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Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97

September 13, 2021 / 01:08:34

This episode features Nick Jenkins, former CEO and founder of Moonpig, discussing entrepreneurship, success, and personal growth. Key topics include the challenges of starting a business, the importance of decisiveness, and the role of failure in the entrepreneurial journey.

Nick Jenkins shares his experience of founding Moonpig, a personalized greeting card company, and the ups and downs he faced over the years. He emphasizes that success is not solely measured by wealth but by being a successful human being.

Jenkins also addresses the common belief that entrepreneurs are born, not made, arguing that traits like decisiveness can be developed. He reflects on his early career, the importance of risk-taking, and how he learned to navigate the challenges of running a business.

Throughout the conversation, Jenkins discusses the significance of understanding customer needs and the value of simplicity in business models. He highlights the importance of resilience and adapting to change in order to succeed.

Finally, Jenkins shares his thoughts on personal fulfillment after selling Moonpig and the shift towards philanthropy and social impact in his life.

TL;DR

Nick Jenkins discusses entrepreneurship, success, and personal growth from his experience founding Moonpig.

Episode

1:08:34

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so you do something with greeting cards

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is that something you do from your spare

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room nick jenkins former ceo and founder

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of moon pig a company now worth 1.6

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billion dollars my first proper business

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was moon big which although it's been a

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success of course it went through

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various ups and downs like all overnight

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successes it took 11 years i got to

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confess i probably slightly stumbled on

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it i look at it now and think wow that

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accidentally was a really good business

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model

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unfortunately we too often we measure

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the things that are easiest to measure

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and the easiest thing to measure is how

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wealthy someone is i'm reluctant to

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create this illusion that that you know

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if you work incredibly hard you can make

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a lot of money and that will make you

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successful you have to be a successful

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human being the most exciting times i

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ever had in my business were when my

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back was absolutely against the one

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thing this is going down bizarrely i

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found that quite invigorating but at one

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point my shells all said look nick this

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is never gonna work it's never gonna

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make money by the time i got to the end

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of it i was pretty much down to zero

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[Music]

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nick jenkins former ceo and founder of

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moonpig a company now worth 1.6 billion

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dollars nick's achievements are

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miraculous he's incredibly inspiring and

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he created a business that's touched

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many of our lives but the thing that i

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found even more intriguing about nick

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was he bucks most of the typical

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entrepreneurship and success narratives

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i think we're all sold the belief and

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the story that in order to be successful

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in business or any discipline in life

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you have to undergo tremendous sacrifice

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you have to work yourself into the

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ground nick and his story and his

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philosophy disprove all of that

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he's got another way of doing it if

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listening to this episode does anything

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outside of just inspiring the hell out

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of you and giving you very practical

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business information it will definitely

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prove

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in my view that there is no such thing

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as a born entrepreneur and also once you

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become an entrepreneur the path to

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success isn't the same for everybody

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a lot of what you've been told is a lie

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without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

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and this is the dire of a ceo i hope

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nobody's listening but if you are then

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please keep this to yourself

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[Music]

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nick

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super intrigued when i meet

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entrepreneurs um because there's

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a huge sort of narrative and i guess a

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debate that's happened in the

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entrepreneurial community about whether

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entrepreneurs are

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made whether they're born whether it's

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something that can be taught and

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um from listening to you describe your

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early years and your school years and

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your upbringing um

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i wondered what your opinion on that was

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and also whether you think you were born

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on japan

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i think there are some traits that are

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common to all entrepreneurs well one of

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those is decisiveness you've got to be

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able to take decisions and when i after

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i worked in russia for a bit went and

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did an mba and when i was there there

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were lots of people on that course who

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were brighter than me um but and they

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would come up with a beautiful

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powerpoint presentation of five

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different choices of strategic options

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but actually sometimes he's just got to

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say i haven't got the perfect knowledge

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let's go with that one and take a

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decision and so i think decisiveness is

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a very and really an attitude to risk is

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is the other thing i think i always took

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the view that you know i started with

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nothing i could end up with nothing

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and i it i wasn't that worried about

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about failing um

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and that's quite important and so so i

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think those sort of things are are

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innate you can teach someone like that

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to be a better entrepreneur and to some

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extent i mean i i went off and said the

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business i had nothing else to do to be

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honest at the time i came back from

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russia and i had a spare year and i

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thought i couldn't think of a good

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cunning business plan so i'll do an mba

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while i'm coming up with a cunning plan

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and that that was that probably

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made my first business a bit better

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because i i gave me more of an idea of

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the rounded idea of business and

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um and and so on so so i think you can

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improve on that but i don't think but if

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you're if you're risk-averse you're not

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going to do it where does where does

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decisiveness and um that risk appetite

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come from do you think in people and

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what i guess where does the alternative

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come from where does the fear

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um and the lack of willingness to

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to make a decision come from in people

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or in you like where did it where did

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that decision come from in you i don't

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know you have some people who are

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physically courageous they will leap in

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you know rugby players will leap in and

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do things and and other people who who

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are not and then you have some people

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who are

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intellectually courageous who will just

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um

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they're just not afraid of saying

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let's do it um um no i'm not i'm i'm not

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sure but i think i think it comes from

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not having a fear of a fear of failure

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or not you know we're all going to make

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mistakes and things will go wrong but

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but uh if you're frightened of ever

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making a mistake

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um then then then you won't do it much

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times like if you if you ski and you're

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frightened of falling over you're never

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going to be a great skier so you aren't

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going to fall over you it's quite also

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you were just talking about almost that

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mental assessment you made on what

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failure meant because you were like well

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if i go to zero that's okay yeah that

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doesn't mean death no no no no it

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doesn't i mean it wouldn't be great you

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know but but but it's survival and i and

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i've of all the friends i've seen who've

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gone through that and i've had a lot of

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friends who've gone through uh who've

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gone through business failures the ones

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i admire the most are the ones who it's

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the way they've dealt with that and some

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of them have thought well i can't change

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that i can't so all i can do is change

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the way i approach the next step and

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move on and if you just dwell on

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failure what does that mean how does

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that reflect on me um then

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uh then you'd never

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yeah you you'd never move on so

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i think it's our own in our own attitude

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to failure that's that's quite important

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what was your underlying drive to even

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start a business versus just going and

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getting a job at i don't know pizza hut

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or something

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i suppose i probably looked at that and

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thought if that goes well i'll probably

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make more money per hour than if i go

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and work with pizza so there's an

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element of one want to i mean maybe

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there's an element of laziness that

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comes into this it's wanting to take

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that shortcut and think well well

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actually if i if i start my own business

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and and that goes

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and it goes well then

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obviously

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it's it's better than an hourly paid job

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one of my great philosophies on business

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is just keep everything as simple as you

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can possibly make it until you have to

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make it more complicated

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um people often start they start you

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know way too complicated and and and uh

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over-engineer things that you if you

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read that book the lean startup it kind

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of talks talks to some of those values

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about just trying to is find find the

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simplest way to test the hypothesis as

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cheaply as you can without using losing

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years of your life and there's nothing

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there's nothing quite like not actually

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having any money to do that so when the

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moon pig when when we we raised money on

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a very bitty basis you know there was

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never like a well that occasionally

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would pour something in it and you know

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you you you hear it hitting the bottom

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but it never actually filled the well up

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so we never really have much money to

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experiment with so we had to be uh

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very lean with what we did and i think

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perhaps the one the one useful thing the

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only textbook that i ever went back to

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from my mba years was a statistics uh

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textbook because what i wanted to work

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out is the least money i could spend to

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get a statistically significant answer

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to how much a cost to customer

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acquisition is for a particular channel

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because why spend two and a half why

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spend 25 000 pounds finding out that a

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particular channel doesn't work for you

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when you can get the answer for two and

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a half thousand um and uh you must see

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this all the time but i i you get people

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who say we're going to spend a million

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pounds on our when you've got too much

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money you just let's throw some money at

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this and see what works well why waste

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it when you can get the answer for two

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and a half grand yeah and then and then

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and then and i always look at that and i

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don't think i don't think i've wasted

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two and a half grand i've spent two and

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a half grand some of that will have been

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let's say i was aiming for a 10-pound

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cost of customer acquisition and and

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actually it was 20. well then 1 250

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pounds of that was spent on acquiring

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customers at the right price and 1 250

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pounds was spent on finding out that i

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should never do that again

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and that's that's the way i would look

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at that but if i spent 25 000 pounds on

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it yeah then you know it would have been

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it would have been a waste and also if

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you can the more

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you spend money to find out the answers

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to things and when you've got those

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answers and you're then putting that in

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your business plan to raise money i'm

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always more impressed when people say

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right i want to raise money for

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marketing this is what we've done so far

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this is what it cost us so far so if we

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scale this up that's that's what we can

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do as opposed to just saying

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please give us lots of money to spend on

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marketing we don't know what we're going

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to do yet um yeah i had this

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conversation actually with my gym owner

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the other day i didn't even know that he

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was um aware of who i was but i was

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leaving the gym he goes can i just have

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two minutes pulls me into the back room

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and um he tells me about this idea and

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to be fair i can't say the idea because

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he and we're going to talk about this

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topic as well he thinks that if you tell

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the idea then i'm going to run off with

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it we'll talk about that

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all the time yeah we'll talk about that

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straight after but um but but so it's

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idea for rolling out gyms in the country

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he said i need to i need to raise

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investment to put 10 of them in and i

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was like

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your this idea you have is totally

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contingent on this central hypothesis

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i'm just going to say he doesn't podcast

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that um

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people that drive long haul want to work

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out in service stations yeah you don't

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need to put 10 in to figure out if that

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hypothesis is correct you can put a

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shipping container in the car park

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keep it there for free and if anyone

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picks up the dumbbells that's that's an

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indication that your hypothesis is

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correct and then introduce another

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variable which is cost yeah so then

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charge them to pick up the dumbbells and

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if you if you come back to me

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in six months time and say steve they

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picked up the dumbbells they worked out

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and they gave me 10 pounds a month then

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all you need is capital yeah and we'll

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go make ten of them yeah yeah we're on

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the same page

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you know i'll prove what you can prove

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on the least amount of money first and

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evidence is evidence is always so

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important um

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and people miss that but let's talk

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about that topic then so this idea of it

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really really it shows me that the

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entrepreneur is somewhat naive when an

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entrepreneur comes up i'm sure you get

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this all the time they picture an idea

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and then they say

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well they sound cagey to tell you the

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full thing because they think you're

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going to run off and do it yeah yeah

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yeah

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when i would say to them look if you get

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the the day you go live with that the

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moment you start advertising that idea

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you're you're opening you're lifting

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your skirts to the whole world so uh so

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you're gonna have to go live with us at

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some point otherwise you're not going to

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sell anything and if you don't sell

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anything you're going to raise any money

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from anybody so at some point you have

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to

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uh you you have to tell people what

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you're doing with moon pig there was no

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way that i could i could protect that

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idea the only way you can protect it is

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be the best and and and be the biggest

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amen yeah

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i mean and then i we had probably 20

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competitors that followed after moon pig

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you know during our time then they would

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they'd pop up and they'd flare up and

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then they'd die off again um and and

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even now moon pig is 65 to the market

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when you started moon pig was there

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anyone else doing personalized um sort

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of gifting cards online yeah funny

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enough that there was there was a very i

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came up with a business plan and i

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developed it and then i looked the first

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thing i always do is i look around not

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just at what direct competitors i've got

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but how people are trying to solve that

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problem in other ways because you know

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if you're trying to solve a problem

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clearly that problem exists already and

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people are trying to solve it in one way

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or another and and i did come across a

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company that was doing um

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personalized greeting cards

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and and i approached them and said oh

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i've got a choice i can either i've come

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up with this plan i can either do it

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myself or i can invest in your business

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and um and

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and anyway he the terms he offered were

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ridiculous and also the other problem

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was i could see that is we would we were

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going to fall out over the content of

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the cards because um

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i just didn't think he had a very good

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eye for cards um without that business

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anything ever turned over more than 300

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000 a year

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and then it died about two years later

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um and uh and moon pig went so i i went

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off and did my own thing and what it

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taught me actually looking back at it is

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that is that it was all about the

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content it was about the quality of the

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of the cars the quality of the design of

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the cars because actually the customer

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doesn't really care how the car was

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produced they didn't care about the

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technology at all what they want is the

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end product and and we have the best end

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product that's so interesting because um

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a lot of entrepreneurs are put off from

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starting an idea because when they

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google their idea that they have they

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find 10 of the people that are already

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doing it and i i really want to touch on

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this point because i think it's quite

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liberating for entrepreneurs listening

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when i started my business in fact every

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business i've ever started that's been

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successful had a major

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incumbent already and we might we became

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the biggest and it's exactly what you

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described it's those there's probably a

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thousand small details that go into

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making a successful bit listen more

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let's just say there's a thousand yeah

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thousands more details like into making

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your business and it's and um you're

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basically going to war on a thousand

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details yeah and if you can um

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you know if you can be better in just

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certain ways and sometimes you only need

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to be better in a few simple ways

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i think it can i i agree and but then

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then

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if you look at the example of bread um

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people have been eating bread for

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thousands of years you know people like

00:12:50

bread we know what people prefer to pay

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for bread that's half of your market

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research done already you don't have to

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say we've got something called bread do

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you do you like it you can you can get

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some slices you just ham in the middle

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and call it a sandwich

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all that's been done for you so then

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you've then got to work out right well i

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know i know that there's a market for

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this so how do i just make it a little

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bit a little bit better do i make it as

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a you know add seeds to it do i put

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cumin in it do i or do i have a shop

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that is in a location where that isn't

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well served so you only have to tweak an

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idea that's already there so your chance

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of success your chance of succeeding

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your chance of surviving is considerably

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greater because you've answered most of

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the questions already before you've even

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invested any money um the chance of that

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becoming the chance of multiplying by a

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factor of a thousand and suddenly

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thinking that's like the guy in shortage

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has just invented stuff called bread

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it's amazing never had it before um so

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you don't get that and i think that's an

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important thing for entrepreneurs to

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think about is that you don't have to be

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unique i think that's you know people

00:13:42

always are what's what's unique about

00:13:44

you just got to be i agree with you

00:13:45

you've got to be better in some respect

00:13:48

and um and people tie themselves in

00:13:50

knots trying to think of trying to

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invent things so i think it's a really

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hard it's the hardest possible way of

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making money i mean actually when you i

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i read a report about the fact that the

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the people who've most people who've

00:14:01

made money have made money doing

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something they were previously employed

00:14:04

to do

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because because they've spent 20 years

00:14:06

learning how to do something they know

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all the contacts and then they start up

00:14:10

their own business it's logical not you

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know when i'm looking at investing in

00:14:12

people i think well you know this

00:14:14

industry really really well you're very

00:14:15

convincing um and and you you know all

00:14:18

the pitfalls in advance perhaps of

00:14:20

course you're more likely to succeed

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yeah but they also know they also

00:14:24

because they know the pitfalls they know

00:14:26

that where the opportunity to create a

00:14:27

better product would be as well yeah

00:14:29

yeah you know because so often i will i

00:14:31

will come up with a business idea and

00:14:32

look at it and it's only after i've gone

00:14:34

through this sort of fourth iteration of

00:14:35

the business brand that i think

00:14:37

and that is why no one has done this

00:14:39

before

00:14:42

that's very very true um

00:14:44

if you'd known how hard it would be

00:14:46

um to start a business and to

00:14:49

um make it successful do you think you

00:14:50

would have started because i'm here i'm

00:14:52

asking i want to know a little bit about

00:14:54

the like the importance of delusion

00:14:57

well funny if that's something i've

00:14:58

always believed that an element of

00:14:59

self-delusion is very very important and

00:15:01

i think that's one of the reasons why

00:15:04

actually

00:15:05

when i i when i finished my b i did have

00:15:07

the opportunity to go and join a vc firm

00:15:10

i thought i could if i can work for vc

00:15:11

firm for three or four years i'll get

00:15:12

more experience before i start my own

00:15:14

business anyway i went for a job

00:15:15

interview shock horror they turned me

00:15:17

down so i had to go and start my own

00:15:18

business and and i realized now that if

00:15:20

i had gone through several years of

00:15:22

investing in other people's businesses i

00:15:24

probably would have developed that kind

00:15:25

of

00:15:27

uh that hard skin of of this is actually

00:15:30

incredibly hard but this is why this

00:15:31

won't work and i see that

00:15:33

i see that a lot now in me now that i

00:15:35

look at as an investor i look at a lot

00:15:37

of things and i'm

00:15:38

i'm less wide-eyed than i was when i

00:15:40

started moon pig and i can see the

00:15:41

reasons why something won't work and you

00:15:43

become you can become too cynical about

00:15:45

it

00:15:46

whereas when i started moon pig if i'd

00:15:48

known all the problems that i was going

00:15:50

to come up against i may not have

00:15:51

started it and believe me there were

00:15:52

plenty of times in the middle of that uh

00:15:55

when i would have happily given it up i

00:15:57

mean people often say whether was there

00:15:58

a difficult period and they said there

00:16:00

was just one but it lasted from 2000 to

00:16:02

2005. um and and it was

00:16:04

[Music]

00:16:06

that was difficult it was it was tough

00:16:08

and i was wondering how to pay the

00:16:09

salaries and i'd talk to me about the

00:16:11

detail of that difficult period well

00:16:13

as as as you know better than anybody

00:16:15

that starting a business is one thing

00:16:17

and coming up with a product that people

00:16:19

might want is one thing getting

00:16:20

customers is probably the single most

00:16:22

difficult thing about setting up any

00:16:24

online business um and i think most

00:16:27

people underestimate that and we we

00:16:28

tried all sorts of permutations and bear

00:16:30

in mind this was 2000 so this was well

00:16:32

before social media so a lot of stuff

00:16:34

was very manual um i you know you will

00:16:37

laugh at this but when i was when i was

00:16:39

doing affiliate deals i would phone up a

00:16:41

company and say we'll put an advert on

00:16:43

your thing and if you send any traffic

00:16:44

to us we'll give you a bit of commission

00:16:46

on this and i'll send you a spreadsheet

00:16:47

every week to tell you how much i owe

00:16:49

you literally it was that manual and i

00:16:50

would write up a contract for each

00:16:52

separate contract for each individual

00:16:54

company had a big filing cabinet of them

00:16:56

i mean this you know that sounds like

00:16:57

very dinosaurish but that's how it was

00:16:59

and now it's it's much much easier um

00:17:02

but we were

00:17:03

we were struggling to find ways ways

00:17:05

that we could throw money at driving

00:17:07

traffic because everything that we threw

00:17:09

money at was too expensive and the only

00:17:10

thing that was really working in all of

00:17:12

this was the viral effect that we knew

00:17:14

that

00:17:15

we were we got very very good at

00:17:17

measuring everything and and we could

00:17:19

see that if we brought 100 customers in

00:17:21

that and those 100 customers we knew

00:17:23

exactly how many them would buy cards we

00:17:25

knew how many of them wouldn't come back

00:17:26

again but of the ones that bought cards

00:17:28

we knew that they would attract about

00:17:30

for every customer

00:17:32

that we had they'd attract a third of a

00:17:33

customer just because i send you a

00:17:35

birthday card you think it's funny you

00:17:36

look on the back of it moonpig.com and

00:17:38

so that viral effect was the thing that

00:17:40

kept us going for five years and it was

00:17:42

only really because i understood the

00:17:44

statistics behind that and i could

00:17:45

understand the model and think right

00:17:47

although everything else appears to be

00:17:48

failing although this online campaign

00:17:50

doesn't appear to be too expensive that

00:17:52

appears to be too expensive and we we

00:17:53

can't i couldn't tell you if someone

00:17:55

gave me 10 million pounds i couldn't

00:17:56

have told you what we could have thrown

00:17:57

it at um to make it work i could see

00:18:00

that just the customers alone were

00:18:02

driving the sales growth and if only we

00:18:03

could survive that long that we would we

00:18:05

would make it through um but i was the

00:18:08

only person who believed that all of my

00:18:09

shareholders at one point my shells all

00:18:11

said look nick you know it's not going

00:18:13

to work this is never going to work it's

00:18:15

never going to make money and you you

00:18:16

know we're not going to put more money

00:18:18

in and we really recommend that you

00:18:19

don't put any more money in too because

00:18:21

when this all goes wrong you're going to

00:18:22

have to have some money to pay the rent

00:18:24

and and it was it was that bad um how

00:18:28

much did you had you bet on this

00:18:29

personally well i mean i put in i was i

00:18:32

i'd gone off and worked in russia for a

00:18:33

while and i probably made about a

00:18:35

million and and by the time

00:18:38

uh by the time i i put about 150 000

00:18:41

pounds into mubic at the beginning to

00:18:42

get the idea off the ground

00:18:44

by the time i got to the end of it um i

00:18:48

i was pretty much down to zero i think

00:18:50

i'd taken all the equity out of the flat

00:18:51

which previously had no mortgage i'd

00:18:53

taken all my savings and all that so i

00:18:55

pretty much got down to zero

00:18:57

so at the point where people are trying

00:18:58

to discourage you to

00:19:00

i was pretty much already at zero zero

00:19:03

anyway so so and that that's when it's

00:19:05

that's when finally it started to turn

00:19:07

and um you know but i could i could see

00:19:10

i could see the stats i could see where

00:19:12

it was going

00:19:13

um it's just that you know after four

00:19:14

years of

00:19:16

i've had three or four different

00:19:17

business plans you know i know the last

00:19:18

business plan wasn't you know inaccurate

00:19:21

but this one this one's better oh and i

00:19:22

know the previous two weren't that

00:19:24

accurate but this one this one this one

00:19:25

works yeah

00:19:26

it's tough that's that delusion did you

00:19:28

ever genuinely consider quitting

00:19:32

no no i didn't know because that big

00:19:34

because i because i could see where the

00:19:35

numbers were going and i had i did have

00:19:37

a firm belief that uh the repeat rate

00:19:39

was there um the viral effect was there

00:19:41

and i could see how i could see how we

00:19:43

weren't spending we went through a year

00:19:44

we spent no money on marketing

00:19:46

whatsoever no money on customer

00:19:47

acquisition and we and our sales grew by

00:19:49

30 percent

00:19:50

you know so that's now i appreciate

00:19:52

having invested in lots of other

00:19:54

e-commerce businesses i appreciate how

00:19:56

unusual that is um it was my first

00:19:59

business so i didn't know quite how

00:20:00

unusual it was but but i knew that

00:20:01

actually look it's not as if there's so

00:20:03

many businesses i see now that the

00:20:04

moment you turn the marketing tap off

00:20:06

yeah just goes to zero yeah and all you

00:20:08

and

00:20:09

and that's one of the things i'm always

00:20:10

really aware of when i'm aware of now

00:20:11

when i'm investing is when is it i said

00:20:13

well what what's going to happen when

00:20:15

you turn that money to turn that tap off

00:20:17

because because when we did turn that

00:20:19

tap off it just kept on growing and

00:20:21

that's what i see is the real quality of

00:20:22

a business is when you're adding layer

00:20:24

upon layer of customers now you know not

00:20:26

all businesses are as good at repeat

00:20:28

business as moon pig was but but that

00:20:30

was that that was the the thing that i

00:20:31

recognized that kept me going through

00:20:33

all that and stopped me from throwing

00:20:35

the towel in and that's thankfully

00:20:37

because you had a great product

00:20:38

underpinning

00:20:40

yeah

00:20:41

the the main focus was was do people do

00:20:43

people like what we're selling um and we

00:20:45

knew that we knew it's a very very

00:20:46

popular product we could see that in the

00:20:47

viral effect with people not only do

00:20:49

people who bought it liked it but the

00:20:50

people who received it liked it so

00:20:53

the main focus was always on

00:20:55

create a really really good product and

00:20:57

then of course on top of that you then

00:20:59

got to make sure that you've got your

00:21:00

production right so that your gross

00:21:02

margins are right and and you're

00:21:04

tweaking all of those little knobs

00:21:06

within within within that uh engine um

00:21:10

and um

00:21:11

and the the key thing also just is

00:21:13

understanding um is understanding every

00:21:16

every metric and we looked at like it's

00:21:18

like a lose run that you're polishing um

00:21:21

every day you're looking at is there is

00:21:22

there anywhere where anyone's getting

00:21:24

stuck along this journey and and are

00:21:26

they not understanding what we're you

00:21:27

know the button that they're supposed to

00:21:28

press next are they getting confused in

00:21:29

which polish that one out so there was a

00:21:31

constant process that that time when we

00:21:33

weren't spending any money on customer

00:21:35

acquisition we were spending all of our

00:21:36

money on uh on customer retention and

00:21:39

just polishing that lose run

00:21:42

of the customer coming in through the

00:21:43

front door and going into the shopping

00:21:44

basket when you reflect on that and the

00:21:47

the fact that moonpig ultimately

00:21:49

succeeded in a market where many others

00:21:50

failed you talked about you know the guy

00:21:52

that you whose business you tried to buy

00:21:55

and you say what was it about what we

00:21:56

did that made us succeed or what was it

00:21:59

about me

00:22:00

nick that made this business succeed

00:22:02

what is your answer well i think i think

00:22:03

i probably did have a good understanding

00:22:05

of what people wanted in a card

00:22:07

and the if you get down to the

00:22:09

the simplest version of that is that is

00:22:12

that a card is about showing someone

00:22:14

that you've uh you want to show them

00:22:15

that you've that it's relevant you've

00:22:16

thought about them so you've chosen

00:22:18

something which is relevant to them that

00:22:19

they're interested in or that's that's a

00:22:21

something you both find funny

00:22:23

and you can weave their name into that

00:22:25

as well um to make to show that you've

00:22:27

made an effort and then the double

00:22:28

whammy i would always personalize moon

00:22:30

picard have it sent back to me and write

00:22:31

on the inside so that's like a double

00:22:33

personalization and it's it it basically

00:22:36

is about showing you've really thought

00:22:37

about them and that's and and and it's

00:22:39

amusing as well and and the the great

00:22:41

thing is quirky british sense of humor

00:22:43

that we we love slightly mildly

00:22:44

offending each other and then we we

00:22:46

stick the cards up in our fridge

00:22:49

so

00:22:50

if you focus on that focus on the on on

00:22:52

the product everything else everything

00:22:54

else follows in behind that focus on the

00:22:55

product and then make it very very

00:22:57

efficient um and uh and everything else

00:22:59

should follow whereas whereas if you

00:23:01

don't focus on the product and you're

00:23:03

just constantly selling something that

00:23:04

people don't really want it's incredibly

00:23:06

hard work

00:23:07

on the product a lot of people have this

00:23:09

idea i think when they start businesses

00:23:11

that you have to have your hypothesis

00:23:13

your idea of what this business is going

00:23:15

to become the product of yourself

00:23:16

perfectly nailed before you um before

00:23:20

you launch and then you know i made the

00:23:21

mistake of when i started my business

00:23:23

kind of being too romantic about that

00:23:25

initial idea so i was trying to force

00:23:27

the idea into the world as opposed to

00:23:29

listening um if we'd go back before you

00:23:31

started moon pig

00:23:34

what what was your hypothesis like what

00:23:36

in terms of like personalization what

00:23:38

you know how did you arrive at a card it

00:23:40

was it was very simple actually i i

00:23:42

thought through the different ideas and

00:23:43

i and and i realized right the this

00:23:45

internet thing is is going to happen so

00:23:48

i don't know much about it but no one

00:23:49

else knows anything about it either but

00:23:50

i did at least understand how to build a

00:23:53

team so i spent 10 years in russia

00:23:54

building a team of people and building a

00:23:56

successful business um and

00:23:59

and i went through this thing of what

00:24:00

things could i what how can i use the

00:24:02

internet to make a business and digital

00:24:05

digital products were all being given

00:24:07

away for free so everyone had this idea

00:24:08

that if you could download it it ought

00:24:10

to be free well that's a hard one to

00:24:12

make money in

00:24:13

the advertising business back in those

00:24:15

days was incredibly tough because there

00:24:16

wasn't much of a market

00:24:18

not much spend was going online and you

00:24:19

were spending more money to get people

00:24:21

to come to your site to look at the

00:24:22

adverts and people are going to pay you

00:24:23

for the adverts that was tough too

00:24:26

then i looked at physical goods and if

00:24:28

you take say a digital camera one of

00:24:29

those things i looked at if i took my

00:24:31

sort of satsuma fujitsu 32db i figured

00:24:35

that somebody at some point would write

00:24:36

an algorithm that would merely compare

00:24:37

the price of my fujitsu 32dd with

00:24:39

someone else's and then they'd buy the

00:24:41

cheapest one and that ultimately would

00:24:42

end up squeezing all the margin out of

00:24:44

that game so you'd end up with a lot of

00:24:46

physical stocks stuffed

00:24:48

sitting in warehouses and minimal

00:24:50

margins so so i looked at one of the

00:24:51

things that i can what are the things i

00:24:53

can sell on the internet where i can

00:24:54

actually improve the product make it

00:24:56

better and personalization is one of

00:24:58

those things it's very difficult to do

00:24:59

personalization in store because it

00:25:01

takes up floor space and equipment and

00:25:03

so on um and um

00:25:05

and i thought of a number of different

00:25:06

things including uh personalized cds

00:25:08

well i'm really really glad i didn't do

00:25:10

that one and

00:25:11

cards occur to me because i used to um i

00:25:14

used to typically buy cards and tips out

00:25:15

the caption and write something a bit

00:25:17

funnier um more relevant and more

00:25:20

relevant on the front and and and

00:25:22

equally journalist friends of mine would

00:25:24

uh whenever anyone left the office

00:25:25

they'd be given a spoof magazine front

00:25:27

cover which would take a day and a half

00:25:29

of graphic design time to put together

00:25:31

and i and i figured

00:25:32

we got digital digital printing was

00:25:34

beginning to develop at the time and you

00:25:35

got the internet and it made it possible

00:25:37

to combine those two to make it possible

00:25:39

for someone to order a single

00:25:40

personalized greeting card which has got

00:25:42

hands down got to be better than the

00:25:44

unpersonalized thing and then i could

00:25:47

charge more for the product online than

00:25:49

for the product in the shop but more to

00:25:51

the point there's no stock

00:25:52

so um so what we've got is a pile of

00:25:54

cardboard in the corner of the room and

00:25:56

a pile of envelopes that's the only

00:25:58

stock which i think represented about a

00:25:59

quarter of a percent of turnover so

00:26:01

compared to the digital camera business

00:26:03

where you might have a whole load of

00:26:04

digital cameras on the water coming in

00:26:06

from wherever you buy them from loading

00:26:07

the warehouse and so on um it's it was

00:26:11

um it was a very efficient business

00:26:13

model i mean

00:26:14

i i gotta confess i probably slightly

00:26:16

stumbled on it rather than you know it

00:26:17

it being

00:26:19

i look at it now and think wow that that

00:26:22

accidentally was a really good business

00:26:23

model um you get paid up front you pay

00:26:25

supplies in 60 days there's no stock i

00:26:27

mean it's it's uh it was great

00:26:29

so um

00:26:31

but but fundamentally it was a better

00:26:32

product and on day one right from the

00:26:34

very beginning my

00:26:36

the business plan i came up with when i

00:26:37

was doing my mba was i want to to make

00:26:40

it possible for a customer to buy a

00:26:41

single personalized birthday card which

00:26:44

technology has suddenly made possible

00:26:45

whereas previously that would have been

00:26:47

200 quids worth of graphic design time a

00:26:49

bit of lie through i mean just not

00:26:51

possible but core to that

00:26:53

is that the person who's receiving it

00:26:55

has got to think that's a really cool

00:26:56

card

00:26:58

and there was a point where you made the

00:26:59

decision to sort of step back from

00:27:00

operations

00:27:02

i i've always tried to my general

00:27:04

approach this is uh is

00:27:06

try to focus on the things that only you

00:27:08

can do

00:27:09

um and

00:27:11

when you really narrow it down and you

00:27:12

become a bigger company you realize that

00:27:14

actually

00:27:16

that really does narrow it down a lot

00:27:18

because i was trying to hire people

00:27:20

replace the things that i was doing with

00:27:21

people who could do it better than i

00:27:22

could do it uh and then once they're

00:27:24

doing it better than i could do you

00:27:25

think gosh well i'm not going to

00:27:26

interfere with that anymore so leave

00:27:28

them to it and then it eventually then

00:27:30

comes down to um

00:27:32

uh to a role i i

00:27:34

my role eventually that became that of

00:27:36

executive chairman so i

00:27:38

brought in a ceo and i became executive

00:27:40

chairman and i suppose then my role was

00:27:42

that strategic role of making sure that

00:27:44

we're we're pointing in the right

00:27:45

direction and also that we take those

00:27:47

big decisions

00:27:48

what are you bad at

00:27:51

i'm i'm or not good not as good as

00:27:53

someone else's actually say

00:27:54

i i think i'm i'm a i'm good at

00:27:57

short-term detail i can i can sprint on

00:28:00

real fine detail um so i can i can sit

00:28:02

on a spreadsheet for six hours overnight

00:28:05

and come up with a beautiful bit of

00:28:06

financial modelling but i i've got a

00:28:08

million one things going on and and so

00:28:10

so so i don't know that i'm necessarily

00:28:12

a complete a finisher um and there are

00:28:15

people who are good at that so

00:28:16

interesting when i'm looking at hiring

00:28:18

people i i will often although

00:28:20

um i

00:28:22

academic results aren't everything

00:28:24

that you always need someone who has got

00:28:26

straight a's at a level because

00:28:29

they're very good at understanding the

00:28:30

question and delivering it delivering

00:28:32

the answer so they understand what's

00:28:33

expected of them and they deliver it in

00:28:35

a very predictable way

00:28:36

whereas

00:28:38

ceos can often be quite maverick and you

00:28:40

ask them one question and they will

00:28:41

answer something else completely

00:28:42

different but much more interesting

00:28:44

and that's fine you can afford to have

00:28:46

one or two of those mavericks but

00:28:48

somebody in the company has to be a good

00:28:50

completer finisher um they understand

00:28:52

the question and they deliver it have

00:28:54

you this is interesting so there's

00:28:56

certain people in my in my in my

00:28:58

previous business where i knew they were

00:29:00

like useless at organization and process

00:29:02

and they were they were just dread they

00:29:03

could they were like unreliable

00:29:06

but they had one skill which was genius

00:29:08

yeah and so it would almost be like

00:29:10

making an

00:29:11

exception for them within the company

00:29:13

where okay they might take a long time

00:29:15

to reply to emails and stuff like that

00:29:17

but that one point of like creative

00:29:18

genius that they brought to the company

00:29:20

was worth it yeah did you ever have that

00:29:23

very definitely you've got you've got

00:29:25

some people

00:29:26

i think creative genius always comes at

00:29:28

a price yeah

00:29:29

and and it becomes because someone has

00:29:31

focused on one thing at the expense of

00:29:34

something else generally um

00:29:35

and

00:29:37

and so you just have to work with it um

00:29:39

and and say right okay well that's

00:29:41

recognized person doesn't do that and

00:29:42

actually those skills can easily be

00:29:43

dealt with by something else that get

00:29:45

them a good

00:29:46

pa someone who can organ get a good

00:29:48

complete finisher behind them who picks

00:29:50

up after them and and and then they will

00:29:52

come up with the ideas that nobody else

00:29:54

would have come up with yeah i think

00:29:55

that works

00:29:56

you know i hate i hate

00:29:58

powder i hate mixing powder with water i

00:30:02

hate protein powders that you have to

00:30:03

mix with water

00:30:05

up until now and

00:30:07

obviously he'll sponsor this podcast so

00:30:08

i'm tremendously biased but that's a

00:30:10

that's a true story i've never been able

00:30:12

to use the like my protein powders that

00:30:14

you mix with water because i always

00:30:15

think they taste absolutely awful

00:30:17

up until hull released their brand new

00:30:19

protein flavor the amazing thing about

00:30:21

all of these proteins is there's 20

00:30:22

grams of protein you get all of your

00:30:24

vitamins and nutrients 26 of those and

00:30:27

as huel always is it's nutritionally

00:30:29

complete

00:30:30

and if you are someone that's trying to

00:30:32

go a little bit lower on the calories

00:30:34

it's only 105 calories so when i wake up

00:30:37

in the morning especially i've been

00:30:38

working out a lot lately come downstairs

00:30:40

quickly blend it together in my

00:30:41

nutribullet

00:30:42

drink it's 100 calories and then my next

00:30:45

sort of main meal because i'm a

00:30:46

breakfast skipper will be

00:30:48

at lunchtime highly recommend it um and

00:30:50

i shouldn't say this because i don't

00:30:52

have any approval to say this but

00:30:54

there's some amazing amazing flavors

00:30:56

coming in the ready to drink range that

00:30:57

i've been lucky enough to try

00:30:59

um

00:31:00

and

00:31:00

one of those is my new favorite flavor

00:31:02

so stay tuned you were talking about

00:31:04

that struggle you had for the first five

00:31:06

years of music specific i heard you

00:31:07

talking some interviews about you know

00:31:09

three four five etcetera being

00:31:10

particularly hard but um

00:31:12

what was what was the personal

00:31:15

sacrifice of that i'm thinking now about

00:31:18

how easy it was to maintain like

00:31:20

relationships and friendships when

00:31:23

you know in your head you probably have

00:31:24

that red

00:31:26

read those red numbers from the

00:31:27

management accounts and sort of etched

00:31:29

into your mind at all times can't be

00:31:31

honest never really got in the way

00:31:33

that never got in the way

00:31:35

no no i

00:31:36

i'm a lot of people confuse um that's

00:31:39

all we're running your own business

00:31:40

you're working all the hours at godsends

00:31:42

um i never did if something needs to be

00:31:44

done i could i if and only i could do it

00:31:46

then i would do it and there were time

00:31:47

you know there's the odd time when uh i

00:31:49

remember once when our entire printing

00:31:51

team uh uh

00:31:52

were off ill and

00:31:54

i came back from a business trip to

00:31:56

australia for most from australia to

00:31:57

discover that we were three three days

00:31:59

behind on on our printing schedule and i

00:32:01

simply i simply got in the printing room

00:32:02

i was the only other person qualified to

00:32:04

use the printer so i just sat in the

00:32:06

printing room and i worked uh

00:32:08

24 hours a day for two for three days i

00:32:10

think to get it all done so yes there

00:32:12

were times but but i had a great social

00:32:15

life i've always been a great believer

00:32:16

also that that i i need to i like to

00:32:18

manage a business

00:32:19

you know during reasonable hours i don't

00:32:21

i don't think it's important that people

00:32:22

need to sacrifice themselves on the

00:32:24

altar of my business and i don't like

00:32:26

them doing that one because it makes me

00:32:27

feel guilty about skyping off um you

00:32:29

know if you've got all of your whole of

00:32:30

your people in the office and they're

00:32:31

they're working 24 hours a day and and

00:32:33

you're sort of you know taking half the

00:32:35

day off to go and do something fun

00:32:36

i

00:32:38

feel awful um so

00:32:39

so i try to make sure the same standards

00:32:41

apply and and

00:32:42

and that people should people should

00:32:43

work a proper you know proper day's work

00:32:45

in the hours that they would

00:32:47

like to work within reason um but i do

00:32:49

expect them to go off and go and do

00:32:51

something different and recharge their

00:32:52

batteries in the evening and the

00:32:53

weekends and

00:32:55

you know because otherwise you just run

00:32:57

out of steam and particularly it was a

00:32:58

creative business you know we're

00:33:00

trying to make people laugh if you're

00:33:02

exhausted and miserable um

00:33:04

um that's tough

00:33:06

it goes against a lot of the sort of

00:33:07

typical narrative doesn't it in

00:33:08

entrepreneurship like the hustle porn

00:33:10

star entrepreneur who just like back in

00:33:12

doesn't sleep and

00:33:13

just caffeine and just you know they're

00:33:15

like crying in the street

00:33:17

like

00:33:18

and they're like you know eating ramen

00:33:19

noodles and stuff like that what does

00:33:20

that what does that narrative make you

00:33:22

uh make you think

00:33:23

well i think that's true if you start a

00:33:25

business with a lot of people start a

00:33:26

business with nothing and a lot of

00:33:27

businesses fail and and as those

00:33:29

businesses are failing clearly obviously

00:33:31

you're down to your last pennies and

00:33:33

that's tough and and and so i think that

00:33:35

the thing that they're describing is

00:33:37

that is the last sort of death throes of

00:33:39

a business and i you know i've seen lots

00:33:41

of businesses that i've invested in go

00:33:42

through the same thing where there is no

00:33:44

money left you can't pay salaries uh and

00:33:47

the the founders are down to uh you know

00:33:49

they're living in the office um under

00:33:51

the desk and and exactly eating noodles

00:33:54

uh and and

00:33:56

so that happens um

00:33:58

but

00:33:59

it but it is it isn't it isn't an

00:34:00

essential part of the journey but

00:34:02

generally the death rows

00:34:04

and occasionally you survive i mean you

00:34:06

know i had i not had had i not had that

00:34:08

last bit of cash that i put in i i may

00:34:10

well have been one of those cases um

00:34:12

what about focus a lot of entrepreneurs

00:34:13

you know have

00:34:14

i get a lot of messages from

00:34:16

entrepreneurs that have multiple

00:34:17

businesses

00:34:18

three or four startups they're doing at

00:34:19

the same time well i wouldn't invest in

00:34:21

anybody that had multiple startups

00:34:23

but what way you know because if i'd had

00:34:25

three businesses going at the same time

00:34:26

as a moon thinking was going badly you

00:34:28

you focus on the one that's going well

00:34:30

because it makes you feel better so

00:34:32

i

00:34:33

and then the person then they then they

00:34:35

turn around to the investors who put

00:34:36

money into the third one and they say

00:34:37

i'm yeah and i've given up with that one

00:34:40

i'm off to so there is no way i mean

00:34:42

when i invest in a business i would make

00:34:44

sure that there's a clause that says

00:34:45

that the foundation the founder

00:34:46

shareholders have to be 100 focused on

00:34:48

that they're not allowed to have more

00:34:50

than a four five percent stake in

00:34:51

another unlimited company i'm pretty

00:34:53

strict about that yeah i i mean i just

00:34:55

think it's laughable yeah absolutely

00:34:57

laughable that people come along and

00:34:59

they get you i've got three ideas and

00:35:00

i'd like you to invest in this one

00:35:02

but i've got those just in case that one

00:35:04

doesn't work yeah

00:35:05

for me it's for me as well i i tend to

00:35:07

think all three will fail because you're

00:35:08

giving like 30 in my way that i've even

00:35:10

if you're not prioritizing you're giving

00:35:11

33

00:35:12

of your time and energy

00:35:14

and all your competitors are giving 101

00:35:16

and a lot of them might be sleeping

00:35:17

under the desk so if you're giving 30

00:35:19

you're it's already hard enough to

00:35:21

succeed giving 100

00:35:22

yeah so you're really setting yourself

00:35:24

up to failure but i think there's this

00:35:26

weird thing where entrepreneurs find it

00:35:27

impressive

00:35:28

to some some entrepreneurs find it

00:35:30

impressive to list multiple businesses

00:35:32

that they're doing and i swear if i hear

00:35:34

an entrepreneur come to me with an idea

00:35:35

and they've also got another thing

00:35:37

they're doing i'm immediately deeply

00:35:39

unimpressed by them because i think

00:35:41

they've got this focus problem um

00:35:44

and maybe they're you know like maybe

00:35:47

they sat down and

00:35:49

tried to think of a business idea and

00:35:51

for me like when business ideas don't

00:35:52

come from some type of inspiration when

00:35:55

they're literally just contrived from

00:35:57

i'm going to try and think of a business

00:35:59

idea

00:36:00

i think that it's typically more

00:36:01

difficult i think like some form of

00:36:03

inspiration even if it's a small thing

00:36:05

of inspiration as a it's integral to

00:36:07

success

00:36:08

and creating something unique um

00:36:11

but yeah that's another thing that

00:36:13

irritates me about

00:36:14

i i i i get just as irritated by that

00:36:16

the times when you have to push on

00:36:18

through that barrier and if you've got

00:36:20

three things going

00:36:21

and one of them is an easier journey

00:36:23

that's where you're going to focus

00:36:24

yourself when in fact the that is the

00:36:26

absolute time that you need to be

00:36:28

completely focused on on on crashing

00:36:30

through that wall that you've come up

00:36:31

against

00:36:33

and and that's where

00:36:34

the best inspiration i ever had and

00:36:36

sometimes actually

00:36:37

looking back the most exciting times i

00:36:39

ever had in my business were when my

00:36:40

back was absolutely against the one

00:36:42

thing this is going down this is going

00:36:45

down and bizarrely i found that quite

00:36:47

invigorating

00:36:48

um when everything is going incredibly

00:36:50

well

00:36:50

there were times when i think

00:36:52

everything's going very well everyone's

00:36:53

doing their job frankly i could be here

00:36:54

and not be here it doesn't make much

00:36:56

difference um

00:36:57

in terms of skills as well as an

00:36:58

entrepreneur you i heard you talk about

00:37:00

public speaking being integral to

00:37:02

you did public speaking at university i

00:37:03

did i did a lot of public speaking at

00:37:05

university and a lot of debating and

00:37:07

the skill i think that's important is

00:37:08

the ability to be able to persuade

00:37:10

people of your ideas not necessarily

00:37:12

public speaking but in every meeting

00:37:13

that you go to you need to be able to

00:37:15

look people in the eye and convince them

00:37:16

that your idea is right and and that

00:37:19

could be in a sales role it could be

00:37:21

sitting around a table with a bunch of

00:37:22

developers and one of them saying i

00:37:24

think this is the right way forward if

00:37:25

you can't articulate yourself properly

00:37:27

then you're never going to be listened

00:37:28

to and that's a skill that i think is is

00:37:30

um

00:37:31

uh it's being recognized in schools i do

00:37:33

a lot in education now so i i see now

00:37:35

more and more they recognize that that's

00:37:37

a skill that is

00:37:38

really important that people should be

00:37:40

able to look someone in the eye and be

00:37:41

able to explain yourself very very

00:37:43

coherently i i tend to actually believe

00:37:45

i'd go one step further and think i

00:37:46

can't think of a more important skill in

00:37:48

life and business then we i call i refer

00:37:51

to it as sales because and we think of

00:37:54

sales we think of trying to get cash out

00:37:55

of someone else's pocket by giving them

00:37:56

something but i think if it was like

00:37:58

meet a girl in a nightclub you know try

00:38:00

and communicate your idea to your team

00:38:02

investors employees um everyone you

00:38:05

encounter i think is a to some degree

00:38:07

you're trying to sell something and it's

00:38:09

usually yourself yeah but and those that

00:38:11

are you think about how that compounds

00:38:12

over the over 70 years of your life

00:38:14

being good or bad at that one skill

00:38:16

will anything change the trajectory of

00:38:18

your life more than being like a good

00:38:19

sales person

00:38:21

and that comes from as you say from

00:38:22

being able to articulate yourself and

00:38:23

speak and

00:38:25

yeah and just think coherently and put

00:38:27

down

00:38:28

a logical argument that people think yes

00:38:30

okay i get that i understand it how does

00:38:32

one get better at that

00:38:34

i think a lot of that's practice

00:38:35

um and

00:38:37

i i think you know people make this uh

00:38:39

sort of binary thing between public

00:38:40

speaking standing on stage and speaking

00:38:42

to a crowd of people um versus not doing

00:38:44

anything at all and actually in between

00:38:45

there's a whole load of stuff which is

00:38:46

which is

00:38:47

working within a team and being able to

00:38:50

and that that's where most people come

00:38:52

up against it is that they'll be sitting

00:38:53

in a meeting with four or five other

00:38:54

people and they've got something they

00:38:56

want to say

00:38:57

and they

00:38:58

they if they're too nervous about saying

00:39:00

something they just don't say anything

00:39:01

at all and then their ideas are never

00:39:02

listened to yeah and then they're

00:39:04

devalued in that context and similarly

00:39:06

it may not necessarily be a spoken word

00:39:09

you've also got to be able to write well

00:39:10

and convincingly then there's another

00:39:12

side of it which is the numeracy side

00:39:14

and i find i find that the the most

00:39:16

convincing is when i went i i love a

00:39:18

good spreadsheet but uh but when you can

00:39:20

express ideas in in numbers and you say

00:39:22

look this is the model that works and

00:39:23

you can prove it in in numbers

00:39:25

it is it's a very convincing thing

00:39:27

particularly

00:39:28

yeah i think right if we do this this is

00:39:30

the evidence we've got

00:39:32

that's what will happen yeah that's very

00:39:34

convincing um so there's there's there's

00:39:36

also being numerous and being able to

00:39:38

explain things in numbers which

00:39:40

is yeah yeah it's so true yeah you can

00:39:42

be like orally persuasive which is you

00:39:44

know anecdotal persuasion i guess and

00:39:47

then you can be persuasive with numbers

00:39:48

which is uh or graphics and that's the

00:39:50

other thing i i do see the quality of

00:39:52

decks in the last 15 years has

00:39:54

dramatically improved um and

00:39:57

in that all that they're much much more

00:39:58

engaging and and there's some real

00:40:00

creative genius behind some of the stuff

00:40:02

i mean occasionally they don't talk

00:40:04

about the numbers which is

00:40:05

a beautiful beautiful peaceful

00:40:06

presentation and in a big sort of you

00:40:08

know you go through the the docs end and

00:40:10

it's all fantastic it looks lovely

00:40:12

beautiful graphics and then you think

00:40:13

you have kind of missed out the point

00:40:14

about how you're going to make any money

00:40:16

but so there's a lot more so again but

00:40:18

that comes down to how you persuade

00:40:19

people how you present how you present

00:40:21

ideas not all of us

00:40:23

not all of us understand things by

00:40:24

listening some people understand by

00:40:25

seeing i see patterns in numbers but not

00:40:28

everyone does and i i realize that now

00:40:30

that that just because i happen to see

00:40:32

something one way doesn't mean to say

00:40:33

that everybody else sees it in that way

00:40:35

and you have to understand how people

00:40:37

how people communicate one of the on

00:40:39

that point about you know persuasion and

00:40:41

communication um one of the most amazing

00:40:43

things that happened to me inadvertently

00:40:45

was um well one of them's right here i

00:40:48

started doing a podcast and i from i

00:40:50

never the unintended um consequence of

00:40:53

me

00:40:54

being forced to speak on stage because i

00:40:55

was running around the world talking

00:40:56

about marketing um and being forced to

00:40:58

write out and i do quotes on instagram

00:41:00

write these quotes every single day at 7

00:41:02

pm on instagram and then write i used to

00:41:04

write this podcast i used to just be on

00:41:06

my own um was that i a and was able to

00:41:09

develop my ideas better so if you ask me

00:41:11

any question marketing well i've already

00:41:12

written it out i've written written an

00:41:14

essay on it because i had to do a blog

00:41:16

because i had to wear my personal brand

00:41:17

or if you asked me something else about

00:41:20

my life i've already spent

00:41:22

you know a thousand hours talking on

00:41:24

this podcast about it was i became um

00:41:26

much i'd say 10x better at communicating

00:41:29

and the impact that i had on my life was

00:41:30

just profound so my conclusive point

00:41:32

here is i really think for young people

00:41:34

that there are ways to force yourself to

00:41:36

accelerate that learning yeah one of

00:41:38

them is like keep like you know

00:41:40

keep a blog yeah start a podcast even if

00:41:42

no one's listening to it

00:41:44

um

00:41:45

and i i i people will start podcasts

00:41:48

because they're trying to make money or

00:41:49

because they want to be famous or have

00:41:50

loads of followers but i but i think the

00:41:52

more beneficial thing

00:41:54

is the skill um

00:41:56

the skills you'll learn from doing it

00:41:57

and oh my god sales is just everything

00:41:59

to me yeah

00:42:00

you're right when you have to write a

00:42:02

blog actually write the words down it

00:42:04

really forces you to think about how to

00:42:05

express things coherently

00:42:07

in a way that

00:42:09

verbally you can get away with a lot

00:42:12

less discipline

00:42:13

dragon's done

00:42:14

something we share in common yes indeed

00:42:16

yeah i've just uh just started on the

00:42:18

show

00:42:19

um it was a yeah i mean

00:42:22

the first pitch everything walking in

00:42:23

behind the cell i mean i first watched

00:42:25

it when i was 12 years old

00:42:26

it was also surreal how was your

00:42:28

experience when dragons dragonstone

00:42:29

and what advice would you have for me

00:42:31

let's do the first question okay well so

00:42:32

my so i i love the experience um i mean

00:42:35

partly it because it's it's very

00:42:38

forgiving television to make in the

00:42:39

sense that uh you arrive on set apart

00:42:42

from the fact there are seven cameras

00:42:44

which was distracting for about the

00:42:46

first hour or two other than that it's

00:42:48

people walking through the door and

00:42:49

they're saying this is who i am this is

00:42:50

my business

00:42:51

and it's one of those things that i

00:42:53

think i think if you're

00:42:54

if you're thinking about that as a

00:42:55

potential career

00:42:57

it's about as realistic as you can get

00:43:00

while still being entertaining these are

00:43:01

these are real businesses that people

00:43:02

have spent sometimes several years

00:43:04

developing and put their life and soul

00:43:05

into it it's not some concocted thing

00:43:07

that um you know here's 100 pounds

00:43:11

go and see how much cheese you can sell

00:43:12

on the market at the type thing that you

00:43:14

see in the apprentice these are real

00:43:16

businesses and i think it's been very

00:43:17

inspiring i've seen a ground a real

00:43:20

shift in

00:43:21

the time that i've been around in

00:43:22

people's attitudes to becoming an

00:43:23

entrepreneur um because of yeah

00:43:26

partly but you know partly because i

00:43:28

think there's also been a shift in

00:43:29

attitude generally yeah and a lot of a

00:43:31

lot of young people aspire to the idea

00:43:33

that actually when you're young and

00:43:34

you've got nothing to lose

00:43:36

you can afford to make more mistakes so

00:43:38

rather than so you can just go straight

00:43:39

straight into it after after school

00:43:41

start something and

00:43:42

crash and burn start again and you can

00:43:44

do it all now from your phone as well

00:43:46

you know you can set up a shop

00:43:47

using shopify on your phone in a couple

00:43:49

of minutes and sell you know you can

00:43:50

even drop shop drop ship things so you

00:43:52

don't need a warehouse or anything like

00:43:53

that so it's very incredibly accessible

00:43:55

now yeah um more people young people

00:43:58

want to be entrepreneurs than ever

00:43:59

before but uh but but i i think it's it

00:44:01

i'm i'm really looking forward to seeing

00:44:03

uh and seeing this new series because i

00:44:05

think you will add a uh kind of a

00:44:08

different a different dimension to it in

00:44:09

terms of thinking particularly the way

00:44:11

that businesses now you know the way

00:44:12

that particularly tech businesses and

00:44:14

the way that they're funded

00:44:15

um is yeah it's very it's very different

00:44:18

from 20 years ago yeah

00:44:20

one of the things i didn't expect as

00:44:21

well was how useful the other dragons

00:44:23

are when it comes to analyzing the

00:44:25

business oh yeah yeah because they all

00:44:26

come from different disciplines so

00:44:28

deborah's going to help me with the

00:44:29

numbers over here and peter's got his

00:44:31

background in tech and you know

00:44:32

logistics and all the amazing things he

00:44:34

does and tuca's going to be able to

00:44:35

really sort of interrogate the supply

00:44:37

chain and sarah understands the craft

00:44:39

industry and business generally and um

00:44:41

so it was it's really uh they said

00:44:43

sometimes you just gotta let them

00:44:44

interrogate the business from all of

00:44:46

their angles i i learned a lot i learned

00:44:49

a very very important lesson from

00:44:50

deborah about um the food business and

00:44:52

going to supermarkets

00:44:53

she was interrogating somebody and and

00:44:56

talking about their gross margin and she

00:44:57

said well of course

00:44:58

as soon as your sales go up

00:45:00

your gross margin will go down i'm

00:45:02

thinking

00:45:03

what are you talking about

00:45:04

and then and i asked her about this

00:45:06

afterwards and she said well the problem

00:45:07

is that supermarkets love to have young

00:45:09

pioneer brands in uh and they

00:45:12

um and they will allow you to be on

00:45:14

their shelves so there's pyramid of

00:45:15

products and they allow you these little

00:45:17

innovative little companies to be to add

00:45:19

interest to their shelves the moment

00:45:21

that it looks interesting and you want

00:45:22

to sell more of it the supermarket is

00:45:25

aha now let's talk about the price

00:45:27

because they they know how to make that

00:45:28

stuff even better than you do they know

00:45:30

how to squeeze you down to a barely

00:45:31

acceptable margin and so your margin

00:45:33

which looked okay at the beginning and

00:45:34

they'll say well you can sell a lot more

00:45:35

but we're gonna have to have a different

00:45:37

price and that's and that was a lesson i

00:45:39

learned from deborah so so sitting back

00:45:40

and listening sometimes and and you know

00:45:42

like you know tuca's knowledge of supply

00:45:44

chain

00:45:45

and in textiles in particular it's quite

00:45:47

quite fascinating

00:45:49

so jumping back to your business then

00:45:50

moving so eventually you sell the

00:45:52

business yeah um fully or in part well i

00:45:55

sold i sold most of it in 2011 and i

00:45:57

rolled over

00:45:59

i rolled over into the venture capital

00:46:00

investment in the new in the new company

00:46:02

we basically merged two companies we

00:46:03

merged photo box and moon pick together

00:46:05

um with a lot of venture capital money

00:46:07

and and so i reinvested in that and then

00:46:10

we sold sold it all out in 2016.

00:46:12

um

00:46:13

so there's a couple of things here that

00:46:14

was the first point where you became

00:46:15

really rich

00:46:17

well

00:46:18

we moving started making a lot of money

00:46:19

before we sold oh right so we were

00:46:21

probably making about 10 million a year

00:46:24

in dividends um so

00:46:27

because it was making money faster

00:46:29

faster than we could spend it on

00:46:30

advertising so so so we just paid it out

00:46:33

as dividends i think

00:46:34

we paid out about 30 million pounds in

00:46:36

dividends before we sold oh wow so um

00:46:38

quite literally printing money so so by

00:46:40

the time i sold actually it wasn't as if

00:46:42

it was transformational because um

00:46:44

i i hadn't spent the money i i've still

00:46:47

got all the money that i'd taken out as

00:46:48

dividends so when when you so if you you

00:46:51

really built enough wealth to take care

00:46:52

of all of your sort of base basic maslow

00:46:54

over your needs clearly you know yeah so

00:46:56

when you when you sell

00:46:57

how how does that feel well it was funny

00:47:00

i i was i i was interviewed afterwards

00:47:02

and uh on sky i think and they said well

00:47:04

you know what are you gonna buy uh what

00:47:06

are you gonna do now

00:47:07

and i was like

00:47:09

what did you do immediately afterwards

00:47:10

and i thought well i cycled home and i

00:47:12

made a peanut butter and jam sandwich i

00:47:13

mean that was because

00:47:15

there was a

00:47:16

it's slightly

00:47:17

it's a bit of a weird anti-climax

00:47:18

selling i don't know how it was for you

00:47:20

but i went into a large room and i had

00:47:22

to sign about 200 documents um on my own

00:47:24

and then i sort of done it now and they

00:47:26

get a great well money have been banked

00:47:27

later on

00:47:29

back of the bike cycle home that was it

00:47:31

oh there was no sort of you know

00:47:33

no trumpets you know no signings shaking

00:47:36

hands it was it was um um quite a

00:47:38

non-event really so the money arrives

00:47:40

the same day when you've sold um yes

00:47:43

yeah well not not all of it i think it

00:47:44

was done it was done in stages but

00:47:45

mostly arrived on the same day yeah yeah

00:47:47

and so that you sold the company over a

00:47:50

100 million at the time yeah rolled

00:47:52

shares into the the holding company as

00:47:53

well um to keep it sort of invested in

00:47:55

an interest in the business

00:47:57

um

00:47:58

yeah i mean that's a that's a

00:48:00

[ __ ] ton of money did was there sort of

00:48:02

a loss in because you've given up your

00:48:04

your business here you've given up your

00:48:06

focus yeah your baby was there a bit of

00:48:08

a lot like a loss of orientation like

00:48:10

what do i do now with my life

00:48:13

yes though at the same time i think i

00:48:15

got to a point where i delegated

00:48:16

everything within the company and i had

00:48:17

been largely focused on the sale process

00:48:19

for a year or so so after that sales

00:48:21

process was over you think well

00:48:23

now the day-to-day running of this

00:48:24

business has been left to uh the the

00:48:27

team they're all doing a fantastic job

00:48:29

they're all bright and they're probably

00:48:31

better than i am

00:48:32

so me sticking around in that kind of if

00:48:34

i decided to carry on running the

00:48:36

business for profit i could have done

00:48:37

but i but i i felt as though i'd run my

00:48:39

course i felt as i added everything i

00:48:41

could add to that business and there

00:48:42

were lots of other things i wanted to do

00:48:43

in life um so

00:48:45

um

00:48:46

in a way it was

00:48:47

it was a challenge to sort of create an

00:48:49

identity outside of that you know

00:48:51

because for a long time i've been missed

00:48:53

a rusher i'd gone to russia and everyone

00:48:54

knew me as the person who went to russia

00:48:56

and did things in russia and then i did

00:48:58

as i started moving i fell into

00:49:00

obscurity again people think oh poor

00:49:02

nicki does something with greeting cards

00:49:03

um

00:49:04

and i go home at christmas

00:49:06

to back to shropshire and my parents

00:49:08

friends would say

00:49:09

so you do something with greeting cards

00:49:11

is that something you do

00:49:12

from your spare room yeah anyway very

00:49:16

very very i mean having because i'd run

00:49:18

quite a big business in russia and and

00:49:19

then of course it started it turned into

00:49:21

something serious um

00:49:23

so it was an interesting challenge which

00:49:24

is how do you sort of reinvent yourself

00:49:26

after that and i i i actually stopped i

00:49:28

went into the charity sector um

00:49:29

full-time and i became a ceo of a

00:49:32

children's charity for uh

00:49:34

for a year full time and then i became a

00:49:35

trustee of that for another four years

00:49:37

why um

00:49:40

well partly because i think i i'd

00:49:42

i think i sort of satisfied i felt as

00:49:44

i'd satisfied everything that i needed

00:49:45

to you know i didn't want any more stuff

00:49:47

so i wasn't

00:49:49

it was it was going to be hard to get

00:49:51

motivated just by making more money um

00:49:53

so so i wanted to have

00:49:54

i wanted to make sure whatever i did

00:49:56

after that was useful so socially useful

00:49:58

in some respect but for that you've got

00:49:59

to kind of do the work you've got to

00:50:01

understand

00:50:02

how to make a how to make a difference

00:50:04

and

00:50:05

and that first year really made me

00:50:07

realize how complicated it is and how

00:50:10

difficult it is to make a to make a real

00:50:12

difference um in the world um

00:50:15

uh so it's fascinating um and and i

00:50:17

wouldn't have been able to do that if i

00:50:18

hadn't if i hadn't sold the company i

00:50:19

wouldn't have the freedom to go off and

00:50:21

and and do that it's not interesting

00:50:22

that people they typically it's this is

00:50:25

a super like generalization and it's not

00:50:26

necessarily the truth but it appears

00:50:28

that we all start quite selfish in life

00:50:30

it's like let me get rich and free first

00:50:33

and then you see that transition when

00:50:34

people do make money is their joy comes

00:50:37

from philanthropy and helping others

00:50:39

i think but i think

00:50:41

you know in that very privileged

00:50:42

position of of

00:50:44

having seen what it's like afterwards

00:50:46

because of course for most people they

00:50:48

they want more things

00:50:50

i think

00:50:51

money a lack of financial problems can

00:50:53

bring you happiness not having financial

00:50:55

problems financial problems brings you

00:50:56

misery when you're beyond financial

00:50:58

problems um

00:50:59

you're neutral and then there's and then

00:51:01

there's and then there's financial

00:51:02

freedom which is i'm now free i don't

00:51:04

have to do the nine-to-five job

00:51:06

i have the option if i want to do to do

00:51:07

other things beyond that pretty i'd say

00:51:10

it's pretty diminishing marginal returns

00:51:12

i mean i think for some people

00:51:13

the more money they make it's about it's

00:51:15

not about the money itself it's more

00:51:16

about uh their position in our you know

00:51:19

you know if you're very competitive as a

00:51:20

hierarchy of people and there's someone

00:51:22

up there who's you know who's made

00:51:24

jeff bezos up there

00:51:27

and they see themselves on that

00:51:28

trajectory they'll never quite be happy

00:51:29

until they're up there and they'll never

00:51:30

get there so yeah um

00:51:33

i i realized very early on that if you

00:51:35

if that i wanted to avoid getting into

00:51:37

that

00:51:38

into that sort of competitive mindset of

00:51:39

thinking that i have to be somewhere on

00:51:41

that trajectory i've kind of you know

00:51:42

satisfied what i what i need in terms of

00:51:45

in terms of

00:51:46

you know stuff housing and whatever um

00:51:49

and then thereafter it's about being

00:51:50

free to explore other things one of the

00:51:52

things i noticed about you that's like

00:51:54

very different to the other um

00:51:56

successful people that i've talked to

00:51:58

and we touched on that a little bit was

00:51:59

you and we talked about a little bit

00:52:01

earlier but my question is i'm slightly

00:52:02

related um is

00:52:05

there seems to be a lot of like neurotic

00:52:07

obsession with people's

00:52:11

businesses hobbies i mean i remember

00:52:13

sitting with eddie hearn here and him

00:52:15

telling me how like how i mean his book

00:52:17

is called relentless like how relentless

00:52:18

he is and to the point where he will

00:52:20

sacrifice his family

00:52:22

to for the business and he'll tell him

00:52:23

he'll speak to have the conversation

00:52:24

with his wife and say my business is

00:52:26

everything if i you know don't make the

00:52:28

date if i don't make this then it is

00:52:30

what it is i am obsessed

00:52:32

um you don't seem to be like that

00:52:35

and that makes one would then therefore

00:52:37

assume

00:52:38

that

00:52:39

the problem that sometimes comes with

00:52:41

being like that which is a severe

00:52:44

cost to sort of relationships

00:52:47

wouldn't be present in you

00:52:49

i think you can be driven by two things

00:52:50

you can be driven by demons or driven by

00:52:51

passion

00:52:53

and it's much better to be driven by

00:52:54

passion than demons yeah some people are

00:52:56

some some people were offended at the

00:52:57

age of 11 by a comment that somebody

00:52:59

made to them that they'll never amount

00:53:00

to anything

00:53:01

and they have struggled ever since to

00:53:03

prove to that person that a teacher said

00:53:05

something bad to them and then finally

00:53:07

they go back sort of 35 years they go

00:53:09

back to school and and and they find

00:53:11

this old teacher who says well i always

00:53:13

thought you'd make something of yourself

00:53:14

and they think

00:53:15

[ __ ] i was hoping it's going to be more

00:53:16

gratifying

00:53:18

it was it was

00:53:19

you know the teacher might just say i

00:53:20

just felt you needed a bit of a kick um

00:53:22

to get yourself off you and it worked

00:53:23

didn't it um so um

00:53:26

some people are driven by

00:53:29

and the people who driven by demons are

00:53:30

often it doesn't make them happy like an

00:53:32

itch they're scratching and it just

00:53:33

makes it makes it worse amen eddie hands

00:53:35

basically like that and he he was quite

00:53:37

honest about that his dad basically he

00:53:38

was always trying to live up to his

00:53:40

dad's expectations of him

00:53:42

and i remember saying to him i remember

00:53:43

saying to eddie i was you know what's

00:53:45

the goal then eddie well you know we're

00:53:46

gonna sell it for five billion yeah and

00:53:48

then what

00:53:50

and then he's like well you know then i

00:53:51

you know i'll have my cigar and i'll go

00:53:52

to the beach do you actually think you'd

00:53:54

go to the beach cigar you just told me

00:53:56

you're obsessive and right and he goes

00:53:57

probably not probably probably

00:53:59

and actually the difficult thing is then

00:54:01

what do you do afterwards i think

00:54:02

because

00:54:03

i think it's one thing a lot of people

00:54:05

they think a business of starting a

00:54:06

business is about you start a business

00:54:08

and then you're working towards an exit

00:54:09

and happiness comes and exit it doesn't

00:54:11

happiness comes from the process of

00:54:12

building a business and working with

00:54:14

people and pulling together bright

00:54:16

people watching the work and creating

00:54:17

this thing i love the learning process i

00:54:19

think that's perhaps one of the other

00:54:20

things that i learned out of all of this

00:54:21

is that

00:54:22

i really really enjoy learning

00:54:24

and it doesn't matter how much money

00:54:26

you've got you can't learn japanese any

00:54:27

quicker but you can learn a little bit

00:54:29

quicker if you've got some really good

00:54:30

but basically you've got to put the work

00:54:32

in doesn't matter how rich you are you

00:54:34

can't buy that you've actually got to

00:54:35

put the work in that drives you so do

00:54:37

you think you're a balanced person i'm

00:54:39

trying to get i'll be honest what i'm

00:54:40

trying to understand here is

00:54:43

a lot of the entrepreneurs that i meet

00:54:44

that the reason why they're successful

00:54:46

is because of as you say you described

00:54:47

it perfectly because of demons or

00:54:49

something yeah and then that costs them

00:54:50

somewhere else yeah you seem to be as

00:54:52

was the case with the um the ceo of

00:54:55

delivery who sat here a couple weeks ago

00:54:58

fairly balanced person so i'm assuming

00:55:00

then you have really well-balanced

00:55:02

relationships

00:55:04

i think i got great friends and great

00:55:05

great friends and great relationships

00:55:06

and and a lovely family and um

00:55:09

um but but that's partly comes down to

00:55:11

it and part of it comes down to standing

00:55:13

back and thinking you know what is

00:55:14

success and i look at success that more

00:55:16

rounded thing what makes you a

00:55:17

successful human being

00:55:18

and and if you look at that then you're

00:55:21

constantly looking you're constantly

00:55:22

measuring yourself by well like actually

00:55:24

what do my friends think of me what do i

00:55:25

think i'm a good person am i a good

00:55:27

person i think i'm a good person um how

00:55:29

am i going to look look back at my life

00:55:30

and be embarrassed at the way that i've

00:55:32

trodden on people on the way up and and

00:55:34

and in which case you know don't tread

00:55:36

on people on the way up

00:55:37

so it depends on what you regard as

00:55:39

success what you define as success in

00:55:41

the beginning i think unfortunately we

00:55:43

too often we measure the things that are

00:55:45

easiest to measure and the easiest thing

00:55:46

to measure is how wealthy someone is um

00:55:49

so

00:55:50

when i go back to talk to talk at

00:55:52

schools about about all my old school

00:55:53

about about and you're invited along

00:55:56

presumably because everyone's heard of a

00:55:57

business that you've created i i'm

00:55:59

reluctant to create this illusion that

00:56:01

that you know if you work incredibly

00:56:03

hard you can make a lot of money and

00:56:04

that will make you successful you have

00:56:05

to be a successful human being

00:56:07

what is a successful human being well i

00:56:09

think it's all the you know those things

00:56:10

that one you've got to be you've got to

00:56:11

be a good citizen you've got to make

00:56:12

your fair contra you've got to make a

00:56:13

good contribution to society now if

00:56:15

you're good at business um you are of

00:56:17

course helping to pay a lot of the bills

00:56:18

which is a great thing um if you pay

00:56:20

your taxes properly but the um

00:56:23

but but but equally it's about the way

00:56:24

that you treat your employees it's about

00:56:26

the way that you treat the people around

00:56:27

you um and

00:56:29

all of those things i think the things

00:56:30

that you look back on your own life and

00:56:32

you think did i did i lead a good life

00:56:33

um was i was i was i a good person um or

00:56:37

do i regret look back and think you know

00:56:39

i was a bit harsh

00:56:41

quick one as a serial entrepreneur

00:56:43

that's currently building multiple

00:56:45

projects across multiple industries

00:56:47

everything from the marketing industry

00:56:48

to blockchain to consumer goods

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everything one of the things that has

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been a lifesaver for me and again a

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as you look ahead in you know the next

00:57:48

chapter of your life yeah we talked you

00:57:50

talked there about how the journey is

00:57:51

actually there where all the fun and

00:57:52

fulfillment lives yeah um and you kind

00:57:55

of like because i think we all kind of

00:57:56

like mentally map out what the next

00:57:58

phase of our life will look like we

00:58:00

don't necessarily know the details that

00:58:01

have a business plan but we understand

00:58:02

like the the fundamentals of that phase

00:58:05

what what are you what are you hoping

00:58:07

will be

00:58:08

part of that phase um

00:58:11

at the stage of life you're at where

00:58:12

money isn't you know money isn't gonna

00:58:14

mean that you can can or can't eat um

00:58:16

what are you trying to put into that

00:58:18

chapter of your life well um the other

00:58:19

thing i've realized um and i i listened

00:58:22

to something bill gates said which is

00:58:23

that if bill gates had become a doctor

00:58:25

he could have affected quite a few

00:58:26

people's lives but by going into

00:58:28

business he affected millions of

00:58:29

people's lives and he was very good at

00:58:31

making money and so i don't see anything

00:58:33

wrong with pursuing i mean now

00:58:36

i'm actively pursuing the businesses

00:58:37

that i that i'm involved with and i

00:58:39

would love to make more money but then

00:58:40

that gives me the freedom to do

00:58:41

something useful with that money it as a

00:58:43

whole other dimension to why are you

00:58:44

doing it i mean i'm chasing because i

00:58:46

need another lamborghini

00:58:48

because i've got a very old battered

00:58:49

discovery and a lamborghini

00:58:51

it's just not what i was going to say i

00:58:52

can imagine you're in a landfill no no

00:58:54

i'm just a very very tired old discovery

00:58:56

which i'm driving into the ground before

00:58:57

i buy an electric car but there's got to

00:58:59

be a reason for doing it and and you

00:59:01

know the reason

00:59:02

the reason for creating companies partly

00:59:03

because it is it is good fun i mean i

00:59:05

you know

00:59:06

thoroughly enjoy you have an idea and

00:59:08

you're creating something um

00:59:10

and

00:59:11

uh

00:59:12

if seeing your idea come play out and

00:59:14

you think yeah i was right that that

00:59:16

hypothesis was right so we pull together

00:59:18

some good people and it starts to work

00:59:20

and then 10 10 years later

00:59:22

absolutely that that that worked and

00:59:24

we've got a whole lot of people in

00:59:25

employment they're enjoying themselves

00:59:26

and the great thing also is when you

00:59:28

step back from that and you think that

00:59:30

that thing i mean moon pig has a life

00:59:31

its own i was in the car the other day

00:59:33

and there was a moon being advert came

00:59:34

on the radio

00:59:35

i've been i've been out of that for a

00:59:37

long time now i haven't been involved

00:59:39

you know haven't worked there for 10

00:59:41

years and and yet that's

00:59:42

it sort of carried on without me um

00:59:44

there's a huge sense of pride in that

00:59:46

when you see that it must be surely yeah

00:59:47

and actually you know when you sell a

00:59:48

business it's also a sense of pride that

00:59:50

it worked for them as well i think the

00:59:51

very best deals are deals where both

00:59:53

parties came away happy will you ever be

00:59:55

a ceo again

00:59:58

i don't know that i will because

01:00:00

i enjoy i enjoy the sort of that being

01:00:03

having the freedom to do different

01:00:04

things um and

01:00:07

there are plus and minuses to have this

01:00:08

this plural life um

01:00:10

i've realized that having doing 10 of 10

01:00:13

things is twice as much work as doing

01:00:14

100 of one thing

01:00:16

um

01:00:17

twice as much work definitely twice too

01:00:19

much work but partly from a very simple

01:00:21

perspective is the is the um i mean

01:00:24

nesso now post covered but before that

01:00:27

they actually simply they're getting

01:00:28

from one place to the other oh yeah you

01:00:30

know and that that gets in the way of

01:00:31

things um

01:00:33

but also it's the constant juggling in

01:00:34

your head and

01:00:36

and and that and then suddenly you think

01:00:37

oh i've been focused on that for a bit

01:00:39

and it's it's more work um so i would

01:00:42

like to be more focused i want to get

01:00:44

interested at a level where i feel as

01:00:45

i'm able to make a positive difference

01:00:47

to it um and that means that means

01:00:49

actually a smaller number of a smaller

01:00:50

number of things i had a job when i was

01:00:52

at university and the most boring job

01:00:54

ever it was a it was transcribing

01:00:56

license details it was working for a

01:00:57

ford dealership transcribing license

01:00:59

details from one ledger to another

01:01:01

and i'd get to about 10 o'clock in the

01:01:03

morning

01:01:04

physically it was it was so boring it

01:01:05

was physically painful and i would i

01:01:07

would i would think surely it must be

01:01:08

five o'clock it's not it's still ten

01:01:10

o'clock in the morning and it was

01:01:11

horrible absolutely horrible and and the

01:01:13

one thing i look back at my life but

01:01:15

it's one of the the greatest things is

01:01:16

i've never i've always got to five

01:01:18

o'clock wishing it was two o'clock

01:01:20

um and uh and that's that's i think a

01:01:22

sign that that you're not bored um

01:01:25

and there's the stuff i'd like to be

01:01:26

doing like i look for i wake up on

01:01:28

monday morning i think fantastic i can

01:01:29

get stuck in and i can do stuff and so

01:01:31

but that idea of that idea of of

01:01:34

there not being enough hours to do to to

01:01:36

get the stuff done is is a sign that

01:01:38

it's enjoyable the ones that don't like

01:01:40

what they do you know because i've

01:01:42

worked jobs outside call center night

01:01:44

shifts for you know just pick up the

01:01:46

phone book the hotel for them because

01:01:47

they can figure out how to use the

01:01:48

computer yeah yeah you know for dorothy

01:01:50

yeah she doesn't know where she wants to

01:01:51

stay she wants to stay in manchester

01:01:53

doesn't know where manchester you know

01:01:54

night shifts of doing stuff like that

01:01:55

i've had worse jobs as well where i had

01:01:57

to open the yellow pages and just call

01:01:58

someone and try and sell them something

01:02:00

um which was awful um but what is that

01:02:03

what liberates people from that place i

01:02:05

i mean i would maybe guess that it's

01:02:06

information and maybe skills so maybe

01:02:09

they could

01:02:10

the other thing is when you've got one

01:02:12

of those jobs

01:02:13

you take the view look i've got an

01:02:15

opportunity to learn how this to learn

01:02:16

how this works if i learn how this does

01:02:18

work works but take it seriously do it

01:02:19

well um then

01:02:21

actually i might know what it takes to

01:02:22

become a supervisor um if you become a

01:02:23

supervisor i might have then what it

01:02:25

takes to go up to to go one notch higher

01:02:27

and suddenly i'm actually then managing

01:02:28

people and and and that's a little bit

01:02:30

more interesting than what i was doing

01:02:32

so to some extent you have the control

01:02:33

to be able to sign how much time and

01:02:35

effort enthusiasm you put into it and

01:02:36

there's some jobs that will not be that

01:02:37

interesting but then then then say to

01:02:39

yourself right what can i learn about

01:02:40

doing doing this that's going to enable

01:02:41

me just to do my bosses job um and and

01:02:45

actually what your employers will be

01:02:46

looking for is someone who's applied

01:02:47

who's interested and they'll look

01:02:48

amongst the 10 people who are doing that

01:02:50

job and think nine out of 10 of those

01:02:51

people are just doing this because they

01:02:53

want to pay the bills this one is

01:02:54

genuinely trying to work out how to do

01:02:55

the job better

01:02:56

i've got one last question for you yeah

01:02:58

never asked this question before but but

01:02:59

it feels like i should you're you know

01:03:02

you're you know several years ahead of

01:03:03

me in business right so you've

01:03:05

experienced a lot more than me you've

01:03:07

had a child you've gone through you know

01:03:10

even dragon's den you've been through

01:03:11

that experience as well and had a taste

01:03:13

of all of that you know um attention

01:03:16

and um

01:03:17

uh

01:03:18

press and all that stuff

01:03:20

what would be the one piece of advice

01:03:21

you'd give to me

01:03:23

it can be relating to anything it's just

01:03:25

you you know maybe what's something that

01:03:26

you think

01:03:27

i need to learn or know based on me

01:03:30

being on 20 you know 28 29 now

01:03:33

i think i've just left my companies just

01:03:35

hold my shares a little bit yeah um

01:03:38

as you go as you go through

01:03:40

you can get to a point where you think

01:03:41

right i've had a huge success and i look

01:03:43

at moonpick and think will i ever have a

01:03:44

success as big as moonpig i don't know i

01:03:47

don't know but i've got to be okay with

01:03:48

that

01:03:49

and in order to be happy i have to be i

01:03:52

have to be okay with the idea that i may

01:03:53

never i may never better that

01:03:55

because if if you're always constantly

01:03:57

thinking right i've done that i

01:03:58

therefore have to do that it can be

01:04:00

recipe for misery and like

01:04:01

like you look at pop stars who who have

01:04:03

a huge career and then

01:04:05

and they're kind of done by 25 and

01:04:07

actually you know you know that they're

01:04:08

not going to quite come back and and

01:04:10

then a couple years later

01:04:12

and and so i look at it and i think well

01:04:14

i don't have to better what i did in

01:04:16

terms of i don't i'm not going to judge

01:04:17

myself by having a business that was

01:04:19

worth more than moonpig because actually

01:04:21

that's setting myself on almost

01:04:22

impossible task what i'm going to do is

01:04:24

make sure that whatever i do i feel as

01:04:26

though i was being

01:04:27

i feel as it was useful

01:04:30

um and some of this might not be as

01:04:32

obvious or as prominent as

01:04:34

setting up moon pig because sometimes

01:04:36

you catch a wave and i look at moon pig

01:04:37

and i think

01:04:38

did i just catch a wave i was in the

01:04:39

right place at the right time i i had a

01:04:41

good idea and i managed it well but

01:04:42

actually i had it you know i just caught

01:04:44

that wave perfectly and sometimes you

01:04:47

that that that can be hard to break to

01:04:49

to to recreate

01:04:51

um so

01:04:53

so i think being

01:04:54

managing your own expectations is uh is

01:04:57

is is a

01:04:58

uh is an important part of human

01:05:00

happiness um and and thinking okay i may

01:05:02

never better that but actually i'm gonna

01:05:03

do something different now and that will

01:05:05

be just as interesting it'll be just as

01:05:06

rewarding as as as as

01:05:09

as what i did before do you ever regret

01:05:11

so like with with my company um i think

01:05:13

i left in 2019 when the valuation was

01:05:15

maybe 200 million i think now it's like

01:05:17

500 yeah and it's probably going to go i

01:05:19

shouldn't

01:05:20

i'm guessing here okay i'm not involved

01:05:22

in the company anymore i'm probably

01:05:23

going to go to a billion i reckon yeah

01:05:25

um

01:05:26

do you ever regret moon pig is now worth

01:05:27

what one point something

01:05:29

1.1.6 well i i for for a long time i

01:05:34

said eight years after i saw the when i

01:05:35

sold the business it was making about 11

01:05:38

12 million pounds profit

01:05:39

not not ebitda proper profit like money

01:05:42

you could spend um and um

01:05:45

and eight years later it was making

01:05:47

about 18 million so i think yeah it was

01:05:49

an improvement on where on on where it

01:05:50

was but it wasn't so spectacular that it

01:05:52

was um so that they're happy with their

01:05:53

deal uh and i'm happy that i've got the

01:05:56

chance to go off and do something else

01:05:57

um and then i looked at floating and

01:05:59

think well because the thing about

01:06:00

floating is that nobody knew we were

01:06:01

going to have covered and and um and

01:06:04

that obviously massively boost uh

01:06:06

boosted the business and i think

01:06:07

property has permanently put more people

01:06:09

on online so that was a fairly

01:06:11

unpredictable uh part of it then there's

01:06:13

another question which is if i had

01:06:15

stayed in running that business would it

01:06:17

have done as well as it has and i don't

01:06:18

know that it would have done to be if

01:06:19

i'm really honest because the guys who

01:06:21

came afterwards a guy called stan ron

01:06:22

who came into moon big after me um who

01:06:25

was

01:06:26

awesome i mean he was a you know

01:06:28

brilliant um and then and then and that

01:06:30

then nicole rytha who's running it now

01:06:32

is has just taken it to another level so

01:06:34

we're going to take where he came in and

01:06:36

he's just so and

01:06:38

so so i i i'm not sure that i would have

01:06:40

done i'm not sure had i stayed in

01:06:42

there's no guarantee that it would have

01:06:43

done what it what it did and in fact

01:06:46

i'm not sure it would have done

01:06:47

so you know i and actually i've had some

01:06:50

done some really interesting things so

01:06:52

if you're asking me the question would i

01:06:53

rather have had sort of 36 percent of

01:06:55

1.6 billion yes

01:06:57

what i'm questioning is whether we would

01:06:59

have got there if i'd remain in the helm

01:07:01

well listen nick thank you so much for

01:07:02

your time it's been an incredibly

01:07:03

interesting diverse conversation and

01:07:05

yeah um thank you as well for uh you

01:07:07

sent a text message i think to

01:07:09

our mutual friend before i went on the

01:07:11

show just giving me oh yeah

01:07:12

yeah and he passed that over to me and i

01:07:14

i yeah i kept that in mind i won't show

01:07:16

what that advice was

01:07:18

i kept that in mind and um yeah i mean

01:07:20

your story is super inspiring and

01:07:21

there's a british success story and

01:07:23

someone that's so

01:07:24

i'm so fascinated by you because you're

01:07:26

so unorthodox in so many ways and you

01:07:28

also don't [ __ ] so a lot of people

01:07:30

it's tempting to portray yourself even

01:07:32

with the last example there you could

01:07:33

have said well you know you basically

01:07:35

said that you're you're unsure whether

01:07:37

the business would have performed better

01:07:38

or worse without you i think that takes

01:07:39

great humility and self-awareness to

01:07:41

admit that and that's the reason why i

01:07:42

started this podcast because you know to

01:07:45

share some of that honesty with the

01:07:46

world so thank you for coming on thank

01:07:48

you for being an inspiration to me thank

01:07:49

you for being one of my favorite dragons

01:07:50

as well you're just very real and funny

01:07:52

thank you it's good to have a real sense

01:07:53

of humor well it's been a real it's been

01:07:54

a real pleasure meeting him in person so

01:07:56

um brilliant superb and um yeah

01:07:58

hopefully we'll get you back again once

01:07:59

uh to talk more about your charity in

01:08:02

particular which i wish we had more time

01:08:03

to yeah to talk about because that's

01:08:04

that was super inspiring to read about

01:08:06

as well

01:08:06

um but yeah thank you thanks nick great

01:08:23

[Music]

01:08:33

you

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Episode Highlights

Decisiveness and Risk
Nick discusses the importance of decisiveness and a healthy attitude towards risk in entrepreneurship.
“Decisiveness is a very important trait for entrepreneurs.”
@ 02m 55s
September 13, 2021
The Myth of Unique Ideas
Nick emphasizes that successful businesses often don't need to be unique; they just need to be better.
“You don’t have to be unique; you just have to be better in some respect.”
@ 13m 40s
September 13, 2021
Struggles of Starting a Business
Starting a business is tough, especially finding customers. The speaker shares their journey from 2000 to 2005.
“Getting customers is probably the single most difficult thing about setting up any online business.”
@ 16m 20s
September 13, 2021
The Power of Viral Marketing
The speaker discusses how the viral effect of their product kept their business afloat during tough times.
“The viral effect was the thing that kept us going for five years.”
@ 17m 40s
September 13, 2021
Understanding Customer Needs
The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding what customers want in a product to succeed.
“A card is about showing someone that you’ve thought about them.”
@ 22m 12s
September 13, 2021
The Reality of Entrepreneurship
Entrepreneurship isn't about sleepless nights and ramen noodles; it's about focus and balance.
“It isn’t an essential part of the journey.”
@ 34m 00s
September 13, 2021
The Importance of Communication
Effective communication is crucial for success in business, whether through speaking or writing.
“I can't think of a more important skill in life and business than sales.”
@ 37m 46s
September 13, 2021
Lessons from the Dragons
The diverse expertise of the dragons provides invaluable insights into business analysis and strategy.
“Sometimes you just gotta let them interrogate the business from all of their angles.”
@ 44m 43s
September 13, 2021
The Anti-Climax of Selling
Selling a business can feel like a non-event, lacking the expected fanfare.
“It's a bit of a weird anti-climax selling.”
@ 47m 17s
September 13, 2021
The Joy of Learning
True fulfillment comes from the learning process, not just financial success.
“Happiness comes from the process of building a business.”
@ 54m 11s
September 13, 2021
Opportunity to Learn
Every job can be a chance to learn and grow, even if it's not ideal.
“You take the view, look, I've got an opportunity to learn.”
@ 01h 02m 15s
September 13, 2021
Managing Expectations
Understanding that you may never surpass your past successes can lead to happiness.
“Managing your own expectations is an important part of human happiness.”
@ 01h 04m 54s
September 13, 2021

Episode Quotes

If you’re frightened of ever making a mistake, then you won’t do it much.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97
I could see where the numbers were going.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97
Creative genius always comes at a price.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97
Sales is just everything to me.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97
I think it's better to be driven by passion than demons.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97
You take the view, look, I've got an opportunity to learn.
Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97

Key Moments

Business Philosophy06:15
Business Sacrifice32:24
Focus on One34:21
Communication Skills37:45
Lessons Learned45:39
Philanthropy Focus49:56
Learning Journey54:11
Expectations Management1:04:54

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