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What are the five most important things for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator to get what they
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want out of life? >> The first is authenticity and presence is the highest form of authenticity.
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>> Okay, on that point, I'm going to play this video on the screen that went viral
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of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. >> Oh, I haven't seen this. That's painful to watch.
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>> Number two, >> reduce the amount of distraction. Three, stop overexplaining.
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>> Number four, know how to deal with their sadness. And I'll go through all of
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these in detail, but number five is you have to know how to handle the narcissist and the gaslighter. What do I
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do? Let me show you. First, you need to come. >> Yeah. For a lot of people, that kind of
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blows their mind. Jefferson Fiser is back and the board certified trial lawyer is using his expertise in
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conflict resolution and communication >> to teach couples, friends, employees,
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>> and everyone in between how to master difficult conversations. >> Here's the truth. You have to invest in
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your communication. If I don't say what needs to be said at work, I'll lose that
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promotion. Same thing in relationships. Most relationships don't fall apart because they fell out of love. They fell
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out of communication because of a 100 moments where repair could have happened and it didn't. Cuz you said, "Ah, this
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is so stupid. This so small." Like there's a recent study showing that the
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biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental relationship is not whether they were
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married or divorced. It was how they deal with conflict. But people are definitely afraid of the conflict that
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they're in cuz they don't know what to say. And so I want to help them feel
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controlled in this, feel confident in this. And it's knowing things like being
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right is overrated. If I respond first with frustration, I'm going to lose every time. Or if you want to know how
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to handle the insults, the patronizing, the dismissive, the first thing you have
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to do is the mistake I've made multiple times. >> I see messages all the time in the
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comment section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
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could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel,
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that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing
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that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show in
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the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you've subscribed and uh
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thank you so much because in a strange way, you are you're part of our history
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and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank
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you. Jefferson Fisher. >> What do you do professionally? >> What is your How do you sort of
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characterize your profession? >> Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade. >> What does that mean?
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>> That means I help clients with legal needs. I'm board certified in personal
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injury. So, when people get hurt, I have trials. So, that means there are other attorneys that don't ever go to a
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courtroom. I go into a courtroom. >> Then you stand before a judge >> and a Yeah. You have a judge, you have a
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jury, you have a court reporter, a baiff, you have opposing attorneys. There are people in the room
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>> and you try and convince those people of your point of view to get a particular
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outcome. >> I advocate my client's facts in order to get the result that they want.
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>> So, why did you think it was important to write a book about conversation
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talking, getting what you want from the conversations we have with people we care about? Because I have seen time and
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time again that when I am training a client is what I call I'm preparing them
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for cross- examination for deposition they really don't know how to engage in
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conflict. And so I can't think of any other profession that is more entrenched
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in conflict maybe outside of a a boxer or some you know UFC something that deals with actual conflict and sits
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there and listens to it all than in the legal world in a trial attorney. And so,
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yeah, it's my job to advocate based on my clients facts to to get them the result that they want. The reason why I
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wrote that book and how that book applies is I took a lot of the lessons that I teach every one of my clients and
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put them in that book because I'm sitting there preparing them for cross-examination and realizing, oh,
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wait, they are deathly afraid of the conflict that they're in. is most of the
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time it's the most emotional, stressful, overwhelmed they are ever in their life. They've they're
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in a place they've never been. They don't know what it's like. They've only
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seen it on TV. And so it's my job to kind of take their hand and say, "This
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is how we're going to this is how we're going to do it." >> And how does that apply to the average
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person in their life? >> People think that the goal of any argument or any
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conversation is to win. And same for a trial. They say you want to win a trial. I've seen it so many times where I've
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gotten the result that they want and I've realized they still have the problem. They still wanted the apology.
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It all would have been resolved. There'd be no case if somebody had just said,
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"I'm sorry." And so you find that for the everyday person, it's my job now and
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and passion to be able to help them get into conflict and say, "I feel controlled in this. I feel confident in
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this now. I know exactly where I'm going in this because I've been there before
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and it is not a skill that comes naturally. It is a skill that is learned. And what do you think is the the sort of
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variance and outcome? How would my life change if I became an absolute master in
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this? You know, if I started from zero in this regard and then I became a master in dealing with conflict and
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dealing with difficult people and dealing with people that gaslight me and dealing with narcissists and all these
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kinds of things, why would my life be different and and in what domains? >> It's quite a lot.
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>> Yeah. First would be you would be equipped for outside of necessary expertise anywhere you wanted to be in
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life. People feel like communication is zero cost. It costs you something. If I'm not speaking up in that
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relationship, it costs my own sense of worth. If I don't say what needs to be
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said at work, I might have lost that promotion. I I everything the bill always comes due. If you can think of
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every time you didn't say the thing as like a receipt at a restaurant, every
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time it's it's a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose to
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either say something or not say something at the right time. And when you realize that if I can speak with
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confidence, well, that's me gaining a little bit more. If if I can say things
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with control, that's me gaining just a little bit more. A second benefit of it
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is that you realize being right is overrated. You can, if you tell me the sky is
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purple, knock yourself out, Stephen. It doesn't have to touch anything with me
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on on who I am or any of my opinions. We're we're opinion-making machines. I
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feel that's all on social media. It's to be set up to give your opinion on things
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that most of the time will rarely ever touch you. And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing
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I don't need to agree with you to understand you. If you have an opinion, I don't have to
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give one back. If you say something, I can choose not to say anything at all. And for a lot of people, that kind of
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blows their mind of, "You mean I don't have to respond?" No, you don't have to
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say anything. If somebody's talking really fast, you can talk really slow. They forget that you have full autonomy
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in it. And when you realize that it's you who's taking the wheel, you take the
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wheel of your life. >> But what about justice, Jefferson? >> Yeah. >> Do you know justice? Like this person
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has wronged me. They've said something wrong. They've I don't know, they
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tweeted at me something which is incorrect. I need to correct the record. Justice. I think we all have a sort of
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an an innate sense of justice. We want things to be fair and right. >> Yes, justice is an inherent value that
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is high priority for a lot of people for good reason. You might say, well, they've they've wronged me. This isn't
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right. That's all well and good. The question is going to be, how long do you
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want to carry it? How long do you want to carry that feeling? Because I can either choose to let it go. I can choose
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to say the thing. It's it's not at all my position that you should be stepping
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on eggshells and not say the thing and be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite.
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I'm saying you you say what you need to say in a way that is controlled, in a
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way that is signaling I don't I'm saying this because it needs to be said, but
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not because I have to say it. There's a lot of people who feel like, well, something needs to be said, but am I
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maybe you're not the one to say it. Maybe you you're the one that needs to
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maybe needs doesn't need to be said right now because if they're not willing
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to listen, well then what good is it ever do? What I like to say is, you know, for you to learn how to stand up
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for yourself, you first have to learn who's worth getting out of your chair for. I'm not going to be making big
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moves for something that is not at all worth my my time. So yeah, justice is absolutely worth it. But when you go,
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I'm the one that has to be carrying this. A lot of the times people do things to you and it's nothing to them,
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but yet it's everything to you and now you're just you're walking around for 20
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years with a comment that you could have said something way long ago and decided
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to drop it, but you you chose to to carry it and now you're the only one that has the the weight of that. If I'm
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dealing with someone who's in a position of power, someone who's a I don't know a
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senior to me at my company or even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in the sort of social
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pecking order and they're continually putting me down or being difficult or even a partner that I'm romantically
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involved in. >> What are the hallmarks of someone who has control over their communication?
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And what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn't like what is it that makes
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because when you speak it's very feels very composed and controlled. What are
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you intentionally doing to achieve that effect? I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm
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wanting you to come to my frequency. People get it wrong when they go big time to an 11. Big emotional reaction.
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If I have a big emotional outburst, am I signaling that I'm somebody who's
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trustworthy, reliable, and confident? Or am I signaling that I am out of my depth? I don't know what I want, and I
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am not to be believed. Right? because it's when you have an emotional outburst, everybody thinks this is
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you're just being emotional and they don't all of a sudden you're not
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credited for the truth of what you're saying. So sometimes emotions can get in
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the way of what needs to be said because of how you're delivering it. So when I
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say I'm going to talk to you in a way that's going to sound more controlled,
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it's I'm slowing down my words. I'm lowering my volume. Why? Because I want
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to pull you down here. And if I can pull you down here, well then we can talk about a lot harder
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things rather than feeling like I have to to rush. So if you want to talk to somebody in your relationship or
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somebody that's kind of higher up on the pecking order, so to speak, when you can
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show them that change doesn't bother you, when you can show them that you don't have to rush
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through this situation, people feel that you are giving them a sense of comfort.
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In other words, in conversation, everybody is looking for an anchor. When you go to a meeting, we listen to
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the person who's the anchor. They're usually the person who says a lot less,
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the person who's observing and listening rather than always giving their opinion
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about what you should be doing. Those are the people you don't listen to. As
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soon as you, if you've ever heard somebody say, "You know what I think you
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should do?" Does that ever make you want to do what they said? No. It's because
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they they've made it their idea. Now they're telling you what to do. If I
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were to say to you, you can't do that. What's the first thing you think of?
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Yes, I can. >> You know, it's it's the same kind of concept where it's me lowering to be the
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anchor in the conversation. >> And when you're in a case in front of a
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judge, is is there anything else that you're intentionally thinking about with, I don't know, your body language
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or the eye contact or any of these other things that you've learned over time are
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really important to get your message heard? >> I'm speaking like I've been there
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before. >> Explain that to me. walk into a room like you've been there before, as if
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everybody else is just visiting. So, what I do before every trial is I will go in there before the jury comes in,
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the judge comes in, everybody comes in and I say to myself, this is my living room and everybody else is just
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visiting. And so, I will touch the chairs. I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will
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feel that space and and feel it in a way of saying I have been here before. And when I can exude that kind of confidence
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that every juror that watches, all of a sudden it calms them down. They go, who can I rely on here? Who's more
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trustworthy? Who's more credible? Because that's what it is when you're
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when you're persuading, when you are advocating your case, it's who ultimately it comes down to who is more
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credible. And so when I can not get emotionally flustered, like I've seen it so many times where a judge
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rules against me and I act as though that's exactly what I wanted. You know, I am I'm acting as
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though, thank you, judge. And the jur the juryy's never going to know really
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any different. But I've seen on other attorneys where the judge rules against
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them and they go or they roll their eyes or they act frustrated. And what does the juror
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think? Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information or this must have been bad for their case. So, if you
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are always reacting to situations in which you have to be emotional with in a sense that you're not paying attention
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to who's watching you. >> Okay. On that point, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> So, when you say rules against you, you mean during the trial >> there's something you request, the judge
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might say no, and you say, "Thank you, judge." >> You act as if >> you're not defeated. you act as though
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that's exactly what you expected, right? It's it's the whole idea of that's not
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going to shake shake me. So, a lot of the times you'll see in real court, not
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TV, uh the judge will say, "Counsel, can you approach?" And both attorneys come
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up and they play some kind of noise cancellation to where only the the attorneys can hear the judge and the
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judge is making a decision at that time that we don't want to hear to let the
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jury know. Why? Because it's information that might sway the case in some way and
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not be as objective. And you have to pay attention to who's how the attorneys are walking away after
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that meeting's done. If somebody looks defeated, it just signals, oh, this is
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information that they must not want or they're objecting. I've seen so many
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cases where there's one attorney who objects to everything. It's my rule if I really want to have
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one objection the whole trial because to the jury, an objection is me keeping evidence out. So, if you always object,
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always object, always object, you're just signaling there's information I
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don't want you to hear. But if I have the confidence of knowing there's really
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one objection I know that's going to be material to my case, that way they know I've been there
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before. This is not something that's going to be making or breaking my case.
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It's it's all of credibility. If they don't trust me, they're not going to
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trust my client or my client's case. >> I think also it illuminates to me how
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much of a communication is nonverbal. Because in that example, you're just talking about how they're watching your
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body language and how you've received something, >> right? >> And the, you know, if you were
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defensive, you know, with all those objections or if you were defeated in the judge's ruling,
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>> that would work against you even though it's really nothing was said, like
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nothing significant was said. >> Yeah. It's it's a balance of knowing
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am I going to choose to react because of personal ego of I didn't get in my way or am I having
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the better mindset of I'm advocating on behalf of my client like I I've been
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let's say you're a witness and you're opposed to me and I'm asking you a
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question and I think you said something that's contrary contrary to the evidence
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that I have right here rather than me getting messed up saying are you are you sure about that, Mr. Barl. Let me go.
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You know, I have this piece of paper here and I get really worked up versus me putting you said something and I put
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my hand on the the paper. I said, "You sure?" Like all of a sudden, it's a
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moment of it kind of peaks their interest of like, "What's happening? Oh,
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this attorney knows. This attorney is somebody who's confident and has this what I call in the pocket presence. I'm
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not trying to be too forward. I'm not trying to be too pack. I'm just in the
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pocket like a a jazz band." Like everybody is on everybody's on beat and
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so I'm not I'm not rushing. I'm not slowing down. I'm just right in the
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pocket. >> In the pocket. Is that what people call aura? >> Swagger maybe as some people call it.
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Yeah. Aura. You you could have it for anything in any context. I like to say in the pocket because it just reminds me
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of the right timing is my timing. And that is I'm I'm going to match how I need to be of what's most
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authentic, what's most genuine to me. If you were to ask me to read something
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really fast, it wouldn't sound that great because that's not that's not my
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personality. And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold and I'm saying
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everybody here is just is just visiting. This is I've been here before. Let me
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y'all don't know where to go. Let me show you. And I I have that kind of
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mentality, people will listen to you forever. They'll they'll find that attractive,
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saying, "How does this person know where they're going? Well, I can I can follow
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them." It's just it's natural leadership to speak in a way that says, "I know
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where I've I'm going. I've been here before." >> I think that's probably good advice for
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people who um have important meetings or are going on dates. >> Yeah. >> To maybe get there ahead of time and
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familiarize yourself with the location. >> Yes. just so you you know you don't have
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the added anxiety of like stumbling through the physical environment like looking for the thing or trying to find
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the toilet or >> I don't know trying to figure out how to make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop
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onto the screen and all those kinds of things which we've all seen before. >> Yeah. I always anytime I go to speak um
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I I spoke this past week uh in Santa Barbara. >> I went ahead of time before my speaking
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time to to go I want to see what the room looks like. I want to see how how can I touch and say hi to the people
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that are working AV. How can I meet them? How can I if you really want to be better as a professional speaker? Talk
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to people in the crowd before you speak. >> Get to know people's names. It's going
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to naturally lower you. Get to know their names. Ask them why they're here. Say, "I'm so thankful that you're here.
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I'm really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today." when you when you can go in and
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touch people, it's a different sense than if I'm going into a room totally
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cold because you don't really have the vibe. You don't really know how that is.
00:19:05
So, yeah, going into a restaurant ahead of time, that's great. Not bringing your
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phone, even better. You know, getting able to be a sense of knowing I I've been here before. I want to
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welcome you to to my space. When we talk about um people that have aura, you must
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have met a lot of people in your career and your life generally that you felt had a sense of aura.
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>> Yes. >> What was it about them that gave them that aura? What is it? It's a frequency
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of peace for me. I think of people and you think of people in your life who you have felt most
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comfortable with. the person you feel like I I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down. Like for
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me, it was my my grandparents house. As soon as I walk in, it's a different feeling of time kind of stands still.
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They want to know about me. They want to know how am I doing? They It's It's that
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feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura and they just have a a glow about them. It's usually
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of they're not trying to prove anything to anybody. They just naturally exude
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that kind of charisma because of the security of knowing who they are and what they can do. And I guess what
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what's the opposite of that then? Sometimes it's easier to understand something by understanding the opposite.
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What would that look like? >> I would say that authentic people, authentic aura as you said, doesn't come
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from people securing themselves to you. That's for insecure people. The people who are authentic know that I
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am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you want to rush? I'm I'm in really no rush.
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I'm What happens today happens today. Is it really due today or could it be done
00:21:02
tomorrow if I I had to? if it's a slower pace. I I find that there is so much
00:21:08
kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things where and I'm from
00:21:14
Texas in the south. So it's it's kind of this knowing that the right time will come
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when that time is right and not having to push that. So if you want to look at the opposite, it's the it's the opposite
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of aura is insecure. It's named dropping. It's having to be friends immediately. It's having to prove to you
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how much money I have or what. It's everything else being everything to everybody else
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except myself. Like people who have a sense of style, their own sense of style naturally have
00:21:48
an aura. Why? Because they don't care what in the world anybody else is wearing. This is what I like. My
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daughter, all right, she's six. We tried setting out clothes. Forget it. She she
00:22:00
can come down in a leopard print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she wants. And you know what? She thinks she
00:22:06
is the flyest thing in the world. I mean that's I never want to take that out of
00:22:11
her. The people who have a sense of fashion, a sense of who I am and they didn't have to look cool to anybody
00:22:18
social standard, but it's do they really care what anybody else thinks? Usually
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the people with aura do not. Mhm. >> And sometimes when you come up against I
00:22:30
mean we were talking before we started recording about since this book's publication what have been people saying
00:22:36
to you what have the chapters um what are the chapters that have stood out the most to people and you mentioned that it
00:22:40
tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations dealing with difficult people.
00:22:46
>> Right. >> And one of the phrases that's been arguably overused a lot in society is
00:22:50
this phrase gaslighting. >> Yeah. And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting
00:22:56
is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own
00:23:02
reality, memory, or sanity. >> Mhm. >> Do people talk to you about gaslighting
00:23:06
a lot? >> Yes. >> Now that you've written this book? >> Yes.
00:23:09
>> And what do you think gaslighting? It's one of those things that's been used so
00:23:12
often that we almost have to like pause for a second just to define it again. >> Yes. Well, let me put it this way. The
00:23:17
difference between gaslighting and lying. Lying is a surface level of I could tell you instead of having a
00:23:28
silver cup, this is a red cup. Well, that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm
00:23:34
trying to alter your reality into mine. I'm I'm trying to make you question how
00:23:41
other people perceive you, including myself. How you perceive yourself. If anybody's ever questioned, "Am I crazy?
00:23:48
Am I the crazy one? Is it Is it me? Is it is everybody most likely you're probably being gas and here's the truth.
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I have been the gaslighter. Everybody has been the gaslighter whether they intentionally know it or
00:24:04
not. Because it's all that feeling of preservation of defensiveness of I don't
00:24:10
want people to know the truth of of what's happening in my life so I'm going
00:24:14
to mislead. In gaslighting, the intent is to alter your reality, to make you question what is real and what is not.
00:24:25
So, I might do something wrong and then I might come home and know that I've
00:24:28
done something wrong and intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality that makes them fundamentally
00:24:34
question what they know to try and spare me >> the critique or to control them.
00:24:40
>> Yes. To protect yourself. It's it's it's selfpreservation. Say, let's say you and your partner had
00:24:46
come home from a a dinner, all right? And you're just in a very critical mood
00:24:50
and maybe you're trying to to distract from something else that's going on in
00:24:54
your life and you're being critical of a story that she shared at dinner and
00:24:59
you're like, why did you why would you ever say that? And she goes, everything
00:25:03
was fine. You're like, fine. No, no, it was not. Did you not see how they reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know
00:25:10
you don't want to hear this, but everybody feels that, you know, you're a
00:25:15
little bit much. You and I and I'm I'm the one that needs to tell you this. You
00:25:20
see how you're all of a sudden is starting to alter how she feels in that moment. And I've seen the the other side
00:25:26
of that. And it is it is not at all something that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be
00:25:35
able to find a way to say okay what's how are we really walking in truth because you get so far away from radical
00:25:42
honesty in conversation. So gaslighting is is is not something to be taken lightly. But I will say people often
00:25:48
apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it as a sense of saying you're saying
00:25:54
something I don't like so you're gaslighting me. You know, we're in an
00:25:57
argument and you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings. Oh, that's gaslighting, you know, and and
00:26:01
they they they use it as an excuse. >> It's almost a form of gaslighting.
00:26:05
>> Exactly. That's exactly right. And it in a weird way, it can reverse that way.
00:26:09
But imagine me saying something hurtful to you and you go, "That really hurt my
00:26:13
feelings." I go, "That's just my boundary. I just I have a boundary about
00:26:15
everything." Or, "This is you're just gaslighting me." You know, I've never
00:26:18
met somebody who talked about their ex without saying my narcissistic ex. you know, I finally just got out of a
00:26:25
narcissistic relationship. It's never us, right? It's always the other It's
00:26:29
always the other person. And so, there's these words that we can kind of pepper
00:26:33
insult into sentences that are also still another form if we look at it, a form of self-preservation. Look at all
00:26:40
their bad and don't look at mine. >> Why is it important that we don't
00:26:43
gaslight others? And I asked this question because everybody listening now is probably going to want the answer to
00:26:48
the question, which is what what do I do about a gaslighter? Yeah. Yeah, >> but this is avoiding the responsibility
00:26:54
that we all have a like a tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else
00:27:01
>> and you know I don't think my audience is just the gaslighted >> statistically clearly you're also all
00:27:09
the gaslighters >> right >> so how do um why is it important that we
00:27:14
don't gaslight other people and is there a way for us to avoid you know getting into a situation where
00:27:19
our back's against the wall and we end up gaslighting one, >> it's important not to gaslight somebody
00:27:25
because every time you do, you're removing yourself further and further from the
00:27:31
truth, the truth of how you feel, the truth of your relationship. You are withholding
00:27:38
reality from that other person rather than having radical radical honesty about what's what's happening. So it it
00:27:45
degrades the relationship. It degrades another person's selfworth. And in many
00:27:49
ways, gaslighting steals their reality. It's not something you can give back
00:27:57
without a lot of work. It it's it's taking in some sense. Now, it can be
00:28:02
absolutely intentional and it can also be unintentional as a form of self-preservation.
00:28:09
And if you feel like you are being gaslit, the secret to knowing is slowing down
00:28:17
the conversation. If I am staying still in the conversation, meaning you could say
00:28:25
something to me that's a form of gaslighting, making me question, did I oh my goodness, did I really say that?
00:28:30
Did I really hurt their feelings? No, I did I and get into my head and I start kind of jumping around and trying to
00:28:37
change what I did. But if I were to say, "Stephen, I remember that differently."
00:28:43
And that's where I stop. Then you can try other things. And I'm going to repeat, "Yeah, I remember that
00:28:50
differently." It's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned
00:28:57
and misled by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around. And if I um if I think about I think
00:29:06
it's thinking about all the times where I've I think I might have gas gas gas
00:29:08
gas lit someone you know in relationships backs against the wall um and you're having an argument with
00:29:15
someone or >> it's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word like
00:29:19
just tell saying something that isn't necessarily true or is that is your perception of things versus like
00:29:24
gaslighting >> is the is the difference in your mind intention >> like is if I if I give my version of
00:29:30
reality >> yeah We were at that party. You said this thing. I saw the person roll their
00:29:36
eyes and then they walked away. I think they're really offended. I think you
00:29:38
offended them, >> right? >> What's the difference between that and
00:29:41
me gaslighting someone >> of between lying and gaslighting or it's >> Yeah. Like I'm trying to understand in
00:29:47
in that context you gave about going to a party, someone said something and then
00:29:50
they walk up. What's the difference between if that's how you saw reality
00:29:54
and you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone? >> It to the intention.
00:29:58
>> It's the intention. The tension is I'm the one in control, not you.
00:30:02
>> Okay. >> So, you are trying to control the narrative. You are trying to be both
00:30:08
director, producer, and actor >> for your own agenda. >> That's right. For your own film
00:30:13
>> and for control. >> I'm I'm the character in my own movie.
00:30:16
I'm the main character. And you need to behave this way. You need to believe
00:30:22
this. You need to act upon that. And so the more I can try to manipulate that reality
00:30:31
and what's so wild is it becomes so manipulated that you believe it too. Now
00:30:37
now that that falsehood has now become your fact in some sense that the really good liars convince themselves that that
00:30:45
lie is is the truth. Is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible
00:30:50
to being gaslit or to being victimized in any way with conversation in your view?
00:30:55
>> Anxious attachment. The ones that are they people who can't regulate by themselves,
00:31:01
they have to co-regulate. Meaning most of the time men are were good self-regulators. Just give me some time
00:31:12
by myself. Give me an evening. Give me an hour. Let me walk outside. I'll and
00:31:18
I'll regulate myself. Most of the time, it's been my experience. Women are not like that.
00:31:24
They co-regulate most of them. They they need you to also make them feel good. They can't be good if you're not good.
00:31:32
We're not good. I'm not good if if you're not okay. So, it's it's that
00:31:36
whole I'm not okay if you're not okay. And so in many ways they need you to be
00:31:42
able to calm down themselves and they they don't self-regulate as well. And so
00:31:50
the people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation.
00:31:55
People who are anxious anxious attachment meaning they they need uh are you okay? Are you good? Do you need
00:32:02
anything? Are you sure you're not okay? and versus the people who are more avoidant and three the the people who
00:32:10
are are typically more insecure. >> So do you think women get gas lit more
00:32:13
than men? >> Yes. >> But women still gaslight women, right? >> Of course.
00:32:20
>> But just men are more >> when you're talking relationships. When
00:32:23
you're talking relationships, that's my personal opinion is because from my
00:32:26
feedback from the people that have read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book, Yeah. It's majority
00:32:34
vast majority are are women. I'm not saying that's some empirical study on
00:32:38
it. But what I will say is women are just as capable of gaslighting and gas women can certainly gaslight
00:32:49
women. And it's I I'm saying this with the mindset of everybody gaslights
00:32:56
whether they know it or not. And they have in the past. Most likely they can think of a time in the past where they
00:33:01
did without knowing it. But it is that would be my opinion that most of the time men are the ones that do it to
00:33:09
women. >> Just reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse
00:33:12
in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting and coercive control than men. Men do report
00:33:19
gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms. Um, and as it relates to workplace data, surveys
00:33:26
from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their
00:33:30
memory doubted, or their experience dismissed. Women in male-dominated fields report
00:33:37
the highest rates of gaslighting, and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong
00:33:43
or misinterpret or that they're misinterpreting things. >> Sounds like that tracks.
00:33:50
And also in medical settings, women are less likely to be to be believed about their symptoms. Women's pain is
00:33:56
underestimated. Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders,
00:34:01
ADHD and autism. And the list goes on and on and on. If I had to say who does more, you know, I'm not trying to put
00:34:10
some kind of like headline of men do it more than women. In my experience, it tends to be the guy. And you know what
00:34:18
does that that information show me? It shows me that that sounds about right. I do think from the people that follow my
00:34:28
content, listen to my content because I stay very connected to my community of so many women say I feel like I'm in
00:34:36
this workplace and they are doubting my competence. They're doubting my ability
00:34:39
to make decisions. I'm not being believed. I'm putting I'm I'm being put
00:34:44
down. I'm whether it's not even their experience. it's just because of their
00:34:49
gender. And those are real those are real questions. Does that mean that that's gaslighting? Probably not all the
00:34:56
time. But for me to say, ah, that's that's a dumb complaint. Uh, you know,
00:35:01
that's just complaining. In many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem. Do you
00:35:07
know I am I've I've hired thousands of people over the last decade and I have
00:35:12
to say sometimes it's it's difficult to understand the plight of someone else
00:35:16
when you haven't lived their experience like you haven't been a woman or
00:35:20
whatever. It's like very difficult. So, you kind of just have to take them for
00:35:23
their word sometimes if you've not lived it yourself or you can look at data or
00:35:26
whatever else. >> And I do have to say that I have experienced >> male executives who were
00:35:35
extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% inconsistent as it relates to genders.
00:35:43
What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed
00:35:50
dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit really for no other reason than she was
00:35:56
a woman. And so it's a very real thing. And it's not every man, I have to say
00:36:00
this, but there is a certain particular type of person >> who for some reason in my experience
00:36:06
would see a woman in the in the workplace or in the high sort of upper echelons of the professional um uh
00:36:11
environment as being less than them just because of her gender. So when I hear, you know, what you're saying about women
00:36:18
are predominantly come, you know, coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting, it does kind of track with
00:36:22
what I've seen. I'll tell you this. I've never had a man come to me in all this
00:36:27
time that I've been from my book to my content this number of years ever say I
00:36:31
think I'm being gaslit. It is it has always been the woman. >> Never. >> Never.
00:36:38
>> What about the conversation around like dealing with narcissists? Cuz this feels
00:36:41
like it's kind of one and the same. The words are used in the same sort of vernacular but
00:36:46
>> Yeah. >> Do you have men coming to you saying that I think my partner's a narcissist?
00:36:50
Yes, you do. >> Yeah, that I do have. Yeah, it's always it's always they're married to one or
00:36:56
just got out of a relationship with one, but it's never them. >> And what what do you say to someone who
00:37:00
is dealing with an artist who is dealing with someone who repeatedly gas gaslights them? Let's say it's in the
00:37:04
context of work. >> Yeah. >> What are they meant to do? Quit their job.
00:37:09
>> Well, that is an option. So, let's not rule that out. >> Okay.
00:37:12
>> Um if it's if it's worth it to you because that's that's the question of
00:37:16
what's your what's your purpose here? And this is where you're going to be
00:37:18
forever. Then there's some things we need to put in place. But what are you to do? You are to limit the interaction
00:37:26
like limit the exposure. Talk less neutral statements. So if you can many ways you can just
00:37:36
limit the amount of physicality of I don't have to see you. I don't have to
00:37:40
communicate with you. I know you work three doors down but I don't have to be
00:37:45
your best friend and you certainly don't have to be mine. Two is understanding
00:37:49
the game that you're in. It's a it's a game for narcissists of praise or
00:37:54
provoke. Meaning, if I am not showering you with praise, then the narcissist will turn to provoke in order to create
00:38:03
an argument for the same effect. They they delight in frustration just as may just as much as they delight in your
00:38:10
praise because they get the same type of control. I have seen so many expert witnesses in my field that are that I
00:38:19
what I would term are narcissists. They they they can never possibly be wrong. They they don't do empathy. And again,
00:38:27
this is me with the understanding of hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies. You know, we all have
00:38:33
narcissistic traits and narcissism is a diagnosible condition that you can have.
00:38:38
I think more people would qualify more than they think. But how do you handle it daytoday is know knowing what kind of
00:38:46
game you're in and it's a game you're just not going to play. I know I don't
00:38:49
have to say anything to that person. Two, I'm going to limit my distance to them. And three, I'm going to use
00:38:55
neutral statements. I'm going to use neutral statements like that's good to
00:38:58
know. Thanks for sharing. Noted and things that they can't grab on to and continue to have in a conversation. When
00:39:07
you think of like the hallmarks of of of a really really one of these types of people, what are the way the
00:39:14
characteristics that I could should be looking out for? If I'm dealing with one
00:39:18
such person who is is going to try and manipulate me, it's going to try and gaslight me. What what do they do? They
00:39:25
can never be happy for anybody but themselves. They can't be happy for you. They can't
00:39:30
be happy for other people. These are the type that if you were to say, "Hey, did
00:39:35
you see that Stephen just got this award? Isn't that so great? You just nominated for whatever." And they go, "I
00:39:39
mean, that's I guess that's fine. You know, I when I did this," and they start
00:39:43
talking about themselves. They can never be happy for somebody else. They can't be happy for you. It's
00:39:49
they have to find some way to turn the conversation of why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them that the world
00:39:56
was against them and they couldn't get it, but they were just as deserving. I
00:39:59
mean, I guess that's fine. And I mean, you know, I do this, but nobody nobody
00:40:03
listens. Nobody really cares. They find that they have a very victim mentality. So, two is a victim mentality.
00:40:08
Everything happens to them in some way. And three, they can't feel for other
00:40:13
people. They don't do emotion. It's it's always about the perception of what
00:40:20
others would think. They're very very sensitive to how others might portray them. So, they're going to give you a
00:40:28
different view than they give other people. And so, the couple might be terrible,
00:40:35
but for a narcissist, they're going to put on face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else. And everybody
00:40:40
goes, "You you must be so blessed to be married to that person." And you're
00:40:43
going, "You kidding me? They're they're fooling everybody." And it's a very
00:40:47
helpless position. >> Have you ever had a narcissist try and pray on you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the legal
00:40:54
field, man. Expert witnesses have opinions to them that are unquestionable. You can't this is their
00:41:01
opinion and nobody else could ever argue with it when I have another expert who says just the opposite. So a lot of the
00:41:07
times they are very condescending you know that's fine and they have their opinion and this is all there is and how
00:41:16
dumb of you to ever question me. And usually what gives it away is if I feel like this is somebody that okay they're
00:41:24
they can't be reasonable. They're never going to give an inch on what's
00:41:27
reasonable. I will ask this. I'll say this is typically in a deposition. I'll say and
00:41:33
you think the juryy's going to like that. And or you think other people are going
00:41:37
to agree with you and all of a sudden they kind of change in an instant to be able to match what the jury is going to
00:41:44
think. So, if I were to say, and you think and you think that's okay, and you
00:41:47
think others are going to find that okay, and you think that the jury when they hear this, they're they're all
00:41:52
going to agree with this very hardline opinion. I've seen it every time. Or they that's it's only when I reference
00:42:00
other people, the presentation of themselves to other people that they kind of put on a a show.
00:42:07
>> Why? because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything. They need everybody to like
00:42:17
them, to fawn over them. They they want their idea to to be the best. And so they will manipulate the situation to be
00:42:25
the chameleon to to make sure that everybody loves them at least in in their mind. It's not a it's not a
00:42:32
reasonable thought. So they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable even though they could
00:42:38
have admitted to that you know two hours into the deposition. >> Do they tend to talk more or less than
00:42:44
the average person in the room? >> Much more. >> Is there a thin line between just being
00:42:49
insecure and being a narcissist? Because you know one of the things I was thinking about is you said earlier that
00:42:54
they tend to bring everything back to themselves. And I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were
00:42:59
having a conversation about your book doing really really well, the first response to that would be their mention
00:43:05
of their own book like they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them. And I was
00:43:08
wondering some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure and that they just,
00:43:13
you know, they're a search for validation. So I'm wondering where where you think the line might be between sort
00:43:18
of narcissistic behavior and just like extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a
00:43:22
line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism. >> Both can be true. You know, I' I'd say
00:43:26
that not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure. >> Um, I would I would say that if I had to
00:43:36
give some kind of line, it would be the interest for growth. Insecure people are looking for ways to
00:43:45
grow and to secure and attach. Narcissists, they're not looking for anybody to attach on to. They're looking
00:43:54
for people to support them, you know, to please them. And so it they have no interest in growth. They to them they've
00:44:03
learned all they've have to learn. I I am the best. I I cannot improve anymore.
00:44:07
That to me would be the difference. >> When you dealt with narcissists in your
00:44:11
own life and in the courtroom, what is the reason why they couldn't prey on you? What did you do as defense
00:44:18
to stop their games, their typical games working on you? I don't chase their
00:44:23
words. Often, one of the biggest things I see wrong in conversation is a narcissist will, same for a
00:44:32
gaslighter, they'll dig a hole. All right? And then they expect you to fill it.
00:44:39
Meaning, they're going to say something to frustrate you and you go, "No, no,
00:44:42
that's not what happened. Don't you remember?" and you start chasing it and
00:44:45
then they just dig another hole and you keep going and you keep going and you're
00:44:50
exhausted because all you've been doing is trying to plug holes. You're not
00:44:53
having a real conversation. And when I can give it a very clear definition, a very clear signal of
00:45:02
noted, you know, I'm just going to stay right there. I'm going to see I'm going
00:45:06
to put down the shovel and stay right there with them. and maybe I'll say something as neutral as got it. I don't
00:45:15
have to chase it. I don't have to say anything. And and to me, the the people
00:45:20
that have those narcissistic traits, once they realize that they're going to
00:45:23
have no game with you, that you're not going to play, they find somebody else.
00:45:28
They find somebody. If you've ever had somebody come to you and they're the
00:45:33
more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem. They come with you and they have this
00:45:38
problem. and you go, I I just I can't right this moment. I will. And 10 minutes later, what's happened? They
00:45:43
don't have that issue. They've already gone to talk to somebody else. >> I was watching uh Dame Dash on the
00:45:48
Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've seen it, >> but it's really
00:45:51
>> another Breakfast Club, >> but it's it's Dame Dash is on there
00:45:54
because he he was um he filed for bankruptcy and Charlemagne is sat there >> and Charlemagne is I've actually
00:46:00
interviewed both of them, both Dame and Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is very relaxed and every once in a while just
00:46:07
tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke. And then Dame Dash is like very like hotaded and like trying to prove
00:46:15
prove all the reasons why he's not broke and like really like you know gassing
00:46:18
him. And I it was it was an interesting it's an interesting video to watch. I
00:46:22
think it's the more recent one that came out within the last year because it does
00:46:26
show in my view how to deal with someone who has a very has a significant ego. >> Yeah.
00:46:33
>> Which is Charlemagne just never changes state. Like no matter what the volume
00:46:38
is, no matter how much emotion, no matter when he starts calling him some quite personal insults, Charlemagne's
00:46:46
demeanor, his tone, his posture, >> yeah, >> doesn't change. >> Unbothered. unbothered. And you can see
00:46:52
it's super triggering that you just can't get to this guy. Like it looks
00:46:56
like Dame is like really annoyed that he and he tries to say more offensive things. He calls you're a you're this,
00:47:00
you're that, the other. >> And it's funny cuz I was watching it this morning and it for me it kind of
00:47:04
tracks with a lot of the stuff you're saying about like just not going with them.
00:47:07
>> Yeah. >> Just not following them where because they want you to go somewhere and
00:47:12
there's a certain conflict they want to get in with you and if you just kind of
00:47:15
refuse and just stay anchored to whatever your point of view is, it's it's funny to watch. They want to push
00:47:20
you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. My my dad I can remember growing up I'd be in the passenger seat. He's
00:47:26
driving >> and you ever had it where somebody you're in the passenger seat and
00:47:31
somebody's just rearing the bumper right on them >> and and I and I'd be looking in the side
00:47:36
mirror. I'm like I kind of start stressing out for him. You know, somebody's really riding the bumper, you
00:47:42
know, right behind him. >> And I mean just like clockwork. what he would do, we have shoulders on our in on
00:47:48
the roads there in Texas, and rather than trying to speed up or get mad, he would just kind of pull over to the
00:47:54
shoulder and he would say this every time. He'd say, "Go on with your bad
00:47:57
self." Every time he go, "Go on with your bad self in the rearview mirror."
00:48:00
Like, that's how unbothered he was by that of I feel like so many people get
00:48:06
road rage as so many people talk out loud to the cars while they're while they're driving.
00:48:12
And he it just never got him worked up. And realizing my value and my worth of knowing who I
00:48:20
am is not at all determined by where you feel I should go. It goes back to that idea of if you want to tell me
00:48:29
the sky is purple, knock yourself out. You know, I I don't have to be right and
00:48:35
you don't have the ability to to push me. I can move and you have your own. I
00:48:40
I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't have to match anybody else's. So when
00:48:45
somebody is unbothered, it's not because they don't care. It's not for lack of
00:48:50
care. It's an understanding. It's discernment of knowing I know who I am in this moment and why
00:48:59
in the world would I try to be anybody else? >> Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all
00:49:04
be untriggerable? It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure. >> It's interesting because again, just
00:49:10
reflecting on that interview I watched this morning, when Dame Dash calls Charlemagne something really, really
00:49:15
offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlemagne to see his reaction to figure out if
00:49:22
what Dame Dash just said was true. And do you see what I'm saying? So he he turned to him and said, "You're ex,
00:49:28
>> right?" >> And then Charlemagne just kind of laughed and like
00:49:32
>> it just it was like water off a duck's back. So immediately as the viewer I go,
00:49:35
"Well, that can't be true then because Charlemagne doesn't seem to care."
00:49:38
>> Exactly. Well, it's it's not the lack of a care. It's it's just the opposite. It's all the
00:49:46
more care of knowing who he is. So, if I were to tell you right now, I hate your
00:49:55
purple shirt. It's the most ugliest purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen.
00:50:00
Like your shirt is so ugly in that purple. Does it affect you whatsoever? >> No, because I'm not wearing a purple
00:50:07
shirt for anyone that's an apple. >> That's right. That's a good point.
00:50:11
Right. But you see how you you already know the characteristics of of you. You already know what you're wearing.
00:50:18
>> And it's not just your clothes. I'm I'm wearing my confidence. I'm wearing
00:50:23
everything that your parents, your your loved ones have instilled and put on you. I am I am wearing the armor of my
00:50:30
faith. I I am I have all these other things that I'm wearing. And if you want
00:50:35
to say my shirt's purple, that that doesn't affect me at all because that's
00:50:39
that's not who I am. And so so often people get mixed up of arguing about no,
00:50:45
I don't have a purple shirt on. >> When why would you ever argue with that?
00:50:51
They they it's that quote by Abraham Lincoln that I love. if never argue with a fool because an
00:50:59
onlooker >> can never know the difference, right? And so it's it's knowing no, I I know
00:51:06
exactly who I am and what I'm wearing. >> And this sort of speaks to the fact that
00:51:10
your reaction determines how onlookers will interpret everything that's happening.
00:51:17
>> Like, you know, >> oh, the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh. I
00:51:21
mean, what does it do? It I mean, it it it infuriates them, right? But when the same thing with a bully, a bully says
00:51:28
something to you that they know is meant to hurt you. And if I were to turn around and say,
00:51:35
"Did you say that to to embarrass me?" I mean, what are they going to do? They
00:51:39
they could say yes, they could say no. But either way, you're realizing I'm not
00:51:43
going to get any reaction. What you're showing them is for you to do this, it's
00:51:47
just not going to be fun for you. It's going to be zero fun whatsoever for you.
00:51:51
And so, they'll find that with somebody somebody else. It's it's always your
00:51:55
reaction that's going to determine how the conversation goes forward. >> There's a lot of people listening right
00:52:02
now that are a long way away from that. Very easily triggered. >> Yeah. >> Seeking justice, you know, whatever it
00:52:09
might be. For those people, is it like a muscle they have to build or is there what is the journey to getting to this
00:52:15
level of sort of mastery? >> It's a discipline. It is in the same way that people invest in so many other
00:52:22
things in our life. We invest in our health. We invest in self-help books. We invest in the podcasts that we listen
00:52:29
to. It is the same. You have to invest in your communication. We don't get taught in school. We don't, you know, I
00:52:36
I went to law school. People think I learned this in law school. No. Law school teaches you how to read the law.
00:52:41
It doesn't teach you how to read people. You had to. To me, if you are somebody
00:52:47
that is in a position of expertise and to share something, it either came at great personal cost or you're making it
00:52:53
up like it it it is something that you have learned, right? >> It's true. And so I mean whether it's
00:53:01
through skill, knowledge, training, it's I've you want to know how that I know
00:53:06
these things because I've lived it. You know, I I have been on the bad side.
00:53:09
I've been on the good side. And it's it is not it's never something that's just
00:53:15
going to come to you. >> We are emotional creatures and we're hormonal creatures.
00:53:20
>> Mhm. So, how do how do you think about our emotions, our hormones, our health,
00:53:24
our physical, cognitive state as it relates to like walking into the courtroom and being ready? Like how much
00:53:30
of it, you know, because if I've had zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know,
00:53:33
hungry and whatever else and I'm had an argument, I'm stressed about something,
00:53:37
it's going to be significantly harder to show up and be a great communicator and
00:53:40
win the argument against somebody, >> right? >> So, do you think about these things
00:53:45
>> all the time? I mean, the emotions are are right there connected to the words.
00:53:49
And what do you how do you prepare to be ready for battle? >> It's an emotional awareness of how I'm
00:53:57
feeling and also how the other person is because if I just respond me Yeah. If I respond
00:54:04
to their emotional reaction, I'll miss it every time. Same thing in relationships. If I respond to the
00:54:11
reaction, I'll lose that moment to actually speak to the need. So even in the courtroom for me, if I know that I'm
00:54:20
a little sleepy, I know I'm a little hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know
00:54:24
what? I can either try and pretend that I'm not. Or I might get up in front of
00:54:29
the jury and say, "Good morning, everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a
00:54:32
little grumpy. I didn't need all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?"
00:54:35
And everybody starts to kind of nod. And now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to
00:54:39
my words, but now to the feeling. And now you trust me more. I trust you more because I'm being more authentic.
00:54:47
>> And do you think people should do that in their own interpersonal relationships
00:54:51
which is just call out their state? >> Absolutely. Because perfection is not
00:54:55
relatable. Struggle is emotions are. If I were to come to you and say and you say how are you and I go good
00:55:03
everything's good when it is not. Am I being authentic or am I being fake? But
00:55:08
if I were to say, "Let me tell you, I've had a morning and it's tested me in a
00:55:13
way I was not expecting and my mind is just not here." Does that make you trust
00:55:18
me more or trust me less? >> Trust me more >> every time. >> So, when you can share your struggles
00:55:23
with people, I'm not talking about your deepest inner desire struggles. I'm
00:55:27
saying, let me put it this way. Sierra and I check in with each other every morning. It's my wife.
00:55:35
And it's only about 10 minutes after she drops the kid off, uh, kids off. And
00:55:42
we kind of run through how we're doing. And the number one thing she asks me or
00:55:46
tells me, he goes, "You told me a lot about what you're doing. You haven't
00:55:50
told me about how you're feeling." And that's that's the truth of the default,
00:55:55
I think, of a lot of men and a lot of people. I'm going to tell you what's
00:55:57
going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm doing. I haven't told you a lot about
00:56:01
how I'm feeling. And we store all that stuff up because it's still there. But
00:56:06
if I can share with you, what is my struggle? What's happening? Not just the good, but more importantly
00:56:13
the the bad. I mean that it's always going to bring that authenticity into the play.
00:56:20
>> Women and men are very different in many ways. And >> yeah, >> we're very different in many ways. Men
00:56:26
are I I don't know. It feels like men just, you know, and again, I'm I'm
00:56:30
stereotyping here, so it's not all men and >> of course people are different, but just
00:56:34
speaking generally, the stereotype is that men are a typically a bit more emotionally composed or should I say
00:56:42
flat and women have uh more emotional fluctuations. One could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk
00:56:49
about why that might be, etc., etc. I've had many scientists here talk to me
00:56:52
about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts how someone feels. But what this
00:56:56
means in our romantic relationships is sometimes we meet each other on very different wavelengths.
00:57:03
>> Yeah. >> So in my relationship, my partner's probably seen me cry once,
00:57:08
>> right? >> In seven years, maybe twice, but probably once. I've probably seen her cry
00:57:17
500 times, maybe more. >> Yeah. >> So it feels it almost feels like I'm
00:57:22
just going to be completely honest because I just think it's helpful. So you can [ __ ] me up online if you want.
00:57:25
But I it sometimes feels like we're we're a different species. >> Like the way that I interact with my guy
00:57:33
friendss and the way that the sort of wavelength that my romantic partner my my my girlfriend operates on are very
00:57:41
very different. So it's very easy to like misunderstand. And we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be
00:57:46
more emotional and more I don't know men need to change how the how they are.
00:57:51
Yeah. Because it's the problem. But what about the like what about the other
00:57:56
side of that which is do do women also need to think about do we need to meet in the middle is what
00:58:09
I'm saying >> there certainly is space to meet in the middle >> like who's right in that I don't know is
00:58:14
is is there a person that's right in this configuration am I meant to be way
00:58:18
more emotional and be or or is she meant to be way more composed cuz I I think that's often how both sides feel. They
00:58:25
feel like, why aren't you coming to my wavelength on this issue? But I think
00:58:28
here's what you're missing. She would be much more composed if you would be more
00:58:31
emotional. >> And so a lot of the times what I find in my own marriage is when I show emotion,
00:58:41
the more composed she is. >> I mean, if I start screaming and crying, I I think my girlfriend's
00:58:46
>> I'm not saying screaming. I'm I'm saying show emotion. What kind of emotion
00:58:51
>> of being in it with her? >> And what does that look like? >> That means you're going to say things
00:58:56
that make her feel it. There's a difference if I just go static. That's what happens to me a lot. Uh truthfully,
00:59:04
is let's say we're in an argument about something or something came up and see
00:59:10
emotional about it. If I dismiss it, okay, this is so dumb really right now. This is because arguments never come at
00:59:17
the most opportune time. They come at the worst possible time. Yeah, that's hello. That's all relationships. If I
00:59:23
dismiss it, right, does that make her come closer to me or further away from me? And if I'm pushing her further away
00:59:29
from me, why would she not be more emotional? Why why would she why would she not be further away from me if I
00:59:36
dismiss that? For every woman to be more emotional as a man, tears are not necessary.
00:59:44
connection is being in it is saying things that make her feel that you're you're genuinely feeling it. The
00:59:51
difference I find with men and what I struggle with is I can say that I'm sad.
00:59:56
I have a hard time expressing sad. I can say that I'm really regretful. I have a
01:00:01
hard time expressing that. I think that is something that happens a lot with most
01:00:09
relationships and I think that happens a lot with men of we were emotional and we
01:00:14
got taught early that you you were not to cry. We I couldn't even tell you how many times I ever saw
01:00:20
my dad cry. >> I think this is it. The modeling we had as well is my dad was either angry or
01:00:27
completely static. And when I say angry, he was very very rarely angry. But but when I saw him engage with my mom on an
01:00:34
emotional level, it would be >> him yelling back, >> right? >> If he wasn't yelling back, he was
01:00:41
completely just like he was just very calm, static, emotional. There was no in between.
01:00:46
>> Yeah. It's it all comes down to repair. How quickly you get to repair. That
01:00:54
means can I validate the feeling that she has? Validation is repair. It's not weakness. It's
01:01:03
repair. In my world, relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart
01:01:10
because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened and it didn't. You just chose not to. Or you
01:01:19
could have said, "I'm sorry," but you withheld it. I could have chose to
01:01:22
validate how you're feeling, but I said that's stupid. And it's it's those the
01:01:26
hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden, no wonder your your world's apart because you chose in
01:01:33
those little bitty moments not to do the repair because you said, "Ah, this is so
01:01:36
stupid. This so small." Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly. And so
01:01:42
when you can validate those concerns, even when you say she's being emotional,
01:01:48
you're not. When you go into that static mode, when I go into that static mode, it's a
01:01:53
choice by me to do something different, not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive, not find ways to try and
01:02:02
convince her that she shouldn't feel this way, but if I validate, if I say things like, I can see how you feel that
01:02:10
way. If that's how you interpreted it, you know what? I don't blame you for
01:02:15
feeling that way. I I can see that. That sounds scary. That sounds frustrating. If I can choose that it's it's this like
01:02:24
this isn't the key for me and trust me I'm talking to myself here. >> Yeah.
01:02:28
>> Right. Because every every guy I feel like can be like, "Okay, this is right."
01:02:32
And if I can make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration just for a
01:02:38
moment, put aside my personal frustration and validate the feeling and say words
01:02:46
that speak to her need, the need to feel heard, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like she's not being too much.
01:02:55
Then all of a sudden, it all shrinks. And you know what? my frustration kind of goes away. Why? Because everything's
01:03:02
better now. We've we've had moments of repair. And then if I still am really
01:03:06
frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey, can I can I bring up something to you that you said that's really bothering
01:03:12
me? And then you do it. >> How as a man do you know that you're not setting a bad precedence for the future?
01:03:21
And what I mean here is >> Yeah. if I constantly, you know, justify how she's feeling and I and I seek
01:03:27
repair and then when she's happy, I just let it go. There's I think sometimes
01:03:31
there's a worry as a man that if you just lay down and take everything, then
01:03:37
you're just going to get more stuff in the future. Like you're setting a bad
01:03:40
precedence for the future of this relationship where no, sometimes actually no, I wasn't in the wrong or oh
01:03:44
no, I did I I do disagree with this. >> Right? And I think I've observed a lot
01:03:49
of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends where because they like never stood up for themselves,
01:03:54
they're now like living in a prison, >> right? >> They like never stood up for themselves.
01:03:59
>> Yes. >> And so they're they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control
01:04:03
and they, >> you know, even when you're listening to this, there's probably people you can
01:04:06
think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term and now over the long term,
01:04:12
he has a really hard one. >> Yes. >> And again, men and women, >> of course. So this is the balance I'm
01:04:18
trying to understand in your view is you know when do you pick the fight and when
01:04:21
do you say no that's not versus just laying down and taking it. This is quite per this is quite personal
01:04:28
to me as well because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad, he
01:04:32
never he never chose to fight. And then I look I look at how that played out over 20 years and I'm like, damn, it's
01:04:38
completely changed me because it means that I will now go through the conflict >> and stand up for myself when I hit a
01:04:47
place where I'm like that I'm not going to be able to honor that for you for the
01:04:51
next 30 years. I will stand my ground. Do you know if there's like an area where um we might my say my girlfriend's
01:04:57
unhappy about a certain thing I do. >> Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm
01:05:01
going to be able to promise to not do that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years, if I if I'm unwilling to change, Yes. I
01:05:07
have to stand my ground because if I concede today, it's hell tomorrow. >> Yeah. What what I'm hearing what I'm
01:05:14
hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my rights, fear of my >> dominance. >> Yeah. Like my freedom being Yeah. Well,
01:05:26
it's it's you want to hear the probably the number one word you'll hear with
01:05:31
relationships that are on the brink. It's caged. Men feels caged. You know, the man feels caged. And really all that
01:05:39
is, it's a lack of confidence of knowing if I am willing to do something different,
01:05:52
then I can't have anything else. So it's it's it's thinking in terms of
01:05:59
zero sum. See, both can be true. I can you can still validate how she's feeling
01:06:07
and not at all touch what you still know to be true. So you can still disagree with her, but every time we go into a
01:06:14
conversation, we walk in with a need, a need to feel loved, understood, it is always depth. Like you think of um like
01:06:23
a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if when she was small and she screamed or she cried or told me no, still tells me
01:06:33
no, you know, of all these things and I just said no. Are you kidding me? You're
01:06:37
going to tell me and I you're crying right now? Really? And I get all upset when she screams. But with kids, we
01:06:43
don't do that. We go she's hungry. She's tired. She's scared. M >> and we just forget that we're all just
01:06:50
big kids and we all have those like hidden needs underneath us and so you still can stand your ground and say
01:07:00
so let's run it. So let's say for example >> an example a specific example from my
01:07:04
ex-girlfriend I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message cuz there's
01:07:07
something going on my in my business back in the UK and I was in I was in Asia at the time.
01:07:11
>> Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any
01:07:16
phones in bed ever. I could never touch my phone in the bedroom. >> Right?
01:07:20
>> And as I thought this through, I thought, God, I thought about all the scenarios where I might need to touch my
01:07:24
phone in the bedroom. And what would I I realized that what would end up happening is I just wouldn't come into
01:07:30
the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in the in the toilet or the shower or I just like I wouldn't come to bed if I
01:07:35
needed to do something on my phone, >> right? And so the conversation went
01:07:39
where I was like I I realized in this moment I had to kind of like not lay down on this issue because I would
01:07:45
disappoint her in the future. >> I was setting myself up to fail in the future if I if I accepted this and made
01:07:51
her some kind of promise or you know agreed that we I wasn't going to touch my phone ever again in the bedroom.
01:07:57
>> And so that was one such example where I'm like I think I actually need to
01:08:00
stand my ground a bit here or I'm setting myself up for a future expectation I can't meet.
01:08:05
So in that moment, what did you think her need was? >> Her need was connection. And she was
01:08:10
interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a disconnection in some way.
01:08:15
>> And could it possibly be perceived as that? >> 100%. >> Okay.
01:08:19
>> But it wasn't the phone. It was the it was the it was me not it was her not
01:08:25
feeling connected I in my view it at that moment in time in that particular week because I was so busy in that
01:08:31
particular week that I think she was trying to find a a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express the
01:08:40
feeling of disconnection. So that's why I look back on it and go it was actually
01:08:42
something else that was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in time probably.
01:08:45
>> Right. But that was an example where like I if id conceded it would have it
01:08:51
would not have been sustainable. There would have been arguments in the future. >> I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying
01:08:56
there are times that if you want the key to the relationship, it is putting her comfort over your inconvenience.
01:09:04
>> So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice. Do you
01:09:07
think? >> Well, you've already kind of named it. one, she's it's not you saying what the
01:09:14
wrong thing to say is, "Well, you were just on your phone. I mean, you just I
01:09:18
mean, you're on your phone all your time. You're on the phone all the time.
01:09:20
What are you talking about?" And you start arguing because now you're you're
01:09:24
responding to the reaction. You're not addressing the need. If you were to slow
01:09:28
down and say, "Look, I I still want to be connected with you. Is there any kind of
01:09:36
place where I can still take care of what I need to take care of?" and also
01:09:41
be connected to you. Or if there's a situation where you say, "Well, what
01:09:45
about this?" Before I just get my phone and grab it, I'm going to tell you what I'm doing
01:09:50
ahead of time or I'm going to ask. Maybe that's where it is. You don't want
01:09:55
to ask, "Hey, I Greg is supposed to email me some slides or a deck or whatever. Can I
01:10:04
check that out real quick?" You hear how she's probably going to say yes. But the
01:10:07
fact that you are saying, "Hey, I'm acknowledging our connection right now."
01:10:12
And see, it might make you uncomfortable saying, "No, I don't I don't like
01:10:14
anybody telling me what to do. I don't have to I don't want to report to
01:10:17
anybody." Okay, that's that's fine. Well, then you just know that connection
01:10:22
is always going to be weak. And so, you you're signing your name to that. I don't think I mean there's I have lots
01:10:28
of thoughts on phones in houses and where they should go, but if you were to have instead of arguing the what are you
01:10:37
talking about? You're on your phone all all the time. And instead said, I can see how that would make you feel
01:10:45
like I'm not paying attention to you. And letting her respond to that and you
01:10:49
saying, look, I don't want to me being on this. This is not at all me trying to
01:10:53
signal that I'm not trying to be here with you. I'm trying to escape on you
01:10:58
and have that conversation. And that's where you can say it is important to me
01:11:02
that I have these things and for me to be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain. I need to take care of
01:11:07
these things. What's the best way that I can do that? I think then that's when
01:11:12
you actually are able to have a conversation of like let's make a g game plan that makes sense because
01:11:18
if you you put your inconvenience over her comfort she will always discredit that to you your bank account will
01:11:26
always continue to to go low and if but if you say look I I'm willing to do a little bit of inconvenient
01:11:34
things to make you feel better make you more comfortable I mean that that only grows your account I mean that that when
01:11:42
when you have a relationship that can last a whole lot longer. >> I think I'm slightly traumatized because
01:11:49
um I I think the model that I had of relationships meant that someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your
01:11:57
freedom. >> Yes. >> Until you are virtually powerless. >> I think that's a lot of guys. And
01:12:03
>> I've felt that. I've certainly felt that. >> Yeah. So I I try and fight back and
01:12:07
sometimes I think I overdo it. And this is what this is one such example where actually objectively when I hear myself
01:12:12
say she asked me not to like be in on my phone in bed. I'm like well it's kind of
01:12:17
a reasonable request to be honest. Like the bedroom can be a place where we just
01:12:20
like go on the phones. I could just do it in my office and then come to bed when I'm ready.
01:12:23
>> Right. >> But I think my I get my backup because I've just got so many examples of men
01:12:28
who like didn't stand up for themselves. >> Yes. >> And then were rendered powerless down
01:12:31
the line. So it's like if I give you this then tomorrow you're going to say
01:12:34
maybe you can't be on my phone in the kitchen >> and then maybe I can't be on my phone in
01:12:38
the bathroom. And then so I just thought, well, if I just stand up for myself here, then I just hold hold off.
01:12:43
>> What I'm not at all saying is that the guy go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And
01:12:47
then she asks for something. I go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And you just
01:12:49
you're super passive with everything. That's where I think you do feel like
01:12:52
you're just you look around, you you've given up everything to where you don't
01:12:56
feel like I I have anything to to grab on to. >> I want to throw in another example that
01:13:00
a lot of people relate to. A lot of men have like a hobby with with their guy friends, right?
01:13:04
>> Like watching the football, talking [ __ ] in a group chat. I think it's so
01:13:09
important to defend those things. >> Absolutely. >> Even for her attraction to you.
01:13:13
>> Like I think I I have no evidence to say that this is true. It's just a feeling.
01:13:17
I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I'll stand up for
01:13:20
myself in certain in certain areas and that I'll say, "No, no, no, no. This is
01:13:23
me time. This is for me." >> I agree. >> And I can imagine the opposite, the
01:13:26
pacivity or kind of rolling over as being a really like unattractive thing. >> Absolutely. I I think where you are
01:13:34
laying yourself down or just rolling over that is that can be very unattractive that it's you need to have
01:13:40
a backbone. At the same time, you can't be so extreme that your way is the only
01:13:44
way. But when you choose to say, "No, no, this is I'm going to willing to take
01:13:47
a stand here." Then that's I think to me it sends a signal of strength, right?
01:13:52
Strength of mind, strength of will. But for me, when you have those things that are your hobbies, the things that you
01:13:58
really like, a sign of a good relationship is that she's going to be happy, you get to do those because they
01:14:04
make you happy. Even though she might hate it and think it's annoying and it's
01:14:08
weird and you know, you're taking up that space in the garage and whatever, but if it makes you happy and they know
01:14:15
that this is your space and this is your time because I I you have to have those
01:14:20
things that fill you up, right? And the truth is the marriage isn't enough. The
01:14:26
kids aren't enough. Your job's aren't enough. You have to have things that
01:14:30
personally for you by yourself. If your thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks, go do it. You know, to to be able
01:14:37
to fill yourself up. If you if like I I I know for parents, early parents, there's this this mindset of I
01:14:46
have to be with my kid all the time. I I can't ever leave my kid. That I need to
01:14:49
just be there. But what you find is you'll be so much better when you actually go take care of
01:14:56
yourself and go on that guy trip, uh, go play that round of golf or whatever it is that's actually going to feed you and
01:15:03
fill you up and then I can be there for you all the more. >> I think some people's partners,
01:15:09
they don't they're not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their
01:15:12
partner cuts out as much of these things as they possibly can. Yeah. >> So that they can control their partner.
01:15:19
I mean, we I think we've all got a friend in a group chat. >> Oh, yeah.
01:15:22
>> Who >> has kind of like seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and
01:15:27
agency since they've been in that relationship. >> They'd say they're on a leash.
01:15:29
>> Yeah. They're on a leash. Like they can never come to the thing. >> Mhm.
01:15:33
>> That's not okay. >> And it appears to be a consequence of boundaries, like not
01:15:40
reinforcing your boundaries early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope boundaries.
01:15:47
>> Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like where you like you kind of make a
01:15:50
concession and because you've made a concession, they're more likely to pursue another concession,
01:15:55
>> right? >> And then before you know it, you're behind bars alone.
01:16:00
>> Yeah. And and frustrated and wondering how you how you got here. I know we've
01:16:04
spoke about boundaries in the past. To me, it it ultimately comes comes down to am I protecting the priority? So, if I
01:16:15
know that my marriage is the priority, I'm going to set boundaries that protect
01:16:18
that. I mean, for me in my life right now, whether I'm working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's
01:16:27
am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my my family in my relationship. So, you have to first define what is the
01:16:36
priority here. So if the priority is knowing that we want to be you and your partner want
01:16:44
to be in a relationship and you know make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on
01:16:50
date night. There's certain things that just aren't movable. The answer is no.
01:16:54
And when you can have those really hard nos, it makes feeling the time of everything else all that much easier.
01:17:02
But that's it. I mean it ultimately comes down to are you being real about it? Are you being fake about it?
01:17:08
>> In your view, you talk about being nice and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk
01:17:12
about this on your podcast. What's the difference between being a nice person
01:17:16
and a kind person? And which one should I aspire to be? Stop being nice at the expense of being real. So nice is
01:17:25
something that we got taught really early on. Hey, be nice. Play nice. And if you believe forever and always
01:17:33
that being nice serves you well, you will ultimately serve it. You will people please. You will only choose to
01:17:40
say the nice thing. You will nice is very surface. If you went on a date with somebody and
01:17:48
I was like, "How was a date?" And you said, "She was nice." >> Yuck. Yuck.
01:17:53
>> Yeah. Does does that mean that was good? No. Of course. But you're want to say
01:17:56
the nice thing. And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what's something that that is politically
01:18:05
correct or whatever it is. Kind is very deep. It's related to the word kin. It's
01:18:11
it's connection. So where nice is concerned about surface, kind is worried about connection. So
01:18:20
nice people say, "Oh, I can't tell them the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice.
01:18:23
That wouldn't be nice. I can't say that." kind says, "I care about you
01:18:28
enough to say the truth." That I I care about you enough to tell you the truth.
01:18:34
So when you have the chance, don't choose nice at the expense of being real. Choose the kind thing. Like if you
01:18:42
and I were in a conversation and I was like, I could really I could just go, "Yeah, man. That sounds great with the
01:18:50
decision you're going to make because I just I don't want to upset you. That
01:18:53
that wouldn't be nice." versus me saying, "Stephen, I I have to tell you,
01:18:58
man, this doesn't feel right to me." Which one's the kind thing of of telling you
01:19:05
the actual truth? It's being authentic to it. So, a lot of people, they they
01:19:08
look back and they're just people pleasing. That's all they've they've
01:19:10
been because they've always chosen what's nice, not what's kind. >> You must get a lot of messages from a
01:19:16
lot of people pleasers >> all the time. >> And what is it they want from you?
01:19:20
They're wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start start
01:19:24
pleasing themselves. Like how to I always say that there's not a problem with people pleasing as long as you're
01:19:30
one of them. Yeah. Of of it's okay to do things that other people ask you to do and you want to serve
01:19:37
other people. I'm not saying it in a as a servitude way of I can never have any
01:19:42
of my own voice. It's it's where you constantly are put yourself in inconvenient
01:19:53
places for the sake of other people hoping that they will see your true value. So they conflate
01:20:01
the pleasure of others with the value of themselves. And so meaning I mean nothing to myself
01:20:07
if you're not happy with me. I mean nothing to myself if if I can't please
01:20:12
you. you you want this? Oh, okay. I'll go get it. Oh, you need this. Let me do
01:20:15
this. Oh, I already thought about this. You love this. And they've forgotten
01:20:20
their own sense. And so, I've met people that have, you know, a lot of it's also
01:20:25
early childhood, right? They they learned that to save the marriage between mom and dad, they need to be
01:20:33
everything to everybody. They have to give up. They they've missed childhood
01:20:36
in order to please everybody else. And so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's
01:20:43
a survival skill of knowing for me to have to survive in this, for me to have worth, well, I can't do it unless
01:20:50
everybody else is happy with me. >> Are there any case studies that come to
01:20:53
mind of people that have read your work and have made real transformations that have shocked you or made you happy or
01:21:01
proven to you the profoundity of being able to take control of conversation? We took a a survey poll within my
01:21:08
membership and it was already I think it was like 93% of people with even in the
01:21:14
first three chapters of my book it had already significantly impacted them in their job
01:21:23
their family and exactly what they were reading the book for because everybody picks it up for the conversation they
01:21:28
have in their mind. you know, they people don't watch my content to handle to know how to handle the last
01:21:33
conversation. They watch to know how to handle the the next one. And so to be able to provide the results that they're
01:21:41
wanting is a is a is a blessing. I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't firmed up the title yet,
01:21:49
but I have started mocking up some different designs. And I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of
01:21:55
our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details.
01:22:00
The typography, the font, the color, the text placement, the stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually
01:22:06
compounds to create something that stands out, something that's one better than the rest. And designing my cover
01:22:12
art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year. But
01:22:16
it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are
01:22:19
also sitting on their own secrets. So, I've created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to
01:22:26
you. And in it, you'll find principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy
01:22:31
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01:22:36
do. Just head over to adobe./1 better to download Adobe Express now and make sure you visit the learn tab to
01:22:44
discover how you can become one better than the rest. Is there a particular moment of conflict which you stays with
01:22:51
you the most when you think about a difficult conversation in your life? >> Yeah, there was one that I I talk about
01:23:01
in my book that was probably the most gut-wrenching at that time was me leaving the the law firm where I was at
01:23:07
and having to talk to my dad about leaving that firm. But that's let's say
01:23:11
that's in the the book. What's fresh for me now, you want to talk about that? I
01:23:16
mean, what's fresh for me now is conversations that I've had with my wife, with Sierra, and I'm having a hard
01:23:24
time reaching and she's having a hard time reaching for me, where I kind of just go
01:23:32
static where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse, or I I'm trying to and I have a hard
01:23:39
time expressing it. So the best thing I can do in that mind is I use my words to
01:23:44
be able to say, you know, I I feel regret for what's happened or what I've done and I may not
01:23:52
be shown it right now, but I this is not something I'm proud of. To be at least
01:23:56
able to show in my words how I'm feeling. So it let's say for example it's
01:24:03
about anything related to it could be any argument really with a a husband and a wife or a spouse or partner or
01:24:10
whatever it is. But we had one not too long ago where we knew we were going to be traveling for a bit and sometimes if
01:24:21
it's just the two of us what's going to happen? You're going to you're going to
01:24:24
have some spats. about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a fight about, but that's what what
01:24:29
happens. And I said to her, I was like, "Well, that, you know, if we do this and
01:24:36
do that, you we'll probably we're not probably going to argue about it. It's
01:24:39
going to be fine." And she said to me, she said, "Well, either way, it's good."
01:24:46
Meaning, if you don't argue about something, great. But if we do argue about it, that's good, too. to be able
01:24:52
to see it as a chance to understand each other a little bit more, to know each other a little bit more. And
01:25:00
it's it's it's not without being radically honest um with the person you
01:25:06
want to be with. And that's that's hard for a lot of people. I had a friend of mine say to me
01:25:12
the other day that the thing that annoys him most about his wife is just like how
01:25:15
long she takes to get ready. And he like really like offloaded it to me in a way
01:25:18
where I'm like this is a problem for him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get
01:25:22
ready and she's like, which means they're always late to things. A lot of
01:25:25
guys can relate to this, including myself. But the way he said it to me was was surprising. And I I remember
01:25:30
thinking, should he just go and have this conversation with her or is this like an illegitimate concern to raise?
01:25:37
And I think there sometimes with, you know, because you were talking about your experience with Sierra and her
01:25:42
saying like either way, it's a good thing. Are all arguments warranted? Like is that argument you
01:25:48
take too long to get ready and it's pissing me off? Is that a a valid thing to raise with
01:25:55
your partner? >> In therapy, they say if it's hysterical, it's historical.
01:26:01
Meaning, if it's really that big of a deal, then there's probably something
01:26:04
deeper going on. If it's really affecting you that much, it's like those
01:26:08
people who say, "Well, he's always pushing my buttons." I ask, "Why is
01:26:10
there a button?" You know, it's if if it's always getting you worked up,
01:26:15
there's probably something deeper that you're not noticing. It's probably
01:26:19
related to something that happened when he was a kid or something that maybe it's
01:26:26
here. Let me give a good example. You know, in in our marriage, I'm the spender. She's the saber.
01:26:35
>> Okay? >> She she can turn a penny into a dime, right? You can pinch a penny to a dime.
01:26:42
And she got really frustrated with me of like, why do you always need the nicest
01:26:45
thing, right? And that's typically if she's has an option of several things,
01:26:51
even if I don't know the price tags, I typically end up going with the one that's most expensive. And it infuriates
01:26:56
her, right? Because she she wouldn't do that. She's going to wait for it to go
01:26:59
on sale. It she could have something she really wants and she's just going to
01:27:03
track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale. And that's that gives her
01:27:06
satisfaction. Me, I'll just go buy it. And I'm not saying I'm crazy what's I'm
01:27:12
not like some crazy spender, but this is an issue that has always bothered her. and bothered me.
01:27:19
And what we had come to find out, we had actually used this with my AI actually,
01:27:24
but what we had come to learn is that the reason why it affected me so much of like why why do you always choose the
01:27:34
the nice thing is related to when I was a kid as the oldest, I I didn't get much of the the nice
01:27:43
thing. my my stuff was typically hand me down from a friend or something else or
01:27:48
I I didn't get the nice thing. And at some point along the way, you equate that to your sense of worth. And so when
01:27:56
I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself, yeah, I I I bought the onbrand
01:28:02
cornflakes, you know, I bought the the the onbrand uh medication because to me that that
01:28:09
was equal to how I wanted others to perceive me. And so when she realized that, oh, it's not just me wanting to
01:28:17
splurge or have some kind of, you know, you just think you um have to buy the best. It was like,
01:28:24
no, that's actually it's a reflection of when you buy me something nice, I feel
01:28:27
like you equate that to how much value I I hold. I'm not worth buying something
01:28:33
nice for. And so it was related a lot to my stuff. And we got to talk the same about her stuff of why she doesn't want
01:28:41
to buy the thing. So, it's it's like that having these super conversations
01:28:46
with your friend of why does it bother her when she gets takes forever to get dressed? Well, most likely it's related
01:28:52
to something in his past that's bothered him that he's not seeing yet. Are the
01:28:58
conversation worth having? Yeah, I think it's absolutely worth having. If it's
01:29:01
bothering you that much, yeah, if it's hysterical, it's historical. I think
01:29:07
that's a really good point which is we're all just dealing with other people's inner child. Like we're
01:29:13
all dealing with it's just like me as a child facing you as a child. I know we
01:29:16
look like adults now. I haven't got gray hair but >> yes >> it's really still us just playing out
01:29:21
the stories and narratives from our childhood oftent times. >> You're exactly right. They they say in
01:29:24
therapy the worst thing about parents is that they had parents. you know, I mean,
01:29:28
they they it's so easy for me just to look at my mom and me forget that she had parents, you know, that what they
01:29:37
did to her rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me, you know, and and that's the definition of
01:29:44
the generational cycle. And it's choosing to do something different with with who you are and who you want to be
01:29:52
and who how you want to raise the next generation. But we're it's it's all
01:29:56
survival skills. It's all childhood trauma that's related. And when people I
01:30:02
have a section in my book of having people define out their own the the communication skills they saw
01:30:12
growing up. Because most of the time if you feel like arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody's
01:30:19
yelling and it's it's also typically cultural, you know, of how certain cultures how they argue and how loud it
01:30:26
is and if everybody versus there's some cultures and families that it's very
01:30:32
quiet. Like I I I'll never forget going to a friend's house when I was about
01:30:37
seven and his parents while we're eating cereal like just had at it and I was
01:30:43
mortified like >> arguing >> arguing arguing >> and I mean yelling at each other and I
01:30:51
am like bowling head mortified and my friend is just eating cereal like hey don't bother him whatsoever it's just
01:30:57
another Tuesday you know and whereas I grew up with if my parents argued it was going to be in their bedroom. You
01:31:05
know, I knew if they were going to they went to close the door and they were going to have a a conversation that they
01:31:10
didn't want us to hear. And so, everybody has been modeled something different where
01:31:17
like there's I've seen it on the negative side where people feel like you
01:31:22
don't really love me unless you want to fight with me. It's because that's all
01:31:26
they've been modeled, fights. They have to say the most hurtful thing. They need
01:31:29
to be in tears. They need to be saying horrible things to each other for them to feel any kind of love. And I've also
01:31:36
seen it where people are wallflower. They don't want to say anything. They want to be really hesitant because bad
01:31:43
things happened when they spoke out at home. They they realized that telling the truth wasn't good for them. They
01:31:51
they they learned that lies protected them. >> It's interesting when you have one
01:31:54
parent that conducted themselves in a certain way and the other parent was the opposite.
01:31:58
>> Yeah. What then happens to you? Like which communication style you then
01:32:02
adopt? >> Which parent takes more of an interest in you is where it typically goes. The
01:32:09
one you're most of the time with. And see, I know people who their parents are
01:32:14
kind of absent, but they spend a lot of time with their grandmother. And so I know a guy who he sounds just like his
01:32:20
southern grandmother from Kentucky, you know, because that's who he spent most
01:32:24
of his time with. And so it's it's who takes the most interest in you. It's
01:32:30
it's where the parents what I what I find so interesting in communication we talk everything is
01:32:40
learned from how we were raised is at one point in time there was utility to what you were doing. There was a utility
01:32:47
to lying. It protected you. Protected maybe your mom. It protected maybe your dad. There's utility to it. There was a
01:32:53
utility to manipulating to be able to say things weren't this way in order to
01:32:58
keep the family together. So there was a utility to the very skill that you still
01:33:03
have and eventually it catches up with you. >> What is it about our communication do
01:33:08
you think that makes us accidentally disliked by other people? >> It sounds fake.
01:33:13
>> It sounds fake. And how does it sound fake? Give me give me some color. Um, if
01:33:18
you want to know the secret if somebody's being fake with you, there's really three things that you got to
01:33:23
know. Number one, it's what I call bestie bombing. >> Bestie bombing. >> Yeah. So, instead of like love bombing,
01:33:32
it's bestie bombing. I have people who come to me all the time of I feel like
01:33:36
somebody's being fake with them. And what they're doing is it's, "Oh my gosh,
01:33:39
I just we're we're literally the same person. Oh, I think we're best friends."
01:33:42
And it's we just met. Like I just we I already talked we're just standing next
01:33:46
to each other at the same party and they're like, "Oh, we've got to go. Oh
01:33:49
my gosh, we you're my best. You're my soulmate." And it's like they they give
01:33:53
way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you. >> Ah, yeah.
01:33:58
>> And it's it's nothing. It's not what secure people do. Secure people don't
01:34:03
attach to you instantly. >> Is that a form of manipulation? >> No, it's a form of insecurity. It's it's
01:34:09
a form because if it would be manipulation if they actually meant it, but they don't. It's it's
01:34:17
these inauthentic relationships that all of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, we
01:34:23
we're going to be best friends. I I love you so much." And you're like, I I I'm
01:34:28
don't even know I don't even know your last name. What are you What are you
01:34:30
talking about? So, you see that a lot. Two is the over compliments. We all have this sixth sense to be able to sniff out
01:34:40
if that's real or not. Like nobody needs to teach you if it's a fake laugh or
01:34:45
not. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Right. I don't know. Was that real or not,
01:34:50
Stephen? Yeah. Yeah. >> It's so funny. Yeah. Because we we think we can spot everyone else's fake laugh
01:34:54
and then conspars. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. It's like But nobody had
01:34:59
to teach that to you. Nobody had to say, "Hey, if you hear like this, it's a fake
01:35:02
laugh." No, no, no. We all as humans it's we have an ability a sense to go
01:35:07
nah that didn't sound real that's not a real smile you know people have their
01:35:11
like photo smile and the real smile >> and the same with the the the laughter
01:35:18
or like that's not that wasn't that funny or they overcomplent something
01:35:22
they compliment your shoes I mean and then they have really they go oh my gosh I I I love that outfit and then all of a
01:35:28
sudden they've turned their head you know what I mean they're not really
01:35:31
truly engaged in what it is it's just it's it's a ritual to them of that's how
01:35:36
they have learned because to me if you have to perfectly curate yourself this this sense of perfection you you're not
01:35:44
getting the real human you're getting a person in character you're getting them
01:35:51
in and scene you know they have to like get into it and so it's it's um it's
01:35:58
something that's so so fake every every single time and then I the third that
01:36:03
you have to watch out for are the people that aren't willing to actually have an
01:36:09
interest in you. Meaning they never ask anything about you. They're only wanting to talk about
01:36:15
themselves. Like have you ever been in a I know you have and you're networking in
01:36:20
a big room and somebody's looking at you and all of a sudden they're looking at
01:36:22
the room like they're they're looking for who they're going to talk to next
01:36:27
and you've lost them. And so it's like, why? We're both just kind of here saying
01:36:31
things. We're going to slow down our words so it's not as awkward. And you
01:36:35
say things like, "Yeah, that's that's crazy." Yeah. And like while you're both
01:36:40
looking for somebody else to talk to, but that's what happens. You realize you
01:36:44
stay you come out of focus and they they're looking for the next person. A really um surprising point of uh
01:36:50
feedback or compliment someone gave me once and it's surprising because I never
01:36:54
considered it to be something that people were noticing is when I do like meet and greets and you're meeting say
01:36:59
100 people before or after a talk or whatever and they're coming up one one at a time.
01:37:04
>> I will get DMs in the preceding days of people telling me that they liked the
01:37:10
way that they watched me pay attention to someone else. >> Do you get this
01:37:15
>> all the time? Yeah. They're watching how how interested you are in the person
01:37:20
that's talking to you. >> And I didn't I didn't obviously it's not
01:37:23
something I'd thought about before until probably had about 20 messages over the
01:37:26
last year or two from people saying and do you know what I noticed even how much
01:37:31
you were paying attention to the person that spoke to you. Not to them. They were in the line waiting. But it's the
01:37:36
per and I just thought that's so interesting that we judge >> other people by how they interact with
01:37:41
>> other people while we're watching as well. >> Right. And that being interested is seen
01:37:46
as makes you likable. I guess >> presence is the highest form of authenticity.
01:37:53
>> Like I can talk to you, but am I here with you? >> Am I do I have my eyes with you? Am I am
01:37:58
I interested in you? Am I going to am I easily distracted? Am I have my phone? Am I am I really paying attention? Or am
01:38:07
I making sure that you know you are the most important thing that's happening in
01:38:11
this moment? Even if it's a glimmer and even if it's for 30, 20 seconds and
01:38:16
you're doing a meet and greet and you're saying hi or you're signing their book,
01:38:20
do you ask them their name? Do you use their name? Do you look at them with intent of true genuine thank you for
01:38:27
being here? None of this would happen if not for you. People are watching the whole time and they they they know. I
01:38:35
mean, it's it's it's such a >> it's like what you know it when you feel
01:38:40
it kind of thing. And to me, it's it's presence. Am I am I truly here with you?
01:38:44
Okay. Because even at the house, you know, you can say, "Well, I'm home all
01:38:48
the time, but are you are you just looking on your phone? Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always
01:38:53
reading? Are you that's not presence?" >> I'm going to play this video on the
01:38:58
screen for anyone that's uh watching the video. Okay. >> But it it immediately made me think of
01:39:02
um this clip that went viral of Miley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. >> Oh, I haven't seen this. They were doing
01:39:08
a meet and greet together and they were just chatting to each other and kind of ignoring the
01:39:13
fans. And you can be >> I just remember thinking this is like the antithesis of what we've just said.
01:39:30
>> It's painful to watch. I know it's painful for the people. I mean I it's
01:39:34
several layers of where one, it's an area of really little forgiveness. You know, if you think of somebody of of
01:39:44
her caliber, so to say, of like her celebrity, right? Seen thousands, millions, it's happened. And is there
01:39:52
really room for just having a conversation with somebody like if I if you're her, how do you what would be the
01:39:59
justification? Right? If you could just pause and say, "What is it?" Maybe you
01:40:02
say, "Well, there isn't any." Okay, that's fine. But let's say one, when it
01:40:06
comes to presence, there's really not any room for forgiveness. It's it's either you're
01:40:14
present with them or you're you're not because this kind of thing can last
01:40:17
forever. Second of all, people will forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel.
01:40:26
And people will remember you, Stephen, of they will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you
01:40:35
and how nice you were, how present you were, and how you were genuinely interested in them. And that makes all
01:40:43
the difference. If you have one slip up, that's when I say it's it's it's not
01:40:48
very forgivable. When when you have one slip up, it's showing applied to all
01:40:52
because if you can do it to them, you can do it to me. The slip up will also travel much further.
01:40:57
>> Faster too. >> Yeah. Faster. F >> because I guarantee you, you know, you
01:41:01
think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had and has had genuine real interest. They they mess up
01:41:07
one time, they get tired one time. Well, then all of a sudden that's what travels
01:41:12
way faster. So, but the thing is that that's why I say presence is the highest
01:41:17
form of authenticity because if you can take that moment to be truly interested in somebody because who am I? You know,
01:41:25
I'm I'm a guy from a small town who made videos in my car and you're going to
01:41:29
come to my book signing and you traveled and you flew in two hours. Like, why would I not? Hold up. Take the line. Let
01:41:35
me spend three minutes with you. Can I give three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here? And so
01:41:41
when you have that humility and there's several people I know you know many names of they they
01:41:51
forgot how they got what they got. >> Oh yeah. I have a really interesting
01:41:56
example of this recently where we appointed a new chairman to our company. >> He's called Nikki
01:42:02
>> and um incredible guy. He's been at like he'd been proctor and gamble doing
01:42:07
product for I don't know 12 years. then went to Boston Consulting Group and was
01:42:11
one of the senior figures at Boston Consulting Group for 25 years. And you know, he's in the the home stretch of
01:42:18
his career. >> Mhm. >> And he joined our company and he is, you know, he he's achieved so
01:42:26
much. He's he's worked with the biggest the best in the world globally, >> right?
01:42:30
>> So, he's got the right, one would say, >> I like that, >> to be a certain way. That's what someone
01:42:35
might say. But I'm over here in Los Angeles. Um, he joins the company as chairman. And the interesting thing, the
01:42:44
interesting feedback I got, I know 5,000 miles away was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said, "Oh, I
01:42:51
love Nikki." And I was like, "Explain." And he went, he sat down with me and
01:42:57
gave me an hour of his time. That was the reason he loved him. >> That was it.
01:43:01
>> That was it. It was presence. and and what what I I later found out was that
01:43:06
Nikki went into the company and there is hundreds of people and he sat down with
01:43:10
every single one of them regardless of whether you're an intern or whether you're the CEO and it always it's always
01:43:15
stayed with me how much that has mattered how much that has shaped his perception just disproport he's
01:43:22
brilliant and everything but disproportionately shaped his perception just by giving someone the most valuable
01:43:27
thing which is just their time. >> Yes. And um I mean maybe it's a a story
01:43:32
of how to be a good partner. Maybe it's a story of how to be in the public eye,
01:43:38
>> right? >> Maybe it's also a story of how to be a great colleague or team member or
01:43:40
leader. >> Yeah. Or just a great human. Yeah. I I think there is um when you're always in
01:43:47
the habit of giving, giving then feels a lot like receiving. So when I'm giving
01:43:53
my time, it also feels like I'm receiving that time back. when I can continually have that spirit and you
01:44:02
have that knowledge of humility. They say, "What does humility mean?" It it means you realize that you
01:44:09
are just as weird and terrible as everybody else. When you realize I I'm I'm the chief worst person there is. No,
01:44:18
I'm not better than a single person that is in line to to do or attend something
01:44:23
or sit in an audience. I I am no better. I've just been through a lot. Still been
01:44:30
through a lot. And so I know a lot. And when you have that mindset of I want to meet and touch every single
01:44:37
person. If I were to come in here and only talk to you, but not talk to your team,
01:44:47
what's what do you think that's going to do when you can go somewhere and not
01:44:51
just talk to who's the most popular, but also talk to who's the least? Like
01:44:57
it's it is you will always get way more. and for yourself and for the other person when you can lower yourself to
01:45:05
say, "Hey, we're just humans in a room. How's it going?" >> It's interesting that we um we're
01:45:11
figuring people out by how we observe them vicariously. We were talking about it in the context of like a meet and
01:45:16
greet a second ago. Yeah. >> What you said there tracks perfectly with with that, which is when you walked
01:45:21
in the room, you didn't just speak to me, you also asked Berta, who's recording the podcast today, what her
01:45:27
name was. And then you said to Berta, you said, "Thank you for doing this."
01:45:31
right >> now. Isn't it funny that I remember? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Isn't it funny that that was like two
01:45:34
and a half hours ago and I remember because it was really memorable to me that you did that
01:45:39
>> because not everybody does that. Not everybody will, you know, notice that
01:45:42
>> B is in the room with us and she's running all these cameras and she's
01:45:45
putting it together. But for some reason, just before we started recording, you made a point of asking
01:45:48
her what her name was and then >> and then thanking her for doing this today. Yeah.
01:45:52
>> Most people don't do that. >> And as you walk away from today, I'm not
01:45:56
going to remember like that you you walked in and said something nice about me or whatever. The most shocking thing
01:46:01
and therefore the most memorable because it is the most unusual >> because it is typically the most
01:46:05
overlooked is you acknowledging the other people. >> Yeah. >> And um
01:46:13
I've noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to, but I I remember
01:46:18
in something I wrote a long time ago saying how useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality. And
01:46:25
what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym
01:46:30
where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance. And I came home to my girlfriend and said, "There's this
01:46:34
incredible gym. It's massive. They even have a 100 foot climbing wall in the
01:46:38
entrance." What I'm doing is I'm pointing at the most absurd thing to
01:46:43
give you a shortcut that tells you everything about that gym. Now, if I point at the most absurd thing, you know
01:46:49
the gym is big. >> Oh, I got chills. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Yes. If I say there's 100 foot climbing
01:46:53
wall, you know, there's lots of running machines, >> right? >> So, if I if I when I leave here and go,
01:46:57
he was so nice. He even spoke to Ber and um thanked her for doing the podcast. I'm using that as a shortcut because
01:47:03
it's the most standout absurd thing to tell other people everything about you.
01:47:08
>> Yes. I love that. >> And this is why we should value the the seemingly petty and seemingly small and
01:47:12
seemingly inconsequential because other people don't. Therefore, it creates maximal impact.
01:47:18
>> Yes. That that's why the big conversations rarely matter. the small
01:47:21
ones do. It's the small ones with strangers. It's the conversations you don't have on the stage. It's the
01:47:26
conversations you have in your driveway. It's the conversations you have in your
01:47:29
backyard at the coffee shop. It's it's the conversations you have to somebody
01:47:33
passing by in the elevator. Like, it's those that that's what defines the human
01:47:39
experience. If I were to text you a compliment, right? That's one thing. But
01:47:45
if I were to say, "Hey, I just finished lunch with soand so who you also know. I
01:47:50
got to tell you, this person loves you so much and and I share with you what they said about you, you're going to
01:47:55
take that differently. >> If I wanted to give you, let's say if someone want to give me a gift, right?
01:48:00
But instead, they didn't give it to me, they gave it to my kids. >> I mean, that's h how much more would
01:48:06
that define how much they care, >> right? It it's anytime I go on a a stage, I make it a priority that I know
01:48:14
the guy who's or girl who's putting on my the AV system, the lapel mic, the
01:48:19
everything. I want to know their name. I know how how many times they've done
01:48:23
this today, how they're doing because it's so easy just to turn and keep
01:48:28
talking to who's important while and act like they're just doing it. Like it's
01:48:32
when you can truly talk to the people that's just a regular person and forget
01:48:39
that you you don't have to just stick to the somebodyodies. You don't have to
01:48:42
look always for the somebodyodies. I used to say that I again this comes from employing a lot of people that we all
01:48:47
have invisible PR >> and it's and it shows up in the moments that matters the most but it's built in
01:48:53
the moments that seem to matter the least. >> Yeah. And the example I always think of
01:48:57
is being working in the New York office um many years ago and getting a message from my team member just saying, "Oh,
01:49:03
Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from
01:49:08
her desk and ran across uh to the first aid kit and sorted him out. She's so
01:49:12
nice." And I'd hear that 3,000 miles away. And then a year later, I'd be sat
01:49:16
with Jenny during her promotion conversation. >> Yeah. And that one thing she did, that
01:49:23
small thing she did was often the time where I'd go, you know what, this person
01:49:26
is a certain type of person and we should >> double down on them. And then I've got
01:49:30
the opposite as well. >> I've got the a little thing someone did to someone who was not necessarily their
01:49:37
line manager or significant. >> Yeah. >> And it, you know, and even things that
01:49:43
happened to me years ago when I came up to I walked up to someone famous. I've
01:49:48
told this story. It's so crazy. I told this story on the podcast like episode
01:49:51
three and no one listened and then um like 3 four years later the podcast got bigger and people started listening to
01:49:59
people go back to the old episodes. >> Mhm. >> And this famous person tweeted me like
01:50:03
four years later I was like I heard you're talking about me in the UK blah blah blah blah blah.
01:50:07
>> But I was I was just sharing as an example for like invisible PR where someone I'd gone up to someone famous
01:50:11
and asked them a question and they just like >> bang. Yeah. >> Like laid into me.
01:50:18
>> Right. And I and I, you know, I don't know what they're going through that
01:50:20
day, but it it always, you know, >> well, that's but that brings it around
01:50:24
like full circle because like we just said, you can have those little moments where it's it's the rock wall, right?
01:50:32
Where little moments of connection, of presence, of real authenticity, of them being with you that you'll remember
01:50:38
forever. And I bet if I had to guess, there's a moment in Steven at the playground
01:50:45
growing up that or a teacher, somebody in your life said something that was nice and you've remembered forever.
01:50:52
>> Oh, yeah. >> But I would also venture a bit. >> Yes. Before you've even said, I could I
01:50:58
thought of the moment >> that Okay. >> Playground Steven where somebody said
01:51:03
something hurtful. >> Yeah. >> Or rude or said something about how you
01:51:08
look or your appearance. Maybe not even recess, but sometime in your life. >> Oh yeah.
01:51:12
>> And it was just something maybe it was about for a lot of people it's like
01:51:16
their weight or their appearance or their looks and they've carried that around with them forever and that like
01:51:22
without knowing it that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life.
01:51:27
And so it's so wild to me how the positive is remembered, the negative is remembered much longer
01:51:36
and travels a lot farther. And I mean it's when I ask that to a group that I'm
01:51:41
talking to, those hands are always way more raised for the negative, for the one thing that the power of your words
01:51:49
lasts way longer than you'd ever think. The ripple effect will affect people
01:51:54
you've never met. I mean, you think think of the people who you've touched
01:51:58
and the people you've never met, but yet they have a perception of you based
01:52:03
three persons down, >> right? And how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and
01:52:09
their kids. Children I'll never meet. And when you realize that how I talk to
01:52:15
the person behind the cashier affects how he or she talks to their kids when they go home based on what I said will
01:52:25
determine whether they come home and say, "I had a really bad day. I had a really hard day and it it's because of
01:52:30
what I said because I was rude or I was impatient because they didn't get it to
01:52:35
me fast enough and all of a sudden without knowing just as much as the positive lasts so does the negative.
01:52:40
It's now I what I chose to say is responsible for how they're treating their own kids.
01:52:46
>> And that's what how we are as humans, right? Like we um the reason why we
01:52:50
survived is because we're good at gossip. >> That too. >> We're good at passing on stories. So,
01:52:55
you know, I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk. >> No. Yeah.
01:52:59
>> I could, you know, don't go near him. Don't go near that cave. There's a
01:53:01
>> threat person in there that's going to kill us. So, >> right.
01:53:04
>> It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in some respects to be gossipy and to pass
01:53:08
on people's reputations. >> But we've always asked what's the news?
01:53:12
>> You know, people going through town from town to town. You you didn't you didn't
01:53:15
really have a paper. It's do you have any news? So, I'm going to push you to close to
01:53:20
give me the five things that you think are most important for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator,
01:53:29
conversationalist to get what they want out of life, which is really what I think is it is the last
01:53:35
domino when we talk about body language or communication tactics or all the things we're talking about. I think
01:53:39
people are trying to get something out of life, whether it's to have a better
01:53:42
relationship or to be respected or what, get a promotion, to be successful. I think that's
01:53:49
probably the the output we're looking for >> ultimately. Do you agree with that? I
01:53:53
don't want to like what is it that what's the last domino that people are
01:53:57
looking for when they talk about this stuff up here? >> Selfworth. >> Selfworth. Okay.
01:54:02
>> Am I Am I enough? >> Am I enough? Okay. So what are the what are the five most
01:54:09
important things to summarize if you had to give me five. >> The first is authenticity.
01:54:16
If I cannot be genuine with you, if I cannot be real with you, then I can be nobody to you.
01:54:22
>> And on authenticity, you know, on your bad day, are you still authentic at work?
01:54:28
>> Yes. >> Like if you're if you're really, you know, having a bad day, do you show up
01:54:32
to work as your authentic self? >> I would say yes. I mean, there's obviously certain parameters that are
01:54:38
within social norms of just because I'm having a a bad time and in a bad mood,
01:54:42
does that give me a right to rip you a new one? Uh, just because you said hello to me that morning, you know? No. But I
01:54:50
I think that there is certainly a space to say, don't act h like you're happy
01:54:55
when you're not. >> What about lying? Is that a violation of authenticity? So, a colleague comes up
01:54:59
to me, they say, "What do you think of my new haircut?" And you think it's terrible?
01:55:05
Yeah. >> What you What' you say? >> It's an interesting choice. Probably is
01:55:10
what I'd say. >> So, you wouldn't lie. >> No, I wouldn't. I would probably change
01:55:14
it to where it's I'm glad that they like it. You know, I I don't have to like it
01:55:19
for you to give it any type of worth. If you like it, that's awesome. >> And authenticity as a strategy builds
01:55:26
trust over time. So, that's a long-term game, I guess. >> Yeah. No, I I came across some research
01:55:32
uh recently where it was in social settings, those that are more authentic are also the ones that are more trusted
01:55:38
and the ones you want to be around more. >> Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point
01:55:43
about people pleasing, I guess. But there is a certain type of person, I think, that probably struggles to just
01:55:48
be, you know, just to show up in all the ways that they they are to be themselves. They grew up
01:56:00
in places that weren't safe, whether physically or emotionally. They they grew up unsafe. And so they're
01:56:09
always tense. They're always anxious. They're always worried about the next
01:56:13
shoe to drop. They can't rest. You see people that had come from very hard, harsh environments.
01:56:23
you'll see the survival skills that have come out of that. Um, it's because they they simply didn't
01:56:31
have a place to be safe. >> Number two, >> reduce the amount of distraction.
01:56:40
>> Reduce distraction. Is that the same as saying like increase presence? >> Well, that is the the benefit of it.
01:56:48
Yeah. If you want to increase your presence, you have to eliminate distractions. And
01:56:53
that means eliminate how often you're on your phone. >> I've got some thread here. Do you know
01:56:58
why this is here? >> Yes. >> Well, you explain. >> Well, I mean, so just a piece of very
01:57:05
pretty red string. And this string is going to represent the connection between the two of us. So, give you the
01:57:12
end of it. What I just gave you is a piece of string. And it connects between your hand and my hand. And it's taught
01:57:19
right now. So this string right now represents the connection between us in conversation.
01:57:25
>> It's tight. >> It's very tight. I'm going to ask questions throughout this that don't
01:57:30
think about how what the right answer is. Just go with what your gut instinct of how it feels. So right now it's
01:57:38
tight. And if I look at you in the eye and I say, "Stephen, how's it going,
01:57:42
man?" >> It's going good. Yeah. >> Yeah. What was something that frustrated
01:57:45
you yesterday? >> My haircut didn't go to plan. Tell me about it. >> It's just not It's not good. I don't
01:57:51
like it. >> Do you find that some of the the biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly
01:57:56
with business or personal or Tell me something with business. >> Um the struggles with business
01:58:02
yesterday. >> Yeah. >> Oh, go ahead. >> Okay. So, you're on your phone now and
01:58:08
the connection has been reduced. >> Um >> Yeah. So, I just pulled out my phone and
01:58:15
now I'm looking. And what did you feel in the line? >> I felt like the tightness went it went
01:58:21
loose. >> Yeah, it went slack. Right. And but that's the physical. What was
01:58:25
emotionally? How did that feel? >> It felt disrespectful. >> Yeah. And see if I had just both had
01:58:30
both hands on it like this. Now let's put it taught again and I'm talking to
01:58:36
you and I say, "So what's what are you looking forward to this weekend?"
01:58:40
>> I'm looking forward to >> No, go ahead. And this is me just turn.
01:58:44
It's still tight. Don't worry. It's I still am connected to you, you know.
01:58:47
Don't worry about it. I'm I'm right here. Go ahead. Yeah. Exactly. You see
01:58:51
how all of a sudden you wanted to let go now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. For anybody listening. So you we
01:58:55
both had it tight. I look at my phone while still holding it tight where I'm
01:58:58
saying, "No, no, I'm listening. Go right ahead." And all of a sudden, you are the
01:59:02
one that let go of the line. >> Yeah. >> Isn't that something? Because all of a
01:59:05
sudden, you gave up on the conversation. You didn't want to be in it anymore.
01:59:09
What do you typically do if somebody's at dinner with you and they pull out their phone?
01:59:14
>> I mean, you look away or you can speak to someone else or you >> or you pull out your phone.
01:59:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly. You It's like they've given you
01:59:21
permission to now pick up their phone. Somebody gets on theirs and you don't
01:59:26
want to look awkward or odd. So, what you you get out yours and next thing you know, both of you are on your phones at
01:59:32
dinner where you're supposed to be communicating with each other and you're
01:59:35
just staring at your phone. Do you think I sometimes think this with me being an
01:59:40
interviewer having this iPad in front of me, I'm like, should I get rid of the
01:59:42
iPad? >> Maybe I should because I write things down while someone's speaking to me and
01:59:47
I I do worry sometimes that if I'm like looking at a particular point or fact or
01:59:52
whatever that I'm >> It's a little bit different. So, there's a part of this that is it's it's a
01:59:58
production. We have cameras. We have lights. Like, this isn't a normal just if you and I were having coffee. But
02:00:03
let's say you and I were having lunch and I'm talking like this to you and I
02:00:09
put my phone right here. >> Do you feel a difference? >> Yeah, I do. Yeah.
02:00:13
>> Do you feel I'm more connected or less connected? >> Less connected.
02:00:15
>> Yeah. And if I >> am mixed priorities, not the priority. >> Do you feel any different if I flip it
02:00:20
over? >> Yes, I do. >> And my face is it's it's down. >> Yes, I do. It's a signal
02:00:24
>> of >> that you think this is more important and you don't want to be distracted.
02:00:29
>> Imagine what would you feel like if you were on a date or got together with
02:00:36
a friend >> and you just said, "Hey, where's your phone?" He said, "Oh, I just left it in
02:00:41
the car. I just wanted to sit with you." >> Yes. Incredible. >> Does anybody do that?
02:00:46
>> No. >> No. Nobody does that. But imagine imagine if right now there was uh let's
02:00:52
say a woman is about to go on a date and she asked a guy, "Where's your phone?"
02:00:57
And he goes, "Oh, I left it in the left it in the car." I mean, what kind of
02:01:02
>> You think it was kind of weird? >> Yeah. Almost like what? You mean you
02:01:05
want to be solely interested in me? I'm signaling that there is nothing else
02:01:09
more important than what's going on right here. >> So, that's so such atypical behavior.
02:01:13
Some people might see it as a red flag. >> I No, that's probably true. But if I
02:01:16
have it here, even if I put it face down on the table and I'm talking to you,
02:01:21
>> I'm at least still having my world, my business, my stress, my chaos. It's my
02:01:26
It's my pacifier. You don't you're not going to ask me to take away my blanket,
02:01:29
are you? >> Yeah. >> And so I'm still it's still there in the
02:01:32
conversation with us. So even if I put it down or I put it between my legs or I put it in my pocket, which I think is
02:01:37
much better of not letting it come out at all, but it's what's the strength of
02:01:44
the connection? Because we've all been that person like we just showed with the
02:01:48
string where they get out their phone while you're talking and like Mhm. Yeah.
02:01:52
Yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Go ahead. And you go, I don't want this. >> Yeah. you let go because it's like
02:01:57
that's this isn't real this isn't real connection. So if you want to be a
02:02:00
better communicator, you have to understand the definition of true connection. It's keeping it taught.
02:02:06
>> I am so shocked when I go to restaurants with my girlfriend cuz we have a rule
02:02:10
and this is actually a rule that I completely agreed with. >> Yeah. >> Which is like when we go on a date or we
02:02:14
go to a restaurant, there's no phones. >> Exactly. >> We're not going to be on our phones in a
02:02:17
restaurant. >> It's mind-blowing. >> Mindblowing. We went to um when we were
02:02:21
we've been here all this week and and we went to a restaurant Sier and I and I
02:02:26
saw so many couples and people and friends and that were just at the table and it it was it was dark evening and
02:02:33
all you see is the glow of phones just everybody just sitting there on their phone. It's just it's it's crazy to me.
02:02:40
or or the people that are on their couch with the TV on both of them are on their
02:02:46
phones and and they're supposed to be watching a movie together. >> You know, everyone people watches a
02:02:51
little bit and restaurants. Yeah. So, I'm not going to pretend we don't.
02:02:54
>> Yeah. At least I'm not going to do that. I'm >> But we we will be in a restaurant and we
02:02:57
just sometimes play a little game where we kind of guess how long people have been together based on how they're
02:03:02
behaving. >> Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun. And so it's it tends to be the case that
02:03:05
it's the younger couples where there's a man and a woman and they're both on
02:03:09
their phone and I just can't believe what I'm seeing. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm look I got my phone a lot but
02:03:15
if I'm on a date I am not going to be sat there looking at a screen while she's sat there looking on a screen just
02:03:20
in total silence. >> Even if I've known this woman for 35 years. >> Yeah. It's become so much of a an
02:03:28
emotional pacifier when I don't like the angst of having to wait in line by myself. I don't like having to sit on
02:03:34
the the subway or the tube or the metro or whatever by myself. I I get out I get
02:03:40
out my phone. I don't it it prevents me from having to have dialogue. So instead, I'd rather just look at my
02:03:46
phone and watch and scroll versus communicating. Like there's imagine waiting for your haircut and everybody
02:03:55
in the room is actually talking to one another like they used to and it would just be wild to you. Everybody in a
02:04:01
doctor's office in the waiting room everybody's looking at their phone. So
02:04:06
yeah, to me it's such a distraction and that means even at the house too I think
02:04:10
even more so when it comes to the house. >> So that was point number two which was
02:04:13
reducing distraction and therefore increasing presence. Three, stop over explaining.
02:04:22
You have to invest in the right words. Meaning, if you are constantly just gushing words the whole time,
02:04:32
>> does it make you want to listen to that person more or less? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you just kind of
02:04:38
discount it. >> Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden, it's it's kind of like the that story about the
02:04:42
boy who cried wolf. like you you you talk so much that the message gets lost. If I'm always
02:04:49
talking a lot, it's easy to tune it out. It's like it becomes its own static. But
02:04:55
if you choose your words, if I'm going to slow down, so how do you how do you
02:04:59
stop yourself from overexlaining instead of being a waterfall? Be a well. Meaning rather than trying to gush out
02:05:07
information, get them swept away in your message, you have a confidence in holding your knowledge. If they have a
02:05:14
question, they'll ask. You're available for the question should they want to
02:05:18
ask. But I'm going to give you always exactly what you need if I choose to be
02:05:22
a well with my information rather than just gushing. Because when I overexlain, all somebody's doing is indicating that
02:05:30
I don't really know if I believe what I'm saying or you believe what I'm
02:05:32
saying, so I need to say more. I notice there's such power in when someone asks
02:05:36
you a question, taking a moment to think. And actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say, "Let me
02:05:42
just think about that." >> And the minute they do that, I'm I'm
02:05:46
immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I'm now actually at baited breath to think about
02:05:51
to hear this very thoughtful, considered thing they're about to share with me.
02:05:54
>> Right. >> Whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite. The minute they're asked
02:05:57
anything, it's just like the floodgates open and they start filling the silence
02:06:00
with and they start thinking out loud. >> Exactly. They're they're external
02:06:04
thinkers. What I teach is let your first word be your breath. Meaning when you put a breath where the first word should
02:06:13
be, everything else flows. If I start gushing, what I'm signaling is, you know, I don't Most people wait until
02:06:26
they're talking to figure out what they want to say. >> Yeah. And so they say, "Well, what I
02:06:31
mean to say is,"Well, I say all that to say because they're still trying to
02:06:34
figure it out." But if you were to ask me a really hard question and rather
02:06:39
than having that knee-jerk reaction, I go, "That's a good question. Let me think." Then you're going to be
02:06:47
you're going to be in it. You're going to know whatever is about to come out
02:06:50
has actually been thought about, is actually going to be something you want to listen to. Now you're going to be
02:06:55
more curious. Now you wait with baited breath of what's gonna happen. So when
02:07:00
you think of business meetings, the person who goes, "Oh, actually, you know, I I disagree with that." If you
02:07:06
look at our latest studies and they just start versus when somebody asks, you know,
02:07:11
Stephen, what do you think? And you go and you just hold that silence, it's like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to
02:07:18
hear what you said. People who are confident, they don't have to say something to show they know something.
02:07:28
They choose their moment. They choose their timing. >> It appears they're also the people that
02:07:35
are most likely to turn around and say, "I don't have the answer to that."
02:07:38
>> Yep. People who are truly confident know they don't always have to get it
02:07:43
right. They know that they will get it wrong. Confident people, Confidence does not mean you have to know all the
02:07:49
answers. Confidence means you know that you don't. When you have the confidence
02:07:53
of knowing I don't know everything, all of a sudden you sound a lot more real. There's also something about you
02:08:00
just being the type of person that's willing to sit in silence but also just
02:08:03
take up more space and time that signals respect. The very fact that you would have the audacity to say someone asks me
02:08:09
a question and I go hm let me just think about that for a second. >> It it means that I'm not you talked
02:08:15
about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And there's something about quite aura about
02:08:21
that. There we go. >> About the fact that you you you're not the type of per you're the type of
02:08:24
person that can just take seven seconds, >> right? >> Because you are it's you're you're kind
02:08:27
of stealing 7 seconds from everyone there, >> right? >> So that you can think.
02:08:34
>> And you would think that the the harder the issue, the more time that is
02:08:38
necessary. >> You would think. Yeah. >> And instead everybody's equated it to
02:08:41
immediate. it it think when let's say we're on a a ship and it we're in the
02:08:48
middle of a storm. Who's the person that they all look to to say, "I'm freaking
02:08:53
out. I'm scared." But the captain isn't. You know, they he this person knows. He
02:08:59
she knows. And we're constantly looking for that person in times of emotional
02:09:04
stress. We're we're wanting someone to, you know, I I'm too anxious, but I can
02:09:09
go to this person because in times of crisis, they say, "You walk, don't run."
02:09:14
You know, I I'm When I act like I've been there before, and I've seen this,
02:09:20
I'm telling everybody else, "Oh, oh, if he's not worried, I shouldn't be
02:09:25
worried. If he's not upset, I don't have to be upset." A lot of doctors, a lot of
02:09:30
professionals that deal with conflict and crisis management, it's their job to
02:09:36
be as calm as could be because if they reacted in a way that set you off or sit you on edge, well then there's no
02:09:44
there's no anchor and then it's and then it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just
02:09:48
having that let me think about that for a second has a different tune of oh wow this person
02:09:55
they know who they are. They I don't rush. That's just not what I do. >> It reminds me of every time I've had
02:10:01
turbulence on a plane and I've looked at the flight attendant to see if this
02:10:03
thing is going down. >> That's so good. Yes, I've done that. I I can't tell you how many times I've done
02:10:08
that where I'm looking at the the hostess like just walking still passing out snacks and not bother. I'm like,
02:10:14
"Okay, if he's not bothered, I'm >> We do that in conversation every day.
02:10:18
We're we're looking for the calm flight attendants. We're looking for the
02:10:22
anchors, the captains, the people who in times of stress and turbulence in our life, we can look to and say, "If
02:10:29
they're okay and if they're good, then I'm then I can be good." And when you
02:10:32
can be that person for others, >> you're a leader. >> Yeah. Always.
02:10:35
>> You are the leader. >> Mhm. >> This is probably the defining trait of I
02:10:39
think people that I have employed over the years that I would consider a leader or not a leader is how different they
02:10:45
are when [ __ ] has hit the fan. >> Yes. And if there is seemingly no difference in the way they're conducting
02:10:52
themselves, leader, >> yep, >> emotional regulator. They bring the temperature down.
02:10:57
>> And then you have the inverse >> where the minute any kind of sign of
02:11:01
trouble, there's stress, there's >> there's overwhelm and it's contagious.
02:11:05
And what they need is the calm flight attendant to regulate them, >> right? So I think a and people I think
02:11:11
who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think about this like how do you show up when
02:11:16
things are hard. I I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver who when I employed him must have been
02:11:22
seven eight years ago. Okay he wasn't my friend when I hired him but the defining
02:11:26
trait of Oliver was that he would deliver me good and bad news uh the same >> Yeah. with the same sort of nonchalant
02:11:41
calm demeanor. So he'd walk up to me and say, you know, we've just signed Uber Across
02:11:47
America. We're going to be there. And then the days where everything was on fire, he'd walk up to me, Stephen,
02:11:52
Clever Chat. I say, yeah, yeah, cool. He'd say, just so you know, and then he'd deliver some of the worst [ __ ] I've
02:11:57
ever heard in my entire life. But he'd do it in such a calm way that I both I
02:12:02
was calm and I thought he had it under control, >> right? And I remember always thinking, I
02:12:07
need to put more people under this guy >> because he's going to bring us down. And
02:12:11
so I just think as employers, I I wouldn't have known that my boss or my employer is thinking this unless someone
02:12:17
had said it to me. They're watching how I deal with with things when she hears
02:12:21
the fan. >> They're always watching. And I mean, I mean, you take people that are are
02:12:25
watching you and your team. You have a large team. When when you are um upset and anxious, everybody feels it. It
02:12:33
spreads. But if you're the one that's calm, it that spreads too. And so it's
02:12:40
and and you have to get to the situation where if you're upset, then people know
02:12:45
it's something to be upset about of if you know I had um a friend in college.
02:12:52
He was upset about everything. I mean, he just was a hotthead and he got upset about the smallest things. How can you
02:12:58
possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing if you're always having the same level of
02:13:04
reaction? But if you have a calmness and let's say then you have an explosion
02:13:10
because it happens because you're human. That's when people know this is
02:13:14
something serious. >> Mhm. >> Because if you always operate at a 10,
02:13:18
nobody's going to appreciate it when it's really an 11. When you think about
02:13:21
like military generals and leaders, they also have this other side to them, which
02:13:25
is they do also protect the standard. And I think this there's a there's a
02:13:30
balance that's almost needed here between being nonchalant in those moments where something bad's happened,
02:13:35
we can't control it now, and then how you defend the standard. So like you watch the military barracks or whatever
02:13:41
when they're going through training, these leaders are like screaming at them
02:13:44
about the standards, about the buttons, about iron your shirt, make your boots clean.
02:13:49
And so it appears on one end that they are petty about something and they are em you know they are these leaders are
02:13:55
emotional. You look at football managers. >> Yeah. >> Or sporting managers.
02:13:59
>> Yeah. >> They they almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy which is like knowing when to
02:14:04
be controlled and then knowing when to be emotionally seemingly emotionally irrational about something.
02:14:12
>> Yeah. And I think those those um specific situations are also part of a system. You know, this is a
02:14:19
system that they've seen produce the outcome that they want. So they know that there's a utility to having that
02:14:25
big reaction or there's a purpose behind it. What I find is the negative is when
02:14:31
you have people who there's not a utility. They just they don't have the
02:14:37
words. the leaders who let's say curse a lot because they don't really have the
02:14:42
vocabulary, you know, they they would rather have big emotional reactions. But the but when you have that type of
02:14:51
language that is not going to show that you're in control of your emotions, you're just less believable.
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>> So that was number three. >> Yeah. >> Stop overexplaining yourself. Yeah,
02:16:52
>> the second one was reducing um distractions and the first was authenticity. Number four,
02:16:57
>> know how to deal with their sadness. A lot of people are hurting that you
02:17:08
don't know are hurting. And a lot of people are grieving that you don't know
02:17:11
are grieving. Whether it's the holidays, whether it's a an important date or event that you
02:17:18
don't know about in their life and they're hurting and grieving. If you really want to be a top level
02:17:24
communicator, you need to know not to say not only when the times are good, but also when the times are are bad.
02:17:31
>> And how does how does one be there for someone when they're going through their
02:17:33
moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about? >> Yeah. But when somebody is grieving,
02:17:40
what you do not do is begin with let me know if if you if if what you are about to say
02:17:50
begins with let me know if it's the wrong thing to say. Let me know if you need anything. Let me know if I can do
02:17:57
anything for you. Hey, just just let me know. Anything you need, let me know. All you're doing is giving them a chore.
02:18:05
This person's already grieving at this moment. They It's They're going through something you
02:18:10
don't even know how to feel and you're now giving them a chore of they're
02:18:15
supposed to be on their own to have the ability to pull out their phone, text their need to you.
02:18:26
That's never going to happen. Have Have you ever had somebody who say, "Let me
02:18:29
know if you need anything." actually let you know that they needed something?
02:18:32
>> Never. >> Never. Because you've now now you've made it more comfortable on you and now
02:18:39
more of an obligation on them. And we go, "Well, you know what? I said all I
02:18:43
need to say. I let me know if you need anything. Let me know how I can help."
02:18:47
Right? When all you've done is just given them an obligation. You've you've
02:18:52
burdened it even more. Of course, they don't want to burden you. They don't
02:18:54
want they don't even want to they don't even want to live in some of these
02:18:57
moments. They they don't want to exist. and they don't know how to do it. And
02:19:01
saying, "Let me know if isn't going to help them." Instead, here's what you do
02:19:05
when somebody's grieving. You do the thing. Whatever you thought about doing,
02:19:10
go do it. If you wanted to bring them dinner or said, "Let me know if you need
02:19:14
any food," just go get them food. Go do the task. Go run the errand. Go show up
02:19:19
and do their laundry. Go mow their yard for them. Go do the thing. If I really want you to be there for me and you
02:19:27
really want to be there for the other person, you don't have to ask. You just
02:19:32
go do. And second of all, I find a lot of time people who are with somebody who's grieving, they don't know what to
02:19:38
say. They want to say something like I I want to say something, but I don't I
02:19:41
don't really know what to say. I just I feel uncomfortable. What I say is not
02:19:45
going to be enough. And so they just stare at their phone and they kind of text out a sentence and they delete it
02:19:48
because they don't really know what to say. The best thing to say is just to
02:19:52
validate how you would assume it's going to be feeling for them. Nobody deserves
02:19:57
what hap that this is totally unfair. I can't believe that this happened. Nobody
02:20:03
deserves this. Be be able to express and confirm that what they're feeling is
02:20:11
exactly what they should be feeling. Don't go in with the, well, at least they're in a better place. Hey, you know
02:20:17
what? Everything happens for a reason. That's not the right time to say that if
02:20:20
ever to to be able to try and make them feel better of oh you know I just at least they're you know not is there
02:20:28
anything I can do any of that kind of stuff it's like yeah I know you can do
02:20:32
you can bring that person back that's what you can do that's not going to
02:20:35
happen you can't do that and so you catch yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest like how many
02:20:40
times people say you're in our thoughts you're my thoughts and prayers thoughts
02:20:44
and prayers you know praying for you and they haven't once sent up a prayer,
02:20:49
right? They're just saying it. If you really mean it, text out the prayer to
02:20:54
them. Text the prayer. Dear God, I'm I just ask that you be with Stephen right now.
02:20:59
And what? Send the prayer to them. Why Why not encourage them in that versus just saying, hey, just keeping you in my
02:21:08
thoughts. If you are, then text them thinking about you. No need to respond. You think just putting it in a Facebook
02:21:16
comment is going to do enough? Just here in our prayers. That's that's not
02:21:21
connection and that's not authentic. That that's that's the easy shortcut.
02:21:25
>> I think I've spent my whole life struggling with those moments where some
02:21:28
something bad has happened to someone or they've been through something and >> yeah,
02:21:32
>> you you found out over text message and you don't know what to say.
02:21:35
>> You don't know what to say. You're like, "I'm so sorry." Um, and the amount of
02:21:42
times I've written something and then deleted it and written something and deleted it. And I actually got some
02:21:46
feedback from Samir, um, who is a a very well-known YouTuber creator, and he's
02:21:52
he's part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir. Their their houses burnt down in the Palisades fire.
02:21:58
And I'd say what, four, five, six months later, he came up to me in New York and
02:22:02
said, um, "Thank you for the message you sent me because it was specific."
02:22:10
And I know there's a cl we have a clip of it cuz we were recording at the time.
02:22:13
We were I just come off stage and he was at his at his event in New York and he'd
02:22:17
come up to me and said it. And it always stayed with me that he remembered 6 months later. I didn't even really
02:22:21
remember the message I sent. He remembered 6 months later that when his house had
02:22:26
>> burnt down, they both just had I think they both had like less than one-year-old kids
02:22:31
>> and both of the houses had burnt down. I sent him something specific I could help
02:22:35
him with. >> I can't I can't remember the details of what I said, but he came up and said,
02:22:40
"Thank you for sending me something. Lots of people sent me messages, but I
02:22:43
remember you sent me something specific." That hits the theme of when you stop trying to be
02:22:50
what's most convenient to you and start doing what might be just a slightly little bit more uncomfortable,
02:22:57
a little bit more work. The choice to do something different and be more specific
02:23:02
in the thought to to not just say so sorry to hear, >> right? That's that's that's injustice to
02:23:10
be I mean that's that doesn't even touch it. But if you were to say you were to
02:23:14
say >> what is happening is totally unfair like agree with it be specific with it. Same
02:23:23
thing with it's the same with compliments. The more specific it is the more genuine it is. The person that you
02:23:29
remember the longest is the person who's able to be right there with you and say
02:23:34
exactly what you're feeling in that moment >> and make a genuine offer to to support a
02:23:39
real Yes. And also not as you said at the start not an offer that they have to accept
02:23:45
>> because no one accepts them. >> Yeah. That or make it a condition that
02:23:50
they have to reach out to you in order to you consider giving it >> instead of just doing it or or even when
02:23:57
you feel that like I don't really know what to to say but I'm you know what if
02:24:02
I were them this is what I'd want and go do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if
02:24:09
you don't mean it. I mean, that's just the to me that's a sign of you're you're not their person because
02:24:18
there's so many people that are just fair weather friends that they they want
02:24:23
to be there and and be part of the success, but when your face is on the floor and you're at rock bottom, the
02:24:29
people you'll remember are the people that show up. >> Amen. I've heard that so many times from
02:24:34
my guests on this podcast where they talk about their hardest moment >> and it's always who who showed up in
02:24:38
that moment that >> um number five. If you want to be a better communicator, you have to know
02:24:44
how to handle the insults, the backbiting, the dismissive, the belittling, the patronizing, the words
02:24:53
that people use to try and inflict pain. What do I do? If you want to handle somebody who's
02:25:01
trying to hurt you with their words, the first thing you have to do is have a bunch of silence or it's five to seven
02:25:09
seconds of nothing. Make it make it enough to where it's uncomfortable where they they know
02:25:15
this is not going to be fun. Number two is you ask them to repeat it. I need you
02:25:22
to say that again. I need you I I need you to repeat that. Most of the time people can't do it. And number three, if
02:25:30
I need to, I ask them, "Did you mean did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound
02:25:39
short? Did you mean for that to sound upsetting?" And what it does is allow
02:25:43
you to be able to operate in a way that doesn't allow their words to hurt you or
02:25:52
to touch you or that cut you. Whenever somebody is saying something that's to belittle you or insult you,
02:26:00
they're they're putting a big spotlight on themselves and they're hoping to
02:26:03
throw it on to you to get your reaction. So, they're going to I'm going to say
02:26:06
something hurtful to you and then it's like they're turning the spotlight right
02:26:09
to you. And then when you ask a question, when you have just silence, it allows their words to kind of echo back
02:26:18
to them. And a lot of people will before they even have to say anything, they'll
02:26:21
go, I I shouldn't have said that. When the more silence you have, the more awkward it becomes and they kind of have
02:26:26
to take it back. They realize you didn't take the bait. But when you put the
02:26:30
spotlight and you ask the question, did you do you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to
02:26:37
sound hurtful? They can't bear the thought of saying yes to that. So, they have to tweak it.
02:26:43
They have to fix it. They have to go, "Oh, no, no, no. I mean, what I mean,
02:26:47
what I meant to say was and they they go a different way." Now, if they were to
02:26:52
double down and say, "Yes, that's exactly what I meant." You get to say,
02:26:55
"Thank you for letting me know." >> I was thinking about like the
02:26:57
neuroscience of what's going on there. >> Yeah. >> When you get someone to admit that
02:27:01
they're hurtful, um I remember interviewing some neuroscientists who talked about this idea of cognitive
02:27:07
dissonance, which is where like we all have a perception of who we are. >> Mh. And I guess by what you're doing
02:27:13
there, you're creating the cognitive dissonance, which is the cognitive mental discomfort by
02:27:21
making me kind of look in the mirror at who I who I just acted like. If I I don't
02:27:27
think I'm a hurtful person. >> If I say something super hurtful and then you ask me if I meant to be
02:27:32
hurtful, you're immediately like speaking to my identity. >> Yes. >> And I don't want I'm not a hurtful
02:27:36
person, >> right? And that's causing the the dissonance which is the sort of the
02:27:40
disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved. >> Yes. >> And so I have to alleviate one of them.
02:27:45
I have to make sense. >> Nobody believes they're on the side of bad. They always think they're in the
02:27:49
side of good. >> So you by you saying that to me, I immediately have to confirm
02:27:53
>> right >> that I am a person who is intent on hurting others. >> Yes.
02:27:58
>> That's not at all what I want to do. I just wanted to gaslight you a little
02:28:00
bit. >> I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And so at that moment, it's what they're
02:28:06
thinking and feeling is I want you to hurt like I'm hurting. I want you I want
02:28:09
to feel the control because I don't have a sense of control now and I'm feeling a
02:28:13
certain way. I'm upset. So if I can make you upset, well then I can have now I
02:28:17
can feel better and more justified about how I'm feeling. And so some people
02:28:21
will, especially the manipulative ones, they'll be upset, say something to make
02:28:26
you upset, and then turn around and go, I don't know why you're so upset.
02:28:30
>> I'm I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't know why you're you're so upset. And
02:28:33
because they've just left you in it now. Now they all they've done is just pass
02:28:36
it on to you. Like I don't like this feeling, so now I'm going to give it to
02:28:40
you and I'm I'm totally good. What are you talking about? >> I had a situation in a gym a long time
02:28:45
ago where I was on a machine and a guy he said that these all these machines were his so he wanted to use them all.
02:28:51
And he just came up to me. This was a long long time ago. And he was so like out of pocket like he was you talked
02:28:59
about being in the pocket. >> Mhm. super emotional within like 15 seconds this sort of slightly older
02:29:04
gentleman and basically like asked me if I wanted to have a fight and it was so bizarre to me that I felt like an
02:29:11
observer and I genuinely >> Anybody else seen this? >> No, it was him in the gym and I was so I
02:29:15
was I felt like David Atenburgh like I was just like >> and I did it and I inadvertently did
02:29:20
what you said which is my tone didn't change at all. I spoke to him like this.
02:29:23
I'm like >> did you just ask me for a fight in the gym? I was like, and then the more cuz I
02:29:28
asked genuinely like like genuine curious questions and it immediately disarmed him.
02:29:33
>> Yes. >> But don't do that to strangers in the gym. Oh my god, my tone was so low.
02:29:37
>> Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are you okay? >> You know, it's you're having to like
02:29:41
have to check on them for a second because most of the time when you're hearing them yell and and say ugly
02:29:47
things, what they're truly signaling is I'm not okay. >> It's there's always something else
02:29:52
that's going on. I've done it before where somebody said something hurtful
02:29:55
and I said, "How did you expect me to respond to that?" Or, "How were you
02:30:00
wanting me to respond to that?" Or, "How did you think I was going to respond?"
02:30:04
And it's I've never had it where they go, "Well, I expected you to say an
02:30:09
insult." Like they it's always them backpedaling and then trying to explain
02:30:14
how they're feeling in that moment because they they don't know they don't
02:30:18
know how to to do it. But if I can stop, put aside like you did your frustration
02:30:24
and say, "Are you asking me for a fight right now?" You know, are is that what
02:30:29
you're really asking for? That kind of are you okay kind of thing? That'll all
02:30:33
of a sudden your frustration now goes away. >> You've changed the frame completely.
02:30:37
>> Absolutely. >> Cuz the frame they wanted was aggression. Maybe that's the the
02:30:41
language or the frame that they know as the way to solve problems. But yours was
02:30:45
like in that scenario changed to curiosity, which was like, "What? How did that
02:30:49
>> Yeah. Anytime you actually have a mindset of instead of having something
02:30:56
well don't have something to prove have something to learn. And so in that moment you could have easily tried to
02:31:02
prove something of who who do you think you're talking to? Do you know what I
02:31:06
you could have played that card instead you actually got >> curious of what's going on here? Are you
02:31:11
asking me for questions are powerful that way. questions are disarming for somebody who's trying to be aggressive
02:31:17
with you because they're not looking for that type of mirror. They don't want a
02:31:22
mirror. They don't want to see the ugly that they're putting out there. But
02:31:26
anytime somebody has that very aggressive, I have so many people who go, if somebody said this to me and was
02:31:33
so ugly and said this horrible thing and they're looking for a quick comeback, which I can give it to them,
02:31:39
but if they really care about the relationship, I say, "Okay, I assume they said it at normal volume. What's
02:31:45
their need? Like, what are they what are they really feeling?" >> Because if you just respond to the
02:31:50
reaction, you're you're not going to hear the end of it. >> And we all have triggers.
02:31:55
>> Same. I I I definitely have mine. I can't I can't I can't say anything. I'll
02:31:59
tell you one of the biggest things that has helped me too in um any any if anybody's wanting to
02:32:08
improve their personal relationships with a partner or anything. It's one is
02:32:13
understanding validate first. Frustration comes le next. If I respond first with frustration, I'm going to
02:32:21
lose every time. So it's validating. It's saying of course you'd feel this
02:32:24
way. It totally makes sense. I can see how you feel that way. Acknowledging that it's okay for them to feel that
02:32:29
way. Otherwise, the partner is going to feel like I'm being too much. And if I'm being too
02:32:34
much, then you're going to leave, right? It's the it's the same sense of
02:32:37
abandonment. So, if I can hit that, you're not being too much. I have the capacity and the I can be elastic in
02:32:43
this relationship because I'm not going to be my best self all the time, too.
02:32:47
But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy, then you're actually going to have that
02:32:52
relationship. Number two, it's understanding that resets is your uno wild card. Asking for a reset for if
02:33:04
I were to say, you know what, I didn't say that right. You know what? Can I can I try that
02:33:08
again? I didn't say that the best way, did I? You know, I I could have done that better. As soon as I start and ask
02:33:15
for a reset, I've never had anybody told me no. Nobody goes, "No, no, you have to
02:33:19
stick with it right now. Go ahead. Keep failing." Like we in a video game, we
02:33:22
wouldn't Why would you keep playing if you knew you're ultimately going to
02:33:25
lose? It's you restart. You try again. And so giving yourself the grace and the
02:33:30
other person the grace to have the ability to start over again is a necessary part of communicating in
02:33:36
relationships. And three is slice it thinner. A lot of the times if we're having a big conversation,
02:33:44
we bring up somebody might bring up the past that past thing and we just kind of
02:33:48
add it on and clummit on when we start to kind of feel hopeless about it. But if I can slice each issue by itself and
02:33:56
say, I do want to talk about this. I want to address what's in front of us first, that makes everything go a whole
02:34:03
lot better. But if I can slice each part and see the need and validate that, I've
02:34:08
always seen that go better. >> And on that first point about um how you engage with your your partner during
02:34:16
conflict, one of the most useful things I heard recently was a clip I actually saw of Bnee Brown talking about when she
02:34:23
comes home after like a long day. >> Yeah. >> She will tell her partner how much she
02:34:28
has in the tank. >> It's so good. And so she'll turn to her partner and say, "Listen, I've got 10%.
02:34:34
>> I can't do this today." >> Right? >> And I remember getting the clip and
02:34:38
sending it to my partner because it's those that's some of the vocabulary that
02:34:42
probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships, which is just first
02:34:46
expressing where I'm operating from. >> So good. >> And I don't think anybody is going to be
02:34:52
on the receiving end of honestly, I've got like 10% in the tank today and go,
02:34:55
"Nope, I want to do this now." Like >> exactly. Well, using percentages in
02:34:59
conversation is incredibly helpful. Both in relationships, like Bnee mentioned, of saying, you know what, I got 10%, you
02:35:05
got 40%, let's put it together, and we're going to make it work, but I at
02:35:08
least know where you're coming from. Same thing at work, right? I've seen
02:35:12
what I encourage is when people are in a meeting and they can put out an idea, right? Rather than going, "What if?"
02:35:20
Because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it, you know? They start pointing arrows at it because it's
02:35:25
because it wasn't their idea. So, we need to tank it down. But if they come at it and say, "Look, I got 30% of an
02:35:32
idea," then what happens magically is that everybody else wants to join in.
02:35:37
So, if I were to say, "Look, I Steve, I got 20% of an idea. I need your help
02:35:42
with the other 80." All of a sudden, you take it as a, "Oh, me? I can I can do
02:35:46
that." And then everybody else starts to build it up rather than trying to tear
02:35:50
it down. Or even if in conversation, if I say, "Look, I know I'm not going to have the right
02:35:55
words. I'm going to have about 60% of it. Like that. At least is me confirming
02:36:00
that I know what I'm saying is not going to always be the right thing to say.
02:36:04
>> I wish I did that more. This is um I believe this is the clip I'm talking
02:36:07
about. It was Tim Ferris. >> Everyone says marriage should be 50/50. It's the biggest crack of [ __ ] I've
02:36:12
ever heard. It's never 50/50. >> Yeah. >> Ever. And so what we do is we quantify
02:36:17
where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like, I got 20. Just in terms
02:36:21
of energy, >> just energy, investment, kindness, patience, I'm at a 20 and I'll be like,
02:36:28
I'll cover you. I got you, brother. Like, I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we
02:36:32
come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've
02:36:37
got 10. And Steo, like two days ago said, I'm riding a solid 25. So, we know
02:36:43
that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than 100 combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward
02:36:49
each other. >> Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing is marriage is not something that's
02:36:53
50/50. A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20,
02:37:02
you have a plan where you don't hurt each other. >> So good. >> That's the mistake I've made multiple
02:37:06
times. >> Oh. I try and solve big problems with 10. >> That's the mistake we make every day.
02:37:10
>> Yeah. I mean, for me and with Sierra and I, it's usually if we're in a part of an
02:37:14
argument, typically our arguments end pretty quickly, but the ones that go long,
02:37:20
it's sometimes, you know, I just don't feel like it. You know, I I could give
02:37:24
an apology, you could give an apology, and some I just don't feel I don't feel
02:37:26
like being sorry right now. I will later, but I in the moment, I'm just >> I I I I just got this stuff in me and
02:37:33
I'm not ready yet. And so what happens for me and what's been so helpful is
02:37:38
when I'm aggravated at that edge and I don't want to give a thing is to say
02:37:44
my battery's in the red like we say in the red because of >> you know iPhone it's like I'm once I
02:37:49
know I'm in that place we know to time out because it's or else you'd be two
02:37:53
hours in and you're still now you've just said way worse things you know that
02:37:58
you're going to apologize for and so often when the quicker you can get to a
02:38:02
timeout like if you want to know how well a a relationship communicates. Look how often they take timeouts because
02:38:09
timeouts are I mean they're the the amount of value you get in just a pause and then even five minutes
02:38:20
coming back to it. you have a different like okay here we go like a fresh fresh start like why would you leave somebody
02:38:27
on the field for three hours and never give them a rest and you think I can't I
02:38:34
we do it physically but I'm not going to do it mentally like if you if you want
02:38:38
to know the key to the relationship the metric that is the most valuable key to a relationship is that the measure
02:38:52
The quality of the conversation is equal to the quality of the relationship. Said differently, the
02:38:59
quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the communication. You look at all these couples that are
02:39:06
divorcing, okay? Or the couples that are in bad states. It's because they were okay in the
02:39:16
positive, but they don't know how to deal deal with the negative. So, it's
02:39:21
it's the measure of not just can we talk about the happy stuff, the if you talk I
02:39:26
I talk to these elderly couples that have been married for 50 years and I say, "What's what's your secret?" It's
02:39:32
it's not can you be happy in the happy. It's can you how long can you sit with
02:39:37
the hard and how how long can you be in the in the sad times because those are going to happen. And I see that so many
02:39:44
with the people. There's so many people who communicate with me or message or
02:39:49
and they're going through a divorce or they have been divorced and you realize
02:39:53
that it's it's not often that they fell out of love. They fell out of communication. They they stopped talking
02:40:01
to each other. This is I think one of the great myths we're sold when we get into our first
02:40:06
relationship is we think that the sign of a good relationship is the lack of conflict. But if you've ever been in a
02:40:12
long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that it's not the amount
02:40:16
of conflict. It's like it's it's how one manages the conflict. I read a quote
02:40:21
which I've never forgotten which said you can predict the long-term health of
02:40:24
a relationship by whether each cut heals to 101% or 99%. >> I.e. does your conflict make you
02:40:31
stronger? >> Yeah. And if I look back through the conflict that I've had with like my
02:40:34
partner that I've been with a long time now, I go it has actually deepened the roots.
02:40:41
>> Yeah, it has to >> like it's been productive conflict. >> Mhm.
02:40:44
>> You know, which has made us stronger. Um and that and that in part is because of
02:40:49
many of the things that you talk about which is like trying not to win every argument,
02:40:54
>> right? >> And all the things in your book. It's >> Yeah. Well, that's Sierra. That's what
02:40:59
Sierra talks about. Either way, it's good. Like it's the conflict. You want
02:41:02
conflict in your relationship for the growth. It is rare that you can have individual growth alone.
02:41:09
>> It has to be relational >> 100%. >> It has to be with other people. I I I
02:41:13
can read a book on how to do something, but until I do it, >> it's it's a totally different game. So I
02:41:20
I I learn relationally with things and with other people and places, but for sure
02:41:26
relationship, I mean, there's just no there's no other way to go around it.
02:41:30
you have to have the conflict if you want to be if you want to be better. And I I've seen so many times where the
02:41:36
people um they face in their hands, they don't know how to talk to one another because they gave
02:41:45
up on trying to repair, but they're they're all in on trying to blame. Mhm.
02:41:50
>> And so when you are trying to kind of undo what has to be done that makes it all the more difficult because
02:41:57
it's just so many years where there could have been repair but there there hasn't been and in turn that really
02:42:04
hurts the relationship. I read a recent study that the biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental
02:42:13
relationship is not whether they were married or divorced. It was how they dealt with
02:42:19
conflict. >> I mean, because how many people have had parents that are still together but
02:42:24
fight terribly? >> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. >> And in in fact should probably maybe not
02:42:28
be together. >> Yeah. >> Or those that they're divorced but communicate. Great.
02:42:35
>> Yeah. >> And they never put their child in the middle of it and didn't use the child as
02:42:39
a a male carrier between the two. to to be able to do that is I mean you're you
02:42:45
get to change the whole trajectory of of a child's life >> at some point. We have to forgive our
02:42:49
parents, right? >> Yeah, that's that's the truth. >> Like you said, like they were they were
02:42:54
kids too, raised by parents that >> this is their first time still doing it.
02:42:58
You know, >> you have a workbook on its way in March 10th called the next conversation
02:43:05
workbook. >> Yeah. practical exercises for arguing less and talking more, which really
02:43:09
takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into an actionable blueprint framework for people that
02:43:14
really want to embed these habits into their lives. Um, I'm going to link that
02:43:19
below. Is that available for pre-order? Will it be? Yeah, there'll be a pre-order link. So, we'll put that in
02:43:22
the description below. You're also working on some AI stuff, which I think was interesting.
02:43:25
>> Yeah. Thank you. So, I'm about to release an AI of just my content. So it
02:43:31
has my book, it has my podcasts, it has my you any of my social clips of it has it all. And so it's a small language
02:43:38
model to where it's everybody can have their own personal communication expert,
02:43:43
you know, 247 kind of thing. It's what they have on it, but where people get to
02:43:48
practice. So what I love about it the most is let's say you you say I'm about
02:43:53
to go into a important meeting and I want to sound really confident. What can I do? or I'm about to have a my spouse
02:44:00
isn't listening or really upset. What could I do? You apply those right in that that moment and gives you a
02:44:07
different way of perspecting a different way of seeing things from a different view or what I definitely what I've uh
02:44:15
like is to tell it to be a boss. Be my boss who's really mean and arrogant and
02:44:21
let's do an exercise of how to respond to this situation. and you test is that
02:44:27
response going to be the best response and allow it to kind of have a a different way of practicing things that
02:44:34
maybe you need to be ready for cuz some people need to be ready for the hard response.
02:44:37
>> I'll link that below too. >> Yeah. >> So people can have a play with that and
02:44:41
sign up. >> I'm excited. >> We have a closing tradition where the
02:44:43
last guest leaves a question for the next question left for you is who are you most dying to meet and why?
02:44:50
>> Oh, that's a great one. um person I would love to meet right now is probably Bnee Brown. That's probably
02:45:02
it. Really, the fact that you brought her up. The reason why is because >> I know that she's been in the space a
02:45:09
long time. And I feel that when she shares stuff, it's very genuine. Like there's no guessing that she's real.
02:45:18
>> Yeah. She's about as real and raw as authentic as you can get. She's also a
02:45:23
Longhorn Texas Longhorn fan which I'm a fan, but I feel like when and this is
02:45:28
just me personally, I kind of got pushed into this field and you you always look for people that
02:45:36
are your own anchors in life of who you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing.
02:45:40
And that's somebody who's I feel like has been in the the world and and knows some
02:45:47
things and has just some incredible knowledge that's helped a lot of people.
02:45:52
>> She's most certainly authentic. She's incredible. >> Yeah.
02:45:55
>> Well, I listen, if people haven't bought your book, which is almost nobody, but
02:45:59
if there are still some people out there that have haven't bought this book, I
02:46:02
highly recommend it. I think I um included it in my Smith collection as well in the UK. You did such a smash hit
02:46:09
success. It's a success on two dimensions. It's sales and it's impact.
02:46:13
>> Thank you. >> And um it's also incredibly accessible. So it's not like a a complicated science
02:46:18
book and it's written for normal people that are going through very real relatable normal problems. And um I
02:46:24
think that's why it's been so successful. I think you you approach these challenges from a very real place.
02:46:29
And maybe that's in part why it's been so wonderfully received and so relatable
02:46:34
is because, you know, you're a trial attorney that's bringing this stuff to
02:46:39
the masses, but you're not like a PhD scholar who might have draw thrown up the drawbridge because they they they've
02:46:45
spent all their life in academia. >> And I think the way that you communicate
02:46:49
is so relatable and resonant that it's no wonder that you're you've been on an
02:46:53
absolute unbelievable terror over the last couple years. >> It's phenomenal. Like crazy crazy
02:46:58
incredible. So congratulations and thank you from all the people that you've
02:47:01
given thanks man >> a little bit of light to a little bit of um >> you've empowered them with information
02:47:07
so that they can live the life that they um they deserve to live. That's a special thing Jefferson.
02:47:10
>> I appreciate it. Thank you Ste. >> If there's anything we need it is
02:47:17
connection especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why
02:47:21
we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep,
02:47:27
intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At
02:47:34
the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the
02:47:37
next guest, and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've
02:47:41
added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the
02:47:47
way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first
02:47:50
time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting
02:47:57
the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards
02:48:03
are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.