00:00:00
What makes me good at my job is also what
makes me bad at life. This is maybe more than
00:00:06
you bargain for Louis do. Our next guest has
interviewed everyone. Amani Chicken. It's
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a cathedral of poor. That's a little offensive.
You're a very fascinating person. How do you
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connect with. I'm just so curious about what
takes someone to that place, why people do the things that they do.
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The question I get asked most often is, how
do you not get angry with some of these people,
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especially the ones who are sort of spewing
hate? If, if people see like your temperature wrestle intimacies from them, that's never
gonna go well. I think also there's some part
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we thinks maybe other person's got it figured
out, and I haven't. Your former wife said there's nothing real
about you, Jimmy Saville. He also said something
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about insincerity being your specialty. That's
good. I'm glad you brought that up, . I remember
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it vividly. First of all, I neglected my personal
life to focus on achieving professional success.
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The price was paid by those nearest and dearest
to me. When did you get that feedback? I saw my relationships
as a life support system for my kind of work
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self instead of the other way around saying
to my wife, well, this is what I do. I did a lot of great segments just by being available
at a moment's notice. I just think, oh, this
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isn't going well. So it became a bit of an
impas. Is it something that comes with a cost and
is it something you want to.
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Before this episode starts, I have a small
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00:01:48
It helps this channel more than you know,
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and enjoy this episode.
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Louie, you're a very fascinating person. Thank
you, . And I've, you know, I've, as I've read
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through your story, I read your autobiography
as well. I was trying to understand what I
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needed to understand about your earliest experiences
to really understand the man that you are today. Mm-hmm. . The interesting personality
you have and the trajectory you went and took
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in your life. So please enlighten me. What, what, what are
the most pertinent things that I need to know
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about your earliest years to understand you?
Oh my goodness. We could, I, I could, I spent two hours answering that question on its own.
I dunno how interesting it would be. I'll
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try and give you a brief answer. I like the
long answers. Oh, do you? Yeah. Well, first of all, my,
um, parents are my mom's British. My dad's
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American. They are both, um, in, in different
respects. So free thinkers, they, they grew
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up in the sixties and they embraced aspects
of the counterculture. They regarded their
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own parents as being in certain respects of
limited and cloistered. And, and, and so my mom joined, uh, VSO volunteer
service overseas to get experience of life
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in Africa. My dad joined the Peace Corps.
He would've been probably enlisted to serve
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in Vietnam, and he didn't wanna do that, so
he went to teach in Africa as well. And that's where they met. So I was raised, um, I was
born in Singapore where they were teaching.
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Uh, my brother was born in, in Uganda where,
um, where they were teaching at that time, my older brother, but then we, they settled
in London. And, and so growing up I was conscious
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of, of them as people who, who, who really
encouraged us to open our minds and maybe,
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you know, in, in it was sort 99% positive.
Like 1% I think. Like a lot of people, you know, people use
this term social justice warriors right? As a form of judgment about overly do gooding.
Like there there's an element of, I don't
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tend to use that term cuz I sort of, it's
become, it's been weaponized. But I suppose in a sense my parents were kind of social
justice warriors.
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Like they were very much encouraging me to
challenge or us to challenge racism where
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we saw it to challenge sexism, to be, uh,
open to new experiences, not to fall into
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easy judgements about other cultures and other
countries and other people. And, and, and,
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and I only say the 1% sometimes that can be
inflected with a little bit of a sense of superiority.
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And I talk a bit about that in my book, A
slight feeling that we weren't really like,
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quite like other people, you know, other people
were maybe not quite as smart or not quite
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as literary, you know? And I don't, I don't,
you know, I strive not to endorse whatever is in me. Remains in me of that I try to unpack
and eradicate, but nevertheless, that's the
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way. Looking back on it, that's something that
I see and pick up on. My dad's a writer, a novelist. My mom is a, you know, after teaching,
uh, my dad became a very successful literary
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novelist and travel writer. My mom went on
to become a radio producer and worked for the BBC World Service, which is, for those
who don't know, that's the service that broadcasts
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all over the world. And it's, it's a bit like Radio four, but
broadcast this tiny language. It's extraordinary
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institution. It sort of represents in some
ways the best of the bbc. But, um, so I was
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growing up sort of aware that we, you know,
we were a family that loved books and, and loved reading and, you know, we watched TV
and listened to pop music and did the normal
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things. But I think underneath it was a feeling that
to really count in life, um, you should be
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a literary writer. Like that was, that was.
Without me fully maybe acknowledging it that
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was underneath this thing that you should
really, I think still my dad probably feels
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that, like he's very supportive of me and
my TV making, but he's like, Lou, you thought, have you thought about writing another book?
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Lou, you, you, you know, you've got time,
you've got the talent. You can, I don't, I
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don't wanna push you into this, but Lou, you
know, you should think about writing a book. That's a great idea for a book. You know,
that kind of thing. Anyway, so that all of
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that was under underlying my attitude to life
than they sent me off to, um, school, primary
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school. I'm gonna have to, I mean, you wanted a long
answer. This is maybe more than you bargain for, I suppose alongside that is the, the
influence of friends and, and, and, you know,
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I can start the, and, and the, so the countervailing
impulses of growing up in the seventies and eighties in South London and being exposed
to funny, creative people and my friendship
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group. Which who, you know, met some of them had
gone on to work in civilian lives, as, you
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know, restaurateurs or, or, or, or you know,
music, other stuff. But, but Saliently were,
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uh, Adam Bucks and Joe Cornish and another
friend, a Sandler who were super creative. Adam and Joe went on to have their own TV
show, and I was conscious of falling in with
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a little group, Amelia of, of um, like-minded
kids who were very funny, really into movies,
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tv. And that was where I suppose I began to feel
that there was, well, you know, I don't wanna
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o in hindsight, it's tempting to, um, sort
of read back, read back what I do now into
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that. But I just know that, that, that friendship
group was very important to me and maybe counteracted some of the more, cuz I was academic.
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I was, I was, I did really well at school.
I feel I could just go on and on. Should I
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go? Should I keep going? I just listen here.
Cause the other part of it was that I was, um, I was quite an anxious child, so I, I
would, I would, I worried about everything
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and, uh, I, I would think about things that
were on the horizon. Like when I was five or six years old, I remember
fixating, you know, there were various things that came and went that really worried me.
But one was, um, the idea of mohole dancing,
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which was a big, I dunno if it's still like
in, in state primaries. Um, at that time,
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Every May holiday like you would do may pole
dancing. What is that, sorry. It's, it's a, it's, it's
a, it is an old English or maybe British tradition
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where there's a big pole. I think it's like
a fertility, right? , you knows to touch a wicker man about it. You know, it's an enormous
kind of ma a pole like maybe like, like a
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totem pole almost likes a 20 feet high and
then there's ribbons around it. And as children you would skip round it and
you would sort of braid the ribbons together
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to form nice patterns. And I remember seeing
them doing it in primary school and thinking like, that looks really hard and I'm gonna
have to do that next year and I dunno how
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I'm gonna do it. And just, I remember being
preoccupied with how am I gonna learn how to do that? I only mentioned that as an example. Like
there were other things that, just reading
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before I could read. I remember seeing my
older brother reading and think, I dunno how you do that. And just getting very worried
about it. So in general, my, I'm someone who
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is pre, I know everyone worries, but I just
feel as though that. feeling of worry and anxiety was quite a strong
background note. And sometimes I would control
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my anxiety, not consciously, but again looking
back by working hard, like by, by by sort
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of just sort of becoming almost like super
focused on academic work and um, and as a
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result I did very well in school. And um,
you know, like those people who look back
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and say like, well I was a fuck up in school. I was the opposite. Like I didn't always,
you know, I would get in trouble. Like, and
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sometimes I was regarded as, especially when
I was younger, 12, 13 as a disruptive element
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cuz I was also quite cheeky and sometimes
tried to com communicate and connect with people via teasing. Right. Which is, I don't
know if that's a common, it's quite a British
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thing in a way. It's certainly a big thing in my family was.
What's now called bans. Right. And sometimes
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I try and do bans with my teacher and then
it wouldn't go well. And so, but, but in general,
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which is confusing, like regarding being regarded
as a black sheep in class or a disruptive person in class. And then, um, but then also
getting in trouble.
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They said like, it's fine for you to mess
about and get in trouble and then you do the homework and you are fine, but you're a bad
influence on the other kids. I used to get
00:10:09
told that you're a bad influence on your,
I was like, that's not true at all. Like if
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anything, my friends were just as naughty
and were leading me astray, but nevertheless, because I could sort of go home and then become
sort of organized and focused on my work,
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I got a, I got for a brief period, I got labeled
as the troublemaker. Anyway, going through school, I, I sort of,
Sort the, the load stars for my, um, so sense
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of who I was and how I would progress in life,
such as it is. I mean, I was never that tactical, but as I went, as I went through school, I
thought, well, I'm, I'm pretty good academically.
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I guess I'll just do well in exams and stuff
and then see what happens. And meanwhile with my friends, we'd be seeing
movies. I got into rap music in the late eighties,
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and so we were dressed like a sort of hiphop
nerd. I was smoking quite a lot of weed, but
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still studying. This was sort of, again, age
16, 17, but it never really interfered with
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my, with my work. I went on to Oxford and
then having done well at Oxford, um, left
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university and, and at that point was like,
well, what happens now? That was when it felt like, okay, now I've
no longer really got a clear path. Does that
00:11:30
make sense? Yeah. You know, I think if you.
If you are, if you're academic, if you find
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academic work, not easy, but you find that
you do well at it, cuz it's not easy, but you apply yourself and you do well at, then
sometimes life can be a weird, um, bump in
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the road, like real life. It's something like, well, where are the exams?
Because I know I can do those, you know, what
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do I do now? So for a while I thought maybe
I would be like a professor or an academic or something, but then something in me told
me that wasn't quite right. So then the rest
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of life is another story. But I hope that
sort of answers your questions about those
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different, um, those different, uh, sort of
sources of, of how I, you know, whatever it's
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personality and interests. One of the things that really stood out to
me in that answer was your, your early relationship
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with work. You said you used to work hard
to kind of suppress or kind of distract yourself from the anxiety of life. Is that accurate?
Well, what it is, is, um, Well, I, I worried
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about things in general and um, you know,
one of those worries was homework or doing
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well in, in, in school. Another worry was getting on with my peer
group. But, uh, in so far as I can, I could
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control those sources of anxiety. Like, you
know, I work is actually relatively straightforward,
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like in terms of like, how do I get more,
you know, how do I attempt to relate to people
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better? Well, that's, that's kind of hard. It's like mysterious. But how do I do well
at these assignments I'm being given? Um,
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then you just sit down and do them, um, until
you get it right. And, and you know, a lot
00:13:18
of these things are. Aren't are subconscious.
Like I'm not thinking like, oh, how can I
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control my anxiety? But I would just find
that I, I I, if, if exams were coming up,
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I'd get super anxious. And, um, and I don't mean to pathologize it,
like I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety
00:13:36
disorder. I've just slightly worry prone.
And as it happens, I've become less worry prone as I've grown up. And it may be that
there were other things going on, you know,
00:13:45
in my family life, who knows. Um, in, in,
you know, my parents' marriage wasn't always
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happy. They subsequently divorced. There were other
things that probably were going on that were stressful, but for whatever reason I found
that, or without, almost without meaning to,
00:14:02
I, I would, I took my studies, uh, very seriously.
I have to sort of slightly check myself when
00:14:10
I say this cause I do, I'm also aware that
I've looked back at some of my reports having kind of got quite attached to this narrative
of myself.
00:14:18
A sort of super swat, right? Super studious.
And I've looked at some of my old report cards
00:14:24
and some of them are, are, especially when
I'm six or seven, sort of say, um, you know,
00:14:30
Louis's a pleasure to have in class, but I
sometimes it would be nice if he would let
00:14:35
other pupils speak. He, he, he enjoys the
sound of his own voice kind of thing, which
00:14:40
is very apropo for this podcast. Probably , you know, and like, so, so I, I,
I had a sort of rambunctious side and almost
00:14:48
in social settings, my mum tells a story essentially
in my book, but of, of how, when I was about
00:14:53
five or six, I would come home, I'd be really
sad, I'd be like, I don't know, I don't think I don't like school anymore. And she'd sort
of think, well, Louis's obviously not getting
00:15:02
on well at school. I need to talk to his teacher. And she went
into to class and um, and talked to the teachers
00:15:09
and said, do you understand Louis's very sensitive.
He's a very sensitive young man. As I said, I would've been maybe five or six, seven years
old. And the teachers were like, really? Yes,
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he's a very sensitive, like, just be mindful
that, you know, things you can say might hurt his feelings. Something like that. And they were like struggling
to recognize her description of me. And then
00:15:30
on the way out of class, she passed the classroom,
could see through one of the glass windows in the door, and I was running along the desk
tops or doing a dance on top of a desk. In
00:15:39
other words, like it was almost like in the
setting itself, I was a wild child and, and
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she running a muck. But also I had like this doubling like, then
I go home and be kind of be, be worrying about
00:15:51
small, which I think is probably still true
of me in some ways that I have a, um, I have that sort of disruptive trickster impulse
alongside certain, um, a certain sensitivity.
00:16:04
Is that defense mechanism or a a a way to,
I don't know, survive in a social setting
00:16:11
or is that the true you Are I just who I am
and I think, you know, I could say, oh, well I was a younger child and.
00:16:17
my parents found me funny and I, I wanted
to perform and I, I wanted my dad to, you
00:16:22
know, I wanted to get my, the approval of
my parents by being silly. But the fact is,
00:16:28
is who knows? Like, I just know that, you
know, things like your sense of humor or your
00:16:33
inclination to, to be cheeky. That's just
always been in me, you know? And, you know, I'm slightly wary of attempting
to, to sort of, um, unpick where that comes
00:16:46
from, because I just know that's, that's,
that's always been in. The relationship with work. I, I think even for myself, I, I learned
my relationship with work at a very young
00:16:54
age and I've, I think I developed quite an
unhealthy relationship with work at the expense of other things that matter in life.
00:16:59
Yeah, me too. I think I can relate to that.
And that's what I was trying to understand is like, when did you, where did your relationship
with work come from? On one hand I was guessing
00:17:08
maybe it's from his father who was very, you
know, insistent on being an intellectual. Is a, is success Louis or is it from the distraction
of, from anxiety and from the social thing
00:17:17
where you could be successful at exams? Cause you were good at that, so you double
down. I think it was all of the above. Like
00:17:23
my dad's got, both my parents have work ethics
that border on the sort of being over the
00:17:29
top. My dad, uh, would, you know, he's a,
he's a, as I said, he's a writer and at the
00:17:35
weekend, Like, he didn't really take weekends
off. Like certainly Saturdays he would often be
writing and Sunday mornings he was often writing
00:17:45
and, and he, he's an extra. I wanted to give
both my parents a shout out. See, I'm, my
00:17:51
parents were, um, were basically first generation
university educated, came from very much not
00:17:59
at the high table of life. And, and so for
my dad to, to sort of become a wealthy literary
00:18:09
writer, it's kind of an amazing thing that
he did, you know, in the world of, you know,
00:18:14
it's one thing to be a popular novelist, that's
hard anyway. To be a, a, a novelist or travel writer who's
extremely successful, hadn't, you know, sold
00:18:25
hundreds of thousands or millions of books
just, uh, without any leg up in life is an
00:18:32
amazing thing. And, um, I wonder if I've ever
told him that. I hope I have. Anyway, he'll
00:18:38
listen to this probably cuz he, he follows
my, he follows my career with interest.
00:18:44
So some of that I would've taken on board
just through osmosis of seeing that. Likewise,
00:18:50
um, my mom being super studious, going to
Oxford, she grew up in Tooting, you know,
00:18:56
and, and her, her sense of self belief, or
her sense of her own destiny, whatever it
00:19:02
was. And in her small, you know, peer group
of kids who were educated at a state school
00:19:09
and then through her own hard work and the
support of her teachers going to Oxford, you
00:19:14
know, in the sixties as a woman, that was
extremely unusual. So that, that was in the air. But in the end,
and, and my older brother, who was very studious.
00:19:23
And the other thing just to reflect on is
that I saw my brother as the more brilliant
00:19:28
child like he was to, to, the way I saw it
at the time was more effortlessly. Brilliant,
00:19:34
like sort of child prodigy material, you know? And I thought I was just kind of a sort of
irrelevant bit of after birth that, you know,
00:19:44
trailed around after him. And so when I noticed
that I was getting fairly good results, um,
00:19:50
when I sort of 11, 12, it didn't feel particularly
impressive. Like, it felt like, well, I guess
00:19:58
I could, I can do well if I work hard. It's not like I'm kind of brilliant like my
older brother. Um, but I think when I, you
00:20:08
know, again, in hindsight I think mainly what
I see is, um, is a sense that I just felt
00:20:15
like this was something I had to do. It wasn't
a choice. And I even later on when I was at university, I sometimes used to worry that,
um, I wonder if I'm missing out.
00:20:24
You know, people say it's the best years of
your life and you should be hang, you should be just. Going wild, having fun. And I did
a, you know, some of that, but I was also
00:20:34
conscious of like, maybe I'm missing out by
working, by studying too hard. That's what
00:20:40
I read in, into your story of university was
that I wrote, I actually wrote in my notes, worked his ass off at Oxford on the point
of affection.
00:20:49
This is also something I probably didn't learn
from my parents. If I'm honest. I still call my parents by their first names. Um, did they
encourage you to do that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I
00:20:58
just didn't, I didn't learn affection and
actually, you know, even growing up at 10 years old when one of my friends turned to
me and went, you're my best friend, my body
00:21:06
like, Because the, the idea that's I was someone's
best friend made me cringe. And I had this, I think I had this like emotional
intimacy affection issue growing up. Although I think being a best friend is something you
show, but don't say, yeah, , it's a bit creepy.
00:21:21
You're my best friend. Yeah. I remember feeling
stressed when a friend said that to me and,
00:21:27
and thinking, uh, because you then you feel
like, you say, oh, you are my best friend. And then it feels a bit inauthentic. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yes. You're like, do it. Don't
00:21:34
say it . You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
I love you. It didn't feel necessary to say
00:21:39
on Yeah, exactly. But, but what, what is,
what did you learn about affection at a young
00:21:46
age? I, I feel really lucky that my parents,
um, I feel as though they were, you know,
00:21:55
they, they worked hard. Like I had a working mom. My dad was, as I
say, had a huge. Drive to be successful, but
00:22:01
I, I always felt like the love that they had
for me was just taken as red. Like, I, I never
00:22:08
questioned it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. In a way that felt positive. And even though, you know, I think there's a tendency
or a temptation nowadays to look back and,
00:22:17
and be thinking about things that could have
been otherwise. And I think, you know, parts of that therapy
culture are really valid, but there's also
00:22:25
a sense in which, um, you can focus on negative
stuff. And I'm not sure at a certain point
00:22:33
how, how healthy or helpful it is. And, and,
and so for me, I, I never kind of questioned
00:22:41
like the love, the love that they, they had
for me. And I, it was, it was never the case that
I felt I was kind of, um, seeking their approval.
00:22:52
Like I remember friends at school saying,
well, my. . My parents say if I do well in
00:22:59
common entrance, they're gonna get me a watch.
And I remember thinking, that's quite weird,
00:23:04
you know, or my, my parents never, I never
felt like they needed to be I, that I was
00:23:10
in any sense doing like working hard for them. And if they took an interest, that was kind
of a bonus. But I didn't rush to show them
00:23:19
like I got all A's, or you know, I was, I
came first in all the exams or whatever. I
00:23:24
wouldn't really talk to them about it. Like
that was just something that I did for me. What about emotional expression? I think that's
something that we learn how to say, like,
00:23:33
I love you. And to hug and to be, to touch and, uh, cause
you said bounce, you said? Yeah, like I've
00:23:42
my. humor is really important. I say such
a kind of what though? Cause that's so dead.
00:23:48
It's cringe. I mean, have my kids voices in
my head. But, you know, humor is a very important
00:23:54
way of communicating. You know, humor is really,
I often think, you know, in terms of how I
00:24:00
see life, that's why worrying, I sound a bit
humorous, but anyway, how I see life is like,
00:24:07
humor is like the, the missing dimension in
terms of, it's almost, it can't really be
00:24:12
expressed. But my, uh, we, we shared a sense of humor
as, as a family. And so we would make each
00:24:18
other laugh. And so teasing was important.
Wouldn't, it'll, um, just not taking yourself
00:24:26
too seriously. My parents. Well, I would say,
um, like I respected them, I would've, I see
00:24:35
how my kids behave towards me and I'm that
classic thing of like, God, if I did that to my parents, that would not have gone well.
00:24:42
It's not that I think of them being especially
strict. I didn't feel they were at the time, but I wouldn't have dared to. Um, I, I don't
know, like there there was a sense of of of
00:24:54
them having boundaries that I would respect
and observe mean. They, they slight also,
00:25:00
they slightly cheated because we went to boarding
school, me and my brother, age 13.
00:25:05
So those difficult teenage years of sort of
13 to 18 or 13 to 17, they were part timing
00:25:12
it. And if mom and dad, if you're listening,
I'm sorry about, that's what it is, right? They, I mean it was weekly boarding and they
got me in the holidays, but other than that,
00:25:20
they were getting me half of Saturday and
Sunday. So I've got kids who are teenagers and. You
know that that's where like the, the, a lot
00:25:28
of the conflict kicks in. So, uh, when I look
back at how I related to my parents, there
00:25:35
were, there were times when, um, it felt like
they didn't get me or they were being too
00:25:42
hard on me, or the mixed messages because
they were sort of on one hand being free spirited
00:25:48
and saying like, if you wanna smoke some split
Louis, like, that's fine, just be careful you don't get caught, like, kind of thing.
00:25:55
Or other times you'd be like, how dare you,
you're going out there, you know, what, what are you doing? Like, it was like, well, which
part of the, are we being, are you being counter-cultural
00:26:04
kind of dudes or are you gonna be like Victorian
parents? Like, which is it? But in general,
00:26:09
um, I, I kind of, I kind of got it. I kind of got, I got, I kind of got the, um,
you know, that it was about, there was a foundation
00:26:17
of love and approval that was, you know, it
was unconditional. And, and, and I think if
00:26:23
I had anything, to sort of, and to sort of
reflect, reflect on approach them for, not
00:26:29
reproach, but sort of reflect on things that
in hindsight could have been different. It's the feeling that because they were work
focused and also because their relationship
00:26:39
was complicated, sometimes it felt like, um,
that me and my brother and I were slightly
00:26:48
a si a side effect. Like we weren't, and again,
I could spin that as a positive actually.
00:26:53
Like there was a sort of a level of us being
autonomous. You know, we had whatever the opposite helicopter
parents is. They, we, we slightly had that.
00:27:03
Like, they were like, okay, cool. You know,
you do, you, and, and, and, um, and I think
00:27:09
again, that can be, I, I kind of quite grateful
in some ways for that, but. You know, they
00:27:17
had their own thing going on. It reminds me
of something Tim Grover said, which I've repeated a few times. He says he used to train Michael Jordan and
uh, Kobe Bryant. And he, I spoke to him on
00:27:26
this podcast when we did the LA Run and he
said that sometimes an event that happens in our life or something that happens can
create our brilliance. Mm-hmm. , it can be
00:27:35
responsible. In the case of that kind of void
of independence your parents create, creates someone that works and that goes and gets
stuff and that's able to travel and be an
00:27:41
island. Um, but it also can create our dark side.
Mm-hmm. like the same event creates our brilliance, but also our dark side. So my question to
you is from that particular experience of
00:27:50
having that independence and feeling a bit
like you were a side thing in their lives,
00:27:56
what was then the, the dark side? I can see
the upside. I can, what's the upside? For me it felt like
the upside you were saying is the independence
00:28:04
you had. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's right.
Yeah. Yeah. That being the space to grow and become your own person and not feel that you're
especially kicking against. Anything but licensed
00:28:14
to follow your own interest. I think that's all positive. I think, um,
uh, what is the look? I think in general,
00:28:22
what, you know, I've said this and probably
someone else said it as well, like that, you know, what you think maybe your disability
is also your superpower. Exactly. And I think,
00:28:32
um, uh, I think that I, in, I think I've struggled
with intimacy sometimes. My, you know, and, and I think I, you know,
in terms of relationship building in, in my
00:28:53
private life, like it's a running joke between
me and my wife, like that she's extremely
00:29:01
sort of emotionally acute and that I'm slightly
the opposite, which is kinda weird when you
00:29:06
think about my job, which hinges on. Uh, supposedly
being sort of maybe emotionally or psychologically
00:29:13
perceptive, but it is almost as though, but
I see in my mum as well, like my mom having worked at the bbc, went into, um, therapy
and became a relationship counselor.
00:29:24
And it's funny because, um, my mum also finds
it difficult sometimes to, to fully inhabit
00:29:31
her, her emotions if it doesn't sound an odd
thing to say. And, and I, I'm gonna probably
00:29:37
regret saying that, but let's make it about
me. And I think with me, I think, um, yeah,
00:29:44
I don't always find intimacy easy. Like it's,
it, it, it's so, so, so I sort of, I, I experience
00:29:53
like a lot of the times my work. Is a license to be intimate without consequences.
Like to get to, to a bit like what you are
00:30:00
doing now. Like you talk to people, someone
in a prison, you know, who's been sentenced to 10 life sentences, he's like, okay, how
does that feel? So what is, what's life like?
00:30:10
And, and then kind of get getting or whatever
happens to be. All the work I've done in some sense is about
attempting to peel layers back and, and, and
00:30:18
see inside someone's psyche and then get on
a plane and fly off and go home and live my
00:30:24
normal life almost at a, a less intimate plane
of existence. And, um, so clearly, you know,
00:30:32
and the other joke I've made over the years
is like, oh, what makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life.
00:30:38
So, so for me it's, I think, and I think if
you ask my friends, they might say, you know,
00:30:45
be like, oh yeah. You know, Louis's a good
guy. I hope they would say that, but, but they'd also might say like, he's a little
bit absent. Like he's a little bit, um, I,
00:30:55
I don't feel I'm an especially attentive or
present friend and, and, and you know, I'm
00:31:02
not, you know, some people are really gifted
at friendship. Oh God. They like really get, they're there
and they think about and they make arrangements.
00:31:09
And I don't make really, I'm, I'm not very
good at social arrangements. All these sort of boring things that are the qualities that
are really the stuff of life. Like, um, just
00:31:20
getting together, reaching out. Are you okay? How's, it's been a while since I saw you.
I wanted to, let's meet up, let's, which in
00:31:27
general, this is a crush generalization, but
I think women are slightly better at than men. And I think that's been one of the many
gifts my wife has given me is actually involving
00:31:36
me in life. Like in a, just a normal. So neurotypical
way, whereas I, my tendency would be to sort
00:31:44
of disappear into my slightly in cell-like
shell, you know, of, of kind of in a metaphorical
00:31:52
shed of kind of counting. I, the joke in making my book is like, you
know, separating my collection of screws and
00:32:00
nails into their different jars. You know
what I mean? Like that for me is like that, you know, a lot of guys would be like, yeah,
that sounds like heaven to have two hours
00:32:07
to organize my shed, you know, and not, and
not realize that you're missing out on the tapestry of life.
00:32:13
So I plead guilty to whatever that is. Maybe
that's just being a man I can, I can relate
00:32:19
to. It's funny, I was having this conversation
yesterday with my friends where they were all saying, yeah, Steve doesn't like to socialize.
You know, I, I would rather sit upstairs for
00:32:27
seven days on my own working than, like, someone
said to me, this, you meet all these wonderful people in this podcast, and you, and it's
such a wasted opportunity that you don't text
00:32:36
me, Hey, let's go for a coffee. Yeah. And it's just outside of my nature.
My nature is to sit alone on my laptop and
00:32:41
work. Yeah. And so again, my girlfriend, my
partner is the opposite. Yeah. So she's dragging me. And so I really, I think it's quite a
common dynamic, you know, not bragging. Two
00:32:50
nights ago I was a GQ man of the year. I see. Thank you. Applause. Thank you. Um, uh, I
was one of the honorees and, um, so there
00:33:00
was a, like, there was a, a banquet, like
a, a posh dinner catered by Heston Blumenthal.
00:33:07
And, you know, stormy was gonna be there.
Mo Sal, Leah Williamson, the footballer. I
00:33:13
didn't get an invite. I must have. So it's
not just men now, it turns out, uh, extraordinary
00:33:19
list of like Andrew Garfield, an extraordinary
list of incredible people. And it wasn't even an awards bank. It wasn't
even like the bs, like where you sit and sit
00:33:31
through the speeches and then at half past
10, when you're starving, hungry and quite tired, you sit down, eat your food. This was
like a banquet. Banquet where you just sit
00:33:39
around and have a delicious meal and then
a few people pop up and say a few words between starter and the main course.
00:33:44
So it was like, and it wasn't even that, it
was like maybe a couple hundred people, like quite small as these things go. But the point
is, is before on the evening of, I was like,
00:33:54
I don't wanna go. And I said to, I knew I
had to go, but I said to Nancy, my wife, I
00:34:00
was like, I am not feeling this. She's like,
what is it? I said, I just, I can't. You know, I dunno,
I just feel really anxious. And she's like,
00:34:08
but you're not even giving a speech, are you?
You know, cuz sometimes it's that like, what if we win and I have to give a speech? Or,
or you're worrying about whether you're gonna
00:34:15
win. It's like, I knew I was an honoree and
I knew I wasn't gonna say any, I wasn't gonna have to give a speech.
00:34:21
And it was just the idea of, of having to
talk to people, like in a relatively high
00:34:27
wa high wattage setting. So you think like,
I don't wanna be wandering around like a blithering
00:34:34
idiot. So there's a sort of little stress
that sits alongside that. But there was no real reason on paper why I shouldn't have
been thinking, well this is gonna be amazing.
00:34:41
This is gonna be a night. I remember my whole
life, you know, and I attempted to adjust
00:34:46
my mindset, you know, using kind of Paul McKenna
like, or Uri like, you know, just visual.
00:34:51
Like, think about what this is. This is gonna
be, no one's expecting anything of you. This
00:34:56
is a chance to sit down with some amazing
people and have fun. But nevertheless, for the first kind of hour
I was there, just thinking. I kept just saying,
00:35:07
oh, and Nancy were like, what's the matter?
So I think that's just for what I think that's
00:35:12
in me. It's probably in a lot, a lot of people.
And, um, you just deal with it. But, you know,
00:35:18
why, why should that be the case? I, I don't
really know why. Is it something that comes with a cost and
is it something you want to change? Uh, if
00:35:26
you're being really honest, if I could dial
down, I think sometimes I think I have changed.
00:35:32
It actually is the first thing to say, because
there were times in my life where I said no to things just because I thought that's gonna
be a bit like, you know, I did the maple dancing
00:35:43
in the end and it went fine. I did learn, this will surprise you. But I
did learn how to read and, you know, despite
00:35:50
all the anxiety I had about doing that. And
so, and then as life went on, I think there were times when I said no to things, opportunities,
which probably just because the idea I, I
00:36:02
was asked to go on David Letterman's. Chat show. Um, when it was on cbs, this would've
been in around 2001. And I said, no, cuz I
00:36:12
thought that's just gonna make me anxious.
And looking back on it, I probably wish I'd
00:36:18
done that. Why would that, why would that
make you anxious? I find the chat show experience,
00:36:23
or, or not, especially, I mean, I've done
it a few times and as life goes on, it seems, you know, the idea of public speaking or,
you know, when I first got into tv, it, it
00:36:34
was like, why am I doing this? This is not me. Like, this is not what I was
cut out for. This is not something that I
00:36:41
aspired to do. And it sounds really, you know,
the whole notion of it feels, um, intimidating
00:36:49
and, and, and just a bad fit. And, and nevertheless,
I knew that, you know, just briefly, like
00:36:55
I was working magazines as a, um, as a journalist
in New York and, um, That's, I, I, I aspired
00:37:04
to be a, a TV writer, partly as a way of sort
of avoiding comparison with my dad.
00:37:11
Not directly, but I suppose that was in my
mind was like, I wanna write and be creative, but I know I'll never write books. You know,
I didn't feel like I wrote, when I wrote it
00:37:21
didn't feel, especially as though it came
as easily as I, as it should, you know, it's
00:37:27
hard when your dad, like, I relate to people
with famous parents, like, you know, people
00:37:33
like, you know Jacob Dylan? Yeah. Who's Bob Dylan's son. I dunno why I
reached for that comparison, but Jacob Dylan,
00:37:39
that track one headlight. Do you remember
that one? No. Okay. For people who know, they know , you know, it's a great track. It was
a huge international hit, but his dad's Bob
00:37:47
Dylan. That's a painful, maybe not painful,
but that's an extraordinary. Legacy to be born into and in a, in a related
way, like I was conscious of my dad, his name
00:37:57
as a writer really meant something. And that
it was, um, that if I was to attempt to write
00:38:05
something, it was gonna be a case of very
likely kind of falling short, at least in
00:38:11
my own mind. But the idea of writing in television
was, was less, I felt would set, would, wouldn't
00:38:17
invite the same comparisons. Plus, I used to watch TV and I like tv and
there was something about the democratic kind
00:38:25
of nature of television, in fact, that everyone
watches tv. I thought, well, that's a way of working in a medium that will connect with
people. And so it was in the mid nineties.
00:38:34
TV was, uh, in a kind of a mini golden age. The Simpsons was on, Seinfeld was on, friends,
was just about to come on the, there were
00:38:44
all these amazing. TV shows. Larry Sanders
was another one. Did you want to connect with
00:38:50
people you studied history at Oxford? Yeah.
And as someone that is, appears to be a bit of an introvert by nature from what you said
about your experiences.
00:38:56
I've got double. I have a duality where I'm
partly shy, introverted, and then partly outgoing
00:39:02
and extrovert. So with your writing and with
the TV writing was your, and with the magazine
00:39:08
writing, I know you did some stent at, um,
spy and was it Metro in Boston? Metro In San Jose. In San Jose. San Jose, California.
00:39:14
Was your, was your objective and the, the
thing that you found fulfillment in your work from, was that connecting with people? Um,
or was it just, I don't, I think I connected
00:39:23
with people not to sound, um, you know, oxymoronic
or whatever it is. No Tologist by connecting
00:39:31
with people, like, in other words, like I
always find. I do my best. Connecting sounds a bit weird.
Yeah. Face to face. I mean, maybe at one level,
00:39:40
but in the end I think I was just trying to
do good work and get approval. Like maybe more than connection, like just trying to
sort of get an A at work. Do you know what
00:39:49
I mean? Like, so I would feel good and think
like, oh, I got 10 outta 10 on my article or on my piece of writing my, my film review.
00:39:58
And then if people said to me that was really
good, that was like getting a, you know, like you got a good review or whatever. You know,
people, people say like, you, you did a good
00:40:07
job. Then it, it was maybe a way of, um, it
just a little, it's just a little, uh, spurt
00:40:15
of whatever that is. Like, just kind of pleasure,
you know, you just worthiness a worth, feeling
00:40:20
worth, you know? I don't want, I, I think I've got a healthy,
relatively healthy sense of self-esteem, but
00:40:27
nevertheless, I, I think I, I, I, I, whether
I require it, I enjoy. , you know, getting,
00:40:34
I got a, I got a series out at the moment.
This isn't my attempt to segue into the promotional portion of this interview, but nevertheless,
here we are.
00:40:42
I got a, um, I've got a series out at the
moment on iPlayer called Louis through interviews and we had one that went out a few days ago
where I interviewed Bear Grills an alumness
00:40:52
of this very podcast. I listened to your interview
with him, by the way. Thank you. In preparation
00:40:58
and, um, and when it went out, for whatever
reason, I think, cuz I thought it was a good
00:41:04
show and I hoped it would, I hoped it would
get a good reception. I was on. Um, I thought I'm gonna go on Twitter
and see what people were saying and it was
00:41:13
surprisingly quiet and then I felt a bit like,
um, okay, now I'm going to, I'll try at Louis
00:41:21
through, I'll try hashtag Bear Grill. I tried
a few different search terms and then I suddenly
00:41:28
I had a vision of my, you know, you get a
vision of yourself like, Oh, while I've become that grubby guy, kind of like, it's so of
sad.
00:41:35
It's like trying to fish for fish for approval
in the vast swamp of the Twitter verse, right.
00:41:43
Casting my line and nothing much is coming
back. And I thought, well, and then one that
00:41:48
came back, I looked at it and said, just watched
Louis through's interview with beg rules.
00:41:54
Wow. It was hella boring, . And I was like,
I just caught a boot And then I was like, well, that's what you
get. And by the way, it isn't boring. No,
00:42:04
it's not boring. The point I was trying to
get to was, um, then couple days later I got
00:42:10
a review, great review in the Times, just
sort of pointing all the things about it that I knew to be really, really good. It was sort
of the perfect review, you know, rave saying
00:42:19
like, this is fresh, it's new, it's different,
it's fun, it's entertaining, it's revealing.
00:42:25
And I felt really good. And on one level I
was like, Because before that, the first three
00:42:30
episodes, I hadn't really checked Twitter.
I thought, I don't, I'm not that guy anymore. I don't really care. Like I make the shows
and I know they're good. And the ones that
00:42:38
aren't good, I know none of these is, is a
clunker. They're all solid. And, and then here, and
then I suddenly thought, oh, I went back to,
00:42:45
I regressed into being the needy sort of,
um, the needy, insecure person, which is,
00:42:52
you know, and, and that guy is always there,
by the way. I think a lot of people could probably relate to that, which doesn't, it
doesn't mean, you know, which, which is, um,
00:43:01
which is fine by the way. But I suppose to, to your point, um, or, you
know, in all the kind of work in the work
00:43:08
I do is not like, is it an urge to connect?
Like it's an urge to do good work, and then it's nice for that to be recognized. And as
much as I, I could, I'd like to pretend. I
00:43:20
don't really care whether people like it or
not. I do care. Actually, do you know what's funny is my team
are very honest with me and we're in the car
00:43:27
the other day and I believe it was Holly.
Holly and my team who might be upstairs now, and I said, um, we were talking about your
Louis's coming on the podcast. I said, oh,
00:43:35
he's got the new series out where he interviews
people. And I turned to, I think it was Holly, it
might be someone else. So sorry if it's someone else. Um, I turned to them and said, how is
it? Because they'd seen it before me and they
00:43:44
went, it's actually really good. Oh, nice.
That's what they said to me. And they would be, and they would be so honest with me. They
went, it's actually really good.
00:43:51
And then they explained why it good cause
me, here's my thing like that actually, like, isn't it, it's actually like, it's actually
really good. But see when I, because I've,
00:44:01
I'm a very glass half empty kind of guy with
respect to praise. Yeah. So what I'm hearing
00:44:06
there is it's action surprising. Yeah. I'm
hearing like, cuz I'm hearing is that a surprisingly, in which case, why would that be surprising?
00:44:14
I can, I think I can assert white would be
surprising. Um, I think that, The generation
00:44:20
Holly's in. Mm-hmm. , they don't watch, um,
shows like that on BBC one, typically. Mm-hmm.
00:44:27
. And so BBC two, but BBC two, sorry, on the
bbc should I say. Yeah. Um, but that's what
00:44:32
I got from it is her generation who are like
22, 23, who spend a lot of time on like TikTok
00:44:38
and Instagram and these other platforms. I think, um, it was, I was actually quite
surprised. That's fine. And I think that's
00:44:43
probably true. And also I think in my world,
if I'm gonna talk about stuff, you know, we,
00:44:48
there's a troll in all of us, right. And,
and, and in general it's more enjoyable to talk about stuff and dunk on stuff because
it's shit.
00:44:56
Right. Like, and that sounds horrible. I'm
slightly oversimplifying. I think you're right. There's a lot, especially in the, in the journalistic
or in, in, so the media village, it's like,
00:45:05
did you see it? Nah. Yeah. That was rubbish,
wasn't it? And there's a sort of reassuring feeling of like, yeah, yeah. Let's all, let's
all give it a kicking.
00:45:13
Yeah. So, so when you acknowledge that something's
good, you're almost saying like, I'm going
00:45:19
grudgingly acknowledge that. That was good.
Yeah, I think you're correct. You know, that's a bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think pretty
much everything, especially when, cuz we probably
00:45:27
consider ourselves working in the media industry. Sure. So for the team to go, it's actually
really good. Yeah. Um, and then she went on
00:45:32
to explain to most things aren't that good?
They're not, I mean, most things are fine. Yeah. But most things are like only about
as good as they need to be. Do you know what
00:45:42
I mean? Especially in the interview format.
Like how many other ways can you create an interview format that is original and inspiring.
00:45:49
And that's also what I got from her was like,
she was talking to me about the way the format was constructed. Yeah. I think we pushed things
forward a little bit. Like it's not a paradigm
00:45:58
shift. Like we haven't completely flipped
the script as they used to say in hip hop circles. But it is, you know, we, we worked
on the grammar.
00:46:06
We tried to do things a little differently.
So we created a, for one of a better term
00:46:12
format, you know, that allowed for. Elements
of, um, actuality just being silly, having
00:46:19
fun or being in live settings where the unexpected
could happen, but also bits of, um, uh, conversation
00:46:27
that would be going to places that were quite
deep. So, yeah, thank you for that. And that, that
that's, that's, thank you for paring that
00:46:35
one TV I, I read when you were 18, I think
maybe 16, um, if someone had said to you that
00:46:40
you would end up in tv, you would've, you
would've been sort of perplexed at how that would've, the steps that it would've taken
to get you down.
00:46:47
Yeah, that's definitely true. You, you are
in San Jose, I believe at the time. Um, is that where SPY was? The magazine? No, I was
that Boston Rewind. Just to rewind, and I
00:46:56
also wanna mention one other thing, which
is, cuz we talked a little bit about studying and, and I feel as though whatever that is,
that work ethic has stood me in good stead,
00:47:05
but I don't feel that that's, I often think
there's. A very understandable, sort misconception
about the level of importance of, of academic
00:47:14
work. You know, that whole staying school
kids and, you know, we were talking, I think,
00:47:20
off, off mic about Mr. Beast, the YouTuber
and, you know, the media landscape we're in now. It, it would just, it's just simply not
correct to say that, oh, the path lies through
00:47:31
academic work. Right. And I was talking to my cousin, Justin
Thru, oddly enough, he says, Thoreau, who's
00:47:36
an actor, he's a director, uh, a writer. He
wrote Tropic Thunder, iron Man Two, he's been,
00:47:43
he's also like high profile Hollywood actor.
I interviewed him for my podcast. I'm not trying to plug, that'll be weird to plug one
podcast on another podcast.
00:47:51
But he, and he, he was like someone who struggled
in the academic setting. Like he, he had adhd.
00:47:57
He. Flunked out of a school. He went to another
school where they recognized his special needs. But the point is that I sort of think so many
as I think we undervalue, there's a tendency
00:48:06
to undervalue those parts of, of, um, of life
that that lead to success, that that exists.
00:48:13
I mean maybe you, maybe I'm sort of out of
line here cause it sounds like you are all over this, but those parts of like, the parts
of life that helped me become whoever I am
00:48:23
part of its academic part of its, was almost
inimical to academic success. It was the part
00:48:28
that was free spirited and naughty, and that
was bunking off school and seeing movies and,
00:48:34
and, um, or, or getting me in trouble and,
and, and, Whatever that is, and it's hard
00:48:41
to really bottle it and know quite what it
is. You know, there, there is something that I
struggle sometimes with over discipline, right?
00:48:49
And, and or a sense of like doing well in
controlled settings. But actually it's that
00:48:54
you need the yin and the yang of both. And,
and when I went out and did stuff that was
00:48:59
successful on tv, like working, doing my first
segments at a show called TV Nation, having
00:49:05
been hired by Michael Moore when I was 23,
partly like a work ethic, you know, doing
00:49:10
preparation and being, you know, turning up
on time, as they say is like 90%. Of the battle, but actually then being just
sort of allowing those creative juices sort
00:49:23
of to, to, you know, whatever that mysterious
quality of, um, humor and connectivity, just
00:49:32
being silly and disruptive, like those are
really valuable. They say don't, they, they say conformity is great to succeed in school,
but it's not great to succeed in life.
00:49:41
There's, maybe that's what it is. You kind
of need to be to conform once you get out, you sort of do. And I think, and, and I wanna
come back to your question, but, but I do
00:49:49
think that that's also, you know, three, four
years ago I started a company and there's a part of me that's overly. So overly conventional,
you know, and, and as a result seeks out unconvention
00:50:04
in my work. And that's positive, you know, it means like,
I love spending time with people who feel like they give free reign to the darkest,
weirdest impulses that I think to an extent
00:50:13
we all share, but keep repressed, you know,
whatever those happen to be. People involved in sex work or, or, or people involved in
religious cults or, or hate groups.
00:50:21
And, and that, that's sort my stock in trade
is talking to those people. Cuz I feel as though I kind of get it. Like, I, I understand
that those, that, that's part of the full
00:50:28
compliment, as horrible as it might sound
to say, like, we all have like unacknowledged and secret, um, impulses that, you know, we,
we have sort of civilized, uh, uh, in, you
00:50:38
know, and, and, And repressed into, into,
you know, we've inhibited them into our souls
00:50:45
so that we can function and, and not go to
be sent to prison or whatever, be canceled. But, um, for me, like I, I, I sort of, I,
I do it to a fault, to the point where I worked
00:50:55
at the BBC in-house, in BBC Studios, just
cuz I sort of liked the idea of the structure.
00:51:02
Like, I'm a company man going to the factory
and, you know, building my tv. programs but
00:51:08
not owning them. And cuz I just thought, you
know, and I like going to the can, I used to love working at TV Center cuz it felt like
going to the factory and then eating at the
00:51:16
TV center canteen. You know, it just felt, felt like comfortable.
You know, my, my granddad worked at the London
00:51:22
Water Board his whole life. He had one job
that he started when he was 18 and, and finished
00:51:27
when he was, whenever 65. You know, to some
extent those were the times. But that temperament is slightly in me the whole time.
00:51:34
When, when, when he left, they gave him, um,
some, a box of cutlery, you know, that was the, you know, you worked here for 47 years
here. Here's your silver, your silverware
00:51:43
in a walnut case. And it was on a, it was
in private place, like not pride of play, it wasn't on the mantle piece. But you, you
used, we used to look at it.
00:51:50
That's what grandpa got when he'd worked at
the Metropolitan Water Board for 47 years. You know, you sort of reverence it. Like,
and it was only used for special occasions.
00:51:59
And, and there's a little bit of that in me.
And so when I finally. Went outside the BBC
00:52:04
and set up a company three or four years ago. I'm sure most of your listeners probably have
their own, although many of them, not most,
00:52:10
but many of them will have their own companies
or will be fully cognizant of what it takes to make it in the sort of the world of, of,
of free market and entrepreneurship. But for
00:52:19
me, that was just absolutely not my lane and
it was my wife who pushed me to do it.
00:52:25
And so that was a case of me needing to break
out of whatever I was doing and say, do you
00:52:31
know what? Whatever you think that is risky
or mysterious, or, um, you know, a bit a spy,
00:52:40
you know, like just a little bit of judgment.
Like, oh, I don't wanna be one of the YPI guys. Like we just had an ipo. I've just got
my first Maserati like that cuz I, I'm Antagon,
00:52:49
you know, I've complete that, that whole mindset. I feel like I'm alienating maybe some of your
listeners. Like, it's not my mindset, like
00:52:56
I'm just like, I, I almost valorize the opposite
of that. You know, to an probably, um, an
00:53:04
extent that's sort faintly unhealthy. Like,
like I don't want be the guy, I don't want
00:53:09
a flash car. I don't want flash clothes, I
don't want anything. I wanna be anti flash. Right? Like my watch,
you can see this. My wife was saying to me
00:53:18
last night, um, you know, maybe time for a
new watch. This is a Casio, whatever that one is. It's a F nine one W. These costs like
10 pounds, 15 pounds you can get them at,
00:53:28
at Argos. Do you, have you ever seen that
watch before? I have. That's, I was listening to a, about
Andrew Tate on the way here, a podcast. You
00:53:34
know who Andrew T is? Yeah. What's your, anyway,
so Andrew Tate feels like he's, that guy reduced
00:53:40
to its quintessence where he is, like, one
of his catchphrases was, um, people say, why
00:53:45
have you got a, you know, green Bugatti? Do
you know this meme? And what does he say to them? He says, um,
well, he says, he says, what colors? I say
00:53:55
to them, what colors your Bugatti? , right?
That's him in a nutshells, like unapologetically
00:54:02
troll, like ostentatious displays of wealth
and arrogance, right? So I'm the anate. You
00:54:09
can put that on my, you put that on my gravestone? The anate. So I'm like, I don't give a fuck
about your Bugatti. I think it's embarrassing
00:54:17
that you have one. No offense if you, no,
I don't. I don't have a car, but, you know, fine. You know, and that's kind of a joke.
Like that's, I, I, my point really is that
00:54:25
that's something I need to keep an eye on,
you know, cuz actually ostentatious, uh, Almost
00:54:30
like ostentatious humility is its own poison. Like, like why are you so wedded to the idea
of having a shit watch? By the way, it's not
00:54:38
a shit watch. It's completely reliable and
it's, I've never had it. The only thing that goes on it is the strap. So, so I've got one
that's got a, a, you can replace the strap
00:54:47
after about five years. The strap goes. I've
got two of these. I'm not bragging . I've got one, I've got
my, I've got my spare one in case I can't
00:54:56
find this one. Anyway, last time my wife said
it might be time for a new watch. I've gotta embrace, I'm trying to lean into being the
guy that isn't showing off about what a lack,
00:55:05
what a not show off he is. You think I've
lost the thread? I haven't. The point I'm getting to is that,
um, so I needed to start a company and not,
00:55:13
because it's, it's oddly ing after a while.
Like there's nothing, there's nothing cool about making. Hundreds of hours of TV and
not owning any of it. Right. That's just me
00:55:25
being a little bit of a chump. And partly
that's, you know, there's a quid pro quo I suppose. Like, well you don't get stressed, you turn
up, you're making things for a public broadcaster,
00:55:35
you're getting a decent salary for sure. But
people would say like, why? You know everyone else, so who do you work for? It's like, well,
I'm bbc, I'm on contract. I work from contract
00:55:44
to contract three years at a time. Like really? You don't have your own company?
Like, no, why not? Like, you know, cuz everyone
00:55:50
else does, like Jamie Oliver or Hug Furley
Witting Stall or, or you know, whoever you
00:55:56
care to mention. Any presenter, bear Grills,
bear Grill of any longevity, um, would, would
00:56:03
be making their own shows. You know, it's,
it is a, it is a no-brainer. And I was like, oh, I guess I just, I'm fine
doing my, I'm a creature of habit, you know,
00:56:11
that was sort of what, I'm just sort fine.
I don't wanna mess around with it. And then
00:56:16
having done it three or four years ago, like,
yeah, I probably should have, should have done it a bit earlier. But it, it's, so, so
it's that thing of, um, the point which now
00:56:24
landing on the point sounds a bit vanilla,
was that you can sort of get in being a creature of habit, being sort of embrace into whatever
that, you know, your own sense of self as,
00:56:33
um, risk averse and, um, conventional. Sometimes, you know, I needed to challenge
myself in order to discover that there was
00:56:42
a, you know, a world out there that was sort
of more creative, more lucrative, more fun,
00:56:48
more adventurous. That's happened a few times
in your life where you've kind of taken a leap into the unknown, which is actually quite
surprising.
00:56:54
Having, you know, described yourself as a
creature of comfort. Even habit Have habit, sorry. Yeah. Um, what, no, I don't mean to
habit, like I'm trying to, like tell you off.
00:57:02
I can say habit, maybe of comfort as well,
although, you know, but habit is really what I meant. Yeah. Creature of habit. Cause I,
cause I was reading about when you made that
00:57:09
transition from being a writer to a TV presenter. Yeah. And. I, I, I remember writing some quotes
about how, um, how like there was one about
00:57:19
feeling like an imposter a little bit to some
degree and getting on that plane to go and interview these Christians. Once Michael Moore
had sort of, um, put you at front and central
00:57:28
country, that's, and thinking, what the fuck
am I doing here? Yeah, that was, I remember it vividly. It's
extraordinary as you go through life, so much
00:57:35
disappears, but there are times when you realize
you're at this mo sort of momentous moment. I suppose often it's high stress moments.
Which, which is really revealing, isn't it?
00:57:46
Because actually risk avoidance, you know,
that, that almost like, God, my mind's whizzing
00:57:52
now, but that bent of my idea, like the greatest
happiness, you know, in philosophy, there's
00:57:57
a utilitarian ideal that's supposed to be
the, the metric for how you judge whether an action is good or not.
00:58:02
And it's like the greatest, will it cause
the greatest happiness of the greatest number of people? But then if you unpack that, like,
well, what is happiness like? Well actually
00:58:11
how do you measure it? And how do you measure?
Is it happiness in the moment? Is it happiness as it's recollected over time? Is it, um,
a happiness that, you know, um, you can, uh,
00:58:24
that will spread to other people or, you know,
it will exist for a hundred years. Uh, and, and so actually there's a, there's
a sense of fear and discomfort that will subsequently
00:58:34
lead to sense of, of, of, of triumph or self-satisfaction.
I, you know, is it happiness? Is it, I don't
00:58:42
know, like that fear is such a, such a blunt
instrument for attempting to me measure reality. And, um, and in general, fear, which you would
equate with unhappiness can very often be
00:58:54
what ends up creating the conditions for real
achievement. And I, I, I, I, I remember sitting on this
plane having been given a job by Michael Moore
00:59:04
as a presenter on, you know, TV Nation. It
was a network TV show on nbc. One of the, there were then three networks in America.
I was 23. I, I was, as I say, awkward in every
00:59:16
apparent way, disqualified for being a, a,
a correspondent on a network TV show I was
00:59:24
in, I was having, I was in the union like,
you know, as probably still the case, but definitely then, TV shows were unionized to
an extent in America further than they would
00:59:34
be in the uk. So I would be, I was in the Writer's Guild
of America, uh, as a result of being hired.
00:59:40
And so they were required to fly me business
class. Like I don't think I'd ever been in business class. And somehow that contributed
to my imposter syndrome. My sense like, I
00:59:50
shouldn't really be here. I remember sitting
there thinking like, this is all kinds of wrong. Like, I dunno what I'm doing here. I dunno
why they think I'm qualified to do this. And
01:00:00
nevertheless, this is what's happening. And,
and I was that it was a segment that, uh,
01:00:05
was about, you know, TV Nation was a kind
of satirical, fact-based comedy show where
01:00:11
you went out and slightly made fun of people
with to prove a political point or to sort
01:00:16
of make some sort of social point. So I was interviewing religious cults about
when the end of the world was going to happen.
01:00:22
So it was sort of like slightly cheeky, um,
, irreverent take on religious fanaticism
01:00:29
or religious weirdness. So the eyes, like,
I wanted to know, so when will the world end? Is it on a Tuesday? How can I get prepared?
01:00:36
And I was sort of in a wide-eyed way. Oh no.
Like, will there be, you know, and are the
01:00:42
spaceships going to land? And what will the
aliens look like? But I was just incredibly
01:00:47
conscious of, of thinking like, why have I
been given this huge, um, it felt like a big
01:00:53
slab of pressure and, and sort of licensed
to fail very publicly and very embarrassingly.
01:00:59
And, and I also knew I wasn't, you know, but
I'm also wasn't so disconnected, connected
01:01:05
from reality that I didn't think like, well,
it's a huge opportunity. Like my, and my, my girlfriend at the time was very supportive
and was like, you know, you, you should, you,
01:01:14
you can do this Louis. Like, you're, you're
really good with people. And, and, um, and, and you know, don't, don't,
don't worry. Like you, you can, you've, you've
01:01:21
got this, you can handle it. When you try
to talk yourself out of it. I was, um, it
01:01:27
wasn't like I ever thought I, um, I, I won't
do it. Like I, it, it was no question for
01:01:34
like, I'm gonna do it. Like, I have to do
it, but I, I, I sort of didn't want to do it.
01:01:40
Does that make sense? Has that been typical
of your life where, you know, you've gotta do it, but it feels kind of painful and anxious
as you approach the challenge, even like with
01:01:47
starting your own company? Yeah, I think so.
Like, there's times when I, you know, I suppose that's where the work ethic part fits in or
whatever, like that part of, if, if you commit
01:01:58
to doing something, like I'm very, I, I hate
to let people down. Like if I commit to doing something, um, or
turning up on time or I still struggle with
01:02:10
that part. Like, especially as you're in the,
when you're in the public eye or you're in demand and people write and ask for things,
I still, you know, will you come to our school
01:02:17
and give a talk or I do. I. I, I'm, I'm a,
I'm very agreeable in that sort of technical
01:02:24
sense. I'm, I'm very inclined to agree to do things
and that can get you in trouble because you
01:02:30
find you're over, I, I find I over agree and
make unrealistic commitments, like, oh, that'll
01:02:35
be fine, and then I'll do that, and then I'll
do that. And then you look at it and you're like, there's just no way on earth I can do
all of these things. So I try and ring fence my commitment levels,
but that's not easy. So, but in a, in a positive
01:02:46
way, um, that sense of like feeling like I
need to show up, having agreed to do it, having
01:02:53
been offered a, um, an opportunity, even though
it might sound enormously stressful, like
01:03:00
I would never, I think this may be a world
in which I never got into tv. I dunno quite what I did end up doing. The
thing that it makes me reflect on. The extent
01:03:11
to which we are conditioned and groomed into
behaviors that can be healthy or unhealthy or positive or not positive. And I think that's
the part of the libertarian ethos that I have
01:03:20
a huge, well, among others I have a huge issue
with is like, oh, just let people be themselves.
01:03:25
People need help to fulfill their potential,
right? That idea that, oh, you know, you can
01:03:31
pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Like I,
with all the advantages I had of like a first
01:03:37
rate private education, supportive parents,
e even I like didn't see myself as someone
01:03:45
who would have various kinds of success. I
didn't feel that that was in me for whatever
01:03:51
reason. But other along the way, people among Michael
Moore, um, people at the BBC who then commissioned
01:03:58
me to do my own series off the back of TV
Nation, when I got commissioned to do weird weekends, my wife Nancy, other people along
the way have sort of, um, seen things in me
01:04:09
that. I didn't see in myself even this interview
series going out at the moment.
01:04:15
I, I never, it sounds awful. I never aspired
to have like a TV interview series. Like it
01:04:21
was something that would be mentioned from
time to time. And I would say like, that's not really me. You know? I like going out,
like my, my comfort, like my happy place really
01:04:32
is in terms of tv. Like, oh, go and be in
a prison for two weeks and film the inmates,
01:04:37
or go to a mental hospital or go to a, um,
a brothel, like I made a film about a brothel
01:04:43
and just hang out there for two or three weeks
and just be afl. That, that to me is, it sounds awful, but
that's, that's like pure bliss, like work-wise.
01:04:51
But the idea of, oh, we'll have a formal sit
down interview and you'll talk to someone famous who probably only has a couple of hours
for you, and then we'll piece it all together
01:05:01
and do shoot. I, I never thought like that's
really something I want to do, but. Patrick Holland, who was then in charge of
BBC two, had listened to my podcast and said
01:05:11
like, I really think this would work. Some,
not this exactly, but there's a, there's, there's a TV show that takes aspects of this
that could exist, that would, you know, involve
01:05:21
you talking to people. And I, and I remember
you would think like, oh, that would, that must have been exciting.
01:05:27
Like someone saying like, I wanted to do it.
This TV format involves partly chat show,
01:05:33
partly documentary. I just thought, I didn't
think like that's something I'll never do. I did think, like, I just felt very blank
about it. I know that's horrible, like people
01:05:42
are going to listen to this and throw up in
their cards, but I just thought that sounds sort of stressful.
01:05:48
I'm not sure if I really wanna do that. What,
but I made myself, the point is I made myself
01:05:53
do it because I had a team around me who I
knew expected me to do it and at some level I had enough sense to recognize that it was
an opportunity. These people that have seen
01:06:03
things in you that you maybe couldn't at the
time, have seen in yourself or seen roles for you that you maybe at the time couldn't
have seen for yourself?
01:06:08
Michael Moore, Nancy, and then people at the
BBC that you mentioned. Are you aware of what
01:06:14
they're seeing in you now in hindsight, what
they see? Uh, yeah, I think so. And I think
01:06:19
in with, with a bit of time, I've been able
to appreciate, um, that, I know it sounds
01:06:27
sort of glib and maybe even false, modest,
but to, to appreciate that I have something to offer. Um, what is that? Well, um, it makes people
feel uncomfortable when you're asking these
01:06:37
questions. No, no. I'm fine with it. Okay.
Like, cuz I feel as though I can analyze it. Um, With the benefit of 25 years of doing
it. I think it's something to do with like
01:06:49
a little bit of intelligence, a little bit
of humor, a little bit of un sort of unor
01:06:57
awkwardness. Like I think that's part of it, like just
being a little bit awkward, a little bit of,
01:07:04
um, sorts of authenticity or, or whatever
that is. Like, just sort of feeling like,
01:07:10
I think maybe that that same thing of not
really fully chasing it or fully sort of needing
01:07:18
it, oddly enough is almost the, you know,
it's like to go through the door, you have
01:07:23
to not want to go through the door too much. I dunno if that's even, that's definitely
not a saying and it doesn't actually make
01:07:29
any sense, but whatever sense you can make
of that contradictory statement, if you want it too much, I think. There's, there's, then
you need to step back and think about quite,
01:07:39
it's almost like then you're not ready. Um,
grasshopper, is that the right, is Grasshopper, is that what these are saying?
01:07:46
Karate kid? Yeah. I think if I can talk, if
I can call you a grasshopper, Steve. No. Um, you know, it's like, it's that feeling of,
uh, you know, at the end of the day, , um,
01:07:58
there's more important things in life and,
um, I don't wanna overdo, I actually got lost
01:08:04
in my metaphor a bit, but I think in the end
it's like those different qualities of, of, of, of it's, it's that compliment of qualities
and then just luck.
01:08:11
But I don't think luck really is a quality,
but alongside, I'm now at the position we're
01:08:18
having done my job for long enough. It's put
me in a slight, I think there's loads of people
01:08:23
who could be, uh, whoever I am, like occupy
that cultural place that I'm in. But, you
01:08:30
know, and partly I've earned my place here,
and partly I've been really lucky. But I think, you know, when you said something
earlier, it also made me think of another quality, which is to do with, which isn't
a negative thing, which is that, you know,
01:08:44
that idea like you, when you were told, you
know, when I was told that, oh, you know, Patrick, you know, is quite keen to do some
sort of talk format or some interview thing
01:08:53
where you're on tv and I, and I just think
like, well, I'm not really sure. I, I, I think one of my, cuz it goes back
to what you were asking earlier about what
01:09:02
is the downside of these various qualities.
Like, I do think there's a term Anne Hedonic. Have you ever heard that term? No. It just
means, I think it's a clinical term, but it
01:09:11
sort of, it sort of means averse to pleasure
or lacking in pleasure. Like, there's a part of me again that, um,
I think my wife has helped me with is that
01:09:20
I, I kind of sense that I'm not always connected
to pleasure. Does that sound weird? Like I,
01:09:28
I, you know, sometimes I, I sort of drift
through life and, and I have to sort of stop and remind myself I think because I, I sort
of.
01:09:35
I, I tend to see downsides and, and I, I'm
working on that and, and I, I really do. Like,
01:09:41
I, I sort of need to, it's really odd, like
I've won three Bs, not bragging. Uh, this
01:09:49
just came up and I, and I mention it's a fact.
And, um, and when you win a, after you've
01:09:55
got a lot of awards up there. I'm not seeing
a b Maybe those are just I presented after to
someone else. Some of them ones a camera.
01:10:02
I'm not sure that camera is an award or you
can do a cutaway of that later. You know,
01:10:08
it's odd. Like I, my main thing on winning,
each time I won a ba I first thought was being.
01:10:14
Oh shit. Now I have to give an acceptance
speech. Right. And I have to get up there and, um,
you know, in high, like, the pleasure, you
01:10:22
know, you get a little pleasure over the subsequent
years when you can bring it up again and again as I like to do. But actually it's really
hard. Like I, I, most of the time when I get
01:10:32
good news, sometimes I don't even, I can't
notice the good news. Does that sound really weird? No, that makes
sense. I don't know if that make, thank you
01:10:39
for saying that. I think you're being polite.
Yeah. I I'm not someone who, I'm not someone who, um, is, who automatically feels connected
to the good things that happen to them. How
01:10:51
does one remain happy if they have that sort
kind of default to, oh my God, where am I
01:10:56
gonna put this third BA that I've won? Or now I have to do a speech. Well, that's
awful. But you just sort of follow your routine,
01:11:03
you know? And actually, I am a happy person
and, um, I, um, I, you know, I, I I take pleasure
01:11:11
in the simple things in life. You know, I,
I like, um, doing stuff with the, you know,
01:11:18
stuff with the family or, you know, really,
I really am a terrible, I've made a simple
01:11:23
place. Like I, I like watching Match of the Day at
the weekend. Like you say, like, yeah, okay,
01:11:29
lots of people like doing that. What's like,
but you know, like that, that for me is one of the small things in the week where I'm
like, I know I'm gonna be happy for the next
01:11:39
45 minutes or, or hour, you know what I mean?
Or on, on a, on a Saturday night, I listen
01:11:46
to loose ends on Radio four, and often I'll
be cooking and, and that's a small thing.
01:11:52
And I get a little, a little tiny little boost
out of, um, now I'm gonna enjoy it. Usually
01:11:58
I enjoy listening to it. There's little thing,
I, I mean, I, I'm not, if someone says like,
01:12:03
you're gonna go on holiday to The Bahamas,
I'm trying to imagine what a really big, happy
01:12:10
thing would be. I, I would normally experience
that as stress and anxiety. I think that's quite normal though. Holidays
are stressful, aren't they? Maybe you've got
01:12:18
your priorities in order, in fact, because
you don't seem to be compelled or sat, um, or derive your happiness from like, the big
wonky stuff from like the Lamborghini, the
01:12:27
spaghetti, the bfda. Yeah. What color's your
spaghetti? The GQ man of the year stuff. You seem, seem
to drive it from the, the simple, intrinsically
01:12:35
fulfilling things like, you know, cooking,
listening to a thing that's intellectually stimulating. So maybe we're all, maybe everyone
else is a weirdo and you're actually incredibly
01:12:44
normal. Don't know. I, I think there's more
of us out there than you might think, but
01:12:49
maybe not. We're all trapped in our own brains. There's
no way of measuring. I do think that, um,
01:12:54
you know, I mentioned that when I saw that
I got a nice review in the. That gave me like a, as I said, it gave me a buzz. You cared
about your work though. Yeah. You really cared
01:13:03
about, well, that wasn't even about, I mean,
I do care about the work. I mean, work is a big source of pleasure.
Like in the sense of either being on location
01:13:11
and, um, being aware of it going well and
getting into an almost like a mindset in an
01:13:17
interview of feeling like, yeah, this is all
good. Like I feel connected. I feel, uh, cuz
01:13:23
it's a high stress in a way. I'm sure you
have a little bit, if you have an interview with someone, you feel like you've been trying
to book it for a while, uh, the moment comes,
01:13:30
you're like, the next two hours are really
important. You want it to go smoothly. You want it to
feel like a revealing encounter. You, you
01:13:37
wanna be probing and insightful and intensive
and immersed and not distracted, but also
01:13:43
thinking ahead and, and all of that's going
on. And then it starts and then you feel like, oh, it's going okay. And then after you're
like, that was a good one.
01:13:50
And then in the edit you're putting it together
and you're piecing things in like that. All of those, the simple pleasures of. Of craft,
you know, like it's really, and it is simple.
01:14:00
Like it's no great mystery, but that, that's,
that's a big part of, um, of how I connect
01:14:07
with, uh, well my own happiness. How do you
connect with people? So actually I wanted to ask you this for my
own sort of learning. You've done this for
01:14:15
multiple decades. You've sat with people from
every corner of the world. You have all of these different experiences, and some of them
are a little bit, you know, in the nicest
01:14:22
sense, a little bit out there. Mm-hmm. , I'm
glad I landed with a PC word. Yeah. A little bit out there. Wonder what
the non PC word . But you have, um, it was
01:14:32
funny when I asked you about the qualities
you have, I think you absolutely nailed it. And all of those make you incredibly disarming
that almost like lack of intense seriousness
01:14:40
makes you really disarming individual. Um,
how do you connect with people? How intentional is your approach to connecting
with them mm-hmm. in your new interview series, but also just generally Some of it is stuff
that. You know, I didn't, I just sort of came
01:14:56
by by accident, probably most of it, which
is a thing, you know, natural curiosity, which
01:15:01
I think you have a feeling of, um, of just,
just wanting to know why people do the things
01:15:09
that they do. Right. And, and, and sort of getting out of
your own way a bit, you know, in the sense,
01:15:16
cause the question I get asked most often
is like, what, how do you not get angry with
01:15:22
some of these people? Especially the ones
who are sort of spewing hate or coming out with stuff That's really objection. I find
it slightly confusing question because I think
01:15:31
that's so, is so far from what's in my head
most of the time I'm genuinely think like,
01:15:37
why, if, if it is someone, like say a neo-Nazi
or someone involved in religious intolerance,
01:15:43
I'm just so curious about what takes someone
to that place. What, what, what's in their mind that to actually
berate them. To give him a hard time or even
01:15:56
be particularly journalistically confrontational.
That's not, that's not my default mode. That's
01:16:02
so interesting. Cause I just think in life
generally, those who like seek to un, even in our personal relationships and romantic
relationships, those that seek to understand,
01:16:12
tend to build bridges. But if you seek to like, as you say, berate.
Yeah. I get told off on this podcast a lot on like Twitter and in the press, like, because
I don't berate people. Mm-hmm. , like when
01:16:20
I had Matt Hancock here, I asked him the questions
I really wanted to know, but I didn't, I didn't come to berate him. No. He would've gone this.
01:16:27
Yeah. The wall would've gone up had I done
that. There's other ways of, and some people use a confrontational approach and that's
fine. And then I think in general, um, you
01:16:37
know, there's many ways of doing interviews
and I think probably, you know, I haven't
01:16:42
interviewed many politicians, and it's probably
related to that, the feeling that they, they,
01:16:48
they have their. They tend to have their guard up, they tend
to be, uh, followed a strategy of, of attempting
01:16:55
to be as, as risk averse headline averse as
as possible. And it's like those aren't the
01:17:01
people I'm, I'm interested in people who are
genuinely attempt, who feel like they've got something figured out or, or, or are involved
in a, in a world or a lifestyle or just some
01:17:12
situation that is, is either self-sabotaging
or, or filled with angst. So in the end, I see it as not, I'm not trying
to get one over on people. I'm not trying
01:17:23
to, I honestly, most interviews I see it as
a, as a potential win-win. You know what I
01:17:29
mean? Like, I, I should think like, well,
there's no, there's no reason why you shouldn't
01:17:34
tell me the truth and you're involved in something
that you're relatively open about.
01:17:39
And, and I'll, I'll just assume that that's
probably the case. Now, obviously you are
01:17:46
briefed, you've done as much research. As
you can. But um, I think if you feel as though
01:17:52
you're coming from a position of, um, sort
of shared inquiry, then that's contagious.
01:17:59
Um, I think also I sort of tend to think,
I think there's some part who thinks maybe
01:18:05
other person's got it figured out and I haven't. Right. A level of humility so that when they
say stuff, I'm genuinely thinking like, well,
01:18:13
I guess maybe or may. Or they say something
bonkers. I'm like, well, that isn't right. But I enjoy bumping up against that and I
don't go in there thinking I'm gonna, I'm
01:18:25
gonna get this person. Like, I'm gonna get
one over on them. I sort of feel as though, you know, you come
in and you just sort of try and just see what's
01:18:34
going on. You know, if, if people see like,
You are attempting to wrestle intimacies from
01:18:40
them, that's never gonna go well. You just
create the space and the sense of, of understanding
01:18:46
and allow them to sort of walk through that
everything you've just described there, that creating the space to like understand them,
the humility, which is ultimately creates
01:18:56
that safety, which allows them to open up
are the exact things that I know my partner wants from me in all of our interactions.
01:19:02
Mm-hmm. . So because you've got that skill
in your work, I'm here assuming that you also have that at home mm-hmm. , is that correct?
Um, I think I could work better on it. Like,
01:19:14
I'm very aware that the skill set, I often
think about the skill that I have in my work of being supposedly a good listener and an
empathetic.
01:19:23
And present person. I, I slightly fail at,
you know, kind of, I think a very, probably normal way in, in my relationship. Like I,
I have a very happy marriage and probably
01:19:35
you should check that with Nancy. Uh, cause,
well, I'm slightly reviewing my own restaurant
01:19:40
if I can use that metaphor. Um, and um, but
yeah, on good reads, I gave my book a five
01:19:49
out of five and, and you know, I'm giving
my marriage five out of five. Uh, so I think, I think I could do. I think
I could, I could improve. This episode is
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serious? Yes. Gotta get through this, my life
01:21:57
in strange times in television. Do you know
what I'm gonna say? Get it on audiobook for an extra chapter about Jimmy ssl. That's true.
Speaking of page 157, and Jimmy, Jimmy SSL
01:22:09
on that page, your former wife, seeing as
we're talking about relationships and reviewing them, et cetera, she said, there's nothing
real about you.
01:22:17
Yeah. And to the point of Jimmy ssl, he also
said something which was to the same vein about insincerity. Yeah. Being your specialty.
Yeah. That's good. I'm glad you brought that
01:22:31
up, It's quite a, uh, telling sort of ringing
piece of, uh, self exposure where, where,
01:22:41
yeah, I, my wife and Jimmy several both make
the same critique of my interpersonal qualities,
01:22:48
finding me lacking in. basically authenticity,
lacking insincerity. There's nothing real
01:22:54
about, well, the first thing is when a relationship
is ending, um, you seize whatever you can
01:23:01
to hurt the other person. I think it's, I think when someone you really
love and you think really loves you, I mean,
01:23:10
I, it was my girlfriend at the time, although
we were married, and that's a whole other
01:23:15
complicated. But, but yeah, when that relationship
was ending, I think there's a feeling of betrayal,
01:23:21
isn't there? It's like, I thought we were,
we were together forever and I trusted that that would be the case.
01:23:27
And, and here we are. Clearly you don't feel
the same way. And, and so I'm in the position of, in her eyes being a kind of trait and
inauthentic someone who didn't deliver on,
01:23:39
um, on what was promised, although it wasn't
promised. But what was, what seemed to be
01:23:45
implicit. Um, I think, uh, yeah, in, I mean,
I remember where we were, like when the Jimmy
01:23:54
Sa, the first documentary I made about Jimmy
Sa, when he was alive, when Louis met Jimmy,
01:24:00
not available on the iPlayer, um, but it's
on the internet, you can find him. And um, I remember when we promoted it, um,
before, I think it was when we promoted it,
01:24:12
and he, he agreed to do an interview to promote
it. And he, part of that was a profile interview
01:24:19
in The Guardian, and he was interviewed at
the King's Cross in one of the, in the hotel
01:24:24
there, in one of the hotel rooms. And the
guy from the Guardian came down, and I don't even know why, I don't even know why it came
up.
01:24:32
Um, but I made a joke and he said, ah, in
sincerity your specialty, Gosh, you asking
01:24:40
me to get inside the mind of Jimmy Saville
to think about what he meant when he criticized
01:24:46
me? I think he thought that, um, I think that
journalistic role where, um, well, I think
01:24:55
part, I think you know what it is, is like
the best const, there's two constructions I can put on that.
01:25:01
One is just that in journalism you sort of
required to inhabit this place of intimacy.
01:25:07
Like actually, like, hey, let's do this and
let's do that, and then afterwards you sort of disconnect and sometimes that can feel
jarring. I don't think actually that's what
01:25:16
he meant though. Like I think, I think maybe
in some cases there's a, there's a pop journalism
01:25:22
that can feel slightly in sort of transactional
where you're like, let's grow down on location
01:25:29
and, and have fun. And, and yet if you looked at it. dispassionately.
It's slightly cynical and calculating. It's
01:25:36
like, well, you're doing this for a TV program.
And, and so there's a part that slightly feel
01:25:42
a little bit uncomfortable. I think really
what he was talking about, there was a sense of humor. Um, he was, he was calling out my
sense of humor, which is sometimes an aspect
01:25:53
of it, which sometimes involves, um, almost
self parody, like an element of where you
01:25:59
say something, uh, almost as a way of par
sort of paring or satirizing your own.
01:26:08
This isn't gonna make any sense, Steve, but
you satirize your own worst impulses. The
01:26:13
best example I can give is when I said to,
um, when I was with Neil and Christine Hamilton,
01:26:19
right. I did a program and they were accused
of sexual assault and, and while I filmed
01:26:24
with them, and then I, uh, and they would
become media circus and I carried on filming, and then they did a deal with the male on
Sunday.
01:26:32
to sell their story. And I was interviewing
them during all of this and I said to Christine,
01:26:37
how, how much did the mail on Sunday pay for
you, uh, for the interview? I was just curious.
01:26:43
Cuz I knew probably they got 10 or 15 or 20,000
pounds and I was just curious. And Christine
01:26:49
said, I'm not gonna tell you. And I said to Christine, Christine, this is
me. I'm not a journalist, I'm a friend. Like
01:26:58
you can tell me. And a lot of people gave
me shit for it. Right? Like that what I said.
01:27:04
But in my mind, like that was a funny thing
to say because quite obviously, um, I am a
01:27:09
journalist and whether I'm a friend or not
is actually not established. I'm not clearly not a friend, but I'm not
also clearly a friend. Right. So that was
01:27:19
kind of a funny remark because I was being
nakedly insincere, which is fun. Like sometimes
01:27:27
to me, what's funny is saying, But not like
sort of saying the wrong thing, saying the thing that sort brazen as a way of, of just
sort of identifying the hypocrisy and having
01:27:40
fun with it. So I, I tend to think that, I think that's
what Jimmy Saville meant was that sometimes
01:27:45
I would say things that would kind of definitively
either untrue or quite clearly being said
01:27:53
because they were not clearly true. Anyway,
that's way you asked that question. And then when you ask a question about Jimmy Saval,
I'm gonna give you a long answer because it's
01:28:01
easy to be misconstrued. But I think that's what he meant. I think
I'm in general, like fairly, um, a fairly
01:28:09
straight up person, but I also think that
the tendency to believe your own bullshit
01:28:15
to drink your own Kool-Aid is, is almost universal,
almost a precondition of life. Right. You
01:28:22
know, NTHA, the German philosopher. Uh, who
I try not to quote too much cuz it makes me sound pretentious, but he has, he has a couple
of really good quotes on this where one is,
01:28:34
um, for the true deceiver, you know, for the
most effective deceiver, first he must believe
01:28:40
his own deceptions. I, I'm mangling that quotation. But the idea
that in order to con someone, you sort of
01:28:45
have to believe the most effective con artist
is the one who believes their own con, you know, you and, you know, like, or a seducer,
like they say that about Casanova, you know,
01:28:56
one of the most, um, notorious womanizers,
um, in human history. And they say that he actually, each time he
seduced someone, he fell in love with them. You know, and maybe it's true for sales in
general. Like, you really gotta, if you believe
01:29:10
in that. And, and so I'm, I'm fully aware
that for me to say like I'm an authentic human
01:29:16
being and that my journalism relies on. A
kind of true connection. I'm, I'm, I, you know, the little part me
thinks like, I think, I believe that, um,
01:29:25
I'm pretty sure I, I pre, I know I do believe
that, but I'm not my own best reference on whether or not that's really the case. I neglected
my personal life to focus on achieving some
01:29:37
sort of per professional success. The price
of my lack of emotional mouse was paid by those nearest and dearest to me.
01:29:43
When did you get that feedback? Cause I remember
the times in my life where I've got that feedback from friends, family, romantic partners, and
at first, sometimes we sometimes argue against
01:29:54
it. We, oh, fuck off. And then we walk away
and we go, eh, this is true. I think I've had that feedback in my relationships more
or less, um, consistently.
01:30:06
Uh, and, and until maybe. Four or five, six
years ago. Like, I think, again, I feel like
01:30:14
I'm reviewing my own book. Like, and now folks,
I am happy and healthy and well adjusted,
01:30:22
and I've arrived at a spiritual place of tranquility.
But I do, I am conscious that I, um, all through
01:30:34
my twenties and thirties, I saw my relationships
as a, um, I think, I think the other phrase
01:30:42
I use is, is like I saw my relationships as
sort of life support system for my kinda work
01:30:48
self. Do you know what I mean? Amen. I can relate
instead of the other way around, you know?
01:30:53
And so I would say like, well, I would take
off when I went. Worked for Michael Moore. It was even back in, in the nineties. It was
a source of friction in the relationship that,
01:31:03
like, without much warning, cause I became
the fillin guy who, when other stake people couldn't do segments or because they were,
they found, weren't available, weren't stressed
01:31:12
about it, I, I'd be like, let's get Louie
to do it. I, I, I did a lot of great segments just by
being available at a moment's notice to fly
01:31:20
somewhere and, and never thought really, which
I don't know that, that it was the wrong thing
01:31:25
to do at that time. We didn't have kids. Um,
and so I'd be like, okay, I'm off for three
01:31:31
or four days. And um, but as it went on and
then as I had kids, um, and I was still doing
01:31:38
the same thing, sort of saying to my wife,
well this is what I do. There's a chapter in my book called This is
What I Do. You know, you knew when we married
01:31:46
that we would be, um, that I was a sort of
globe trotting TV documentary maker. And she,
01:31:54
um, She said, yeah, what did I do? When we,
when we met, I was a TV director as well, and I've changed what I do and you need to
change what you do.
01:32:01
Like, I don't mean to sound like she was being
horrible about it, but her attitude was like, people make a, you need to make an adjustment
to accommodate the fact that we now have two
01:32:10
small children. And how did you receive that?
Um, at first I think I received that as
01:32:20
well. Not, not well. Like I, it didn't make
me angry, but it, I, I was somewhat inflexible
01:32:29
because my attitude was, look, I was, because
I went, you know, I, my parents had, my dad
01:32:35
traveled a lot for work. My mom was a full-time
TV producer and we had people at home op pairs
01:32:43
who, um, who made sure that when we got home
someone was there and would make us a meal. And so I was like, well, we just need to get
help. She said, I don't want, I don't want.
01:32:52
Us to get help. I said, you, she said, well,
I said, I said, you can do whatever you wanna do. You, you can carry on working five days
a week, six days. You can travel as well if
01:33:02
you want. We just need to get help. And she's
like, I don't, I want one of us to be here and I want for some of that. I want it to be you. I don't know. Does that
sound so you sound like me. Really? Yeah.
01:33:12
Yeah. And I was like, well, I said, I, I guess
I don't see it that way. So it became a bit
01:33:18
of an impa impasse for a while. And then,
and then, um, well then we had another child
01:33:27
and um, and she said, well, now we've got
a baby and two small children and you've agreed
01:33:37
to take, to make sure you only work in the. And I was like, did I agree to that? And she
said yes. And I couldn't remember it, but
01:33:43
I was like, well, she's probably right. And
um, did you make rules? I read that you made some rules, you had a rule that I wouldn't
go away for more than two weeks. And um, and
01:33:52
actually for most of the time it was between
sort of a week and 10 or 12 days. Are you flexible now? Well, I don't wanna
make my wife sound like, I know there's some people I hear that and go like, well, you
know, Louis was obviously bringing back the
01:34:06
bigger wage and, and so he should have been.
I, I honestly think my wife was right about
01:34:12
most of that. I feel the same way about my
partner and it's almost identical that it,
01:34:18
it took me to find the right person to compromise
my inflexibility where they, they made the case to me that quality time and this relationship
was actually an equal priority, let's say,
01:34:27
to the work and with the right person, I was
finally willing to bend. And I was finally willing to, you know? Yeah.
So, but I think it takes the right person.
01:34:35
Yeah. To me it does. Anyway. Yeah. The right
person, the right relationship, the right life stage. Yeah. I also say that these interviews
I'm doing, part of that is an agreement that
01:34:44
we made, well, even in agreement, a kind of
agreement I made with myself in lockdown and
01:34:49
being around my kids are now 16, 14, and eight. You know, turns out older children in many
respects need more management, need more sort
01:34:58
of parental presence in their lives than younger
children. And so I said, well, maybe a way
01:35:04
for me to travel less and not be taking off
for, you know, two or three months a year, cuz you aggregate those two week trips or
10 and they add up to maybe a quarter or a
01:35:13
third of the year. And now I, I can, I can, my schedule is much
more, I said like, if I do these interview.
01:35:19
And we make TV shows in the uk and that there's
a more controllable schedule, and I could
01:35:25
be around more. Nancy helped me set up the
company. She's working more, I'm home more.
01:35:31
And so it's actually like, it turns out conforming
to those expectations of family involvement.
01:35:38
It is really positive. Like it can actually
be a creative boon. You know? It's not the
01:35:44
enemy necessarily. It can be, it can make
you a more rounded person that ends up being
01:35:49
beneficial. That's exactly what I used to
think it was. I used to think it was the enemy of my professional success, but I've come
to learn that it may be the friend.
01:35:57
It's the, yeah, it serves it. Um, you mentioned
anxiety throughout this conversation. Now sometimes when people talk about anxiety,
they talk about it as in. Like an emotion.
01:36:07
They kind of, it's a flippant word to describe
a situation where you're thinking a little bit much, but then there's what people would
describe as sort of real anxiety that kind
01:36:15
of crippling like, ooh, you know, that we've
all felt that like insane and shakeable sort of deep nervousness about a situation and
worry.
01:36:22
Which one are you referring to? Uh, I think
the first one, I, I don't think I've ever had a panic attack, for example. Um, I don't
think I've ever had a feeling of, um, kind
01:36:34
of in being incapacitated. I mean, I've had
moments where I've had stage fright or moment,
01:36:42
you know, that, that thing where due to you,
you just get, even recently, like there's
01:36:48
been moments where you just get this sort
tremulous feeling of nerves and your voice
01:36:54
starts to shake. Have you ever had that where you've been in
a situation where, or sometimes it's just,
01:37:02
sometimes it, it's to do with you're in a.
, you get into an argument with someone and you get really upset and your voice goes a
bit like this. Like it doesn't, you know,
01:37:11
it was just kind of horrible. Uh, or sometimes
it's just where you feel like you are.
01:37:17
Like I've been once or twice in, in situations
where, um, I just think, oh, this isn't going
01:37:24
well. And then your, your confidence goes.
I mean, dunno if that's quite, that's sort of nerves which are slightly different from
anxiety. Anxiety, like where, but the anxiety
01:37:33
I mainly mean is just a kind of sense of foreboding,
a pervasive feeling of, um, of worry about
01:37:42
something that's gonna happen. Because one of the things we talk a lot about
on this podcast is about mental health and
01:37:47
about how that affects people that are in
high profile, high stress positions. What's your, you know, mental health is a topic that
kind of emerged in cultural relevance about
01:37:56
maybe a decade ago now. But when I was a kid
I didn't understand it. I didn't know what that was. And I, I be honest,
I think the stigma was very much my belief.
01:38:03
It was kinda like, people are crazy. Some
people are crazy. Yeah. Um, what's your journey been like with your own mental health? I feel
really lucky to have, um, broadly speaking,
01:38:12
good mental health. I also think what you're
saying is exactly right and I think that there's
01:38:18
a kind of, there's a continuity, a blurring
that exists so that, um, you, I think mental
01:38:24
health as opposed to mental illness is a good
way of thinking about it like that. Cuz actually, um, we should all be striving
toward, Being our best selves, we should be
01:38:35
managing our anxiety. I think a lot of men
especially fail even to recognize when their
01:38:41
mental health may not be as good as it could
be. And the extreme end, you've got incapacitating
01:38:47
mental illness that requires a set of interventions,
possibly medication, even sort of residential
01:38:54
rehab settings. But for, for, for the rest of us, it's just
a, it's keeping an eye on, on how you're doing
01:39:01
and, and no, you know, sometimes I notice
my emotions from the outside. Like, I, I notice
01:39:07
that my voice is raised. I'm like, wow, I'm
angry. You know, like, or, or, and even when
01:39:12
I'm sad I, or grumpy or whatever it is, I'm
not the first really to see it. Or my wife will say like, are you in a bad
place? I think we've been guilty of failing to see mental health as a holistic condition.
Like in other words, that. Your support network
01:39:29
needs to be in place. You need social inter,
these are really basic, but you need social interaction. You need, you need, um, exposure
to things outside of work.
01:39:40
You also need endorsement and approval in
work. And all of these things need to be sort
01:39:46
of pulling in the same direction. And there
may be people in your life who are undermining you and you may need support from people to
nudge you in the right direction. But, you
01:39:55
know, not to sound really bland about it,
I feel as though I've, um, you know, through,
01:40:02
through sort of my wife's so perceptiveness
and her ability to sort of see how, how just
01:40:10
so involved me in life a bit more that that's,
um, that's kept me in a good place.
01:40:17
We have a closing tradition on this podcast,
which, Which is the previous guest writes
01:40:22
a question for the next guest. Oh, wow. Okay.
And the previous guest, you don't get to know who the previous guest was, but the previous
guest has written a question, um, for you
01:40:30
not knowing it was for you, and they said,
what is your opinion on hallucinogens?
01:40:36
Hallucinogens? Um, I, my opinion is, I think,
um, you know, if you, if, if you feel like
01:40:48
you are, if you're of age like 18 plus, I
dunno how your younger listeners are, you
01:40:53
know, maybe even maybe slightly older. Um,
and you feel like you've got solid mental
01:40:58
health. I think it's a, it's not a bad avenue
to go down. It's not something I've massively dabbled
in. Um, I've noticed, I dunno about you, I,
01:41:08
in my social settings, um, it seems to be
mushroom oil. It's something that's increasingly
01:41:16
being used. Uh, And I think actually in a,
you know, in a, and I think we're all aware
01:41:21
of the slight, there's sort of dissonance
between our levels of acceptance of alcohol
01:41:29
and then the sort of relative unacceptance
of things like whether it's marijuana or mushrooms
01:41:36
and mushroom oil. Like, I'd like to see that leveled out. Like
I'd like to see as it is in California and
01:41:41
elsewhere, I'd like to see cannabis legalized
and, um, I think mushroom oil, without giving
01:41:48
too much. Could be really positive from what I understand. Louis, thank you so
much for your time today. Pleasure so much
01:42:00
from you for, for so many reasons. Um, and
your new documents on the bbc, BBC two, and on I Player Lou through interviews is incredible.
Yeah, you're six them out there, they're right
01:42:12
now. Um, they're incredible and you're interviewing
some incredible people that are, are being very vulnerable and open with you.
01:42:17
But thank you for the inspiration as well.
You're someone that I've watched for the, for decades. Thanks Steve. And that's given
me a life full of enjoyments and thank you
01:42:23
for coming and doing this. Pleasure. Quick
one. Right now, one of my sponsors on this podcast who I absolutely adore, crafted the
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now up to 70% off a brand that's already incredibly
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because I was such a big fan of the brand. I'm not somebody that rolls around in Rolexes
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jewelry that isn't gonna change color, that
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And they have a sale on right now, which they
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For many years people have been asking for
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a coffee flavored hu and quite recently Hill
released the ice coffee, caramel flavor of
01:43:46
their, um, ready to drink hus and I've just
become hooked on it. Over the last couple of weeks, I've been on a really interesting
journey with Hue, which I've described and
01:43:54
talked about a little bit on this podcast. I started with the berry ready to drinks,
then I moved over to the protein salted caramel
01:44:00
because it's a hundred calories and it gives
you all of your essential vitamins and minerals, but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein
you need. And now I'm balanced between them
01:44:09
both. I drink mostly the banana flavor, ready
to drink. I've got really into the iced coffee caramel.
Um, flavor of, of heels ready to drink and
01:44:16
now I'm drinking that as well as the protein.
Make sure you try the new ready to drink flavors that the caramel flavor's amazing. The, um,
new banana flavor as well is amazing. And
01:44:25
obviously, as I said, the iced coffee caramel
flavor has been a real smash hit. So check it out. Let me know what you think
on social media. I see all of your tags in
01:44:33
Instagram posts and tweets about you.