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if I'm not drinking or snorting something what the [ __ ] do I actually enjoy doing you know who am I Africa
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Brooke is a speaker a podcast host and she's helped hundreds of thousands of people see the world in a new light
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Africa does not give a [ __ ] and that's why I love her if you're on the left then you're the good person if you're on
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the right then you're the bad person we're hanging out online where these platforms incentivize binary thinking
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are you with us or are you against us there's only so much you can take most
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people didn't like when I said that as a black person I'm not oppressed that there is a very real difference between
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being a victim and making victimhood an identity because if you don't think that
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you're worthy that's always going to be the belief that you feed every single time what became your dark side
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from the age of 14 I was a blackout Drinker that's when I started to see
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that I was behaving in the exact same way that my dad did
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sex and sexuality can you talk to me about what you've learned about those topics that might benefit me well
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without further Ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the diver CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then
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please keep this to yourself Africa [Music]
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let's I mean if you've seen this podcast before it's no surprise where I'm going to start but um I was reading about your
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story I was reading about um where you grew up and yes where you're originally born give me your earliest most relevant
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context give me the context of um where you came from and and how that
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context shape the person that sits here with me today oh that's good some Zimbabwean
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I'm from Zimbabwe and I think uh this accent always falls people into thinking that I was born and raised here but I
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was born in Zimbabwe which is in the south of Africa and I came to the UK when I was nine years old so I remember
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my life back home in Zimbabwe quite clearly and vividly actually I don't
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remember it being hard apart from my
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experiences with my father even though he could be the most Charming Man and he was such a beautiful
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man he was the kind of person that walks into a room and you can feel that Maxwell has arrived just a very
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beautiful spirit but when he was drunk he could be very different completely different so I think the times that I
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can remember experiencing most of my sadness or frustration as a
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child was experiencing that side of my father because he could be very abusive
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and he was physically abusive to my mum and to myself and my siblings but I
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don't even look at those things and think that I had a horrible childhood in Zimbabwe I have so many wonderful
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wonderful memories of being home and I still call it home you know when people ask me where I'm from I always say
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Zimbabwe before I say the UK or that I'm British um yeah
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you know when you say that you look back on Zimbabwe with fun fun memories yeah um is that because at the time when in
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your household you didn't understand that behavior you didn't understand that it was bad behavior or that it was
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abnormal or is it genuinely because on balance you you consider it to be a
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a happy childhood yeah I think it's actually the letter I think I definitely
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understood that this wasn't right although to be honest there were a lot of behaviors that my father exhibited
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that were considered normal just because of the culture for example things like disciplining your wife through hitting
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her etc etc or your children it was just kind of seen as normal but I definitely knew that it wasn't
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right I definitely knew that there was a problem I knew that seeing a person that is that drunk was not something that
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felt comfortable it wasn't remotely normal I'm able to now I think an adulthood hold multiple truths which is
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something interestingly enough that I speak about a lot of my work the importance of being able to hold multiple truths because like I say about
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my dad I saw him as a bad person I saw him as
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an evil person even and he passed away in 2004 and I never mourned his death
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because of the resentment that I was holding towards him but then when I got sober years later I had to hold multiple
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truths about him to realize that he was a beautiful man I got to experience him in the very early years of my life as
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being a very present father um as being a very loving father before
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alcohol came into his life in the way that it did so I had to then start holding multiple truths about him
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because it wasn't all bad so I think I hold those fond memories because I've had to realize that they did actually
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exist Beyond everything else you said in your 10 years you started to realize that he'd been
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um how bad he'd been to your your mother yeah how did you start to realize that at
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that age three stories um
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through speaking to my siblings about what we had all experienced in the home because we never really spoke I I don't
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know what it's like in your family or when you were growing up but we never really spoke
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about much especially when it came to things that were potentially hard to talk about things that it
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revolved around emotions and being vulnerable things that had anything to do with intimacy or a lack of intimacy
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even the most obvious things like seeing my mum being hit and not talking about
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it almost just pretending that it didn't happen so I think in adulthood when I started seeing how other families were
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when I started to see how open other people are I then started to see the lack in what I had experienced growing
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up so I think that's when I started kind of one I wanted to know more did anyone else see what was happening did my aunts
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and uncles know what was happening um why didn't anyone talk about it why
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didn't anyone talk to us why so I think I had so many why type of questions which fueled a lot
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of my resentment yeah some of the times you used there you said before alcohol showed up in his
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life as you'll know um these things tend to We tend to attract
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these things into our lives easily as you describe it as a a firmer lid to
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hold some trauma I think there's some terminology used previously um in some some of your work yeah did
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you ever understand the trauma that he was trying to and bottle up using alcohol
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you know what that's something that is still unfolding because I think there's
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only so far that other family members will go in terms of
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really telling me and my siblings or anyone else that wants to know the reality of what was really going on but
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I think he was also from a family where people didn't really have many conversations his
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younger brother had committed suicide when he was 26 and
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there were other instances of mental health and that wasn't really spoken
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about as well because because culturally people just didn't talk about these things so I think there were things that
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he was suppressing that I'll never ever know about so I think I've had to make
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peace with the fact that I I won't be able to get all of the answers as to why and how I just have to understand what
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did happen and what I experienced and forgive where I can get answers where I can and also let go of expectations
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I had a guest on this podcast called Tim Grover and he he talked about his early upbringing he was he ended up being
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Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's trainer and he says that um our childhood experiences tend to
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create our Brilliance but they also create our dark side and he referred to it as his dark side he told me about his
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dark side yeah um Dark Side can sometimes mean insecurities it can mean
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the the worst traits or character flaws within us but
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from the experience you had what became your dark side um
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oh that's a fantastic question you know what I ended up replicating pretty much
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the same drinking behavior that my dad had from the age of 14 up until 24 when I
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finally got sober so a decade long um I was a blackout Drinker I was a
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binge Drinker very specifically I didn't know when to stop because my intention
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was never to stop from the first time that I drunk it's almost as if something
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magical happened I realized that I could change who I was that I didn't have to
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feel insecure anymore that I didn't have to think about the areas in which I'm
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Different the areas in which can lead to me being abandoned because I'm different and what I mean specifically by that is
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when I came to the UK when I was nine years old I always say this and I I'll
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continue saying it because it was one of the it's a something that I love her but it was quite big it was the first time
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that I realized that I'm black I had never Stephen had to think about
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it before ever had to think about it but we moved to Kent when in 2001 when we
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first came to the country and in my school it was probably me and my sister and one other boy called Curtis we were
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the only black kids in the entire school and I know you've shared your similar experiences with kind of just seeing
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just how much you stand out in an environment that you have to be in and we were living in Kent for about three
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years and then we moved to London but the imprint was already made the insecurity around who I was as a young
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black girl when I moved to London it was completely different because now I was
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seen as prissy I was seen as attractive but that was also very confusing in
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itself because I still didn't quite fit in because now to most of the black
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people that I was around I was white because of the the way that I spoke by
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the time I was 14 and I drunk alcohol for the first time sort of silenced all of those things I
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remember it was in a park with some friends and the more that I drunk the more confident
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I became or so I thought um and the more that I just felt at ease
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in myself and in my body and with the people around me even though I didn't
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stop binge drinking or blackout drinking from that moment an imprint had been made a pattern started to develop that
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every time that I drunk from that time the intention was to get [ __ ] up the intention was to experience that same
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level of comfort and confidence that I felt that first time and I tried and did
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replicate that same pattern over and over and over and over again
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for 10 years and that's when I started to see that I was
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behaving in the exact same way that my dad did so I think that's the sort of shadow
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that started to form lying that became a habit of yours it did
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compulsive lying what what was compulsive lying doing for you on a
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psychological level what was it what was it allowing you to escape from or Escape where to was it allowing you to escape
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to um it was allowing me to feel accepted
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it was allowing me to sort of create my own
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world because the world that I'd been in a world where
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someone that was supposed to protect me and my siblings and my family
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um did the complete opposite and damaged our family in a very very very big way I
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remember that it did start in Zimbabwe when I would be at school and I was
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quite young maybe even six probably around six or seven I would go to school and sort of tell other kids
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about my dad and who he was and how amazing he was and all these things that he would he would do and parts of it
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were true but most of it wasn't most of it was just me trying to create a
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reality that I could live with a reality that made me feel safe a reality that made me feel comfortable a reality that
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other people could sort of step into for a moment and think wow that's that's incredible so therefore it would make me
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incredible in some kind of way so I think I started to get rewarded for that and then it just became habitual because
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any time that I felt like I wasn't fitting in in the way that I wanted to
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or that things were happening within our home that were just very uncomfortable
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and I didn't again have the language for that it was it was all just feeling knowing that something is quite wrong I
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would then go into a different environment and just create a story and I when you was speaking to example I
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think he was talking about something similar in relation to lying where he was saying kind of embellishing the
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truth if you will to kind of create a story and I resonated with that so much because I think that's exactly what it
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was for me just trying to create a different world and when alcohol was a
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part of that as well it was just even more explosive and I think there was something quite addictive about that
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being able to create your own reality and convince other people that that
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reality is actually true um so it would it was definitely a big part of my drinking something that would
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come out it's so interesting because when you were describing why you lied a lot of people listen to this and think
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well I can't relate because I'm not a liar yeah but the lens in which I sort of heard that through is
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um pretty much everyone listening to this is lying for the same reason the words you used were to create a reality
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then you said I would be rewarded for and I found it better to live in and if you think about
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an Instagram filter yeah yes that's a that's a form of creating a world where
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you feel more comfortable and get more rewards for even like this the selection of the the online identity that some
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some of us create where we show just the very best or we try and change how we
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look or whatever that is surely a form of lying to get better rewards and to to create a world where you feel more
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comfortable and safer to live in yes like you you know and so lying is not just saying something which is not true
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yes it's a morphing of one's identity to create a safer I guess Identity or story
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yeah that the world might reward you for but in doing so you obviously abandon yourself exactly so it's like um
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another word that comes to mind as we talk about is is deception right it's a form of of deception and I think it for
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me it was not even just about deceiving other people it was deceiving myself so that I
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could live with myself better you know if I see myself through this lens
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um but yeah it's very interesting how we can hear certain words and think no that doesn't that doesn't resonate with me I
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don't do that but then it just shows up very subtly in the things we do every single day but yeah lying was a was a
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huge thing was a huge huge thing for me and it's something that I really had to look dead in the eye when I got sober
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six years ago um yeah going back to that that period where you
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were drinking yeah you were engaging in certain abandonment star behaviors to try and escape from you know this
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um who you were what is the cost of abandoning yourself what is the cost I know it's quite a
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profound thing but yeah what was the cost for you of that continual for almost 10 years finding ways to abandon
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yourself the cost was that forgot to know myself
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I never got to know myself not in the ways that I really wanted to anyway I
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got I got to know the version of me that I thought people wanted so I wasted a
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lot of time doing that and there was also a very real mental cost because
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waking up next to someone not knowing where you are not knowing if you've had
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sex with that person there's a huge mental cost to that on your self-esteem
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it feels a lot of Shame if he was a lot of guilt because I would be in relationships sometimes when these
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things would happen not not have I cheated on my partner or was this just something innocent because my clothes
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are still on so it it really really had a huge mental cost so there was a lot of
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anxiety there was a lot of insecurity I would even say you know a low level
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paranoia because when you wake up not knowing whether you've done something but feeling like you will need to apologize for something
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um going through my phone just to have an idea of what I've done or what I didn't do who was I with how did I end
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up all the way in [ __ ] sorry when I was in SoHo not too long ago
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um so there was a huge mental cost but also there was a spiritual cost because just
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like I said right a few moments ago not getting to know yourself
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and then getting sober further down the line and feeling like you're a newborn baby I I didn't even know what I like to
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do what the [ __ ] do I actually enjoy doing if I'm not drinking or smoking
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something or snorting something what do I actually what do I enjoy you know who
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am I as an individual without all of those things can I even be by myself
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so there was a huge spiritual cost and once I realized the cost of all of those things it was around the same time that
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I discovered the concept of self-sabotage right when you get in your own way and that helped me so much just
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to even have that language to understand what this thing actually was why I had
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been in that destructive cycle for such a long time um I want to just on that point of the
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destructive cycle because when you were explaining waking up you know um the next day somewhere you don't know you
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don't know what you've done the night before yeah and that giving you guilt to hurting your self-worth it's yeah it was
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my brain was going well this was meant to be the the medicine for a lack of self-worth yes and it ends up taking
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even more of your self-where so it's this kind of race to the bottom of your self-esteem by thinking that the
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medication is this kind of destructive abandonment behavior and it's and that's weirdly self-reinforcing so you do it to
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try and Escape but it harms you so much that you need that maybe that sort of
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surface level attention the alcohol even more so that leads you in the same place and that vicious cycle to the bottom of
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your self-esteem right and trying to pick yourself up out of that is one hell of a task oh yeah it's probably
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one of the most grueling things I've done which is why I actually I'm actually very grateful for all of those
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times that I did Relapse because I think I was reminded every single time just
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how much I wanted to break this [ __ ] cycle and how much I had to because it's
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so anything that is familiar anything that is familiar feels safe in
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some way even though objectively it might look like how is this person not
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changing their life clearly they're losing everyone around them and I'm talking about myself losing everyone
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around them can't even stay in any job for longer than a month unable to commit
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to anything incredibly unreliable how can they not see that something
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needs to change but the thing is when you are in that cycle of self-destruction self-sabotage if it
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feels familiar it's kind of all you know that when I would have those bursts of sobriety where I'd be sober for three
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months and six months and I didn't have any chaos I didn't have any drama I was
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reliable I people were saying that they're proud of me you know I could see that I was doing well it made me
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uncomfortable it made me uncomfortable because it didn't feel familiar and there was
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always this thing in the back of my mind that would sort of say you're gonna [ __ ] up anyway so might as well just
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might as well just do it now you know and that's when the justifications would come things like I haven't had a drink
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in six months so maybe if I just have one it's it's going to be different you
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know or I would say things like um I have a problem with alcohol but
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cocaine is not the problem so maybe I can still have a line every now and again and then you know and then I can
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still be with my friends and so all of these justifications but when I really looked at it I was uncomfortable with my
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life actually being drama free chaos free and being reliable being able to be there for the people that I that I love
00:21:51
um because I was just so comfortable in that destruction and I chose that every
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single time until until I didn't until I couldn't if someone's listening to this
00:22:02
um and they're in one of those sort of downward um negatively reinforcing self-esteem
00:22:07
Cycles yeah where you're carrying out a behavior because it because you have low self-esteem but then that behavior is
00:22:13
actually resulting in a lowering of your self-esteem it can be a toxic relationship where you're staying because they took your self-esteem so
00:22:20
you think that they're the only ones that can give it back but they're hurting you even more yeah I see that a lot in my DMs right it can be other what
00:22:26
advice would you give to someone to try and break out of that um that negatively reinforcing
00:22:32
self-esteem cycle um I think one of the things I think questions are always the
00:22:37
best place to start I always like to think of self-sabotage and self-destruction as self-protection
00:22:43
you're actually protecting yourself from something and a lot of it is unconscious you're not consciously deciding to get
00:22:50
in your own way you're not consciously deciding to stay in chaos and drama because you just absolutely love it
00:22:56
maybe for some people that might be the case but for most of us it's entirely unconscious but I think
00:23:03
getting clear on what the benefits are because you're getting some kind of reward from it right because if you
00:23:10
don't think that you're worthy if you don't think that you're lovable that's
00:23:15
always going to be the belief that you feed every single time it's some kind of confirmation it's like a c i I see I
00:23:23
said that I wasn't unlovable that's why I choose someone who shouts at me that's why I choose someone who manipulates me
00:23:29
that's why I choose someone who cheats on me over and over again that's why I choose someone who shames me or whatever
00:23:35
the details might be so I think there's always some kind of reward that we're getting from that situation and I think
00:23:41
it can be a very sounds quite abstract but I think it can be an important question to ask yourself what am I what
00:23:47
reward am I actually getting from this and is this going to be worth it in the long term and all of this to me kind of sounds
00:23:54
like shifting your identity and what you're used to and allowing yourself to get used to things that might not be
00:23:59
familiar yet I think you also have to understand that when you're breaking some kind of cycle it's going to be
00:24:05
uncomfortable that's why I'm a huge advocate for discomfort because I think a lot of us when we change a pattern the
00:24:12
moment we feel uncomfortable even though it's good for us the moment we feel uncomfortable we'll pull the plug and we
00:24:18
often pull the plugs so prematurely so I think one of the things that I would suggest and I say this to my clients and
00:24:25
anyone that I speak to allow yourself to be in that discomfort because a lot of
00:24:30
the time it's where you currently are with your identity and the identity that you're trying to step into someone who
00:24:36
is more lovable for example but that middle part is going to be quite uncomfortable and you just have to stay
00:24:44
there while things sort of reconfigure is that like because you're contending against two counters or counters yes yes
00:24:52
and it takes time to believe a new story so you're gonna have to sit in maybe a feeling of him
00:24:58
feeling like a bit of an imposter or you know what I mean it's almost like this evidence but right at the end of the day all these stories are backed by either
00:25:04
true or false but it's subjective evidence yeah that's who you are and what the world thinks of me and what I'm capable of so that's it writing new
00:25:11
evidence is not an easy or a quick no no and it's not supposed to be because I think
00:25:16
um I think we also have this idea that it's supposed to be easy you know that kind of once you make a decision and you
00:25:23
decide that you're going to do it that it should just work and if it doesn't if it's uncomfortable that means it's wrong
00:25:29
that means you should pull the plug that's not that's not always the case what she what do you still
00:25:37
self-sabotage with or how do you still sabotage you know what it is for me romantic
00:25:44
relationships and it always helps me when I'm very honest about the fact that this is an
00:25:50
area where I still have self-sabotaging Tendencies so what that looks like is
00:25:58
feeling when someone is trying to get close to me
00:26:03
I will immediately start to feel suffocated I'll start to feel like I need to find
00:26:11
something wrong with you so that you don't get too close even if I want you to get close but it's because there's a
00:26:19
a part of me doesn't want to be vulnerable because vulnerability in that area means being exposed it means being
00:26:26
raw exposed to what exposed vulnerable
00:26:33
you know what I think it is I think it's a to put it very simply I think it's it's a feeling of if you really get to
00:26:41
know me you might abandon me and I think this is not something that's even you
00:26:47
know on a conscious level because I have a strong sense of self I know who I am
00:26:53
etc etc but I think there is still those sort of traces from childhood from everything that I've
00:26:59
experienced in my life that those remnants of that that have that voice that say if I really let you in and you
00:27:07
actually get to know me you might abandon me so what I need to do I need to find a way to get in there first and
00:27:13
abandon you before you abandon me so that might look like as I said once
00:27:18
the person is starting to kind of get close I will feel suffocated I'll feel like okay it's getting too much I need
00:27:25
my own space what's what's wrong with you danger yeah huh danger
00:27:30
um where did you learn that model that a romantic relationship might be danger oh gosh I mean take a guess take a guess
00:27:38
the the first relationship that I ever saw a man
00:27:44
and woman a couple being together was my mother and my father and that's the
00:27:49
model in which I had to kind of build my own idea of romantic love and what relationships look like so I've never
00:27:56
wanted to get too close and I could never have said this to you before I
00:28:01
didn't have language for it but when I looked at the patterns from relationship to relationship I always thought that
00:28:07
they had a timeline as well never going anywhere beyond the one year mark always
00:28:12
feeling like okay that's enough we've done our time let's let's uh release yeah yes so I think um romantic
00:28:21
relationships is one and I also had one in terms of money and this one I really
00:28:28
had to nip it in the bud when I started my consulting firm five years ago
00:28:34
I used to sabotage any opportunity to potentially make more money than my mum so my mum is a nurse
00:28:42
so when I started sharing my sobriety story and I started realizing that I'm
00:28:48
actually very good at what I do in terms of speaking in terms of supporting people I'm a very curious person and I
00:28:54
do have a powerful story a powerful story that allows me to reach so many different types of people so it gained a
00:29:00
lot of traction quite early on in 2016 2017. so I would start getting speaking
00:29:06
opportunities in the beginning everything was sort of free and I was okay with that never had to negotiate things around money money was not
00:29:13
something that was spoken about in my family growing up I don't know what it was like for you but the only time that
00:29:19
money conversations were really had um was through arguments you would only hear Money spoken about where there
00:29:26
wasn't enough money etc etc etc so I always had so many
00:29:31
different money stories money is very hard to come by money doesn't grow on trees you have to work hard for money
00:29:39
um so many ideas about rich people rich people are bad rich people are this and no one in my family explicitly said that
00:29:45
but I think culturally it was sort of just a thing people don't have to explicitly say it culturally we all know
00:29:52
what the stories are so when I would hear or get emails saying Africa we'd
00:29:57
love for you to speak at this thing it's just half an hour what is your rate we're offering 3K
00:30:04
um I would just experience so much discomfort knowing that my mum is working
00:30:09
so many hours as a nurse on her feet and she's probably making half of that or
00:30:15
just about that so what I would do and this was not a conscious thing until I started looking
00:30:20
at my money story I would let those emails sit any email that was saying I
00:30:25
would be getting paid I would let those emails sit until it was too late they've probably offered
00:30:31
someone else because I just felt so uncomfortable making money so easily so
00:30:37
I would sabotage any opportunity to get paid but if it was free I will reply
00:30:42
straight away I'll do it but when you're in business that doesn't [ __ ] work
00:30:48
it doesn't work but even outside of that I I was shown that because I was incapable of receiving when it came to
00:30:54
money I was incapable of receiving in so many areas I was incapable of receiving
00:31:00
love fully because when I did I would shut down because a part of me thinks I don't deserve it I was then capable of
00:31:06
receiving opportunities because I'd feel like this has happened way too easily I'm supposed to it's supposed to be hard
00:31:13
but this is so easy so I would be suspicious of it and sabotage it so those are the two main areas that I've
00:31:20
really had to do some work on over the past years on the first point
00:31:25
um you were very much preaching to the choir there as I've talked about quite a few times on this podcast why do I see
00:31:31
relationships as like a bird trapped in a cage or someone trapped in jail well okay well that's what my father was my
00:31:36
father was trapped my father my whole life I I was convinced he was trapped that was my first model of what a
00:31:42
romantic relationship was so of course it was the most um most evidence-backed yeah and so
00:31:49
you've got a it's similar to what we were talking about earlier about like stepping into a new story yes and although every part of your being is
00:31:55
going this is bad you've got to stay you do communicate with in this case the
00:32:00
person say by the way this this happens so yes I struggle yes um and hopefully build new evidence and
00:32:07
the right person can help you build new evidence I agree which is what my girlfriend helped me to do she helped me
00:32:13
to build without by just being herself and not being a prison guard she created new evidence and that new
00:32:20
evidence is strong it's not the old evidence is still there I don't actually
00:32:25
think the old evidence will ever go oh I love that you say that Stephen I really do because I think it's again this idea
00:32:33
that it has to go completely before we step into the other one and I think that's what holds people back from fully
00:32:40
stepping into their new identity because they think if I'm really supposed to be here and
00:32:46
this is actually real and I have all of this new evidence that's not supposed to be there at all and I think again
00:32:52
there's multiple truths they can coexist it's just what you choose to feed over and over again
00:32:58
yeah and you you know if you think of spiders like I'm not scared of spiders but there's a part of me that goes
00:33:06
there's a lot of evidence because I've seen other people running away from them I've seen films yes but I'm not I know
00:33:12
like objective but I've got enough evidence to say that despite they don't even bite yeah you know no one's dying of spiders really but I'm still there's
00:33:19
still a little bit of evidence be careful you know and I can exist with those two truths as you as you described
00:33:24
it you're totally right though in the sense that people expect them that they
00:33:29
will get to a place where they are healed and cured completely and I I just have never seen it me
00:33:36
neither me neither never seen it ever and I think we have a current culture actually so I'm um
00:33:42
I'm a coach and consultant and speaker Etc who's in the realm of self-help
00:33:47
but despises the self-help industry for a multitude
00:33:53
of reasons because I think it perpetuates that idea that idea of healing as if it's a destination yeah
00:33:59
you know you sign up for this course get this book listen to this podcast and
00:34:04
then it's it's done then you're healed so I think there's a lot of people that are in a very good place if you were to
00:34:11
look at it in a very holistic way but continuously believe that they have to rid themselves of these very human
00:34:18
things and this you know inevitable human discomfort that we all experience and they put labels on it to make it you
00:34:25
know mean like it's this um so yeah I think there's a cult there is a culture right now where people are
00:34:32
on this continuous journey of healing when actually some of these things won't actually go away completely and that's fine
00:34:39
that's normal it's an interesting thing because there are some people out there as well I want to get your take on this sure I've basically made healing their
00:34:46
identity uh-huh it's their personal brand it's their space being broken and healing is there it's who they are and
00:34:52
they've embraced that is that harmful and dangerous in your view absolutely I think it is I think it is because it's
00:34:59
it again perpetuates another idea which ties into this that we need to be on this pursuit of
00:35:06
constantly fixing something you know um and I think I've also seen people do
00:35:12
that in the as you say it as a brand but people making it yeah making it the actual business their public Persona
00:35:19
this is who I am and I think it encourages other people or makes other people feel that they need to do the
00:35:27
same thing or that they need to sort of make their pain their identity as well
00:35:33
you also see this with people um who uh contrarian just for the sake
00:35:39
of being contrarian right I think that's why you yeah they just have to disagree they just have to disagree with you and
00:35:48
they usually that's why when I talk about um you know this kind of seemingly a battle between the work
00:35:54
versus anti-work I always see that essentially they're quite the same they're exactly the same you will
00:36:01
have the people that are for example anti-work want to be contrarian for the sake of it you know screaming about how
00:36:07
woke everyone has got if people are let's say talking about being inclusive they'll just label that as work it's the
00:36:13
exact same behavior as they claim to oppose which I find very interesting how people can be so
00:36:21
loud about something and be so convicted and be wanting to point out a specific
00:36:27
type of behavior not realizing that they're behaving in the exact same way
00:36:32
but I think it is part of that performance where people are being rewarded because they're performing in a very specific way and they see that okay
00:36:39
if I perform in this way I'm going to get likes I'm going to get opportunities I get to to sort of feel it really feeds
00:36:46
the ego as well when you have your Echo chamber and you have people that say yes to everything you have people that see
00:36:52
you as some sort of um leader but I think it's building some very interesting characters online especially
00:36:59
I wonder if both extremes so the far left and the far right I wonder if they're just both low self-esteem yes
00:37:06
yes because they're the ones that seem to need the the reinforcements yes I will be militant about these views
00:37:12
because by being further over here I'm getting more people that are clapping yes you know whereas Nuance seems to be
00:37:18
a place where you don't care much as as much about the Clapping yeah you're not really doing it for the clap you're doing it for in my view more for truth
00:37:25
yes yes I I see that a lot and have you found
00:37:30
um would you say I think from listening to everything you've said I I kind of have
00:37:35
an idea of what this would look like for you but would you say that you're more in that Nuance would you say you've
00:37:40
always been more in the middle or have you ever found yourself on either I used to think I was ever on the left yeah now
00:37:46
if I think I'm somewhere in the middle yeah so um I can't what you described earlier is like an intolerance of ideas
00:37:53
it's you know and both but both extreme side so the far left the far right are both
00:37:59
just really intolerant yeah and I and they're not willing to have a conversation with anybody so I find
00:38:06
myself being pushed more towards this center point where I find people like me people like you yeah I think I don't
00:38:12
know where you consider yourself yeah the exact same you know what I don't think I've ever
00:38:18
um even used language like I'm on the left
00:38:24
or anything like that and maybe there's something about being an immigrant because when I speak to immigrants and
00:38:29
people that are not from this country I think we have a different relationship with politics in general you will never
00:38:35
really hear most people um saying that on the left or they're on the right I think it won't really happen
00:38:41
most people are the majority of people really are in that Center in that middle ground I would say if you were to look
00:38:48
at my values and what I stand for objectively yes I'm a left-leaning person but I don't make that my identity
00:38:54
I don't look at everything on that side and say okay check check I agree with
00:38:59
that everything is context dependent and there are many things that I agree with from different sides because I just look
00:39:05
at what is the context what are we talking about does this make sense to me is this applicable in real life
00:39:12
um so that's the sort of process that I take myself through and it's neither left or right it's very
00:39:18
much in the middle like everyone like the majority of people yeah I think the majority of people
00:39:24
probably are but but it I think especially in this day and age it takes it's much probably easier because you
00:39:29
get to fit in if you're on either side yes there's no Club in the middle yeah there's no you know what I mean there's
00:39:34
no uniform yeah in the middle so you don't you don't those that might want to fit in and be reinforced by um a group
00:39:40
aren't going to find that in the middle ground yeah pick a side do you actually see what I mean it's like yeah it's a
00:39:46
club they have you know a uniform they have stickers they have like a schedule they have a doctor in they have Ten
00:39:52
Commandments yeah this is why people join Cults isn't it it's true and you know what um speaking of Cults when I
00:39:58
wrote when I wrote my open letter um why I'm leaving the cult of weakness
00:40:04
I was really trying to have this conversation because essentially I I was
00:40:11
speaking about what we're talking about now an invitation into that middle ground where most people are inviting
00:40:17
people to acknowledge nuance and context to really realize that black people for example we don't all think the same we
00:40:24
have very different experiences and we have very different opinions we have
00:40:30
very different beliefs World Views most people
00:40:36
um that identify as being on the left would not have that conversation with me it's only just starting to happen now
00:40:41
the only people that would be willing to have those conversations with me would be people that would be seen as being on
00:40:47
the right and I found that very interesting that you know when you look at being a leftist it is about being
00:40:53
tolerant it is about um well I guess that would be what would what would that be would it be classic
00:40:59
liberalism if you were to I guess so right um but even that approach is seen as
00:41:05
right wing now so I understand why a lot of people really are getting pushed out
00:41:10
of the left and more into the center because most people would not have that conversation with me because the moment
00:41:16
you critique something from the left you're labeled as being on the right which is just the most absurd thing I
00:41:24
have ever heard um but I think now two years on
00:41:29
things are starting to shift a little bit more I think people have stopped being so fearful of what is known as
00:41:36
cancer culture even though I prefer to call it Collective sabotage because I think that's a much more accurate term
00:41:41
for it I think people are being less afraid now to ask questions to be like actually let's let's hear what this view
00:41:48
actually is we don't have to agree with it but we can at least acknowledge that it exists but I think people that are on
00:41:56
the right from my own experience especially if we're talking about media Etc have been more willing to have these
00:42:02
conversations and to have more debates and to honor that gray more than the
00:42:08
left I've you know I've probably had thousands of tweets from people telling me that I cannot speak to that person on
00:42:14
my podcast right thousands of tweets and I promise you I've never had those tweets from someone
00:42:20
on the right yeah no matter which guest I get on and what they believe no one from the right has said Steve you cannot
00:42:25
platform that person right it's never happened so and that that again you're not help you're you're
00:42:32
basically going to punish me if I don't um say think and have conversations that
00:42:38
are in line with your Doctrine yeah and for me that for me has been alienating and this is why I now consider myself to
00:42:43
be more in the middle because I don't agree with that intolerance I think I should be able to have a conversation with anyone including Donald Trump right
00:42:51
I I hope I never get to the point where I would not be willing to have a conversation conversation you know what I mean yeah that's a that's a that
00:42:57
reminds me of like the I don't know 18th century I know nothing about history so I just named an old Century reminds me
00:43:02
of the 18th century when they used to like burn books because they even want people to hear stuff yes and yes anyway
00:43:09
speaking of controversial topics one of the things that's become surprisingly controversial over the last couple of
00:43:14
years is and probably for a little while longer um since the 17th century
00:43:21
um is this idea of accountability which to me seems like much of the antidote to self-sabotage is like taking personal
00:43:27
responsibility for your life and your situation I've heard you talk about this I actually think this was the first the first one of your first videos that
00:43:34
caught my attention was you talking about taking responsibility in a really you know a fairly direct way so tell me
00:43:42
how taking responsibility what that means to you but how that helped you to rise out of that phase you had from 14
00:43:47
to 24. yeah oh it was huge it was huge and it had to be one of the first things
00:43:54
that I did actually as I as I think about this and sort of speak out loud
00:43:59
I think what allowed me to get and stay sober that eighth and final time was
00:44:04
taking personal responsibility I think all of the other times I had wanted to place blame on a lot of things outside
00:44:11
of me so my dad would have been the easiest person because he was an alcoholic and because of his abuse and
00:44:18
because of everything we experienced and because of the instability because of coming to a new country moving to a part
00:44:26
of the UK where just me my sister and Curtis are the only black kids the
00:44:31
adversity I experienced from that so I think there were so many ways that I could externalize right but I think the
00:44:38
moment that I was able to say okay well Africa what part did you have to play in this so you've experienced all of this
00:44:43
adversity what now what [ __ ] now no one else can do it for you and I
00:44:49
think that helped me so much and another thing that I had to do which is a part
00:44:55
of that responsibility and accountability was making amends so people that have followed the 12-step
00:45:01
program for example will know that making amends is a huge part of it I didn't follow the toaster program I
00:45:07
what's the 12-step program so 12-step is AA essentially Alcoholics Anonymous you
00:45:12
go through a process a 12-step process of accountability essentially and one of
00:45:18
those steps is making amends reaching out to the people that you've harmed and
00:45:23
making amends and that's what I had to do and I I really did that and there was
00:45:28
a lot of Shame there was a lot of guilt there were a lot of people that didn't want to hear it but there were a lot of
00:45:34
people that were very grateful that even after all of these years I'm coming to them and acknowledging something that I
00:45:40
did or played a part in and only then could I actually move forward with my
00:45:46
sobriety knowing that I am responsible yes I've experienced a lot of adversity
00:45:52
but I am the one that gets to decide what now so fast forward to finding
00:45:58
ourselves in a culture where even just conversations around personal responsibility are have been politicized
00:46:04
because I've noticed they're labeled as right wing the moment isn't that weird it's mad
00:46:10
isn't that crazy the moment you say you do realize there is a lot in your
00:46:17
life that you can control you're called a bigot [Applause]
00:46:23
I'm a puppet and I'm a victim there's nothing I can control it's and it's that
00:46:29
political party that did this yeah okay so yes and that yeah
00:46:38
it's [ __ ] crazy it's mad and I think I've I speak to my family and my friends
00:46:45
about all of these things quite a lot actually and because I'm still very much in touch with everyone back home in
00:46:50
Zimbabwe and because I have that perspective when I compare to that part of the world
00:46:57
to the Western World it this just seems like a completely different world like
00:47:02
some kind of show it can't be real that people can get upset to know that there
00:47:07
are things in your life that you can control yes you might have experienced X Y and Z but you are responsible for how
00:47:15
you move forward yes there might be other components maybe it is the system maybe it is your familial environment
00:47:21
whatever the details might be but there are also things within your control the
00:47:26
fact that people can label that as being bigoted the moment you say I I
00:47:33
just wouldn't you want that to be the case wouldn't you want to have things that you can control the thought of
00:47:38
being powerless yeah to my circumstances is the most terrifying thing in the world you know being being a being a big
00:47:45
that's why I refer to it as a puppet that someone else is pulling these strings right and I have no I'm powerless to my situation so I think
00:47:52
it's I find it empowering and liberating to say do you know there is a lot of things I can control yes I'm I'm broke
00:47:57
yes I'm in this situation but there are there's something that I can do yeah and I have to also Express the Nuance that
00:48:03
you did which is there are a lot of people that are um that are disabled there are a lot of people that have found themselves in terrifically
00:48:09
unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own yes but I find it really important for my sanity of mind
00:48:17
and my optimism for the future to know that there is something often there is something that I can do to change my situation absolutely that's
00:48:24
a controversial idea imagine that would you have I couldn't believe the people typing out at you
00:48:32
Rich [ __ ] with his cards what what what is it though do you do you
00:48:38
think you know what that is yeah because it holds a mirror up to you it makes you feel like for some people and I think it
00:48:44
was for me at some point as well holding that mirror up and saying you know what I might have had part to play in this
00:48:49
and I'm actually I I can have a part in getting out of the situation for some
00:48:54
people is it evidence of their inadequacy that they just don't have the self-esteem to confront so it's easier
00:49:00
to blame blame is a nice a nice Shield it's a nice way to deflect the attack against my already fragile self-esteem I
00:49:07
would do that of course when I was younger and someone might point at something blame was a way for you not to
00:49:12
hit me in the self-esteem it was a way of saying no no no no that's not because I'm inadequate or because I'm not
00:49:17
capable or I'm not smart or because I'm not working hard it's because of this other thing and so leave me alone Africa
00:49:25
blocks yes it's like do you know what I mean that's that's my analysis a bit often is it's for some people it's it's
00:49:31
look it's a it feels like evidence of their inadequacy yes and why what would
00:49:38
someone not like that well because it makes you feel like [ __ ] yeah and I I
00:49:43
think because we're also being encouraged I've especially the youngest generation who I
00:49:49
really now more than ever want to make more of an effort to really speak directly to
00:49:55
them is because I think we're we're sort of training each other to not prioritize
00:50:00
emotional resilience because along with personal responsibility resilience is also another controversial word you know
00:50:08
this this idea that you can build a strong Foundation within yourself that
00:50:13
even if something happens externally outside of you you are able to deal with it you don't have to go into that deep
00:50:20
dark place and think that is that full stop so I think because most people
00:50:25
are not emotionally resilient and are not nurturing and sort of cultivating
00:50:31
that within themselves it continues that cycle where you just end up in perpetual victimhood and then we are in a culture
00:50:38
that rewards victims you know and I I think self-correction there actually and
00:50:43
I want to make this very clear that there is a very real difference between being a victim someone who has genuinely
00:50:49
been victimized and making victimhood an identity there's a there's a huge
00:50:55
difference between the two but I think when you start to make victimhood an identity for anything and everything
00:51:01
that's when it might be time to actually hold a mirror up to yourself on that word resilience yeah I think the reason
00:51:07
why resilience is in part at least why it's a controversial topic is because it
00:51:13
kind of starts to merge into the lane of like mental health and resilient people
00:51:18
when they think of resilience they think of like shut up and deal with it yeah you know what I mean yeah and then that that acts as in Conflict to them
00:51:25
Narrative of like express yourself feel your emotions yeah it's okay to be not
00:51:30
okay yeah so talk to me about the distinction you make between those two things and your relationship with both
00:51:36
you know what I guess this is where I would bring it back around to holding those multiple truths because
00:51:42
why do we think that we have to choose between one or the other why can't you be both emotionally resilient as an
00:51:48
individual as a being and allow yourself to express yourself and allow yourself to be vulnerable and allow yourself to
00:51:55
have those real low moments that we all do and I think both can co-exist it's really not one or the other so what is
00:52:02
the opposite of resilience then hmm the word weakness comes to mind but I
00:52:09
don't know if that's accurate I don't know if that's accurate to what
00:52:17
I'm not sure but it's interesting because the word weakness comes to mind and maybe a part
00:52:23
of me or even for someone listening we
00:52:29
we think associating the word weak to yourself means there's something
00:52:35
wrong with you that it's a bad word I think there's this idea that it's it's bad to be weak or it's not acceptable to
00:52:41
be weak but I think we all have moments of weakness but I don't know if that would be the opposite of
00:52:48
of resilience what do you think um so if we're talking about emotional
00:52:53
resilience maybe the opposite is emotional maybe fragility yeah maybe I don't know
00:53:00
um it's something within that realm right yeah and the reason I I'm basically Playing devil's advocate was
00:53:05
myself to see if to see if it is two truths because or if what we were describing earlier about
00:53:11
being expressive and being in touch with your emotions is that being emotionally fragile or is that something else I
00:53:18
wonder if another word that's coming to mind if some reason soft I think it's both possible to be soft
00:53:25
and whatever you would consider hard because just in very simple language when I hear the word resilience you have
00:53:31
to be hard there's something sort of it's not necessarily stoic but but it's it's sort
00:53:37
of that kind of language where you're really fully grounded in yourself your back is straight you're internally up
00:53:43
you know whereas the other side of that is maybe maybe there is an element of fragility which is fine I don't I don't
00:53:50
think it's a bad thing allowing yourself to be soft allowing yourself to be
00:53:55
um to not be as strong all of the time so I I think it's interesting thing because on one hand you're saying be
00:54:00
resilient but then also be the opposite of resilience yes yeah
00:54:08
yeah it can be context-specific Behavior so you can be resilient in the sense that when someone
00:54:14
um pelts abuse at you and your Instagram DMS you have the resilience to not
00:54:19
internalize that not let it um destroy your day or your mood and to move on but then you can be I guess
00:54:26
emotionally you know then your dog might die I've got a lovely dog running around somewhere here yeah and my dog might die and that is real cause for emotional
00:54:33
expression and to be emotionally to be soft and to be um open and to feel yes so maybe it's
00:54:40
context specific yeah I think so I think so but again I I think they can both
00:54:46
coexist how did you get to this place of self-awareness because
00:54:51
you know um I I you know we all know people who are repeating cycles and they have no
00:54:58
either they're taking their responsibility for it or they just don't know that they're doing it yeah and sometimes as friends and this is again
00:55:03
this is us looking in on this situation as if we know what's best for them so there's an error there but we look we
00:55:09
see friends family going through cycles and they don't know what they're doing and they don't they don't understand
00:55:14
themselves enough to the point where you are today where you clearly um you exhibit High self-awareness and
00:55:21
understanding of yourself your past your behavior and the causes of it um one of my favorite quotes that I've
00:55:26
ever written which is based on based on a friend I had was um you can read as many books as you like but if you can't read yourself you'll never truly learn a
00:55:33
thing but you can also say you can read as many books as you like but if you can't read yourself you'll never make progress yes because you can have the
00:55:39
information but implementing it requires understanding the being in which yeah
00:55:45
you're implementing that too so how did you become so apparently self-aware
00:55:50
you know what I think I've always loved to read I've always loved to read and to to hear other
00:55:57
people's stories and to hear other people's thoughts so one of the first people that I discovered
00:56:04
um the eighth time that I got sober was Carl Jung so he's a incredible psychotherapist who
00:56:11
explores Shadow work and you know our Shadow Self Etc and I think through his work and then finding many other
00:56:18
teachers many other mentors along the way um just through books mainly books and
00:56:23
self-study I was able to finally have language for the things that I was experiencing internally so I think it
00:56:29
helped that I did have that Foundation off already being quite a self-aware person but now having language for my
00:56:35
behavior and I think just through different practices even reading something about why you know
00:56:44
lying to yourself is a form of self-betrayal it meant that every time that I was in a situation and I could
00:56:49
feel myself about to lie I would kind of challenge myself to not and to just say
00:56:55
something different or to just say what I actually mean so I think it's been a combination of self-study
00:57:01
um reading tuning into the self-awareness I already had but using it in just a different way and actually
00:57:07
stepping into the arena and practicing so I think that that has helped me kind of developed my sense of self over time
00:57:15
what about writing and writing writing has always helped but you know what's
00:57:21
interesting I found especially in those 10 years I would write in my journal as if
00:57:27
someone was going to read it so I would lie what were you lying about in your diary
00:57:33
oh that's a good question I was lying about how I really felt about my relationship
00:57:39
so I was writing as if my boyfriend at the time would read it
00:57:44
um so I wasn't being completely honest about how unhappy I was
00:57:50
I wasn't being honest about cheating in our relationship when I was
00:57:56
drunk um I wasn't being honest about my relationship with alcohol
00:58:01
I wasn't being honest about how I really felt about one particular family member
00:58:07
who I really wanted to heal things with um but it felt weird because
00:58:15
we we didn't speak about emotional things in my family so there was a lot of resistance around medding mending
00:58:21
that relationship even though I knew exactly what I needed to do um why do you speak about in past tense
00:58:27
which part by that family member mending it you speak of it as if it's past tense what exactly did I say just um you're
00:58:35
referring to it as if you haven't mended it I haven't right I haven't and I wrote that entry
00:58:41
it's in the journal that I found the other day thank you for pointing that out um I haven't it's been seven years since I
00:58:49
wrote that so maybe now it's bothering you can see it in your face really yeah
00:58:56
it does it does she was on that list of amends
00:59:03
that I had to make back in 2016. and I made amends with everyone on that list
00:59:09
apart from her and I see her quite often and there'll be times where I feel like I want to say something because there's
00:59:17
not even anything specific that happened it's just the way that I was behaving at
00:59:23
the time that I was in the height of my of my destruction and
00:59:29
she had just moved from Zimbabwe to here and I was always her favorite cousin and
00:59:37
we were so close and she was so excited to see me and to see me after all of
00:59:42
these years and when she came she didn't meet the me that she remembered
00:59:48
and I noticed that very early on and now we're much older seven years
00:59:54
later I can still see that there's a part of her that feels
01:00:01
hot in some way and I know that there's something that I can do and say to sort of break that
01:00:08
but I just there's a lot of resistance around it because in my family
01:00:15
they're just certain conversations we don't have but I've been starting to have those conversations with some family members but she's just the one
01:00:22
person that I haven't done it with yet why
01:00:33
I think there's almost a fear of the unknown of what our relationship will look like
01:00:38
Beyond this and I know we can sound mad because someone listening to this might think just have the conversation I'm a
01:00:43
huge advocate for conversations that are uncomfortable but when it comes to this for whatever
01:00:49
reason there's a fear of the unknown even though I know that the unknown is going
01:00:55
to be potentially a stronger relationship so you could say there's always a
01:01:02
an element of self-sabotage when it comes to this but it's a fear of some kind of unknown around that
01:01:11
any advice well I I mean I struggle with the same thing so let's not pretend that
01:01:17
I'm perfect in this Arena but what's some of the advice that sometimes helps reframe the decision is you know taking
01:01:24
myself to the to my deathbed and thinking about the decisions I would if this was if I was laying there and this
01:01:30
was the last moments of my life would I what decision would I wish I would have made on this particular situation yeah
01:01:36
that's quite clarifying and it also it also cuts out this kind of unconscious
01:01:41
feeling that I think we all have that there'll always be time to do it yes we can always do it next year yeah but we
01:01:47
don't live forever unfortunately right we live under the illusion that we do that's why there's a sand timer on there it's just a nice reminder to me that I'm
01:01:53
actually not infinite I'm finally and so that gives me a little bit of urgency to
01:01:58
make um to live in a less Petty Way in a more a way that's more aligned with like my inner truth and my own values so yeah
01:02:04
what would your you know if this were if you would touch wood diagnosed with something today and you you said you
01:02:10
know what I'm gonna get my home in order um would you have that conversation I would
01:02:15
absolutely have that conversation and you know what I'm grateful very grateful that you and I have just had this
01:02:22
exchange because when I found that journal a few days ago and I saw that entry saying I need to speak to her
01:02:29
I wrote I'm going to do this this week and I finished the entry with
01:02:37
if I don't do this I'll never know what our relationship can be I'm going to do
01:02:42
this this week and it was seven years ago I'm gonna [ __ ] do it this week
01:02:49
you're gonna get a message from me saying she no longer talks to me she's blocked me on Instagram
01:02:56
that's what the unknown was about wow my goodness and you know again what
01:03:04
you've just done is hold a mirror up to side because I can feel a sort of tightness in my chest
01:03:11
but I also feel kind of like a relief in my shoulders at the same time so it
01:03:16
feels quite conflicting but it makes sense um because you've just held a mirror up to
01:03:22
me because in every other area of my life whether it's business or life or writing I'm very sure I can have any
01:03:30
type of conversation I'm very assured and confident and know exactly what I
01:03:36
need to do but it's amazing how in certain areas there's still that sort of childlike or I can't I can't do this
01:03:43
it's too much that's too big that's why having someone even in a brief exchange that can hold a mirror up
01:03:50
to that part of you and just ask just one question without asserting or trying
01:03:55
to put forward a specific thing you should do
01:04:00
um just a question that can kind of make you think oh I hadn't actually thought about that
01:04:07
I mean I've got those things in my life too so like of course I have I've got conversations that I just we all we put
01:04:13
off for various reasons and yeah I think one of the things as well that I that I often ask myself is like if you get too
01:04:18
tied up in the outcome and it all come becomes outcome dependent what are they going to say how's it going to be you
01:04:24
probably never make the decision but if it becomes based on like why do I need to do this for myself yeah
01:04:29
irrespective of outcome you know what I mean then you start living more in your truth yeah and the second point I was
01:04:35
going to say is that tightness in your chest it's an interesting thing because whenever we find ourselves in those
01:04:40
situations where something is making us uncomfortable or you know you described as a tightness in the chest yeah the
01:04:45
tightness in the chest is not gonna um doesn't leave us because we ignore it it just it it's like this little
01:04:51
Insidious Force inside of us that will lead us up in little ways and we think often as I have in my past that if I
01:04:58
just suppress or compartmentalize that right it will that's the best way to deal with it I think the way that we
01:05:05
release whatever that tightness and the tightness in the chest is such a good indicator it means we've got work to do
01:05:11
right right because think about that analogy like that conversation didn't put the tightness in your chest the
01:05:16
tightness was already there yeah the tension was already there yes you just it just came to the surface yes
01:05:22
so the way to never have the tightness again is to release the the thing the thing the young
01:05:29
addressed yeah one of the things I've heard you talk about a lot is your your journey and
01:05:35
your evolving relationship with sex and sexuality and how that changed from when
01:05:43
you were very young through the period when you were drinking a lot um till today can you talk to me about
01:05:49
that Evolution and what you've learned about those topics that might benefit me yes absolutely
01:05:57
so I'm going to
01:06:02
sort of keep referring to my sobriety in that period of my life because it was so
01:06:07
transformative and it revealed so much to me so much
01:06:12
that I could have never imagined at the time so something that also happened when I got sober I think this was about
01:06:18
a year into my sobriety I realized just how much sexual shame I
01:06:24
was holding so much of it and I initially sort of wanted to fix it
01:06:32
wanted to do something about it what are some surface level things that I can do what can I read what can I sort of dive
01:06:37
into how can I deal with it from where I am now as a 25 year old but I quickly
01:06:43
realized that I actually had to trace it back to see where it even comes from and I realized just like so many things it
01:06:51
did come from my childhood being raised in a Christian home I learn again not directly more so
01:06:58
indirectly that being a sexual being was not something that was of God it was not
01:07:05
something that was supposed to be a part of who I am pleasure was never discussed sex was never discussed even
01:07:13
Intimacy in general I never saw my parents hold hands I never saw my parents hold hands I never saw them kiss
01:07:20
I never saw them hug I never saw any sort of affection but I knew that they
01:07:26
loved each other I knew that they cared about each other but affection and intimacy I just never saw that Not For a
01:07:32
Moment did you see that growing up um
01:07:37
it's a really interesting one because I'd say I'd say yes and no so I say yes
01:07:43
because below the age of maybe eight maybe I could've got memories of that and then above the age of 10
01:07:51
um no and I call my parents by their first names okay I really struggled with with intimacy because of the exact same
01:07:58
reasons right even the word best friend made me cringe until the age still kind of makes me cringe now
01:08:05
like when people would say it or call me their best friend this is part of me like Steven meets like it's just a bit
01:08:11
even boyfriend would make me like ah prison me too that's why when I found the word
01:08:18
partner I was like okay yeah stand next to each other we don't
01:08:25
oh my goodness so when I sort of wanted to really understand where a lot of the
01:08:31
sexual shame was stemming from or just more so even outside of sex intimacy
01:08:36
intimacy feeling very disconnected to other people when it came to intimacy but also from myself
01:08:43
I realized that I could only be expressive as a sexual being if I was
01:08:48
drunk or if I was high if I was in that place where of course my inhibitions are low but I had no insecurities I didn't
01:08:56
have to feel like I'm doing something wrong I didn't have to feel like my pleasure was wrong but then when I got
01:09:02
sober all of those things came to the surface and then I I had to look that in the eye so that also became something
01:09:09
that I started sharing over time as well as sort of sharing my journey with sobriety I then started sharing the
01:09:15
things that were revealed as a byproduct of me getting sober and sexual shame was
01:09:21
a huge one was a big part of that my relationship with sex has evolved a lot yeah over over time I think it was early
01:09:28
in my early years influenced by porn yes for many people so me too that's the way I went into the game in trying to be
01:09:35
those those male porn stars right and I think over time and I think there's this wider issue in our society
01:09:41
specifically I've got to be honest with men yes um what they think that what they think sex
01:09:48
is in terms of this kind of very aggressive often dominating
01:09:54
transactional um encounter yeah and then there's you
01:10:00
know again I'm just I'm just talking freely I don't give a [ __ ] whatever please do please but I'm seeing a lot in
01:10:06
my in my close friends they're all in relate they're often in relationships not all of them where they're having
01:10:13
problems with their sexual relationship with their partner they're basically saying things
01:10:18
to me and I'd say this is crazy I'd say 75 to 80 of my male friends are saying my partner doesn't want to have sex she
01:10:25
doesn't like having sex yeah and I was there at one point too my partner said that to me at 1.2 yeah and I took it on
01:10:32
face value I thought they don't like sex what I came to learn
01:10:37
is that wasn't true but that what what I'd learned to be sex and what I was bringing as sex this kind of aggressive
01:10:44
you know whatever was not yes the language that they spoke
01:10:49
right and I feel like I'm surrounded by men that need to start seeing sex as a
01:10:55
language because then you can ask yourself well actually she's speaking Spanish and I'm speaking English that's why it's not she doesn't like English
01:11:01
she just doesn't she speaks a different language yeah I mean yes that's a lot I'm just dumping that on YouTube no that
01:11:08
resonates so and I'm I'm really glad that you said this because I think you're speaking something that is on so
01:11:14
many people's minds or something that they've just never really put language to and a big part of my
01:11:20
Awakening if you will and really addressing that sexual shame is because I also learned sex from porn at 10 years
01:11:28
old 10 years old so by the time that I had sex for the first time when I was 14 it was very much like a porn performance
01:11:36
to put it very simply and I speak to so many people men and women about this very specific thing a lot of us learn
01:11:43
that we should perform that sex should be driven by orgasm and ejaculation and
01:11:50
this sort of production if you will which is not actually accurate for most
01:11:55
people when it comes to what really actually feels pleasurable especially for women so I started to realize when I
01:12:01
got sober that every time that I was having sex for example I faked every single orgasm it was all a perform I
01:12:08
didn't know much about my body because I'd learned from porn and because the men that I was with had also learned
01:12:15
from porn we were just in a performance and no one's actually talking about it right so in time times when I was in
01:12:22
relationships and I made myself think I don't want to have sex I don't want to have sex anymore it actually was not
01:12:28
that I didn't want to have this type of pornified sex that's what I actually
01:12:33
meant so what you just said is really important and I realized that's when I found tantric sex actually yeah that's
01:12:40
when I found tantric sex around 2018 because I realized that I had always
01:12:46
felt like sex was being done to me yes that I was not a part of it and that is
01:12:51
how most women feel I I felt like I needed to apologize yeah because that's what that's what I
01:12:58
came to learn yeah was that the the reason why the person I was with had
01:13:05
turned around to me and said I don't like having sex is and when we got talking about it after I acted like I
01:13:12
mean let me be clear the first time she said that I did not understand my little Neanderthal monkey brain went uh like I
01:13:19
was emasculated by it yeah it made me feel what is this something that I was I didn't know of course ended up breaking
01:13:26
up but this person got back with this person a year later when I was maybe a bit more mature I apologized and I said I want to have a
01:13:32
conversation and I also said to her that I'm going to be here regardless of whether we have sex or not yes and then
01:13:38
she could she had a safe enough space to start talking to me about it and what I discovered is she'd been with
01:13:43
should I add three previous boyfriends over the course of seven years her view of sex was this person comes
01:13:49
and takes from you treats you like this object and he was with him for five years treats you like an object takes
01:13:56
what they want from you and then he was actually going and cheating on her as well right so Not only was he taking he
01:14:01
was then like hurting her and that cycle just repeated her relationship with what sex is was really really toxic she
01:14:08
didn't like that yes she didn't want that anymore yes and that's what she and me probably referred to as this word sex
01:14:15
so it was kind of like learning a new language of sex and what it actually is she went from the place of like I don't
01:14:22
have sex anymore to absolutely loving to have sex yeah I didn't think it was possible I thought
01:14:27
if they don't like sex dump them yes you know I'm gonna go find someone else right that will let me take yes and you
01:14:34
know what you you've articulated that so beautifully in terms of sex being a language and it's going to
01:14:42
look different for every single person because something that I realized is that I could tell when I was with a man
01:14:48
sexually I could tell if they were sort of if it was like a script almost like a
01:14:54
play-by-play like this is exactly the method we do this we do that switch into this switch into that it wasn't sort of
01:15:01
flowing and very intuitive as to what's actually needed in that moment which reminded me of porn and I would also
01:15:08
realize actually and this is something that I've spoken about so much because I ended up um starting a sexual wellness
01:15:14
company called Cherry Revolution over time and I realized that even some of the
01:15:19
positions I would get in were very much like porn because certain positions in porn are like that because
01:15:26
the camera is there not because it's comfortable because that's the shot for the viewer to be able to see it so when
01:15:33
I started to see that I'm starting to replicate this in my most intimate private moments but we're both doing it
01:15:41
I made myself believe that I didn't enjoy sex so then drinking and drugs and
01:15:46
everything that came with it I felt like those were the moments that I could be
01:15:52
fully expressive without needing to perform which is very interesting because you would think it would be the opposite that I would then perform more
01:15:58
but I felt as if I could actually speak my mind if I didn't enjoy something can
01:16:04
we try this can I do this instead or I just want to give or I just want to receive can we be slower and then when I
01:16:10
was sober I felt like I couldn't say those things because if I say to you as my partner I might be emasculating you I
01:16:17
might be embarrassing you you might think something is wrong so I would just perform and you're performing as well
01:16:23
and then it just causes a huge disconnect so tantric sex was the first
01:16:28
thing that I came across that made me realize and really articulated that sex is actually not a specific destination
01:16:35
did you know that you can actually enjoy sex without uh ejaculation that you can
01:16:40
have a full body orgasm that you can be very slow that foreplay can be the main
01:16:45
thing that you do that you can experience orgasm without penetration just so many different ways of
01:16:52
articulating that experience of sex and it's just that an experience and that changed so much for me it's
01:17:00
such a sort of a narrative violation for so many people who've spent their whole life watching porn and then yeah
01:17:06
recreating it this idea that you can have an orgasm from touch that you can use energy to to cause
01:17:12
someone yeah orgasmic pleasure and yeah um yeah I do that's it's a really important
01:17:18
topic that I think people need to talk about a lot more and I think just just saying to someone that's listening to this that might be in a relationship
01:17:23
where they're not they're in a sexless relationship yes just proposing the idea that what if you both just speak there's
01:17:30
just say there was ten languages what if you're just speaking the wrong language right you know what I mean and what
01:17:35
approach would you then take you'd probably try and learn the language yes yes and also communicate to them what
01:17:41
language you speak and see and see how you can be bilingual I guess yeah you
01:17:46
know what it it reminds me of um are you familiar with Love Languages and and that that whole thing yes I realized
01:17:53
that a lot of people expect someone to give in the way that
01:18:00
they like to receive you know so no one really says okay how do you like to
01:18:06
receive love how do you like to give love and the moment that I started asking those questions even though I
01:18:12
believe I [ __ ] cringed in the beginning I'm like really if I get it but you get used to it yeah and if they
01:18:19
run off it's Stephen it's been a game changer to just ask the person that I'm dating or
01:18:25
my current partner to be like how do you like to be loved how do you like to receive love and how do you like to give it
01:18:31
um because just those simple questions can change so much and then you can use the same with sex what do you like and
01:18:38
what do you not like what have you changed your mind about what do you like to do now and again or maybe not so much
01:18:44
sometimes um how much time do you need how does your arousal actually work and I know
01:18:49
that some people might not know how to answer these questions for themselves so it's actually very good to start asking
01:18:55
yourself those questions before was speaking about it with someone else these are questions that you can just
01:19:00
start to ask yourself before introducing them to someone else but they can they can change so much because I think we
01:19:07
get into relationships and make so many assumptions based on our individual
01:19:13
experiences and our world view and we expect the person we're with to reflect
01:19:18
the exact same thing back to us but we don't we don't ask questions it comes back in many respects what we
01:19:25
were talking about earlier this kind of binary approach to life they either fit or they don't uh-huh there's no space
01:19:31
for conversation and nuance and and and I guess um Mutual development together like
01:19:37
towards the same this idea that you have to actually build and develop a relationship towards a place of
01:19:43
um satisfaction as opposed to finding your perfect soul mate or perfect fit right I'm gonna find someone that likes
01:19:49
to have sex like I do that likes to talk like I do that likes the things I do as opposed to this kind of molding towards
01:19:54
being more cohesive together I love that term Mutual development and it makes me
01:20:00
think actually that this is a term that can apply even outside maybe even
01:20:05
especially outside of romantic relationships this idea that people don't have to be perfect that they don't
01:20:11
have to exist in the way that I want the world to be or in how I expect them to be maybe we can actually mutually
01:20:18
develop a different perspective together because we're two different beings coming together
01:20:23
my most successful relationship my current relationship we are completely different really we don't believe the
01:20:29
same things we don't believe the same we don't have the same fundamental beliefs yeah
01:20:35
the reason why it works is because of one very simple thing communication a very healthy high
01:20:41
respect communication yeah where everything isn't an attempt to win it's an attempt to like genuinely understand
01:20:47
to move forward yeah and I think you can have two people that are that went very very different things whether it's in
01:20:52
sex or in business or their beliefs about religion and spirituality be bound together as long as they have respectful
01:20:58
communication I agree you know what I mean I guess empathy is part of respective education yeah this is a bit of a left field question but it just
01:21:04
came into my head yeah because I remember a previous guest writing this in the diary after they left
01:21:09
very left field what is the pain that you enjoy having oh
01:21:16
I won't give my x-rated answer let me think of
01:21:22
what is um I experience a lot of growing pains now
01:21:29
more than ever now as my especially in the past I would say four years as the work that I do in
01:21:36
the world reaches more people and as I'm I'm constantly stretched in a lot of
01:21:42
ways which I really do enjoy but it challenges my sense of self I think
01:21:49
sometimes it can feel painful to shed aspects of my identity
01:21:55
and I actually enjoy that I enjoy that because it is part of my growth process and this is not a PR answer or anything
01:22:02
like it's the absolute truth I experience there's the discomfort that I experienced but sometimes it's painful
01:22:09
because it means that I have to make decisions that scare me it means that I
01:22:15
have to allow myself to be fully seen and really step into that idea of being visible
01:22:21
um and with a with visibility comes a lot of vulnerability as well so I think
01:22:27
that is a pain that I enjoy and will gladly accept and then the x-rated thing
01:22:33
that I will not say that's that's the thing no no this one I'll keep to myself thank you we just want to monetize this
01:22:39
episode can I can I turn the question back onto
01:22:45
you of course you can what is the pain that you enjoy the gym now I'm joking
01:22:51
no um the first answer that came to mind quite honestly was heartbreak and I tell
01:22:57
you why because heartbreak feels like the most intense pain that I think I've ever experienced
01:23:02
the most all-consuming um like black hole that I've ever been in is just like having my heart broken
01:23:08
but at the same time that pain for me is evidence of so much
01:23:13
it's evidence of my ability to feel so deeply and so I almost feel sorry for people that never get to have a
01:23:19
heartbreak because you never get to feel the full what I think to be the full spectrum of your heart so it's not
01:23:25
something that I would ever wish for but it's something that is a real indicator that I had a chance to feel so strongly
01:23:30
a bit of a weird answer but no no no not at all not at all thank you
01:23:36
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honestly it's been one of the real sort of game changers in my business what ideas or beliefs do you hold to be
01:24:43
true that pretty much everyone else disagrees with things that you are sure are true yeah
01:24:50
but most people I'll tell you one of the biggest ones that uh most people didn't like a couple of
01:24:57
years ago when I said um that is a black person I'm not oppressed
01:25:04
and I mean you could say that anywhere else in the world and it'll be like yeah of course we we understand but people
01:25:12
maybe a small minority but a very loud minority especially at that time where
01:25:17
everything was so overly politicized really didn't like me saying that as a
01:25:24
black person here in the Western World having have come from Zimbabwe a country
01:25:29
that is the population is genuinely truly oppressed and I know what that looks
01:25:36
like I'm I'm not oppressed I'm not oppressed because of my race I don't see my race as a burden yes there are things
01:25:42
that I've experienced a lot of adversity that I've experienced I know the reality of what it means to live under the
01:25:49
systems that a lot of us do in and out of the western world I acknowledge all of that and at the same time I'm not
01:25:55
oppressed as a woman I'm not oppressed yes there are oppressive systems and
01:26:00
things that absolutely have to be questioned and looked at and there are many things that I advocate for where
01:26:06
people are truly oppressed FGM is an example I'm a huge advocate for working
01:26:13
with survivors of FGM female genital mutilation so I work with a lot of
01:26:18
groceries activists I do a lot of work around that so I understand what oppression looks like sex-based
01:26:24
oppression but for me as a woman I as an individual am not oppressed
01:26:29
um and I think a lot of people didn't like me saying that but for some reason
01:26:35
because I think some people saw it as me undermining
01:26:41
black people or undermining women which is very odd you know to to even
01:26:46
think about so I think that's something that is to me completely non-controversial that was seen as a
01:26:52
controversial statement to make maybe because of the climate at the time but that's one of the things that I can
01:26:58
think of that's a decision you're making it's a decision you're making not to feel not to label and stick it on your
01:27:04
chest again yes I'm an oppressed person yeah why are you making that decision
01:27:10
I think not I think I I know why I wasn't raised
01:27:16
to see myself as a victim I I just wasn't culturally or in my family home
01:27:22
or with everything that my family and I or I as an individual have been through I have never for one second apart from
01:27:29
the moments where I needed to misplace my own anger and outrage and blame onto
01:27:34
other people around me I never saw myself as a victim to the world so I think for me it's not even a conscious
01:27:41
decision that I have to be like okay um it just is I I don't see myself in that way I don't walk through the world
01:27:47
thinking that my skin color is a burden I know that there are things that I might experience because of it I'm very
01:27:54
aware of that I don't ignore that but I don't see that as the only truth or the
01:28:00
only side of the coin so it's always been quite easy for me to say that and a few years ago I did I never would have
01:28:06
had to declare anything like that at all but I think something happened especially in the past two years where
01:28:13
to even sort of see yourself as a powerful individual
01:28:18
means that you're taking away from other people yeah which is not truerto I've
01:28:24
just never seen myself as a victim ever ever and I won't I won't do it why not
01:28:32
there's a real cost to that just like we were talking about before there's a mental emotional spiritual cost to that
01:28:37
and I I just won't [ __ ] do it um and I think it's a lie it's a lie to make myself believe that I'm a victim
01:28:44
and that I'm oppressed and I I you know I'm a powerless individual I'm not I'm
01:28:49
not are you no I'm not I can tell yeah yeah that's
01:28:55
why you know it's I get asked this question a lot when I do talks is about you know discrimination Steve obviously
01:29:01
you know being a guy a man that was born in Africa I've got a black mother I'm I'm I guess I don't know what the
01:29:06
politically correct term is so I'll say the more mixed race Brown well I don't know what the correct term is so forgive
01:29:12
me uh half cast I don't know Brown okay yeah Brown I think you are
01:29:17
um did you not experience discrimination in business I get this question a lot and to me it's it's a fascinating
01:29:23
question because my brain goes I don't care yeah because I can't control it anyway yeah even if it were I'm sure
01:29:29
it's true I'm sure there's multiple moments in the rise of my career when I went into boardrooms and everyone there
01:29:34
was four times my age and white I'm sure there was um prejudices before I even opened my
01:29:40
mouth yeah that acted for and probably against me the thing is I can do nothing about them in terms of in that moment
01:29:46
and in my my day-to-day life I can't I can't cure your Prejudice or
01:29:51
discrimination and I don't think it's my responsibility to right I see my responsibility as like doing the best
01:29:57
that I can with where I am and with what I have and I then heard about this thing called labeling Theory where in Psychology if
01:30:04
you're given a label it then has a big impact on your future performance so yes if I call myself
01:30:10
um if I label myself as oppressed or at a disadvantage I will start acting like
01:30:15
I'm a disadvantaged person I'll show up with less confidence with more pessimism and um and all of those things are
01:30:22
probably going to be more harmful than the Discrimination itself absolutely so it was a it was it was a decision that
01:30:28
like to focus on what I can control on a on a macro level of course you fight every opportunity you have for equality
01:30:34
and to end systemic discrimination and to educate people better yeah from a
01:30:39
very early age and to change the way that media looks and to have more black podcasters as we've done a big campaign around and all of those things but on a
01:30:46
day-to-day do I want to burden myself as you say with um a label which I don't think will help will serve me right will
01:30:52
help me show up better the answer is unfortunate is no and that is my personal decision and yeah others can do
01:30:57
with their life what they wish to yeah um but I don't think it will serve me and you can again this goes back to
01:31:03
holding two truths you can you can choose not to be oppressed but then also fight for those that 100 will fight for
01:31:11
equality at the same time absolutely it's not to diminish the authenticity of the issue
01:31:16
um no and I I also another reason why I'm very Fierce about this um
01:31:22
is because I think as we have those conversations around representation Etc I think we do need to see more people
01:31:29
whether it's black brown what have you people that are in the minority depending on where they are
01:31:34
um I think we need to see them positioned as powerful Sovereign beings so the reason I'm very serious about the
01:31:42
conversations I have and saying no I'm not oppressed I do know what oppression looks like and I will continue to
01:31:48
Champion for as you say equality Etc but I it it's actually my responsibility to
01:31:55
claim my power as an individual who inhabits a black body it's actually my
01:32:00
responsibility this has to be a part of the representation conversation we can't always just want black people to step
01:32:08
forward to talk about the struggle because just like you say I started to notice actually that
01:32:14
every panel that I would get invited to do all the interviews it would start with something along the
01:32:19
lines of so Africa as a black woman yeah South Africa as a woman of color what
01:32:26
have you experienced nothing what if I haven't experienced any kind of what if I don't have some kind of story because
01:32:31
I started to find that it would put me into a position where I would kind of feel like I have to find a story where
01:32:38
something but what if nothing happened you know why can't I just be seen as a
01:32:45
writer as a consultant as a business owner as an entrepreneur without being a black entrepreneur or a black speaker or
01:32:51
all of which I really value and I see the importance in recognizing those things in those specific terms but why
01:32:59
does it have to be positioned in such a way where I have to look for adversity connected to my race so I've really
01:33:05
started to be very firm around that and to reject that and in in interviews to say I'm really curious to know why you
01:33:12
opened the question like that you know and sometimes people don't even realize they're doing it because they've
01:33:18
it's just become a script you know that would be a terrifying rebuttal if I if
01:33:25
I'd asked you that I was and I was not in a minority
01:33:31
right I'd be terrified because you're right there's there's almost this assumption that you're going to be the
01:33:37
voice of Oppression on this battle so we're gonna come to the yeah depressed now and we're going to ask you about
01:33:42
oppression right so I think there's a bit of cognitive distance where then someone like me says actually no I'm not
01:33:48
oppressed people don't kind of know what to do with you then it is really yeah
01:33:53
Violet's a bunch of narratives right and that's a good thing
01:33:59
Who You Are no Africa you are but you and don't
01:34:05
forget that and be but Stephen that happens yeah I know that happens in some messages that you get how how can I deny
01:34:11
how can you deny that you're oppressed I've had people tell me
01:34:16
um so that's very interesting because it tends to be white people a lot of the time that do that
01:34:23
because they they kind of and in a way I sort of can understand where they're coming from and that they really want to
01:34:29
stand up for something they really believe um this idea that every single person that
01:34:35
fits into this identity Market thinks and behaves and has had this experience so they don't then realize that they've
01:34:43
become quite regressive in their quest to be Progressive which is very it's
01:34:48
very interesting I had the most interesting conversation
01:34:54
um about racism on Twitter many years ago where um
01:35:00
I think the I think the trending topic of the day was like you can't speak you can't tell a black person what racism is
01:35:07
or something like that and so and I'm saying well no like racism can go both ways I I can be racist to a white person
01:35:13
yes I can be I can not give someone a job because they're white I can discriminate against them purely based
01:35:19
on their skin color I can be and this one this this lady online was arguing with me basically saying no white people
01:35:25
can't tell a black person what racism is she was saying that to me and I literally you're telling me
01:35:31
what racism is right now yeah and that is totally okay yes and she apologized she went you're completely right I
01:35:36
should never have spoken she literally went I should never have told you what racism is she got herself caught in her
01:35:41
own right because she abandoned truth and she just started falling in line with this like yeah binary nonsense
01:35:46
narrative that white people can't talk about races yeah what are you [ __ ] talking about yes
01:35:52
to be honest as well like I'm half white right I've got this luxury I can shape-shift
01:35:58
so yeah so does that mean because I'm half white I can only half talk about racism right because it's also racist
01:36:04
just to say that I'm black that's just picking one half of my identity right so see how this entire thing falls apart
01:36:10
the more that you sort of you interrogate interrogate anyway you blowing it it just [ __ ] crumbles
01:36:16
because it's just [ __ ] it's propped up [ __ ] by people that are virtually signaling right just don't know what
01:36:21
they think or believe so they've just gone with the cult it's like yeah it's the script it's the script that's why I
01:36:26
think um questioning and it can seem so simple but questioning can really allow you to sort
01:36:33
of snap out of this trance because a lot of it is it's a trance it's a script that people repeat and you regurgitate
01:36:40
that interrogation right it's like you wake up in the morning you go to your like your side and then they give you
01:36:47
the the beliefs the 174 beliefs that you have to believe and you go okay cool got it and you you don't even look at it you
01:36:53
just insert it in your little it's like a SIM card they just put it in your brain and you never understand why you believe these things because they're not
01:36:59
your beliefs yeah someone said to me one day they said um if you if you believe the same things as everybody around you
01:37:06
they're not your beliefs and it was a really interesting thing because it's true that's powerful but think if you
01:37:12
believe every if you believe pretty much everything that everyone around you believes they are not to your beliefs they're the beliefs of the society you
01:37:18
lived in if I moved you to Germany at a certain time you might well have had a different set of beliefs
01:37:24
exactly you know what I mean yes or if I moved you back to the you know in my history's Goods the 16th century when
01:37:29
slavery was Rife yes and you you had a slave you might have believed it completely different set of things but
01:37:35
okay and normal so beliefs there's there's very little correctness to it to many of them
01:37:41
if happiness is this recipe that contains all of these essential ingredients in order for you to make the
01:37:47
the dish of happiness what is your recipe
01:37:54
which ingredients are you currently lacking for that recipe
01:38:02
which ingredients am I lacking for the recipe of happiness
01:38:09
you said that much clearer than I did I should just use that
01:38:15
just before we take that when she's gone
01:38:21
no question um vulnerability
01:38:26
yeah really really I would surprise a lot of people yeah and it's tied to what
01:38:33
I mentioned around romantic relationships yeah
01:38:38
allowing myself to be more vulnerable I think that could
01:38:47
allow me to have access to layers of happiness that I haven't yet experienced
01:38:56
that's what comes to mind but it's a it's a it feels like a very big question
01:39:03
because I think it makes you well it makes me have to think about even just with the word luck it makes me have to
01:39:09
sort of turn that mirror onto myself
01:39:15
um yeah but I think honestly I'm able to be vulnerable in so many other areas but if
01:39:20
I think about the happiness that I could experience in terms of romance vulnerability
01:39:27
it's funny when you think it when you're answering that question I was thinking about the analogy of ingredients and one
01:39:32
of the things that um makes a recipe go bad isn't a lack of ingredients it's the wrong quantities
01:39:39
yes which is probably what people call balance yes if I put a fourth egg in
01:39:44
when it says three eggs the recipe goes bad right so as I think about that in terms of balance you think about the
01:39:50
scales of ingredients that you're weighing up you've got to get the right quantities of each ingredient in order to make a great recipe sometimes I think
01:39:57
in my case I maybe have too much of I have too many eggs yeah you know what I mean too many eggs in the basket I have
01:40:02
too much professional commitments and I've I've I don't have enough sugar which is maybe romance and that kind of
01:40:10
connection yes so maybe one can have all the ingredients there but just have the complete wrong quantities yes to ruin
01:40:16
the the recipe that's a good one we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the
01:40:22
next guest what is the crazy
01:40:27
big idea you would try
01:40:33
if you knew you could not fail I want to start off first of all or a
01:40:40
huge annual event that is a place for all of us to express our Unthinkable
01:40:45
thoughts and it's going to be a place for people to
01:40:51
come and see what honest raw and filtered respectful compassionate
01:40:56
communication looks like in real time and
01:41:03
I want this to become something that is global I want it to become
01:41:09
something that has a life of its own outside of me and
01:41:14
I've wanted to do this for a very very long time
01:41:19
um and I know that I'd be able to do it very well
01:41:25
but I think it's it feels scary because I know that I could do it very well
01:41:32
yeah and I've never shared that out loud um I'm not sure if I understand that
01:41:37
last part it was still scary because I know I can do it yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense to me it does really yeah
01:41:44
and I'll tell you what I mean by that it's almost like that feeling that I was telling you off when I would get emails
01:41:50
and offers to speak for half an hour which comes so easily to me and get paid so much money
01:41:56
so I would resist it because I know that I can do it and I know that I'm going to get rewarded so much from it
01:42:03
which means that there's a leap in identity that has to happen which feels
01:42:09
quite scary so it's almost the same with this event and this idea that I have and
01:42:15
it's it seems as you say like it doesn't make sense it's scary because you know that it's going to succeed it's scary
01:42:21
because you know that it's going to work um and something that I've had to work on over time is the fear of success
01:42:29
yeah so this event and this thing that I want to do is sort of linked to that it's a
01:42:36
barrier that I have to break and will um so yeah what a great question
01:42:44
Africa thank you um I wanted to speak to you because I saw so much so much nuance and truth and
01:42:52
um importance in the way that you communicate but also watch you communicate and so it's very rare these
01:42:58
days that I will DM someone out of the blue and say you should come on my podcast yeah and that is just a for me
01:43:03
that is a um a sign of how much I respect what you're doing and how important I think
01:43:10
it is to have conversations that are you know there are Unthinkable thoughts and
01:43:15
that are fearless and that are um challenging whether they are right or whether they are wrong I'm a big believer in just being able to have the
01:43:22
conversation because I think that is the starting point of progress where you can where two ideas can Clash and then they
01:43:27
can merge and find the truth and move forward as maybe one shared idea um and there's not enough of that there's not
01:43:33
enough people like you that are doing that so you I have a suspicion I have a very big suspicion that you are going to
01:43:40
be a very important voice on a global level and that you are going to be a star I really believe that
01:43:46
because you're very rare and it's an important rare it's a very important round it's a
01:43:52
it's a hopefully it's a flourishing type of rare but it's it feels like it's become a bit of a Dying Breed of rare
01:43:58
and people that are willing to have conversations um regardless of how they might be perceived right by
01:44:05
those that receive those those conversations so thank you for being that voice in society and I think this
01:44:11
is just the start of our friendship if I feel that might make you cringe because yeah friendship please more of them we are
01:44:19
best friends yeah let's say okay we'll revisit that yeah we'll get back Stephen
01:44:24
thank you um you know what I was saying to my friend Emily that I
01:44:30
was really just looking forward to this conversation because especially in the time where everything
01:44:36
is so heavily politicized and people are sort of lead with identity and what it
01:44:41
means to be a certain person I think I was just really looking forward to having this conversation with you
01:44:46
because of the work that you do beyond the work in itself your curiosity and
01:44:51
your willingness to sort of learn and to be open and to change your mind and to be corrected and to also be assertive
01:44:57
but to also be soft and to just allow for ideas to exist openly without
01:45:03
disagreeing or agreeing just hearing I think it's yeah I think it is you know
01:45:08
something that is quite rare but I think through conversations like this it actually causes a beautiful ripple
01:45:13
effect so I I do think this is the start of a friendship so thank you thank you
01:45:21
I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast for many years people have been asking for a coffee
01:45:27
flavored Hill and quite recently he'll release the iced coffee caramel flavor of their um ready to drink Hills and
01:45:34
I've just become hooked on it over the last couple of weeks I've been on a really interesting Journey with huel which I've described and talked about a
01:45:41
little bit on this podcast I started with the berry ready to drinks then I moved over to the protein salted caramel
01:45:46
because it's 100 calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein you need and now I'm
01:45:53
balanced between them both I drink mostly the banana flavor ready to drink I've got really into the iced coffee
01:45:59
caramel flavor of Jules ready to drink and now I'm drinking that as well as the protein make sure you try the new ready
01:46:06
to drink flavors that the caramel flavor is amazing the new banana flavor as well is amazing and obviously as I said the
01:46:12
iced coffee caramel flavor has been a real Smash Hit [Music]
01:46:24
[Music] thank you
01:46:29
[Music]
