00:00:00
This could be the last time I speak
00:00:03
about myself, my work, because there's a
00:00:05
chance that I might not make it off the
00:00:07
operating table this month. And a
00:00:09
journalist who has very bad blood
00:00:11
towards me has been trying to publish a
00:00:14
story on me for more than 2 years now,
00:00:16
and it will come out in the next month
00:00:18
or two. And I didn't want that to be the
00:00:19
last word on my life.
00:00:21
>> What do you want the last word of your
00:00:23
life to be?
00:00:24
>> I'm here to communicate about the
00:00:25
possibility of a major forgotten episode
00:00:28
in Human Story. I'm talking about a lost
00:00:30
civilization.
00:00:32
>> So, most people think civilization
00:00:34
started 6,000 years ago.
00:00:35
>> Yes.
00:00:36
>> But you believe there's strong evidence
00:00:37
that there could have been a previous
00:00:38
civilization
00:00:39
>> 20,000 years ago. And I'm going to
00:00:41
present the evidence for that here,
00:00:42
Stephen. And it suggests a golden age
00:00:45
where there was no violence, no cruelty,
00:00:47
where great healers and sages were at
00:00:49
work. They're extremely sophisticated.
00:00:51
However, if you follow the myths
00:00:53
further, as I've done, you find
00:00:54
something odd happens. We find that they
00:00:56
stepped away from the original purity
00:00:58
and become a culture that begins to
00:01:00
impose its power on others around the
00:01:02
world. And then sewn into those myths is
00:01:04
scientific information which record a
00:01:06
gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out
00:01:09
the human race.
00:01:10
>> If what you're saying is true, what does
00:01:12
that mean for our lives? I guess also
00:01:14
our future.
00:01:15
>> Well, there's always this feeling in the
00:01:16
myth that we brought this upon
00:01:18
ourselves. And when I look at our
00:01:19
civilization today, I see a civilization
00:01:22
that ticks all the mythological boxes
00:01:24
for the next lost civilization. And that
00:01:26
we are most likely to be the cause of
00:01:28
that cataclysm ourselves. Unless we wake
00:01:31
up.
00:01:33
Graeme Hancock, what will you care about
00:01:35
on your last day?
00:01:39
>> Most of all,
00:01:44
this is super interesting to me. My team
00:01:46
given me this report to show me how many
00:01:47
of you that watch this show subscribe.
00:01:49
And some of you have told us according
00:01:50
to this that you are unsubscribed from
00:01:52
the channel randomly. So favor to ask
00:01:54
all of you, please could you check right
00:01:56
now if you've hit the subscribe button
00:01:57
if you are a regular viewer of this show
00:01:59
and you like what we do here. We're
00:02:00
approaching quite a significant landmark
00:02:02
on this show in terms of a subscriber
00:02:03
number. So, if there was one simple free
00:02:06
thing that you could do to help us, my
00:02:08
team, everyone here, to keep this show
00:02:10
free, to keep it improving year over
00:02:12
year and week over week, it is just to
00:02:14
hit that subscribe button and to double
00:02:15
check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
00:02:16
ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If
00:02:18
you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
00:02:20
I'll make sure every single week, every
00:02:22
single month, we fight harder and harder
00:02:24
and harder and harder to bring you the
00:02:25
guests and conversations that you want
00:02:26
to hear. I've stayed true to that
00:02:28
promise since the very beginning of the
00:02:29
D of Sio, and I will not let you down.
00:02:32
Please help us. Really appreciate it.
00:02:33
Let's get on with the show.
00:02:38
>> Bram Hancock, I guess the first question
00:02:41
I wanted to ask you is what is it you've
00:02:43
committed the last more than 30 years of
00:02:45
your life to understanding
00:02:48
>> what it is is a a puzzle.
00:02:51
I'm puzzled by aspects of the human
00:02:54
past. There could be, and I think
00:02:58
there's a lot to suggest there was, a
00:03:00
major forgotten episode in the human
00:03:02
story. That's why I refer to us as a
00:03:05
species with amnesia. When I use that
00:03:07
phrase, I need to give credit to Emanuel
00:03:10
Velikovski who wrote a book called
00:03:12
mankind in Amnesia. I think we are a
00:03:14
species with amnesia. I think we have
00:03:16
forgotten something very important in
00:03:18
our own past. And when I turn to the
00:03:22
experts, I find much of what they say
00:03:24
very interesting and very useful. but
00:03:26
some of what they say extremely
00:03:28
unsatisfactory and and not responding to
00:03:31
the problems that that I have in the
00:03:33
past. And that's led me to to take my
00:03:36
own approach to the past to look at that
00:03:38
and and to offer uh readers because I'm
00:03:41
mainly an author occasionally make TV
00:03:43
shows to offer them an alternative point
00:03:45
of view which is rational and and and
00:03:48
solidly based but which is contrary to
00:03:52
key aspects of the mainstream narrative.
00:03:55
We only have decipherable written
00:03:57
scripts from the last 5 and a half
00:04:00
thousand years maximum. Before that, we
00:04:02
don't have any any writing that we can
00:04:05
at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15,
00:04:08
20,000 years. All you can base it on
00:04:11
from an archaeological point of view is
00:04:13
what they can dig out of the ground. And
00:04:16
I think what they're missing, the
00:04:18
ancients did leave us memories of what
00:04:20
they went through. We have myths and
00:04:24
traditions and scriptures from all
00:04:27
around the world which record a gigantic
00:04:30
cataclysm affecting the human race and
00:04:34
all but wiping out the human race.
00:04:35
Everybody knows the story of the flood
00:04:37
of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is
00:04:39
just an one example of hundreds like
00:04:42
that of stories from around the world.
00:04:44
Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's
00:04:48
story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is
00:04:51
another of those stories that remembers
00:04:52
a global flood that wiped out a former
00:04:55
era of existence, leaving only a few
00:04:57
survivors. And the archaeological
00:04:59
response to them is there was a local
00:05:02
river flood. They exaggerated it. It was
00:05:05
a big deal for them. So they said it
00:05:07
happened to the whole world. And I'm
00:05:08
sick of archaeologists saying that. This
00:05:10
is the memory banks of our species. This
00:05:13
is the record, the only record we have
00:05:15
of a period before 6,000 years ago. And
00:05:18
we shouldn't despise it and scorn it as
00:05:20
primitive superstition. We should say,
00:05:22
what can we find in here that we can
00:05:25
coordinate with scientific facts that
00:05:26
we're aware of? Let's see if there's
00:05:28
something to this rather than just
00:05:30
dismissing it. Many of these myths
00:05:33
contain imagery and a series of numbers.
00:05:37
A very important academic study
00:05:39
published in the 1960s a book called
00:05:41
Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santilana,
00:05:44
professor of the history of science at
00:05:46
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
00:05:48
and Hera Vondes, professor of history of
00:05:50
science. This is not me speaking. This
00:05:52
is major major historians of science in
00:05:54
the 1960s. They found encoded in those
00:05:57
myths numbers and imagery that could
00:05:59
only relate to one thing and that's an
00:06:01
obscure astronomical phenomenon called
00:06:03
the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not
00:06:05
going to go into the technical details,
00:06:07
but to observe it and to record it and
00:06:09
to predict it, to predict its effects in
00:06:11
the future involves very precise
00:06:13
astronomical observations maintained
00:06:15
over a very long period of time,
00:06:17
hundreds and hundreds of years at least.
00:06:19
So here we have myths of a global
00:06:21
cataclysm. There is just so much else.
00:06:23
There are ancient maps that show the
00:06:24
world as it looked during the ice age,
00:06:26
again dismissed as just total
00:06:28
coincidence and not significant by
00:06:29
archaeology. I feel that archaeology has
00:06:32
failed miserably in providing a
00:06:34
nurturing satisfying answer to the
00:06:36
questions we all have.
00:06:38
>> So when you say global cataclysm
00:06:41
>> what does that mean? Means that some
00:06:43
something hit the planet there was we
00:06:45
were wiped out.
00:06:46
>> Yeah. There there there are a number of
00:06:48
options and again I need to stress this
00:06:50
because because there's so much
00:06:52
propaganda in this business I'll be
00:06:53
immediately accused of lunatic fringe.
00:06:56
The solid science that's been done on
00:06:58
this uh is twofold. One aspect of it,
00:07:02
the one that I think I find most
00:07:04
persuasive is called the younger drius
00:07:05
impact hypothesis. And this is a
00:07:07
mainstream hypothesis, but it is
00:07:10
severely criticized within academia. The
00:07:13
hypothesis is that about 20,000 years
00:07:16
ago, a very large comet came in from
00:07:21
deep space and went into orbit around
00:07:23
the sun. This would be a comet of a
00:07:25
diameter of 100 kilometers, maybe 200.
00:07:29
Comes in, gets captured by the sun's
00:07:31
gravity, goes into an orbit. That orbit
00:07:33
crosses the orbit of the Earth. While
00:07:36
you're dealing with one large object,
00:07:38
the chances of getting hit are extremely
00:07:41
low. It would be very bad if you did,
00:07:43
but very low. Trouble is, nobody
00:07:47
disputes this. Once comets are caught by
00:07:49
the gravitational field of a very large
00:07:51
planet or of a sun, they start to break
00:07:53
up into multiple parts. And this is what
00:07:55
happened to the younger dryass comet.
00:07:57
Instead of being a single bullet, it
00:07:59
became a shotgun blast. It became
00:08:01
thousands and thousands of objects of
00:08:03
which we've cataloged quite a lot.
00:08:05
Numbers of them, comet Enki is the best
00:08:07
known bit of that former comet. Many of
00:08:10
the academics who look at this think
00:08:12
that comet Enki which is about six
00:08:14
kilometers in diameter and which does
00:08:15
cross the orbit of the earth they think
00:08:17
that that was the source comet but
00:08:20
whereas the other team are saying no
00:08:21
that's a bit of the source comet there
00:08:24
were many other bits as well and 12,800
00:08:26
years ago 12,860
00:08:28
approximately the earth went into a
00:08:30
storm of these fragments none of them
00:08:34
big enough to compare with the object
00:08:36
that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million
00:08:38
years ago but all over the world. The
00:08:40
earth is turning. This stuff comes in.
00:08:42
They found it in the west coast of North
00:08:44
America. They found it in Belgium. And
00:08:47
they found it as far east as Syria. So,
00:08:49
it's like the earth turns and this stuff
00:08:51
is just coming in. Most of it is blowing
00:08:54
up in the air. It isn't even hitting the
00:08:55
ground. But an air burst from an object
00:08:58
that might be 100 meters in diameter is
00:09:00
equivalent to a very substantial nuclear
00:09:01
blast. So, their argument is the Earth
00:09:04
was hit by a comet storm. And this they
00:09:08
then argue, and I think they're right,
00:09:10
uh, explains what happened then because
00:09:12
12,800 years ago, we were still in the
00:09:15
ice age. Uh, but the earth was coming
00:09:18
out of the ice age. In fact, for about
00:09:20
a,00 maybe 2,000 years before that, the
00:09:23
earth had been getting warmer, getting
00:09:25
quite nice. And you would normally
00:09:27
expect that to continue. But then
00:09:29
suddenly, 12,800
00:09:31
years ago, give or take, 60 years,
00:09:34
there's a huge interruption. There's a
00:09:36
radical change. The earth instead of
00:09:39
warming, it suddenly goes back into a
00:09:41
massive deep freeze. And this is the
00:09:43
time when all the famous big animals of
00:09:47
the ice age, the megapora are wiped out.
00:09:49
The the woolly mammoths, the mastadons,
00:09:51
the giant sloths, these things like 14
00:09:54
ft tall, you know, they're all they're
00:09:55
all wiped out in that window around
00:09:57
about 12,800 years ago. And most
00:10:00
important of all, there's a very
00:10:02
mysterious sea level rise that occurs
00:10:04
then. This you would not expect when the
00:10:06
earth is entering a cold phase. Normally
00:10:09
when earth enters a cold phase, ice
00:10:11
accumulates on the existing ice caps. It
00:10:14
doesn't melt and go into the sea. So the
00:10:17
next thing is how do we explain this
00:10:19
sudden rise in sea levels at the
00:10:20
beginning of younger drives? It
00:10:22
shouldn't have happened. The comet
00:10:24
theory explains it perfectly. the the
00:10:26
the mass, the impact, the heat, the air
00:10:28
bursts, that would have been enough to
00:10:30
send the ice sheets into meltdown and to
00:10:33
cause this pulse of melt water. Then the
00:10:35
freeze sets in, you have about 1,200
00:10:38
years of freezing, desperately cold
00:10:41
conditions. And then again, 11,600 years
00:10:44
ago, womph, it suddenly warms up. I
00:10:46
mean, these are radical climate changes.
00:10:48
They're beyond anything that's happening
00:10:49
now. And uh I I think explanations are
00:10:52
needed for them. And because 12,800
00:10:55
years ago may sound a long time ago, but
00:10:57
it's really yesterday in the human
00:10:59
story. Uh, so something very big
00:11:02
happened to the Earth and happened to
00:11:04
our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it
00:11:07
wasn't a comet, another theory that's
00:11:09
been put forward is a radical change in
00:11:11
solar activity. This might have been
00:11:12
involved with it as well. I don't find
00:11:15
that as persuasive as the younger dus
00:11:17
impact hypothesis. And you know maybe
00:11:19
some other explanation will come up but
00:11:20
what nobody disputes is that the younger
00:11:22
dus was a catastrophe. Uh it was global
00:11:26
uh and and it had huge effects.
00:11:28
>> You um you chose intentionally to come
00:11:30
and have this conversation today.
00:11:33
>> Why today?
00:11:35
>> Well I've been quite unwell really
00:11:38
noticeably unwell since uh January
00:11:40
February uh this year particularly very
00:11:44
very short of breath. It's it's because
00:11:45
the one of the failed valves in my my
00:11:48
heart is um causing blood to regurgitate
00:11:51
inside the heart rather than pumping it
00:11:53
through the body. And that means that
00:11:54
oxygenated blood is not getting to my
00:11:56
lungs. I probably would live another two
00:11:59
or three years without the surgery,
00:12:00
maybe maybe even five, but the quality
00:12:03
of life would be very low. I I can't
00:12:04
even walk up three stairs without being
00:12:06
being exhausted at the moment. So, I've
00:12:08
definitely decided to to have the
00:12:10
surgery. Why am I doing this interview
00:12:11
now rather than postponing it until
00:12:13
after the surgery and I've recovered?
00:12:14
Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely
00:12:17
minuscule chance that I might not make
00:12:20
it off the operating table
00:12:21
>> this month.
00:12:22
>> Yeah, this month. And if that were the
00:12:25
case, uh this would be the last time
00:12:28
I've spoken about myself, my work, my
00:12:31
life, challenges I faced, uh in an open
00:12:34
forum like this. And and and I I I
00:12:37
choose to do that. And I'm going to say
00:12:39
specifically why without giving without
00:12:42
mentioning names. I choose to do that
00:12:44
because a journalist uh who has very bad
00:12:48
blood towards me has been trying to
00:12:51
publish a story on me for more than two
00:12:53
years now. Uh and it will come out in
00:12:55
the next in the next month or two. And I
00:12:57
didn't want that to be the last word of
00:12:59
my life. That's why I'm here. Stephen,
00:13:03
>> what do you want the last word of your
00:13:04
life to be?
00:13:06
I would I would hope that people will
00:13:09
come to understand that I'm not the
00:13:11
person that
00:13:13
a very small minority of archaeologists
00:13:16
have mobilized social media to present
00:13:18
me as. I'm not a grifter. I'm not a
00:13:21
hoaxer. I'm not a con man. I'm deeply
00:13:23
committed to this. I've devoted my life
00:13:25
to it for more than for more than 30
00:13:27
years. I'm passionate about it. It
00:13:29
matters to me. And I think again I'll be
00:13:32
laughed at for saying this, but I feel
00:13:33
called to do this. I feel I
00:13:37
I feel it's my obligation and my
00:13:39
responsibility to do this.
00:13:41
>> How is that disputed? Because I I guess
00:13:44
I need to understand human history to
00:13:46
understand why
00:13:47
>> the the the fundamental belief that you
00:13:49
have that there was a civilization that
00:13:51
we aren't talking about.
00:13:54
>> I'd like to be clear. It's not a belief.
00:13:56
Um this is another is a mistake that my
00:13:58
that my critics of often make. They they
00:14:00
think that I'm dealing with some sort of
00:14:01
belief system or some sort of cult here.
00:14:03
No, I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm
00:14:06
just puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled
00:14:09
by the memories that have been passed
00:14:11
down to us and I'm puzzled that those
00:14:13
memories concur all around the world on
00:14:17
a serious cataclysmic event.
00:14:19
>> What is it that the your people that
00:14:22
aren't puzzled and are certain belief?
00:14:24
>> Yeah. They think that glacial lakes in
00:14:26
North America
00:14:28
gradually grew in size and overspilled
00:14:31
the ice dams that held them in place and
00:14:34
that the water from those lakes, some of
00:14:37
it went into the Atlantic Ocean and cut
00:14:39
the Gulf Stream. I don't dispute that
00:14:42
glacial lakes were involved, but those
00:14:43
lakes were filled up at a massive speed.
00:14:47
Nobody disputes that the Younger Dryus
00:14:48
was a cataclysmic event. It's just the
00:14:50
the degree of the cataclysm that's
00:14:52
disputed and what caused it that's
00:14:54
disputed.
00:14:55
>> But everyone agrees that humans are 300
00:14:59
15,000 years.
00:15:00
>> I mean at present when I started on this
00:15:03
quest back back in the late 80s early
00:15:06
90s it was felt that anatomically modern
00:15:09
human beings had not existed for more
00:15:11
than 50,000 years. Very recent really.
00:15:15
But this turned out to be complete
00:15:17
rubbish because anatomically modern
00:15:19
humans are much older than 50,000 years
00:15:21
ago. We have 196,000y old anatomically
00:15:25
modern human remains from Ethiopia. And
00:15:28
then finally 315,000
00:15:31
years ago a recent find in um Gibir Hood
00:15:35
in Morocco again anatomically modern
00:15:38
humans. So we can say that
00:15:41
if we define ourselves by our anatomy,
00:15:46
uh, brain size,
00:15:48
capacity of the skull, if we define
00:15:50
ourselves in those ways, we've been
00:15:51
around for at least 315,000 years and
00:15:53
probably much longer. That's that's just
00:15:55
an accident of discovery. And that's one
00:15:57
of the things that puzzles me. If we're
00:16:00
anatomically modern, if we've got all
00:16:02
the modern kit, if we've got the same
00:16:03
brains, we've got the same neurology,
00:16:05
everything is there. Why do we wait more
00:16:09
than 300,000 years to establish
00:16:13
something recognizable as a human
00:16:15
civilization? Why do we wait so long? We
00:16:18
got all the kit. There's evidence that
00:16:20
that our ancestors were aware of
00:16:22
agriculture, just chose not to use it
00:16:24
much, much much earlier than that. the
00:16:27
complex of events that leads to a
00:16:30
city-based civilization, which is the
00:16:33
kind of civilization we have now all
00:16:35
over the world that you can only really
00:16:38
trace that back to 6,000 years ago. Yes,
00:16:41
you can say that before 6,000 years ago
00:16:43
there was buildup to what became the
00:16:46
high civilizations.
00:16:48
But my question is why not much earlier?
00:16:51
Why why did we wait until that moment?
00:16:54
And and I don't find a satisfactory
00:16:56
answer to that question, except perhaps
00:16:58
we didn't wait. Perhaps we're missing
00:17:00
part of our story. And when I say a lost
00:17:03
civilization, I do not mean a
00:17:05
civilization like ours. I do not mean an
00:17:08
industrial civilization. I don't mean
00:17:10
they had cell phones or flew to the moon
00:17:13
or any of that I think they
00:17:14
were very different civilization from
00:17:16
ours. But they had conquered a number of
00:17:19
peaks and one of those peaks was
00:17:21
navigation and ocean seafaring. Hence
00:17:24
the survival of maps which show the
00:17:26
world as it looked during the ice age.
00:17:28
And another was astronomy. Uh and
00:17:32
another really important breakthrough
00:17:35
evidenced by by the ancient maps
00:17:37
particularly a category of maps called
00:17:38
the portalanos
00:17:40
um is accurate relative longitudes. This
00:17:43
is the Arantius Phineas map. It shows
00:17:45
Antarctica uh right there. Uh and and um
00:17:50
this is interesting because this map was
00:17:51
drawn in 1531.
00:17:53
Uh the problem is that our civilization
00:17:56
didn't discover Antarctica until 1820.
00:17:59
So its appearance on a map drawn in
00:18:01
1521,
00:18:03
particularly when we know that the map
00:18:06
was based on older source maps. And the
00:18:08
map maker tells us in his own legend
00:18:10
that he has uncovered material
00:18:12
previously hidden in darkness. When we
00:18:15
find that uh we have to begin to wonder
00:18:17
what is what is going on here. Had
00:18:19
somebody found Antarctica long before
00:18:22
long before we did uh and mapped it with
00:18:25
extremely accurate relative longitudes.
00:18:28
And that's important because our
00:18:30
civilization didn't crack the longitude
00:18:32
problem until the mid- 18th century.
00:18:34
What that meant was that if you're on a
00:18:36
vessel sailing west or east, uh you
00:18:39
might be 300 miles closer to a coastline
00:18:43
than you think you are and suddenly
00:18:45
you're on it in the night and you're
00:18:46
dead. Once you've got longitude work
00:18:48
out, you know exactly where you are. We
00:18:50
didn't get that until 1750, 1760
00:18:52
thereabouts with Harrison's chronometer.
00:18:55
So finding good longitudes on very
00:18:57
ancient maps is another puzzle that I
00:18:58
don't think archaeology solved. So, you
00:19:00
think there could have been a
00:19:01
civilization 20,000 years ago which was
00:19:03
before this young dryest moment where um
00:19:06
I mean I've got this photo here which
00:19:07
I'll throw up on the screen.
00:19:09
>> Yeah.
00:19:09
>> I think you say it's evidence that
00:19:11
something took place.
00:19:12
>> It is that's that's the younger dry
00:19:14
boundary. Uh and I'm with Alan West
00:19:15
who's one of the scientists from the
00:19:17
from the comet research group who are
00:19:19
working on the younger dry hypothesis.
00:19:21
And our hands are on that black stripe
00:19:23
running through the middle of the
00:19:24
drawer. And that is soot. That is
00:19:27
evidence of wildfires burning. Uh it's
00:19:30
full of nano diamonds, tiny little
00:19:32
diamonds microscopic size which are a
00:19:34
classic product of comet impacts. Uh
00:19:37
microspherules, some platinum, some
00:19:40
iridium. All signatures of a cometry
00:19:42
impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in
00:19:45
thick. That layer is the younger dus
00:19:47
boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years
00:19:49
ago.
00:19:50
>> So for anyone that can't see, it's just
00:19:52
like a slice of earth. And there's this
00:19:53
black line going through through the
00:19:55
earth. We're in a draw here where a
00:19:57
river has cut a channel and it's exposed
00:19:59
the sides of the channel and on the
00:20:01
sides of the channel we can see this
00:20:02
black stripe running through and that is
00:20:04
precisely the younger driest boundary
00:20:06
>> and the current hypothesis is from a lot
00:20:08
of archaeologists is there wasn't a
00:20:10
human civilization before this point
00:20:12
12,000 years ago but you believe there's
00:20:14
strong evidence that there could have
00:20:15
been.
00:20:15
>> Yes.
00:20:16
>> So civilization then in your definition
00:20:18
of the word how do you define that? a
00:20:20
group of people gathering and working
00:20:22
together.
00:20:22
>> Fundamentally, it involves it involves
00:20:25
the willing organization or the
00:20:27
unwilling organization of labor. If you
00:20:29
look at a site like Gobeci in Turkey, we
00:20:32
have it on our timeline here somewhere.
00:20:34
It's 11,600
00:20:36
years old. Uh this is really an
00:20:39
extraordinary site. It's a it's a very
00:20:42
sophisticated site. It's very large. It
00:20:44
consists of large T-shaped megaliths
00:20:46
that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are
00:20:49
precise astronomical alignments in it.
00:20:52
Uh this was not done by two or three
00:20:54
people working together. This was well
00:20:56
that's the gobeci today covered by a a
00:20:58
modern canopy to keep uh fair enough to
00:21:02
keep the the weather off it because it
00:21:03
was previously deliberately buried by
00:21:05
its builders. Um but of course there's
00:21:07
much more around. Hundreds and hundreds
00:21:10
more pillars are still underground. We
00:21:11
know they're there because of ground
00:21:13
penetrating radar, but they've not been
00:21:15
excavated yet. So, so this was a major
00:21:17
project and interestingly the people who
00:21:20
built Gobeclet at that at the time
00:21:22
Gobeclet began there was no agriculture
00:21:25
happening there. They were all hunter
00:21:27
gatherers.
00:21:28
>> Mhm.
00:21:29
>> Nevertheless, they did something that
00:21:30
archaeologists used to say hunter
00:21:32
gatherers couldn't do. They organized
00:21:34
themselves. They made a huge project.
00:21:37
They implemented it and they delivered
00:21:38
it. And Gobecletep is not alone. It's
00:21:40
one of dozens of sites like that all
00:21:42
over Anatolia in in in Turkey. This was
00:21:45
a highly organized, sophisticated
00:21:47
huntergatherer civilization that was
00:21:49
involved in making this place.
00:21:51
>> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So, if
00:21:53
the ice age ended 11,700 years ago,
00:21:56
>> Yeah.
00:21:56
>> and Gbecki is 11,600 years ago,
00:22:00
>> that means there's a 100redyear gap
00:22:02
between the end of the ice age and
00:22:04
something as sophisticated as Gabbecki.
00:22:07
>> Not exactly. Because because dates in
00:22:09
this frame, they're not spot-on accurate
00:22:13
dates. Some will say the ice age ended
00:22:14
11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700
00:22:18
years ago. But the fact is that in this
00:22:20
window, the world was warming up again.
00:22:23
It was getting better. And that's when
00:22:25
this project was was created. And the
00:22:28
mystery is mystery for for
00:22:30
archaeologists anyway is that it was
00:22:31
hunter gatherers. And archaeologists are
00:22:33
now having to come to terms with that.
00:22:35
You see the idea was you had to have an
00:22:37
agricultural community first in order to
00:22:40
create projects like this because that
00:22:42
allows people to become specialists.
00:22:44
What if you generate a food surplus that
00:22:47
you can rely on then you can take people
00:22:49
with certain skills and say focus on
00:22:51
that become an astronomer become an
00:22:52
architect become an engineer we'll
00:22:55
support you in doing that. That was the
00:22:56
idea and that was why it was felt that
00:22:57
something like Gobeclet couldn't be
00:23:00
built until about 6,000 years ago when
00:23:02
there was widespread agriculture. But
00:23:04
that turned out not to be true. Uh it
00:23:06
was built by hunter gatherers, but
00:23:08
within a thousand years of it being
00:23:09
built, agriculture becomes present in
00:23:12
that whole area.
00:23:13
>> H origins of agriculture are definitely
00:23:16
earlier than we've than we've been
00:23:18
taught.
00:23:19
>> So it's funny because I don't know a lot
00:23:21
about the ice age, but humans survived
00:23:23
the ice age.
00:23:24
>> Oh god, yes, we we we did. It's just
00:23:26
it's just um
00:23:29
where do you want to be during an ice
00:23:30
age? That's the question.
00:23:32
>> What are my options?
00:23:34
If you were a rational being, which most
00:23:36
human beings are, you would immediately
00:23:38
exclude Northern Europe.
00:23:40
>> Absolutely no point in being in that
00:23:42
frozen, miserable wilderness.
00:23:45
>> You'd immediately exclude the northern
00:23:47
part of North America, too. No point in
00:23:50
being there. It's just horrible at that
00:23:51
time. Siberia, pretty rough. No, you'd
00:23:55
look for the tropics. You'd go you'd go
00:23:57
down close to the equator. you'd go to
00:23:59
the places that weren't affected by the
00:24:02
ice age, that were actually the best
00:24:04
real estate on Earth. That's where you'd
00:24:06
go. That's why uh if we are looking for
00:24:11
a missing episode in the human story,
00:24:13
we're wasting our time looking for it in
00:24:15
Northern Europe or North America. Uh we
00:24:18
should be looking for it in Mexico. We
00:24:21
should be looking for it in India. We
00:24:23
should be looking for it in Indonesia.
00:24:25
we should be looking for it uh around
00:24:28
Papu Nu Guinea. All of these areas that
00:24:30
were that were really great places to
00:24:32
live during the ice age. That's that's
00:24:34
the kind of place that the sort of
00:24:36
civilization I'm talking about could
00:24:37
have thrived.
00:24:38
>> What is the difference? You know, cuz on
00:24:39
here it says the earliest known humans
00:24:41
were 300,000 odd years ago.
00:24:43
>> Yeah.
00:24:44
>> What is the difference between these
00:24:45
humans 300,000 years ago and the
00:24:48
civilization you're describing 20,000
00:24:50
years ago that you believe existed?
00:24:52
Apart from what is perhaps wrongly
00:24:55
described as a slight refinement in
00:24:57
human features, natural selection
00:24:59
operating on what humans perceive as
00:25:01
beauty, I don't know. But otherwise, the
00:25:03
same
00:25:04
>> the same
00:25:04
>> the same. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's
00:25:06
not that not disputed. Nobody's saying
00:25:08
that Jebel Hood human beings were
00:25:11
somehow different from us. They're
00:25:12
anatomically modern humans.
00:25:14
>> But how did they live um versus your
00:25:16
definition of ai civilization?
00:25:19
>> They lived a simple hunter gatherer
00:25:21
life.
00:25:21
>> Okay. in small groups.
00:25:22
>> Yeah. But somehow
00:25:25
around 11,600 years ago, people started
00:25:28
accumulating
00:25:30
monuments that can only be made with
00:25:32
large groups and organized organized
00:25:34
labor. You've got to you you have to
00:25:36
have a system. You have to can't build
00:25:37
something like Gobeci without planning
00:25:40
out in advance. You got to draw it out
00:25:41
somehow. There has to be a plan. It's
00:25:43
not something you just wing. Uh so so
00:25:46
there has to there's a missing
00:25:47
background to all of that which bothers
00:25:49
me. And again, so most people think
00:25:50
civilization started what 6,000 years
00:25:53
ago.
00:25:54
>> Yes. That that would be when
00:25:56
civilizations become archaeologically
00:25:58
visible. So you have uh ancient Sumemer,
00:26:03
Mesopotamia,
00:26:05
uh which roughly 3,500 I'm going to use
00:26:09
BC because everybody's familiar with
00:26:10
that. Roughly 3,500 BC, which is 5,500
00:26:15
years ago approximately. We start seeing
00:26:18
cities being built. We start seeing the
00:26:19
beginnings of writing taking place
00:26:21
around about the same time. The same
00:26:23
thing is happening in Egypt. Maybe a
00:26:25
couple of hundred years later, but the
00:26:27
new work that's being done in Egypt is
00:26:28
pushing Egypt much closer to to Sumer
00:26:32
narrowing that that window. Effectively,
00:26:34
you can say that these two civilizations
00:26:37
become archaeologically visible at the
00:26:39
same time. And uh they're not alone
00:26:41
because on the other side of the world
00:26:43
in Peru uh there's a civilization now
00:26:46
recognized called the Karal Supoupe
00:26:48
civilization which built pyramids uh
00:26:50
which also goes back 5,500 years. Uh and
00:26:54
and this is one of the mysteries I'm I'm
00:26:56
looking at now is is why we have these
00:26:59
apparently coincidental emergence of
00:27:02
high civilizations in the same window uh
00:27:05
all around the world. Indis Valley
00:27:07
civilization roughly the same 5,000
00:27:10
years old. Yeah. We're looking at Karal
00:27:12
here I think. Yeah. Yeah. These classic
00:27:15
these the feature is these circular
00:27:18
plazas in front of them and then the
00:27:19
pyramid with a and and uh you know these
00:27:22
were not and not expected in Peru. When
00:27:25
archaeologists think of Peru they tend
00:27:27
to think of Machu Picchu the Inca
00:27:29
civilization. That's what gets all the
00:27:32
coverage.
00:27:32
>> And that's 600 years ago.
00:27:34
>> That's 600 years ago. yesterday. Whereas
00:27:37
these Kal Supoupe pyramids, Karal,
00:27:41
Asparro, Bandura,
00:27:43
Pineo, these ones are much older,
00:27:48
thousands of years older. They're
00:27:49
extremely sophisticated. They built with
00:27:51
an earthquake proof technology. They
00:27:55
instead of using blocks, they put small
00:27:57
stones in in textile bags and those
00:28:01
allow a certain amount of shifting so
00:28:03
the thing doesn't collapse in an
00:28:04
earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old
00:28:07
getting on. So again, not an
00:28:10
agricultural civilization at the at that
00:28:12
time. They're a huntergatherer
00:28:14
civilization. So So archaeologists are
00:28:16
having to confront a reversal of their
00:28:18
model at the moment. And I think there's
00:28:20
room in that reversal of the model for a
00:28:23
forgotten episode in the human story.
00:28:25
>> Tell me about this forgotten episode in
00:28:26
the human story.
00:28:28
>> Yeah, it's uh it's remembered it's
00:28:30
remembered all around the world as a
00:28:32
golden age where there was no violence,
00:28:35
no cruelty. Um where great healers and
00:28:39
sages were at work. where powers that
00:28:42
are scorned in our society today such as
00:28:46
telepathy and telekinesis which are
00:28:49
regarded as completely non-existent by
00:28:51
our scientists uh were regarded as a
00:28:54
matter of fact of life in in in this
00:28:57
ancient world. That's uh a civilization
00:29:00
that emerged out of shamanism uh and
00:29:05
made something good. But then if you
00:29:08
follow the myths further as I've done,
00:29:10
you find something odd happens,
00:29:12
you find that they've stepped away from
00:29:16
the original purity.
00:29:18
That they've become
00:29:21
a culture that begins to impose its
00:29:23
power on others around the world. And
00:29:26
that's always given as the reason for
00:29:28
the cataclysm in the myths that that we
00:29:30
angered the gods. It might have been
00:29:32
with our noise. It might have been with
00:29:33
our irreverence. We angered the gods and
00:29:36
they sent a flood. They weren't happy
00:29:39
with their creation. They wanted to
00:29:41
start again, wipe the slate clean. And
00:29:44
so there's this there's always this
00:29:45
feeling in the myths and it's and I
00:29:47
can't explain it. I don't know what what
00:29:49
it comes from, but it's always there is
00:29:52
that in some way we ourselves
00:29:56
brought this upon ourselves. Is this
00:29:58
those people not understanding the
00:29:59
forces of mother nature and trying to
00:30:02
sort of justify it as
00:30:05
>> or perhaps a deeper understanding of the
00:30:07
forces of mother nature? Maybe
00:30:09
>> perhaps the way that human beings are
00:30:10
operating in the world today
00:30:14
um should be included amongst the forces
00:30:16
of nature. We we are a geological force.
00:30:19
Uh and worse than that, we're a psychic
00:30:21
force which is full of anger and hatred
00:30:24
and suspicion and and and mutual
00:30:26
destruction. That's not going to be good
00:30:28
for nature. That that's that's going to
00:30:31
be disturbing. We're an integrated
00:30:32
system in my view. We we're not
00:30:34
separate. Human beings are part of all
00:30:36
of this and what we do affects all of
00:30:38
that. And that's what the ancient myths
00:30:40
seem to testify to.
00:30:43
So, if I may finish on that,
00:30:46
>> when I look at our civilization today, I
00:30:48
I don't want to go off on a rant, but
00:30:50
when I look at our civilization today, I
00:30:52
see a civilization that ticks all the
00:30:54
mythological boxes. every single one for
00:30:57
the next lost civilization. And I
00:30:59
envision a situation
00:31:01
10 or 15,000 years from now when we will
00:31:04
be a myth,
00:31:06
a fantasy that our our ancestors
00:31:10
actually could speak to one another on
00:31:12
opposite sides of the planet, that our
00:31:13
ancestors they could fly to the moon, uh
00:31:16
you know, they could go to the depths of
00:31:18
the ocean. The archaeologists of that
00:31:19
time will say complete fantasy, just
00:31:21
made up, never happened, but it did.
00:31:25
We're that lost civilization
00:31:28
and we don't need a comet and we don't
00:31:30
need solar activity because if we're so
00:31:33
psychically messed up as a species,
00:31:35
we'll probably end up doing it to
00:31:36
ourselves.
00:31:39
That's what nuclear weapons are about.
00:31:41
mass species suicide
00:31:46
and the mental processes that drive that
00:31:50
very dangerous very effective of the
00:31:53
world we live in.
00:31:56
Hatred is a psychic force and uh the way
00:32:00
it's being generated around the world at
00:32:02
the moment and mobilized and focused is
00:32:05
um it's got to be bad for all of us
00:32:08
>> especially when we have such powers to
00:32:09
self-destruct. It's terrible. This This
00:32:12
is what drives me nuts is is looking at
00:32:14
the low consciousness level of the
00:32:17
so-called leaders on this planet. When I
00:32:19
look around the whole bunch of them,
00:32:22
I just see very low consciousness
00:32:24
individuals who define everything in
00:32:27
material terms. uh who who are who are
00:32:31
who are focused on
00:32:33
this also gets me into trouble but I
00:32:36
I think nationalism is something that
00:32:38
humanity needs to grow out of we need to
00:32:41
grow out of nationalism it's just an
00:32:43
extension of tribalism we need to grow
00:32:46
out of it soon and let me be clear I am
00:32:49
not talking about world government I
00:32:53
don't want anything like I don't want
00:32:54
any government I'm an anarchist
00:32:55
basically and that's what anarchy means
00:32:57
it means without government I don't not
00:32:59
any government at all. But we have to
00:33:02
get past this notion that by accident I
00:33:05
was born with this particular skin. You
00:33:07
know, the notion is that this these
00:33:09
accidents of birth define us. That we
00:33:12
must somehow massively respect and love
00:33:15
people who look like us and and and kind
00:33:17
of hate and fear people who don't look
00:33:19
like us. We have to get past that. We
00:33:21
have to get past that as a species. It's
00:33:23
really important. All human beings
00:33:25
everywhere all the same fundamentally.
00:33:27
Of course, we're vastly diverse. We have
00:33:29
we have incredible different gifts. I
00:33:33
value and appreciate the differences in
00:33:35
different cultures all around the world.
00:33:37
This is wonderful. But it doesn't have
00:33:39
to come with and we are better than you.
00:33:41
Uh and we're going to kill you because
00:33:42
you don't share our ideas. This is
00:33:45
insane. It's crazy. We're not a mature
00:33:48
species. We're we're a childish species.
00:33:49
And leading our species are leaders who
00:33:53
have the mentality of um deranged
00:33:57
teenagers.
00:33:58
>> We elected them.
00:33:59
>> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which
00:34:02
shows how easy it is to manipulate
00:34:05
uh the narrative in the world today.
00:34:08
Today, who wins in elections isn't the
00:34:11
best person, isn't the good person,
00:34:12
isn't the person who's going to do good,
00:34:14
it's the best communicator who wins. So
00:34:16
this um ancient civilization that we
00:34:18
could have theoretically forgotten, you
00:34:19
were somewhat implying that maybe they
00:34:21
were right that their own actions
00:34:24
>> caused the
00:34:26
great flood as they say they they talk
00:34:28
about in mythology.
00:34:29
>> I floated that notion. Yeah. Yeah. They
00:34:31
might they might have been, but it's
00:34:33
enough to say that that's what they
00:34:34
believed because that's what all the
00:34:36
myths say. The Noah story is prefigured
00:34:39
in ancient Sumer um with um an almost
00:34:43
identical flood myth. The gods are
00:34:45
angry. A great flood is going to be
00:34:47
sent. The intention is to wipe out
00:34:50
humanity.
00:34:51
But this this god who's called Enki
00:34:55
says to Atraasis, "I'm going to save
00:34:56
you. Build a boat. Build it now. A big
00:34:59
one. Put into it the seeds of all things
00:35:02
that you will need. Bring each animal of
00:35:04
every kind into your boat." This is this
00:35:06
is a kind of survival arc which is
00:35:09
exactly the same as Noah. Noah's arc is
00:35:11
just copied on that. It's just borrowed
00:35:12
from that. And to people that say,
00:35:14
"Well, these are just stories. These are
00:35:15
fictions that someone wrote and then
00:35:17
they pass them down and there's no truth
00:35:18
in these things at all."
00:35:19
>> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I
00:35:21
just happen to think they're not. And
00:35:23
and my job has been to make that case. I
00:35:26
do not claim that I have proved there
00:35:29
was a lost civilization. Any
00:35:30
archaeologist who says Hanok claims he's
00:35:32
proved that is lying. I don't claim
00:35:34
that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified.
00:35:36
And I'm going to I'm going to complete
00:35:39
that journey as long as I can. I'm going
00:35:41
to carry on investigating and looking
00:35:43
into all aspects of this because that's
00:35:45
what I'm here to do.
00:35:47
>> And that lost civilization, you said
00:35:48
they were seabbearing potentially.
00:35:50
>> Seafaring. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:51
>> Which means they had boats.
00:35:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. So we know, for example,
00:35:55
that anatomically modern uh human beings
00:35:58
reached Australia 60,000 years ago. That
00:36:00
those involve significant sea journeys.
00:36:02
They reached Cyprus in the Mediterranean
00:36:05
14,000 years ago. Again, they involve
00:36:07
sea journeys, not engine boats, not
00:36:10
metal boats. You can do it on quite
00:36:11
simple craft. Look at look at the
00:36:13
Polynesians. Look at the vast distances
00:36:15
that they explored on outrigger canoes.
00:36:18
Uh so yeah, boats, but not our kind of
00:36:21
boats.
00:36:23
>> H I just don't understand how if they're
00:36:25
traveling the seas and boats, how
00:36:27
they're they aren't classified as a
00:36:29
civilization. Well, because according to
00:36:33
the mainstream model which I am trying
00:36:35
to provide an alternative to, they never
00:36:38
existed. There was no such people. They
00:36:40
never did these things. The maps are
00:36:42
just coincidences, irrelevance, just
00:36:44
odd. They put Antarctica, they put a a
00:36:46
land mass in Antarctica because they
00:36:48
felt it would balance the world. That's
00:36:50
the theory that's given. And it's just
00:36:52
to me it's not it's not satisfactory.
00:36:55
Doesn't it just doesn't add up. These
00:36:57
things need to be explained. And it's
00:36:59
why it's why in every society which
00:37:02
wishes to make progress, uh, mavericks,
00:37:06
people who go against the grain, no
00:37:08
matter
00:37:11
how much they have to take, are
00:37:13
needed. They're needed in our society to
00:37:16
provide a balance to this overwhelming
00:37:19
mass that science now occupies. Science
00:37:22
has now come to occupy the space that
00:37:24
religion occupied in many people's
00:37:26
minds. And again, I need to emphasize
00:37:28
I'm not against science. Science.
00:37:30
Science is about to save my life. I have
00:37:32
major heart surgery coming up in two
00:37:34
weeks time. I'm not against it at all,
00:37:35
but I think it should be one weapon in
00:37:37
our armory, not the only weapon.
00:37:40
>> There should be a button just down below
00:37:42
here. And if it says subscribed, you're
00:37:44
already subscribed. If it says
00:37:46
subscriber, that means you're not yet.
00:37:48
And if you're not subscribed, please
00:37:49
could you do us a favor and hit that
00:37:50
button? It helps the show more than you
00:37:52
know. And according to the algorithm,
00:37:54
you're someone that watches our show,
00:37:55
but you haven't yet hit that button.
00:37:56
Thank you so much.
00:37:58
>> One of the um things I was super curious
00:38:00
about, cuz I was actually there last
00:38:01
last week, is this place,
00:38:04
>> Giza.
00:38:05
>> Pyramids of Giza.
00:38:06
>> The great pyramid of Giza.
00:38:09
Here we look at it. Attributed to the
00:38:11
pharaoh Kufu,
00:38:14
who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty.
00:38:17
>> What is the mystery here? So again,
00:38:19
pyramids are this big stack of like
00:38:21
concrete blocks in Egypt.
00:38:23
>> What is the Why is it so mysterious?
00:38:25
>> Well, first of all, they're not
00:38:26
concrete. They're they're human
00:38:28
limestone um and granite. Uh first of
00:38:31
all, it's mysterious for the sheer size
00:38:34
of it. Look.
00:38:36
So you got roughly 750 ft along each
00:38:39
side. Okay? And they vary in length by
00:38:45
only fractions of an inch. they've got
00:38:47
it just about spot-on exact on the side
00:38:50
length. And you want that in a pyramid
00:38:52
because if you get it wrong, you're
00:38:54
going to end up with a corkcrew rather
00:38:56
than a pyramid. If you get it wrong at
00:38:58
the bottom, those errors are going to
00:38:59
magnify and they're going to get worse
00:39:01
and worse and it's not going to be a
00:39:02
pyramid at the end of the day. Secondly,
00:39:06
weight calculated at about 6 million
00:39:08
tons,
00:39:11
more than 2 million individual blocks of
00:39:13
stone. I've climbed the pyramid five
00:39:16
times. Once I climbed it, when there was
00:39:18
an event taking place on the Giza
00:39:20
Plateau, picnics basically, and and a
00:39:23
lot of Kyne just decided to climb the
00:39:26
pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four
00:39:28
other times without other people there,
00:39:29
but this time there were hundreds of
00:39:31
people on the pyramid. That's when I
00:39:34
realized how difficult this thing is to
00:39:36
make because the biggest danger was the
00:39:38
other people. Once you're up two or
00:39:40
three courses, you fall, you're dead.
00:39:42
It's uh it's a 52° slope. there's no way
00:39:46
you're going to stop. You're going to
00:39:47
come down and still every year people
00:39:49
die on the Great Pyramid. That's why
00:39:50
they've made it illegal to climb it now.
00:39:53
So, there's that. Then there's the
00:39:55
almost perfect alignment of the Great
00:39:57
Pyramid to true north. Not to compass
00:40:00
North, which is about 10 or 11 degrees
00:40:02
off true north, but to astronomical
00:40:04
north, real north. The Great Pyramid is
00:40:06
aligned within 3 60ths of a single
00:40:10
degree. I put it that way because
00:40:11
degrees are divided into 60 minutes. So,
00:40:13
3 minutes of arc. The Great Pyramid is
00:40:15
aligned to that level of precision,
00:40:17
360ths of a single degree to true north.
00:40:20
And they've done that on a 6 million ton
00:40:22
monument which is 481 ft high if you
00:40:25
take account of its original height
00:40:27
which has a 52° slope which is filled
00:40:29
with internal corridors and spaces,
00:40:32
Grand Gallery, the ascending, the
00:40:34
descending corridors. All of this is
00:40:38
extremely difficult to do. It is it's
00:40:40
not impossible to do because we see it
00:40:42
there. Uh, could our civilization do it?
00:40:45
Yeah, I think we could. Uh, but would we
00:40:48
do it? No, I don't think we would. Uh,
00:40:50
the motive wouldn't be there. People
00:40:51
say, "What the why? I mean, why do you
00:40:53
want to align it perfectly to true
00:40:55
north? It's enough to ask me to build a
00:40:57
6 million ton monument, but you want it
00:40:59
aligned to true north as well. Come on.
00:41:01
I mean, that's a really difficult
00:41:03
specification. We'd find that hard." um
00:41:06
a kind of artistry
00:41:09
was put to work on the Great Pyramid as
00:41:11
well as skill. Let's get rid of any
00:41:13
notion that slaves were involved. They
00:41:15
were not there. There wasn't slavery in
00:41:18
the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a
00:41:19
work of love from the first to the last
00:41:22
stone. It's a work done with great skill
00:41:24
and care. It's a beautiful and
00:41:27
extraordinary thing both inside and out.
00:41:31
It sits almost exactly on latitude 30
00:41:34
which is 1/ird of the way between the
00:41:36
north pole and the equator. And uh it
00:41:40
incorporates the dimensions of the earth
00:41:42
on a scale of 1 to 43,200
00:41:46
in its own dimensions. So if you take
00:41:48
the height of the great pyramid and
00:41:49
multiply it by 43,200.
00:41:52
I'll explain why that number matters.
00:41:54
Multiply it by that number, you get the
00:41:56
polar radius of the earth. Measure the
00:41:58
base perimeter of the Great Pyramid.
00:42:00
multiply it by the same factor, 43,200,
00:42:03
and you get the equatorial circumference
00:42:05
of the Earth.
00:42:07
Archaeologists know this. They say it's
00:42:10
a coincidence, total coincidence, just
00:42:12
by chance. However, I I could agree with
00:42:15
them actually if the scale was not 1 to
00:42:18
43,200.
00:42:20
But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200
00:42:23
changes everything because that belongs
00:42:25
to a sequence of numbers that is found
00:42:27
in ancient mythology all around the
00:42:30
world. And those numbers are all
00:42:32
multiples of the number 72. And I
00:42:35
mentioned at the beginning of our
00:42:36
discussion the book by the great
00:42:39
historian of science Giorgio de
00:42:41
Santiliano professor of the history of
00:42:43
science at MIT. He was the first to
00:42:46
identify that these numbers and the
00:42:48
imagery that go with them derive from a
00:42:51
phenomenon called the precession of the
00:42:53
equinoxes. I better explain that a
00:42:55
little bit. The procession of the
00:42:57
equinoxes.
00:42:58
Everybody's heard the song We live in
00:43:00
the dawning of the age of Aquarius. I'm
00:43:03
sure you've heard that.
00:43:05
>> Uh no comment.
00:43:07
>> We live in the dawning of the age of
00:43:08
Aquarius.
00:43:10
That's astrology at the moment. And for
00:43:13
the last 2,000 years on the spring
00:43:15
equinox, the sun has risen against the
00:43:18
background of the constellation of
00:43:20
Pisces.
00:43:21
That's the age of Pisces. We live in the
00:43:24
age of Pisces. It's not an accident that
00:43:26
the early Christians used the fish as
00:43:28
their symbol.
00:43:30
>> The next constellation on the zodiac
00:43:32
when you go backwards around it is
00:43:34
Aquarius.
00:43:36
And the procession is actually caused by
00:43:38
a wobble on the axis of the Earth. I'm
00:43:41
going to pretend that this is the Earth.
00:43:42
>> Okay.
00:43:43
>> And instead of just doing this, while
00:43:46
it's doing that, it's also doing that.
00:43:48
It's wobbling.
00:43:50
>> And that affects the rising time and
00:43:52
season at which particular stars rise.
00:43:53
It affects two things noticeably. One
00:43:56
thing it affects is the pole star. At
00:43:58
the moment, the pole star is Polaris.
00:44:00
The pole star, this is astron
00:44:02
astronomical north. It's the star
00:44:04
towards which the extended north pole
00:44:06
pole of the earth points most directly.
00:44:09
>> Okay. At present, it's Polaris. It
00:44:11
hasn't always been Polaris. 4,000 years
00:44:13
ago, it was Thuban in the constellation
00:44:14
of Draco. That's because the Earth's
00:44:16
axis is doing this. At the horizon, it
00:44:19
does the same thing with the zodiacal
00:44:21
constellations. We shift gradually
00:44:23
through each constellation lasts about
00:44:25
2,000 years in each constellation. The
00:44:27
great year where we come back to square
00:44:29
one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920
00:44:33
years is the convention that's applied
00:44:35
in ancient mythology. So, the fact that
00:44:38
one of those numbers is the scale used
00:44:41
to encode the dimensions of the earth in
00:44:43
the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental
00:44:45
in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If
00:44:47
it was 1 to 57,000,
00:44:49
I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it
00:44:51
was 1 to 21,000,
00:44:53
I wouldn't pay attention to it. But 1 to
00:44:54
43,200,
00:44:56
that's the number of syllables in the
00:44:58
Rigveda, for example. You find this all
00:45:00
over the world, everywhere.
00:45:02
>> So, what does that imply or suggest? Uh
00:45:04
what it suggests is that incorporated
00:45:07
into the building of the great pyramid
00:45:09
was knowledge that was not supposed to
00:45:11
have existed 4 and a half thousand years
00:45:13
ago. In fact, knowledge that was not
00:45:15
supposed to have existed until 2,000
00:45:17
years ago. Hypocus of Alexandria is the
00:45:19
Greek who was supposed to have
00:45:20
discovered procession. Uh but the
00:45:23
incorporation of procession in the
00:45:26
structure of the Great Pyramid says to
00:45:28
me that that knowledge is much older. It
00:45:30
was already old then. I really want to
00:45:32
make sure I'm clear on this procession
00:45:33
thing because I'm not not super clear.
00:45:35
Yeah. Um, what does it what does it mean
00:45:37
procession? It means that there's a
00:45:39
certain star pattern that we see once
00:45:41
every 20,000 years.
00:45:42
>> It it it it precesses. It goes
00:45:44
backwards. The direction through the
00:45:46
through the zodiac is is forwards in the
00:45:49
normal year, but in the long term year
00:45:52
because of the wobble, the sun rise
00:45:54
against the background of the spring
00:45:56
equinox. The sun rises perfectly due
00:45:58
east. It always does. It also rises
00:46:00
perfectly due east on the autumn
00:46:01
equinox. On the summer solstice, the sun
00:46:04
rises in the northern hemisphere north
00:46:05
of east and south of east on the on the
00:46:08
winter solstice. The key moment for the
00:46:11
ancients was the equinox. It was
00:46:13
considered to define the character of
00:46:15
the year. And what defined it was the
00:46:18
constellation that housed the sun that
00:46:20
was the house of the sun.
00:46:22
>> Okay. So the star pattern.
00:46:23
>> Yeah. The a zodiacal constellation.
00:46:27
These the constellations of the zodiac
00:46:29
lie along what is called the ecliptic,
00:46:31
the path of the sun.
00:46:33
>> Okay.
00:46:33
>> Okay. The earth, the moon, we're all on
00:46:35
the ecliptic within a few degrees above
00:46:38
or below it. And and therefore, these
00:46:41
are constellations that we can see the
00:46:43
sun against the background of.
00:46:45
>> Constellation like Orion, you'll never
00:46:47
see the sun against the background of
00:46:48
it. You're only going to see it against
00:46:50
the background of the zodiacal
00:46:51
constellations that lie on the so-called
00:46:54
path of the sun. And those are the 12
00:46:56
familiar constellations of the zodiac.
00:46:58
And as I say, we're living in the age of
00:47:01
Pisces right now. And uh according to
00:47:04
ancient astrology, we're going to be
00:47:06
making the transition into Aquarius
00:47:08
within about the next 150 years. The sun
00:47:10
will have left Pisces and will be rising
00:47:13
in Aquarius. So actually, the song is
00:47:15
true. We do live in the dawning of the
00:47:16
age of Aquarius. The only question is
00:47:18
whether that means anything or not. The
00:47:20
ancients thought it did. Uh we think it
00:47:22
doesn't. Uh, I'm not sure who's right.
00:47:25
>> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you
00:47:27
to check if I'm I've got it correctly,
00:47:28
but I suspect I might not have. Within
00:47:30
the design of the pyramids, there was a
00:47:33
number which you said was 43,000.
00:47:35
>> It's a scale.
00:47:36
>> It's a scale.
00:47:37
>> It's a scale that's used for the height
00:47:39
and the base perimeter of the Great
00:47:41
Pyramid. Base perimeter, measure, four
00:47:43
sides, add it together. Height, the
00:47:46
actual height of the Great Pyramid. It's
00:47:47
true original height. It lost about 30
00:47:49
feet in an earthquake in 131. But you
00:47:52
can calculate the true original height
00:47:54
from the angle of the of the sides.
00:47:57
>> Ah yeah right.
00:47:58
>> Um and when you take that height
00:48:01
>> and multiply it by 43,200
00:48:05
you get the polar radius of the earth.
00:48:07
>> You get the radius of the earth.
00:48:09
>> That's from the center of the earth to
00:48:11
the edge of the earth. It's not the
00:48:12
diameter of the earth. The diameter is
00:48:14
twice the radius.
00:48:15
>> It's the it's the polar radius. Okay.
00:48:18
>> A key dimension of the earth. measure
00:48:20
the sides and you get on the same scale
00:48:24
1 to 43,200, you get the equatorial
00:48:27
circumference of the Earth, what the
00:48:28
Earth measures at its equator, its
00:48:30
largest its largest measure. Um, and and
00:48:34
that uh is either a coincidence or it's
00:48:37
deliberate. And because of the number
00:48:39
chosen and because that number is all
00:48:42
over ancient mythology, I think it's
00:48:44
deliberate.
00:48:45
>> That means that they must have known the
00:48:47
circumference of the Earth.
00:48:48
>> Yeah. It means they they knew the
00:48:50
circumference of the earth and it means
00:48:51
they chose a place to put the great
00:48:54
pyramid which also was relevant. Uh this
00:48:57
isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37. This
00:49:01
is just a fraction off latitude 30°
00:49:04
north. So therefore 1/3 of the way
00:49:07
between the equator and the north pole.
00:49:08
It's a it's a re it's a significant
00:49:10
relevant. What it's telling us is this
00:49:13
monument speaks to the earth. This
00:49:14
monument is locked into the true north
00:49:17
of this planet. This monument gives you
00:49:19
the dimensions of this planet. This
00:49:22
monument is speaking to this planet.
00:49:25
>> How could they possibly know the
00:49:26
circumference of the Earth 4,500 years
00:49:28
ago?
00:49:28
>> Because they're a lost civilization
00:49:30
because the the knowledge comes down
00:49:32
from a former time. I don't think the
00:49:34
Egyptians knew it. I think it came down
00:49:36
I think it was inherited knowledge from
00:49:40
what I'm here to advocate for and to
00:49:43
speak for the possibility of a major
00:49:45
forgotten episode in the human story
00:49:47
>> which could be 20,000 years ago and
00:49:50
they've passed it down in in myths and
00:49:53
stories.
00:49:53
>> Yes, passed it down but not only in
00:49:55
myths and stories. Um, this is something
00:49:58
else that I will I'll just hint at here
00:50:01
that I intend to get into in the new
00:50:03
book is that there appear to have been
00:50:06
organizations
00:50:07
in each of these civilizations. In
00:50:10
Egypt, they were called the followers of
00:50:12
Horus.
00:50:15
In Sumer, they were called the Akcaloo.
00:50:19
They served as advisers to kings. They
00:50:21
were called sages. There's a reference
00:50:23
to them. Many cultures refer to them as
00:50:25
the seven sages. They provided advice to
00:50:28
kings in the historical period. And I'm
00:50:31
wondering whether we're looking at some
00:50:33
kind of longived organization here which
00:50:36
is carrying down information looking for
00:50:39
the right time to switch the engine of
00:50:42
civilization back on again. I know it's
00:50:45
sounds extreme but uh that's what I do.
00:50:48
I explore I explore extreme ideas and
00:50:50
see whether and see whether they fit or
00:50:53
not. And I'm beginning to find this idea
00:50:55
does fit it. It fit it fits with a whole
00:50:57
range of information which will be in
00:50:59
the next book.
00:51:00
>> A sage that reports to the king. And
00:51:02
>> it not only reports to the king but
00:51:04
advises the king
00:51:05
>> on what?
00:51:06
>> On everything on what to do. Oh okay.
00:51:08
>> Yeah.
00:51:09
>> The abcalu in the ancient traditions of
00:51:12
Sumer they existed in the pre-deluvian
00:51:15
world. They were there in the world
00:51:16
before the flood. Then there and and
00:51:19
they taught mankind knowledge then. But
00:51:24
the flood came, the cataclysm came, they
00:51:26
were wiped out. But some of the abcalu
00:51:28
survived and they appear after the flood
00:51:31
as advisers to the earliest historical
00:51:33
kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering
00:51:36
whether you know there are there are
00:51:40
religions in the world which have
00:51:42
maintained traditions and maintained
00:51:45
offices, priesthoods for example for
00:51:47
thousands of years. I don't see why the
00:51:49
same shouldn't be true here. Why there
00:51:50
shouldn't have been some driving motive
00:51:53
at the end of the ice age to preserve in
00:51:55
a way what they knew and to find
00:51:56
mechanisms to pass it down. One
00:51:58
mechanism is to embed it in wonderful
00:52:00
stories that will go on being told. And
00:52:02
another mechanism is to set up some kind
00:52:05
of secret society which is operating
00:52:07
behind the scenes to guide and steer
00:52:10
society. I'm not going to present the
00:52:12
evidence for that here, but it's an
00:52:13
avenue I'm pursuing. If I if I don't
00:52:16
find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll
00:52:18
abandon it. But at the moment, it's
00:52:19
looking very interesting.
00:52:21
>> Then where did all this information
00:52:23
go? You know, because if the people who
00:52:26
built the pyramids of Giza had this
00:52:27
information, where did the sages go and
00:52:29
with their information?
00:52:30
>> Yeah, it's very it's very odd actually
00:52:32
what what happens after Giza is
00:52:34
fascinating. Um because once you once
00:52:38
you leave the fourth dynasty period, get
00:52:41
into the fifth and sixth dynasties,
00:52:43
pyramid building collapses. The stuff
00:52:46
they're making in the fifth dynasty,
00:52:47
like the pyramid of Unas, fifth dynasty
00:52:50
pyramid in Sakara.
00:52:54
Inside it's stunningly beautiful.
00:52:57
Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the
00:52:59
ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the
00:53:02
side. It's magical. But outside it's
00:53:05
just a pile of dust. It's a mess. It
00:53:07
doesn't even you could hardly recognize
00:53:09
it as a pyramid. And it's true of all
00:53:10
those. So this is odd in itself.
00:53:14
Normally when human cultures create
00:53:17
something they continue to work on it
00:53:20
and it tends to get better and better
00:53:21
not worse and worse. So it's odd what
00:53:24
happens to the pyramids that they get
00:53:25
worse and worse in Egypt. It's like job
00:53:27
done that move on and that's there and
00:53:31
that's going to speak to human beings
00:53:34
not just for a generation, not just for
00:53:37
a hundred years. It's going to be there
00:53:38
speaking to us for thousands of years.
00:53:40
It's going to be sitting there on the
00:53:41
Giza plateau like an enormous question
00:53:43
mark calling towards it those who don't
00:53:46
see it just as a heap of stones but
00:53:48
actually see it as something wonderful
00:53:50
and magnificent and mysterious calling
00:53:52
them to and saying learn about me figure
00:53:55
me out and in the process of learning
00:53:57
about me you're going to learn so much
00:53:59
else well in learning about the great
00:54:01
pyramid I find that it is encoded with
00:54:03
astronomical information that should not
00:54:05
be there if the current model of the
00:54:08
history of science is correct. I think
00:54:11
the current model of the history of
00:54:12
science is wrong. I think this
00:54:14
information was known much earlier and
00:54:15
it's encoded in the great pyramid. Once
00:54:17
I know that, then I have to start
00:54:19
thinking what else does that mean? And
00:54:21
what else it means to me is a big
00:54:24
forgotten episode in our story
00:54:26
>> again. Why? Because they had
00:54:29
intelligence that they're not credited
00:54:30
with having at that time.
00:54:31
>> Yes. Because it's there. Because there
00:54:34
should not be a monument of this scale
00:54:38
which incorporates into it information
00:54:40
that was not supposed to be available to
00:54:42
human beings for another 2 and a half
00:54:43
thousand years.
00:54:45
>> So they must have got it from somewhere.
00:54:46
>> Yes, they must have got it from
00:54:47
somewhere. And and uh the fact that it's
00:54:50
there is is just a fact. All that's left
00:54:53
for us to say is either it's a
00:54:56
coincidence, complete coincidence, or
00:55:00
it's the result of a deliberate
00:55:02
decision. And if it's the result of a
00:55:04
deliberate decision, that weighs much
00:55:06
more towards a deliberate decision
00:55:08
because of the scale chosen because the
00:55:10
scale is part of a system that is found
00:55:13
all over the ancient world. It's not a
00:55:15
random number. It's a very specific
00:55:17
number. uh and it's a number that is
00:55:19
derived from a motion of the earth
00:55:21
itself from the precession of the
00:55:23
earth's axis. It is derived from that.
00:55:25
So I'm situated at a significant
00:55:28
latitude. I'm oriented to true north and
00:55:31
I incorporate the measurements of your
00:55:34
planet on a scale derived from your
00:55:37
planet itself. That's what the Great
00:55:38
Pyramid is saying to us. And it's saying
00:55:40
figure that out.
00:55:42
>> Do you think there's something
00:55:43
underneath it?
00:55:44
>> Oh, there's definitely something
00:55:45
underneath it. Because we think of it as
00:55:47
a sort of like building with the with
00:55:48
tunnels inside it. But
00:55:49
>> yeah, when you go into the great pyramid
00:55:51
now, you go in through what is what is
00:55:54
called the robber's tunnel or Mammoon's
00:55:57
hole. The Khalifa Mammoon had a notion
00:56:00
that there would be a entrance to the
00:56:02
Great Pyramid in its northern face.
00:56:05
Other pyramids had been found with
00:56:06
entrances in their northern face, but at
00:56:08
that time the Great Pyramid was
00:56:10
completely covered with perfectly smooth
00:56:12
limestone facing stones and nobody could
00:56:14
see the entrance. They came off later in
00:56:16
that earthquake in 13001, but when he
00:56:18
broke in in the 9th century, they didn't
00:56:21
know where the door was. Apparently,
00:56:23
there was a place you could almost
00:56:25
literally press a switch and open that
00:56:27
door, but they couldn't find it. So,
00:56:29
they broke in with sledgehammers and
00:56:30
chisels and they smashed their way into
00:56:32
the Great Pyramid. And then at a certain
00:56:35
moment when they're about 60 or 70 ft
00:56:37
into the Great Pyramid, they hear
00:56:39
something dropping in a hollow space. a
00:56:41
big something has fallen in a hollow
00:56:44
space. They head towards that sound and
00:56:47
then they enter the original corridor
00:56:49
system of the Great Pyramid. And that's
00:56:51
the way we all go in now. We go in
00:56:52
through that robber's tunnel and then we
00:56:54
go up the Grand Gallery, but we can also
00:56:56
go down. We can go down to the
00:56:58
subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft
00:57:01
vertically beneath the base of the Great
00:57:03
Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually
00:57:06
think that was the original sacred site
00:57:08
on that monument is that subterranean
00:57:10
chamber. I don't advise anybody with
00:57:13
claustrophobia to go down there. You're
00:57:16
very conscious that you got a 6 million
00:57:17
ton monument sitting right above you and
00:57:19
it place that has earthquakes. Um it can
00:57:22
be quite oppressive, but that's just a
00:57:25
hint of what's under the Giza plateau.
00:57:27
That's just that's an accessible bit. Uh
00:57:29
but it's it's it's already obvious that
00:57:32
there that there is so much more. Some
00:57:34
of it's being picked up with ground
00:57:35
penetrating radar. And I'll take this
00:57:37
opportunity to say that the hysterical
00:57:40
reaction of mainstream scientists to the
00:57:44
announcement by Filippo Beyond uh
00:57:47
>> what is he saying?
00:57:48
>> He's saying that there are enormous
00:57:50
structures under the second pyramid that
00:57:51
not the great pyramid under the pyramid
00:57:53
attributed to Kafrey Kufu's successor.
00:57:56
the the structures that go hundreds of
00:57:59
feet deep under there, structures that
00:58:01
involve spiral
00:58:04
kind of stairways. The reaction has been
00:58:07
overwhelmingly dismissing this.
00:58:09
Archaeologists have not they won't look
00:58:10
further. They say it's impossible and
00:58:13
they won't look at it. And I think
00:58:14
that's shameful for people who imagine
00:58:16
they're scientists. They should be
00:58:18
looking further. I'd like to see the
00:58:20
technology trial in Turkey. There are
00:58:21
underground cities in Turkey, Kaimaki,
00:58:24
for example. we know every room in those
00:58:27
underground cities. Run this technology
00:58:29
on them. If they accurately reproduce
00:58:32
what we already know is there, then we
00:58:33
can be pretty sure they're accurately
00:58:35
reproducing what's under the Giza
00:58:36
pyramids. We need to do a lot more work
00:58:38
before dismissing this. So, I'm I remain
00:58:40
open to the notion that a huge
00:58:43
underworld awaits discovery under Giza.
00:58:46
And the ancient Egyptians themselves
00:58:47
felt that way. They felt that Giza, the
00:58:49
ancient name for it was Rosttow. It was
00:58:51
an entrance to the underworld. They saw
00:58:53
it as an entrance to the afterlife
00:58:55
realm. It makes sense that there would
00:58:57
be much much underground structures
00:58:59
there.
00:58:59
>> And you've been alone in the pyramids.
00:59:01
>> Being with large groups in the pyramid
00:59:03
is difficult in the sense that the
00:59:05
pyramid to me feels like a personality.
00:59:07
When I'm in there with a large group, I
00:59:09
I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It it
00:59:12
it's like it doesn't want to speak to
00:59:13
you anymore. It's the place becomes a
00:59:15
dead space. But but if you can be in
00:59:18
there with a very small group or be
00:59:19
there alone
00:59:21
and just be still,
00:59:24
let the silence descend. Sit in that
00:59:27
silence in the very low lighting that's
00:59:29
in there.
00:59:31
Just pause and
00:59:35
remind yourself that you're in the last
00:59:36
surviving wonder of the ancient world
00:59:38
and it's an incredible privilege to be
00:59:40
there.
00:59:42
And just let it speak to you. And it
00:59:44
does. This is of course my critics will
00:59:46
say another proof that Hanok's a
00:59:48
lunatic. Uh but uh I'm just telling you
00:59:51
what what what what happens to me. It's
00:59:53
a I I think it's a monument that
00:59:55
communicates.
00:59:56
>> What did it say to you?
00:59:58
>> It said to me go further
01:00:01
very much so. I I I I feel
01:00:06
in a weird way validated by the Great
01:00:09
Pyramid. I think it's um not only me,
01:00:13
others as well who've devoted big chunks
01:00:16
of their lives to the great pyramid like
01:00:18
Robert Baval who is a great man by the
01:00:21
way. The Orion correlation, the
01:00:24
recognition that the three pyramids on
01:00:25
the ground are laid out in the pattern
01:00:26
of the belt stars of the constellation
01:00:28
of Orion makes radical and important
01:00:30
changes to our understanding of ancient
01:00:32
Egypt. Again, that's another thing
01:00:33
that's been leapt upon by the
01:00:35
archaeological mafia, uh, because they
01:00:37
want to destroy every new idea, uh,
01:00:40
rather than spend a bit of time thinking
01:00:41
about it.
01:00:43
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01:02:45
If what you're saying is true around
01:02:47
the, you know, the first civilizations
01:02:50
being 20 plus thousand years ago, what
01:02:53
does that mean for us, for our lives?
01:02:57
>> Oh, it's really important meaning for us
01:02:59
because because it will finally remind
01:03:02
us and tell us once and for all that
01:03:03
we're not what it's all about.
01:03:06
>> It's not all about us. The whole human
01:03:08
story is not about us. It's not
01:03:10
inevitable that it comes to this and
01:03:12
that we are temporary like every other
01:03:14
civilization. We're so filled with
01:03:17
arrogance and pride right now in our
01:03:19
technological achievements, our great
01:03:21
abilities, our great powers
01:03:24
and uh the arrogance that comes with
01:03:26
that. The Greeks used to call that
01:03:28
hubris. It's ultimately ends in nemesis.
01:03:32
Ultimately brings you down. Arrogance
01:03:35
arrogance is not a good thing. It's not
01:03:37
a good thing in an individual and it's a
01:03:39
terrible thing in a civilization.
01:03:41
>> It also means that a lot of the things
01:03:43
that we've dismissed as you know
01:03:45
conspiracy or you know hocus pocus
01:03:48
whatever might not be. I mean you talk a
01:03:51
lot about like astrology and stuff like
01:03:52
that and
01:03:53
>> yeah I think we should keep open to to
01:03:56
systems that the ancients used which
01:03:58
we've dismissed like
01:04:00
>> which might be very astrology is one of
01:04:02
them. What does astrology ultimately
01:04:04
say? It it ultimately says that
01:04:07
we these beings these humans aren't
01:04:10
isolated but are connected to the
01:04:13
universe and are affected by everything
01:04:15
that happens in the universe and it's
01:04:17
and it's recognizing that there may be
01:04:18
patterns in that and instead of instead
01:04:21
of just rubbishing that or doing a few
01:04:24
investigations I think it may be worth
01:04:26
looking further into that worth looking
01:04:28
further into telepathy too my friend
01:04:30
Rbert Sheldrich a serious scientist one
01:04:32
of the very few who's doing serious
01:04:34
scientist ific work on
01:04:37
issues like telepathy and like
01:04:39
telekinesis, being able to move things
01:04:41
with your mind. Mainstream scientists,
01:04:43
most of them will just laugh at that.
01:04:45
Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away. You're
01:04:47
a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to
01:04:50
look into those things? It's really
01:04:51
interesting and it's really worth
01:04:53
investigating. We re should realize that
01:04:56
we have a heritage of hundreds of
01:04:58
thousands of years and I believe it's
01:05:00
even older than 315,000 years. We do not
01:05:04
have a heritage of a hundred years,
01:05:06
which is the heritage of modern science.
01:05:08
Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put
01:05:10
modern science even back to the Greeks
01:05:13
in a way. But it doesn't become what we
01:05:15
would recognize as science until the
01:05:18
19th century really. So, it's a very
01:05:20
young thing on if you take the human
01:05:23
being as the as the heart of this and
01:05:26
and and you were to find a little pimple
01:05:28
on the nose of that human being, that
01:05:30
would be science. It's a pimple on the
01:05:33
nose of hundreds of thousands of years
01:05:35
of human experience. Why should we be so
01:05:38
arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of
01:05:41
thousands of years of human experience
01:05:42
in the favor of 150 years maximum of
01:05:45
so-called science?
01:05:47
>> I mean, one of the interesting things is
01:05:49
I actually did go to the Amazon
01:05:51
rainforest in Peru. Um,
01:05:53
>> and they've discovered these like big
01:05:55
square things underground.
01:05:57
>> I've been involved in that.
01:05:58
>> What is What is that? Well, the the name
01:06:00
that's being given to them is uh is
01:06:02
geoglyphs.
01:06:03
>> Geoglyphs.
01:06:05
>> I think I know this one. Nobody knew
01:06:06
they existed at all until about 40 years
01:06:10
ago
01:06:11
>> really.
01:06:11
>> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is
01:06:14
a rainforest and and densely covered
01:06:17
with uh canopy. However, it's constantly
01:06:22
being settled. This is a problem in
01:06:23
itself. It's constantly being settled.
01:06:25
The Amazon is being cleared and it's
01:06:27
being turned into farms. It's the
01:06:28
clearance of bits of the Amazon
01:06:29
initially that exposed these huge
01:06:33
geometric structures.
01:06:34
>> Mhm.
01:06:35
>> Under the rainforest, no longer under
01:06:37
because they cleared the rainforest. Now
01:06:38
with LiDAR, I've been involved with
01:06:40
Marty Parsonan. In fact, he was on my
01:06:42
Netflix show. He's a archaeologist from
01:06:45
Finland and and with Alteo Ramanzi, a
01:06:48
Brazilian geographer. Um what they're
01:06:50
doing is a dense lidar survey of the
01:06:54
whole of Ara province in Brazil. This is
01:06:56
in our Cray province as well. The areas
01:06:59
that are still under canopy rainforest
01:07:01
and lidar can see through the canopy and
01:07:03
it can see raised objects underneath and
01:07:06
it can actually give you the shape of
01:07:07
that object. Then they can go in low u
01:07:11
you know low impact just a few of them
01:07:13
go in check it out see what's there and
01:07:15
then begin the archaeology on the site.
01:07:17
>> I mean this is a prime example. I've got
01:07:19
um I've got a list here of things that
01:07:20
we used to believe and things that how
01:07:23
those beliefs have changed. And one of
01:07:24
them was that we used to believe that
01:07:26
the Amazon was an untouched wilderness.
01:07:27
>> That's right.
01:07:28
>> But in the 1970s, we discovered what, a
01:07:30
thousand of these structures
01:07:32
>> at least. Uh they're confident now from
01:07:35
the LAR work that they're you're talking
01:07:37
of thousands,
01:07:39
3, five, 6 thousand. There are also
01:07:41
roadways that run for 100 km plus. Uh
01:07:45
there's absolutely no doubt that the
01:07:46
Amazon once supported a population of
01:07:48
millions with um extraordinary clever
01:07:52
management of rainforest. soils by
01:07:55
creating a man-made soil that they call
01:07:57
terrapa. It's still used in Brazil
01:07:58
today. We are having to
01:08:01
completely reconceive the Amazon.
01:08:04
It was thought of as a pristine
01:08:06
rainforest which a few human beings
01:08:09
wandered around aimlessly in hunting
01:08:12
whatever. Now we know that it was the
01:08:16
homeland
01:08:18
of a very large population who lived in
01:08:20
city-sized communities.
01:08:23
um who joined those communities with
01:08:26
long straight roadways.
01:08:28
It's it's as though the veil is being
01:08:30
pulled back and we're beginning to see a
01:08:32
completely untold story in the Amazon.
01:08:35
And these geoglyphs,
01:08:37
very precise rectangles, triangles,
01:08:40
circles, squares, all of these it's
01:08:43
geometry. It's geometry. What what's it
01:08:45
what's it doing there in the Amazon? And
01:08:47
and when I when I talked to a local
01:08:49
shaman about this, and I did on on
01:08:51
camera in the in the in the Netflix
01:08:52
show, um he talked to me about how
01:08:55
important these places still are to him,
01:08:57
that these places were made by their
01:08:59
ancestors, that they're places for
01:09:01
shamanic gatherings,
01:09:03
places for shamans to use specifically
01:09:07
to contact the world beyond. Let's be
01:09:10
clear about this. All civilizations,
01:09:12
including ours, although we may deny it,
01:09:14
all of them emerged from shamanism.
01:09:16
Shamanism is the essence uh of the human
01:09:20
adventure uh and and all civilizations
01:09:22
emerge from shamanism. And this one was
01:09:24
shamanism. Yes. Shamanism being the
01:09:27
system of using altered states of
01:09:29
consciousness to gain direct access to
01:09:33
other levels of reality
01:09:35
>> like psychedelics.
01:09:36
>> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a
01:09:39
month. Uh that will give you some
01:09:41
visions too. Uh there there are there
01:09:43
are other ways but but psychedelics are
01:09:45
the most efficient way to enter the
01:09:47
altered state of consciousness and
01:09:48
shamans are masters of the use of plant
01:09:51
medicines everywhere in the world but
01:09:52
particularly in the Amazon rainforest.
01:09:54
This is this is where you you see it
01:09:56
most strongly and DMT the active
01:09:58
ingredient of awaska is very fast acting
01:10:01
in the way that it's normally consumed.
01:10:03
Okay. It's normally vaped or smoked. Uh
01:10:07
it produces a 10-minute journey
01:10:10
literally to the other side of reality.
01:10:12
Uh and there's not much you can do about
01:10:14
it once you're in there. But then you're
01:10:17
out again.
01:10:18
Iaska
01:10:20
is a very clever technology. The Iaska
01:10:22
brew contains DMT.
01:10:25
DMT is not orally active. So you can
01:10:28
drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in
01:10:31
it and it's not going to do anything to
01:10:32
you because there's an enzyme in the gut
01:10:34
that destroys it.
01:10:37
>> The iawaska vine contains a chemical
01:10:40
that shuts that enzyme down and allows
01:10:43
the DMT to be absorbed orally producing
01:10:45
an experience that can last for hours
01:10:47
that can be physically very
01:10:48
uncomfortable. Um what they're doing at
01:10:51
Imperial College is they're giving them
01:10:53
DMT by intravenous infusion
01:10:57
>> using basically anesthesia technology to
01:11:00
constantly top up the dose to keep the
01:11:02
individual in the peak state and unlike
01:11:04
other psychedelics there's no tolerance
01:11:06
with DMT so you can keep on dosing
01:11:09
people
01:11:10
>> when you you've taken OAS 80 times
01:11:13
>> something like that something like that
01:11:15
um it's not just it's important to be
01:11:19
clear about a number of things.
01:11:22
First of all, all psychedelics are
01:11:26
extremely serious matters. They are not
01:11:28
to be taken trivially. They are
01:11:30
extremely serious. With uh
01:11:33
experienced use of Iawaska, one of the
01:11:35
very common reports is this moral
01:11:38
dimension that you are presented with
01:11:41
your own life, with what you've done
01:11:43
with your own life, with the pain that
01:11:45
you may have caused to others. And
01:11:47
suddenly that pain that you caused to
01:11:49
another person which you dismissed as
01:11:51
they just deserved that they just
01:11:52
deserve those words. You suddenly get it
01:11:54
from their point of view. You feel the
01:11:56
agony that your words caused that person
01:11:59
and you and you find yourself did I do
01:12:02
that? Did I say that? You suddenly see
01:12:06
what you are.
01:12:08
You can't go back into your own past and
01:12:11
change negative and useless and
01:12:12
pointless things that you did. You can't
01:12:14
do that. but you can avoid repeating
01:12:17
them in the future. And it's that
01:12:19
teaching of a moral lesson uh that I
01:12:22
find most valuable in Iawaska. It's
01:12:24
helped me to come to terms with my
01:12:26
tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very
01:12:29
aware that that's a problem I have and
01:12:31
it's something I need to do something
01:12:33
about. And I I helped me with that. I'
01:12:35
I've become gentler and and softer. Not
01:12:38
gentle enough, maybe. It's a journey.
01:12:40
It's not a it's not an overnight
01:12:41
transformation. Not a magic pill. Uh the
01:12:44
main work with Iawaska comes after the
01:12:47
medicine. The main work comes with what
01:12:49
you do with the experience, how you
01:12:50
integrate it into your life. That's
01:12:52
where the work begins. People say, "Oh,
01:12:53
it's so easy to take a a brew." Well,
01:12:57
it's not actually not that easy because
01:12:58
you're going to vomit and have diarrhea,
01:12:59
but but easy. Um but that's where the
01:13:03
work begins, not where it ends.
01:13:04
>> And that emotion is that does that stem
01:13:06
back to your relationship with your
01:13:07
parents? Because I was reading about
01:13:09
your early your early years.
01:13:11
Look, we're all frail human beings.
01:13:13
We're all messed about in lots of ways.
01:13:15
We all have we all have issues in our
01:13:17
lives. Um,
01:13:18
>> you said regret.
01:13:20
>> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying
01:13:22
hurtful and unkind things to a number of
01:13:25
people uh over the years. I do I do
01:13:27
regret that very much. I do regret very
01:13:30
much that I wasn't
01:13:33
I wasn't mature enough to realize why my
01:13:36
parents were so difficult. Uh that I
01:13:38
never really forgave them for that. I
01:13:40
never really forgave them for the
01:13:43
stranges of my childhood and and uh the
01:13:47
various things that that that that
01:13:49
happened. I never really saw it from
01:13:50
their point of view. My mother lost
01:13:51
three children aside from me. I'm an
01:13:53
only child, but her first child was
01:13:55
carried to term before me and born dead.
01:13:58
Then I was born. I lived and then the
01:14:00
next two both died at the age of a year.
01:14:02
Well, I know now as a father, I know I
01:14:05
know what what quite a catastrophe that
01:14:08
is for a person for a for a mother to to
01:14:10
lose three children like that.
01:14:12
>> You said weird childhood.
01:14:15
>> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little
01:14:19
Graeme here with my mother and my
01:14:21
father. I was It was 1954
01:14:24
that we landed in India. My father was a
01:14:27
s consultant surgeon and so he went as a
01:14:29
missionary surgeon to India to a place
01:14:32
called the Christian medical college in
01:14:33
velour in south India. Um and we lived
01:14:36
in a tin hut but he was following his
01:14:38
faith. He was doing what was what was
01:14:40
right for him. He was giving his skills
01:14:42
to help to help people. I I I realize
01:14:44
that now and a lot of resentment I have
01:14:46
towards him I probably you know
01:14:49
shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He
01:14:52
was very eccentric. He used to take me
01:14:54
in to watch dissections. Um the there
01:14:58
were still hangings in India at that
01:15:00
time and he would dissect the prisoners
01:15:02
after the hangings. He had me in there
01:15:03
watching it. Um he took me later on.
01:15:06
>> What age?
01:15:07
>> Uh uh five.
01:15:09
>> You were watching bodies being cut up at
01:15:11
five.
01:15:11
>> I was. Yeah. Absolutely very strange.
01:15:13
See it was presented to me as completely
01:15:15
normal. Um but but it was it it was
01:15:18
strange. Fundamentally he was a good man
01:15:20
I believe.
01:15:22
But I think allowing a 4 to 5year-old
01:15:25
child be to see those things is deeply
01:15:29
traumatic in a way that you probably
01:15:31
don't recognize until later.
01:15:33
>> I I agree. It's it's come home to me
01:15:35
more and more as the years have gone by
01:15:38
that what happened to me in those years
01:15:39
in India
01:15:41
scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the
01:15:44
operating theaters and the dissections,
01:15:47
the dissections. It was the gloom and
01:15:50
the misery and the despair that settled
01:15:54
over my family at that time and I don't
01:15:56
think I ever really recovered from that.
01:15:57
>> Did you have nightmares?
01:15:59
>> Yeah.
01:15:59
>> And what what were those nightmares?
01:16:02
>> Um, usually nightmares of loss. Usually
01:16:06
nightmares of
01:16:08
suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a
01:16:11
I'm completely isolated, lost, alone.
01:16:15
The reason I ask these questions is
01:16:17
there's only ever been one other guest
01:16:20
who I sat here with a couple of years
01:16:22
ago
01:16:23
>> who I believe's dad was a surgeon.
01:16:26
>> Mhm.
01:16:26
>> And his dad brought him in to watch
01:16:29
operations and dissections when he was
01:16:31
young.
01:16:32
>> Yeah.
01:16:32
>> And it scarred him in a way that he
01:16:35
didn't realize until later. Yeah.
01:16:37
>> And he told me about the nightmares of
01:16:39
waking up in the night and seeing those
01:16:40
bodies of those people around his bed on
01:16:43
a predictable basis and told me he
01:16:45
actually um coached Michael Jordan
01:16:48
>> and then um Kobe before Kobe Bryant um
01:16:53
passed away and he told me still as an
01:16:55
adult those bodies join him at night
01:16:57
time. So he'll wake up at nighttime and
01:16:59
he'll see them around
01:17:00
>> around his bed. So
01:17:01
>> well thank you universe. That didn't
01:17:03
happen to me. I I I do not have I don't
01:17:06
remember having gruesome nightmares. I
01:17:09
remember a feeling of loneliness and
01:17:11
abandonment. That's what I remember.
01:17:14
>> Loneliness and abandonment.
01:17:15
>> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was
01:17:18
always an outsider at school. Uh
01:17:21
everywhere I've been all my life. That's
01:17:24
what I'm for. I'm here to be an
01:17:26
outsider. I've come to that conclusion.
01:17:28
And and uh I need to do that. Well, I
01:17:32
need to provide an alternative point of
01:17:34
view on the past.
01:17:35
>> There's a real cost to being an
01:17:36
outsider.
01:17:36
>> Oh, yeah. But there are also some
01:17:38
benefits. You know, we are what we are.
01:17:40
And and for me, I was always strange. I
01:17:43
had this childhood in in in India. I
01:17:46
didn't fit into the British school
01:17:47
system. I was a total failure at school.
01:17:51
I could not connect. I could not connect
01:17:54
with any of it. It seemed I just didn't
01:17:55
get it. What was this about? And and and
01:17:57
the cruelty, the viciousness. My dad
01:18:00
went to a boarding school and had a good
01:18:02
experience. So he sent me to a boarding
01:18:03
school in Durham in the north of
01:18:05
England. It was the crulest place,
01:18:08
beatings going on. I I was repeatedly
01:18:11
beaten about the bare buttocks by a
01:18:13
sadistic headmaster with a cane. I
01:18:16
couldn't fit in with the other kids at
01:18:17
school. And uh I don't feel victimized
01:18:20
for being an outsider. I feel I feel
01:18:21
it's a privilege. I feel I've been given
01:18:23
I've been given an opportunity to take a
01:18:26
different view of things as a result of
01:18:28
being an outsider.
01:18:30
>> Are there words unsaid here with these
01:18:32
two people in your life?
01:18:33
>> Yes, there are there are so many words
01:18:34
unsaid. I'd like to go back to my mom
01:18:37
and say,
01:18:39
you know, I understand why you were so
01:18:41
obsessed with keeping me alive and
01:18:42
making sure that I did something with my
01:18:44
life. And I'd like to say to my dad,
01:18:46
look, you you were pretty crazy, but you
01:18:48
you did at least inspire me to be
01:18:50
eccentric.
01:18:52
It's a funny thing getting older. I'm
01:18:54
75, 76 in August. One of the things it
01:18:58
does is it you realize how collapsed
01:19:01
life actually is. I remember being a
01:19:03
teenager and I remember being a young
01:19:05
man and and I remember being
01:19:06
middle-aged. And the feeling is you're
01:19:09
immortal. It's going to go on forever.
01:19:10
Everything's going to go on forever. And
01:19:12
it's long. It's long. Lots of time to do
01:19:15
the things you want to do. I have a
01:19:17
message. No, it's not long. There is not
01:19:20
lots of time. If there's things you want
01:19:22
to do with your life, start now. Start
01:19:24
right away. Don't wait. Otherwise,
01:19:26
you'll not have the opportunity. Life is
01:19:28
very short. It's a beautiful, beautiful
01:19:31
gift that the universe has given to us.
01:19:34
We are responsible for returning that
01:19:36
gift by as far as possible within the
01:19:39
circumstances that the universe has
01:19:40
given us living a full life and
01:19:42
contributing something worthwhile to
01:19:45
that life. Not being a robot, not being
01:19:49
commanded what to do, not We we need to
01:19:51
learn to think for ourselves. This is
01:19:53
something that is so easily forgotten.
01:19:57
It's a miracle that you and I are
01:20:00
sitting here at all that I'm here, that
01:20:01
you're here, that we're here together.
01:20:02
It's absolute miracle. It's a result of
01:20:05
billions and billions of years of
01:20:06
processes in the universe which had
01:20:09
nothing to do with us randomly bring us
01:20:11
together at this at this point. It's
01:20:13
it's really quite a miraculous
01:20:14
situation. To be alive, to be born at
01:20:16
all is a miracle. Um I think it was
01:20:19
Voltater who talking about reincarnation
01:20:22
uh who said um it's no more
01:20:24
extraordinary to be born twice than to
01:20:27
be born once. Uh and I think there's a
01:20:29
point in that.
01:20:30
>> Are you religious? You believe in a god
01:20:31
or
01:20:31
>> I would say that I am um that I pay
01:20:35
attention close attention to what I
01:20:38
would regard as the spiritual
01:20:39
non-physical side of life. Um but I do
01:20:42
not belong to any organized religion.
01:20:44
One of the things I don't like about
01:20:45
organized religion is that your
01:20:47
relationship to the divine, whatever you
01:20:49
call the divine spirit world, whatever
01:20:51
you want to call it, your relationship
01:20:52
is mediated in some way. Some priest or
01:20:57
rabbi or müller teaches you how to
01:21:00
mediate that relationship. And I I think
01:21:02
what's important in for me anyway in in
01:21:05
the spiritual inquiry is a direct
01:21:06
relationship, a direct experience.
01:21:08
Rather than being taught something, I
01:21:10
want to experience it for myself. And
01:21:13
that's why I found Iawaska very very
01:21:15
valuable. Um because it has enabled me
01:21:17
to experience something that is
01:21:19
absolutely impossible to experience in
01:21:21
normal everyday life. We're so plugged
01:21:24
in. We're so plugged in to the physical
01:21:26
world and we have to be we've got to be
01:21:28
we got to obey the laws of physics. We
01:21:30
got to deal with the economics of our
01:21:31
circumstances. You know, we have to make
01:21:33
our way through life. All of those
01:21:34
things we've got to do. Um, but
01:21:39
if they become our total focus, we
01:21:42
become shut off from everything and
01:21:45
anything else that may exist. And what
01:21:47
the big psychedelics can do if they're
01:21:50
taken in the right circumstances with
01:21:52
the right advice
01:21:54
with sincere intention, what they can do
01:21:56
is get you out of your own way and allow
01:21:59
you to connect to that wider realm that
01:22:01
normally you cannot connect to. And yes,
01:22:03
I do believe that a wider realm exists.
01:22:06
uh just in the same way that uh you you
01:22:09
know before the invention of the
01:22:10
microscope we had no idea that there
01:22:13
were bacteria I think I'm right about
01:22:14
that we start seeing these tiny little
01:22:16
things swimming around gosh major
01:22:18
discovery well they were always there we
01:22:20
just didn't have the kit to see them and
01:22:22
I'm suggesting that what psychedelics
01:22:24
can be and certainly what they used as
01:22:25
shamans by for is a technology a device
01:22:30
uh for getting you out of your own way
01:22:32
and allowing you to connect with other
01:22:34
levels of reality that in daily life it
01:22:36
doesn't serve you to be connected with.
01:22:40
>> The interesting thing about DMT in
01:22:42
particular is when you speak to people
01:22:44
who have done DMT, you know, I spent
01:22:45
about a year working in a quite a big
01:22:47
psychedelics company just to I got
01:22:49
really fascinated. I'd left my company.
01:22:51
I didn't have anything to do with my
01:22:52
time. So I started this podcast and I
01:22:54
also uh on YouTube and I also started
01:22:57
working at a psychedelics business cuz I
01:22:59
found the studies on mental health and
01:23:01
psychedelics really interesting. So I
01:23:02
have quite a deep understanding I guess
01:23:04
higher than average of IV gain and Iaska
01:23:07
and DMT and my partner um is very very
01:23:10
spiritual and has done all these things
01:23:11
as well. So
01:23:13
>> one of the fascinating things is how
01:23:14
similar people's experiences are on
01:23:16
something like DMT. the funnily enough
01:23:19
your description of these creatures
01:23:21
saying you're you belong to us now is
01:23:25
almost verbatim what what one of my
01:23:28
friends described two weeks ago
01:23:30
>> that they were teleported into this like
01:23:32
4K realm where these creatures that are
01:23:35
like slightly animal in their anatomical
01:23:38
structure maybe slightly a little bit
01:23:39
human as well
01:23:40
>> basically was like had
01:23:43
>> had taken hold of him
01:23:45
>> and they were very curious and
01:23:46
inspecting him very colorful realm and
01:23:48
then they kind of sent him back or at
01:23:49
least you know after the and and it does
01:23:52
make one wonder. I think one of my
01:23:53
conclusions was if if inhaling a small
01:23:55
chemical can completely take me to
01:23:58
another place
01:24:00
>> then and and if you from a reasoning
01:24:02
perspective it's just a it was an in one
01:24:04
inhale of a chemical then it goes to say
01:24:08
that my current perception of reality
01:24:11
>> is just is as fragile as an inhale of a
01:24:15
chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here
01:24:17
with you now
01:24:18
>> is as fragile as inhaling
01:24:21
>> one chemical. Yeah.
01:24:22
>> So to think that this is base reality
01:24:25
when the difference between this and
01:24:26
being with some grasshopper people
01:24:28
>> in 4K
01:24:29
>> Exactly.
01:24:30
>> is literally an ale. It just that for me
01:24:33
I was like, "Oh, wow." Okay.
01:24:34
>> It's an extraordinary realization when
01:24:37
that comes and it causes us to question
01:24:38
the nature of reality itself. And this
01:24:41
is um this is what's really important
01:24:44
about these medicines. First and
01:24:46
foremost, you're right. the these um
01:24:48
psychedelic medicines are proving
01:24:50
incredibly effective as therapeutic
01:24:52
tools and that's great. I I I really I
01:24:55
think that's incredibly valuable. But
01:24:57
there's another level to go which is to
01:24:59
the inquiry into the nature of reality
01:25:02
and the inquiry into what consciousness
01:25:04
is. These medicines are very effective
01:25:07
means to conduct that inquiry. And
01:25:09
that's why I applaud what they're doing
01:25:11
at Imperial College in London. They're
01:25:13
also going to be doing trials at the
01:25:15
University of California, San Diego. Um
01:25:19
they're going to be doing trials in
01:25:20
Costa Rica. Uh a whole range of places
01:25:23
now are looking into this because it's
01:25:24
really interesting people coming back
01:25:26
and reporting the same experience when
01:25:28
they haven't compared notes yet.
01:25:30
>> How do we explain that? Because it's in
01:25:32
a vision
01:25:34
>> and people say that at the moment the
01:25:36
default mode is to dismiss it and say
01:25:38
that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on
01:25:40
it. Our preconceptions about the nature
01:25:43
of reality should not limit our inquiry
01:25:47
into the nature of reality. And at the
01:25:49
moment still unfortunately there are
01:25:52
preconceptions about the nature of
01:25:53
reality which is that it's materialbased
01:25:56
that there's nothing else to it really.
01:25:58
Everything is reduced to matter. Even
01:26:00
consciousness is reduced to matter. It's
01:26:03
reduced to the physical matter of the
01:26:05
brain. We don't know that for sure. We
01:26:07
don't know what's going on.
01:26:09
consciousness is absolutely not
01:26:10
understood. And so when we have
01:26:12
mysteries like people who are injected a
01:26:15
small dose of a chemical like DMT and go
01:26:17
off into a completely other reality,
01:26:20
that's really interesting. And it's it's
01:26:22
it's it's at least as interesting, if
01:26:25
not more interesting than exploring
01:26:27
other planets right now. I think we need
01:26:29
to I think we need to explore ourselves
01:26:31
first. We need to We're not in shape as
01:26:35
a species to start exploring the
01:26:37
universe. We don't want to export our
01:26:39
toxicity to other parts of the universe
01:26:42
until we've overcome it, until we've
01:26:44
grown up as a species, which we haven't
01:26:46
done yet. We need to know ourselves.
01:26:48
Psychedelics are one way to do that. Not
01:26:51
used irresponsibly, but used responsibly
01:26:54
in a structured, careful, thoughtful
01:26:56
way. They can be very helpful in knowing
01:27:00
ourselves. That's the journey we need to
01:27:02
do first. Go to Mars by all means, you
01:27:05
know, go to the moon. we go even
01:27:07
further, but do this first. Know who you
01:27:09
are first before you start doing those
01:27:12
bigger and wider investigations. Get all
01:27:14
that sorted out because we're hardly
01:27:16
sorted out anything on this planet and
01:27:18
we're talking about exploring other
01:27:19
planets. Well, I'm all in favor of
01:27:21
exploring other planets, but I'd like to
01:27:23
sort out things on this planet first.
01:27:25
That's where the resources should be
01:27:27
going. And we should stop kidding
01:27:28
ourselves that we can just escape this
01:27:30
planet and make a complete hole of
01:27:33
it, leave it, and go and live somewhere
01:27:34
else. No, we can fix this. We are
01:27:37
capable of fixing this. We're capable of
01:27:39
fixing everything. Human beings have
01:27:41
enormous potential. We're just using a
01:27:44
fraction of 1% of it at the moment.
01:27:47
>> The question I, you know, I mean, the
01:27:49
obvious question that comes to mind is
01:27:50
how I see, you know, maybe I don't know,
01:27:53
maybe some kind of leader comes along.
01:27:55
>> Could be. Um, I think we need to need to
01:27:59
move past leaders.
01:28:00
>> I just don't know how else humans would
01:28:01
change without some kind of leadership.
01:28:03
It's very difficult to see. I agree with
01:28:05
you. It's very it's very difficult to
01:28:06
see how it happens one person at a time
01:28:09
um slowly through through word of mouth,
01:28:12
through experience. But look, everything
01:28:14
in the Iawaska garden is not all flowers
01:28:17
either. There's a lot of very wrong
01:28:19
behavior going on there. People are
01:28:20
exploiting that medicine. Basically,
01:28:22
drug dealers are exploiting that
01:28:24
medicine and offering it irresponsibly
01:28:26
to people in groups of a hundred or even
01:28:29
more. that that that's that's actually
01:28:31
really really stupid to do that. I Iaska
01:28:35
is an intimate experience and it needs
01:28:36
to be done in a very small group, not a
01:28:39
very large group.
01:28:41
So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not
01:28:44
you know I'm not trying to paint these
01:28:45
medicines in a in in a false light. They
01:28:48
have their downsides. They have their
01:28:50
problems. They are extremely serious. We
01:28:52
should always research and investigate
01:28:54
before any experience with psychedelics,
01:28:57
but they have a part to play and it's an
01:29:00
important part. And thank God we're
01:29:01
seeing its effects. Psilocybin effect on
01:29:04
long-term depression, very important.
01:29:06
Post-traumatic stress disorder, very
01:29:09
important. These therapeutic
01:29:11
breakthroughs hopefully will open the
01:29:13
door to further inquiries into the kind
01:29:17
of work that's being done at Imperial
01:29:19
College. What does this really tell us
01:29:20
about the mystery of consciousness? What
01:29:23
does this really tell us about what we
01:29:24
think is real?
01:29:26
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01:30:27
>> Through your journey through um ancient
01:30:29
civilizations, what have you come to
01:30:31
learn about what this consciousness
01:30:33
thing is, if anything at all, or at
01:30:34
least what people believed.
01:30:35
>> Yeah.
01:30:36
>> Um and how those mythologies were
01:30:38
similar.
01:30:38
>> Yes. I've partly I've partly come to
01:30:40
this through the ancient texts. There's
01:30:43
a very specific uh scene in a number of
01:30:48
the ancient Egyptianerary texts. It's
01:30:50
called the judgment scene. And what you
01:30:53
see is you see the deceased entering
01:30:55
into a hall into a room at the end of
01:30:57
which sits the god Osiris enthroned.
01:31:01
And uh the deceased is led into the hall
01:31:04
by the goddess Mart. She's recognized by
01:31:07
a feather that she wears in her
01:31:08
headdress. She's the goddess of truth,
01:31:10
justice, and cosmic harmony.
01:31:14
He enters the hall. There's a scale in
01:31:18
the hall. In one pan of the scale is an
01:31:22
object that represents his heart,
01:31:25
oblique, his soul. Heart and soul were
01:31:27
the same thing for the Egyptians in that
01:31:29
sense. And in the other pan is the
01:31:32
feather of mart, the feather of truth,
01:31:35
harmony, and cosmic justice.
01:31:38
You do not want your heart to outweigh
01:31:40
the feather at that moment.
01:31:43
You want at the very least to be in
01:31:46
balance.
01:31:48
And in order to be in balance then comes
01:31:50
into question the whole way that you've
01:31:52
lived your life. Up on the wall of the
01:31:55
hall there are 42 little figures.
01:31:57
They're called the 42 negative
01:31:59
assessors. Each one of them is going to
01:32:00
ask you a question. Did you steal? Did
01:32:04
you kill? Actually, the ten commandments
01:32:05
are all in there and a lot more as well.
01:32:08
Ideally, you should be able to answer no
01:32:11
to all of those questions, but the
01:32:12
ancient Egyptians always understood how
01:32:15
frail human beings are and that we can
01:32:17
always make mistakes. The question is,
01:32:19
what do we do when we make a mistake? Do
01:32:21
we learn from it or do we keep on
01:32:22
repeating it? And what I read into that
01:32:25
is you were given, you deceased, you
01:32:28
were given an incredible opportunity. We
01:32:31
allowed you to be born in a human body.
01:32:34
You could have a range of experiences
01:32:36
that no other physical form on your
01:32:38
planet could have. You you you had this
01:32:40
huge brain. You had this enormous
01:32:42
capacity. We gave it this to you. What
01:32:45
did you do with it?
01:32:48
Did you use it well or did you squander
01:32:50
it and waste it? And at that moment,
01:32:52
you'd better be there with some answers
01:32:54
about how you used it well. So, as I
01:32:56
come towards the end of my life, I look
01:32:59
very carefully at my life. I and um I
01:33:03
try to undo wrongs that I have done in
01:33:05
the past if I can and I try to make sure
01:33:07
I don't do any more in the future. I
01:33:09
want to be a nurturing and positive and
01:33:12
useful person to the people around me.
01:33:16
>> The the health situation you've gone
01:33:17
through has clearly made you quite
01:33:19
introspective, probably more so than you
01:33:20
you might have been 10 years ago, I'm
01:33:22
guessing.
01:33:22
>> Oh, yeah. AB: Absolutely. I was still
01:33:24
immortal 10 years ago. M
01:33:27
>> listen each and every one of us, every
01:33:30
single human being on this planet could
01:33:32
die in the next minute. Life is that
01:33:35
fragile. It's that sudden. You can never
01:33:37
predict you you how long you're going to
01:33:40
live. But what something like this does,
01:33:42
it focuses the mind and it does make me
01:33:45
wish more and more that I can leave this
01:33:48
life with as few regrets as possible and
01:33:52
that I can feel that I played a useful
01:33:55
and positive role in the life of others
01:33:58
and that I even played in some way a
01:34:03
useful and positive role in the life of
01:34:06
the species to which I belong. Are you
01:34:09
happy?
01:34:11
>> I am very happy
01:34:14
in a lot of ways. I'm blessed to have
01:34:18
lived the life I've lived, to have
01:34:21
traveled the world, to have the
01:34:23
adventures that I have had. I am blessed
01:34:26
with a beautiful and wonderful wife and
01:34:28
companion. My wife Samtha
01:34:30
>> got this wonderful picture of her.
01:34:31
>> Yeah.
01:34:32
>> Glows.
01:34:32
>> That's me and Samantha. We met when we
01:34:35
were about 40 years old. And um I don't
01:34:39
think we've been apart more than 4 days
01:34:42
in the entire 30 plus years uh since
01:34:45
then.
01:34:46
>> Wow.
01:34:46
>> Uh we do everything together. We travel
01:34:48
together. Samantha's a photographer.
01:34:49
Brilliant photographer. And and and uh I
01:34:52
do not have a great visual eye. So we
01:34:54
work together. I do the words. Sa does
01:34:55
the pictures. We have the adventures
01:34:57
together. We did the scuba diving
01:34:58
together. Samantha nearly lost her life
01:35:01
twice in intense currents scuba diving.
01:35:05
She's brave. She's an adventurer.
01:35:07
She's a wonderful mother. This is so
01:35:10
important. Samantha and I have six
01:35:12
children between us. Samantha brought
01:35:14
two from her previous marriage. I
01:35:16
brought two from my first marriage and
01:35:17
two from my second marriage. So, six
01:35:20
children from three broken marriages is
01:35:22
a potential disaster. Santa brought them
01:35:25
all together into a group of loving,
01:35:28
deeply committed siblings who care for
01:35:30
one another, who are constantly in each
01:35:32
other's lives, who are there to support
01:35:34
one another. SA did that by just being a
01:35:37
brilliant, loving person. So, I'm very
01:35:40
happy to have such a great partner who's
01:35:44
stood by me through thick and thin and
01:35:46
who's brought out these wonderful
01:35:49
characters in in in our children and now
01:35:51
our grandchildren. You know, nine
01:35:52
grandchildren, six grandkids, all of
01:35:55
it's down to Santa. It's remarkable that
01:35:56
through all the wonders of human history
01:35:58
and all the things we talked about that
01:36:00
love like this kind of romantic love is
01:36:05
so central, so important, so central to
01:36:07
our happiness. I just thought, oh, it's
01:36:09
it's just a wonderful reminder of um how
01:36:11
easy it is to get caught up in the
01:36:13
material and and all the toxic whereas,
01:36:16
you know, so much of it comes from just
01:36:19
the simplicity of falling in love with
01:36:20
someone.
01:36:20
>> Love is what it's all about. And and
01:36:22
love is love is giving. It's giving
01:36:25
yourself to somebody else. It's putting
01:36:28
the other person. Sorry, I'm going to
01:36:30
end up crying. This This is what my wife
01:36:32
does all the time with everybody.
01:36:37
She puts other people first and uh
01:36:41
others benefit enormously from that. I'm
01:36:43
very fortunate. I think I think if I
01:36:47
hadn't met Samantha when I did and we
01:36:50
hadn't formed this joint life, I think I
01:36:55
would have made nothing of my life.
01:36:56
Nothing at all really.
01:36:58
>> I think it would have just gone down the
01:36:59
tubes. I needed a loving steering hand
01:37:02
at that point. Anyway, very lucky. I I I
01:37:05
am happy. There are things that make me
01:37:06
unhappy, of course, just like every
01:37:08
every every other human being. I I don't
01:37:10
understand why those who are bitterly
01:37:13
opposed to my work want to try and
01:37:16
present me as some kind of fraud or
01:37:17
grifter. But I suppose it's a easy way
01:37:20
to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh,
01:37:22
another thing that has been used is
01:37:26
because I've considered the possibility
01:37:27
of a lost civilization having an
01:37:30
influence on other known historical
01:37:33
civilization. Uh I've been accused of
01:37:35
racism as well that I've been I've been
01:37:37
accused of taking away the authenticity
01:37:40
of indigenous achievements. Um and and
01:37:43
that again has been without without any
01:37:46
receipts. It's not been it's just thrown
01:37:48
out there as an accusation. Now for me
01:37:51
with with a multithnic family uh that
01:37:55
racism abuse that has been thrown at me
01:37:57
constantly uh is extremely hurtful and
01:38:00
extremely painful. It's one of the few
01:38:02
things that have been thrown at me that
01:38:04
I actually cannot forgive. It's
01:38:07
unforgivable to use that lazy
01:38:11
easy dismissal
01:38:14
in a society where a lot of people don't
01:38:15
read anymore. I mean, pretty much
01:38:17
guarantee people who hear that on the
01:38:19
internet, they're not going to go and
01:38:20
read the books and actually find out
01:38:21
what I said. They're just going to take
01:38:23
it as face value. So, that does hurt and
01:38:25
it does make me sad. But generally, I'm
01:38:27
blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a
01:38:30
fantastic privileged life. I've explored
01:38:33
the world. I'm surrounded by love and
01:38:36
onwards and upwards as far as I'm
01:38:38
concerned.
01:38:39
>> Well, you know, Graeme, I think at the
01:38:41
end of the day, the thing that endures
01:38:43
is
01:38:44
>> the impact, the curiosity that you've
01:38:46
you've provoked in people, allowed them
01:38:48
to wander beyond the narrowness of our
01:38:50
lives, which is quite miserable.
01:38:52
>> A narrow life is feels quite like a
01:38:53
miserable life where you can't be
01:38:54
open-minded and explore. And and that's
01:38:56
why I love these conversations. It's not
01:38:58
to say that I that I always accept when
01:39:00
I have these kind of conversations
01:39:01
everything to be 100% true, but the net
01:39:03
benefit for me is just expanding my mind
01:39:06
>> to possibility.
01:39:07
>> Absolutely.
01:39:08
>> And like please don't rob me of the
01:39:09
opportunity to expand my mind to
01:39:11
possibility. What would my life become
01:39:13
without possibility or hope or these
01:39:16
things? And and actually when I look at
01:39:18
>> graphs like this that show how our
01:39:20
beliefs uh and scientific understanding
01:39:22
has changed even in recent times as as
01:39:24
recent as 2017 on this particular graph.
01:39:27
I go well I have some arrogance to
01:39:29
assume that I know it all today.
01:39:31
>> Totally. Things things are constantly
01:39:33
changing. You know every turn of the
01:39:35
spade in an archaeological dig can
01:39:38
change the whole story.
01:39:39
>> Change the whole story. This is not
01:39:41
limited to archaeology. This is found in
01:39:43
all fields where there are specialists
01:39:45
that they they tend to get locked into a
01:39:48
particular reference frame and actually
01:39:50
defend it in a territorial way. It
01:39:52
becomes like a war and they they they
01:39:55
feel absolutely responsible to defend
01:39:57
that territory against all comers and
01:39:59
will use any dirty tricks that are
01:40:01
needed to be used in order to defeat the
01:40:03
enemy. So you asked me a straightforward
01:40:05
question. Am I happy? Yes, I am happy.
01:40:08
And I honestly answered you that there
01:40:09
are certain things, particularly the
01:40:11
racism assaults on me, that do make me
01:40:14
extremely unhappy.
01:40:15
>> What else do I need to know about the
01:40:18
the possibility of an ancient
01:40:19
civilization that might inform how I
01:40:22
think about myself, my life, and I guess
01:40:25
also our future. What I found so
01:40:26
fascinating is especially we're in a
01:40:28
moment of this AI revolution where
01:40:30
you've got these sort of big forces of
01:40:31
you got nuclear weapons over here,
01:40:32
you've now got this advanced
01:40:33
intelligence, there's humanoid robots on
01:40:35
the horizon. And if there was ever a
01:40:37
moment where the word, you know,
01:40:39
existential is being used in a in a way
01:40:42
that is probably appropriate for me, it
01:40:43
feels like now.
01:40:44
>> Yeah, feels like now to me, too. Uh this
01:40:48
is uh no doubt uh our species is poised
01:40:51
on the edge of an abyss right now. Uh
01:40:54
our technology has outgrown our
01:40:56
mentality. Uh and we're not uh we're not
01:41:00
in good shape to deal with the
01:41:02
challenges that lie ahead. I I un
01:41:04
unfortunately the chances of a nuclear
01:41:07
exchange are just higher and higher.
01:41:09
That's just a realistic assessment of
01:41:10
the way the world is with these maniacal
01:41:12
leaders. So what could we learn from the
01:41:14
past? We can I I I believe we can learn
01:41:17
that there's another way to live that we
01:41:18
don't have to do it this way.
01:41:21
>> I I that's that's something I believe.
01:41:24
>> Okay. Believe
01:41:25
>> that's something I don't know.
01:41:26
>> Okay. I guess I'm optimistic that human
01:41:29
beings have made it through
01:41:32
all these centuries, all these thousands
01:41:34
of years, all these hundreds of
01:41:36
thousands of years that we've made it
01:41:38
through. We've made terrible mistakes
01:41:40
and terrible. I mean, look at the Second
01:41:42
World War. God know how many people were
01:41:45
killed there. 20 million Russians alone
01:41:47
if I remember correct. It was just
01:41:48
horrific. Absolute horror. It's only
01:41:52
when I was born in 1950, the Second
01:41:54
World War was only 5 years away. and at
01:41:56
the end of it and it hung over us. You
01:41:58
know, you our our generation were aware
01:42:00
of that, but it seems to me people today
01:42:03
aren't aware of the horror of global war
01:42:05
in the way that they were and and and uh
01:42:08
that adds to the to the danger that we
01:42:11
will emulate ourselves. I think a new
01:42:15
approach to the nature of reality is
01:42:17
really vital. I think we we need to
01:42:19
begin to understand consciousness
01:42:21
better. Uh and what I would wish for the
01:42:24
human species
01:42:27
is that we understand we are actually
01:42:28
all one. Incredibly diverse,
01:42:32
full of creativity and differences, but
01:42:34
but all one. And a mother in the middle
01:42:38
of subsahara and Africa and a mother in
01:42:40
New York City, they love their kids in
01:42:43
exactly the same way. They hope for
01:42:45
their kids in exactly the same way.
01:42:47
There's no difference between them at
01:42:49
all. As long as we're as long as we're
01:42:52
indoctrinated into this notion of
01:42:54
divisive differences, I'm all in favor
01:42:56
of differences between human beings.
01:42:59
That's part of our creativity as our
01:43:01
species, but divisive differences,
01:43:04
that's what's going to kill us off. Uh,
01:43:06
and that's, I think, the message that
01:43:09
comes down from the past. Whether it's a
01:43:11
correct message or not, the message is
01:43:14
we, a former civilization,
01:43:17
made a terrible mistake. and it resulted
01:43:21
in a cataclysm that brought us down. I
01:43:25
think we need to realize that can happen
01:43:26
again. Uh and that we are most likely to
01:43:30
be the cause of that cataclysm
01:43:31
ourselves. Uh there may there may be a
01:43:35
danger of further comet impacts. The
01:43:37
younger drius comet fragments. It's
01:43:39
called the torid meteor stream. The
01:43:42
earth passes through it twice a year in
01:43:45
June and in October, November. Uh there
01:43:48
are hundreds of deadly objects in the
01:43:50
torid meteor stream. It could happen.
01:43:52
But I think a much more likely way that
01:43:54
we're going to bring our civilization
01:43:58
back almost to the stone age is nuclear
01:44:02
war.
01:44:03
We're going to do it to ourselves.
01:44:05
Unless we wake up, unless we become more
01:44:09
conscious of what it is to be a human
01:44:11
being, of the privilege and the gift of
01:44:14
being a human being, and how that
01:44:15
privilege of gift belongs to every human
01:44:17
being, not just to us. But I don't know
01:44:21
how that's going to be done. I I I do
01:44:23
think psychedelics can play a role. I've
01:44:26
said many times and I'll say it again.
01:44:27
If I if I had the power to do so, I
01:44:31
would insist that every world leader has
01:44:33
at least at least a dozen sessions of
01:44:36
Iawaska before they even apply for the
01:44:39
job.
01:44:40
>> Because you believe that would give them
01:44:41
the same feeling of oneness that
01:44:43
>> I think most of them wouldn't apply for
01:44:44
the job at all.
01:44:45
>> Oh, really?
01:44:46
>> And those who did would would probably
01:44:48
do a much better job
01:44:50
>> because they'd understand themselves
01:44:52
better.
01:44:54
Graeme, what is the most important thing
01:44:55
we haven't discussed as it relates to
01:44:58
our past and what it might teach us or,
01:45:01
you know, how it might inform how we
01:45:02
choose to live our lives today? Um, that
01:45:04
we haven't discussed. Look, the most
01:45:07
important thing as far as far as I'm
01:45:08
concerned is independent inquiry. We
01:45:11
need to start thinking for ourselves and
01:45:13
that's true of the past and it's true of
01:45:15
everything else. uh to the to the extent
01:45:18
that I that I do get positive feedback
01:45:20
from young people and I do a lot that
01:45:24
feedback is thank you for being an
01:45:26
example to question everything.
01:45:28
>> Mhm.
01:45:29
>> It happens that what I'm questioning is
01:45:32
the past but that can be a model for
01:45:35
questioning everything. I I feel that
01:45:39
that
01:45:41
very poor journalism
01:45:43
being used to smear my name because I
01:45:47
asked questions and because I asked them
01:45:49
vigorously and because most important of
01:45:52
all I reached a large audience. That's
01:45:55
it really. They won't sneer your name if
01:45:58
you don't reach a large audience. You're
01:45:59
not worth their trouble.
01:46:00
>> I know the feeling.
01:46:02
>> Yeah. But I think but you know for me my
01:46:04
thing has always been that um all it's
01:46:06
done has made me clearer like you know
01:46:08
you have a bigger platform more people
01:46:10
um watching you etc and talking about
01:46:12
you all it's done for me is made me
01:46:14
clearer on my principles and what I
01:46:16
believe and I'm actually really thankful
01:46:18
for that in a weird way. Yeah,
01:46:19
>> because you're forced to, you know, when
01:46:20
you hear so many things said about you
01:46:22
or written about you, whatever, it does
01:46:24
focus one minds on, okay, like who am I
01:46:26
and what matters? What am I where am I
01:46:28
uncompromising in terms of the
01:46:30
conversations I want to have, the way I
01:46:31
want to do it? And that's given me a
01:46:33
huge amount of clarity and one of the
01:46:34
things that I'm really
01:46:36
>> I really want to make sure is that it
01:46:38
doesn't make me um bitter or resentful
01:46:40
in any way.
01:46:41
>> Very important.
01:46:42
>> And you can see how it happens. Yeah, I
01:46:44
can I can absolutely see how it happens
01:46:46
>> because you you have to live with a sort
01:46:47
of um injustice potentially or being
01:46:51
mischaracterized or whatever. So, it's
01:46:53
easy to see how one can slip off into
01:46:54
bitterness and resentment and
01:46:56
>> that's a that's a big part of the work
01:46:58
I'm doing on myself at the moment. I I'm
01:47:01
confident that I am doing the right
01:47:03
thing with my life. I'm doing no harm to
01:47:05
anyone and I'm putting ideas out there
01:47:07
that are worth thinking about. I'm
01:47:09
confident of that. I have no I have no
01:47:11
doubts about that. And what will you
01:47:13
care about on your on your last day?
01:47:16
>> Most of all, the love of my family.
01:47:20
That's the most important thing to me.
01:47:22
And um I don't know, the feeling that
01:47:28
I did my best. I did the best I could to
01:47:33
carry out the task that uh fell upon me
01:47:36
quite by accident. I didn't I was a
01:47:38
current affairs journalist in the 1980s.
01:47:41
I had no idea I was going to go down
01:47:43
this rabbit hole into the ancient world.
01:47:44
It was a series of accidents that led to
01:47:47
it. But having gone down it, I feel very
01:47:50
very very committed to it.
01:47:52
>> It's interesting because one of the ways
01:47:54
that I um I've always chosen to conduct
01:47:56
my interviews is just to um judge people
01:47:58
as I find them. I remember once upon a
01:47:59
time I had Brian Johnson coming on my
01:48:01
podcast and you know he's quite a he's a
01:48:03
he has some radical beliefs about living
01:48:04
forever etc. He's the longevity guy. And
01:48:07
I remember one of my team members
01:48:08
walking up to me beforehand and saying
01:48:09
before he had arrived and saying, "What
01:48:10
do you think of him?"
01:48:11
>> And I remember saying, "I have no idea.
01:48:12
I've not met him yet."
01:48:13
>> Yeah.
01:48:14
>> And then I sat down with him, had this
01:48:15
interview, and he said this thing to me
01:48:17
at the end of the interview where he
01:48:18
goes, "Thank you." And I go, "What do
01:48:19
you mean?" He goes, "Thank you. This is
01:48:20
the first time I've done an interview in
01:48:21
my life where the interviewer had like
01:48:23
no preconceptions of me."
01:48:24
>> And he goes, "It meant that I was
01:48:25
relaxed and able to be myself and blah
01:48:27
blah blah blah." And I and I say that
01:48:28
because
01:48:30
my opinion of you is someone who is
01:48:33
really curious about about humanity and
01:48:36
has this interesting idea that is really
01:48:38
expansive for one's mind about what
01:48:40
could have happened. And um again, the
01:48:43
net benefit for me of that is just
01:48:46
expanding my mind in a way that makes me
01:48:49
empathetic to other people.
01:48:50
>> Yeah.
01:48:51
>> Makes me feel like me and you aren't
01:48:53
different.
01:48:54
>> Yeah. like I've met you today but we're
01:48:56
probably you know we we we go back a
01:48:58
long way maybe consciously we're the
01:48:59
same but
01:49:00
>> in our history and our lineage we are
01:49:02
>> we are one of the same and um it also
01:49:05
gives me a huge amount of respect for
01:49:09
other living things including my
01:49:11
ancestors
01:49:12
>> in a way that you kind of think of your
01:49:13
ancestors as these like monkeys that
01:49:15
lived in trees potentially
01:49:16
>> but actually hearing some of these
01:49:17
stories makes me go oh my gosh and
01:49:19
actually it gives me a huge sense of
01:49:20
responsibility
01:49:22
>> to leave this planet and this earth in a
01:49:24
way that it's going to be good for, you
01:49:26
know, the future the future kids that
01:49:28
will live 20,000 years from now in the
01:49:30
future and that will probably look at
01:49:31
our um fossil records and wonder.
01:49:33
>> I I think I think those of us who have a
01:49:35
a platform do have a responsibility
01:49:37
>> very very very definitely. I mean, we're
01:49:40
living in this strange new world. This
01:49:42
this world was inconceivable even in the
01:49:44
beginning of the 1990s.
01:49:46
>> This this this world of communication
01:49:48
that we live in now. And there's no
01:49:49
doubt that that um
01:49:52
this is where influence
01:49:54
can be applied. And and
01:49:57
if that influence is
01:50:00
encouraging all that's good in the human
01:50:02
race, then that's really great and it's
01:50:04
a wonderful thing. And if it's
01:50:06
encouraging all that's dark and negative
01:50:07
and cruel and unkind and vicious in the
01:50:09
human race, because that's also out
01:50:11
there on the internet,
01:50:12
>> then it's not so good.
01:50:14
Graeme, we have a um closing tradition
01:50:16
on the show where the last guest leaves
01:50:18
the question for the next not knowing
01:50:19
who they're leaving it for. And the
01:50:20
question left for you is, is there a
01:50:22
danger of us sleepwalking into
01:50:25
worshiping a machine god?
01:50:29
>> You want me to answer that question?
01:50:31
>> Yes, we're already worshiping a machine
01:50:33
god. As I said earlier in our
01:50:34
discussion, uh in the minds of many,
01:50:38
science has already been elevated to
01:50:40
occupy the space that was once occupied
01:50:43
by religions.
01:50:45
That is a belief in a machine
01:50:47
fundamentally that's taking place there.
01:50:50
Science should be seen as a tool, one
01:50:52
amongst many tools that we as human
01:50:55
beings have at our disposal. It should
01:50:57
never be the only tool and it should
01:51:00
never be woripped. I don't ever want to
01:51:02
hear the words, trust the science.
01:51:06
The words for me are investigate the
01:51:09
science. See whether it's right for you
01:51:11
or not. See what else is available in
01:51:14
the in the in the situation. Don't just
01:51:17
routinely without thought, without
01:51:19
question, trust the science. Don't do
01:51:21
that. That's that's betraying science as
01:51:23
well. One of the fundamental ethics of
01:51:26
science is not to trust the science is
01:51:28
to question
01:51:30
and challenge the science. That's what
01:51:32
we should be doing with the science. And
01:51:34
yes, we are in danger of creating a kind
01:51:37
of
01:51:38
multi-dimensional machine which reaches
01:51:41
into all aspects of human consciousness
01:51:43
and and controls us. Yeah.
01:51:46
We got to stop worshiping science.
01:51:48
That's for sure. We got to put it in its
01:51:51
rightful place as an incredibly valuable
01:51:54
tool which which can do great things for
01:51:57
human beings but which can also do
01:51:58
terrible harm and damage.
01:52:00
>> Because when we trust science, there's
01:52:01
something we stop listening to.
01:52:04
>> Well, when you put your trust in
01:52:06
anything, you better have good reason to
01:52:07
put your trust in it. If I if I'm going
01:52:10
to trust another human being with my
01:52:13
life, I I really want to know that I can
01:52:16
trust that person. And I'm not just
01:52:17
going to say, "Oh, you're a doctor, so I
01:52:19
trust you." No, it's not that's not
01:52:21
enough. I want to know more about that
01:52:23
doctor. And uh in in indeed, I have
01:52:26
pursued that just recently. Science is
01:52:29
great. Science is really useful, but
01:52:31
we're not we're not being what we should
01:52:34
be. We're not living up to the potential
01:52:37
that the universe gave us if we just go
01:52:39
around trusting everything all the time.
01:52:42
We're here to ask questions. That's what
01:52:44
we got these enormous brains for. and
01:52:46
this incredible connectivity is to ask
01:52:49
questions. Anybody who says don't ask
01:52:51
questions is doing a great deal of harm.
01:52:54
>> Well, I hope my audience are very
01:52:55
curious. Um, and I think they must be by
01:52:57
now if they're still hanging around uh
01:52:58
on this platform because we've had lots
01:53:00
of very curious conversations and
01:53:02
hopefully expansive. I this acronym DOA
01:53:05
obviously stands for Draio, but also we
01:53:07
think of it as like
01:53:08
>> being for dreamers and open-minded
01:53:10
people, which is the O, and the A being
01:53:12
about expanding awareness and the C
01:53:13
really being about feeling more
01:53:14
connected.
01:53:15
>> Brilliant. like hearing your story and
01:53:16
about your partner and your journey and
01:53:18
your parents all makes me all, you know,
01:53:20
I think it makes us like spiritually
01:53:23
connected in a way that's increasingly
01:53:24
rare.
01:53:25
>> If people want to learn and read more
01:53:27
from you, Graeme, where do they go? I
01:53:29
mean, you've written so many wonderful
01:53:30
books. You've got another one on the
01:53:31
way.
01:53:32
>> I'll link all of these books you've
01:53:33
written and the others that aren't here
01:53:35
below.
01:53:35
>> Okay. Um, very briefly, the the the book
01:53:39
that put me on the map was Fingerprints
01:53:41
of the Gods.
01:53:42
>> Yeah. And that's the book where I really
01:53:44
investigate begin to investigate the
01:53:46
possibility of a lost civilization.
01:53:48
Before that came the sign and the seal
01:53:50
which was which was about Ethiopia's
01:53:53
claim to possess the lost ark of the
01:53:55
covenant. It happened that as a reporter
01:53:57
in the 1980s I spent a lot of time in
01:53:59
Ethiopia and I came across this
01:54:01
tradition which is fundamental to all
01:54:04
religious life in Ethiopia. uh and and
01:54:07
um ended up writing a book about it that
01:54:10
put me on the track of a lost
01:54:11
civilization led to fingerprints of the
01:54:13
gods. Then after fingerprints of the
01:54:16
gods, there's a book that's not here
01:54:17
which is keeper of genesis that I wrote
01:54:19
with Robert Bval underworld. This was
01:54:23
seven years of scuba diving that Sam and
01:54:25
I did all around the world following up
01:54:27
tips from local fishermen, local divers.
01:54:31
They'd seen something interesting,
01:54:32
something that looked man-made at a
01:54:34
depth of 30 m just offshore there and
01:54:37
they would take us and we would find it.
01:54:39
Uh so underworld is about all those
01:54:41
flooded continental shelves. 27 million
01:54:45
square kilmters of continental shelf
01:54:47
were flooded at the end of the ice age.
01:54:49
That's 27 million square kilmters.
01:54:51
That's Europe and China and a bit more
01:54:53
combined. uh were the best real estate
01:54:56
on Earth uh 20,000 years ago and are all
01:54:59
underwater today
01:55:00
>> and and there's signs that there was
01:55:02
life there.
01:55:02
>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
01:55:04
>> Civilizations there.
01:55:05
>> Yeah. Well, we found very large
01:55:06
structures underwater. Um so that's
01:55:09
that's uh underworld. Then after
01:55:11
underworld I wrote supernatural which is
01:55:13
that one there which has been reissued
01:55:16
in America under the title visionary.
01:55:19
And that's where I went deep into the
01:55:22
shamanistic medicines, the the iawasa,
01:55:26
psilocybin,
01:55:27
and and and the whole notion that cave
01:55:30
art, the art that we see in the painted
01:55:32
caves is an art of visions, that this is
01:55:37
shamans who had entered deeply altered
01:55:40
states of consciousness. They'd
01:55:41
remembered what they'd seen, and when
01:55:43
they came back to the everyday state of
01:55:45
consciousness, they painted their
01:55:46
visions in caves. is the best
01:55:48
explanation for cave arts and why cave
01:55:50
art is so similar all around the world
01:55:52
and so similar to the visions of Iawaska
01:55:55
shamans to this day.
01:55:56
>> Graham, thank you so much for all that
01:55:58
you do. I won't repeat every all the
01:55:59
reasons why, but you've you've blown my
01:56:01
mind open in a way that's just driven
01:56:02
curiosity. And um I think that's maybe
01:56:05
the start of all inquiry is deep
01:56:06
curiosity. And that's what you've done
01:56:07
for not just myself, but the hundreds of
01:56:09
millions of people that have watched you
01:56:10
over the years um all over the world and
01:56:13
I hope long may it continue and good
01:56:14
luck with your heart operation and
01:56:16
hopefully we'll be back again to
01:56:17
continue this conversation soon.
01:56:18
>> Absolutely. Thank you so much.
01:56:20
Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Really
01:56:21
good to meet you.
01:56:21
>> Thank you so much. That was brilliant.
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