anything.
00:55:00
But if it's just based on what I feel and everything you've succeeded at and
00:55:05
accomplished was based on what you felt. It was based on intuition. In America, in the West, we think we're doing it by
00:55:11
logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint presentation and I say to the board, "Here's the reason. Here's why, and
00:55:17
here's the percentages." And they say, "Oh, good." The board at corporations in
00:55:22
America would actually prefer that I use logic even if I'm wrong instead of using
00:55:27
intuition even if I'm right. So when I say to you, no, I just think it's the
00:55:31
right thing to do. I I think it'd be smart. I think it'll be it'll really
00:55:34
work out like something like Amazon Prime that people opposed and then it's like 175 million people just in America
00:55:42
are using it. Big success. Intuitive process, not a not a logic process. Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A
00:55:51
B C D. Intuition does A to Z instantly. And you don't know why. It's knowing
00:55:58
without knowing why. I don't feel good about that person. I'm I'm gonna back I
00:56:02
I said I was going to make this business deal. I'm backing out of it. I said I
00:56:05
was going to show up to that thing. I'm calling and cancelling. And by the way,
00:56:08
cancelling one of my favorite things. I recommend it to everybody. I recommend cancelling and postponing to everybody I
00:56:14
know. You are not obligated to keep your plans. You made a plan 3 months ago and
00:56:19
you don't know who you'll even be or if you or them or anybody will even be
00:56:23
alive 3 months from now. There's nothing wrong with cancelling. Now I don't do it
00:56:27
rudely by the way but just to finish on you know sort of what your listen your your viewers uh and listeners can do is
00:56:33
that is to really fall in love with intuition and to learn the way you communicate with yourself. The there's
00:56:39
signals from intuition. Curiosity you just wonder something. Suspicion worry can even be a signal of intuition.
00:56:49
Um but the biggest one is true fear. When you feel true fearh I don't want to
00:56:54
do this. I wanted to ask you a question about this. I met with Magnus Carlson who is the arguably the best chess
00:57:00
player in the world. And I met with him after spending some time in Cape Town writing about gut instinct and
00:57:05
intuition, all these kinds of things. And one of the things that I learned through my writing was that in in many
00:57:11
cases when someone has really well-trained intuition, their first thought is the right thought. And
00:57:18
actually, if you give them longer to think about the problem, they make a worse decision. So when I met Magnus
00:57:22
Carlson as a as the number one chess player in the world backstage, we were both on stage together. I said to him, I
00:57:28
said, "Listen, I got a question to ask you. Do you basically now just run off
00:57:32
intuition or do you think?" And he said, "My first thought is nearly always
00:57:35
right." So actually, I spend the other time just confirming the first sort of
00:57:40
intuition that I had. And actually, I was telling him about a dodgeball game where they got dodgeball players,
00:57:48
professional dodgeball players, to look at a frozen image of a dodgeball game and said, "Where would you throw the
00:57:52
ball?" >> And when they gave them little time to decide, they made a better decision.
00:57:57
When they just went with their first gut instinct, they made a better decision. They unfroze it and it was the right
00:58:01
throw. If they gave them longer, >> they made the worst decision. And the the sort of caveat and I guess the
00:58:07
question for you is it appeared to me that you almost have to train the intuition. Like areas in our life where
00:58:12
we've got multiple reps and pattern recognition, our intuition is valuable. But then in other areas of our life
00:58:17
where we haven't trained the muscle yet, we can make bad decisions. One such
00:58:22
example would just be like the first time you start hiring people. >> You don't have a trained intuition yet.
00:58:27
So you go, "Yeah, she seems nice." But then you get I'm probably been hiring
00:58:30
thousands of people for 15 years now and I get you know I get an intuition. So do
00:58:36
you have to train your intuition? >> Well I think it happens automatically as
00:58:39
you as you live life that new distinctions are added. Um but I also believe that uh it is a natural
00:58:47
resource. I could think of it in a spiritual sense. It's very hard to figure out why we feel a certain way and
00:58:54
we do what what Magnus said which is we get our answer and then we backtrack and
00:58:58
see if it fits. Right. I think the training that's necessary, Stephen, is not the training to uh improve your
00:59:05
intuition. Uh but rather the training to listen to it and to not interrogate it and to not prosecute it. Because I'll
00:59:13
give you an example. A woman is working late at night in a in an office building
00:59:17
like this. She's on the 10th floor. She's leaving. She pushes the button for
00:59:20
the elevator. The elevator door opens up. Inside the elevator is a man who causes her fear. She doesn't like it for
00:59:29
whatever reason. Obviously, she has no opportunity yet to assess all the issues. What's he dressed like? What's
00:59:36
he look like? What did I hear 3 weeks ago about a guy who wore a blue cap and t-shirt and she doesn't have any time
00:59:42
for her first reaction was like that. What does she do? Most women, they get into a steel soundproof chamber
00:59:51
with someone they're afraid of. And there's not another animal in nature
00:59:55
that will do it. Now, why does she do it? Because the thought comes, oh, I don't want him to think I'm a racist
01:00:02
because he's Hispanic or I don't want to be that kind of person or I don't want
01:00:07
this reality to be true, so I'm going to act like it's not true. Right? And what
01:00:13
I say is let the door close in his face. No problem. If you've got the signal, uh
01:00:20
that's a lowcost decision. Wait for the next elevator. Right? That's a very
01:00:23
lowcost issue. Now, there are so many examples of this in my work where I interviewed people who had been
01:00:30
victimized. And time after time, they would tell me, I knew when I walked into that underground parking lot that that
01:00:37
was the same car that I'd seen earlier. I knew when I met that guy such and such. In fact, there's a beautiful a
01:00:43
woman who wrote me the most beautiful thing. I I think it's in in Gift of Fear
01:00:48
or or it's in one of the subsequent books. And she said that she would look at her lifelong diary. She'd kept a
01:00:53
lifelong diary and she looked back at it and it would say met this guy um feel a
01:00:59
little queasy about him, not so sure, dated him, married him. And then she what she wrote
01:01:06
to me was she said again and again I could see there it was in my diary listen to this the ending embedded in
01:01:14
the beginning and so what I encourage people to do going to your original answer is how people can be safer is
01:01:21
listen to their intuition know that its function is to protect you that's what
01:01:25
it's doing when I was reading about your work on intuition and your perspective
01:01:29
on it I it got me thinking about people in my life that I >> have to get rid of tomorrow
01:01:35
Well, actually that I have you know that little alarm bell in your head when you
01:01:39
have you have a little alarm bell intuition like I don't know what the answer is but I feel like something
01:01:44
isn't right >> and that little alarm bell in my head I'm like so what do I do about that? And
01:01:48
I think there was one particular example I was thinking of where I was getting this little vibe from someone that
01:01:54
something was just off. And then 3 months later, we were at this event and they started opening up about their
01:02:03
childhood. And in the course of opening up about their childhood, I learned something
01:02:08
about their mother and something their mother used to do to them. >> And they were talking to someone else
01:02:14
about this behavior that it's created in them. M >> it suddenly all made sense. That thing
01:02:19
that was giving me was making me feel like the vibe was off. I think now is because of something from their
01:02:25
childhood that I didn't actually know which meant they have this behavior which will make you feel a little bit
01:02:29
uncomfortable. >> And in that moment and with I was thinking about this example before you
01:02:34
arrived cuz I was like in that case my my intuition told me something but I didn't know what it was telling me. I
01:02:39
imagine a lot of people have that. They have a vibe of someone something's not
01:02:42
quite right and they're interpreting it to mean X when it could be Y. >> Yes. Sometimes there's a very nice like
01:02:48
in my life and I suspect in yours too, there's often a very straight line between certain childhood experiences
01:02:56
and what we ultimately do. In my case, a very easy one is there was fear. I then
01:03:02
come to have a deep understanding of fear, both sides of it. uh and and and some compassion for it and some uh uh
01:03:10
insight and I I then study it. There was violence uh in my childhood. And so I now come now it's so long ago that I'm
01:03:19
71. So my childhood is so long ago now that it doesn't have a a grip on my throat like it did for a lot of my life
01:03:26
where the narrative was very very important to me and the narrative of my childhood was important. Go ahead. You
01:03:32
can ask question. I was going to probably give people the context on your childhood.
01:03:36
>> Oh, uh, you or me. I'll do it. Okay, good. Yeah, my childhood. Damn it. I'll
01:03:40
I'll tell them. Uh, so yeah, a very, you know, very difficult time. My mother was
01:03:44
a heroin addict. Uh, she was, uh, quite violent. She was very troubled. She committed suicide when she was, uh, 39
01:03:52
years old and I was 16. And that was a a kind of failure for me because I considered it my job to to get us all
01:03:58
through this drama alive. Um, she shot my stepfather in front of me. Uh, a lot of in that house that we lived in, I
01:04:06
think there I I saw the house a few months ago, by the way. I think there are nine bullets in the walls and floor
01:04:12
of that house uh that I can account for, probably still there. And so, while I'm
01:04:17
describing this to you dispassionately, uh, it's because of two things. The distance in terms of time, but most of
01:04:25
all because of healing. And the the I want to give you my definition of healing in this context. My definition
01:04:32
of healing for all of us is when we stop using any of our energy to manage the past. And this gives us all of our
01:04:42
energy in the present moment. And so what do I mean using energy to manage the past? Well, if I'm keeping that
01:04:47
story going and I'm saying to my wife, well, because my mama did this, this is
01:04:52
why I feel such and such. which I went through times in my life when when those things were much closer to me. Today, I
01:04:58
feel like I'm not using any of my energy to manage the past. The the narrative I
01:05:03
told you this whole series of of dramas happened. And anytime you hear about a parent or or anybody in somebody's life
01:05:10
committing suicide, we often think, "Oh, what a terrible experience that must
01:05:14
have been." What you really ought to think when you hear about somebody committing suicide is, "Oh, what a
01:05:20
series of terrible experiences there must have been leading up to that." And
01:05:23
I want to tell you real quickly that I had a a couple of dreams that my mother was in that were particularly powerful.
01:05:29
And I offered this to the audience to know that dream experiences are sometimes all you're going to get.
01:05:35
Right? Because my mother died when I was 16. So I don't have an opportunity to
01:05:39
sit across the table with her and say, "What were you thinking when you such
01:05:42
and such and what was going on in your life when such and such?" And and but in
01:05:46
a dream, she came to me once and I asked her, "Why were you so cruel to me?" And
01:05:50
she was totally perplexed and she said to me, "Cruel to you, I was preparing
01:05:55
you for this extraordinary life." And I think that's true. I think that's what happened is that for
01:06:04
you, whatever your experience was, for Tony Robbins, who we talked about earlier, what his experience was, it
01:06:10
took those experiences. You take away those experiences and you don't have someone who grows up wanting nothing
01:06:16
more than to write these books for free and sell them for free and get them published for free like Forbidden Facts,
01:06:22
the current book, in order to help people deal with these issues of skepticism, of fear, etc. You don't get
01:06:29
somebody doing what I do. Uh where my ambition is long gone. My ambition for more more anything, more money, more
01:06:38
houses. Well, houses I might still slip on, but now it's about service to other
01:06:43
people. Wasn't always, but it was service to other people because I believe that public life, it includes
01:06:49
you. If all you do is give me a bad example, that's service. If you give me a good example, that's a prettier form
01:06:54
of service. It's a maybe it's a nicer job you got, but ultimately all of it is
01:06:59
service. Everything that we can observe in of people in public life and people in our private lives. It's all service.
01:07:06
You know, I remember a friend of mine telling me he went back home for Thanksgiving and he saw his whole family
01:07:11
and he said he learned to only stay for one day. He said because all the [ __ ] happened on the second day with his
01:07:18
family if he stayed for two days. And he also learned to stay in a hotel. I said,
01:07:22
"Are you staying at home?" He said, "Oh, [ __ ] No, never never stay at home.
01:07:26
Because here was this group of people. But what he told me that was interesting is he said, "Ah, Aunt Charlene, you
01:07:32
taught me to speak more quietly because you talk so [ __ ] loud." And he says,
01:07:37
"Uncle Carlo, you you taught me to be more gentle because, man, you're rough
01:07:43
in everything you do. Throw the glasses around and the way you engage. Dad, you taught me to listen to people because
01:07:50
you never [ __ ] listen to a thing I said even today. Isn't it a beautiful way of looking at it? Basically, these
01:07:56
were the teachers in in our lives. For my mother, 100% uh the I'm I'm so far
01:08:03
past forgiveness and so far into gratitude for the pieces that were wonderful. And by the way, this is a
01:08:10
suffering person, right? This is a person that, you know, that charities are for and and social welfare is for.
01:08:18
Uh, you know, a woman with three kids and no job and a heroin addict for God's
01:08:22
sake. That's not an easy job. Uh, and and other drugs too, by the way, which
01:08:27
helped me as I grew up to be skeptical of pharma because some of the pills she took, one
01:08:32
of them called Doradin, has now been taken off the market for causing what? Psychosis,
01:08:38
which explains a lot of her craziness. And so all of this this, you know, teaching that it depends what you do
01:08:46
with it. Meaning you we all we all nobody gets out of here alive, right? Everybody's got a story to tell. And I
01:08:52
remember a case where I overvalued my own ability to predict human behavior, which I say, you know, I say in these
01:08:58
books, you can predict human behavior, right? To to drive here today in traffic, I had to predict the behavior
01:09:05
of thousands of people based on just the little movements of the big metal objects around them. You know that guy
01:09:10
who starts to move over into your lane and then he catches himself and goes. You never trust that guy. You always
01:09:15
want to get way behind him or way in front of him. So, we're predicting human
01:09:19
behavior all the time. But I overvalued mine. I thought, "Oh, I'm Mr. Genius
01:09:22
predicting human behavior because I developed these systems of artificial intuition that predict human behavior."
01:09:28
And I was at a meeting and there were a group of people at the meeting and it was going to start in about 5 minutes.
01:09:32
And a few people were comforting one woman who was really sobbing at the end of the table. And I thought to myself
01:09:38
judgmentally, um, why'd she even come to the meeting? I mean, if she can't do the
01:09:41
meeting, like, what's she doing here? And I knew it was a boyfriend issue, right? That's what she's crying about
01:09:46
and they're comforting her. The meeting begins and that woman speaks first and
01:09:51
she says through her tears, "I'm sorry you guys. Uh, I'll do my best at the
01:09:55
meeting, but as many of you know, my husband killed my 12-year-old son 4 days ago."
01:10:03
So my little journey into judgmental prediction was about as wrong as you could be and it was a uh a humbling
01:10:13
experience for me because I would have discounted that person in a moment. That's the other side of of prediction
01:10:19
and intuition, right? You can discount people uh and quickly toss them away. And so you know when you get this
01:10:26
intuitive signal, do we have a responsibility to understand it? Yeah, we have a responsibility to understand
01:10:32
it. How many people have I met who I thought what an [ __ ] that guy is. I don't ever want to talk to that guy
01:10:37
again. And I didn't. My loss. Sometimes it was would have been the greatest person in the world. Uh sometimes it
01:10:43
would have been a great relationship. And now I apply the the George Harrison rule. George Harrison the Beatles which
01:10:50
writes this who writes this unbelievable lyric that's in While My Guitar Gently
01:10:54
Weeps, which is I look at you all and see the love there that's sleeping. We have a brain budget. The way to think
01:11:04
about it is we have a limited amount of energy that we can spend every single day. I'm saying find ways to simplify
01:11:12
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connection. Especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these
01:12:02
conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guest and have those deep, intimate conversations,
01:12:09
this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode,
01:12:15
the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've
01:12:18
turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards
01:12:23
to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the
01:12:28
conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold
01:12:32
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01:12:40
cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description
01:12:45
below. Through your work, you've um been behind the scenes with some of the most
01:12:51
interesting people on planet Earth, most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet Earth. And you get to
01:12:56
see therefore both sides of the fence in a way that most people would never see.
01:13:00
You get to see how they are in the public life and then you get to see them in their private life and often times
01:13:05
you'll get to see them >> during some of the hardest moments of their life.
01:13:09
>> Most of the time. Yeah. >> What have you learned from that exposure?
01:13:14
>> Well, probably a lot. So the I I'll but I'll give a a uh what what answer comes
01:13:20
to me intuitively. When I was a kid and I used to watch television, I believed when I was a kid that the television was
01:13:28
more real than our lives and I learned obviously through my experience that the exact opposite was true, right? The
01:13:36
media world was unreal and our lives were real. And this Stephen is incredibly important today because with
01:13:44
AI and social media and other things, we actually are challenged to know what is
01:13:49
real and what is not real. Did Trump really make that speech or is it an AI film? Did did that really happen or is
01:13:56
is that real what I'm looking at? The cat really did that or is that an AI film? And we are challenged now to
01:14:02
understand and choose I would say what's real and what's not real. That challenge has beauty in it because
01:14:10
it's making for me it's making me question reality itself. In other words, um I'm
01:14:18
questioning what really matters to me and what will I call real? And I'll give
01:14:23
you some examples. I'll call touch real. Hug you. Shake your hand. I'll call that
01:14:31
real. Nature. Time in a park. Time with animals. my time with cats and dogs. Unbelievably important to me because I
01:14:39
trust those [ __ ] right? I believe that cat means business. This is what it's doing. If it wants to be on my
01:14:46
chest purring, it wants to be on my chest purring. And if it doesn't, she's
01:14:49
out of there, right? >> CIA cat. >> And so, and and children are the same
01:14:53
thing. I remember my son's meeting a famous client of mine who, let's say, is
01:14:59
was the richest man in the world, etc. at that moment. and uh and my son at 3 years old, how much money do you have?
01:15:06
Um but it held no offense because it's this little kid. All it can be is real.
01:15:11
There's nothing but real in in a little kid. And so where I think optimistically
01:15:16
about AI, which definitely has some problems for for for the human race for sure. But where I think optimistically
01:15:23
about it is I think it's good for people to question reality because what ultimately is it? What is it? If this is
01:15:31
a simulation, like Elon makes a good argument for, and I think he leans in that direction, by the way, and
01:15:37
sometimes I I do too with him. If it's a simulation, uh, then we want to make it
01:15:42
interesting and and we want to be a bit outside. In in a simulation, we're not
01:15:46
vulnerable, right? The the the spirit, the soul, the energy that animates us um will continue. It's not going anywhere.
01:15:54
And it lets us witness this experience rather than feel victim to it, right? we get to this is a good movie and we
01:16:00
wouldn't go see a movie if we knew the outcome, right? But we but this movie is
01:16:05
really good. And so when I look at AI things and trust me, I don't know about
01:16:09
you, you're younger, so you're you may have better instincts or intuitions for
01:16:13
it, but I genuinely can't tell sometimes. I mean, I send something back to a friend of mine and say, I think
01:16:18
that's [ __ ] I don't think the dog actually jumped up on the top shelf and
01:16:22
did that such and such. I I don't buy it. And then you look at it a few more
01:16:25
times. But this is good for us because what it brings us to is whatever we think is real. Touch, taste, uh uh the
01:16:37
feelings, tears, nature, whatever we think it is, I believe that's where I want to be. That's where I want to spend
01:16:44
my time. >> So there's this theory called the dead internet theory where they think that
01:16:47
because of AI and us being able to make I sent actually sent a video to some of my team members earlier. It's a two and
01:16:52
a half minute video and it's made with one of these AI tools and it it's the
01:16:57
ending of a very famous movie and someone's just changed it and they it's
01:16:59
a kid in their bedroom has made a new ending to the movie. couple of prompts, they've got a new ending to the movie.
01:17:03
And I I was playing this forward, playing this forward and forward and forward. And eventually you get to a
01:17:08
point where bots will be just spraying content at the internet. And in such a world, unless we have these sort of um
01:17:17
retina scanners to confirm that I'm doing the post live, you get to this dead internet theory where like
01:17:23
everything you see is either written by produced by AI. Therefore, wait. Our level of skepticism just raises to the
01:17:30
point that we don't trust anything we're seeing. You're saying that that's
01:17:33
actually a good thing for us because it makes us question what we're seeing again and revert to real things that are
01:17:39
irreplaceably human. >> Yes. I think it's good to I think it's it's spiritually good for us to redefine
01:17:47
reality as opposed to take me back 20 years in my life and possibly yours. What did I believe? everything the
01:17:54
government said, every official narrative. Why wouldn't I believe it? >> Do you think there's any downside to our
01:17:59
lost interest in institutions? >> Well, I have such a negative view of big
01:18:06
centralized institutions. >> Why? Because I think what happens when you a a very good number of people to
01:18:14
live together is about 300. And what I base that on is uh Fiji where I live a lot, villages are about 300 people.
01:18:22
There's a chief who lives with them. He doesn't get special treatment. He's not
01:18:26
carried around in a gold chariot. He's got to eat the same food they do. And he
01:18:31
is generally uh benevolent. And uh because the the beauty of the Fijian village, and I encourage you you to go
01:18:39
and all your your viewers to go. Don't all go on the same day because you'll
01:18:42
[ __ ] up Fiji, but go anyway. Um the the beauty of the Fijian village is that people will be born
01:18:51
and grow up and get married and have children and die all in the same house and all with the same people. That's
01:19:00
fantastic because what they don't get that I get in my life and you get is the
01:19:06
engagement with all these anonymous people that don't matter. Right? The waiter is just a snapshot to me, not a
01:19:12
real person I'm sitting down with. I like to, by the way, really engage with
01:19:15
people uh at the expense of of the friends I'm with very often. I'm really
01:19:19
curious about people. The Uber driver, I'm I'm curious, but I know that the
01:19:25
this is a temporary relationship in the Fijian village. Uh it's not a temporary
01:19:29
relationship. I'll give you a good example on an airplane. You're on a commercial flight somewhere and you've
01:19:34
got a 10-hour flight to overseas to London or something and there's a baby crying and uh you're pissed that the
01:19:41
baby's crying. Some people are. I mean, I I look at this when we used to travel,
01:19:46
my wife and I, and I remember somebody saying when we boarded with my maybe 20-month-old son, "Is that baby going to
01:19:53
cry?" And I said to the woman, "What do you think? It's a it's a 20-month old
01:19:58
baby." But the point is, hey folks, we're together for the next 10 hours.
01:20:02
How do we want to spend this time? We want to spend it hating each other. We want to get too drunk and bug the person
01:20:07
next to you. How do we want to do this? A Fijian village is like that. In fact, a Fijian village is fewer bathrooms than
01:20:12
a 747 and fewer seats than a 747. Fewer people for God's sake, what we get on an
01:20:18
airplane every day. And so I believe in small populations uh for governance. And
01:20:24
I believe in subsidiarity, a word you probably don't know. I only learned it
01:20:28
about a year ago from a dear friend in Cape Town. Subsidiarity means government at the most local possible level. So, if
01:20:35
it's a if it's a an issue regarding building permit, that ought to be city
01:20:38
or county, nothing to do with Washington DC. If it's an issue regarding interstate commerce, okay, maybe we need
01:20:44
a little Washington DC. We need a little state involved. But government at the lo
01:20:49
most local possible level so that I can come over to your house, Stephen, and say, "Why did you not approve my my
01:20:54
building permit?" Or so I can meet you in the restaurant where we see each other every morning, where our kids go
01:20:58
to school together. I don't believe centralized government works. And I think further that centralized
01:21:04
government is our enemy. It is the enemy of of citizens. >> I was thinking about the parallels there
01:21:09
actually for business. >> They get too big. >> Yeah, they get too big. And a lot of
01:21:12
great companies actually break break up divisions and departments and give them autonomy and subsidiar. Can't even say
01:21:18
it. >> Subsidiary. It wasn't easy for me either. >> I nailed it first time. What you're
01:21:20
talking about subsidiary. Subsidiarity. Bing bing. >> Subsidiarity. Yeah. >> And how even in as our company grows,
01:21:27
maybe I should think more about subsidiarity. Well, I'll tell you, my company at its biggest was about a
01:21:33
thousand people and 26 offices around the country, around the world, and I didn't like a thousand people as a
01:21:40
number. I liked where we are now, which is about 600 people and uh and we're
01:21:44
hiring, by the way, so look us up and and come to work. We need we need young people uh who are physically fit and
01:21:50
have good backgrounds, uh meaning they can pass screening. But my point is that I I like to stay in that sweet spot of a
01:21:58
thousand people starts to get too far from the individuals. And when it's small, and I don't know where you are
01:22:04
now in in this in in this podcast organization, but you can walk down the hall and see an employee and say, "Hey,
01:22:13
it seems like you're you're not doing so well. You seem you don't like to joke
01:22:16
anymore. You seem humorless. You seem such and such." In a big organization
01:22:21
while I developed a method for that by the way I'll tell you in a second but in
01:22:24
a big organization you get farther and farther and farther from the human beings. I want to tell you the method we
01:22:29
developed. We have a thing called care. It stands for continuous asking responding and evaluation.
01:22:36
Every day every employee in my company when they log into work gets a question that they answer and I get the
01:22:45
statistical results of that every day. And the questions will be things like uh when do you think you're getting your
01:22:50
next promotion? Uh or um have you experienced or witnessed sexual harassment? Have you
01:22:56
experienced or witnessed discrimination? Why do I do that? Because I want to know, right? That's why you ask. Have
01:23:03
you in bigger companies that use our system like Amazon did developed a system like it that you know you might
01:23:09
ask a question like have you ever seen a firearm in the workplace? An unauthorized firearm. Oh, damn it. We
01:23:14
want to know that information, right? Does your supervisor know your name? Huge question because a supervisor
01:23:21
knowing that question is asked knows everybody's name which is what you want.
01:23:24
You're influencing middle management behavior. But that system we have care is no different than me walking down the
01:23:30
hall and say, "Hey, Stephen, I noticed for the last couple of days you're
01:23:33
keeping your office door closed and you kind of shut down for some reason. What's going on?" You lose that when it
01:23:38
gets too big. And when it gets really too big, like think about government agencies like HHS, the biggest budget in
01:23:45
world history, $1.7 trillion, bigger than the Pentagon, started out at 85,000 employees. Luckily, it's down now. You
01:23:54
You got to be kidding. You're running a a machine. It has nothing to do with
01:23:58
humanity. And and government agencies have nothing to do with humanity. They have to do with process, bureaucracy.
01:24:05
>> We talked about advice. That's kind of where we started on this uh train of
01:24:09
thought that you would give to your children and one of the you know trains we went down was about intuition.
01:24:14
>> Yes. >> Is there anything else that you think was would you know if you if you if this
01:24:19
god forbid was your last day on earth and your children said to you, "Dad, what do I need to know to live a
01:24:25
fulfilling life?" >> Yes. >> Based in the world as we see it today,
01:24:28
what would you what would you say if you could only say one thing? for me and I think it's true for everybody um
01:24:34
contribution to others is a key part of coming to believe that you belong here. Those of us who had a tough time and but
01:24:43
remember I said everybody has a tough time in some way through childhood selflove is often uh missing or is hard
01:24:51
to come by and to believe that you belong here contribution to others is a key thing. The second one you asked for
01:24:58
one but you're getting two. It's a it's a special today a bargain. The second
01:25:02
one was the hardest lesson for me to come to believe and that was that what is right for you is always right for the
01:25:10
other person. Very hard for me to get my head around this one because I thought, well, wait a
01:25:16
minute. I want to break up with this girl who wants to get married and have kids with me. How can my breaking up be
01:25:21
right for the other person? Well, a she gets to be with somebody who actually wants to be with her. she gets to begin
01:25:28
her life now instead of I stay with her till she's 45 and she can't have kids
01:25:32
anymore. So this idea that what's right for you is always right for the other
01:25:36
person. The practical application is that all you need to do, Stephen, is know what's right for you,
01:25:41
>> which is easier said than done. >> It is easier said than done, but because
01:25:45
in my case, what I would do is say, well, what how's this person going to do? When I was younger, I believed
01:25:50
everybody that I fired, for example, which was very few people in my career. I mean, employed a shitload of people,
01:25:55
but I didn't fire very often. Everybody that I fired, I thought they went from
01:25:59
working at this great company that I was the founder of to being on the street homeless and couldn't feed their
01:26:05
families. That's not what happened. They went to other great jobs. If they could
01:26:09
work for GDBA, they had already jumped through so many hoops. They were presentable. They were intelligent. They
01:26:14
were physically fit. They had a a great background. They had integrity that we could see. They had all variety of of
01:26:21
things. And they presented incredibly well because we've got one hell of a screening process. We have a 9-day
01:26:26
nine-day interview, not a 1-hour interview. They live they come and live at our camp for 9 days of an interview
01:26:34
process. They're sleeping in our environment. We're really getting to know them. By the way, it's 12 days now,
01:26:40
but started as 9 days. So now I know if I fire somebody or if they leave, uh, they're going to do fantastic. That that
01:26:47
was a big awakening for me. But this idea that what's right for me is always
01:26:51
right for the other person, what does it do? It frees you to know that the only place I have to go to get the answer to
01:26:57
this question is in here. You don't want me messing around in your brain trying
01:27:02
to figure out what you want, trying to figure out what you believe, trying to figure out what's best for you. I've
01:27:08
hurt more people in my life, trying to figure out what's best for them than I've helped.
01:27:13
>> It is um it is remarkably true. I was just sort of senseing it against people
01:27:18
where in one particular case where I had fired someone and they were very upset about it many many many years ago in a
01:27:24
previous business very upset about it protested you know said some things uh to me and then years later five six 10
01:27:33
years later when I reflect on where they are now and if that was the best thing for them as I kind of assumed it was to
01:27:38
be honest they would say it was the best thing for them I would say it was the best thing for them in hindsight in part
01:27:43
because >> when held in a situation that's not right for them. They're going to suffer
01:27:47
in other ways. >> Yeah. >> Under the under a standard, >> including your resentment.
01:27:51
>> My resentment, a standard they can't meet, goals they can't meet, the
01:27:54
pressure from everybody, the stress when they can't see their job, of course.
01:27:56
>> And yeah, and let them go and they started their own thing. And um less
01:28:01
pressure, lower goals, less expectation. They seem to be much much happier. >> And you Oh, much happier.
01:28:06
>> And you Yeah. That's the Look, God only made you or the universe, whichever word
01:28:10
you want to fit in there, only made you responsible for one person. truly responsible for one person and and
01:28:16
that's you and then that has of course all the ripple effects of what it does
01:28:20
for the rest of the world even our children by the way are we responsible for them certainly not for life right
01:28:26
because in my case I'm an older father my first birth kid I had a bunch of adopted kids a bunch I had eight but my
01:28:33
first uh birth kid uh I was 52 years old and so I'm an older father to my 17-year-old son uh I don't expect to be
01:28:42
around when he's Um, I'll take it if it happens to be that way. But I would be def [ __ ]
01:28:47
crepit by that point. Uh, and I I'd rather probably exit before that. But my
01:28:52
point is the idea that even our children, we will not find the answer. Do I know what's best for my kids? Of
01:29:00
course not. I have a lot of opinions, but uh, you know, do I really know what's best? No. But I know what's best
01:29:06
for me. And and that's really where my responsibility has to end. And Stephen,
01:29:10
you asked me to boil it down to one. I gave you a special today of two. And uh and I want to give you uh the third one
01:29:18
that you haven't asked for. And it's this. Everything you want is downstream.
01:29:24
Everything you want is downstream. Meaning that time when we're swimming against the current and think, oh, if
01:29:30
it's important, it's going to take all this work, etc., etc. There is no
01:29:34
swimming upstream. What? Downstream always wins. Reality always wins. You know, when you swim upstream, you put
01:29:41
enough current there and you're staying in the same place. And so, the times in
01:29:45
my life when I thought it must be this way. It has to be this. This there's a
01:29:48
this is the only way. I was wrong. I was wrong. Including hiring a dear friend of
01:29:54
mine told me the story of hiring a CEO for his company, big company, and and the guy said, "I'll take the job." And
01:30:00
they negotiated everything. And then the guy said, "You know, I'm going to go to
01:30:02
work for for Pepsi Cola, and I'm sorry." And my friend got on an airplane and
01:30:07
flew to the hotel and waited in the lobby. the of the hotel where he knew the guy was, caught him in the lobby and
01:30:12
said, "Don't go to work for them. Go to work for me. I'll change the offer in
01:30:16
the following way. I'll add this equity." And he succeeded and he got the
01:30:20
CEO he wanted. And three weeks later had to fire the [ __ ] So basically, when the whole universe
01:30:28
says no, everything you want is downstream. Now, you probably have some, you tell me, do you have some resistance
01:30:36
to that idea? Um, I would say I can think of examples where I fought for something and it was I fought for a
01:30:44
person or something and it turned out to be a good decision. Should I give you the context?
01:30:50
>> Yeah, I'd love to hear the context. But by the way, that doesn't defeat my
01:30:54
argument because fighting for something is not the same as swimming upstream. You know, swimming upstream is you know
01:31:00
which way this river is going. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense then. >> Yeah. And so the the you ask what I
01:31:06
would tell my kids is that everything you want is downstream. It kind of you know I've been so blessed or lucky
01:31:13
whatever word you want to use or fortunate in my life that my work you've got all these books as examples. I loved
01:31:19
doing it. It wasn't work. I love sometimes it's hard but hard is not the
01:31:25
same as like feeling like I'm just stamping something out in this factory which would be a kind of hell for me I
01:31:30
guess. Uh, I loved I I was doing what I was on the planet to do. I think everybody isn't that lucky.
01:31:38
>> The example I was going to give you actually support >> the story. Yes. Go ahead.
01:31:41
>> Me and my me and my then girlfriend were dating for a year. We had an issue. I've
01:31:45
been very open about this and the newspapers write about it and stuff, but we had an issue with our intimate life
01:31:52
and we couldn't really see a way around it. Broke up. She flew to Bali because we couldn't see
01:32:00
a way to solve the problem. And then I carried on with my life and a year goes past and I'm thinking constantly, I'm
01:32:05
thinking, do you know what? I think actually that was the right person. >> I think I [ __ ] up. I think I should
01:32:09
have maybe in my immaturity I like should have found a way to work through this problem. So I fly across the world
01:32:15
to Bali for 18 hours and I go there to apologize to her for not handling the situation better in a more mature way. I
01:32:23
I apologize. I think there is part of me that's trying to get her back. actually
01:32:26
while we're there she does tell me that in the time we've been apart she's been
01:32:29
with someone else and I take it all very very well I'm very mature and then while
01:32:36
we're there I know she's not trying she's not trying to like sit next to me
01:32:39
so when we go for dinner with our friends she's like sitting two seats down she's like there's no interest in
01:32:43
me anymore >> so I accept it and I tell her I'm going home in in 2 days time thank you so much
01:32:48
for spending time I send her this nice text message and then in those in the 48 hours before my flight
01:32:54
it's like we fell in love with each other again. So, it supports your point because when I apologized, I came with
01:32:59
no agenda and then I said, "I'm leaving." >> In the 48 hours from the point where I
01:33:03
said, "I'm off now." Sent her a nice message. It's like we fell in love
01:33:07
again. She's now my fianceé >> and that's what I don't know. It's been
01:33:11
seven years or something. But it actually goes to show what you said. Now I thought it through cuz I thought
01:33:14
flying was me fighting for something because of the example you gave, but actually
01:33:18
>> it was I apologized and I'd given up. I like stopped fighting. >> That's the best when you when you let it
01:33:24
go. And suddenly and suddenly it happens. Yes, it does fit. Everything you want is downstream. In fact, that
01:33:30
that's not, you know, even getting on a plane is downstream. >> You didn't get on a plane that flies
01:33:35
backwards or has no engines. That's what I'm talking about is when you find
01:33:39
yourself, and I certainly have in my life, find myself doing something that is so difficult to do uh and and so
01:33:47
unrewarding and it feels like I'm trying to swim upstream, which I can tell you
01:33:52
from experience in lots of rivers, some of them in Fiji, it doesn't work. You
01:33:56
you don't get a lot of mileage swimming upstream. >> I was just going to ask cuz you know,
01:33:59
this this was such a smash hit bestselling book. >> Yeah. >> Nationally. And I was just going to ask
01:34:04
you the question, >> why? What is it that resonated with people that made this book so
01:34:10
successful? The gift of fear, survival signals that protect us from violence. What What is it?
01:34:16
>> That's a very good question. I mean, a good question in that it's in that it's
01:34:20
a new question. I'll give you what I what I hope. I think if that book had been about Chinese pottery uh or about
01:34:28
spices or any subject carpentry um it also would have worked well because it had by a number of blessings it had some
01:34:37
core truths in it like you didn't one of the things I'm saying to them is forget
01:34:41
about experts you you don't need an expert to be telling you things that are
01:34:45
in your own body if this story is resonant to you if this experience from all these people that I interviewed is
01:34:51
resonant to you and if that works for then uh you know you'll find value here
01:34:56
and uh there are some practical reasons why it was a bestseller like Oprah doing
01:35:01
it. I mean everybody did it. Time magazine, Newsweek, everybody did big things on the book. Why at that moment
01:35:07
did that work out? I I have a theory which is that a a lot of people in media knew me or knew of me but I never had
01:35:15
done anything public and it it took a lot of courage to do and when I for me I talk about things that were very
01:35:21
personal in that book and uh and in the other books as well and it took a lot of
01:35:26
courage in fact I went and met with two authors beforehand who had told really hard stories about their lives and uh I
01:35:34
didn't know them I just asked for meetings one of them was in DC and uh and and I got some encouragement. I also
01:35:41
remember, by the way, meeting with a group of of law enforcement officials who were at my company for some reason,
01:35:47
and I told them a couple of stories from that book, uh childhood stories, and they were kind of a gasast. Everybody
01:35:54
was like, "Oh, it didn't stimulate any conversation at the table." I knew I was
01:35:59
in a kind of territory that most people run away from. And that too helped me uh
01:36:05
because I thought uh denial, denial, denial, denial, denial all around the table because every cop and every FBI
01:36:12
agent has a story about why they are doing what they're doing just like every
01:36:18
doctor does, just like everybody does. There's a reason that they're doing what
01:36:22
they're doing that usually will be discoverable in uh in childhood. And when they discover it, like who do you
01:36:29
want for example for a heart surgeon? Do you want the heart surgeon whose grandfather died of a heart attack in
01:36:34
his arms when he was 14 years old? Or do you want the one who said heart surgery?
01:36:39
Oh, the earnings look really good on heart surgery. I'll take heart surgery as my major. Uh you know, you want the
01:36:44
one with a with a core uh with a with a story uh a personal story. >> We have a closing tradition where the
01:36:51
last guest leaves a question for the next. And the question left for you, not knowing who they were leaving it for, is
01:36:56
where do you think the origin of your purpose and meaning comes from objectively?
01:37:05
>> Okay, give me 25 minutes of silence. This is I guess it's somewhat of a
01:37:14
spiritual answer uh which is that I believe in I I tend to go with everything is
01:37:24
predetermined meaning down to the smallest tree in the smallest town in the smallest place uh
01:37:32
it's going to be that's how it was going to be. Now, I have a scientific version
01:37:37
of this, which is that if you're I remember one day I was in Fiji and I was swimming in front of my house and the
01:37:44
the water's just 4t deep in front of my house because it's on a reef so you can
01:37:48
walk on it and then you get to the end of the reef, you get to the deep water and I was standing in the in the 4ft
01:37:53
deep water and suddenly a massive rainstorm came just like theop bop, you know, hitting you in the head and then
01:38:00
it stopped immediately and immediately after that this massive school of fish about this big just started jumping out
01:38:07
of the water in front of me and it's noisy. IT'S LIKE as they were going around and they go in
01:38:12
a whole circle around me and then they're and then they're gone. And immediately after this the tide which
01:38:20
was rising, it goes up and down as you know twice a day. Um the tide really got strong where I was standing and it was
01:38:28
coming in as opposed to going out. And so I was really like standing there like this and I was looking around and I
01:38:34
thought, "This better be enough stimulation for you, brother. Like I'd just seen the giant rainstorm and then
01:38:41
the sun, the fish going nuts and then this giant tide thing." And as soon as I
01:38:46
thought that, a whale breached right off the reef, right? And uh and I and I thought, "Holy [ __ ] man. You are seeing
01:38:55
one hell of a movie here." And then I thought, in fact, I dreamed that night
01:39:00
that I was uh as if somebody had typed in, "Show me what it would be like to be
01:39:09
standing on a reef in Fiji." Uh there was no AI then, but to be standing on a
01:39:14
reef in Fiji and have a massive school of fish go jumping up around you, have a, you know, huge storm begin, have it
01:39:21
quickly get sunny, and then see a whale breach in front of you as you're trying
01:39:24
to hold on to the reef is is is, you know, so strong you can barely stand up. Show me what that's like, Google. And
01:39:31
that I Gavin was like the eyes of God, universe, whatever it may be that you could like what is it like to be a
01:39:43
42year-old man who's had this diet this day, this trip out to the reef, this
01:39:49
childhood, this experience? Is it all predetermined? And I do believe it is. And so the answer to that question is I
01:39:57
believe it's out of my hands. I may get the choices uh you know is there free
01:40:02
will something is presented to me go left go right uh I I might get the choice but what is presented to me what
01:40:09
is presented to me is not up to me. >> Are you telling me that life is consciousness trying to understand
01:40:15
itself. Someone said that to me once and it was quite a compelling thought. >> The idea was dropped into my skull so
01:40:21
quickly like it was a journalistic report that said here's the way the world works. something or somebody or
01:40:28
everybody or everything types into Google what it wants to see and occasionally you are the body that it
01:40:37
works through because if the rest of the universe and by the way kind of interesting this very moment we're in
01:40:42
Stephen because that experience I had is now being relayed >> to a few million people courtesy of you
01:40:50
and your question and that question in this podcast. So now you do know a little bit about what it's like to stand
01:40:55
in the water with the the current trying to pull you over and see a whole school
01:41:00
of fish go around you and see a whale breach right in front of you and see this this massive rainstorm come and go
01:41:05
in a matter of minutes. Uh now you get a little piece of that experience. Now do
01:41:09
I think here's the big the punchline. Do I think I created that experience? No
01:41:13
[ __ ] way. I don't. I think it's predetermined. And I think the I said to
01:41:19
you the scientific version is you're gonna ask me this question and that's
01:41:23
the answer you're going to get. That's what I believe based on what I ate
01:41:27
today, based on what I ate 40 years ago, based on childhood, based on who you are
01:41:32
and who I am. That's the answer you're going to get. >> And who left the question
01:41:36
>> and who left it and how their day was and what they ate that day and everything else. I believe in
01:41:41
predetermination. It is um it comes from a teacher of mine in India my best teacher in life Nisarada wrote a book
01:41:48
called I am that recommended to everybody and then his student who's now died uh Romesh Basakar who I got to go
01:41:56
see and spend time with in India who was an important teacher for me who basically said
01:42:02
every day at 9:00 a.m. He had satsang in his house basically. People could come and ask questions. Uh uh and and it was
01:42:08
sort of he he happened to be Indian but it was sort of Buddhist in nature. And somebody said to him, "Well, are you
01:42:13
just saying we're all robots?" And he said, "YES, EXACTLY CORRECT. We're all
01:42:17
robots." And then the person said, "Well, why should I even get out of bed
01:42:20
in the morning?" And he said, "Try it. Try and stay in bed." And he said,
01:42:25
"After a few days, you'll be up and about. You'll be doing something. You'll
01:42:28
be motivated to do something." So um that is my answer to your question which
01:42:34
obviously uh I only heard this second and the answer only came this second. Kevin, thank you. Thank you for opening
01:42:42
my eyes in so many ways. You've written so many of these great books. All of
01:42:46
them I'm going to link below. The newest one here is called Forbidden Facts:
01:42:49
Government Deceit and Suppression about Brain Damage from Childhood Vaccines. There's another book about children
01:42:53
here. Protecting the the gift, keeping children and teenagers safe and parents sane. The Gift of Fear, survival signals
01:42:59
that protect us from violence. >> And I think those are the only three you
01:43:02
need to link. And my reason is these are kind of specialty books >> additions. Okay, fine. So, I'll link
01:43:06
these below for everyone to see. Um, I highly recommend checking all of Gavin's
01:43:10
work work out. Um, and these are going to be in the comment section below if if anyone wants to read more about some of
01:43:16
the things we've touched on. You've touched on all these books today, but if
01:43:18
you want to go deeper on any of these subjects, this is your opportunity to do so. And is there anywhere else people
01:43:22
can go to find you if they're interested in your >> I mean our website is gdba.com and
01:43:28
probably gavand debecker.com works. The website is I don't even solicit new clients. We don't have any marketing or
01:43:34
anything like that. The website is there for one purpose which is attracting candidates for employment because we are
01:43:40
hiring a lot of people all the time. So that's what the website does but there
01:43:44
may be other information there that's valuable for people. I don't know. Well,
01:43:47
if anyone's young and fit and strong and wants to work with Gavin, then um I'll
01:43:51
link the website below as well to see all of the jobs available. Gavin, thank you so much. It's certainly I mean
01:43:55
there's so many things that blow my mind, but one one of the most important things for me is actually just this
01:43:59
lesson about intuition and that even and that to listen to it more and to be more
01:44:06
upfront with people when I my intuition isn't is telling me something >> because you're right. I think we're
01:44:15
we're all very good at um tuning the volume of our intuition down and society
01:44:19
kind of teaches us to gaslight ourselves and double guess. Gavin, thank you. >> Uh thank you too and thanks for what
01:44:24
you're doing. You are one of my teachers as well. Young man, I get to say at 71.
01:44:30
>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what
01:44:34
video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
01:44:38
And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right
01:44:44
now.