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this is a critical conversation around truly the future of humanity but we don't like to talk about this this
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report is absolutely shocking this is a crisis and young men are struggling so I sat down with two leading voices on
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societal issues to discuss the rise of millions of lonely addicted men and the most important question is how do we fix
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this so let's start with this graph it shows that young women are now out earning young men it is true we have
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given women so many tools to achieve but now boys are being left behind and the number of males aged 16 to 24 who are
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not in education employment has increased by staggering 40% and the data I've seen is that when the woman in the
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relationship starts making more money they become twice as likely to get divorced because traditionally women seek Partners who have more economic or
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social status than they do and emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating but these guys were raised not to
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be emotionally intelligent but to be a provider that a lack of male involvement in kids lives is a big factor leading to
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this and once they lose a male role model they become much more likely to engage in criminal activity and so we are just creating a lot of these angry
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young single men who are saying well this is rigged against me we actually asked some of audience to write in and
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this guy Jeffrey wrote in and said my entire life I have never felt like I was good enough like I could never earn my
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place in society it's devastating but something that's controversial I got push back on I think the secret weapon
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for men that they don't Leverage is to I want to hear a woman's perspective on it honestly what I would do is
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this has always blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the
00:01:37
show so could I ask you for a favor before we start if you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you
00:01:43
can do just that is by hitting the Subscribe button and my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to
00:01:50
make sure that this show is better for you every single week we'll listen to your feedback we'll find the guest that
00:01:55
you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do thank you so much [Music]
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Lost Boys in March 2025 the center of social justice released this report which is sent a couple of shock waves across the UK especially across the media and just
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to give you a little bit of a sort of preface and some context on what this report says at the start of the report
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Andy cook who's the CEO of the report says we listen to those working on the front line the teachers the youth
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workers the Charities and the parents who day in day out see the of young people and in recent years they've been
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telling us the same thing something is going on with our boys and because of this they wrote this report called The Lost Boys which looks at all of the the different facets of why young men are struggling and in this report they say
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boys are struggling in education they're more likely to take their own lives they're finding it more difficult to
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find stable work and far too often they're cour in crime the numbers don't lie something has shifted and we cannot
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ignore it any longer it's not just about about and youate or online influences these are symptoms not the cause the
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deeper truth is that too many boys are growing up without the guidance discipline and purpose they need to survive and there's some frankly
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horrific graphs which actually sent the CEO of my company A lady called Georgie um into quite an emotional state she she
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texted me and told me she was crying look looking at some of these graphs which we'll talk about today but this is a subject that I know both of you know
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very very well so I'm Keen to get into exactly why this is happening and what we can do about it but the preface this
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discussion to understand where you both come from and the perspective you have Logan who are you yes and what do you do I'm a behavioral scientist term dating coach so that means that I take all the
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lessons from the field of Behavioral Science how we make decisions and then I apply them to the field of relationship
00:03:48
science which is how love works and so I'm really passionate about this topic because for a long time I've found that
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wherever I go people say oh I know all these great single women do you know any great single guys and I just thought oh
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okay maybe that's always been happening but when I actually dug into the data I saw that we are truly in a dating crisis
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right now and there is a huge mating gap between the type of men that women are looking for and the type of men that are
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available this is a critical conversation around truly the future of humanity because marriage rates are down
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that means birth rates are down and so this conversation is extremely important and what sort of reference points do you Drew up on because you've got some sort of unique access to data
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right right so I work at hinge for the last five years and so I accessed to tons of data there around how daters are
00:04:38
dating now how daters are dating differently what sets successful daters apart and then I also have conducted my
00:04:44
own research for this conversation so I sent out a survey to thousands of my newsletter subscribers and people were
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very excited to talk about this and I've conducted a lot of new research that I'll be sharing for the first time on
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this topic um so I make my living at data and trying to come up with insights I spent most of my career looking at data to try and make add shareholder value and then I have the luxury now
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focusing on things I'm really interested in and I just sort of stumbled upon data about it reflects that the cohort that
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is ascended fastest globally is women and this is a wonderful thing and a huge Collective Victory and the group that
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has fallen furthest fastest is men in Western markets and the data was just so overwhelming and also I was close to being one of these men I didn't have a
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lot of economic or romantic um prospects when I was a young man but there were programs and an environment where I could be successful and I worry that
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some of the Temptations of Technology the economic Trends uh had they been where they are now then I could have very easily ended up as statistic
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so I just sort of relate to these problems I'm Keen to understand from your perspectives
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what do you think like the first Domino that falls in a young man's life or a young boy's life that causes the
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outcomes we're talking about today like what is where is the first place to start so the research I've looked at in
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Richard Reeves from the American insute of boys in medicine good research here the the point of failure if you reverse engineered issues
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to is when a boy loses a male role model and that is in the US we have the second
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most single family uh parent homes behind Sweden and what's interesting is that in single parent homes girls
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actually have similar outcomes similar rates of High School attendance income rates of self harm boys once they lose a
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male role model become much more likely to be incarcerated engage in criminal activity harm themselves it ends up that
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while being physically stronger boys are emotionally and mentally much weaker so
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the loss of a male role model is I would argue kind of the first point of failure
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that predicts that a kid aort is going to struggle and that has impacts on Family Court economic policy and just
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general in our general zeis in our society where men need to step up if we want better men we need to be better men we need to step into that void another one that Richard Reeves talks about is that
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there's not enough men in the education system so I believe when Tim Waltz was a teacher one out of three teachers in his
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school was a man but now it's like 24% and so where do kids spend most of their time in school and who's teaching them
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mostly not men and it's and you think well women can be fantastic teachers and it's true but after school programs not
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as many coaches that t typically are M male not as much compensation so they don't get rewarded for being coaches and
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if you just think about it logically who ises a teacher Champion a teacher Champion is someone that reminds them of themselves when they were a kid so and
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also just look at the there's incredible bias I would argue against males in school a boy is twice as likely to be
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suspended on a behavior adjusted basis twice as likely to be suspended for the exact same infraction is a girl five
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times as likely if it's a black boy and so and once you're suspended twice it probably means you're not going to
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college in addition look at the behaviors we promote in school sit still be a pleaser be organized raise your
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hand you basically just described a girl and so and also quite frankly a lot of the jobs that require tertiary education attainment there's more women now in law school and medical school and quite
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frankly good for them they're just better at that they're better students they deserve to make more money they deserve it but the reality is it has
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huge ramifications when we no longer have wood Auto or metal shop they've gone away right so those used to be a
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past to do some middle- class jobs they've been replaced by computer science and so what are the paths for
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the two-thirds of males that aren't going to end up with a traditional liberal arts college degree right and
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just to add a few more stats to that so we know that 70% of valid tans in the US are female and women are much more
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likely to be in the top 10% of their class but then on the SAT men and women or young men and women earn the same scores so there's definitely something happening in schools that is
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prioritizing the female experience or that women are better at that we definitely want to celebrate the success
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of women I think the changes that have happened over the last 50 years are incredible and I feel like I'm a beneficiary of that and so is my
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daughter if you look at all of the books that my daughter was given when she was born they're about great women in
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history you can be anything dream big little one and so I feel like we have given women so many tools to achieve and
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in many ways those have been manifested but now boys are being left behind and so this isn't a zero some game I was
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nervous about coming on here because I thought people would say she's a male apologist she doesn't see how much women
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are still struggling I think everyone is struggling I think life is hard but what's happening right now is we need to
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have empathy for young men and we need to bring them up because this isn't just a problem about young men men and
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patriarchy doesn't just hurt women a lot of people think about the patriarchy as something that prizes men and hurts
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women but when there's a very narrow definition of men everyone is hurt by that and that's all the research that
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I've done is over and over seeing women feel like they are not enough good men to date and men feel like they're being held to a ridiculous standard of holding both sides of the coin being feminine
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and masculine it turns out as you were speaking I was looking at the stats around fatherless homes and it turns out
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that there has been a significant increase in the amount of young boys being raised without a father present about 25% live without a biological step
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or adoptive father according to the National Fatherhood Initiative in the US has the world's highest rate of children
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living in a single parent household and 92% of the time that's with the mother alone and in 1968 only 11% of children
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lived without lived with only their mother compared to 21% in 2020 so that's doubled in the last 50 odd years which is pretty pretty staggering
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and then obviously the consequence of that as Scott described is that individuals from farther absent homes
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were 300% more likely to carry drugs to carry guns to deal drugs um and all of and there's this huge plethora of mental health consequences if you don't have a father in the home I mean what do we do about that and like where are the
00:11:24
fathers yeah where are the role where are they going well it's it's complicated there's there's male abandonment there's just no getting around it but also going back to Family Court sometimes the
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courts in the finan you know our economy make it difficult for a man to stay involved in the kids's lives and
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also um you know family courts getting better at saying all right the kids I mean just a personal anecdote I uh have a friend who recently has gone through divorce two daughters very much wants to
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be involved in their lives they're 13 and 15 year old girl and quite frankly dad's there on the weekends and they got
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their own thing going on and they don't necessarily make dad a priority and dad's not around for what I call the garbage time and that is what I found with my boys is the moments of
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serendipity and connection happen randomly when you're taking them to school when you're out in the back you
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know jumping around or playing whatever it is these garbage moments and when you're not in the household for whatever
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reason there's just there isn't that much garbage time and I think slowly but surely they lose sometimes connection
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with their kid there's also there's something weird going on I'm curious Logan if youve got date on this but you
00:12:39
have a one-year-old daughter right you're G to be amazed when my 14y old boy had a Halloween party and the boys are like cute they're dopes they're boys
00:12:51
there's some 14-y old girls who look like they could be the junior senator from Pennsylvania they're 5'1 they're
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articulate hello Mr Galloway how are you with a love home the boys are like I don't know and and biologically girls
00:13:04
mature faster their prefrontal cortex is 18 months ahead of a boys an 18-year-old girl or woman is competing
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against a 16 and a half year old when she's competing against an 18yearold and they're even finding that it's getting
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worse that women or girls are starting to menstruate earlier and boys testicles are descending later so the Gap in
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maturity biological Gap they think might even be growing and they don't know if it's p pesticides but when I meet my uh eighth
00:13:34
graders colleagues there's a huge difference between yeah between us between the boys and the girls and Richard's one of Richard's suggestions is that we red shirt boys that we hold
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them a year back that boys start kindergarten at 6 whereas girls start at five so the research in the UK shows
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that 70% of girls are ready to start school at age five but many fewer boys boys are capable of starting at that age in terms of Readiness and so if you were to hold boys back then they might be on
00:14:06
more equal playing field for those critical moments of four to five of 13 to 14 where the brains really develop at
00:14:12
a different stage I want to talk about that sort of Early Education experience and how it can be adapted but also just like if the
00:14:19
environment of the classroom is right for boys as we were talking about the point about fathers at listeners as well I found this graph which is also pretty
00:14:25
shocking and it it goes into what you something you said Scott it basically shows that the absence of a father on a
00:14:32
boy causes depressive symptoms but the absence of a father on a young girl doesn't cause the same depressive symptoms which means that the absence of a father for a boy drastically increases
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their chance of being depressed whereas if for a girl it doesn't there's a lot of other graphs that look like that in
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terms of women and young girls are just actually a lot more resilient in childhood so if you are in foster care
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as a young woman you have less negative outcomes than young men and so there's this theory in parenting of is your a
00:15:03
child an orchid or a dandelion and so the Orchid really needs very particular situations to grow they need a certain amount of light they need to be watered in a particular way and they'll thrive in some situations and they will not
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thrive in others whereas a dandelion can really survive in many situations and so women young girls tend to be more
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dandelion in childhood and so that's why when you have a boy and a girl both in negative situations the boy is more
00:15:29
negatively impacted boys are just weaker there's a crazy stat I read that two uh
00:15:37
15-year-olds a boy and a girl both sexually molested and to be clear they're equally heinous crimes but the
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boy who's sexually molested is six to 10 times more likely to kill himself later in life it ends up that boys are just
00:15:48
less resilient do you think there's somehow more of a stigma there like I wonder why
00:15:55
that's talk about it uncomfortable feel there's inia there's a lack I mean I think just until a few years ago the social incentives were to never speak about it right I was on lwis house
00:16:07
podcast and he just openly said I was sexually abused as a child and it was so shocking for me wow to hear this big
00:16:14
handsome guy yeah I don't think he would have said it 10 or 20 years ago I think people would have assumed that it was his fault it made him less of a man so I
00:16:23
I think a lot of that has hopefully gotten better but we just have to acknowledge boys
00:16:29
mentally and emotionally are weaker than girls Lewis H didn't admit that until a
00:16:36
couple of years ago is that right so he's lived with that his whole life and wow it wasn't until he was I think
00:16:41
having dysfunction his relationships and a few other things had happened that he decided he wanted to say it publicly for the first time which again feeds into
00:16:48
your point we actually um asked some of our audience to write in and one of the people that wrote in was a teacher in a
00:16:55
primary SL preschool and she said to me she was an Anon teacher in Germany she says every year it seems like more and
00:17:02
more children always boys have this new energy to destroy the classroom dynamics
00:17:08
these boys almost always have two things in common a lack of boundaries at home an unsupervised unlimited access to all
00:17:14
kinds of content on the internet EG porn their perception of what is okay and what is Right becomes completely
00:17:20
distorted I have tried so many things and every year it's becoming an even bigger challenge
00:17:29
young boys in school so one proposal is to delay education for boys put them in education later is the classroom itself a problem like they're sitting in school
00:17:40
listening to someone speak at you someone proposed to me on this podcast before that boys need more sort of practical play and the classroom isn't
00:17:47
designed for that I wasn't sure if that was well in in single sex boy school they end up with double the amount of recess ton and that is they they have I I equate boys to dogs a happy dog is a
00:17:59
tired dog and if it's not tired if it doesn't get to run it's going to cause trouble and I feel the same way about
00:18:06
boys so in these schools where they decide what's best for the boys there's usually more exercise and more free play
00:18:12
and more rough housing co-ed schools and you're also seeing I think with boys I mean there's just we by even acknowledging that men play a
00:18:24
critical Ro role in boys' lives a few years ago that was seen as sexist what you mean what you're saying moms can't
00:18:31
do this and I can just tell you there are certain moments when my partner needs me to weigh in I don't know if
00:18:38
it's the depth of my voice my physical size the way they relate to me the fact that I'm not you need
00:18:45
Dad or that's what I found especially with boys they need almost like that that that not physical intimidation but it's almost like they begin tuning out their mom over time I
00:18:56
mean they're incredibly close to their mother that looked to her for n ing when they really have a problem I find the go to Mom but they will constantly test the
00:19:03
boundaries constantly and I think a lot of a lot of single mothers quite frankly
00:19:09
with boys just can't keep a lid on that kid they can't control the kid so and I think you're finding at schools when there's no male kind of I don't know involvement or that that I don't know
00:19:23
what I'll call physical presence and then you add on this dopa uh machine that they get used to squeezing a dopa bag a hundred times a day as they need it and then you take
00:19:34
the dopa bag away they're just more prone to emotional outbursts I'm curious if you've done any research around why that is that emotional Outburst more common among boys than girls I haven't
00:19:48
done that research but I am imagining that there's moms out there that are raising Boys on their own and they might
00:19:53
be like yes it is hard but what do I do right and so for that boy who isn't taught a lot of guys in school and isn't
00:20:00
in the Boy Scouts which doesn't exist anymore or doesn't have Big Brothers Big Sisters like what does that Mom do so with that you talk brought a Boy Scouts in America there's there's Scouts for
00:20:12
America and it can be boys and girls right but Girl Scouts have their own single sex but boy scouts aren't allowed
00:20:17
to have their own single sex so the question is all right you know what do you do and I think that we need a
00:20:23
societal zeist that says immediately if there's no longer a male involved we have to get other men involved and
00:20:29
acknowledge that that's not being sexist that that's you know that that's important that you get men involved and
00:20:35
I think so I came from a single parent household raised in by a single immigrant mother who lived and died a
00:20:41
secretary light of my life as soon as my dad was gone and then he had to move away for work she got other men involved
00:20:47
in my life and I had wonderful men involved in my life I had a stock Brer neighbor down the hall came in with his girlfriend and said you want to go hor horseback riding you take me horseback
00:20:57
riding I don't don't know if men would be comfortable doing that uh in today's age so getting men involved in their
00:21:04
lives after school programs Boy Scouts I had a lot of wonderful men I used to go camping you know and there were men
00:21:12
everywhere involved in my life and I I worri that a lot of those institutions yeah and also there's a reticence and a
00:21:19
hesitance for men to get involved in a boy's life that isn't theirs for fear they're going to be perceived as
00:21:25
something's wrong with them I was thinking that so if we have less men in the home raising the children and then
00:21:31
we go to school and the stat says that 72% of teachers in middle school are women as well there's no men at school
00:21:37
either it's no wonder that boys are struggling so severely at such a young early early age for so many reasons
00:21:43
because one would assume that they're being socialized in the same way as girls I'm seeing I've got a mother at home don't have a father I've got women
00:21:55
at school don't have male teachers I mean that's a controversial thing to say I'm sure it used to be but I think
00:22:01
people are waking up a little bit now we need more male teachers there's more there's more female fighter pilots per
00:22:07
capita the male kindergarten teachers there's just there's an absence there are some boys not some there are
00:22:13
millions of boys in America whose first male role model is a prison guard and there just no men in their lives after
00:22:19
school programs being cancelled no women very very few men K through 12 dad's not
00:22:25
around there are there are Community there are literally communities you read articles about it where it's like where
00:22:32
are the men yeah that's so I'm trying to figure out where are they online doesn't look like they're in
00:22:39
work they're not in college the reality is they're just AR for a lot of reasons a host of reasons male a lack of male involvement in kids lives is a big big
00:22:50
factor leading this there are other factors there's socioeconomic factors there's biological factors there's a
00:22:56
lack of vocational training there's Outsourcing of many of the jobs that made a a man's path to the middle class
00:23:03
viable you want to talk about the UK a big problem is a lack of growth yeah there's just not there's not a lot of
00:23:09
income opportunities for a young man who's not exceptional and what we've seen in the US is essentially if you
00:23:15
look at our economic policies and college it's never been better to be remarkable like if you're in the top 10%
00:23:22
if you're high school class you're going to make more money than the top 10% did
00:23:27
102 30 if you end up at Google you're you're going to make a kid at Google who's amazing computer science the can make millions of dollars by the time the 30 but I can prove to every one of us
00:23:38
mathematically that 99% of our children are not in the top 1% and our economic policies have basically said that school
00:23:45
and college is meant to identify a super class of 1centers that we're going to try and turn into billionaires instead of figuring out the infrastructure in the programs to ensure the bottom 90 have a shot of being at the top 10 and
00:23:57
one of the staff is just around uh College acceptance when I applied to UCLA the acceptance rate was
00:24:03
76% now it's 9% I was unremarkable for whatever reason prefrontal cortex single mother whatever you want to call it but back then they had the mission and the charge to let in unremarkable kids and
00:24:16
that's no longer the case because America's superpowers are optimism and we all believe our kids in that top 1%
00:24:24
and the reality is they're not or people think I like an economy where you can make a billion dollars because that's going to be me one day so they have ignored the fact that we are crowding
00:24:35
more and more prosperity and opportunity into the remarkable and I for me it comes down to what is what do we want in
00:24:42
America in UK do we want a super class of billionaires or do we want a society in an operating system that gives
00:24:47
unremarkable people a shot of being in the top 10% uh it's become win or take all and
00:24:54
we have purposely created a set of Economic and education policies that Crow a massive amount of prosperity into the top 1% and we have opted for it
00:25:05
because we believe we have a shot at being in that top 1% I love that because I think the winner takes all applies to
00:25:12
a lot of different things so I bet the top 10% of Americans now are healthier than they've ever been while the rest of
00:25:17
the country has never been healthy best healthare in the world if you're in the top 10% yeah or in marriages the top
00:25:22
marriages today are the best marriages of all time yet we have declining marriage rates so we're nearing the
00:25:29
lowest rate of marriage that we've ever had in American history so most people are or fewer people are getting married
00:25:35
but if you're you know two college graduates who get married in your 30s you might have an even stronger Bond
00:25:40
than people in the past but that is a small group at the top marriages become a luxury item yeah if you're in the top Quintel of income earning households you're you're 75% get married if you're
00:25:53
in the bottom quintile only 25 if you're in the lower quintile of income in men only one in four chance of getting married and this has huge impact on our society because we know that married
00:26:04
people are healthier they're wealthier they live longer when couples are married they actually have lower rates
00:26:10
of child poverty and so this has huge implications for our society if we're having fewer marriages especially when
00:26:16
you think about having fewer babies I am I want to get into dating and and marriage and love on all those
00:26:22
things I one of the things that really shocked me as I Was preparing for this conversation was this graph MH because
00:26:28
this isn't the narrative that we hear can you both see this one this is the reverse gender gap oh yeah gender pay
00:26:34
Gap graph and it shows that young women and out out earning young men that's not
00:26:39
what I heard in terms of like if I log onto social media we've been trying to fight the gender pay Gap but to see that
00:26:45
young men are now falling behind both in education both in unemployment young men face higher unemployment nearly twice
00:26:51
the rate of women looking at the early developmental stats this graph was horrifying I like actually couldn't
00:26:57
believe that was true that young young boys are struggling so much in education but then to see also that it's reflected in so that graph
00:27:04
shows that boys age 16 to 24 are making 10% Less in full-time employment than women and so it is true that we're seeing a reverse income graph but what we do need to talk about is even when
00:27:17
women make more in their 20s that changes around age 30 they have kids when they have kids right it's like this
00:27:23
meteorite hits and there's this huge burden placed on women and I think that's a big part of the conversation
00:27:29
that we'll talk about when we talk about dating is women still feel like they have to have you know do all the
00:27:34
household chores and raise the kids but suddenly they have to earn a full-time income too and so so many of the gender
00:27:41
roles are changing and so yes that graph is true we have seen since 2020 that there's a shift but I don't want to just
00:27:47
say oh women are making more in perpetuity because as soon as there's kids involved they pay the price you
00:27:53
know you said that women feel the need to then also earn a career and those things where did that come from well
00:28:00
there's this idea of hypergamy so traditionally women seek Partners who have more economic or social status than
00:28:08
they do and for most of human history this worked because men had the resources and so there was sort of this
00:28:13
Arrangement where women could often marry someone who is more educated or earned more but over the last 50 years
00:28:20
that's really changed and so what I'm seeing in my work working one-on-one with women is that when they say that
00:28:26
there aren't enough good guys to go around that's actually true so we now have this huge mating Gap where we have
00:28:32
these high- performing High earning women that have done the work and gone to therapy and work out and they're
00:28:37
ready for their great partner but they're not able to find enough guys who are available and If this is a problem now with the women I work with in their 30s we are going to be facing a much
00:28:50
more severe crisis 10 15 years from now so currently 60% of college enrollment is women but soon it's going to be for every two women that graduate it'll be one man so that means half of those
00:29:03
women will not have a guy who graduated from college and so this is a crisis because these women are saying okay if you cannot be the provider then you need
00:29:14
to be offering more emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating but these guys were raised not to
00:29:21
be emotionally intelligent not to give emotional support but to be a provider and so they've been chasing this lion I'm going to hunt for this Lion of being a provider but suddenly they're told you
00:29:32
need to hunt for a tiger which is emotional intelligence they don't have the skills to do that and so women have
00:29:38
raised the bar in terms of what they need from men while men are continuously falling
00:29:44
behind yeah there's there's a lot there there's some Nuance around the pay thing so the data I've seen is that women
00:29:49
under the age of 30 in urban areas are now making more money but to your point the moment they have kids where
00:29:55
Corporate America has really failed is it hasn't figured out out a way to maintain a woman's professional trajectory once she decides to deploy
00:30:01
her ovaries and have kits and there's some data saying okay two-thirds of divorce can be reverse engineered to the
00:30:07
man starting to make less money if if when the woman in the relationship starts making more money they become
00:30:13
twice as likely to get divorced three times as likely to use ED drugs because the guy loses a sense of purpose and
00:30:19
self-esteem what gets lost in that data is the reality is if a woman is stepping
00:30:25
up and stepping into the economic void and being more econom ially uh being a greater economic
00:30:31
contributor then logically it would make sense that men need to step up logistically and I think what a lot of
00:30:36
women are saying is like okay I'm not getting anything I'm not you're no longer a provider and by the way you
00:30:42
haven't filled that void you hadn't made up the Delta so there's some there's some nuan around it what what also I
00:30:49
think is important to say is that if women are better students and showing the discipline and the skills to go to
00:30:55
college in an information economy and making more money then okay good on them just as for
00:31:02
whatever reason men made more money maybe it wasn't fair but you know it's not a crime against humanity if women
00:31:08
have the skills to make more money what happens though is the second order effects that you're talking about and
00:31:13
that is we don't like to talk about this 75% of women say that economic viability
00:31:19
is hugely important in a may only 25% of men for men it's not a criteria for women it is and Chris Williamson of the
00:31:26
modern wisdom podcast he has has this great Stat or it calls out the high heels effect and that is 50% of women
00:31:32
say they won't date a man shorter than them I'm curious what you think but I think it's more like 80% I think it's
00:31:37
embarrassing thing to say because just instinctively women feel like they'll be vulnerable during gestation and they
00:31:42
want someone they think physically could protect them I just think it's hardwired into them even if they don't know it
00:31:48
women metaphorically are getting taller every year and women made horizontally and up and Men horizontally and down and
00:31:55
when the pool of horizontal and up keep shrinking they just have so this notion a ton of great women where are the men or there's no men there's a lot of men just not men they'd want to date right
00:32:08
and then you speedball it with the guys who are in the top 10% can engage in Porsche polygamy they can get a date every goddamn night which does not encourage long-term or very good
00:32:19
behavior so the guys they all want are not incented to enter into long-term relationships and the bottom half of men are literally shut out of the mating
00:32:30
market and we always kind of we always kind of and this goes to your bwick kind of portray men as the Predators and the idiots and the they just got their act together there's something strange going
00:32:41
on in that is online dating when a woman a woman can go out with a guy a high status male and I'll put forward this
00:32:48
thesis and I want you to respond to it she can have sex with him which gives her the impression that's her weight
00:32:54
class for a relationship but he's not interested in a relation ship and then she basically decides the bottom 90 are
00:33:02
no longer in her weight class and you can't tell a woman to lower expectations but the reality is and what the data I've seen on dating apps is that all of
00:33:13
the women want the same few guys and they shut out the rest yeah okay so there's a few things I'll respond to there so one going back to the income graph I want to just call out that yes
00:33:25
right now in a few Urban markets women are making more than men so women in DC in New York under 30 are making more
00:33:32
than men on average but in most situations men are still making more than women but we're talking about a
00:33:37
projection going back to the dating research so yes it's exactly as you described what we have right now is
00:33:44
there's fewer and fewer men that are hypergamous mates for women so if there's a much smaller pool of guys then
00:33:52
what you have is you have a bunch of women competing for the same men and then a bunch of guys getting ignored but
00:33:58
what I also see is that those top guys are having a hard time deciding so I feel like in my coaching practice as a
00:34:05
dating coach I'm working with a lot of women who say what do I do I've changed my profile the way you said I should I
00:34:10
took your class but I still feel like there's just not enough great guys and then I work with these CEO men who are
00:34:17
having such a hard time choosing and so I think we really have this exacerbated problem where so many women are
00:34:24
competing for the same men and then a bunch of guys are getting ignored and then what ends up happening is where do
00:34:29
those guys go and they go online that's what you see they go to porn they go to porn or they go to Reddit I mean I love
00:34:36
Reddit but they're really going to some of these redpilled communities and so what you're seeing now is just men
00:34:41
really opting out of society so when you go back to that Stat one in seven young men in the UK is neat not an employment
00:34:49
education or training they have just opted out and as Scott says there's nothing scarier than a single man a
00:34:57
young single man and so we are just creating a lot of these angry young single men who are saying well this is
00:35:04
rigged against me and so that's why I am worried about the rise of people like Andrew Tate and if we wonder where are
00:35:10
the dads where are the men well men are finding these father figures but they're finding them online and they're not the
00:35:16
father figures that I would choose for the majority of men and so I'm really worried about this because I feel like
00:35:23
women are saying guys you need to step up because I can provide and I don't need from you and guys are not prepared
00:35:30
to rise to the occasion what what are women looking for he Scott talked about height yeah so I would say you know I
00:35:36
work at hinge but I do think that apps have perpetuated this issue around height because if you can set your
00:35:42
height filter to something then you might set it higher and then it's as if you have the dating app is a club and
00:35:48
you're literally having bouncers that prevent a bunch of guys from even getting into the club so many women in
00:35:55
the US set their height filters at 6 feet but but only 14% of men in the US are six feet or taller so what happens
00:36:02
to the other 86% of men and women are saying where's my guy it's like well you he's not even showing up on your app and
00:36:09
so a huge thing that I push women to do is to change their height filters and just say there is nothing that proves
00:36:16
that you're going to have a successful long-term relationship if the guy is higher I'm married to a short King I
00:36:22
love it I feel like I really found this Gem and I think that so many women are missing out on great potential partners because of things like height Scott's Point as well about they will date one
00:36:33
of the men in the top 10% yeah sleep with him potentially and then that kind of adjusts their standards and they
00:36:39
expect all other men to meet that standard but there isn't just there isn't enough men to meet that standard is that I haven't specifically heard
00:36:45
that I mean there is a lot of evidence around a sort of mating that people sort of have an internal sense of how
00:36:50
attractive they are and that they end up with someone similar to that but aort of mating is different than hypergamy which
00:36:57
is really this idea as Scott said that women tend to date horizontally and up and men date horizontally and down so if you have two-thirds of women who are college grads and onethird of college
00:37:09
grads who are men and some of them are going to date women without college degrees you truly do have this dating
00:37:14
crisis where there's just not enough men to meet this hypergamous mating again you can't tell women to lower their expectations but this is the reality when you ask a man if you could have a
00:37:26
woman who had 80% of everything you wanted 75% say yeah I'm on board when you say to a woman a man has 80% of what you want 75% say that's that's not
00:37:36
enough but if you but but even look at the media right right right what does the media tell a woman to do he's out
00:37:43
but he didn't open your door he's not nice to his parent you walk walk right out on that man like it's literally
00:37:50
every piece of media is you don't need him you're a strong independent woman pull the rip cord you're out and
00:37:58
it is the the the basic kind of communication around this is you are a strong independent powerful woman that is wonderful and quite frankly you don't need the imperfect man and uh they're
00:38:12
just not they're just not connecting I read that on Tinder a man of average attractiveness has to swipe right 200 times to get one coffee and then four of
00:38:24
those five coffees will ghost him they will they will decide they don't want to meet him or they won't show up that means a guy of average attractiveness has to swipe right a
00:38:36
thousand times to get one coffee now what does that tell that guy women don't value me women make me feel rejected and
00:38:44
then they go online and they meet they see these misogynists telling them it's not your fault and these men become much
00:38:51
more prone to misogynistic content much more prone to nationalistic content blaming other people for the lack of
00:38:58
Economic Opportunity they start sequestering from society I worry that we are literally evolving a new species
00:39:04
of asexual asocial male and if a man by the age of 30 hasn't either lived with someone or married someone there's a one in three chance he's going to have a substance abuse problem wow in addition
00:39:16
it goes so much deeper than that because if they don't develop the skills you know the reason romantic comedies are 2 hours and not 15 minutes is this [ __ ] is hard like finding an
00:39:27
attractive intelligent woman generally speaking 75% of people who've been married longer than 30 years say in the
00:39:32
beginning one was much more interested than the other and it was almost always the man women are women are much
00:39:37
choosier the basic the basis of evolution is seed trying to get everywhere men and women to playing a
00:39:43
much finer filter to to select the strongest smartest and fastest speed so men need an environment to demonstrate
00:39:50
excellence and you hear these woman talk about he was kind he was good at work I like the way he smelled he was funny
00:39:56
where do men demonstrate Excellence when they're not going to college they're not
00:40:02
going into an office because of remote work where do they have they're not going to church they're not going to Temple where does a woman have the
00:40:10
opportunity to fall in love other than these Baseline metrics and you were talking about women say you've seen these Tik toks over $100,000 that's not
00:40:21
unreasonable and over 6 feet that's 2.2% of the male population so where where do they fall
00:40:28
in love where can a man demonstrate Excellence it used to be go to Temple seven single women seven single men and
00:40:34
they kind of pair it off and worked it out and online dating similar to online e-commerce online rentals it's created a
00:40:43
winner take most if not all environment and it's it's basically been amazing for
00:40:50
attractive guys attractive wealthy guys tall wealthy guys it's been amazing for them for all the other guys it's been a
00:40:56
disaster and it's been made it mildly shittier for every woman it it is the digitization of mating I believe has been a disaster it's been bad for women it's been disastrous for
00:41:09
men I want to talk about how the genders seem to be separating in a lot of important ways we know from research
00:41:15
around political affiliation that women are now on average 30% more liberal than men so they are definitely experiencing
00:41:21
political polarization then for the first time in history more men are attending church than and women and when
00:41:28
I started this research I really came at it from this point of is it just me or there not as many eligible guys but when
00:41:35
I dug into this I found that both genders really feel misunderstood and so I asked men and women who has more power in relationships so equal amounts men
00:41:46
and women said oh we have the same amount of power 42% of that but then what was so interesting is that 46% of
00:41:53
men said women have more power and 46% of women said men have more power so there's this huge feeling of oh the other gender has all of this power and when I spoke to people I want to tell
00:42:04
you about three dating paradoxes that I saw so the first dating Paradox for men is this idea that now that women are providers and do not need a man to take
00:42:15
care of them financially they really want guys to step up with emotional support but here's the Paradox they were
00:42:21
not raised and they don't know how to give that emotional support or emotional availability so we know women even if
00:42:28
they have the same number of friends as guys the women are talking to their friends much more often women speak to
00:42:34
their kids even starting at a very young age they use more emotional language with their daughters and their sons so
00:42:40
constantly we have this feeling where we're asking men to do something when they don't have the skills I was talking
00:42:45
to my friend David and he said women are in graduate school when it comes to emotional conversations and guys are in
00:42:50
third grade the other part of the Paradox is that women are asking men to be more emotionally open
00:42:57
but then they get shamed when they do that so we have this great quote from ber Brown where she says we beg guys to
00:43:03
open up we beg them to let us in and then when they do we can't stomach it and I heard that over and over in my
00:43:10
research there's this quote where a guy says a woman would rather see me die on the White Horse than fall off of it and
00:43:16
so there's this sense that I have to be perfect I have to be the masculine and The Feminine but I don't have the skills
00:43:23
to do that and women say that they want these guys to be Emo but as soon as they show emotionality it can freak those
00:43:30
women out so one guy that I spoke to for this said I went on a few dates with this woman at some point I told her that
00:43:37
my mom had had a suicide attempt and the next day she texted me and said I'm sorry I can't see you I cannot process
00:43:44
your emotional trauma for you and so guys are getting a lot of mixed messages we want you to be feminine we want you
00:43:49
to support us but when you do it freaks us out and so we don't want that and digging into the research and I want to look into this more I think it's that a lot of women want emotional support they
00:44:00
want you to support them in their emotional Journeys but they're not as ready to have you open up in your
00:44:06
emotional Journey can I put forward a thesis and I want you to respond to it because I haven't done the
00:44:13
research in marketing we call it consumer dissonance what people say they want yeah and then what they actually
00:44:18
buy and what women say they want is an emotionally in touch man and what they want is a masculine man and that they will articulate what they want in a man and includes being more emotionally
00:44:31
available and then they want to have sex with a traditional masculine man and what I hear from a lot of and this is anecdotal evidence and it's pulse marketing and you tell me what the data says but there's just so many single
00:44:44
women in my age group and there's L it feels like there's literally no men in my age group as bad as it is for people in their 20s and 30s trying being a
00:44:51
woman in your 50s trying to date right and they tell me the same thing these are liberal Progressive educated women they say by the way I like a manly man yeah and they say it under their breath
00:45:03
so there's what supposedly is stated around I need more emotional availability someone's touch
00:45:08
with their feelings but what the research shows is they want a guy with facial hair who's
00:45:14
the who's still women are still very attracted to traditional masculine attributes yeah I mean I think we're
00:45:21
just in such a hard moment because you have women who are saying I don't want to date a guy who earns less than me and
00:45:28
you might think okay well the data hasn't caught up with the dating if more women are in higher education and more
00:45:34
women are earning more then maybe you're going to be the one who earns more in your relationship but what they feel
00:45:40
like is projecting out I'm going to end up doing most of the housework most of the child care I might as well get a guy
00:45:46
that can contribute financially so they don't want to change their expectations around that and so I think we truly are
00:45:52
in a moment where women are being asked to do more masculine things and men are being asked to do more feminine things and I think a lot of that is progress but it also seems to be creating a lot
00:46:03
of confusion in the dating world yeah it's sort of was just thinking I coach a lot of young men and
00:46:10
occasionally women ask me for dating advice and you coach it sounds like a lot of both and what I first thing I say
00:46:16
to men is I asked them like would you want to have sex with you all right are you in shape what do you look like naked are you do you have
00:46:23
a plan you don't have to be rich now but do you have a plan right uh have you do you have you found means of being
00:46:29
confident can you demonstrate kindness and Excellence across anything and the the only advice I give women is second coffee and that is maybe it wasn't great I mean if you don't like the guy and
00:46:41
you're just like turned off fine but if it was just okay maybe give it a second coffee I have a chapter in my book called make the second date the default yeah and it's really because I feel like
00:46:52
I won the lottery with my husband but he is somebody that takes longer to open up and he's this lowb bur we met in college
00:46:58
we met again s years later then we were friends for a year and I feel like he's this incredible partner husband father
00:47:05
but I don't know that if we'd met just randomly on the first date that I would have gone on the second date and so I think people really do need to train
00:47:11
themselves to look for these slow burs Logan Scott said something there about what he thinks women want which is these
00:47:17
sort of traditional masculine features is this what you see in the data what's hard is I think Scott's right about what
00:47:23
people say they want versus like so stated versus preferences so according to the research that I did women are saying the number one thing that they're looking for is kindness and compassion
00:47:34
that's also what men are saying that they're looking for so in many ways this is great people are looking for the same
00:47:40
things but I just feel like there's these huge disconnects now where people don't feel like they can get what they
00:47:45
want men are saying they want kindness and compassion that was I made them say what are all the things that you care
00:47:50
about and then what is the number one thing that you care about and kindness and compassion was first for both of them the stuff I've seen or the stuff
00:47:57
I've read is that for women and I talked to men about this number one is they have to Signal resources and we don't like to say it out loud and by the way it doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a Range Rover and a panel right now
00:48:10
but you have a plan right you you have your [ __ ] together you go home at midnight when everyone's partying because you have to be up for work you work out which shows a level of discipline and that you can commit to
00:48:22
something you're in school you've got a good job this person is going to have resour resources and I don't think
00:48:28
that's changed a whole lot I think a man's ability to to Signal future resources has gone down I'm not sure
00:48:34
it's become any less of a criteria number two is intellect and it's very instinctual because if you make good
00:48:40
decisions for the tribe your kids are more likely to survive someone who's smart is more likely to take care of
00:48:47
your Offspring than someone who's stupid what's interesting and I love this is the fastest way to communicate intellect
00:48:54
is humor and I joke I joke this is bad but I say this is my impression of a woman I'm laughing I'm laughing I'm
00:49:00
naked and that is I've always thought if a guy can make a woman laugh she will she will date him and then the third thing and this is where guys screw up this is what I tell a guy's secret
00:49:12
weapon is it's kindness women want to see that you are a good person you you treat service staff well you're good to your parents you have manners you treat people well even with no reciprocal
00:49:25
expectation because they know that a kind person if and when she's vulnerable and needs help and maybe isn't bringing as much to the table for certain periods of time that that this is a kind man and
00:49:39
you know sure you want to do your best to Signal resources and have a plan sure maybe you're smart maybe you aren't
00:49:44
there's not a lot you can do there but the secret weapon I think for men that they don't leverage and I do think it's
00:49:50
a practice is to demonstrate kindness and we don't talk about that enough as men it's like well okay and it's little
00:49:57
things have good manners be thoughtful follow up with people and I I think that anyways those are the three things that I have read women want uh in men okay
00:50:10
there's so much there so one one is I do think we need a new definition for modern masculinity or mature masculinity or evolved masculinity and I think that
00:50:20
that's why this moment feels so painful is that we don't have it because I agree with you I don't think women are saying
00:50:26
I want a feminine man I think they want a modern masculine man and so that means
00:50:31
somebody who is decisive and can provide but also somebody who's able to communicate with them emotionally and so one of the suggestions that I came here today to talk about is this idea of
00:50:43
men's groups so about a year ago my friend David claven who happens to be a world-class magician came to my husband
00:50:50
and said I'm going to form this men's group and so it's about six or seven men and they meet together monthly and and
00:50:56
they have served they they have formed this Council of peers so every month that they get together every guy sits
00:51:03
down with Post-it notes and says the two issues that are most pressing for him so first of all I think that that's a great way of doing it because it's actually
00:51:09
that time to say what am I struggling with I think many people in their lives maybe especially men don't sit there and
00:51:16
saying what's top of mine for me so guys get the quiet time to do that then they go around in a circle and whoever has
00:51:22
the most pressing issue they get to take their time and some men might say know these are top of mind for me but it's
00:51:28
not a priority I'll give the time to someone else and each month they talk about what's going on for them they hold
00:51:34
each other accountable so month three they might say hey David you've been talking about that for the last three
00:51:39
months are you going to actually do anything about it and I love that these men have a masculine space to actually
00:51:45
go through what's going on for them because maybe they have wives and girlfriends they can go to maybe they
00:51:51
don't but I think it's a different type of advice that you get from a council of trusted peers and I really do think that
00:51:58
men's groups could change a lot of these issues because I can sit here and say everybody should be in therapy guess
00:52:04
what therapy is really expensive and many insurance companies will not provide it or there's a huge waiting
00:52:09
list and so if we just sit around for all these guys to go to therapy that's not going to happen but men's groups are
00:52:15
a way that men can lead each other they can provide this tribe of peers and I have just seen so many changes in this group so David told me his story where he had a lot of anger about his mom's
00:52:27
debilitating illness and he wasn't really experiencing it and it was coming out as anger at his mom but he wasn't
00:52:33
conscious of that but by getting the anger out in a safe place with men the only place where he felt like he could
00:52:40
truly be angry he was able to get over it and to actually treat his mom with a lot more empathy or my husband has gone
00:52:47
to the group and talked about ego stuff at work or how hard the transition to becoming a parent has been and I feel
00:52:54
like the men in this group have grown so much over the 12 months that it's been happening that I just paid for my
00:53:00
brother-in-law to be in a men's group and I want there to be tons of men's groups because I really feel like this
00:53:05
isn't an issue that a therapist or a mom or I can really solve I think men need to be solving this problem within
00:53:12
themselves where you said is really powerful because if you walk down the hallway at Stern there's golden seeds
00:53:17
Venture cap women and Venture Capital black women's Consulting Club there there are women's supporters there's nothing for men and these groups are really wonderful man
00:53:30
talks is one that I've been looking at where they've said let's get together and just be supportive of each other and
00:53:36
it's and it's a fairly new phenomenon I think people are afraid of men Gathering because traditionally bad things have
00:53:42
happened in that right there I mean gangs I'm just thinking of like many situations in which like if once there's
00:53:49
a TIY torch I want there to be some women there right like so there's a reason why people have been fearful of
00:53:54
this or it's like when the whole world was was a men's group a men's club you didn't need to have Men's Clubs but I
00:54:00
think in this moment this is a really powerful organic Grassroots way for men to change so I imagine that you have group chats with men that are your peers that you go to for advice and I feel
00:54:13
like there's men out there that don't have that and we are meant to make decisions by getting advice from other
00:54:20
people I personally have a board of directors that in my life when I'm going to make a big decision I meet with them
00:54:26
so when I took my last job when I decided to move all these different things I meet with my board of directors
00:54:32
and I say what am I not seeing what are my blind spots and they've given me a lot of good and hard advice and I think
00:54:39
we all need to be building our own board of directors and for men that might be this men's group do you mind if I pause
00:54:46
this conversation for a moment I want to talk about our show sponsor today which is Shopify I've always believed that the
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shopify.com Bartlet and sign up for a one pound per month trial period That's shopify.com Bartlet it is hard as a as a young man to um share how you feel with other
00:55:44
young men even if they like your best friends it's so much easier just to roast each other yeah like my my group chat with my guys yeah is probably a
00:55:51
little bit more advanced in in terms of emotional openness but most of it is just like a war zone well like izing
00:55:56
each other attacking each other but that's kind of our way of showing love and then you'll have once every two
00:56:02
weeks someone will be going through something so like one of my friends now he they' just found out that there's a
00:56:08
complication with the pregnancy and the tone shifts and we all become supportive but my girlfriend tells me how rare that
00:56:14
is that we have this space where we'll we'll talk about our emotions and how we're feeling and we'll swi switch from like trying to kill each other in the
00:56:20
most like funny way to being really really emotionally supportive a lot of men don't have that well so funny you
00:56:26
said that because my husband's really funny and so are some of the other guys in the group and they actually had to talk about how they needed to be less
00:56:32
funny because the F the humor was becoming a distraction and somebody brought up you know in their own male
00:56:38
way like I think that sometimes we're about to go deep and then someone makes a joke and even though that joke was really good we don't go back to where we
00:56:45
were and we don't go as deep so they actually work on being less funny in that group but look at the work that you
00:56:50
do you sit for hours a week and you learn and you ask people questions and you're working on yourself I'm not surprised that you have a group of peers
00:56:57
that you can go to for that but I would wager that the average man doesn't have that and I feel like there are going to
00:57:03
be so many women who are listening and watching this and they're like I want that for my husband what is the
00:57:08
evolutionary basis for this this is what I was thinking the whole time I was like did we lose the man's group at some point in our past and is that why we're
00:57:15
adding it back into our lives like what was what used to do this job before so what I've heard and I think evolutionary
00:57:22
biology you always have to take certain things with a grain of salt because people can kind of explain away any with it but it's that a lot of times men were
00:57:29
sitting next to each other and they were having these conversations on the Savannah and that's often why like guys prefer to do activities side by side and
00:57:37
not facing each other and so you had men who were in conversation with their peers or you know and outside and outside hey heard you getting divorced
00:57:49
right right or it's like you know why it's so good to have conversations in the car I feel like you had a lot of men
00:57:55
that were in groups at church you had men who were in The Elks Club you had veterans that were meeting we actually
00:58:01
feel like this is a time where much fewer men are getting together and this is all of the amazing research that's happening now around loneliness is that
00:58:08
the average young guy is spending many fewer hours a week with their peers face to face so even though a guy might be catching up with his friend playing video games I just don't think that that's the same thing and so I feel like
00:58:21
we need this in-person time with our friends to develop these relationships and instead we have people on Tik Tok
00:58:28
people on Twitch watching other people live their lives you brought up two interesting thing you when is your your
00:58:35
your friend group I have a similar group same eight gu eight guys I live with my freshman here at UCLA for 30 or 40 years
00:58:42
we've been kind of Constant Contact email now on WhatsApp when your friend had something
00:58:48
bad happen to him I think for a long time men have waited and show empathy for each other what none of my male
00:58:54
friends have ever done their friend group would say is I I've never heard one of my male friends go I'm depressed
00:59:01
I'm I'm just super [ __ ] lonely and depressed you just don't hear that from Men I'm struggling with anger I'm I have
00:59:09
I'm all of a sudden I have a rectile dysfunction you would just I've never heard one of my male friends when their
00:59:15
mom dies or they get divorced we weigh in with a lot of empathy but you never hear them really open up because men are
00:59:22
worried that if we display weakness another man might kill us and take our [ __ ] from us or the women
00:59:28
aren't going to want to have sex with us so there's still I think a huge inability for men to proactively talk
00:59:36
about how they're really feeling and then you talked about a board of directors a great Board of Directors for
00:59:42
a man in his 20s unfortunately not unfortunately is a girlfriend yeah and I'll just use personal experience I had a great girlfriend when I was 24 and she basically said to me if
00:59:53
you don't stop getting high every night I'm going Toop stop having sex with you that was very motivating for me I really
01:00:00
liked being with a partner without the guardrails of a romantic relationship I think men are just I want to say lost but women create
01:00:11
more social connections outside of a romantic relationship and sometimes that absence of a romantic relationship they
01:00:16
pour that energy into friendships and their professional life whereas Men start pouring it into video games and
01:00:23
rdit in porn so the fact that only one in three men in America under the age of 30 has a girlfriend and two and three women has a boyfriend you think well that's mathematically impossible it's not because women are dating older
01:00:35
because they want more economically and emotionally viable men if I hadn't been in relationships that were great
01:00:40
guardrails for me in terms of my own behavior my own ambition I men need without the prospect
01:00:49
or the existence of a romantic relationship men have worse outcomes than women who don't have and it it is
01:00:57
what I'm do you agree with what I'm saying does the research bear that out you know it's interesting because
01:01:03
part of me where my head goes is like are you asking women to do the emotional labor of raising men and when you phrase
01:01:09
it like that it sounds really negative but from anecdotal experience from my own life you know I've been with my
01:01:14
husband for 10 years I think we both really shaped each other but like even yesterday he texted me and he's like I'm
01:01:20
going to get an Uber instead of renting a car at the airport you've taught me how to be such a Savvy traveler like that's a small example but but it's like
01:01:26
you really do influence each other and I think that I think sometimes about my single friends and how they go to bed at night and they don't have a person next to them to give them advice and to
01:01:37
listen to them talk about their day and I think that when we're in long-term relationships there's an element of
01:01:43
raising each other and building memories together and making each other better and having that investment equals three
01:01:49
right and that's why I just all these women that come to me and all these men that are looking for love that want
01:01:54
relationships and something is happening right now where the Gap just seems to be widening and these relationships aren't
01:02:01
happening and this is even true in teenage relationship so it used to be that for Baby Boomers and Gen X three4
01:02:08
of men had had a relationship in their teen years and now it's under 50% and so if you start building your relational skills at an early age then you get better and better at dating over time
01:02:20
but if as you said by the time you're 30 you haven't been in a relationship that's seen as a red flag to a lot of people
01:02:26
and so I think we have a problem now but I'm really projecting that we're going to have a much greater problem in the
01:02:31
future I think a real enemy of relationships and mating for people in their 20s that we haven't talked a lot about I had Dr Anna lmy from Stanford on my pod talking about addiction and
01:02:45
something we're just starting to come to grips with and as I read more about it I think porn is really let's talk about
01:02:51
porn well personal experience I used to to go on Camp the only reason I graduated from UCLA I graduated with a 2.27 GPA if I graduated with a 1.97 I
01:03:02
wouldn't graduated not an not the only motivator but a real motivator for me was the
01:03:08
prospect of meeting someone I I could go on to campus and there might be a chance I'd meet friends be social and possibly
01:03:15
meet a potential romantic partner it was very motivating and if I'd had porn on this right and on my screen always available I'm not sure I would gone on campus I I just would have spent a lot
01:03:27
more time at home and unfortunately the deepest pocketed most talented companies
01:03:33
in the world are trying to convince young people that they can have a reasonable fact simile of life on a
01:03:38
screen with an algorithm and what I say to young men I coaches it I'm not going to tell you not to consume porn but try
01:03:45
to modulate it because I think that fire of wanting to meet someone and wanting to demonstrate excellence and being
01:03:53
having perseverance and enduring rejection getting your [ __ ] together and dressing well and smelling nice and
01:03:58
showering for God's sakes that Mojo that desire is incredibly important for society and we're taking young men's Mojo Away With frictionless Open Access
01:04:12
ond demand porn have you seen these noof fap communities yeah have you seen this
01:04:18
yes okay so I was listening to this episode of Modern William with Chris Williamson and he was interviewing Hamza who was self-identifying as a former
01:04:25
redpilled person and he was talking about how much it changed his life to try to enter the noof fap Community
01:04:31
which means no masturbation and so I do think that porn is a huge problem my first job out of college was running the porn pod for Google so what this meant
01:04:43
was that we would sell ads for the porn advertisers this team does not exist anymore this was a long time ago um my
01:04:51
parents were like I sent you to Harvard and now you're selling ads for pornography
01:04:56
but when I look back I'm like what was I perpetuating because I feel like there's
01:05:01
just so many problems with what technology is doing in terms of replacing human connection so let's just
01:05:07
project out chat PT is already amazing I'm currently in my Google feed getting ads for replica and the ads say get your
01:05:15
perfect AI boyfriend always there for you yeah so you think about the fact that real life relationships are messy I
01:05:23
tell my husband on a weekly basis please throw contact lens in the garbage and every week we have a disagreement about that well guess what your online girlfriend she doesn't nag you she
01:05:34
doesn't tell you to pick up your socks she only tells you how great you are and always tells you you know that you're
01:05:40
doing the right thing and how was your day then you insert sex robots Okay so you have your emotional needs met you
01:05:47
have your sexual needs met maybe you're watching porn while engaging with your sex robots why would you want to go through the very challenging potential rejection of real life relationships and
01:05:59
I feel like if all these things come to pass which it seems very likely that they will we are truly in a crisis
01:06:05
moment when it comes to birth rate and future generations and it impacts them it'll impact the economy because the skills you have to develop to be
01:06:16
successful in The Mating Market are life skills you have to be able to endure rejection you have to have a sense of
01:06:22
humor you have to be able to read the room show me a guy who's good in a bar I'll show you a guy who probably be good in a boardroom and the skills you have
01:06:30
to develop as a young man if you want a romantic and a sexual relationship pay dividends the rest of your life and if
01:06:36
you don't develop those skills I think it impacts your life across a bunch of Dimensions this is something I'm worried
01:06:41
about for genz in general so I did a ton of research with post-pandemic genz daters men and women in the UK and
01:06:47
United States and such a big theme that came out of it was that they don't have rejection resilience and I think that we
01:06:53
hear this in many aspects of life so someone that I'm close to he's the former dean of brown he's a professor
01:06:59
there and he was talking about how it used to be that his office hours were empty and that's when he could do his reading or play solitire but now
01:07:06
students come basically saying tell me exactly what's going to be on the test tell me exactly what to write in my paper because they are not willing to
01:07:13
fail I have friends who are managers at Google and they give somebody feedback in a Google doc and the person is crying
01:07:19
because they take that as extreme rejection and so if you don't have the resilience built up fail then you are
01:07:26
not going to take risks and everything in life worth having is worth taking a risk for and so I feel that I have my
01:07:33
dream job nobody messaged me on LinkedIn and said hey Logan do you want to study dating and relationships no I invented
01:07:40
this job and now I get to have it and same thing is true with relationships it's not about waiting for the perfect
01:07:45
person to show up it's about becoming a great person who somebody else chooses and going after what you want I want to
01:07:51
talk about all of this and it specifically offer some solutions to the young to the parents to the boys to the
01:07:57
teens to the men that are listening we had a young man actually write in on this subject and he said I've suffered
01:08:03
with crippling loneliness and so I've spent over $1,000 hiring women online just to talk to me and to keep me
01:08:09
company on top of that I've spent several ,000 more engaging in other business with them after doing this for
01:08:15
nearly a year now I still feel incredibly unfulfilled and on the subject of porn 30% of internet traffic
01:08:22
is now related to porn with about 80% of that porn traffic coming from men and 20% coming from women I actually had a conversation on this podcast before about porn and funly enough the top comment was by the way us women what get
01:08:35
porn addicted to because it was a bit of a blind spot to me but I think that's something that's worth
01:08:40
acknowledging and the stats are staggering in terms of how higher porn consumption correlates to higher
01:08:47
probabilities of depression what you do about it like on an individual level I get it try not to
01:08:52
watch porn but I mean that doesn't seem like incredibly great advice because if you're lonely you're not getting laid no
01:08:59
one wants to date you for all the reasons we've talked about today restraint seems to be a pretty
01:09:06
shitty solution give this one to okay so I coach young men I take two to three on
01:09:11
at any time and I don't know if this is the right way but it's my way I'm like you got to lean into your advantage when
01:09:17
you're our age you have more you have Capital you have more money than time they have Capital they have a lot of
01:09:22
time and I asked them to unlock their screen and I say to them I gamble with options I gamble at my age I still gamble I I preach about lowcost index
01:09:33
funds and I buy call options that makes no [ __ ] sense it's gambling but I know it I watch porn I try and modulate
01:09:40
my use so I can put the majority of my sexual energy into my partner but I watch porn because I want them to not
01:09:46
feel like I'm going to judge them they unlock their phone and I say we're going to find 8 to 12 hours a week of time of
01:09:52
capital and we're going to reinvest that capital and higher Roi Investments it is
01:09:58
so easy to find 8 to 12 hours it can sometimes find seven hours or 15 hours just in tick talk you look at screen
01:10:04
time I look at screen time and I say all right come with through with me we're going to find eight to 12 hours and then
01:10:11
we're going to reinvest that capital in three Investments one we're going to start working out and getting fit you're
01:10:17
going to work out three times a week with weights you should be able the the human mail form is spectacular you
01:10:24
should be able to walk in in any room under the age of 30 if you're a man and know that if [ __ ] got real you could kill and eat everybody or outrun them I
01:10:31
need you to be strong you're going to be more mentally healthy you're going to be kinder look at the people who break up
01:10:37
fights at bars they're big strong men look at the people who defend their country you want to be strong as a man
01:10:44
it feels [ __ ] amazing testosterone your your bone structure your muscle mass it's amazing lean into that we're
01:10:51
going to get strong two you got to start making money and the kids are you know to be
01:10:57
honest the kids I'm coaching are really struggling these are kids at home at the age of 23 with their mom not getting
01:11:03
along with their mom nothing going on if you have a phone you can make money I don't care if it's lift Tas ret because you get a taste for the Flesh and the the way to start making a lot of money
01:11:15
is to start making a little bit of money because you start to figure out the economy how could I make more money maybe at some point could I buy a car
01:11:21
and hire a driver to be an Uber you know what what is the way you know could I get a certification in
01:11:28
in Plum you start figuring out and you start getting your GRE gland get going oh my God it's a have money I can go out
01:11:34
I can go to a concert it gets those greed Gins going and then the third thing we're going to do is we're going
01:11:39
to put ourselves in a company of strangers in the agency of something bigger than ourselves twice a week church group softball league
01:11:46
nonprofit chair whatever it is and then 3A and this is I've just started doing this I've believe done it two times and it's an exercise and I say and it goes to your I think no is the way to success
01:12:01
show me someone who's successful I'm going to show you a [ __ ] ton of NOS I've been re I ran for sophomore junior
01:12:06
senior class president lost all three times decided to run for senior class president lost I applied to 38 jobs I
01:12:12
got one offer nine schools rejected by seven I mean I just my whole life has been about no and that's why I'm
01:12:19
successful is I was always able to endure it so I say to them this is what I want you to do I need you to go up to a stranger at wherever we're doing
01:12:26
church group Rider Club Riders club whatever it might be online educa not online excuse me education continuing
01:12:32
education and you're gonna ask them out for coffee it's a friend hey what are you doing you want to watch the game do
01:12:38
you want to watch the Liverpool game this weekend let's go to a bar if it's a woman you might have new trctor to Hey
01:12:44
try and get a wrap going would you like to have coffee and here's the goal the goal is no and we're going to celebrate
01:12:50
now CU you're going to call me and I'm going to say did you ask someone out for coffee or to a bar and most likely they'll said no it'll be polite but'll
01:12:56
come excuse and then I'm going to ask you if you're okay and you're going to say yes and that's the victory it's
01:13:01
interesting because if you go on Tik Tok or if you go on X you'll find a lot of videos of women filming themselves as a
01:13:09
guy inappropriately came and made a gesture to them and then like publicly shaming them on the Internet it's very
01:13:14
popular to do in the gym yeah they set up a phone they're working out a guy comes over and asks if they need help with the weights it then goes viral
01:13:20
online because that guy was being inappropriate like you shouldn't so like as a guy it's quite complicated to know
01:13:27
how and where you can roll up without being filmed and going viral I know so we we talked about the first dating
01:13:34
Paradox which is just the idea that women now need more from men and are raising the bar because they can be providers on their own but men weren't
01:13:40
taught how to do that and they're sometimes shame for it so I think the second big dating Paradox is that men are expected to lead and to approach but
01:13:48
I truly feel like in a post me too era it's much more confusing and so so many people say to me I don't want to meet on
01:13:54
an app not romantic I want to meet in real life but I'm not finding that people are meeting in real life because
01:14:00
people are afraid to approach each other I think one is being afraid of being called creepy but the other one which is
01:14:07
what you're talking about is that this culture of making tick toks or going online with this dater attainment to
01:14:13
talk about how this person approached you or how inappropriate that was and so I feel like there's a lot of women
01:14:19
waiting for men to approach them but then shaming The Men Who do I think one of the solutions there is we should
01:14:25
allow people to shoot their shot in a non- creepy way can I just say something to that if the guy rolls up and he's 6'4
01:14:32
and he's you know gorgeous it's fine it seems the difference between creepy and romantic is the perceived attractiveness of the person making the Overture I think that that is true if you are super
01:14:43
hot it's less lik to be perceived as creepy but you have all these people that are saying I want to be approached
01:14:48
and they're not being approached and so there was this rise of run clubs last summer right everyone said the new
01:14:54
dating app is the Run Club I ask everywhere I go have you met someone at a run Club no people are not really
01:15:00
meeting there so since 2017 the number one way that people are meeting is online Hing just setting up a date every
01:15:07
two seconds this is where the dating is happening if people want more things to happen offline they actually have to
01:15:12
approach each other and I'm just not seeing that happen but my understanding is the majority of women still expect
01:15:18
the man to take the initiative absolutely and this is one of the most frightening
01:15:23
stats I've seen according to Pew more than 50% of men between the ages of 18 and 24 have never
01:15:31
asked a woman out in person and I just find that so just upsetting and rattling because that means they're either not asking people out or they're asking them out
01:15:42
online where quite frankly they can't demonstrate any sense of excellence and I think the beautiful thing about human sexuality is sometimes you don't even
01:15:49
know why you're attracted to someone you like the way they smell you find out they're funny and that happens in person
01:15:55
but we need one more third spaces more places people can meet and also I I actually think it would be helpful to have in the senior of high school a class called adulting where amongst other things you teach them about the
01:16:09
interest rate on a credit card you know little things my my kid can do integers and he doesn't understand the interest rate on his credit card and also quite
01:16:16
frankly I think young men need guidance around how to express romantic interest while making the other person feel safe and also that if you express romantic
01:16:26
interest and ask someone out for coffee and they say no you're both going to be fine you haven't committed a crime
01:16:33
against humanity as long as you're respectful and you don't make the person feel uncomfortable but men aren't even
01:16:40
asking women out everything you're saying is what I'm seeing so I was talking to this incredible 16-year-old
01:16:46
girl who built this AI chat bot called ask L and she's taken all the relationship science research that she's
01:16:52
seen and she's trained this chatbot and she's trying to help teens get safe and empowered dating advice and I asked her
01:16:59
what is the number one question that you're getting and it's how to ask someone out and so I think people are
01:17:04
really struggling it's not that teens in all of human history had the secret it's that they were willing to do it and fail
01:17:10
and now we're just not seeing that and so I think that we have glossed over the pandemic it was this really traumatic
01:17:16
time really scary stuff happened and we don't want to talk about it but people that came of age during the pandemic
01:17:22
their social skills are worse they missed out on critical moments of becoming a human and we are seeing that
01:17:28
in the workplace all these things about gen Z gen Alpha that came from something it came from parenting it came from
01:17:35
digital addiction it came from the pandemic and online learning and I think that if you do not have the social
01:17:41
skills to approach someone and ask them out there just will be literally fewer couples I want to throw a Molotov
01:17:47
cocktail into this and something that's controversial I've got push back on I think one of the enemies of mating is
01:17:53
that there's to little drinking if you look at um Millennials they spent $30 billion on alcohol genz it's crashed to two billion Peter ATA and Andrew huberman have declared war on drinking I
01:18:05
think young people need to drink more go out and make a series of bad decisions and might pay off I don't see drunkenness I see togetherness and I
01:18:13
don't know how it was for you and your relationship when I think of the majority of great friendships I have and the Romantic opportunities I've had not
01:18:20
always but often alcohol played a role and I worry that with a lack of going out being out of the house and also a
01:18:27
lack of drinking that we've taken away a social lubricant that breaks down some of the walls and some of the initial
01:18:33
awkwardness and entry into a potential romantic relationship I think some of the increase in Being Sober Sober
01:18:39
curious comes from interest in being healthy so we hear from Jen Z I don't want to have anxiety the next day they
01:18:46
are much less expensive yeah they are much less like leita Millennials to feel like there's a two drink drink minimum
01:18:51
for dates but in general we seeing less risk- taking behavior from gen Z they are getting their licenses far later if
01:18:59
at all they are losing their virginity much later if at all and so I feel like there's this rise of or there's this decrease in risk-taking Behavior which in some ways is great you know fewer
01:19:12
kids dying in car crashes and people being responsible but I just feel like people are having people are missing out
01:19:19
on the experience to make mistakes as a young person and I think when I think back to my college experience if there
01:19:25
had been cameras that have high quality video on them at all times I would have lived a very different college experience I am so grateful that Instagram was not there when I was in
01:19:38
college and so if you live in a surveillance culture where at any moment somebody is snapping the room and they
01:19:45
could see what you're doing you're going to take fewer risks and I just feel like there's this entire culture of people
01:19:51
being very safe and part of dating part of mating is making mistakes taking risks and failing so what do we do about it Logan speaking Scott gave a really good um sort of advice for the young man
01:20:04
or the young person who's trying to increase their mating value their dating value if I'm a what advice would you
01:20:10
give to a young man about how to be attractive because there's going to be a lot of young men listening right now I imagine from the stats all I love what
01:20:16
Scott said in terms of his advice and I feel like it's one of those things where the secret to happiness or the secret to
01:20:22
success is simple but hard so it's not like there's infinite things you need to do it's actually quite a simple plan but it's quite hard to execute on it a few things that I would add so one is I have
01:20:34
this friend Sam par he started the hustle he started the podcast my first million one thing that he did to make
01:20:40
himself more attractive as a mate was he would develop these passions and really talk about them on dates because he
01:20:46
found that women were really drawn to the fact that he was pursuing other activities so he got really into Denim
01:20:52
and he would talk about these denim meets that that he would go to and he found that women were really drawn to that he's very into the growth mindset
01:20:59
and working on himself he felt like that was something that women were so drawn to how he was growing because if you think about the projections well when he met my friend Sarah he wasn't making any
01:21:10
money she was making a lot more than him but she could see that he had a great path ahead of him because he was constantly working and improving himself the other thing I would tell men is
01:21:21
through my research I found that men think I need to be perfect I need to be six feet tall look women are not
01:21:27
expecting you to fly them to the Moon they want effort remember the name of their best friend text them when they had a hard meeting and say how did it go plan a thoughtful date and so I think
01:21:40
that you have men over here saying if I'm not six feet tall I don't have a chance so why participate anyway and
01:21:46
then you have women saying in some ways I just want you to be an effortful nice person and I'm not even getting that and
01:21:53
so I think that for men they can actually get much farther than they think and be better than 90% of men by
01:22:00
doing some of these bare minimum things that other men aren't doing so I have this question that I ask in my book
01:22:07
which is when you're deciding if you should break up with someone if your partner were a piece of clothing in your
01:22:12
closet what would they be in my is it my clothes or her clothes my clothes oh okay and it really has to be gut reaction so Scott if you thought of one I want to hear it I thought of like a black silk shirt
01:22:25
and that's probably because that's where we spend quality time together is when I'm wearing a black silk shirt special
01:22:31
occasions date night restaurant um make an effort um do you feel good in it yeah
01:22:38
of course I feel my best in it yeah and do you have one for your wife brunella Cinelli Kashmir v-x sweater makes me
01:22:43
look fantastic makes me better and it's beautiful yes and mine for my husband would be this awesome orange robe that I
01:22:50
have that represents being at home I love the orange color that's really bright and it represents our family time
01:22:57
so I've asked this question to I feel shamed I feel like mine was so superficial no yours was great cashmir V
01:23:04
I think your answer family orange I feel so shamed no no no I think your answer is wonderful and I actually in general
01:23:11
find that outer wear answers are very strong because it means that you feel warm around them it's you at your best
01:23:16
this your I feel [ __ ] fabulous I don't that's all that matters your answer was great the answers that worry me are something like a wool sweater
01:23:23
that feels good but then it's so I take it off the ratty shirt that I wear to the gym these are real answers I've gotten point is for years I've been
01:23:30
asking people this question well now I want to ask people the question of if you were a piece of clothing in your
01:23:36
closet what would you be and I feel like we spend so much time saying I'm looking for this in a partner this is the
01:23:42
checklist well look in the mirror do you have those traits and so for somebody who says I'm a ratty sweatshirt and it's
01:23:51
not the thing that I would choose to wear well then work on yourself and so I feel like there's a lot of feelings of
01:23:57
I'm going to relation shop I'm going to look for a partner the way I look for Bluetooth headphones well a lot of that
01:24:04
is about breaking people down into these parts and I feel like we should spend less time thinking about the checklist
01:24:09
for our partner and more time thinking about who am I and am I somebody who would be
01:24:14
chosen we've talked a lot about how young men are struggling which demographic of women do you find
01:24:19
struggle the most as it relates to mating and dating so I work with a lot of very successful women and that's also
01:24:26
because I'm expensive to work with and that's who my clients are but I have a newsletter where I hear from 85,000
01:24:33
people and so what I'm hearing is that a lot of women are saying men are intimidated by the amount of money that
01:24:41
I make they say that they're not going to be but the more successful I become the more threatened they are I'm just
01:24:46
talking to tons of women personal friends I I feel like at my house on one side of me and then two sides over are women who are having babies they call it
01:24:56
like single mother by choice where they literally were just like I can't find a man and I want to become a mom so I'm
01:25:02
going to do it by myself and so I feel like there are just all these great women who are saying Logan I'm following
01:25:07
your advice I'm putting myself out there I do all these things but they're just not finding Partners do you find that the more successful a woman becomes the
01:25:14
more difficult it becomes for her to find a man that will not feel emasculated by her success I don't think
01:25:21
that there's an exact correlation because it really depends who the guy is there are guys out there who are like
01:25:27
let's be a power couple but I feel like there are women who just feel like there's not enough good guys for them
01:25:34
and I'm curious what you think about this but I live in the Bay Area I'm seeing so much polyamory and I think
01:25:40
polyamory is interesting I'm Pro polyam I like the fact that people are thinking about relationship structures in a new
01:25:45
way 50% of marriag is end in divorce obviously our one size fits all approached marriage isn't working but
01:25:52
I'm also wondering well let me tell you the story I went to this dating event and the dating event
01:25:58
had five single women who were great and their friends were hyping them up and then there was two guys and they were both polyamorous and so I wonder if you're a guy who feels like there's not
01:26:10
that many good guys why should I have to choose I feel like that's a trend that I'm worried about pors of polygamy if
01:26:17
it's never been better to be a very attractive male but you have so much opportunity it does not and sent good
01:26:24
behavior or long-term relationships and I work with these guys and you might think that they're the happiest people in the world they are having sex they
01:26:31
are getting a lot of attention but they're suffering from decision paralysis and these are some of the guys
01:26:36
that hit 40 42 and they haven't gotten married they don't have kids and they sort of are like why would I ever settle down if I don't have to or I'm going to wait as long as possible but they don't
01:26:48
understand the opportunity cost which is building a life with someone having kids every year year that you wait to have
01:26:55
kids is a year that your kids will be alive without you and so I really feel like these people in the top percentage yes they're having a much easier time but they also have problems because
01:27:05
they're having decision paralysis and they're not settling down but I I would just I think the reality though on the
01:27:11
ground is that if you're a High um status male you think age is on your side and it is and because the reality is the bi the math is just unfair to women it is because if you're
01:27:26
a 30-year-old male making really good money and it you know relative like just not unattractive at 40 you're going to be even sexier your
01:27:38
sexual currency goes up I do think that there's a point where it starts to go down and I've seen that with my coaching
01:27:43
clients and part of that is just how the dating apps work that if you are an attractive woman and you set your age
01:27:51
maximum at 40 I do see that those men see diminishing returns after that age well especially if they haven't ever
01:27:57
been in a long-term relationship seen as a clear red flag if you're looking to take the next
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get the full range online at perfect.com where you can get 40% off your first order with code Steven 40 what role does feminism and the rise
01:30:15
of feminism play in all of this because I've had people on my podcast I think actually our last episode we published
01:30:21
was a lady who's a child psychologist she's been that way for three decad ades and she came on and said that the
01:30:26
feminist movement has let men and women down in some ways there's been great upsides but there's also been a cost and
01:30:32
one of the things she was really big on which I thought would be extremely controversial it turns out it wasn't in the comment section is that she believes
01:30:39
women should be there for the first two years of a child's life and I was like I
01:30:44
questioned her on that I was like and then I looked at the stats and I looked at the research and she basically makes the case that because the the mother is
01:30:50
producing certain hormones so I searched and it was true we fact checked that episode and then beyond there the the the man
01:30:56
her father brings out another set of hormones in the in the young child which are about play and adventure and all these kinds of things so she makes the
01:31:03
case that we've kind of lied to women and we've told them that they can have it all they can have an incredible
01:31:08
career they can also be incredible mothers and um she says that in her office she often sees mothers coming in
01:31:14
saying that they're 39 years old they're struggling they're trying to do IVF they feel like they were lied to throwing all
01:31:20
of that out there I'm going to quote Scott to Scott which is you can have it all just not at the same time yeah I
01:31:26
don't you know it's we can talk about what is the best hormone balance and brings out the best in kids and then there's the real world and my partner was working at Goldman Sachs with two
01:31:38
babies and getting up at 5: in the morning and it was hell for her and at the same time and I you know at the same
01:31:45
time I was struggling with trying to get economic traction because my whole identity as a man I'm not proud of this
01:31:51
has been defined by money so is mine I don't think men say this enough like yeah of I I thought this was really
01:31:59
weird cuz I'm we're we're in Austin right now and my team put me up in a hotel and it's just like a normal Hotel I'm like so I don't give a [ __ ] my girlfriend comes to town tonight immediately my brain goes oh my God we
01:32:10
need to move into a better Hotel Airbnb because my girlfriend I've been with her for seven years she doesn't give off H yeah she doesn't care about material
01:32:16
things she doesn't have a Louis Vuitton anything she's a breath work she's a yogi right but there's still this part
01:32:22
of me even at this stage where I'm like convinced she's not going anywhere where I constantly think
01:32:27
about I need to be successful I need to have money I need to demonstrate strength or she won't like me it's so it's so weird because it's not true like
01:32:38
objectively I know it's not true but it's in me I don't know I think it's mostly true what do you mean I think in
01:32:45
a capitalist Society the health care of your children the opportunities your children have your ability to provide
01:32:53
your ability to take care of your parents unfortunately in our society is so tightly correlated to money yeah that
01:33:02
I I think at the end of the day masculinity kind of comes down to provider protector and procreator and I
01:33:08
think every young man should take at least start with the notion they're going to be the economic provider and by
01:33:14
the way that might mean getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who happens to be better at the whole money thing than you that's
01:33:20
part of masculinity too but a good place to start is to assume in a capital society that you're just you have a responsibility to be economically viable
01:33:31
and every piece of incentive in our society I remember in the 70s when I was in grade school our principal was a cool guy he wore cool jackets and he had great hair and he smelled Aqua Velva and
01:33:43
he drove a 240Z you could be a High character handsome interesting cool guy into karate or whatever now I just think
01:33:50
it's all about the Benjamins I just it is so our society democracy your rights your sexual attractiveness as a man I don't care what yeah write me an article about how
01:34:02
men just need to be emotionally available [ __ ] it's it's so disappointingly about money in my view all the incentives telling young men and so they go to these get-rich quick
01:34:14
schemes if they can make money they feel they feel like losers but what you're feeling quite frankly is common sense from every signal that if for some reason it doesn't work out with your
01:34:25
mate your selection set of mates how interesting you are to other men your opportunities your rights your democracy
01:34:32
is going to be based on your ability to be economically powerful it's not the way the world should be but it is the
01:34:38
way the world is and when I say to young men is there's just no getting around it you have to be economically viable would
01:34:45
you say the same thing to women or would you say there's no getting around it you have to be hot no I think women I think
01:34:52
women unfortunately so this is base analysis women men get turned on with their eyes it's more important for a woman to be aesthetically attractive than a man we
01:35:05
men women get turned on with their ears that's the way I would describe it I think women economic Liberation and
01:35:11
Independence is Paramount you know the thing that was the hardest thing in my life growing up you know whatever trauma
01:35:18
I had was not having wasn't not having a dad in my life it was that me and my mom didn't any [ __ ] money and it was
01:35:25
humiliating for us it was very hard on her it was emotionally very trying on her because she felt like she was
01:35:30
failing as a mother so I think women Absolut women making a lot of money is a collective victory of our society it is hugely important and wonderful we should
01:35:44
do nothing to get in the way of that that doesn't in any way though obviate the fact that a man's opportunity sexual
01:35:51
currency and place in our society is almost going to have an R of one regardless of how many subscriptions to
01:35:58
the Atlantic or the New York Times you have if his economic viability and I just don't I think it's gotten worse I I don't think it's got you used to be able to if you were a High character kind of
01:36:09
cool interesting nice guy who was a principal at a junior high school you had sexual currency now I think you can
01:36:15
be a [ __ ] [ __ ] but if you've sold $10 million in DOA coin you can get laid and and it's just getting worse because our capitalist economy is providing so
01:36:27
many advantages solely based on money and it sends the wrong signal but I just tell I just tell dudes you have to be economically viable and some of that is just having discipline around saving
01:36:38
money and showing that you have your active maybe you don't make a lot of money but I'm responsible I'll be a good
01:36:44
mate I'll be a good partner maybe you're making more money to me but I'll bring discipline you know I I I know how to
01:36:51
fix [ __ ] I I can be a good but one of the things I really am worried about in America is just
01:36:58
everything has become About the Benjamins character is being squeezed out by money God that sounded awful I want to ask you have you ever
01:37:10
felt what Scott describes have you ever felt that your sort of sense of selfworth equates to how much money you
01:37:15
have because I felt that I don't think I as much have money equals identity and selfworth but I do think for many people there's a sense that money equals security and so we're all chasing that
01:37:28
dollar which is security but I think for men it's much stronger I don't relate to what you're talking about yeah so this
01:37:35
is I've never actually asked a woman this before but um it's the number one topic of conversation in my group chat
01:37:42
with my boys is how much are we working Saturday and Sunday to make more money make ourselves more successful and then
01:37:48
one of my friends who's not in my group chat but one of my extended friends went through financial hard hardship
01:37:54
and um he's in the leadup to starting a family Etc and he went through a moment where he was going to be declared bankrupt and he was inconsolably um depressed his partner
01:38:06
was fine she was kind of like you know we'll get through this but he as it was like his he actually said to me he goes I've never quote I've never felt more
01:38:12
worthless and that's something that I've heard echoed by many men who go you know go through sort of economic uh Financial
01:38:19
roller coasters and that was actually one of the stats in that report the boys reporter Richard Reeves talks about this
01:38:25
I think that's actually where it comes from so Richard Reeves says that the number one cause of death for young men
01:38:32
under 15 is suicide and that men in general the things that they describe in their notes when they commit suicide are
01:38:39
these words worthless and useless and so if men feel like their identity and their value and their worth comes from money when they don't have money or they can't
01:38:50
be a provider and they're sort of on the edge of Society then they're literally opting out sometimes with their
01:38:57
lives okay I want to take the metaphorical iPad and ask you guys some questions because I feel like I've kind
01:39:03
of said what I want to say about this topic but I'm sure there are just millions of people that look up to both
01:39:09
of you as symbols of masculinity Scott this is true right moms talk to you all the time and say how can I help my son
01:39:15
and so like there's things that I want to know because this topic is the thing I'm most passionate about I want to
01:39:20
spend the next five years really helping with this problem and the mating Gap but I don't know that men will listen to me
01:39:27
but they will listen to you so I want to learn from you so if you could teach a dating boot camp to all guys and even talk about what you would have them
01:39:37
unlearn what are some of those messages I would dating boot camp yeah um or being a human boot camp let's just extend we have module one comedy oo
01:39:50
because the only thing that got me laid when I was broke was I was like slightly funny sometimes yeah I could be broken
01:39:56
impr this could be just this yeah keep going um something around confidence which is just standing I noticed that
01:40:02
posture correlates to dating success so I'd have men learn to to stand up straight and to control their posture
01:40:09
and take up more space and I mean that in the nicest possible way which is don't be shriveled so like stand up
01:40:14
standing up straight which is obviously one of the things that going to the gym does it kind of pulls you out a little bit as well typical um but going out of
01:40:21
fashion male manners open up the door I still open up the door for my girlfriend every single day
01:40:27
even though apparently they went through a phase where that was seen as like not okay to do but I've always taken great
01:40:33
pride in it and funnily enough opening up the door for my partner makes me feel good I'm like doing it for selfish reasons it makes me feel like a man it
01:40:39
makes me feel strong also like when a bus comes I love the fact that I put my hand across my girlfriend that for me
01:40:45
makes me feel like a man I love that when we cross a road I'm the one that's looking out I love that I stand on the
01:40:50
the roads side of the pavement Etc so I teach men these kind of behaviors and definitely going to the gym and then as
01:40:57
Scott said like entrepreneurship or making some money that would be Central to my boot C I'll give you one
01:41:02
more it would be conflict resolution and this goes to like the emotional empathy
01:41:08
point one thing that I struggle with or at least I struggled with until my girlfriend coached me and I did this
01:41:14
podcast so many times that I learned some lessons is just how to deal with conflict um when when the spiring
01:41:19
partner is a woman because men in Conflict we have a certain way typically but learning the skill of hearing and
01:41:25
understanding your partner and which is very difficult and like listen this might just be me I find it incredibly difficult to sit and to listen to my
01:41:36
partner for 90 minutes when she tells me indirectly all the things I did wrong I've had to learn the skill of doing
01:41:43
that and I I sat here with someone who's a psychologist and said um she they they said to me if you're a man you have to
01:41:48
learn the skill of sitting down for n 90 minutes a week and letting your partner tell you everything that they're feeling
01:41:54
and going through with my boys we don't do that when we go on holiday it is total silence we what we're eating
01:42:00
[ __ ] Pringles and watching the game when but when I'm with my partner and I'm sure when she's with her friends
01:42:06
it's talking so I I always I I've developed the skill now of just like sitting and listening and then sometimes
01:42:12
I take notes and then sometimes I repeat back to her what she just said to me and this is totally alien to me and it hurts
01:42:18
when I do it it like hurts and I find it so uncomfortable like I find it really really uncomfortable to do that even though this is something you spend hours a week doing for 100% it's so unnatural to me
01:42:31
but you've worked on it I've worked on it yeah I did it like three days ago my girlfriend said I was traveling around the world we were in I don't even know
01:42:37
what country we're in she goes I I've got some things I want to talk about um can we put some time in the calendar do
01:42:42
you have 60 minutes I'm I've gone off stage in Sweden I put in 60 minutes into my calendar she video calls me and she
01:42:48
talks to me for about 45 minutes I don't have anything to say I'm so and I just sit there and listen and in between the
01:42:55
lines it's like things I could do better she's she's not blaming me or anything but it's it's hard for me my boys would
01:43:00
never do that our friendship isn't contingent on those things so that's what I would say I love that like I
01:43:07
don't know if that you relate to that but I think about this a lot with my boys and I think kind of the three legs
01:43:12
of the stool are provider I'm probably over focused on the economics that doesn't necess mean making a lot of
01:43:18
money but at least being disciplined and responsible about it developing skills certific having a plan right be don't be
01:43:25
the guy ordering a bottle of Grey Goose at 2 in the morning like I'm going home because I got to get up you know I have I have a
01:43:31
plan and you know I have a vision for how I'm going to be a good provider a protector
01:43:39
good manners your default system is protection you you constantly talk speak well of people behind their backs you hear someone being critical of someone else your
01:43:51
inclination is to defend them you don't demonize special interest groups your default setting if somebody needs help anywhere or is being threatened it just
01:44:03
it's so heartbreaking to me that women feel unsafe when they see men when they see a group of men coming down the
01:44:09
street survey show women are inclined to cross the street and it just feels like
01:44:14
from an early age men need to be taught anyone smaller anyone more vulnerable than you anyone in a special interest group you're def fault is protection that's what men do think about
01:44:26
masculinity a soldier a cop a fireman what do they do at the end of the day they protect that is your default
01:44:33
operating system as a move to protection and then procreator I think you should want to
01:44:39
have sex I think you should be willing to take risks I tell my boys I did this for a while they can't get back in the
01:44:46
house unless they talk to a stranger and my oldest no problem hey what's going on what my youngest not as easy just go up and pet their dog I
01:44:59
think there are so many men out there that have no willingness or ability to open
01:45:05
to you know to just say hi where are you from to just open and to want a romantic
01:45:14
relationship is a wonderful thing there's nothing wrong with that modulate your porn
01:45:21
decide ask yourself would you want to have sex with you get strong get fit get get your act together smell nice groom if you can't dress well find someone who
01:45:33
can dress you and initiate contact and want to have a relationship with someone that's a wonderful thing that Mojo is the the most purposeful wonderful thing in my life is that I'm raising two
01:45:49
patriotic decent men and it started with me really wanting to have sex with this
01:45:54
woman I saw at the pool at the Raleigh Hotel right and I know that sounds crass it's like I looked at her and thought I
01:46:00
am really attracted to this woman so I'm going to take a risk in the middle of the day without the benefit of alcohol
01:46:06
I'm going to walk up and introduce myself to her and another guy and woman she was with hey where are you guys from
01:46:12
and then 18 months later our first son was born middle named Raleigh after the hotel take risks be want to have meeting
01:46:22
opportunity you're a provider your default system is a protector and there's nothing wrong
01:46:29
with wanting to be a procreator I love everything you said and then one thing was going through my
01:46:35
head as you said it was it feels really sad that in this moment at time we have to tell people to become procreators
01:46:41
don't you feel like there's something sick in our society if that has to be taught evolutionarily all of our
01:46:49
software is towards procreation like that is we are wired yet people are so sick from the food that they eat from all the medications that people are on from all the pornography from all the
01:47:01
technology that you literally have to teach your sons the importance of procreation and that's why I'm here and
01:47:06
that's why I'm really freaked out by all of this stuff because we are at a point in society where in South Korea of a
01:47:13
hundred people of childbearing age they are going to produce 12 grandchildren based on a seven birth rate and the fact that you talk about the PE of
01:47:25
procreation like I'm so worried about our society it's 60% of 4 of 30y olds 40 years ago used to have a kid now it's 27% so when I was on the plane on the way here I told this woman who was
01:47:39
sitting next to me what I was going to be talking about and her gut reaction was oh why do we have to worry about
01:47:44
that women are doing better than men like great let us do that for the first time in history like her gut reaction was why is this a problem I then I
01:47:50
started telling her these stats around lowest um marriage rate near we're approaching the lowest marriage rate in US history the birth rate has gone down 20% in 20 years and she didn't know
01:48:03
these numbers and I feel like people are afraid to talk about this topic because they think it's a zero sum game where
01:48:09
when men lose women win and vice versa but right now we're all losing there's huge economic impact too because it used to be 12 people working age to support every senior now it's 3 to one if we
01:48:21
don't have kids we're going to go into economic decline yeah South Korea is replacing its Nursery schools with its
01:48:27
nursing homes like they are the anti- example for us and I think people need to be paying attention by 2050 about 40%
01:48:34
of the population will be senior citizens in the labor force could have hared within the next 40 years the bank
01:48:39
of Korea warns that if current trends persist the Korean economy could begin Contracting in 10 years
01:48:45
time and this presents a national service risk as the country relies on its conscripted military this will fall by hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people by 2025 the half oh my gosh could
01:48:58
fall from 250,000 troops to 125,000 troops politics is the last thing I wanted to talk about and how this sort of intertwines with um everything we've talked about today obviously Trump is
01:49:11
now in power and um as we saw in the data and it was touched on earlier on young men have become more right leing
01:49:17
and more conservative than ever before the left hasn't necessarily offered the best Best vision of
01:49:23
masculinity the young men is something Scots talked about previously I was wondering I think this morning in the hotel I was wondering I was like how are
01:49:31
how is the left going to get men back is that possible because the vision of masculinity this is something Scotts talked about that the left portrays is not doesn't seem to be in line with all
01:49:42
the things we've just described that we feel intuitively as men the things we think are important like economic
01:49:47
viability being strong you know all that's SK goovers well on the right they've conflated masculinity with coarseness and cruelty the two kind of Role
01:50:02
Models you know president Trump who in my opinion demonstrates a lack of Grace and a lack of empathy and a lack of kindness and
01:50:12
Elon Musk is concurrently being sued by two women for sole custody of their their kid because he
01:50:20
hasn't seen the kid I mean is that those are the role models we want for young men and on the left their vision of
01:50:27
masculinity is act more like a woman I don't think that's helpful either I went to the Democratic National
01:50:33
Convention and there was a parade of special interest groups everyone was represented except for the group that
01:50:40
needs the most representation right now in my view and that is young men if you go to the DNC website they list 16
01:50:45
special interest groups and they say who we serve they call it out who we serve Asian Pacific Islanders seniors
01:50:52
the disabled immigrants black Americans and I added it up it's 74% of the US population and
01:51:00
when you say you're actively advocating for 74% you're not advocating for the 74%
01:51:05
you're discriminating against the 26% and who are the 26% young men is this a consequence of Dei I think that's part of it I think there's been so many groups that have been discriminated
01:51:17
against and the the way I would just Loosely describe the Democratic party is we have the right ideas and then we just take it to too far you know there were
01:51:25
women have gotten a raw deal so they need Advantage you know gays have been persecuted people non-whites have had
01:51:32
there were 12 black people in 60 years ago in Princeton Harvard and Yale combined that was a problem this year
01:51:40
more than 60% of Harvard's Freshman Class identify as non-white so I think we got to get out of identity politics
01:51:47
but the notion I I this this it largely came from the left this notion of toxic masculinity there's no such thing
01:51:58
because there's violence there's people are criminals there's people who are unkind that means they're not masculine
01:52:04
masculinity is being a protector a provider a procreator and the Democratic party seems to believe that leaning into anything around your advantage of being male in terms of your strength your
01:52:17
kindness you're wanting to procreate you're initiating sexual contact or sex romantic interest
01:52:23
is somehow a threat and somehow toxic I just think they've sent absolutely the right wrong signal and into that void has stepped basically thinly veiled
01:52:34
misogyny that is just so ugly you know the the the and and he Trump flew right into it the reason Trump won this election in my view is the groups that pivoted hardest from Blue to Red 2020 to
01:52:50
2024 were Latinos were sick of being categorized by their identity but numbers two and three were people under
01:52:56
the age of 30 especially males who are not doing very well and feel like Donald Trump feels their pain and women age 45
01:53:04
to 64 and my thesis is that's their mothers because if your son isn't doing well you don't care about territorial
01:53:10
sovereignty and Ukraine or transgender rights you just want to change my son isn't doing well those are the people
01:53:15
that whisper to me in the streets about these conversations it's the 40 to 55y old mother who has a son who doesn't feel like she can speak up but says to me privately that she's worried about
01:53:29
her her kids and actually we had some y some mothers right in all of which wanted to stay Anonymous saying this
01:53:34
exact same thing they've got an 18-year-old son they're super concerned they've got a 16-year-old son the son looks lost um as the stats show from the
01:53:42
report they're not leaving home in the same way that women their daughters leave home but they don't know what to
01:53:48
do about it so for those parents that are listening now we can't change society um what would you recommend a parent of a young boy does first thing is forgive yourself
01:54:00
there's this natural part of a separation where and I think this is true of girls but especially boys where to make the separation easier we don't get along
01:54:13
with our parents in our senior year in high school and that doesn't mean your son doesn't
01:54:18
love you that doesn't mean your son's not going to figure it out but to forgive yourself there's but going back to more
01:54:25
actionable things try and get male uh try and get men involved in his life um and then you know dumb stuff like my mom made sure I was in Boy
01:54:36
Scouts my mom when I got caught from the high school basketball and football team she enrolled me in City League so I
01:54:43
could continue to play sports but it was mostly she was ensured that I had men in my life and I think that was really
01:54:50
really important for me but I you know I would just say that I feel like I need to coach men more like what I say to boy one of the first thing I say to boys I had lunch with and was never I had lunch
01:55:03
with someone who's a fairly famous news anchor and her son and I asked the mom to EXC they started going at it and I
01:55:09
asked the mom to excuse herself and I said to the mom I'm like you realize this is the only person in your life
01:55:15
ever that wants you to be more successful than you you just got to cut this [ __ ] out this woman is not your
01:55:21
enemy because and I heard that and I was sh I was a bit ashamed because I remember
01:55:27
like being such an [ __ ] to my mother you know so I think but I think I could say that to him because I could look him in the eyes and say what the [ __ ] you doing so I just think that male
01:55:40
involvement for single mothers and I think men are really willing to get involved whether it's
01:55:46
someone down the street a coach your you know a sibling your brother whatever it is but I do think again the research
01:55:54
shows that the the the point of failure is when a boy loses a male role model and also to forgive yourself being a single parent with a son I think that's
01:56:06
hard I just think it's hard Logan you've got some questions I can see right pce of paper I do have some questions for
01:56:12
Scott but I would love for you to answer them too so one of them is what is something about being a man that you
01:56:18
learned growing up that you have had to unlearn and I'm wondering specifically and how
01:56:24
you're raising your sons to avoid some of those things I think a great proxy for masculinity and manhood is and Richard reev introduced me to this I think it's so powerful and that a
01:56:36
surplus value it's not about a religious ceremony it's not about having sex it's
01:56:41
not about an age it's about getting to the point of surplus value you create more tax revenue than
01:56:49
you absorb I say to my boys your negative value look at all the resources going into look at all the love we love
01:56:56
you so much more than you love us your teachers are spending all this time in energy and you're giving you aren't
01:57:01
giving anything back at some point that needs to Pivot so creating more tax revenue noticing people's life registering more complaints from other people than you are complaining
01:57:14
protecting people you know adding Surplus value so you know these Notions that and and I wasn't that guy I wanted more from everyone else than I was giving I
01:57:28
was the guy that's when someone honked to me I was a guy that sped up and honk back to restore the universe to its
01:57:34
place if a Delta if a if a ticket counter agent at the airline counter was rude to me I needed to get back in their face to restore Harmony to the universe because I'm a [ __ ] baller and what
01:57:44
you realize is being a man is occasionally taking a hit right it's having Surplus value it's noticing
01:57:51
people's lives it's listening to complaints it's occasionally thinking well maybe this person who com me off in
01:57:56
traffic I don't know what's going on with them maybe their kid has diabetes maybe they're going through divorce it's adding more value than you're taking and
01:58:04
until the age of like 40 I looked at every relationship am I getting more out of this than I'm giving and if I'm not
01:58:10
I'm out and what you realize is good business Partnerships you add as much or more value than your partners good relationships you witness the person's life you make them feel [ __ ] awesome
01:58:21
if you leave this world a little bit in debt that's the whole point that's the whole point or a little bit the world's in debt to you that's the win and I used
01:58:33
to think as a young man that meant I needed to exit the relationship I'm not getting more money or Services than I'm
01:58:40
giving I'm not getting more kindness than I'm not giving I'm not getting more hot experiences with this romantic
01:58:45
partner than they're giving me I'm out no it's the other way around being a man is Surplus value yeah I've never thought
01:58:52
about that before but it's so true that like as a man you should aspire to be considered generous and actually the first time someone called me generous was like such
01:59:03
an unbelievably wonderful compliment to me because it means that people see you as someone that's giving things but to
01:59:09
answer your question for me it was just um a willingness to express my emotions when I'm struggling that's like the
01:59:16
that's always been the difficult thing for me especially because of everything I've said earlier about wanting to be strong wanting to be a provider there
01:59:22
are going to be moments where regardless of how well you play the the game of life you're going to struggle and I did
01:59:27
not have the tools I still really don't have great tools for this but to turn to someone and say I'm really struggling
01:59:32
with this and not to feel emasculated um and I would say that because as a man pretty much the only person you have in your life typically that you can turn to is your your your your romantic
01:59:46
partner that's also the last person you want to turn to and say you're struggling because again for me that felt like I was being emasculated so I
01:59:53
remember the day very vividly when I was like 30 years old turning to my girlfriend and like running the
02:00:00
experiment of letting her know that I was struggling with something and how difficult that was but
02:00:06
the only reason I did it was because I almost felt like I had no [ __ ] choice I I'd like gotten to the point I was
02:00:11
like I need to tell someone this and she was the the only person and I still don't think I'd tell my my guy friends
02:00:19
everything I would tell them some things but I don't think I'd tell them everything and when I look at the stats around mental health and depression
02:00:25
which are absolutely horrific and some of these quotes that we had from some of the guys that wrote Into the show this guy Liam said for me the biggest
02:00:31
challenge that young men face today is I feel like I'm striving for meaning but I can't find it anywhere I struggle to
02:00:37
even sleep at night with some form of substance because my brain is constantly firing different scenarios at me that
02:00:42
I'm failing in my life when I am alone with my thoughts it's like having never-ending lesson about how useless I
02:00:48
am and how I need to change everything in my life and the hardest part is I can't even tell anybody this because I
02:00:53
would feel weak and then this guy Jeffrey wrote in and said my entire life I've never felt like I was good enough
02:01:00
like I could never earn my place in society and even though I think I've achieved some things by the age of 18 I
02:01:07
still feel like deep inside I will never be enough and I'm still not enough and I can't tell anybody and I think that's a problem
02:01:14
that's quite unique to men it might be a problem unique to my upbringing but I just don't have the tools so when I look
02:01:20
at the stats around depression and Men killing themselves 75% of suicides in the UK are men and 75% of the worldwide
02:01:28
are men and suicide as you said I think earlier as the leading cause of death amongst young men in 50 countries yeah
02:01:33
if you feel that meaningless and you feel that worthless and you don't have anyone to console about it to maybe tell you that you're wrong you know that's
02:01:41
why when Scott said that you don't necessarily buy the research that women are looking for someone who's emotionally intelligent fine then don't
02:01:47
do it for your partner do it for yourself yeah I just saw the stand up special by kumel nanani it's it'll I'm
02:01:54
sure it'll like come out on streaming soon but the last 20 minutes was pretty incredible basically turned from like
02:02:00
sort of silly standup into kind of like his Ted talk so he told this amazing story about how one day he was speaking
02:02:08
to the press and he said I started to go to therapy when there were a bunch of bad reviews about my movie because I
02:02:14
realized so much of my identity was tied up in external factors and this turned into headlines around the world that
02:02:21
said bad review land Kum nanian therapy and he was really frustrated by this so in the standup special he took the five most popular things that people said criticizing him and he broke down each
02:02:33
one so for example one of them was oh boohoo poor you know super rich movie star feels sad about bad reviews we should all feel sad for him and he's like no you don't have to feel sad for
02:02:44
me but I can feel sad for me and he went through all these things and he talked about his therapy journey and how before
02:02:49
therapy he thought I just don't experience negative emotions I don't experience sadness and through therapy
02:02:55
he understood oh I experience sadness all the time but I don't allow myself to feel it so it just comes out as anger so
02:03:02
he told a story about talking to his dad on the phone his dad had just been in a car accident but was fine and then he
02:03:07
helped his dad through that experience and then a few hours later he's like where the [ __ ] is my Ninja Turtle
02:03:12
t-shirt and it's like he needed therapy to explain to him he's not upset about the T-shirt he's upset about his dad but
02:03:20
I think that the fact that he you know in his 40s or however old he is had to learn that it makes me feel like everyone needs to learn that if it's not for a romantic partner then it's for
02:03:31
yourself because a life sucks if you can't cry you can't express emotions you don't have people to talk to and so
02:03:37
forget about attracting a mate just not killing yourself just being a happier person I think we just need more room
02:03:43
for men to express emotions the first time I went to a therapist was when I was about about 30
02:03:51
30 1 and I put it off for so [ __ ] long for this reason because every part of it made me feel like emasculated and as a man you're like I know I can deal with everything myself and I've got this
02:04:03
like like I said when the bus comes I put my hand in front of my girlfriend I'm always the protector so when you find yourself in a position like these
02:04:09
men who've written into the show where you feel meaningless or you feel hopeless or there's some other challenge in your life you think it's your job to
02:04:17
fix well I I thought it was like my job to fix and also like maybe because I've been a CEO since the age of of 18 I'm
02:04:24
always like holding for for everybody so you learn to like keep a [ __ ] straight face the business is on fire we
02:04:30
have no money to pay 170 people's wages and it's Friday and they're expecting like you learn this skill of like
02:04:36
numbness and that doesn't serve you when you're trying to resolve something and this is why I think corn uh gambling
02:04:43
addiction become the Avenue because there's not another Avenue to to sort of take pressure off the pressure valve so yeah difficult it's difficult the way
02:04:55
you the email you just read from that young man I I've stopped and it sounds crash I can't handle the emails I get anymore I'm getting so many emails from young men who are
02:05:08
just I mean you like you read an email like that and you just like it's devastating you know I haven't gotten over the death of my father I'm living alone I've become addicted to op I mean
02:05:23
you just hear this [ __ ] like I know I have value to add I just can't figure it out or I mean just there's just so many
02:05:31
of these men out there and I think a lot of it is I always looked to economics I'm like we've got to figure out
02:05:37
vocational programming I think we should have national service so people feel a sense of identity and connection and
02:05:43
purpose some of the lowest levels of young adult depression are in Israel despite all the existential threats
02:05:49
because they all serve in the IDF for two to three years I think we need more freshman seats at colleges I think we need more third places where people uh I think a lot of it comes down to
02:06:01
economics and policy programs I think there's a lot we can do to help young men but in the US it's now 77% moving to 80% suicides it's 4 to one if there was
02:06:13
any special interest group you go into a Morgan America and five people di by Suicide four men if that was any other
02:06:19
special interest group versus the control group they'd weigh in with programs but because of the enormous
02:06:25
Advantage I registered and let's be honest it was enormous basically all Prosperity In America which was
02:06:30
unprecedented was crammed into 30% of the population basically white males so we just had we had staggering advantage and now 19-year-old males are
02:06:42
paying the price for my advantage there's really a lack of empathy for them and what I do think is hopeful is
02:06:49
that s and women in society now realize that the country and women are not going to
02:06:57
continue to flourish if men are flailing and it finally feels like we're having a
02:07:02
real program the governor Marilyn Westmore has said that his Focus for his administration this is a governor of a
02:07:08
state a liberal state is going to be on helping the state's young men I mean that took such [ __ ] balls for him to say that and you know what the populists
02:07:19
received it well because on the ground people are feeling it they're really feeling how much young men are struggling so I'm actually quite hopeful
02:07:30
that we've turned a corner in terms of the dialogue because when I started talking about this four or five years
02:07:36
ago and right away oh you're massage your hair wasn't on fire when women were I mean just oh it was such there was
02:07:44
such a gag reflex it has changed so dramatically in the last four or five years where do we send these guys
02:07:52
that's a great question and I wish I had a list of resources I'm trying to assemble it around all right I mean I'm I'm involved with it
02:08:03
because it's difficult to discern between ordinary young adult or adolescent problems and when a kid's
02:08:09
suicidal I wish I had some sort of AI filter that would go this kid needs help right away like there here are some
02:08:15
resources here are some men's groups you know and I do a shitty job I can't talk to all of them a couple of them I take
02:08:21
the laser I say here's 500 bucks do better help online therapy I'll pay for your first four sessions yeah just be
02:08:26
but I got to be honest I don't know I mean I think we should put together this list of resources and I feel like there
02:08:32
are good guys out there I put Chris Williamson in this group I put both of you out there podcasts are how a lot of
02:08:39
modern wisdom is being expressed right now right you don't go to church you get your sermon through your airpods so like
02:08:46
who are the guys that are saying healthy things and I feel like if we can fill their ears with the healthy messages of
02:08:52
masculinity we are taking away the space and the attention from the people that are really profiting from these negative
02:09:01
messages I think you need a place to send the people who email you and I I I appreciate the offer and we should do
02:09:06
this but we should have a list that says all right what what are you struggling with and here are some here are some
02:09:14
resources or things you should think about but even what you both said to my answer or to my question around like
02:09:19
what's the Boot Camp or what would you tell guys like that's not a crazy list I think it's like for a lot of these guys to have you as sort of a ra male role
02:09:30
model of like go to the gym make money be kind look out for others like I just feel like that can be condensed into and maybe that's what your new book is but like truly I think people are looking
02:09:44
for a script with the lack of religion lack of institution we've lost all these scripts that tell people what to do
02:09:51
let's write a new script it's on you brother you're younger you got more tread on your you
02:09:56
you've got you look at all these cameras I'm I mean somebody's gonna watch this and pull it together into all of your advice but I'm just saying I like the idea of a collective it needs to get out
02:10:08
there because if you don't fill the space somebody else will and they already are and it's not the messages
02:10:15
that you want to have the next population the Next Generation having I agree we'll talk about this camera
02:10:24
two man anything else you wanted to ask us I know you see you're SC to her views if you've got any other questions you
02:10:30
wanted to ask no I'm just really glad that we're having this conversation I feel like maybe I wouldn't have had this conversation a year ago I do think the
02:10:37
tide is turning I think the title of the report as Lost Boys is very helpful and I just want to end with the message that
02:10:44
women don't have to do worse when men do better and vice versa and let's raise up
02:10:51
everyone so that we're all thriving and yeah let's help these Lost Boys And also help women any closing points when it's smad Scott oh well just a message to young people in general The Arc of
02:11:06
Happiness is a smile and that is kind of zero to 18 is prom football you know making out it's generally pretty happy the least happy years for people are usually
02:11:20
kind of 18 to 45 economic stress relationships are hard you probably are someone you love a great deal gets sick and dies and if
02:11:30
you're struggling what I what I would just say is you know don't be afraid to reach out
02:11:36
for help but also realize that if you're not a member of Parliament and you don't have a fragrance named after you it
02:11:42
doesn't mean you're failing and to forgive yourself and to recognize that those are tough years I you know when my first kid was born I tell this story a
02:11:53
lot it's supposed to be Angel singing and bright lights I felt nothing but shame I was 42 and I was broke I had put
02:12:00
everything into my tech company great financial recession came along I think I my account called me and said you're
02:12:06
worth a negative $2 million if we look at your debts you're worth negative2 million and about that time my oldest
02:12:13
son had the poor judgment to come rotating out of my girlfriend and all I felt with this kid was shame like I have
02:12:20
failed I failed myself and now I failed on an entirely new dimension as a provider and a father that was the first thing I felt when my son was born and I
02:12:32
wrote about it and I can't tell you how many men I heard from that all I felt when I had my first kid or kids was a sense of embarrassment and that I was already failing that energy that you
02:12:45
felt at that moment did you Channel it into something or were you tempted nausea nausea I was in the delivery room
02:12:52
and they were more worried about me and they thought it was because I was grossed out by birthing it was because I was so ashamed I would just immediately
02:12:58
felt like oh my God how did I put myself in a position where I'm a terrible provider on day one I just felt a
02:13:06
tremendous amount of Shame and I think most people when you talk to them at some point have felt really down and
02:13:14
really like embarrassed and I just don't think that's anything unusual and you you you
02:13:20
want to you want to forgive give yourself you want to say to yourself I can add value to a company I can make
02:13:27
someone very happy you know and try and surround yourself with people that make you feel good about yourself and every day just little baby steps write some things down trying to exercise trying to
02:13:40
eat well I can tell when I'm getting depressed and I have this method of getting out of it I call it scaffa scafa
02:13:46
sweat it's like resets my operating system clean try and eat really well at home abstinence and when I say absence abstinence from pot and alcohol both of
02:13:57
which I love and I'm really good at them they add value to my life but when I'm not feeling good I take them out of my
02:14:03
life because whatever's going on with my sensors I just don't want to mess with them f is um family I find being around
02:14:10
my boys is really important and then a is affection I find affection being around even if it's my dogs laying on me or my boys I'll say to my boys let's watch TV and my instinctively throw
02:14:21
their legs on mine not necessarily sex but affection with my partner those are the things that get me out of a dark
02:14:27
place so try and figure out if you can what things help you get out of a dark place but
02:14:33
recognize everyone struggles and I'm not saying that you shouldn't reach out and find help but everything online is
02:14:41
telling you you should be in a Gulf Stream in parting in St Barts no that that's just not that's not the real world and try and build a support system
02:14:53
and also forgive yourself life is happiness is a smile kind of 20 20 to 45 is usually you know it's full of a lot of Joy but it's also full of a lot of
02:15:03
you know oftentimes a lot of anxiety do you go to therapy no have you ever been I did my first marriage we went to marriage counseling and after the first session we decided to get divorced so I'm a little traumatized by therapy yeah
02:15:17
he got right to it saved me real money yeah oh Stephen I wanted to add one more thing I think an underappreciated
02:15:23
resource for men for building empathy is reading fiction books so I'm in a book club I read fiction all the time fiction builds a lot of empathy because you are truly Inside the Mind of somebody else
02:15:35
for two or 300 pages when I talk to guys they so rarely read fiction do you read
02:15:41
any fiction none at all a lot of guys that I talk to they say oh I read non-fiction and there's so many lists
02:15:47
online of like the hundred non-fiction books to get your MBA and it's like we're all reading so much non-fiction on
02:15:53
our phone at all times read a book of fiction get inside the head of somebody else get inside the head of a woman I think that for zero dollars at the local library you can actually become a better
02:16:04
person do you know what's interesting there there's a reason why men read books about how to make money yeah because it goes back to everything we've
02:16:10
said if I said to my boys boys we're gonna start reading fiction that that my my friends read stuff that's going to help them build a business make money or
02:16:17
gain muscle mass yeah but can I convince what what if what if you're single and I'm going to say read this fiction and
02:16:23
you're going to get laid like why can't we just reframe and change the narrative on fiction we I mean I just feel like
02:16:31
there's so many examples of times that I haven't really known what's going on with the group and then I read a book
02:16:36
about that group and I'm not an expert in them but I can think about them more and I just feel like look if you are not
02:16:42
having success with women and you don't have any women in your life read a [ __ ] book by a woman just a quick
02:16:48
anecdote when I was a senior in high school and a freshman in college I remember thinking I'm strange I I'm I'm
02:16:56
I remember feeling very insecure about my own psychological makeup and that didn't help and then I read a bunch of
02:17:02
John Irving novels the world according to GARP Cider House roles and the people in it were just so [ __ ] strange it
02:17:08
made me feel better about myself I'm like oh there's other weirdos out there so what you say really resonates it made
02:17:14
me feel less self-conscious about how unusual I thought I was um so I it just dawned on me that that was a big help for me wow Tik Tok is not going to give
02:17:26
you the empathy that spending 300 Pages Inside the Mind of a person different from yourself will thank you both um for
02:17:34
so many reasons Scott you're actually writing a book at the moment which is going to be published shortly we've talked about it a few times what is the
02:17:40
title of that book and what is it about well I I've determined I don't know how it is for you with books but
02:17:46
basically your publisher does nothing and then and then obsesses over the title that's the value
02:17:51
that is very true so I had it work it was supposed to be originally about masculinity then I realized that I don't
02:17:57
have the skills of the domain expertise to summarize masculinity so I change it to work in progress notes on becoming a
02:18:03
man and I just talk about stories that I've written about about some of the things we've talked about today and trying to use masculinity as a code I
02:18:10
think everyone needs a code whether it's the military the religion their family values and I think
02:18:16
masculinity can serve as a code if defined correctly for young men but it's just a series of like stories about
02:18:23
things I've gone through some of my many ways I failed and what I learned about trying to become a man trying to be a
02:18:29
good dad trying to be a good partner when is it published when is it gonna be published it'll be on the fall on the
02:18:34
fall okay and Logan you have an incredible book which is I mean one of the I think the book on this subject
02:18:41
matter called how to not dial alone the surprising science that will help you find love and what does someone discover
02:18:48
in that book well it's really about understanding the blind spots that hold people back from Finding Love and then
02:18:54
making a plan to overcome them I'm going to link all of Scott's books and all of Logan's book in the comments below for
02:19:01
anybody to read I also wanted to say a huge thank you to the center of social justice for making this report because it's again it's caused a huge
02:19:07
conversation in the UK and now around the world around Lost Boys um we have a closing tradition on this podcast where
02:19:13
the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for and the question I'm going to ask both of you
02:19:19
is Logan what are you most scared of I'm most scared of losing my husband because he has had a brush with death he had very serious bone cancer I
02:19:33
feel like we've just been through such hard stuff with him medically that right now I'm here today with you he's
02:19:40
climbing I was just thinking you know what happens if something happens to him with climbing and we have a one-year-old
02:19:46
daughter and so maybe the most obvious answer is something that happened to my daughter but for me is really something
02:19:51
to happen to my husband SC what do you may SC of the way I took that was what of my most worried about I'm really worried about an epidemic of
02:20:02
loneliness um from a societal standpoint that people are starting to believe they
02:20:08
can disengage from life and that leads to anxiety and depression and polarization that makes
02:20:13
the world a less safe place personally my fear has always been the same I'm always worried that my kind of selfish
02:20:19
instincts manifest in an ugly way and I end up alone and old you know that's my that's my biggest fear that I end up dying under Bright Lights you know
02:20:32
surrounded by strangers that's my biggest fear because your selfish instincts manifest you do something
02:20:38
wrong in your relationship or you [ __ ] up your yeah just so my dad is not a very my dad ended up my dad's basically
02:20:45
alone at 95 and some of his less some of his lower character quality attributes I
02:20:52
see in myself and that's a fear my fear is that you know end up dying surrounded
02:20:58
by strangers Steve do yours the first thing that comes to mind is my something happening to my partner I just can't imagine I just see her as this like perfect human being that was
02:21:11
like this Angel so thinking I just can't imagine ever finding anybody comparable
02:21:17
so something happening to her finding out she was sick I think is the first thing that comes to mind it comes to mind actually but above any anything in
02:21:22
my life and then I do have a little bit of Scott's fear which he expressed there
02:21:28
which is that I will make bad decisions based on I'm going to just say it just like the Temptation Of Life and that'll
02:21:40
Lead Me Up lead me to be a bad father not be around for my kids not be able to be around for my kids and be
02:21:47
lonely and uh old and Rich and miserable it's like kind of a fear I've always had it's interesting I said the word temptation yeah because in the world you know there's a lot of Temptation there is people don't talk
02:22:02
about a lot thank you skull thank you I want to say thank you to you in particular
02:22:07
because you've been one of the leading voices in this fight that's a generous thing to say I appreciate that it's absolutely not generous because it's
02:22:13
absolutely true when people think of this subject matter they think of you now and um you also stuck your neck out
02:22:18
and started speaking about this subject long before it was okay to speak about the subject and you spoke about it in
02:22:24
such an eloquent hilarious Wise Way that both sides listened and I think you're one of the key people on this subject matter who's even allowed these kind of reports to exist because I'm actually
02:22:36
not sure that if it wasn't for you um reports like this would exist I think you're wrong but I'll take it I think I'm absolutely right like I actually think I'm right because the reach you've had on the subject matter is hundreds
02:22:48
and hundreds of millions of people across the e clipse across the podcasts you've done and like I said listen there
02:22:53
wasn't a lot of people saying it before you could say you've actually given cover to a lot of people you've even given cover to me and it's because of
02:23:00
the the the wonderful science and art that you um you deploy as it relates to communication and
02:23:06
Logan thank you as well because you've made the decision as well to lend your voice to this subject matter which is
02:23:12
complicated and it's like problematic and it's full of like landmines it feels like but you're adding an incredibly
02:23:18
important perspective when that comes from tremendous resear live the experience and um you're a very
02:23:23
important I think individual in this in this fight to to speak to speak and to to sort of create a better world for our young and Lost Boys thank you can I thank Scott too knock yourself out you
02:23:36
know just to make you uncomfortable go on okay yeah so as I've been talking to people about my interest in this the first thing they always say is oh the stuff that Scott Galloway is talking about and if you weren't talking about
02:23:47
it I don't think they would have anyone to point to I but I just just need to I feel like a plagiarist because the
02:23:53
majority of my good data comes from Richard Reed I know that that's true but the point is you are the most effective
02:23:59
Communicator in the world right now your ability to turn stories and facts into persuasion is something that no one else is doing so you're taking Richard's data
02:24:10
and combining your lived experience and you're getting this message out there in a way that no one else is doing thank
02:24:16
you that's generous thank you and no one else could reach both sides in such an effective way which I think
02:24:22
is really important so again thank you Scott thank you thank you for being so generous of your time really appreciate
02:24:28
it we launched these conversation cards and they sold out and we launched them again and they sold out again we launched them again and they sold out
02:24:33
again because people love playing these with colleagues at work with friends at home and also with family and we've also
02:24:39
got a big audience that Ed them as Journal prompts every single time a guest comes on the dire of a CEO they
02:24:45
leave a question to the next guest in the diary and I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world
02:24:50
and they've left all of these questions in the diary and I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth one
02:24:57
being a starter question and level three if you look on the back here this is a level three becomes a much deeper
02:25:04
question that builds even more connection if you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code you can see
02:25:11
who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time so if you would like to get your hands
02:25:17
on some of these conversation cards go to the diary.com or look at the link in the description below this has always
02:25:23
blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribe to the show so
02:25:29
could I ask you for a favor if you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you can do just that is
02:25:35
by hitting the Subscribe button and my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my
02:25:40
team to make sure that this show is better for you every single week we'll listen to your feedback we'll find the
02:25:45
guest that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do thank you so much oh
02:25:53
[Music] [Music]