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This is how social media starts roping you in. This is how politics starts roping you in. This is how cult leaders
00:00:06
will recruit you into a cult. It's the number one way that we influence another
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human being. Micro compliance. And hypnosis is a great example of this. Like I can have a person laying on the
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floor unconscious in maybe a minute and a half. And it's very easy to do. Anybody can learn to do it. But one of
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the things you'll see me do at the beginning of that is like give me your hand, put both hands out like this, and
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then flip them over. You look all the way up and look all the way down. I make them do like 50 things. None of the
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things that I just did with them are meaningful. Everything was micro compliance. And you don't realize that
00:00:36
you're going through massive amount of compliance in order to get your behavior
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to change or influence another human being. Use what works for brainwashing because our brains have not developed
00:00:46
one more wrinkle in the last 200,000 years. So a regular example of this is novelty. Anything novel hijacks our
00:00:54
brain. So if you're trying to change your beliefs or you want to lose this weight, change something up in your
00:00:58
life, change your wardrobe, repaint the walls in your office, you need to tell the animal part of our brain here
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because this has been proven on fMRI studies that the decision shows up before we're conscious of it. What about
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humanto human skills? So people are starving to have great conversations that are very influential, which means
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that if I'm an attorney, I can sway a jury. If I'm a hostage negotiator, I
00:01:19
save people's lives. If I'm a parent, I raise better kids because I can communicate in a way that gets the
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outcome that I'm looking for. And you can do that with any of these techniques
00:01:27
like negative dissociation, the childhood development triangle. There's this thing called the PCP model. And
00:01:32
when it comes to influencing human beings, that is the most important thing that you could ever understand.
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>> That might just be the most important skill in the world. So, let's do some
00:01:40
role playing. >> All right, guys. I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant
00:01:47
subscriber milestone on this show. And roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:01:54
whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:01:57
ever done anything for you, giving you value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so
00:02:03
much to myself, but also to my team because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And
00:02:07
it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show
00:02:10
a little bit better every single week. So that's a favor I would ask you. And
00:02:15
um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down. And we'll continue
00:02:18
to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the
00:02:24
world. And uh yeah, let's do this. Chase, the world is changing rapidly before our eyes on so many fronts in
00:02:35
terms of geopolitics, but also in terms of technology with this whole AI thing that's rapidly accelerating. And with
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that, you've got things like robotics that are on the way and Elon Musk saying
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that we'll have 10 billion humanoid robots in the world in the future. And these are going to be intelligent robots
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because the software within them is now artificial and it's incredibly intelligent. One of the things people
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say to me a lot is in a world where we're going to have all this intelligence, what jobs are going to
00:03:02
remain? And one of the points of consensus from interviewing all these great AI experts is that human skills,
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any skills that are irreplaceably human, social skills, people skills are going to be of extreme value. You spend a lot
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of time teaching people these skills. I asked you a question just before we started recording. The question I asked
00:03:23
you is, what is the thing you like talking about the most that you think adds the most value to people? What did
00:03:28
you say? helping people understand how to guide human decision and and have great conversations that are very
00:03:36
influential. >> What does that mean in in real specific practical terms? >> It means that if we are in a
00:03:43
conversation, I become more likely to help you achieve the outcome that I see for you. So, if I'm a leader, then I can
00:03:51
do that. If I'm an attorney, I can sway a jury. I can make a jury pick a certain
00:03:56
decision. If I'm a hostage negotiator, I save people's lives. If I'm a parent, I
00:04:01
raise better kids because I I can communicate in a way that gets the outcome that I'm looking for from
00:04:07
another person. That might just be the most important skill in the world. I think it is increasingly so in a world
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of AI where computers are going to be able to handle a lot of the sort of intelligent white collar related stuff
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for us and we're going to be rendered useful only for that which humans can do, which is probably this stuff.
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>> Yeah. the IRL in real life, humanto human stuff. >> And I think people are starving for it.
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You've got a podcast that's non-performative and people are attracted to realism.
00:04:37
There's so much that's artificial and performative that people are starving
00:04:40
for realism already. And this is pre- AI. This was starting to blow up because it just gave us a sense of something
00:04:47
that was real. We are in a epidemic right now of loneliness where people are disconnected from each other and these
00:04:55
human skills are going to matter more than ever as AI comes out. I >> I was thinking about what you teach in
00:04:59
terms of human behavior and getting the best out of people and influencing people to do what you want them to do.
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And um AI does a lot of that. >> It does. It seems like it's been programmed to understand human behavior
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and to get me to like it. So let's get into some of that human behavior that
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you think is critical in a world of AI. In a world of AI, if the skills that matter the most are humanto human
00:05:26
skills, where does one where does one begin? Let's understand humans first. Like how
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could AI compromise a person? And when it comes to influencing human beings, the most important thing that you could
00:05:39
ever understand, whether you're a CEO, a mom, or dad, is this thing called the
00:05:44
PCP model. And PCP is a three-step cascade that happens inside the human brain when we get influenced. Whether
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we're doing something massively extreme like some manurian candidate type stuff
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or we we're just having a sales call and we we make a sale. Everything goes through PCP. So P is perception.
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So the first step to really changing somebody's outcome, getting you to make
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a decision later on is to change how you're viewing this situation. So when people talk about owning the
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frame of a situation or redefining what a situation means right there is changing the perception of it. If we're
00:06:26
just talking about AI AI can say yes uh Stephen I see what you mean and I can see why you're frustrated and you know
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one of those like standard responses but here's what's here's what this is
00:06:37
really about and it gives you this layer that makes you say oh [ __ ] like this is
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it's going deep. So now it's hit the P on the PCP model. So it's modified your
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perception of a situation. And how has it specifically done that there? Is it because it's acknowledged my point of
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view but then given a new one? >> Yes. >> So if it just given me a new one, I
00:06:58
might not have believed it. But because it first acknowledges my point of view before delivering it a different one,
00:07:04
that's more effective. >> Yes. So, and the biggest mistake that people make with language is language
00:07:10
should be resonating and not directing. If you want to speak well, you're not
00:07:16
directing people to think certain things or to feel certain things. It should resonate with what they're already
00:07:21
feeling and then start guiding them. So, you're getting into their river, so to
00:07:26
speak, and flowing with that first. Okay. So, let's let's do some role playing.
00:07:31
>> All right. I say to you, Chase, I think the sky is purple. Your job is to carry out the perception
00:07:39
shift. >> Yeah. >> What would you say to me? >> So if somebody says something that is an
00:07:45
idea that's far out there, I'll always acknowledge it. And I would say like
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every human being is different. And it's fascinating how many rods and cones we
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have in our eyes, how we all perceive things differently. And it's amazing when you see one thing that you might
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see something that's purple and I see the exact same thing. We may be seeing
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the identical color, but our brains are just interpreting it differently. Or maybe we have a different word for it.
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And it's amazing how much we agree on and we just don't realize how much
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aligned we are with a a situation in life. Does that make sense? >> Mhm. >> So, I've never I've never had to respond
00:08:22
to somebody calling this guy purple, but if I can modify how you perceive a situation. So, let's say we're at a
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business networking event and I walk up to you and I say, let's say I call out
00:08:34
the script, openly call out the script and I say, "It's it's amazing how many
00:08:38
people are just running the script of I need to look like a business professional. I can't say anything that
00:08:44
makes me look emotional. I can't say anything that's personal. I have to hand
00:08:48
out a business card. I have to like put on this persona." So, I'm just openly
00:08:52
saying the script that's running inside that person's head and I'm making you
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aware of it, which means that I'm changing your perception of the situation. So, anything I can get you
00:09:02
aware of that's running inside of your own head, I can massively start transforming your behavior. And we'll
00:09:08
get to identity here in a minute, but any script that you call out, you're weakening its power. Ah,
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>> so like if you shook my hand super aggressively or somebody shook my hand
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like a like a pretend alpha male and you call out exactly what they're wanting to
00:09:24
happen and you say, "Wow, that handshake is really firm. I just read an article a
00:09:29
few weeks ago that only alpha males do that and you say the quiet part out loud." So any script that's running in
00:09:37
the background or some kind of social script, if I can surface that, then I become a lot more powerful over the
00:09:44
situation because I've lessened the power of a script. Any script that we push down is going to be a lot more
00:09:52
powerful in that person. We're increasing power >> on that example of the Matt very, you
00:09:57
know, over the top handshake by calling it out. What have you done? What have you done in my head? So, I' I'm the one
00:10:04
that's just squeezed your hand really tight cuz I want to be an alpha male. >> You call it out. What What does that do?
00:10:10
It It disarms me or it makes me feel great or >> No. And and and I'm not saying that
00:10:15
that's a tactic anybody should do, but if there's a script running here, like
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here's what we're supposed to do. You and I are on a podcast. We're supposed
00:10:22
to make eye contact with each other. We're supposed to nod throughout this entire thing. I'm making both of us more
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aware of this. >> And that gives us a little permission to break away from it.
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>> Oh. To break away from it. Yeah. So, your desire to be the alpha male in the
00:10:36
handshake situation would be temporarily kind of broken because I'm openly saying
00:10:41
out loud what you didn't want to say out loud. >> Oh, okay. >> Does that make sense?
00:10:45
>> Oh, okay. So, you're like kind of calling it out but without it being
00:10:48
>> without making fun of >> aggressive. Yeah. Okay. >> So, after I shift your perception, I all
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I need to do is get you to see a situation a little bit differently. And if you turn on the news, oh my god, are
00:11:01
you going to see this all day, every day, the perception changes. Oh, you thought it was about this. Guess what?
00:11:07
Here's what they did today. And they did this blatantly and now it's in your
00:11:11
face. They do all of this stuff to shift your perception. And in order to get your behavior to
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change, once I shift your p perception, then I change the C in the in this model. And the C is context.
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And context is the most important thing in the world. And nobody's talking about
00:11:32
it. Probably everyone watching this or listening to this right now is going to get naked today.
00:11:39
They'll get in a shower. They'll get in a bath. Whatever it is, but some almost
00:11:44
everybody's going to get naked. We're probably not going to do it in the
00:11:47
middle of an office building like at work. Context dictates what behavior is permissible. So, if if you go back to 19
00:11:56
I think it was 1957, there's this guy running a stage hypnosis like comedy show, you know,
00:12:03
where they bring people up on stage and make them do silly stuff. And one of the guys that's up on stage, he's
00:12:10
knocked out and he's doing all this crazy stuff. He's an offduty police officer, so he's concealed. He has a
00:12:17
concealed handgun. But one of the skits in this or one of the bits that this comedian does, he
00:12:24
tells the people that all of you are sheriffs and you can't leave the stage,
00:12:28
but everybody in the in the audience right here is rowdy. They're making lots
00:12:32
of noise. You need to tell them to keep it down. So, this starts and the hypnotist says, "Now they're they're not
00:12:40
even listening to you. They're not respecting you." And then he says, "They're they're you can't leave the
00:12:45
stage, but one of them's pulling out a gun." Then this offduty police officer
00:12:49
pulls out his service weapon and starts firing into the crowd. >> This is a true story.
00:12:55
>> True story. >> Really? >> Yeah. But is he a monster? >> Of course not. Because context dictated
00:13:03
what he would do. So if I can change context to where what I want you to do is just an automatic thing, I can make
00:13:12
you do anything. The only the the real skill is just being able to shift perception and context. If you can just
00:13:21
shift perception and context, you can radicalize someone on the internet and turn them into a shooter. You can
00:13:28
radicalize somebody politically and make them excommunicate their entire family over a Thanksgiving. I'll give you an
00:13:35
example from UK. In in 19 in 1979, I think there was a fire in in Manchester in Wworth's department store.
00:13:43
>> Yeah. And it was during the daytime, doors were open and it turned out that
00:13:48
most of the people that died were in the restaurant and these the restaurant was
00:13:54
right by the door. So the fire inspector looked and they were trying to figure this out and a psychologist finally came
00:14:00
along and said they died because they were waiting to pay their bill cuz no one gave them permission to kind of
00:14:08
stand up and walk out. No one did it first. So they kind of just went along with the crowd. And in the context of a
00:14:16
restaurant, you don't stand up and walk out until you've paid your bill.
00:14:21
>> So the context can also lead us into something like that. So the perception
00:14:26
of the situation, even though there's a fire, I'm locked in context of I'm
00:14:30
sitting in a restaurant. And and that's been tested time and time again where
00:14:36
people will sit in a smoke fil room long enough to die just cuz nobody else is moving. So context matters. So how does
00:14:45
that pertain to being able to persuade people for like I don't know Debbie in Ohio.
00:14:52
>> Yeah. >> Who's listening? Yeah. >> How does she work and think about
00:14:55
context when she's in a sales meeting speaking to her husband, her son, whoever it might be?
00:15:00
>> Yeah. So, one of the best things that you can learn when it comes to being
00:15:04
able to shift context is setting the frame of what every interaction is and being the one to openly say what the
00:15:10
frame is as the conversation starts. Let's say you're talking to a kid and
00:15:14
it's a parent talking to a kid. The kid thinks they're in trouble. That's the
00:15:18
context they have and I need to shift their perception of our situation before I can change their context. Mhm.
00:15:24
>> So, we sit down, we start the conversation, and I'm like, I'm so glad
00:15:27
that we could have this talk in a calm way that is focused on learning instead of punishment.
00:15:35
A massively transformed perception and context. So, I've changed what this means and the definition of what's
00:15:42
allowed here. >> So, context gives us the final P, which is permission. So, if I change your
00:15:50
perception of a conversation and you can do that right away and if if I'm entering into a negotiation and we start
00:15:57
the room with, I'm glad that we could all come here for this and I know both
00:16:01
of us want to find common ground as fast as possible and I suggest that maybe we
00:16:05
even start there. So, I'm setting a frame right right from the very beginning. It's so surprising how few of
00:16:12
us do that when we go into a conversation. I was just thinking back over the last sort of 10 days of my life
00:16:17
in business meetings, very important business meetings in Los Angeles with new potential partners and walking into
00:16:24
the boardroom and sitting down and doing the like formalities of like, oh, hi. How's your weather? Like, how's the
00:16:28
weather? Where'd you live? Oh, fine. And then a little bit of quiet. We introduce
00:16:33
ourselves and nobody really sets the frame or someone sets the frame, but it isn't you.
00:16:38
>> Yeah. And actually that meeting would have been much more productive if I had
00:16:43
volunteered up a frame very early and it was a frame in whatever I'm trying to
00:16:47
get out of that meeting. >> Yeah. And anytime you're setting a frame or just kind of setting the perception
00:16:53
of what's going on, especially in business, start out by a negative first because people [ __ ] about stuff in
00:16:59
business all the time and then go to the positive. So you're doing kind of a
00:17:03
contrasting statement. So, like let's say in in the last meeting you had, if
00:17:06
you said something like, "I'm so glad we're meeting today, guys. There's so
00:17:09
many people out there that just fall into these competitive mindsets." >> Mhm.
00:17:13
>> Uh, and it's really good to do business with people that are in a collaborative
00:17:17
mindset instead of a competitive mindset. >> With what you said, the frame that I
00:17:22
wish I'd said based on the all of the the context was I'd walked into that
00:17:26
room wanting to get a deal done cuz I'm sick of [ __ ] talking about it on emails. Yeah.
00:17:29
>> And meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings. So, I wish I'd
00:17:32
walked in and said something words to the effect of, "I'm so glad we could
00:17:35
meet in person to finally really make progress on this because there's been so
00:17:39
much talk about theoretical deals and I feel like getting us together can get us
00:17:44
much closer, much quicker to figuring out >> a real deal that we can work on." Words
00:17:49
to that effect cuz I think that would have started the conversation away from the theoretical.
00:17:53
>> Yeah. >> If I just called it out. But unfortunately, I didn't say that and we
00:17:57
spent a lot of time just talking about theoretical stuff again. >> Yeah. And you can do that with
00:18:01
permission at the beginning with a permission phrase and just say, "Hey, just so I understand, and I may be I may
00:18:06
be wrong here, but what I understand is the purpose of this meeting is for us to
00:18:11
kind of compile all these Zooms that we've been on for months and months and
00:18:15
finally get something done and put a bow on it that we have some kind of finished
00:18:19
product. Even if it's not perfect yet, we have something tangible." >> And that's that's permission. So you're
00:18:26
like, "I might be wrong about this." But of course, they'll probably agree with
00:18:29
that. I think the same applies actually for romantic relationships. Thinking about having an argument with your
00:18:35
partner, you can go in just emotion versus emotion. If you don't take a minute to just
00:18:40
>> define >> define what we're trying to accomplish from this >> and then when people drift because they
00:18:45
do in emotional situations, you've got a frame to bring them back into that you
00:18:49
pre-agreed on, >> you know, cuz when you get those emot they'll bring up something your mother
00:18:53
did six, you know, four years ago or something you and it just drifts away from the frame.
00:18:58
>> Yeah. And if you watch the media, uh, especially the opinion side of the
00:19:03
media, they talk about a politician that they don't like, what do they start out
00:19:06
with? This is going to scare you. In another piece of terrifying news, here's
00:19:11
what this guy did today up on the stage. This politician did. So, they set the frame for it to be terrifying. They're
00:19:18
setting up your perception from the very beginning. And then if I if I change the
00:19:23
context in one context, yeah, maybe this politician's a bad guy. Another context
00:19:29
is this person is a threat to democracy. I've heard that phrase a lot. >> A lot. And that mean And what do we do
00:19:38
to threats to our entire democracy? We kill them. So we start radicalizing people instantly without them really
00:19:44
even processing that they're they're internalizing that. M >> we were radicalizing people just through
00:19:50
that context. So if you can modify perception and context, you can give someone that
00:19:56
permission, that final piece to do anything. Let's go back to the police officer in the hypnosis show. He had the
00:20:02
permission to start firing his firearm because of the context of being attacked by someone with a weapon.
00:20:08
>> Mhm. So once the context shift, your social permission of what I'm allowed to
00:20:13
do, like I don't strip down and get naked in my office, but I do when I'm
00:20:17
standing in front of a hot shower, that is the permission to do things differently. So if you want someone to
00:20:24
do something that they normally wouldn't do, the question you ask yourself is, in
00:20:29
what context would the decision I need this person to make be an automatic thing? If we agreed on 10 different
00:20:37
things out of 11, then we the automatic thing would be for us to sign an agreement together.
00:20:43
>> Okay? >> Or if if I'm being shot at, the automatic thing for me is to draw my
00:20:48
weapon and and fire back. So it's an automatic behavior based that typically
00:20:54
in another situation would violate social permissions. Like I don't have social permission to to behave in that
00:21:00
way. >> I was reading about the story that you referenced. I think I found the one in
00:21:06
December 1923. The New York Times reported on it regarding a tragedy in Croatia where an Austrian hypnosist
00:21:12
ended up firing into the crowd and um killed three people and wounded several others before he was snapped out of his
00:21:22
trance. Upon realizing that he had done it, the officer reportedly arrested the hypnotist on the spot,
00:21:29
which is strange to >> That's called cognitive dissonance. >> Yeah.
00:21:34
Wow. Okay. So, PCP, I understand that. One of the things I was thinking about is, is there any way for my audience
00:21:41
listening now based on everything you know about SCOPS and the way that we're
00:21:44
manipulated with media, is there any way that we might be able to help them be more objective in a world that is trying
00:21:52
to force them into one frame or the other? because I'd, you know, as a podcaster, this is maybe a selfish
00:21:57
thing, I speak to so many different people and I'm going to speak to someone
00:22:02
on the right, someone on the left, up, down, left, right. I don't really as long as I think I'm going to have be
00:22:08
able to have a conversation with them. I'm going to meet them as I find them
00:22:10
and I'm going to have a conversation with them. And there's really no external pressure that's going to change
00:22:14
that. Yeah. Unfortunately, like I've I've had all the external pressure in
00:22:17
the world and I'm not going to change that because I have to do this myself for a long period of time. So my the
00:22:23
thing that's going to keep me in love with this job is to be able to follow my
00:22:25
curiosity and not be trapped by anyone else's pressure. But that requires your
00:22:30
audience as well to be open-minded. Which means that if I sit here with Kamala Harris or with Donald Trump, I I
00:22:37
want my audience to come into the conversation with as an open mind as they possibly are able to.
00:22:43
>> Let's talk about how to manipulate your next podcast guest into being more
00:22:47
open-minded. >> Okay. And this technique is something we teach called negative dissociation.
00:22:53
And the way that it works is I'll make a small, it should sound like an observation about the world. So in our
00:23:01
discussion, let's say we just sat down and I'd say, you know what, I'm I'm glad
00:23:04
I'm interviewing with you. There's a lot of people out there that are just so
00:23:07
closed off and locked in these little rigid beliefs. And I'm not sure whether
00:23:12
it is they're just terrified of what what people are going to think about them if they step outside the lines
00:23:18
>> or if they're scared of being open-minded for these other beliefs. I'm
00:23:22
not sure which one it is, but I mean you meet these people so often >> and you're going to nod. You nodded your
00:23:29
head while we were saying because what is what I'm saying sounds true >> and it probably is but you're making
00:23:36
that person very covertly agree that they are not that person. M. >> Does that make sense?
00:23:42
>> That makes perfect sense. >> So throughout the conversation, what
00:23:45
you're really doing is you're not getting them to make an agreement about
00:23:48
how they're going to act. You're getting them to make an agreement about who they
00:23:51
are as a human being. >> Mhm. >> So the moment you can get them to covertly make an I am statement in their
00:23:58
head, you're hacking your way into that person's identity. So like, let's say you said that, they
00:24:04
nodded, and then maybe a few minutes later you're like, I I got a confession
00:24:08
to make. I, you know, I had social anxiety growing up. How did you get this open about everything? Have you always
00:24:14
been this way or was this through some kind of like leadership training or something like that that you went to?
00:24:20
>> And the moment you answer that question, I've got you to commit. Now you're fully
00:24:25
committed uh to being wide open for the rest of the conversation. >> What would you assume they would then
00:24:30
say in such a scenario? >> They're like, "Uh, I don't know. I I
00:24:33
think I've always been really open. I I haven't been really scared about what
00:24:36
people think about me and I've always tried to wear my heart on my sleeve. So
00:24:40
now you're getting to make all these commitments >> that they're going to be like that going
00:24:44
forward. >> Yeah. Okay. I mean, you're not permanently changing a human being,
00:24:49
>> but it's a temporary change that they will make for one little compartment of
00:24:52
a of an interaction with you. And is this because you're really you're speaking to their you said their
00:24:58
identity, their sense of who they want to be. And that's heavily driven by social perception of what I think of
00:25:07
them. >> Yeah. Uh but it's not who they want to be. Uh it's who they say they are.
00:25:14
>> And those are different. >> So and man, Bob Chelini's got a great
00:25:20
example of this. They got these uh people to stick signs in their yard. These giant ugly signs that say drive
00:25:27
safe on them. And the way that they got this like 85% of this neighborhood to stab them into their yard, nasty, stupid
00:25:35
looking sign was a week prior, a week before they knocked on their door and they said, "Hey, I have a one question
00:25:41
survey. It'll take 15 seconds. Do you support safe driving? Yes or no?" Of
00:25:46
course, everyone's going to say yes. And then so now they've made a commitment
00:25:50
about who they are. Do you support? So it's who are you as a person? And they
00:25:55
said, "All right, thank you so much for that." And just to show your support,
00:25:59
could you put this tiny small sticker in the window of your house facing the street? And they're like, "Yeah, yeah."
00:26:06
And they go stick it on the window. But they're more likely to do it because
00:26:09
they just said yes. But anyone who said, "Yes, I support safe driving a week later would stick that giant
00:26:17
stupid looking sign in their front yard." And the and they double blinded this. They did it in another
00:26:24
neighborhood where they didn't go door to door first. They just went door to
00:26:26
door and said, "Hey, can we stab this giant ugly sign in your yard?" And like
00:26:30
1% of people said yes, as opposed to like 85% in the other neighborhood. But it's a tiny agreement about who you are
00:26:38
as a person. So this is the power of precommitting. Getting someone to pre-commmit to something before you ask
00:26:44
them to do it. >> Yeah. >> And you get them to precommit in terms of their identity and who they think
00:26:49
they are and who they want to be. >> Yeah. But you're not getting them it.
00:26:53
I'm not using this technique to go to make you sign a contract. I'm using it
00:26:57
to just make subtle shifts in how you're behaving in our conversation. >> So if I wanted you to focus on me more,
00:27:03
>> I'd do the opposite of the negative dissociation thing. And remember, I'm
00:27:06
not talking about you because if I'm sitting here saying, "Oh, Stephen, you
00:27:10
pay attention so well in a conversation." That sounds super weird and manipulative.
00:27:16
>> People say that to me all the time. >> Yeah, maybe they want maybe they want
00:27:20
you to. In reality, if I do the opposite of what that negative dissociation statement did, and I I make a positive
00:27:28
group of people and assign an attribute to them. So, that's how you would do
00:27:32
this. So, it's like, you know, Stephen, it's amazing. Every time I meet these
00:27:36
really high performing CEOs, all of these Fortune 100 companies that I work with, you sit down with one of these
00:27:42
CEOs, it's like they all have the exact same quality. You sit down with these
00:27:46
people and they stop what they're doing and they just completely tune in to other people when they talk to them.
00:27:54
>> So, I'm taking a quality that I know you admire, like CEOs, all this kind of
00:27:59
stuff, >> and I'm assigning a trait to that. and you're going to nod and you're going to
00:28:05
that sounds kind of true but it also means that you're agreeing that you are
00:28:09
also that type of person >> but I'm never saying it about you. So this is if I'm talking directly about
00:28:16
you which is what so many influence people teach out there like oh I can tell that you this or I can tell that
00:28:22
you're the kind of person that blank and blank and blank. This is called aiming
00:28:26
language. my ang my language is aimed at you and you can feel it and people can feel that there's something going on if
00:28:34
there somebody's sitting there making guesses and weird assumptions about them. So anytime you're using any of
00:28:40
these techniques, it should feel and sound like you're making an observation
00:28:45
about the world. It's interesting how the sort of power of pre-commitment can
00:28:50
also be used on yourself to get you to do things. >> Yeah. >> As you were saying, I was looking down
00:28:55
at some research here. Then there's multiple studies that I find fascinating. One of them is a study
00:28:59
conducted at MIT with students. Um they gave these MIT students three major papers for their semester. One class was
00:29:07
given ultimate freedom. They could turn in all three papers at the very end of the semester with no penalty. The other
00:29:12
class was forced to pre-commit to strict, evenly spaced deadlines throughout the semester. And the
00:29:18
students who had total freedom performed the worst and experienced the most stress. the students who pre-committed
00:29:24
to certain deadlines produced the highest quality work and gave the best work and got the best grades. It proved
00:29:30
that intentionally restricting our own future choices through pre-commitments is often the best way to beat
00:29:35
procrastination. And I remember the study they did with people on a beach where they had a fake thief run past
00:29:41
someone next to you on the beach and on the beach and grab a radio and 20% of people would chase the person. But if
00:29:47
someone had said to you uh in a different study where someone runs up, grabs the radio, but someone has said to
00:29:53
you seconds earlier, hey, I'm just going to get an ice cream. Can you can you
00:29:56
take a look? >> Can you just watch my stuff? 95% of people would then chase the person
00:30:01
stealing the radio because we've made a pre-commitment to another person. So
00:30:04
pre-commitments can work with yourself or, you know, with others, which is fascinating cuz especially to yourself.
00:30:12
I find that interesting that I can change my own behavior by making a pre-commitment attached to my own
00:30:17
identity. Um I guess there's one more I'll share which is this the study around savings.
00:30:23
They found that people who committed to saving even if they wrote on a piece of paper were up to five times in terms of
00:30:30
percentage terms. They went from saving 3% to saving 15% roughly 15% just because they' done a pre-commitment even
00:30:37
years earlier that they would they would save. That's beautiful. I love that. And and
00:30:44
you're kind of just pre-doing your own identity. And if if somebody wants to
00:30:49
master that, you make it about your social commitment to yourself, to other people, but publicly say like I am this
00:30:57
kind of person to yourself. So it's not like I'm the I'm going to go to the gym
00:31:01
tomorrow. It's I am the kind of person that goes to the gym is a much more powerful identitybased action. And
00:31:10
identity is the number one thing in the world when it comes to persuasion and influence. There's basically the way
00:31:18
that I teach this to intelligence people is when you're good at influence, you're
00:31:23
building two walls. One wall is anxiety and the other one is cognitive dissonance.
00:31:28
And the hallway that you're creating is the relief from those from those things.
00:31:33
>> What are those two things? So I know I know what anxiety is, but what's
00:31:36
cognitive dissonance? Well, the the anxiety is like if I don't do what I say, I'm going to have some so I'm going
00:31:41
to face social rejection or if I if I go here and I and I break this rule or I don't do this, I'm going to break a
00:31:49
social contract with somebody. The cognitive dissonance is I am the kind of person that does this and if I don't do
00:31:56
this, I'm not keeping with who I said I am and and who I agreed to be and I'm
00:32:01
facing cognitive dissonance. So that's like when some politician wins the presidential
00:32:08
election that someone doesn't like. Like you have that cognitive dissonance.
00:32:12
Either A I have to decide that wow a lot of people like this person or B everyone's stupid. And it's a lot easier
00:32:20
for me to just say everybody's stupid and we always take that path. So cognitive dissonance means that it's
00:32:26
bouncing them back into the hallway every time they bump up against something that they've previously agreed
00:32:30
to. And identity is the way that that you can hack your own behavior so fast. And the way that I explain this to
00:32:37
people, it takes 30 seconds to understand it. If you were an Olympic athlete and you had a a a badass body,
00:32:47
like you had a healthy diet, everything was in in perfect shape. You woke up every morning. You had great energy and
00:32:53
all that stuff. And one day you woke up for some reason and you're 295 lbs. and you wake up and you look in the
00:33:01
mirror and this something weird happened overnight, how fast would you get back to that
00:33:07
body? It would be lightning. You you may set world records for for weight loss because your identity is with that body.
00:33:17
It's not that, oh, I need to I want to lose this weight so I can be healthy.
00:33:21
It's this is not me. And anytime you're feeling this is not me or this is
00:33:27
against my who I am as a person, it's the most powerful motivator when it comes to influencing other people and
00:33:34
influencing ourselves and like a goal like a weight loss thing that I that I have a lot of my clients
00:33:44
do is to download the face app. There's like an app that'll make you look super
00:33:50
fat and real real obese and print it off and put it on your refrigerator. >> And then people are like, "Oh, well,
00:33:57
aren't I programming my subconscious to be fat?" Like, no. You're pro You're
00:34:02
programmed to go away from bad things first. Never to positive things first. It's always a way. Your ancestors live
00:34:09
because they mistook a a rock for a bear. Not the other way around. >> Yeah.
00:34:15
>> Never the other way around. >> Yeah. So, you're not going to accidentally program your brain, and I'm
00:34:20
I'm the brain guy, but put that on the fridge, and you start you start hacking
00:34:26
into your own identity, but you're doing it in a way that your mamalian brain,
00:34:30
the thing that runs the show, can see it and understands it instantly. There's no
00:34:35
words, there's no motivational phrases or anything like that. It picks up on it
00:34:39
instantly and starts setting a course forward because it's cognitive dissonance that you're creating for
00:34:43
yourself. I remember near Iel who I interviewed who wrote the book on like procrastination called indistractable
00:34:48
said to me a phrase that's always stayed with me. It's probably, you know, we
00:34:52
spoke for six, seven hours, I think me and Nia, there just this one phrase I always think about. He said that humans
00:34:56
are discomfort avoiding creatures and like we think that we're pleasure- seeeking creatures, but when he said
00:35:03
discomfort avoiding, I really like interrogated him. I was like, yeah, but what about like horniness that makes me
00:35:09
have sex? And he was like, well, actually that horniness is a form of discomfort. Your body is sending you
00:35:13
this sort of almost irritation which is making you take an action. And I stress tested it across many areas of my life.
00:35:18
I was like, actually, he's he's right. I I'm trying to avoid discomfort. And in
00:35:23
your example of seeing myself on the fridge, yeah, I I would I would want to avoid that. It would cause such
00:35:29
dissonance to my identity that I would do everything to avoid that. >> Some big ass fat Steven on the on the
00:35:34
fridge. >> Yeah. I mean, that's actually every couple of years. What gets me back in
00:35:38
shape is like catching myself in the mirror or because I'm always on camera.
00:35:43
Sometimes I don't see myself kind of getting out of shape and then I watch the podcast back and I'm like, "Oh,
00:35:48
fuck." >> Yeah. like Jack didn't tell me like no one's told me and then then I'm like
00:35:54
right gym every day again and >> uh interesting >> and it's social because you're I mean
00:35:58
you're making this commitment in front of a million people. >> Yeah. What else do you think is
00:36:03
important to know as we head into this AI world where human skills and people skills going to be more important than
00:36:07
ever. What what other frameworks have you got for me that I should bear in mind or or ideas
00:36:13
>> as we go into AI? your leadership style. Everyone's leadership style needs to be
00:36:17
front and center and I know there's a lot of books out there that are technically about leadership or but I
00:36:24
think they're about management and they call themselves a leadership book. When
00:36:28
I teach what's most important when it comes to understanding oursel is developing authority. Uh but that
00:36:33
authority has those five traits of authority. This is confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and
00:36:38
enjoyment. Do you do show notes where people can download stuff in the description?
00:36:43
>> Yeah, sometimes. I'll send I'll send this inventory to you where people can
00:36:46
take this quiz and it's it's the most revealing thing about your leadership
00:36:50
power. But what people tend to do is seek out the wrong type of authority. I've
00:36:57
learned this with 20 years of working with people. That we will tend to seek one of these little avenues that looks a
00:37:06
certain way because we think that's what leadership is supposed to look like.
00:37:09
That's what authority is supposed to look like. But there are three types and
00:37:14
the three types that I've broken them down into and how authority channels to
00:37:18
other people because authority looks different in different people. So it's the president,
00:37:23
the professor and the artist and we can have that authority. So like the artist you could think like somebody
00:37:31
like Johnny Depp, the president you can think of somebody like uh Obama. The professor, you can think of like the
00:37:38
classic movie professor. It still broadcasts authority, but it's not loud. It's not extremely directive. And the
00:37:45
artist can hold a ton of attention. >> Mhm. >> And in some rooms doesn't hold any
00:37:50
attention at all. The authority is still there. The attention isn't. For somebody
00:37:55
that's super calm, even if they're the CEO of a company, they might be the
00:38:00
professor and the whole time their idea of what leadership looks like is this president.
00:38:07
So they're faking their way into this thing and it never feels real. They still like even though their authority
00:38:12
is really high, they have this weird feeling of inauthenticity because they're pushing towards the wrong
00:38:17
authority channel. >> What's the cost of that? I think that it detracts from your level
00:38:23
of authority which automatically means that you're getting less outcomes that
00:38:26
you want in life >> because your inauthenticity to both others and yourself um like pays a toll
00:38:33
on you. So if I'm inauthentic to you then that's going to hurt my authority
00:38:36
but then if I'm inauthentic to myself it's going to hurt my happiness I guess.
00:38:41
>> Yeah. >> I'm going to feel like I'm again going back to your point about identity living
00:38:45
life. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think when people say authenticity, we should note that what
00:38:51
we call most people call authenticity is a costume of childhood beliefs. Like my
00:38:58
authentic self and how I act is typically what I was in childhood. How I deal with conflict, how I make friends,
00:39:04
how I stay safe, all these little patterns that I learned when I was eight or nine. I'm still repeating a lot of
00:39:09
that stuff. So when we say authenticity, it's always important to think that it's
00:39:15
authenticity plus a removal of ego and a willingness to receive social injury. And that's the best way that I've ever
00:39:24
been able to describe that to somebody. It's like if I'm being authentic in a
00:39:28
conversation, then I'm willing to receive a social injury for it. >> Cody Sanchez said something to me which
00:39:35
has stayed with me. She said, um, again, I'm going to butcher it, but words to
00:39:38
the effect of, "I won't be friends with anyone in private that won't say something in
00:39:44
public that will cost them something." And going to your point about social
00:39:50
injury, I think what Cody's actually saying is like that's how I know that
00:39:54
they're authentic is they're willing to risk something for something they
00:39:59
believe. >> Yeah. >> I also think this is how you know a brand's authentic. like are they willing
00:40:04
to cause social ind injury in the near term for something they believe in the long term.
00:40:09
>> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. And a lot of what a lot of the recent brand debacles that we've had is
00:40:19
they thought they were doing something to avoid social injury that caused a massive social injury
00:40:24
>> because people said you're not being authentic to your audience. >> Yeah.
00:40:28
>> Yeah. When they tried to do like get into identity politics and stuff like
00:40:31
that and >> Okay. like like extreme virtue signaling and stuff like that. Yeah.
00:40:36
>> Which backfires. >> Can we go into this childhood development thing really quick? Sure. I
00:40:40
think it's super important for people to know. Sure. >> And I'm I'm a behavior profiler and
00:40:44
>> if if anybody listening didn't know that. And one of the things that I teach
00:40:49
everybody is this thing called the childhood development triangle. So it's just three sides of this triangle. So
00:40:55
when you're growing up, what did that child have to do most of the time to earn and keep friends? So friends is
00:41:02
one. And then to feel safe. What did the kid have to do to feel safe? For some kids,
00:41:09
safety was like, I don't know, somebody gives me a hug at the end of the day. For some kids, it
00:41:14
was like, am I going to eat today? >> For some kids, it's like cracking jokes.
00:41:19
>> Yeah. And >> I'm going to crack jokes and keep friends. I'm going to feel safe by
00:41:23
becoming really loud and dominating the room. I'm going to become safe by getting really small and shrinking so
00:41:30
nobody notices me or I'm going to become safe by being hypervigilant because I
00:41:35
don't know if dad drank before he got home or if he's going to start drinking
00:41:38
when he got home. So it's like what did that child what are the scripts that
00:41:43
that child needed to run on autopilot to feel safe to make friends and then to get rewards and that would be the third
00:41:50
side and the rewards for some kids might just be like appreciation and it's typically just appreciation affection
00:41:57
love and that tends to get written in childhood and the kid who writes all these permanent scripts they put them in
00:42:07
a backpack and carry them all the way into adulthood. Yeah. >> And 90% of us are walking around with
00:42:13
this exact triangle governing our life. And if you look around at people at work, you see this woman who every time
00:42:21
there's a meeting, uh, she wants to speak up a lot, but then she shuts her mouth and her body shuts down and all
00:42:27
this kind of stuff. You're seeing an eight-year-old who got yelled at at a family dinner table.
00:42:32
>> That's all. But you're just seeing it in a grown-up body. I have two examples
00:42:36
that are super front of mind that completely align with what you've just said. I have two colleagues that I work
00:42:42
with and I got six months into working with one of them and I could always tell that there was something not quite right
00:42:47
because whenever I was in the room they would they would stare at me a lot and um they would be a little bit more on
00:42:56
the pessimistics pessimistic side than I'm used to. And one day at dinner, I
00:43:00
was talking to them about their childhood and they offered up that their dad was his mood could change rapidly
00:43:07
and he was always pointing out why something would never work and why and he was an extreme pessimist. And
00:43:13
suddenly this person who is in my life suddenly made sense. I completely understand it because you grew up in
00:43:18
that environment where to be safe >> um you >> agree with it >> had to pay attention to to the authority
00:43:25
figure and then yeah you had to also you learned maybe that you know pessimism was a way to safety yeah safety and then
00:43:34
there's another colleague who's actually in the room over there and I'll ask her
00:43:37
before we publish this if I can say this publicly but similar thing she she expressed to me that she had a dad that
00:43:42
was his mood would change rapidly and I said to her one day I said Um, I call her Sarah. I said, "Sarah, you're always
00:43:48
staring at me." Whenever I look at you, you're already looking at me and it's
00:43:52
like you're like overanalyzing and overthinking. And she explained to me the same thing. She said, "When I grew
00:43:56
up, my dad's mood would just change like this." So, every time I'm preempting,
00:44:01
I'm like a radical preempter. I'm thinking 20 steps ahead of like what might go wrong or, you know, which makes
00:44:07
her exceptional at her job. But I would, you know, you know, one might assume that that comes at some kind of cost.
00:44:12
>> Yeah. >> So, safety. Yeah. Very true. Very true. And the the way that I explain this, if
00:44:18
somebody wants to like it's not where you can kind of go back and like sit there for five minutes, put it on a
00:44:24
post-it note, and then figure your whole life out. I wish I had a cool a trick to
00:44:28
do that. But the way that like I want people to think about this is going back to your childhood, a lot of those
00:44:35
things, these are just contracts that were written in a child's voice. And when you start hearing these patterns
00:44:42
repeating in your head, force yourself to hear the voice of a kid. That's all
00:44:47
it is. It's just a kid who made these choices. It's not an adult. So, we're
00:44:53
typically three different people, all of us. We have a work self, like a professional kind of self. We have a
00:45:00
home self, and we have a self with friends. And what is that as a kid? That's
00:45:06
classroom, playground, home. So I'll typically take people through this process of where were you around
00:45:14
authority figures which is like classroom or home. What were you around when your all your friends were around?
00:45:19
You got made fun of or you had to become really small. And that that goes on the
00:45:23
friends side of the triangle and that that talks about how the social patterns that are going to show up for me. And
00:45:30
somebody says well I keep attracting these negative people into my life. Why do I do that? And that that goes to
00:45:36
these patterns because if I do this, I know this is going to happen. I know that's going to happen. It's just
00:45:41
completing a story archetype. So that's the childhood development triangle. And it is really powerful to
00:45:48
start understanding our own patterns. And I'm not saying that you can go out
00:45:52
there and there's like here's six steps that are going to change your whole
00:45:56
freaking life if you if you do these six things. The awareness is what you want.
00:46:01
You want massive like self-nowledge and and self-awareness >> uh with the side agreement of I am not
00:46:10
special and I'm completely okay if I am never understood because most of what
00:46:16
happens uh when we get into arguments with our spouse, we get into these [ __ ] arguments with people at at work,
00:46:23
it's our argument to be understood more than it is for us to come to a solution.
00:46:29
I need you to understand me. So getting okay with the idea that you might not never ever be understood is like step
00:46:36
number one. Number two, I am not special. And that that helps us to open the door
00:46:42
to start coming into a lot of these things. But if you if you're a leader at
00:46:46
work, you can start seeing these patterns in your employees and you can be like, I see an eight-year-old there.
00:46:52
And if you get to a point where you're seeing some of these a behavior that might have pissed you off in somebody
00:46:57
that works for you and you're like, "Wait a second. Now I can see exactly
00:47:01
what's going on because this, this, and this probably happened." You don't need
00:47:05
to make some prediction or fortunetelling thing about their childhood, but you're starting to see
00:47:10
these patterns and you know now how your team's going to respond in conflict. And
00:47:15
if they if it's a conflict and it's social, you're seeing all their friends
00:47:18
patterns. If it's a conflict and somebody might be losing their job, you're going to see their safety
00:47:22
patterns come out and you'll see your own. >> So, do you think I should go to the key
00:47:26
people in my life, maybe my team, and ask them these questions about around how did you make friends? Is that the
00:47:32
question? >> What did you do to make and keep friends? >> What did you do to make and keep
00:47:36
friends? And what was the safety question again? >> Like what what did you need to do or
00:47:41
avoid to feel safe? >> And the rewards one, >> what did you feel? And this one's always
00:47:47
you want to put the word feel in there. What did you feel like you had to do to earn rewards? And what were rewards to
00:47:52
you? >> Okay, >> it was appreciation. Or somebody that's like hyper significance driven, like,
00:47:57
I've got to have the Rolex, I've got to have the Ferraris, and all of this kind
00:48:00
of stuff. They never got rewards because their parents ignored them unless they brought home a certificate. Their
00:48:08
teacher called and said they did a good job. They played the piano recital and did a great job. And lots of people were
00:48:13
acknowledging them and clapping for them. They only got acknowledged when they were socially significant.
00:48:18
>> And am I right in thinking here that these are fundamentally interlin in many
00:48:21
ways? Because when you're talking about safety, I was running through my head
00:48:26
the things that made me feel safe and they were rewards >> that I could tell my friends about.
00:48:32
>> So I like I touched all three of them and part in part because we, you know, I
00:48:36
was thinking I was very different to my social group when I was younger. We were
00:48:39
a black family. There wasn't another black family that I knew of. um um other
00:48:44
than maybe one other kid I think in the area in Plymouth in 1994 or five. Um so some of the material things I wanted
00:48:51
like the the shoes that everyone had made me feel safe cuz they made me fit in. >> Y
00:48:56
>> and that you know and that got me friends. Y >> or at least I thought it did.
00:49:00
>> So like for me it really was like an interconnected triangle. >> Yeah.
00:49:03
>> That's just one of many examples that I could think of. it does tend to do that
00:49:07
and I will typically wait for somebody to figure that out and as they're filling it out they they're kind of like
00:49:12
oh I did this because of this to get to this >> and it you'll see a little cycle start
00:49:17
happening. >> Uh but it's great for self-nowledge but if you're a behavior profiler that's
00:49:22
what's going to run people. You're going to know how they're going to respond to
00:49:24
conflict. You're going to know what they're going to avoid. You're going to
00:49:28
like if you're putting teams together I know what people I want to have working
00:49:31
with each other. And it doesn't have to be some complex 9hour thing like you can
00:49:36
see this stuff in everyday life. And you're not saying that I need to radically change.
00:49:42
>> No. But what if one part of this triangle or one behavior I've learned
00:49:47
for safety or for rewards or for friends is making my life worse? >> Yeah.
00:49:53
>> You know what? It could be ruining my life. Like it could be the things
00:49:55
standing in the way of me having a romantic relationship or getting a promotion or building a business. It's
00:50:00
like getting in the way now. Yeah. What do I do, Chase? >> So, you you've identified the pattern.
00:50:06
Let's assume that you've you've got it. You're like, "Oh, I've got this [ __ ]
00:50:09
that's that's happening on repeat." The part two of this is I need to focus on
00:50:14
that being a kid that belongs to a child and I need to write down like this. Here's how that
00:50:22
child wrote the contract, made the promise to themselves, developed the contract. And then even if you make it
00:50:28
up like when let's I'm going to write down a little thing. When did this kid
00:50:32
bring it into adulthood? I need to stay small in order to stay safe. Let's say it's one of those
00:50:38
things. And then you just start telling yourself that is a child's voice. That's
00:50:43
a child's voice. So you the voice is not going to go away. That's the sad part.
00:50:49
That's like me you trying to not complete the sentence Mary had a little in your head. You can't get rid of it.
00:50:56
No matter how hard you try to delete that, it's repeated over years and years. Just like one of these things
00:51:02
that that what truly changes for you is hearing a child, hearing a misguided child who developed a coping mechanism
00:51:10
for the world, not knowing that they were like they just assumed, I'm going to have this
00:51:16
forever. I'm going to need this as an adult. I'm going to bring this into my
00:51:19
adult life. Part two of this is you make a like a wallpaper or something for your
00:51:25
desktop and we talked about being negatively uh motivated. We're away from negative things.
00:51:32
You make a like a motivational wallpaper that has your big limiting belief on it
00:51:36
and then take it to an extreme. I had a client that had this if I say small I'm
00:51:40
going to be safe. Uh and he was in a b like he owned a business but he wouldn't
00:51:45
go get these big clients and he wouldn't he wouldn't go do this. The guy's got
00:51:49
three kids and I said, "I want you to make a desktop wallpaper that says, "My
00:51:53
kids don't deserve for me to be successful. And I want you to look at it every
00:51:57
single day when you turn your computer on." Because that's exactly what your
00:52:00
belief is saying. Because if your kids truly deserved it, it would override the belief. So you
00:52:07
just need to write the belief in plain English. And what it's truly truly costing you in your life is my kids
00:52:12
don't deserve me to be successful. My kids don't deserve money. And that's
00:52:18
what it comes down to. And every day you look at it, you you have a feeling of disgust. And there's a hyper awareness
00:52:25
of that thing running in your head. You're going to be more prone to hear it
00:52:28
when it does come up. And you're also training yourself to hear it as a child's voice, which means you're going
00:52:34
to start hearing fiction. You're still hearing the same sentence, but you're
00:52:38
hearing a fictional story. There's two parts to this. I I love this, and there's two parts to it that I think I
00:52:42
wanted to talk about. The first is in doing so, in waking up in the morning and seeing my wallpaper that says like
00:52:48
my kids don't deserve a great life or whatever. Um, of course it's going to
00:52:52
motivate me to take action, which is then going to start to build new evidence once I take action, once I win
00:52:57
that big client and I realize that everything's fine, which is going to change my life. And then the second
00:53:02
point I wanted to point out is like people listen to podcasts like this and they write this stuff down and then they
00:53:09
have relapses and things don't change fast enough. And I think that can sometimes make them feel hopeless or
00:53:15
inadequate because they heard it on the diary of a sea or whatever and then they
00:53:19
did it for a bit and they struggled and it didn't quite work out and then they
00:53:22
went back to their old behavior. And I think in part this happens because we live under the presumption that this
00:53:28
stuff is easy and it's fast and that at some point in the future I can fix my
00:53:32
trauma. Like I think one of the best realizations I ever had was realizing that the [ __ ] that I've carried with
00:53:37
me in that backpack since I was a kid that the stuff about what will make me safe or what will reward me or how I'll
00:53:43
make friends or who I am or whatever my survival mechanisms they will be be with
00:53:48
me forever and actually instead of trying to delete them or like throw them out the backpack what I was able to do
00:53:54
yeah >> is like turn down their ability to make the decision. >> That's it. That's it.
00:54:01
You've totally got it. And and I would say this for anybody out there that you're trying to go through this and
00:54:08
you're having a hard time. I get it. It's totally tough. The number one way
00:54:13
that we influence another human being, let me just kind of metaphor this for one second. Uh when you watch a
00:54:19
hypnotist, and hypnosis is anybody can learn to do it. It's a it's a pretty easy thing. So,
00:54:25
it looks very dramatic, but one of the things you'll see me do at the beginning
00:54:28
of that is like go ahead and give me your hand and I'll hold their hand for a
00:54:32
second. Like, put both hands out like this and then flip them over. That's great. Now, just just to test your eyes
00:54:37
really quick. Look all the way up and look all the way down. Look all the way left. Look all the way right. All right.
00:54:42
Then, spread your feet a little further apart, a little closer together. Actually, no. Face this way. Now, I will
00:54:47
make them do like 50 things. None of the things that I just did with them are meaningful. None of them.
00:54:55
Everything was micro compliance. So this is how social media starts roping you in. This is how politics
00:55:02
starts roping you in. This is how cult leaders will recruit you into a cult. Micro compliance and you don't realize
00:55:11
that you're going through this massive amount of compliance. So like you go through a doctor's physical and they go
00:55:16
through like this 90point checklist. they've made you do 50 things and then they recommend a weird drug or they
00:55:23
recommend you get on some other drug, take some time to think about it because our brain it's hardwired for these micro
00:55:29
compliances. So I say this to say that if you're going through any of these things and you're trying to change your
00:55:36
beliefs or you're trying to change something in your body, use what works for brainwashing and figure out a way
00:55:42
that you can get micro compliance with your own goals on a very regular basis. small little wins. So your brain has
00:55:49
that just like hypnosis, just like cult recruiting, just like brainwashing, small little things at the very
00:55:55
beginning. So everything in influence should be looked at as a wedge. >> Everything.
00:56:03
>> It reminds me of that famous study they did where they got people to give
00:56:08
electric shocks to other people, the Mgrim obedience experiment. >> Yeah. and they managed to get a member
00:56:13
of the public to give another member of the public lethal electric shocks just through sort of micro compliance but
00:56:21
also through authority because the experimenters were like wearing white jackets, white overalls, etc.
00:56:26
>> And here's the second thing in that experiment that's going to going to
00:56:29
perfectly tie back to this. >> So this experiment that you're talking about happened at Yale University. It
00:56:34
was 1962. Uh, and we I mean there's tons of data on it, but essentially strangers would
00:56:41
shock another person seemingly or what they thought was to death just because some dude in a lab coat told them to.
00:56:48
But what they didn't account for, and even Dr. Mgram's book was called obedience to authority. They thought it
00:56:53
was all about the authority, the lab coat, the guy's tall. Uh, it's a professional setting. But really think
00:57:00
about if you go back to our ancestors like the most important resource to your ancestors was your was focus there's
00:57:09
nothing more important than focus and the number one way to generate focus and you because you if if I don't have your
00:57:16
focus I can't command authority right so focus is always first my focus authority
00:57:22
tribe and emotion those are the four things that govern a mammal all mammals dolphins doesn't matter so I have to
00:57:29
have focus before authority and they didn't talk about that. And the way to get focus is through novelty.
00:57:35
>> Novelty meaning something unexpected is occurring. So like if you walk past the
00:57:40
same bush every day 10,000 years ago and your job is to carry fish from the river
00:57:46
and suddenly you walk past that bush and you hear a big ass uh stick snap, all of your focus,
00:57:54
all of it is on that stick. Not it's not on your kids. It's not on your health.
00:57:58
It's not on anything that's going on. It's to this new unexpected piece of
00:58:03
information that hijacks our brain. Anything novel hijacks our brain. So if you see like and it follows that
00:58:11
pathway, focus, then authority, and then tribe, but what's everybody else doing?
00:58:15
And then emotion, then how do I feel about it? So it's and and what happens is we are hardwired to respond to these
00:58:24
things. You cannot decide not to respond to novelty. Your head turns to to loud sounds. All this stuff happens.
00:58:32
So the way that if if you're trying to do this like brainwash yourself is change your house up. Change something
00:58:40
up in your life. Change your wardrobe. Repaint the walls in your office. Move your furniture around. Buy a new car if
00:58:47
you if you can. I want you to like just imagine is how would I influence my dog in this situation?
00:58:56
I would need imagery. I would need something to shift. If I move the kitchen table to the side and move all
00:59:02
the furniture, when my dog comes out of the bedroom, he's going to know something's different.
00:59:07
>> Yeah. I think this is one of the great secrets of good marketing is that it
00:59:12
beats your brain's wallpaper filter. And um I wrote a little bit about this in my
00:59:17
last book about this idea of beating the wallpaper filter. I think we talked a little bit about it last time, but I
00:59:22
talked about a study where they got a rat and put it in a maze with chocolate at the other end of the maze. And they
00:59:26
looked at the rat's brain as it went through the maze the first time and they
00:59:30
saw that the rat's brain was like exploded with activity. It's smelling the walls. It's trying to figure it out
00:59:35
like and then they put the rat in the maze the second time and there's like almost no brain activity because it's on
00:59:42
autopilot. It knows the maze, so it doesn't need to use any of its cognitive
00:59:45
resources. Its cognitive resources can be allocated to new surprising things. The maze is no longer surprising.
00:59:51
Whizzes through the maze to the chocolate. And even like as you think about how you got out of your bed this
00:59:55
morning and got down to the kitchen, you didn't have to think. >> So you paid no attention. Yeah.
01:00:00
>> Um but you would have paid attention if you walked down there and your like sofa
01:00:03
wasn't there. >> Um and how does that then apply to marketing? So, like how do you surprise
01:00:07
people is like a central question of anyone who's trying to build a personal
01:00:11
brand, start a podcast or do marketing. Um, but I guess also to to persuade people. It's one of the things I think
01:00:18
about a lot when I talk on stage. >> Yeah. >> Is I know I'm competing with your mobile
01:00:24
phone, your Twitter feed, or your Tik Tok. So, I have to do something almost like every 10 seconds to like catch you
01:00:32
off guard. And Mr. Beast, I guess, is the great master of this. is probably why he's got half a billion YouTube
01:00:36
followers >> because the minute that video starts, >> yeah, you're hooked in.
01:00:42
>> You're hooked. >> But this I mean that's the power of novelty. I would challenge anybody to
01:00:47
take this challenge. If you're scrolling through short form content, watch for
01:00:52
something that like jerks your attention, like some kind of weird novelty thing that happens. And that
01:00:59
video is probably short 20 maybe 40 second video that that captures your focus through novelty. The
01:01:07
next video watch for an authority figure, a famous YouTuber, a celebrity, a politician, a pop singer who thinks
01:01:15
that they know politics, all that kind of stuff. Watch for an authority figure. Next, watch for a tribe signal. So, a
01:01:24
tribe signal is going to be here's how many people agree with this. Here's lots
01:01:28
of people doing one thing. These tickets are selling out. Here's the Taylor Swift
01:01:33
concert. Here's everyone cheering at the concert. Here's how you're supposed to
01:01:37
behave is basically what that means in the tribe section. You're supposed to do
01:01:40
what these people are doing. And then watch for the emotion. So, watch for this pattern. It'll be a focus
01:01:47
generating novelty. Then it'll be authority. Then you'll see tribe. Then
01:01:51
you'll see an emotional video. And guess what happens after the emotional video?
01:01:55
>> Wow. ad. >> Much of the reason most people haven't posted content or built their personal
01:02:01
brand is because it's hard and it's timeconuming and we're all very very
01:02:04
busy. And if you've never posted something before, there's so many factors in your psychology that stop you
01:02:11
wanting to post, what people will think of you, am I doing this right, is the thing I'm saying absolutely stupid. All
01:02:17
of these result in paralysis, which means you don't post and your feed goes bare. I'm an investor in a company
01:02:24
called Stanto, which you've probably heard me talk about. And what they've
01:02:27
been building is this new tool called Stanley that uses AI, looks at your feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks
01:02:32
at your history, looks at your best performing posts, and tells you what you should post, makes those posts for you.
01:02:38
You can also just use it for inspiration. And sometimes what we need when we're thinking about doing a post
01:02:42
for our social media channels is inspiration. Building an audience has fundamentally changed my life, and I
01:02:48
think it could change yours, too. So, I'm inviting you to give this new tool a
01:02:52
shot and let me know what you think. All you have to do is search coach.stand.store
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now to get started. I've had so many founders speak to me and say, "Why
01:03:01
didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?" Maybe the
01:03:05
copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is
01:03:08
they're not having the right conversation because that ad never reached the right person. And if you're
01:03:12
in B2B marketing, that is much of the game. And this is where LinkedIn ads solves that problem for you. Their
01:03:18
targeting is ridiculously specific. You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even
01:03:25
someone's skill set. And their network includes over a billion professionals.
01:03:29
About 130 million of them are decision makers. So when you use LinkedIn ads, you're putting your brand in front of
01:03:35
the right people. And LinkedIn ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend
01:03:40
across all ad networks in my experience. If you want to give them a try, head over to linkedin.com/dary.
01:03:47
And when you spend $250 on your first LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an extra $250 credit from me for the next
01:03:55
one. That's linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions apply. >> I heard you say something as well that
01:04:02
um if you want to persuade other people, you should make them feel clever. >> Yeah.
01:04:06
>> Explain this to me. >> I refer to this as maybe the most dangerous persuasion skill there is.
01:04:15
And what I'm the 10-second brief is I basically I'm going to put a Lego right
01:04:21
here on the table in front of you and I'm going to put another Lego right here
01:04:25
on the table in front of you and I'm just going to keep having the conversation to where eventually your
01:04:31
brain is going to be like, "Oh, I bet those things go together." So the idea
01:04:36
came from you. So I'm going to give you one piece of information and another
01:04:40
piece of information, but I will never put them together for you. And the reason is that any idea that you think
01:04:46
came from your own mind, you have no ability to resist it. So all I have to do is make you have an
01:04:54
idea. So a regular example of this is let's say you're watching the news and they
01:05:00
say uh local Austin woman has been reported missing. Neighbors said that earlier this day people saw her arguing
01:05:10
with her boyfriend. >> Oh yeah. details after the break. >> So, yeah.
01:05:15
>> And your brain is like, "Oh, I know what happened. Oh, I know exactly what
01:05:19
happened." But they make you feel clever. >> Yeah. >> They give you a piece of data and a
01:05:25
piece of data, but they don't tell you to put it together. >> The media do this all the time.
01:05:30
>> Yes. And if you can do this in a courtroom, it you it will be the biggest unfair
01:05:36
advantage you'll ever have in a legal standing because it'll win lots of
01:05:41
trials. The way that like if there's a formula on how to use this is here's a piece of
01:05:48
information here and it's a piece of information that you will absolutely agree with that makes sense to you and
01:05:55
another piece of information that makes sense to you. It it has to be two things
01:06:00
that that make sense to your brain because it's like you're not going to
01:06:04
experiment with something that you're not familiar with. So, two pieces of familiar information close enough
01:06:10
together where the brain is going to say, "Oh, you know what I can do? I'm
01:06:13
going to put those two things together." >> Isn't this how conspiracy theories take
01:06:16
hold as well? >> Oh, yeah. Cuz I, you know, Yeah. You know, there's a big um there's a big
01:06:22
enduring conspiracy theory that someone like Bill Gates has done things that are
01:06:27
nefarious as it relates to health. And like I guess the two pieces people are connecting is they're saying, "Well,
01:06:33
he's worked a lot. He's very rich and powerful and he's very very interested
01:06:36
in health, >> biotech, >> and and vaccines and all these other things." And and you know, someone very
01:06:44
very very very powerful. We often think of, you know, very powerful, successful,
01:06:47
influential people as being somewhat like evil or not having our interests at heart. And then someone who's spending a
01:06:53
lot of money on like health and medical side of things um is is quite an unusual thing. So we put
01:07:01
two and two together. We have you know we think they have bad intentions because they are a billionaire and that
01:07:05
word is you know comes with certain pre preconceptions and then health and then a pandemic happens and I think people
01:07:12
you know >> this is how I think a lot of conspiracies >> name a movie from when you were a kid
01:07:18
where the bad guy or where the super rich person in the movie wasn't the evil.
01:07:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean it's programmed into the media. It's a definite programming that was
01:07:31
very deliberate in our country. It's like always the rich people are evil. Uh
01:07:36
but then people will say, "Oh, well Tony Stark was rich. They made him a sociopath."
01:07:41
>> It's interesting because I think, you know, I can make the case that at some
01:07:44
point it's intentional. But at some point also, it becomes such a clear stereotype that you have to follow that
01:07:52
stereotype when you're like writing movies or else it doesn't make sense to
01:07:55
people. >> Yeah. And I'm not saying it was intentional within the last like 200 300
01:07:59
years. I'm we're talking about like the brothers grim >> uh ancient fairy tales
01:08:05
>> and it w I think it was intentional then like having wealth is bad. There's
01:08:09
virtue in poverty. That's the big thing they wanted to communicate to their kids. Poverty is virtuous.
01:08:16
>> And of course like we're we're still doing a lot of that stuff today.
01:08:19
>> But the reason is exactly what you're saying is correct. I think it's it's
01:08:24
burned into like some collective archetype. >> Yeah. >> Of of what stories have become
01:08:29
>> and we wouldn't recognize it. So like if I watched a movie and there was a very
01:08:33
successful billionaire businessman. All I have to say is that for you to fill in the gaps. You're thinking
01:08:39
private jet. You're thinking how they treat people. You're thinking, >> you know, they're on their phone with a
01:08:43
briefcase. You're thinking, you know, that they have what they're wearing. You
01:08:46
know what they're wearing. And I didn't say any of that stuff. >> Yeah. And you made me feel clever
01:08:51
because I put all that stuff together. M >> that came came from my own mind.
01:08:55
>> And speaking of archetypes, that's the second way that you can win any court
01:08:58
case in the world. >> Have you got experience with court cases and stuff like that?
01:09:03
>> A lot. >> What is your experience? >> As far as I know, I'm the only trial
01:09:07
consultant that offers a 200% money back guarantee uh when I work. >> So, what does that mean as a trial
01:09:13
consultant? What's your objective in simple terms? >> It's always a little different and it
01:09:17
depends on whether I'm working for prosecution or defense. Uh, I know nothing about the law, like just about
01:09:24
nothing. But I know people. So, I will typically go in and we'll pick a jury
01:09:31
and we'll select a jury. And we want to select a jury based on this factor and
01:09:36
this factor and based on this zip code. Here's the question that we want to ask
01:09:40
to find out which is going to be a good juror and which is a bad juror. But then
01:09:43
I have to figure out questions that are covert. How can I covertly ask a question where the opposing council, the
01:09:49
other attorney, won't know what I desire and what I don't desire based on the
01:09:54
answer? So, one case I worked for was with a was for a large grocery store company who was being sued because a
01:10:05
lady slipped on a green bean. Real [ __ ] Uh, and they hired me because it was it
01:10:12
was a big big lawsuit. And uh I want a jury that has an internal locus of control that they are in charge of their
01:10:22
own life. They're they're responsible for their destiny. And we want to weed
01:10:26
out the people that have the opposite. We want to weed out the people that kind of victim mentality like the world
01:10:32
happens to me that kind of thing. So, we have to figure out how do I ask a question that A reveals that is B covert
01:10:42
and C is not going to expose what we're looking for to opposing council. So,
01:10:47
we'll come out with a question like, how does a person catch a cold? And then you get one person that
01:10:53
answers, well, these stupid kids picking their boogers. They're wiping on the
01:10:58
escalator. They're coughing, sneezing all over the place. People aren't wearing masks. who asked the next guy,
01:11:03
"How does a person catch a cold?" And he says, 'Well, uh, if I've ever caught a
01:11:08
cold, I was in place a place I shouldn't have been. I didn't wash my hands
01:11:12
thoroughly enough. I didn't take care of my body. I didn't take vitamins. I
01:11:15
didn't take care of myself. >> Very, very different. So, we'll we know
01:11:20
what what is satisfactory for us to select a jury. And that's just one uh tiny example.
01:11:26
>> But, I'm going to pause you there cuz I just wanted to share something before we
01:11:29
carry on with this story cuz it's fascinating. It's actually the last question I ask on our culture test when
01:11:33
we employ people for my company. We ask them 35 questions before they are offered the chance to interview. And the
01:11:39
last question is, when I don't do great work, who's to blame? And it asks them,
01:11:44
it says, "The people I worked with, I wasn't given clear enough instructions
01:11:48
from a client or a boss or myself." And it's remarkable that 45% of the
01:11:54
population will click, it was me. When I don't do great work, it's not my team to
01:11:58
blame. It's not the person above or below me or some other factor. It is me.
01:12:02
And that scores them. I shouldn't say this because it's going to ruin my test,
01:12:05
but I'm going to just say it. That scores the highest marks on that that particular question because again, we're
01:12:11
trying to reveal like if you have that sense of personal responsibility. >> Yeah.
01:12:14
>> And internal locus of control, internal center of control in your life, which
01:12:19
correlates to better work, more ambition, harder work, better long long-term success, and better happiness.
01:12:25
More happiness. Sorry, please continue. >> And that you you can tell they're
01:12:29
driven, too. They're going to own their mistakes. They're going to they're going
01:12:32
to help other people be more accountable. >> Probably going to learn faster because
01:12:35
they're going to take responsibility. >> Absolutely. So, with an archetype in the jury room,
01:12:41
so we've selected, let's say we've picked a jury, then the goal is what is
01:12:46
the what is the overall archetype of the case that's playing out in front of us
01:12:51
right here? It's a small person suing a big company. Let's say if I'm on the
01:12:56
opposite now, let's say I'm on that lady's side, then I'm gonna come out
01:13:00
with without ever saying the name, I'm gonna come out and I'm gonna make you
01:13:05
think David and Goliath all day long without knowing that I made you think David and Goliath. I might say giant. I
01:13:13
might say someone small. I might say slingshot. I might say all these little key words that are probably in your head
01:13:19
about the David and Goliath story just to plant that narrative in your head. And that m might be the first three
01:13:26
hours of of the day and I've jammed that into your head and you think it's your
01:13:30
own idea. Does this make sense so far? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So then the next time I'm going to talk
01:13:36
about uh maybe it's a deposition or something like that. We'll talk about
01:13:40
waiting in line at the DMV. We're going to talk about >> for people that don't know the context
01:13:45
there because they're not in the US. >> Yeah. So waiting in line at the at this
01:13:49
government identification card office. Everyone every around the world will have some form of that when you've gone
01:13:54
to get a passport or whatever. >> Yeah. Waiting at passport control. Um your doctor's office keeping you waiting
01:14:01
for 45 minutes and not caring about your time. We're going to talk about all
01:14:05
these situations where a big big company is screwing over another person or a big
01:14:11
big government doesn't know what the hell they're doing. They're incompetent.
01:14:15
So the attorney doesn't say any of this. He's just mentioning the scenario.
01:14:21
So if I mention a scenario, what I'm there's like a little file clerk in your
01:14:25
head and if I mention any scenario, I can get that little guy to run down to the file cabinet and pull out
01:14:32
a folder that has that stuff in there. So when I say hot air balloon, your your file clerk runs down there and like,
01:14:40
okay, I was at a hot air balloon festival in New Mexico or something and pulls that file out. So, if I can get
01:14:46
your file clerk to keep pulling files out throughout the day, what the one thing the file clerk does, and this is a
01:14:52
gross generalization, is anything that's pulled out throughout that day, and if it's in one context,
01:15:00
the file clerk leaves them all out on the desk. And if I can get enough files, all the
01:15:07
files that I want out on that desk, that's going to influence every decision
01:15:11
that you make when you go home tonight. So that's kind of the persuasion except
01:15:17
I'm putting it in there in the form of an archetype. And if I get you to think
01:15:22
David and Goliath, I want you to think that this is the midpoint of that story, not the end. So if I just get you to
01:15:30
think this is probably David and Goliath, this is the middle part of the story. This is when the little kid, the
01:15:37
shepherd kid, is walking down the hill to challenge uh challenge the giant. your brain comes up with the ending to
01:15:44
the story automatically. >> Mhm. >> So these arc types are so woven into us
01:15:49
that we think if I could just complete an arctype story, it's justice. >> And what does archetype mean?
01:15:57
>> So an archetype is just like a a brand of story. >> Okay. So like a a hero's journey,
01:16:04
>> like a beginning and middle, >> tragedy, a loss and return, a rags to
01:16:09
riches story, a wounded healer story, all these classic story types. So there's like 12 story types. Joseph
01:16:17
Campbell's uh talked a lot about this, but if our brains has about 12 of these
01:16:22
little arc types, and if it's like a wounded healer story, and there's a
01:16:26
redemption thing at the end, which is called a redemption arc, I'm going to get the audience to see that we're at
01:16:32
the 75% mark right where it's about to happen. And if I just get you to see a
01:16:37
situation through the lens of an arc type, your brain automatically not just predicts, but you know how it's going to
01:16:44
end. And you want to make it in that way because it looks like justice. It looks
01:16:50
like the right thing to do. And you don't even know why your brain is trying
01:16:53
to do that. Even though I'm the one that's jammed the archetype into your
01:16:57
head for a couple of days. >> So, bringing this back to Debbie in Ohio. >> Yeah.
01:17:06
>> How might she use such a strategy in her own life to get the best out of the people she works
01:17:12
with or those around her? >> Yeah. So you can also use this as a profiling tool. If I have
01:17:19
>> and uh if you take notes on this stuff about people in your office, I would
01:17:23
keep them private, >> but figure out like this guy's on a you don't even have to know and memorize all
01:17:30
these 12 arc types. What movie are they in? When they talk about their life, what movie are they in? You have the one
01:17:36
guy in the office that wants to go on crazy adventures and do stuff that nobody else has done. This is that's a
01:17:41
Back to the Future archetype. You can make up your own archetypes, but if they're if they're doing all of this and
01:17:47
everything's going good, what's the next thing they're going to predict? They're
01:17:51
going to have a problem coming up in their life. So, I know how they're going
01:17:55
to predict their future if I just know what story they're in. >> Andrew Bamonte, who's that CIA spy who
01:18:00
I've had on the show a few times, told me about his rice framework um in espionage, reward, ideology, coercion,
01:18:06
and ego. um reward being the things you want like money, ideology being you know
01:18:12
doing this is good for your family, doing this is good for your country, the C being coercion which is pressurizing
01:18:17
people and the E being ego. He said, "Of all four of these, ideology, like understanding someone's ideology is the
01:18:22
most persuasive for when he was a spy." And the way that I've kind of conceptualized that and maybe built upon
01:18:29
it a little bit, and I I'm saying that cuz I don't want to be butchering his
01:18:32
idea, is I think everybody has a hero's journey that they're on right now. And
01:18:38
when you're meeting them to get them to, you know, maybe come and work at your
01:18:41
company or persuading them to do a deal, like the first great challenge is listening to them long enough for them
01:18:47
to hand over their ideology to you so that you can speak to them. Not through your own ideology and what you want, but
01:18:53
you can talk through their ideology. And like even with me, obviously there's
01:18:58
like a hero's journey in my mind. There's like a story >> all of us
01:19:01
>> that like is behind me, but also I want to be ahead of me. And if you know, if
01:19:05
you can listen long enough to figure out what that is, you can tell me, "Okay,
01:19:08
Steve, I'm going to sell you this Range Rover and tell me the features of it or
01:19:13
the benefits of it through >> yes, >> the hero's journey that I want to live
01:19:17
out." >> Everyone listening right now has that. Like, you have a hero's journey that
01:19:21
you're on. And the most persuasive thing I think anyone could do is not just give
01:19:24
you money or whatever is to let them know that the thing you're offering is going to realize that story or at least
01:19:32
the next chapter. >> Okay? So not it. We don't always want to sell a completion. We just want to say
01:19:39
this is the logical next step of this story. Like this guy did a bad thing. He needs to be punished. And what happens
01:19:47
after the punishment? This is the learning the lesson and being redeemed arc. M >> so we're not we're not going to tell a
01:19:53
jury or suggest to a jury that he's going to go learn a lesson and then come
01:19:56
back. We're just going to suggest like what's this next thing that happens. So
01:20:00
if somebody has this arc if we figure out what what is my journey? What is what arc type am I living right now?
01:20:05
What type of story then I can figure out how my brain is predicting the future? Because
01:20:12
archetypes are so woven into our brains without language. So the language is not
01:20:19
necessary for the archetype to exist. >> So it's if you know someone else's
01:20:24
archetype, you can understand how they're going to predict their future and how they're going to make choices.
01:20:28
>> And how do you get their archetype out of them? >> You're going to hear it. It's so funny
01:20:32
like there's you don't even need special questions. You ask them about their
01:20:36
life. Ask them where they're from. Ask them to give me like this summary of like what happened when you worked there
01:20:41
at that company. Well, I did this and this and this and nobody thanked me. It was a thankless job. the manager was a
01:20:47
total [ __ ] So now you're starting to see an archetype like the guy was in a
01:20:52
tragedy there. The guy was a victim >> and they want to be appreciated. >> Yeah. So now he's here at this brand new
01:20:57
company for redemption. So now we're in a redemption story arc. Does that make
01:21:02
sense? >> Yeah, it makes perfect sense. >> So it it just comes out naturally in
01:21:06
everybody's speech. But the the funny thing is I've never seen it applied to
01:21:13
courtrooms in the way in the way that we do it and it's a just such a powerful
01:21:18
tool. The number one thing that I specialize in is this thing called the time distance problem. This is what I wanted
01:21:26
to solve throughout my entire career. So we have two axes, our vertical axis and horizontal axis.
01:21:35
So this horizontal axis is the distance line and the vertical axis going up and down
01:21:44
is the time line. Okay, so we have time and we have distance. So distance is how far away
01:21:54
from a behavioral norm can I get a person to go? >> So can I get Stephen to confess to a
01:22:02
crime? Like doing something that's going to send you to jail for 30 years is way
01:22:08
outside of your behavioral norm. And for me to be able to do that in an interrogation room, I have to do some
01:22:15
techniques. I have to do some crazy stuff. If I do it in sales, then I'm getting you to make a decision that you
01:22:20
maybe otherwise wouldn't have. Maybe if I'm in time share uh sales or something
01:22:24
like that. And at the end of the day, some people can get people far on the distance line, but it's going to take
01:22:35
forever to do it. It's going to take maybe a year to to make something happen
01:22:40
>> of persuading them and trying to sell to them, etc. >> Yeah. And the last interrogations I did
01:22:46
that were for a corporation in California, I had to do 45 interrogations in like
01:22:54
two days. and I had maybe 25 minutes per interior. It's the the least amount of
01:22:59
time I've ever been given. And that was the time distance problem. So, how do I
01:23:06
layer on the techniques, the identity, the perception, context, and permission? How do I get that layered into a
01:23:12
conversation as fast as possible so I can shift someone's behavior as fast as
01:23:16
possible? So, everything that you're looking at is typically a time distance
01:23:20
problem. And there's one more universal thing, and this may not even fit anywhere in the episode because it's
01:23:25
random, but you were talking earlier about like carrying this trauma in your backpack. So many people are trying to
01:23:30
get rid of this trauma. The reason that psychedelics can rewire PTSD so effing fast is that it that doesn't delete your
01:23:40
trauma at all. The memory is still there. The whole all that stuff is still there. It changes the perspective so
01:23:46
massively that you can still see the event, but it forces you to see all of that stuff through a different lens.
01:23:53
>> So, if you look at somebody that has some depression stuff going on, some
01:23:57
weird mental stuff going on in their life, so much of of what ails us, even someone who's lacking confidence and
01:24:03
they say, "I I can't be a leader. I can't go into this meeting. I can't do
01:24:06
this negotiation." It's a perspective problem. It's >> like 90% of the problems that that that
01:24:12
people have that I work with is just a perspective issue and nothing else. And occasionally, um, if somebody's been
01:24:19
going through a lot for a long time, uh, I would get your neurotransmitters tested and get your brain tested and see
01:24:26
if you've got some chemical imbalance that's that's causing a lot of stuff.
01:24:29
Just sometimes a vitamin deficiency could cause a lot of that. Do any of you remember a conversation I had on this
01:24:34
podcast with anthropologist Dr. Daniel Lieberman? It was one of the most viewed conversations of all time on the Diary
01:24:40
of a CEO. And interestingly, the most replayed moment of that entire conversation was when I talked about a
01:24:46
specific pair of shoes that I wear. They're called Barefoot Shoes, and they're made by a brand called Vivo
01:24:52
Barefoot, who have become one of the sponsors of this show. Now, all of their shoes have significantly reduced
01:24:57
support, which gives my feet the opportunity to strengthen just by wearing them. And research from
01:25:02
Liverpool University backs this up. They've shown that wearing Vivo Barefoot
01:25:06
shoes for 6 months can increase foot strength by up to 60%. So if you want to start strengthening your feet, which are
01:25:13
the foundation for the rest of your body, head to vivobarefoot.com/doac. And if you do that, I'll give you 15%
01:25:20
off when you use my code Steven B15. Use that code at checkout. And I'll also
01:25:26
give you a 100day money back guarantee. Steven B15. Enjoy. We have finally caved in. So many of you
01:25:36
have asked us if we could bundle the conversation cards with the 1% diary. For those of you that don't know, every
01:25:42
single time a guest sits here with me in the chair, they leave a question in the
01:25:45
diary of a CEO and then I ask that question to the next guest. We don't release those questions in any
01:25:50
environment other than on these incredible conversation cards. These have become a fantastic tool for people
01:25:56
in relationships, people in teams, in big corporations, and also family members to connect with each other. With
01:26:02
that, we also have the 1% diary, which is this incredible tool to change habits in your life. So many of you have asked
01:26:08
if it was possible to buy both at the same time, especially people in big companies. So, what we've done is we've
01:26:14
bundled them together and you can buy both at the same time. And if you want to drive connection and instill habit
01:26:20
change in your company, head to the diary.com to inquire and our team will be in touch. Outside of psychedelics, is
01:26:26
there any useful ways you found to change one's perception? There's they have all kinds of like
01:26:32
sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation tanks and darkness retreats, all those things that people
01:26:40
talk about with breath work and they go on these big ass retreats. I don't know
01:26:43
anything about those things. Do study psychedelics a lot and I I think John's Hopkins this year I
01:26:51
think said that it was the most effective drug ever tested in human history >> for depression, treatment resistant
01:26:56
depression or >> for psychological problems. the treatment position, depression, PTSD,
01:27:02
addiction, and now we have this new drug called Ibagane. It's not new. It's been
01:27:06
around for thousands of years, but uh that's helping people with addiction. And
01:27:12
there is now people a able to do intravenous uh DMT for like 5 hours at a time instead of five minutes at a time.
01:27:21
And I was the 41st person in the world to do the intravenous uh DMT. >> Where did you do that?
01:27:28
uh Denver. I did it because it DMT boosts has a massive boost of BDNF which is brain
01:27:36
derived neutrophic factor and it also produces a lot of plasticity, a lot of brain plasticity. So I was trying to fix
01:27:43
my brain. I've got a brain disease. So I went down there on this 5 hour thing and I've been completely different
01:27:49
ever since that day. So it is a it is a massive benefit and it's heavy though.
01:27:56
DMT is a heavy heavy thing to go through. I don't see I can't see any reason why any human being would use it
01:28:03
recreationally. For anyone that hasn't experienced DM2, how would you describe the experience? I
01:28:09
know that's going to be hard to do because of some of my friends have done it and when you ask them to describe it,
01:28:14
it seems to be quite abstract. >> Yeah. It's like if you if we had some
01:28:20
two-dimensional creatures that were living on this piece of paper right here on the table and one of those creatures
01:28:27
figured out that he can smoke some DMT and that somehow enabled us to peel this two-dimensional creature to where it
01:28:34
could see in three dimensions and see everything in this room. That's a DMT.
01:28:40
You're getting peeled out of reality into some other realm. And the the weird
01:28:45
thing is every scientist that I know that's studying DMT, not one of them thinks it's a hallucination.
01:28:52
>> What do they think it is? I think the the more someone the more familiar
01:28:56
someone is with DMT, the less certain they are about what the hell's going on.
01:29:01
But everyone everyone literally everyone who uses DMT pretty much goes to the same exact places and they all meet the
01:29:08
same entities, the same seven or eight different types of entities. And it's
01:29:12
been the same for 4,500 years of of recorded history with DMT. And DMT is something we make in our own body. It's
01:29:19
it's an indogenous chemical. Has it changed your perception of what reality really is?
01:29:24
>> 100%. Yeah. It's so much more real than this reality. It's like
01:29:32
it's it's so ineffable. There are no words that that can describe it, but
01:29:38
it's a thousand maybe a million times more real than this in such a way that
01:29:44
just coming back to this feels like everything is kind of claymation for a little while.
01:29:49
>> Claimation >> or just fake like a cartoon uh of some kind. It's just really low resolution
01:29:56
and it I I come back with no certainty about anything. And I think everybody comes back with that lack of certainty.
01:30:03
You're not coming back and be like, I saw this exact thing and here's what it
01:30:06
means and here's how the universe is created and and all of that, but you go
01:30:11
up there and you come back and you're like, something about this plane doesn't
01:30:15
feel real anymore. And that is a permanent shift that's hard for some people to make. And you can't unsee
01:30:22
that you were kind of able to poke your head out of the out of the side door of the Truman Show and and look out
01:30:28
backstage for a little while. So, has it made you believe that this isn't real?
01:30:34
This reality that we're living in now is not real. >> We'd have to define real.
01:30:40
The only >> How would you define real? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So, that's
01:30:46
why you can touch it, you can measure it, you can taste it, smell it. Would that be real?
01:30:51
>> Do you think we're living in a simulation? that we have to define simulation
01:30:56
because I think every society has this hubris of the universe is whatever is cool to us right now electricity came
01:31:03
out the universe was energy industrial revolution came out the whole universe was a giant machine and right now
01:31:10
everybody says oh that we in we just discovered computers the universe must be a computer it's like the the hubris
01:31:17
of of every generation what I mean by simulation I I think like is it rendered in some way by something. Uh
01:31:27
I I study this stuff all day, every day of my life. And I think that the more we
01:31:33
the more discoveries we have in particle physics and quantum mechanics, the more
01:31:38
they're proving the hermetic principles, right? >> What's that? >> These are the seven ancient principles
01:31:44
of this guy named Hermes Tismagist, also known as Thoth, like an an Egyptian guy.
01:31:50
They're confused about his name, but he's like uh he wrote these like these
01:31:56
first two principles are the most important. The first one is all is mind. >> All is mind.
01:32:01
>> All is mind. The all is mind. The universe is mental. And then the second
01:32:06
one is as above so below. And here's how I explained this to my son a couple days
01:32:11
ago. I said, "Have you ever had a dream where there's like a building in the
01:32:15
dream? Maybe there's a house in front of you. and what are you looking at the
01:32:20
house with? And he said, "Well, my eyes." I said, "Why? Which eyes are
01:32:25
they? Are they your eyes that you're seeing the house with?" And he said,
01:32:29
"No, cuz you're imagining your own set of eyes to see the house with in your
01:32:33
dream. Your eyes don't aren't there. Your body isn't there. So, you're
01:32:37
imagining the whole body and the world." And I said, "What's the distance between
01:32:40
you and that house in your dream?" They said, "30 feet." I said, 'What is the
01:32:45
air made out of between you and the house?' And he said, 'A and I said, 'You
01:32:49
have air in your dreams? Is it real air?' He said, 'N no, it's just it's my
01:32:54
brain. I said, so is there distance between you and the house? He said, no. What's the house made out of? Me. What's
01:33:00
the air made out of? Me. The entire thing is me. The ground I'm standing on,
01:33:05
the house, the the clouds in the sky. So in a dream, you can verifiably prove that something is real. You can test it,
01:33:14
you can touch it and all of that and the perception of it is is very much real. So the theory now and I don't I don't
01:33:23
have any certainty about this but one interesting theory that I've heard from
01:33:26
many different neuroscientists is like if we look at as above so below like a universe spins like a DNA double
01:33:35
helix. You can zoom in on a human eyeball and it looks the same as a nebula. What if dreams are this level
01:33:42
level one and this is like level two of that where we're hallucinating distance?
01:33:48
We're hallucinating. And I think whatever the case is, I have no idea. I have no theories about it myself. But
01:33:56
whatever the case is, I do think that separation is the greatest lie ever told to the entire world of like the you are
01:34:05
separate from that person like this you are separate from this and how people say I need to go spend time in nature
01:34:11
like you are nature like that's that's part of who you are. You're made out of
01:34:15
that stuff. You're made out of that dirt. So I think the illusion of separation is
01:34:21
is the one thing that I think will help a lot of people and that's why psychedelics can really just rewire
01:34:28
somebody's brain so so fast. It just deletes that separation. Feel like I just did had some DMT
01:34:37
because you said you know level one is dreams, level two is maybe this reality. So the question in my mind was what's
01:34:42
level three? >> Yeah. Then that would maybe be what you see on DMT. >> You said that world was more real than
01:34:50
this one. >> Oh yeah. Exponentially, immeasurably. >> Why? How how do you quantify realness?
01:34:58
Like what's this the measuring stick there? >> It it there there are no words for it.
01:35:07
>> Has this changed your view on religion? >> Yeah. >> How has it changed your view?
01:35:12
>> I wasn't really a religious person. I think it made me a much more spiritual
01:35:16
person. And I think before any psychedelic therapy that I went through, I was I was performing spirituality.
01:35:24
So spirituality was kind of something I I did to show people. >> Yeah. Virtue. Virtue to signal virtue.
01:35:31
>> And now spirituality, you kind of see it like it's not a big deal. It doesn't you
01:35:37
don't have to go buy linen yoga pants and and wooden beads and bathe in essential oils to be spiritual. Like you
01:35:44
can just maybe have a hand up there and be less certain. I think the certainty is the is
01:35:51
the enemy. Like we haven't been here very long. We're very very newborn creatures on this planet.
01:35:56
>> Has it made you more empathetic? >> Unbelievably so. Yeah. At the end of the day, it everybody
01:36:05
wants to like after your first or second time going to psychedelic therapy, you're like, "Oh, I need to understand
01:36:11
the secrets of the universe now." Which you go in there with this like very
01:36:15
egoic uh egocentric uh desires and then they're like, "Okay, you want to
01:36:22
understand the universe? They'll show it all to you." And your brain's not
01:36:24
capable of understanding it, remembering it or translating it once you once you come back anyway. And I think o over
01:36:32
time you learn that the more ego I have, it's like I'm performing. And then every
01:36:38
time I go back in there or every time like I kind of reflect on that experience, it helps me to unzip this my
01:36:44
little ego costume uh a little bit more. Did you know that you can get banned from DMT?
01:36:52
Really, dude? You got to look this up. There are thousands of people out there who were using DMT recreationally
01:37:00
and the beings up there basically told him you are done and you're you're
01:37:05
banned from from DMT and the journey stops right there in that moment and the guy can take hit after hit after hit
01:37:12
after hit of DMT and nothing happens. You can be banned from that realm or whatever it is. I think they call it
01:37:20
hyperspace. Now >> in the culture culture surrounding DMT, there is a widely reported anecdote
01:37:26
phenomenon called being locked out of hyperspace. Many frequent users report reaching a
01:37:32
point where the drug simply stops working as expected regardless of the dose. The common descriptions include the
01:37:39
waiting room wall, getting stuck in the initial onset phase and being unable to break through. The gray room, seeing
01:37:45
only flat, colorless, or dull visuals instead of the visual vibrant geometry. The hypers slap. A terrifying or deeply
01:37:51
uncomfortable experience where entities appear to tell you that you aren't welcome or shouldn't be here anymore.
01:37:59
The sudden blackout, smoking the substance and simply falling asleep or remembering nothing, effectively being
01:38:06
denied entry. H I think there's there are thousands of people. one of the um very very random
01:38:14
but persuasive thought experiments I sometimes um use to explain why I've started to
01:38:21
believe that there's probably something more is weirdly how much I've learned
01:38:26
about the gut microbiome. >> And it sounds like a strange thing and like not a connection one would expect
01:38:31
to make. But when I sat here with these experts and they're like, "Oh, by the
01:38:34
way, there's 38 trillion living organisms in your gut right now." I you know, you're saying like what is
01:38:43
below is above or whatever that phrase was. I was like, okay, so those 38 million creatures, I know that you could
01:38:48
argue that maybe they're not conscious or whatever you want to say. Yeah. >> But they have no idea. Like if they
01:38:54
work, they have no idea that they're living inside another organism down. If
01:38:59
they could debate, they would be debating religion. They'd be saying, "Do
01:39:02
you think we have a creator?" And they'd look around and they wouldn't see him.
01:39:05
But because they don't realize that they're inside, I guess their god, like their creator,
01:39:12
the thing that's feeding them every day and keeping them alive and that kind of,
01:39:16
you could argue created them because I created the environment for them to reproduce.
01:39:20
>> And when I thought about that, I thought about the oceans. I was like, the, you
01:39:23
know, the animals at the very bottom of the deepest ocean have no idea that there's anything above. They have no
01:39:28
idea. And then I and then you got to ask yourself, am I like arrogant enough to believe or naive enough to believe that
01:39:33
like this is it? that I am at the top of the mountain and there's nothing. It's
01:39:38
so egotistical to think like there isn't there could be nothing above me. And
01:39:41
then the other thing that's been really persuasive for me in my journey of like
01:39:45
spirituality or religion or whatever you want to call it is I did a bunch of star
01:39:49
tours and generally getting interested in the stars and sitting there with a a star expert and him saying to me at
01:39:54
night time in Joshua Tree look over there and he'd like get this big binocular out this 1 m binocular and he
01:40:00
say what you're seeing there is he'd say something crazy like 28 million lighty
01:40:04
years away and I'm looking at a whole another galaxy and it's just this speck
01:40:08
and it's 28 million light years away. Scratching my head going like, "What the
01:40:14
that is inconceivably far away and it's just this dot." And he goes, "Yeah,
01:40:18
there's like trillions of those." >> And I'm thinking, "Oh, like the gut
01:40:23
microbiome. There's like 38 trillion of those." >> Yeah. >> And they're just specks with life on
01:40:28
them that we understand at some granular level, but maybe not the deepest granular level. So maybe I'm just
01:40:34
another gut in the bug of some toddler in some other space. And I just don't
01:40:39
know the answer. What do you do with that information? No idea. >> But the new theory is that this
01:40:44
consciousness is external to our body. >> What does that mean? >> Like our brains act as a receiver and a
01:40:52
filter for consciousness and not a creator of consciousness. So that hypothetically maybe DMT is something
01:41:00
that just pops that filter off and allows us to experience full consciousness. M
01:41:07
>> and then if the all is mind. So if everything in my dream is made up of me
01:41:12
and we just copy paste that up to this level, we're all maybe part of one mind
01:41:16
and there aren't any people. It's just a mind. So like the distance between us doesn't exist. It's just just
01:41:26
like a dream except we're sharing a dream up here. And that's one of the I
01:41:32
think that's a part of that that new consciousness theory. I don't subscribe
01:41:35
to any of them. Any one of them in particular. >> You haven't got to believe any of this
01:41:40
stuff. Um >> because it's hard to you're never going to know for sure. But even hearing it
01:41:47
makes me feel a lot more empathetic for my fellow being. >> Yeah. >> Cuz it makes me you. It makes it makes
01:41:54
your enemy you. It makes your friend you. Makes the person you love hate whatever. It makes all of them you. And
01:42:00
none of us would. I think I think we treat ourselves much better sometimes than we would treat someone a thousand
01:42:06
miles away in a different country with a different color skin. >> Yeah. >> Um so that's what I love about this
01:42:11
conversation and actually every time I bring myself back to this point about consciousness being one, it does make me
01:42:17
more empathetic to things. >> It does. And it's not because you're a
01:42:20
moral person. >> Like you don't have to have morals anymore. So if I see you as me,
01:42:27
>> I'm just protecting myself. >> Yeah. Like it's just a natural
01:42:31
>> in the same way I would with my children. >> Yeah. >> Or Yeah.
01:42:34
>> Yeah. And I mean the the morality doesn't need to exist anymore. It's just
01:42:39
the right thing. >> Chase, what is the most important idea we didn't talk about that we should have
01:42:45
talked about specifically as it relates to the most important skills people are going to need? whether it's body
01:42:51
language or people skills or sales skills in the world we're heading towards where they're positing that
01:42:56
robots are going to take away lots of the manual labor jobs and artificial intelligence is going to take away a lot
01:43:01
of the like cognitive work and we might be rendered left with each other in the real world.
01:43:06
>> Yeah. Number one is making people feel heard and seen and resonating with them when they're
01:43:16
heard and not judging them when they're seen. That's the number one because AI,
01:43:24
you can mark my words, AI will never in a million years serve as a replacement for humans on the
01:43:33
social level of Maslo's hierarchy of needs where we have survival, safety, belonging. That that third row of
01:43:40
Maslo's pyramid cannot be fulfilled through electronic means as of yet anyway. And maybe the they're going to
01:43:47
start making sex robots and all that kind of stuff when these these things come out. But we cannot fulfill that
01:43:55
desire. We cannot fulfill that need. So what's above that? Then we have esteem,
01:44:02
our self-esteem and our our self-actualization. We can never move past level three
01:44:08
because we're getting a placebo of connection from Twitter and Tik Tok and all these apps and uh these pseudosocial
01:44:17
apps. YouTube, we have these parasocial relationships on YouTube and it's it cannot fulfill that level. Our
01:44:26
brains were not wired to receive digital connection. We have our brains have not developed
01:44:31
one more wrinkle in the last 200,000 years. Exactly. the same brain. >> So, we're not going to outscience
01:44:39
uh the lower part of the brain. And you can't like meditate your way out of having good relationships and being
01:44:46
around 3D people. You you need it in your life. And I genuinely think AI is never going to replace it.
01:44:53
>> I would agree. I would agree. I think one of the things that's been
01:44:58
really persuasive in this regard is I remember in psychology lessons when I was like maybe 16 years old, Mrs. Lowi.
01:45:06
I've always missed Miss Lowry. Miss Lowry, if you're listening, please get
01:45:09
in touch. My I shouldn't say my email. Um, but just get in touch through Gareth. He knows know me, but I just
01:45:15
wanted to say that because she she was a great teacher for me in psychology. I really only like two lessons in school,
01:45:19
business and psychology. So, Mr. Hughes and Mrs. Lounley Lown's lessons. The
01:45:23
others I found a bit tricky, but I thought those two teachers saw something in me. Miss Lowry was talking about the
01:45:29
recess monkeys experiment where they got these like recess monkeys to um either they gave them a fake mother but that
01:45:37
had cloth on it or they gave them a wire mother so a mother made out of wires and
01:45:44
they looked at their psychological outcomes over time. I'm probably butchering this, so please community
01:45:48
note me, Dio team, so that the facts are on the screen. And what they found is if
01:45:52
you want the monkeys that grew to be most psychologically stable and happy and weren't psychopaths were the ones
01:45:59
that had a cloth mother and the the monkeys that became erratic and clearly had deep psychological problems were the
01:46:05
ones that just had a wire mother. So that's always reminded me that even in a
01:46:08
world of robots or AI, whatever, there's still something irreplaceably human
01:46:12
about physical human connection and touch. >> Yeah. which I actually think is going to
01:46:16
become is going to absolutely surge in a world where we do have robots and intelligence and retentive algorithms. I
01:46:21
think there's going to be this bifocation of society where many people flee back to the real world.
01:46:27
Yeah. And the two biggest things that we have as a result of all this is loneliness and division
01:46:33
and the division is manufactured and the loneliness is a byproduct. Is there anything else you wanted to
01:46:39
share? >> Yeah, maybe some good news. That was some shitty. I'd be shitty to stop on
01:46:44
that note. >> Give me some good news. >> I think one of the the number one thing
01:46:49
that people need to know is that if you wrote down the biggest insecurities that
01:46:54
you've ever had in your entire life, every crazy crazy thing about how you thought it was a big deal, you have to
01:47:02
forget forgive yourself for that [ __ ] you did when you were 12. You have to uh
01:47:07
stop doing this. You have to you have to stop hiding yourself from other people.
01:47:10
If you just wrote down every one of your insecurities with a hundred people and then had someone type all of them
01:47:18
out, all hundred people, you wouldn't be able to find your own. You you'd be very confused. You'd think
01:47:31
that someone just paraphrased you a hundred times if you're digging through that hat trying to find your
01:47:36
insecurities. And it would shock you. Uh, and it's one thing to hear it maybe on a podcast, but
01:47:42
to see it in real life. If you see the depth of other people, we are so much the same. And all the [ __ ] that we hide
01:47:52
because we don't want anybody else to see it. Everyone else is hiding the exact same stuff. Everybody else is
01:47:58
feeling the exact same way. The number one thing that people regret on their deathbed is like, I should have treated
01:48:05
it more like a game. I should have figured out what was important in the game and done what was actually
01:48:10
important. Uh, and that's it. >> That means a lot to you, doesn't it?
01:48:17
>> That particular point, it's almost like you've changed since the last time we
01:48:20
spoke in a way. >> Yeah. >> I think there's been a bit of an evolution.
01:48:24
>> Yeah. And I think that level of empathy is super important to life and it helps
01:48:30
slow things down. And no matter what you're going through, put put make a poster and put this up on your wall.
01:48:38
It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be a game. And I think Alan Watts had a quote that
01:48:45
said, "Most of man's memory comes from taking very seriously what God made for
01:48:51
fun." It's hard not to take it seriously though when it seems to threaten some of
01:49:02
our prehistoric design. And if we go back to the triangle where you've got friends and
01:49:09
rewards and you've got safety, if it threatens any of these things, then it doesn't feel so fun,
01:49:15
>> right? Depending on your perspective. And that's where the big perspective
01:49:19
shift comes in of like I got to remind myself this is supposed to be fun. >> Chase, we have a closing tradition on
01:49:27
this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who
01:49:29
they're leaving it for. And the question left for you, >> Sounds like you've rehearsed that.
01:49:33
>> Yeah, I've said it quite a few times now. Probably 500 times. Um, if you were going to take on a new
01:49:42
challenge this year to expand the territory of your skill set in a way that would make you happy, what
01:49:50
would it be? I think uh developing the ability to shut the [ __ ] up and celebrate when
01:50:01
there's a win. Uh, we just had like a giant record month in our company. massive record
01:50:07
month and I was like, "Okay, okay." And then I just went I joined another
01:50:11
meeting and it fell by the wayside and I think I'm going to regret doing that and
01:50:15
I think celebrating wins is a skill uh that I need to cultivate better. Mo Gordat um from episode 101 was the
01:50:28
most shared episode of any podcast in 2023 on Apple in the UK according to Apple and one of the things he said in
01:50:34
that conversation he's um head of Google X who left when his son died in a routine operation and he went in search
01:50:39
of happiness so at Google he was leading the innovation teams all like the AI stuff robots and all that stuff and I
01:50:44
remember he he like becomes a backpacker at 50 odd years old ends up having a divorce from his wife after 18 years and
01:50:50
his whole life when he sat in the chair he was like backpacking he had this one shirt he'd come to my studio and short
01:50:55
in London, this this old kitchen, this used to be my kitchen. And he said a line to me which has always stayed with
01:50:59
me. He said, "Happiness is when your expectations of how your life are supposed to be going are met." And so
01:51:04
from that, I can deduce the opposite to be true, which is unhappiness is when your expectations of how you thought
01:51:10
your life was supposed to be going go unmet. And in there, I I always come back to this because like almost all of
01:51:15
my unhappiness is when I had an expectation of how my life was supposed to be going or something was supposed to
01:51:21
be going. your relationship, getting cut off in traffic, whatever it might be, podcast, whatever.
01:51:25
>> And when it when you fall short of one's expectation, that gap is like is
01:51:29
dissatisfaction and frustration or whatever else. And so, can one play with this by
01:51:36
being grateful? Because I think great gratitude is a proxy of realizing that expectations you once had are now being
01:51:44
met and succeeded. But the problem is as striving creatures, we keep a delta between where we are and where we expect
01:51:53
to be. So like when you talked about celebrating your win there, I was like the problem is you're already thinking
01:51:58
about the next one. So you've already created a delta. >> Yeah. >> And that's going to keep you on whereas
01:52:02
like the you know is it Eastern traditions are all about gratitude which in that moment is going [ __ ] Chase we
01:52:09
did it. >> Yeah. >> This was a dream. >> Yeah. >> And you did it. And like are you able to
01:52:14
sit in that? The problem I've also discovered with this spiel is I expected it to be automatic. I expected the
01:52:22
gratitude and the excitement and the joy to be automatic. >> Yeah. >> So when it didn't automatically show up
01:52:28
when I became a millionaire or the podcast did well, I thought maybe it'll show up on the
01:52:35
next one. >> Yeah. >> Instead of like taking a moment and forcing it out of me like reminding
01:52:41
myself that this was it. Chase. >> Yeah. >> This was the dream. >> And that's the perspective.
01:52:45
>> Yeah. Perspective. >> Like your your camera angles, like mine, I'll speak for myself, is just so zoomed
01:52:51
in on on this exact moment on what's going on in the business, this meeting that's coming up in a few minutes.
01:52:58
They're just like dragging that camera by the throat and pulling it up to like
01:53:03
when you zoom out on Google Maps and be like, >> "This is a big deal." Like you have time
01:53:09
to pause. Nothing you think is a big deal is a huge deal. You can pause, you can cancel that meeting uh and really
01:53:16
celebrate. It's so true. And it maybe like when I became a millionaire, I thought it was
01:53:22
like it's going to fix my posture. It's going to make my skin look better. Um it
01:53:30
didn't do anything. It didn't do [ __ ] Hm. And the crazy part about that is you
01:53:35
hear often hear of what they call gold medal depression, which again is a prime example of like you you had an
01:53:41
expectation of that moment. You thought confetti and a marching band and it would be I don't know like front page of
01:53:46
the newspaper or whatever. And the reality is it didn't do [ __ ] So now you
01:53:50
got a problem. Now you're Now a lot of people they get upset. They come back
01:53:53
from the Olympics with a gold medal and they're depressed because they climb to
01:53:56
the top of the mountain. They got and it didn't change anything. Now that's a
01:54:00
problem. >> Yeah. So I actively practice especially ahead of an accomplishment. I actively
01:54:06
practice forced gratitude which is like really taking a moment and and zooming out as you say. And then the other is
01:54:12
like before I just got my house in LA which is this incredible [ __ ] house and like blows like from where I come
01:54:17
from it's you know kid born in Botswana moves to the UK. Um before I walked into
01:54:23
the house I I literally out loud reminded myself that this was not going to change anything in my life. It wasn't
01:54:30
going to make me an inch happier in any way. It was going to have no material impact on anything. No one's opinion of
01:54:37
me is going to change. Nothing. It's going to do nothing for me. And when I walked into that house for the first
01:54:42
time, >> I could actually really enjoy it because my expectations were so low.
01:54:48
>> That's beautiful. >> So, it was very easy to exceed my expectations cuz I had none, you know,
01:54:52
and I actually enjoy every day when I walk downstairs because it's like blowing my mind.
01:54:56
>> Yeah. >> You know, >> that is awesome. But you still get to
01:55:00
celebrate that that you got the house. >> Yeah. >> Without it meaning something about you.
01:55:05
>> Yeah. >> That's I think that's the difference. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're right.
01:55:08
>> Like you can feel good about a good YouTube comment without it without you
01:55:13
going, "Yeah, yeah, Stephen is a good guy, >> you know, like where you're not writing
01:55:18
identity statements about it." >> Identity. That's the key. That's what I
01:55:21
was clearly doing there is I'm saying this is not going to impact my identity
01:55:23
in any way. Don't [ __ ] think it's going to going to. >> Yeah. But it still means that when I
01:55:26
wake up in the morning and see a view, I go, "Wow, that's so wow."
01:55:29
>> Yeah. >> You know, >> so true. So true. I fully resonate with
01:55:34
that. >> Chase, where do people go to get more of you? Where's the best place?
01:55:38
>> Best place is nci.un university. >> NCI. University. I'll link that below
01:55:43
for anyone that's looking for the link. >> And my YouTube channel is just my name.
01:55:49
>> We'll try and collab with you on this video. So, if you should if you look
01:55:52
down below, you should see two icons. and you'll see the directio icon and Chase's icon. If you're watching on
01:55:57
YouTube, just click Chase's icon and you'll go over to his YouTube channel.
01:56:01
Chase, thank you so much. >> Thanks, Stephen. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
01:56:05
where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the
01:56:11
algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check
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this video out and I bet you you might love it.