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spoken about quite a few things today that I've never really spoken about. James Smith, the world's fastest growing
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online personal trainer, but he's much more than that. Like a driving instructor, I should not exist in your
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life in 6 months. Why is it so acceptable for people to invest money into fitness professionals and then
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still be there 3 years later? If you do your job well enough, your client leaves. If people were truly happy, I
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would have been shut the hell up then. And I wouldn't have experienced so much growth from pointing out the inadequacies. I don't like people that
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presents a solution without education. It breaks me to think of the tens of thousands of people who gave up on their
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ambitions because they went the wrong way for advice. And when they failed the plan or don't finish it, they blame themselves. Where the hell have you come
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to the conclusion that you would not succeed following your passion? I just wish that maybe earlier on someone had
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said to me, "Okay, you're not doing well here, but this doesn't mean you're not intelligent. There is something else
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that you could do very well at." Quick one. Can you do me a favor if you're listening to this and hit the
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subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this podcast. Thank you so much. James Smith,
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the world's fastest growing online personal trainer, but he's much more than that. He's an author of three
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books. His third one's about to come out. He's unapologetic. He is outspoken. And he says it how it is. And that's meant that he now reaches millions of
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people online every single week. I had an expectation on James. I've seen him on social media. I've seen the types of things he says when he's on telly. But the guy I met today, deeply self-aware,
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unbelievably humble, and so incredibly wise. And because he's so honest and straight talking, I walk away with some lessons that I genuinely believe will stay with me for a lifetime.
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You are going to love this one. Trust me when I say that. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the
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Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
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James, you've listened to this podcast before. Um, so you you probably know that I tend to start in a similar place.
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I tend to ask my guests about their early years. But when I was reading about comments you'd made about your
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early years, one of the things you said is it's not not much very interesting happened. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things
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where I was like, there's there's so many things to talk about, let's not go there. As a young child in school,
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didn't have a huge amount of friends and I think that primary and secondary school, if you had to pick five people
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that are never going to accomplish anything in life, I would have been in that that group of people. uh was
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diagnosed with learning difficulties which kind of been disputed. I remember Jimmy Carr talking about getting that laptop and it's true. You had to see an educational psychologist and at the end
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they were like James' reading and writing speed is very quick. We think he's just lazy. And throughout school I
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was in the cloak room and they give you extra time in exams which I didn't need because I was so bored. I'd be done the
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exam 20 minutes before everyone else and just sat there not through being intelligent but like I can't be bothered
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with this and a lot of behavioral issues at school. Uh if I look back at that I almost feel like my brain was only functioning at 20% throughout the whole education system probably up until
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college and dropping out of university in my first year. And you were adopted. Yes. This is a open topic and I even
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before this podcast I was like I wonder if any other high achievers are adopted. Found Steve Jobs, Jamie Fox, uh Marilyn
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Monroe was in the list and I was trying to figure out if I could draw any, you know, relations to other people that have done it. I've even read books where someone on Instagram's like, "Oh, if
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you're adopted, you should read this." because it resonated with me and I bought these books and talks about
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abandonment and senses of, you know, unfulfillment. I I didn't really relate with any of those topics. So, I think that as far as uh kind of dream adoption
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story, I ended up in the Smith family, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, mom and dad still together now, each other's
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first girlfriend and boyfriend. So, I was incredibly fortunate with that. Having come all this way in your life
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and learned a ton from the books you've written and I know that's such an introspective process, but all the people you've spoken to, all the DMs you
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must get. Are there any sort of dots you've connected now that have made you realize that being adopted was in any way consequential to who you were to become? It's difficult. I'm still discovering
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it. Uh, you know, with relationships, I think it's a very interesting one. I've had conversations with other adopted people and they they say to you like you become very attached to people very
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quickly because you know it's a very strange thing never seeing a blood relative before. So you might look at your parents and other people look at their parents and you know uncle they
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see features. I've never had that. And you never feel like your parents aren't your parents because I'm a strong
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believer there who bring you up. But then sometimes in relationships, maybe I'm a bit cold. Maybe I'm a bit too
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intense. I'm always judging that and overanalyzing it. And people ask me as well, they're like, "Oh, do you think
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you're this way cuz you're adopted?" And suddenly you're overthinking a lot. You're like, "Is it is it not? Is it
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something that's a big part or a small part?" And it's very difficult to get answers for that. when you go through
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school and you go through like early the early teen years and then you've got people telling you you've got a learning
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um issue and then they're giving you special treatment and all these things at that part in your life having like
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bounced around a little bit and not really fit anywhere in terms of the system. Do you think in hindsight you
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you were learning that you were like not good enough? 100%. And I think that I definitely wore
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that for the next four or five years. But I thought the only place I'm going to be accepted is a bottom position in a
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corporate gig. 20K a year. I started off on 18 sales department. I'm going to have to cold call people and kind of work my way up slowly. So that's what I did for my early 20s. Worked in the
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sales department, 18k basic, then jump to another one for 20k basic. I thought, well, I'll do this for 5 to 10 years,
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get to a management role, do that for 5 to 10 years, maybe get near a directorship role. And I think that's
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what a lot of people who have failed the education system think. They're like, well, that's what people do. Oh, I might
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try recruitment, which I also did for a year. And everyone said, oh, you earn good money, but you hate it. And I'm I'm 22.
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I'm like, how can you earn good money and hate it? I did recruitment, it was good money, and I hated it.
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So, it was it's one of those things where definitely I do feel that if we paint people when we see people get bad
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grades at school, we should, you know, have a more open conversation about, okay, you're not doing well at this.
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What do you think you'll be good at? And I mean, even in the last 10 years, don't
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play video games. There's no future in that. Now, there is. You know, don't spend all day on your computer. There's no future in that. Now, there is. So I
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just wish that maybe earlier on someone had said to me, okay, you're not doing well here, but this doesn't mean you're
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not intelligent. There is something else in a lateral, you know, pathway that you
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could do very well at. What would you say to someone, and I imagine there's a lot of people listening to this now, who are driving in their cars now on the
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motorway, cuz I see them upload the podcast when they're like driving, they're on the treadmill on Monday morning, etc., and they're in that job
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where but there's that voice inside them that's saying do you know what you could have done more and you you got so much more potential but they've believed the
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narrative they're like corporate just climb your way up some [ __ ] ladder I have two answers to that first so many people are hitting quotas working for
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someone else's goal so in recruitment people go I just don't think you know I'd be able to accomplish much on my own
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I go okay but you're doing something you don't enjoy and and you're exceeding at it. You're excelling at it. You've hit quota for 3 years in something you're
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not passionate about. Where the hell have you come to the conclusion that you would not succeed following your
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passion? How have you come to that conclusion? That's ridiculous. Now, the second thing is although this has been disputed, I'm a big believer and I'm sure you will too in income society that
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after you earn a certain amount of money, there's a tapering off effect. And it's very difficult to to say that
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because straight away people's defense is, well, it's okay for you because you you've gone past that that curve. I'm
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still on the way up. And I say to them, you're probably working your career for another 10 years because you think in 10
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years time you're going to have enough money to eventually be happy with your situation. What if that bet is wrong?
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What if you've just lost 10 years and you're not happy? What if I think the two people there's
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two ways of thinking. Some people think it's an exponential return where they'll go through misery for long enough and
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then boom, they're just happy. I said to them, how do you think millionaire CEOs wake up out of bed like, "Oh my god,
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life is so good." It's the exact they wake up same as you. Oh, I can't wait to have a cup of coffee. And then the other
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one is more of a linear scale where they go, okay, 30k this much happiness, 40k this much, 50k this much. I say to them, what if in 10 years time you're wrong? M
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10 years is a lot more than 10 years between 30 and 40. 10 years is a lot more than 10 years between 20 and 30.
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Imagine, always think in the back of your mind that that bet is going to be wrong. And if you could fast forward to
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10 years time and see that you made the wrong bet, how would you feel now? Think about that before you make a decision.
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Yeah, it's so true. You know, I linked up linkup TV published a video with me the day and the they put the title as
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like money won't make you happy, which is not what I said, but I understand why they're doing it. We got to get them clicks. And um I did see I saw the
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comments that said a very similar thing. It was like, "Oh, it's easy for you to say." I'm like, "Well, it would take someone that's made a million to tell
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you that a million isn't it. I couldn't have told you when I was broke." Like, so and also I have no incentive to to
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like put you off getting rich. I'm just telling you, I'm letting you know that up here my happiness didn't scale
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proportionate to my wealth uh to a point. So, as you say, 75k per household apparently it starts to plateau. Just
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letting you know. I always say to people, it's very important they understand this. All wins feel the same.
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All wins. That's true. You don't get a new search charge on dopamine. The way our brain chemistry works, you know, okay, pleasure,
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serotonin, dopamine, you don't get a 1.7 search charge because you're wealthy. So, you know, when you secure a deal at
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a mid-level, high level, or you know, stock exchange level, it's the same dopamine response. And it's one of those
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things where people go, "Oh my god." Okay. Yeah. and buying a car, whether it's a Lamborghini or a brand new Golf,
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people cannot comprehend that that win feels the same. And I love to tell them, I'm like, "No, it exactly is." And when
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people set goals, and I don't like the conversation going into fitness, but they say, "I want to lose 10 kg." I'm
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like, "Lose 1 kg, damn it." And then celebrate that because that feeling of stepping on the scale and
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accomplishing something is the same at 1 kg as it is at 10. you've just really bad celebrate wins at the level we choose. Not only do they feel the same, we get
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to determine where those wins are. Did you find that success wasn't what you thought it would be?
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Well, this is interesting because and people don't believe me when I say this. I never intended for this. I never had
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dreams of being what I would I would consider it wealthy. And people will watch this and they'll go, "No, no, no.
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The other guy's wealthy." And I'll say, "No, no, no. From a subjective standpoint, I've been able to buy my
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friends and my family dinner without having to check my bank account for like four years. That's something that I didn't have for
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the 28 before it." That's wealthy, right? And um it it's one of those things that I never really wanted. If
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I'm completely honest, my goal as a personal trainer was 10 clients, three sessions a week, pay me well. I don't
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want 30 clients doing 30 hours. I want 10 that see me three times a week. I'll be in London or I'll be in Sydney. If
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they skip a session, it's £150 an hour, they won't mind because they're good, high level clients. That was it. That
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was the goal. What happened? I became processorientated probably 2015 where on social media
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for the first time, investments don't really interest me that much. And this is another crazy thing people hate me
00:12:32
about. The social media investment did. I will post something useful every day here for years, 10 years I thought. And in 10 years time, hey guys, here's a book. Ching, make 20 grand, whatever.
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And as I was posting into that, email marketing. I wrote email marketing emails for 10 months before I made a
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sale. If you had met me 9 months in, you would have thought I was [ __ ] insane. Hey James, what are you doing? I'm
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writing emails to who? 300 people. What about my online PT program? How many of them buying it? None so far. social media three years in, what are you doing? I'm posting every day. How much
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money have you made? None. People would go, "You're [ __ ] mental." Nowadays, they go, "Okay, fair play." But the the
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the momentum that I wanted, I just wanted a life where I didn't have to seek clients, they'd seek me. I just
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wanted a life where I could post about a book and money would appear in my account. And after doing that for three,
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four years, I feel like the table's hot and I enjoy being at the hot table. And rather than looking at an exit strategy,
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I've created a life that I love where send a marketing email, market my brand so I can get people to email, manage my academy, you know, promote books and
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write them. I have everything I need. I'm I'm like on a wave that just never seems to end. And that to me, I mean,
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Carol Dwek, one of my favorite authors, becoming is better than being. I never wanted to be anything in particular. So
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there's no gold medal depression at the end, right? Remember that from your podcast? That's that's not there for me because I've
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never set an Everest peak. I've never set that. So this wave that's moving for me, I'm just
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happy. And do you know what? I've I joke around all the time. I'm like, if this ends tomorrow, what a ride, you know?
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And I don't think enough people see it that way where, you know, I know you've had the pleasure of taking friends on a
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private jet. I did that once and I was like, "Wow, if I if I die tomorrow, they'll be like, "Rest in peace,
00:14:28
though." Hopefully, they'll cry. He took me on a jet for one night. And um I if this all came crashing down, I'd be happy with that because I never set it. You know, there are so many boxers who
00:14:38
wanted to be heavyweight world champion. They never made it. They've got to go to the grave with that. I almost feel like there's a element of being unbeatable
00:14:46
when I never set a precipice to reach. Yeah. I mean Mo GA which is one of my favorite podcasts I've ever done here talks a lot about that that you know unhappiness is in essence when our
00:14:57
expectations of how life is supposed to be going go unmet and he's the they call him a happiness expert genius on the
00:15:03
topic and even billionaires they have expectations of their steak tasting like Japanese wagu perfection 10 out of 10. So if it comes and it's a 9 out of 10
00:15:13
steak they are often furious. The [ __ ] is this medium rare I said right? Whereas you take that exact same steak,
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you give it to, you know, someone else that's on 18K a year, they'll be like that because their expectations are
00:15:24
lower and their overall standards are lower. They will be over the [ __ ] moon. Same stake, two different people
00:15:30
with two different sets of expectations. It's interesting as well where uh next time you're at a table with people that
00:15:36
are very accomplished, I noticed the people that have experienced the stake that much, they're so much more involved
00:15:43
in conversations because that's the only thing that can interest them on that night. Yeah. They've had 10 and this is
00:15:48
something that petrifies me where sometimes I feel like I want to be successful but not too much because once you've eaten at every
00:15:55
fivestar restaurant in London like you say your standards been set once you've dated 10 models standards have been set
00:16:01
and I almost do feel sorry for sometimes the Bezos the Bilzerians you know I think wow I'm like what what are you doing each day to excite you and this is
00:16:13
why not to hijack the conversation but Brazilian jiu-jitsu for is like a nucleus of my focus, my
00:16:20
attention, what I care about on a daily basis because nothing can really impact that. And I will never be able to get to a status where no matter no matter who I
00:16:31
am, what I do, or what I accomplish, when I step on the mats, we get in belt order. For years at my old gym, we all
00:16:37
wipe down the sweat after the mats, like you know, black belts, get our gears off and we do it. And it's so important to
00:16:43
me that I know that for the rest of my life when I can still train, I will never be too big for that. And I think
00:16:51
that there are so many high achievers that love that connection to it. And I feel sometimes for people that are super successful, they're not getting beatings enough. They're not For me, I can I
00:17:02
remember uh did a businessto business event. I flexed when I was there. I was like, "Hey guys, I was wearing a gold Rolex,
00:17:08
which I actually just sold this morning." And I was there. I was like, "Hey, you know, here's here's what it's like flying first class. We're in OBC."
00:17:14
You know, I reflect on a business tour. Next day, went to compete, lost in the first round, you know, turned up. I was
00:17:20
like, "Wow." It's like, "Thank you for that. Thank you. My weekend, I would have been taking off as far as you go if
00:17:26
it wasn't for getting beaten up on the Sunday." Do you know what? So, so many people had told me about Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And the way they speak about
00:17:32
it isn't like it's a sport or a martial art. It's more like a like a philosophy for life almost. It teaches you life
00:17:38
lessons. And I so many people had told me that in a row that I thought, you know, I [ __ ] need to give this a shot. And I really enjoyed it. Even
00:17:44
though it was one a one-on-one session and I was in Indonesia for 2 hours, I was like, I need to do this more often.
00:17:49
You know, like marketing, social media, email marketing, you are going to be awful for the first 6 months. You are.
00:17:56
But if people persevere through that, and again, I remember where I learned a lot of my business now. So I was I was
00:18:01
in Victoria. I was in a Double Tree Hilton. I was in a room with 200 personal trainers. We all learned the
00:18:07
same thing that day. And I remember the faces of the people in there and I never saw them again. I've never seen them on
00:18:12
socials. I've never seen them on Instagram, on Tik Tok, anywhere like that. And I think to myself, we all learned the same thing, just not all of
00:18:18
us stuck with it through the the the painful times where in email marketing, you you spend six months and you don't
00:18:24
make money. In jiu-jitsu, you spend six months and you don't beat anyone. You have to say to yourself, right, I'm
00:18:30
happy to endure this because I know come the other side, I can reap the rewards. M and it's very difficult in this day and
00:18:37
age to say to someone let's do we're going to get you to do something where you physically are going to be powerless for 6 months.
00:18:43
It doesn't sell well that narrative but then when you get when you get through it similar to people I I love
00:18:48
the email marketing analogy now so many people in the new rich can send an email and that's their day's work done because
00:18:53
they persevered they built the relationship. They managed to cultivate an audience who are ready for it. Same with jiu-jitsu. if people just commit to
00:19:00
it and like you say when people talk about it you're like this isn't a coincidence it I drink less I party less
00:19:08
I you know have now ambitions of teaching my future kids I have ambitions of teaching white belts when I go back
00:19:14
to Sydney I'll say to my gym hey that no one wants the fundamentals class I'll have them I'll have them same with PT
00:19:20
world I never wanted to train athletes I like just the first time Sharon who is a
00:19:26
housewife and she has to make sure the kids are at school on time teach her deadlift. I was like, that's what brings me pleasure. And I think that I'll
00:19:32
really enjoy teaching the white belts. And for so many people, they have so much that they are kind of
00:19:38
working for in life, but nothing that's such a slow gradual progression like a martial art in the middle. You've
00:19:45
highlighted there one of the things that evidently made you successful was that commitment to consistency. And like I
00:19:51
mean, you would you would have seen it in your social channels because every successful person I've seen and I speak to says the same thing. first couple of
00:19:57
years [ __ ] all then I mean that's the laws of compounding it goes slow then it goes really fast you would have seen
00:20:03
that so that's clearly one of the things but what else made you and because there's a lot of people on Instagram giving advice and there's a lot of
00:20:09
fitness people and whatever else why you of all of them it's interesting where I think that
00:20:15
having a conversation with me now you'd probably assume or you would come to the conclusion I'm different to my socials
00:20:21
I've always seen social media as a crowded room where you know a podcast is where we're sat
00:20:26
together driving somewhere of 3 hours. Let's talk. Let's relax. Let the conversation wander. But on Instagram,
00:20:32
on Tik Tok, whatever, I have 10 seconds to capture your attention. And I love the idea of polarizing people. I said in
00:20:40
my first book that imagine you invite me to a barbecue in Shaw Ditch and someone
00:20:45
talks about Formula 1. I go, I [ __ ] hate Formula 1. Someone goes, what? I go, look, I just doesn't interest me.
00:20:51
And someone's like, you bought him the first time and he's [ __ ] on Formula 1. 10 people at the barbecue, three of
00:20:56
them be like, "Do you know what? I also agree with you. I think it's shit." And they'll remember me for saying something
00:21:01
controversial rather than, "Oh, yeah. It's good, isn't it?" "Oh, Louis Hamilton." Yeah. So, you know, so many
00:21:07
people want to get in line with an opinion that they're no longer remembered. So, I took it upon myself
00:21:13
and it was almost by accident. I do my lives every day. I do videos. Then something would piss me off and I'm not
00:21:18
a violent person, so I just channel it into a video and it would get a lot more likes and shares and I was like, "Hold on. what's going on here?
00:21:25
So again, I would post 10 videos and it would be the one where I was a bit more aggressive. And over time, I learned that there were
00:21:33
certain things people wanted in a certain way. And it wasn't the six-packs, the chicken and broccoli, the
00:21:39
food prep. It was being passionate without compromise about different topics. And I do swear as a person, I am
00:21:47
crass. I am vulgar. And I do make very inappropriate analogies for things. I put that out Like I said, I only ever
00:21:54
wanted 10 clients. I only ever wanted 10 clients. So, if half the people that see a video hate me for it, that's fine
00:22:01
because as long as the other half is 10 people that would do business with me, again, I'm invincible. And I've always
00:22:06
had that mentality that I only need 10 people like me to make a living. And if I do those 30 hours at £150 an hour, 6 hours between 6:00 a.m. and 2 p.m., I
00:22:17
can live a dream life and be wealthy. Even though it's barely breaking 100 to 200K a year, as long as I can buy dinner
00:22:24
for my friends and family, I can be wealthy with 10 people. And people completely misconrue social media for
00:22:30
that. They go, I need everyone to like me. I need a million people to like me. You know, I first flew first class with 28,000 followers, and you don't need that many people to like you to do well.
00:22:42
And I wish I wish people could understand that because social media has become a popularity contest. It's not
00:22:48
this is not a popularity contest. This is a means of you getting people over the line to like you enough to do business with you. It's so true. I I I did a lot of talking
00:22:59
on stage where I was looking at people like Pierce Morgan and Kanye West and Katy Hopkins and what what you've described there is what I've always said which is you don't have to like these
00:23:10
people but the conversation orbits around them. Now your barbecue analogy there by you saying oh the formula
00:23:15
Formula 1 is [ __ ] Everyone then comes over to you and the conversation is centers around James' opinion and that
00:23:22
brings attention to you. So, I said to my friends last night, cuz I did a tweet and it's got 20,000 likes and it's like going [ __ ] crazy and everyone's
00:23:28
talking about it. I said, "Listen, you're not going to be able to build a personal brand in 2022. If you're not I said this my friends last night in our
00:23:34
WhatsApp group, if you're not prepared for someone to call you a cun, if you're not if you're not willing to accept someone calling you a cun, it's going to be incredibly hard to get um the
00:23:46
attention you need for the algorithms to turn in your favor. And that means in your case and as I've seen from many
00:23:51
just being yourself, but there's a cost. There is. But you can be selective with this as well. So, uh, if I have an
00:23:59
argument against the keto diet, yeah, I don't advocate the keto diet. So, if a load of people that are zealots in the
00:24:05
realm of the ketogenic diets hate me, that's fine. I'm starting fire on someone else's property. Then, you know,
00:24:12
I I support vegan from an ethical standpoint, but I don't like the self-righteous uh you know,
00:24:18
sanctimonious element of veganism. It's been hijacked a bit like um I've often said like
00:24:23
feminism, what a fantastic cause, hijacked by a few to give it a bad sometimes bad rap. Veganism is the same.
00:24:30
But then I can have a little bit of a a cheap shot and joke, you know, satire content with a vegan and suddenly, oh,
00:24:37
the vegan's repping I'm sharing this. This is unacceptable. again, I've started fire on someone else's property and the people you've cultivated to like
00:24:43
you go, "Oh, that's actually really funny." Or, you know, so you can be very selective with who you pick arguments
00:24:49
with. I did one about bodybuilding where I said, "Hey, if you want to, you know,
00:24:55
diet down for 6 months to show off your insecurities versus someone else's, cover yourself in fake tan and call it a
00:25:00
sport, you do you, right?" The bodybuilder community went mental and everyone was like, "Is this guy stupid?
00:25:06
He's a personal trainer." I don't coach bodybuilders. Yet, thousands of them shared my post. My following went up.
00:25:13
And little did they realize it was their followers that may be invested in them, but don't agree with their values.
00:25:19
They went, "Hold on, I'm supposed to hate this guy, but I agree with him." And now their eyes are on me, not
00:25:25
someone else. Being selectively hated is brilliant. And now I even look to the comment
00:25:32
section for new content. Someone goes, "James, well, when you going to start training chess?" I'm like, "Hey man,
00:25:37
when are you going to start, you know, stop going on people's profiles you don't follow to make content?" You know,
00:25:42
there are so many like arguments now that I can see from the negative comments that I can then turn into
00:25:47
content. M so again it's one of those things where people need to appreciate there is a
00:25:54
power in being disliked and if I turn up to you know an event that's supposed to
00:26:00
be fully booked and it's not got bums in every seat I might go a I might need to
00:26:06
you know rein it in and really reconsider what I do for a living but as long as the talks I do have people in
00:26:11
them as long as I'm still getting support for what I'm doing I feel like I must be tiptoeing the line enough like I say it's It's passion without
00:26:18
compromise. I'm g say what I feel and I don't care. I think it was Senica. If you don't wish to be criticized, do
00:26:24
nothing. Say nothing. Be nothing. And you know, that's how I feel. And are you being yourself or are you
00:26:31
playing a character? It's always caffeinated James. You know me when I've had three coffees. That's
00:26:38
who people get. Behind the scenes. I'm a bit more relaxed. I'm quite happy to disagree with people because there isn't a an interest in it for me. Someone walks past me on the street saying, "I
00:26:48
love Formula 1," I'm like, "Hey, mate, come back in." Yeah, you're fat. And I hate For yeah, yeah. And um and the same again where, you know, I'm I'm not
00:26:56
argumentative away from social media. If I see people, you know, chatting hate about me, I don't get involved in it.
00:27:02
I'm not really that that person. Um what about Joe Wix? What about that beef? Do
00:27:07
you know what stirred stirred the pot there a little bit? You said some comments to him about um he said there's some dishonesty there
00:27:15
um regarding what he does. So, this is something where I haven't gone back on my word, but about six months ago, I took the podcast I did about him offline. Not I just I felt like I've been a bit harsh. You know, at the time,
00:27:28
I've got 10,000 followers. I've had my first taste of growth on social media and like beef and rappers. You need an
00:27:34
arch enemy. You know, you need someone to be able to go out so you can kind of go back and forth. I actually emailed
00:27:40
Joe about four years ago, five years, seven years ago. And um I emailed him and I I found out that he'd seen one of my videos and I thought, "Oh [ __ ] I never expect him to see it ever." I was
00:27:54
posting content. I was, "Oh my god, I might have hurt someone's feelings." So I emailed him. I said, "Hey, Joe, just to let you know, one, I will be coming
00:28:01
for you a bit, but two, you never get put down by people above you." That's all I said. And he emailed me back ages
00:28:08
ago. And I continued the endeavor. And there were still things. What did he say? Do you know what? Coming back, I I think
00:28:14
he said something on the lines of he hadn't had an email like that before. It didn't stop me, though. So, there were a few things that frustrated me. One, I
00:28:24
don't like people blanket prescribing solutions to people. I don't. And there's I don't like anyone that
00:28:30
presents a solution without education. You know, the teach a man to fish analogy. So, I had clients that were
00:28:37
paying me but also bought his plan. So, straight away there was a bit of a conflict. And I remember looking through the supplement stack and I was like
00:28:44
branching amino acids lucine. I was like well I don't know why you're popping these lucine pills for my protein. They're massive like a pelican trying to
00:28:51
swallow each one. I was like unless you're vegetarian or vegan you don't really need this then the branch chain amino acids and I was like you don't
00:28:57
really need to be consuming another six pills with this. And then I was like from an ethical standpoint I don't these
00:29:02
people are very overs supplemented for jumping around the front room. Then there was the oneizefits-all plan. One
00:29:08
of my clients was a type 1 diabetic who got sent it and I was like don't eat that. No, this is not, you know,
00:29:13
specialized for you. And the amount of volume that was being given to people is it's very easy to make people tired.
00:29:19
This is what frustrates me as a trainer. I actually want to stimulate people in the gym, get them moving. And if there
00:29:25
was ever a boundary of the maximum they can do, I want to come under that every day. A lot of people are stressed, underslept, undernourished, smashing
00:29:32
people in their front room every day, I don't think, is the solution out of this. So I picked some holes in the
00:29:37
programming, picked some holes in uh you know the supplement issue there. But the main problem is this.
00:29:44
People would have gone there, seen him on TV, GMTV, seen the book sales and gone, this is my savior. And when they
00:29:51
fail the plan or don't finish it, which I think a lot of people do, I think I'm not saying that objectively, they blame
00:29:57
themselves. And this is what kills me. So many people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people would have done a
00:30:03
one-sizefits-all plan, all doing the same exercise regime. I could not sustain HIT training at 32 every day in
00:30:08
my front room. It would break me. When they do eventually fall off that and the meal plan, cooking everything
00:30:15
from scratch, which again, I mean, we're sitting next to he that's a market that's come off the back of people not wanting to cook from scratch. When they
00:30:22
fail that plan, they're going to blame themselves. And the voices in their head are going to say, "I didn't want it enough. I'm not motivated. I'm not
00:30:28
committed. I'm not cut out for this. And you can hear in my voice now. This is something I'm passionate about. It
00:30:34
breaks me to think of the tens of thousands of people who gave up on their ambitions because they went the wrong
00:30:39
way for advice. If people love it and they love cooking from scratch, this guy's probably the guy for you. Join his
00:30:44
plan, not mine. But it almost felt like physics. So many people went to something. It created gravity that other people went. And it's my
00:30:55
feeling that that let a lot of people down. And if it didn't, I wouldn't have experienced so much growth from pointing
00:31:01
out the inadequacies. If people were truly happy, I would have been shut the hell up then and I would have just gone
00:31:06
away and not existed on social media. So what's your plan? How is it different? Imagine uh we have you the consumer.
00:31:14
Hello selling. I'm selling you the consumer. The principle fat loss is a calorie deficit. Fact that we need to
00:31:20
create an energy deficit. Um just for anybody that doesn't understand that means burning more calories than you
00:31:25
consume. And it's it doesn't make it a simple science but you know let's just say to people like money in the bank
00:31:31
analogy if you earn too much than you spend you're going to recruit money in the bank. That is what fat is. It's not from toxins. It's not from you know
00:31:37
whatever you're led to believe. Now everything in between those two how it works in the person is a method. You
00:31:43
know keto 52 intermittent fasting all of these are methods that dress up the principle for the consumer. It's almost
00:31:49
packaging something for the person. With me, rather than giving them the method first, I put them straight in bed with
00:31:55
the principle and I say, "Look, this is how many calories I think you burn on a daily basis. I think you should try
00:32:01
eating 15% less than that. Here's a protein target. Go away. If it works, we've hit it. If it doesn't, we're still
00:32:06
too high. If you gain weight, you know, we we've really missed the mark here." This is how it works. Really educate
00:32:13
people to all the things they need to go like a driving instructor. I should not exist in your life in six months apart
00:32:19
from the guy that taught you to drive. Why is it so acceptable for people to invest money into fitness professionals
00:32:25
and then still be there three years later? The PT model is almost flawed in some respects. If you do your job well
00:32:31
enough, your client leaves. So for me, even one of my clients that I had face to face for years, I was on gym for four years. I said, 'Look, you're going to pay me more than the rate that you pay
00:32:42
anyone else, but in three months time, if you can't do this on your own, I'll give you your money back because I should be People arrive at fitness like
00:32:49
getting in the car for the first time. They're like, "What the hell is this third pedal?" That's a clutch. A clutch, Dad. What the hell is a clutch? I
00:32:54
remember learning to drive. I thought there was go and stop. And rather than just getting in the car and driving, I
00:33:00
need to explain to him, "We need this to change gears. The indicator must be done before we start to break. This is your mirrors." And the fitness world doesn't
00:33:07
have that anymore. There needs to be some ruthlessness with this where I say to people, look, this is the education
00:33:12
you need. You need to learn how to do this for yourself. It's one of those things where I have a big problem with people monetizing and not giving that
00:33:20
solution. You know, I think it's so important that we teach people these fundamentally so they understand. And
00:33:26
I'm not an extremist. You look at me now. You know, just before downstairs, we were talking before the podcast about
00:33:33
have you been on the front cover of mental health? I was like, no, no, I don't agree with that. I don't think these are physiques that are obtainable
00:33:39
to most men in our country. I think, you know, that's like saying, "Hey, you can't be happy to earn quarter of a million pound." Yes, that's great, but
00:33:47
most men won't get there. So, how about we set the goal something more realistic at Middleton, another one of your guests, friend of mine, he got
00:33:54
criticized for not being lean enough for the men's health cover, we got a guy climbed Mount Everest, you know, like,
00:33:59
"Oh, sorry, mate. You're not lean enough. You haven't shaved your chest recently enough." So it's one of those things where I think there's a lot of a
00:34:07
lot of work to be done with not only teaching people how things work but also in setting the the finish line. So from
00:34:13
entrepreneurship you the new rich I think is great because we have such subjectivity between how much money your
00:34:19
business can make. But once you get the freedom to work remote and live your life well done you've done it. And I think that if someone especially men can
00:34:26
get to the point where they're happy to go for a jog topless you've done it. They don't have to be abs there. If you
00:34:31
can go for a jog topless or you can, you know, wear a pair of speedos on holiday, well done, mate. You've done it. And I
00:34:37
think we need to have that approach with fitness. I've had so many people tag me on
00:34:42
Instagram, even on Telegram and in my Twitter DMs in a picture of them starting their heel journey. And it's
00:34:48
one of the most amazing things in my life that I get to do a podcast, which of course needs money to to to fuel. And
00:34:54
I have a sponsor like Hule who I genuinely believe is going to help every single person who starts their heel
00:35:01
journey change their life because this podcast the central intention of this podcast is to help people live better
00:35:06
lives. And we get to sit here and I get to promote to you a product which has not only helped me change my life but is
00:35:12
going to help millions of people and is helping millions of people live a nutritionally complete life. It's so
00:35:18
it's such an incredible product and for me the reason why it's incredible is because it gives me my protein. It gives me my vitamins, minerals. It's
00:35:24
plant-based. It's low in sugar, gluten-free. It does all of that in a small drink that tastes good. There are
00:35:30
other products, there's foods, there's the hot and savory collection, many other things. But for me, this ready to drink is the absolute savior of my diet
00:35:38
throughout the week where I'm moving at such pace. Look, I don't want to labor the point, but if you haven't tried,
00:35:44
give it a try. And if you do, tag me, Instagram, wherever you try it, give me a tag. Anyway, back to the podcast.
00:35:51
you're in the business of helping people change their lives. Hopefully, that's I guess that's I'm guessing that's part of
00:35:57
the goal is to help them become a better version of themselves. And a lot of people listening to this will have a
00:36:02
friend or they'll have a I don't know a family member or someone that they they want to help change their life. What
00:36:08
have you learned about those that actually do take the steps, commit change their lives, and those that just
00:36:15
kind of say it? And how do you do you are you able to identify them super early and say this person's got no chance? Is there like a warning sign
00:36:21
where you go there's this person is just all talk and do you give up at some point on people? Uh face to face I had to because there
00:36:28
was a finite amount of energy in which I could give people and I had to sack clients and I was sorry someone could
00:36:34
take your slot pay me the same amount of money but I can make progress with them and sometimes they come back a different
00:36:39
person. The main thing I learned, I wrote the first book, not a diet book. And then I realized there was a
00:36:45
precursor. And my theory is that, you know, in my videos, in my content, I say fat people, I say obese, and I use the cu n t word openly. But I don't think
00:36:57
people are gluttonous and greedy. I think that, yeah, from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that if we're surrounded by copious amounts of adonic
00:37:04
food that we should be consuming it, because we have done for hundreds of thousands of years. But people don't want to be this way. So I came to
00:37:11
realize that so many people before we look at calorie deficit, we need to look at other pressing issues. Do you like
00:37:16
your work life? Do you like your relationships? Because if you come home from a work you're not passionate about,
00:37:21
from a job you're not passionate about, and you walk straight in through the door to a relationship you're not passionate about, me telling you to eat
00:37:28
less means doing less of the only thing you might enjoy every day. So there's a big life constructionist issue that
00:37:34
comes up. And actually, I find as a PT, I was asking this. I was like, "You always you're always moaning about your
00:37:40
boyfriend. Why why don't you break up? Oh, we've been together 5 years." And since now I now know that's the sunk
00:37:45
cost fallacy where they're making a a decision based off the previous investment, not the actual reason if
00:37:51
they want to be in a relationship. So with the second book, I was like, well, before we even get into this commitment, wanting it, do I give up on this person?
00:37:57
I'm like, right, we've got Steve, repetitive yo-yo dieter, sticks to the deficit three weeks, then he falls off.
00:38:04
I go, Steve, mate, do you like your job? you know, do you like it? No. Well, I've been there eight years. Do you like your relationship, Steve? Oh, no. You know,
00:38:10
my mister in my head. And all the other way around. Sabrina's like, "My boyfriend's a wanker." Whatever it is. And I've come to realize that if we can
00:38:18
help change those things and those people's lives, suddenly everything else seems a lot lot easier. There's a lot
00:38:24
less boundaries, a lot less effort. So, in a cheesy way, we almost need to address the foundations that people are building on because if you haven't got this and and again, imagine you're in a
00:38:36
job you hate on 50k and you take a pay cut and start a venture with your best mate for 30k, you're going to have less
00:38:42
pleasure in your life, less expensive trainers, less private jets, whatever. But suddenly you have a job you enjoy.
00:38:48
And if you're getting enough satisfaction between 7 when you wake up and four when you come home, you might need to get it from food. and then they
00:38:55
drop a bit of weight and then they start feeling better and then they go, "Oh, do you know what I could do with a bit of muscle on this arm?" So then they start
00:39:00
going to the gym and then they make friends there. And so this whole conversation surrounding, you know,
00:39:05
motivation, I don't think it's a positive charge motivation. I think that too many people are carrying a negatively charged career
00:39:13
and a negatively charged relationship status. So, you view like a poor relationship with your diet or food
00:39:20
as more of a symptom of negativity or lack of fulfillment or lack of lack of satisfaction in other areas of your life. Cuz I've actually been there when I worked in uh so I
00:39:30
worked in sales and I hate phone calls. So, it was the wrong job for me. I don't even now when people call me I'm like,
00:39:36
"What do you want?" They're like, "What do you mean? Are you you're right? I'm fine until you called me." So, um and I
00:39:41
used to get to work and I used to have peanut sandwiches, two slices of toast. I wasn't even hungry. Peanut butter on
00:39:46
one, Nutella on the other. Put them together. I'm having a 500 calorie just a bit of toast just to kill time from my
00:39:52
mundane existence at my office. Again, there there are so many people doing this. And in my time in corporate, I
00:39:57
realized people are doing the absolute bare minimum to get by. And I always say to people, the second you join a big
00:40:04
corporate business, they're going to pay you the least amount of money for the most amount of your life. And if you
00:40:09
don't construct how you want your life to look, they're going to do it. And a lot of people don't like how that
00:40:15
construction looks like and then they wonder why they're feeling malas or you know depressed or disheartened. And it's
00:40:21
because you let someone else build your life for you. And it's very important for people to unattach from that. And then
00:40:28
if they can and this is another thing where I'm sure you you'll be able to relate to this. Some of the best things
00:40:35
that have ever happened in my life have come off the back of opportunities not going my way and my back's been against
00:40:40
the wall. Oh yeah. Um, I'll probably get shot saying this, doing an event uh later on
00:40:45
this year at Sydney Opera House, which is mad, massive, which um, for me is an incredible, incredible feat
00:40:53
because four years ago, I remember being so skinn in Sydney living in a hostel that I went to Opera Bar to apply for a job behind the bar and they said, "You have to have a qualification serve
00:41:04
alcohol." I was like, "I'm not doing this." I remember reading uh Tim Ferrris's Tools of the Titans on the ferry back to where I lived and it goes,
00:41:10
"If someone put a gun to your head, would you work harder?" I was like, "Oh [ __ ] yeah, I would. I would call up all
00:41:16
my existing clients, I'd get referrals, then I call those referrals and I close them for sales. I give them money back guarantees. I would quite literally just
00:41:23
do a lot more." And then I came to realize, "Okay, I'm going to go home and do that." And within 5 months, I joined
00:41:30
Fitness First and then bought my way out of it. And it's crazy that people are so afraid of being in this position where
00:41:36
they leave a career they're unfulfilled with that they're going to be stuck and lost. But anything when your back's against the wall, you find another
00:41:42
version of yourself that works harder and does more and puts itself into uncomfortable situations. And my
00:41:48
favorite thing to say to someone is like, how many times have you let yourself down really in your life? How
00:41:54
many times have you really woken up and gone, "Oh, I've really let myself down." And even if you have, you got out of it.
00:42:01
And most people they haven't. I go, why the hell do you think you're going to let yourself down? Now, where's that come from? Where's that [ __ ]
00:42:07
assumption come from? Probably the people you hang around with. Probably the the naysayers in your life that may
00:42:13
be saying it because they want to protect you. And so many people in that kind of world of just not fulfillment.
00:42:22
And I always say again, please do not mistake passion with being good at something.
00:42:29
Because if I get you to do anything for three years, you're going to be good at it. Don't call that passion. You do
00:42:34
recruitment for three years and you can close people, oh yeah, straight here, footy 100, I'll get them top four, whatever. Doesn't mean you're passionate
00:42:40
about it. It means you're good at it. And people really need to distinguish that. There's going to be a ton of people
00:42:45
listening to this now that are in that situation. They're in a they're on their way to a job this morning, you know, that they don't particularly like and
00:42:52
but they're going to say, "Well, James, I've got a mortgage to pay and I've got a couple of kids." You know, you'll get this a lot of time because I get it. I
00:42:58
get it every day. got a couple of kids and it's easy for you guys to say because you, you know, you're single and you got all this money now, but I can't
00:43:04
just leave this call center. James, I've got Timmy that needs to go to school and I need to get, you know, buy his books
00:43:11
for his book bag. And what do you say to those people that are feeling like they've they've kind of built a wall too
00:43:16
big to climb over? It's a very difficult one. And again, I can never say or just do this because
00:43:22
when I'm talking now, I'm talking to James of 22. similarly to how you would talk to yourself at 18. I can't talk to every age group listening to this podcast. So, I'll try to talk to the one I know best.
00:43:33
Yeah. But there's two kind of ways out. There's one where some people do need to
00:43:39
make a risk because they may see no options now, but where are they going to be in 5 years? A lot of the time things
00:43:46
get worse with time, not better in these situations. Unfulfillment, passionless existence, all of these things get
00:43:52
worse. If your relationship is on the rocks, you don't just give it four years. Something needs to be done.
00:43:57
Sometimes you do need to rip the cord. But to people who are genuinely past it, because people did read my second book
00:44:02
and go, I just can't do this. I said to them, well, okay, make sure your kids know this. Make sure if there's one valiant thing you do is fall on the sword and say, right, for me, I will sit
00:44:15
out the next 10 years. But those kids, every time I talk to them, every day they're at the dinner table, every step
00:44:21
they make in life, instill that into them. My dad said to me, like my whole life, he's just always said, "You're a
00:44:26
long time dead." He always just drilled it into me my whole life. Every time I've wanted to do something, it's like going to be a long time dead, son. And
00:44:34
there's no It helps me understand there is no time to to dwell, to wait, to see things out. And I think that again,
00:44:41
that's one of the things that people don't think about enough. You know, we're all slowly dying. It's such a
00:44:47
weird thing to think about. People go, I just give it a few more years. You don't have that. Time isn't on our side. Our
00:44:53
existence as a human being is if the universe could talk, it would laugh at the amount of time we have to live. And
00:45:00
some people, again, what's the worst that could truly happen? You got a mortgage call. Have you got enough to
00:45:07
survive two months? Two months. And if you can't give everything to something for two months,
00:45:12
maybe don't do it at all. PE personal trainers as well. They they say this all the time at my business talks. Oh, you
00:45:18
know, they're doing minimum wage hours, six, seven pounds an hour, wiping down machines between trying to run a
00:45:23
legitimate business and they're afraid to go alone. I go, if I gave you £7 for that hour and put you on a gym floor and
00:45:30
gun to the head mentality, you need to make a business or you're going to wipe down machines for your whole life. Of course, they're going to do it. The the
00:45:37
intensity, the audacity, everything they could give to people is going to be incredible. I think it's baffling that
00:45:43
people write themselves off before they even make the decision. And in some respects, them going, "I've got kids.
00:45:49
I've got a mortgage." I appreciate all of those things, but is this a [ __ ] hurdle you're putting in front of making
00:45:56
change in your life? I could be wrong. I don't know, but it could be. They need to ask themselves that. I
00:46:02
can't ask them that. One of the things you said that was really interesting, you said, "I don't
00:46:07
feel deserving of my success." And I've I've heard you talk a little bit about imposter syndrome. Do you suffer with
00:46:13
imposter syndrome? I kind of back out of it very quickly every time I I feel the emotion.
00:46:19
Everything to me is just weird. It's just weird. People in selfie, I'm like, "Yeah." I'm like, "This is a weird part of my day. Let's embrace it. This is
00:46:25
something that up until 27, no one ever stopped me for a photo or acknowledge my work." 32 now, give or take 15% of my
00:46:32
life. So for 85% of my life, that never happened. So everything to me it's just,
00:46:38
you know, I I joke around at the speaking events. I go, "Hey, I'm going to get found out soon. Until then, I'm going to milk this for everything I
00:46:44
can." I do I do feel it a lot. It's a strange one, especially at home. Like, uh, I go out my mom and dad, someone will say, "Oh, James, can I get a picture?" I now chaper owner my dad when
00:46:55
he goes into London. We went to Twickingham a few weeks ago, and I don't particularly like going to watch sporting events anymore. It's cold, you
00:47:02
know, the trains are so crammed, all of this. But if my dad's going, "I'll come with you. I'll make sure no one barges
00:47:07
into you." Especially when people are exting like, "Fuck off." And um purple belt. Yeah. Yeah. Watch out, mate. And um even
00:47:15
I see it on my dad's face. He's like he's like, "But he he doesn't my parents don't have social media. They don't they
00:47:21
don't exist in that world, but I can tell they're kind of proud of it." And I was like, "Do you know what? If my parents are proud of this weirdness,
00:47:28
I'll embrace it." And I'll happy to embrace it. But yeah, it's just incredibly strange. It's again why I
00:47:34
need someone else to negotiate all rates and what I get paid and speaking appearances because whenever even
00:47:41
getting the invite for this podcast I was like [ __ ] you hell. I was like I hope I can keep up the conversation for an hour. I have the
00:47:47
biggest fear whenever I have guests on my podcast. I'm like what if I run out of things to ask after half an hour? Where does that come from? That sort of
00:47:54
like that almost self-doubt and insec almost insecurity. I think that a lot of my confidence, not not all of it, but a
00:48:03
big chunk of it is a facade, an essential facade. I need to play the character. Confidence to me isn't about
00:48:10
who you are. It's about who you need to be. It's about how how I need to talk in this interview, how I need to present
00:48:15
myself, the things I need to get passionate about. In some respects, when that fades,
00:48:22
you know, I'm just a PT on a gym floor in Bratal. I worked on a, you know, a trading estate for three, four years. And the craziest thing is I was happy. I
00:48:29
was happy then. I wouldn't you come meet me four or five years ago. Hey James, mate, how's your life? I wouldn't blow,
00:48:34
you know, [ __ ] hell. I could do with a bit more money, you know, I could do with, you know, an expensive watch. It was never like that. I used to ridicule
00:48:40
my clients for flying business and buying Rolexes. I was like, what a waste of money. Now to my other friends, I'm
00:48:46
like, you should really try business. And um yeah, I've definitely had a complete flip on that. I don't know where it comes from to be but to be be honest it's probably a I spent a lot of time with my family and my friends I
00:48:58
don't really have any mega successful influencer friends everyone's pretty grounded and we all think that we're getting away with murder charging money for things so I think it probably comes
00:49:09
from that but from what you said as well you spent the first at least 15 years of your life being indirectly told that you
00:49:17
shouldn't aim so high and not much is going to happen in your life right it was when I first became a PT this changed where I remember listening to
00:49:24
podcasts, reading books, studying topics, and one day it clicked. I was like, I'm never going to be in the best
00:49:30
shape, never going to be the most muscular, never going to be the most experienced. And I was like, I could be
00:49:36
a good communicator because these podcasts I'm listening to are dull as [ __ ] I listen to a 56-inute podcast on
00:49:43
caffeine. I managed to turn it into an academy module that was two and a half minutes, right? That's all they needed. And I thought,
00:49:49
there's a gap in the market here. And it becomes a snowballing effect where maybe even the same with yourself where at the
00:49:55
beginning you're like I understand the operational part of a business. I understand investorship then when you
00:50:00
see the returns on your efforts you're like oh I'm actually quite good at this and you get all these confirmations that
00:50:05
occur along the way. And I think it's more that if I'm honest I still struggle to communicate with myself that I'm an authority on things. I actually need external validation still quite a lot
00:50:17
which I've never really told anyone before. We've spoken about quite a few things today that I've never really spoken about.
00:50:22
And even there are always little battles that can be won and lost. And some days
00:50:28
I'm like I do lose belief in who I need to be. And do you know what? Actually, content
00:50:34
creation for me really helps me with that. Because whenever I'm having a day where I'm like, [ __ ] do I really know
00:50:40
what I'm talking about? I will just express something I feel wholeheartly about and see how it goes. And when it
00:50:45
[ __ ] blows up, I go, oh, maybe I do know what I'm on about. Carry on. That's a dangerous game to play because on the other end, if you're if external
00:50:52
validation is moving you up, it's like impossible for it not to move you the other way. So if someone DMs you and goes, you are you are you don't know
00:50:58
what the [ __ ] you're talking about. Vegans are you know this and keto a keto vegan is the best way to be surely that moves you too. No, it does. And sometimes if I if I do get
00:51:09
a really, you know, harsh criticism, I don't take it from an emotional level. I take it from an objective level. I I
00:51:15
actually do this a lot. If someone criticized me on something, I go before I think he's a [ __ ] he could be right. So, I give him the benefit of the
00:51:21
doubt and I'll go to someone smarter than me. I'm like, just to double check, I'm right on this topic. And I think
00:51:27
that's a good way to protect myself from it. Every time someone says, you're wrong on this subject. I don't go, "Hey,
00:51:33
[ __ ] you. I got more followers than you." I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] I best go away and research this." And I actually use the little troll attack sometimes to
00:51:40
reconfirm my position on something. If someone goes, you know, you swear too much in your content, I'll like I I'll
00:51:46
reflect on it. Am I swearing too much? Is this how I got here? Dangerous game to play that. Like it is.
00:51:52
We all play it. I'm not I'm not pretending. I'm just playing devil's advocate to ask good questions here. But that
00:51:57
Yeah. If you if you're relying on other people to validate you, then their words can also invalidate you theoretically.
00:52:05
So do you struggle with that being then? Then I would just remove myself from the situation on the social media
00:52:11
side of things and I'd be like, "Okay, I'd sit with my thoughts." And again, do you know what? I remember you saying this word just before we went live.
00:52:17
Psychedelics really helped me with this, but psychedelics also got in my head a couple times. For people that don't know too much about psychedelics, I've always
00:52:28
said to people, it's like therapy with yourself. You're not always the the guy that holds all the answers, but you're
00:52:35
at least the person that has the questions. I remember did a magic mushroom trip and one of the questions I
00:52:41
was poised with was, "Do people like you for who you are or what you do?" I was like, "Oh, I'm going to need a few
00:52:47
weeks." [ __ ] hell. I'm going need a bit of time for this because I was like, "How many of my followers actually know who I am?"
00:52:53
That's my first defense when someone criticized me. I'm like, "You don't know me." I'm like, "Oh, if they don't know me, what do they like me for?" It's
00:52:59
like, "Fuck." I'm still figuring it out. M. So I think that there's definitely a lot
00:53:05
of conversations and internal dialogues in which that I'm still breaking down. And that's another thing that people
00:53:11
can't understand about psychedelics. Some of the things you're poised with in question with can take months, sometimes
00:53:17
years to unravel. It's one of the things with building an identity, isn't it? You then it's easy
00:53:22
to to start to believe you you are your identity. And that's not always a helpful thing because it can take you
00:53:28
further and further away from who you actually are. And I think all the the mental health research is clear that when we abandon ourselves because we've
00:53:34
built up a persona, then it can be very costly for the person we truly are. And and I actually think that continual
00:53:41
faking from what I've learned from my guests is is really really harmful. So it must be somewhat difficult, right?
00:53:47
Like creating the separation because you're not the guy that I've met today is not the guy that I've seen on Instagram telling me that I'm a fat
00:53:53
prick. Like it's not these aren't the joking. These aren't the same individual. So, how do you kind of disassociate from that?
00:53:59
I think Jim Kerry said something about taking the mask off. He goes, "Depression is when you have to
00:54:04
take the mask off and say, I don't want to do this anymore." And for me, very fortunately, it's 3 minutes a day. I'm this person. So,
00:54:11
hours on TV, s in front of loads of people. But then sometimes what I do like is I purposely
00:54:19
I call it a cuntive. I do a post that catches all the constitive and I sometimes purposefully as hard as I can try and get people to unfollow me with I just say something brutally honest. I go
00:54:30
in as hard as I can with the objective of losing a few thousand followers because then I can kind of tighten the the the area the remit of people which I
00:54:37
talk to. And I remember in middle of summer I was like this is [ __ ] Just honestly I was like we're kind of out of
00:54:44
lockdown but we're not. Still got to do tests to go travel. We're pretending it's the new normal but it's not the new normal. And I I just expressed my
00:54:50
emotions without the facade and no one barely even noticed. And I was like that's that's good. That means there's not this big transient period between I
00:55:01
am just in it's not a different person. It's more enthusiasm which I think again
00:55:06
is a very important thing because like part I always say that my talks are between a TED talk and standup. I need to ensure that I can tiptoe the line of
00:55:18
retaining the audience, keeping them in, entertaining the audience at the same time. So there is a requirement. Jimmy
00:55:24
Carr, when you met him, you wouldn't, if you listen to that podcast, first half an hour, you wouldn't go, he's a funny [ __ ]
00:55:29
You'd go, "This is a very intelligent person." So I completely appreciate where he comes from as well. For me, I
00:55:35
don't think there's too much separation. I think you wouldn't sit with me now and go, "That's a completely different person."
00:55:41
You would go, "Okay, this isn't Instagram, James." Yeah, it's a caffeinated. Yeah. Um, you said the word
00:55:46
depression there. One of the things you wrote about in your book is anxiety as well and your own experience with anxiety. Tell me about that. That's
00:55:52
something that Well, you sleep with people and they can say anything. That's one that creeps up on
00:55:59
you over time where you can have I remember once waking up to a to a message saying, "Relax. This is fine.
00:56:06
It's all being dealt with." But one of your ex-girlfriends in a Facebook group community for moms has said, "Do you
00:56:13
think it's okay if I make up a story about my ex? I will take the money from the story and give it to my son." So, we
00:56:20
had that screenshotted. We had that locked down so if it did go to the press straight away, we can have it taken down. And I was like, "Wow, I thought we
00:56:27
were on good terms 10 years ago or whatever it was." And that then gets your mind working. You go, "What if I
00:56:34
rub someone the wrong way? What if someone changes their stance on you? What if you know I have a joking
00:56:39
altercation with someone in a bar which they then misconstrue? What if I genuinely want to, you know, be ignorant on a subject and someone construdes that as a facicious attempt to insult
00:56:51
someone? So there's a lot of anxiety that I carry because not everyone watching is watching you succeed. A lot
00:56:58
of people watching you want to see you fall and they're waiting at that very opportunity and that is quite tough
00:57:03
because there are going to be a lot of people that are out to just not see me be
00:57:08
happy. So that's where the anxiety stems from a lot of the time. You have the general life anxiety like oh hope hope I don't
00:57:15
get cancer this year. You know one of those things. I've had friends that never made it to 30. Some of my rugby teammates uh that you know find a lump
00:57:23
in the testicle on a Friday's off by Sunday dead within 10 months. And I think about that a lot. So I think it's
00:57:30
important to have that anxiety as well. I'm not guaranteed to live to 60. You know, I'm not guaranteed to see my book
00:57:36
release. So for the publishers sake that I get finished, but so there's there are anxieties, but I
00:57:41
work proactively to override them. You know, uh Mark Twain, I've had many worries in my life, most of which never happened. So I I think that I've got the wisdom
00:57:54
especially of Stoics to these anxious traits are not new. They've existed for a lot longer than we could imagine. So you do carry that around. I get drunk.
00:58:06
You know, oh did I put something on the story? You know, I know that drunk James can say things, but I know he'd never do
00:58:11
things. He's not inappropriate. He's not a groper. He's not disrespectful to women or any of those things. So I'm fine with that. But then I do carry this
00:58:19
small amount of anxiety because the higher you climb, the further you fall. And when you feel like your life is a
00:58:25
fairy tale, you hope it has the fairy tale ending and you're like, I hope I'm not the one that, you know, this is going too well. Like you're at a gambling table, you keep winning on red,
00:58:36
eventually I'm going to lose everything. I think about that a lot. So I think that's what keeps me straight. How do you defend yourself from being
00:58:42
canceled? What's your sort of philosophy uh for that? For me, my my thing, and Aunt Middleton, I think, reaffirmed this for me, Jordan Peterson reaffirmed this for me as well, is if I never can try to
00:58:54
convince anybody that I'm something I'm not. If I never try and convince them that I'm like a really good guy or that
00:59:00
I'm like morally perfect, they'll never be able to call out contradiction. And really, a lot of the time, people
00:59:05
getting cancelled is because they um tried to pull the wool over your eyes about their like moral compass. And it
00:59:11
explains why Jimmy Carr can sit here and go, I mean, this is slightly different because it's comedy, but Jimmy Car can sit there and go, "Oh, [ __ ] the over
00:59:18
70s, the Delta variant wiped them out." Or rappers can talk about all the misogynistic things they talk about, whatever. No one's going to leave any
00:59:24
hate on their videos or in the because they never gave us the expectation of other otherwise. It's usually the people
00:59:30
that quite often it's the people that are our prime ministers or our politicians or have inherited this moral
00:59:37
high ground that we go, "Oh, you had a Christmas party." It's I'm I stand with very controversial
00:59:43
opinions as well surrounding I'm very pro- drug legalization. I think that, you know, I've got family members in the
00:59:50
police force. I wish they were dealing with real real crime. Yeah. And I think that we could abolish a lot of drugrelated crimes by legalization. I
00:59:56
think we should tax and we should quality control. I don't think it's going to be a net positive for society, but I don't think exactly right now it
01:00:03
is any better. So, with standpoints like that and people go, James, have you done
01:00:08
cocaine? I go, yes. You know, have you done MDMA? Yeah, last weekend. You know, I'll always be honest with people and
01:00:13
that does give you a drop off of followers, but I I fil them out early so that they can
01:00:19
come in, they can go and that's not to be sexist or to talk about female genitalia. That is to use another
01:00:25
polarizing word. So, I'll be transparent with that. Similar to Danny Dier got caught and sees TV doing a line and was
01:00:31
like, "Oh, it's just Danny." You know, he never tried to. There is there is the the anti- you
01:00:37
know, cancelellable effect of that uh you know, even when single being very transparent with needs and wants through messages so that if someone was to look through, you know, a trail of it, you'd
01:00:48
be like, "Well, we've made it very clear that was the position he was in." So, I'm always trying to maintain an
01:00:53
anti-cancellable thing. I haven't got TV. I haven't got radio. I've actually probably had 12 minutes of TV time in
01:00:59
four or five years, I think, because a lot of TV networks don't want to get cancelled. So, um, if you were to pull
01:01:05
the plug on all my media tomorrow, I'd probably see a 1% drop off on on engagement. And, you know, I'm very
01:01:12
honest with all my clientele, the the people that really matter to me are book buyers, academy members, and talk
01:01:18
attendees. I don't believe that any of my actions would ever deter them from their interest in me,
01:01:25
which kind of makes me uncancellable, you know. Yeah. And I'm not too worried about that. I've been thinking a lot lately about like the there's a few types of imprisonment in life. There's
01:01:36
physical imprisonment. You can put me in jail. And the other type of imprisonment, which I think is probably even worse, is like the mental imprisonment, which is we're going to
01:01:43
decide what you can think and say, um, and who you are. And like I really don't want that. So how do I have to design my life to make sure that I never get mentally imprisoned. I never go to
01:01:54
mental jail. And one of them is building enough resources so that even if you turned off my revenue streams, the ones
01:02:00
you could turn off, I'm still good. The other is things like this, which is this is my own show. Don't sell it to Spotify
01:02:06
or someone else because then there is a guy that could pull the plug. And I really I've really started to think
01:02:11
about this idea of like designing an uncancellable life so that you could be mentally free in a world where we're all
01:02:17
[ __ ] virtue signaling and trying to fit in and be correct. You know, jail. I like that. I said that
01:02:23
in book three. Yeah. Well, it's a race. You can get it in a book first. I think um yeah, you're you're
01:02:28
incredibly correct. And I think that you know I don't have a huge amount in savings, but I think I could live three
01:02:34
years on that. You know, I went to I went to Asia for six months when I was younger. And in six months, I spent
01:02:39
three and a half thousand pounds. Yeah. Wasn't staying in the nicest places, but I spent time there. So sometimes I'm
01:02:45
like, "Hey, if the world goes to [ __ ] I got 10 years in Thailand. Let's go." I just train jiu-jitsu. Don't cost me
01:02:50
anything. Laundry, whatever. So I always do that. And I actually I wrote about this one in my books. I
01:02:55
remember I ate in a steak restaurant in Sydney once on the beach and the waiter that served us, really nice guy, young
01:03:02
guy. And uh I looked at him and I went, "Oh, I could have your life. You know, you probably serve steak in the
01:03:08
restaurant. Probably get good tips. You're in Sydney. You probably work 6:00 p.m. to 11 most nights, maybe 5, six
01:03:13
nights a week. I could surf during the day and get a dog and train jiu-jitsu. If I was to do that every day for the next 30 years, I would have a better life than 99% of people on the planet.
01:03:25
So with the cancelable thing, I almost think like if I was to get cancelled, oh, I won't have to use my phone as
01:03:31
much. You know, as long as I can get into a country that I that I genuinely love, I always say to myself, I'll open
01:03:37
a jiu-jitsu dojo in a small town in Australia. I've got door knocking experience. I used to door knockock for Empire. I used to have to knock on 100
01:03:44
doors to sell gas and electric to people that already had gas and electric. How much easier would it be to sell jiu-jitsu memberships? Hey, come down.
01:03:50
First week's free, whatever. I in the same way not only like to have the uncancable life, I like to have a a get
01:03:57
out plan that can sometimes be better than my current existence. So, it's one of those things where I was like um
01:04:02
yeah, I do think about that a lot and that's why you have family trusts, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Behind. But no, I think it is one of
01:04:09
those things where especially with Dragon's Den and you going on BBC, there is a expectation of of who you are and
01:04:15
the mental jail you talk about I experienced in the corporate world where I was in recruitment, high-end recruitment and they said, "What'd you
01:04:20
get up to at the weekend?" The truth was I was on an away bus to exit playing rugby and I got dick of the day. So we
01:04:27
had to do Edward cider hands where they duct tape bottles of cider to my hands and I had to drink about three liters of
01:04:33
cider pretty much to break myself free. They put a bin bag around me and I puked in it for the most of the way back. I was like, "Yeah, just went out for
01:04:39
dinner with my friends." And then having that same conversation everyone, good weekend. Oh, lovely. Thanks. Went out for dinner with my
01:04:45
friends. I couldn't even express myself, which is you do feel like you're behind
01:04:50
bars. And I used to have to wear a shirt and tie, clean shaven. I wasn't even client facing most time. And I get I'd
01:04:56
get [ __ ] for not shaving. And where I just wanted to go, why do I need to [ __ ] shave? I'd be like, okay, yeah,
01:05:02
of course. I'll get the dick out tomorrow. It and that builds up. That angst builds
01:05:08
up. And for a lot of people that do suffer mental jail, I think that's another reason martial arts saves them.
01:05:13
They can save that angst. They can save that frustration and channel it later in the day. M
01:05:19
I have big worries over people that don't have an outlet for breaking out of jail. Oh yes. Yeah.
01:05:25
And they probably then turn to alcohol and violence and getting punchups or whatever it is. So I feel that human
01:05:30
beings I believe we're quite combative. I think that you watch kids have play fights. They're not trying to hurt each other. Sometimes they are.
01:05:37
Give them a set of rules. Get them into it. Let them express that. But yeah, the two things. One, if people are in that mental jail, they need a way out to
01:05:43
express them. And if they are in a mental jail, they need to create long-term solutions to not be in there
01:05:48
because not expressing yourself in life, like you say, I've never thought of it like that. I think that's really profound.
01:05:55
Mental jail where in some sense being mentally behind bars must be harder than even worse. Yeah. You see it in one of the examples I've given on this podcast a number of times is in their LGBTQ community where
01:06:06
because they are when people are unable to express even their sexuality, the suicide rates go up. you know, before
01:06:13
they've quote unquote, I don't like the term, but come out the closet. And when you look at the things that are
01:06:18
prescribed in the more holistic mental health treatments as being good for mental health, it's things like um creating music or doing art or even like
01:06:29
dancing and like things like yoga. And expression for me is something that I learned later in life is actually
01:06:34
writing books or doing a podcast. I mean, that's therapy, right? That's when people go to therapy, they do they they express themselves, they let it out.
01:06:40
Look at men that don't express themselves. It's the single biggest killer of suicide. So, let's think. So, we know mental prison is a real thing
01:06:46
and we know the consequences are severe. The question becomes, how much are you imprisoning yourself mentally? How much
01:06:52
are you doing that in your day-to-day life? How much? Like, and you're completely right and I'm so glad that's where you went with it, which is like
01:06:58
you need to find a way in your life where you get a chance to express yourself. The cell walls are closing in
01:07:03
on that jail. You've got to find a way whether it's [ __ ] this is why this is why I got a bit of a problem with the
01:07:09
nature of social media and the and the you're marked on how correct you are not how true to yourself you are. It's all
01:07:17
about correctness typically. It's funny because it's actually not but it feels like it is. We've seen it. I mean the
01:07:22
reason part of the reason why you identified yourself as winning was because you weren't correct. But it
01:07:28
feels like the the the rewards are reserved for those that are correct. Pierce Morgan's the same. the most uncorre like uncorrect person you'll
01:07:34
meet in our look at the [ __ ] numbers he's this guy does you know so I just I don't know I'm very passionate about
01:07:40
that topic of it's interesting you say that because today if people go back and actually listen to me talking about adoption
01:07:45
they'll see that I'm struggling to talk about it because I've never I've spoken about it maybe 10 times in my life to that extent ever online offline whatever
01:07:53
yet we've never met before but the medium in which we've decided to communicate being podcasting has allowed
01:07:59
us to both express our true deep emotions surrounding situations which is this dynamic in which has been created
01:08:06
with you know the the listening world of people that are interested and two people colliding I think it's great and
01:08:12
like you say it's incredibly therapeutic and it's so difficult now to create a medium of distractionless conversation
01:08:19
where you know it's it's almost a dying breed but at the same time being reenergized by people looking to sit down and do it conversations dying two years ago went
01:08:32
away to Melbourne with two friends. I said, "I'm [ __ ] sick to death of social media. We're going away with no electronic devices." And I couldn't
01:08:39
believe how deep our conversations were at dinner, no phones. And um we get to Melbourne and my friend comes around the corner. He's just had a
01:08:45
pee. He goes, "Mate, this looks like a comedy sketch. I'm there with a soduku book." He thought he's like, "Mate, I
01:08:51
thought you were taking the piss. I thought you were trying to make me laugh as I came around the corner. You're genuinely in a soduku book." I was like, "Yeah, mate. What am I going to do for
01:08:56
the rest of the day?" We went to the cinema without our phones. We went out for dinner without our phones and the conversations we were having were so
01:09:02
much more in-depth. I was uncovering problems that my friends were having. I was like, I live with you and you've not
01:09:07
told me this. And uh yeah, it's it's one of those things where I'm very grateful to podcasting because it allows me to get a
01:09:14
lot off my chest as well. Yeah. And like you say, there aren't the mediums for people to get things off
01:09:19
their chest, whether physical or verbal. And I just hope that the way the world's
01:09:25
moving becomes more like that. And again, if you want to express yourself on social media, for me, doing that was
01:09:31
the win, not the followers that I was acrewing from it. That was a bonus. That was like salt and pepper on top of the meal. Just putting something I felt
01:09:38
strongly out every day made me feel good. That's what I got addicted to. Same way email. Writing the emails is what made
01:09:44
me feel good. The what happens after that from a business perspective is erroneous, irrelevant, it doesn't really
01:09:50
matter. So for so many people out there, even if you do a podcast and 10 people are listening, mate, you've won the battle before they've downloaded it, I
01:09:56
think that the more people that can understand that, the better. Quick one, this is maybe a good segue to talk about
01:10:02
a little bit of an announcement I have to make, which is we have a brand new sponsor for the podcast. And some of you
01:10:08
who've seen my social media posts will know that I often wear a lot of jewelry. And the brand that I'm wearing when you
01:10:13
see the chains on is a brand called Crafted. As you can see on the table in front of me if you're watching this on
01:10:18
YouTube, Crafted are a brand that sell really meaningful, affordable men's jewelry. So, I reached out to the founders of Crafted, Alex and Danny, and asked them if they wanted to sponsor the
01:10:30
podcast, and they said they did. They listen to the podcast. They like what we do here. The podcast is a place of meaning, and their jewelry is all about
01:10:36
meaning. And so, we forged a new partnership. The piece of jewelry I wear the most, I want to introduce you to the
01:10:41
pieces and why I wear them is this sand timer. unsurprising for me about sand timer is it's probably the most clear
01:10:47
reminder that our time here on Earth is finite. So, as the episodes go on, I'll introduce a piece of jewelry and I'll
01:10:53
tell you the meaning it has for me and why I wear it. Let's talk about love then. You mentioned love a couple of
01:10:58
times. You referenced that you weren't so good at it by what you were saying there in terms of romantic relationships
01:11:03
and love. What's your uh what's James like when it comes to that department? This is interesting because I feel
01:11:10
already. Do you ever criticize yourself before someone's criticized you? I get in there early. People are I always
01:11:15
think about what they're gonna say. Yes. Okay. So, yeah. So, then they go, "Well, in the last 10 years, you haven't had a relationship
01:11:20
that lasted over a year." Correct. Does that make me bad at relationships or good? Because I will not I will not and
01:11:28
this could be an idealistic utopian desire that I may I could be completely wrong on this, but whenever I have the
01:11:34
feeling that this ain't it, I'm out. I could either be a genius or I could have a fixed mindset when it comes to relationships. This is what I'm figuring out. Business, something goes bad, I'm
01:11:45
like, "Mate, leave it with me. Give me a laptop. Prep bag get and a coffee. Let's do this. Give me my phone. I'll sort it
01:11:52
out." Relationships. I'm like, "Nah, there's no hope. There's no hope. Sorry." Uh, I've also I've got [ __ ]
01:11:57
before for breaking up by text. Sometimes I'm like, "I just need to deal with this now." They're like, "Oh, we'll meet you tomorrow." I'm like, "No, I
01:12:03
can't sleep until I deal with this. Sorry, this isn't working out. We can meet tomorrow if you want, but I'm ending it now." So, it's a two-sided
01:12:10
sword where one, I think that I have these utopian standards that one day I'll be able to turn around and go, I was correct. This is what I wanted. And the other side, the other part of my conscious is like maybe you're not
01:12:23
willing to do the work like you would in other areas of your life. Do you value the I guess the idea, but
01:12:30
do you would you value a romantic relationship in your life? Yeah, I would very much like so psychedelic experience
01:12:37
I had in the last year was really helped me decide I want to have kids. It was You do want to have kids?
01:12:42
I do want to have kids like one because when I have a child it'll be the only biological relative I've ever met which
01:12:48
is a powerful thing. I think that that's going to be incredible for me like to see my features in another human.
01:12:55
That blows my mind and it gets me very excited. So there's that. And I remember me and my friend, and some people
01:13:00
straight away will be angry that I'm talking about illegal drug use, but me and my friend put our phones down for 10
01:13:06
hours, went to a park with a picnic, had a speaker, and we sat opposite a lake, and we just talk [ __ ] out. And I
01:13:13
remember this dad coming by with his kid, and they had bread to give the ducks. And I was like, I was kind of
01:13:18
watching, not in a creepy way. And I thought to myself, like, this is what life is. The dad at some point gives it
01:13:25
over to the son. The son then gives it over to the duck. And I was like, what a shame it'd be if the kid refused to give the bread to the duck. I was like, what
01:13:31
a sad ending to the story that would be. And I went off in my mind thinking about life and thinking about the opportunity.
01:13:36
And my parents sacrificed a lot for me. You know, they had to go to the adoption home. It's spent spend years. They had
01:13:41
to, you know, my mom uh was infertile. She couldn't have kids that they went through so much trauma to get day one
01:13:48
with me. And I thought, [ __ ] And then from day one till now, the school runs, the me being a [ __ ] as a teenager, puberty, I was bad, like all of these
01:13:58
things. And I think everything I have now that I love is because of the sacrifices they made. And with life, I
01:14:06
think soon my time will come to make that same sacrifice. I have to pay this forward. I think that I'll be hardwired
01:14:13
to want to. So sometimes when I'm 32 and I'm thinking, [ __ ] I I need to start focusing on love more because I don't want to be 40 with the most money, the most followers, and have no one around
01:14:24
me when all my friends settled down and had families and I'm the creepy [ __ ] uncle who's banging hot 22-y olds every
01:14:30
weekend. I don't want that. So I need to make sure that I don't arrive at the wrong finish line. That's a very, very
01:14:36
important thing. That would be the worst thing in the world. Why? Because I think ultimately the the
01:14:42
only way we can really enjoy things is to share them with people. And this is my favorite thing I've ever done with my
01:14:47
money is is buy people ludicrous things. You know, I with my friends, I lie to them. I say to them, um, I'm banging a
01:14:54
girl who works for BA. Give me your flight details. I'll get you upgraded and then I'll upgrade them. And they'll hate me for it. They're
01:15:00
like, you [ __ ] prick. You shouldn't have done that. You know, but then when they land wherever they got and they're
01:15:05
like, mate, that was the best flight of my life. I love doing that. And I'd love to do that in a family setting as well.
01:15:10
The look on a kid's face when they go on holiday or or whatever it is. And for me, that's an integral part. Spending
01:15:18
money on yourself is a short-term fix. I think if you buy something for yourself, it's pleasure. If you buy something someone else, it's happiness.
01:15:24
If I buy myself a Lamborghini, I'll be excited for 3 months. If I buy someone else a Lamborghini, I'll be excited for
01:15:30
the whole time they drive it. So, the prospect of family to me is not only a long-term investment into their
01:15:35
lives, but the long-term investment into my own happiness. Mhm. And you know, it it's like an ultimate
01:15:41
project for me that I'm really excited about. And I think that one of the most important and integral things I value
01:15:48
about financial freedom and working only a few hours a day is my dad said this to
01:15:54
me once, so I'll never forget him saying it. He goes, "I wish I'd spent more time with you when you were growing up to me
01:16:00
and my sister." I was like, "Fucking hell." It's like, "Dad, like, you know, he he commuted to the city every day for
01:16:06
50 years, worked in the same company, King William Street, 50 years." And so he would leave the house at 6:30 and get
01:16:12
back at 7:00 p.m. And when I heard that, I was like, one, I never felt that way, but two, I won't make that same mistake.
01:16:19
So, for me, it's going to be a big part of my life in time to then set someone else up to experience everything I've experienced. Because if I do that right, dying won't be such a big problem. Like
01:16:31
now my biggest problem is that if I did, you know, and hate to say it, don't want to jinx myself. If I did get cancer next
01:16:37
year, my biggest regret would not be having kids. I hate to talk about tragic illnesses or whatever,
01:16:42
but one of my very good friends, um, his name is Paula Lima. He was very badly affected by COVID and he had to be hospitalized. He was in hospital bed, which is funny cuz he's quite literally
01:16:53
a fitness model. If you look at the Maxi Muscle tubs of protein, he was the six-pack on the front really. So, um,
01:16:59
incredible shape, all of that. And I said to him, "What was it like?" And he goes, "Just so happy I had my kids and that they'll be looked after." He was
01:17:05
like that. He almost had a, he won't mind me saying this, a sense of accomplishment on quite literally what
01:17:12
could have been his deathbed. I thought, "Fuck, I could do with some of that." It's so remarkable how you see people's
01:17:18
lives and priorities switch when they have kids. And you just you know it's coming because all of my friends that have had kids they always I wish I'd
01:17:24
done it sooner or you really wish you know that kind of narrative of like there's this profound sense of meaning
01:17:31
that we're yet to discover. Have you ever thought about so let's say human beings as we know them have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. The lineage the amount of grandparents great
01:17:42
great grandparent how many how many times has a baby been produced in that lineage?
01:17:49
Thousands. All it took, all it would ever take through hundreds of thousands of years of lineage was one person to not want to
01:17:56
do it or you know they obviously didn't have quite the choice back then but all it would have taken was one person to
01:18:02
break that chain and so many of us wouldn't exist now. I think about this all the time like my biological mother
01:18:09
who gave me up for adoption. She could have ended the chain there. If anything, you know, I'm still very much pro-choice
01:18:15
and I feel like I have a voice to say that because if my biological mother had ch chosen to abort me, then I wouldn't
01:18:20
have a life. All it would take is one break in that chain of lineage for me not to exist. And I'm like, that's too
01:18:27
much hard work that's gone on before me. You think the majority of the human race has existed in poverty, in the cold, in
01:18:32
famine, in all of these things. I'm like, I can't stop the buck here for what a selfish life, you know, for
01:18:38
layans and to get a full night's sleep. I once asked my followers on Instagram whether they regretted having kids and
01:18:45
the poll substantially was more in favor of people regretting it. But I think yeah it was it was quite literally if you could go back and not have kids would you? And it was like a 4951 but
01:18:58
it's circumstantial. I can imagine they're like yeah you know the grass is always greener. All right.
01:19:03
You have kids they keep you awake the little shits all of this. Stop you having sex with your wife. Whatever it is and it's all too easy to just go a
01:19:09
[ __ ] yeah. You know, I wish I had my young life yet, but I've never truly met a rich, successful
01:19:16
single person without kids with a life that I envy. I mean, like even Danarian, right?
01:19:21
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I quite I don't idolize him. I've just listened to some of his podcasts. He's like, "Yeah, you know, like I have
01:19:28
multiple girlfriends. I'm the only guy they've uh you know, I've never never been lied to by." I sometimes look and I
01:19:33
go, "I feel sorry for you a little bit. I feel sorry for you." And I even I joke to my friends. I'm like, I have the
01:19:40
perfect amount of success. I almost I'm worried to have too much more. Too many temptations, too easy. You know, when when things become we live in an age where our devices are too replaceable,
01:19:51
you know, uh new iPhone comes out, suddenly the old ones obsolete. See you later, whatever it is. I never want that
01:19:58
to be the same with people. And that's where I feel that successful wealthy men go. When they don't, you're falling on
01:20:05
the sword to have a family. It's sacrifice. It isn't always a net positive decision for your lifestyle.
01:20:12
There's more meaning to it than people allude to. And I think when faced with the decision myself of whether or not I
01:20:19
want to do it, I'm need to say what's the opposite? Well, what else am I going to do? You know, there's pleasure and
01:20:26
happiness again so different. I say to people that everyone has access to happiness. Some don't know it, but they
01:20:31
do. All have access to happiness. Not everyone has access to pleasure. And you can live a life of happiness without pleasure. But you cannot live a life of
01:20:38
pleasure without happiness. And the second you try and fill your quot of happiness with pleasure, you end up
01:20:43
going down dark holes, drugs, alcohol, sex, whatever it is. And people being unaware of that decision to be proactive in the pleasure pursuit. When really the getting woken up by the kids, the taking
01:20:56
the kids to school, your kid going through puberty giving you [ __ ] was really the happiness under your nose the whole time that you never really knew
01:21:02
about. So, I don't have an anecdote to unhappiness, but I think I have a good clue on what would bring me a life of happiness. I've had enough pleasure so far. I'm tired. So, what work would you
01:21:16
have to do then in terms of getting getting yourself into a romantic relationship? When I think about my myself, I think, well, if I'm going to
01:21:22
be the kind of guy that could offer what I imagine my wife would want me to offer, I'm probably going to have to
01:21:28
change this or be a bit more like this. I have to work on this thing that I do because I'm a bit of a dick there. What are those things for you?
01:21:34
So, this is an interesting one. I think I need to start working on myself and being a better human. I don't think I've been a great human in a lot of my relationships. I think that I've been
01:21:45
selfish and I think that I've made bad decisions and then I've blamed the other person for it cuz I haven't I haven't
01:21:53
accepted that it was me being a bad person that caused that emotion. certainly something I've been reading some books like uh I read attached and came to terms with my avoidant
01:22:04
relationship style. There's something I really want to work on and I think that moving forward I need to yes respect my
01:22:12
partner but I need to respect myself and hold myself to higher standards. I think that if I can hold myself to higher
01:22:17
standards I will quite simply be a better human. And I think that I need to start taking more responsibility for
01:22:24
things because so many things in life you can work your way out of and you can, you know, change and develop and and build to it. And I need to put that attitude
01:22:36
into relationships. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying it's it's needs to be done. So I think that I have work to
01:22:43
be done. And I think I just need to communicate that with whoever I'm with and just say, "Look, if you look at my
01:22:48
books, I'm great. You look at my academy, I'm great. Live talks, give me sell out the O2, I'll be great.
01:22:55
Relationships, I got some [ __ ] work. I'm coming with baggage." So, you know, as long as someone is open and accepting
01:23:01
of that. I think that's the first hurdle. I don't think I've ever sat that down before. I think that when I've arrived at relationships before, I'm
01:23:07
like, "Well, babe, I'm going to be a lot more interested than anyone else you [ __ ] dated, and that has to go.
01:23:14
You say you you need to be a better human. Give me just a couple of specifics when you say better human because that's quite broad.
01:23:21
You get quite a lot of options being well known having an Instagram inbox. You have a lot of temptations. You have there are there are quite frankly women
01:23:31
that I've I've even met on nights out and I say, "Hey, I've got a girlfriend." And they go, "I don't care." And they say, "I'm not going to tell her." And
01:23:40
having that means that you have to raise the level of who you are. You are no longer just a 32-y old warm-blooded male. You have, you know, options in
01:23:50
front of you. This these are more difficult to say no to because one of the biggest issues I believe men have with the dating scene is they need to win a woman's trust. When you are wellknown, they already have the trust.
01:24:03
It's danger lurking at the door. It's opportunities. It's, you know, so many of these things to rise to that challenge is no easy feat. And that's why I believe so many men have fallen.
01:24:16
It's a self-destructive pattern as well because so many men have amazing families, beautiful wives, and great
01:24:22
kids, and they just lost that ability to be a strong man for one hour and it's gone. It's a tough ask. It's a tough challenge. But then everything has been
01:24:34
so far. None of this has particularly been easy. It's been enjoyable, but it's not been easy. So, that's something that
01:24:40
I'm going to have to work on. But I want to revel in that because my mom and dad are still together. That's, you know,
01:24:46
something that I'm grateful for. And it's something that they still argue. They still have bickers. You know, my dad made my mom cry the other day saying she's going shopping too much because of the COVID rates. And I was like that.
01:25:00
It's crazy to see. My dad can't even watch the gory part of a film, but [ __ ] he's a strong human. He stayed in the
01:25:07
same business for 50 years. He stayed in the same relationship 50 years. I think it's about time that I like took
01:25:12
inspiration from them on things outside of business. Lastly, is you were writing a book about
01:25:18
confidence. Confidence. I let you say that first just in case I was letting the cat out of the bag, but you're writing a book about confidence. Why are you doing
01:25:24
that? And what have you learned from starting that process? It's something that really I wouldn't come at it from a
01:25:30
place of hey my name is James Smith. I know everything about confidence. My sweat patches wouldn't say that. But
01:25:35
it's something so inquisitive. It's a tool in which I've used. And you know when I was writing the first chapter I called it a superpower. Then I deleted that because superpowers are unobtainable. This is obtainable. And
01:25:47
I've come to realize and during the writing I'm learning a lot as well. I'm like is confidence genetics? And I go
01:25:53
into heritability and then I go into, you know, what different types of confidence are there? How does it affect
01:25:59
us? You had Mel Robbins on recently. So I started listening to her book 54321. It's like 54321. I'm still [ __ ] my pants asking this girl for a [ __ ] number. So like then I I like to get
01:26:11
into these systems. I go that might work for someone, but that doesn't work for me. And during this process, I'm not
01:26:16
releasing it until January next year. I'm going on these journeys. I'm asking myself these questions. So I'm very happy to go to external uh experts in
01:26:24
that field. There's quite a bit of nonsense out there I feel. And similar to the world of fitness, I'm not the most fit guy. But I took the field and I provided clarity. I'm not the expert in
01:26:36
life design. But I went out, I created a book on clarity. I wouldn't want to come into a place of confidence go hey I'm
01:26:42
the most confident person on the planet. Because so many of us that are very confident in certain realms have gaping holes in our confidence. Every one of
01:26:49
us. You and I, right? You're doing a O2 Arena. 16,000 people in there. Do your thing. We'll be like, "Let's go." You're in Sorrow House on a Friday night. That girl is g ask for a number. No, no, no.
01:27:01
I'm I'm too scared. You know, so if we can help people identify their gaping holes, give them understanding for it.
01:27:08
Is it merely a perception of our external reality? Is it something that's nature? Is it
01:27:14
nurture? It's I wish I had more for you right now, but I'm still learning. And again, someone goes, "Why should I buy your book on confidence?" I go, "It took me a year and a half. It's 12 quid.
01:27:26
Don't [ __ ] buy it then." So, yeah, it's it's one of those things. It's a very exciting project for me. And even
01:27:33
now, I I enjoy talking to people I admire about it because they'll say something and I'll be like, I can't wait
01:27:39
to research that and go down the rabbit hole and have 20 browsers open on my laptop. It it's an exciting prog process
01:27:46
that I really enjoy. Well, listen, uh, James, you know, we've got one more thing to do, which is a tradition of the D CEO, which you might have seen before if you've watched a podcast before, which is the previous
01:27:57
guest asks the next guest a question, and they never know who they're writing it for. And also, I never know what the
01:28:03
question is until I read it. So, what is your definition of luck? when preparation meets opportunity. I disregard luck when people talk about
01:28:15
it. People say, "I got lucky." I say, "Fuck you." I'm like, "No, you didn't." And I I hate the way people connect
01:28:22
people's dots. I hate it. For yourself, someone goes, "Oh, right age, right time, right time, right age, [ __ ] you."
01:28:29
You know, I hate it. No one's lucky. And I think that although there are certain
01:28:35
privileges people can have, please never underestimate someone's work because connecting the dots is a primitive thing
01:28:41
that we do. And you know, the better people can suppress the notion that they're lucky, they can be fortunate in some respects, but this luck, I don't let's not undo people's work.
01:28:54
I completely agree. And I also think that um to add to that, when you start to believe in this religion of luck,
01:29:00
what you're actually doing is disempowering yourself, you're handing over the reigns of your life to this force outside of your control, and
01:29:07
you're just sitting there aimlessly hoping that it falls in your favor. And I So when I post things sometimes, I I'd
01:29:12
like to wind people up on my stories. And the things I'll post are like, honestly, the easiest way to wind people up is just to talk about personal
01:29:18
responsibility. Okay, you weren't to blame for what happened, but you are now responsible. One of my guests, who was
01:29:24
it? Um Mark Manson he said okay someone leaves a baby on your doorstep not your fault but it is immediately your responsibility and and people just and Mo Gad said it as well people just
01:29:35
[ __ ] hate the idea of like taking responsibility for your life um but I think that any other choice pointing at luck pointing at privilege too much
01:29:47
despairing that the Tory government are in power so that's why you're poor is a way to hand to to choose your puppet
01:29:53
master as this invisible force that gets to call the shots. Thank you so much. You were nervous, you said, to to come and do this today. Do you know what? I actually about 2 three hours ago, I stood up and I said, I'm
01:30:05
not nervous. I really care about this podcast. Yeah. Because for me, when I got the invitation, it
01:30:12
got me excited. The opportunity to talk. I know this platform. I know I think I have a good idea of where this podcast is going as well. Yeah.
01:30:18
And for me to have an opportunity to not be Instagram James meant a lot to me. So, it's more of a fact that this was
01:30:25
important to me. I wasn't scared for it. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's amazing. And you know, I I personally just took a
01:30:32
screenshot of you after seeing you say something online and sent it to my team, I think about two weeks ago and said,
01:30:38
and I never do this, right? What the way that the podcast typically works is the team will come up with people that they
01:30:44
know that I would like and they'll send them to me to approve or not. But it worked the opposite way around with you. I saw something you said. I thought,
01:30:50
"This guy's truthful. He's honest. He has He's smart. Really smart. Probably way smarter than I think people give you credit for because honestly, this is one of my favorite conversations ever. Thank you. And it's not because you have a, you
01:31:02
know, just just because you have a great story. It's because you have the wisdom to point at the lessons you've learned and you have the humility also to point
01:31:09
at them with impartiality. Um, so I I was like, can you reach out to this dude and please ask him if he wants to come
01:31:15
here? And that doesn't always happen. Um, so again it's for me when you say your this was important for you and I
01:31:21
saw you did an Instagram post saying I'm going on a podcast. That's really Do you know for me that is like the most it's the greatest thing that we hear. I just
01:31:28
want to say thank you cuz honestly it's one of my favorite conversations ever on this podcast and I mean that I don't have to say that. I don't gas
01:31:33
people up if I don't have to. I just say thank you. Goodbye. But no, I genuinely mean that. It's really really really amazing conversation and
01:31:39
I uh I also now understand why you've been so successful. So thank you for your time. Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom and uh
01:31:45
yeah, going to keep watching you grow and grow. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
01:32:03
[Music]