00:00:00
If you had to give one relationship ritual to stay in love, what would that be? Once a week, tell your partner three
00:00:06
things that you love about them and three things they could have done better. >> But some people thinking, well, and if I
00:00:11
told Dave that we're going to start writing these notes to each other, he's
00:00:13
going to cringe and not going to do it. [ __ ] Honestly, Dave can't name three things he likes about you. Really,
00:00:19
Dave? Is that a big ask? I absolutely call bull on that. The bigger question is what's uncomfortable about that for
00:00:25
you? And look, I'm not a therapist. I'm a divorce lawyer. I represent some of
00:00:29
the most high achieving minds, athletes, entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad
00:00:33
at this as anybody because there's a part of us that's afraid to poke at what
00:00:37
do you love about me? What am I getting wrong? And it's not just romantic relationships. Like,
00:00:45
my mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer. There was a lot between us that needed
00:00:52
to be said and wasn't said. And there's a part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized
00:01:02
for some things I got wrong. But we don't do that because people just don't
00:01:07
want temporary discomfort. And so I think there's something deeply courageous about love, about commitment,
00:01:14
about saying I'm going to give them the opportunity to hurt me. Like it's scary,
00:01:18
but I'm brave. You know, your marriage will end. It ends in death or divorce.
00:01:22
And for two people at the end of their relationship to say, "This person helped
00:01:26
me become the most authentic version of myself." That's the greatest gift you
00:01:30
could give to another human being. And as you can see from this photo, I just proposed to my fiance. I'd like some
00:01:36
advice on how not to mess this up. Like if my fiance ends up walking into your practice, what is the reason she's
00:01:42
likely to end up there? The number one reason that I'm going to have a woman
00:01:46
sitting across from me, divorcing someone who's a great provider, great protector is
00:01:52
>> that is not obvious to everybody >> and it'll keep me in business for the
00:01:56
rest of my life. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant
00:02:03
subscriber milestone on this show and roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:02:10
whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:02:13
ever done anything for you, given you value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so
00:02:19
much to myself, but also to my team, because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And
00:02:23
it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show
00:02:26
a little bit better every single week. So, that's a favor I would ask you. And
00:02:31
um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down and we'll continue to
00:02:34
find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the
00:02:40
world. And uh yeah, let's do this. James, as you can see from this photo, I just
00:02:50
proposed to my fiance and gladly she said yes. So, I've brought you here in part because I'd like some advice on how
00:02:57
not to mess this up because I know from speaking to you previously about 50% of people that get down on their knee end
00:03:04
up messing it up in some way. Before we get into this though, and before you help me figure out how to stay in love
00:03:08
and not mess it up. >> Yeah. >> Where do you find us at as it relates to
00:03:13
love as a society? If you were to zoom out and diagnose society's relationship
00:03:18
with the subject of love and their um ability to keep it, find it, and understand it, where are we?
00:03:25
>> I think we we're in this really uncomfortable moment as a culture. I
00:03:29
think we we want more than anything to feel real connection. I think we're sick
00:03:35
of just looking at screens. I think we came out of the pandemic with a feeling of, okay, I want to be in the world with
00:03:42
other people and feel the warmth of real people. And yet, we have an increasingly
00:03:51
lower number of useful tools in finding connection and staying connected, which are two totally different skills. And
00:04:01
yet we're yearning for it more than ever. So we're more hungry than we've
00:04:05
ever been and we have no idea how to cook >> in your head because you've seen so many
00:04:11
people go through divorce and relationships fail. >> There must be a sort of checklist of
00:04:16
things that I'm likely to mess up. >> Yeah. I mean, well, you know, first of
00:04:20
all, when I when I knew you, you know, heard you got engaged, >> I was thrilled because I'm always
00:04:26
cheering for people. I really am. I'm always cheering for love. And so I think
00:04:30
in our prior conversations, you're obviously someone who loves very deeply and and the fact that you found this
00:04:36
person, you know, to me is the most lovely thing. You know, I I think at its core, this is your favorite person. I
00:04:44
just can't think of anything more lovely than that. Like the idea that you would
00:04:48
look at a person and go, "You're my favorite person." And and that person
00:04:52
would look at you and say, "You're my favorite person." And that you would
00:04:55
know that it's true. like when they say it that it's true. Like that that feels
00:05:00
to me like something worth pursuing. That feels like something that if I tried to get it and I failed, I'd try
00:05:06
again because if you could find it, it's just about the greatest thing in the
00:05:10
world. Like the the thought to me that, you know, I I I won't get to give a toast at your wedding, but I will say
00:05:16
that if I was going to give the toast, it would be that there are two wishes I have for you. You know, your marriage
00:05:23
will end. I mean, I've said it to you before in one of our first conversations. Every marriage ends. It
00:05:27
ends in death or divorce. I hope yours ends in death. And I hope when it ends in death that let's send you off first
00:05:35
that when you're dying that she will say hopefully to you or to those around,
00:05:43
you helped me become the most authentic version of myself and you're still my
00:05:48
favorite person. Because I can't think of a greater blessing than that. like for two people
00:05:54
at the end of their life, at the end of their relationship to say, "This person
00:05:58
helped me become the most authentic version of myself and they're still my favorite person." That's the greatest
00:06:04
gift you could give to another human being, I think. And I like the idea that even in the face of knowing that this is
00:06:13
risky, this is something that may not work, this is something that statistically the odds are against, but
00:06:20
I'm going to give it a shot because, you know, there's something it adds to my
00:06:24
life and there's something I add to her life and, you know, we're going to we're
00:06:28
going to give it a shot. I don't know. I found that very beautiful. As a divorce
00:06:31
lawyer who is also a very big fan of love, do you ever find yourself trying to get someone not to get a divorce, has
00:06:38
there ever been an instance where you you looked at the situation and thought, you know what, they should just get back
00:06:43
together? Yeah. I what I'll say is my first thought is often, is this person accurately perceiving the
00:06:52
situation that they're in? So people will come in and they'll say, you know,
00:06:56
it really people come to me in very different situations. So sometimes people will come to me and they're
00:07:00
they're they've been served with divorce papers like the marriage is over and now
00:07:04
it's about okay we have to react defensively. So you know when people come to my office the situation is often
00:07:12
so dire and so broken that they're coming in to hire me for that specific purpose. But I will say without question
00:07:20
that if I get any sense that this person would either a benefit from individual therapy that might help them view the
00:07:28
relationship differently and come to the relationship differently. I will not hesitate to refer them. And then there
00:07:35
are people that and it's more common than you'd think that something awful
00:07:42
has happened in the relationship. They had an affair and got caught. they caught their spouse having an affair. Uh
00:07:48
they've lost their job and it created tremendous discord in their relationship. And that often will feel
00:07:54
to me like something that perhaps would benefit from the intervention of mental health professionals or everyone just
00:08:01
taking a breath and taking a minute, especially when there's kids involved, but even when there aren't.
00:08:05
>> Are your clients predominantly men or women? >> It's pretty much an even split really.
00:08:09
>> Yeah. I represent a lot of either very high achieving high- netw worth individuals or people married to them.
00:08:17
>> And are the reasons that they come to you, those two different groups, >> different?
00:08:22
>> Like the reason why they want a separation, is it fundamentally different?
00:08:26
>> So the specific example of cheating, I would say men get caught cheating more
00:08:32
often than women. >> Does that mean they cheat more? >> No, it means they get caught cheating
00:08:36
more. I I don't think that anyone could really truly accurately say, you know, I
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know people love statistics and I know that that, you know, guests have a tendency to come out and say, well, 72%
00:08:48
of people who are everything I'm saying is based on what I've observed in 25
00:08:53
years of facilitating the demise of marriages. Men and women both cheat. Men cheat in just more scattershot stupid
00:09:01
ways than women do. When women cheat, in my experience professionally, it's usually an indication of like the it's
00:09:08
the absolute end of this relationship. The relationship is over and this is either a soft place to land or it's sort
00:09:14
of a final opportunity for this person to solidify, this woman to solidify in her head that yeah, this thing is over.
00:09:20
Whereas men, I I've really had hundreds at this point of men sit across from me
00:09:27
who've been caught in an affair or sense that they're about to get caught in an
00:09:32
affair and they say to me like, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife.
00:09:37
Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to do with that. It just I don't know. I
00:09:41
just I don't know why I did what I did. I just did it." And I I know everyone
00:09:45
kind of wants to because in civilized society it feels good to kind of go like I can't believe that. That's how could
00:09:52
someone say that? But shut up. Like if you have you have potato chips in your cabinet, you know, you you you know that
00:10:00
you're not supposed to eat them. You don't want to eat them. You want vibrant
00:10:03
good health. You want to take care of your but they're there. They're there.
00:10:07
And you're human. And like I can control my food environment better than my brain. Like I have a lot of resolve when
00:10:12
I wake up in the morning. But at about 7 8:00 at night when I'm a little bit
00:10:16
tired and it's been a long day and I deserve something nice, if the potato chips are there, I'm eating the potato
00:10:22
chips. Like, we're human. We're human. There are times where we're just feeling
00:10:27
lonely or hungry or angry or tired or some combination of those factors. and this warm thing like the connection to
00:10:37
another person, the the joy of flirtation, the excitement of of feeling the energy between yourself and whatever
00:10:43
it is type of person that you're attracted to. I think it's very normal.
00:10:48
And then the problem becomes that you're not thinking about the consequences of
00:10:52
those things. If you were thinking about the consequences of those things, you'd
00:10:55
make better choices. But we all know that discipline is trading what you want now for what you want most. And
00:11:01
sometimes it's hard to remember what you want most and to keep it in your line of
00:11:04
sight. >> So from your experience, you know, if my fiance someday ends up walking into your
00:11:08
practice, what is the reason she's likely to end up there from her perspective asking you to help her
00:11:16
get out of the relationship with me? the most obvious, if you're going to be
00:11:21
like the most the average, the statistical average, it would be that you've stopped seeing her and stopped
00:11:26
noticing her in in the list of things that are important to Steven, that she's
00:11:32
somewhere in the middle to bottom of that list. Like for for a high achiever like you, for someone who's
00:11:36
entrepreneurial in the manner that you are, for someone who, you know, lives the kind of lifestyle that you do where
00:11:42
you're on this coast one day and this country another day and flying here on a
00:11:45
moment's notice and getting invitations to interesting things and you have to
00:11:48
triage because you couldn't possibly do all the things that you'd like to do. It
00:11:52
usually would be that she just feels herself slipping in the rankings. And I think that that is often not a function
00:12:02
of what you're like that lifestyle I just described. It's a function of where
00:12:08
you take time to fit her into that. Because I genuinely have found tremendous number of examples of people
00:12:15
who and this is in the relationship work who have that level of intensity in their life and that level of chaos in
00:12:22
their schedule and it's unpredictable but they have that ability every morning
00:12:27
or every afternoon or every once in a while but consistently to say hey I have a minute between recordings. I just
00:12:35
wanted you to know I was thinking of you. Or hey, you know, I heard that song when I was in the car from here to here
00:12:41
and it makes me think of you and I can't wait to see you next week. You know,
00:12:45
something like that to me, like how hard is that? By the way, doesn't have to be
00:12:50
like a global lifestyle. It could even be, hey, we got a couple of kids and two dogs and you know, my my mom is sick and
00:12:57
I got to tend to her so I'm super busy. But how do you let your partner know,
00:13:01
hey, you're still really important. we're still really connected to each
00:13:05
other because that's the number one complaint. That's the number one reason,
00:13:08
particularly with women, that I'm going to have a woman sitting across from me
00:13:12
divorcing someone who's a great provider, great protector, great all of those things.
00:13:17
>> That is not obvious to everybody. And I'll be honest, it's not it wasn't
00:13:21
necessarily obvious to me. The way that I operate naturally, and this is just the way that I am. I've spoken to so
00:13:27
many of my friends to understand how they operate and the way that their brain works is when I'm here.
00:13:32
>> The only thing I'm thinking about is this >> and I almost I'm remarkable at
00:13:37
forgetting everything else >> and and being completely here. >> Now that sounds like a good thing,
00:13:43
>> but it also means that I can lose 14 hours and forget to to check in. I can
00:13:48
forget, you know. >> Is it is it also true when you're with her? Yes. When we have scheduled the
00:13:55
time. >> Good. >> So, you know, when we schedule the time to go and do something together, I'm I'm
00:13:59
there. I'm not on my phone. I'm not doing anything else. >> Good. I think that's a tremendous
00:14:03
priority. I'm hearing more and more from people the feeling of, yeah, we're
00:14:07
together, but we're not together. We're sitting there and they're on their phone
00:14:11
or they're doing other things. And I think that it's really really important
00:14:16
that one of the really important aspects of relationship be that there is time where you give each other that level of
00:14:23
focus. But again, you know, like it's just not something we are necessarily taught. We have maybe we have our
00:14:30
parents as models, but very often they're they're not good models. >> What's interesting here as well is for
00:14:36
some reason I've chosen someone who's like the opposite of me in terms of the
00:14:39
way that I >> partly because she Yeah, probably. And when I've spoken to some of my friends
00:14:43
who are quite like me, they've also chosen partners who are the opposite of them.
00:14:46
>> Could you imagine? I know. >> Could you imagine two of you? Like imagine me with me, you know, you with
00:14:52
you. That would like it would be so intense. But >> this is why it becomes so easy to
00:14:56
misunderstand because we go through life assuming the other person has the same perspective as we do
00:15:02
>> and they feel the same way that we do about things. And >> but what's the solution to that? I've
00:15:08
had to learn to check in. >> Yeah. But don't you think she loves that about you?
00:15:15
>> She does. She actually just sent me a message this morning saying, "Thank you
00:15:17
so much." Because I said when I left this time, I said, "Listen, I'm going to
00:15:19
FaceTime you every day, >> even if it's for just one minute." >> Yeah.
00:15:24
>> So, >> isn't that lovely, though? You're still trying to figure out how can I be better
00:15:28
at this thing? And that's amazing. That's a beautiful thing. You know what's so funny is if I walked into your
00:15:35
home and on the table there was, you know, the power of habit by during or the seven habits of highly effective
00:15:43
people, I would go, "Oh, look at look at Stephen. He's still so successful. He's
00:15:47
still trying to sharpen the point of the spear. Amazing." You know, but if you
00:15:50
walk in and you see a book, you know, how to stay in love, you go, "Things all
00:15:53
right with Stephen? Like things going okay? What's going on with the relationship?" Why? Why don't we as a
00:15:59
society just acknowledge we're we're kind of bad at this? We're kind of bad
00:16:03
at maintaining connection. We're kind of bad at helping like feeling loved and
00:16:07
feeling worthy of love and helping our partner feel loved and figuring out how to maintain connection. And maybe the
00:16:13
key is that little thing, that one minute facetime, that one minute of saying, "Hey, maybe we should try this
00:16:22
other thing." What are you actually saying? What you're actually saying is,
00:16:26
"I want to be good at this job. How can I be good at this job? How can I stay
00:16:32
good at it? How can I get even better at it?" Like, we go for the job interview
00:16:36
and we want this job so bad. Like, that's what dating is. Dating is I'm sending my resume all over the place.
00:16:44
I'm sending it all over the place. I hope I can find something, something that suits my skills and my needs and
00:16:48
where they want me and I'll be well compensated and I'll get something from
00:16:51
it and I'll give something to it because I have all this talent and I have all
00:16:54
this stuff and I want to give it to a worthy cause and I want to be compensated for that and I want to feel
00:16:59
part of something. That's all dating is is it's a job interview and then you get
00:17:03
the job and for a little while you're like I got the job. It's the oh my god
00:17:07
you should see the office is amazing and you should and I could I knew exactly what's going you know there's room for
00:17:12
growth. There's room for growth in this job. It's going to be great, you know,
00:17:15
and I I really feel like there's room for advancement. Like, this could be the
00:17:18
job. This could be my career. This could be my vocation. It could be meaningful and wonderful. I think I have something
00:17:23
I could contribute to. And we're so excited. And you jump ahead 3 years later and we're like, that [ __ ] job.
00:17:29
That job. Yeah. No, I got to go to work again. Like, yep. All right. Here we go.
00:17:33
That's it. You know, I got a friend who just got the best job. Oh my god. They
00:17:37
had their they got the great and that's all we instead of trying to remember
00:17:42
that at some point the relationship that you're in was something you aspired to
00:17:49
like the idea that you were someday going to find a person who just was your favorite person and you were their
00:17:57
favorite person and you were going to be there for each other and see each other's blind spots and help each other
00:18:02
like figure out who you are and be it and that you were going to grow together and change together. And some core
00:18:09
things would stay exactly the same. And some things would change in beautiful, meaningful ways. And you'd see each
00:18:15
other through amazing things and terrible things and all the things that the world throws at you. You'd never be
00:18:20
alone again because you'd have this person like, and somehow it's considered sort of odd to check in
00:18:30
and want to be good at that job and have performance reviews. Like, you run teams. you run so many teams. How how
00:18:37
often do you go, we don't need to have performance reviews? >> I think at the heart of this is we
00:18:42
assume probably through media and social media that relationships are supposed to
00:18:46
be effortless. >> Why? >> I don't just kind of what you see, right? Like I remember I remember um my
00:18:53
girlfriend telling me the other day, she was like, "Oh, there's this couple I
00:18:56
follow on Instagram and they're like amazing. um they're like the perfect
00:19:00
couple and it's just just turned out that the guy is sleeping with someone else.
00:19:04
>> Yeah. And I thought and again I thought well that watch my girlfriend vicariously watching that couple for the
00:19:10
last 5 years has probably increased her expectations on what a relationship should be cuz she's just had this sort
00:19:15
of two dimensional window but there was some the natural mess of relationship was
00:19:20
taking place outside of you and we all just have the 2D window like relationship problems on Instagram
00:19:26
broadcasting that doesn't doesn't drive followership. No. And what what what
00:19:30
I'll also say is look, we formulate a lot of our conception of what a relationship should look like by
00:19:37
portrayals of relationships in film and television, right? Yeah. Okay. So, >> can we agree that the romcom or the
00:19:46
romantic film is basically just an emotional version of pornography? like it's a stylized
00:19:55
excerted falsehood that's designed to amplify the the most visually and emotionally compelling or stimulating
00:20:04
aspects of things like yes there's conflict but it gets cleaned up very neatly and very nicely like there's it's
00:20:11
so this perception that that relationships should be effortless is based I think on largely that which
00:20:18
is this feeling that and again whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends and where you end the story, right? So,
00:20:25
we always end the story in a spot where it's like, "Tada, they're in love and
00:20:28
they walk off hand in hand." But, right, they walk off into life. They walk off
00:20:33
into this ecosystem of life that's filled with complexity and there's factors beyond our control that are
00:20:39
impacting our emotional state, the emotional state of our partner, the you, the me, and the Wii. So, there's a lot
00:20:45
going on and and the thought that, well, this should be effortless. everything else is a lot of work and potentially
00:20:52
and by the way the opposite like this is effortless and this is a drudgery and we tend to just see things
00:21:00
in that binary way unnecessarily like we've made so much progress as a society
00:21:06
when it comes to not viewing everything in a binary like there's there's not as
00:21:10
much rigidity about gender roles anymore there's not as rigidity about you know
00:21:16
are you a worker are you like a career person or a family person like there's a
00:21:20
sense of weight. You can kind of be a little bit of both. Like look at these things as a spectrum a little bit. So,
00:21:26
but this we're still pretty glued into this idea that like relationships are
00:21:30
supposed to be the smoothest, easiest thing or relationships are hard work. You're not supposed to be happy all the
00:21:35
time. And shut up if you think that that's what you oh you're not happy.
00:21:38
Nobody's happy or you're not supposed to be happy. That's not the point of
00:21:40
marriage. The point of marriage is a commitment. >> Are relationships supposed to be simple?
00:21:45
>> I don't know what you mean by simple. Simple to navigate? No, they're
00:21:48
obviously not simple to navigate because 56% of them end in divorce. >> Is it going to be hard?
00:21:53
>> If your definition of hard is I have to pay some level of attention to it, then
00:22:01
yes, it's going to be hard. Is that hard? Like, is that hard? Really? Is that hard? Like, I don't think it's that
00:22:08
hard. Paying attention isn't that hard. Remembering to pay attention might be
00:22:16
hard, but don't you create reminders for yourself? You've got so many gadgets and
00:22:22
you can't have some reminder in the day of like, oh her, keep her in my line of sight.
00:22:29
Again, it doesn't mean you don't love her, that she's not front of mind. It
00:22:32
means you're a driven, hardworking person. I'm a driven, hardworking person. There's tons of times where very
00:22:39
important things in my life aren't front of mind. But that's why I use reminders.
00:22:43
>> So to invert that question that I asked at the top of this, if I am to come to
00:22:47
you at some point in the future, James, and I say, "Listen, I need a divorce."
00:22:52
>> What am I likely to give as the reason for that based on, you know, who I am
00:22:56
and how that correlates to the clients like me that you deal with? >> Yeah. So the reason you're going to give
00:23:01
and the underlying reason is different. So, the the reason you're going to give
00:23:04
is going to be a practical reason, which is either I've met someone else, she's
00:23:08
met someone else, um we've had a terrible fight and uh I've said things that we can't take back. I had a
00:23:16
spectacular failure financially and she's just bailing on me because she sees that the future's really rocky or
00:23:23
she made some terrible decision and did something awful that's a betrayal that I
00:23:28
can't abide by. But again, that's the presenting reason. Underneath that is the bigger reason,
00:23:36
which is we lost the plot. We lost the plot. Like that that's a that's the start of a chapter in a
00:23:43
story. It's the end of a chapter and the start of a chapter. That photo like the
00:23:47
first chapter in that story was was was this person and this person wandering around on the same planet trying to
00:23:56
figure it out, trying to figure out what they're doing. And they have their origin story and they have their you
00:24:01
know their complimentary pathologies that developed over time and then you know they found each other. 8 billion
00:24:09
people in the world and somehow their paths intersected you know and they started to have this connection and so
00:24:17
there was the you and there was the me and then there was the Wii and that ven diagram started right and then you start
00:24:24
to fill it with things you fill it with people. You fill it with experiences. And this is just a stop along the way
00:24:31
like this. These two people, this is just a moment. It's an incredible moment. It can be like kuman. It can be
00:24:38
like a moment that there was this and then everything after this. It's a punctuation mark. Like I like to say
00:24:44
that life has punctuation marks. Like you had a kid, you lost your job, you got a job, whatever. Those are
00:24:51
punctuation marks. This is a big punctuation mark. And it will either be you know the beginning of the end or the
00:24:59
end of the beginning. You get to write that. You get to write that chapter. But this is a moment for me. The reason why
00:25:05
this is a beautiful moment is this is a moment of tremendous optimism. This is a
00:25:11
moment where the two of you said you're my favorite person and and I I want to
00:25:16
write this next chapter with you as as having a different title in it. But really, like the title's just a symbol.
00:25:26
The the ring is just a symbol. It's just a symbol of a commitment. It's a symbol
00:25:31
of of a promise. And all a promises is a symbol of intention. That's all. It's
00:25:37
just an intention. Our intention is we're not going to be alone anymore. We're going to do this together. And by
00:25:41
the way, you're already not alone. The fact that you got to this place that you
00:25:44
would ask this question, that that's a beautiful confirmation of the fact that
00:25:49
you don't feel alone. >> We would have lost the plot. Yeah. Yeah. You would have lost the plot
00:25:54
of the story. I So, this is a story. Where does this story go? Where do you want it to go? You want it to go to a
00:26:00
future that features the two of you old together someday. Maybe it features children. Maybe it features companion
00:26:09
animals. >> And what what is the most likely reason that we would lose the plot?
00:26:12
>> You stop paying attention. >> You stop you stop doing what you're
00:26:16
currently do. How did you get to this beautiful moment? You start doing the opposite. You got to this moment by
00:26:23
paying attention. You got to this moment by making this a priority. You got to this moment by by keeping this front of
00:26:30
mind. By valuing what is this but a symbol of you are valuable to me. Why did you get on one knee? Why do you get
00:26:37
on one knee? I mean, think about the symbols of all of this. We live in a world of symbols. Like the outfit I'm
00:26:44
wearing, I'm saying something to you. I take this seriously. That's why you wear
00:26:49
a suit. is you wear a suit to say I take this seriously. So what why did you do this? What is this as simple? I'm down
00:26:55
on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in front of you. I'm offering something to
00:27:00
you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift I am giving to you. Like there's
00:27:04
something very lovely about that symbol. >> Is this is this what you call slippage?
00:27:09
>> Slippage is exactly when you start to unintentionally again people rarely have
00:27:15
slippage intentionally. It's usually that, okay, we got that knocked out. Now
00:27:22
we can focus on the other stuff. And that's slippage. Slippage is these small
00:27:27
disconnections. Small disconnections that in of themselves mean nothing. Like no single raindrops responsible for the
00:27:36
flood. That little raindrop, it's just a little raindrop. That's all it really
00:27:40
is. But slippage is this gradually increasing number of small disconnections that eventually leads to
00:27:49
the giant marriage killer that you come in and say, "Here's why we're getting
00:27:54
divorced." But it wasn't that. It it was all these little pieces, but at some
00:28:00
point you were there. >> Do you think people spot the slippage in the moment, but
00:28:06
they don't think it's big enough to fight about or do something about? >> 100%. And that's that's the cognitive
00:28:11
bias. That's the fallacy that will keep me in business for the rest of my life
00:28:17
because people just don't want temporary discomfort. Like our desire for joy
00:28:25
versus our aversion to pain, our aversion to pain will win every single time. We know this. That's why there was
00:28:33
an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine crisis. Because one of those things is about making you feel really good and
00:28:39
the other is about getting rid of pain. Like the the human desire any scientist will tell you this ask our friend Andrew
00:28:46
Huberman ask anybody they will tell you the human desire to escape pain is the controlling aspect of self. So escaping
00:28:57
pain even discomfort even dis and again this is this is pushed by the narrative that love should be easy. If you're
00:29:04
going to make if anything's uncomfortable about it, you must be doing it wrong. Maybe you're not with
00:29:08
your soulmate. You know, it would be so easy and effortless. You'd always know
00:29:11
what the other person wanted. You'd never have to tell them. They would know. They would know you well enough to
00:29:15
know what it is that you need. And they would get you. Even though, by the way, really, really like I'm 53 years old.
00:29:23
I've been in therapy for 20 years. I get like 70% of this guy, I think, like at best. Like, and I'm in here. I'm
00:29:33
in here and I get about 70% of this guy. Like, and I'm supposed to get you a
00:29:39
100%. Because we're exchanging bodily fluids. Like, we're I'm supposed to just cuz
00:29:44
we've slept in the same bed, I'm supposed to get you 100% and get ahead of stuff. Like, I get me 70%. And that's
00:29:51
with a lot of reflection. So, I I really think that it's wildly unfair for us to
00:29:58
to to think that, you know, this should be effortless, this should be easy, and that it should never be uncomfortable.
00:30:04
It's okay to be like I I think because of what I do for a living, I have to tell people things they don't want to
00:30:10
hear all day because it's true. And I tell them what they need to hear and not
00:30:15
what they want to hear. And you know, when clients say to me at the end of a consultation or conversation like, "Oh
00:30:20
my god, I feel so much better." better. I always go, "That's great. That wasn't
00:30:23
my intention." Because I don't want anyone I talk to professionally to think
00:30:27
I am telling you something to make you feel better. I'm not here to make you
00:30:30
feel better. I'm not a therapist. I'm here to tell you the truth. And if the
00:30:34
truth makes you feel better, great. If the truth makes you uncomfortable, at least you know the truth now. So, I feel
00:30:41
like in relationship again, if what you want most is lasting lifelong connection
00:30:48
where we get each other as best we can, we can help each other navigate self and
00:30:52
each other as best we can and we cannot lose the plot of a story that is really beautiful right now. So, everybody
00:31:02
listening can probably think about something in their relationship which has gotten a little bit worse
00:31:08
>> since they first got into that relationship. And it could be the way that they argue is getting a little bit
00:31:15
worse. They're not listening as much. >> Maybe the voice the the tone has gone up
00:31:19
or it's getting a little bit more angry. >> Um, whatever it is in their
00:31:22
relationship, what do they need to do now? It's like it's not flooded yet.
00:31:27
>> Yeah. >> But there's >> best time to look at it, best time to
00:31:29
talk about it. There's a puddle. >> So, what I do for a living in court
00:31:34
is I try to manipulate people's emotional state. That's my job. Like, my
00:31:38
job is to go and make the judge like my client, dislike the other side. I want the other side to feel scared. I want my
00:31:43
client to feel safe. I want the court reporter who's taking things down and the court officer to like me and to like
00:31:48
my client so that when we take a break in testimony and they go in the back with the judge, they go, "I like Jim.
00:31:53
He's a really good lawyer." Or, "Oh, his client seems so nice." Or, "Boy, the
00:31:56
other guy seems like a jerk." Or, "Boy, that other lawyer is a jerk." Like so
00:31:59
I'm here manipulating people's emotional state. That's my job. Like that's what a
00:32:03
trial lawyer does. We manipulate people's emotional state. We play with the levers, right? So I say this as to
00:32:10
say we should be doing this in our relationships. There's nothing nefarious about that. These are tools and how you
00:32:18
use them will will give you a sense of whether it's good or bad or what. Look,
00:32:22
if what you are doing is to maintain connection, how you parse it is going to be everything. So, even the way you just
00:32:30
said that, like, well, something's kind of going wrong in the relationship. Okay, we're already off to the wrong
00:32:35
narrative because when someone tells you something's been done wrong, there's
00:32:39
this automatic defensive response of, well, I didn't mean to do it wrong and
00:32:42
well, you know, it's not my fault that I did it wrong. It brings out something
00:32:45
defensive in us rather than saying something's changed. Have you noticed that something changed? Have you noticed
00:32:52
that remember when we used to talk to each other about you know sometimes like and I don't know if it's something that
00:32:56
I've done and if it is you know I I I really would appreciate you telling me
00:33:00
but like when we have been fighting lately like that the tone seems to have changed. Have you noticed that? Is it
00:33:06
just me? I now it's a non-defensive dialogue. I'm not accusing you of something. I'm noting that something has
00:33:14
changed. And by the way, good. We love each look at how much we love each other in that picture. Like look at put the
00:33:22
wedding photos up somewhere. Look at that moment. We were nuts about each other in that moment. We were everything
00:33:29
the other person ever wanted and more. So anytime something has changed from that, don't you want to know? Don't you
00:33:37
want to know? And by the way, not in an accusatory fashion. The most common one is we're not having sex as much as we
00:33:43
used to. We're not having sex. We're not having much sex. I'm not getting as much
00:33:46
oral sex as I used to get. We're not getting Okay, there's a way to say that
00:33:50
the way I just said it. That's just going to blow up in your face. It's not
00:33:53
going to work because it's, well, well, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS MUCH. WELL, I
00:33:56
HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS much cuz I'm working so much and I don't see you
00:33:59
spending less. Well, you know, honestly, if it comes down to that, I'd spend a
00:34:02
lot to not have you treat me this way. Now, we're just having a fight. Whereas,
00:34:06
if we say like, oh, remember how clo remember when we went away? I was just thinking yesterday about when we went
00:34:11
away that weekend. Remember we ended up not even leaving the room? It was so fun. I love when we're like feeling that
00:34:16
connected and close, you know? I feel like I feel like lately sometimes like we're maybe not as connected and close
00:34:21
like and if there's something I'm I'm doing that's making that like I I really
00:34:25
want to get it right. Like I really want to get it right. You know, there's something about
00:34:30
apologizing first, like having some humility in relationship that has tremendous value. Like when a lawyer
00:34:38
like I'll I'll tell you one of my trade secrets. You know, I my job is a very
00:34:42
combative job sometimes. So, there's times where being very aggressive is the
00:34:46
right move. But there's times where being aggressive just doesn't accomplish
00:34:49
anything. And if I'm interacting with a lawyer for the first time, this is someone I haven't had cases with. So, we
00:34:54
don't know each other except by reputation and they come at me really hard, the first thing I'll do is
00:35:00
apologize. I'll say, "You know, I I I'm sorry. I just have to say like your tone
00:35:05
like you're coming at me like it if I said something in our initial interaction that made you feel like that
00:35:12
I didn't have respect for you or that you know I didn't value your perspective
00:35:17
or like it I have a tendency to interrupt people sometimes I have a tendency to so if I offended you I
00:35:21
apologize because the way that you're kind of talking to me like I feel like I
00:35:25
must have said something wrong or I must have so I apologize absolutely if I did
00:35:30
what is the per what choice do they have but to then Oh, no, no, that's that's just my tone.
00:35:35
That's just how I Oh, yeah, of course. Look, hey, we all have a game face or I
00:35:39
just felt like, oh my god, like this guy's coming at me so hard. Like I I felt like I must have said something
00:35:43
inadvertently or, you know, and and then everyone's kind of calmer now, you know?
00:35:48
So I think that this is a very easy way to invite discussion about these small preventative maintenance things without
00:35:57
turning it into a whole like because we again we just think that oh if I bring that up it's going to turn into a whole
00:36:02
thing. It doesn't have to turn into a whole thing period. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think I asked that in part
00:36:07
because I it's something that I I've like subtly noticed that when we were
00:36:12
when we first met 7 years ago, we were much more patient. >> And I'm like, I probably need to have a
00:36:18
conversation about returning to being more patient when we're trying to solve
00:36:22
problems. We kind of like rush through them now. And I just I'm like, oh, you
00:36:25
play this forward. >> You play this forward a decade or two decades. I'm like, damn, we're really
00:36:30
not going to be great at solving problems if we don't just like slow down with them. Yeah. And
00:36:34
>> a lot of that just means like listening to the other person's point of view a
00:36:36
bit bit more intently. >> Yeah. And that's hard. That's hard because you know your your brain moves
00:36:42
quickly. Like it's something I struggle with in relationship for sure. Like any
00:36:46
kind of relationship is I'm very like all right, come on. We got to land this
00:36:48
plane. Like let's go. Like skip to the end. Time is money. Like what are we what are we doing? Where are we going
00:36:52
with this? Like and I I'm terrible at it. I interrupt people constantly. Like
00:36:56
I'm I'm not good at that. And it's something I'm working on because I I I
00:37:02
think I know what they have to say next. And I'm wrong a lot of the time, especially in relationship, I'm wrong.
00:37:08
Like it's not a popular opinion to say that men and women are different, but
00:37:12
men and women are different. And and and I don't say that to say one is superior
00:37:16
and one is inferior. I say that to say that we're different. We we navigate things differently. We experience life
00:37:24
differently. We're treated differently from a societal standpoint. We've had
00:37:28
different life experiences and I genuinely believe that it would be very valuable for us in relationship to to
00:37:37
sort of think, hey, I don't really know everything about how this person is wired. It took me fully
00:37:45
40 some odd years, if not 50, to figure out that if I'm in a romantic relationship with a woman and she comes
00:37:53
home and starts telling me about something that's upsetting to her, that she doesn't want what my male friends
00:37:59
want. Like if I called a buddy of mine, if I called you, I've called you before.
00:38:02
If I called you and I said, "Stephen, I'm having this problem, man. I'm
00:38:05
dealing with one of my sons and he's doing XYZ." I ex if you went, "That must
00:38:10
be very hard, Jim. I'd be like, "Yes, it is, Stephen. That's why I called you. Do
00:38:15
you have any suggestions? Like, what do you think I should do here? Like, you're
00:38:18
a smart guy. I called you cuz I wanted you to help me." Very often, that is the
00:38:22
opposite. Most women want you to hear them. Give them some support. You guys can have this conversation. A couple can
00:38:32
have this conversation. You can say, "Hey, listen. right now in this moment,
00:38:38
we're not you're not coming to me with a problem. But when you come to me with a
00:38:42
problem, my natural proclivity is to start throwing solutions. And I've I've
00:38:46
learned or I I heard Stexton say on Steven's show that, you know, maybe that's not the best way. Do you find
00:38:53
that's true? Like, do you want me to maybe like when you say these things, could I because again, this is a job. I
00:38:58
want to be good at this job. Why Why is it wrong for me to ask you how to how can I be better at this job? I found it
00:39:05
really useful to state explicitly to my fiance what my needs are in those situations. And again, it didn't come
00:39:12
naturally to her and vice versa. Like it didn't what she needs from me in those
00:39:16
situations is the opposite of what I need from her in those situations. I'm thinking
00:39:20
particularly when she's like going through something and she's struggling
00:39:22
with something. She wants me to be be present and she um often wants like some advice on it
00:39:34
and she and her advice is like the opposite of mine often and in the inverse when I'm
00:39:42
going through those situations I actually don't want to talk about it at all.
00:39:49
>> Yeah. >> I just wanted to be there. >> Yeah. Yeah. But please,
00:39:52
>> she wants to talk about I don't want to talk about it. >> But what but what would be wrong with
00:39:57
saying in that moment? I've got a menu. I've got a menu for you. Can you tell me
00:40:06
which one you want? Cuz just like just like you said, you're hungry. And I said, "What are you hungry for? Do you
00:40:11
want sushi? Do you want me to make you something? Do you want some cheese toast? Do you want us to go out
00:40:17
someplace and we can get burgers? What is it you want?" Right? Couldn't you
00:40:21
just say, "Hey, I've got a menu. I can just listen and tell you I love you and
00:40:26
just be here. I can give you some solutions and and how I might handle the problem. I can try to distract you and
00:40:36
tell you a funny story about something that happened to me today or I can pick you up and tickle you. We can go in the
00:40:41
other room and roll around in the sheets for a little while and take your mind off it and then we can figure out which
00:40:45
of the other options you might want. We can go for a walk together and we can talk about it or not talk about it. What
00:40:51
would you like on the menu? Because that's I'm serving all of those things
00:40:54
for you. Which one would you like? And the worst thing she could say is, "I
00:40:59
don't know." And you go, "Okay, then I'm going to pick one. I'm going to pick
00:41:03
one. And if it feels good, great. And if it doesn't, you'll tell me, okay? And I
00:41:07
won't be offended." Like again, what' that take, Stephen? 30 seconds. 30
00:41:12
seconds. Throw that out there. Like that. That's instead of just blindly throwing darts at the target, not
00:41:19
knowing where the target is. >> If you had to give everybody listening one relationship ritual that you would
00:41:27
think would most increase the probability that they stay together, stay in love.
00:41:32
>> What would that relationship ritual be? >> I think that once a week you should make
00:41:38
a specific task of telling your partner three things that you really like about them.
00:41:45
And every week it should be something different. I think you should tell your partner if you really want to want to
00:41:50
take the advanced edition of this. If you want to turn it from a 30- secondond task into like a whole five minutes that
00:41:55
you devote to your relationship, you know, I feel about relationship maintenance the way that if you've ever
00:42:00
heard the story, I think the Daly Lama is the one credited with saying it. That's that a high high-end executive,
00:42:05
you know, paid a colossal amount of money to have a private audience with the Daly Lama. And the Daly Lama said to
00:42:10
him, you know, um, if you're searching for inner peace, you should meditate for
00:42:14
15 minutes a day. And the executive said, I don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate. He said, then you should
00:42:19
meditate for an hour a day. I feel the same way. If you don't have five minutes
00:42:24
a week to devote to your spouse or partner, then you're going to need hours. I think you should actually set
00:42:30
aside hours. Like five minutes a week, I would suggest the following exact s just
00:42:35
systematic basic thing. This is what my next book is about. out. It's about a
00:42:39
systematic approach to being good at love. And the idea is once a week, I think here's the advanced
00:42:46
version, but minimum just write down, send an email, send a text, whatever it is, tell your partner three things that
00:42:54
you love about them. The advanced version is tell your partner three things you love about
00:43:00
them. Tell them three times this week that they made you feel loved. Here's three things you did this week that made
00:43:06
me feel loved. Like here's three. When you sent me that message and said that
00:43:10
made me feel so soft, that made me feel very loved. Like whatever it is, I'm
00:43:13
sure you could find off the top of your head three things that she did this week
00:43:16
that made you feel loved. And it's only Monday. >> People at home are in relationships
00:43:21
right now. They're hearing you say that and some of them are still not going to
00:43:25
do it. Why do you think they're not going to do it? Like what is that mental
00:43:29
conversation they're having where they go? >> I think we're I Well, I think we're I
00:43:32
think they think it's pointless. I think they they might be at a point in their
00:43:36
relationship where it feels like what would be the point we're so far gone it
00:43:39
wouldn't help. I think more than anything my my real feeling on this the secret that I don't think people want to
00:43:48
say out loud I think we're terrified. I think we're terrified. And I think what we're
00:43:54
terrified of is not is not the future of our relationship. I think what we're terrified of is that we
00:44:02
we feel like we're not worthy of love. I think it's most people's fundamental
00:44:06
terror. I think most people's fundamental fear is that if you knew me, you wouldn't love me. If you could see
00:44:14
me, the real me, like the me that's in here, all the weakness, all the fear,
00:44:22
all the horrible selfish thoughts, all the perversity, all the all the darkest things that are inside of me and every
00:44:31
single one of us that if you could if you saw that, you couldn't possibly love
00:44:36
me. and the feeling that comes with that which is so you love the character I'm playing
00:44:47
that's not showing you all those things. I'm just I'm just showing you the best
00:44:51
parts of myself. If you saw the real me, you wouldn't really love me. I think our
00:44:56
greatest fear is that we're not worthy of love. And I think that there's a part
00:45:00
of us that's afraid to like poke at what do you love about me? What do I love
00:45:07
about you? How how what am I getting wrong? Like again, like finishing that exercise,
00:45:15
you know, here's some things. Here's three things I love about you. Here's
00:45:19
three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Here's three things I
00:45:25
could have done better. Or tell me three things I could have done better. Or tell
00:45:29
your partner three things they could have done better. And then if you want to have a fun one thrown in there, cuz I
00:45:33
think you should end on fun stuff, here's three things you did this week that made me want to have sex with you.
00:45:38
>> I guess some people would are listening right now and they're thinking, well, you know, I'm I'm dating
00:45:43
Barry or they think I'm dating Joanne and she is she is not verbally intimate
00:45:49
in this way. She would, if I suggested this to her, >> write it down. Don't do it. You don't
00:45:53
have to do it verbally. I think verbally is too much pressure on people. But but
00:45:56
even written down, if I told Dave that we're going to start writing these notes
00:45:59
to each other about three things I love, he's going to cringe and he's >> [ __ ] [ __ ] Honestly, really,
00:46:05
that's that's too hard. It's too much of an ask. Like Dave, I don't care what
00:46:09
Dave does for a living. Dave could be a ditch digger for a living who's not articulate in any way. Dave is moving in
00:46:15
with you. Dave married you. Dave went out and put his money on the counter and bought a ring. Dave Dave can't name
00:46:22
three things he likes about you. Really, Dave? Is that a big ask? Is that hard, Dave? Like, come on. That I absolutely
00:46:29
call [ __ ] on that. Maybe he doesn't want to. Okay, that's a different conversation. Why don't you want to?
00:46:34
Why? What's uncomfortable about that for you? >> It is uncomfortable for some people,
00:46:38
isn't it? >> Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some people. >> It's quite interesting that you could be
00:46:41
in a loving relationship with someone, but also be at some deeper level scared of intimacy. And I'll be honest, because
00:46:49
it's just me and you, nobody's listening. >> Sure. Of course. >> I think at some client privilege.
00:46:53
>> Yeah. I think at some level I've always been scared of intimacy. It makes it
00:46:58
sound more conscious than it is, >> but at some deeper level I've always
00:47:02
been, I don't know, a bit disconnected intimately when it comes to like uh being able to articulate
00:47:11
>> these things. We keep it simple. That that's why I want to keep that simple. I
00:47:16
didn't say what is what is your love for me rooted in and what is the nature of
00:47:22
our connection and how does it fit into the broader context like I had a very challenging relationship with my mother
00:47:27
growing up and I feel like you fill some of the wounds that guys we don't need
00:47:32
like Sigman Freud doesn't have to show up in the relationship what are three we could do it right now
00:47:38
in this relationship what are three things I like about you what are three experiences you and I have had with each
00:47:45
other that made each other laugh. Like we have a friendship. Like what a joy that is by the way. Like what a joy it
00:47:52
is to sit across from someone and say, "You know what I like about you?" [ __ ]
00:47:56
man. I I want to hear that list. Like that's lovely. >> Do you think the whole idea of people
00:48:01
being avoidant and sort of anxious? You know, this attachment style and stuff. Do is that does that stuff track to what
00:48:07
you've seen? It does. But you know, I I also think too like I don't understand
00:48:11
why we treat our connections to other people differently than things we are like exercise. Exercise. Okay. Haven't
00:48:21
been to the gym in a while. You go to the gym, you're going to be sore. You're
00:48:25
not going to be able to lift a lot. You're going to have to start slow. And for a couple days, you're going to be
00:48:30
sore. And if you go, oo, I that was I was very sore after that. I'm not going
00:48:34
back to the gym. Okay. then you're never going to get fit and you're never going
00:48:38
to get past the sore stage. Cuz if you go, I'll wait a month and then I'll go
00:48:41
back and do the same thing again. Guess what? You're just going to You have to
00:48:44
move through the uncomfortable part to get to the part where it starts to feel really good and you're not as sore.
00:48:50
Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore. You pushed it a little too hard. Maybe
00:48:52
worked out with Huberman that week. But you know what? Other weeks like you go, "Hey, I don't feel sore. I just feel
00:48:57
strong and healthy." So, there's going to be moments where this might feel a
00:49:00
little weird. It might feel a little awkward. It might feel a little sore. There might be weeks where that kind of
00:49:04
a simple little practice feels a little like, oh, it feels a little uncomfortable. Or, yeah, the list of
00:49:10
things that you did this week that made me feel loved, I have to reach for it. Okay, great. Isn't that little
00:49:16
uncomfortable conversation that might prevent slippage? Isn't that little conversation better than the long-term
00:49:26
impact of having a distance start growing between the two of you that eventually becomes impossible to
00:49:32
navigate because it becomes a chasm between the two of you? >> Do you think the attachment style theory
00:49:40
has any truth to it from what you've seen? Do you tend to find people are, you know, there's some people that are
00:49:45
avoidant of intimacy, there's some people that are anxious, there's some
00:49:47
people in the middle. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I I think that we're all creatures of our our upbringing, and
00:49:54
I think a lot of our I'm amazed as a 53-year-old man in therapy how often a lot of my challenges are rooted in
00:50:03
seven-year-old Jim. >> As a man that talks so much about love, I'm I'm curious to know what it is that
00:50:08
you still struggle with in terms of, you know, because I I mean, I know from my own experience that I can know every I
00:50:13
can know so much. I sit here with experts all day every day. It's not like I don't know this stuff. Yeah.
00:50:18
>> But then putting it into practice is a different task. >> Yeah. I mean, it's why you'll never hear
00:50:22
me use myself in my relationships as an example because I think you can be, you know, an incredibly skilled person at at
00:50:31
the theory of something and then in its practical application, you have your own
00:50:35
unique challenges. I think that using yourself as the example and your relationships as an example is dangerous
00:50:44
because I I learned it in my own professional life when I had a very friendly divorce. And so my experience
00:50:50
of divorce is the unique function of the constitution of my ex-wife and of me and
00:50:55
of our unique circumstances that brought us where we are. So if I use that as the
00:50:59
basis for my analysis of things, I think it's a very shallow sample size. I I
00:51:04
know for me my greatest challenge in every relationship I've ever had, but even in
00:51:12
my my professional relationships is acknowledging when I need help. I I think because I was raised in an
00:51:21
environment where a lot of my needs weren't met. My father was a very serious alcoholic. My mother was trying
00:51:29
to tend to a very serious alcoholic. when I needed something even from a very young age I I felt a lot of shame
00:51:37
because it wasn't met with you know I'm hungry for breakfast like of course let
00:51:42
me make you some breakfast it was met with what you can't make your own breakfast what's wrong with you and I
00:51:49
it was this guy yeah that was me that was me Bruce Lee poster and my was Chuck Norris up there um yeah this is probably
00:51:58
like nine nine years old Okinawa and Goju Ryu karate. This is my room. Yeah, I was
00:52:05
very um very lonely. I was really lonely. I was really sad. And um I loved martial arts because there
00:52:16
was this very clear kind of masculinity on display, like this protective, strong
00:52:26
superpower that you could build. >> It wasn't just gifted to you. like you
00:52:31
didn't win the genetic lottery. Like you could through discipline and practice
00:52:37
you could have this superpower that would make you feel safe and and that was what I obsessed about having.
00:52:45
There's still a lot of that that person that young man still in me that is afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be
00:52:54
someone who I could do do it all for myself. And I I I wish I could say looking back
00:53:00
that it was because that was my natural proclivity is to want to be very self-actualized, but it really was that
00:53:05
I was just absolutely sad and terrified that if I asked I'd be shamed if I said
00:53:11
like could you be nice to me that the answer would be no. So I learned how to do everything like I
00:53:24
cook amazingly well. like I'm good at a lot of things. I'm good at most things.
00:53:29
Almost anything I put my mind to I'm good at. But it took me a lot of years to figure out that that although that
00:53:38
has served me really well and it's built my career and the security and safety
00:53:44
that came with being so successful and having financial success and you know now some level of notoriety.
00:53:52
It took me a long time to figure out that that also has been the greatest obstacle in my life. And I it it I'm
00:53:58
learning at the age of 53 that this guy is like he's still there and talking to
00:54:07
me all the time. And I've learned now again through my own therapy to say to
00:54:12
him like, "Oh, I hear you. Like, I hear you. I'm glad you're still there. Like,
00:54:18
you don't have to be so scared anymore. I'm not I'm grateful to him.
00:54:29
I think that's the best thing to aspire to is to make peace with that. Like I'm
00:54:34
sure in you there is some little boy like hiding in some part of his room feeling very lost and very lonely. And I
00:54:47
don't think there's anything wrong or weak or not masculine or not strong
00:54:53
about acknowledging that that's still a voice in your head. And acknowledging that that voice in
00:55:00
your head, like it it brought you where you are, but it also held you back in some ways. And you're never going to get
00:55:07
rid of it. But maybe what you'll do is hear it for what it is, which is is it's
00:55:12
a voice that was once there really important to save you. and it did a really good job of that. But that it's
00:55:19
okay. Like it's okay. You don't have to beat that out of you, but you don't have
00:55:23
to listen to it either. You don't have to let it drive the car. >> I was thinking as you were speaking
00:55:27
about how those of us that Do you want me to take this foot back? >> Oh, but it's great. It's fun to see that
00:55:34
guy. I It's funny that you you pulled that out. I have to tell you, I I It's a
00:55:39
lovely It's a lovely thing. I think there's something to learn from those versions of oursel.
00:55:48
Like if you hang out with kids, you you just see like >> they don't have all that hate in their
00:55:56
heart. They hate naps. It's the end of the list. Like everything else like they
00:56:01
just want to like love each other and hug each other and play. And when they like think they hurt someone, they stop
00:56:08
and they're very scared cuz they didn't mean to. And then we turn into these
00:56:12
creatures that are just attacking each other all the time, you know? And I think at the end of the day, like all we
00:56:18
want is that. Like all we want is to just be like that warm, open version of ourselves before the world beat the [ __ ]
00:56:26
out of us. And maybe that's what love's supposed to be. Like maybe what love is
00:56:31
is an opportunity for us to like reconnect to that part of ourselves that was just so simple. Like I just want you
00:56:39
to love me. I want to be loved by you. I want you to feel worthy of my love. I want to feel worthy of yours. Like, why
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No credit card or payment required. I was thinking about how um there's a lot of people that at a very early age
00:58:48
had to be very independent for whatever reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around.
00:58:51
Maybe in your case, you know, I've heard, you know, doing this podcast, you get a bit of pattern recognition where
00:58:56
you you sometimes think, oh, okay, so if one of the parents was an alcoholic, >> adult children of alcoholics were were I
00:59:03
remember reading the book recovery, adult children of alcoholics, I stumbled on it when I was in college in a
00:59:08
bookstore and I remember reading it and going, have they been reading my diary? Like what the holy because there was
00:59:15
this profile of like one of the types one of the archetypes of adult children of alcoholics is that you yeah control
00:59:23
control like wanting to control everything because life feels so chaotic when you
00:59:30
live with an alcoholic. When the person who is supposed to be your primary caregiver and the primary mechanism for
00:59:37
you to feel safe feels unpredictable and chaotic and that is that creates in you
00:59:43
this constant sense of a heightened you know heightened sense of I need to hold on as tight as I can and also that drove
00:59:51
you to be incredibly independent. >> Yeah. Independence and connection seem to be
00:59:58
on like two ends of the spectrum. And I say this in part because I look at >> I look at all my friends that are very
01:00:04
very very independent and I would say that they typically struggle the most to form relationships because they've kind
01:00:10
of built their own >> castle with a moat. >> Yeah. And generally if we zoom out on this
01:00:14
point of independence and dependency >> I would say that the narrative in society over the last I know 10 20 years
01:00:20
or whatever has been >> pointed at glorifying independence and not dependency. Dependency is like not
01:00:27
cool. It's like be your own boss start your own business down on your own two
01:00:30
feet. >> Yeah. Yeah. I so I used to view I would say the defining characteristics
01:00:36
of my 30s and 40s was the belief that there were two versions of Jim Sexton. One was the one that was the most
01:00:49
forward- facing at that time which was lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibility. Like I'm I'm I'm going to
01:00:54
do this job. I'm going to do it really well. I'm going to get better and better
01:00:58
at it. I'm going to just take my skill set and weaponize it and that's who I'm
01:01:03
going to be. And then there was this other part of me that was always there. I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a
01:01:09
while that like gets misty eyed when I talk about love and cries when I think about dogs and, you know, watches Love
01:01:17
on the Spectrum and can't make it through an episode without weeping three or four times. Like this very soft,
01:01:23
gentle, loving, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive part of me. And I felt like they were two waring forces.
01:01:32
There were two versions of me. And the question was, how can I beat that soft little, you know, wuss out of me and be
01:01:42
the final form, which is like the me that's a machine that can just do it like that can just do what needs to be
01:01:50
done and do it in a way that nobody else can do. And I'm very blessed that I am
01:01:54
in my line of work. what yoyo ma is in cello like in a courtroom I have a god-given talent and I remember
01:02:04
thinking okay that's the final form of me is a master in the courtroom and and
01:02:10
everything else is just what do I need to do to get there I remember my ex-wife saying to me you know you will never
01:02:17
love any woman as much as you love the law like every woman who you ever meet for the rest of your life will be
01:02:25
playing second fiddle to how much you love being in a courtroom. You're great
01:02:29
in a courtroom and you have no idea what to do in your living room. Like in your
01:02:34
living room, you're just totally paralyzed. Whereas in a courtroom, you know every it has why it has defined
01:02:43
rules. It has a cadence. I know what the goal is. Like I know exact it's controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So
01:02:51
there was a part of me that went, okay, there's this soft, warm, wonderful, lovely, empathetic side of me, and then
01:02:59
there's this real successful, and that's the one that got me everywhere. That's
01:03:03
the one that got me everything I have. So I have to figure out how to get rid of this one and keep this one. Like,
01:03:11
and for my entire 30s and most of my 40s, that was my primary thing was trying to figure out how to get rid of
01:03:17
that part of me. And no matter how loudly I blared 9-in nails on on on on my headphones and tried to become a
01:03:25
machine, I couldn't get rid of that part of me. And then I came to realize, I
01:03:31
think in part because of this work. I think because of like somehow I stumbled into
01:03:38
being in a position where I end up talking about feelings a whole lot. And it's somehow I I I got brought in to
01:03:45
have go here's this interesting divorce lawyer who's going to talk about divorce
01:03:48
stuff and somehow ended up talking a lot about love and softness and warmth and compassion.
01:03:54
>> I didn't think it somehow >> Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to
01:03:58
learn from that from from giving that voice is that there actually isn't two waring
01:04:04
forces. It's two very authentic aspects of self that have to exist inside of me.
01:04:11
And each one of them creates the other in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be
01:04:15
anywhere near as good of a lawyer and courtroom advocate if I didn't have a tremendous sensitivity and empathy and
01:04:23
couldn't put myself in the heads of the various people in the room. So I think
01:04:27
that when we start to see what seems like opposite traits in us instead as authentic representations of aspects of
01:04:34
who we are that we have to learn how to do let them dance, let them move together in some way. And there's times
01:04:42
where this guy should take the lead. And there's times where that very focused
01:04:48
self that you know is very missiondriven, that person should lead. And and for men in particular, like
01:04:55
we've been taught a rigidity. Like the gender role for men has a tremendous rigidity. I mean, I grew up in a time
01:05:02
where you either got to be Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were your two choices. You either had to be,
01:05:08
you know, like icy 100% or you had to be, you know, you could be warm and fuzzy, but then you were just not really
01:05:14
masculine. And I just don't think that's the case. Like you look at like I've
01:05:19
spent 20 years on the Brazilian jiu-jitsu mat. I have to tell you like there are some dudes could snap your
01:05:24
neck with like any with their thumb and they're some of the warmest most lovely
01:05:30
people because these are all authentic aspects of self. And to know that like the soft warm version of me feeding it,
01:05:38
letting it spend some time letting it be in conversation, it it makes me better at the other part. It makes me more
01:05:46
authentic. It makes me better at that part. And by the way, letting that part out, it hasn't done anything to diminish
01:05:54
this part. So when you start to see it that way, I I really think that there's
01:05:58
a tremendous broader menu of possibilities out there. I've got several friends in my life that
01:06:06
have really struggled with relationships and love. And uh for all those people that have really really struggled in
01:06:13
love and they look around at everybody else and everybody else seems to have worked it out or at least be working
01:06:19
through a situation but they look at themselves and go, "It just doesn't work
01:06:22
for me. What's going on? Why am I the only one in my friendship group that hasn't found love or isn't in a
01:06:28
relationship?" And they kind of beat themselves up about it. I think that's a
01:06:31
great starting point. Why is this happening to me? and start looking at when did it start happening and what's
01:06:40
the consistent thread through all of it and are there people that I could ask that question of who know me and love me
01:06:46
and would be willing to tell me honestly and if there aren't great what are some
01:06:49
resources out there in terms of the wisdom of other people that might share that experience I think there's so many
01:06:56
entry points to that conversation with yourself I think the start is to identify that yeah I'm drowning like
01:07:03
what here's what the solution is not is to pretend everything's fine. And that's
01:07:09
the ecosystem we've created. We're we're living our gag reel and watching everyone's greatest hits. And
01:07:16
we're encouraged all day long to tell everyone how great we're doing and how
01:07:21
we're crushing it and how great we feel and how focused we are. Because why?
01:07:25
Because we're terrified that if we said, "I don't know. I feel like I'm drowning.
01:07:29
I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. I have moments where I feel so put together and then I have moments where I
01:07:34
think I'm drowning. And and by the way, when people have that kind of honesty,
01:07:40
there's something so beautiful about it. Like I have to tell you, like one of the
01:07:45
things that people say about me when I go, I don't understand why anything I'm
01:07:50
saying resonates with anybody. People are like, "Dude, you're so real. It's so
01:07:53
real. It's so blunt and honest and like real." This is it's in every one of us
01:07:58
is that same realness, that same basic just all it is is just saying out loud like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
01:08:05
Like, I don't have it all figured out." AND THAT'S OKAY CUZ I HAVE SOME THINGS
01:08:09
really figured out. So maybe if I've got these things really figured out and
01:08:14
you've got these other things really figured out and we're just stop bullshitting each other for five minutes
01:08:20
and instead go, you know, I'm doing great on this, but like this I feel like
01:08:24
I'm a train wreck on. Like every high achieving friend I have, every celebrity
01:08:29
friend I have, every per I have friends who people look at them and go, "Oh,
01:08:33
dude, he is murdering it." Like you're my friend. People look at you, they go,
01:08:38
"He's murdering it." There are aspects of your life that you're like, "I got to
01:08:41
work on that." There's tons of aspects of my life where I go, I got to work on
01:08:45
that. Like I I figured all these other things out, but I haven't figured that
01:08:49
out yet. And you know what? It's so lovely to have that conversation. Like why why can't we just make some space
01:08:57
for that all of us a little bit more? I don't think it's that hard. It's at least as important as our
01:09:04
workout routine. It's at least as important as remembering someone's birthday.
01:09:08
>> Yeah. I I I wonder why that I wonder why it is that we um there's so little space
01:09:14
for us to work on our connection challenges these days. >> It hasn't been prioritized. We become
01:09:20
what we behold. We prioritize what we've been told to prioritize. We've been told
01:09:25
to prioritize conspicuous consumption. >> We've been taught that the measure of a
01:09:30
person is is how much financial success they have. That's why I genuinely believe that if we continue to barrel
01:09:36
along using this the metric of success being financial above all else really consumption, what we own, what we wear,
01:09:47
what we have or how we look, right? as the priority, we're barreling towards
01:09:53
nothing. Whereas if we were to change that and say, hey, like joy, peace, finding some peace within ourselves,
01:10:02
finding some balance that feels right to us individually. >> I think that's a really good simple word
01:10:09
which people don't think about enough when they're thinking about the KPIs of
01:10:12
success in their life, which is how do I feel? And I think we've all grown up in
01:10:17
different contexts learning to tune out of how I feel and in its place put how does the world feel about me as like the
01:10:25
primary metric. And it's like I I was thinking the other day that actually, you know, we can go do all these
01:10:30
podcasts and books and whatever else, but we were all born with this sort of internal compass that tells you every
01:10:36
day how you feel, but like none of us tune into it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And actually the metric
01:10:40
becomes like how many followers do you have? How rich are you? How >> it's beaten out of us by the world. Like
01:10:46
I I I will tell you, you always get the most emotional stuff out of me, Stephen.
01:10:51
I will tell you my most shameful moment as a parent. So I have two sons. They're 26 and 28.
01:10:58
28-year-old just got married in September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome. He must have been five or six.
01:11:08
and something happened like and he was he started crying like someone hurt his feelings or something
01:11:15
happened but it wasn't I don't know it wasn't that big of a deal like it it to
01:11:20
me at the moment I mean I was in my 20s he was 24 when I I was 24 when he was born so yeah I was in my 20s and he was
01:11:28
crying he was crying and like I wanted him to stop crying because it made me sad to see him cry like I love him so
01:11:35
much like that I was like it made me so uncomfortable able to see him crying. And I remember I like I like grabbed
01:11:42
him, not roughly, I grabbed him and I just looked at him and I was like, "Control yourself." I'm like, "Control
01:11:47
yourself." I'm like, "Calm down and control yourself." And I remember like he he managed to do
01:11:55
it. It's 20some years later. Like, and I I'm ashamed of that moment. because I understand what I was trying
01:12:10
to say to him. Like I was trying to say to him, I I don't want you to be in pain. Like I'm uncomfortable with your
01:12:17
pain. I also wanted I wanted to say something to this guy probably which is like dude like the world's not going to
01:12:24
be nice to you if it knows that you have all these feelings. Like you got to find
01:12:27
a way to hide it. There's so much going on in that moment. But like I look back
01:12:32
on that moment and I just think like no like that was the wrong thing to do. Like it was the wrong thing to do. Like
01:12:40
I don't think we should be telling people not just boys like boys particularly maybe. But I don't think we
01:12:47
should be telling people like control yourself. Like stop feeling so much. Like I think I think
01:12:54
I think there's a difference between trying to like get people to control their feelings and not letting like
01:13:02
everything be governed by the transient feelings that you have from moment to moment. And I I think it's a harder more
01:13:09
subtle message. But like I think fe if we lead with the feelings, if we lean into the feelings first, if we identify
01:13:16
the feelings first, if we figure out what it is we want to feel, we want the other person to feel to bring it back to
01:13:22
marriage to bring it back to connection that what were the questions I was asking earlier that that exercise. When
01:13:29
did I make you feel loved this week? Here's some things you did that made me
01:13:33
feel loved this week. Here's some things that made me feel desire towards you
01:13:38
this week. Here's some things you did this week that made me feel less than loved by you or that made me feel less
01:13:44
connected to you. Like what? Maybe we just need to help each other learn how to identify our feelings and feel
01:13:53
our feelings. Like maybe we need more Mr. Rogers and less, you know, intense self-help. Like maybe we just need more
01:14:02
help not trying to control our feelings, but just figure out what they are and feel them. I think, you know, a lot of
01:14:08
us are distracting ourselves as a way to avoid feeling anything because even I was thinking about like a practical way
01:14:14
for you to get back in touch with actually how you're feeling. Yeah. >> And every solution I came up with was
01:14:19
like interrupted by doom. >> Well, the best definition of addiction I've ever heard was from a therapist
01:14:23
Dave Klugman >> who said to me, um, addiction is anything you do to get away from feeling
01:14:29
what you would would have felt if you'd done nothing at all. And I've always
01:14:34
said to people, work is my favorite narcotic. Like if you look at the most productive
01:14:39
times in my life, they were almost always when something awful was happening in my personal life. Either I
01:14:44
was getting divorced, my mother was dying, some some painful thing was happening. So I took tremendous comfort
01:14:52
in feeling in control and competent, which is how I feel at work. So the the more I'm working is usually a gauge of
01:15:00
of where there are aspects of my life that I don't want to feel certain things. And again, that's why I think
01:15:06
that the the best question to ask at the start of therapy, the only question really, is what is it I'm afraid to
01:15:12
feel? I think because we're closing off on this section where we were talking about
01:15:18
people who have struggled in love, it is probably worth just closing the section
01:15:22
by giving them a why as to like the the reason why they should take love seriously and stop distracting
01:15:35
themselves and stop avoiding it and stop avoiding going to therapy, >> brushing it under the carpet.
01:15:42
like what what is what is the why there? Why should they take love seriously? Because they could continue to, you
01:15:47
know, bomb on for the next 10, 20 years and become >> really professionally accomplished.
01:15:52
>> Mhm. >> And, you know, get rich, nice house, nice holidays. >> Yeah. Those are all great things. Those
01:15:59
are all worthy pursuits. I think when you look back on your life, whatever stage of your life you're in,
01:16:10
most people will recall a moment where they felt loved or where they felt tremendous love
01:16:18
as the highest points of their life. I I think even celebrity and I represent a lot of celebrities and now like you
01:16:27
I've had a little taste of it. That's really just the praise of strangers. It's like the love of
01:16:35
strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely. It's like neutrieet. It's sweet. It's
01:16:40
not sugar, but it's sweet. Like, feels good to have strangers adore you. It's
01:16:46
lovely, you know? But is it the same as having someone who genuinely knows you and has a history of with you and really
01:16:55
loves you? Like I think all of us know if we're honest that when we look back
01:17:01
on our life at the moments where we felt the most glad that we're here, it was
01:17:07
usually something that we felt that made us feel loved or that we got to feel loved
01:17:13
towards someone else or or ideally a combination of the two. So I think romantic love is a great opportunity and
01:17:20
you don't have to be someone who's religious and therefore believes that
01:17:25
marriage is a sacrament that you're called to for the purpose of creating children. You don't have to be someone
01:17:30
who believes that you know marriage is good for society and therefore that's
01:17:36
why we have to do it is if you love America or you love the UK you have to do this for the country. It really can
01:17:42
just be to look inside your own experience as a human being and look inside your own feelings and say, "Okay,
01:17:47
when have I felt truly loved? When have I felt love? And were those the highest moments in my life? Were those the best
01:17:54
moments in my life?" A lot of those other things that you just described like holiday, it's usually not by
01:17:59
yourself. It's usually with other people. It's usually with someone. Even
01:18:02
if it's transient love, it's some kind of connection to another person. So the
01:18:07
the bigger question is is is the unique form of love that that comes with a pair
01:18:14
bond, right? I you find one person and you make that person your person. Like is that the permutation that works for
01:18:25
you? And I think there are a lot of people who try at that and fail. The majority of people try at that and fail.
01:18:34
Is the solution to that to give up on it? I don't think so. I think the solution to it is to figure out when it
01:18:41
works because when it works, it it's so good, right? Talk to anybody who's
01:18:45
really had a great successful long-term relationship. Again, even if it eventually ends, even if you know,
01:18:52
happily ever after means happily ever after separately. If you had 10, 20 years of your life where you felt deep,
01:18:58
wonderful intimate connection with another person and great sexual satisfaction and all kinds of other
01:19:02
things like you know at best right like you're you're getting married okay and
01:19:09
if you have a monogous marriage I would like to think that you will sleep with as many women as you
01:19:18
want to which will be one and she will sleep with as many men as she wants to, which will be one. Cuz
01:19:27
when I'm full, I'm not hungry. I don't need more to eat. Like when I'm satisfied, I don't
01:19:35
need more. Like if if the goal of a monogous marriage, if the goal of a traditional marriage is that we're going
01:19:42
to say to each other, "Hey, you and I, we're going to share space. We're going
01:19:47
to share a journey together. We're going to play a very important role in each
01:19:50
other's lives. We're going to add to that. there's this romantic and sexual
01:19:54
component which makes it something other than a friendship and most marriages you're saying we're going to only share
01:20:01
that aspect of self with each other. Okay. So if that's what you want and what comes from that is you know
01:20:12
something you want to feel and that is I want to feel deeply connected. I want to
01:20:17
feel a connection that gets deeper and deeper. I want to feel safe in this relationship. Emotionally, physically, I
01:20:23
want to feel safe in it. Like, I just think that there's tremendous value in
01:20:28
saying that out loud to each other from the beginning and saying to each other, what can we do to to if we both have
01:20:37
decided this is something we're going to do, we don't have to do it, but we're
01:20:40
going to do it. How can we keep this thing lovely and connected? And I I think the answer really is not that
01:20:49
complicated. >> Do you think prenups help marriages last? >> Yes. >> You're saying that as a divorce lawyer
01:20:55
who gets paid to write them? >> No. Because it's the least profitable thing we do.
01:20:58
>> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Prenups are so easy. Like they're, you know, they're really like to the
01:21:03
point now where they're essentially automated. Like I see a future where AI is just going to do them. Like it's
01:21:07
really not that tricky. >> Do you think I should get a prenup? >> Yes, of course.
01:21:11
>> Why do you think I should get a prenup? >> You have a prenup? It'll either be
01:21:14
written by the state legislature or it'll be written by you and she. Who do you trust more? You've been to the DMV.
01:21:20
Have you walked into the DMV and went, "Oh, these people are great. They should
01:21:22
be in charge of everything." I mean, you know what? They should make the rules
01:21:25
for our marriage. And by the way, even though this legislature changes constantly, like whoever you are,
01:21:31
whatever your political views are, in the last 20 years, at some point you've
01:21:35
gone, I cannot believe who's in charge here. I cannot believe who's in charge
01:21:39
of the government. Whatever side of the aisle you're on. So what you're saying
01:21:43
cuz your marriage has a prenup. You get married, you've got a prenup. You're
01:21:48
saying I trust the legislature of the state in which we will be residing in the future in the event we break up more
01:21:55
than I trust my partner who I've chosen out of 8 billion options. >> I imagine a lot of people listening
01:22:01
would be scared to mention a prenup to their partner. >> And those people in particular, by the
01:22:08
way, it's just like I said about, you know, I don't have 15 minutes a day to
01:22:11
meditate. Great. that you need an hour. If you'd be scared to mention a prenup
01:22:15
to your partner, then then you should definitely mention a prenup to your partner because what that means is I'm
01:22:22
afraid to have a hard conversation with my partner. And if you're going to get
01:22:26
married, you should get accustomed to having hard conversations. Life is going to come at you very fast. And there's
01:22:32
going to be lots of things that happen that require hard conversations. >> What if my partner says no?
01:22:38
>> Says no to the prenup. >> Yeah. have a conversation about why >> and they say you don't trust me like you
01:22:44
think I'm going to take your stuff. This is not very sexy. This is >> well arguably you don't trust me
01:22:49
equally, right? Because that trust works both ways. So what what what you're
01:22:53
saying when you say you don't trust me is you're saying that you don't trust
01:22:58
that this marriage is going to last or you don't trust you're saying you don't
01:23:04
trust that in the event this marriage ends we won't be fair to each other. Right? So, why would you marry someone
01:23:11
who you don't believe that they're going to be fair to you? What you're you're
01:23:16
not protecting yourselves against each other. You're protecting yourselves against the government making the rule
01:23:23
set in the event that that your marriage ends in something other than death. >> You know, I've got a friend um there's
01:23:29
two people that convinced me that I should get a prenup. >> One of them was you.
01:23:33
>> Thanks. Um, and then the other was watching a friend go through divorce and
01:23:37
he said to me actually when we we went for dinner one time that it was it was it was looking at his face and seeing
01:23:46
the like depression in his face from the process because not only had it ruined his relationship with his ex-wife
01:23:53
because they've gone through this onslaught for seven years where two sets of lawyers were fighting either side. He
01:23:57
said that he had paid for the lawyer her lawyers >> which he has to do which I I wasn't
01:24:02
>> Yeah. There's a presumption that the higher earning individual should be
01:24:06
responsible for the legal reasonable legal fees of the the less uh earning spouse.
01:24:12
>> He said her lawyer has now got like a skyscraper whereas when this divorce
01:24:17
started he was in a small little office. Now he's got like some massive building
01:24:20
because he's had to spend tens of millions on her lawyers. >> And >> yeah, I've had clients who paid
01:24:25
millions. The other thing he said was that he has her lawyer is trying to inflate his
01:24:33
assets >> to tell the judge that his business is worth >> billions of dollars when now I know why
01:24:41
this divorce is taking so long. They have dueling experts. So instead of of the two lawyers hiring neutral a neutral
01:24:47
expert to value his business interests, what they've elected to do instead is to
01:24:53
hire individual partisan experts. And that happens sometimes. And when you hire an individual partisan expert, of
01:25:00
course you're going to, you know, if you represent the party who wants half of
01:25:04
this thing, you're going to find someone. You can, the cigarette companies had doctors who were willing
01:25:09
to testify that cigarettes are good for you. Like you can find an expert to say almost anything if you pay them enough.
01:25:16
So you find credible experts that will overly value the business and then because value is speculative and then
01:25:22
the other side has an incentive to hire experts who will deliberately diminish the value of the business and then you
01:25:28
have two opportunities. One is you can play with the data set and you can impeach the data set and then the other
01:25:34
is you can impeach the conclusion that came from the data set. So you can say you used the wrong data and that's how
01:25:39
you got to the wrong conclusion. Or you can say you use the right data but you came to the wrong conclusion or some
01:25:43
combination of both. Like this is the [ __ ] I get to do all day in a courtroom is to like try to engineer those optics
01:25:49
or prevent those optics from being engineered in that direction. >> And say that I was going through a
01:25:55
divorce now with my partner. Mhm. >> My wife would well her lawyer would theoretically be trying to say that this
01:26:03
podcast is worth a billion dollars because then theoretically >> she's entitled to a larger percentage.
01:26:08
Yeah. >> She might be entitled to 500 million. And if the judge believes that this
01:26:12
podcast is worth a billion, I need to find a way to pay her 500 million. >> Yeah.
01:26:16
>> Even if I don't have it, >> it can be paid over time. It's what's
01:26:18
called a distributive award. It can be paid over an extended period of time. That's
01:26:22
>> and my lawyer is going to be trying to argue that this is worth nothing.
01:26:24
>> Nothing. It's absolutely effortless. It's worth nothing. You should have
01:26:26
negative contingency discounts, a key man discount. It's a lack of discount for marketability. There's Yeah, this is
01:26:31
all I do all day. This is the gig. And and see, you know why you want a prenup is cuz God forbid for both of you that
01:26:41
that happens. Like you're you're going to pay me. I get a thousand dollars an
01:26:48
hour to help people navigate that kind of chaos or to create that kind of chaos as a weapon against a person or to just
01:26:59
threaten that kind of chaos. >> Doesn't that mean it's your in your
01:27:03
interest to stretch to amplify conflict and stretch it out and protract it? And by the way, I manipulate people's
01:27:11
emotional state for a living. I said that earlier. You don't think I could use my powers for evil to get my client
01:27:17
terrified and worried that forces are aligning against him? By the way, that's
01:27:21
how good lawyers get their reputation as being good lawyers because sometimes we
01:27:26
have a client where we could potentially make millions of dollars and we settle the case within like $10,000 worth of
01:27:33
fee. Like I have a case right now where my opposing council is I I would consider the only lawyer in New York
01:27:39
City better than me. like he's sort of like an idol to me in the sense that he's such a good trial lawyer and he's
01:27:46
my adversary on this case and it's not the first case we've had against each
01:27:49
other and we are like when the two of us go in a courtroom it's like T-Rexes
01:27:52
fighting we're going to settle this case in like two phone calls because we both are just
01:27:58
not the kind of people that are going to unnecessarily amplify conflict. We we we
01:28:03
have our reputation because we don't do that. Like the best of us, that's how
01:28:09
you earn the reputation. The people that do that amplifying of conflict, word gets out. Word gets out and that's this
01:28:16
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01:29:43
>> So, I have some M&M's here or something. >> You love M&M's. Um, explain to me.
01:29:51
>> So, this is actually a great illustration of what a prenup should be. Okay. All a prenup is, a prenup is not a
01:29:58
referendum on the likelihood of us breaking up. A prenup is not a commentary on how much we trust each
01:30:05
other. A prenup is not um, you know, an opportunity to screw the person you're
01:30:10
about to join lives with. Okay? A prenup is a rule set. It's creating tranches.
01:30:17
Okay? So, you have some things. She has some things. Right now, you don't owe
01:30:23
her anything. She doesn't owe you anything. Yours is yours. Hers is hers. You're in the title system.
01:30:30
>> Can we talk about if we're just dating? >> So, if we're dating, I heard that
01:30:35
there's some laws where if you date someone long enough, eventually they can
01:30:39
basically argue that they own your stuff. >> Yeah. So that's called what used to be
01:30:42
called common law marriage or it makes you responsible for what we used to call palimony which is like alimony for a
01:30:48
friend palimony. Okay. Um most jurisdictions no longer honor that. It doesn't exist. It was largely a function
01:30:55
of the absence of marriage equality. So once marriage equality occurred, once gay and lesbian individuals could marry,
01:31:02
the court system essentially started saying there's no such thing as a quasi
01:31:06
marital relationship anymore. If you are married, you're married. If you're not,
01:31:11
you're not. So, if you decide to live together and you don't have a marriage,
01:31:16
then you can't have a quasi marital relationship anymore. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land and
01:31:22
everyone who wants to get married is allowed to get married. You can't say, "Well, we were kind of like married, but
01:31:28
we weren't married." Like, you're either married or you're not married. Those are
01:31:32
the two tranches. So, that situation, you're in the title system. Yours is yours, hers is hers. There is no wei
01:31:39
except for the voluntary wei. >> Okay. So now using coming back to this example of these M&Ms and prenups.
01:31:45
>> So here's what marriage is simply put. There's you, there's me, this is we.
01:31:53
This is the bucket of we. Okay? When we get married, we're going to take you.
01:32:06
I didn't put it all. See how I didn't put it all? Okay, I'm keeping this
01:32:11
separate. That's called separate property. Okay, in California, this is called community property. This is
01:32:16
anything I acquire during the marriage. Okay, this is separate property. If I keep it separate, it stays separate.
01:32:24
Okay, it stays separate. Keep that thought. This is her. Okay. So, she's put some of hers in there,
01:32:38
too. May not be exactly the same, but it's pretty close to it. And by the way,
01:32:40
we just got married. It's pretty obvious to see which one's which, right? Okay.
01:32:45
So, so this is any marriage really, with or without a prenup. Okay? This is what
01:32:50
marriage looks like. There's you and there's me and there's we. We're
01:32:53
combining. And by the way, this isn't just for assets and liabilities. This is
01:32:56
like the nature of our stuff, our furniture, the things we bring to the relationship. You could even argue it's
01:33:00
like what we watch on TV, right? It's you, me, we, and we combine the two. Okay. Now, you and I both know this is
01:33:07
actually what it starts to look like. It never stays just neat, does it? It always starts to get kind of mixed up
01:33:11
together. In the law, we call that co-mingling. Okay. Now, here's what's
01:33:17
interesting with a prenup. This stays this simple because anything you put in this bucket is marital.
01:33:27
>> And that could be stuff I bought for the house. It could be a joint bank account.
01:33:31
It >> could be anything. >> Okay? All we're doing when we have a
01:33:34
prenup is yours, mine, ours, and we're defining that. So maybe I want you to
01:33:43
feel I'm very invested in this relationship. So I throw some more in. Hey babe, I just got a bonus at work.
01:33:48
I'm throwing it into the wei. I'm keeping a little over here. I'm keeping
01:33:52
a little over here. >> Wait, can you do that after the marriage? >> With a prenup?
01:33:56
>> Yeah. >> So, you can add to a prenup. >> With a prenup, what you're saying is if
01:34:01
it's in my name, it's mine. Asset or liability. If it's in your name, it's
01:34:04
yours. Asset or liability. If it's in our joint names, we divide it 50/50 or
01:34:08
how we agree in writing. But we create three separate buckets. Yours, mine, and ours. Okay? Do you know what happens in
01:34:16
the state of California after seven years or in the state of New York if you co-mingle assets in any way?
01:34:26
This is solely things in your name. This is solely things in her name. Things you
01:34:30
owned before marriage. This is the you and the me before you got married. It's community property now. All of it.
01:34:41
>> Everything. >> All of it. Every bit of it. You didn't have a prenup. Everything that's in it,
01:34:45
everything in here is is subject to division. Everything that's in here is subject to identification, valuation,
01:34:55
and division. And think about think about sorting that out. >> And also going back to my friend, some
01:35:04
of the value of these assets is up for debate. >> Sure. Sure. Not only is the value
01:35:10
because look, some of these are cracked and some of them aren't. And did they
01:35:13
crack in this process or were they cracked before? Did she crack them or did you crack them? And which ones are
01:35:17
worth more than the others? And were these the same at the be? It doesn't matter. It's all in. And by the way,
01:35:22
take take out the marital take out your property. Now, how long is that going to
01:35:26
take you? It's impossible to do that. Once you're in the community property
01:35:31
system, once you've put something into the Wii category, if you get married without a prenup, you can
01:35:36
unintentionally buy into this into this system, which by the way, I make a very comfortable
01:35:44
living helping people sort this out. Whereas whereas all you had to do was agree on the rule
01:35:55
set of yours, mine, ours, and then this is intentional. Now, I understand why that's scary for some people because you
01:36:03
have to have a conversation about, well, are we putting that in joint names? Or,
01:36:07
well, you got that bonus. Are you putting it in my account or your account or some in your account and some in my
01:36:13
account or some in this? But isn't it better to keep some level of control over this?
01:36:19
>> If I was a financially motivated individual and I was marrying say you and you were a billionaire,
01:36:27
>> I mean it's very much in my interest to avoid this prenup. >> Maybe.
01:36:31
>> Yeah. >> Because then, you know, it's all going to become we in seven years time. So
01:36:35
I've just got to be with you for seven years and then I can bounce out of this
01:36:37
and I'm going to make half half a billion dollars. Have you ever seen that? >> Of course. Have you ever seen but here's
01:36:43
also what I will say to you. Flip that story for a second. So we're married for 6 and 1/2 years.
01:36:50
It's going pretty well. We're at the 6 and 1/2 year mark. You're you're a billionaire. You're
01:36:58
probably not stupid, right? Are you going to take that bet? >> Is it seven years is the moment
01:37:04
>> 7 years is the moment >> when it all becomes >> community property. Yeah. So do you find
01:37:08
some very successful people >> they spike the divorce rate at six years six and a half years because why? It's
01:37:13
the same reason why I tell people don't put don't put what we call you know
01:37:17
sunset clauses in a prenup because people people all have the bright idea that they're going to oh well we'll do a
01:37:23
prenup but after 10 years it'll go away after 10 years you know it'll self-destruct like in Mission
01:37:30
Impossible. And all that does is makes people ask really icky questions at the nine and a half year mark where they
01:37:36
have to start going because seven years seven years it's like the honeymoon's
01:37:40
over. Maybe you got a kid or two and all of a sudden you go, "Okay, do I want
01:37:45
fully one half of everything I owned prior to the marriage to now be subject to division? Is it going that good? Do I
01:37:52
want to take this bet?" Like look, we live in reality. What you're doing when you marry someone
01:37:57
is you're marrying your destiny to them and you're making decisions about a
01:38:01
future that you can't see. It hasn't happened yet. If seven years is the
01:38:05
moment when our assets become co-mingled to the point that community property where we have to kind of split our
01:38:13
assets in a relationship, have you ever seen someone get to like seven years in one day and then file for divorce
01:38:19
because they're going to get >> Yeah, I've had people who wait until the
01:38:21
exact moment. Like there's other there's other formulas that are applicable. Like
01:38:26
I I have plenty of people right now that have come to me for a consultation and they're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to
01:38:30
file for another 6 months because we'll hit 20 years in 6 months." And when we
01:38:33
hit that, it kicks up to another level of alimony in terms of the formulas. Like here's the thing. When the
01:38:38
government makes decisions for you, they set numbers. Like there's a highway near
01:38:45
where we are right now. It's 55 miles an hour is an acceptable legal speed to
01:38:51
drive on that. 56 and you're committing a crime. 76 and you're committing a
01:38:56
different level of crime. 106 and you're committing a higher level felony crime.
01:39:00
Right? Is 56 and 55 that much different? No. We had to pick a number. So, we picked that number. So, do you trust the
01:39:09
government to pick the number? That's the only question to ask when you're
01:39:13
thinking about a prenup is, do I trust the government so much that I'm going to
01:39:16
let them pick the number? Personally, I don't. Personally, if I like someone so
01:39:22
much that I've decided I'm going to choose them out of 8 billion other options, I would think I have enough
01:39:27
faith in that person to come up with a rule set between us that we and BY THE WAY, NOT A COMPLICATED rule set. If it's
01:39:33
in my name, it's mine. If it's in your name, it's yours. If it's in our name,
01:39:36
it's ours. Then you can have all the conversations you want about why aren't
01:39:39
you putting things in joint names or why are you putting things in joint names and here's what I need to feel safe
01:39:43
because here's the thing. If you're the billionaire or you're the person
01:39:46
marrying the billionaire you both want to feel remember we're going back to what is it you want to feel? What is it
01:39:51
you want to feel? That's the key question. You what do you want to feel? You both want to feel safe. Isn't that
01:39:56
fair? I've represented a lot of victims of intimate partner abuse and domestic
01:40:00
violence and course of control and I can tell you you can't feel loved if you
01:40:04
don't feel safe. And there's lots of ways for a person to feel unsafe physically, emotionally, financially.
01:40:11
There's lots of ways to make someone I hope you want to make your fiance feel
01:40:16
safe. And I hope she wants to make you feel safe. So, one of the ways that you make her feel safe. By the way, you
01:40:22
can't protect her from everything in the world. You know that, right? Like somebody drops a nuke, there's nothing
01:40:26
you're going to be able to do to help her with that. Okay? There's lots of
01:40:29
things that can happen that you can't keep her safe from, but you're going to
01:40:32
do your darnest, and that's great. Okay. And by the way, like she wants you to
01:40:37
feel safe. She wants you to feel safe and not taken advantage of and loved for who you are. Right? I I have every
01:40:43
confidence she does not love you just for money. There's lots of people with
01:40:46
money in the world. So, she loves the unique combination of things that are you. One factor of which may be that
01:40:52
you're a very successful man professionally. And that makes her feel safe. And that makes her feel secure.
01:40:56
And it makes her feel like she can really have a future with you that's a bright and lovely one. And she can focus
01:41:01
her energies on things other than find. That's great. This is great, man. We're
01:41:05
both happy. We're doing the thing. So, what is wrong with just keeping this conversation an ongoing conversation
01:41:14
about what is it we need to feel safe? Cuz if you are in that dynamic where she's gorgeous and he's rich, if she
01:41:22
says to him, "Hey, if we split up, I'm going to like need some things. Like, I
01:41:27
I'm not really focusing on finances and you have so much more than me. You're
01:41:31
telling me a guy's not going to say, "Yeah, it makes sense." And by the way,
01:41:35
when's the time to have that conversation? WHEN YOU'RE MADLY IN LOVE WITH EACH other in the beginning of this
01:41:39
thing, when you're on your knee in front of the restaurant, you know, proposing
01:41:42
to the person. You don't have it when you're breaking up. That's the worst
01:41:46
time to have that conversation. Have it when you're first having that abundance
01:41:50
of optimism and connection to each other. And then and then, by the way, what does he feel unsafe? He feels
01:41:56
unsafe that he's saying, "Look, I'm willing to contribute financially to
01:42:00
this relationship. Clearly, I've proven that. I bought you a Birkin bag. I bought you a car. I pay for your bills.
01:42:05
I'm signing on to marry you and to give you a wonderful, beautiful life." Are
01:42:09
you entitled to 100% or 50% of everything I've ever owned? I have so much more than you right now. Like, that
01:42:17
seems wildly. Do you Are you saying that everything I earn from the date of marriage on we should split? Like,
01:42:23
that's what's great about a prenup. You can make whatever rules you want to in
01:42:27
that situation. So I I believe there is genuine value in having honest conversations about these things. Look,
01:42:36
I it's just M&M's. It's just money the end of the day. And by the way, this has
01:42:42
no more real value than the pieces of paper you're holding in your pocket that
01:42:46
we've attributed value to. If anything, this tastes good. Chew on money all you
01:42:49
want. It won't help. I did have this conversation with my partner and we we talked about it and she was very um she
01:42:56
was very supportive of a prenup because she also wants one and she wants to protect her assets and the business that
01:43:00
she's built and all those kinds of things which was useful but also I acknowledged you know that I'm I earn
01:43:07
more money so in the event that we have a big family in the future we have four five kids
01:43:13
>> you I think I need to contribute more to make sure that she's fine in the event
01:43:16
>> I'm not of course but but see this is the point you're a reasonable person if
01:43:22
your response when she said well you know I we may want to have a family and you know if we do like you have so much
01:43:28
more than me and although I'm signing off to protect your assets like you know
01:43:31
the pursuits I I am really concentrating my day on are not purely financial they're more for the good of the world
01:43:38
or for the good of individuals I'm I'm a helper I'm a person who wants to to to
01:43:41
to make the world a better place you know I know a little bit about her that I know that these are these are her
01:43:46
goals her goal is not to be I want to be the CEO of everything her goal goals is
01:43:51
to help the world and to help people. That's beautiful. That's probably one of
01:43:54
the reasons why you love her so much. And so, isn't that a conversation the two of you should have now and say,
01:44:01
"Well, of course." And by the way, if we have kids, I'm going to need different
01:44:05
things. What's great about a prenup is you can make one that says, "If we don't
01:44:08
have kids, it's this. If we have kids, it's this." Like, there's protections
01:44:12
you can put in that make sense to both of you. >> What about pets? I've heard about this
01:44:16
petnup. >> Petnup? Yeah. >> What's a pet nup? And do people actually
01:44:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. Pet a PTNUP is I actually created the site trusted petnup.com and
01:44:26
uh it's free. It's 100% free. It's uh if you it's a pay as you wish. So if you
01:44:31
want to to pay anything towards it, 100% of it goes to animal shelters basically
01:44:36
to to 501c3 animal shelters. But essentially what we have found is happening more in the legal system right
01:44:43
now is the equivalent of custody cases but for companion animals. So people have a dog, people have a cat, people
01:44:49
have a bird, people have any combination of animals. We feel deeply emotionally invested in our pets. Um the law for
01:44:56
many years looked at pets as what was called cattle. Chatt is property and property is essentially like if you
01:45:03
killed someone's dog, you owed them the replacement value of the dog. >> What do you tend to see from a legal
01:45:10
perspective here? Is it that at one point they bought a pet together, they never really clarified who owns the pet.
01:45:17
They go through a divorce. They're both arguing over the pet. >> That happened a lot. Yeah, that was the
01:45:20
most common permutation. Sometimes it was they got a pet together while they were dating and one of them was living,
01:45:27
you know, in their own apartment or whatever and the dog or cat was living with them and then they merged their
01:45:32
homes and now they both grow deeply attached to this animal and you know they've spent 5 years or 10 years
01:45:38
together with this animal and now they both like a child. They both have this like a stepchild is very similar like
01:45:44
it's not my blood child but it's you know someone who I've spent a long time
01:45:48
with and been part of their care and I mean something to them. What's the legal? What's what what's the
01:45:53
>> Well, for many many years, pets were considered chatt. They were considered
01:45:56
property. So, you know, I I remember a case in New York County where the parties could not agree on what to do
01:46:03
with the dog, like who would keep the dog. And the judge said, "Okay, I'm
01:46:06
ordering the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided." And of course, the people then went outside and figured, it
01:46:11
was very Solomonike. The people went outside and figured out a visitation schedule for the dog. But what we're
01:46:16
just saying is just like anything in a prenup, do this in advance. Just do this in advance. you have a pet, have a
01:46:22
petup. Even if you're not getting married, if you're cohabitating or you're dating someone, have a contract
01:46:26
that says, "We both care about this animal. We've adopted this animal or we
01:46:31
purchased this animal or we brought this animal into our lives. And now, in the event that our relationship ends, here's
01:46:39
what the rules will be. We will jointly make important medical decisions and be guided by the veterinarian's, you know,
01:46:46
perspective. Um if if either of us ever is going to give up the animal for adoption, the other person will have the
01:46:52
automatic right to adopt the animal. If the time eventually comes where there has been a recommendation of euthanasia
01:46:58
by we will both be entitled to be there when we say goodbye to that dog or we'll
01:47:03
both be entitled to jointly agree on where that animal's ashes will be or where they'll be buried or we'll each be
01:47:10
entitled to one half of the ashes or we'll have a visitation schedule for the
01:47:14
dog in the event that we separate. That's what a petnup is. A petup is a contract between two people. Look, just
01:47:20
like kids, pets didn't ask for this. Pets didn't ask for you guys to break up. It's not
01:47:27
their fault. Like, I don't know anybody that ever broke up because of the dog or
01:47:30
the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but that's not what it's about.
01:47:34
So, it is very, very useful to have in advance a rule set. I like rules in advance. I like to know the rules of the
01:47:41
game that we're playing because we can adjust our behavior accordingly. Is um
01:47:45
divorce increasing statistically? >> So it's the most recent statistic is the
01:47:51
divorce rate is slowly going up. It was low. It had it had gone down. It went down during the pandemic. Part of that
01:47:59
was a function of access to the court system. When again when you're looking
01:48:03
at the divorce rate, the divorce rate is calculated based on the filing of what's
01:48:08
called certificate of dissolution of marriage, which is the final document that's filed with the state by the court
01:48:14
system when a divorce has been finalized. So all you're really seeing there is what marriage is
01:48:18
catastrophically failed and and there was a judgment of divorce center. There are many people that just go out for
01:48:23
milk and never come back or they physically separate and then they never finalize the divorce. They're not
01:48:27
factored into that statistic. So, and the people who quietly stay together miserable or live in different places
01:48:32
and just move out and never finalize their divorce. That that that statistic doesn't include any of those people.
01:48:37
These are just the people that it actually ended in divorce and that divorce was registered with the state.
01:48:42
But the divorce rate went down and then it the divorce filing rate spiked when the court systems opened back up post
01:48:49
pandemic and now it's steadily going back up again. Now what's interesting is
01:48:54
the marriage rate is going down and the average age at which people marry is going up. I was looking at the
01:49:03
generational divide here and it says younger couples so millennials and Gen Z divorce rates have plummeted. They are
01:49:09
marrying later, cohabiting first and statistically more selective leading to more stable marriages. However, there is
01:49:15
something called the gray divorce. divorce rates for people over 50 um they refer to as gray divorce has doubled
01:49:22
since 1990 and tripled for those over 65. >> Yeah. Gray divorce is a uh something
01:49:28
that a lot of divorce lawyers are thinking and talking a lot about right now which is that first of all people
01:49:34
are living much longer. People are living in a different way much longer thanks to things like erectile
01:49:39
dysfunction medication. like you know an 80year-old having you know a active sex
01:49:44
life is not something that really existed so often prior to the pharmaceutical advent of erectile dysfunction drugs
01:49:53
which really only occurred in the last 20 years. So there's a big change in in
01:49:58
what a 70year-old or 80year-old's quality of life is and what they look like and what their health is like. So,
01:50:04
you know, with with uh hormone replacement therapy, with you know, all the different medications that are out
01:50:09
there, people are living more uh sexually uh you know, and romantically charged lives in their elder years than
01:50:18
they used to, which often leads people to say, you know what, I've got 10 more
01:50:22
years. I'm not going to stay in this unhappy relationship and I'm going to
01:50:24
split up. I actually don't think, by the way, that those two statistics that you
01:50:28
just talked about are unrelated. I think millennials they they haven't been married for that long yet. Like the
01:50:35
question of catastrophic failure of a marriage like I I've said it before that
01:50:39
people get divorced the same way they go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once.
01:50:44
>> What two of the reasons given in the research I did as well were quite quite
01:50:49
unobvious on the surface. One of them is that women in this generation boomers and Gen Z are more likely to have their
01:50:54
own careers and retirement savings than previous generations. Meaning they can afford to leave unhappy marriages. And
01:50:59
when I've spoken with menopause experts and so on, they they've told me they see
01:51:02
this often that in this season of life, women will, you know, make a decision to
01:51:06
to leave. And the other one is the reduced stigma about divorce. >> Yeah. >> So divorce is no longer seen as a moral
01:51:13
failure, making it socially easier to split later in life. >> I believe that that's true. I think that
01:51:18
we've definitely changed the manner in which we relate to divorce. We no longer
01:51:22
consider it a catastrophic failure socially. I think that we often see it as the ending of a chapter and the
01:51:29
beginning of a new one. I don't think that that's bad. I think dstigmatizing
01:51:32
divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes it is better for people when the relationship is no longer working for
01:51:38
both of them and they've done the things they've tried to do to make it work and
01:51:42
they've decided that happily ever after means happily ever after separately. I
01:51:45
don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Similarly, you could make the
01:51:49
argument that one of the reasons millennials, and again, only time will tell, that millennials are better at uh
01:51:55
staying married is going to be that they go into it with more realistic expectations. They don't go into it with
01:51:59
the expectation that this person's going to be their everything. They they look
01:52:02
at it and go, "Yeah, as a human being, I'm marrying another human being. I
01:52:06
haven't quite figured myself out." >> Which of your books was more popular?
01:52:09
How not to [ __ ] up your marriage, straight talk from a divorce lawyer who's seen it all, or how to stay in
01:52:15
love? So, How to Stay in Love has been out longer. Yeah. So, it's done quite
01:52:20
well um over the period of time. It's in its fourth printing right now. >> And what what about this book do you
01:52:26
think was resonant? Is there a particular idea that was number one in this book?
01:52:30
>> I think a it was the first book written by a divorce lawyer to headon take on
01:52:37
the topic of how to not get divorced. It was a how not to book basically. So, I think that that was the the key concept
01:52:45
was uh keeping people connected and and what you could learn. Look, who are you going to go to if you want to learn how
01:52:52
to keep your car in good condition? A new car dealer or a mechanic? Like, a new car dealer only sees brand new cars.
01:53:00
They don't know anything about, you know, about how to actually keep one together. Mechanics are good at that. We
01:53:06
tell you where the predictable points of failure are. So, I think that was what made the book popular. What's the most
01:53:12
important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about as it pertains to the subject of holding on to
01:53:18
this very precious thing and very elusive thing for many called love? You know, something I've been thinking a lot
01:53:23
about lately is two, and I say this to you as an engaged man and as a friend. I think there's two seemingly
01:53:33
contradictory assumptions people make when they get married that I hope you're not making.
01:53:40
Okay? I hope this couple neither person in this couple is making one is thinking that
01:53:49
marriage will change the other person. So, you know, Steven works so much and he's so hard charging, but once we get
01:53:56
married, he'll come home more and he'll be home more and he'll calm down more.
01:54:00
You know, she's uh uh you know, very worried about me when I'm I'm making
01:54:05
something up, but she's worried about me when I'm out and on the road and she's
01:54:08
worried about temptation bothering me. But once we're married, she'll know we
01:54:11
have a really solid commitment. She won't have that worry anymore. Okay. Thinking that marriage is going to
01:54:17
change someone is a very dangerous assumption. And a lot of the people that come into my office, they entered
01:54:24
marriage thinking this is going to change things that I want to see changed. The contradictory second thing is
01:54:33
thinking once we get married nothing will change. thinking, "This is so lovely. She's so
01:54:41
wonderful. I love the version of me she brings out. So, I'm so wonderful when
01:54:46
I'm with her." And her thinking, "He's so wonderful, and I love who he how he
01:54:50
makes me." Because, you know, we don't just love the person. We love the person
01:54:54
we are when we're with that person. We love how that person makes us feel about
01:54:59
ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's one of the best things about love,
01:55:02
right? So making the assumption that that will never change that nothing about this rel that marrying will
01:55:11
somehow build a wall around this beautiful wonderful warm thing that we found together and it'll protect it from
01:55:17
all the other things in the world and nothing will change and it'll just stay
01:55:21
wonderful is another very dangerous assumption. So even though it seems like a contradiction,
01:55:29
I hope that things change and I hope some things don't change. And the only way that I can think of to let those two
01:55:38
contradictory elements peacefully coexist in a manner that doesn't lead directly to the desk in front of me is
01:55:45
to just keep talking about it. And when things change, just talk about it. Just point it out. Not with judgment, not
01:55:53
with anger, not with the belief that because something changed it's bad. And
01:55:58
not with the change that change is automatically good. Just saying, "Hey, remember these two people?
01:56:06
That guy's a little different now. Is that okay? Why did that happen? Is it a
01:56:10
good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do you miss him? Is there something that we could do that's different or better?"
01:56:15
Like these two people found value in each other. They they love the other person and they love who they are when
01:56:23
they're with the person. And again, I'll I'll say it again. Your marriage will
01:56:27
end. I promise. I hope it ends in death. And I hope when it ends that you will look at her and you will say, "She
01:56:36
helped me become the most authentic version of myself and she's still my favorite person."
01:56:43
That's the greatest gift that you could give to her and that you can give to
01:56:47
each other and that I think the two of you together could give to the world and that's worth all the M&M's.
01:56:57
Why do you point to authenticity as being so important in this context? Because you use that word, she helped me
01:57:04
become the most authentic version of myself. Why does that matter? >> Because it's not about becoming the
01:57:09
version of you that she envisions for you. or her becoming who you want her to become. I think that sometimes love
01:57:19
the person doesn't become what we wanted them to be. And I think sometimes what
01:57:24
we wanted them to be might not be the most authentic version of who they are. You know, Cahil Gabbron in the prophet
01:57:31
when he's talking about children, he says that children are living arrows and and and that you you fire the arrow
01:57:41
and yes, your aim has something to do with it, but the wind has something to do with it and so many other things have
01:57:46
something to do with it. And so, you know, God loves the archer with the steady hand and the arrow that's
01:57:54
straight. And I feel like if you were to say this person became who I wanted them to
01:58:02
become like because again I think our duty in the best symbiosis you care a lot about her even more so than
01:58:14
you do about yourself. And she cares about you even more so than she does about herself. but not to have you
01:58:23
become the man she wants you to be and not for her to become the woman you want her to be. You want to be of service to
01:58:30
her and she wants to be of service to you. I want to help you become the most authentic version of you. I can see your
01:58:38
blind spots. You can't. That's why they're blind spots. So, I'm going to
01:58:42
help you become the most authentic version of yourself. That's the promise. That should be the promise in marriage
01:58:50
is I want to help you become I'm going to do what I can to be of service to helping you become the most authentic
01:58:57
version of yourself. And when you become it, you'll still be my favorite person
01:59:02
because at the core of you is this thing that I love. >> I hope I do a good job.
01:59:11
>> I hope you do, too. >> Scary, isn't it? Cuz you think of all the ways you can [ __ ] it up. It's like,
01:59:16
do you know what I mean? >> But you know what? There's so many ways. >> That's why it's brave.
01:59:20
>> Like, if you're not scared, it's not brave. >> It's brave because you're scared and you
01:59:24
do it anyway. >> And it's worth doing it because if the prize at the end of it is figuring out
01:59:30
who you are and helping someone figure out who they are and having a partner in all of this, like what's better than
01:59:37
that, man? What what riches could you hold that are greater than that? Like, that's the greatest gift you could seek
01:59:43
in life. And and by the way, it also has the power, if it's done right, to transform the world because it really is
01:59:52
family, community, culture, world, you know, and so yeah, it's it's the fact that you say it's
02:00:02
scary is great because it means you realize this is a serious thing and something that you realize is serious,
02:00:11
you're going to make a concerted effort to be good at. Amen. We have a closing tradition. As
02:00:16
you know, the question left for you is, what is the most significant dream you have had in the past year and how did it
02:00:25
change your behavior? Go on. I know. I want to get through this without crying. I had a uh I had a
02:00:36
dream about my mom. It's okay. My mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer.
02:00:55
There was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said. We had some peace and some closure, but
02:01:06
there's a lot I didn't hadn't figured out about myself by the time she passed. And there's a
02:01:13
part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized for some things I got wrong and I could have
02:01:21
understood her better. And I had a dream that she was just there just sitting with me.
02:01:33
And my mom was like me. She never shut up. She would just constantly talk and talk over you. And
02:01:43
I got that from her. Her very energetic. She also cried constantly and for for joy, tears of joy. She would listen to
02:01:50
music and just start crying because it was so beautiful. I realized I got that from her. Most of the really warm things
02:01:56
in me came from her. And in this dream, she just sat there silently. And I kept talking to her. I don't
02:02:06
remember what I was saying, but I just kept talking to her. And she just sat there quietly and just
02:02:12
was patting my leg. And I I remember I woke up and I felt I felt very like calm. I felt very like
02:02:33
I'd spent time with her. And I thought to myself, I think that that was something. I don't know if it
02:02:41
was her visiting me. I don't know if it was God talking to me. I don't know if
02:02:44
it was just my subconscious telling me something I needed to see. But I felt like it was saying to me
02:02:50
that, you know, that sometimes the words got in the way between the two of us and
02:02:58
that maybe what really mattered the most was just that we were next to each other.
02:03:05
And I tried to since I had that dream um do that more with the people I love. It's it's hard for me to stop talking.
02:03:20
And I'm learning with my sons and with the people that I love that sometimes just being next to
02:03:29
them is nice. that I don't need to uh I'm really good at talking so I just
02:03:36
keep doing it and that maybe sometimes it's nice to just stop and just be with
02:03:42
someone. And so I felt like that that was a very powerful dream. It was a very simple dream, but it was one that it it
02:03:52
changed the way I'm trying to relate to people. So, you got me to cry again, man.
02:03:57
Killing me. >> At the end of the day, it all comes back to love, doesn't it?
02:04:03
>> Yeah, it does. Isn't it funny? >> All roads. >> Isn't it funny? Like, we've added all
02:04:08
these layers of complexity to it. That's all it comes down to. >> Isn't it crazy?
02:04:13
>> Yeah, it really is. >> Someone asked me that on stage that like last week I was speaking in the Middle
02:04:17
East somewhere and they asked me about like what does everybody want? That was literally the question and my answer was
02:04:22
love. And we all we're like confused about the path to it. So, some of us think the path to it is like if I get
02:04:27
the number one podcast, maybe that would mean or >> maybe that would mean I'm worthy of
02:04:31
love. >> Yeah. Like >> like we we we've come to we've come to
02:04:34
associate accomplishment with being worthy of love. >> And that's really all that it is. Like
02:04:41
it's really all that it is. Like what otherwise what's the purpose of it? Like
02:04:44
how many super cars can one person have and how much joy can they really give you? You can only drive them one at a
02:04:49
time, you know? Like it really is about like no, I feel worthy. I feel worthy of
02:04:53
love. I feel proud of who I am, which is I'm proud of who I am, which means I'm
02:04:57
worthy of love. It really all comes back to love. It really all comes back to love. The the the two things that late
02:05:04
middle age is helping me see is that the hardest thing to become is yourself, your authentic self. And that really all
02:05:15
any of us want is to be loved, like and to be worthy of love. And that everything you have will add up to a
02:05:23
great pile of nothing other than the people who you love and the people who loved you and the
02:05:30
experiences you had with those people. That's it. That's all that matters.
02:05:37
Everything else is noise. >> James, thank you. >> Thank you. Always good to see you.
02:05:47
>> Good to see you, too. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know
02:05:50
exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says
02:05:57
that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out
02:06:03
and I bet you you might love