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I was destined to spend the rest of my natural life in prison crimes I didn't commit so journalist documentarian this is
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prison saw you're going to hear a story there's only a short period after my son
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was born two months in fact my life changed Forever on 15th December 1988 a series of terrifying crimes took place along the newly built M25 I was being accused of a murder and a series of
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aggravated robberies they fabricated evidence and changed things to fit me into the crime [ __ ] hell they
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convicted us and I was destined to spend the rest of my life in prison for the crimes I didn't commit when I was in the
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isolation cell strip naked bleeding and bruised I screamed and I shouted through the pain that I was suffering nobody
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heard my voice at that moment something started to grow in me that made me become the person that I am today what is that thing that started to grow in you
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hope free after more than a decade Behind Bars what is a mistake that you know you've made that you haven't yet fixed the consequences of my actions has meant that I've never been able to
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discover anything about my son if I put a button in front of you and said you press this button and it raises
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those 12 years I'll never ever get those years back did you press the button before this episode begins I just want to say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers 74 of you that watch
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this channel didn't subscribe before and we're now down to about 71 so that helps
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us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain but simply the bigger the channel gets the bigger the guests get so if you haven't yet subscribed to
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the Diary of a CEO if I can have any favors from you if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it it's just to please hit the Subscribe button I hope
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you enjoy this episode [Music] take me back I am if you've ever had this podcast before I'm a huge believer that in order
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to understand a person you have to really understand their context and their earliest context
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you're from a council estate um your home life to me from reading through your autobiography seemed to be incredibly defining so take me back to those earliest years and give me the
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context I need to understand the man that you are in your early twenties I'll go back even further and take you to the kind of environment that I grew up in so I grew up in southeast London
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camberwell to be precise um just at the bottom of cold Arbor Lane which is the kind of Junction between
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Brixton and camberwell before you get to Peckham so that kind of Circle of or that triangle as I like to describe it
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in in southeast London and it was quite a typical um working class environment cancerless
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State and the privilege of it was that we were all the same nobody had anything and the other thing about that cancerless state in the environment that I grew up in in it was a bit of a a kind
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of cul-de-sac you know in these kind of Estates where you've got block after block there were little roads in little roads out onto this estate and that
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little patch of grass in front of our blocks are flat and it was quite diverse you know I was from the mixed race
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family my mum's white my dad's black you know the floor below my flat we had the Chinese family below that we had the
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kind of overweight family and opposite then we had the smell melee family so there was the Scottish family over in
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the other Block in the Irish family so it was a real mix of cultures and personalities and characters and parents
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and I'm not going to say that weren't there weren't issues and problems of course there was and you'd always have the shouting but there and I'm not going
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to make it sound mythically like it was a great time because it wasn't but when you're a kid you don't recognize the
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problems that your parents are facing you're not being able to pay for the electricity not being able to buy the things that kids want new trainers and
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stuff like that so it's quite stable but unstable at the same time because there was also a lot of
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um crime but not crime that was obvious to young guys like me and the girls and you
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know having a camp in the bottom of a block of flats would be our highlight you know we go in there put dead
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mattresses in there and bits of blankets that was my kind of environment so I kind of grew up in this cancerous state
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that was very diverse I had lots of different cultures um and it made me comfortable
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my home life was slightly different you know my dad is Jamaica and he was strict he came from a very strict family back
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in Jamaica so when he was in the UK kind of brought that chip with him didn't quite integrate into British Society was
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a laborer had a strong Jamaican accent still has a strong Jamaican accent because he never kind of
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never really kind of integrated himself now whether that's because he couldn't because he couldn't read and write
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whether that's because he wasn't accepted because he was a black man who came in on the Wind rush or whether it's
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because he didn't want to I've never really found out because I've never really had that conversation with my dad
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so that's the context that's what I was growing up in a cancerous state that was
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working class and very poor if I was if I was in the walls of your home at that time what would have I what would I felt it seen experienced as it
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relates to the relationship you had with your your parents was there affection was there
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was there um was there love I think there was love but it wasn't open love as in no cuddles I love you kind of conversations nothing like that
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took place my mum oozed care and consideration and um and love towards me and my three sisters my dad was very strict he was also a drinker I wouldn't say he was an
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alcoholic but he liked to consume alcohol and that made him aggressive and so in my household occasionally my dad could be physically abusive towards me
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and my sisters as well as my my mother to the point where sometimes it got so extreme that we felt we had to flee the home so it could be quite brutal and he'd take it out on us so it was a
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challenging household that wasn't all the time you know my Dad could also be a joy you know you could be the life of the party if there was music playing and he was slamming dominoes and he had friends around we'd
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love it because we were being exposed to this adult world that seemed exciting and welcoming and very different because
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there was a mix between the black culture and the white culture and for me despite the negatives in those walls that you talk about there was also a lot
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of positives I think my dad's discipline was born out of the idea that he thought
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that was the way to get us to do the things we needed to do to improve our lives he had no Ambitions he had no
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aspirations or anything like that and he didn't give us any of those Ambitions or
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aspirations but I'm sure that he wanted me and my sisters to do better than he did
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I hear that um it's a conversation I thought you know a lot about my own mother who was
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extremely um she's from Nigeria my dad's English um her approach towards disciplining
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kids is very uh would be frowned upon I guess is a way of saying it um you know I got it all um some things I've actually never said but I've got it all and you know as I've
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grown up I've wondered was that you know great parenting was it intentional was it you know or was it just like a lack
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of control I think it's a lack of Education i i as a as an adult Steve I I made a a beeline to Jamaica with my dad I needed to understand why he was the
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man that he was somebody that had never given me a hug never given me a kiss during my time in prison I witnessed
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things with other families white families in particular where they'd come up to visit their son and at the end of
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the visit they'd hug each other they'd kiss each other and they'd walk off of that visit and that inmate who I
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observed getting that affection was in a good mood I never got any of that I would from my mum but never from my dad
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my dad had a beard and I remember on one visit on one occasion sort of reaching out for him in the way that I saw other people do because I'd never experienced that to give him a kiss and it was a
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kind of really awkward moment Not only was he spared itchy and difficult but I know that he wanted it but didn't want it so when I went to Jamaica I went there to see what his life was like and
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I learned so much about why he was the man that he was in the house that I grew up in and it taught me a lot of lessons about why my dad was the way that he he was I can I can in some respects
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understand that as it relates to you guys you know maybe he had learned the wrong way to to get kids to behave in a
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difficult environment in a difficult area I think uh sometimes parents wrongly in my opinion but they think that a more harsh approach is the right one but then as it relates to your
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mother being violent towards your mother that to me seems a little bit more difficult to understand using the same explanation that it's uh mechanism to help kids
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I don't think in my household it was anything to do with helping the kids I think it was something he witnessed in
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his own household as he was growing up I know from what I heard when I went to Jamaica that my dad's dad was violent
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that he was abusive towards my dad and his siblings and no doubt to my dad's mother who died when my dad was very young so I think it comes from a place where he witnessed that and it was the
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norm to him and he brought that into his own life and couldn't control it you kicked out of school at Secondary
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School in my first year at my secondary school an incident happened with a teacher where she called me a thing you know you think you know you shouldn't be here kind of thing and I went home
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crying and I remember my mum going to the school having an altercation with the teacher and slapping the teacher and
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as a result of my mum being protective now to other people that may seem like she's assaulted a teacher But the
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teacher insulted me first verbally not physically but verbally so my mum being the protective mother that she was came
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to the school and slapped the teacher in her face for calling her son a thing and I got expelled to the consequences were
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I got expelled and went to another school which is now the charter school in red post doing dulwich but it was
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then called William Penn an all-boy school and and I survived that school for just a few years before you know my problem surfaced more and more and I was
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expelled from that school what were your problems let's go first I think I just couldn't set oh I I think
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it was you know I I wanted more than what the school were offering me I don't think the schools in those days could
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identify what what kids like me who grew up on Council Estates needed education was one thing
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but we needed more I had as I've said uh in a troubled home life not so much that the the schools needed to intervene I wouldn't argue it was
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anywhere near as bad as that as it is in some kids lives today and in the past but but I needed more support and I
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don't think I got any of that from my schooling and that just allowed me to do the things that I shouldn't be doing which is bunking off a school not going to my lessons getting into fights
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hanging out with the wrong kids and those wrong kids would probably be saying hanging out with me you know so
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it's kind of Vice Versa but I think it was just doing the mundane things that kids who are not enjoying school not
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taking in the lessons that they're being learned you know end up being kicked out of school so I was kicked out of my
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second secondary school at the age of 15 16 and they put me in what they call an intermediate school which is basically a
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kind of building where they put all kids that they deemed to be um you know irresponsible or or not
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responsive to the education system but what you're actually doing is just putting a bunch of kids who are already
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struggling in life and trying to discover who they are or deal with their their problems in one environment and
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you just breed even more problems and how did that manifest itself for you I think I started to get in trouble with the law I started to commit Petty crimes
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shoplifting breaking into cars burglary um some people might think that burglary
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is more serious than what it was but when you're a 16 17 year old um you know it was just a means to an end so that's how it manifested itself I
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started to get into trouble with the law I remember the first time a police officer brought me home after I got
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caught Nick in curly whirly chocolate bars from the co-op around the around the corner from my house and it wasn't
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that I needed the curly world because I already had a drawer full of chocolate that I pinched earlier but it was more about I don't know you
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know coming home from school going in the shop knowing that I could do it and get away with it was the driver I didn't
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need the chocolate that I got caught and I remember a police officer bringing me home and I remember standing in the
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front room with my dad who was fuming and I knew I was going to get beaten for what I did because that was his reaction
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to my behavior um and the police officer I think was sympathetic in sort of saying you know
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this is not a serious offense but it is the beginning of something that could become serious and he was right because
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I continued to get into trouble with the law doing nothing more serious than what
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I just mentioned burglaries um shoplifting in particular for clothes and things that I wanted that I didn't have the material things that we didn't have around us in those cancellous
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states that were becoming more and more um advertised you know advertisements you know Dairy maybe I was Nick in the chocolate bar because they had at the time the dairy milk chocolate ad where the guy slide through the winter and
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gives these lover a bar of chocolate and that was my Temptation um so that's how it manifested itself
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mixing with people who were already going down the wrong path getting together and doing that wrong path
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together 17 you you get arrested for that I got I got arrested for burglary when I was 17 and I went to court I got arrested when
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I was I think 18 maybe 17 18 for assault I I had an altercation with a mechanic who attacked me with a spanner because I was giving it the big I am but he was a man I was a boy and he attacked me but I
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managed to wrestle the spanner from him and hit him with the spanner so I was done for Grievous bodily harm and went
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to court and got a a prison sentence which was over or a young offender's sentence which was overturned
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um so I spent just a few days in in custody but then was out on probation that was about as serious as it got
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the knives show up in your story a few times um you stab someone in the bum that was on
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top of you punching you and then you got stabbed yourself 18 years old I lived in a world at that point and kids live in that world today
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where carrion and knife was normalized it was an extra an extension of who you are an extension of your personality an extension of your
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character but most importantly I think it was something that we did and that's me and my friendship group and even the enemy friendship group if you like
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where they were trying to show Authority this is something you fear you don't just fear the person but you fear the fact that that person may be carrying a knife and may be willing to use the
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knife and I did I used the knife I I remember being conscious of the fact that using a knife could cause serious harm that didn't stop me but it did make me realize that by using
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that knife I could harm someone really seriously hence the reason I stabbed this individual in the buttocks the bum
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rather than anywhere else but that full circle came around and I was attacked and having people not by the same people no
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um you know I moved around in a group of guys and there were lots of different groups of guys in lots of different
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areas and we were quite we had quite a reputation the 1780 my best friend was a known fighter he could look after himself and I was a bit of a follower at
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this age I was a bit of a follower and he had such a freedom in his life he grew up in the Care Homes his dad came to England with my dad so I knew him from when he was very young and growing
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up in the care home system he was he just had this sense of Freedom that I wanted and I wanted it because as I say my dad was quite a you know
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disciplined guy and so if I wanted to go out he didn't want me to go out now whether that was because he wanted to be mean to me or whether it was because he
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was trying to protect me from what I wanted to go and do which is to go and hang out with guys who had no life
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really but just hanging out smoking weed and chatting up girls that's what her life evolved around but in that
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environment there were men young boys who wanted to challenge us or we wanted to challenge them and so inevitably it kind of leads to you carrying a knife
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and in my case using a knife and having a knife used against me and from what I read I believe in your autobiography they kidnapped you one day and took you to a park beat you up Etc
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the the boy who I stabbed in the bum he had a older brother who was quite a known criminal in the area in Peckham in southeast London and he and his friends
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who were older than me and my group of friends came to my flat kicked off the door
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um and took me in a car to a park I was bundled in the back of the car I was taken to a park I was strip naked I was beaten black and blue
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I thought I was gonna die I thought that was kind of you know what was going to happen to me I thought I was going to
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die when These Guys these big guys were kind of threatening me in the car what they were going to do to me they stripped me naked and they beat me black
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and blue and then they left me in this park now it was in Peckham but I didn't know where it was because I was in the back of the car couldn't see where I was
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going ended up stopping being dragged into this park strip naked and beaten and this is the violent environment that
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I was now involved in caught up in but I will say this even though that world may sound to people like a really violent and
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Disturbed world that's not who I was I was caught up in it and I was involved in it but I know I wasn't that person because it's not the person my parents were
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bringing up my sisters you know are law abiding citizens I was the black sheep of the family I was doing things because
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other people were doing things and I was with those other people that's not me Steve blaming other people for what I
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did and the involvement that I got in that was free will but it just wasn't who I was I just
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didn't recognize it at the time I can completely relate to that I think um growing up around certain
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environments where people are shoplifting breaking into things you know in the environment that I was in in
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Plymouth you know if I recounted some of the things that we did below the age of
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18 in Plymouth some of the things that made the newspaper there was one day where 100 of us got together with weapons and we were going to March over
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the bridge and attack the neighboring area and all these you know things we did because of the environment it's not who I am but in an environment we can
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bring out any side of us ourselves in an effort to really conform and to fit in um and as a method of Defense We join the crowds and that's kind of what I've heard when I when I talk about those sort of first 18 years of your life and
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those things and you you know you answer these questions how does it feel I have this heat glow through my body
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right now as we're talking about it because I I'm kind of projecting myself back to that moment and the person that
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I was the environment that I grew up in my household my friendship group and the
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lack of guide and guidance and support that young men like me wanted and I you know I'm not a kind of bleeding heart person who sort of says oh well there should have been people there catching us there should have been people there
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guiding us no there shouldn't have been um but maybe understanding that environment as you just say you know following in that environment is is not always a choice
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that we make because it's the only choice it's it's a decision that we make because there is no alternative because you don't know of any other alternative and so talking about it now
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um it makes me heat up inside not in an angry way or in a passionate way but as a reflection of the person and the life that I led and what what got me through
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that as well I think that's also important because in that moment at that time that I was
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kicking someone or being kicked or I was fighting with someone I was breaking into a house or shoplifting it's the
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only thing I know it was the only thing I knew to get money to pay for the things that
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I wanted it was the only thing that the people around me know you know rolling a joint and smoking a joint was a bit of
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fun it it we didn't think as you're not supposed to think when you're a teenager of the consequences and for some people
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those consequences can lead to you know dire situations as it did me or it can lead to a New Direction in life because they've learned a lesson and they think right I want to go down a different path
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or they meet someone who gives them an opportunity to go down a different path so as I think about it now I just
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remember there was no alternative there are no unknowns aren't they you don't even know what you don't know you
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don't even know that you don't know about the other paths that are possible if you grew up in that context where you
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know there's no relatable Role Models there's no one you can model yourself against that's living a
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other than what you said which is the TV you get to see some people that look like you that come from where you come from on the TV but what I mean how many
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seats are are there at that table I just wonder whether there were people around but I wasn't exposed to them in the same
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way that there are I mean okay social media technology is you know giving us different platforms but I just wonder
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where they were when I was in that predicament my own predicament my own environment where were these people and
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whether it was the school teachers as I say they were not guiding me in the right direction yes their job is to just educate and to impart information and I
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should have been sucking up that information like most of my peers I suppose because not everybody who grew up in the same environment that I did
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went on to lead the same life as me so there must have been something within my personality and there definitely was that made me become the person that I
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become and go down the path that I went down but I do wonder where those people were at the time maybe they were just
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living their lives outside of the council estate and so they didn't come into where I was because I saw very few
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people become successful that were in my immediate circle when you got stabbed they they slashed your face didn't they
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you've still got a scar from I have a scar down the left-hand side of my cheek I was attacked you're this is part of
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the you were kidnapping the guy that's when they that's a different incident that was a difference that was a different incident I was um
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I was going to visit an ex-girlfriend we'd had a bit of a rocket relationship and I remember going to visit her in
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Brixton and there were some guys attacking an elderly woman and being the kind of person that I was and this is
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why I say there was something in me even then um that cared and I tried to intervene
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and it led to me getting into a fight with these guys I didn't know they were holding a knife
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I didn't have a knife with me at the time and they beat me one of them held me down he stabbed me in my temple and then cut the side of my face
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open after the fight I got up literally held my cheek together and made my way back to my best friend who took me to a hospital and I had my
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face stitched up by the hospital you're 18 at this time 18. at that age 18 were you looking out into your future what are you saying nothing nothing absolutely nothing just the
00:25:08
existence that I was in at that very moment at that point it was about revenge it was about finding out who did
00:25:15
to me what had just been done to me and how me and my group of friends could go and seek revenge on those individuals
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especially my best friend who was my kind of leader if you like he was the one who was more angrier than anybody
00:25:30
um that's all it was about at that very moment didn't see beyond that that's what my existence was
00:25:35
at 18 as well something real life changes in a interesting way when you um you find out you're having a baby
00:25:42
yes another one of my girlfriends who was also a young girl who grew up in the same estate as me never really had any kind of feelings for each other at any point ended up in bed one night
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she got pregnant um and gave birth to my son at that point our relationship which didn't exist in the first place
00:26:09
became even more of a challenge because I was still a young man myself and all of a sudden I'd
00:26:15
become a dad and I didn't know what a dad was my dad wasn't as much as I love my dad he wasn't a role model in how to
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become a good dad there was no one sort of saying to me um this is a huge responsibility now son
00:26:27
and you've got to go off and do the right thing not just for you but for this young man that you've brought into the world
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and I was also just caught up in my own existence and my own world I had nothing to offer my son no guidance no money no
00:26:42
life probably love but I didn't quite understand what love meant at that point to share with this new thing that had come into in into my life and so a
00:26:55
relationship mine and my son's mother broke down didn't exist and that was the end of that did you think she had been trying to trap you
00:27:07
I think I was at that age quite quite popular among the group of people that I was hanging around with and um had a bit of a reputation
00:27:20
um and yeah I think I think she you know she didn't protect herself and I didn't protect myself and so when we made love and had sex
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didn't even recognize or realize that she might fall pregnant but at the time one of the one of the things that came
00:27:39
between us was me thinking that the reason she got pregnant was because she wanted to trap me into a relationship
00:27:45
where she could have me and no one else could and that became a bug bear of mine it just made me feel that this wasn't
00:27:53
somebody getting pregnant because we loved each other and we wanted to bring a child into the world and have a happy ever after I felt it was a
00:28:01
a trap that I was being brought into this situation because she wanted me um and that's how self-centered I was at that age and this was actually when I was
00:28:12
just before I turned just 20. actually not 18 but just before I turned 20 because it was only a short period after my son was born
00:28:24
two months in fact that I was first arrested and charged with crimes I didn't commit and ended up in prison so it was only two months after he was born that my life changed forever well you
00:28:35
know you weren't there when he was born I think I read in yours I was at the hospital the day after he was born so I
00:28:40
got there the day after he was born and did what any parent dad would want to do
00:28:46
which is hold their newborn son daughter and and try and I'm glad I did actually
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because I think that was a moment that I bonded with him and recognized this was real as opposed to the months leading up
00:28:59
to it a pregnancy um so I was there the day after he was born um and then had limited contact over the next two months
00:29:12
before I ended up getting arrested and imprisoned and then that was the end of our relationship and this is why I say I
00:29:20
felt that the the the the mother of my son um tried to trap me because during that
00:29:27
period it was I don't want anybody else to come and visit you if you want to see that you know there are alter maidens made to
00:29:33
me that I would not be able to see my son in this I made certain decisions in my life to cut other people out of my
00:29:39
life and and that kind of reinforced this idea that I'd already had I was being trapped into a relationship I
00:29:45
didn't want to be in I didn't love the woman we had a sexual relationship and that's all it really was and I feel
00:29:51
really bad saying that because the sun come out of that and and you know as a grown man now but I still don't have any
00:29:58
relationship with him as a result of my actions not his nothing to do with him and probably not even his mother
00:30:05
um but really it comes down to the person I was at that time in my life when was the last time you spoke to him
00:30:13
I've never spoke to him I've never had the privilege of having a conversation with him apart from when he
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was still in his nap he's being brought up to see me on a visiting table have you tried when I came out of prison I made
00:30:31
a application through the courts against my better judgment to try and get access
00:30:36
to my son and I remember turning up at court on one occasion um as the hearings were progressing and I think this was the kind of key hearing and as I was walking into the call you
00:30:48
know the solicitors and the lawyers and the people that were involved in this kind of child custody case was making it
00:30:53
clear to me that my son didn't want to see me his mum didn't want me to have a relationship with him and I just felt at that moment it would be wrong of me to
00:31:04
force this situation so I walked out of the court and left it there and so I've had no contact and I've not attempted since then to make contact there was
00:31:15
this kind of little bit of me that fell in time when he's ready he will come looking for me for us to develop a
00:31:21
relationship um sadly that's not happened does he know who you are these days does
00:31:27
he know so I I think so I'm sure he does because he grew up in the same world that I grew
00:31:33
up in in southeast London um I don't know what part of the world he's living in right now I don't know what his life
00:31:38
is like what his relationships like whether he has children whether I'm a grandfather I have no idea and I'm
00:31:44
scared to even find out to be honest there's a bit of me that's really scared to find out that I miss so much it was a
00:31:53
painful it was a painful time during the years that I was in prison because I kept a
00:31:58
diary every day I'd write in that diary every other day I'd write in that diary a message to this son of mine that I'd
00:32:05
never met or had a relationship with just so that he knew when I got out that I hadn't completely
00:32:13
abandoned him physically yes I had no control over that but in my thoughts he was always there so I kept this diary in the hope that one day when I got out of prison I could present these Diaries and
00:32:24
he would be able to see throughout the 12 years that I was in prison that there were lots of mentions of his names and
00:32:30
what I was thinking and what I was feeling and the pain I was going through not being able to have a relationship with him and unfortunately I've not been
00:32:37
able to give him those Diaries they're in a lot locked box at my home at the moment
00:32:45
how has that been to deal with over the years honestly how's that what's what's that like I think I I that moment where
00:32:54
I walked out of the court and made the decision that if they don't want anything to do with me I'm not going to
00:33:00
force the situation I'm not gonna get involved it might have been the wrong decision at the time it might have
00:33:05
been the right decision at the time what I didn't want to do is create a scenario where more pain was caused and I think
00:33:12
forcing he would have been 12 years old at the time forcing a 12 year old to have a relationship with a dad that he was told was not a good person not a
00:33:24
nice person didn't love you would be the wrong thing to do and I came to terms with that there and then and accepted
00:33:31
that if I was ever going to have a relationship with this son of mine that I'd never really got to know it would
00:33:37
have to be on his terms and not my term and unfortunately those terms as far as I know have never materialized I kind of accepted it I kind of as sad as it is
00:33:48
and as much as I would advocate for any parent and the funny thing is I will stand and say what are you talking about
00:33:53
go and meet your son or your daughter it doesn't matter that you think they don't want to see you it's your responsibility
00:33:59
I've just not been able to bring myself to do what I would tell other of people to do because I'm scared scared of maybe
00:34:08
being rejected you know we all know what that might be like going and meeting this man and as you say he will know who
00:34:14
I am he will know what I do and the success that I've made of My Life um but for him not to to reach out to me maybe it's because he still doesn't want
00:34:28
to know who his dad is sometimes it's as you've clearly have is to have empathy for their situation
00:34:35
that's clearly what you've demonstrated is you know you don't you don't know I guess what
00:34:41
he's going through or dealing with but you do know that if he did want to reach out then he's probably clear on the
00:34:48
channels of doing doing that I think so and there's a bit of me that also thinks maybe he's scared maybe he's
00:34:55
scared that coming to me now would be too hard a thing I mean it's quite a dilemma isn't it both of us at both ends probably desperately want to rekindle
00:35:08
this relationship and for me to introduce him to his brother and sister you know my kids
00:35:15
um and I think about it on and off I I do think about it I do think about how nice that would be how lovely that would be and you see other people make um make those things work
00:35:28
but fear and being scared I don't know you know as tough as I am in the world that I work in when it comes to those
00:35:35
kind of emotional feelings um I think it would be quite challenging it is challenging hence I've I've not
00:35:42
taken the plunge I think so two months after his birth that's the day that the police kick in your door in the middle of the night can you take me to that to that moment that day waking up in the middle of the
00:36:01
night with these men stood above you with guns early hours of the morning I'm I'm in bed and I'm asleep and I heard a
00:36:08
commotion for five o'clock in the morning and thought it was actually my best mate and
00:36:13
his brother who often had arguments and started to walk down the stairs in my boxer shorts teacher
00:36:19
um and then I saw men in balaclavas pointing guns at me telling me to stand still not moving really loud voices or
00:36:27
there shoot me um um I saw my brother my my best friend's brother being taken out of the flat at that moment um handcuffed going backwards and my
00:36:40
flat mate had already been moved out and then I was told to come downstairs I was told to lay on the floor they put plastic handcuffs on my hands behind my
00:36:51
back um all the time sort of shouting and threatening to shoot me if I moved asking me whether there was anybody else
00:36:58
in my flat um I didn't at that point really realize that they were the police because there
00:37:04
was no police stop like you're doing the movies it was just guys pointing guns screaming and shouting I was
00:37:11
disorientated and I was taken out of my flat and it was only at that point I realized they were police because there
00:37:18
were other uniformed officers these guys weren't uniformed officers I think they've gone to the s17 squad or some of
00:37:24
the Firearms special squad or something um so it's only when I got out onto the landing outside of my flat and was
00:37:31
dragged down the stairs that I first realized that they were the police and at that point I saw other tenants who
00:37:37
were living in that Hostel at the time also sort of face down on the floor and as we speak about it I remember one of
00:37:44
my flatmates almost looking up to me with these eyes as the police were kind of knelt on his back and you kind of you
00:37:51
kind of never forget those images they're kind of images that stick with you at those very moments and I was
00:37:56
taken out of the flat and um and it was at that point that police officers identified themselves told me I was
00:38:02
being arrested for serious offenses and then I was put in the back of a police van um and it was at that moment you know on
00:38:09
reflection at the time it was terrifying it was horrible it was it was wrong and even though I was involved in crime
00:38:15
there was nothing that warranted armed police come into my property and arrested me well at least I didn't think
00:38:20
so anyway but when I was in the back of that police van at that very moment and I was in the back of the van with my
00:38:26
best friend Michael Andy's brother police officers opened the van and they called Michael's name and they removed him from the van and they called his brother's name and they removed him from
00:38:39
the van and there was something really strange about that because there was 12 13 people arrested in that flat at that
00:38:44
very time they were all being bundled into different Vans but at that very moment I was on my own
00:38:51
and I was on my own for the next 12 years from that very moment onwards and there was something very indicative about
00:38:57
what happened there to isolate me into something that I I a crime that I didn't commit and it started at that very moment as far as I'm concerned how long did they interrogate you for
00:39:10
and when did you find out the crime that they were trying to sort of place you against so you get
00:39:16
taken I was taken in this kind of all the Vans and the police um taken to police stations in and around the Surrey Canterbury
00:39:26
um Caterham area and I was interrogated for two or three days it was you know after they'd taken
00:39:32
my property and I was um I met a duty solicitor who came in to one of the police cells that I was held in who told me that I was being um
00:39:43
I'd been arrested for aggravated burglary and other serious offenses but hadn't told me at that point that there was a murder a series of aggravated robberies involved
00:39:55
so it was only during the interrogation three days three days so it was on the 20th 22nd of December that I was
00:40:03
arrested so on the 22nd of December I was interrogate the 23rd of December the 24th of December I was charged so it was only during those interrogations with
00:40:13
these police officers that I discovered that I was being accused of a murder and
00:40:18
a series of aggravated robberies that were in relation to crimes that had been committed around the M25 area there was a huge amount of publicity at the time but I was unaware of that publicity
00:40:30
because I wasn't a kid that paid any attention to the news or had any interest in what was going on in the
00:40:36
newspapers but at the time you know the story of the m253 gang was on the front page of of every National newspaper rewards were being offered for the arrest of these killers these monsters
00:40:48
as as the media were describing this gang but I was completely oblivious to any of that and only found out during that interrogation that I was being accused of murder not knowing it was
00:41:00
anything to do with that particular crime and and the serious about a robberies you know I watch a lot of
00:41:05
these police interrogation videos and I always you can't help but wonder what you would do in that situation if you
00:41:12
are innocent what you would say how you would be if you're triple guessing your own body language or
00:41:18
but in those interrogations when you find out what the crime is and you realize you have no this isn't me so I I
00:41:24
didn't do this I wasn't there what are you what are you thinking and feeling are you feeling that you're going to be out and they're going to they've got the wrong guy and they're
00:41:30
gonna realize or are you are you terrified I think it's a combination of both you try to hide I tried to hide my
00:41:37
fear and I think anybody would when you come from it goes back to that environment that I grew up in and my
00:41:43
kind of experience is if you like with the police and you know people who are constantly in your face kind of thing
00:41:49
and I think during the interrogation there was a lot of fear I was scared um but at the same time I was cocky I was a teenager I was kind of almost for the
00:42:01
first time in my life standing up for myself I mean you know standing up for myself in a fight is one thing against my peers or people
00:42:12
standing up against the authority um or authorities like police officers is a completely different mindset but during those interrogations during those
00:42:23
interviews with the police where they started to tell me that I'd killed somebody tell me that I was involved in these crimes and that people were saying
00:42:35
that I was involved in these crimes that I knew I was not involved in it allowed me to be a little bit cocky [ __ ] is the
00:42:42
only way of describing it where I didn't shut up and do a no commenting it's like no what are you talking about I I didn't
00:42:48
do that no I wasn't there that's a lie so I was defending myself and standing up for myself from the very beginning
00:42:55
and I think I think that that created a situation where the police themselves were having to to make my life harder more difficult in that
00:43:09
interview room because I I wasn't I wouldn't say roll over but I wasn't accepting what they were
00:43:16
telling me I should accept and that's not me saying that the police were trying to get me to confess for crimes that I didn't commit it was more about
00:43:23
them asserting their Authority and telling this little brown boy with dreadlocks who couldn't you know
00:43:30
articulate himself like I can with you right now that he was a murderer that he was a um a bad person who'd done bad
00:43:37
things and we've got you and we're going to lock you up for the rest of your life that's what I was experiencing so it was
00:43:43
a terrifying experience and I was scared and I was on my own and I wasn't being supported by the solicitor at the time
00:43:51
but equally at that moment during that time something started to grow in me that made me become the person that I am today
00:44:03
what is that thing that started to grow in you hope and resilience and determination and
00:44:12
this ability not to allow someone else to dictate who you are what you're going to become what you should do what you shouldn't do it's as if they were plant in seeds
00:44:27
within me my physical body and in my mind that would grow over the next few months
00:44:35
and years that I was wrongfully imprisoned convicted of a murder and these crimes I hadn't committed I didn't
00:44:41
realize it at the time but on reflection I realized in those moments where I'd always been a follower followed my friends followed the environment that I was in got involved
00:44:52
in things that if you'd asked me to do it on my own I would never have done it because I'd been too scared to do it you
00:44:57
know burglar house on my own you're joking I couldn't do something like that but when my mates were doing it yeah I'd follow and get involved when we were
00:45:03
going in shops together and shoplifting I get involved asking me to do it on my own and I'd be quite scared to do it
00:45:09
and so for the first time in those interrogations and during the early Roman period
00:45:16
I became I would say a a young man and that's where the seeds of a young man for me started to grow when I was put in a predicament where there was no way out
00:45:27
apart from drawing Within Myself the strength that I needed to get help and for context the crime that you were being accused of what what exactly was that crime
00:45:40
so there was a murder where a elderly man was attacked with his boyfriend in a field and during the course of that attack he died of a heart attack having suffered a beat in from this gang of
00:45:53
three men the same three men that were involved in that attack that hijacking of a car where the car was hijacked by three men the man was beaten the same
00:46:05
three men then turned up at the property of some wealthy people in Surrey broke into their home tied up the occupants attacked and stabbed one of the
00:46:17
occupants and then they fled that crime in the cars from that property and went to a
00:46:25
third scene all in one night all over the 15th 16th of December 1988 they then went to another crime scene broke into
00:46:33
the property of um two occupants and tied up those occupants and fled with their property
00:46:39
so those were the free crimes murder attempted murder the stabbing and the aggravated robbery and then the third aggravated robbery at the final scene so all of those crimes is what I
00:46:52
was being accused of being involved in as your Center sentencing in so that the case approached were you hopeful were you hopeful that you were going to be found not guilty and be able to walk it
00:47:04
wasn't Steve about whether I was hopeful or or um you know what I felt it was about the
00:47:11
evidence it was about the information that was available to everybody that was involved in this case and by that I mean
00:47:17
me my co-defendants and the lawyers that were defending and Prosecuting what was
00:47:22
available through the victims of the crimes and you know just before and it's important to mention just before I was arrested and we talked about or I talked about the headlines that were in the
00:47:33
newspapers that I was not privy to at the time there were calls for the the police to arrest the two white men and
00:47:40
one black man that were responsible for these crimes and those detailed descriptions of the perpetrators who
00:47:46
were involved in the murder in the series of robberies came from the victims of these crimes not just one
00:47:52
victim at one scene but the crimes I just described at three different locations each of the victims at those
00:47:58
scenes described two white men and a black man one victim went so far as to say one of the white
00:48:05
men had blue eyes and fair hair because they saw that through the balaclava that they were wearing and they were up close
00:48:10
this is not fleeting sort of CSI kind of identifications where you can say out where they may have made a mistake all three victims have three completely separate crimes had given descriptions
00:48:20
to the police which were then relayed in the newspapers the news the world front page you know I came face to face with
00:48:27
the kill for kicks gangs that were the kind of headlines as Witnesses saw the men attempting to burn the cars from one of the robberies the two white men standing by the car terrify me so I
00:48:39
called the police you know these were Witnesses outside of the victims who identified
00:48:45
white men so the fact that myself Brown guy brown eyes dreadlocks my best mate black guy brown eyes dreadlocks and my third co-defendant who was arrested
00:48:55
slightly later than I was African black guy none of us fitted the descriptions that
00:49:02
the victims and the witnesses knew were responsible for these crimes yeah I was charged I was tried I stood in the dock when the
00:49:12
victims came into court looked at me and my co-defendants who still had these dreadlocks and I'd had these dreadlocks for years looked at us in the dark and knew must have known that we were
00:49:26
not responsible for the crimes that were perpetrated against them and yet when they told the jury that the descriptions of the men were
00:49:40
too white and one black their conviction was not as it should have been and by that I would argue that the police started to undermine their story
00:49:51
to secure the convictions that they needed to secure so when I talk about and you asked the question and was I
00:49:57
hopeful at this point that you know things would be um successful at the trial I should
00:50:04
never have been charged let alone held on remind in a prison within a prison in Brixton for 18 months and let alone
00:50:12
dragged into the dock to face these charges when everybody involved in the case knew we could not and did not
00:50:19
commit these crimes so yes I was confident when we were in the dark that the 12 men and women that would judge us would conclude that this is a racist
00:50:34
unjust trial and they would be on our side but they weren't they convicted us and I was destined to spend the rest of my life in prison for the crimes I didn't commit
00:50:45
that moment when you hear the verdict what what happens in your mind what how did what's that moment like it's hard to reflect back I know that being a young volatile man I was even though I'd
00:50:58
learned some self-control and discipline because I practice yoga in those 18 months of being banged up in a Cell for 23 hours a day that kept me going and practicing Taekwondo and doing in cell
00:51:11
press-ups and all that so as well as physically preparing my body physically to withstand the onslaught of the trial
00:51:19
um when I was in that dark I think I think again and I talk about those seeds that were planted in me during
00:51:27
that interrogation time and what I discovered during the 18 months that I was in this prison within a prison I
00:51:33
think when that verdict came in um as well as exploding and screaming and shouting and my parents family and supporters were angry
00:51:45
I just want you to fight everything and everyone for what was happening to me I'd already put up a lot of resistance
00:51:52
but there was a little [ __ ] that made me believe that it just couldn't happen they couldn't convince me to send me to prison for crimes I didn't commit of such a serious nature
00:52:04
um so as well as being volatile at that very moment I continue to be volatile for the next God knows how many years
00:52:10
and the only person that suffered was me I was the only person that suffered spending years in isolation segregation being beaten physically by prison guards who were not
00:52:21
responsible for my wrongful conviction but they were the authorities keeping me in prison even though that's their job
00:52:28
but I didn't recognize that at the time so when I heard that verdict it put a seed in me again that said nah I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let you do
00:52:40
this I'm not gonna sit back and suffer this why should I why should my family why should you get away with this no I'm
00:52:47
not going to allow that to happen and that became that seed that grew me in the years that followed and what was the the sentence I was sentenced to life imprisonment for
00:53:00
the murder I was sentenced to 15 years for the attempted murder I was sentenced to 12 years for the attempted murder aggravated robbery I
00:53:13
was sentenced to 12 years for the assault on the guy that was with the guy that died and another 12 years for the
00:53:23
final robbery total in life plus 56 years I think if my calculations are right but in reality my sentence was life never to be
00:53:34
released because when you get a life sentence if you maintain your innocence and you don't conform to the regime and jump through the Hoops of accepting guilt you don't get released
00:53:47
not when I was locked up in prison I think things may have changed now because people recognize that the system
00:53:53
gets things wrong and people have been released despite the fact they've continuously protested their innocence
00:53:59
many years after you know their convictions or or sentence has been served life since in this country can
00:54:06
mean anything from 12 Years to 30 years but I was destined to spend the rest of my natural life in prison for crimes I
00:54:13
didn't commit you know this um this podcast is streamed in prisons did they tell you
00:54:21
I have a lot of supporters in prison really I do uh actually I think people admire the work that I do having come
00:54:27
out of prison from that predicament and go on to try and advocate for prisons prisoners but not just people who but
00:54:34
also representing the families and the victims and everybody and anyone that's involved in this space because of the scars you
00:54:41
know seeing my physical stars but you know there's a lot of kind of emotion on internal scars that I carry from from
00:54:49
that time in prison so it's great to know that any prisoner listening to this story sitting in a Cell believing that they're innocent or even guilty but not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel
00:55:01
take it from me there is a [ __ ] light at the end of the tunnel if only you use your time constructively if you sit on
00:55:08
your bed sitting yourself look at the bars and don't do something to change the person that put you in prison
00:55:15
especially the guilty ones they're just going to end up back in prison or your destiny is gonna
00:55:22
fall flat if you have any Destiny use the time constructively that would be my argument to any guy in prison listening to this because you can you have at your
00:55:33
disposal well a lot of people in this world don't have a nice time [ __ ] me they have some time you know not just for reflection but to use it constructively I went to um I went to
00:55:46
one of the prisons that streams the podcast so we did a deal with Her Majesty's prison service where
00:55:51
um they have a screen in their cell and they can watch this podcast in these conversations and I got to go a couple
00:55:56
of weeks ago two weeks ago I think it is maybe three weeks ago and see meet the prisoners talk to them go into the side their cells they told me about the
00:56:03
different episodes they've been watching I get feedback as well from it on the episodes which is amazing but it was um
00:56:09
it was a really you're totally wrong what you said about the time thing I could see how
00:56:14
they have the thing that so much of you know in terms of time that we find in our very busy lives we're always trying
00:56:20
to find a couple more minutes more they were using their time in the most amazing sometimes incredibly inspiring ways I got handed business plans that I
00:56:27
literally have upstairs you know I saw crafts things they'd made out of soap that I couldn't believe were were
00:56:32
possible um but it but but at the same time there was um a real feeling that these these
00:56:39
young men were at a very important Crossroads and that's I think that's what sort of
00:56:45
stunned me into silence as I left was I could see Crossroads quite clearly and it goes
00:56:51
back to what you said at the start of this conversation where I felt with some of them that were that wanted to to
00:56:57
better themselves or at least told me they wanted to bet themselves they were lacking like role models in the context
00:57:02
back home or information on how to once they returned to the environment they'd come from how to create that life and that was the thing that I really struggled with I almost fought a
00:57:12
responsibility leaving there thinking how can what can I do to help that young kid who's handed me this business plan which is amazing because clearly he
00:57:18
spent so much time on it but I know that when he leaves the system he's going to fall back into an environment where
00:57:23
there isn't entrepreneurs and there isn't anybody to tell them how to start that business or whatever it might be
00:57:28
you know support my Foundation that's what you should yeah but but the important thing is during my
00:57:35
time inside I I didn't study the law but I got to know what the law was all about
00:57:40
because I needed to fight my wrongful convictions by understanding the law journalists were writing stories about
00:57:46
me being a monster the Sun newspaper was calling for hanging to be brought back and if they had their way I wouldn't be
00:57:51
sitting here talking to you today because I would have been hung strung up for a crime I didn't commit and then pardoned 10 15 years later when they
00:57:57
recognize my innocence fortunately I was shrewd enough and this would be my message to prisoners to be shrewd enough that I studied a correspondence
00:58:08
journalism course in prison because I knew I needed the media to tell you and other people on the outside world that I was innocent so I studied the media to
00:58:15
understand how the media worked so that I could plant stories in newspapers National newspapers challenging issues
00:58:23
to do with prison or disclosure of evidence or conviction so not specifically about my case although that
00:58:28
was my ultimate motive it was about understanding how journalists work and then using those journalists to get my
00:58:34
message out there and so that would be my argument that guy's giving you their giving you their kind of business plan
00:58:40
why give it to you why not take that business plan understand it themselves and do it for themselves yes they do
00:58:46
need somebody to offer them a space or a piece of opportunity but they need to do it for themselves and that's what I
00:58:52
learned during those early years or late years that I was in prison that you cannot rely on one person to dig you out
00:58:58
or or help you out of the situation you have to do it yourself which is why I say these seeds that were planted in me
00:59:04
from the beginning they grew into the resilience the determination you know hope which is you know
00:59:11
everyone has a Story Don't They about hope you know how we listen to other people it's
00:59:18
um it's a self-determination that you can only find when you when you discover yourself in a situation that you cannot
00:59:25
control you have no control over but you can control what you do for yourself giving you their business plan hoping that you will do something for them would be great but you can't do it for
00:59:36
everyone so they have to do it for themselves if I'd asked you then say a couple of
00:59:41
years into your um your sentence if you were going to spend the rest of your life in prison
00:59:47
what would you have said to me no I was never going to spend the rest of my life in prison for a crime I didn't commit I was not going to come out there in a
00:59:57
box I was not going to let them kill me and there have been and was occasions where
01:00:03
prison officers beat me so badly the easiest way to get through it would have been to die
01:00:11
um I was not going to spend the rest of my life in prison because I was going to fight for my freed initially I thought
01:00:19
it was the physical fight that was going to get me there confronting the prison office as fighting prisoners you know
01:00:25
getting involved in volatile violent situations was my way out that was really just me escaping the reality of the suffering that I was going through inflicting pain
01:00:37
on others being inflicted pain on me was a way of kind of dampening that pain that suffering it wasn't until I started to educate myself around the areas I
01:00:48
needed to educate myself and also grow up and become more wiser and listening to the wiser guys who had spent many
01:00:54
many years in prison and were telling me don't do it the way you're doing it you will not get out some high profile miscarriage of Justice individuals who
01:01:01
have been successful in their own campaigns were telling me you can't do it the way that you're doing it you need
01:01:08
to you know get the tools pens and paper I remember having my first tick tick typewriter you know tick tick tick in
01:01:15
myself that's what we're dealing with there was no internet there was no emails there was no mobile phones or anything like that I was doing it with
01:01:22
the raw materials you know tick tick tick made a spelling mistake how came the tip X I go through the tip X and sit
01:01:28
because I had time wait for it to [ __ ] dry and then I could take over it again and carry on writing the
01:01:34
document that I was writing so you can imagine one piece of paper I'm writing an application to European call 200
01:01:40
pages long can you imagine how long that took me on a bloody typewriter because there were no computers and no access to
01:01:46
anything but that typewriter I can't remember who I got that typewriter from or where it came from but I'm truly
01:01:52
grateful because not only did it give me the tool to fight my wrongful conviction
01:01:58
but it allowed me to understand myself and to learn from myself how to use new words how to articulate myself how to express myself
01:02:08
how to win an argument how to change a situation um and that's what I did in that time that I was and and we're talking seven eight years into my prison sentence now
01:02:22
so no I was never going to spend the rest of my life in prison because I was gonna fight for my freedom until I was freed and I did and I won one of the
01:02:33
things I read was was how one day you saw someone had taken their own life in one of the
01:02:39
cells um near yours you know the the burden of having to deal with you know being convicted for a crime you
01:02:50
didn't commit is one thing but then having have being exposed to these kind of things in a as a Young Man
01:02:56
these are images that I imagine don't ever sort of leave your leave your mind unfortunately
01:03:04
no um this was an elderly black guy been in prison probably 20 years for murder he was hoping that he would get released
01:03:15
and he got a letter um you know people ignored him he's the kind of guy that you kind of walked past
01:03:21
most of the time and you might give him a little bit of burn cigarettes for him to smoke or something but he's one of those guys that you kind of you know
01:03:27
he's there but he's not imposing or anything but he got that letter from the parole
01:03:32
board that denied him the next opportunity to be released and after 20 odd years in prison he knew
01:03:38
that he was destined to spend probably another five or ten years in prison um and he took his life
01:03:45
he hung himself and he killed himself it's not the first time that I saw somebody
01:03:52
die in fact I saved a guy's life when I was in one of the last prisons that I was in I became a gym orderly somebody that helped other people PE instructor you could say within prison
01:04:04
the only job I would do and so I would be let out of myself slightly earlier than most guys and I
01:04:11
was let out of myself doing my thing going down to the gymnasium and I was walking past a guy's cell and I saw his
01:04:19
legs dangling and I run into the cell and I grabbed his legs and I lifted him up and he was
01:04:25
you know doing as you do you you he was shaking and I managed to get him down didn't know what to do you know he didn't die he recovered I went to the
01:04:39
gym on my way back he was quite rude actually because I saved his life he wasn't grateful or
01:04:45
thankful um and it was an awkward one because I thought I saved this guy's life I did what anybody would have done
01:04:57
and the strange thing is he just got on with it he didn't nobody knew nobody knew what he'd attempted except me because I stopped
01:05:08
him from doing what he was doing I never found out why he attempted to to take his own life
01:05:14
but you live with those stories never having an answer and that's prison for you there are people in an horrific things and you know they've done horrific things and there are people in
01:05:26
there who shouldn't be there not because they're innocent simply because they did what they did to survive or to provide
01:05:31
for their family but you never know why you never get the real answers because some people are
01:05:37
just not prepared to share it what was this about the police paying some witnesses or
01:05:43
paying someone to to give false evidence that I that I was reading it was at the time that the
01:05:51
police were hunting this gang a reward put up five thousand pounds in 1988 a lot of money 20 000 pounds by The Daily Mail making the reward 25 000 pounds
01:06:05
and so the Theory and I say it's Theory because we've never been given the documents to
01:06:12
prove what we know is true so the theory is that one of the key Witnesses in my case who gave evidence against me that led to my convictions was one of my
01:06:23
ex-girlfriends alongside her was a white guy who was a suspect at one point the only person in the case with blue eyes and fair hair which fitted the description of the perpetrator but he
01:06:35
was a known police Informer and worked on other cases with the police so there was a conclusion that he
01:06:43
and this girlfriend of mine were paid that reward money to give Force evidence and that was part of the evidence that we presented to the European Court of Human Rights and they said that the
01:06:56
prosecution of the police and the Daily Mail need to disclose whether these Witnesses did get this money because if
01:07:03
they did it would explain their incentive to tell lies so the girlfriend for example just to put this into context when I was on remand and she was my alibi as well as a prosecution
01:07:15
witness so I was in bed making love with her on the night that these crimes were being committed I was in bed making love
01:07:22
with her at the very moment that the murder was being committed some 40 miles away from where I lived
01:07:29
despite that alibaya was still convicted so if you think the identification issue is
01:07:35
outrageous the fact that I was in bed with a girlfriend making love at the time the murder was committed she tells the police that the prosecution except that but then say it's a mystery how I
01:07:47
got to the scene of the crime there's no mystery I wasn't there she sent me a letter
01:07:53
when I was on remand in Brixton prison apologizing for the lies that she told and the lies that she told for the police was that I left her at 1
01:08:06
30 in the morning after we made love the murder had already been committed by 11 o'clock that night the first Robbie had
01:08:12
already been committed by half past 12 so even on her lies it still didn't allow for me to be a part of this gang and a part of these crimes so when she sent me this letter
01:08:24
Brixton prison I presented it to my defense the prosecution become aware of it and we believe that she was paid a reward to
01:08:35
say that she sent me that letter because she wanted to help me and it wasn't true
01:08:41
so the reward we believe was paid to her to tell lies for the police and to this
01:08:47
police Informer for him to tell lies and we still believe that today despite the fact that the prosecution using
01:08:54
public interest in community certificates are these kind of secret documents of still to this day never
01:09:01
disclosed who got that reward money I wrote to the Daily Mail and said you paid this money to these Witnesses who
01:09:08
have been told who have told lies you paid this money to a witness who was a key suspect and could be responsible for these crimes surely there is an onus and a responsibility on you the Daily Mail
01:09:19
to disclose this information and they never did to this day and did you ever write to her and ask
01:09:25
her if she received the money no I didn't know how to and I didn't I didn't feel that was that was necessary I I knew she lied she knew she
01:09:36
lied um we got when the rough Justice program was made they secretly recorded the guy
01:09:44
on their show admitted that he conspired with the police this was one of the key
01:09:49
pieces of new information that rough Justice broadcast but they secretly recorded this witness admitting to them
01:09:57
that he'd fabricated evidence for the police in the M25 case he didn't know that they were secretly recording that conversation for the program they were making about my case and so that in
01:10:10
itself became a key piece of evidence but I never from my conviction to this day had any
01:10:17
contact with the ex-girlfriend or that guy who we know told lies I read this other quite quite funny in some ways quite perverse in other ways
01:10:31
story about a chaplain you know what I'm gonna say yes I do bizarre things happen in prison with
01:10:37
bizarre people and we benefit from it I mean you can tell the story for those who want to hear this story is about a chaplain right so prison is a
01:10:51
place where you don't have conjugal visits I.E you know married men and women who are in prison are not entitled
01:10:57
to have any intimacy with their husband wife girlfriends when they're in prison that's just not how it works in this country in other countries it does but in this country it doesn't but there are
01:11:08
some people in prison including this chaplain in this particular prison who had sympathy for prisoners he had an
01:11:14
understanding that intimacy an opportunity for intimacy was limited and so um if and we prisoners knew this if you could get your loved one outside
01:11:27
girlfriend outside or someone you wanted to have sex with outside write the chaplain a letter to say to the chaplain
01:11:33
that you are thinking about dumping your boyfriend or you get that letter and take it to the chaplain and say I've just received this Dear John a Dear John
01:11:40
being a letter from a girlfriend or a loved one outside saying that they don't want anything more to do with you and
01:11:45
that you need a private visit a visit that is not in the visitings hall with everybody else but maybe in a you know
01:11:53
quieter place and so this chaplain was known for helping people out in this way so he would allow people to book this private visit where they would have their um their loved one come in their
01:12:05
girlfriends or their wives come in but what he had was a hole in the wall and what he did is he used to spy on
01:12:12
people who were in those private visits who took those opportunities to have a quick bit of sex and he was spying on
01:12:19
him and they discovered that he had this hole in the wall and was watching prisoners have sex with their wives or
01:12:25
girlfriends during these encounters now I would argue that most prisoners wouldn't care less because I was one of
01:12:33
those prisoners and after 10 years for the first time I was able to have intimacy to the point where I came in
01:12:40
you know nanoseconds kind of thing I know I detailed too much but the reality is is when you've been wanking for so many years and you've not had any intimacy it is a real hard thing not to
01:12:53
not come in seconds but but to rekindle those kind of relationships you know how
01:12:58
to become intimate with somebody when you've been deprived of that for so long how you and as I said at the beginning
01:13:04
of this you know I wasn't somebody who had people coming up on the visit me big hugs and Cuddles so it was a real real
01:13:10
challenge just one of the challenges that you face at the end of being in prison and there are many many more the
01:13:16
psychological as well as the the physical but I was privileged to be in one of those rooms on one of these
01:13:23
occasions would I have reported that chaplain that he was watching me no I wouldn't I would have used it to get
01:13:30
another visit but unfortunately somebody did grass on him and so he was removed from the prison system and that privilege that the prison officers didn't know about
01:13:41
stopped was it was he a priest or something was he a he was a priest who worked in the prison and how is he
01:13:46
getting getting these women in so this was one of your ex-girlfriends so he wasn't he wasn't smuggling I mean or anything like that so they would come
01:13:53
through the normal visiting channels but you would have approval from the priest or the chaplain to have this visit not
01:14:00
in the normal visiting Hall but in the chapel as a religious no it's not even religious but they have a chapel in prison where people can go and they can practice their religions but they would
01:14:11
have rooms in there um you know it might be his office in on this occasion it was like a communal
01:14:16
area that the chaplains see and people coming in to visit him on official visit would sit down and have a cup of tea and
01:14:22
whatever I was in the room with my kind of pen pal girlfriend if you like at the time um I'm going to give you the graphic detail because it's important so you you know we're kind of doing it we're kind
01:14:34
of like I'm kind of going at it that no no second time and he walked into the room
01:14:40
um as I was kind of mid flow if you like and picked up the tea and biscuits or he
01:14:45
dropped off or picked up I can't remember if we dropped off the tea and biscuits but he didn't bat an eyelid he literally just came into the room we
01:14:52
were kind of about to kind of react in a way but we didn't have any time he just literally came in picked up the tray or
01:14:58
dropped off the tray and just walked straight back out so he was well aware that anybody he agreed to
01:15:07
give one of those visits it would be an opportunity and I thought it was a great thing you know there are
01:15:12
not many people in prison who have sympathy for prisoners or would do something to allow them A Moment Like I
01:15:18
was allowed on on that occasion and after such a long time of no intimacy um I was grateful for it gutted that he lost his job
01:15:30
I'm sure people have a lot of mixed feelings about it so I haven't I won't comment on uh on my own views but I'm
01:15:36
sure people have a lot of different mixed opinions on on that and the kind of perverse Behavior quick one as you
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01:16:30
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my my pestering then give it a go and let me know how you get on what was the first Domino that fell that ultimately
01:17:18
led to your release I think it was the BBC rough Justice program so this is a program that used to exist on Prime Time BBC one and it was a program where journalists investigated potential
01:17:32
miscarriages of justice and I'd had journalists at this point already visit me in prison and as you rightly say when
01:17:38
I made those calls or spoke to them when I shouldn't have spoke to them I used to get punished for it because there was a policy you know where prisoners were not
01:17:45
allowed to talk to journalists and tell journalists and their stories not necessarily because they were victims of
01:17:51
a miscarriage of Justice it just wasn't allowed because it was something to protect victims but it was really when
01:17:57
after journalists have started to write stories about me so my tack my tactic if you like of understanding journalism
01:18:03
started to work I was getting journalists coming to meet me they were starting to question the safety of my question and my conviction or at least
01:18:09
writing stories about who I was you know 10 years on you know the person that was deemed a monster the person that was
01:18:16
supposed to be the leader of this M25 gang Etc but I was sitting on the toilet in my cell in Kingston prison and we had this little TV monitor mobile phones
01:18:27
didn't still exist at this point so there were TVs on these little kind of boxes and there was one circling away
01:18:33
circulating around the prison and it was um it was given to me that night because the BBC rough Justice program were about
01:18:40
to broadcast now a long investigation into my wrongful convictions that was the first Domino I think that was
01:18:47
where a credible platform like the BBC um with serious journalists who knew their stuff took these things serious started to question my conviction and
01:19:00
that led to another launch of other media Outlets taking an interest but the application I told you about that I
01:19:06
tapped on my type prior to European Court of Human Rights was I think the final straw because when
01:19:13
21 judges at the European Court of Human Rights unanimously concluded that I was
01:19:19
denied the right to a fair trial because the police had conspired with Witnesses
01:19:24
and suppressed evidence and there were questions about the identity of the true perpetrators when those 21 judges told
01:19:32
the British court system to re-look at my conviction that was the kind of final straw and I knew then that my convictions were going to be overturned
01:19:43
take me to the the moment that you found out that you were going to be released and what
01:19:49
the context that brought brought you to that moment well I've just talked about the the European Court decision so the
01:19:55
unanimous decision from the judge is that judgment came down my lawyers were kind of bouncing up and down saying this
01:20:01
is it this is the moment the appeal call and the Home Secretary I mean I've been on hunger strike and did many other
01:20:06
little stunts that were quite serious to to my own well-being and and health to try and
01:20:13
draw attention to my plight if only to get journalists to to tell other people what I was going through in the hope
01:20:19
that other people would support me and it worked they did and they made enough noise for the politicians and the system
01:20:27
to understand that there was this guy who'd been in prison for many years for a serious offense that he didn't commit
01:20:33
who was not giving up and it worked because even the prison guards were now slipping newspapers under my door with
01:20:39
the article and banging on my door and saying good luck you know a couple of years earlier they were
01:20:45
banging open my door and dragging me down the segregation block and giving me a kick in because in their eyes I was a
01:20:51
convicted guilty man who was just making trouble for the prison system and so by the time I
01:20:57
I got to the court of appeal so I taken from Kingston prison in Portsmouth brought to Pentonville prison in London met up with my co-defendant for the first time in many years Michael and the
01:21:08
other co-defendant we went into the appeal call and there was this three-week hearing in front of some
01:21:14
senior judges about the Rights and Wrongs of the evidence non-disclosure of evidence payment of rewards issue around
01:21:21
identification so the whole case just between my defense lawyer the prosecution then the judges was played
01:21:27
out almost like it was at the original trial only now there was far more information there was a European Court
01:21:33
decision there was a secret recording from the BBC rough Justice programs all this was being played out and there was
01:21:38
a lot of attention from journalists only this time on my side as opposed to you know writing that I'm a monster and everything so we went over the journalists and we're also concerned about our convictions
01:21:51
um but even on the last day of that hearing the judges were pretty cruel actually in that they didn't make a
01:21:56
decision there and then they knew they were going to push my conviction they knew as did the prosecutor they knew
01:22:02
that they couldn't withhold this conviction anymore but what they did is they reserved judgment and despite my
01:22:09
defense Barrister saying well you know you should be freeing these men at least on bow until that judgment is made they
01:22:15
didn't and so I was dragged back down to the courts and taken back to the prison where I waited for another
01:22:21
and this was in the year 2000 where I waited for another few months a few weeks sorry before I
01:22:29
got that knock on my cell door from the governor saying can you come down I've got something to tell you your case
01:22:34
decision is coming in tomorrow so we need to take you back down to London today and I walked um up those steps at the court of appeal on the very last day the judges quashed
01:22:45
my convictions made some derogatory remarks about the safety or non-safety of my convictions but it was over my
01:22:52
convictions were quashed and um at that moment it's hard to describe how I felt because I didn't feel anything I really didn't feel anything until I was taken back down the stairs
01:23:07
they did something that I was unable to do in all those years that I was in prison and that was open that the last
01:23:14
door that didn't have a handle on the inside so in all the years that I was in prison I never opened a door for myself so this last door down in the dungeons of the
01:23:27
court of appeal in central London was opened by prison officer for the last time and I knew that I was walking out
01:23:33
of that door didn't think about it at that very moment the normal reflection and realizing that that door that was being
01:23:40
open would be the last door that I wouldn't be able to open for myself and when I walked out of the
01:23:48
court of appeal door and I saw my sisters my mum and my supporters I I was able to fall into the arms of my younger sister who was my most my
01:24:01
biggest Advocate and cry for the very first time um and at that moment the the anger and the bitterness and the
01:24:13
the volatility in me and and everything that that got me through those 12 years almost fell off me onto the floor in those tears um
01:24:25
and that changed me almost instantly and that was probably it was the only time I'd cried in all those 12 years since I'd been wrongly
01:24:37
convicted it was also the first time where I probably relaxed you know the threat of
01:24:45
violence in prison is always there the dangers that come with being in prison um the lack of having anything and and all the the big things like not being able to open a door or make decisions
01:24:57
and choices for yourself all of that was lifted from me at that very moment where I I would argue I I'd one bet my freedom I fought so [ __ ] hard for my freedom at
01:25:08
that moment I'd want it my sister wanted my mum my dad my other sisters my campaigners the journalists all those people that came on my side my family were always there but all these other
01:25:20
people that were now on my side together we walked to the front of the court of appeal
01:25:25
and I'm waving my fist and I'm shouting you know I spent all of my 20s locked up
01:25:33
in maximum security prisons in Britain for crimes that I didn't commit the best years of my life I don't know what I
01:25:38
would have become Steve as you asked me at the beginning but what I do know is that in those 20 years I could have
01:25:44
become anything I I could have met a person and been offered an opportunity I could have been dead I could have been
01:25:50
anything but what I was was wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for 12 years where I couldn't love anyone couldn't kiss anyone couldn't hug anyone couldn't do the things that people were
01:26:02
doing in their twenties you know developing friendships relationships none of that was afforded to me so when
01:26:09
I walked down those steps and I shouted in the media because there was interest in in my convictions being overturned
01:26:16
that they'd stolen those years all of that was a release for what happened next in my life
01:26:23
did they ever say you were innocent the criminal justice system did they ever by quashing
01:26:29
my conviction they accepted that the evidence against me was unsafe as I said when the judge quashed my convictions and made comments
01:26:41
about no Declaration of Innocence or this is not a judgment of of Innocence well who puts them in a position to make those kind of decisions but it was typical of the kind of racist system
01:26:54
that I'd experienced we'd beaten the system we'd shown them that they'd locked up three black men for a crime and crimes they didn't commit and they just could not accept that and so their
01:27:06
final word at the appeal court to try and damage or limit the damage that he had done to
01:27:13
the criminal justice system was to say something that would make journalists question whether
01:27:19
these men should be released or shouldn't be released but the simple fact that the judges had reached the
01:27:25
conclusion that our convictions were unsafe the simple fact that they quash my convictions and released me from the
01:27:32
hell hole that I'd been in for the last 12 years was indicative that they knew because they'd already rejected my
01:27:38
appeal many years ago and for years on they wouldn't hear my appeal so there was a damage limitation
01:27:47
and if they really in my view if they really believe people are guilty in prison regardless of the information and evidence they don't release them you don't get out the court of appeal is one
01:27:59
of the hardest places to get your convictions overturned so when I walked out despite the judge's
01:28:07
reservations and the Court's reservations I was released an innocent man they recognized that the home office have a criteria where they only compensate people who
01:28:19
are innocent and I was compensated for the years that I was in prison the rules have changed now and they don't
01:28:26
compensate people have been wrongly convicted miscarriage of Justice victims um unless there is some insurmountable information where they have an
01:28:40
obligation and I don't quite know how it understands but it was indicative when the Home Secretary in my case the new
01:28:46
Home Secretary I think it was Jack straw at the time um agreed to compensate us ridiculous
01:28:53
amounts of money not as in wealthy they can never compensate me for a day of my life in prison let alone 12 years
01:29:01
but it was again another indication and a Vindication of our years of being wrongly imprisoned when I've read through all of your research I was wondering about this I was wondering if there was ever a a first of all
01:29:14
they were clear that they came out and said you're innocent which I think is really really important because it was
01:29:20
kind of ambiguous that the statement there's no ambiguity here my convictions were quash and I was freed as an innocent man judges comments it was an apology mate a judge's comments that
01:29:31
made it seem like they were trying not to well again it was that damage limitation
01:29:36
it was judges sort of saying you know these convictions are unsafe and we're releasing these men but we're not saying they're innocent yeah that bit which I
01:29:42
think is a bit of a [ __ ] thing to do if you just admit that the case is not just can't stand but that's the system
01:29:48
we work under yeah you know to confit three black men when the qurans were committed by two white and one black man that in itself is indicative of how
01:29:55
unfair our system is and that was another indication and an apology I was trying to figure out if there was an
01:30:00
apology from someone I got an apology about a year and a half ago from a senior police officer who I
01:30:07
interviewed on my podcast um for the Metropolitan Police and he that's the only apology I've ever had
01:30:12
I've never had an apology from the course I've never had an apology from the criminal justice system per se but I did get an apology it was more of a kind
01:30:19
of like raffle lovely beat you and I'm really sorry what happened to you so from that side of the world that was
01:30:25
probably the only time someone said sorry to me but I don't need sorries I don't want sorry I can't get me but my 12 years of 12 million sorrys it just
01:30:32
doesn't work for me and then the last point was compensation which was obviously they as you said they can't compensate they don't compensate it's a
01:30:39
policy they do not accommodate I mean even if they gave you a gazillion pound it doesn't compensate for taking time trust me but they gave you decent a
01:30:46
decent compensation as in like a big monetary number they give you a a I won't say the figure but they do give
01:30:52
you um you know tens of thousands of pounds okay which is um an amount that they deem to be depending on your circles Nancy if I was you and ended up in prison because of
01:31:06
all the loss they'd probably have to give you lots of money I probably wouldn't give you anything that you're worth or that you've yeah so it's
01:31:11
relative to it's relative to what your circumstance is and then they charge you for bed and board [ __ ] so I spent 12
01:31:17
years in prison for a crime I didn't commit and then out of my compensation they deduct bed and board bed and lodgings so I've
01:31:25
got my [ __ ] compensation they then talk so they give me a lump sum so let's say they give me a hundred thousand
01:31:30
pounds from that hundred thousand pounds they calculate how much it would have cost me to pay rent in a single room in
01:31:37
a flat and then they deduct it from your compensation psychological psychiatric any kind of
01:31:43
help that you need mentally or even physically or even your health that is deteriorated in those years in prison
01:31:48
they then put that within your compensation don't give you extra to go and get psychological or psychiatric
01:31:53
help which is something that I think anybody who's come out of prison wrongly convicted needs or even somebody who has
01:31:59
mental health issue before they're going because but that's not factored in I was very fortunate that I fell into another
01:32:05
institution the BBC and started a career there that I didn't have time to see a psychiatrist or a psychologist biggest
01:32:11
mistake I ever made because I think it would have done me good what are those scars you talk about psychological scars what are the what are those scars I I I think it's the things that we are
01:32:23
entitled to as human beings love emotion being able to be um open and honest with the person that you love and care about being able to to
01:32:35
talk to the person that you love and care about have open conversations and I struggle with that now and have done
01:32:43
because I have been so protective of what I say to people at fear that they will miss use that information to get me into trouble or
01:32:57
um just having a conversation with somebody that they turn that into something that it wasn't he said this to
01:33:03
me when I didn't so there has been this innate fear in me over the years I was in prison and then I first got out of prison and there's also the the the inabilities
01:33:14
to do things make choices for yourself that that are really challenging you know I remember when I started my
01:33:19
relationship not long after I got out of prison um and I just couldn't make a decision for myself I really struggled to make a
01:33:27
simple decisions for myself and felt like a child again turning to the person that I'm supposed to be developing a relationship with a girlfriend um and asking them things that they
01:33:41
laughed about at the beginning it was quite funny because they kind of got it that I'd been deprived of those
01:33:46
abilities for so long but then it becomes quite quite stressful quite challenging to be able
01:33:52
to stand there and sort of say you know well what did I do I don't know what to do because someone's always made those
01:33:58
decisions for me you know do I take them curlyworthy or the marathon you you know
01:34:03
you think it's simple stuff that when you've not been able to have a choice because there was only one thing on
01:34:10
offer I.E you know happy baked beans as opposed to Heinz baked beans and then all of a sudden you've got happy baked beans Heinz baked beans and all the other bloody baked beans or all the other coffees and you're used to one
01:34:21
being able to and I still struggle with that I know people do in life struggle with it but it's heightened when those
01:34:27
decisions are taken away and I liken it to you know the lockdown period you know people said to me oh God that lockdown
01:34:34
period just equivalent to being in prison you do have a handle on the inside of your bedroom door you can open
01:34:39
that door and walk out your bedroom door you do have a handle on the inside of your front door you can step outside in prison I would never be never able to do
01:34:47
that and neither are other prisoners and I'm not saying you should feel sorry for people like that it's just let's not compare things that are very different
01:34:53
and that's not me in the slightest Steve saying that people that struggle during
01:34:59
the lockdown period and even now as a result of covid and what it did to them financially Etc I'm not undermining that
01:35:06
one little bit but what I am saying is that those psychological challenges that I had to overcome now I'm out of prison
01:35:13
and also running parallel to my new developed career as a journalist somebody who never held a mobile phone until I come out of prison no no access to the internet I'm gonna use a computer
01:35:25
never held a microphone did lots of interviews with journalists but not on the other side and and bluffing my way
01:35:33
initially with all these esteemed journalists who'd spent their whole life trying to get to where I got to within
01:35:39
12 months of getting out of prison what does that say about the BBC I don't know what I did have was determination what I
01:35:48
did have was this ability to look the other man or woman in the eye who thought that I wasn't good enough and that I didn't have the skills or I didn't have the appearance because I
01:35:58
still had my dreadlocks brown skin brown eyes and dress very differently sounded very differently not only did I have my
01:36:04
Southeast London accent but I also had the prison slang that came with that Southeast London accent
01:36:11
when I became a reporter on the radio for today program where there are people who say you can only be on that program if you speak the queen's English I'm far from speaking to queen's English my
01:36:21
vocabulary has changed over the years but I was sitting alongside some people who were supportive but they had a
01:36:28
difference it might have been that they were gay and hide in their sexuality and so there was a kind of Kindred that we
01:36:35
didn't even know we had but for some reason they accepted me but as I say I was often sort of
01:36:41
referred to in the media at that time as this kind of convicted prisoner work in
01:36:47
in the BBC today program didn't matter to me and I was very lucky that Greg Dyke at the time was making big
01:36:53
statements about BBC being hideously white and he was very supportive of the fact that the BBC had had employed me um and that helped after this remarkable
01:37:05
career you've had following um following that day of your release in terms of your journalistic career
01:37:10
working at the BBC then going on in and having this Mega hit Netflix show that everybody loves and that is short and
01:37:17
produced in a very original way in terms of like empathy and such have we watched it yes I've watched it yeah and most of
01:37:24
my team have watched it I think pretty much all of them okay it's good and they've um were in a car last week
01:37:29
watching it on the way to uh maybe on the way back from the prison we're in we will get we were spending the day in and
01:37:35
Holly and my team was yeah she's Holly here today oh excuse me yeah she was very excited to say the least at us having this conversation today oh great
01:37:48
um you travel all over the world going to prisons meeting prisoners and seeing the conditions what have you and also
01:37:54
reflecting on your own experience what have you learned about the importance of hope you know one of the things I wanted to ask you was had you not take into
01:38:00
that typewriter and fought and not accepted the the the sentence would you still be sat there now knowing what you know about the system hope got me through prison hope when you
01:38:15
think about it here other people's stories right hear other people's evidence so there is an acronym for hope that we
01:38:29
can use hear other people's experiences and that's what I do that's what I do when I go around the world making my Netflix
01:38:40
story I don't judge people because I know what it's been like to be judged I hear other people's experience that's where my hope comes from that's what I
01:38:51
give to people so long before I discover that they are a serial killer in my Netflix show long before I hear about
01:38:59
the cruel things wicked things that they've been involved in or have experienced in their own lives in terms
01:39:05
of trauma I hear their stories I listen to what they have to say without judgment I may
01:39:12
judge them after I've discovered what they've done and I do on some occasions or our sexual offenses in particular
01:39:19
but I don't judge someone because I've been in that predicament where I've been judged so many times and people have
01:39:25
reached the conclusion of who I am and what I'm like long before they've even had a conversation with me or taken the
01:39:30
time to discover what I'm really like as opposed to what they read about me or what they think about me and so you know
01:39:36
that's one of the things that that I learned at the beginning when I started to shoot the Netflix series and going around the world in prison it wasn't an easy thing to do you know I spent all these years trying to get out of prison
01:39:48
as I've said many times so willing need to go back in and it you know do this for a television program but I decided to do it because I want to educate people when I was in the
01:40:00
isolation self strip naked bleeding and bruised nobody heard my voice I screamed
01:40:06
and I shouted through the pain that I was suffering nobody heard my voice when I was even sitting in my cell my prison
01:40:13
uniform one telling people I was innocent nobody heard my voice what I've been able to do in this show
01:40:18
is force people who watched the show to hear other people's voice that's not them questioning whether they're guilty or innocent whether what they did is good or bad it's just given a platform
01:40:31
in a secret world that we hear very little of we have all these mythical programs break in you know prison break
01:40:37
and and other you know Orange Is the New blacks we have these programs that kind of sensationalize or glorify what prison
01:40:43
could be like but the reality is sitting down with a man who's done some horrific things telling his story trying to
01:40:49
understand why they've done what they've done and then finding the balance between how you then rehabilitate somebody like that is it possible but
01:40:56
also from the victim's point of view how do you treat somebody once they've been
01:41:01
sent to prison for punishment should they continue to be punished in prison should they live in these inhumane
01:41:07
conditions where they're not fed or they're not provided with the basic human rights that we all are entitled to
01:41:13
whether you are a prisoner or not a prisoner and that includes the staff because people that go into these
01:41:19
environments to work um you know they don't deserve to be treated like sub-humans just because
01:41:26
they work in these environments but they are yeah I've got a ton of respect for them you know especially after visiting
01:41:31
that prison I I had a huge amount of admiration for the staff that worked there and what they they also
01:41:38
um go through and a lot of them had very from the ones that I spoke to very um Good Intentions as to why they'd
01:41:44
become come to work in the prison which in many respects reminded me of like many of the teachers I met when I
01:41:50
went undercover in a school and got to meet them in teachers in rough areas um but this this also led to your
01:41:57
foundation could you tell me what your what Your objective is with your foundation and what you're and why
01:42:04
I think it's it's simple I mean it came about simply because having been to so many prisons around the globe and have
01:42:10
been witnessed so much suffering that is unnecessary you you know regardless of what you think about prisoners and I
01:42:17
know there were lots of people out there who think well they don't deserve any better although surprisingly as a result my Netflix show a lot of people have
01:42:22
written to me from all over the globe saying oh my God I believe that they should be locked up and the key should
01:42:28
be thrown away by having watched your show I have a different perspective no one should be treated like that no one should be
01:42:34
etc etc so that in itself and all of the messages I get are so positive I really can't think of any messages that I've
01:42:41
had from people there are occasions of course but 99.9 of the messages that I get from people all over the globe ask me how they can help what they can do in my recent Moldova episode I interviewed
01:42:54
two guys one of them killed an elderly lady and a young lady and the other one killed a woman a police officer and I've
01:43:01
had an avalanche of messages from people asking to send them gifts because they talk about you know their older parents
01:43:08
having to look after them but they're going to die soon and then they and people ask and I'm thinking well there is humanity so that's what my Foundation
01:43:14
is about it's about Humanity it's about treating people rehumanizing so we have this strap line
01:43:20
rethink re-humanize and reintegrate and for me it's about the policy makers and decision makers but also businesses outside of these locations where these
01:43:33
prisons are getting involved to rethink what the purpose of prison is and what we can do to educate
01:43:39
or skill up train individuals that are in prison that are not being given these opportunities keys because there is no resource to provide these opportunities if you went along to
01:43:51
Charlton the other day you would have witnessed programs and projects that they're probably running with the prisoners that may provide an
01:43:58
opportunity if these guys take these opportunities to change their lives Steve Trust Me In many of the places
01:44:04
that I've been around the world they just do not exist people who have had traumatic lives that have led to them
01:44:10
ending up in prison doing the things that they do have no therapy or any help they are not afforded any education to
01:44:19
address their offending Behavior which means they are potentially going to commit more crime when they get out of
01:44:25
prison and I think we should care about that and we should try and do something about that what can you do okay a hungry
01:44:32
man can be an angry man so if I'm going into Papua New Guinea and there are prisoners who can't be fed surely there
01:44:38
is a sustainable way because they have the land and the in the prison surely there is a way that we can teach them to
01:44:44
grow tomatoes or potatoes and they can be self-sufficient so they can provide for themselves why can't a local
01:44:50
business do that why can't they the government do that so the foundation is about rethinking the policies in prison
01:44:57
how to re-humanize the way we treat prisoners I've seen some of the most horrific videos that you would ever imagine seeing and I could show you these videos that prisoners have sent me
01:45:10
of the murders that take place that they're filming on mobile phones I mean how dehumanizing and desensitizing is that for a prisoner to send me a WhatsApp
01:45:22
message of a video as they are killing someone in that very moment that is barbaric and I'm saying why why would another young man Like You video the
01:45:37
decapitating and the what they're doing to other young men for no other reason than they belong to another gang or because they did and I've seen quite a few of these videos
01:45:48
where riots were kicked off in certain places that I've been to and I've met these individuals and I'm thinking why
01:45:54
and it's simply because these young men have never been told that gang life violence is wrong and I mean that when I
01:46:02
say that because they don't have therapists or psychologists or NGO groups Charities working in these places
01:46:09
trying to address the issues that these guys have experienced and then it comes down to reintegration doesn't it you're going to let these guys who are prepared to kill in prison back out into society where they've been
01:46:25
traumatized by what they've witnessed and what I gathered in some of these videos for example is you know one guy's
01:46:30
filming it and three or four guys five guys are standing there you can see that they don't want to take part in what is
01:46:36
taking place but they do because if they don't they could become the next victim and that is really sad to see and you
01:46:43
can see it in their eyes you can see it in their Dominion so you can see them taking the weapon and inflicting a blow
01:46:48
in a way that you can see they don't really want to be inflicting that blow so I've seen these things
01:46:54
firsthand in these environments in these prisons around the world where they don't have the means to make a
01:47:01
difference to change things and so I set up the foundation off the back of the things that I witnessed in these prisons
01:47:07
with an intention to try and improve the opportunities for prisoners staff and the conditions in prison so for example I was in a prison quite recently where
01:47:21
they are trying to encourage prisoners to take up art but they don't have any resources they don't have any materials
01:47:27
to provide so I'm sort of saying okay if I can find somebody who's an artist who can donate this
01:47:35
material to this prison and then we take it a step further we use that art to create art therapy where some of these
01:47:41
guys who would not otherwise step into a therapeutic room could be encouraged to go in there to do what they do which is
01:47:48
pain but also address some of the traumatic experiences that they've been through or have witness that makes them the person that there are so there are ways as I've just explained that you can
01:47:59
make a a difference and the authorities want it you know I speak to the directors of these prisons who encourage
01:48:05
me to come back and get involved in the work that they're they're doing a pot of pain you know some of these prisons are
01:48:12
so broken a pot of paint will make a difference but you're also not just giving them the pot of paint what you're
01:48:17
doing is you're asking a decorating firm big decorating firm to take their skills
01:48:22
into a prison teach these guys to paint properly so there is an opportunity for them coming up to come and decorator now
01:48:27
that might not be everybody's ambition when you don't have anything inside a prison and that's what we're trying to
01:48:33
offer is opportunity Unity and the other version of Hope to some of these environments forgiveness is an interesting word because it there's many layers to forgiveness but when you look
01:48:45
back on your time in prison what happened to you and the people that conspired to put you there
01:48:51
some of them clearly very illegally is it possible to get to a place of forgiveness I don't forgive anybody who did what they did to me I never will never have
01:49:02
and have no intention of forgiving those people they don't deserve my forgiveness and I'm not a forgiving person in that
01:49:09
sense um and there's nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with that is there
01:49:15
there's nothing wrong with me not wanting to forgive someone um I can understand things but I can't understand why someone would tell a lie that destroys somebody else's
01:49:26
life deliberately in the way that they did mine so I have no intention in my heart or mind and that doesn't make me a bad or a wrong person I'm in my right not to forgive someone
01:49:39
for something that they did in the same way that you know someone who thinks they're in a solid relationship is
01:49:46
treated cheated on and they decide to break up and they can't find forgiveness for that person forgiveness doesn't stop you moving on forgiveness doesn't stop you becoming the person
01:49:57
that you have the potential to become forgiveness is a word actions in my book speak louder
01:50:06
than words to say I forgive you doesn't really mean I forgive you it might make you feel more comfortable and it might
01:50:13
help you release the burden of the guilt that you felt for the wrong that you've done
01:50:19
but for the person saying I forgive you for many it will help of course it will it will lift the guilt from them or lift the burden of them being strained by this hatred for somebody but
01:50:34
for me forgiveness is just a word and nobody who did took part in what happened to me give me back my twenties they can't give me back
01:50:47
the fact that I couldn't have sex for bloody 12 years even though I sneaked one in that Chapel but they can't give
01:50:53
me back the things that were taken from me because of what they'd done and so I have no intention of forgiving those people but that doesn't mean that I have any animosity towards them or that I am
01:51:05
bitter towards them or that I'm angry are you angry towards them at all I'm not I I I'm I'm not angry towards
01:51:14
them in the sense that I would want something bad or anything like that that's not what I can but of course I'm still angry about their role in what happened to me
01:51:27
the two police officers that interrogating me the questions that you asked me at the beginning you know the fact that they
01:51:33
fabricated evidence made up stories and and changed things to fit me into the crime rather than accept that the evidence was pointing away from me um it makes me angry to think that they
01:51:45
did that Steve and that they were prepared to do that to me but I'm not angry any any more
01:51:53
um took towards them in in a kind of way that disturbs how I should be thinking or behaving I don't give them the time of day when I'm sitting here and talking to you I'm talking to other people about my experience of course there is this
01:52:06
heat that I talk about that kind of warms my body my ears my mind because I'm revisiting some of the experiences that hurt me I'm revisiting some of those experiences that changed who I
01:52:20
should have been even though as you say the Silver Lining is I've gone on to lead a successful career maybe that's
01:52:27
not who I should have been maybe I should have been somebody else but I would never find out who that somebody
01:52:33
else could have been maybe in those 12 years I was in prison I discovered a love with my dad where hugging him and
01:52:39
kissing him on the cheek became natural instead of it becoming something I forced because I saw other people doing
01:52:45
that I had a question asked me which you just reminded me about from a guy called mogada they do this eraser test and it's
01:52:52
they asked people they said of the most traumatic experience you've been enter in your life of all the traumatic event
01:52:58
if you could press a button and erase it would you now if I put a button in front of you and said you press this button and it raises those 12 years
01:53:10
and it raises the the sentencing and all that day those people that storm through the door in the middle of the night and
01:53:15
arrested you would you press the button would I press the button that would erase who I am no because that's what it's doing it's not
01:53:27
a raising a a trauma is it is not erasing an experience it's a raising who who I am that's what you do when you press a
01:53:39
button like that you're raising the person you are and I'd never raise who who I am I'm proud of who I am
01:53:46
I'm pleased about what I do who I become the people that are in my life my mission what I've earned what I've lost
01:53:57
and to press that button I'd be erasing all of that and I I wouldn't do that even if it was to just erase that period um
01:54:08
because I am who I am because of my life experiences and the journey that I've been on and the people that I've met
01:54:13
along the way things that I've witnessed the things that I've learned um about others and about myself I have
01:54:20
this um this skill is how I'm gonna describe it right we all have a skill of some kind
01:54:26
yours is making money running businesses and having a brilliant podcast studio and a great team right
01:54:32
I learned a skill and I alluded to it earlier on where I read the character of men for so long in such an intimate way that it does put me in a position
01:54:44
of survival when I go into these prisons when I look a guy in the eye who's killed five ten people and I'm in a room
01:54:51
with him on my own or I'm interviewing him and his behavior is characteristics trust me when I say this in the years that I was imprisoned I
01:55:02
think I met every type of character man you could possibly meet you know because not every prisoner is the same there are
01:55:07
guys in there who are entrepreneurs and over millions of pounds but they killed their wife in a moment of Madness there
01:55:13
are guys in there who came from Council of States like me who got caught up in knife crime and violence and drugs so
01:55:19
there are all types of prisoners you know I've talked to various people who are fraudsters who run you know
01:55:25
successful businesses whether it's Wall Street or some new.com business I had a guy on my podcast the other day lost
01:55:31
billions of pounds John le Frey who who set up the first Nutella business um which is the one of the very first dot-coms before PayPal started and stuff so I had him on my Second Chance podcast
01:55:43
the other day multi-zillion is still a multi-zillionaire but he did end up in prison so you come across all types of
01:55:49
characters in prison and that allows me to do the work that I do in the environment that I work in at the moment
01:55:55
which is probably the most important piece of work that I've done in my whole journalistic career so I'm not going to raise anything that has given me the
01:56:02
tools to be the person I am love the way I love care the way I care and make the
01:56:09
difference that I want to make the work you've done the Netflix series you've produced um and the work you continue to do is incredibly important work because it's shining a light and giving as you've
01:56:21
said giving a voice to people that don't have that voice um it's incredibly entertain entertaining maybe to its detriment
01:56:28
because it becomes a bit binge-worthy but I would highly recommend anyone that hasn't seen it to go and watch it ASAP
01:56:35
on Netflix and I think uh you know everyone's always scrimmaging around trying to find a good Netflix series to
01:56:40
watch it's one of my very favorite and the team here are just obsessed with it absolutely obsessed with it um outside
01:56:45
of that your foundation is feels like it's there's a little bit of almost coincidence to me meeting you after all
01:56:52
the things I've described well that depends what comes with this guy exactly but I love I love the idea listen you're
01:56:58
a man who's successful right and you've taken some time out of your day to go into a prison to talk to guys you don't
01:57:04
even realize the impact that you probably made because these are guys that have probably never been in a space
01:57:10
like the space that you shared with them or heard somebody and I know you've got a bit of a backstory yourself which is
01:57:16
why Steve's coming on my podcast but you have a little bit of a backstory where you know you wasn't born with a silver spoon or a gold spoon in your mouth you
01:57:23
know I know I don't know your story and I don't want to know until you share it with me because I think that's the best way of learning something if you've got
01:57:29
a book I might be tempted to this or I can inform myself but I discover and and so you know it's great to hear that
01:57:36
you've taken the time to go into a prison to find out what that's like it is a secret world but it is a world that
01:57:42
holds people like you and me Brothers Sons you know husbands um lovers and potential for being all those things as well guys that are
01:57:54
dependent on drugs more importantly many prisoners suffer from mental health issues and those issues are not being addressed if the resources are not being put into those places to address those
01:58:05
issues so I admire the fact that you know you're not just watching Netflix and inside the world's toughest prisons and me getting stripped or threatened or
01:58:12
whatever but you're taking to timeout of your busy schedule as is your team to go into it because whatever your motive I
01:58:18
don't care what the motive is the fact that you've gone in there and learned something come away felt this burden on
01:58:24
your shoulder Goosebumps just because the description you know leaving there it was I I was I was I had a weird thing
01:58:30
say silent but I remember the day after posting to my team and just saying I need to do something about this but it was it was overwhelming I think is the
01:58:36
feeling that's a good way to describe it I was overwhelmed to the point of Silence because I you know for the
01:58:42
reasons I said earlier when I when when you asked me about my foundation and I say to you look this is what I'm trying to do what do you think about something
01:58:48
where people are trying to help people or the environment oh my God like I'm all for it I for whatever reason have a bias to
01:58:59
helping those that are struggling them the most and regardless of why they're struggling I when I went undercover in a
01:59:04
school in Liverpool I got a lot of flack because the kid that I warmed to and ultimately made a big donation to and provided you know an opportunity to was
01:59:11
the kid that was doing really badly and everyone's like well why didn't you help the people that are getting straight A's I took to this young kid called Stephen
01:59:17
who wanted to be successful didn't have a father was a like a in school was about to get kicked out always in the exclusion area and I remember looking on Twitter and seeing all this like oh why did he help the the the you know the kid
01:59:30
that's down at counted out that's so when I went to this prison for me as you've described the word Humanity um I saw past all of that stuff and it was just like a bun especially from
01:59:41
doing this podcast you learned that the the home life the the foundation the environment that people grow up in that puts them there that leads to them being there and that's what I see in these
01:59:51
people it was like you know I saw the potential and I saw the all the good stuff and all the the negative stuff
01:59:59
really doesn't matter to me it well I find it harder to see naturally so that's why I felt like this burden
02:00:04
because you know the kid that given me as bit as business plan I'm looking through this and going this is just amazing if he just had a different father if he just had a different mother
02:00:10
if he just grew up in the home that I grew up in It's A Better or For Worse he you know he I said to the kid I went you
02:00:16
this is a better business plan than I've ever done in my life and I've made hundreds of millions in business and this is a and I meant it I wasn't I was
02:00:22
like I've never made a business plan that is 97 pages long and that has all this so
02:00:29
um that was why I felt overwhelmed because it was almost I was scared at the loss of potential and talent and how
02:00:34
that would cause a generational loss in potential and talent and I wanted to do something about it not knowing what I can do about it I saw small things which
02:00:41
we can talk about but um you know as it relates to skills and upskilling people and really I didn't
02:00:46
feel like the prison was teaching them um they're teaching them some amazing things which blew me away but as it
02:00:51
relates to like I run a creative business right now if you could train five people to do this particular thing
02:00:57
I will hire them I don't care you know um and it was actually talking about video editing funnily enough they
02:01:02
weren't learning video editing and they said well we've not got anyone here that can teach the video editing we can't hire video editors fast enough in all my
02:01:09
companies it's a no-brainer isn't it I was saying to them please can you start teaching these people video editing and then I'll take them and they were like
02:01:15
would you take I'll say yes I'll we'll take them from the from the prison when they're released the last thing I want to talk to you
02:01:20
about is love because you found love shortly after leaving prison you're married
02:01:26
you have um two wonderful children with her what what does this person mean to you what has she done for your life through all of that Journey you've been on the psychological challenges you faced
02:01:39
um with coming back into society after your your sentence and the journey you've been on thereafter
02:01:45
I think my love story is is not after prison it actually started long before I actually went to prison because the woman that I married was a girlfriend before I got wrongfully
02:01:57
arrested convicted and imprisoned um you know we were both teenagers when we first met and
02:02:04
um at that point in her life she did have all the things that I didn't have ambition she was you know Edgar at
02:02:11
school she was destined to go to university she was learning different languages she went on holiday I hadn't
02:02:18
even left South East London you know my first time on a plane at 32 going to I think it was future Ventura I saw the waves splashing and thought it was sharks that's I was 32 years old that's
02:02:30
how naive I was so Nancy is her name and we had a very brief relationship just before I got locked up
02:02:41
and during the time that I was on remand she came to visit me in a horrible environment you know I was a category a prisoner which meant anybody come and visit me got strip search search to
02:02:52
visit me so she endured quite a lot at such a young age she stuck by me in that early period where everybody was telling
02:02:58
lies when I was convicted big decisions needed to be made obviously she needed to get on with the rest of her life I was destined to spend the rest of mine in in prison and that's exactly what
02:03:09
happened but I did have a picture one picture of her alongside my family on my wall whenever
02:03:17
I stayed in a Cell long enough to stick it up there and you know she was a teenager and she
02:03:22
remained a teenager in all those 12 years as did I you know although I was 32 when I got out and she was now in her
02:03:28
late 20s um I was still caught up in being 20 years old but given she was only one of a very few
02:03:38
people who didn't turn against me didn't tell lies stood firm not because she was a tough resilient person but because she
02:03:45
wasn't telling lies she wasn't persuaded she comes from a good family who obviously didn't want to have very much
02:03:51
to do with me now so when I came out of prison Steve there was a handful of people I wanted to say
02:03:56
thank you to and we talked about thank you and great so I arranged to meet with Nancy despite her
02:04:03
wanting to meet me and people in her family not wanting her to meet me because they thought I would just bring bad to her again because she went
02:04:09
through a real tough time and I don't ever know what that must have been like for her because she was interrogated by
02:04:14
the police as was many other people that were associated with me at the time and that must have been very traumatic for them themselves
02:04:20
but we agreed to meet in London Bridge where she was working at the time and we did meet and um when I saw her and she
02:04:27
saw me it was as if those 12 years didn't happen yet we both aged I'd matured um she was still the very focused determined person that she is and smart and clever and beautiful and
02:04:43
sexy and all the things that make you attracted to an individual and I tried to chatter up I think I tried to chat
02:04:50
her up again in the same way I tried to chat on when we were teenagers didn't quite work because after we'd spent some
02:04:56
time together and it was really interesting because I was her first love and although she'd gone on to live her
02:05:02
life and have relationships I don't think you ever lose your love for the first person you love I don't
02:05:09
know because I'd never been in love up until that point you know I never I'm 32 and I've never been in love
02:05:14
um after that brief meeting we said goodbye ask for a number like you do and um she wouldn't give me a number
02:05:25
I'm still just discovering how mobile phones work but anyway I I um answer a number she wouldn't give me her
02:05:31
number she had my number and then we were on London Bridge platform I was on one side
02:05:37
of the platform going one way she was on I was living in East London at the time and she was on the other platform going south London and then you know kind of
02:05:44
way even before the trains come and across the platforms this is genuine across the platforms my phone went ping
02:05:50
I opened my phone and it was a number so and she was standing there on her phone and she sent me her number
02:05:56
at that moment and um that's when we started another little bit of a relationship so we kind of had this Whirlwind you know I was still trying to live it up I was kind of
02:06:07
wanting to go clubs and do all the things that you do that you've missed out on or thought that you'd missed out on she'd had all that in a university
02:06:14
years um study in German and French at University and that's how our love began actually our relationship we started to see each
02:06:25
other spent more time as you come to spend more time at my flat and then we bought a house together
02:06:30
um and I fell in love I fell in love for the very first time at 32 years old I think I'd always been in love with her because she was so different to any other woman girl that I'd ever met in my
02:06:41
life um and by that I go back to that growing up in a council of state where no one
02:06:46
around me had any ambition girls or boys no parent had any ambition no word like
02:06:52
University existed in our all bit but she was the first person I'd met in my life
02:06:58
before I went to prison where university did mean something education did mean something aspirations of having a job
02:07:04
meant something to her and it was the same when I met her only this time I'd heard of those things I was aware of
02:07:09
those things and now it made sense why she was driven in that way so we started that relationship and and we started lived together and then she felt pregnant with my son
02:07:21
um and then we went to Jamaica got married and as I say she's probably the first and only woman I've ever loved we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a
02:07:34
question for the next guest um they don't know who they're leaving it for the question that's been left for you is
02:07:40
what is a mistake that you know you've made that you can fix but you haven't yet fixed
02:07:48
I think it's going back to the question of my son I think the mistake I made um was maybe walking out of that courtroom and
02:08:03
and and giving up on on what I should have done I think that might have been a mistake although I know it was the right decision at the time but the consequences of my actions
02:08:15
on that day has meant that I've never been able to discover anything about my son so if I
02:08:20
could correct that mistake that would be the one I I think to go back and see what would have come of that it would have been lovely to be able to to hand these Diaries over to my son although
02:08:30
now you can probably read my book so the Diaries probably are are worthless um but they are more to him so I think that would be the mistake I would go back and and correct
02:08:42
thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for everything you've created and I say that because there is a lot that you've created in your books
02:08:47
in the podcast and your Netflix shows and everything that came before that as a journalist um it's such an important work but I
02:08:54
know that it can't always be easy you even talked about the heat that you feel sometimes when you reflect on these really traumatic experiences I know it
02:09:01
can't be easy but the value that that it brings to Enlighten people who it wouldn't ever you know have the you know
02:09:08
that they're privileged enough to never end up in prison or to be in those environments but to just shine a light on that I think creates a huge amount of
02:09:15
empathy across the world as it does for me when I've watched your show and I've read your your book and I've had this conversation with you today
02:09:22
um and that empathy can only be a good thing and that's work that could not be more important so thank you so much and
02:09:28
thank you for an amazing conversation um thank you for the inspiration and I I'm fully behind you and your mission
02:09:33
because it's an incredibly important one thank you I do appreciate you saying that and I'll leave you with this
02:09:39
thought when we make mistakes in life it doesn't Define who who we can become and anybody could end up in prison you get and leave
02:09:50
me today you get into your car you pull out and before you know it you have an accident that was no fault of your own
02:09:56
but the person in the car that you crashed dies you end up going to prison for manslaughter that doesn't make you a
02:10:01
bad person doesn't make you guilty of something that you intend to do or anything like that so all I'm trying to say is that message is don't judge
02:10:08
somebody because of what they've done there are plenty of people that you can judge for what they've done but in my space you know criminal justice prisons
02:10:15
um not everybody in there is a bad person some people have just made mistakes and I think every time you make
02:10:20
a mistake whether you cheat on someone do what you shouldn't be doing um you shouldn't be punished for that
02:10:26
um in the way that some people are being punished around the globe in prison so thanks for having me on and I appreciate your being inspired by who I am and what
02:10:34
I do as I am you of course and I know lots of other people are because when I say I'm going to have a chat with this
02:10:39
guy Steve Bartlett on Diary here which I've listened to on numerous occasions it's like oh my God so you you you know
02:10:47
you're a successful guy but there are lots of people out there who are inspired what you do and you know that
02:10:52
because of the way you interact and the people that but we must never underestimate
02:10:58
um the position we're in to influence people to help other people amen amen thank you
02:11:04
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