00:00:00
So, I messaged my closest friends. Can you tell me what question you have that you wouldn't ever say out loud? Give me
00:00:06
a few. How can I be satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have my partner. Should I tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive, but I don't know how to tell her. We have a lot to talk
00:00:18
about. You going to record me today? Okay. All right. Here's what I would suggest. Esther PL is regarded as one of
00:00:25
the most sought after relationship therapists in the world. For the past 40 years, she's been helping millions of people with her brutally honest and
00:00:31
wildly relatable insights. People are having less sex. Why is the sex getting less interesting? No, their life with
00:00:38
each other is less interesting. And what concerns me at this moment, it's the loss of social skills, but they are
00:00:44
vital to us. And we have less and less opportunities to practice because we are pursuing connection beyond the human world. People don't have partner sex, they have sex on porn. We also are
00:00:56
surrounded by algorithmic perfections and that's creating warped expectations that we bring to our relationships and then there's the misery of the dating app. Have you heard this story of the
00:01:07
guy who swiped 2 million times to get one date? Oh god. It appears that you have many options but you'll swipe swipe swipe and you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with
00:01:18
anybody. But don't make the app become the replacement where you can actually go outside, meet people, and also deal
00:01:25
with rejection because it's a major feature to develop relationships. But we've never been more free, but we've
00:01:31
never been more alone and more filled with self-doubt. So, tell me how to fix it in order to have a great relationship. There's a ton of really
00:01:38
important things. The first thing this This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So, could I ask you for a favor
00:01:51
before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting
00:01:56
the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team,
00:02:02
to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback. We'll find the guests
00:02:07
that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. [Music]
00:02:14
Esther, with all that you know and with all that you study and with all that you research and write about and think about,
00:02:21
what is it that concerns you most? What is front of mind for you when you think about mating and dating and human
00:02:28
connection? What concerns me most I think is the fact that uh there is a unique moment in history at this moment where we are redesigning our
00:02:41
communication our way ways of connecting our ways of answering the big questions
00:02:48
but specifically in the realm of relationships it's social atrophy I think we are losing social skills and the word atrophy for anyone that doesn't know is atrophy is when you don't use
00:03:01
muscles they go numb. Social atrophy is when you no longer know how to speak to people. And what is the cost of that? If we do lose that social ability to to
00:03:12
connect and to have happen stance, what price do we pay? Why does life get harder? And how does it get harder?
00:03:18
Because we are social creatures. We are wired for connection. If we we live longer because we are connected. We don't live longer because we are master biohackers.
00:03:31
We need those connections. They are just literally vital to us. So, um it's not that we have replaced this, you know, and and our skills are still honed in. We don't we have less and less
00:03:44
opportunities to practice. If you do sports and you don't practice your sport, you wouldn't be asking me what is the price. You would know that if you don't play and it's been years of
00:03:56
not playing, then that thing is out of your life. Done. But you can do other things, whereas you can't live without
00:04:03
connection. So many people are really dissatisfied with the choices they have for connection. Now, I'm sure we're all to blame, but when I when I scroll through my my feed on social media, one
00:04:14
of the things I've seen lately, I saw it just before you arrived and also a couple of days ago, was people so angry
00:04:20
at dating apps. Mhm. And I've got friends close to me who are furious that their only apparent option to meet someone these days. Go outside, go walk
00:04:31
your dog, go run, go with a bike group, go to a go do life and you will meet people. I mean, you create situations. It's not, you know, where are the available situations? Where are the the
00:04:45
options for meeting people? You create options. You know, you're at a you're at a coffee shop, you're ordering a coffee,
00:04:52
ask the person next to you if you can offer them one. Can do something that actually invites relatedness.
00:04:59
And I know the anger at the app. I get that, you know. I I'm actually quite connected to to to this whole world of dating apps. But I think that it's a
00:05:11
tool. Use it but don't make it become the replacement for the multitudes of situations. Yesterday I sat on a plane. I spoke for 3 hours with two people just because
00:05:24
there was no Wi-Fi. It was just an amazing conversation and and all of us at the moment we landed said to each other, "Wow, if we had had
00:05:35
Wi-Fi, we wouldn't have talked to each other one bit or five minutes and then be done with this." It's all these
00:05:42
situations that we don't take advantage of. We used where we used to always talk
00:05:48
to people. And I think if you just rely on the app, you will go through a loop. You'll go on it. You'll swipe, swipe, swipe. You'll respond with the least amount of effort possible because you've
00:06:02
so burned out already from doing this that you don't really want to give much of yourself. If you don't give much of
00:06:08
yourself, you're not going to get the kind of responses that you want. Then you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with anybody. But
00:06:14
you don't look at your own laziness that is not particularly invited for someone to actually want to match with you. And
00:06:20
then you say now I'm tired of this. So now you get off the app for 6 months. You take a break. You say I'm done with
00:06:25
the apps. And then six months later you say I don't want to meet someone. And what do you do? You go back on the app
00:06:30
instead of thinking of the multitudes of situations where you can actually meet people. And it's become so weird to talk to somebody. you know, you can sit next to someone and at the at the counter and
00:06:43
it's like you're a weirdo if you start talking to me instead of, you know, why not? Cuz even in the situation of your
00:06:50
plane ride, if there had been Wi-Fi, those people wouldn't have wanted to talk to you. So really, regardless of your attempt, you would have been met
00:06:56
with, you know, rejection to some degree, social rejection. Maybe, maybe. But you know, the original app, if you really want to understand
00:07:07
the gamification of that, it was really done as a way to not have to put yourself out and have to deal with rejection. But do you rejection is a
00:07:18
major feature of relationships. Learning to live with people who say no to us is essential. Have you heard this story of the guy who tracked his Tinder
00:07:30
swipes? And the story is that he swiped two million times to get one date. And you can kind of see this is him here. This is the image of the of the swipe. So it says this guy swiped 2 million
00:07:46
58,000 times. He got 2,000 matches from that. Mhm. Which turned into 1,200 chats
00:07:54
which turned into one date. Such a system is failing a huge percentage of people. This is the chap on WhatsApp on Tinder, I believe it was.
00:08:05
This is Here he is. I'll put him on the screen so everyone can see. Mhm. And you can kind of see the the photos that he
00:08:10
he led with on his dating profile. He probably shouldn't be holding a massive fish. I'm not sure many women are into
00:08:15
that, but Oh, he's got the fish picture. Yes. Yes. For people like him, what's the honest advice that someone like him
00:08:22
needs? Because you know clearly dating apps aren't going to work for him which is a lot of us from what I read. But how many hours he should also have put on
00:08:28
the amount of hours that he Oh it does have that. So has the hours too. So has the amount of time he's been a member of
00:08:34
the apps just over five years almost six years. Yes. I mean the first thing if if
00:08:40
you sat in my office and you told me this I would not spend my time discussing what you're doing on the app.
00:08:46
I would discuss what you're doing off the app. And if you ever are even off the app,
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I mean, have you the amount of hours of swiping that you've done, obviously this
00:08:57
is not yielding anything. Why are you continuing? 5 years is an enormous amount of time in your life. I feel sad
00:09:04
for you. You know, have you tried any other ways? Have you have you been with with your friends? Do you have friends? Have your friends introduced you to people? Have you gone to places where
00:09:16
you are more likely to meet people? I don't know what you're interested in, but if your fishing is one of those things, you know, maybe even at the fish
00:09:23
market you could meet, but I mean more of it isn't going to give you more of it. It's just going to make you more
00:09:29
frustrated. So, if you were sat there, there's a rigidity to this. It's like, what are you trying to prove? You know, go try something else. If you're trying
00:09:39
to park in a space that you can't get in, at some point, don't you go look for another space? Is there an element of
00:09:46
this where, you know, from what I heard from dating apps, there's only a small percentage of men that could basically
00:09:51
get all the opportunity if I I'll put the numbers on the screen, but yeah, I know the holes. Yes. And a large
00:09:58
proportion of women get lots of opportunity because lots of men swipe for But opportunity for what to be swiped does that mean? There's and then
00:10:05
what the main thing is can we have a conversation about emotional capitalism you know I go I try I I I try to get the best I try to shop you know I try to to
00:10:17
maximize my chances but fundamentally the app originally was broadening your circle. It gave you the opportunity to meet people that you would otherwise not meet. There was something very beautiful
00:10:30
about that. From that it became a commodification. People treat each other like [ __ ] People ghost each other left and right. People tell each other things
00:10:41
and then disappear. People don't have to say, "I'm not interested in seeing you again." They just close the shop. And
00:10:49
the misery is not because they haven't met someone. The misery is the treatment that this kind of semi anonymity enables
00:10:57
you. You don't have to be polite anymore. You don't have to treat people with minimum decency.
00:11:03
And that's what hurts people. That that makes people bitter, angry, doubting themselves. A lot of things like that.
00:11:11
It's part of the challenge that I have so many apparent options. Now, as someone on these dating apps, it's kind
00:11:17
of like going to a when you go to like Asia or Thailand and you get the menu and the menu is so big, they'll like
00:11:22
make anything you want. So, you find it hard to choose. And also any choice you make, you realize that it's come at the
00:11:28
cost of so many other things you could have had. So it's less special, it's less scarce. And in a world of Instagram
00:11:33
and dating apps, it appears that I have 100,000 options. Yes, it appears that you have many options. And it appears
00:11:40
that you have a paradox of choice. And it appears that you constantly are dealing with the FOMO of what else is around the corner. But the interesting
00:11:46
thing is when I work with people, I spend a lot of time reading reading what they actually post. Even a peacock is more creative than us, you know, in how they attract people, in what you say, in
00:11:58
what, hey, what's up? want to hang. Is that giving you any energy in your body? Okay. I mean, this is half the the messages.
00:12:10
I'm watching. I'm chilling. Okay. Well, keep chilling. It's like where is the energy? Where, you know, there's something about called flirting, attracting someone, showing an interest,
00:12:22
etc., etc., etc. What's a better thing for us to say? Oh, man. You know, show interest. I saw something in your picture. Uh, I'm wondering, you know, if we went to listen to music, what's the
00:12:34
first band we would go to listen to? Something that says you are a person with life, with interest, with
00:12:40
curiosity. Show curiosity. It's probably the first thing that you do when you are drawn to somebody. I guess if I've been
00:12:47
rejected so much, as you said, I've been kind of demoralized. The energy has been taken out of me. So now it's just become
00:12:52
this sort of cycle of just well then don't do it then go then do something else for a while. Don't stay in that
00:12:59
pattern. It's it's it's really depleting. But the thing about the choice is that we also are living
00:13:06
surrounded by algorithmic perfections and predictive technologies that are trying to deliver us always, you know,
00:13:13
on demand delivery of our everyday life always on without any friction and that is creating warped expectations that we bring to our relationships. That very
00:13:25
same expectation for perfection and forcopantic responses, you know. So the more we are
00:13:33
interacting with AIS and the more we are re receiving a different kind of response, the more challenging it will
00:13:40
be for us to actually deal with real people and and to face what you call rejection. Not every refusal is a
00:13:47
rejection. I mean this guy didn't write how many times he wasn't interested. He only tells you what's happening to him. He gives you the victim story. It's a statement of this thing doesn't work for
00:14:00
me and men don't get answered on the app and you get this whole plight but there's no context. I can't give you a
00:14:08
and I don't think anybody should actually respond to this without knowing all these other details. Is there an issue when you mentioned men there is there an issue that gender roles have
00:14:18
shifted and when we think about the plight of men they are you know this I think the single biggest killer of men over the age of 45 is themselves and the gender roles um have shifted so much
00:14:30
that often men have less purpose feelings of purpose and worth now than they used to have. Women and men have
00:14:36
got gotten closer to a point of financial equality. they've gotten closer um than the past which now kind
00:14:44
of also means that the role of a man if we think historically is less clear than
00:14:49
the role of a man maybe 50 100 years ago. To understand masculinity you have to understand the broader spectrum of relationships. So relationships used to be about duty
00:15:00
and obligation, loyalty and community. And happiness came not from what you do for yourself, but happiness came from having fulfilled your role and your mission and your obligation to the
00:15:11
people that you owe to your family primarily. That model is still the prevailing model in most parts of the
00:15:18
world. We shifted that model from duty and obligation to option and choice. And so now we have zero clarity and a lot of freedom. And we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone and more
00:15:30
confused and more filled with self-doubt. How how long have you been working with
00:15:36
men and women in a relationship love connection? 40 years. So what have you seen change in the conversation around men and masculinity? Like what are the different problems that men are talking
00:15:49
about in when they speak to you that they weren't speaking about when you started your career? I mean you can start with the subject of loneliness.
00:15:57
Loneliness, which is a a a general societal issue at this point, is definitely a major affliction, even more
00:16:04
so for boys and men. Okay? Loneliness was not a the story of men in the 19th century. Men hunted together, men hiked together, men gathered together, men
00:16:17
went to the bar together. Men had conversations with other men. Men meant met, you know. So the there is nothing
00:16:25
inherent about men that sets them up for more loneliness and isolation. That is really important to understand. Men, boys till the age of four and then
00:16:38
till the age of seven are highly emotional. They can articulate. They can so these are cultural phenomenons. These
00:16:46
are social developments. This is not biological. This is not intrinsic to men. One shift that's taken place which I'm keen to get your perspective on is
00:16:57
relates to sex. One in three men under 30 in the US reported no sex in the past year. That's triple the rate from 2008. Millennials and Gen Z's are having less
00:17:07
sex than any generation since records began despite more access to the dating apps we talked about. Yeah. In Japan
00:17:13
over 40% of young adults are virgins and they say many say that they have no interest in sex. Mhm. And lastly,
00:17:19
married couples in the UK and the United States report a steady decline in sexual frequency since the early 2000s. Yeah, I
00:17:26
wrote about that in Mating in Captivity that came out in 2006. That's 20 years ago. Yes. Because in order to have sex
00:17:34
with a female partner, if that's the man you're talking about, you need to be able to approach her. And so social
00:17:39
atrophy is directly connected to what is often called the sexual recession. I mean I in in mating 20 years ago I have an entire chapter where someone
00:17:51
basically says to me I'd rather have the security of an MBA than of a relationship.
00:17:56
Okay. And at that point already you began to see that adolescence in the United States it's not everywhere in the
00:18:03
world but certainly in the US and where more and more going in groups and having
00:18:09
less and less pair bonding and less and less romantic relationships that accompany you through your adolescence
00:18:15
that develop with you and you basically develop sex as part of a plot and not as
00:18:21
something that at some point your hormones force you to do. But a story, a story, a relationship is a story. And
00:18:28
then at suddenly you arrive at a certain age and now you're looking at this other person with whom you want to have sex
00:18:33
and it's like this unknown continent that you have to conquer. But but you've never spoken with those people. You have
00:18:40
very little female friends who are just friends who help you understand what happens with your girlfriend. You know,
00:18:47
there's an entire social map that has dissipated. So the sex is the last thing on the list of all these disconnects that then of course lead you to have this kind of statistic and that means
00:19:00
with partners they have plenty of sex maybe with themselves and others other other
00:19:06
but it's partnered sex here that is that is involved right they have sex on porn they have sex
00:19:12
they don't have partner sex you know do you understand when I say to you this is
00:19:19
a you can add that to your statistics too that the majority of men who come to sex therapy today for erectile
00:19:25
dysfunctions are young men in their 20s, not old men after prostate issues. Really? Yes. Why? Because they spend an enormous amount of time with themselves
00:19:39
watching porn and masturbating. Yes. Because in order to be able to maintain erections with a partner, it's an it's
00:19:46
an it's an attunement, right? It's a resonance. It's grooving together. But if you've always just been by yourself, then you only know how to kind of be connected to your own physiological
00:19:58
responses. I've worried about this before. I've worried that if I watch pornography that I will like desensitize
00:20:06
myself to the real thing. Depends how much, depends if what else is there in your life. I mean, it's not an all or
00:20:12
nothing thing. But what I'm saying is social atrophy. The the the gradual disconnect of the multiple touch points between people leads to then the
00:20:25
challenges that are also sexual leads to the kind of social isolation leads to people confusing friends and friendship. So they can have a thousand virtual friends but no one to feed their cat.
00:20:38
You know it's it's it's all para no one to feed their cat. Yeah. Who would pick up a prescription at the pharmacy? who
00:20:45
may pick me up at the airport, who will go check on on someone I care about if I happen to not be there. Yes. Who shows up for me? Because it's foundational to trust. Who can I lean
00:20:56
on? Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? So do you think the partnered sex is in
00:21:04
decline because because they're still having sex but they're doing it on their own now with in part sex is in decline
00:21:10
because social connection is in decline because people have less friends because
00:21:15
people the statistics on who you call to when you are in trouble are really terrible. People have no one to confide
00:21:23
in. So what how does that impact my sex with my partner? Well, you you won't have a partner usually. What this
00:21:29
statistic says is that there is no partner. Young men the age of 30 don't have sex with partners. This one here
00:21:36
from the British Medical Journal says that married couples in the UK and US report a steady decline in sexual frequency. Yes. Since basically the
00:21:43
internet. Yeah. So here's how this works. How much time do you spend in front of a screen during the day? Nine
00:21:49
hours. All right. And then you sometimes think now I'm going to go home and I'm finally can close the screens. Yeah. But
00:21:55
then you're so tired that all you can do is watch TV. Yeah. And then while you watch TV, you're also scrolling on your
00:22:02
phone. Yeah. And then while you're watching TV and scrolling on your phone, there may be somebody sitting next to you that does the exact same thing.
00:22:09
Yeah. All right. And then somebody may even say something to the other person who goes, "Uh-huh."
00:22:15
Doesn't look at them. Uh-huh. Very interesting. And you really wonder why people are having less sex.
00:22:25
It is. It's hard. It's hard. I'm going to say it is hard. Right. So, people are experiencing at that moment what I've
00:22:32
come to call ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss is when I'm actually with somebody, but I don't feel the closeness, the intimacy, the connection
00:22:45
from actually being with that person. I don't know if you're here or not here. Ambiguous loss is actually a term that
00:22:53
was developed by Pauline Bos, a psychologist who talked about it when you have a person who has Alzheimer or
00:22:58
dementia and they are actually physically in front of you but they are emotionally or psychologically gone or
00:23:06
people who are deployed or have disappeared or miscarriage where people are no longer physically there but they
00:23:12
are emotionally very very present inside of you. In both cases you don't know are they here or are they not. Do I say
00:23:19
goodbye or do I hold on? When I am doing this looking at your phone and I have like the a still face and I'm barely responding to you who said something
00:23:30
that may be quite important. You don't know are you here but you're not present.
00:23:37
I'm with you, but I'm not experiencing any of the things that one experiences from the closeness of being with you,
00:23:43
like Alzheimer, dementia, physically there, but psychologically elsewhere. Because it's not just that you're not
00:23:49
here, it's that you're in another world. You're gone somewhere. You may be talking to who knows.
00:23:56
And I guess this is the from reading your work, this is the crux of many an argument. The argument might sound like,
00:24:03
oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down, but it's actually linked to something else, something deeper under
00:24:09
the surface. I I just see it, you know, specifically when me and my partner have been away from each other for a long time and then we come back together. I always know
00:24:19
we're going to argue for the first like one or two days. It's not even going to be an argument. It's going to be
00:24:25
there's going to be a problem. And the problem is usually around expectations, which is I come in and my head is still
00:24:30
d like I'm still a million miles away, maybe on a different frequency, thinking about lots of things. And I think she comes into that space expecting
00:24:37
connection and I let her down. And we've tried to like call it out and say, "Listen, when we come back together,
00:24:43
let's just, you know, both make an effort in that direction." But, um, going back to your point of ambiguous
00:24:48
loss, it's like it's almost like she's trying to test if I'm connected to her. And I sometimes don't
00:24:56
do a good job of that because of how I come into that space. Like for example, right now I'm filming Dragon STEM, which
00:25:02
is a TV show in Manchester. And so I film three or four days a week, morning till night. The minute I get off from
00:25:09
it, I'm back with her. So you can imagine everything hits me at once. Do you what I'm saying? Yes. Like all of my team, all the to-do list, everything. Steve, we need you to sign this off all at once, but then I'm back in front of
00:25:21
her. Mhm. So she's experiencing that ambiguous loss. And the expectation was that we haven't seen each other for a
00:25:27
while. So this is, you know, so the question is, can you carve out a half an hour that's clean? An hour that's clean that connects. Yeah. But don't do that
00:25:42
just for her. You have to imagine that when you do what you do and it all is bleeding into each other and all your roles collapse into the same space that
00:25:53
it actually is doing something for you. to you, not for you, to you. And that to
00:25:59
to actually close the phone, tell people to call you in an hour, you won't miss a thing. And to actually drop in is going to give you a level of energy,
00:26:13
of oxytocin, of well-being that is way more important or as important as every supplement you may be swallowing. Yeah. Cuz you're It's true. I think it's not just for her. Yeah, I am excited to
00:26:26
see her and I am excited to connect in here. I just You said it wrong. You said it correctly. Like I just multi I try and multitask and I I let everything
00:26:32
down. Yes. The boss, the podcaster, the this, the that and the boyfriend is all in the same thing. Um it's an
00:26:40
indigestion. So you're a fan of scheduling clean time to do things. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's you can call it
00:26:47
scheduling, you can call it demarcation, you can call it delineation. We are social creatures who really orient
00:26:54
ourselves in time and in space. When everything happens to us at the same time, we get headaches. They not always
00:27:01
experienced as headaches, but in fact, we get a confusion inside. We're not here, we're not here, we're not here,
00:27:06
we're not here, it's just okay. So, you can call that scheduling or you can call it that, you know, when you go to place
00:27:13
when you go to the gym, you basically put on certain clothes, you prepare yourself for that. It's an activity that
00:27:19
comes with a role that comes with a set of things that comes with a delineation of time that makes you go to a certain
00:27:25
space where you're going to go do that thing and we this happens when you go out at
00:27:30
night this when you go out for dinner when you the same thing is for home. It's a if you are going to spend the
00:27:37
moment with her, however short it is, if it's clean and present, not just kind of
00:27:44
semi there, ambiguously present, it will change a lot of things for you, for her,
00:27:51
and for the two of you. Before we sat down today, I messaged a group of 10 of my closest friends. I put them all in a group chat, and I told them I was going to be speaking to you today. So I said to them, "Can you tell me what question
00:28:04
you have for Esther Pel?" These are all my 10 of my best friends that you wouldn't ever say out loud. How can I be
00:28:13
satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have been unfaithful with my partner in the past
00:28:21
and I feel guilty about it. Should I tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive,
00:28:28
but I don't know how to tell her. I love her but I don't find her attractive. Those are probably the most interesting ones. I think the one that I would probably uh
00:28:41
address is also uh about the infidelity and about your guilt. That's that and also to this person read state of affairs because I spent many years writing this book about infidelity and
00:28:55
trying to offer a very nuanced perspective on this very subject. But here's the thing to tell somebody something just because you don't have a clean conscience and
00:29:06
you feel guilty isn't always the kind thing to do. Ask yourself what will happen to your
00:29:13
partner or to your relationship for that matter if you speak about this now and who you doing it for. I think honesty sometimes is extremely caring and at other times can be very cruel.
00:29:28
It cleanses you and it destroys another person. deal with your responsibility and deal with your guilt and face the consequences of your behavior and treat
00:29:40
your partner with all the good things that actually say I now am willing to really invest in here and and make up for what I did without having to destroy
00:29:52
the narrative of the relationship because everybody has a story about their relationship. Everybody has a set
00:29:58
of shared assumptions about their relationship. And you are going to come in and just say, "Last year or two years
00:30:05
ago or five years ago, I did X, Y, and Z." And from that moment on, you rob the other person of their narrative. You may think you did something that was
00:30:16
honest, and sometimes that is the case. But many times you actually create an enormous amount of hurt. If you feel guilty, it's not bad. Deal with your guilt. Face it. Take your responsibility
00:30:32
and make your relationship the best relationship you can. And honor your partner in that way. Don't honor them by
00:30:38
putting your dirt onto them. That is a different way of saying and that is not for everyone. But I think that it is an important perspective to include here because we live in this era where
00:30:50
transparency supposedly is the the best model for everything. And people dish stuff out on other people that destroys them in the name of and when you're no longer
00:31:03
attracted to your person, you know, ask yourself what is that about? You know, is it are you paying attention? are you?
00:31:11
Um I think people often just think that attraction is something like I look at you and I should just instantly have a
00:31:19
response, you know. Um and sometimes it's also because I haven't really taken a good look and sometimes it's because what I'm looking at isn't necessarily anymore
00:31:32
what draws me in. And sometime it's it's not, you know, attraction is a very fle
00:31:37
fluid thing. It comes and go. When I'm angry at you, I'm not nearly as attracted to you as when I'm looking at you being so kind to someone and I say,
00:31:44
"What a great person you are and I just want to come and and I run over and I want to hug you and I want to hold you."
00:31:50
That's attraction, too, right? We're not just talking about the attraction to have sex with somebody. Attraction is is
00:31:57
in a in a is part of a story. It's part of a context. You know, if you think that you're just going to watch Netflix
00:32:03
for three hours, scroll on your phone for another two, and then turn around and say, "Oh, you're so attractive and
00:32:09
I'm so turned on by you." We you're you're off. You're off. This is not the way that it works. And then it's easy to
00:32:17
replace the person and to just think you're, you know, new shiny object. We will be very attracted again. But
00:32:25
attraction is a part of an interaction that these two words have the have the same ethmological root if there is zero
00:32:32
interaction. Now if you have a partner who neglects themselves, a partner who you know there's lots of things that
00:32:39
people also do that diminishes them. There was a woman in a in in a an event I just did and you know there had been some hurt in the relationship
00:32:51
and so she said I'm no longer attracted which is not the same as I have no desire. Basically she had no desire
00:32:59
and she said but I've worked we've talked everything out. We've discussed it. I said yeah you may have discussed it but your body shut down. Your body
00:33:06
carries the anger. Your body carries the hurt. Your body carries the feelings. and your body doesn't want to open. So
00:33:12
obviously it's not over, you know. So that's too is attraction. It is one of the most popular things that men whisper to me in silence, which
00:33:23
is they can't seem to get their and listen, I'm saying men because my the majority of my good friends that would
00:33:29
whisper to me are men. So it might be the case for women too. I just can't speak to that. is that they are unsure
00:33:36
how they could possibly be faithful for a prolonged period of time um and have one partner for a prolonged period of time. I think that you would be an interesting thing to tell your men
00:33:48
friends. Women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men. Really? Yes. That's not what men think. No. men think she's not interested in sex
00:34:01
and what they should probably replace it with is that she's not interested in the sex she's can she's going to have
00:34:08
in order to want sex it needs to be sex that is worth wanting for women to remain interested it needs
00:34:15
to be interesting and so the fact that women don't necessarily experience the same liberties at least historically and culturally all over the world that men
00:34:27
do. So they remain in their homes and they are not as unfaithful because there's been a double standard around infidelity forever everywhere in the
00:34:38
world. For this particular friend of mine, where is that message? What what should I say to him when he says, "How can you be satisfied with one sexual partner?" That's literally just so you
00:34:49
know that I'm not just I believe you. But some people at home might think that it's like me as a proxy of um but but
00:34:56
maybe you're not. Maybe you're not. Maybe you want to have more partners. Maybe you want your partner to have
00:35:02
other partners, too. That's not always so the case, right? He doesn't want to lose her. That's right. They've been
00:35:08
together I think 25 years. So, you know, it won't you may have sometimes frustrations if you there's a few options, right? You either say we have a relationship that can welcome other
00:35:21
people. We're not exclusive. But she's going to leave then because she doesn't want that. Okay. So
00:35:27
then the next thing is as best as you can make it as interesting and as fun and as pleasurable as it can be. And my
00:35:35
first question to you is have you been doing the same old for god knows how many years? And with that in mind I
00:35:42
wouldn't be surprised that you're not that attracted or that she's not that interested for that matter.
00:35:47
So if you want to be satisfied or more satisfied, I mean you have a dialogue you know and the more satisfied means
00:35:57
bring more of yourself and and and make this experience more erotic, more pleasurable, more playful, more fulfilling. You may remain frustrated and you may
00:36:09
say I would love to have other people and for that matter maybe your partner wants would would want it too but that's
00:36:15
not the kind of relationship that she wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't thought about other people and it
00:36:20
certainly wouldn't mean that if she fantasizes she fantasizes about you. So everybody is keeping their secrets here
00:36:28
you know. Um, and then the next thing is, are you putting more emphasis on the fact that you're not as satisfied having
00:36:35
one sexual partner, or are you putting more focus on the fact that you're going to make this sexual experience with your
00:36:41
partner as pleasurable and rich as can be? If you find yourself more on the complaining side, then you're going to
00:36:47
be constantly more unsatis dissatisfied. I think much of it is actually he and many others want the best of all worlds. And in life, we're not willing to accept trade-offs. Yeah. So, and you're saying
00:37:00
you're saying make a decision. If you want that life, then be honest about that life. If you don't want that life,
00:37:05
then invest in that thing to make it better. Yeah. That's the other alternative. Be
00:37:10
bored with the food you eat. Go buy other food and and and and cook at home and make it more rich and more
00:37:16
interesting. If you don't want to have the same dinner every night in the house, the question is what are people
00:37:21
doing to make their relationships more vibrant, more erotic, more alive? I mean this is really you by the way it's not
00:37:29
about having more sex. You can have more sex and and not feel much. It's about making it more alive and vibrant. That
00:37:36
is what much of my work is about is cultivating the eroticism and the aliveness in relationships
00:37:42
on the on the personal front. And you ask people what do you do to make it rich and interesting and and you find
00:37:50
the laziness, the complacency, the constant same old same old and then the complaint about it and then you say that is that is really self-defeating. Are you frustrated with people as No, I
00:38:03
smile at it. I I I I just I I smile at the the way that we can lie to ourselves. I smile at the way we can complain about others and as if that we have no
00:38:17
implication. I smile at the way we don't want to take responsibility for actually getting the things that we really want.
00:38:23
You must see the same patterns over and over again. those ones I do not all but this kind of pattern which is actually
00:38:30
why I've expanded to from only working in the romantic sphere to working also in the workplace because relationships are richer than just this and I think
00:38:43
that this friend I would have a five minute conversation with him and I would ask him these very questions I would ask the partner also those very
00:38:55
questions and I would have a few ideas. It's not uber complicated. You going to record me
00:39:03
to him? No, I'm just Okay. What would you say to him? What's his name? I I should call it name. Let's call him John. John.
00:39:14
So, yes, John. It's we are we are not necessarily uh curious only about one partner. Many people would like to have other partners. in the context of your relationship that is not an option for
00:39:28
you as I understand. So if that is the situation and you really deeply care about your partner and your relationship with her, then the next question is
00:39:40
what do you do to energize your relationship to bring playfulness, curiosity, imagination, eroticism as in life force, as in
00:39:50
aliveness, not as in sex to your relationship? Are you bringing the leftovers home and the best of yourself goes to work or are you also bringing your creativity, your energy, your
00:40:03
curiosity to your relationship? My sense is that if you do that, there is a good
00:40:09
chance that you will actually have a more satisfying erotic connection with your partner. That doesn't mean you
00:40:15
won't have interest, curiosity, fantasies about others, but it will free you from this position in which you just
00:40:22
kind of say, "I'm bored. I'm not satisfied. I would like a little more diversity." And all of that. And just for you, do not imagine that you're the
00:40:33
only one in your relationship who thinks this way and wants this. It's just that
00:40:38
you may have a partner who doesn't want the consequences of it. That doesn't mean she wouldn't fantasize about the
00:40:45
plurality herself. I'm going to send that. Um, please listen to the ad hoc intervention.
00:40:56
Yeah. Just need a honest response. Have you ever done that on your podcast? And Pel said, "Women are often more quickly bored with
00:41:13
monogamy than men." And that is the secret that people do not understand. That means that in order for her to
00:41:19
remain engaged, it has to remain more engaging and interesting and fun and pleasurable. And if it's just to get it done and just to do it for the sake of doing it, then she really can often
00:41:31
spare it. And while men are much more able to remain actually contrary to what he describes to remain interested that doesn't mean they don't want others as well but they can remain more interested
00:41:43
in their partner without having to change it like that. And it is interpreted as women are less interested in sex rather than women need more in
00:41:54
order to remain interested. They need more of the emotional stuff. Not necessarily. Not only they need more
00:42:00
imagination, more risque, more connection, more attention, more of a lot of whatever is hurt thing. Right.
00:42:07
Okay. It's it's one of the the most important things I learned actually that that kind of turned it around for me
00:42:15
because once you begin to look at it like that, it it plays with this classic gender division. Men want, women
00:42:22
doesn't. It's boring. It's it's like it becomes true just because we say it all the time, but that doesn't mean it is.
00:42:29
This is true for a lot of these gendered things. Um, so my friend replied and the
00:42:34
essence of what they said, yes, he said, "She's right. Full stop. The intimacy in our relationship has died and it died so
00:42:41
long ago that I think part of me doesn't feel like I can revive it anymore. We're so used to the relationship being off."
00:42:47
Okay, put the put the mic on. Okay. Yep. All right, John, here's what I would suggest. Um, I think that you can just simply say I, you know, Steve
00:43:00
approached me and asked me if I had a question for Estelle and I just threw out this thing. At first I was just kind
00:43:07
of flippant about it. I just thought what do you do when you you know but in fact when she answered I realized you
00:43:15
know that this is a bigger thing between us and this is an emptiness and a gap that we allowed to create and that I
00:43:22
have contributed to and I don't just want to leave it at that. So I thought I'm going to sit down and actually write
00:43:28
to you. I want to just write some of my thoughts because uh I think when we sit we avoid the subject, we circle around it or I avoid it or I'm defensive about
00:43:40
it or anyway whatever it is that I've done. I don't know you enough, John, to know the details of that. And then you
00:43:46
just really say, you know, something died a long time ago and I feel awkward about it, but I miss it and I miss you
00:43:52
and I miss us. And I would like to know if you are willing to re-engage with me and for us to rekindle. It's desire goes through intermittent eclipses. It's like
00:44:03
the moon. It disappears, but it can reappear. And I would love to invite you to re-engage with me to bring back the light, the spark inside of us because we
00:44:15
can do it. We are more than just this. And because just living side by side, I don't think is going to be enough for
00:44:21
either of us. And I'm prepared to do my part. Would you be willing to do yours? That was beautiful. That was beautiful. And then let's see if it still answers us before we end.
00:44:37
I made the biggest investment I've ever made in a company because of my girlfriend. I came home one night and my
00:44:43
lovely girlfriend was up at 1:00 a.m. in the morning pulling her hair out as she tried to piece together her own online
00:44:50
store for her business. And in that moment, I remembered an email I'd had from a guy called John, the founder of
00:44:57
Standstore, our new sponsor and a company I've invested incredibly heavily in. And Standtore helps creators to sell
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00:45:09
handles everything, payments, bookings, emails, community engagement, and even links with Shopify. And I believe in it
00:45:16
so much that I'm going to launch a Stan challenge. And as part of this challenge, I'm going to give away $100,000 to one of you. If you want to take part in this challenge, if you want
00:45:26
to monetize the knowledge that you have, visit stephenbartlet.stan stan.store to sign up and you'll also
00:45:33
get an extended 30-day free trial of Stan Store if you use that link. Your next move could quite frankly change
00:45:39
everything. Are you hearing a lot of couples in your practice increasingly say either member of the couple that
00:45:46
they don't like having sex? Not more than before. I wrote a book 20 years ago that was all about the dilemas of desire. You've always heard it. I always heard it. No, I don't think that
00:45:58
there are fundamental changes around that. I think the changes are the fact that people are spending less for time
00:46:04
together where they are actually attentive to each other. They're half there. Their attention is fragmented.
00:46:11
They're multitasking all the time. The that's what is changing. And if you have less connection, less attention, less intimacy, less in why do you think that
00:46:22
people are suddenly going to be turned on? But is the sex getting less interesting? No. Their life with each
00:46:27
other is less interesting. And this the last time when I spoke to you like this, you told me why you shouting at me.
00:46:38
Their life is less interesting. The sex is the is the consequence of of seven other things before. God, they haven't said anything interesting to each other. They haven't laughed. They haven't
00:46:49
kissed each other. They haven't looked at each other. They haven't barely touched each other. And suddenly the text the sex needs to be you know all
00:46:55
hot and and and and passionate on what freaking basis. Their life is not interesting.
00:47:02
Their communication, their interaction, their conversations, their attention to each other, the fact that they matter,
00:47:09
the fact that their presence means something in each other's lives, that's what is all connected to long-term sex.
00:47:15
Long-term sex doesn't come just for because you I look at you and I'm and I'm all hot.
00:47:21
it it it's a different mechanism. So you're asking a question that happens here and I am telling you if all of this is rather boring and uh unengaged.
00:47:37
It's like at work you know I'm doing a lot of this stuff around work now. It's like if the engagement is low on what
00:47:44
basis do we think people are going to perform? The performance is here, but the performance is a response to the engagement, which is a response to the culture, which is a response to the quality of the relationships between the
00:47:56
people who work together. It's the same in the personal realm. What element of responsibility do I have in making sure that my relationship with
00:48:06
myself is great in order to have a great relationship with someone else? Cuz a lot of people like to blame. I think the premise is inaccurate. Okay, fix my premise. The premise is that it it's
00:48:19
time for us to begin to question the intense level of individualism and self thinking, self-love, self-care, self-fululfillment, self-awareness. It's
00:48:31
all about the self in front. And the presumption is that if all those levels of the self have been attended to, we
00:48:37
will be better able to attend to other people. So, what do you think about this culture of self-care and self-love? And
00:48:42
I think it's gone overboard. I think it's it's a distortion. I think it feeds consumerism. I think that there's a lot of elements of it
00:48:53
that are highly important. But we have completely lost the fact that what actually is at the root of well-being, happiness, longevity, meaning is in our
00:49:05
relationships and our connections with others as well as with ourselves. When you give to others, you will depressed. When you are when you feel like you make a difference in other people's life, it
00:49:16
makes you feel better chemically too. If you go on the street and you make some you give compliments to people and you
00:49:22
tell them that they look really great or this this beautiful what they're wearing and you've made a smile on someone's
00:49:28
face, your oxytocin levels go up too. Doing for others makes us feel better about ourselves as well. Not all the time and not every circumstance but that voluntary connecting and and and being
00:49:41
engaged with other people whereas being engaged with oneself. Have you seen at the gym how people are super engaged
00:49:47
with themselves lifting and but nobody's interacting with anybody. And many of these people go home and there's nobody there. Huh? It's not like they're doing this for someone that that's waiting for them. Relating to
00:50:00
yourself is not a goal in and of itself. It is a step to something, but it's not
00:50:05
in and of itself an achievement. The goal is relating to others. The goal is is yes, is having meaningful relationships, meaningful connections
00:50:16
with other people and other causes that are beyond yourself. Part of why we are so miserable and so unhappy and so is
00:50:24
because we are so constantly focused on ourselves. There's a world, there's nature, there's
00:50:30
politics, there's climate, there's people, there's poverty, there is a ton of things to be interested in. There's
00:50:36
art, there's creativity, there's a lot of things that are beyond us that is beyond maximizing and optimizing and
00:50:43
hacking and focusing on myself and naval gazing. And I am a therapist and I work with
00:50:50
individuals who I am helping to have a better relationship with themselves and deal with what stands in the way to
00:50:57
relate to others not what stands in the way to feel good about me period. With gender roles reversing, have you seen men get increasingly emasculated by the success of women in your practice? And
00:51:11
have you seen also the woman get sort of frustrated with the man because he's now
00:51:17
not the bread winner? There was this stat I saw that said again rough numbers 70% of women expect the man to be the
00:51:23
bread bread winner. But then there's this bigger social narrative that actually no 50/50 or you know equality
00:51:29
is the case. Um and I was sat here with a guy who runs runs the men and boys clinic. I think it's called the men and
00:51:36
boys institute or something. Richard Reeves. Mhm. and Richard Reeves was a stay-at-home dad and then his partner, you know, and doing all of this work
00:51:46
about men in equality that, you know, a self-proclaimed feminist, I believe, and then his wife turned around to him one
00:51:52
day and was like, you know, and I've heard this quite a lot. I've heard from my successful female friends that part of the reason they think they can't find a man is that
00:52:03
men feel emasculated by their success. And on the counterpoint, I'm wondering if it goes the other way. Can I take this a little differently? Sure, please. Whatever. Emasculation is a word that
00:52:15
doesn't exist in the feminine. It's always been a masculine concern. Which is part of why I said to you that masculinity is an identity that constantly has to prove itself. Mhm. If
00:52:29
it was so solid, it wouldn't have to constantly have to show you that it really is serious and it's it's the real thing. There is, you know, those things do not translate on the feminine side.
00:52:42
The word loser doesn't exist in the feminine either. And this is historical. This is not new.
00:52:49
That men have had the challenge with powerful women is not new. that women have wanted men to be both powerful and
00:52:57
nurturing is not new. That fathers have often been as tender toward their I think that there's a the for me the the the engagement with some of your
00:53:09
question is that it plays into a whole discourse about men and women that at this point somehow puts them completely apart. each one kind of more and more angry at
00:53:22
the other side. And I don't really want to participate in that. The women are talking about the useless this and the
00:53:27
men are talking about the [ __ ] that and I don't find that helpful. People I don't think it's true. I think there are fathers and men all over the world doing everything they can
00:53:40
to save their family, their wives, their you know it has nothing to do just with how much they earn. The world is filled
00:53:46
with people who want to give a better life to their family and to their children. Men who work day and night in
00:53:53
order to provide. And I think that to turn this conversation into that section that in that we are referring to is true. It exists but it is not a fair
00:54:05
rendering of men, of masculinity, of fathers, of brothers, of husbands and of wives. um that there is a group of women who are out earning the men. Yes, women have
00:54:18
out earned men for a long time in all kinds of industries, not just at the higher levels. Um that men have stay
00:54:26
have not been home as primary parents. I think gay couples have shown us a whole
00:54:32
new range. It's like it's time to kind of move on a little bit. Do you know when you say that we need to know how to
00:54:38
relate to each other? And I think you said that it starts with being aware of ourselves.
00:54:44
Is that roughly what you said that it starts with having a sort of a self-awareness of yourself? I think that
00:54:50
the it's a constant combination because what I'm saying is that in order to have self-awareness, you need to understand
00:54:58
your connection with others. Your self-awareness is not developed here alone by myself. You get to know
00:55:05
yourself through your relationships with people. It is in the presence of another that we discover ourselves. And this is
00:55:13
in part why I'm asking these questions because I think for a lot of men, we've understood who we are by how we relate
00:55:18
and the role we play for others historically. So like I kind of understand much of who I am when you see
00:55:24
me with my partner. Yeah. Because I will grab the door. I will grab the bags. I will help solve problems in a more
00:55:30
logical like I'm a very like tell me how to fix it. And you understand the I understand myself by being how I relate
00:55:38
to her. taking care of her is part of my identity to me. So in in such a world, I
00:55:45
think the question becomes like what is it to be what is it to be a man? And if I don't know what that is, I find it harder to relate to others. One of the
00:55:54
things I love to do, but that's not on a societal level. That's me in my work. when I do retreats, relationship
00:56:00
retreats like we have one that I'm going to do in in October in Greece and and I
00:56:07
have I do fishbowls and I put all the men in a fishbowl or all those who identify as men for that matter and I have the women just listen the people around
00:56:19
and for an hour they or more or two they talk about everything you just brought up their challenges, their frustrations, their hopes, their aspirations, their loss. loses their self-doubt, their
00:56:30
shame, their shadows, and people listen without judgment, without opinions, just receive the the gift of having somebody be willing to
00:56:41
expose themselves like that. It's extremely moving. It's very beautiful and you learn a ton. And you learn how
00:56:50
much of your projections are, you know, standing in the way. how much you you you make assumptions without really
00:56:56
knowing how hard it is to truly listen. That's when it becomes to me beautiful, worthwhile and and things change. Things become softer and people start to weep
00:57:09
in front of total strangers and you realize humanity is bigger than gender. Gender is important, super important, but there is another layer that is just our humanity. And at this moment in our
00:57:23
society where there's tons of uncertainties that connecting on the human level to me supersedes some of
00:57:30
these gender wars. There's lots of it. I don't and and I leave it to others to comment on that. But my work is to
00:57:38
create alternative conversations, better conversations. Are you hopeful? Honestly, in those moments I'm very hopeful. But are you hopeful when they leave the retreat and they go back onto
00:57:49
the algorithms? I hope that some of them will do that and some of them will actually experience a profound change you know but in the moment I feel like I
00:58:01
can do something I'm hopeful when I can do something when I can contribute when I can create something that's really
00:58:07
special that's you know I'm not hopeful when I'm helpless when I'm passive so in
00:58:14
those moments I am hopeful because something really beautiful is happening you know when people connect at a deeper level it is very very meaningful be it
00:58:25
at work or be it at home I mean it it's anywhere at this point where I can create these connections people I mean it's sentence that I take with me all over the all the time it's the quality
00:58:37
of your relationships will determine the quality of your lives and my work is about helping you have better relationships be more confident be more connected I I I can analyze a lot of
00:58:50
these statistics but I don't know what to do with it. Be more confident. Yes. What is confidence in that regard? Confidence is when you are able to see yourself as a flawed person and still
00:59:03
hold yourself in high regard. That's from my friend Terry Real. But it is a great definition of confidence. It's not when I when I know when I'm sure. It's none of that. It's actually
00:59:16
when I see myself as flawed but I still hold myself in high regard that means I'm confident. And is there is there work one can do to get to such a place? Yes, of course. Work and life
00:59:30
experience and maturity. But for a lot of people their work and life experience knocks them down to make them think they're just a thought they're just a flawed person.
00:59:41
That's what I thought when I was in my 20s and 30s too. And if I made a mistake, I could obsess about it for 3
00:59:46
weeks. Now it's 3 hours, sometimes 3 days if it's really bad. But you know, you do you you learn to accept you make mistakes and life goes on and you try
00:59:57
again. So there's no shortcut to No, no, no, no. Is there anything that builds on
01:00:03
itself? The nice thing about it is that it builds on itself. It adds layer by layer, step by step. Is there anything one can do to accelerate that process? Why?
01:00:15
So that we can become more confident quicker. No, that's called arrogance. When a when a when a 22 year old, you know, sometimes it's arrogant. I mean there listen, there are things you can
01:00:27
feel confident about very early on and and you've tried them. And then there's other things. It's also not I am
01:00:34
confident. I'm confident about certain things. You can trust me on some things. You should not trust me to get you to a
01:00:40
certain place. neither on time, neither without getting lost. So I have zero confidence in that area, but I'm quite confident in some of the things that I do. And confidence doesn't mean that I
01:00:51
know or that I'm right. It's that I'm prepared to do things and be mistaken and not know and try again. Two different people can go through the
01:01:02
same experience and one of their confidence can build and the other one can lose confidence. Yes, that is the
01:01:08
biggest mystery question. Why two people with the same story? For one, it becomes
01:01:16
what brings their resilience and what gives them the drive and what makes them be people that are engaged with life and the world. And for the other person, it's what broke them. It's what crushed
01:01:30
them. It's what that makes it so impossible for them to actually put one foot in front of the other. And if you
01:01:37
can ever tell me why this and versus that, you know, why this person to it is one of the great mystery questions for any therapist for that matter in general. Why the same circumstances
01:01:49
build the strength of one and become the weakness of the other. There's clearly some kind of a pair of sunglasses in
01:01:56
between what happened and how I perceived it or something. There must be some I you know there's a lots of things
01:02:02
but what we do know is that for many people who have major adverse circumstances but manage to turn use them and turn them and and really make a
01:02:13
beautiful life for themselves. It usually there was one defining factor that differentiates them from everybody else who had similar circumstances is that they had somebody who believed in
01:02:24
them. a coach, a teacher, a neighbor, not necessarily a family member actually because the adversity is often in the family. So, somebody who believed in you
01:02:38
when you didn't believe in yourself and didn't give up even when you were [ __ ] up. I had um a lady called Dr.
01:02:44
Lisa Feldman on the podcast recently who's a neuroscientist and one of the things she said to me has really stayed
01:02:50
with me and I think about it a lot and I talk about it a lot which is um she said to me she told me the story of a young
01:02:56
lady who grew up and had some uh an aggressive uncle who would like beat her and this young lady she was good in
01:03:02
school she slept well everything was fine and then many years later this young lady was watching Oprah Winfreyy's
01:03:08
show and it was about domestic abuse and there was women on there crying and talking about their trauma and all those
01:03:14
things and essentially this young lady suddenly started to experience the symptoms of trauma. Mhm. Unproductive in
01:03:21
education, couldn't sleep as well and visibly traumatized. The trauma hadn't appeared hadn't there was wasn't
01:03:28
symptomatic up until she watched this show with Oprah. And it made me think that is there a possibility that some of our trauma not all of it but some of it is
01:03:40
like contagious i.e. We give meaning to it when someone tells us the meaning of what happened to us
01:03:48
like are we giving meaning to the things that happened to us and it goes to what we were saying here about you can go through the same two thing but interpret
01:03:54
it differently do we inherit the meaning externally from somewhere you know it's
01:03:59
interesting because I think about this a lot with things like anxiety I'm like it feels like you know I know the world has
01:04:05
changed and we're less connected but it does feel like had I not known that anxiety existed, I
01:04:12
probably I'm unsure whether I I would have personally experienced it. I think that the anxiety culture actually kind
01:04:19
of made me anxious. It made me label the feeling. And I'm just wondering if you have a perspective on this idea that we
01:04:24
like give meaning to our experience and then that yes of course all the time we give meaning to everything. We are meaning making
01:04:38
machines and if you don't do an individual meaning attribution you get a collective cultural social attribution.
01:04:46
In our society we may call it anxiety. In another society we may call it the ancestors are unhappy.
01:04:54
Somebody is a spirit is knocking at your door. Somebody has not been properly mourned. Somebody is being um degraded.
01:05:03
So, so there's every every ill ease, every disease has a story, has a meaning, has an attribution. The words change.
01:05:16
That's on a cultural level. I think it's very important to not just individualize these things and think I give meaning.
01:05:22
You we give the meaning that our culture has taught us to give. You've learn you. So, you've kind of become you're part of
01:05:29
the anxiety generation. So you put you give words of anxiety, stress, burnout. There's a whole lingo that is that didn't exist 40 years ago by the way. I mean those words existed but they were
01:05:42
not nearly in the vernacular of the moment. They were not part of the therapy speak of dour you know they were
01:05:47
not on Tik Tok. So there were other words that were people used and you know every century has certain names. Hysteria we don't hear much about hysteria these days. That was a 19th
01:06:00
century thing. It's mental health now, you know. So, we changed the words, but we still are trying to give meaning to our ill ease. I guess this is a question of
01:06:13
identity as well, which is who do I think I am? And who I think I am will probably become who I am, at least as it
01:06:21
relates to relating to people. No, no. Who do you think you are is part of who you are and how other people see you is also a part of who you are. We are
01:06:32
constantly looking at ourselves from the inside and from the outside. We do not exist without the inter in
01:06:40
integration of also the gaze from the outside in. And it's a two-way street all the time. So if I think I'm a late person, you said, you know, get there on time. Um, then I'm likely to be late
01:06:55
off more because I can I've identified with that becomes part of my character. It starts to become how I predict my
01:07:01
future. And Lisa Filmore was saying to me that the brain is this prediction machine. So it's like predicting um what
01:07:07
to what it will do next based on the past. So my identity is like a prediction of what I'll become. And you
01:07:13
know, same I think of this maybe the same in relationships. Your behavior may be a prediction but that doesn't mean
01:07:19
your identity. Don't confuse identity with behavior. It's it's it's they are connected but
01:07:26
your identity is a lot more than your behavior. You know at GFK there are three lines at the airport. Yeah. One is for the
01:07:36
tourist, one is for the American passport holder and one is for the resident alien.
01:07:43
The tourist may have been living in the states for years, but they don't have the papers. So the internal definition is not recognized by the external. The
01:07:55
American, you may have been living your whole life abroad, but you were born in the US. So you have the papers, you have
01:08:00
the external recognition, but the internal one doesn't match. And then the resident alien is the one who has been
01:08:07
there a long time but doesn't have the is a guest of some sort right um and I find that a fascinating moment to understand identity when you stand there
01:08:19
what is internal what is external what is seen from other how others recognize you and think and how others define who
01:08:27
you are and how you define who you are and these these are conversations that the question that you're asking about trauma is a whole it's a different question because
01:08:40
the trauma is not the event itself. The trauma is often in the experience of the event without an empathic witness without in it. Yes. Without what makes an event traumatic is often the fact
01:08:53
that you experience something without an emphatic witness. Well, it's not the fact that the the the
01:09:00
you it's not the event itself. And so what happens is she sees this Oprah show and it's not just that she sees the women tell their stories but she sees Oprah with her unique kind of empathy
01:09:16
respond to the women and give value to their experience and acknowledge it and express the sadness that comes with it and the devastation that they may have experienced. And she she is the
01:09:30
consumate empathic witness who gives not just meaning to your story but because before you can give meaning you even have to acknowledge it. Mhm. You have to recognize that it even happened. And in
01:09:43
many of those situations it's the lack of acknowledgement that is the most traumatic. Not the thing itself
01:09:50
or not only the thing itself the fact that nobody even admits that this took place. So as she's watching this
01:09:58
empathic resonance in front of her, something opens inside of her that allows her to finally
01:10:05
recogn cry, you know, her do her own acknowledgement and realize what was done to her. That's a different way of interpret and I have no idea if that is true. But just
01:10:17
to give you another reading of what may have happened to this woman. Mhm. And for a while she will not sleep. And for
01:10:23
a while she because suddenly in order to finally come to admit something you need to feel safe to let it happen. And when you watch the opera
01:10:33
show with those women this is I just did the opera. So I I had the people and I see how she it's it's an amazing moment of being held and experiencing a
01:10:45
container that allows you to experience the pain that you've been holding in. interesting. I I was it's a very interesting um
01:10:58
alternative perspective especially this idea of this the empathic witness and the minute you see empathy shown to your
01:11:04
experience um in such a way yeah maybe you have permission to feel in a way that you didn't get to feel but also in that environment I imagine there was a studio audience and they were providing
01:11:15
empathy and there was Oprah and they were providing empathy and then you had someone she could relate to who in that
01:11:20
scenario was being held and had a label like an implicit label attached to their experience. But she does it without audience now. And um it's it's I think
01:11:33
it was a long time ago. So when she used to have her show many decades ago, I was my first time on the opera show in ' 87.
01:11:40
87 with a studio audience. Yeah. How was it? It wasn't a very powerful experience for a woman, a young woman as I was back then. It was just like what? Yeah. This is quite
01:11:54
embarrassing for me to admit. But if you know me well, there's something that you know about me which is a function of my
01:12:00
personality and that is that I lose everything. I've lost my wallet. I've lost multiple passports. I now actually
01:12:05
have two passports because there's a high probability of me losing one. And when you lose your wallet overseas, as I have many times, it's a particular
01:12:12
inconvenience because you also lose your driving license and your credit cards and those kinds of things. And that's why I'm so happy that our show sponsor
01:12:18
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Steven at checkout. I think B2B marketeers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of
01:12:57
quality. And when you try to be seen by more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise. But
01:13:03
that noise rarely shifts the needle and it's often quite expensive. And I know as there was a time in my career where I
01:13:09
kept making this mistake that many of you will be making it too. Eventually, I started posting ads on our show sponsors
01:13:15
platform, LinkedIn. And that's when things started to change. I put that change down to a few critical things.
01:13:21
One of them being that LinkedIn was then and still is today the platform where decision makers go to not only to think
01:13:27
and learn but also to buy. And when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of people who
01:13:32
actually have the power to say yes. And you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply
01:13:38
a sharper way to spend your marketing budget. And if you haven't tried it, how about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try. and
01:13:45
I'm going to give you a $100 ad credit to get you started. If you visit linkedin.com/diary,
01:13:51
you can claim that right now. That's linkedin.com/diary. So, if I made you president of the
01:13:57
entire world and your job was to prevent the the social atrophy, this decay of social connections and relationships and
01:14:03
you had to take three steps on a global basis to they can be drastic steps. You can delete mobile phones. Oh god. They can be any drastic step you want to take. I think that things are lived in
01:14:15
the details, not in the big things. Okay? You know, where was I recently? I went to a place and I remember making the comment. Everybody says hello.
01:14:28
People said hello. People were friendly when you when you went into a place, when you were on the street, when you went it was like I said, "Oh my god, I have I I have not been in a place." It
01:14:41
felt small enough but it wasn't small where people kept saying hello have a nice day this looks very good you know so it's that basic you make it a law you
01:14:53
have to say no I don't legislate these things at all I think it's more of a of a it's a cultural shift it's a it's a return to to to practices that still are
01:15:06
prevalent in many other parts of the world talking to strangers Yes. Talking to strangers. Okay. So, you're going to
01:15:12
make it illegal. It's an incredible thing to talk to strangers. Um, so Esteel makes it illegal not to talk to
01:15:18
strangers during illegal. No. No. I said don't bring the law into it. It's much more art than law. Anybody who these
01:15:26
days can make people laugh or sing together is doing holy work. So go sing with people or go because when you sing together you create you
01:15:38
create a collective resonance. You you actually are bringing that resonance that it is very empathic. It's very kind. It's compassionate. It's caring.
01:15:50
It's playful. It brings out a whole set of other things in people. And the third thing would be teach people how to have conflict. You asked me before when when when when you argue
01:16:03
with your with your partner. I think I think that the the majority of our arguments are about three basic things. And this is based on on Howard Markman's work, but you know, it's not the issue
01:16:16
you're fighting about. Actually, what you can often ask is what is it that you're fighting for? And what
01:16:23
people fight for when they argue whatever thing they're having a spat about. They fight for power and control.
01:16:31
Who makes the decision? And whose priorities matter most? They fight for trust, for care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I lean on you? Can I rely on you? Will you
01:16:45
show up for me? And they fight for respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? And does this all
01:16:52
translate to work? You've you've now started doing a lot more work with businesses and companies around sort of
01:16:57
their working culture and connection and relationships in the workplace. All of those things you just listed there, are
01:17:03
they also the reasons why our relationships are successful or unsuccessful in a work environment? Absolutely. So I actually have been
01:17:11
working with corporations and in the business world for quite a while um and have been talking in and speaking in for
01:17:18
with corporations and companies. What is new is that I I became an advisor to a number of companies in particular in this case with culture amp and and the
01:17:29
reason that became such a wonderful collaboration is because I brought my clinical expertise and they're bringing
01:17:35
massive amounts of data science people science 1.5 billion experience survey points. I mean it's just like so it's not no longer just my intuitive sense.
01:17:46
It's backed. It's And we created this card game because my original card game, people wanted the corporate was demanding for it, but
01:17:58
every time they had to take out the cards with the pink triangles, which were the sex questions in order to make
01:18:04
it work safe, safe for work. So I said, "Okay, let's create a game just for the workplace that will create meaningful relationships at work." And what's
01:18:17
fascinating is that what the research showed is that there are four major relational pillars that actually sustain
01:18:26
this quality of relationships in the workplace and they are directly connected to these three things that I
01:18:33
said we fight for. So one was trust, one was belonging. Okay. So on trust, how do
01:18:39
I know what what is trust in specific terms? What does that mean? Trust is a leap of faith.
01:18:46
Trust is a sense that that is really it's an active engagement with the unknown says Rachel Butsman. It's like trust is not I know for sure. Trust is I
01:18:58
don't know for sure and I'm willing to believe it. And that's the definition of the word trust. And in a work context, what does that mean? It means that I can rely on you. Yeah. On my team. Yeah. On
01:19:12
my manager. um that you uh you have my back. Yeah. That you're not going to betray me. You're not going to put your interests ahead of mine. You are not going to take
01:19:25
credit where the when it's not yours. Um that you care about me and that we are part of something together. So trust then connects directly to a sense of
01:19:36
belonging that we are part of a group of a company and in and I get a certain sense of who I am by virtue of my sense of connection to this group and the group defines me and gets my
01:19:50
contribution. So it's a mutual experience. Mutuality is essential to living organisms be it in nature or in social ecological systems. And there is
01:20:02
recognition means that there is respect that I feel valued that I feel that my that I contribute and that it is
01:20:09
recognized. This is essential because I could achieve and perform and meet the productivity goals and all of that but
01:20:15
if nobody pays attention to it, it doesn't really meet the need. But the biggest one is the collective
01:20:21
resilience. To me, that's the one that really stands out because resilience isn't an individual matter only. It's not just a set of traits that exists inside of you and that you need
01:20:35
to tap into in order to face adversity and all of that. Resilience is how we at this point in particular are able to respond creatively and adaptively and
01:20:47
flexibly to all the changes that are happening. The workplace is in massive flux, massive flux. And from a
01:20:55
relational point of view, it's huge. And it is basically at this point becoming no longer just a soft skills. It's becoming the new bottom line. Basically,
01:21:07
Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so much for the work that you do. I I when I've met you the first time, I was
01:21:12
convinced that you're in fact an alien from another planet because you have an ability to understand situations.
01:21:19
um at a deeper, more intuitive level than anyone I've ever met. Specifically as it relates to just like the human condition and the way that we are, the
01:21:26
excuses to make the patterns of a human and it really like shocked me. You were able to see through me in a way that I
01:21:32
did not like, but I appreciate it. Um and it's really remarkable. There's very few people I've ever met that are like that that have that ability. It's a really really
01:21:43
special thing. Um, and it's been the cause of so much healed and cured and fixed problems for so many of us. We have a tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they leave
01:21:55
it for. The question left for you is, how are you going to adapt to a world of AI and robots?
01:22:09
I am going to uh use AI as a tool as I just did an hour before I came here. I was in a meeting and we were generating ideas and uh and
01:22:25
one of us asked the AI uh exactly this uh what would you see is the next step in the collaboration between what would
01:22:35
be bold collaborations between Estelle Purel and Culture AMP the very company that with whom I created the cards and the AI gave us incredible ideas but it
01:22:46
was both we had AI and we had the people. The people could use the AI, the AI became way more relevant because it had the people. So, as long as I can use
01:22:56
it as a tool um to foster the communication and to generate ideas and between me and others, I think that um
01:23:10
I am still shaping it and it is helping me. I would hope that it doesn't just begin to shape me or us all and make us into a species that none of us can yet
01:23:24
imagine. Some people are very much looking forward to that new species. I kind of
01:23:29
like the ones we've been. We imperfect creatures. We're unpredictable. But there is something fascinating about human beings that has been the core of
01:23:41
my work. Thank you. Again, I'll link the cards below for everyone to go and get a pair. I think I'm I think I'm going to
01:23:47
use them in at the very start of the week with my teams. So, just to kind of create a bit of a space where we can connect with each other before we get into more difficult work, but also
01:23:58
there's other sort of work environments when I have new investments and stuff like that. It's really, you can do it one-on-one, you can do it on boarding,
01:24:05
you can do it offsite, but there is something about the weekly meeting, all hands on deck kind of meeting where we
01:24:11
do a card, one person each and I can tell you and especially when it's remote, which you are not. Yeah. But there everybody knows the the the
01:24:23
lackluster attention that you can get in a Zoom meeting with everybody doing five other things at the same time. You just
01:24:29
need to track the eyes. But once people start to tell stories like this, people get the others are
01:24:36
interested and are listening. It changes the whole dynamic. So, uh it's a beautiful ritual to have your weekly start with a few cards. Um Esther, thank you so much for all that you do. So, so
01:24:48
wonderful to see you. I feel like you you help correct me and uh in an important way and you do it with such
01:24:54
what was one of them today when you were talking about the dementia and the Alzheimer's and that ambiguous loss I
01:25:02
felt I felt that because I think sometimes sometimes I um I create that impression
01:25:09
and my one of my ex-girlfriends said that to me she said even if you're sitting next to me I feel like you're a million miles away and I remember
01:25:16
thinking it's such a horrible way to make someone feel you know and my girlfriend. It's what a wonderful thing it is for someone to want your attention
01:25:21
and to want you to hug them and to want you to care about them and to look at them. What a wonderful privilege that is
01:25:27
and to like insult that privilege by being a million miles away. I just thought this horrible thing it is that
01:25:33
you know how often during the day do you send just a little sweet nothing? I know
01:25:39
I need to do that more. I don't know. Do you know how much it changes a person's
01:25:45
Yeah. just to say that you're thinking about them as well because I do think about them but I just don't I don't you
01:25:50
know so you're saying it to me. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I need to say it to her. I'm going to say I'm going to tell her
01:25:55
now Esther. Okay. Life is lived in the details. It's all these small things. It's not it's like when you ask about the changing of the world. I I don't
01:26:08
think in these big things. And this, you know, when it's done authentically, it's not big and it Yeah. Okay. Okay. That puts energy into
01:26:24
a relationship. She said, "Oh, with a little heart face." She said, "Sweetheart."
01:26:30
And she's typing. Okay, you got it. No, I don't. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? Every
01:26:45
single guest on the diary of a co has left behind a question in this diary. And it's a question designed to
01:26:51
challenge, to connect, and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here in my
01:26:56
hand. On one side, you've got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it, and on the other
01:27:02
side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it. 51 questions split across three different levels. The warm-up level, the open up level, and the deep level. So,
01:27:14
you decide how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in
01:27:20
bedrooms, alone at night, and on first dates, and everywhere in between. I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at the diary.com.
01:27:30
This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the
01:27:36
show. So, could I ask you for a favor? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just
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that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my
01:27:47
power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback.
01:27:53
We'll find the guest that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.
01:28:00
[Music] [Music]