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Trump threw the election and then thereafter said that >> Canada should honestly become our 51st
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state >> which is never going to happen. >> Pierre Polyv, leader of his majesty's
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loyal opposition. There's a significant probability that you could be Canada's
00:00:14
next leader and your team said I can ask you whatever I want. >> Okay. >> So it appears that the United States
00:00:21
have made the decision to kind of go it alone in the world >> and that is a very big strategic
00:00:25
mistake. In Canada's case, we have everything the United States needs if they treat us like a friend. So, for
00:00:30
example, we have the fourth biggest supply of oil. And if you look at the leading five, which of these countries
00:00:36
do you think the United States can most rely on? >> And I'm looking at the third vial there
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in the row, Iran. >> Mhm. >> Has Trump taken the right course of action?
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>> The Iranian government has been extremely hostile and very dangerous to
00:00:47
Canada. They are the leading world sponsor of terrorism. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only reason
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that they are enriching uranium is for the purpose of developing a weapon. And there's a far greater risk to them
00:00:59
having a nuclear weapon than even North Korea. So the initial actions were definitely necessary.
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>> But how do you think this plays out? And if Trump had called you and asked for
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your support, would you have given it? >> Well, let let's put it this way.
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>> What is the thing that you're most concerned about? >> We're overt taxing our population. We're
00:01:14
punishing initiative. We have 20,000 immigrant doctors who can't work in medicine. Wages have been destroyed.
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Young people can't start a family in this economy. And that is why the working class across the Western world
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is so angry. The good news is we can reverse all of that. >> And the other thing that I actually was
00:01:30
really keen to talk about is this. >> Wow. >> I can see the emotion in your face.
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>> Yeah. >> It's still there. >> Yeah. I hadn't thought about that in a
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while. This is super interesting to me. My team gave me this report to show me how many
00:01:53
of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from
00:01:58
the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you. Please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button
00:02:03
if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark
00:02:07
on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my
00:02:13
team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to
00:02:19
hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
00:02:22
ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
00:02:25
I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder
00:02:29
and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that
00:02:33
promise since the very beginning of the Dio, and I will not let you down. Please
00:02:38
help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show. Pierre Polyv, leader of his majesty's
00:02:52
loyal opposition. There is so much I want to talk to you about. I think you have a truly fascinating formative
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childhood. One of which I've I've really seldom seen on this show, especially
00:03:03
when the person rises so high in their political ambitions. But I think the most appropriate thing to start with
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because it's just front of mind for me at the moment is what the hell is going
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on in the world? And I mean that's genuinely I'm I'm up all night trying to figure out if we're
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on the verge of World War II. What's going on with all these alliances we used to have? What is going on in the
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world? >> The history of starts really in the post-war period with a massive increase
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in the power and the wealth of the United States. They unleashed the capitalist system. They effectively
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buried the Soviet Union just by out hustling, out producing and out outgrowing until the Soviet Union
00:03:44
collapsed. And then a new authoritarian power snuck up on the United States. China went from having 80% of its
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population living on one less than a dollar a day to being the second biggest economy in the world. At the same time,
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uh, the American working class has been thoroughly screwed over by relentless money printing that has inflated their
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cost of living while also inflating the wealth of of a small group of elites. And I think this resulted in a major
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push back. Now, some of that was justified. That push back is justified, but I also think some of it is very much
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unjustified. Tariffing countries like Canada makes no sense. uh if you're the
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United States, you should want more friends, more trade with those friends. And that's one of the reasons why I've
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been touring the United States to make the case for Canada and to remind our American friends that they are stronger
00:04:35
working with countries like Canada and the United Kingdom than they are pushing those natural allies away.
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>> It appears that the United States have made the decision to kind of go it alone
00:04:46
in the world. I mean, I was at Davos and I saw what Trump said. I saw a variety of things in the leadup to there talking
00:04:53
about taking Greenland, turning Canada into one of the United States 51st states. Is that what he said? 51st
00:05:00
state. >> That's never going to happen. >> It seems to be very adversarial. And
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through my childhood and through my adulthood, over the last 30 years, the US has always been the strong ally, not
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an individualistic isolated force in the world. What's what's going on here?
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>> I think that is a very big strategic mistake. Uh I think America would be
00:05:19
better off working with the the traditional Western alliance that helped win the Cold War. Uh we had a very big
00:05:25
menace as a nuclear armed Soviet Union that was expansionary. Its empire was pushing eastward into Europe and the
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response of the United States was to build a strong NATO alliance and then to unleash its economy to just outproduce
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the Soviets and bring them to their knees. In Canada's case, we have everything the United States needs uh if
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they treat us like a friend. We have the fourth biggest supply of oil. >> You can see it here.
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>> That's right. We could uh maybe pull that over here. This is the oil reserves
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by country. As you can see, Canada is number four. And after us is Iraq and then the United States. But if you look
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at the leading five, which of these countries do you think the United States can most rely on? Is it Venezuela, Saudi
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Arabia, Iran, or Iraq? No, it's Canada. It works very well with American refineries and we sell it to the United
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States at enormous price discount. Furthermore, we could build up an enormous reserve of this oil so that if,
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god forbid, the straight of Hormuse were to be closed, just a random example, you're from the American America's
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friends in neighboring Canada would have a couple hundred millions barrels that are already produced and ready for use
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uh if uh if it's needed. So this is really uh kind of rocket fuel for the Canadian economy, but it's strategically
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important for our American friends. We could cooperate better on this if we got a friendly posture and a fully
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tariff-free trade ar arrangement with the US. What's interesting when I look
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at these uh vials of oil that we have on the table and I see that Venezuela's
00:07:08
number one, Saudi Arabia is number two, Iran, Canada, Iraq, and then the US is a
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lot of these countries that have a lot of oil are in conflict with the United States right now.
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>> That's right. >> And it now as I look at this, it seems like I understand why. So, Venezuela, I
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mean, Trump just flew in and took the leader of Venezuela and his wife out of bed and sees the country. Iran, US are
00:07:28
at war with Iran now. Um, Iraq, I mean, that's a a story already. And Canada has
00:07:34
been the other one where it's been incredibly adversarial over the last couple of months. Is this just all about
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oil? >> Frankly, we don't really understand what the dispute with Canada is about because
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we've been a very good and friendly partner to the United States ever since the early 1800s before we even formed as
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a confederation. What I would say to Americans though is you shouldn't have to worry about all of these countries.
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If you're working collaboratively with Canada and you're trading freely with a
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a separate country to the north, then you will not be bound by what happens in these other less stable and arguably
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more hostile countries. What I believe we as Canadians need to do is use our natural resources as leverage to get
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what we want from this administration and future ones. What we want is tariff-free trade for our steel,
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aluminum, lumber, and automobiles. And in exchange for that, we can produce more oil and sell more of it at better
00:08:36
prices to the United States of America. Oil is only one part of it. There's also
00:08:41
the strategic minerals that are necessary for, god forbid, modern warfare, and we have those as well. We
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are a resource superpower, and I want to leverage that to get what we want from the US and from other nations.
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>> I'm looking at the third vial there in the row, Iran. >> Mhm.
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>> Has Trump taken the right course of action in bombing Iran in the way that
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he has? And the other question that's I think on everyone's mind is like, how do
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you get out of this? Is is this going to end? Well, >> the Iranian government has been
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extremely hostile and very dangerous to Canada. They killed 55 Canadian citizens
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and 30 permanent residents by shooting a civilian aircraft out of the sky, PS752,
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uh for reasons we still do not understand and with no explanation whatsoever. They have unleashed agents
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into our communities and streets to harass the Jewish and Persian communities of Canada. and uh they are
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the leading world sponsor of terrorism. It it is absolutely unacceptable for the
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Iranian government to ever acquire nuclear weapons. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only reason that they
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are enriching uranium is for marshall purposes. There's no need to enrich it
00:09:52
to the degree they have in order just to have nuclear power plants. I have no doubt that they were doing it for u the
00:10:00
purpose of developing a weapon and if that were to happen uh it could be catastrophic for neighboring countries
00:10:07
but also for far away lands if given the ability to develop uh long range missiles. So uh we my view and the view
00:10:15
of the Canadian government is that the Iranian government cannot be allowed to develop nuclear weapons and any action
00:10:21
to stop them from doing that is necessary for world peace. Was this action necessary to stop that in your
00:10:27
view? >> I think that the initial actions were definitely necessary, particularly the
00:10:32
bombings four or five months ago to target the nuclear development sites. But I think any actions to degrade their
00:10:39
nuclear capabilities, prevent them from ever achieving them is favorable. And I hope that it will weaken the regime
00:10:45
enough for the people to overtake it and claim control of their country. >> It doesn't look like that's the case. I
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think they've appointed the son of the Ayatollah to lead the country now and
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they seem to be firing at everybody in the region. There was some reports that they might have ballistic missiles that
00:11:00
could reach Europe as well. Yes. And and this is what we have to stop. I mean the
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idea that they are they are carrying out this aggression simply because they've
00:11:08
been attacked is false. They would have eventually carried it out. The question is when and with what means. And if we
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had just sort of slept and waited, we would have ended up with a catastrophe. This is different than North Korea.
00:11:21
North Korea was allowed to get nuclear weapons, but they don't have the same
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celestial fundamentalist ideology there. Ultimately, the regime in North Korea is
00:11:30
interested in its own survival and its power. >> The regime in Thran has a theocratic
00:11:39
dream. They believe that there's an an afterlife in which they could be rewarded for carrying out mass
00:11:45
destruction on what they call the infidels. They don't respond to deterrence the same way that Pyongyang
00:11:52
in North Korea would. There's a far greater risk to them having a nuclear weapon than than even having that in in
00:11:59
a communist totalitarian state like North Korea. But for Canada in this environment, our superpower is again our
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resources. And that's why it has been one of my major obsessions to unblock our resources, get them to tide water,
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accumulate them in a strategic reserve that would allow us to really flex our energy muscles in environments like this
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and also reduce dependence on regime like Iran, like Saudi Arabia, like Venezuela.
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>> If Trump had called you and asked for your support, had you been leading the
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government of Canada, would you have given the support? This is the big conversation at the moment in the UK
00:12:37
because K Starmmer was reluctant to send troops originally and it seems to have irked Trump in an interesting way.
00:12:43
>> So our prime minister did support the attack and I agreed with Prime Minister
00:12:49
Carney on that point. That is distinct from contributing Canadian soldiers or sailors and air crew. I'm not proposing
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that we send ground troops to Iran and we are not in a position right now to supply a lot of the demands that this
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conflict would require. It depends on what they ask for um before we get an answer from Canada on what what it is
00:13:11
that we can provide. >> You're someone that knows a lot about history. You seem to know a lot about a
00:13:15
lot, frankly. Um and I I don't know a lot about a lot. So when you think through how this could go, it doesn't
00:13:25
appear that the Iranians are going to roll over very easily. The the Iranian leadership are going to roll over very
00:13:31
easily. Trump doesn't appear to be a man that likes taking hits to his ego. So it
00:13:36
doesn't appear that he's just going to pull out and let you know things unravel. Uh and then the third option
00:13:41
one would say is that they double down even further and send troops to the region. What how do you think this plays
00:13:46
out based on everything that you know about both history about Trump and from your pattern recognition?
00:13:51
>> Well, it could go a variety of ways. Remember the first Persian Gulf War,
00:13:55
George Herbert Walker Bush decided that he had downgraded and penalized Saddam Hussein enough for the invasion of
00:14:03
Kuwait. >> He declared victory and he moved on and ultimately that left a lot of stability
00:14:10
in the region. his son then went and and and pursued a full uh out-and-out regime
00:14:15
change and that was a much longer enterprise. Uh the the president will have to decide which of those two Bushes
00:14:22
he uses as a model. But I think that the important thing is to know what the objective is for me. The objective has
00:14:29
to be to make sure that the Iranian government never gets the capacity to send long range nuclear missiles to
00:14:36
countries uh or even short and medium range to Israel for that matter. Beyond that, I think it's up to the Iranian
00:14:43
people to take advantage of the weakness of the regime and rise up and reclaim their country. I I I don't think this
00:14:51
regime has popular support. Uh I know a lot of Iranians, we're blessed to have a
00:14:55
lot of very secular, pro-western Persians who live in Canada, are proudly Canadian, and they will tell you that
00:15:03
there's almost no support for the regime among the people of of Iran. Mhm. >> They need to find a way to overturn the
00:15:10
regime. Uh, and that would that would give a a lot of comfort and peace to the rest of the world, but it would also
00:15:15
give democracy to a deserving people. >> What would you do if you were Trump?
00:15:20
>> Oh, that's a good question. Um, >> and no offense to >> like I said, I would focus on the core
00:15:28
objective of making sure that there's not a nuclear armed Iran without getting
00:15:33
involved in a permanent quagmire. So everything's been bombed now. Fordo has
00:15:37
been bombed. So is this the time to pull out then? >> I think it all depends on the
00:15:41
intelligence they have about the nuclear capacity. That that is the the hinge point. We cannot allow a nuclearpowered
00:15:49
um Iranian military. That is what they they need to determine. >> For me at the moment it looks a little
00:15:54
bit like it's a little bit lose-lose for Trump in an interesting way. And I think
00:15:59
this is also reflecting the fact that nobody really has a perfect answer for what to do next because it's all just
00:16:04
trade-offs. That's right. >> That's right. I mean, that's what the
00:16:08
the great uh Thomas Soul said. There's no solutions, just trade-offs in life.
00:16:12
>> And it's hitting the the price of um gas at the pumps in a big way.
00:16:16
>> Yes. >> A way that concerns you or >> Well, it's funny you should ask because
00:16:21
it shouldn't have to concern Canadians. Our enormous supply of oil should actually insulate us from it. Normally
00:16:29
what what used to happen in Canada is when the global price of oil rose, our dollar would rise with it because people
00:16:36
would be buying more of our oil, which meant they had to first buy our dollar. A more powerful Canadian dollar meant
00:16:42
that we had more buying power for internationally priced commodities like oil and food. So, we used to be
00:16:48
protected from international oil price increases in a way that we're not anymore because our sector is no longer
00:16:56
as strong and as big as it was as a share of our economy. And so, uh, what I want to do is unleash oil production in
00:17:04
Canada, clear, uh, the regulatory bureaucracy, the government gatekeepers, get rid of industrial carbon taxes, and
00:17:13
have a stronger dollar that makes life more affordable and much more geostrategic power in the world.
00:17:19
>> There's a quite significant probability that you could be Canada's next leader.
00:17:24
And for you to achieve all those things you've just described, you'll need to
00:17:26
have, you know, productive relationship with the United States. Trump if all follows the law won't be able to be
00:17:32
elected. So it'll probably be a different leader by the time that you were in power. Although I know that you
00:17:37
know there could be a vote of no confidence which mean that you could get into power earlier.
00:17:41
>> Your relationship with Trump good, bad, indifferent. >> I've never met him.
00:17:46
>> I've never spoken to him. No, I don't have. No. Um I made the decision that uh
00:17:51
we have one prime minister at a time and because we are negotiating a trade deal
00:17:56
or it's more like a review of an existing deal uh I don't want our side as Canadians to be divided even though I
00:18:02
obviously disagree with my prime minister on a whole range of policy issues. I don't want to uh undermine in
00:18:09
any way the the Canadian side of the bargaining table. I would only do that kind of conversation with a teamwork uh
00:18:15
with the current government. But what I've said is that our approach visa be
00:18:19
Trump should be to focus on what we can control. So why not focus on what what we can do at home? Um unlock our
00:18:26
resources, build up a strategic reserve of of minerals that are important to our
00:18:33
American friends, but also to our other allies. Clear the way to export more goods to overseas markets. uh build
00:18:40
alliances with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia uh to diversify and become more self-sufficient.
00:18:48
>> You keep using this word unlock. >> Yes. >> And clear the way.
00:18:51
>> Yes. >> What are you referring to when you say clear the way and unlock?
00:18:55
>> Removing bureau bureaucratic obstacles. Um the the resources we have are
00:19:00
massively profitable for the private sector to mine, refine, store, and ship as long as they can get the permits and
00:19:10
the low enough taxes to do it. So we need to remove those obstacles so that it now becomes uh possible for private
00:19:18
investment, not subsidized by government, no handouts for business, but private investment to unlock and
00:19:25
unblock those resources. You're just saying there you don't want to get in
00:19:28
the way of Mark Carney. >> Well, I I don't want to get in the way of of negotiations with a foreign
00:19:34
country. I obviously my job is to to be his opposition in the House of Commons on domestic issues and even on
00:19:42
international issues, but not to do so in a way that undermines the national interest.
00:19:46
>> A lot of countries aren't like that. It was interesting because you're on Joe
00:19:49
Rogan's show. It's got a global audience. >> Yes. >> So, you know, if you talk about him
00:19:52
there, you're talking about him all over the world. And you said you wouldn't
00:19:55
criticize the leader of the opposition unless you were in Canada. But you know that you know you're reaching everybody
00:20:02
everywhere all the time. >> That's true. >> No, that's true. That's true. But uh I I
00:20:06
just think it's it's a good principle to follow particularly during a negotiation
00:20:11
that's happening across the border in that country. like you know I think it
00:20:15
would be a little different if we were in normal times and there was no trade dispute or if we were in a country with
00:20:20
which we have no particular contention that for me to say something critical about the government's policy back home
00:20:26
would not have any repercussions for the nation but particularly over the next several months while these talks are are
00:20:32
hopefully going to go on uh I want to get the best outcome for Canada and I have to put my country above myself.
00:20:38
>> Why are you better than the current leader of the Canadian government? Well,
00:20:44
what what what is it you offer that is better than what he has to offer? >> My mission is to make Canada the most
00:20:51
affordable uh freest and richest country in the world. My upbringing, I grew up in very
00:20:58
humble beginnings. I grew up surrounded by working-class people. Yeah, these are
00:21:02
my folks. Yeah, that's an old one. >> Got a photo of you there and your your
00:21:06
parents and your is it your stepbrother? Your half brother? >> Half brother. Yes. So, uh it's my dad
00:21:11
and my my mother. or they were school teachers. Uh my brother is my half brother because we came from the same
00:21:16
biological mother but a different biological fathers adopted into the same family. Kind of a complicated story.
00:21:23
>> Your biological mother adopted you at 16 years old. >> Put us up for adoption at 16 years old.
00:21:28
She was 16 and then um then about 3 years later she had another little boy and he Patrick was then uh adopted by
00:21:36
the same parents. >> And they were two teachers that adopted you and Patrick.
00:21:39
>> Yes, that's right. Yeah. I still remember when we went to pick him up. It
00:21:42
was uh so we we went to this um we got a phone call and he said, "There's a
00:21:46
little boy who happens to be half brothers with your with with Pierre. Would you like to to adopt him, too?"
00:21:51
And he said, "Absolutely." So, we went over to this building and we walk into
00:21:55
this room and there were all these rows of babies >> and uh you know, we walked past them and
00:22:01
then we said, they said, "That's him right there." And that was when I met my
00:22:04
brother. You know, we picked him up. That's why I thought that's where babies
00:22:07
came from. There was a store. you know, we go to a store and get your your groceries. There's a store where you can
00:22:11
go and get a baby. That's what I thought cuz that was my first experience with
00:22:15
it. And um we brought him home and and we grew up in working-class neighborhoods. When I was about 3,
00:22:20
fourish, uh we lost everything. We got smashed by high interest rates. My mother had had saved up enough to buy
00:22:28
two little rental properties. We lost those and our home and had to borrow from our grandfather to get a down
00:22:35
payment so we'd have a place to live. My dad was driving this old mobile that was
00:22:39
falling apart and our neighbors were, you know, workingass folks. They were just, you know, electricians, uh, oil
00:22:45
workers, police officers. So, that's those are the people I grew up with. And
00:22:50
I always grew up admiring those those people, uh, admiring what they were able to do and believing that they were
00:22:57
generally taken advantage of by government, never listened to, and definitely and kept on the outside of
00:23:03
decision-m. And my mission has been to bring back what I call the promise of Canada that
00:23:10
uh anyone can achieve anything. It doesn't matter if you start off as an adopted kid uh raised by school teachers
00:23:16
uh or you know an immigrant from Batswana who uh grows up really poor. If you you work at it, you should be able
00:23:23
to buy a house uh launch a business, become a you know a famous global podcaster uh or maybe cure a disease.
00:23:31
And that was what Canada was all about. And that is what I'm trying to reinstate.
00:23:36
>> What age do you get to meet your biological mother for the first time? >> 21 22. My adopted mother was very
00:23:44
gracious because I said I won't meet my biological mother without the permission
00:23:50
of my adopted mother. She did all the work of raising me. all the hardships, all of my she put up with all of my
00:23:56
rambunctiousness and teenage years and uh drove me to hockey practice and you know emptied her bank account to pay for
00:24:03
our food and stuff. So I did not want her to feel like she was going to be left behind or forgotten about or
00:24:09
replaced. And I asked her, you know, would you be okay if I met her? And she said, "Yes, of course, cuz I won't
00:24:15
always be here and I always want you to have a mother." And I thought that was
00:24:18
um a really incredible thing to do because it's so big part such a big part of um a mother's identity is that they
00:24:27
are the mother of that child. But to have a love that's so much deeper than that personal identity or interest is
00:24:36
something I'll always remember. It's one of the most gracious things I've ever
00:24:38
seen. >> I can see the emotion in your face as you say it. >> Yeah. >> It's still there.
00:24:43
>> Yeah. I hadn't thought about that in a while. What beautiful people.
00:24:51
>> Yes, we're very blessed. And uh um and it's and it's it's it's people
00:24:56
like these that inspire me that uh keep me going in in uh in this crazy world of
00:25:02
politics. >> So you get to meet your biological mother at 21, 22. >> Yeah, around that.
00:25:07
>> Yeah. >> What does one say? What are the questions one needs to ask if any?
00:25:15
I'm trying to remember. We went on we went on a bit of a road trip from uh Ottawa to Montreal and we just got to
00:25:21
know each other. Uh she had a lot of uh questions about how my life had been and
00:25:27
uh I had a lot of questions about our our biological family, about her father who was a really great man. I would go
00:25:33
on to meet a great Irishman and um the circumstances that led to my my conception and and birth. And I
00:25:43
really came to understand her decision to put me up for adoption. And I've never been resentful for it at all. She
00:25:48
she was 16. She just lost her mother to a heart attack. She um didn't have a lot
00:25:55
of means. And she just made a selfless decision that we would have more opportunity if we were raised by someone
00:25:59
else. >> Did you ever learn anything about your biological father? >> Yes. Yeah. He he works at at a um a
00:26:09
concrete plant in British Columbia. And so I went and met him. He's a great father with children that that he
00:26:14
subsequently had and raised and and so he he's a very good man as well. And my
00:26:19
my adoptive father is a a teacher and uh he gave me a lot of uh wonderful lessons
00:26:25
and I think is responsible for my way with words. >> Marlene and Donald. >> That's right.
00:26:31
>> So Marlene's your adopted mother. Donald's your adopted father. They
00:26:34
divorce when you're 12 years old. >> Yes. It would be around that time. I was
00:26:38
in grade five. very difficult time for parents to divorce. Very difficult time. I remember
00:26:43
that that period of life very very clearly because I remember one day my parents coming to me and telling me that
00:26:48
they didn't love each other anymore that they were going to get a divorce. They
00:26:50
didn't. >> Okay. >> But I remember bit which you know I think did enough damage for but it was
00:26:55
around that age and I I remember where I was stood in the house. I remember what
00:26:59
I was wearing when they said that to me cuz it's earthshattering. >> It is actually.
00:27:04
>> I just can't I can't unforget it. It was it was traumatizing. Well, we were my
00:27:08
dad told me and he wanted to tell me alone. So, he we we got into uh the car. He said he wanted to take me for a drive
00:27:15
and we drove to the local corner store and we parked in the car and he told me that there. But it is very traumatizing
00:27:21
and um but at the same time like they were very very good parents. So, I I I don't judge them for how they ended up
00:27:30
uh apart. Uh we were very blessed. Uh, you know, they gave me a great start in life. Even though they weren't together,
00:27:37
they they loved us very much and they gave us all all they could. >> And Donald would would eventually come
00:27:42
out as gay. >> That's right. >> One would assume that he was dealing
00:27:44
with the conflict of feelings. >> Yes. >> For much of the time, >> he had been raised in a very devotly
00:27:51
French Catholic household and that's why we have a French name. And before he got
00:27:55
married, he'd even consider going into the priesthood and he so he was a very
00:27:58
devoutly Catholic person. He genuinely loved my mother, but obviously he wasn't
00:28:03
programmed uh that way. You know, he has a wonderful partner and we're friends
00:28:07
with uh very close with him and his partner Ross right now. >> Do you see how that's changed you as a
00:28:13
man um as you've grown up, whether it's your sort of your perspective on what
00:28:17
love and romance is or anything else? I think that if everything just been, you know, white picket fences and, you know,
00:28:24
hu, you know, totally predictable and as then then I wouldn't be the kind of
00:28:29
person I am today. I think it's also, you know, it's it's like you I would you
00:28:34
have been as successful as you are if you had had a very easy childhood? I doubt it. I bet all the the hardships
00:28:40
that you had and the the twists and turns that took you from Batswana to the United Kingdom and and then onward
00:28:47
probably gave you some superpower. And so uh this I think it gave me the chance to understand that you have you don't
00:28:53
judge people. You you love them for who they are. My parents also taught me an important lesson that uh Shakespeare
00:29:01
says to thine own self be true. Um my mother had when she was a a small baby, she was in a car accident and her
00:29:10
fingers were burned off and she had horrible scars um horrible burns on her hand at the time. And as I got to my
00:29:18
adolescence, I said to my dad, um did it ever bother you when you started dating
00:29:22
her that she she had this injury? And he said, "No, because it didn't bother her. She was totally at peace and
00:29:31
she never hid it." It wasn't long after we met that I forgot it was even there.
00:29:36
And the message that I took from that is be yourself. Don't try to hide the scars. Scars are the trophies of
00:29:44
survival. So those are some of the the lessons that my mother and father taught me. And
00:29:49
my dad was the same about who he was. He just lived his life unapologetically and
00:29:55
openly and he never apologized for who he was. And that has stayed with me. When you speak of Marlene, you you speak
00:30:01
up with her with a great fondness and expression in your face that you know I sit I've sat here six 700 times. So you
00:30:06
get to see who matters most to people in their lives just by looking at their face.
00:30:12
And she's she's clearly on the podium. >> Yeah. She's a very feisty little lady,
00:30:18
very short and very uh very forceful. She she taught me a lot about being, you know, pugnacious and fighting for what
00:30:26
you want and what you need in life. and um and we argued a lot when I was a kid and I think that maybe forged some of my
00:30:35
current uh political uh argumentation as well. My wife is a has a big part of it
00:30:40
as well. She's a very strong feisty intelligent lady with an incredible upbringing as well. She's a a refugee
00:30:47
from Venezuela and came with really nothing. And so she has this sort of maggyver like skill set to to get
00:30:54
anything done no matter how difficult the logistics. So I've been very very uh
00:30:59
blessed with strong women around me. >> At a very young age, it appears that you
00:31:04
took a a liking to politics. I mean you I mean you mentioned hockey first and Marlene taking you to hockey. I've got a
00:31:12
found a couple of photos of you playing hockey which I found to be quite interesting but um
00:31:15
>> yes >> but politics when did politics come into your your psyche?
00:31:20
>> I would have been uh kind of in my mid- teens. Well, I I got into football, hurt
00:31:25
my back in football, so I couldn't stay on the team. My mother had always gone
00:31:30
to these sort of local conservative meetings. Um sometimes just bringing baked goods or uh attending a volunteer
00:31:37
meeting. And I said, "Well, why don't you bring me to one of those cuz I'm
00:31:40
bored out of my skull." And she did. This gives me meaning. This gives me purpose. I want to go and pursue this.
00:31:46
So, I started getting more and more involved. I got an internship uh making almost no money and uh and dressing up
00:31:53
in a used suit and really threw myself fully into this mission. >> One of the books that I um I realized
00:32:00
you'd read at that time from some research is this book Adam Smith the theory of moral sentiments.
00:32:05
>> Yes. So this is this really this book has to be accompanied by its more famous
00:32:12
sister book which is the wealth of nations which that's the book that most people know Adam Smith for. think of him
00:32:18
as kind of the father of capitalism because in 1776 he wrote this book which described what
00:32:25
we now call the free market system. And this was a really revolutionary idea because up until then we basically had
00:32:32
various forms of feudalism. >> What's that? >> Where a small group of lords and knights
00:32:37
and aristocrats control all the land and the the the great masses do all the work. And so you called them surfs. They
00:32:46
would uh do all the heavy labor and then the lords of the manor would would take
00:32:50
all of the benefit. Along came the system of free enterprise that Adam Smith describes which is basically it
00:32:58
has a very simple premise voluntary exchange of work for wages, product for payment and investment for interest. And
00:33:06
that the economy rather than being guided by the iron fist of the king or the state is guided by the invisible
00:33:13
hand of the free market. And this had been it had been thought that this was crazy. How could the economy just sort
00:33:19
of run itself? And the answer is through price signals. If the price of something
00:33:23
goes up, people just automatically start making more of it. And if you need more
00:33:27
workers to make that thing, well, you raise the wages and all of a sudden, what do you know? The workers arrive.
00:33:32
And this system is absolutely ingenious. Like, it's why when you go into a coffee
00:33:37
shop and you buy your coffee, you say thank you. They don't say you're welcome. They say thank you because they
00:33:43
have something worth more to them than they had before, the money, and you have something worth more to you than you had
00:33:48
before. And this voluntary exchange puts everyone on equal scale. Even if you're
00:33:52
a massive corporation, you want to sell something to a 15-year-old kid, you have
00:33:56
to convince them that's worth more than the cost. So, everybody has to be better
00:34:00
off in the exchange for it to occur. And that was how free enterprise formed. And
00:34:05
it has led to a spectacular increase in the quality of living and the economic growth 200fold increase in economic
00:34:12
growth in the in the free enterprise era versus the feudal era. So a lot of people thought Adam Smith is only
00:34:19
interested in a in a system where people are out serving themselves their self-interest. That's what they took
00:34:26
from the statement in the wealth of nations that it is not from the b benevolence of the brewer, the baker or
00:34:32
the butcher that we get our meal but from his own self-interest. But that was only half the story. The
00:34:39
other half was in this book called the theory of moral sentiments in which he explains how self-interest overlaps with
00:34:49
virtue. So what he said is that we have something called fellow feeling which is
00:34:56
to say we feel for the other person and we feel good when someone else does good. It's why we explain that you know
00:35:05
people donate to charity or they leave the door open for a stranger or they might help an injured person uh on the
00:35:12
street because they feel bad when they see someone else their fellow suffering and they feel good when they see him
00:35:18
succeeding. And that's why it's called sentiments because you feel these
00:35:21
things. I saw this in my own son. He um for the first time he got a little toy and he gave it to his sister. It was the
00:35:28
first gift he'd ever given his life. And he was so happy. Like he literally ran
00:35:33
in a big circle around our the foyer of our of our residence and just laughing and screaming. It just made him so
00:35:39
happy. Happier than she was to even receive it. And this is the best of human nature that his interest, his
00:35:45
happiness was served by seeing his his sister better off. And this is really laid out in some detail in the theory of
00:35:53
moral sentiments. And it for me it's like it like brings together all of human nature in one place. Now he's not
00:36:01
naive. He does accept that there are bad, you know, dark angels in our nature, but he gives the only plausible
00:36:07
explanation that I have seen about how you intersect self-interest with altruism.
00:36:14
>> And how did that change your perspective and therefore you know your policies and
00:36:18
your career? I have found that those who push a socialist ideology have a gross contradiction
00:36:29
in their view of human nature. They say that human beings are wretched, self-interested, greedy when they're in
00:36:38
the private voluntary economy, but they're angels when they're in the governmental economy. And therefore they
00:36:44
argue that the government should just control everything because then we have all these angels that will decide for
00:36:50
us, decide what we get to where how our money is spent, what we're supposed to
00:36:53
believe in the modern day what kind of vehicles we drive, what we should think. Um but that is a a huge contradiction.
00:37:02
If a if a man if man is not capable of deciding for himself, surely he's not
00:37:06
capable of deciding for others. And I think the worst the worst vices in human nature come out when there is too much
00:37:13
power and concentrated in their hands. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my ideology is that we should disperse
00:37:22
power that it should be a bottom-up system with as much freedom and agency as humanly possible that people should
00:37:28
be free to choose for themselves and that the go the purpose of the government is to do only those things
00:37:34
people cannot do for themselves. I guess if there's, you know, socialists listening now, they might think, well,
00:37:40
we tried this sort of capitalistic approach to the economy and it's resulted in us being able to buy less uh
00:37:47
food and vegetables for our money. It's mean the price has gone up at the pumps.
00:37:51
People are struggling. It seems that inequality has widened and the the working class seem to be struggling more
00:37:57
now than ever before. They can't buy homes anymore like my my parents or my grandparents could could have. So
00:38:03
clearly we need socialism they would argue because the current system has not worked.
00:38:08
>> Well, what we have now is socialism for the very rich. We have governments that
00:38:13
are actively redistributing wealth from the working class to the very very wealthy. And that is why we see record
00:38:22
inequality. Government is actively intervening in the economy to forcefully redistribute wealth up the chain.
00:38:30
>> Up the chain. >> Absolutely. And there are countless examples of it. When they block home
00:38:34
building with heavy regulations, they limit the supply of homes. Those who have mansions therefore are wit richer
00:38:39
because their houses are worth more. But young people, newcomers, working-class people can't actually get a home. Uh
00:38:46
that is a one example of state intervention. Well, we could do maybe do an illustration here.
00:38:51
>> Okay. So, this is um this is the total amount of land in Canada. >> Yes.
00:38:55
>> Where homes could be built. And actually this is quite reflective I think of the
00:38:59
much of the western world even the UK >> and this is a penny. >> Yes.
00:39:03
>> Do you you understand this demonstration? >> Yes. I think what you're trying to say
00:39:06
is that this is about how much land we live on. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So um Canada is a great example of this
00:39:13
because we have 10 times as much land per person as the second closest G7 country. And yet we have the fewest
00:39:22
homes per capita to live in. And why is that? It's because that the vast majority of the cost that goes into
00:39:28
building a new home is not land, labor, or lumber. It's government. It's
00:39:36
government taxes, fees, charges, uh, bureaucracy, lobbyists, consultants. So if you think
00:39:43
of this home here, this home here in Canada, when you buy this house, more of the money for your
00:39:51
purchase would go to bureaucrats in office buildings than to the carpenters, electricians, and plumbers who actually
00:39:58
build the home. >> Why? How? >> Because the bureaucracy has grown like
00:40:02
um any organism in nature which seeks to to survive and multiply. They uh give us
00:40:08
the second slowest building permits of any country in the OECD. They charge enormous development taxes which started
00:40:16
out just to pay for plumbing and and roads for the the related housing but now have grown into just a huge cash cow
00:40:25
for local governments because sales taxes still apply on most new homes. And all of that gets consp.
00:40:36
In fact, we uh we are the most expensive in the G7 even though we should be it should be dirt cheap to own a home in
00:40:42
Canada because we have the most dirt to build on. Uh and my goal is to remove all of that bureaucracy speed have the
00:40:51
fastest permits in the world and and make it tax-free to build homes so that everyone can afford one. I was reading
00:40:57
some stat that said, again, I might butcher this a little bit, but it said that Canada needs to build between four
00:41:04
roughly 450,000 new homes every single year until 2035. >> Yes. >> Just to restore affordability.
00:41:11
>> That's right. And we're building about 240,000 per year. So, we need to roughly
00:41:18
double our home building to do that. The good news is we have 100,000 Well, it's
00:41:23
not good news. We have 100,000 unemployed construction workers who'd be happy to pick up a hammer and start
00:41:29
building. We have hundreds of billions of dollars of investment that's ready to
00:41:33
do it. We have an abundance of land. What we need are fast permits and low taxes so that we can unlock that
00:41:38
building. >> What is the case for slow permits? >> There isn't one.
00:41:43
>> There isn't one. >> Zero. There is no benefit to having slow permits. They do not protect the
00:41:48
environment. They do not uh protect public safety. We used to build houses um a lot faster and they didn't fall
00:41:56
down. After the Second World War, permits were almost instantaneous. We had a massive buildup of homes so that
00:42:02
our returning veterans could have a place to live. In many neighborhoods of Canada, those homes are still standing.
00:42:07
They have not collapsed. There's no I'm not saying we get rid of building codes.
00:42:12
They should all have to follow standards of environmental responsibility and be fire resistant and and safe. But it
00:42:20
doesn't it shouldn't take seven years to approve a subdivision to do that. We we
00:42:23
know how the the developers know how to build according to the rules. They just need quick permits and freed up land to
00:42:30
do it. >> You'd think now with AI you'd be able to approve these permits within minutes.
00:42:34
>> Look, with all the technology, housing should be so much cheaper than it than
00:42:38
it was before. Uh in fact, everything should be so much cheaper. But this is another area where government is re
00:42:45
redistributing wealth from the working class to the super rich. It's the monetary inflation where we're creating
00:42:53
cash at a far faster rate than we're creating the stuff that cash buys. We've
00:42:58
in Canada increased the number of homes over the last 10 years by 13%. But we've
00:43:04
increased the money supply by 100%. In other words, there is now eight the the growth in the money supply is eight
00:43:11
times faster than the growth in the growth in the housing supply, >> which means for the average person that
00:43:17
it bids up the price. Now, you might say, well, if everybody's equally getting their share of that money, then
00:43:24
who cares? But they're not. There's something called the Catalon effect,
00:43:28
which is that the first people to touch the money in a uh monetary expansion are
00:43:33
those who are already wealthy and already connected to the financial system. So when government creates cash
00:43:39
to fund its deficits, it doesn't just dump the the bills out of an airplane into a suburban neighborhood. It injects
00:43:45
it into the banking system by buying government bonds at inflated prices. And those who trade in those bonds are the
00:43:51
first to get the cash. Those connected to the to the financial system are the first to borrow it. they get to deploy
00:43:56
it before it loses its value. By the time it trickles down to the workingclass people, it's lost its value
00:44:02
and their wages have been destroyed. And this has been happening on and off throughout all of human history. But
00:44:09
it's been particularly bad in the last 55 years. And that is why I think the
00:44:13
working class across the Western world is so angry. >> Canada have consistently dropped down
00:44:18
the sort of happiness league table. >> Well, actually from 2015 we've gone from
00:44:23
fifth to 25th. the 18th. We went from 18th to 25th just in the last year. >> So you were the fifth happiest country
00:44:30
in the world and now you're 25th. >> That's right. And part of it is food. We
00:44:34
have the worst food price inflation in the G7 today. It's due to a lot of hidden taxes that are baked into food
00:44:41
production. Uh we have an industrial carbon tax that it charges on farm equipment, fertilizer, and uh food
00:44:48
producers. We have a new fuel tax that's just come in. single-use plastic is now
00:44:54
banned, which makes it that so that food goes bad about five days quicker. So, it
00:44:59
sounds kind of very virtuous. We're not going to use plastic anymore, but it
00:45:02
ultimately means food uh goes bad and and somebody pays for that. So, uh we we need I want to get rid of all of those
00:45:09
taxes and fees and unnecessary regulations that do nothing for our health and safety so that we can have
00:45:16
more affordable food. But um more broadly, we have to get rid of the the monetary inflation that I described. As
00:45:24
I said, we've doubled our money supply in Canada from 1.4 trillion to 2.8 trillion in 10 years. So, it is not
00:45:32
actually that these things cost more. It's that the money with which we buy them is worth less
00:45:38
>> because >> because we're creating so much of it. And it's
00:45:41
>> and why why are you doing that? >> To fund deficits >> to pay for debts.
00:45:45
>> That's right. And that's why all government, it's not just Canada, by the
00:45:48
way, it's across the Western world, they're creating cash to fund deficits.
00:45:52
>> And the deficits come from having a big government. >> Yes. >> Government that's too big.
00:45:57
>> That's right. >> That's too involved. >> That's right. And the result is that
00:46:01
we're we're creating cash faster than we grow food, build homes, or produce
00:46:06
energy. And my mission, Stephen, is to flip that. I want us to create more of what kash buys by unblocking food
00:46:15
production, energy production and home building so that we add those things faster than we add what um we add the
00:46:23
cash to the system. >> Why I mean I saw this graph here this chart which is GDP per capita with
00:46:29
international counterparts. So on there it has Canada, United States, OECD and it shows it's quite stark. It shows that
00:46:36
Canada has basically plateaued in terms of GDP per capita. What does for the average person what is GDP per capita?
00:46:42
What does that actually mean? >> It's your income really. It's the it it
00:46:46
ultimately the GDP gross domestic product is the the value of all the things that you produce. If you're
00:46:54
producing more per person over time, people will see their wages rise, their real wages rise. If you don't produce
00:47:02
more per person, then your wages are flat. And so that is what we've effectively had in Canada over the last
00:47:10
10 years. >> Why? >> Because we we are not unlocking our resources. Our biggest industry is oil
00:47:20
and gas and it's locked behind uh very aggressive anti-development laws and bureaucracies because we're we're
00:47:28
blocking home building and because we're overt taxing our population. We're
00:47:31
punishing initiative with high taxes. The good news is that we can reverse all of these things. If we we have the most
00:47:38
prodevelopment, and the fastest permits in the world, if we cut taxes on work, investment, home building, and energy,
00:47:44
then we can massively increase our output of the things that we need to have a good life and the wages that
00:47:51
people earn to buy it. >> This seems to be a familiar story across some Western nations.
00:47:56
>> It is. >> What are those Western nations and what is the thing that they've all got in
00:48:00
wrong in common? Well, I think that it's probably true in the UK and the European Union as well.
00:48:07
Well, let's take Germany. They shut down their nuclear sector and they tried to
00:48:11
effectively drive oil and gas out of their country. The end result was extremely high energy costs. And this
00:48:18
was another intervention that took from workingclass people and gave to the very
00:48:21
rich. Those who were able to get the subsidies for windmills and solar panels got fabulously wealthy, all very
00:48:27
powerful people. But the workers in the in the plants and the mines of rural Germany ended up losing their jobs and
00:48:35
paying higher prices for electricity. All of which, by the way, has been reversed because now the Germans are
00:48:40
back to burning coal. So it did absolutely nothing for the environment. Uh this is another example of government
00:48:46
intervention totally screwing over the working class, a phenomenon across the western world. And this is the big lie.
00:48:53
The big lie is that when government gets big, it gives people their fair share. What it does in fact is it gives the
00:48:58
money and the resources to those who have the most political power. Those people are all rich and it pays for it
00:49:04
by taking from the working class. So my mission in politics is to reverse that entire approach. Have a small government
00:49:10
with big people, a meritocracy that rewards work and a free enterprise system that requires businesses compete
00:49:18
for workers with higher wages and consumers with lower prices. >> I'm looking here at the GDP forecasts
00:49:24
for various countries around the world. In the United States, uh, GDP forecast looks like it's, um, it's been pretty,
00:49:30
you know, pretty strong relative to others. Canada looks like it's going down. 2025 estimates 1.7%,
00:49:37
26 estimates 1.3. The United Kingdom as well seems to have been lagging. Um, both the United States and Canada. And
00:49:45
Germany, as you said, in 2024, their GDP growth was only 0.2, two, which is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and
00:49:51
hundreds of percentages lower than the United States, Canada, or even the UK. But clearly there is a problem with GDP
00:49:57
growth here >> um for Canada, for the United Sta, for the United Kingdom relative to a country
00:50:03
like the United States. It looks like the United States are doing something right.
00:50:06
>> If you look at GDP growth is the main measure. >> Look, um there are some policies that we
00:50:13
can learn from. Um it's not just the United States though. Look at uh look at
00:50:18
Switzerland for example. Uh the Swiss are among the wealthiest in the world. They have the best money, the lowest
00:50:23
inflation. They have almost no inflation in Switzerland by the way. They have very strong money. The the Swiss Frank
00:50:30
is the best currency in the world, better than the euro or the American dollar. What do they have? Free
00:50:35
enterprise, small government. the share of of the economy consumed by government
00:50:39
spending is significantly lower than anywhere else in the western world um outside of uh outside of Asia and so
00:50:47
they do very well. How is it that the Singaporeans have become one of the wealthiest nations on earth? They have
00:50:52
no resources, literally nothing. They have to import their water for God's sakes. They they took an a swampy uh
00:51:00
mosquitoinfested island and three peoples who were struggling to survive in their homelands and they came
00:51:07
together and created the wealthiest country in the world outside of the Gulf States. Why? They have free enterprise.
00:51:13
They have low taxes. It's easy to start a business. You're rewarded for your
00:51:17
hard work. This is the kind of thing we could be doing. >> So looking at the numbers of Singapore,
00:51:20
Singapore operates in a league of its own, outperforming both the UK, Canada, and the USA in terms of growth. um and
00:51:27
per capita wealth as a hub economy. It is currently riding the wave of the global AI boom because they've enabled
00:51:33
entrepreneurship and it is more than GD from a GDP perspective last year more than double the United States GDP
00:51:40
growth. Um and I mean it's it's left uh Canada and the United Kingdom and even
00:51:45
Switzerland in its tracks in that regard. Interesting. >> It's a spectacular achievement. And I
00:51:50
mean uh Lee Kuanlu who founded the country and created this miracle uh should be studied by every leader in the
00:51:57
world. Um because I don't think there's anyone who's been able to generate such
00:52:00
a a a massive uh increase in the quality of life and to do it with literally no resources whatsoever except for
00:52:09
geography that and they managed to exploit their geography as you said to be kind of like modern-day Nabotans.
00:52:15
They're a trading hub uh for for all of Asia. Every sort of economic policy or
00:52:21
philosophy does have a trade-off. >> I mean, it's one thing you learn as a
00:52:24
podcaster. There's just always trade-offs. And if you're not clear on what the trade-offs are, then they might
00:52:28
surprise you, >> right? >> I mean, that, you know, you can talk about socialism or you can talk about
00:52:32
capitalism, whatever. All of them have trade-offs. What are the trade-offs of your economic
00:52:38
strategy and philosophy? >> Well, the the leadership has to have humility because it has to let go of
00:52:44
power and and and turn it back to the people. And um that is a very hard thing for politicians to do. Um I mean uh no
00:52:51
politician wants to have written on their gravestone. Um he stayed out of the way, left people alone so that they
00:52:57
could do great things without him. Although I think we'd be better off if more of them did. But I should also say
00:53:04
that like there is a role for government. I'm not suggesting that there isn't. There there should be a
00:53:08
basic social safety net that provides the things that people who are less advantaged would not be able to have for
00:53:15
themselves to make sure that everyone has health care even if uh they can't afford to pay for it. That there's basic
00:53:20
schooling and roads and infrastructure. But what happens is that once you get beyond providing those basics and
00:53:27
government starts to to metastasize into well well uh all kinds of other things that are not its core responsibility
00:53:34
each dollar spent has less and less return and then it turns into a negative return where the more they spend the
00:53:40
more damage they do and I think we're beyond that point on the curve >> because I'm thinking about how
00:53:45
immigration ties into all of this and to GDP growth. I think in Canada from the research I was doing there has been a
00:53:51
decline in birth rates. Yes. >> So there's significantly less people getting married. There's significantly
00:53:57
less people being born. So how does one run their economy when you're not having
00:54:01
new children being born without bringing in lots of immigrants to to help support
00:54:06
that economy? >> Well, first of all, I think we have to ask ourselves why has the birth rate
00:54:12
gone down? And I I would argue that it's economic re reasons. Uh if you cannot
00:54:16
afford a home, then you have no place to raise children. Um, you know, we have this phenomenon of in Canada of
00:54:24
35-year-olds still living in their parents' basements. And h how do you even get a date? I mean, how do you
00:54:30
bring a date home? You know, it's it's a challenge if if you're 35. And these are
00:54:37
great high achieving people who've got jobs, but they just can't afford a place
00:54:42
to live or they're stuck in a a small apartment because that's all their
00:54:48
paycheck will buy them in the way of rent. And so I think for those economic constraints, we we have a lot of young
00:54:55
people who otherwise would love to have children in their late 20s, early 30s who simply have nowhere to raise them.
00:55:02
>> Am I right in thinking that a lot of these western economies have allowed a
00:55:05
lot of people into their countries to make up for the the willingness or desire or the
00:55:11
availability of people to do the sort of low wage jobs? Is this is what is this what's happened globally? Because it's
00:55:17
what people tell me in the UK. Yes, I think I frankly I think that a lot of multinational corporations have abused
00:55:22
the immigration system in order to drive down wages. Um in Canada, for example, the government massively expanded um the
00:55:31
international student and temporary foreign worker programs and that allowed corporations to pay artificially low
00:55:38
wages to people who do not have the same mobility rights and opportunities. and that drove down wages, displaced people
00:55:47
from their jobs and ultimately ballooned housing costs. And so my position is that we need to to cap numbers um and
00:55:55
ensure that the the economy, healthcare and housing grows faster than the population at all times.
00:56:01
>> If you cap numbers, does that mean that these corporations, these entrepreneurs,
00:56:04
these companies don't have enough people to fill the roles in their companies and
00:56:08
therefore have to move somewhere else? What what does it mean? No, we have unemployment. We have people without
00:56:12
jobs. But they just some multinationals don't want to pay full wages. So they
00:56:17
think, well, I just undercut the wage by bringing someone in from a very poor country who's willing to work for a lot
00:56:23
less and who has fewer rights because they can't leave the job to go to another employer. So it's uh kind of
00:56:29
like easy street. And so my view is that when you've got unemployed people and
00:56:34
you're trying to fill your workplace, pay higher wages. Give uh give people a
00:56:38
better return on their work. You've got unemployment. Are those people trained
00:56:42
and skilled and willing to do the jobs that Canada needs them to do? >> Yes, absolutely. I mean, we have 100,000
00:56:48
unemployed construction workers. They could be building the homes that we need built. Uh we have um young people coming
00:56:54
out of um out of high school without a job. We have a 30-year highs in unemployment among youth. They should be
00:57:03
getting those jobs. And you know, Starbucks says, "Well, they don't want
00:57:06
to take them." Well, maybe you're not paying enough. If you're not paying the
00:57:09
right wage, then you're not going to get the right worker. But pay an equivalent
00:57:12
wage and you'll attract a worker who will who will do the job. >> Again, I'm trying to play devil's
00:57:16
advocate here. So, you know, Starbucks increase wages. Yes. Which means that Starbucks then will increase the cost of
00:57:22
a cup of coffee presumably. >> Well, unless they can find more efficient ways to run their systems. You
00:57:28
know, more competition in the system will allow the worker to gain more and the consumer to pay less. and the
00:57:34
entrepreneur in the middle has to find ways to to save and operate more efficiently. That's the magic of the
00:57:39
market is that everybody has a a a vested interest in driving the most value for the lowest cost.
00:57:46
>> One of the interesting ways lots of employers are finding ways to drive
00:57:48
efficiencies is this new technology called AI, >> right? >> And again, maybe somewhat ironically
00:57:53
here, Anthropic, who one of the world's leading AI companies, released a report
00:57:57
two weeks ago. I'll throw the graph up on the screen, but it shows where job
00:58:00
disruption will take place based on how people are currently using their tools. And one of the things they noticed is
00:58:06
that there's been a increase by I think roughly 14% in youth unemployment because entry- levelvel
00:58:12
jobs are the ones often in white collar industries that are being taken out first,
00:58:16
>> right? >> And you hear these things and you go, oh, you know, that's some stats and
00:58:19
whatever and it's, you know, not necessarily tanked the economy yet. But as an employer of hundreds and hundreds
00:58:24
of people all over the world now, I have started to notice that the case for hiring certain groups of people is
00:58:33
becoming much more tricky now because of these tools. And doesn't make me sound
00:58:38
great saying that. It's not that we're not hiring hundreds of people, but
00:58:40
there's this certain set when I look at specifically entry level grads. if they
00:58:45
aren't really AI proficient, they are a lot less appealing in some roles than
00:58:51
people young grads that that are extremely AI proficient. The problem is not many of them are. And that just in a
00:58:57
company like mine, if you're AI proficient, really irrespective of age, and you know how to build this thing
00:59:01
called AI agents, it's kind of like you come with 50 team members of your own.
00:59:06
>> Wow. >> That's what it's like. So, I've got a kid called Cass here. You know, he's a
00:59:10
young guy in his 20 his 20ies. He's built a team of agents that now work for
00:59:15
him. So hiring Cass means I get Cass and his team of agents because he's proficient in that technology. Most of
00:59:22
the workforce hasn't been trained because of the education system to know a thing about this. So it's becoming
00:59:27
increasingly difficult to to hire entry- level people but actually all the way up
00:59:31
the board unless you have deep expertise in a domain which would mean that I can
00:59:36
get Cass to make you the agents. So like on my CFO, you know, for example, you know, 50 50 years working in finance,
00:59:45
etc. deep expertise. I just need her and then she can build out a team of AI agents to work with her. Back in the
00:59:51
day, if you'd got 5 years ago, I would have needed her and her to have a massive team of people, right?
00:59:56
>> I say all this to say that there's a certain group in society, people that
01:00:00
have deep domain expertise and people that are technical that I think are in higher demand than ever before. and
01:00:06
everybody else um as AI continues to replace them through things like autonomous driving and um robotics is
01:00:11
around the corner um is I I think there needs to be a real conversation about what happens to these people.
01:00:17
>> Can I ask you a question? >> So throughout history we've had these
01:00:22
scares where new technological developments have threatened to replace and in reality have replaced certain human
01:00:30
labor. So you had like the during the industrial revolution machines were replacing muscular power and then you
01:00:36
had the lites who came and tried to smash those machines to protect their jobs. In the end they just got different
01:00:41
jobs with higher pay because they could do more with these machines and they didn't have to walk behind a you know a
01:00:47
mule's ass pushing a pushing a plow in the hot sun all day. They had a tractor
01:00:52
that would pull the plow um and so on and so forth. But and then in the in the dotcom era, we were told again that
01:00:59
people are going to lose their jobs to computers. In fact, they were made more productive
01:01:03
by computers. Do you think this time is fundamentally different than those prior
01:01:09
technological revolutions? >> I would say first thing is nobody knows. The second thing I'd say is yes. Okay.
01:01:16
>> And the reason I'd say yes is just the speed of disruption. So unlike the in
01:01:20
the industrial revolution where you know it takes some time for the new technologies to become adopted because
01:01:24
of the nature of their of what those technologies were this technology is built on the internet which has global
01:01:30
distribution. So open claw is a good example of a technology that is very to to simplify it for the audience. It can
01:01:37
do anything on my computer. So if I put a computer here on this table I can text openclaw on WhatsApp
01:01:44
and tell it to go on this podcast right now. Look at the part of the conversation that was most replayed by
01:01:50
the audience. Clip it. Add subtitles to it. Tweet it or send it to my Slack channel. I can get it to I'll tell tell
01:01:56
you something I did the other day. I was in my house in Los Angeles and it was very very hot cuz there's a heat wave at
01:02:01
the moment. So I said to it, can you can you go on take a look at my house online
01:02:06
um buy me a umbrella that I can put because I like to work outside. I actually voiced it this and what it did
01:02:12
is it went on Google Maps. It looked all around my house from all around the outside because it knew where I lived
01:02:16
for some bizarre reason. It knew that I charcoal umbrella at a certain size would suit that table out there. It went
01:02:23
on Amazon, found the charcoal umbrella, it ordered it, arrives at my house, >> and it transacted like you
01:02:28
>> transacted because it had my my login details to transact on this particular
01:02:31
website. So, but it's just, you know, the framing is it can do anything that
01:02:35
you would you would do on a computer. um a lot of people work on computers and the speed of adoption that we're seeing
01:02:41
is is staggering. So my my concern is actually the sort of near-term displacement before we figure out the
01:02:47
types of jobs that um the types of new jobs and then with robotics on the way, you know, you hear someone like Elon
01:02:53
Musk saying that there'll be more humanoid robots than humans, you know, and people say, well, you know, he's
01:03:00
saying that because he's a he's got a vested interest, right? However, what
01:03:04
I'd say is his timelines have sometimes not been right. But when he said he was
01:03:08
going to make those spaceships land on chopsticks, the spaceships eventually >> Oh, he's a brilliant mind. Don't
01:03:14
underestimate him. >> And my car out there drives itself without without intervention. So,
01:03:20
>> I don't know. It's a really interesting time. I can both see why this techn is
01:03:23
going to change the world for the better and I believe it will. But then I'm just
01:03:27
really concerned about certain economies and countries that aren't taking it
01:03:30
seriously because they're so distracted by other things. Like a lot of them race
01:03:34
baiting. A lot of them are like immigration seems to be the winning lever. Like just say the brown people
01:03:38
are the problem. But I'm like maybe the alien is something else. Maybe the alien
01:03:42
is are these agents that are actually going to take our jobs. I believe the basic human need is is meaning to have
01:03:50
the a purpose in life. And often the question we have to ask is how can we guide
01:03:57
this uh revolution in technology so that it empowers people to do things that continue to give them meaning. I think
01:04:05
it was John Adams who said something to the effect of my father studied warfare so that I would have the
01:04:13
security to study commerce. I study commerce so that my children will have the prosperity to study arts. If these
01:04:21
new systems give us the ability to focus on the things that we love doing that give us meaning in our lives and that
01:04:28
could be a different thing for each person while at the same time supplying with us
01:04:33
with a lot of our material needs. It could be very positive. If it simply strips away our own utility and leaves
01:04:40
lots of people without the ability to work at all, then it could be very very dangerous to to our our our lives. So,
01:04:47
uh I think that we have the public policy objective is to to to ensure that it becomes an enabler of humanity, not a
01:04:54
replacement for it. >> So, you could come into power in is it 2029 if there's no uh overthrowing of
01:05:01
the the current leader? >> 2029 is going to be an interesting time. uh if these sort of forecasts that we're
01:05:07
getting from some of the world's leading experts in artificial intelligence and
01:05:10
robotics come true, have you thought much yet about how you would counteract that? What you would do to make sure
01:05:17
that there isn't huge job job disruption because you know a lot of a lot of people like Sam Alman have suggested
01:05:23
through their actions that they might support things like universal basic income. In fact, Sam Alman's Sam Alman
01:05:29
being the founder and um co-founder of OpenAI, which makes Chat GBT. I think his other startup is called WorldCoin,
01:05:36
which uses your retina scan to to validate that you're a real human being so that you they can distribute money to
01:05:44
people because in a world of AI, we're going to need to find a way to distribute wealth. And if you listen to
01:05:49
Elon, he says, "We're going to live in the age of abundance where working is
01:05:51
going to be optional." He says, "Now, if you're a surgeon and you're training to
01:05:55
be a surgeon," he says, "Absolutely don't. Because in a couple of couple of
01:05:58
years time there's going to be no human that's better than any AI surgeon.
01:06:03
>> Wow. So if these things are true like surely you should be making plans
01:06:08
and you know when a lot of smart you know I know they have an incentive they're raising money and they want they
01:06:13
have a certain narrative which helps them raise money but if they are right the future looks very different from the
01:06:20
past. >> That's true. >> Do you have a plan? I I have principles that I would apply
01:06:26
as these technologies present themselves. And the principle for me is how do we make sure that the AI
01:06:34
enables and empowers people to make more decisions for themselves and have more freedom and a and um to pursue their own
01:06:42
meaning rather than replacing and rendering them um giving them a sense of of lost
01:06:50
meaning and purpose. And so, do I think it's great that every minimum wage worker might have a personal assistant
01:06:58
and a chauffeur vehicle? I do. Because that that would make more of their life uh uh they could spend on the the things
01:07:05
that thrill them and make them happy and less of their life would be spent on the
01:07:09
drudgery of having to drive in a traffic jam or uh or, you know, sweep their floor. Um but uh at the same time we
01:07:17
have to make sure that that people have the ability to work and contribute and and give themselves a sense of meaning
01:07:23
in their lives. So the other thing I would say is that as these technologies bring down costs, those savings should
01:07:31
be passed on to people. They should not be inflated away. The government should not use this as an opportunity to just
01:07:36
print more cash to reflate the cost of living. We should actually seek as our goal to lower the cost of living, make
01:07:43
life more affordable, make our dollars go further, which is which hasn't happened in in generations. And so if
01:07:50
technology is going to allow us to produce more for less, then let's make sure that the workingclass people
01:07:54
actually enjoy that benefit rather than having it inflated away. It is quite concerning that you know if wealth does
01:08:01
acrew to these big companies and you know people like Elon who incredible entrepreneur
01:08:06
>> is going to become the world's first trillionaire right >> I don't think he'll be the last the way
01:08:11
things are going with with artificial intelligence that and then if there is job disruption
01:08:17
I do think there's going to potentially need to be some government intervention
01:08:22
corrective government intervention do you not I don't know >> nobody knows exactly what's going to
01:08:26
happen I mean it was you know um Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prizewinning uh economist who embarrassingly predicted
01:08:35
that the internet would have no more impact on our lives than the fax machine. >> And and he's a Nobel Prize uh economist,
01:08:41
I think, from Princeton or Yale or something. So nobody's Nostradamus on these things, but we have to have
01:08:48
guiding principles and and mine are the rules around technology should always be
01:08:52
geared towards giving people more agency, more meaning, and more control over their lives and not less.
01:08:59
>> It's funny cuz I don't hear it reflected enough in political discourse. I hear us
01:09:03
focusing on other things. And one of those things is immigration. across the western world, the subject of
01:09:09
immigration seems to be a bit of a winning formula for political leaders. If I think about the UK, what Trump said
01:09:16
about, you know, being invaded by rapists and murderers from the the southern border, do you feel that it's a
01:09:22
it's a sort of a weaponized, divisive tool for people to get elected, complaining about the brown people or or
01:09:29
foreigners? I >> I'll just give you the Canadian experience. So for roughly 200 years, we
01:09:34
had the most successful immigration system in the world by far. In fact, other countries, both Republicans and
01:09:40
Democrats in the United States used to say, "We need to study the Canadian system because it has been so
01:09:44
successful." We had a point system that that measured whether someone would be a
01:09:48
good fit for our labor market, whether they would would integrate well into our our system. And overwhelmingly, people
01:09:54
integrated, intermarried, uh, you know, my wife is a is a refugee from Venezuela. That is not an uncommon story
01:10:01
in Canada. What we encountered was a very sudden and inexplicable increase in the numbers uh in the period from 2021
01:10:09
to 2024 that was strictly out of line with our our ability to absorb people into
01:10:17
housing, healthcare, and jobs. And this upset the the social piece on immigration that we had had for two
01:10:23
centuries leading up to it. And um now everyone across the political spectrum agrees that it went too far too fast.
01:10:33
And the approach that we're taking is that uh that we have to make it a lawful
01:10:38
system. It has to follow the rules. You people have to come in legally in numbers that we can absorb and
01:10:45
ultimately integrate into jobs, society, and uh our way of life. population cannot grow faster than the housing
01:10:53
stock or you'll run out of places to live. It can't grow faster than the
01:10:57
number of jobs or you'll run out of paychecks for people. And so we need a a
01:11:02
controlled orderly system that's both compassionate and common sense. >> It's such a divisive subject. You've
01:11:08
seen what's happened here in the United States with ICE, >> right? Yeah. It it's a it's a different
01:11:13
situation in the US. Um we the immigration problem in the US goes back many many years. uh many many years of
01:11:21
chaos at their the southern border. We didn't have that in Canada. Like that
01:11:25
was unheard of. We we had roughly 1% of population immigrating to Canada for 200
01:11:33
years. It was uncontroversial in Canada up until this very strange, inexplicable
01:11:40
spike that really only helped very wealthy landlords and employers that wanted to drive wages down and rents up.
01:11:49
they were the only beneficiaries of the extreme increase in numbers. >> If you don't get the replacement rate
01:11:56
back up to a level where you're having enough kids in Canada, >> does it track that eventually you would
01:12:01
have to rely on more immigration to solve for the sort of GDP issues? >> Look, economic immigration of
01:12:09
high-skilled um people to our country is is has always been successful and uh nobody resents that. Uh, one of the
01:12:19
things that we have to do though is when people get to Canada, they have to be able to fulfill their potential. In
01:12:23
Canada today, we have these gatekeepers that block immigrant professionals from even working in their field. So, for
01:12:30
example, we have 20,000 immigrant doctors and 32,000 immigrant nurses who can't work in medicine because they
01:12:37
can't get a license to practice. There's this incredibly bureaucratic system they
01:12:41
have to go through that takes eight or nine years to prove that they actually have the qualifications.
01:12:46
I have it's so crazy that when I went in for my eye surgery, there's a technician
01:12:50
there who literally flies to the UAE to do eye surgeries 10 days a month and then comes back to his family in Ottawa
01:12:59
where we only let him work as as a technician. And so UAE is a more technologically advanced country than
01:13:06
Canada. And eyeballs are the same in the UAE as they are in Canada. immigrants in
01:13:12
Canada have historically been more educated than our Canadian-born population just in terms of their
01:13:18
credentials, but have not been able to fulfill their work because our licensing system shuts them out. So, I want to fix
01:13:25
that with a merit-based test that gets them into the high-paying jobs that will actually strengthen our economy.
01:13:32
Much of the reason most people haven't posted content or built their personal
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busy and if you've never posted something before there's so many factors
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in your psychology that stop you wanting to post what people will think of you am
01:13:48
I doing this right is the thing I'm saying absolutely stupid all of these result in paralysis which means you
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change in your company, head to the diary.com to inquire and our team will be in touch. What is the biggest threat
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do you think to the western world and the western way of living? Cuz people often, you know, they point at Iran,
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they say China, they say Russia. >> I think it depends on what China decides
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to do. I China is a a spectacular and brilliant civilization with so much to contribute to to world harmony. if
01:16:44
that's their choice. If the if the government decides that it's going to to
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direct the immense um successes of that country towards um trading and working with other countries, then there's no
01:16:57
nothing to worry about. But if it is a very aggressive Bellose approach using technology for espionage uh interference
01:17:06
in foreign countries as they have done in Canada uh invading Taiwan then China and Beijing in particular the regime
01:17:14
could become the biggest risk and threat to our country and our world. >> What does history say about this kind of
01:17:20
moment in time where there's seemingly two world powers? Mhm. Well, there is an
01:17:24
incredible book called Thusidities Trap uh which a professor named Allison um said that throughout history he took I
01:17:33
think 20 occasions where the where an incumbent superpower was caught up on by a challenging superpower and in I think
01:17:45
the majority of cases it did end up in war and now he said it's not necessary
01:17:50
though and it doesn't have to happen. it can be avoided and uh he lays out a plan
01:17:55
in his book for it to be avoided. I think it can be avoided as well if uh Beijing can be made to understand that
01:18:02
it is in in the interest of China to be part of the community of nations to work
01:18:06
collaboratively to trade freely to uh to be a partner rather than an enemy and I
01:18:12
hope they make the right decision. Is it fair to say that the United States is really at war with China now already,
01:18:18
but just through proxy wars and other types of sort of economic wars? And because now that they both have nuclear
01:18:23
weapons, you can't really have a direct conflict, can you? >> Well, let let's put it this way. Um,
01:18:33
Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, these are all countries that were in the realm of influence of
01:18:40
Beijing. and um they're the countries where the United States is pursuing uh change. So
01:18:48
there there is the the war that we watch on the evening news and the the real interest behind them that that is
01:18:56
driving it. >> Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons, does it? >> No, we do not.
01:18:59
>> Why? >> We made a decision, I think it was about I I want to say about 40 or 50 years ago
01:19:05
not to pursue nuclear arm. We didn't think we had any need need for it. lots
01:19:09
of nuclear power, lots of uranium, but we don't use it for for weaponry. >> Do you think Canada should have nuclear
01:19:15
weapons? >> I don't see a need for that. Um I don't know what we would get from it. We don't
01:19:21
uh we don't have any desire to to threaten anyone with nuclear weapons. So, um uh I don't I don't see a purpose
01:19:29
for that right now. >> What you think? >> Sounds quite Canadian. >> That's true. But listen, we are a
01:19:39
warrior nation. Uh make no mistake about it. We were in the World Wars two years
01:19:42
before the Americans. Uh and we we are we're kind of like a a golden retriever.
01:19:49
Uh we're friendly. We're likable. Uh we like to get along, but if provoked, we
01:19:54
will fight back. >> Canada is building up its military. >> Absolutely.
01:19:58
>> Why? because there's a consensus that we have not done enough to to protect our
01:20:03
territory from the incursions of hostile powers and uh we often say in Canada if
01:20:10
you don't use it you lose it. Uh there's large territories of our country that
01:20:14
are very hard to live in. We have an incredible Inuit population but obviously you know you can't heavily
01:20:21
populate the Arctic archipelago with industry and stuff. So, how do you assert sovereignty over those treasured
01:20:29
uh territories? Well, you have to have a military presence there. >> What's changed
01:20:34
>> for Canada? It's it's that we want to maintain and ensure that we can make our
01:20:39
own decisions without relying on the Americans >> because the Americans have expressed
01:20:44
that they are maybe not going to be as collaborative and friendly >> and we want to be able to decide for
01:20:48
ourselves. We want to be masters in our own home. uh in Quebec they say mashu and uh so if we want to control our own
01:20:56
destiny and territory we have to pro we have to be able to protect ourselves. It
01:20:59
has been very good for Canada to be next door to the biggest military power the world has
01:21:05
ever seen and have friend friendly relations that go back to um the early 1800s before we were even a country. We
01:21:13
had largely friendly relations with this enormous power. But what has become clear is that we cannot simply rely on
01:21:21
the Americans to protect us. We have to be able to protect ourselves. And that requires a massive military buildup for
01:21:27
a country of our size, the second biggest country anywhere in the world. We have the longest oceanic coastline,
01:21:32
even longer than Russia. So that takes money and it takes a a buildup like we've never seen. And that's what we're
01:21:40
we as Canadians agree has to happen. Now, >> this is in part because of Trump.
01:21:45
>> In part, yes. because Trump threw the election and then thereafter said that
01:21:48
he was going to make Canada an American state >> which is never going to happen.
01:21:54
>> But that you know with the the leader of the most powerful military on earth says
01:22:00
even jokingly that they are about to take your country you can laugh but at the same time one if I was leading
01:22:09
Canada I'd go wait is this possible? Are we ready to defend ourselves? we uh as
01:22:14
Canadians react very badly to that and uh we're we're we're not going to uh
01:22:19
ever be the 51st state or or any part of the United States of America. The American people are our friends. They've
01:22:25
been our top trading partner, our closest ally. As uh President Kennedy said, um history has made us friends,
01:22:33
economics has made us partners. Uh geography has made us neighbors and necessity has made us allies. those whom
01:22:41
nature have thus joined together. Let no man put us under. But he understood that
01:22:46
that Canada was a separate country that had its own unique interests. And I think the American people understand
01:22:53
that as well. I I think the American people are very fond of Canada as a neighbor and friend. Um but they
01:22:59
understand we will always be a sovereign country. >> You would have been negotiating with
01:23:03
Trump right now if um the election, the recent election in Canada had gone your way. This is a pretty uh pretty stark
01:23:11
graph that I've just lid you. It shows that you were leading in the polls seemingly up until the very very last
01:23:17
moment in the elections. >> Is that accurate that poll? >> Yeah, I think that's probably a weighted
01:23:22
average, but yeah, I think more or less. >> What happened? >> Well, if you look what happened, we our
01:23:26
support didn't drop that much. Uh the other parties collapsed in behind the Liberal party and uh it was largely due
01:23:34
to the uh the Canada US issue that you raised >> really. So, but at the same time, we got
01:23:40
the biggest vote count we had ever received and the highest share of vote that we've received since 1988. So, we
01:23:48
did perform very well. Our opponents performed even better. And now we have to build on the solid base that we've
01:23:55
accumulated in order to win the next election. >> Just as the election comes into the home
01:24:00
stretch, your polling basically stays the same. >> Um, slight little bit of a drop, but
01:24:06
roughly stays the same. What caused the drop in that sort of home stretch there?
01:24:11
Do you think >> what one of the challenges I had was I wanted to focus on the things that were
01:24:15
going on in people's lives, the doubling of housing costs, the rising crime rate,
01:24:21
the inflation crisis, and my solutions to all of those problems. But a lot of that was swept off of the conversation
01:24:29
because everyone was focused suddenly on the the tariffs and the president the president saying that he was going to
01:24:36
take Canada as a state but also him saying that he was going to apply tariffs. >> That's right. And those tariffs are
01:24:42
still in place. >> Why did that impact you and help Mark Carney? >> That's a good question. I think I think
01:24:49
it allowed the conversation to move away from the domestic record of the government and on to two external
01:24:57
factors and that always helps the incumbent and hurts the challenger. >> How was this emotionally?
01:25:04
>> Oh, it was a roller coaster and it was like so things were changing so fast and
01:25:08
moving so quickly in the moment. It's like you don't really have time to feel
01:25:13
anything. you're just doing so much so quickly >> that um your emotions
01:25:20
they're put on delay until after it's all over. >> So after it's all over, I've got this
01:25:24
wonderful photo of that. >> Yes. >> You and your family. You said the
01:25:28
emotions came after cuz you were going going going. >> Yes. So my leadership started in 2022 as
01:25:35
we were coming out of co and there were so many people who placed so much hope in me who had suffered so much. They
01:25:42
would tell me they felt like they lost control of their lives and that they vested hope in me. So I'd get young
01:25:48
people would say, "You have to win because I want to start a family and I can't start a family in this economy."
01:25:56
Or mothers would say, "We just can't afford food anymore." Or police officers
01:26:01
say, "I've arrested the same guy four times this week and he keeps getting
01:26:05
released." You have to win to fix these problems. It's not about you, Mr. Polyv.
01:26:10
It's about the stuff that's happening in our lives and and you have to fix it.
01:26:15
You know, uh I had a lady come to one of my rallies cuz when you vote in a to choose a leader of a party, you have to
01:26:22
pay $15 to join the party. And she came up and told me about her life story. And
01:26:27
then she went up to the membership desk and said, "Can I borrow $8?" And they
01:26:33
said, "What do you need it for?" She said, "Well, I only have $7." They said,
01:26:36
"Oh, well, there's a bank machine downstairs. you can go get some more cash. And she says, I don't have a bank
01:26:41
card. And they said, well, is there perhaps could you go to your car and get some money? She said, well, uh, I don't
01:26:47
have any money in my car. What about your home? Um, because we're not allowed
01:26:51
to buy them under the rules for other people. And she said, I don't have a home. I live in my car, and the $7 is
01:26:57
all the money I own, and I'm spending it on a membership so that I can vote for
01:27:01
Mr. Polyia because he is my only hope. This is the only chance I have. So, I wanted to deliver for these people and
01:27:10
when we didn't win, uh, I felt I felt terrible that I hadn't delivered for
01:27:14
them. >> What does that look like? The disappointment of not delivering for
01:27:18
people the night of election, the day after, if I'm watching you as a fly on
01:27:23
the wall, what do I see? >> You know, I didn't spend a lot of time on that. I just got back at it because
01:27:28
at the end of the day, you have to focus on what you can control. And my my approach in life is to zero in on what
01:27:35
is in your control. That is the greatest thing you can do for your mental health
01:27:41
and for your output as a person. I believe in a stoic approach. So I didn't spend a lot of time sort of rolling
01:27:48
around on the ground um in melancholy. >> Do you think that if Trump hadn't have
01:27:53
said the thing about taking Canada and he hadn't have done the tariffs, you would be leading Canada right now?
01:27:59
>> We'll never know. I mean uh these are the kinds of uh things you speculate
01:28:03
about but at the end of the day what what good does it does it uh do to speculate and I also don't like to make
01:28:08
excuses. I like to say look I'm uh if if this person hadn't done X then I then I
01:28:13
would be in charge. I have to own my result and that's what I do. >> As someone that doesn't know a ton about
01:28:18
this stuff I'm asking kind of for me I find it interesting to see how consequential
01:28:23
>> these what do they call them? not um butterfly effect or just how the unexpected dominoes can fall and change
01:28:30
the course of history. >> So if Trump hadn't have said those things, if we were to speculate, do you
01:28:37
think it would have changed the outcome of the election? >> I don't know because we we don't know
01:28:40
what would have happened in absent of that. >> If you had to bet your house,
01:28:44
>> I don't have to bet my house. So outcome either way. I I don't I don't want to
01:28:48
blame someone else for the outcome of the election because at the end of the day, the people voted and they made
01:28:53
their decision. I have to be at peace with it. So, I can't spend my time thinking on whatifs because if that
01:28:59
whatif hadn't happened, then there might have been another whatif. So, I have to
01:29:03
focus on what I can control. >> Dealing with those moments. You mentioned stoicism. I found this book u
01:29:09
meditations by Marco Surelius, which I think was quite formative for how you see things in some respects and
01:29:14
generally stoicism. >> Yes. Um it's it's a great book. The amazing thing about it is it's so
01:29:19
readable. Like he he talks about um this is just a random page but it's a very
01:29:25
interesting uh excerpt. When you wake up in the morning tell yourself the people
01:29:28
I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and sirly. They are like this because
01:29:34
they can't tell good from ego evil. But if you go in and read it, what it basically says is expect these things
01:29:41
and if you do but don't be controlled by them. These are control. These are factors outside of your control. Put all
01:29:50
of your emphasis on the things that are within your control and it will bring a tremendous amount of peace because when
01:29:57
you're focused on what you can control, you're the boss of your life. And that's
01:30:01
what that's what stoicism has done for me. >> I heard you say you're not the you're
01:30:05
not acted upon. >> That's right. When you're when you focus on what you can control, you are the
01:30:11
actor rather than the acted upon. If you say if you spend a lot of your time thinking about the things you can cannot
01:30:16
control then you become a helpless victim. Whereas if you if you focus on what you can then you you become uh like
01:30:23
the driver of the car you decide where it goes. And um you know as my favorite poem says uh Invictus that um Nel Nelson
01:30:32
Mandela used to read himself when he was in prison for all those years in South Africa. He he would he would recite to
01:30:38
himself the the poem Invictus to remind him that he he could focus on what he was in control of which was his own
01:30:46
soul. I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul is how it ends. And that that gives you a lot of peace.
01:30:56
One of the things you often find in stoicism and other sort of uh teachings of that time is this idea of being
01:31:01
flexibly minded in terms of being able to learn and being growth minded and being able to evolve. Mhm.
01:31:06
>> I was wondering as you went on that campaign trail and generally over the
01:31:09
last 10 years of your career, it's it's clear to me that your your core principles have been quite consistent.
01:31:15
>> I I uh have this um this document you wrote when you were I think 20 years old, which was part of a
01:31:22
contest where you won $10,000. >> That's right. >> For explaining what you would do if you
01:31:28
were prime minister, um if you were leading Canada. >> You even dug up the check.
01:31:32
>> I found the check. It wasn't cashed. No, it's a it's a fake check. We'll go have
01:31:36
lunch. >> So, you won $10,000 for submitting this. >> Yes. >> When you were 20 years old, explaining
01:31:42
what you would do if you ever became the prime minister. >> Yes. >> And I would like you to actually just
01:31:48
read the opening three paragraphs because it it does um it is quite interesting to see how you've evolved if
01:31:53
at all. Could you just read those first three paragraphs and give me any other of the context which I might have
01:31:58
excluded? >> Sure. Although we Canadians seldom recognize it, the most important
01:32:02
gardening guardian of our living standards is freedom. Freedom to earn a living and share the fruits of our labor
01:32:09
with loved ones. The freedom to build personal prosperity through risk-taking and strong work ethic. The freedom of
01:32:15
thought and speech. The freedom to make personal choices and the collective freedom of citizens to govern their own
01:32:21
affairs democratically. Government's job is to constantly find ways to remove
01:32:26
itself from obstructing such freedoms. Human beings are graced with the gifts of creativity, wisdom, and ingenuity.
01:32:33
The the best way for a society to go about improving its living standards is to allow citizens to apply these
01:32:39
qualities to the challenges of everyday life. Asking a prime minister to single-handedly improve the living
01:32:45
standards of 30 million of the world's brightest is as about as realistic as
01:32:50
asking him to take to an Olympic sprinting track to help a lineup of worldclass athletes reach the finish
01:32:57
line. The more the government becomes involved in the race, the greater the number of hurdles competitors will
01:33:03
encounter. Therefore, as prime minister, what I would do to improve living standards is not as nearly as important
01:33:09
as what I would not do. As prime minister, I would relinquish to citizens as much of my social, political, and
01:33:15
economic control as possible, leaving people to cultivate their own personal prosperity and to govern their own
01:33:20
affairs as directly as possible. >> In the last decade, since you've been
01:33:25
out on the road, more speaking to people, campaigning, where have your views evolved?
01:33:34
I would say my temperament has matured. 10 years ago, I did not have a wife and kids. As a father, you end up having to
01:33:42
grow in a tremendous amount of patience because kids don't do what they're told
01:33:46
or they have needs that are that must supersede your own. You're constantly making compromises
01:33:53
uh with a spouse in order to juggle all of the difficulties of family life. And that necessarily spills over into your
01:34:01
political approach. I think temperamentally I've changed. I'm much more careful and thoughtful than I was
01:34:11
say in my late 20s and and early 30s. >> The people that have um you know opposition parties have often referred
01:34:18
to you as Trump light. >> And what do they base that on? >> I guess because you're both
01:34:23
conservatives, I guess that would be much of the the argument. And you both you both have spoken out against this
01:34:29
term wokeism and DEI. >> Yeah. Look, I I on the on DEI and I don't think that is something particular
01:34:37
to President Trump. I mean, there's a lot of people around the world who for
01:34:42
their own reasons and based on their own experiences have criticized that particular
01:34:48
ideology. What I think has changed is that liberals used to believe in liberty and conservatives believed in conserving
01:34:56
it. You know, they used to say liberals were the gas pedal, conservatives were the brake, but we were both heading in
01:35:02
generally the same direction. But what I think happened with wokeism is that it it it is a deeply illiberal ideology.
01:35:13
It is liberalism, traditional liberalism was was a color-blind ideology. It was based on total equality
01:35:21
regardless of gender, sexuality, race, or anything else. Wokeism is exactly the opposite of that.
01:35:29
It's it like accentuates all of those differences and disagreements. It groups
01:35:33
people based on what should be irrelevant characteristics like race and gender. And then having divided people
01:35:40
into groups, it seeks to expand state control over their lives. What I believe in is uh is treating people as
01:35:47
individuals and letting them live their own lives, judging them exclusively on their own merits. And I think that was
01:35:54
the consensus view of both liberals and conservatives up until this toxic ideology came along and divided people.
01:36:03
>> One of the things I you know I'm a black man. >> Mhm. >> I was I moved from Botswana when I was a
01:36:08
baby and came to the UK and thank God uh there was sort of social systems in place because I don't think that I would
01:36:14
have had the outcomes I'd had. One of the things that I did know though when I
01:36:17
was um 18, dropped out of university and started to get into a world of business
01:36:21
is I was aware because when you look at like funding data for entrepreneurs that
01:36:25
are black or especially women, it's clear that there's like a systemic disadvantage of some sort and I I wonder
01:36:33
someone like yourself who's against this sort of DEI ideology, how do you contend
01:36:37
with like systemic institutional discrimination towards certain groups which does pose objectively real
01:36:44
disadvantage on them being able to climb the ladder cuz you said something earlier about your goal being in Canada
01:36:50
to make sure everybody like has a fair shot. >> That's right. >> How does one counteract the systemic
01:36:55
issues around race or gender or whatever it might be that stop that being possible? Cuz I I find myself in an
01:37:02
interesting position where like on one end I'm like I want to be treated like
01:37:05
everybody else, >> right? And I've always felt that way. And I've always I've always actually to
01:37:09
some degree cringed a little bit when I felt like someone was giving me special treatment
01:37:17
because my skin color was different because it in some way made me feel like I was at a disadvantage which I know can
01:37:23
become quite self-fulfilling. However, on the other side of the spectrum, I do also believe that there is like systemic
01:37:30
discrimination that is going to hold certain groups back if there isn't something done to level that playing
01:37:37
field. So, look, I think the answer is equality. There has to be strict equality and equal treatment regardless
01:37:45
of race, gender, uh, ethnicity, religion. And that is the that is the ideal to which we were all striving. And
01:37:53
I think if we get back to that, then we can give everybody a chance to achieve based on their own merit. Uh what we
01:38:00
need is a meritocracy that is colorblind and and judges people based on what they
01:38:07
can do. >> People aren't color blind, though, are they? >> No. >> I think I my dad said to me when I was
01:38:11
younger, he said, "Everybody's prejudice." I remember sitting in the
01:38:14
back of the car, "My dad's white." And I was and I'm thinking, "My dad just said
01:38:18
that he thinks everyone might be like might be racist and everyone's prejudice." I'm like, "Is my dad
01:38:22
racist?" But um as I've got gotten older, I realized that he to some degree
01:38:26
is telling the truth. That prejudice is part of how we survived as humans and we're able to understand danger from
01:38:31
not. So prejudice is something that I think is very prevalent in society whether we believe we're not and
01:38:37
everyone else is. So if prejudice is very prevalent in society, does there need to be measures that counteract that
01:38:43
to give everybody a fair chance? Our institutions have to be conscious about making sure that we are judging people
01:38:49
based on their merit and they should you know work aggressively to make sure that
01:38:55
there is that everyone regardless of where they come from their background has a chance to succeed get the job get
01:39:02
the promotion move up the ladder I don't think that is achieved by breaking people down into more and more different
01:39:10
groups and divisions by trying to build the barriers between pe people based on race and gender. I think it's by
01:39:19
actually removing them. So the the problem I have with with wokeism is it it seems almost designed to divide
01:39:26
people. And that is exactly the opposite of the objective that we all sought when
01:39:32
we uh when we pushed for racial equality and personal and personal freedom and responsibility.
01:39:38
>> How does one contend with the systemic issues though the like the prejudices? I
01:39:42
I I remember reading about studies where like if you they got a bunch of people and got them to apply for jobs and just
01:39:47
based on the names whether they were like a a typically white name versus say a typically black name the response rate
01:39:54
is marketkedly different. >> Well, I go back to my first principles. I think that government is responsible
01:40:00
for a lot of the the barriers that are put in place. So, let me give you some examples. When government brings into
01:40:06
place these anti- housing policies that I described, they v they they impact far
01:40:12
more on minorities and disadvantaged people than they do on established uh people obviously because if if you're
01:40:19
new to a country or you come from a a poorer background, you won't have a house and then you're the one who's
01:40:25
going to pay the biggest price for the fact that government is making housing unaffordable. If you think at the
01:40:30
occupational licensing rules that I just described that block immigrants from having working in their professions even
01:40:35
when they're thoroughly qualified, those are government-imposed obstacles that
01:40:40
prevent people from getting ahead. Also, a lot of these soft on crime policies have been sold to us on the grounds that
01:40:47
they're going to help minorities by ensuring that they we we don't have as
01:40:51
high a conviction rate. Well, what they've actually done is that in many minority communities where the
01:40:56
law-abiding people are now suffering as a result of criminals of all backgrounds. And so,
01:41:04
ironically, it's actually government policies that are causing people of disadvantaged backgrounds to suffer even
01:41:10
more. So, wokeism accentuates all of those problems rather than solving them. So I'm interested in solving problems to
01:41:18
give everybody the opportunity to live a safe, affordable, opportunityfilled life. And wokeism is not doing that. The
01:41:25
actually get creating a free market, free enterprise economy with free people who have free speech. That that's the
01:41:32
the single best way to give people of all racial backgrounds a better chance in life.
01:41:37
>> Again, I'm holding the position of uh the DEI to try and I like the clash of
01:41:41
ideas because it helps me to think through these things. I've never had the chance to ask somebody these kind of
01:41:46
questions before. And on that point of housing, one of the things that I I found to be quite surprising was that
01:41:51
black mortgage applicants are up to 200% more likely to be denied a home loan than white applicants with the similar
01:41:58
financial profile. >> This is in Canada. >> These stats are for the West. So,
01:42:02
>> okay, >> but but what is going on there? because it says that they have similar financial
01:42:08
profiles, yet their their applications are being denied up to 200% more than white home buyers.
01:42:18
>> So, I had not seen those data that data point before, but I would say that this
01:42:21
is these sound like really stupid bankers um because they're making a bad decision to deny people a mortgage and
01:42:29
ultimately deny themselves the business um if they're if if that's how they're
01:42:33
making their judgments. And then DI comes in to make sure that their judgments aren't stupid.
01:42:37
>> Well, I'm not sure that DEI cures stupidity though. In some cases, we've
01:42:43
seen it cause more. >> That's how it shows up, right? It's like a logical next step, which is there's
01:42:47
prejudice going on in the system, which is making it in inequal. And it's a DEI becomes this corrective
01:42:55
measure so those stupid bankers don't make stupid decisions. >> But but DEI has been in place now for
01:43:01
several decades. and how is it working? You're reading the statistics to show
01:43:05
that it's not. So maybe it's not actually doing what it's designed to do.
01:43:09
Maybe it's doing other things. >> The other thing that I actually was really keen to talk about, I just
01:43:12
realized, is um >> Sure. >> is this >> Oh, that's little Valentina there. She
01:43:18
loves to be on daddy's shoulders. >> How old is Valentina? >> Valentina is seven years old.
01:43:23
>> Seven years old. And she's she's non-verbal. >> She's non-verbal. Yes.
01:43:26
>> What does what does non-verbal mean? >> She is autistic. She's on the spectrum.
01:43:32
So, um, she her biggest the biggest difference between Valentina and other children is the ability to communicate
01:43:41
verbally. Um, so we're working very hard on that. She's making some encouraging
01:43:46
progress, but she does uh have some challenges in that area. She's um very acrobatic and rambunctious. She loves to
01:43:55
climb, swing, bounce, jump, and she is extremely affectionate. And one of the superpowers she has is that whatever she
01:44:04
does, she does 100%. She's also 100% authentic. >> So, and that's not the case once kids
01:44:11
get old enough to manipulate to get what they want. They can put on acts and artififices. She doesn't do that. She's
01:44:16
a the real deal all the time. Uh you know exactly how she feels because she indicates it. and she's very blessed to
01:44:24
have a a little brother, Cruz, who adores her and treats her better than anyone else in the world.
01:44:32
>> I often hear parents talk about their concerns with, you know, someone like
01:44:37
Valentina growing up in the world as non-verbal. You're not going to be here
01:44:40
forever >> to protect her. And you know, I was saying to you before, my brother has
01:44:44
three kids under the age of what, seven years old now. and I've noticed uh just
01:44:48
how much he thinks about how they're going to be when he's not here. How does
01:44:53
that relate to Valentina being non-verbal and and how you think about the future?
01:44:57
>> Well, a lot of things. Like one, we obviously have to build up a nest egg
01:45:02
for her so that if she can't earn income, she will have uh uh the resources for a great life after we're
01:45:09
gone. And second, we're really hoping that there we forge a very permanent and
01:45:15
um deep bond between her and her brother Cruz because he will be there. And he one of the things he says again and
01:45:23
again is my job is to protect Valentina from bad guys. So um this is a good attitude especially that they are
01:45:31
actually in the same class even though she's older. She is in his class at school and so she's daddy he's daddy's
01:45:38
eyes uh to protect our little princess. But I think when he's older I I believe
01:45:45
based on his nature that he's going to be there for her and um we we are building a plan towards that.
01:45:51
>> My job is to protect Valentina from bad guys. >> That's right.
01:45:57
It's it's a it's a great instinct. >> How has it changed your politics?
01:46:06
It's reinforced my sense of um compassion for people who can't provide for themselves. And you know, I've
01:46:16
talked a lot about how government should be limited. I do think there's a very
01:46:20
real role for government to help people who genuinely cannot provide for themselves. People who suffer from with
01:46:26
disabilities being probably the best example. And um it has reinforced to me that we
01:46:33
have to also have policies that recognize the inherent worth of every individual.
01:46:39
Too often governments have seen people with disabilities as just someone they have to care for but not someone who can
01:46:48
contribute. And I believe that everybody has something to contribute and that we
01:46:53
should try to unlock that in every human being. Um, we don't know exactly what
01:46:58
Valentina will do, but I believe she will do some kind of a job at some point in the future and um, I'm very
01:47:05
passionate about policies that enable people with disabilities to have work opportunities, even if it's just very
01:47:12
limited, to design programs so that when they have a, for example, cash or medication support, it doesn't get
01:47:18
robbed from them just because they get a job. So, it has focused my mind a lot on
01:47:24
people. It gives you a sense of compassionate because when you see somebody who might be different like I
01:47:29
see my daughter in that person. I see my daughter my often my wife is very good at this. She'll see someone who might be
01:47:36
acting differently in a crowd and other people are looking at that person and she'll grab my hand. She'll say I think
01:47:42
he's autistic and then she will often go and talk to that that boy and make him
01:47:46
feel loved. Um so compassion is about feeling what the other person feels. And you have but a greater ability to do
01:47:54
that when there's a loved one close to you who has the experience. >> An interesting range of emotions to be
01:48:01
the father, the parent of a autistic child. >> I know this because I get messages on
01:48:08
mass from our audience members who have an autistic child. >> Yes. >> What what can you say to to the range of
01:48:14
emotions you feel? My wife was able to discern that there was something different about Valentina
01:48:22
very early on when she was still a baby because she didn't make a lot of eye
01:48:25
contact and there was a period during which she was not very communicative at all. Um even in ways that babies
01:48:32
normally are. Uh there wasn't a lot of reciprocal communication to start with.
01:48:38
So when we went for the diagnosis we were not that shocked. So, you know, when the when the I think she was a
01:48:46
nurse or she was a specialist gave us the diagnosis and she was like paused like waiting for us to burst into tears.
01:48:51
I mean, we were just kind of like, "Yeah, we we expected that and let's get
01:48:56
on with it." And then we just started doing the things that we had to do. And
01:48:59
my message to parents of autistic children is just focus on what you can control. Get on to the things that you
01:49:04
have to do. Get a speech therapist. Get the play structures in the house that they love. with Valentina. It's it's a
01:49:10
it's a b bouncy castle and a little trampoline and a lot of building blocks and enjoy them. Like they they're she
01:49:17
she's so much fun. Like she's a fun little girl. She loves to jump. She's
01:49:21
scared of nothing. If anything, the problem is she's a bit too much of a daredevil, but she's she's a thrilling
01:49:28
little girl to be around. She loves to like you see all the pictures with her on my shoulder. She always loves to
01:49:32
climb on my on my back and she loves to run. She loves me to run with her on her
01:49:37
shoulders. So like en enjoy the special things that they bring because they they
01:49:42
they are magical. They're they're they're wonderful. They're just they
01:49:47
they call it autism because they're autotapping on something might might give her a
01:50:02
tremendous sensation that we can't appreciate. On the other side, minor irritants that
01:50:08
you and I would brush off might drive her completely crazy. >> And so, if she's having a meltdown, it's
01:50:14
not because she's a bad kid. It's because she's going through a horrific
01:50:18
sensation that we can't quite understand. So, but you just have to embrace it all. And um it's a lot of
01:50:24
extra leg work that goes into a child that has these um conditions, but it's
01:50:30
worth it and it's rewarding in the end. She uh you know obviously not met her,
01:50:35
but from all the photos she she makes you smile just looking at the photos. >> She makes everyone smile and she's got
01:50:40
uh she's very popular at school. The kids are very nice to her, by the way. Like we we we get secondhand reports and
01:50:46
it's like they love her. They're sweet to her. Um she has a little boy that has
01:50:52
a crush on her, so I'm keeping an eye on that. Um but she's so affectionate. Like
01:50:57
we went to a fall fair one time and there were these little old ladies sitting there and Valentina just decided
01:51:02
she liked this little old lady and went and sat on her lap like complete stranger. But that's how she is. She
01:51:08
decides she likes you and you're in. >> What are your um what are your closing
01:51:12
statements? We've got listeners that are, you know, all over the world, the United States, Canada, Australia, the
01:51:16
UK. If you um if you had to send one final message to them, what would that message be in this moment in time that
01:51:24
we find ourselves in? Well, I'm actually optimistic about the future and I think Canada's got a very
01:51:29
bright future. Um, I think the world should look to Canada. We have the most resources of anyone in the world. We
01:51:34
have probably the most uh diverse and educated population. Uh, we have uh the the most fresh water, the um uh the
01:51:43
second biggest land mass. Uh, and I think it's going the future belongs to Canada. We're going to be an incredible
01:51:50
place. Uh, the MB of the world >> if and so if we if we do the right things. I don't want to be egotistical
01:51:55
about it, but I think it would help if I were prime minister as well. >> I love Canada. It's one of my my
01:52:00
favorite places in the world for so many reasons. Um when I told you when I went
01:52:03
to Toronto for the first time, I felt like I was at home. >> Yeah. >> Um because I think you know Brits and
01:52:07
Canadians have a lot in common. >> Absolutely. >> Including a king. >> Um
01:52:10
>> yeah, you would be very uh wellreceived in Canada. So consider um coming.
01:52:16
>> I I go all the time when whenever I'm uh whenever I'm invited to go and I've been
01:52:20
once or twice on vacation as well. So I hope to be back there soon. And uh actually going to do a tour there at
01:52:24
some point with with the Dio to meet all the people that listen. So very excited
01:52:28
about that as well. >> Oh, you'll bring you'll bring up big crowds.
01:52:30
>> Oh, >> it'll be fun. >> We have a closing tradition on this
01:52:33
podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the
01:52:37
question left for you is h what are you most afraid of and how do you deal with that fear?
01:52:50
Hm. I don't have a lot of fears. I mean, for myself, um I would say going back to
01:52:59
family, it would be that something would happen to my kids. Uh you know, just you hear uh terrible terrible things in
01:53:07
the news. I was just uh unfort you know, unfortunately I I had to go to a funeral
01:53:11
for uh mass shooting victims in Tumblr Ridge, British Columbia. And I just, you know, every parent worries about
01:53:20
something happening to their kids. I think that would be my biggest fear. >> What about for Canada at large?
01:53:26
>> The biggest fear I have for Canada is that we just keep blocking our own potential and declining
01:53:35
and opportunity vanishes and slowly our people lose the promise that the country
01:53:41
gave me and so many generations. And so my fear is that we become the the frog in boiling water and it just gets slowly
01:53:52
warmer and warmer and warmer and the frog really never notices. >> Is that the trajectory of travel?
01:53:58
>> I think it is unfortunately but I think we can change that trajectory if we make
01:54:03
uh some big reversals uh in direction. >> And lastly, what about for the world
01:54:07
generally the western world? I would say my biggest fear is that uh the western world does not stay true to
01:54:15
its foundational principles. I want the western world to stay true to the to the
01:54:21
basic principles of that that grew out of the Magna Carta, a freedom of um government that is servant uh people
01:54:29
that are masters and that the free democracies not only succeed at home but work together abroad to preserve the
01:54:38
that that uh civilization. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to to come have this
01:54:43
conversation with me and answering all of my questions. Um, it's, you know, I
01:54:46
don't like interviewing politicians because they are very slippery, >> right?
01:54:50
>> And they slip and slide away from answering things in a way that makes the
01:54:54
the very essence of why we started this show feel like we're um like we're not
01:54:59
delivering for the audience who want to know the truth, whether it's ugly or
01:55:03
indifferent or whatever it might be. And um, I've really enjoyed the conversation
01:55:06
because I feel like you answered my questions to the best of your ability. >> Thank you.
01:55:09
>> And that's often that's not usually the case with politicians. And
01:55:12
>> thank you. I think they think that's the right approach, but actually I think in
01:55:17
a world that's now more of a glass box than ever before and not a black box where you can paint the image of
01:55:21
something on the outside, being transparent and being willing to come into these environments and your team
01:55:25
didn't tell me anything was off limits. They didn't say there was anything I
01:55:28
couldn't ask you, right? >> They didn't ask to be able to edit this.
01:55:31
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01:55:37
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