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Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264

July 13, 2023 / 01:55:39

This episode features Frank Lampard discussing his career, personal challenges, and the current state of Chelsea Football Club. Key topics include his relationship with his father, the impact of his mother's passing, and the challenges faced during his managerial stints.

Frank reflects on the influence of his father on his football career, describing him as a tough taskmaster. He shares how the fear of failure drove him to succeed, while also acknowledging the emotional support he received from his mother.

He candidly talks about the difficulties he faced after the death of his mother, describing a period of emotional numbness and how it affected his performance on the field. Frank emphasizes the importance of mental health and the challenges of coping with grief.

On the topic of Chelsea, Frank discusses the unhealthy culture he observed during his interim management, attributing it to a large squad size and lack of motivation among players. He expresses hope for the club's future under new management and emphasizes the need for unity and high standards.

Finally, Frank shares his thoughts on player recruitment and the importance of aligning a club's philosophy with its managerial approach. He encourages young people to step out of their comfort zones to discover their passions.

TLDR

Frank Lampard discusses his career, personal challenges, and the current state of Chelsea FC, emphasizing the importance of mental health and unity.

Episode

1:55:39

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when you get that call had you known the context the behind the scenes that unhealthy culture honestly do you think

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you would have made a different decision I think I think I can say this Chelsea Legends

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I read the dad was the biggest influence on your career and then I read a separate quote saying sometimes I hated

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him you know my dad was a tough man pushed me very hard on the football front and it got probably a bit too much

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the fear of failure was a huge driving force that made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end

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Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get your opinion on what's just happened because since

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you've left we've not really heard from you I came back here because this was an

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opportunity to come to Chelsea travel close to my heart but I could see and training the level wasn't enough the

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size of the squad with players that will test you and question you questioning you and then Chelsea spends more money

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than anyone's ever spent in a window it seemed like Tails could see that the

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players were ready for the season to finish but low standards are a symptom of something further Upstream that's

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happened you know we didn't get the results I wanted and I know a lot of the

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reasons why like what so one moment occurred in your life that really tested you at a much deeper level

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the passing of your mother and while you were playing at the very very highest level I was a mummy's boy I lost the

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closest person to me you know everything to me the emotional support I want to say something more you know and I

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couldn't what would you want to say Frank is a legend there's absolutely no

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denying that but so much has happened in recent times in his life as a manager that unanswered

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questions remain and I wanted to have a conversation with Frank an honest open conversation to see if we could get to

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the bottom of some of those unanswered questions what was happening behind the scenes

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how did it actually feel for Frank is anyone to blame what does Frank want to do next in how and what caused Frank

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to be the man that he is and that's maybe the most fascinating question of all

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because there's some things that Frank has just never talked about before but he's made the decision to talk about

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them today and if you have unanswered questions I don't think you will at the end of

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this episode [Music] Frank [Music] how are you doing really well thank you there's always a there's always a short

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and long answer to that isn't it I was waiting for your second drink what's the what's the long version of of

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that no I'm doing really well I'm um I'm currently uh on a break I suppose from

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working which is a pleasure in ways because I am obviously the the work of a the manager

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uh I was gonna say Premier League manager but any manager in football is intense

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um so at the moment I'm on a break sort of holiday time for me a little bit family time

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um and probably when I'm out of work I learned this when I left Chelsea actually

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um it was I had a year out after that and I really learned to try to improve my appreciation of when you're out of work

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you're fortunate enough to be able to be out of work whatever that circumstance

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is but try and enjoy your family and be very very present so the minute I'm pretty present at home which is a good

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thing hopefully for my children and wife and uh I'm in a pretty good place I remember my my brain would often drift

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off when I had my time out of work um and I would think about things professionally so I'd think about things

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that I could be doing or you'd think back to the past when you're when you're

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having those moments where you'll meet I know your kids are running around and

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you you have a moment where your brain drifts off to work what is what are the subjects that your brain starts thinking

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about professionally you you think a lot in management uh about people so if I if I reflect on

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situations like leaving Chelsea or leaving Everton and those things there is there are a lot of things that are

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out of your control you get to a point where you kind of can get probably 70 of them and lock them

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away and kind of go and I'm right with that you know results you can't control

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but 70 you kind of you're okay with and there's 30 that you kind of niggles at

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you that's how I am and a lot of those things when you become manager and maybe

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sort of like people things I think there's sort of tactics and all these things are huge in a modern game and I

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I'm certainly a coach I'm not a manager but when it comes to managing I don't

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know 25 30 players managing and building because you are the figured head of a building when you're the head coach or

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manager I think sometimes when you're reflecting you can reflect on things did

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I have that was that interaction right would I have dealt with that right could I dealt with it differently and

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hindsight is like the best best thing you know it's so simple to sit there be

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hindsight and think you know I should have done that so I suppose I had moments where I go over things like that

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but they're all with a with a yearning to sort of be a bit better or learn that

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you might have done something wrong or actually you come to conclusion oh maybe did it right so you know I dip in and

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out of that stuff um and that probably is you know as I say I wouldn't say I'm the only one but

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I certainly am someone that is you know I can never control when those moments come I can be now pushing the swing you

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know with my kid and then my mind goes back to something called things ahead to something and you know that probably

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means that I'm absolutely invested in what I do yeah I can relate to all of that I think

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any anybody can um and I also really like your analogy of once you get to like 50 70 piece with something it's

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kind of resolved as much as you know yeah and then there's other things which

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feel kind of unresolved I guess or there's more wisdom to Garner from those experiences well I think if you don't

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get to peace with a 70 I think you can get yourself in a bit of a mess you know I think you can go over everything and

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correct yourself and then what is the answer going forward so I think kind of understanding what you are and then

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going no no that was fine whatever the result for a win or for a loss I've had

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games as a coach and as a player where I I we've won a game and I know I got

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something wrong in the game but you take the plot it's afterwards but inside I

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know I got it wrong I've had games that we've lost and you get criticism from

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the outside and I know my prep was right you know in my head so I think those sort of things you can kind of Stack Up

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and Go no that's fine but then there's always the 30 and we'll always strive

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for and it might be less I don't know if 30 sounds a big number when I say it

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sometimes it's 10 to try and make you as good as you can be so I kind of go over

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that stuff because when you're out of work when you're not working and you

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don't know in foot we don't know what your next gig is you know it's very hard

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to jump too far into the future because everything looks different there so how can you stack yourself up as good as you

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can now I want to get into all of that but I I want to take a step back because I think

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um I feel like there's more I need to understand about who you are as a person

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and your characters and your character and really the the like the foundations you're built upon to understand all of

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these things the things we're going to talk about so what do I what do I need

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to know about Frank Lampard in terms of the influences and the experiences that shaped your character the character of

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the man that sat in front of me because you know I've spoken to a lot of people

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about you in preparation of this conversation no no but they all they all seem to sing from the exact same him

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shoot they all say everyone says you're just a a wonderful man like a really

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good solid gentleman and it's people don't know this but we weren't going to

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have this conversation before yeah but you've just been a total Class Act in

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even not being able to come last time because of you know reasons outside of your control

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um the way you conduct yourself you just conduct yourself as a real gentleman um and then in terms of your mentality

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when I was reading through your early years it's clear that there was this real

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Obsession to be better I mean Harry said Harry redknapp said that you were the hardest training hardest working person

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he's ever worked with when you're a young man tell me what do I why is Frank Lampard

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the way he is I I grew up in in Romford in Essex so um I will call it probably a middle

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class upbringing in terms of my dad had been a professional footballer um and so I went through a pretty um

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comfortable upbringing where I was down to school every day aspiring to do pretty well at school

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um training pretty much every day and plan at the weekend so after school we'll go and try and Tottenham and

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Arsenal and West Ham at one point I was trying little three you could in those days now it's different

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uh I was playing Cricket I was playing for Essex as a child so that was on Monday night having Nets at Chelmsford

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and then on Saturday I went to school he's going to school on Saturday so she

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was devastated with at the time as we all were but that was how the school works and on Sundays I played so my more

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week was so busy but it was content very content in terms of relationship of my family I had a a dad who was pushed me

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very hard on the football front very very hard it was quite a hard task master what does that mean in reality

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um that means that probably when I was probably started kicking the ball when I was at four or maybe it seems like a

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walk but you know like remembering my early days would be four or five and then so that was me in terms of I loved

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the football um but probably by the time I was eight or nine I was probably getting like

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coached or pushed in in what 15 or 16 year old might be when they're sort of

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going into an academy at West hamster where I ended up as in work on your weaknesses go over the park you need to

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have more stamina you if it's not good enough your agility is not good enough

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so I was like used to put down the the the cushions in the front room and had me doing reaction

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for our ball against the one react and jump I'm a kid I I loved it don't get me

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wrong but there were times when I didn't love it and it got probably a bit too

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much I'm not gonna cry about it because it made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the

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end and then on the other flip of that so I had that pushy kind of thing and so after a game on a Sunday we would lose

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and I would get he would give me some criticism on the way home and I would be a bit emotional and fortunately for me

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when I think about sort of fight and how things work together to maybe get used to where you got you you

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end up being my mother was the the flip the emotional support the you know arm around you the quiet word I was a

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mummy's boy and that was completely my upbringing so as I say it was pretty comfortable and in the end it led to me

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leaving school with my gcses getting decent grades and then going to sign on as a yts at the time an apprentice at

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West Ham I read that the quote about your father I think it was in the independent that

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your dad was the biggest influence on your career and then I read a separate quote saying that I have an awful lot to

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thank him for but sometimes I hated him yeah I I stick by that quiet I think you'll probably find it um

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a lot in stories similar to mine um and in the modern day I think it's changed because I think parents now

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might the thing with my story then in a different era was it it felt pretty organic my dad had played

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um he saw probably a bit of talent in me and pushed and drove in an old school way I want you to be a player son you

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know and he was like he think I think he found a new sense of pride in pushing me

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there now I think some parents get excited about all the bright lights that may be and they push their children and

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I think that's another story but I think mine was real you know my dad was a

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tough man is a tough man and he pushed me and um I remember being over a park and it was raining it was crossing balls

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for me to head hedden's never been a strength of mine throughout my career and I couldn't you

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know I couldn't connect I was missing them and he was shouting at me and I remember sort of stomping off and and

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being emotional about it and um those things stick in my head and again they were the building blocks of of myself as

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a person so you know I this isn't a sob story it's just a reality of what I went

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through and as I started a lot of other comfort so I you know other people don't

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have it as good and it was without that who knows in a football sense if I'd

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have got to where I got and how does that um what relationship does that make you have with your work and progress and

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self-improvement at that very young age because you sign up West Ham when you're

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14 years oldish uh 15 maybe 15 yeah 15. and and I and I I mean as I said I read that Harry redknapp quote that you

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outworked everybody else yeah um what what is your relationship with your work yeah from that very young age well

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I I I'm sort of um really interested in this kind of nature versus nurture thing

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um what was in me already was ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of very work

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ethicy kind of person I think I had you know physical capacity I was a chubby kid to be fair I was quite chubby at

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these cheeks curtains as you had in those days and I remember like I know I needed to get fitter and

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um and get stronger so um and then being pushed by my dad particularly and encouraged by my mum

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probably gave me this real desire um to an understanding that if you don't work you're not going to get there and

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that you know that's what I would try and pass on to my children now but it really stuck and it became me so by the

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time of being you know 16 as I remember it probably been at West End my early years I'd probably been forced into a

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bit by my dad but I took it on board so you know I wanted to get faster so he put me in running spikes and I had to

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run after training go and run over the back and I used to hide my spikes go out the backs I didn't want the other

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players to see me because I felt embarrassed um I'd go in on days off um I would practice extra shooting I

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would do everything I could to to improve and it probably was looking back um a desire to be the best and I was

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never the best I was probably like the second or third best kid in pretty much every team that I played in in whatever

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I did Cricket or football um but I had a real desire to and I also had a fear of failure and as much as

00:13:34

that doesn't sound like a nice driving force it can be a really strong driving

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force I think where did that fear of failure come from I don't know I don't

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know I think it's in my makeup maybe I don't know it's probably just how I am I

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probably have it still these days I think it can be really positive it was in my footballing career and it carried

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on throughout probably still in my management career um it can probably be the flip of that

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in my life because if I fear of failing something I won't approach it and I that's me I don't want that you know my

00:14:03

wife will always Christine jokes with me when we go on holiday and you want to paddle board or something I'm not going

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near that because I know I'm going to fall off a lot you know so she'll laugh

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at me so I'm like you paddleboard I'll lay on the beach or I'll lay on the Lilo

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or something like that I actually use the paddle board as a lie like that's like that's the joke but in the biggest

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sense in my life you know that fear of failure is and as it can probably maybe make me uh not try things I should do

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but in terms of my footballing career the fear of failure was a huge driving force and I don't think it's a bad thing

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because I think there's a certain humility to it and my mum would certainly have been a driver of me as a

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young person just like stay humble son stay humble never get too higher stay there and you'll be fine in your own

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head so I think I had a real understanding of my weaknesses and I thought well if I can work on these

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constantly and then I started to see results really step by step sometimes you go back you go forward a few but I I

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can certainly say looking back at my career from start to finish I didn't leave anything on the table in

00:15:01

terms of work ethic and training you know I don't want to sound like an absolute machine there'll be days when

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you get older where you come off it a bit or you you start to find life affection different ways but I I when I

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look at my peers in football um I certainly had a training ethic that at least stood right at the top whether

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you know others can stay the same maybe but I felt that I mean that's the Harry

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redknapp quote he says that um during his career um he never met anyone that trained as

00:15:27

hard as Frank he would be out there on a Winter's day practice and shooting for

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hours Left Foot Right Foot etc etc that fear of failure though I can see how it becomes a driving force and makes

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you stay out there on a Winter's day Left Foot Right Foot at him leaving no stone unturned but with all these things

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there comes there comes a more a cost on the other side of the coin right and you I mean you talked about the

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paddle board thing which is that like kind of if I don't do it then I won't

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fail but one of the things that I was assuming is it would also make you quite a chronic overthinker yeah because I

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think people that have that fear of failure they try and think their way through a situation before it happens

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yeah typically what is the cost of being that having that fear of failure um well the other thinking thing is

00:16:10

maybe a cost and I think that can be a positive too but I think it can be quite taxing on yourself you know for anyone

00:16:16

with things like that and you know sometimes I would I've tried to make myself you know not an overthinker

00:16:23

however you do that I don't know because I've not found a solution to that one

00:16:27

because um I think that's when you are that um it's in you so um probably the the the the negative or

00:16:36

downsides have been probably a bit taxi than myself but I think you learned to live with that too and I think you

00:16:40

understand it I think it's um something that I'll never master and um it can probably cause you in to over

00:16:49

complicate in situations like you're saying about I don't want to get into

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that but if you do get into something and you're really overthinking you have

00:16:54

to get into something I now try and step back and simplify and say stop overthinking it simplify it

00:16:59

because for me anything in life if you can simplify the basics you probably get quicker to the solution so

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um that one's just a struggle that I put up with but as I say I think it's just

00:17:08

part of my makeup if I wasn't an overthinker if I didn't have that sort of obsessive sort of perfectionist

00:17:13

training Drive I wouldn't have got to where I got to because I was not Lionel

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Messi who has this god-given Talent that's there like wherever my talent was

00:17:22

on the Spectrum I needed to push it and I constantly try to how did you enjoy the process if you're overthinking I

00:17:30

weirdly like I've really grown to like the stress of what it brings and that's

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and that that's you might start thinking I'm a strange person I don't know but I

00:17:40

loved stressful training you know to put on a physical site for instance I loved like

00:17:45

that feeling of like almost feeling sick on a pre-season run or you know really intense training sessions I I really

00:17:52

enjoyed that maybe not always in the moment but you know when you get to the end of it you go if I got through that

00:17:56

and it was so intense and hard and maybe in life sometimes I set myself challenges and maybe I'll make it more

00:18:01

complicated than I should but I don't mind that stuff and that's probably when

00:18:04

I was started off talking about that relax when you're with your children I think I'm still

00:18:08

um juggling that one and I think probably a lot of people are I don't know I think you know being overthink is

00:18:12

not something unique to me it's completely everywhere um but I don't I don't know what else to

00:18:19

say and that's what I am that that enjoying the the pain like the preseason run if you feel sick then you feel good

00:18:25

about yourself yeah why I don't know I mean I went to the gym this morning and I really didn't want to

00:18:32

go and I bought the dog and my time limit's getting shorter and I'm gonna go

00:18:36

and I want to go I'm going to go in because I know the buzz that'll get off

00:18:39

afterwards and that's kind of my drug and always has been and you know it probably starts from all those early

00:18:44

days of you know you must work hard you must push yourself you must be as fit as

00:18:47

you can be and it probably just stuck and it's probably a bit of a lifer for

00:18:51

me um but I do I do thankfully I I I I enjoy the stress of hard work and physical but less now I'll finish you

00:18:59

know now it's more to not get too unhealthy and unfit whereas when I was training and playing

00:19:06

even when I finished playing for a couple of years if I went for a 5k I need to beat my 5K PB I have to try and

00:19:12

beat it now when I do a 5k I'm just going to complete it you know and I'm

00:19:16

completing it in like 20 or 30 seconds less so I've I've dropped that one

00:19:20

slightly and maybe I transfer it into other parts of my life I guess quick one before we get back to this episode just

00:19:26

give me 30 seconds of your time two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening

00:19:31

and tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely

00:19:36

never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place but secondly it's

00:19:40

a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24 of

00:19:47

people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the Subscribe button means more than I can say and if you hit that

00:19:53

subscribe button here's a promise I'm going to make to you I'm gonna do

00:19:57

everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future

00:20:01

we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going

00:20:04

to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show thank you thank you so much back to the

00:20:10

episode when you when you finished your footballing career you know there's many

00:20:14

options you had punditry I mean I'm just talking about the typical path to that

00:20:18

footballers sometimes they just go into business yeah a few of them going to coaching and stay in football but you

00:20:23

you made the decision to stay in football why and was there anything else that was

00:20:27

tempting you well I did Panda tree for a year so I spent a year working mainly on

00:20:32

BT and doing some different things BBC I did a few bits and and I really enjoyed

00:20:36

it it was great I was working a lot with real Ferdinand Stephen Gerrard um Jake Humphrey who had them recently

00:20:41

and just really good people and and it was like a step in the game and a step of retired so I can do other stuff that

00:20:48

you know the life of a pundit is you know much easier than the manager we all know that so I kind of put my eggs in

00:20:54

both Baskets at that point I did that and I did my coaching Badges and I wanted to kind of see how I felt a

00:20:59

little bit and I didn't want to be a manager in my 20s when I got to my 30s I

00:21:02

was like that's interesting people managers now what how what are they dealing with I just thought about myself

00:21:06

in my 20s more um and then when I finished I did my coaching badges I started to quite like

00:21:12

it and then I've got an offer out of the blue to go and manage Derby Derby County

00:21:15

the owner Mel Morris kind of went out in a bit of a limb he was speaking to Harry

00:21:20

redknapp who's my uncle um Harry said to speak to Frank we sat for two hours in Chelsea in a hotel and

00:21:26

he offer me the job and it was like um a Christian has a sound and it's like

00:21:31

jump and the net will appear and we sat in my front room and I was like you know

00:21:36

I've done my coaching badges but this is a proper job I go to Derby just they've

00:21:40

got some problems and it's going to be a difficult job or whatever that's all

00:21:43

jobs are and I jumped why um that inner probably drive that I have in a desire you know it wasn't something

00:21:52

that I I am an overthinker so that probably made that process that those couple of days where I had to make a

00:21:57

decision really intense but at the same time I I like a challenge I love a challenge and as much as I enjoy

00:22:03

punditry it was you know it's it's challenging you want to do it well you want to do it like you

00:22:08

know the top boys do it you have to put everything into it and do it really well

00:22:12

um but I I was when I wanted more I wanted to to get on the grass I wanted to work

00:22:19

with pliers I wanted to try and improve pliers I wanted to see if I could do it it's probably more if I'm honest

00:22:23

probably can I do it and can I you know do something and I was probably naive at

00:22:27

the time because the minute I walked into Derby I was like wow this is different you know I've got to hold them

00:22:31

I am now holding the meeting rather than one of the 25 players sitting listening

00:22:36

and as much as you can think I'll do that the minute you're walking and you

00:22:39

see those 25 faces and then you walk to to say hello to Jeanette who's your secretary and this one and the Playa

00:22:45

liaison I'm like oh have I got to manage all this as well and you do you have to sort of you know

00:22:51

the building is yours to kind of set the tone so that first year some of it was good you know I think sometimes in

00:22:56

management a great manager said to me this he said and he was all he's old he was

00:23:01

old and he said to me I think I was a better manager when I was young in many many ways he said because when I as I

00:23:06

got older I started to really sort of overthink things and become a little bit more cynical and you know you kind of go

00:23:12

over these things when I was young I just make decisions and I was kind of free to do it now I think there's a

00:23:16

balance to that experience is obviously a clear can clearly help as you go along

00:23:20

you learn from mistakes but I unders I understood his point when he said that because I walked into Derby fresh

00:23:24

and I made a lot of mistakes because you always will but I also had a freshness and a bounce and a feeling inside I've

00:23:31

made it was kind of I want to take this on and even though those moments of fear

00:23:34

you know that kind of when you feel like a bit of imposter syndrome should I be doing this and you've got hired it like

00:23:39

I remember having a whistle for the first day and trying to in the training pitch again

00:23:43

I'm going to blow this at the end of training and I've been used to hearing

00:23:46

about this sounds so stupid I've been used to hearing coaches go end of the session stop I was a bit like what kind

00:23:52

of whistling I didn't want to do like a little I don't remember guys so let alone like

00:23:57

I've got a bigger team and set the tactics and set the tone I was about all those little stings and I think every if

00:24:03

they were honest I think you know people in business yourself have all had those

00:24:06

the most simple things where you're sitting there going wow that little basic thing that I didn't consider is

00:24:11

now in my head yeah so I had a lot of those and it was you know we got to the playoff final we got to Wembley we lost

00:24:16

a final against Aston Villa to get to the Premier League and I was so disappointed for the club at Derby and

00:24:21

the owner had given me you know put everything into me and we had a really good year and got there and and we lost

00:24:26

it but in terms of um that first year of management yeah my drive took me into it

00:24:30

and it was just a huge learning curve and it was a really enjoyable year imposter syndrome that I mean that's

00:24:36

somewhat linked to I guess your fear of failure have you how does we talk a lot about imposter syndrome on this podcast

00:24:42

because it's it's a it's a two it's a double-sided thing on one hand you have

00:24:47

that feeling of um which I can recall when I became a dragon on Dragon's Den

00:24:50

and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and Deborah meaden Peter Jones has been there for 21 Seasons since the beginning

00:24:55

Deborah Mead has been there for 17 and I feel like I've just walked into the TV

00:24:58

yeah like your little whistle thing was me like how do I say I'm out okay exactly yeah um but being at peace with

00:25:05

that like how do you how have you dealt with that in your career because you went from being a pundit to managing a

00:25:10

club that was trying to get promotion to then Chelsea these are huge leaps forward yeah huge leaps forward um I

00:25:17

think uh I probably managed to get coping mechanisms along the way that have uh put that to the side and in

00:25:25

simple sense I've become much more confident in myself um away from work away from work actually

00:25:32

at home much more content in myself again it probably comes back to being really settled in relationship I am 45

00:25:37

now just turned um but in the workplace as well I've um that first year I remember feeling it

00:25:44

a lot and when I moved to Chelsea like it should be a huge move it's a huge jump to the Champions League club even

00:25:49

though I knew the club very well it was a huge jump to deal with players of a different stature Etc

00:25:55

um but I have found that imposter syndrome thing much less and I had just had coping mechanisms where I could kind

00:26:01

of just go okay you're nervous taking this meeting because you're a bit out of your comfort

00:26:05

zone you've got to be critical of a player so you're going to go in on someone you're going to show a video of

00:26:09

the game the other day and it's like that's that's not a comfortable thing to

00:26:12

do always and I just probably have found mechanisms to be able to go right you almost go into the character and that

00:26:19

doesn't sound like an actor too much but you're going I'm just going to go into

00:26:21

it and the more I think you do that um the better you can be at coping with that thing and then you just kind of

00:26:27

also have to get a realization that you know you can feel a bit like that you can feel a little bit like I'm out of my

00:26:31

comfort zone that you can make mistakes I think showing that you can make a mistake in front of a group of players

00:26:37

is not the worst thing you know they're there to the players will get it you

00:26:41

make the smallest mistake one of those 25 at least is going to go well that when he said that you know but I think

00:26:45

you've got to come to peace with that and you can even joke about it after the

00:26:48

event because you'll keep making them so I'll probably come come to terms we've

00:26:51

been able to deal with that side of it I think I am I I was thinking then as you're speaking actually about

00:26:56

my experience being a dragon and when um one of the things I've always wondered

00:27:00

about players when they go from being a player to a manager and especially when they've been managed under a legend of a

00:27:07

manager so like I was thinking about Ollie um oligon Associates Alex Ferguson yeah how hard is it to like be yourself

00:27:14

versus be the successful manager that you saw when like because even when I became a dragon I think for the first

00:27:21

two years for sure I was trying to be a dragon yeah not being Steve yeah yeah and that's a that's a

00:27:28

journey but do you understand the question I completely get it I get asked it a lot and I'm not in not in exactly

00:27:33

the way you guys but I get asked by football journalists who say so what did you take out of all your managers you

00:27:37

play and all this stuff and you know just to jump to one would be Jose Mourinho it's a good one to jump to

00:27:42

because he had a huge effect on my career as many did but he came and probably elevated me in my playing

00:27:47

career to a different level and what I learned from Jose and as I then went on to managers after that was the the thing

00:27:55

that impressed me about Joseph there was a real authentic nature to him like when

00:28:00

he was self-confident overconfident kind of brash Jose that's him you know that

00:28:06

was him and you know maybe he's playing up a bit now and again but I saw him

00:28:08

behind the scenes and then when I've worked with other managers that maybe were probably striving to be something

00:28:13

like that and I think after Joe said it was a there were a generation of managers that were a bit like okay I'm

00:28:18

gonna wear this I'm going to wear the scarf and I'm going to type them with

00:28:21

you know or act a bit kind of you know say those things he used to say and does say

00:28:27

um and I didn't I didn't buy it as such and even from outside when you're

00:28:30

watching manager you know you have that impression so I think probably you go okay can I take things from all these

00:28:35

managers for my journalist question yeah I did from Sam and not from others blah

00:28:39

blah but when you come to it you have to be yourself because you'll get found out

00:28:42

and you're probably right in my early days I also did that I did my first meeting at Derby again was like right

00:28:48

I'm an ex player so anyone who wants to knock on my door come and see me and

00:28:51

I'll you know I'll tell you the truth and we'll have it out or I'll you know

00:28:53

I'll give you the answer that you want and I remember like the first three weeks they kept knocking on the dock I

00:28:59

was like and I was like to do another meeting so Lads if you're gonna knock on

00:29:02

my door come to me with like facts of why you should play you know how's your

00:29:06

training you know come with something I don't want you just I didn't play on

00:29:08

Saturday like Monday morning there's like five on the door knocking and you know open policy in a door is good but

00:29:14

at the same time it was like those are like learning curves for me like I probably said that that phrase because I

00:29:19

needed to say it right yeah you know what I mean because there's a place it's

00:29:22

really so really cool things to play I want the manager to be able to speak to me all the time and when I said it I was

00:29:27

like Sam what I thought I should say and then you know you learn a little lesson

00:29:30

you know my daughter hopefully is still open now but at the same time I was probably playing the part of a manager

00:29:36

um and then you kind of go now what's real to me here you know like do I have

00:29:40

to say that it's another way of saying it or whatever and that kind of brings me to a question

00:29:44

which is wouldn't it therefore have been great for you to go and learn those

00:29:48

lessons when the stakes weren't so high um because even the stakes are super

00:29:53

high at Derby because you're figuring out Frank the manager there yeah and sometimes you don't want to be at the

00:29:57

poker table playing with real money yeah but but that's my life you know I I know

00:30:03

what you're saying and I think as a as an as a I think I think I can say this I

00:30:08

think it's an English ex-player Stephen Gerrard others that have played a high

00:30:12

level you know I've played 100 times to our country Etc I think pla the the the

00:30:16

the culture in this country is the sort of say right now you're a manager go and

00:30:20

own your stripes there because being a player of that level doesn't mean you're

00:30:23

going to be a manager so I think that could have been a route where you can kind of get a lot of fair play he went

00:30:27

down to you know division two and he's showing what he's doing and there's a

00:30:30

process the reality is that path wasn't for me you know and Mel Morris asked me

00:30:35

to take the Derby job it was a question yeah challenge yes please I'll take the

00:30:39

challenge you know when I won you there and Chelsea came to me it was a difficult time at a transfer ban you

00:30:46

know and as I was leaving it was a real transition young players what's going to

00:30:49

be there next year I think probably some big managers just have turned it down I

00:30:52

know that so it was like yeah you know what challenge I'll take it so you know

00:30:56

I don't want to try and recreate the past I think why didn't I do that because you know I've managed in four

00:31:01

years of management I've had some experience and for all the you know you'll always get criticism you know you

00:31:06

leave Chelsea people will criticize you you go to Everton you stay up you get relegated people to criticize you but at

00:31:12

the same time I'm I am resilient enough to deal with all that stuff now that's

00:31:15

been probably the beauty of having a long career in football and so my my thing is I can manage Derby I can go and

00:31:23

manage Chelsea and do it to a good level as well because I've had successes as

00:31:27

well as when it hasn't gone so well I mean that's the modern day manager so I

00:31:31

think I probably crammed in a lot of work in four years and and working at a high end level with players that will

00:31:36

test you and question you because Champions League players question you so it's just my path

00:31:43

the um I mean that's it so Champions League players questioning you you don't ever assume that happens I

00:31:50

mean I don't know a ton about what goes on in the foot in the room but yeah no I

00:31:53

think what when I say that I think in um the modern day player particularly I think in previous series it probably

00:31:59

would have been more vocal and you know but now the modern day player have a good understanding of the game a lot of

00:32:05

them have been coached in academies very very well to a high level uh when they get to the top they also when you when

00:32:11

you you know are setting out tactics they they'll have questions for you and

00:32:14

and you have to buy into that because you know the reality is what you want is them to understand what you want or

00:32:19

sometimes they say something like okay we might change that you know or whatever it might be and I think when

00:32:24

you get to the to the top level in football you have to understand the best day out now there's a they have to

00:32:30

understand you're the boss and you have to man they're very clear but at the

00:32:34

same time there will be a lot of suppliers that will challenge you would you mean by that boss come to you what

00:32:37

what but what about if that happens you know and you get a lot more of that and you I remember reading Pep Guardiola

00:32:43

once said that even if you don't know the answer pretend that you know the answer to say that yeah and you know so

00:32:47

you there is a version of that because you know when you're getting things thrown at you sometimes it's like you

00:32:52

know football is an active game and I think sometimes in the modern day we look at you know on Monday Night

00:32:56

Football you see after the event you know they should have done this or people are imagining what um you know

00:33:03

Pep Guardiola or yoga club or fantastic coaches are doing and it must be this amazing complicated thing for sure

00:33:08

they're amazing coaches but it's an active game so if you can give a good

00:33:12

message then the rest is down to the players at the same time so you just have to prep them as well as you can but

00:33:17

they will they will challenge it um that that got me thinking about when I sat with um Jamie carragher and he was

00:33:23

telling me about all the managers he had had um above him when he was playing at

00:33:26

Liverpool and then hearing from all the United players Nanny and ever and Gary and Rio about what Sir Alex was like and

00:33:33

and then reading through all of all of the managers that you've worked under I

00:33:37

mean there's so many of them from Jose to angelotti um so many of them I mean there was one

00:33:42

period where I mean the managers were being sacked every six months it feels like at Chelsea yeah

00:33:46

um and the thing I garnered from all of them is that there is actually not a successful blueprint to being a

00:33:51

successful manager there's not like a blueprint there's not a way to be a

00:33:54

successful manager some of them are tactician some of them are man managers yeah is that accurate it's very accurate

00:33:59

I I agree with that um and Chelsea is a bit a bit of a unique example because in

00:34:05

my time there they change manager a lot as you say and I don't think that's the

00:34:09

most productive way to to run a business in an idle way in terms of football because in an ideal way you kind of go

00:34:15

we trust in this manager this work with it here's the idea we're going to go

00:34:18

with it and of course it's the prerogative of the honest to change that what we did have at the time was a

00:34:23

fantastic unit within the dressing room of high Talent High personality that led

00:34:28

the dressing room so we had a great team and a great Squad and when I say that we

00:34:33

had a spine of players of John Terry myself Peter check Didier drummer Ashley Cole I could go on and there were

00:34:39

personalities and sometimes would Clash but we knew our place we knew we could rely on him I knew that I would run for

00:34:45

him and he'd run for me and we also had high Talent of a player that would video

00:34:48

drama would score in every final pretty much so I think we kind of like bridge that gap of changing managers

00:34:55

um and so I think when you come back to the the question of you know great managers I think sometimes it's um it's

00:35:00

a case of compromising with what you're working with you have to get the people

00:35:04

skills right and that's the first thing I learned as a manager for difference

00:35:07

and plan is that you have to deal with people you've got to try and Inspire every player within that group and

00:35:12

Inspire the collective so every player will have a different motivation it might be money for one it might be I

00:35:17

want to be the best striker in the world it might be I want to be in front of him

00:35:20

because I don't like him whatever that is you try and tap into and I think the

00:35:24

greatest of managers my opinion and I played under as you say a lot and I'm trying to be one is that they give you

00:35:32

something that you believe in that you can strive for and you will buy into and this and it's and sometimes it's a messy

00:35:38

process you know you watch Man City lift that treble people just now and you listed the Champions League there will

00:35:44

be so many things we don't know behind the scenes this player is unhappy had to

00:35:47

do this all these things that come together and give you that amazing moment and I had that as Chelsea as a

00:35:52

player and so if you just say go and tell me what a great managers and me to go here's an answer for you in one

00:35:58

minute it's like impossible to say man management that's what all the United

00:36:02

players said about Sir Alex it's the only thing that they all are completely

00:36:05

agree on they would say he was the best man manager and um an inconsistent leader which is an interesting concept

00:36:10

and what I mean by inconsistent leader is he would treat Gary in a different way to Nanny to Evra and they all told

00:36:16

me their stories and Rio as well told me about when um Sir Alex brought that bottle of

00:36:21

whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside and Rio doesn't know how we knew the

00:36:25

favorite brand of whiskey and how we knew his Grandad was Ill yeah Gary told me he used to tap him on the shoulder

00:36:30

and say think about your fault your grandfather's shrapnel which is still in

00:36:33

his shoulder when you go out there today that kind of bespoke tailored approach to leadership which is seems to be Sir

00:36:39

Alex Ferguson's um highest accent made sure and I think that runs into the modern day like we get very caught up in

00:36:45

in tactics and rightly so the game's moved on from those days tactically but

00:36:49

those people and and you'll know yourself you know inspiring people and as you say to be bespoke and kind of

00:36:56

individualize it and look within the group and have moments because you know if you ask me about my career you go

00:37:01

like Frank would you remember out of those 20 years like do you remember the meeting where Jose you know played you a

00:37:06

bit higher up I wouldn't he said do you remember the time that Jose said those

00:37:09

words to you that inspired you and it could be like one sentence I go yeah I remember that do you know I mean like

00:37:14

things that stick with me that I remember that made me go I'm gonna I'm gonna run for this man he's gonna make

00:37:18

me better you know and I had that and I think so what you just said there about Sir Alex Ferguson I think the great

00:37:23

managers to have you look at and they have it in different styles Pep Guardiola yoga and klopp everyone will

00:37:28

have a different style of that and that's a huge part to their success I think

00:37:32

what do you like as a manager if you had to do like a self-assessment I think you go you can ask somebody else

00:37:38

now I don't know um I know I try and be uh close to the players as I say my open door thing but

00:37:46

at the same time I think I I try and find a balance I I think the important thing for me was when I became a manager

00:37:52

was to not expect anybody any player to see it how I saw it or train how I trained or whatever you know for good or

00:37:59

for bad and you have to that's I think a bit of a skill which you know sir Alex

00:38:03

probably had perfectly so I try and be as close to the players I try and learn all the time I'm a coach I want a coach

00:38:09

on the pitch I think my biggest pleasure is coaching and improving players and particularly young players and I've had

00:38:16

the you know the fortune to work with some really good jump players at Derby I had Mason Mountain Harry Wilson for Kayo

00:38:22

tomorrow and then at Chelsea obviously Tommy Abraham extra ones and yeah and Anthony Gordon Etc so I think they are

00:38:29

the real sponges that are a real pleasure to work with and I love that part of it being able to speak to them

00:38:32

and you do find and it's a reality and I remember being an older player you're a

00:38:36

bit more cynical when you're a younger player you're like they're like a blank

00:38:40

canvas and you can you know push them and try and push them in that so I'm probably quite intense with the younger

00:38:45

players um I try and be as I say inclusive and I'm always trying to learn um and and try and just trying to be me

00:38:52

it's a hard answer that one I think you'd have to ask you know maybe a member of Staff or a player I picked the

00:38:57

right player because you probably get different answers because when you work with I worked at Chelsea recently with

00:39:02

30 players I picked you pick 11 for a game and like eight subs and the subs eight Outfield Subs the subs don't

00:39:09

really like you because they're not starting let alone the other 10 you know

00:39:11

so it's a really hard balance with a modern Squad to to get there but you have to try and make it inclusive

00:39:17

because if you're going to get anywhere you've got to go all together and that

00:39:20

was one of the problems for being Chelsea this season 30 players is it's not possible to manage that on the other

00:39:25

this isn't maybe this is even more difficult question what are you trying to work on then what are the the areas

00:39:29

of as a leader as a manager you're trying to work on because I can think of for myself I can think of a number of

00:39:34

areas where I go you know what that is still somewhere where I have a recurring when I reflect in hindsight I go I

00:39:40

need to get better here what is that for you quite a few things I would say because

00:39:46

um the other thinker thing comes in again and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so you know I always want to try and

00:39:51

improve um you know my tactical and and the personal touch and those things but I

00:39:57

think when I came away from Chelsea I realized I needed to delegate time better that was something I was

00:40:02

certainly not great at I've got you you have your staff for a reason they're

00:40:05

there to support you in a time they'll be better than you at certain things so

00:40:08

give them it you know and give them that you obviously oversee that thing and I probably spent a lot of time

00:40:14

um trying to be across everything whereas really I probably could have come back from that and save my own

00:40:19

energy so I think I'll certainly try and improve that side I did between Chelsea

00:40:22

and Everton for sure to try and save that I can um uh be pretty overreactive sometimes if I

00:40:30

see things I don't like in terms of and when I study it's always effort or

00:40:33

standards and I think I I am that's one of the things I'm biggest on is that you

00:40:38

know if you're going to make a mistake in a game I've got no problem with that

00:40:42

um if you are going to not run for your teammate if you're not going to train

00:40:44

through the week with an idea that when I train on Monday that's got a direct

00:40:47

relation to what Saturday is going to look like if that feeling isn't there then I probably can either get upset

00:40:53

with a player or maybe kind of distance to player and I think when you're working with a group you have to be

00:40:58

careful of that one because not every player has your mentality so you have to either try and bring them up to the

00:41:03

party or if not then they're going to have to not be there if you're going to have

00:41:07

success as far as I see it and that sounds really harsh but it's one of those things where you go if you can

00:41:12

work in a in a in a team and you're going to take it to exactly where you want it to be

00:41:17

out of that Squad of 25 if you've got that kind of I remember manager would say this you have you know that there's

00:41:23

your six or seven you know you're going to get every day you're going to train

00:41:25

you're going to come in they're going to be so active every day you're going to

00:41:28

have the middle group or somewhere in the middle and you had the ones that maybe I'm just coming to training you

00:41:33

know or you know I'm a bit sore today you know that sounds simplistic to say

00:41:37

but you have to try and work if you want to work in a full Direction and go okay

00:41:41

those six are with me right you try and Garner them those are the ones that can kind of pass the message those ones in

00:41:47

the middle okay can we keep pushing and working between me and the staff to try and improve them and then the ones that

00:41:52

are there come on can we help them can they come with us if not you have to speak to the club and that's where a

00:41:56

club has to be aligned to go okay if you want to go in that direction and we're

00:41:59

with you okay we'll work that out and that becomes a recruitment or players leaving the club I mean that's you know

00:42:05

that's that's the reality that has to be and that's the reality of business as

00:42:08

well um uh I've just finished writing this book and it talks about these three

00:42:13

lines and basically says if everybody in think about a person in your team and if

00:42:17

everybody in the team represented their cultural values right which is what you're talking about with your six

00:42:23

disciples there if everybody represented the cultural values with the bar with the overall Barbie raised or lowered and

00:42:28

you'll have some people who would imagine if everyone was like them like a Frank you know a Frank Lampard or a John

00:42:32

Terry how high that the cultural values would be raised then you have other people where if everyone was like them

00:42:37

you'd be relegated yeah and and what to do with those three cohorts of bar raises maintainers and barlowers and

00:42:45

that's kind of what I that's a good way of putting it I mean I and I think the

00:42:50

I think the bar raises can take some time to raise the bar but the balras can get you very quickly

00:42:57

yeah yeah that's kind of my experience because that kind of when that kind of

00:43:00

that consistency or whatever it is you know like this oh why are we doing this train why do we have to do or whatever

00:43:05

that kind of negativity which can slip in can be really contagious and in a winning Sport and as much as we're

00:43:10

talking here about great managers winning is is everything you know and it's that's obviously relative to if

00:43:15

you're a man city or in Everton like Everton will win kind of 35 40 of games

00:43:19

at Best at the moment and you know that so you know that they're going to be 65

00:43:24

or so percent of weeks whereas not that great the balras can go and they lower it quickly whereas you know if you can

00:43:31

get the razors to take control um then they that then I think generally you can kind of get there so it's a

00:43:36

really important thing that's probably one of the interesting things that as I

00:43:40

say that the transition from player to manager trying to get that because if you whether you were one of the bar

00:43:45

raisers or you're in the middle group or the Law Group when you become a manager

00:43:47

it doesn't matter what you were you've got to kind of get there get the scripts

00:43:50

of what it is and kind of just push um so that that's something I'm trying to improve on everything all

00:43:56

the time and coming away sometimes give you nice time to to have perspective and

00:44:01

just kind of go I'm going to put it in line a little bit and it looks a bit different to what I thought before that

00:44:05

experience in yeah this is I mean I guess this is why some of the the greatest managers of all time they hold

00:44:10

on to their Gary Neville's and their you know their disciples yeah and I've

00:44:15

spoken to Gary about this Gary said to me in fact when we're filming Dragonstone recently he said for those

00:44:19

last two years Sir Alex kept me there because of the my impact on the dressing room yeah not my impact on the pitch but

00:44:23

on the dressing room I could keep keep the standard High um in the modern world I was reading the

00:44:29

stats managers are getting fired quicker than ever sure and it almost it must be

00:44:33

so difficult to establish Authority when the play is aware um that the manager is going to be the

00:44:38

one to be taken out if things don't go well in business it's not like that

00:44:42

right as a CEO because I own the company and I am the manager yeah so if there's

00:44:49

if there's Behavior underneath me that's toxic and contagious I can act yeah the

00:44:53

center of authorities with me yeah whereas it seems like in a club the center of authority is really like the

00:44:58

chairman the owner yeah um sometimes the manager manages manages to get there but in the modern world we

00:45:03

don't let managers last long enough to build that Authority no and that's the

00:45:06

tough world that it is and I think you know you probably have to earn the right as a manager to get to a club maybe when

00:45:12

you look at the perfect models right at the top you know and Manchester City is a good one to talk about now I work with

00:45:17

the city group I have one year playing there and I could see when I was there they hadn't arrived at that point but I

00:45:22

could see with the stability from above and how it run and the vision it was like we're gonna get they were going to

00:45:27

get somewhere because they had a great structure and it wasn't like it was going to get pulled and pushed and

00:45:32

pulled for you know a small period of time so we're going to get there and then they hired pep you know they had

00:45:36

not difficult first year but the first year was kind of him finding his way I need this I need this and then he's

00:45:41

fantastic coach and they have great players but if you don't have that aligned thing where as you said the most

00:45:46

important person at the club in the modern day in my opinion is the owner and it is a structure at the top because

00:45:51

they really they set the time maybe it's financially maybe it's with the sporting

00:45:55

directors and recruitment because you'll be as good as the players you recruit a

00:46:00

great manager again I don't want to sit here and drop names that said to me was

00:46:03

when we finished it um my first thing that Everton we just stayed up skin of our teeth and he was like randomly to

00:46:08

say congratulations he went Frank don't rest 80 of your work for next season

00:46:12

will be done in the next month so it was recruitment so like 20 will be what you

00:46:17

do next year and now the 80 is like bringing the right players so I think you know like that that alignment as I

00:46:23

keep saying there is something that you know if you can get um and and I know I know they're great

00:46:28

owners and they're great supporting directors and Recruitment and the manager and the manager is so you know

00:46:33

critical to it but when you look at last season 13 managers left their Club I think it's 13 out of 20 clubs and you're

00:46:40

talking about you know Antonio Conte and you're talking about Thomas you know

00:46:44

manages at huge successes it shows you that the landscape's changed to the point where the manager will be culpable

00:46:50

and I think you have to come you have to be at peace with that but you have to try and get to the point very quickly

00:46:55

where you have success and that's tough because winning is and the modern world

00:46:59

of social media and reaction is like get him out you know get the next one in you

00:47:04

know sometimes maybe they're right maybe the manager is culpable but other times

00:47:07

there are there are many things and to come back to your original point about players and those stallwalls and the

00:47:12

Gary Neville's and the James Milner at Liverpool in the last whatever years you

00:47:16

know people on the outside I think it's very easy to look at the superstars and

00:47:20

most sellers in there I I can guarantee you and I know this firsthand from speaking to people people like James

00:47:25

Milner and Jordan Henderson have absolutely set the tone of that club for the last whatever years during

00:47:31

great success and if you don't have that kind of those drivers within that top

00:47:36

six all right I think it's very hard to sustain its success or get success and

00:47:41

again back to my Chelsea days we had that naturally and we were actually quite diverse so it was like John Terry

00:47:47

was like the real Captain like heart on his sleeve you could see it every day I was probably like more quiet but like a

00:47:52

trainer and standards and myself and trying to hope that that would bring people with us Didier was this sort of

00:47:58

charismatic from the Ivory Coast and kind of brought in you know that section of the dressing room and he took a pair

00:48:03

of checks about five languages Ashley Carl was such a nice lad and you know best left back the country's probably

00:48:09

ever seen so we had this amazing group and like if others aren't going to follow that then very quickly it was

00:48:14

like you're not going to make it regardless of the manager change it's like you want you won't survive the

00:48:19

dressing room and that's kind of how it was it reminded me of a quote that I've

00:48:23

said on this podcast before which is when the culture is strong the new people become the culture and when the

00:48:26

coaches week the culture becomes the new people right because when you have those

00:48:30

that cord of disciples someone coming in they'll stand out so much yeah if they

00:48:34

don't fit in with you Didier Frank Etc that they'll instantly be expelled yeah

00:48:38

but when the culture is weak someone will come in and they'll actually influence yeah the Dynamics and that's

00:48:42

when you're really from my experience in business is when you're really really

00:48:45

screwed no that's interesting because I think in football as well because it's

00:48:49

so topical it's just so much conversation around it that you know I managed to Chelsea for seven weeks I

00:48:54

think I did and I spoke a lot about standards and I was a bit I'm not saying

00:48:58

standards to him I saw you say in every post match yeah I know it wasn't like

00:49:02

not trying to be clever and go I'm just gonna this is my line now standards but

00:49:05

it was like it was very evident to me when I walked in um because you know having worked at Chelsea as a coach

00:49:12

before and as a player I I do know the standards I do know that and this is not a direct criticism of the players either

00:49:18

because when I look at the player situations where they were and I understood how it'd been a long year I

00:49:23

walked in on with 10 games to go they've been there for the whole season and a

00:49:27

lot of players were not playing they were probably going to leave which we're

00:49:30

seeing now whether they were going to leave with a club wanted some leave or they or they hadn't been playing with

00:49:34

the previous managers and I could see in training that it wasn't the level wasn't

00:49:38

enough it wasn't enough to go and get a result you know whoever you might want

00:49:43

to say a Brentford at home or at let alone Real Madrid it wasn't enough and I

00:49:47

can say this now because I said this to the players and again it's not an individual criticism that applies

00:49:51

because I also when you're trying to say you want to be a manager you have to

00:49:54

have a personal understanding of like human nature if I'm a player that's not

00:49:58

been planned for the last seven months and I think I'm leaving in four weeks

00:50:01

time I'm probably going to struggle to motivate that player you know I'm not

00:50:05

I've Got Magic one to motivate that player so I think it was that probably the my biggest learning out of Chelsea

00:50:10

was when you talk about standards and culture I think people get it talks about standards you know what he talks

00:50:15

about his culture and I you know maybe I had to catch myself on and not cite every interview but at the same time it

00:50:21

was if you don't have a building block of Standards then that winning culture

00:50:24

that everyone goes what's winning culture you go well then me up I'll try

00:50:27

and explain to you but it has to start with a basic standard and which for me is always like trained to a level where

00:50:32

you're going to push your teammate he's going to push you and then we're going

00:50:35

to be as competitive as it can be we don't have to win not every team can win

00:50:38

you know this Manchester City pretty much win the league every year at the minute so what's success for everybody

00:50:42

else for Brighton it's coming six or whatever for Newcastle it's wow Champions League that's huge success so

00:50:48

everyone has a version but my guess is those teams that have over performed outperformed they've got something there

00:50:54

which is a basic standard that they just build on and you know to be fair to Chelsea they're in a position now where

00:51:00

that's needs to be worked on again it's a transitional time that brings me to the quote you said

00:51:05

after your Newcastle game which was the standards collectively have dropped I can be honest now um because it's your

00:51:10

last game I might not see them for some time anymore but low standards are a symptom of something further Upstream

00:51:16

that's happened and we saw this at Manchester United I'm a big man united

00:51:19

fan I've seen a a decade five years of just like chaos where we've got these

00:51:24

amazing players but one plus one equals 1.5 we call it dis economies of scale yeah in great culture one plus one

00:51:31

equals three you know where you can make great average players together play yeah

00:51:35

amazing the football of their lives the furthest Upstream thing where did the standard start to slip what is the thing

00:51:41

that happens in a club like Chelsea in your experience when you went back there that had caused that dropping of

00:51:47

Standards which we now saw on the pitch with your sort of 10 games there well I think um

00:51:52

when I was tongue-in-cheek by the way when I said I'm not going to see them again because it was a bit like as I

00:51:57

said I wouldn't say I've hadn't said it to him and I've said it a few times but

00:52:00

the position of it was that and I think the biggest thing about the standards thing was the the size of the squad it

00:52:07

was the the motivation of players that um you're gonna not play or you're out

00:52:13

of the Champions League squad or these things like it's like asking you know

00:52:17

one of you you I don't know you maybe love doing this this is like one of your

00:52:21

great mom you know I want to sit and you want to speak to all these fantastic people that you speak to so thanks for

00:52:25

your prep Steven now Peter Jones is going to do it cheers how long are you going to go with

00:52:31

that yeah so and I think in football that's is that's a challenge with 20 or

00:52:35

so players which is the modern Squad but with with Chelsea it's got very big to

00:52:39

the point where it's just how I felt where I can say you know I'm not criticizing that player for a dropping

00:52:45

standards I want to try and get something out of him because I had a short period I want to try and get

00:52:48

something out of him so I'll try but then when you actually look at it you kind of go yeah but he's had this for a

00:52:53

long time where he's not playing so he's not now being competitive with that

00:52:56

player who is playing so that plays pretty comfortable too because he's not pushing him so you kind of get this

00:53:01

thing where you're like you know we probably took it for granted in some of my better days at Chelsea when we were

00:53:06

successful of like this kind of thing that works you know it wasn't even a thing you said you know you didn't have

00:53:11

to sort of have a meeting every day and go you know one of those standards culture you know a nice pie chart and

00:53:15

that's what that is it was almost like this is what we do and at the minute sometimes for whatever reason there's a

00:53:21

transition of maybe new ownership you know not everything was perfect before the new ownership I was there before no

00:53:25

ownership as well like to find consistency as Chelsea would really want of winning Premier League titles and

00:53:31

challenging has been a good few years now so I think that getting the squad right

00:53:36

um being able probably a fresh voice as a manager coming in now who's obviously

00:53:40

a fantastic manager with a great record to come in and go no this is the way and

00:53:44

now the squad looks compact you're going to compete with each other and try and

00:53:48

create a great environment everyone is a great environment to have success you know you cannot have a success with that

00:53:53

team spirit and togetherness so when I got there I could just see that that the the spirit and the togetherness was not

00:53:59

then it was nothing bad you know like it was not bad to go for the week I could just see like you have to train Elite to

00:54:04

be elite you have to and that's not you know the Monday players play every few

00:54:08

days sometimes when I say that it's not like show me how many Sprints you can do

00:54:11

every day it's like okay if we're doing prep tomorrow give me that intensity of

00:54:15

of thought about what what this is for you and I mean sit in your face but in the Chelsea when you did that you had to

00:54:21

go right if I want to really focus on the 10 or 11 for tomorrow that means I've got to have like 18 players over

00:54:27

there and you kind of saw the body language as they walked off some of them that they were like again because

00:54:32

they've been having it all season some of them so I on a human level I completely understood and in the end it

00:54:37

was like I came back here because obviously this was an opportunity to come to my club you know Chelsea a Club

00:54:43

close to my heart but as soon as I got in I realized that probably I thought you know what 30 players but I can

00:54:49

motivate in six seven weeks because it's not like a long term thing I can come in

00:54:52

and be fresh um but in terms of when I came in I noticed very quickly that some players

00:54:58

are probably thinking about the season's going to Peter out and what's the future

00:55:01

going to look like and that was a a difficult situation it never crossed my mind that's the size of the squad has

00:55:08

such a big impact but it makes perfect sense because you need that sort of healthy competition and I believe your

00:55:14

first team was was it 32 players yeah which is more than you're allowed to register for the Premier League or

00:55:19

Champions League so you had this kind of surplus of a lot of players a few a few

00:55:23

are always injured probably you know so that comes down a bit but it's a surplus

00:55:26

and it's a surplus of um yeah the the the makeup of the squad is International Players generally

00:55:34

because if there were a couple of young players but when you try and build a squad it'll be like this is you know

00:55:38

this is my core kind of 15 or 16 and then you go and maybe these these two experienced players that might not need

00:55:43

to play really and then we've got these kids that are waiting and they're like

00:55:45

just happy to be there they want to play they're going to be training and if you

00:55:49

give them an opportunity they'll be like but when you have like international

00:55:51

players in a big number then of course you know you're telling Internationals

00:55:56

you've got to stay at home it's not it's not easy and you know to have the

00:56:00

conversation every Friday with them and get them lined up coming in is also not easy for your own energy do you know

00:56:05

what I mean so I that's not easy I don't care how what kind of uh a manager you

00:56:11

are like it's like next you're not playing okay next you're not playing you

00:56:15

know like whatever however you try and box that up to a player eventually they'll probably have I know I'm not

00:56:20

playing you know like stop telling me this do you know what I mean so I think you know that that was an

00:56:24

interesting learning curve for me like an interim job is is what it is um and I kept getting asked you know

00:56:30

people it was kind of frustrating but at times like are you finding this so hard

00:56:33

and you find this hard I was like you know what I'm back home in the club that

00:56:36

I love you know a fantastic training around I'm doing everything I can in this job to try and improve it but there

00:56:41

were I knew behind the scenes there are a lot of things you know myself and my staff we want to improve but we want to

00:56:46

coach we want to sort of when you when you lack those Basics and as I say I I think there's an understanding the club

00:56:52

that it has to change now I think it has to it has to change then if you like those Basics then it it's really hard to

00:56:59

get where you want to get to what how does that happen though so there's these

00:57:03

32 players and then Chelsea spends more money than it I think anyone's ever spent in a window in that sort of

00:57:08

January window you bring in all of these players on these long contracts which I've never heard before I think it was

00:57:13

like eight year contracts and they're all like class amazing individual players

00:57:19

um is that a is that because the the new owner doesn't understand those dynamics

00:57:26

of football because that's what it seemed like for me I thought either this is a genius or an idiot yeah you know I

00:57:32

don't want to criticize anyone like on a personal level but as a fan looking and

00:57:35

I go signing these players on eight year contracts they're great players spending

00:57:38

all this money the impact on culture when you just throw stars in at such quantity yeah it looked it looked like

00:57:46

an experience and um naivety I think that's um that's understood now in terms of what

00:57:53

it's meant with those 30 players and I think you've seen that now in that

00:57:56

already I think I'm six seven eight players have left so I think but the intentions are

00:58:01

certainly good I know that because I work the owners gave me an opportunity to go in there and I had a good

00:58:05

relationship with them their intentions to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing they want to take the club and be the

00:58:11

best you know they have great intentions so now I think those younger players now

00:58:16

with um a new voice a new manager the squad come inside I think they'll have a

00:58:21

greater chance to show what they've got anyway and they're talented players and

00:58:25

you know I remember being in Chelsea when Eden Hazard arrived and pre-season was like is this kid maybe a bit lazy

00:58:30

looking you know it was a bit kind of strolling around this kid definitely and then that first season it was like I

00:58:35

know it's really good and then on the second and Thursdays like now this kid's

00:58:38

one of the best players the Premier League's seen or whatever see everyone video drug but like you can go through

00:58:42

all these players who are who are like absolute Legends now if you're asking

00:58:46

you know those five six seven players to come in and hit the ground running in a

00:58:51

difficult moment for the club it's understandable so I think as a Chelsea fan you know you look at it and kind of

00:58:56

go right okay that that is positive there's Talent there okay it needs to be

00:59:00

worked with now I'm sure that you can see the squads getting trimmed and as I

00:59:04

can say you know hand on heart the intentions of the owners is absolutely no they've spent that money because they

00:59:08

want to do well now if they're going to address the situation a bit that's their

00:59:12

strategy going forward but I do think you know you'll see players like Enzo Fernandez Madrid and these players

00:59:18

madoiki young players they're going to develop and they're going to be big

00:59:21

players for the club they you have to get the structure writing the strategy right going forward what what's a my

00:59:27

thing is that adding like I know six or seven of these players all at once pretty much halfway through the season

00:59:34

um in a squad that's already struggling to figure out who it is under Graham

00:59:39

Potter um it begs the question like who's doing the recruitment here because at other

00:59:44

clubs it's a much more Strate it seems like a much more strategic and intentional and football driven approach

00:59:51

to recruitment whereas from what I saw at Chelsea and I have actually spoken to some people at Chelsea who are involved

00:59:56

in recruitment it seemed like chaos yeah I mean I wasn't there for that period

01:00:01

right so that was in I got there in April and like so January was the last window and obviously they spent last

01:00:06

summer but I think the the change of ownership and then obviously there's some people moved on who were in the

01:00:14

hierarchy of the club and so they was changing so there was a big change of structure so I think you have to give

01:00:19

um some time and some leeway for the process and they're certainly now are sporting directors recruitment people in

01:00:27

there having work with them who are very talented very hungry you know good to go

01:00:32

and I think now it will be um up to them to take the club forward they haven't signed bad players I think

01:00:38

this maybe the the strategy of bringing them all in at that time you know looks a bit excitable at

01:00:43

the minute as in terms of there's a lot of players to success but I think probably there's a long game and I think

01:00:47

there's a plan and I think probably most huge clubs like Chelsea have had a version of what this period is

01:00:54

Manchester United you mentioned there Arsenal for quite a long time Liverpool for periods you know so I think um we

01:01:00

have to give different I think to to over judge now when I think they have signed some good players would be to to

01:01:06

be over critical I think at the moment I think that the proof will be now how these players develop once now it feels

01:01:12

a bit more settled going forward I think that's I think that's all true I think

01:01:15

um what's the optimal way for player recruitment to happen in your opinion because I've you often hear about these

01:01:22

stories of where you know I know will take charge of a club and then they'll

01:01:25

just decide who they want which is probably what I'd be like if I was an owner I think I would like football

01:01:29

manager I think I just buy who I who I want to buy who I think looks good um Manchester United suffered with that it

01:01:35

felt like our decisions were commercial decisions as opposed to footballing decisions then when Eric 10 hugs come in

01:01:39

it feels a bit more like kids football decisions and what in your opinion and then I did speak to some people at

01:01:45

Chelsea because I actually went to I was invited to uh sit with Richard Arnold in

01:01:49

a couple of the Manchester United Executives and when we played Chelsea at Old Trafford I was in the director's box

01:01:55

okay so I sat with the like sport the new sporting director at Chelsea yeah um and he said there's now two sporting

01:02:00

directors I believe yeah um so it's interesting to talk to them um but what is the about the optimal way

01:02:06

for recruitment to happen in your opinion well I think um with a with a you have to understand

01:02:11

what you want the the philosophy and the identity of the club to be so for instance I think Manchester City are

01:02:19

quite firm in the idea when they the pep guardios come in and they're sporting

01:02:24

directors have worked at Barcelona previously with him that this is how we want to play this is a manager that's

01:02:28

going to deliver that style so here's how we recruit for that style Chelsea has always been a bit different for me

01:02:33

the the beautiful game the ticket package is called a man city has not been Chelsea style it's been more of a

01:02:39

winning machine and different kind of way you know and in my day was more of a powerful team that was probably were

01:02:45

good on the eye but we were not that kind of you know past past we were like powerful and effective so I think you

01:02:51

have to understand what you want to be and once you get to that point you probably the first thing is to recruit a

01:02:55

coach that you know Works within that and then you know that's the kind of Coach you want because this is one obey

01:03:00

those conversations or an interview process and then once you get to that point I think the recruitment has to be

01:03:05

joined up depending on how active the owner wants to be and I I respect and appreciate active owners as their clubs

01:03:13

their prerogative and then the sporting directors and the manager and then obviously recruitment which brings all

01:03:19

the data analysis into the picture and it has to be joined up and it has you have to be all very confident by the

01:03:25

time you want to bring in a player that you're going yeah this is the play we

01:03:27

want to bring in they're always one or two or three options because you may not

01:03:30

get Target number one but I think you have to be able to recruit for the style that you want to be so the coach really

01:03:36

has to have a big buy into that as well but you as a coach in the Monday you understand and the process I appreciate

01:03:42

being aligned and having other people not just responsible for who you're bringing in but also like giving me

01:03:47

something that I don't know I'm not there siphon through the data you know

01:03:51

they have to show you that data and here's the reasons why the videos people

01:03:54

have watched them and also the personality of the player because not to say you're going to sign you know 10

01:04:01

James milners because their character's amazing and they're professionalism but

01:04:05

you need to know they're going to come in and address room who's going to

01:04:07

they're going to be good for the dressing room and they're going to help

01:04:09

in terms of how you drive forward in terms of their personality one of the one of the key questions I

01:04:14

want to answer and I wanted to ask you today is like how would you have what would have had to happen to avoid the

01:04:20

situation where you had that unhealthy culture at Chelsea behind the scenes in those when you came back in as

01:04:26

the interim what would have what could you have done to avoid that happening say you're in the you know if you were

01:04:32

if you could in hindsight have a wand and correct things that were done I get the first point which was about smaller

01:04:38

Squad size um what else what else avoids that from my from my first day in there you're

01:04:45

you're a um a genie and you can know what you know about the what you inherited there what would have had to

01:04:51

be done previously to avoid you inheriting that the smallest Squad is the first thing

01:04:56

that I got yeah smaller Squad I mean some things are just a bit you know like there there are phases you

01:05:03

know and I think Chelsea um they won the Champions League I left they won the Champions League like three

01:05:09

or four months after I left and at that point you kind of go okay where's the

01:05:14

next move and you kind of go at how was recruitment then how what things worked then and maybe some players left during

01:05:21

that period maybe in terms of recruitment you wanted to bring in maybe some people be like the the future in

01:05:27

terms of that I when I was at Chelsea before I wanted to bring in Declan rice I was like this this kid's gonna be the

01:05:32

the captain of Chelsea for the next you know 10 years it didn't happen but anyway but I think in terms of those

01:05:38

things it's hard for me to sit here and kind of dissect you know other people's

01:05:42

work in that period in between you know like I would have maybe had an idea it wasn't my idea because I'd already left

01:05:47

the club so maybe like when I came in it was it's not it's really hard for me to

01:05:51

kind of dissect all those moves you know I came into what I came into so you know

01:05:56

that's I think I'd probably be a little bit casual for me to kind of go they

01:05:59

should have done this you know like yeah it's a hindsightly one that's yeah it's

01:06:02

kind of me wondering just because I've been a man united fan and I've seen that

01:06:05

happen and I saw obviously Sir Alex Ferguson leave and then we just had these 10 years of what I describe as

01:06:10

like confused chaos and I'm trying to figure out almost like how an innocer Alex Ferguson situation how he we could

01:06:16

have avoided that if at all possible yeah I mean it's such a big figure um that's difficult isn't it I don't

01:06:22

know enough about Manchester United but I do I can understand why after Sir Alex

01:06:26

leaving and also pivotal players will probably come into the end of their time during the same time as him leaving to

01:06:34

replace that and keep moving forward I mean you can there might have been mistakes and it's not my thing but I can

01:06:39

understand why it feels like a long period for a club the size of Manchester United but it just shows you that I

01:06:43

think that how Cutthroat and fast moving this premier league is because if you come off the gas guess in terms of

01:06:49

recruitment or whatever or you have a bad time coming back up there people think oh yeah you know you're Chelsea

01:06:54

you've been a Champions League again next year or Arsenal you'll be there

01:06:57

like I still had to work a long time to come back and challenge for The League last year with a lot of work and you

01:07:04

know people were criticizing in the beginning and now you know they've worked together and stuck together and

01:07:09

recruited really well and now they're ready to go so I mean it's not I don't

01:07:13

think we should expect even you being a Manchester United fan or me having a Chelsea head on that next year it's

01:07:17

going to be great like it's everyone else is moving forward too you know when you get that call the interim Court

01:07:25

you've just left Everton yeah um you're out of work um grandpot has been released from his

01:07:32

responsibilities what's going through your head when they say we want you to come back in and take

01:07:39

an into a managing role if I was a flyer on the wall and when that phone call happens

01:07:45

um you nearly were yeah so I know yeah I mean I wasn't going to tell the story but no I could tell it

01:07:54

for you I was coming to meet you and I rang you to say sorry I'm gonna become

01:07:57

Chelsea manager that that meeting they you know people arrived at my house that afternoon so well just because you

01:08:02

didn't tell me that exactly you said I can't come and I Can't Tell You Why then

01:08:06

I told you after that yeah you told me okay but I'm not an idiot yeah all right

01:08:10

okay I kind of inferred maybe okay so anyway I mean no I think probably the the it's normal that I consider

01:08:17

everything and you know I probably considered it as in firstly it's a club very close to my

01:08:23

heart as I said before a challenge of working and it was like we had two games against Real Madrid and

01:08:29

we had the season to pan out we had a difficult running so I was fully aware of that

01:08:33

um and I know maybe like you know I do love a challenge if that challenge had been probably any other club other than

01:08:40

Chelsea I probably would have said no I was very happy to be at home as such in that period I wasn't fighting to get a

01:08:44

job at that period um so it was probably a bit of head and heart um I'm not sure what probably heart

01:08:52

probably was a bit more substantial in this one than the head because I suppose if you look back again we're in that

01:08:58

hindsight position but you know what were my neck what will my positive outcomes what are my negative ones the

01:09:03

minute we didn't get through against Real Madrid which probably a lot of people would have bet on

01:09:08

um you're kind of into that zone of end of season and what you're playing for as

01:09:11

a club like Chelsea and that's not the normal Chelsea should be playing for something and in the end we played for

01:09:16

not so much and of course another reason my motivation come down so I probably could have been a bit more ahead of the

01:09:22

game than that whether that would have changed my mind I don't have a regret

01:09:24

about doing it I went back there if people from the outside want to um you know criticize or have a view on it from the

01:09:32

outside for six or seven weeks work I've got no problem with that I worked at

01:09:35

Chelsea before I worked at other clubs and you know it's another experience it

01:09:40

wasn't my most favorite experience in my footballing career I won't lie but it's

01:09:44

an experience and I have learned out of it not so not so much but I've mentioned

01:09:48

a few of the things not your favorite experience did you enjoy it be honest um I enjoyed the first few weeks I felt

01:09:56

like I was back at Cobham I know so many people there I was like into the challenge

01:10:00

in the middle bit I probably started to understand more that there's there's a

01:10:06

lack of you know what we've spoken about um and then in the last week we had Man

01:10:10

City away Manchester United away in Newcastle at home as I run in and I was like okay let's get through this week

01:10:16

because I could see that the players were ready for the season to finish you know it's again some of it I got on a

01:10:23

human level does not hurt you to some degree like because you love this club so much and you're a winner and if you

01:10:28

see these players have checked out you're you know it's not just they're

01:10:31

checking out on you as a manager but they're checking out in the club that you love yeah as a general as a general

01:10:36

it didn't hurt me because having worked in football for a period never been a player a long time I've

01:10:41

seen a lot of these instances and I'm not holding the players to my standard

01:10:47

as such and and a lot of them I didn't know the backstory in the Side Stories I

01:10:51

could get that they were moving on so you know if a player is moving on they might just not you know they might not

01:10:55

be ready for those last few games they might have a bit of an issue or something and you know but there's no

01:11:00

way that you you can accept that there's no but but is it like well put it this way I don't wanna I don't want

01:11:05

to come here and Shout too much because in a short period um it's hard for me to make too many

01:11:10

statements what I will say is that I think I unders I understood the role of being interim and I understood that

01:11:17

probably there was not much there's certainly not much the game for me saying uh that was so bad or that was

01:11:23

so bad now because when I look back I'll probably just try and take my own thing

01:11:26

out of it and I don't I don't want to go there I didn't work long enough with the

01:11:30

players to be there to one guy and I can't believe that happened at the end of the season you know I walked into a

01:11:33

position with some of them were a bit disenchanted or whatever and I'm not going to tell that that player that you

01:11:38

shouldn't feel like this but I'll try and drive them and drive them amongst

01:11:40

the group but it's not for me to go because a lot of players will sit with a

01:11:43

couple of players sat with me and said listen I'm going to be leaving in the

01:11:45

summer and find it a bit difficult I'm like okay I get that I'm not going to

01:11:49

change that in four weeks or whatever so yeah so what was the objective then in the in the four weeks when you're

01:11:54

thinking about when you realized that what was the sort of behind the scenes context

01:11:59

do your objective shifts and shifts slightly and go okay success here looks now looks like this

01:12:05

for me yeah in reality and I didn't get that because it would be results you

01:12:10

know because everyone would um would judge me on results so in terms of me it would be success here to have got

01:12:17

better results in that period of time and come through there working at a high level Club again you know it's it's

01:12:22

extreme pressures it's the media is the Players it's everything is trying to get

01:12:26

results in games and in some games we competed against Real Madrid we competed against Manchester City we competed but

01:12:32

you know that wasn't to be but that was my version of success but you know football is not that simple you know

01:12:37

so many journalists ask you after if you you kind of like regret taking the job and your answer's always been like no

01:12:42

because I've learned a lot it's your Club it's Chelsea um however had you known the context and

01:12:49

this is only something we can know in hindsight we can't know it in foresight

01:12:52

if there was some magic Genie that could have shown you the context the behind the scenes the Dynamics the 32 players

01:12:59

the culture honestly do you think you would have made a different decision because I

01:13:05

think I would have yeah but we don't have hindsight obviously we it's a magical thing that yeah but I think

01:13:11

probably and you and you might think I'm wrong for saying this but you would

01:13:14

probably be taking some emotion out of it from my point and also just how I am about the challenge of going into that

01:13:21

so if you say all right all the context is here Frank but you're not going to

01:13:24

know what the results are yet but here's all the context you know this player is

01:13:27

disenchanted I kind of knew that this is how it's working I'm not I would be like

01:13:31

okay this is what I've got to work with can I get results and whether I was um misguided in my own thoughts I

01:13:37

probably would have gone yeah I would do that if I've got to be honest it's too

01:13:41

easy for me to say I wouldn't have done it for that and and nobody gave me that

01:13:44

what you said if you had that in an Ideal World I understand what you're saying and again that's why people might

01:13:49

look I don't I generally don't have a problem with you know someone how I

01:13:53

would possibly have a view from the outside on someone doing what I did I don't think it's like changed the world

01:13:57

I think my I played for 13 years at Chelsea I've coached them before in the Champions League for two years on the

01:14:02

truck like I don't think that whether people want to have a view on me I don't

01:14:05

worry about about that I went back for that challenge at that period and you know we didn't get the results I wanted

01:14:11

I know a lot of the reasons why I'll take the responsibility for my reasons why

01:14:15

um and that was it you know I don't have a big issue with it it's like because

01:14:18

it's Chelsea's so topical you manage chose it's one of the biggest clubs in

01:14:21

the world and it's it's one of those clubs that takes so much especially in

01:14:24

the Roman Abram which is so much interest because there's a turnover you know lose one or two games and it's like

01:14:29

oh what's happening here so you know it's uh I'm big enough and strong enough

01:14:34

to handle that stuff so you would have having seen the context you would have backed yourself regardless I don't

01:14:40

regardless that sounds like I'm thinking I'm some Superman that turned out not to

01:14:43

be Superman you know what I mean I don't I don't I don't know you're asking me so

01:14:48

hypothetical the season ends eventually um relief relieved in any way how do you

01:14:54

feel it um the last as I said last couple of weeks were quite tough because it was seeing that season that's not for

01:15:00

someone like me and for a club like Chelsea like it's not a nice place to be

01:15:03

you know I want to want to challenge for things and that's that's not nice I

01:15:06

release probably yeah um because I knew it would end and it ended and it wasn't that nice of time

01:15:11

time to have holidays that I've planned before yeah for sure um and time to reflect and I haven't got

01:15:18

a huge amount of Reflections on it you know a lot of people have but I haven't

01:15:21

I've got more Reflections on the year at Everton and a 18 months at Chelsea before in Derby this this period was so

01:15:27

abstract in a way for me that interim rail was so different that I I can't put

01:15:31

it into a context of like I wish I'd gone on a meeting on day one if I'd have

01:15:34

done a meeting about culture I think they would it would have changed like I don't it wouldn't have changed you know

01:15:39

if my tactics were slightly different in that game I don't believe it would have

01:15:42

changed and me overthink I would definitely think that if it was there so you know I might be right or wrong but

01:15:47

so I don't so relief and a feeling of like I wish they'd gone better you know

01:15:51

that's really nature and I wanted it to be better because I'm Chelsea person you

01:15:55

know the Chelsea fans are fantastic with me in this modern world I'm not saying

01:15:59

Flick online you'll find everyone fantastic but in terms of Stanford bridge I think there's an understanding

01:16:04

at the moment the club's not where he wants to be and Chelsea fans actually pretty good with that there's some other

01:16:09

clubs that would be like we lost at home to Brentford two-nil and like there'll

01:16:12

be some clubs that would be fans that would be a bit more vocal they were actually pretty good I think you know

01:16:16

they're waiting to see something better this year but they've also Chelsea fans

01:16:20

watch the team in the second division in the in the 80s and and seen some struggles over the years you know the

01:16:26

old Affair and so I do think that the success that they've enjoyed as a club

01:16:31

for these 20 years or so it's a real appreciation of it and you know I don't

01:16:36

want to go on forever but I do think they understand it's a difficult moment

01:16:38

I certainly felt that at Stamford Bridge yeah they were super they were chanting

01:16:42

your name even at all traffic when I was there yeah um even though the scoreline

01:16:46

wasn't great and yeah I actually do think that the Chelsea fans have understood that the new ownership what

01:16:50

you said to their intentions are good yeah and I think they can they can respect they've brought really good

01:16:54

players there's a transitional moment but I think they they all appreciate that

01:16:58

um all of that stuff all of that noise online Christine you family you said mentioned scrolling online how does one

01:17:05

yeah keep those two worlds apart so that you can focus on your job without letting the outside world in too much

01:17:11

wait so have you got a strategy what's your I don't scroll too much you don't

01:17:15

scroll no scroll at all very very occasionally do you have the apps the social networking apps and stuff I have

01:17:21

Instagram right okay which I'm not but I have an Instagram page but I'm not very

01:17:25

active on it's just not really me um so I don't really I scroll for like

01:17:31

nosiness you know what I run up to and then I have a few friends and stuff or whatever

01:17:35

um but I don't actively do it because uh let's say I don't have the time to do

01:17:40

it in terms of myself it's just not something and I appreciate anyone else wants to show themselves you know

01:17:44

somebody then or in a gym like that's their prerogative I've got no problem

01:17:48

with that I just it's for me it's just not something I do and then doing that's

01:17:51

a nice light I'm quite a boxer in my life when I said that I mean I box off things and when I on a box of I don't

01:17:57

want to hear that um you know what some fan and sound so he's gonna say about me

01:18:02

here and flick on the comments from a Chelsea post I would just flick by that I try and stay aware of media because I

01:18:08

think it's I do press conferences every four days you have to understand what

01:18:12

the tone is of what maybe people are writing about you or you know the journalists how do you how do you do

01:18:18

that have you got like someone that comes and briefs you in the morning yeah and they tell you what you need to know

01:18:22

yeah uh okay yeah yes and I would I would tap into it a bit in the week whether I'm flicking on certain websites

01:18:28

through the week and I wouldn't obviously go in into the story Into the comments so we'll kind of go into

01:18:33

because you've got to be across things I will do that but I think it's very

01:18:36

unhealthy to to scroll but I I found that as a my playing career missed out the social media came in towards the end

01:18:43

and I'm so thankful we used to just have the newspapers giving us like three out

01:18:47

of ten when we played for England and we got knocked out of the World Cup right and that was hard about looking at the

01:18:52

paper to see what they gave you and that was a version of that and then the social media so I I don't envy the

01:18:58

modern player as a manager I think it's a bit different I'm not in a place where

01:19:02

I scroll so I've done in videos younger players men and women now that are coming through and have sort of

01:19:08

household names and it's getting so much attention and so much of its negative I

01:19:12

think it's incredible that we got to that stage that there's that amount of

01:19:16

hate for but it's so easy to be hateful um and my my I would try and say to the

01:19:23

young players don't look at it but the minute the game finishes they're flicking and it's it's difficult in your

01:19:30

professional career what has been what do you kind of count down as the hardest moment in terms of scrutiny in your

01:19:35

professional and like you're playing create and you managerial career what is

01:19:38

been not the hardest moment for you playing for England really yeah it was 2006 the 2006 World Cup I think I had

01:19:44

wrote the record for shots a goal without scoring classic isn't they disallowed one that should have gone in

01:19:50

that was in 2010 okay so 2006 I think I had like 32 shots or something I went in

01:19:55

as England player of the year I'd had a good year or two playing for England so

01:19:58

I got myself in there and was becoming you know uh you know in fiction the same and then

01:20:04

I went there having scored some goals in the lead up scoring at Chelsea and just

01:20:07

had a tournament and it wouldn't go in for me and then that played on my mind

01:20:12

and games I was like second guessing myself a little bit in the game and probably off the back of that there's a

01:20:16

lot of criticism um for myself for some others I remember us Chelsea boys getting a lot of

01:20:23

criticism for the next six months every away game that we went to was like you let

01:20:28

your country Down the song how does that compare to being a manager in terms of criticism I found it harder

01:20:33

as a player I don't know whether it's just maturity um because uh as a player I don't know

01:20:39

maybe it's in my 20s um I found it harder as a manager I think it's a it's a different version of

01:20:46

criticism and um I think as a player I don't know why I found it harder if I'm a flyer on the

01:20:53

wall after a bad defeat what do I see you probably see a bit of uh of a going over the situation kind of face

01:21:03

um and it's different I have certain games that they will affect you and it might not be the one you'd expect you

01:21:08

know the Manchester United you talked about there we lost 4-1 was it and that one might be different because I kind of

01:21:13

know where we're at this season's Peter and out you know we play some good stuff

01:21:16

I don't know whatever and there might be another game that you know we lost and

01:21:20

it really affected me because maybe think something I did or should have done or a substitution so on those bad

01:21:25

ones you would see the face and you know like I would you know I kind of go into

01:21:29

my show I was like I'm soaking in my bedroom I'm big big boy you know um but

01:21:33

you know maybe I have a glass of wine stew on it don't get to bed till quite

01:21:37

late and then you have to go again you know like it's a great sort of adage that you can people go you learn more

01:21:42

from defeat you don't feel like that straight away but you have to be big enough to go over the game again what's

01:21:48

the strategy now what's the you know the solution to that what do we do wrong and

01:21:52

and that's what it is you can't get too down but we're all human when you were um 29 years old

01:21:58

um one such moment occurred in your life that really I think from your own words

01:22:02

tested you at a much deeper level you described yourself as being a zombie for a year after the passing of your mother

01:22:08

and she died at 58 years old um while you were playing and while you were playing at the very very highest

01:22:13

level that for me struck when I was reading through the way you described that moment in your life struck me as a real

01:22:20

sort of destabilizing moment in terms of focus and all of those things the question that I um

01:22:27

the question that I had is how as a player when you're playing at the highest level and you have something

01:22:31

like that happen how do you show up and maintain those standards and be Frank Lampard that's probably what I

01:22:38

meant when I said zombie because it became autopilot and I think um when you talk about mental health that's

01:22:46

the one time that I've been challenged to the extreme with it and you know a

01:22:51

lot of people go through this and that was the really interesting thing I found because I have some perspective now

01:22:55

these years later is that when it happens to you and it's unexpected it's very sudden for me

01:23:01

you you've never thought about that kind of thing happening before the only thing

01:23:05

I'll say is this I was I was a mummy's boy as I've said before so I used to

01:23:09

have these weird um moments I don't know if you have them I have them sometimes when I think about death

01:23:14

and I kind of go oh God when you die there's nothing and I have those moments

01:23:18

and it hits me in the stomach for about like four seconds I'm driving along I'm

01:23:21

like there's nothing there's absolutely nothing and then you go oh I don't know

01:23:25

where you've got to go to you know and life carries on and I used to have that

01:23:27

with my mum and then it was probably Reliance I had to know she was I was so like mummy's boy you know growing up so

01:23:32

I remember as I got a little bit older like to my teens and I was like imagine mum wasn't there for a moment it was a

01:23:37

panic for like 10 seconds I remember them and then because it was 29 as you say and it was very sudden it was in a

01:23:44

hotel um that we used to start pre-game we were playing Wigan on in the evening at

01:23:49

home I've got a call from my sister telling me that she'd fail ill and then so I

01:23:54

kind of went okay let's go into the hospital okay that's a bit dangerous so

01:23:56

I went to sleep I didn't sleep supposedly would sleep I was kind of lying there a bit like tossing and

01:24:01

couldn't get off I'm at the Mainstay I've got another call and as we get on

01:24:05

the bus to go to Stamford Bridge is like two a mile I get the call that no no she's getting

01:24:10

much worse so I'm like right I mean I'm in Frank I'm a sportsman go and do your

01:24:15

job mode and then I just kind of broke a bit on the coach kind of well I met I felt myself go grind someone said to me

01:24:21

until you went great but I felt myself going like oh anyway it's got to the stadium said to

01:24:27

the manager manager this is what's happening and he was like go so I was like in the tracksuit drive over to East

01:24:33

London mum's in hospital so when I get there mum's now in the on on the verge of going into intensive

01:24:38

care so she's got the stuff on and stuff and I walk in I'm in the tracksuit

01:24:42

and my mum had the oxygen mask on and she hadn't been speaking so she's taken

01:24:48

really ill in a day and she lifted a um a mask and said to me what are you doing

01:24:52

here tell me my Chelsea tracksuit and I didn't know what to say because I didn't

01:24:56

want to go you know I'm here because this is a really bad situation I mean I'm just here to see you Mum you know

01:25:00

and then sort of put the mask back on and then she was really and then they kind of wheeled her in she held my hand

01:25:05

which I'll never forget and then she went in and was put into intensive care

01:25:09

so that was one a one week process of my mum in intensive care so um she started to get better

01:25:18

um and then um a few of the family were kind of getting not excited about it but it was

01:25:23

last progress you know mum's out she'd been on every machine possible and I'm

01:25:27

still having to think about going into work I can't remember if I trained that

01:25:30

period I can't remember that week that's like a blur I just remember being at

01:25:33

home a lot you know and really you know in a bad way um and then we had Champions League

01:25:39

games coming up against Liverpool played one away I came back mum was getting a bit better and then we got the

01:25:46

phone call that she'd passed away she had a brain hemorrhage so just as she was getting better everyone was excited

01:25:51

she passed away there and then so it was like the the biggest Devastation I can't

01:25:56

explain and as I say years later I realized that this happens to so many other people and when you're a young man

01:26:01

who hadn't really lost anyone you don't have that real feeling of what that is

01:26:05

and I lost a person that was the closest person to me you know everything to me and I'll never forget the feeling of my

01:26:11

stomach if I talk about it I get it instantly again um and um I lost you know what was my best

01:26:19

friend the person that give me all that kind of emotional stuff I'd spoken about

01:26:22

the warmth and the the sudden feeling that someone's not going to be with you

01:26:27

like it doesn't compare to anything when you're that close um so you know in terms of work after

01:26:32

that probably some of it if I look back I probably go maybe I should have just come out of it like life is bigger than

01:26:37

that but it was like my probably a tiny coping mechanism for me we played a game

01:26:42

a game against Liverpool uh the second leg and I scored a penalty we won the game now we're getting sent to the

01:26:48

Champions League final and I remember sitting address from afterwards and I had this almighty

01:26:53

um like sense of of fatigue and you know body and mental fatigue uh I went home and sort of opened a beer

01:27:02

and I couldn't even drink it I went to bed and it was like it's like everything

01:27:05

came out of me then of like a week or two a full blast of of this pain you know it's just complete

01:27:11

pain and then you lose your best friend and the person that you know I've still

01:27:14

got a number in my phone and I've still got a couple of voice note things we

01:27:17

were never a big family for videos and stuff and I wish we were um the only thing I have is that my

01:27:22

mum's sister is Sandra Sandra redknapp Harry redknapp's wife and every time I speak to Sandra I hear

01:27:27

my mum they look very similar they sound very similar and it's like in the first

01:27:32

period it was painful now it's kind of nice you know because that's a memory

01:27:36

for me but the you know it's the the feeling the grief you know I I it catches up on me now and again many

01:27:42

years later I think I probably had a year um I was single I was like probably drinking a little bit I was playing

01:27:49

fantastic football at a really good year football is weird um and then I met Christine and thank

01:27:54

God Christine came along around that time because I was a little bit you know not not right in that period so

01:28:00

it was a it was a it was a really um obviously you know anybody who loses someone so close to them but she was so

01:28:08

big in my life and was such a balance in my life and then you know that sudden thing is just terrible did you process

01:28:15

that because it sounds like because you had football commitments back to back to back that there wasn't

01:28:20

really an opportunity to like sit and yeah I I don't know I mean I've been

01:28:25

through the experience and um that zombie thing I talk about is like I I couldn't comprehend it I felt empty

01:28:32

and weak but I had a job to do and the job Associated wasn't trying to be a hero I just didn't know where if I think

01:28:40

if I'd have laid around all day I would have really taken more of a hit it was

01:28:44

almost like getting up and going to work in that period and having something to aim for was just almost like that's what

01:28:50

I should do and then I definitely took the hit later on for that I definitely took a kind of deferred moments of grief

01:29:00

and I'd talk about them like I say there it could be anything that would be um a couple of glasses of wine and

01:29:07

something said at a dinner table a moment of someone else and I feel bad about this talking about their mother or

01:29:13

something you know and they're talking glowingly about their mother and and and

01:29:17

you kind of get hit you know um or another parent's birthday like crazy things I've got no right to be

01:29:24

upset about if you know what I mean but it just hits me and you kind of and I that sort of get on with it like hard no

01:29:29

get on with it son kind of feel feel which has stuck with me that was the one time I remember being absolutely broken

01:29:34

and tested on that because I had now and I got some anger as well I remember I used to I remember having road rage a

01:29:40

couple of times literally the few days after I pulled out of my drive and it was a Chelsea game so I wasn't

01:29:45

playing it because of what happened but I was at home and I was driving to go and see my sister or something someone

01:29:49

sort of drove across me and I got out of the car though and I went for them and it was a Chelsea fan he went Frank

01:29:54

calmed down I was like yeah sorry and I had these moments of anger and a period afterwards which would just come out of

01:29:59

me out and I went I wouldn't say that they've stuck with me from now but it

01:30:02

definitely changed me as a person I don't know how to explain it but it definitely made me have a different take

01:30:07

on things and be a bit more I don't know if ruthless is the word but more you know that thing about kind of

01:30:13

like cutting out some people that were in your life that you maybe would have got on with I just

01:30:18

kind of took a little bit more of a direct approach in my life after that amongst some serious moments of grief

01:30:25

within it you know I it's uh it was just it's a tough time the the only benefit it sounds really warped I

01:30:33

said this to someone the other day the only benefit is that now I you know I I don't have to go through that again that

01:30:38

sounds really strange it was such a tough period for me that the only thing now and I see you

01:30:43

know Christine's family are there and other people around me have friends and

01:30:46

family and I miss my mum so much like every day and as time goes by of course things balance out but I can't envisage

01:30:54

ever going through that pain again about what I did because my mum was the only person would be now now Christine is

01:30:57

obviously that person in my life and my children of course but in terms of what she meant to me at that time the only

01:31:02

thing is like I can go that is so painful I really couldn't go through that again now that's it's a weird way

01:31:08

of looking at it I hope that doesn't sound strange it's just a process and it

01:31:13

was too difficult and it's almost like it was almost like a dream it was my life was never supposed to be like that

01:31:19

in my head you know my mum was 58 and I felt like she was quite old and now I started doing the math and I'm 44. you

01:31:26

know like and you kind of go it wasn't old you know like I was 29 a month felt

01:31:29

a bit older at a point now he's like she should be mid 70s now and you know as I

01:31:34

say the sudden nature of it meant you couldn't speak to her as well which was

01:31:38

like as I've got older I've realized that my mum would have known exactly how

01:31:41

I felt about her but time it was like I want to say something more you know and I couldn't

01:31:48

you want to say something more just like thank you do you know what I mean like thanks to

01:31:54

um for being the balance for being the one um who've you know in those tough moments

01:31:59

when my dad was being harsh or something there for being the one that would when

01:32:03

I was crying in the bath after a game and coming and knocking on the door it's

01:32:06

like for making me food you know things a great mother does she just was that you know my mum was there to sort of it

01:32:12

might be sound old school now and but she was a hairdresser by trade who then became my house wife and a mother and

01:32:19

you know for everything that was gone on in my family life and lots of things have she was always the one that was

01:32:25

like the real stand-up when I look back now I I understand it even more that she

01:32:29

had the ethics and everything about her and then I would love to just be able to

01:32:33

say that you know it's like those you know an emotional song can get you going

01:32:36

it's like can I speak to her one more time to say here's a monologue for you

01:32:40

you know like just to to hear it but I with time I definitely have got more strength in the fact that she knew that

01:32:46

and that's that's it and when everyone I speak to says that you are that Class Act you are the

01:32:53

you're kind you're empathetic and all of that now I know where that's come that comes

01:33:00

from now I don't know listen I I knew you were going to ask me this because I've seen

01:33:05

you you know it wouldn't you know it's part of my story and I didn't want to cry I'm surprised I

01:33:11

haven't um but because I've cried probably enough at different times um but it's um

01:33:17

it's almost something like it is strangely therapeutic to speak about and this is very public and that's not

01:33:23

normally how I'm in very private allies Christian are very private it's how we

01:33:26

like to live and sometimes when those moments where I say the really grief-stricken moments over a glass of

01:33:31

wine kind of feel better after them because that's probably why I held in when I was

01:33:36

like hitting that penalty and and people giving me a huge plot I remember when you score that penalty when your mama

01:33:41

just died as if it was like a hero moment it wasn't it was me just kind of going I got to try and do this and and

01:33:45

do my job and then these moments now sometimes are quite therapeutic if I'm honest but it's uh you know especially

01:33:52

for other people that have gone through that and much worse you know a lot of worse things can happen in different

01:33:57

ways but until you feel that loss you know I remember I actually remember thinking when I lost mum it was like a

01:34:04

couple of my friends lost their parents when they were younger and I remember then thinking I've never

01:34:09

really broached that subject with them you know a couple of my friends are like 14 and lost I met at school at that age

01:34:15

who had already lost their parent or were in the process and I never really kind of went and they were like 14 I was

01:34:20

29 and I'd never even not thought about it but you know you kind of go sorry

01:34:24

mate and then you move on you can imagine what's you know all the things and I had to approach it 29 is slightly

01:34:29

different but those things so it you know life kicks you sometimes and that was the biggest kick I think I'll

01:34:34

I've I've had till this point you know and hopefully um for a long time do you talk about your emotions with

01:34:41

Christine yeah I do I do I think I'm quite good about that she will say to me

01:34:46

sometimes I'm quite closed yeah for that stuff and then that kind of kicks me

01:34:51

into talking about it because yeah my girlfriend's really good at that yeah annoyingly good yeah no they're

01:34:58

really good and I don't mind she sees me going into the Zone kind of thing sometimes and she's about what's

01:35:03

bothering you like oh well it's this you know it's probably something that's a

01:35:05

bit irrelevant or something but is that the first answer you'll give because

01:35:08

mine's usually nothing yeah no that's true but it's good I think because I definitely want to don't come

01:35:18

across as this you know like I said like this get on with it thing it's certainly

01:35:21

not me I look at myself as being you know the balance again of my mother was that one that she gave me that kind of

01:35:26

empathy I associate all the empathy with my mother that I had because that's how

01:35:31

she was was always with me so when I you know it's just I also have a mechanism

01:35:35

that kind of keeps it there but it's definitely inside and you know maybe children also help with that because

01:35:40

when you see your child and their smiles and their sort of innocent nature and how they are I think

01:35:46

that also helps you become a little bit more emotional because you start to care

01:35:49

about that more than pretty much anything else which is which has also been a beautiful thing over the last few

01:35:55

years I've realized that my first Foundation is my health something you've

01:35:58

heard me talk about a lot nothing matters more than that first foundation so that is why I'm so excited to be

01:36:03

involved with a company like whoop who are leading the charge when it comes to bettering your health all my friends

01:36:09

have received free Loops from me because once you've tried whoop I think it's

01:36:14

like lights turning on to your health that's the only way I can describe it my

01:36:17

sleep my performance my recovery my stress it's like someone turned the lights on I'm sure you guys know but for

01:36:23

those that don't know what whoop is it's a wearable health and fitness coach that

01:36:26

provides you with the feedback and actionable insights into your sleep recovery training stress and overall

01:36:31

health and I have become entirely utterly obsessed with it if you know me well enough you know how obsessed I am

01:36:36

with the smallest details I think the Small Things compounded together produce the biggest gains in our life and that

01:36:41

is exactly what woop does in my health and fitness every single day being able to see my one percent gains on woop has

01:36:46

had a profound impact on my health journey I highly recommend you try it all you have to do is search

01:36:51

join.woop.com CEO to get a free months whoop membership on me and if you do send me a DM and let me know how you get

01:36:59

on I'd love I'd love I'd love to know a quick word on huel as you know they're a

01:37:03

sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company one of the things I've never really explained is

01:37:07

how I came to have a relationship with huel one day in the office many years ago a guy walked past called Michael and

01:37:13

he was wearing a heeled t-shirt and I was really compelled by the logo I just thought from a design aesthetic point of

01:37:18

view it was really interesting and I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt and he said

01:37:23

it's this brand called heal and they make food that is nutritionally complete

01:37:27

and very very convenient and has the planet in mind and he the next day dropped off a little bottle of fuel on

01:37:34

my desk and from that day onwards I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a

01:37:40

nutritionally complete diet but sometimes because of the way my life is that falls by the wayside so if there

01:37:46

was a really convenient reliable trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable

01:37:51

away I was all ears especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet give

01:37:56

it a chance give it a shot let me know what you think what's the future like for you Frank

01:38:01

what do you think I don't know I'm very it's hard to know a lot of people could

01:38:06

say to me are you sure you know get into Panda tree it's easy put your feet up do

01:38:09

what you know that that's and it's certainly I I get my um enjoyment I get my my gets my blood

01:38:17

flowing is working and being a coach so that's what I want to do and I'm in

01:38:22

no immediate rush to do it the reality is off the back of Everton and Chelsea probably time for me to take my time

01:38:28

anyway because of what opportunity they might be out there there may be no opportunity

01:38:31

there may be something that comes up that I want to look at and say does that work for me on all purposes because I

01:38:38

get your point with the Chelsea ones like did you really need to take that and the the jobs I've taken have been

01:38:43

quite challenging and a lot of I'm not saying I'm going to be giving this like

01:38:46

here you go this is going to be great so I would Point try and choose well without sounding too picky because you

01:38:54

know I will want to work um and in the meantime do the things that make me happy which

01:39:00

is being around my family I like to travel it's like the one thing that I um really like to spend my money on

01:39:07

being out it's when when I travel I want to go better than home and if I don't go better than home I'll

01:39:12

stay at home and I've got a nice house so you know so I we we love that so I'll

01:39:17

you know use the time to travel a bit be with the family and my children spend more time my Elder daughters are doing a

01:39:22

levels in gcses now and be be around that and that's nice and sometimes you know I think that's good for me because

01:39:28

I am so driven it's like I feel like I should work I should work and actually

01:39:32

sometimes you can actually I'm 45 and I've done it right in my life maybe I

01:39:34

don't need need to work and that and that's not a bad place to be I'm

01:39:37

fortunate I don't I have gratitude for that so at the moment it's the Gratitude

01:39:41

of that enjoy it and then try and work again and what will be what would be your sort of decision making framework

01:39:47

when people call and they say what about this job or what about this what's the

01:39:51

how would you decide whether it's worth taking the well it's hard to say but from my

01:39:56

experience I would want to make sure I would want to have conversations to find out what the the job is and I can't I

01:40:03

can't sit here feel this way and talk to you about being a lion then they need to

01:40:07

feel the way that you know a bit of coaching they're going to do this and work together

01:40:10

and probably take another job where it doesn't feel aligned you know I I shouldn't um

01:40:16

do that so I'd want to have a conversation and be like what what can I do for you I have to tell myself clearly

01:40:21

that's the point but what can how will it work together and maybe get something

01:40:25

that feels a bit like and I don't mind I will work you know in in the UK anywhere

01:40:30

I would travel if an opportunity came up I would certainly prioritize a bit of family to make sure that it's something

01:40:36

that works for my family um ideally so I don't know I don't know about that one everyone seems to be

01:40:42

going there they do they do I mean I would prefer to stay in the UK for sure um and I don't mind I went and lived in

01:40:49

Everton for a year lives in Derby for a year I miss my family a lot but you have

01:40:52

to you know make those big decisions with fortunate in ways but we'll um I'll

01:40:56

see I'll see what comes up it's hard to call before it comes if we sit here in

01:40:59

10 years time in this chapters this next sort of 10 years this next decade has been a success what does that look like

01:41:03

what would have had to have happened for it to have been a success this next decade well 55 year old frank and Ming

01:41:09

55 well I'm here so that's good at 55 I think my you know obviously the family

01:41:15

to be well and healthy you understand that more when you hit for me it was him probably faulty health and and

01:41:21

understanding maybe you check yourself more on those things and lifestyle and then

01:41:26

um to be hopefully have managed and had success coaching you know that's that's

01:41:32

what I want to do I can't see what it looks like but I would love to be able

01:41:35

to to show myself consistently in a job and what I can do I haven't had that

01:41:40

opportunity yet for whether that was me or whatever as the circumstances have been but to do that so I'm very

01:41:46

determined to do I'm good like that I'm determined that I like to work like

01:41:49

anyone who knows me will know that like regardless of what my career's been if

01:41:53

you put it in front of me I'll tackle it head on and then you know I'm um I'm always trying to improve so

01:41:59

hopefully in 10 years I can show you that there's got to be a part of you that

01:42:03

wants to go back to Chelsea someday knowing if I know you are the way I know you there's got to be a part of you and

01:42:08

suddenly that's like you know one day I'll I'll go back it's funny you know

01:42:11

like you talk about should you have taken that job I reckon if you'd have asked me that before going back

01:42:16

I might have said no as in not like I don't want to go back to Chelsea but I

01:42:21

would have certainly seen myself no no like that's chapters done as a coach but now I've been back I would think

01:42:27

about it even more and it's strange and I think you know the the fact that the

01:42:33

ownership has changed at Chelsea and it's gone in a different direction I think it can be a really positive thing

01:42:37

for the club I think people might not see that now but I think it really can um but obviously I have a lot to do to

01:42:42

be part of that ever but like I I don't you have to make a clear decision when

01:42:46

we play 13 years of Chelsea I said I'll never play anywhere else I end up planet

01:42:50

Man City some people criticize me for that it's fine I didn't expect it but

01:42:54

man city was an amazing experience I went to New York City it was an amazing experience when you become a manager you

01:43:00

can't say I'm going to be Chelsea manager I'm going to be this you have to

01:43:02

take the journey because that's those are the rules for all of us you know you

01:43:06

can be you know a success for a moment of Everton everyone goes hold on you stand up and then you know next job what

01:43:13

is it and I would I you know I have respect for so many big clubs that you know there are certain clubs I wouldn't

01:43:19

manage I'm not going to declare them because that just sounds like cheap and

01:43:22

but I think it's important I I respect my time Chelsea Supply and what the club

01:43:27

means to me but I don't see it as the B100 but as I say having been back there

01:43:32

it did re-light a fire I left Chelsea in covert as a manager because I didn't

01:43:37

have any fans for my my last period so I kind of walked out like a little bit through the back door

01:43:43

um in a sense um and this time it felt different and that wasn't a great period but it is

01:43:48

still a huge club for me so maybe I'm really excited to watch what happens next thank you um you did a great job at

01:43:53

Derby obviously then you got um Chelsea into the the champions league if I think

01:43:56

finished fourth That season um under a transfer ban and then you kept Everton up on the last day of the

01:44:01

Season which again most people had kind of counted Everton out so obviously there was that interim period I look

01:44:06

it's funny because I'm gonna be honest so I when when we were meant to have

01:44:09

this podcast last time then you called me um and said listen I can't come Can't

01:44:13

Tell You Why um and I kind of put two and two together and figured it was the job I

01:44:17

looked at that and thought look I don't know Chelsea 11th or 12th at the moment

01:44:21

like what's what's the worst that can happen really what I didn't know is the

01:44:25

the back context so if I was in your shoes uh in hindsight and we don't have

01:44:30

hindsight in in the moment I would have probably I would have not taken the job if I was in that situation but in

01:44:36

foresight I definitely would have hmm 100 yeah all the reasons you said if Manchester United called me now I take

01:44:41

the job yeah and I have no experience yeah so but um but I think what we're gonna I'm really excited to see what we

01:44:47

see next from you and your sort of managerial career because I mean what you the experience you've

01:44:51

had warts and all is worth a ton yeah you know at all different levels all different phases transitional relegation

01:44:59

battles all of that is worth more than a lot of successes are worth and you've

01:45:02

had that in a short window of time so really really excited about your next chapter whenever it comes thank you um

01:45:09

is there anything at all you would say to Chelsea fans that are watching this now that are

01:45:13

um that would love to you know Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they

01:45:17

want to get a your opinion on what's just happened but they probably want to

01:45:20

get your opinion on like what you think the future looks like I guess and also I

01:45:24

think a lot of them do want to like check in on you because since you've left we've not really heard from you in

01:45:28

this context yeah and I've enjoyed that I've enjoyed not speaking it's been nice

01:45:32

um no I think for Chelsea fans I would say that um uh in terms of what do I think is next I

01:45:39

I listen to possession I spoke yesterday was his first press conference and he he

01:45:44

uh he spoke very well and he spoke about bringing a a Unity at the training ground and a family feel and then

01:45:51

winning which is Chelsea DNA so I think they've got a really good manager in charge and I think the

01:45:56

players will definitely develop with their you know as they as they develop naturally they're good players young

01:46:03

players there has to be some patience in putting that together because I think that's that has to be clear

01:46:08

and the owners have a big intention so I think as things settle it may not be straight away but I think that there's a

01:46:15

really positive future for the club and I was in it and it was tough but you know I know how quickly things can

01:46:19

change if you get the strategy right in terms of me I'm absolutely fine and I'd certainly appreciate the support I

01:46:26

had from as I say majority a lot of fans that would you know contact me or be at

01:46:29

Stanford Bridge and for anybody that was on the other side of that was like why is Frank back

01:46:33

in the job I I think they maybe I've explained some of my part in it today and some of the challenges I'll always

01:46:41

take responsibility I wouldn't walk back into that challenge without sort of

01:46:44

saying this might not go right and what's my responsibility so but Chelsea is always a huge club and as I say I

01:46:49

never went back to Chelsea until three days before I went and took the interim job manager and I went to the

01:46:55

Liverpool game and end up having a conversation and it was a difficult period for me for

01:46:59

some reason I left in covert as I say and I moved on to Everton and it reignited that kind of feeling

01:47:05

being back at Stamford Bridge I have to say not that I lost it it just reignited

01:47:08

it and you know so to Chelsea fans I know I'm fine I'm fine I appreciate

01:47:15

their support even my playing career it's nice when you finish playing because your playing career is there and

01:47:20

I can look back on it with a lot of pleasure for a lot of the good moments when you're in it it's like what's next

01:47:26

and you're sort of like always challenging yourself when you finish you kind of go yeah you know that was good

01:47:30

that was all right it was a lot of good stuff so there were good times and I was

01:47:34

very thankful to be part of a great club and we'll see you gave Mason Mount his start

01:47:41

yes I think he's a great signing for your yeah that's what I was going to say

01:47:44

thank you for that he's fantastic why is he living why is he leaving Chelsea he's

01:47:49

born and born and bred isn't he yeah I think it's a complicated one and in the

01:47:53

end I think is uh he's got a year left on his contract what I'll say about Mason is

01:47:59

all the things I spoke about there you talk about like modern players and how the game's changed he's a throwback to

01:48:05

the attitude and the commitment and the quality the you know that was the beauty

01:48:10

of working with Mason was that he gave you so much in terms of his um effort every day anything you'd ask

01:48:18

him to do was like yeah and he kind of got it and I think any great player has to have that kind of intelligence and

01:48:23

that desire about them you know like what do you need me to do a bit I've got

01:48:25

it and I'll do it I'll repeat it and also quality so in terms of what he'll

01:48:29

bring to Manchester United it won't just be what Mason brings it will bring loads

01:48:33

of talent that he's just gonna Gap and levels yeah I I think so and and don't

01:48:39

win me wrong the bar raise is already there with Bruno Fernandez but he will actually yeah casimiro but he will

01:48:45

absolutely fit in with it if you're trying to build which you're saying a

01:48:48

group mentality of a team and you know players are just going to give everything and their talent which type

01:48:54

team he fits it so I've seen some like sort of alternative reactions to that

01:48:57

it's like oh yeah Mason amounts of goodbye why would you pay that for him nice amount is going to be a fantastic

01:49:02

player there my opinion it's really nice to know because actually I was a bit on the fence in

01:49:07

regards of don't really know the character of the man but I have heard from inside Old Trafford that Eric

01:49:12

tanhard Eric tenhargis really Ultra focused on exactly what you've said above everything else he's focused on

01:49:18

that like core values so casimiro um Bruno etc etc and so it's nice to know that

01:49:24

Mason is uh yeah he is a bar razor yep why is he leaving do you know um seeking a different challenge or is

01:49:32

it no I don't think so I think probably Mason would have envisaged two years ago

01:49:36

they'd stay at Chelsea for a lot of his career I just think circumstances his

01:49:39

contract situation um I know he's got a big love for Chelsea um but also in the modern day you know I

01:49:45

think more than more than even in my day players do move and I don't think you

01:49:49

know if the challenge of moving now it's come to that for Mason personally is a is a good challenge for him I would

01:49:55

like to finish that Chelsea because I think he's he would have been Central to

01:49:58

it but it didn't happen we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a

01:50:03

question for the next guest and I have to say this is the longest question I've

01:50:05

ever been left for anyone else it's quite abstract right as well so we're

01:50:09

both gonna have to kind of figure this one out but the question is you're gonna be surprised by this when

01:50:14

broken down to its roots or origin the word enthusiasm begins with n Theos which

01:50:22

means with God for people who have not identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing can you

01:50:29

suggest a way to cultivate that enthusiasm um so I think the real question here is

01:50:39

just in this line here which is when people for people who haven't identified

01:50:42

something which they are truly passionate about yeah pursuing how do they go about that wow

01:50:47

um thanks to that one yeah I don't know um this is a good point actually because

01:50:54

my daughters now my oldest daughter is going leave getting her a level results this summer

01:51:00

it's talking about uni but she doesn't really know what she wants to do and I

01:51:02

actually felt uh not bad I went to school obviously but my Pathways you know looking back was like fortunately

01:51:10

was that I didn't have to think about myself and I so I haven't got any big answers

01:51:13

for and also like from a modern woman you know where is the pathway what does she want to I ask that question and

01:51:19

she's not sure which is completely understandable so for me I think for her if if we're flipping it there's maybe

01:51:25

whether it's a passion or not but my thing and it probably goes back to my roots is to

01:51:30

the work ethic thing is what I say to it is to get out there and get in the workplace and meet people because I

01:51:37

think in the modern world with my daughters are so engrossed in social media they have a lot of answers about life

01:51:45

you know a lot of answers and I'm like okay I don't agree with that one but

01:51:49

I'll let that one go I don't agree with that and then I'll start to feel like a

01:51:51

dinosaur but I do think that they kind of get caught up in that and all the answers are there and like okay we're

01:51:55

gonna do then and they go I don't know and you kind of go okay well fine you've

01:51:58

got all this information it's the modern world but what are you going to do go

01:52:01

out and get a weekend job if you're going to go to UNI go out and experience

01:52:05

what the real world is like rather than this alternative world that you're slightly looking at and then I think

01:52:10

someone might ignite it so that that was my and again that's probably as deep as

01:52:14

I could go because I don't care where it is you could be in the coffee shops you

01:52:17

could be in this shop or that shop or whatever but um this is my adult story obviously so

01:52:23

it was more about getting out and meeting people and I guess probably in in to bring that question back to me

01:52:29

myself going out of my comfort zone and leaving Chelsea to go to Manchester City

01:52:34

and then live in New York for two years ignited a million things in May and none

01:52:39

of them were like big Hobbies or something like that it was just like wow there's a different world a different

01:52:43

culture people who approach things with positivity and energy that I've never

01:52:47

seen in England and it changed my Approach so maybe my answer would be come out of

01:52:52

your comfort zone and do something which is different I was fortunate today I worked there but I was living in

01:52:57

probably what for me is possibly the best city in the world and it changed me as a person so maybe

01:53:02

you know to to get the passion try something take yourself out the comfort zone and it might just appear for you

01:53:08

makes perfect sense and I think yeah exactly what I heard there is that often we when we're two within familiarity

01:53:14

we're not going to get the inspiration of what might be our passion if we're

01:53:17

searching for it but going to a New York or um just getting out into the world and

01:53:21

having experiences can lead us there yeah Frank thank you so much for your time today and thank you for doing this

01:53:26

because I I want to say like you um you are a man of your word now because we're

01:53:30

going to do this last time and you could have easily not done it but you messaged

01:53:33

me and said I want to get that back on because I said I would um and again that's just another example

01:53:37

of you just being a Class Act the whole process of you counting last time because you've got the Chelsea job and

01:53:41

then coming back you've just been an absolute Class Act um you're a man where no one can

01:53:45

question your your integrity and your principles and then on top of that I I see a man who is um incredibly Keen to

01:53:52

work and do well in whatever he applies himself to and because of that you've

01:53:56

LED this fantastic career both as a professional football player and as a manager we're which is I think you're

01:54:01

just halfway through and there's this whole new season as you get up to you know 45 years time you're going to be

01:54:07

90. and I'm so excited to watch that story unfold because of all the wisdom you've garnered in the last 45 so thank

01:54:13

you for being an inspiration to me for giving me so many great memories in football as an England player less so as

01:54:19

a Chelsea player because you guys were really good through that that that's that period so

01:54:25

um but it's a real honor to get to know you and um yeah thank you for all your

01:54:28

wisdom thank you very much thank you if you've been listening to this podcast

01:54:33

over the last few months you'll know that we're sponsored and supported by

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Airbnb but it amazes me how many people don't realize they could actually be

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Episode Highlights

A Conversation with Frank
An honest conversation to uncover unanswered questions about Frank's journey.
“I wanted to have a conversation with Frank, an honest open conversation.”
@ 01m 44s
July 13, 2023
Fear of Failure as Motivation
Lampard discusses how his fear of failure drove him throughout his career.
“The fear of failure was a huge driving force.”
@ 14m 31s
July 13, 2023
Transitioning to Management
Frank Lampard reflects on the challenges and learning curves of stepping into management. 'It was just a huge learning curve.'
“It was just a huge learning curve.”
@ 24m 32s
July 13, 2023
The Challenge of Management
There’s no single blueprint for success as a manager; it’s about adapting to your team.
“There's not a successful blueprint to being a manager.”
@ 33m 49s
July 13, 2023
Winning is Everything
In the world of football, winning is paramount, especially in the age of social media.
“Winning is everything.”
@ 43m 10s
July 13, 2023
Understanding Standards and Success
Low standards in a club can indicate deeper issues within the organization.
“Low standards are a symptom of something further upstream.”
@ 51m 14s
July 13, 2023
Recruitment Philosophy at Chelsea
Understanding Chelsea's recruitment strategy and how it differs from other clubs.
“You have to understand what you want to be.”
@ 01h 02m 51s
July 13, 2023
Reflecting on Interim Management
Frank Lampard discusses the challenges faced during his interim period at Chelsea.
“It wasn’t my most favorite experience in my footballing career.”
@ 01h 09m 46s
July 13, 2023
The Pain of Loss
Frank Lampard shares the profound impact of losing his mother at a young age.
“I was a mummy's boy, so losing her was devastating.”
@ 01h 22m 08s
July 13, 2023
Reflections on Grief
Years later, Lampard reflects on the pain of losing his mother and its effects.
“I can’t envisage ever going through that pain again.”
@ 01h 30m 54s
July 13, 2023
Health and Fitness Revolution
Discovering Whoop transformed my health journey, making me obsessed with small gains.
“It's like someone turned the lights on to your health.”
@ 01h 36m 16s
July 13, 2023
Cultivating Enthusiasm
A deep discussion on how to find passion and enthusiasm in life.
“How do they go about that?”
@ 01h 50m 47s
July 13, 2023

Episode Quotes

Hindsight is like the best thing.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
You have to be yourself because you’ll get found out.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
When the culture is strong, the new people become the culture.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
I enjoyed the first few weeks.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
I felt empty and weak but I had a job to do.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
I think there's a really positive future for the club.
Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264

Key Moments

Emotional Support09:59
Fear of Failure14:31
First Day at Derby22:28
Blueprint for Success33:49
Owner's Role45:48
Health Transformation1:36:16
Team Values1:48:48
Mason's Future1:49:27

Tension Over Time

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown