00:00:00
just a tragic story and a tragic ending it's hard to say if it's regrets but is
00:00:07
there anything different we could have done Nicola Kilner co-founder and CEO of
00:00:13
decim and the ordinary this is the unthinkable inspirational and tragic story of how she built a 2.2 Billion
00:00:20
Dollar Empire I always just had this feeling that the only way to Achieve Financial Freedom is entrepreneurship
00:00:26
and then I met Brandon Brandon Truax founder of decim and the
00:00:31
ordinary one of the fastest growing skin care companies in the world a success story the minute it launched we couldn't
00:00:38
keep it in stock producing 400 000 units every single day it valued at 2.2 billion US Dollars it truly happened
00:00:45
what felt like overnight and this is really where Brandon's Behavior started to change
00:00:51
gone from someone who there was just so much warmth it's just this coldness in his eyes I was suddenly pushed out of
00:00:57
everything and then I got fired Yusuf emails were being sent firing people and copying the whole company in everything
00:01:04
was played out on Instagram saying he was shutting down the entire company the shareholders had to step in but then
00:01:10
things just seemed to keep spiraling and I don't know what to do to help him we've got breaking news right now of the
00:01:16
founder of decim has died
00:01:23
foreign
00:01:32
what would you do if the person closest to you your best friend your partner the person
00:01:38
you've built your life with is seemingly lost their sanity overnight and went
00:01:44
from working with you to Turning against you this story is as profound as it is
00:01:50
heartbreaking it is as haunting as it is heroic of all the stories we've shared
00:01:55
on this podcast this is the most chilling it is the most hard to believe and right at the end of this
00:02:02
conversation there is a Twist that I did not see coming when you learn in the most tragic way
00:02:08
that history is just repeating itself an incredible business story an unthinkable
00:02:14
tragedy and a formidable entrepreneur that stood tall when most would fall
00:02:20
and a genius lost to the world too soon so pause take a deep breath because what
00:02:27
comes next is not ordinary it is certainly extraordinary
00:02:33
foreign [Music]
00:02:41
paint a picture for me paint a picture for me of where you have
00:02:46
come from so I think quite a traditional um you know because mum stayed at home
00:02:52
so she did do the cooking the cleaning in just a very caring uh you know Jesus
00:02:58
with my my children today and it makes me so happy because I know what kind of mum she was and just knowing that that love that they're going to have my dead
00:03:06
father was very um great sense of humor always very playful very inspiring very charismatic
00:03:13
always had kind of Big Ideas uh kind of high energy and my mum was much more
00:03:19
reserved more of an introvert my dad was kind of always there the people person always kind of very busy socially and
00:03:26
Mum was very calm dad would have a temper sometimes but you know nothing too much
00:03:31
and at that age at that young age sort of like around that 10 11 12 age what
00:03:37
were your aspirations and hopes for your future if I'd asked you where did you think you were going to end up
00:03:42
it's actually a combination of kind of almost two what I don't think needs to be extremes anymore but kind of I think
00:03:48
originally would have been seen as two one was actually a stay-at-home mum because I think I'd seen my mum
00:03:54
obviously just in that role and I've always been very maternal I'd always dreamed of having children except I
00:04:01
always wanted freedom I never wanted to rely on anyone else and I think I'd
00:04:06
always kind of been interested in entrepreneurship watch Dragon's Den from you know quite a young age I always just
00:04:12
had this feeling that actually the only way to really Achieve Financial Freedom is probably through entrepreneurship in
00:04:19
in some way so I always kind of had this dream of almost just doing something of my 20s kind of making all the sacrifices
00:04:26
to build up enough Freedom that then actually going on to have a family I
00:04:31
could make the choices to really spend my time where I wanted to is that is that why you went and studied management
00:04:37
studies yes well it was actually interesting because I never knew if I wanted to go to university or not
00:04:42
because you know I believe in University very much if you want to become a doctor you
00:04:48
want to become a lawyer you know there are there are subjects that you really need to learn business is one of those where it's always hard like do you learn
00:04:54
that at University or do you learn that in doing so I came across this course um which was business management in
00:05:01
company which is quite a unique course which was at Nottingham Trent University so it's sponsored by different Blue Chip
00:05:07
companies so Rolls Royce boots Barclays Tescos companies like that they take on
00:05:13
40 people into this course we would work four and a half days a week for whichever company are sponsoring us
00:05:20
and then the other half day was kind of our study time although there was much more than that and actually we were then
00:05:26
we'd go so I chose boots well we went through interviews our boots was my first choice and I was lucky to get
00:05:32
there boots for anyone that doesn't under know the story if you're overseas in America or something it's kind of like CVS or something isn't it pretty
00:05:39
much that's the equivalent um what's your so if we just pause it and what's your opinion now on
00:05:44
University when your children get to that age where they're about to make that decision you've got two young
00:05:49
children when they get to 18 years old and if they said Mommy I want to be entrepreneur like you what advice would
00:05:56
you give them based on your experience so I actually would always probably recommend doing a few years in a
00:06:02
corporate because I have to say at boots I learned so much you know you learn the things that they
00:06:08
do really well you learn the things that they do not necessarily wrong but just the drawbacks of being such a big
00:06:14
organization so I think you know more than going to University like those two the two placement years I did at boots I
00:06:22
learned incredibly so much and depending on the kind of person you want you know if you go to a big corporate it's so
00:06:29
difficult to impact the culture there because there's just so many people there's so much history
00:06:35
and if you are someone who's kind of got this strong drive to make a change
00:06:40
then you know entrepreneurship I think is just an incredible area and even if
00:06:46
it's not your idea but going to join a startup is just incredible energy and it
00:06:51
just would always be what I would recommend at that point if there was a key skill or a key set of
00:06:57
skills that you took from your time working in a corporate app boot that then proved to be incredibly valuable as you
00:07:03
went on what were those skills so when I was it so so when I graduated
00:07:10
I then stayed on and I was an assistant by to begin with and then I got promoted
00:07:15
to be um a buying manager for them which was really around relationships it was
00:07:22
about collaboration it was about looking around the world seeing new technologies finding the Innovation new brands and
00:07:29
then really hand-holding those which mainly were entrepreneurs to come into
00:07:34
boots to actually show them look this is how we could launch uh you know we had a stand it was called latest spines we
00:07:40
would launch a new innovation for a period of three months as a trial to see if it would work would boots consumers
00:07:47
like this if it did they would get a listing with boots kind of long term and that just really suited my skill set
00:07:54
because it was a very entrepreneurial role because actually you know I I very
00:08:00
much guided them with PR agencies and actually how to build the plan and
00:08:05
um you know we used to have the saying of like launch and love because actually it's one thing to get a listing of boots
00:08:10
it's another thing for your product to actually be picked and taken off the shelf like the listing is just the first
00:08:15
thing you know you you have to drive consumers you have to have that entire plan and I think it was just a really
00:08:21
good way of actually learning from working with supply chain working with Finance doing the checks with legal can
00:08:27
we do this what can we say it was a really good sense of actually working with so many different departments and
00:08:34
actually starting to understand I think consumer goods learning demand learning how to create it and so I feel like that
00:08:41
role was created which really just suited my my skill set incredibly well and I'm very fortunate
00:08:48
for that and then that's also how I met Brandon so I actually had a huge impact and obviously my my next stage too and
00:08:55
Brandon was a business you were maybe he had a business you may be looking at
00:09:00
yeah so he was with his previous business which was called indeed labs and we launched a couple of their
00:09:05
products through this program latest finds so I'd worked with him and I remember
00:09:10
you know and actually when I this sounds alien now so many years ago but you
00:09:15
couldn't check your emails when you left the office so often every morning I'd come in and I was dealing with a lot of
00:09:20
international entrepreneurs so I'd always come into like an inbox full of emails I always remember like looking
00:09:27
for his name because his email was always so full of energy he always signed off Smiles Brandon you know just
00:09:34
someone who's positivity his passion just kind of really Shone through that I'd always go straight to his emails
00:09:40
kind of open it and you know the launches that we did with Brandon indeed loves were some of the most successful
00:09:46
we did through the through the Innovation program and and he was just you know when he used to come to the
00:09:52
boots head office in Nottingham just it was bouncing off the walls with kind of this infectious energy and I remember
00:09:58
just from the day I met him thinking gosh I always want this person in my life because he just had this Aurora and
00:10:05
just someone who you knew wanted to actually also make the world a better place and kind of really cared about doing good and and doing things
00:10:11
differently and at some point you start having a conversation with him privately about launching a business your own business
00:10:17
and then he's launching his business right yeah so so I remember he suddenly left in dude Labs now indeed Labs he he
00:10:24
founded it it was a rocket ship it was kind of doing super well I remember getting this this message from him that
00:10:30
he left and just being like shocked as in like what has happened um
00:10:36
so then when he was next in London I met up with him and obviously he told me about his reasons for leaving he was going to do
00:10:43
this next thing and I'd always kind of had this this Viewpoint of wanting to do my own business and ever since I worked
00:10:50
in Beauty I found that you know I always had friends family everyone asking what's the best mascara what's the best foundation and just how we'd go to
00:10:57
TripAdvisor you know to look at kind of ratings and reviews for restaurants and hotels I wanted to create the same thing
00:11:03
for beauty that actually ranked the products so I told Brenda my dear and said I want to do this and like what do you think do
00:11:09
you have any advice and he told me he wanted to start something called decim which was from the Latin word for the number 10 and it wasn't designed to be a
00:11:17
beauty engine at that time there was a beauty concept but there was a technology concept there was a food
00:11:22
concept so kind of just lots of different ideas generating but with this Viewpoint of doing 10 things at once so
00:11:30
he said why don't you come and help do deci in with me and I'll help do the the beauty we went on to call it Beauty wise
00:11:37
with you so then obviously I made the decision to leave boots which um obviously I was at
00:11:42
the age of uh 24 23 24 and I remember telling mum and everyone's like oh like
00:11:48
you're in a really good business you've got a good like you're already achieving things but I just knew that I wasn't
00:11:55
meant to be there forever so I yeah I left 10 years ago and then it was the start of decim
00:12:01
I've got to say this idea of doing 10 brands at once seems like it's counter intuitive to all anything you might read
00:12:08
in a business book that speaks to the importance of focus um was there any sense in that in your
00:12:13
view so in in actually our office in in Melbourne we used to have on the wall focus is overrated because everyone does
00:12:20
tell you not to do 10 things at once and actually there were so many benefits to doing 10 things at once so first of
00:12:28
all it was this Viewpoint of trying to create this ecosystem of you know how do we have our own manufacturing do our own
00:12:34
comms in-house because and again it takes funds to set up that ecosystem but also you know so many
00:12:42
entrepreneurs which I understand why they're in this situation but so many entrepreneurs have
00:12:48
to Outsource everything they go to the pr agency they go to a lab they go to someone to do your r d and then you're
00:12:54
really just coordinating all of those efforts rather than I mean so it was a
00:12:59
privilege we could build this this whole ecosystem because then at the table everyone sat there everyone's generating
00:13:05
ideas and again you know if I think around like doing comms in-house it's a lot for one brand to pay but if you've
00:13:12
got 10 brands suddenly you can look at it as 10 of everyone's salary if I'm flying to Australia to me to buy a wall
00:13:18
do I want to present one brand or do I present ten Brands and also just this you know area of you don't know what's
00:13:26
going to until if you're in consumer brand until it starts selling you don't really
00:13:32
know what's going to be you can do all the research and all the insights and in the world until something gets traction
00:13:37
you don't really know what's going to work so also just set up this incredible structure that we could fail we could
00:13:43
keep trying things if we could fail relatively cheaply quickly and kind of
00:13:48
start the next thing what's the downside though of doing 10 brands so I'd say the
00:13:54
downside in in the later years is because the ordinary has become such a huge success when the ordinary took off
00:14:01
the other brands got pushed aside because it's very difficult if you have one brand that's really driving such a
00:14:07
huge portion of your revenues when everyone is you know facing high workload that always gets prioritized so
00:14:14
then you end up ignoring the other brands versus if they had a dedicated team in is something now we want to
00:14:20
actually restart our incubator engine and actually the only way we can do that is by having a dedicated team to that so
00:14:27
there are downsides I think the other thing that made a huge difference for us because we didn't have much money as a
00:14:33
startup and we obviously wanted to hire all of these people we couldn't afford experience so everyone who was hired was
00:14:39
pretty much straight out of of University straight out of college just applied for their first job
00:14:46
and actually that meant no one really had preconditioned ideas about the beauty industry about the way things
00:14:51
should be everyone was approaching it just with a almost a very practical viewpoint
00:14:57
and I think that made a big difference too with actually this how do we think differently how do we do what others
00:15:03
aren't doing it was almost never something that had to be discussed because people hadn't worked for the
00:15:09
other conglomerates for all the years soon after you become co-ceos with
00:15:15
Brandon yeah um I always think about co-founder relationships and you know people being yin and yang and what the
00:15:22
kind of right balance is for for co-founders in your case you the way that you came together was quite unique
00:15:29
it wasn't necessarily there wasn't an initial interest in being co-founders you were both going to do two separate things you then kind of got drawn
00:15:35
towards each other if I put your personality on this side and Brandon's here what are the the
00:15:40
differences how are they complementary but also uncomplementary so Brandon was eccentric yes he was I'd
00:15:50
say we both were both very passionate he was a lot more eccentric and I'm a
00:15:55
lot more calm I think would be a big difference but I guess but also from the skill set you know he was
00:16:01
um he was so into this like he was a genius when it came to science and he
00:16:06
was a tech person originally so he came from things with a very he didn't understand gray it was black and white
00:16:12
and actually that was quite a good way to actually approach the science I think behind beauty products and he was at
00:16:19
times short-tempered um I'd be the the kind of smoothing things out and he would kind of be a
00:16:26
little bit more hot-headed but again I think it was you know a startup culture is not for everyone but for me those
00:16:32
first few years were incredible but he also just had this amazing way of
00:16:37
making things fun uh you know like when we would plan trips to go on meetings he would be prioritizing which restaurants
00:16:43
we were going to where it's got the best ice cream what are we gonna go and do here and actually the work was something
00:16:48
that came alongside it he also had this you know he had this philosophy he
00:16:54
wanted to build a family he'd had you know a troubled upbringing
00:17:00
I think he'd always you know he'd he'd actually had this pattern I think of always leaving a business when it kind
00:17:07
of just went on the verge of success um Jesse and was his fourth business he had a tech business and he had two
00:17:14
Beauty businesses euroka then indeed before before decim and each time what hurt him was actually
00:17:20
leaving the relationships and the people behind so his Viewpoint of decim was actually how do we build a family like a
00:17:28
work family but I think he he was never work and I think that's
00:17:34
what so many of us felt weekends evenings like we wanted to be doing deciing because we were all friends we
00:17:39
were all eating together we were going to Niagara Falls on the weekend we were going to a theme park in Toronto like we
00:17:45
were just having fun whilst we were doing everything the part you said about he wanted to
00:17:51
build a family because he had a sort of troubled upbringing I'm trying to understand now how his upbringing you
00:17:57
believe shaped his perspective on how you assemble a company it sounds there like he was building the family he might
00:18:03
not have had or there's clearly some attachment challenges there if he wants to sell the brands but not the people yeah and and again the Heartbreak
00:18:10
associated with leaving these companies was all about losing relationships a lot of that speaks to something that must
00:18:15
have happened early yeah so I think it was around building a family of he
00:18:22
never wanted anyone to leave him and he wanted decim to to be a place of
00:18:30
belonging and actually even now we have belonging as our kind of Northstar like the most important thing anyone in our
00:18:37
team should feel is that they belong at decim whoever they are whatever they believe in like there is a place for
00:18:43
them at decim and I think that really comes from this like sense of family and I think
00:18:49
and you know again like I even look at my my husband's world I do think startups because
00:18:55
you're working in a very intense environment it does build relationships
00:19:00
far deeper than well I ever experienced at boots and that I think would exist in in corporates
00:19:06
so this sense of family I think you know we would have taken a bullet for each
00:19:12
other and I think even now like within within decimal you know we're 1500 people now but we still have so many of
00:19:17
those early team members it is but actually a very happy one yeah
00:19:23
this morning I did a talk and I said listen I'm going to say something here which might get me in trouble I'm like you've got to scale from a cult I was
00:19:30
like I always have to disclaimer and explain culture really bad of course and you know they manipulate people but this is what I mean it's that that sense of
00:19:36
dedication We're All in This Together inspirational founder Mission you all
00:19:42
believe in and you believe you're right regardless of what the outside world says you're on a mission you're sleeping under the debt you know yeah well it's
00:19:48
they always say that you know you can you can do like complain about your parents but for anyone else there's a
00:19:54
bad word about yourself even if they're saying the same thing you've said industrian's like that you know like you
00:20:00
can complete like in terms of like maybe there's not this process but anyone says a bad word you come straight to the
00:20:06
defense but I think it was just so much love and passion and again Brandon cares for all of us like he had so much love
00:20:13
that you gave it back and that's where it was so difficult you know when we when we went through the the unthinkable
00:20:19
and things became so difficult because it wasn't a colleague like you've just lived this incredible journey of us all
00:20:25
traveling together building something so special like just this such a sense of
00:20:30
We're All in This Together like even when times are hard like we've got each
00:20:35
other's backs and things may not work out but actually let's just have fun let's learn things and let's just keep
00:20:41
trying like let's never be afraid to fail and let's just do it together people hear that and they see
00:20:48
the outcome so everything you've described there is the outcome you've got this great culture people are dedicated
00:20:55
they're loyal they're on this Mission what people will be thinking because they'll be sat in their offices now working somewhere or they'll be building
00:21:01
a company of their own in fact this young lady came up to me this morning and asked me this question when I was
00:21:06
um doing this talk she said I've got this small team and I'm trying to create exactly what you've described that kind
00:21:12
of real dedicated kind of cult-like um company culture where everyone's in it
00:21:19
how how how does one create it it's so it's actually quite difficult to explain how
00:21:25
it comes together because in many cases from what I've observed it's not necessarily intentional
00:21:31
I.E there wasn't it wasn't like a strategic um drawn-up plan to make people really
00:21:37
care it was quite a natural thing that resulted in that sort of deep sense of care from the team members
00:21:43
um I'll offer up one thing which you said which I thought was spot on which people often Overlook which is fun yeah
00:21:49
people think of you know people think well we'll give perks and this but it's all the things that happen outside of
00:21:54
the work that seem to do most of the work in creating that cult and you you come up with the best ideas
00:22:00
when you're doing something on the weekend and you're not in that that kind of Monday to Friday nine till five Zone
00:22:07
that's when that creativity I think happens and I think you know people spend so long in the workplace and
00:22:14
that's why it's so important that actually people enjoy coming in the one thing that I say like is it's definitely
00:22:20
been like a purposeful shift is I look back at early startup culture and I
00:22:26
don't know if it's always kind there's very high expectations and again if
00:22:32
you're working you know I'm I'm calm Brandon is very high passion high
00:22:37
expectations you know there's this people feel like they need to work on the weekends and the evenings and is
00:22:44
that healthy even though actually is trying to get that balance and I think it'd be interesting you know and
00:22:50
again with my husband who's a different stage of startup I always just find it interesting around like I think
00:22:56
especially in today's world like we're so much more aware about mental health and burnout and actually how to be much
00:23:02
more respectful of balance which I don't know if we necessarily had back then but equally I feel like again
00:23:08
we're pretty much a bunch of young 20 year olds with Brandon you know being a little bit older who are all just happy
00:23:14
and loved what we were doing and when you start creating things and you start to see the the results of your work then
00:23:21
that drives you even further and then that makes it even more exciting because you know you can see what you're
00:23:26
achieving is actually meaning something do you think you could have achieved the success with decim and the ordinary and
00:23:34
the other brands if you didn't have that lack of balance and early cult-like
00:23:40
culture no and and again like you're thinking only in the early days everyone's around the same table you've
00:23:47
got predvey who's making formulations Dion who's doing comms and brand like everyone's just there talking coming up
00:23:54
with ideas and that's that collaboration is so special and you know you're you're
00:24:00
in WhatsApp groups and you're like have you seen this let's do this and also I think you know the other thing in the early days being agile is so important
00:24:08
and everyone was okay you could work on something in the next day there'd be a
00:24:13
change of decision or someone had a different review and you're like oh actually let's go in that direction now that gets harder I think as you get
00:24:20
bigger and actually there are many more teams and there's more people involved so that's interesting
00:24:27
um I have to say I agree um with with um any business I've ever been in I I look back at those first
00:24:32
what are 10 20 people in the way they behaved and that's ultimately what we scaled but it's that energy enthusiasm
00:24:37
that got us from like zero to one does that therefore mean that there's a
00:24:43
certain type of person you should be looking to hire at that early phase that
00:24:48
may be can't afford to have more of an unbalanced life
00:24:56
come on who's prepared to wear every hat so in our early days we would say yes to like we'd get an order from boots
00:25:03
if we didn't think we could fulfill it we would say yes and we'd figure it out afterwards and that would often mean
00:25:09
Brandon myself like all of the whoever was working in the office at the time we'd go and work in the factory we would
00:25:16
pull all-nighters making the products and you know back then I can remember with hand chemistry we had like a hand
00:25:22
crimping machine like we'd been but it didn't seal that well and about 1 in 10 actually exploded if you squeeze too
00:25:28
hard so we'd be like there at night like making them squeezing them like okay they can pass so you have to have people that are
00:25:35
prepared to get on production line to pack the boxes and again like you know my even later on like when it was you
00:25:43
know times around November Black Friday which you know more recently we boycotted and we well we have slovember
00:25:48
our campaign but those periods where it's busy everyone gets into the warehouses and they help ship the
00:25:53
products out so I think the ability to wear whichever hat is needed for you at
00:25:58
that moment is the most important skill set what do you think of this concept of work life balance
00:26:05
you know I had someone on the podcast the other day and it's called Alex samosie and he was saying that um he was
00:26:11
like people need to stop having a conversation around work-life balance because it kind of assumes that there is such a thing as a
00:26:18
universal balance that we should all be striking whereas as you described it you were happy
00:26:23
and you okay your life you might have been slightly one-dimensional but but you were happy and surely that happiness
00:26:29
is the most important thing and Alex hamosi says listen I do two things I work and I play video games that's it and I'm happy so stop telling me to do
00:26:37
work-life balance I'm happy yeah 100 agree and I think you know it comes down to what's what's the right balance to
00:26:44
you and it changes at different periods of your life so I was in my 20s I was
00:26:49
fine on my maybe sacrificed nights out and kind of doing other things but I was so happy being traveling all the time
00:26:57
being in this kind of Destiny and bubble creating all of these this magic and to me that's such a powerful concept around
00:27:05
how do we achieve balance in different periods of your life we're all going to have periods where we can be working
00:27:11
every hour and we love it and actually it's our it's our work but also it's our hobby it's our downtime because we just
00:27:17
love it so much then you'll have another period of your life where you know maybe you have a an elderly parent that needs
00:27:23
your support maybe you're going through some challenges you've got young children how do we step up and support
00:27:29
each other to say you know what I've got you here you do this I'll cover those bits for you because in another few
00:27:35
years maybe it switches around and again that's something that I think is is so unique to when we say a family culture
00:27:42
that to me is an example of kindness that I think really actually demonstrates it there has been a debate
00:27:48
it hasn't there about the use of the word family in the corporate world people think it means it kind of asserts
00:27:53
that there's a lack of boundaries and these are not you know Netflix's whole culture document which is like we're not a family we're a high performance team
00:28:00
um and I think I have struggled to figure out where I sit on
00:28:06
it because there are many elements of the family culture that I always want in my businesses that sort of care that
00:28:12
going above and beyond the way you know a deeper sense of relationship that's non-transactional
00:28:19
and then also on the other hand you don't fire your family
00:28:25
you know so what what is that balance between family and high performance team
00:28:31
for me family is about belonging and everyone just really feeling like they have a safe place to be and that they
00:28:38
are loved I think kindness sometimes is mistaken for weakness and and also I
00:28:44
think there's there's a conflict between the words being kind and being nice being nice
00:28:50
is is kind but can be superficial you know you see a stranger on the street you're like hi how you know you open the
00:28:56
door it's nice but do you truly mean like how are you are you just kind of passing it
00:29:02
if someone's not performing at work it's not necessarily a nice thing to have that conversation with them
00:29:08
but it is the kind thing because if your intention is to help them and the help may be this is maybe a different role
00:29:16
that we see in the company which we think you're more suited for it may be that we think you need this coaching
00:29:21
this training to get to where you need to be and it may be that look you're in this role but we're not seeing the
00:29:27
delivery here we actually think the better option for you is is outside and now when we've done terminations you
00:29:34
know we've done things around like how do we do counseling where actually it helps someone to look for another career depending on kind of what role it is and
00:29:40
the reasons why we're leaving because to me then that's a kind of way we're actually trying to help that person and
00:29:47
the other thing you know our business we we were like kind of this and we like had a rocket
00:29:54
ship kind of boomed and then then we came to a dip just after after kind of Cove it it hit me when I realized if my
00:30:01
numbers don't pick up again we're going to have to let people go because actually that is the consequence of business like
00:30:08
you're you're there to kind of do many things but ultimately like one factor of that is is to be a business
00:30:14
and to make money and if you start to not hit your numbers ultimately like you
00:30:19
can't lose money for long people will start to say you have to save money where does that come from head count and
00:30:25
I think that then hit me again that okay we have to perform so to be kind to
00:30:30
everyone we have to be a performing team so again I think you can be high
00:30:35
performing but by being kind I think you can make everyone feel safe and trusted that
00:30:42
again if you have to make the hard decision you're going to do it in the way to be as kind as possible and actually
00:30:48
you know have the action to try and help quick one before we get back to this episode just give me 30 seconds of your
00:30:54
time two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week
00:31:01
means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place but secondly it's
00:31:08
a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24 of
00:31:14
people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the Subscribe button means more than I can say and if you hit that
00:31:21
subscribe button here's a promise I'm gonna make to you I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show
00:31:26
as good as I can now and into the future we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going
00:31:32
to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show thank you thank you so much back to the
00:31:38
episode I heard you say something which was that you um you're the least qualified CEO ever yep
00:31:46
you don't sound like the least qualified CEO ever I guess you've been through some so
00:31:52
I definitely am again you know you have to I was there from the beginning
00:31:57
and being someone who can you know play a leader for an organization of 10
00:32:02
people 20 people 100 people is a very different skill set do you know we are 1500 people we now
00:32:10
have a majority ownership from sa Lord of companies who are a public company our whole world has changed
00:32:17
and rightly so because being a much bigger organization we have to be far more organized and planning and I
00:32:25
wouldn't say those are necessarily my skill sets and again when you know the the kind of dip I mentioned was a very
00:32:32
difficult period because we'd we'd just been on this rocket ship of you know even when things were difficult the one
00:32:38
thing that always we were always ahead of budget targets whatever anyone set for us we always were just over
00:32:45
achieving which feels incredible when you're in business like if you hit numbers and everything else just falls
00:32:50
into place and I remember like you lose confidence and I remember actually saying to to
00:32:56
Stefan who um is we reporting to it ELC he was like an incredible person but
00:33:02
each time when I used to say oh like you know this is it's not going right and I said like I'll resign like I'm not the
00:33:08
person but dad's like I need help like I was like I can't do this like I'm I'm not the CEO who
00:33:15
understands numbers in the right way who plans like I changed my mind and again like you think about all the things as as a as a startup you can do things
00:33:24
quickly you can change if you change your mind on a decision when you now have many more people working on it you
00:33:30
demotivate people you become chaos is fun in a startup in a large organization
00:33:36
chaos can become demotivating so then I was very fortunate that we did
00:33:42
bring in um a very incredible general manager who
00:33:47
joined us about a year ago and he has had such a transformation on the company because
00:33:54
he can't believe just the basics we didn't have in place and because we'd grown so quickly and it's now to get
00:34:00
that balance between you know there's there's areas we don't want any experience but decims when it comes to
00:34:07
like brand and Innovation our values things that we are so passionate about when it comes to supply chain and
00:34:14
scaling in New Markets we need experience so actually having the GM come in that
00:34:19
actually could kind of take control of those and then actually allow me to focus on the areas which I'm much more
00:34:24
passionate about which is the the brand area our people culture belonging social
00:34:30
impact it's just made a huge difference to the business so two things that you
00:34:35
offering up your uh essentially resignation from your your role when things were a little bit tricky
00:34:43
it's giving me imposter syndrome realistic
00:34:50
have you ever had imposter syndrome because you know saying this quote here about being the least qualified CEO ever
00:34:56
what is it from a traditional perspective for example if I went now to
00:35:02
you know another company with revenues nearing a billion dollars a year with 1500 employees I wouldn't be a good CEO
00:35:10
I think I could be a good people person I think it could help on values on brand
00:35:15
now obviously there's an argument of like a modern CEO and I think especially for there's no one more qualified for
00:35:22
decim than me because of the history but when I think about just the pure metrics and the size of the business
00:35:29
it needed someone with some more experience and again I'm a big believer on
00:35:34
you know and anyone who thinks they're the expert at everything they're not and
00:35:39
I think I'm a good person at relationships and hope you're bringing people on for the journey hopefully people feeling how appreciative and
00:35:47
truly grateful I I am that they choose to kind of be at decimal and give their role every day
00:35:52
but there are many areas that I'm not good at all and actually having trusted people to support that is amazing and I
00:36:00
always do think myself more you know it's kind of like the conductor of an orchestra like being aware except I'm
00:36:06
not very organized so the bigger you get then suddenly you do need someone that maybe has got more technical skills it's
00:36:12
interesting because when I asked that question about the Imposter syndrome thing I immediately reflected upon it and I thought
00:36:17
it's funny how imposter syndrome and self-awareness can sound very very similar
00:36:23
and and that's in fact from speaking to some of your team one of the things they repeatedly said to us was about your
00:36:31
self-awareness and I even reflect going back early to your time at Boots where you were considering contemplating
00:36:36
becoming a buyer and the first thing you're doing there is saying does that suit my skill set and what makes me
00:36:42
happy I mean your team said it they said your quote is that she isn't afraid to to tell you and she instinctively knows
00:36:48
what her strengths and weaknesses are but I think it's the only way to be authentic that you know trying to be
00:36:55
something that that you're not or something that doesn't make you happy is not really good for anyone and I
00:37:01
actually think like authenticity in today's world I think is a value that is is one of the most important because
00:37:07
otherwise you you get called out it'd be crazy for me to say that I'm good at the
00:37:12
finance piece I'm not it's not a strength but we have an incredible VP of Finance we've got incredible general
00:37:17
manager that truly understands it so I think actually just playing to your strengths and allowing others to play to
00:37:24
their strengths is actually what brings the authenticity I should probably read this your team said she delegates a lot
00:37:31
and very well she very instinctively knows her strengths and her weaknesses
00:37:36
she isn't afraid to bring on knowledge and talent for those weaknesses
00:37:41
her team says she's incredibly self-aware and also she is literally a
00:37:46
ray of sunshine how much did you pay Jenny in marketing 2017.
00:37:55
um you launch the ordinary in 2016. yeah at the end of 2016. at the end of 2016
00:38:03
and then 2017 is the ordinary's breakout year
00:38:08
breakout year how do you quantify that give us an idea the minute it launched we couldn't keep
00:38:15
it in stock it was and again from we'd come up to the ordinary was the
00:38:21
11th brand that we came up with a concept for wait that that violates the
00:38:26
name but we don't Focus so we can change our mind wow so we kept going and what's the
00:38:34
Latin word for 11. I don't know maybe maybe a company name change
00:38:39
with the ordinary I don't think we ever thought it would we never dreamed it would become what is what it's become
00:38:45
today we launched the ordering our frustration that there wasn't enough transparency in
00:38:51
the world of skin care and you know we took inspiration from the world of Pharmacy if you have a
00:38:57
headache you can go into a pharmacy you buy paracetamol you're going to be paying you know 50p
00:39:03
to three pounds it's a very small window no one can sell you paracetamol for a hundred pounds because you know the
00:39:10
ingredient you know the milligram the trust is there because the transparency has been in that industry
00:39:16
that didn't exist in the world of skin care which meant that if you walked into a beauty Hall to pick a skincare product
00:39:22
you may see actually a relatively similar formula being sold for 10 pounds
00:39:28
being sold for 100 pounds and actually not really understanding what's the difference you know is it the marketing
00:39:35
you're paying for we kind of have this assumption does like paying more mean more but if you go into boots and you
00:39:40
see a new hundred pound painkiller are you going to trust it are you just going to take the ingredient that's safe and
00:39:46
effective and trusted and I think the reason we're feeling frustrated was because for neod
00:39:51
we were really using brand new technologies that were very expensive and no one else was using these it was
00:39:57
kind of true innovation so we said well actually let's let's take this approach of people because
00:40:03
again the some of the ingredients we use in the ordinary they may have been around for decades that's not a bad
00:40:09
thing if something's been around for a long time there's so much research done there's so much safety and again just
00:40:16
like paracetamol aspirin we don't always need new if you've actually found a solution that has incredible effects
00:40:23
we presented the concept of the ordinary to two significant retailers to have our
00:40:28
you know big Partners now who both said no to launching the brand and this was when we were kind of still
00:40:34
at concept stage before we'd even um create like produce the first product they said it was too confusing white
00:40:41
boxes will collect dust you know you need to just rename the products to be anti-aging serum region serum
00:40:49
actually just what everyone else looked like in the industry and because we had these this umbrella
00:40:56
and we had different brands it gave us the confidence to say no because you know we we were doing okay for ourselves
00:41:02
like we could cover everyone's payroll we we kind of had traction with some of the other brands so we said no let's
00:41:08
let's follow our gut which again it's a privilege to be able to say that because I know for so many entrepreneurs cash
00:41:14
flow is is a killer and it can be so difficult to say no to a listing that you know could be worth significant
00:41:20
money but we said actually no we really believe that actually this transparency is what's missing in the beauty industry
00:41:27
so you know we the ordinary launched and it just honestly was a rocket ship that even
00:41:33
today we in throughout our VPS supply chain has you know we're producing 400 000
00:41:39
units every single day at the moment in our Manufacturing in Toronto we still have retailers if you go into
00:41:46
boots you'll still see lots of outer stocks on the on the Shelf like we still struggle to keep up with demand six
00:41:52
years later since we launched the brand and that has been it's just been an incredible story but I mean we look back
00:41:59
at 2017. we knew we needed kind of more money to scale so we started looking for investment which is how many months
00:42:05
after launch um oh the ordering was like three months old Desi M was four years old
00:42:12
um and again we we were doing okay like we had some success stories not anywhere near the scale of kind of where the
00:42:18
ordinary went to we met with different private Equity firms there was like another huge um
00:42:23
conglomerate who we had lots of meetings with and we ended up meeting with um Estee
00:42:29
Lauder Companies in April and it was eight weeks from our very first meeting to the deal being signed
00:42:36
which was due diligence negotiations everything it was especially for a
00:42:41
corporate with a board a public company it was it was just this huge energy from the moment we
00:42:47
came to Toronto the the kind of M A Team then they were like we we need you to come to New York we want you to meet
00:42:54
Leonard or we want to meet you meet you for Brits here last year we want you to kind of meet this team
00:42:59
and I remember seeing Fabrizio the CEO who have a huge amount of respect in admiration form
00:43:06
and the deal was done within like 30 minutes of meeting because they just saw this I think that energy particularly
00:43:13
from Brandon like Brandon and I were in the room like just this creativity this passion and the ordering was just
00:43:20
starting to kind of create this kind of rumbles and I think they you know ultimately they believed in the concept
00:43:25
they believed in what we wanted to do so they uh the deal signed in June they became a minority investor they they
00:43:32
took 29 of the company and I actually you know with Jesse and today we have had more time with ELC
00:43:39
than without ELC ELC the Estee Lauder Companies okay when Acquisitions happen I think
00:43:46
companies go from zero to a hundred percent you know we're at 70 they they
00:43:51
own 76 now with decim and it will go to 100 and next summer
00:43:57
and actually that process will have been seven years which actually is one I
00:44:03
think quite a forward I haven't seen many deals like that done I think between kind of a startup and and you
00:44:09
know a larger company but actually it's just been this amazing different chapters of us both getting to
00:44:16
know each other learning each other's strengths I think having a lot of respect for you know where where we need
00:44:22
help and where we kind of need to be left alone and so actually it's just been this really nice journey and you
00:44:28
know decim we're in our 10th year this year I'm in six years of those we've had the partnership of Estee Lauder
00:44:35
Companies 29 they took and I it's rumored the valuation was about 1.5 billion
00:44:40
uh in so in the the last in the 2021 investment uh okay right
00:44:47
yeah it was I think valued at 2.2 billion US Dollars and at that early stage I'm trying to figure out for your
00:44:54
four years into decim Estee Lauder put some money in what was the valuation at that point when they took the 29 it
00:45:00
would have been about 160 million okay Jesus okay okay super interesting
00:45:06
I mean it's a it's a very quick um trajectory relative to most companies in that space to achieve those
00:45:11
valuations in such a space of time we move on then from 2017 to 2018
00:45:18
um and this is really where Brandon's Behavior started to change
00:45:23
it truly happened what felt like overnight so at the the end of 2017
00:45:29
so so we we close the investment in the summer and again the ordinary at the end of 2017 is it's a year old it's having
00:45:37
this incredible just people are warming to it people are loving the concept you know I always
00:45:43
think the audience is like a community brand because it really was spread through Word of Mouth
00:45:48
endorsements and I remember my husband and I we went to New Zealand and Australia for for
00:45:55
kind of the the Christmas break and then I remember getting this call from from Brandon saying
00:46:01
you know you need to go straight to the airport with what it like he was like have you got your passport I said yes he
00:46:06
said you go straight to the airport now book a first-class flight come straight to Toronto on the next fly turn your
00:46:13
phone off turn your emails he was just like calm down let's let's be relaxed but you need to come immediately
00:46:20
so he didn't tell you why no but I could just sense it was an entirely different
00:46:26
person I was speaking to all of a sudden over that over that break in the
00:46:31
holidays I mean the flight from Australia to Toronto I think I was on the plane now traveling for about 20
00:46:36
hours I cried the entire way because I knew something really bad was happening
00:46:42
and I guess to just kind of towards the end of 2017 and again I have to say Brandon is someone who
00:46:50
he he would have like one drink in the month like he barely drank
00:46:55
as far as I'm only we spent so much time together like we didn't do drugs was just uh he was high on energy and happy
00:47:02
he's just drinking diet coke and eating fries with ketchup type person towards the end of 2017 he'd become
00:47:09
intrigued I think by magic mushrooms and just kind of this idea of you know can you access
00:47:16
different parts of your brain and again this was just something like in Amsterdam where it's legal and it's kind
00:47:21
of just this almost just this inquisitive actually how does how does the Mind work
00:47:27
and I knew he'd planned to go to Amsterdam over a new year to kind of experiment with some of his learnings on
00:47:33
kind of mushrooms and in different dosages and and I'm someone who's quite anti-drugs like I've always been kind of
00:47:40
I like to be well behaved I don't like to kind of break and break any rules um in in those senses
00:47:47
and I just had this awful feeling and I came back to Toronto and he summoned
00:47:54
you know if around 10 of us to have this meeting in The Distillery straw which was one of our audacium stores in
00:48:00
Toronto's that we we closed for the day and everything had changed
00:48:06
and it was just like talking to a stranger he had this like coldness in his eyes
00:48:12
and he'd gone from someone who you know the second you see him there'd be hugs there was just so much warmth you know
00:48:18
all of his emails would have hearts on it was just kind of all of this love in in messages and kind of just being
00:48:26
it's just this almost kind of zoned out cold person
00:48:31
that suddenly almost felt like kind of just had this like
00:48:38
it's like he didn't understand there was no understanding anymore between him and any of us
00:48:46
he spoke around things where you know we've we were too caught up now
00:48:51
in the concept of time so for example he said to me like that the next day when you know with me for coffee and you know
00:48:57
our routine for the previous four years has been he texted me he's like I'll pick you up at 7am
00:49:03
would you go to a coffee shop we'd get you know breakfast and head to the office and he suddenly was like there's
00:49:09
no time anymore I'm gonna meet you in the coffee shop tomorrow but we don't need to tell each other a time we'll
00:49:15
just be there when we're supposed to be there and I remember finding it really hard because he truly was is such a genius
00:49:21
and a visionary and this has happened so quickly and I remember like ringing ringing Sean and
00:49:27
saying like does he does he have a point like are we too caught up in time like is this just like are we taking things
00:49:35
the wrong way so I had a lot of confusion just around like how can something change so quickly
00:49:41
and again this is someone who you know over the four or five years of being like insanely close to him you know we I
00:49:50
was in going to Toronto at this point for like three weeks out of the month and we'd have every dinner together breakfast together lunch together every
00:49:56
weekend together and never seeing any episodes of of mental health or anything changing so
00:50:03
suddenly have this drastic change of someone you loved but someone suddenly who feels like he's completely
00:50:09
closing the door to you and kind of pushing you out this wasn't a different person who was angry shouting crying
00:50:18
scary it was suddenly very cold to everyone and then
00:50:24
so where everyone's very confused very upset and then there's business things that
00:50:30
start to happen that make no sense that are actually quite mean you know canceling a brand on
00:50:36
Instagram a big partnership we had done with someone canceling a retailer so he went on
00:50:42
Instagram and told them said to your following on Instagram that this Brand's no longer going to exist so before
00:50:48
telling them yeah so we'd spend all of this time with Dr esho uh building this brand I need Doctor yeah and then it
00:50:56
canceled like tijon found out on Instagram with everyone else that this brand that he'd put all this passion and
00:51:01
energy in was ended retailers were ended it became it was just horrible so I did
00:51:09
challenge him and what happened when I challenged him was I got a meanest meanest response around how I just don't
00:51:15
understand him of all the people I I should understand and just yeah and be like you look back
00:51:22
and like nothing was making any sense and then I got fired because again and he wasn't technically allowed to like
00:51:28
you know you need board approval and all of these things but there was there was no Russian rational actions at this time
00:51:36
so this this just accelerated so quickly and then it's so difficult because then
00:51:42
anyone who's trying to help gets pushed out then everyone's and again like in the
00:51:48
background I can because it's all of these early team members like everyone wants to help him and protect him and I
00:51:53
was like what do we do and you know that's the hardest thing about you know mental health and drug abuse
00:51:59
which then like Circle together But ultimately when it's affecting someone's brain
00:52:06
they can't necessarily recognize that themselves and someone said to me it's like you're speaking polish to them
00:52:13
you may think you're speaking English a Common Language there is no understanding in that conversation of
00:52:20
what each other is saying and actually that that did start to make sense
00:52:25
but it was just very difficult and I think you know again I got fired in February so like a month into this
00:52:31
and it's been the worst month of my life like truly like horrendous like so
00:52:36
emotionally difficult what happened in that break do you know have you got any suspicions
00:52:42
yeah I think he's well yeah he was very curious and I think he he took
00:52:48
everything to an extreme and I think he'd been reading a lot around psychedelics and kind of how to access
00:52:54
different parts of your brain and I think he experimented a lot during that break and do you think that triggered
00:53:00
some kind of psychotic episode yeah so on that point about
00:53:06
being fired yeah how were you fired I knew it was coming wow why
00:53:12
because he'd I'd gone from being we were inseparable so I was suddenly pushed out
00:53:18
of everything excluded from conversation conversations emails he came to London
00:53:26
he was in London at the time when I when I got fired and again when he'd landed in London from the minute he landed to
00:53:31
the minute he left we would be together and I I didn't I barely saw him how did
00:53:39
that feel so hurtful because hurtful and confusing and just really hard and
00:53:46
and I guess you have like a whole team who are like what's happening everyone is scared because it's a very strong
00:53:51
personality who now could take anything anyone in the team said the wrong way and kind of someone could be at the end
00:53:58
of quite you know an explosion of anger which again was never there before
00:54:04
so it's just a very difficult situation of one where you just you don't even understand it which I think is what
00:54:10
makes it so hard but I'd also I think at that point we didn't maybe know the extent of how
00:54:17
how things were going to spiral from there or how mentally and well he was because I mean
00:54:23
six weeks earlier he'd been he'd been the Brandon like we all knew and loved
00:54:29
so it was such a quick turnaround and change and I remember getting a call from from
00:54:37
the the person who ran our HR at the time and I remembered saying like I know like
00:54:42
he wants to fire me and obviously she said yeah and then um
00:54:48
and I remember just like crying my eyes out actually at the time the um
00:54:54
yes I'm from Estee Lauder Companies who was on the M A Team
00:54:59
who's based in New York um he was in London at the time and it went to meet him
00:55:06
I know I'm just saying like I'm scared because I don't know what's happening and this is something it's just
00:55:13
entirely changed and I don't know what to do to help him
00:55:19
and I remember then you know the confusion of someone's now acting
00:55:24
it doesn't matter what Agreements are in place this is now someone acting irrationally
00:55:31
but we've got to act in a certain way because it's someone who is so unpredictable in the way
00:55:39
and again I think at this point I hadn't really realize how bad things were going
00:55:44
to be and you know probably things like maybe it is me like maybe I'm not the right person to be there anymore and
00:55:50
maybe for whatever reason like he thinks I don't believe in the vision or things have just changed
00:55:57
my husband who's like the most supportive person in the world but also very calm takes such a like relaxed
00:56:06
approach to anything like nothing is a problem to him in his world in a very positive way
00:56:11
he like booked as a holiday he was like let's just get away like you know it's been like a very hard
00:56:17
month right now Brendan like doesn't want you we can't change that so let's just focus on just like taking a moment
00:56:24
just to kind of reflect um and obviously I'd always wanted children we'd be married for a few years
00:56:30
at this time I'd never wanted them last I wasn't like the busyness of decim
00:56:35
because I wanted the time to enjoy being you know a mum of young children so we're like less
00:56:40
let's try and have a baby so I got pregnant in the March and
00:56:46
and a month later yeah and um but then at that point things were
00:56:51
spiraling with Brandon and you know abusive emails were being sent
00:56:57
uh targeting everyone he was firing because so many people within the
00:57:03
business firing people and copying the whole company in copying retailers in pressing
00:57:10
and it became clear like things were really unwell um and I remember
00:57:15
I think being about six weeks pregnant I was being targeted on like some of
00:57:22
these emails now I'm thinking
00:57:32
let me announced it on Instagram
00:57:40
something like that happens you know someone's not rational like
00:57:48
no good human being does that to someone and then it became really hard because
00:57:55
I was still in this situation of loving him so much wanting to help him feeling
00:58:02
just not knowing what to do also having like the company like having
00:58:08
everyone started coming to me asking me like what should we do because you've got someone
00:58:14
saying things that make no sense and being you know he was just very very
00:58:19
unwell so I was still trying to help people in the background keep things going with the business
00:58:25
let's see you know trying to be in the early stages of pregnancy which now see the whole world knew and
00:58:33
and it was just really really hot and I remember when he first got sectioned feeling such a
00:58:40
sense of relief that he was finally gonna get the treatment he needed to get better
00:58:48
and it was actually in in London when he got sectioned for the first time and
00:58:54
then he he was out five days later and then that was the start of you know over that 2018. he got section five
00:59:01
times across London across Canada Across America and each time
00:59:07
would just get released a short period after and then that's when I started to
00:59:13
to almost kind of you you lose the hope of like how can how can we help this
00:59:19
person when he keeps getting into these terrible like you
00:59:24
know to get sectioned you're in a terrible situation for authorities to actually come in and remove you for your
00:59:31
own safety but then this would just happen again and it's it's almost like there wasn't
00:59:37
even a connection between like the countries and the medical systems and and kind of like how that all works it's
00:59:43
confusing but he he has in the in the June you know he
00:59:48
was sending me videos crying and just saying like I need you back I don't know what I've done like I'm so sorry and I
00:59:55
remember feeling like I could I can't help if I'm not there maybe if I'm with him maybe I can help
01:00:02
him so I went back and the first week I went back we went
01:00:09
to Morocco because it was like you know we need to plan like we need to get the business thing sorted again and and actually
01:00:15
it felt like a normalish conversation so I remember feeling like you know maybe
01:00:21
maybe things can get better and I remember the week in Morocco just things were worse than ever things had got even
01:00:27
worse at that time I'd been away and it's just it's a helpless situation and
01:00:37
I have so much empathy for anyone who or want the people who struggle with
01:00:43
with mental health and addiction but also for the people surrounding them because it's a very toxic environment to
01:00:50
be in one because you're you're you're being abused but secondly
01:00:56
you're losing the love person and thirdly you just feel like you can't help because again
01:01:03
with so many other health issues when you're not battling with the brain
01:01:08
there's more acceptance of treatment to get better but that just doesn't exist in in the same way
01:01:15
I can tell how much you loved him unless he was like and this is what I find so hard he really was so kind
01:01:23
and like would do anything and again like you know when I talk about Desi and being a family in his estate in his will
01:01:30
every single beneficiary is a decim employee like that's that's this family
01:01:36
bond that was just so strong so just to see that go and again like everything
01:01:43
was played out on Instagram Brandon was doing all of these posts in terrible
01:01:48
situations and it's a very hard line I mean we'd we
01:01:53
talked to Instagram like this it's such a free it's such a difficult you have
01:01:59
free speech you have someone like it's it's a platform like people can can post what they want you know some things
01:02:04
would get removed others wouldn't but it was just an awful situation to be
01:02:11
in and I think everyone just had such a huge desire to help him and like in this
01:02:17
time period I mean even like essay Lord companies were behind the scenes they were so supportive to us but again you
01:02:23
have you know you go on Instagram you see all these comments why is no one helping him what are you all doing
01:02:28
and again it's it's so hard because people don't see that situation of it is pretty
01:02:35
much impossible to help and then you have people that say look someone has to reach Rock Bottom like
01:02:41
they have to just reach Rock Bottom until they get better so then in in October
01:02:48
Brendan had done an Instagram post basically saying he was shutting down the entire company and there would be no
01:02:53
more decim and obviously that was the point when the the shareholders had to step in
01:02:59
because suddenly you know there's I think at that point we had 800 employees like there was everyone's jobs on the
01:03:05
line and and again you think look maybe maybe this is the the kind of bottom
01:03:10
point he needs to reach to actually understand he needs to get help so that's when the court order happened
01:03:16
to remove Brendan from the company which again is an incredibly hard situation because no
01:03:23
one wants to remove the founder who they care so much about and you know a Founder who is such a Visionary and is
01:03:31
the brand like do you feel like he is being forcibly removed from his own company is very difficult but you've
01:03:38
also got a situation where everything was Publix that every email sent had the whole company on CC had all the
01:03:45
journalists had all of our retailers had customers on Instagram posts were obviously going to
01:03:51
everyone so you're also living this out in public which I think also makes it a lot harder
01:03:57
so in October he got removed as the CEO
01:04:02
reflecting on what you said to me at this earlier in the conversation about him wanting to keep the family together
01:04:09
and be part of the family based on his own early experiences maybe his own um Family upbringing that must have been
01:04:14
particularly painful for him seems like he'd designed designed this company to be a family and that's clearly one of
01:04:20
the most important things for him so for him to be ousted from his quote unquote family must have been tremendously
01:04:25
painful did you ever learn about his early years did you ever learn about his his own
01:04:31
background his family yeah I actually interesting because
01:04:38
for how close I was to him when he became unwell I actually learned
01:04:43
how much I didn't know about him and I think you know he just
01:04:49
I think he had a lot of challenges of never feeling accepted for who he was which makes me so sad because
01:04:57
me as a person and especially like the destiny that we have now like we truly accept anyone and
01:05:04
love anyone it doesn't matter like who you choose to love where you're from like you belong to us and like we are
01:05:11
grateful if you want to be part of family you are you are the family so I find it hard that he never felt
01:05:18
that except he never felt like he could be his true self which I think I only learned more when
01:05:25
he became unwell how um like he'd had Riad he'd had this
01:05:31
incredible life partner for 10 years that I didn't even know about a romantic partner yeah
01:05:38
husband a boyfriend pretty much yeah and again like those things when I mean that's a
01:05:44
big thing to hide from someone why was he hiding it well I can only think that was him
01:05:51
feeling like he wouldn't be accepted for it and I mean because it's a man yeah
01:05:57
and I mean well in the world today but I mean especially the beauty like it's
01:06:03
I'm so proud of the the you know the the diverse team we have like he would have been so accepted but I mean he was from
01:06:10
Iran I think he maybe just had well I don't know I can't say the
01:06:15
reasons yeah and but he clearly never felt like he could share with the world who he truly wasn't I mean that's that's
01:06:22
a huge thing to carry what about his parents so his mother died when he was very young
01:06:29
and I think he had a challenge relationship with his father but again I only learned a lot when he became ill
01:06:35
and I also have a battle with if he didn't want to tell me
01:06:42
he didn't want people to know so there's kind of a balance of you know I have so many things that gosh
01:06:48
I wish I could ask him what are those things about his childhood about who he is
01:06:55
about why he felt the need to keep things secret and then also just to understand because
01:07:02
you know people say to me like like did he have any signs of mental health challenges before
01:07:08
and and again it depends what you consider traits of mental health but no I mean he was eccentric and he was you
01:07:15
know high intensity in many things that I think are are traits often our Founders I mean I would love to
01:07:21
understand more like how do we support people with
01:07:26
mental health because again I mean for someone to be sectioned five times why was he sectioned
01:07:32
he would just be in very bad situations please come and get involved and then drugs drugs and again it's so hard to
01:07:40
diagnose um because yeah they both kind of spiraled spiraled each other quite
01:07:46
dramatically he was doing meth in the UK I read as well but and then he got arrested from yeah and and again my my
01:07:54
limited understanding of drugs but I think crystal meth is about as as bad as it gets I think in in many ways
01:08:01
and so then in October he got removed and again I remember feeling like maybe maybe this will show him like be the
01:08:09
push he needs to to get help but it wasn't things just kept spiraling and again what's so difficult in these
01:08:15
situations is at this point I think he's pushed pretty much everyone away who really loved him and he's now because
01:08:23
you have to remember he also had funds he had you know resources
01:08:28
which meant you know at this point he'd was now flying private jets everywhere and he was kind of surrounded by people
01:08:35
that I had never met before and who I don't think were particularly good people for him to have around but I mean
01:08:41
you don't have control over another human being and I think that's a thing that I really struggled with was how
01:08:47
much everyone wanted to help him and loved him but at some point you know so by October
01:08:54
I mean we've had 10 months of so much hurt so much trying to help him so much you
01:09:02
know you have moments when you think you're getting through and maybe like this is gonna like be a change and then
01:09:09
things just fall down again so he then when you've got sort of 700
01:09:15
employees takes to Instagram and announces that he's shutting down the company
01:09:21
and did he mean that yeah I think he did again I don't know if he meant it or if
01:09:27
he was just wanting to be removed and almost
01:09:33
you know if that was the reason he was kind of doing some of these behaviors
01:09:38
there had been things had been very extreme and I sometimes don't know if he would
01:09:45
have thought like you know what else do I need to do for someone to just take me out of this
01:09:51
so then obviously at that point you know the the board the shelves there's no choice but to now remove Brandon from
01:09:58
from the company did they contact you after that so yeah they they privately I mean before the the lawsuit and all that
01:10:05
stuff started they'd said listen Nicola we're gonna have to do something here yeah and I mean throughout this process
01:10:11
there are many conversations because again you know every shareholder loved Brandon and cared for him and like
01:10:18
everyone's a good person and it's like everyone wants to help someone that they've seen this Brilliance in and kind
01:10:24
of seeing this quick quick downfall and I think the Viewpoint was always how do
01:10:30
we protect decim so that branding can get better and come back so it was always just a temporary order
01:10:37
um and obviously they rang me because it would name me as becoming Soul CEO and kind of the interim period
01:10:43
and again you know I had these thoughts that maybe maybe this is what is needed for him to actually
01:10:49
get the help because sometimes they say you know you have to lose everything to hit rock bottom to then be accepting
01:10:55
that you need help but that that didn't happen and I think when
01:11:00
when it when the court order happened in October which is what three days after he
01:11:07
announces he's shutting down the company or was it more it was a very quick period I can't remember exactly but yeah I think it was
01:11:13
within days but then things just seem to keep spiraling and obviously you know at that
01:11:19
point in October I was seven months pregnant and so I remember I had like one last travel before I was at the kind
01:11:26
of no no flying stage so I went to Toronto and actually the first
01:11:31
thing I did was bringing back a lot of the incredible team members that had gone during the period of 2018.
01:11:38
so I need to pause there because that's pretty astounding you're seven months pregnant the founder has been ousted by a huge
01:11:46
like multinational billion dollar conglomerate and you're thrust in as CEO
01:11:51
of the company of 700 people who have just gone through chaos
01:11:59
what do you do day one um so so assemble the team so you know the
01:12:06
key people who were Incredibly Close to Brandon who had also been fired and kind
01:12:12
of pushed out in in all of this chaos they needed to come back to the company because they were also co-founders they
01:12:18
were also people who had been there from the beginning understood the values and we desperately needed
01:12:24
I remember going for dinner with Stephen and say like I need you to come back so
01:12:29
Stephen was a CFO at the time and then we came back as a CEO and again like we just needed to get organization because
01:12:36
I mean in this period of 2018 you have to remember the
01:12:41
our demand for the products went through the roof because I mean there was a lot of noise around what was happening and
01:12:48
did it help sales massively which is frustrating but you know
01:12:54
because we had such good products that was also in the conversation but it was like have you seen what's happening
01:13:00
have you seen this Instagram have you seen this sounded like it's you know I'll be honest with you the only time I'd had because I'm I'm not a buyer of
01:13:06
the products the ordinary products the only time I'd heard about the brand was I heard a story when I was in New York I
01:13:12
think in 2017 2018 when I was living in New York about this founder that had
01:13:18
like hijacked the Instagram and was posting like a dead sheep he posted like a picture of a dead sheep or something and I remember clicking on this is so
01:13:25
funny actually I clicked onto the Instagram to like see what was going on it's kind of like being nosy or whatever and I was like
01:13:31
that branding's cool so for the last five years I've known it
01:13:36
from that first moment but I remember thinking that branding is really on the money
01:13:41
it was only one a year old crazy so actually you know many people's first interaction
01:13:47
with the brand was probably through you know being told have you seen this person on Instagram have you seen this
01:13:53
breakdown that's happening in public so that was and I think that's one thing I find very hard is that Brandon was
01:14:00
an incredible human being he was so kind he was such a Visionary he was so high energy he truly was a genius
01:14:09
that I find it hard that people didn't really know him from before and actually so many people only learn about him
01:14:15
through that period which is very sometimes difficult to accept but it is also the reality of
01:14:22
just the the situation and social media and the appetite for controversy that I
01:14:29
think kind of exists today did when the lawsuit was happening and he was being ousted was there a point
01:14:35
during that that couple of days that period where he called you he became one you couldn't
01:14:42
off he didn't the court like you know he was obviously should have
01:14:48
in normal world like would have a representation and would you know he was just just finished
01:14:54
so you come into the office you assemble the team you pull the people back yeah and and again so then for those next
01:15:00
couple of months you know we we did hit like Brandon would sometimes be parked outside in front of our office
01:15:06
in Toronto and again you have to remember this is people who love him
01:15:11
but now there's a character who is is still acting at times
01:15:17
um you know frustrated upset and it's just a very difficult and
01:15:24
environment to be in you've got a responsibility now a CEO you've got this guy parked outside the
01:15:30
office you're trying to focus the team there's a guy parked outside the office who's capable of causing chaos to the
01:15:36
company to the team members the employees you know really not you know stable
01:15:43
surely you've got a responsibility to call the police or something or get him out there you know is that there's a
01:15:49
conflict of interest it's such a hot because you try everything
01:15:54
and actually you have to remember as well during this period I was back in the UK so actually it was even harder because I
01:15:59
mean at this point I'm like eight months pregnant nine months pregnant so hearing this but actually not being in Toronto
01:16:04
to actually be there in head office with the team and again that's where Stephen and kind
01:16:10
of other members were incredible and again it's difficult because you
01:16:15
know Stephen would like there to be a conversation with Brandon and then you get to the point where people just believing out the back exit to kind of
01:16:22
because it's such a horrible situation I mean he's he's not doing anything wrong sitting in his car on the road so it's
01:16:29
kind of you couldn't even ring the police unless he was actually acting abusive but sitting in the car alone
01:16:36
like were you not worried everything was more just sadness
01:16:42
of like how he would be feeling at that time and then you just get frustrated at
01:16:47
yourself because you know I think we're we're so used to figuring out the answer of figuring out Solutions so then when
01:16:54
you're in this heartbreaking situation of you know trying to be nice trying to be there trying to ask if he's okay
01:17:01
being away being distant nothing works and actually that feels
01:17:07
very hard I think to to actually accept especially as someone who you know I like to find Solutions there's a problem
01:17:14
like we find the answer so it was a hard period and then my daughter was born December
01:17:21
29th just four days after after Christmas and then I remember in the January getting a message so so Dion had the
01:17:31
Press had got in touch with us say is it true Brandon's died we had heard nothing at this point and I remember thinking
01:17:37
surely not like we wouldn't be hearing from a reporter asking us the question so I said to John
01:17:44
like I'll ask Stephen to see if he can hear anything Stephen went to
01:17:50
the police station who confirmed they'd found his body and he'd passed away
01:17:58
I remember Stephen ringing me and I was breastfeeding my daughter at the time and just feeling this shot because
01:18:05
you just never think that's actually the ending that's going to come like I think
01:18:10
I always did just think at some point he would get better and actually not within a year
01:18:17
someone could go from like being the person you know and you love and who is normal and then for them to a year later
01:18:25
that this this is such a fast downwards Pirates happened that that's kind of had that
01:18:31
ending and then you also I then realized that I
01:18:36
do think his partner knew I don't think any new like any of our destined family like no one knew other
01:18:44
than that reporter but if the Press know that means quite quickly everyone's
01:18:49
going to know then having to go through this process of bringing his partner ringing like the
01:18:56
people that I knew were Incredibly Close personally to him ringing Estee Lauder Companies like
01:19:01
telling the people that had to know I mean quite quickly having the email drafted because also you know this press
01:19:07
inquiry has gone to our General Media at decim inbox which means the team are already knowing that this inquiry is out
01:19:15
there so suddenly it's like okay gosh like I need everyone to hear this in in the
01:19:21
right order so trying to like make those phone calls send those messages
01:19:28
do you process it yourself no I think I went into I remember just the shock of
01:19:35
I really didn't think it was going to end in that way all that soon
01:19:40
and then I think it was just okay let's like go through the motions like who do we
01:19:47
need to tell like how do we handle this from here and then
01:19:54
remember like then be like I need to get meal or a passport because we flew to Toronto five like five days later
01:20:00
um and it yeah just go into like
01:20:05
how do we because again it's not just a a company that's left a Founder is a
01:20:11
family it's a friend it's someone who's so close to all of us and it's also hard because it's just
01:20:17
such a just a tragic story and a tragic ending and you know and I think that's
01:20:23
sometimes like our family bond and especially the bond that we still have now so many people who were there at the beginning but I mean we lived through
01:20:29
this like we had this year of all messaging each other around this
01:20:34
has just happened what do you think we should do how do we handle this situation like we live that pain
01:20:40
together which I think is is probably why there is a bond that I think is still incredibly strong that wouldn't
01:20:47
normally exist because it does strengthen when you go through those tough times together
01:20:53
he was he was on his own when he passed away yeah he he posted Instagram videos on on
01:21:00
that night so you know we we know from various things that he was obviously still in
01:21:07
this cycle of drug abuse and then kind of Mental Health we don't know
01:21:12
no one was there he he fell off the balcony I don't believe it was suicide
01:21:17
with an intention to end his life because he'd have I believe he'd have left him
01:21:24
now he'd have sent an email he was he was big on words like he always had something to say
01:21:31
that I find it hard to think that he would and again you know even if it was videos
01:21:36
like there was there was always kind of communication coming from him
01:21:42
but I find it hard to believe he would purposefully end things without having a
01:21:48
lust kind of voice in the world but again you know when you are in that
01:21:54
situation I don't know if he was sat on the edge and kind of
01:22:00
felt he was a high floor apartment there was kind of a huge storms and winds that
01:22:06
night but I mean none of us were there so we'll we'll never truly know what happened
01:22:13
as well as your job to have sort of communicating this to your team and dealing with the ram the after effects
01:22:19
of his passing when do you when do you process it this
01:22:25
is someone you love this is your friend that's you've just found out has died this is your co-founder your former co-ceo someone you've been on a
01:22:31
Incredible Journey with when do you have a chance to stop and just really um work through the emotions
01:22:39
I actually don't know if I ever have him into this
01:22:44
hard one you know work was this year was so busy because
01:22:50
we were just gone through this year of turmoil where demand has gone through the roof yet
01:22:56
behind the scenes you know people have done an amazing job
01:23:01
at holding things together but it'd also been a year of no leadership kind of decisions being
01:23:08
made in the wrong way a lot of chaos there so you suddenly have this situation of
01:23:15
like there's a lot to fix there's a lot to sort out and I'm and I'm not talking
01:23:20
even from like culture and emotions but just actually from like business practicalities because this is a brand
01:23:26
that's exploding with this kind of soaring demand that's had this chaos
01:23:32
that now needs stability in these kind of all of this love put back back into it and back into the team
01:23:38
and people and then obviously I also have a newborn baby at this time so I feel like
01:23:44
almost just that period since then like things have just been so busy and
01:23:49
I'm just a big believer and like there are there would you pick the times in your life when you're ready to focus on
01:23:56
something and I know there's a period in my life I want to sit down with a psychologist and just go through everything that happened to have a
01:24:03
better understanding of it but I feel like that's it needs to be at the right time when I'm ready and
01:24:10
actually to really like I'm someone that when I put my energy into something
01:24:16
it becomes such a big focus and you know I want to do it right and I know at the moment with everything going on I
01:24:22
wouldn't have the right time to dedicate to it and also probably partly healing like it's still you know it'll be five
01:24:28
years in in January since he passed away it's coming to a time when I think it
01:24:33
may be gets easier but it's also still very raw because I think
01:24:39
it's hard to say if it's regrets but you always have those feelings of is there anything different we could
01:24:45
have done because you feel so helpless about how things just spiraled
01:24:55
that's what I was I was I was going to ask is upon getting that news the
01:25:03
people often talk about this when they talk about the passing of a parent or something they look back on the relationship from A New Perspective now
01:25:08
because as you said in your own words you didn't ever envisage it would end that way so when it does end that way
01:25:14
your perspective on the situation can shift to what you as you said you know thoughts of regret or words unsaid or
01:25:22
things that maybe we could have done and and that can be quite um that can consume one's thoughts was
01:25:30
there a lot of that during that time because you know in the year 2018 I'd
01:25:37
had a lot of reflections of maybe we weren't as close as I thought because you know if he could have this life
01:25:43
partnering and all of these things and not even feel comfortable to tell me then maybe I thought we were this
01:25:50
closest that we actually weren't you start to kind of question those things and actually the the area which I then
01:25:57
kind of got the Comfort back that it was genuine and it was the love that I felt
01:26:02
that he he felt was when we when we got a copy of of his his
01:26:08
estate of his will of his kind of last wishes when it's set around the decision on
01:26:14
what should happen with his body it first went to his partner of 10 years and then it said in an absence of that
01:26:21
person I want Nicola to decide what happens to my body and actually that was a very comforting
01:26:27
thing because I mean there's nothing more personal than to try to trust
01:26:33
someone with if something happens to me this person can decide
01:26:38
what happens to like my remains so that then actually gave me the
01:26:43
Comfort the like it was genuine it was a true love like he did see me as that other than his his
01:26:51
partner like his kind of best friend his partner someone who was
01:26:56
incredibly close who he would feel like that was the right person to make that decision so I'd I'd kind of
01:27:02
gone on this cycle of feeling you know very pushed out very targeted very maybe maybe it wasn't all real maybe I
01:27:09
was just a colleague and kind of it was just business to actually know it was family it was love so
01:27:16
I kind of had that reflection then I think that gave me a lot of comfort do you miss Brandon incredibly much
01:27:24
you know it's quite lonely because when you've gone from having someone where every decision you're you're texting
01:27:31
you're together you're kind of you're doing it together gives you the confidence that you're going in the
01:27:37
right way so it's very difficult to lose that and
01:27:43
you know it's like you go from a two-parent to just one parent and you feel responsible for this incredible
01:27:49
child but also a child that's growing very fast and you know you you want to do the best by
01:27:55
everyone and it's and also like it's it's a huge change I mean the company we are today
01:28:00
is very different and you know like with any any kind of fast growth business you have to try and find a balance of you
01:28:08
know never compromising on our values and things that are so core to our purpose
01:28:14
but then finding a way that you can can actually grow and scale and and actually you know when
01:28:21
we you know early years we've never had a strategy and it was kind of never anything for that I thought we would do
01:28:26
but then obviously you go to a size that you start thinking about these things and it was interesting because the first
01:28:31
time we did strategy I think it's worth posing there and just highlighting what you've just said you
01:28:37
had a philosophy early on where you didn't you didn't have a company strategy it was never planned never have a strategy that was your ethos yeah why
01:28:45
uh we actually again we had all of these slogans in our offices and one with strategy is is also overrated and you
01:28:52
need to be agile as a startup and again I think you know a big thing Brando is a big believer in this he
01:28:59
always used to say we've got to be the small Rabbit running into the holes that the big elephants can't get to and the
01:29:04
big elephants obviously been there the big conglomerates because they've got far more money than us far more resources there is no point as doing
01:29:11
what they're doing but with far less let's find the holes and and part of
01:29:16
that is again being agile I mean again you think the ordering was the 11th brand and as much as we had like
01:29:22
elements of success before then you know the ordinary it took 11 attempts to
01:29:27
really get it right now a strategy can't plan for that because our strategy was
01:29:33
to keep failing until it got until we kind of got it right um now as you get bigger it changes
01:29:40
because suddenly you know you you need to articulate things in a different way but it was interesting
01:29:46
because when we did our first process of strategy and obviously I'm still very at this point was very unoffensive I
01:29:53
don't think we're a company that kind of needs a big document Etc so it's quite nice after we'd kind of had all these
01:29:58
conversations we came down to basically having our entire strategy was build growth power good
01:30:05
that was the strategy because almost it was and again I'm very proud that I feel like we're
01:30:11
more than just a beauty company we want to have a good impact on the world we
01:30:16
believe in making incredible products but also having a good impact on the planet you know I believe the world of skin care
01:30:23
is now a better place because people there is more transparency there's more awareness ingredients like niacinamide I
01:30:30
think there's better price points I think there is you know we talk about quality equality and actually within
01:30:35
skin care I think that's something that now is much more accessible to people so I I believe like we are having a good
01:30:42
impact and I think that businesses can do that and you know I like if you ever get the chance to come
01:30:48
to Toronto and you know I welcome anyone to come look around our offices our production facility because the warmth
01:30:55
you find from people is unlike anywhere I've ever I think could exist ladies and gentlemen
01:31:03
as you know Zoe is now sponsoring this podcast and I'm a proud investor in the company and I've been going on the Zoe
01:31:09
Journey myself it all starts with this home testing kit you get sent in the post which measures your gut health your
01:31:14
blood sugar and your blood fat I've had this little device this blood sugar glucose sensor on my arm which came in
01:31:20
the home testing kit to understand how all of the different foods that I eat day to day have an impact on my body and
01:31:27
it's been pretty unbelievable a big thing for me is feeling tired after I've
01:31:32
eaten something and not understanding why historically I didn't understand now I do understand I'd been eating I think
01:31:39
it was like a rice stir fry with a bit of chicken and some chili sauce in there and I saw in my blood glucose chart on
01:31:45
my phone which is connected to the device that Zoe sent me this huge Spike and then later in the day I saw a huge
01:31:51
dip when I started feeling that sort of post lunch slump and what will happen next is Tim tells me they'll take all of
01:31:57
that data and give me my own personalized Zoe scores for any food so
01:32:03
I can figure out what I should be eating and what I should avoid if I want to avoid those afternoon slums and if you
01:32:08
want to get started on your Zoe Journey with me use the code we've got an exclusive code here CEO 10 for 10 off
01:32:15
and let me know how you get on when it arrives back to the episode if I was to ask you then again we're
01:32:23
looking there at like the finished painting I want to know the colors that went into the painting
01:32:30
So how and you were there the whole time so you got to see what what created that
01:32:35
end product if I'm a startup founder listening to this now and I go okay Nicola I'm at the very start and I want
01:32:42
that end product I want to be 10 years in super successful and everyone's happy what are the most important things for
01:32:48
them to understand in body and sort of implement into their companies just maybe like Top Line so from a business
01:32:55
perspective product quality is the only way to be successful and therefore I mean the only reason we're now in a
01:33:01
position where I think we can invest so much in sustainability social impact in people is because if we started with
01:33:08
science we made the very best product that people know they get results with which ultimately has allowed us to grow
01:33:15
and again it comes back to this the more we build growth the more we can power good and this is a continuous Circle
01:33:20
that we're now in that I think is just the bigger we get the bigger impact we can have which I think is very powerful
01:33:28
and then I think from from a people perspective I mean any founder can now write the new rules and again for us
01:33:35
it's around like belonging everyone belongs at decim like that's our North Star like we have so much work on how we
01:33:42
make people feel belong why does that matter um I think that was advocate here obviously why does that matter what does
01:33:48
it help me be successful because you you want humans to feel supported to feel safe to feel trusted
01:33:54
to if you want to get the best from someone and also we have such a diverse Workforce and I mean even 50 of our team
01:34:02
50 of our leadership is by POG and we continue to kind of strive to do more but I think that diversity like the more
01:34:09
different viewpoints you have in a room the more you're going to drive Innovation you're going to drive creativity you're going to move things
01:34:16
forward and actually a favorite quote I had of Brandon's was he said
01:34:21
I always just find fascinating like people are skeptical and then one day planes do fly and again if you think
01:34:28
back to like there would have been a point where someone's saying what we can fly in an airplane in the sky and it's
01:34:34
you know like that would have been baffling and then it happens so actually
01:34:40
incredible change and advances can happen and it starts with small changes
01:34:45
it starts with some you know we always say like we started as a group of just good people having fun wanting to do the
01:34:53
right thing and then it's kind of led to where we are today what are your non-negotiables you know
01:35:00
because you're now then you're the chief disciple of decim you're the one that knows exactly what a decim person is how
01:35:06
they behave what a decim decision looks like what deci and behavior looks like what are your non-negotiables
01:35:14
and kindness um I also always say like yeah the right thing even when no one is
01:35:19
looking and for me that's like the authenticity piece and then that's also the difference I
01:35:25
think between being nice and being kind is that actually even if someone's not looking you're always just doing the
01:35:31
right thing caring about the small things because actually the Small Things become the big
01:35:36
things over time so I think really nurturing that um
01:35:41
and just thinking differently and again it's something where if you're taking inspiration from the
01:35:49
industrial category you're already in there's no point because you're just
01:35:54
gonna end up doing what everyone else is doing you need to take inspiration from everywhere but the industry and category
01:36:00
you're playing in because you know as I said like the ordinary inspiration came from pharmacy from Healthcare if we took
01:36:07
inspiration from the world of beauty and Skin Care we'd have just done what everyone else is doing but with far less
01:36:13
resources and and kind of ability behind us so I think where you take inspiration
01:36:18
from is very important I'm going to do a little bit of a quick fire here buys an interview
01:36:27
is going to start so correct how many staff do you have today uh just shy 1500. how many stores have
01:36:33
you got we've got 32 of our own stores how many of the positions in your company are held by women
01:36:42
um we're over 50 percent the vast majority of your products are still under ten dollars
01:36:49
um yes our best-selling ones are okay
01:36:54
um you're the most searched skincare brand on tick tock
01:37:00
very proud of our tick tock top you're the most popular skincare brand in Boots
01:37:06
as well yeah I don't know maybe on on.com do you know how many products you sell a second a lot of stuff like that
01:37:13
I lose track is it two a second I have no idea yeah I don't have
01:37:19
anywhere I thought you had it there no no no CineMate it maybe two a second
01:37:24
um right yeah looking back at the career you've covered so far
01:37:31
what's the advice that you wish someone had given you let's say it let me say the day you met
01:37:37
Brandon if I could have just ring ring your phone goes
01:37:43
and it's you at 34 years old you are 34 now yes 34 years
01:37:50
old and you you got to speak to Nicola back then on the phone 60 seconds you get to
01:37:56
give us some advice stay calm always find the positive and
01:38:01
everything because I think that positivity is what's infectious and actually makes other people
01:38:07
believe in what you want to do and kind of can get you through the toughest Times by just being calm being kind and
01:38:14
just you know I have belief in the end game like we're on this planet for such a
01:38:20
small amount of time some things you can control some things you can't life isn't fair
01:38:25
you have your own situation and I think I've always found coming to things just with a an air of calmness has always
01:38:32
been the best way okay I don't get stressed out and I think that's an important quality
01:38:38
it's not easy don't get stressed out takes a lot
01:38:44
what are your um what does your mother think of everything that's happened in your career incredibly proud
01:38:51
and I'm incredibly close to my mum like I see her every week and you know what's
01:38:57
also been nice is she's traveled so much with me uh you know she's so often my child care kind of looking after them
01:39:04
when we travel and you know Sean's parents they're they're very close to you but yeah I think she's just just incredibly proud of how
01:39:10
everything's turned out and your father passed when you were when I was 20
01:39:16
um and again it's it's it's very hard because probably see some similarities I think
01:39:22
between kind of what happened back then in I guess just the uncontrollability and
01:39:28
the um ability to help the situation because you know up until the age of well when I
01:39:35
was 18 like two years before he passed away I mean he was healthy he was well he liked to drink
01:39:41
but you know not to the point of being an alcoholic
01:39:47
and then very quickly things spiraled
01:39:53
so he loved being a radio presenter and like that was his life but I think it is a hard industry where
01:39:59
suddenly you're not current anymore and there's younger presenters coming through
01:40:04
and he'd you know he'd gone from presenting on on the the radio station for
01:40:13
literally 25 years you know he started at 18.
01:40:18
and he's been very successful in kind of the in you know the big kind of South Yorkshire radio station and suddenly it
01:40:25
was taken away from him I think that created just a spiral and you know he also I think had challenges with his
01:40:32
upbringing and alcohol just became a coping mechanism and again I think it just
01:40:39
both times it surprised me how quickly
01:40:45
my father had gone
01:41:04
that wouldn't be a guest if I wasn't cracking my grandma died on Monday as well it's
01:41:11
just extra one if all the emotions okay yeah we're gonna get some tissues
01:41:18
jacket you've got some tissues there thank you
01:41:30
the conversation around around addiction we don't um it's taken us some time to understand
01:41:36
its relationship with mental health right in in that situation what you describe is the like the loss of your
01:41:41
father's purpose and how that um turned him to alcohol and then within
01:41:46
a short period of time I'm guessing there was an alcohol related death yeah
01:41:55
when you were 20 the world wasn't it certainly wasn't in a place that's sort of 14 15 years ago
01:42:01
wasn't in a place where it would have understood alcoholism in the same way were you were you able to understand the
01:42:09
causes of your father's Behavior at that time I was I felt like
01:42:15
I could understand it as in in the way of
01:42:20
I remember one of the doctors saying to us because he was in hospital quite a few times like you have to treat this as a
01:42:26
terminal illness because even if he gets better it's there and it
01:42:32
can come back within the brain at any time when it's a severe addiction
01:42:38
so I think I kind of understood what was happening again
01:42:44
found it incredibly difficult of being helpless in terms of can you go from someone who you love and
01:42:51
who loves you and who would do anything for you and for their family just something again this not talking
01:42:57
the same language and again it's very hard I think with addiction
01:43:04
alcohol abuse because you find it hard like why can't they just stop like they love us like why why
01:43:11
do they want to be in this situation and again it takes like the rethinking around like they can't help it like this
01:43:19
is an illness just like cancer like other diseases like their brain is ill
01:43:24
and they can't think of anything other than how they can get an English drink and I
01:43:30
think it's just a heart it's a hard thing to accept feeling helpless whether there isn't a
01:43:36
medication you know it came in this in the UK you can't put
01:43:41
someone into rehab unless they want to go but they've got their brain battling with them they won't allow them to make
01:43:48
that decision and when everything happened with Brandon
01:43:54
it was like history repeating itself again you watched someone you love slowly slip away into
01:44:00
yeah it was I guess the one of the differences with my
01:44:06
with my dad he never became he was still very loving and kind even though you know he
01:44:13
couldn't stop was I think with Brandon it was
01:44:18
things were much more it was more anger and it was kind of more
01:44:29
my dad always still had the love and the kindness coming through even when he was ill
01:44:35
were you were you able to process that your father passing did you did you take the time did you get the support did you
01:44:41
have any anyone there to speak to about that
01:44:48
really I think I've always just
01:44:53
I just keep busy and actually I'm a very I'm generally a very like positive calm
01:45:00
happy like I truly have a high level of happiness in my life despite all that tragedy
01:45:07
has happened and I get so much joy and so much loving
01:45:12
like I have so much support from my husband and my mum and my sister and you
01:45:18
know some of the best friends in the world who've been my best friend since we were in school that I've just
01:45:25
is it strange to go through everything that's happened but actually still feel very just secure
01:45:33
I love to wish I think you know I often say this like despite what happened I mean I had 18 years if probably a very
01:45:41
boring but very stable loving happy childhood that I think really does set
01:45:47
the foundations for later life
01:45:54
you've got one wonderful husband you've got two gorgeous wonderful beautiful children they're happy and healthy and
01:46:00
then you've got 1 500 children a decim
01:46:06
um who are doing just great as well how are you feeling
01:46:13
um honestly very privileged very lucky I mean to be
01:46:19
like 34 and I feel like actually I've accomplished so many of my dreams
01:46:24
like having my children having an incredible husband having an amazing
01:46:30
home an amazing life together and then also like I mean how lucky that
01:46:35
at 24 decim came into my life and I've met the most incredible people I have best friends now from the company
01:46:43
I get I live in like such an exciting world like you know I get to work with one of
01:46:49
the best Brands and companies in the world and and also actually I like to think influence
01:46:55
and set the the footprint for actually what business can be like it can be a place where where leaders can be kind
01:47:02
they don't you know again if you think around business from 20 30 years ago and
01:47:07
probably the polar opposite to what would be expected to be a leader you don't have a big glass box you don't sit
01:47:13
in your own big glass office above everybody else I heard you hot desk your team told me you hot desk with them I've
01:47:19
never had my own desk in any office at sem probably the only person to never have my own desk and actually I love it
01:47:26
first of all because I'm traveling and you know whenever I'm somewhere I always want to spend time with people so
01:47:31
normally I am in meetings I want to be in just getting to know everyone and if I do have time on my desktop desking is
01:47:38
far better like who's not in today or go sit in there just because then you get to talk to another team you get to be
01:47:43
around people and so I've always kind of just enjoyed the the floating piece of
01:47:49
just getting to know everyone in the team we have a closing tradition on this podcast as you know because clearly you
01:47:55
just said you'd watched an episode before so this is um this will not be a surprise we have a
01:48:01
closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest this is a bit of a long one
01:48:06
um the question is ah okay I've been trying to figure out what this word is that's why I was
01:48:12
mumbling around because I was like I can't okay stasis is a lie
01:48:17
in every moment we are either progressing towards the better self within or regressing
01:48:24
so the question is who are you becoming
01:48:31
I think I'm becoming someone who is just accepting
01:48:39
of who they are and actually just being very content and being happy with who I am and I
01:48:47
think you know like people always ask me like and I have no plans to leave Destiny but
01:48:52
people who say life after Desi and what do you want to do and they always don't believe when they say like I just want to be a mum like that's so important to
01:49:00
me like and again I talk about chapters in life like if that's that period
01:49:05
that I get one chance at life to do then I want to prioritize that and I think
01:49:10
you know it sometimes people associate well because you've been like
01:49:16
business and you've been driven that becomes a conflict and that but it doesn't because also I think the
01:49:21
qualities that make me want to dedicate so much to my children and being a good mum I
01:49:28
probably also would actually mix the culture what it is at decim today so I think just accepting that actually
01:49:34
we're all unique and I am very content at this moment in life
01:49:40
I feel I don't particularly have any regrets
01:49:47
I want to know more about if things could have been differently in this you know the the bad situations that have
01:49:52
happened but I think because I've always feel like I've approached things with
01:49:58
kindness that I've been true to myself that actually that's something that I kind of want to continue to be
01:50:07
Well you certainly do embody kindness and you are you know your team described you as being aware of sunshine that
01:50:12
isn't my experience of you that is also my experience of your husband who I met a year ago um who's also a wonderful human being
01:50:19
um thank you thank you for so much thank you for the inspiration you really are
01:50:25
an example that in order to be a successful leader in business you don't need to be what we used to see in movies
01:50:30
which is like screaming and shouting at people and throwing things from the glass box and being cruel and being
01:50:36
selfish and and being a leech on society or the Earth or whatever it might be you
01:50:41
you are one of those shining examples that that success and kind aren't mutually exclusive in fact in clearly in
01:50:49
your case from speaking to your team and seeing how much they adore you it's additive to the to the outcome of
01:50:54
success it doesn't deduct from it but your story as well the the it should be
01:50:59
a movie and I'm sure you're gonna I'm sure it will be a movie someday or at least something an incredible incredible
01:51:04
series of books is one that is so incredible so inspiring so
01:51:10
um you know uh Unthinkable at times and the
01:51:16
way that you share it with such wisdom and vulnerability is going to induce so much
01:51:22
light and inspiration and um Liberation and everyone that's listened today so sometimes when I do
01:51:28
this podcast I realize that I have to thank you on behalf of the listener because I realized the listener is at home and they are going to DM you and
01:51:34
all that stuff because they do that a lot which is fantastic but I would really like to thank you on behalf of everyone that listened to this
01:51:39
conversation because um I know how many of them in so many ways that you'll never understand you'll see maybe one
01:51:46
percent of it you'll never understand how much you've helped and you don't have to you don't have to come and do
01:51:51
these things and share the way you do and open yourself up like this you do have a choice in that and you've chosen
01:51:57
to do that and I know why you've chosen to do that and it's because of the value that you've shared today so thank you Nicola it's been a pleasure to meet you
01:52:03
um you're very much the reason why I do what I do here is to find the stories like this and to share them with the world and you'll continue to inspire me
01:52:09
for many years to come through all those chapters of your life that you described amazing thank you for listening
01:52:17
right now I'm incredibly busy I'm running my fund where we're investing in slightly later stage companies I've got
01:52:23
my Venture business where we invest in early stage companies got a third web out in San Francisco in New York City where we've got a big team of about 40
01:52:30
people and the company's growing very quickly flight story here in the UK I've got the podcast and I am days away from
01:52:37
going up north to film Dragon's Den for two months and if there's ever a point in my life where I want to stay focused
01:52:43
on my health but it's challenging to do so it is right now and for me that is exactly where he all comes in allowing
01:52:49
me to stay healthy and have a nutritionally complete diet even when my professional life descends into chaos and it's in these moments where heels
01:52:57
rtds become my right hand man and save my life because when my world descends into professional chaos and I get very
01:53:03
very busy the first thing that tends to give way is my nutritional choices so having heal in my life has been a
01:53:09
lifesaver for the last four or so years and if you haven't tried heal yet which is I'd be shocked you must be living
01:53:15
under a rock if you haven't yet give it a shot coming into summer things getting busy Health matters always
01:53:21
RTD is there to hold your hand [Music]
01:53:46
oh
