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have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly no I think it'll be fun all Sprouse from Disney Channels The
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Sweet Life is acting Cody Riverdale Big Daddy friends you're my hero thank you sweet pea were you pushed into acting I
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would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old single mom two twin boys put food on the table so the choice
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never really existed you guys are big stars now yeah my mother was living vicariously through the success of her children a person that grapples with mental illness drug
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abuse but primarily narcissism a wicked narcissism but that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said
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that she was unfit the court had to step in your relationship with acting and the
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entertainment industry it's been a journey I loved being on stage I didn't like the [ __ ] that came with it this
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industry encourages the worst qualities of you selfishness greed you know authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged trades how do you feel about that you're given these lessons in
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your life so that you can triumph over them and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to
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carve out who you are I've got two pictures here then what are the words unsaid to this individual
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[Music] I'd probably kick his ass before we get into this episode just wanted to say thank you first and foremost for being part of this community
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um the team here at the diver Co is now almost 30 people and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and
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you um leave comments and you like the videos that this Show's been able to grow and it's the greatest honor of my
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life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask them questions that I'm pondering over or
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worrying about in my life but this is just the beginning for the day of this year we've got big big plans to scale
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this show and to every corner of the world and to to diversify Our Guest selection and that's enabled by you by a
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simple thing that you guys do which is to watch so if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help
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us continue to do what we do it's just to hit the Subscribe button if you like this show if you like what we do here if
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you watch these episodes please just hit that subscribe button means the world let's get on with it
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[Music] code yes okay much of what I do here is I'm especially at the start of these conversations is I'm trying to
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understand somebody you know I get to see the Finish Line I get to see their achievements the behaviors their personality during my research and I'm
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always trying you know this is ultimately why this podcast came to be on one hand in the name you hear the Diary of a CEO and it was really me
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trying to show that there's this other side of these people including myself there's this other side that we don't often talk about and on the other hand
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just from a very personal perspective I've come to learn I'm so interested in like human beings why they do what they
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do and what causes them to do what they do at the very core of it um what do I need to know about you when
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if we Zoom back to your earliest years to understand the most influential things moments influences that caused
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you to be the complex inspiring individual you are today hmm I mean I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast with you at this time in my life because for the last year and a half
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I've really been thinking about questions like this what what is it that that still compels me uh into certain
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professional Pursuits or artistic Pursuits now um I think when I was younger it was uh
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it was definitely a financial pressure there were kind of two kinds of kids uh working kids really there was the kids
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that were doing it to put food on the table for Mommy and Daddy and then like the thespian children you know like like
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Mommy I want to go into acting and they would show up and it would be this huge gap between philosophies um between like yeah man it's a job and like no this is a this is a craft this
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is you know this is an art uh and those kids kind of showed up around 14 and for me I think
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I had trained to kind of workaholism since I was a child uh in order to one feel valued by my environment uh both immediate family and audience in
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very many cases that has stuck with me a work ethic that has stuck with me now to this day like I I do not feel good when
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I am not working and I think a lot of people can say that uh and that's something I've been trying to unpack
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over the over the last year and a half is what would happen if I just simply stepped away for good and enjoyed my
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life which is really the purpose of why we're all here um would I be content with sitting down
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and fishing and growing my own vegetables and you know living sustainably or would I get so
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disenfranchised and bored that I would have to take back to the Arts in some way or another and I think I think the
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pressure of my upbringing really compelled me to continue doing what I am today I cannot live without the Arts I
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mean I I cannot live without performance or expression in some kind because it's
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truly all I know and have known since I was eight months old since you were eight months old yeah you
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hold the record for being the guest on this show that started working the earliest tell me tell me
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Well to be fair I don't know if we can call it work I don't I don't believe I cued into Consciousness until about like
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10 years ago um when you're a baby you have that kind of lantern Consciousness where only you
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know whatever exists is only in your immediate purview and then as you age you know when you start to become less
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present you're like wow I'm an adult and I feel like [ __ ] all the time um so I don't know about if I I perceived it as work but it certainly infused within me a kind of work ethic as I have
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aged um but yeah it established a relationship with work it did I mean it started for me financially uh single mom two twin boys put food on the
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table she is still able to be a mother while we can still pursue a sort of uh Improvement of our lifestyle and and very many ways she was living vicariously through the success of her
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children but I think uh it's certainly developed a relationship to uh professionalism much earlier than almost anyone else I know will you will you use the word pushed
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earlier were you pushed into acting in your view well I didn't you know I would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old I don't even think I would I knew you know I was on screen I
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don't remember much of like the early early the diaper commercials and things like that so the choice never really
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existed I was there that's it how do you feel about that I think gratefulness and ungratefulness can exist simultaneously and I I am
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tremendously grateful of the financial stability I have acquired now as a 30 year old and being able to say yeah I'm okay now
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um I think in many ways I traded sort of the lantern consciousness of Youth and sort of the Carefree presentedness of Youth for financial stability that I would come to appreciate as an older man
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but um I don't regret too much I don't I I think if I were to sit here and talk about regretting my my
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childhood within the industry I think that would be silly it toughened the hell out of both my brother and I and
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many kids that go through that same thing um but I'm grateful I'm grateful for the
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financial stability of it yeah and I also am grateful to have done it in a time where you could get your Gladwell
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10 000 hours in anonymously you know if you did a crappy direct DVD movie Just for kicks I'm looking at you for anyone who knows this uh if you did your crappy soccer movie it would go to the back of Blockbuster
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and no one would see it now with social media I mean there's no way that you can
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that you can cut your teeth in silence anymore everyone sees your portfolio globally and you're expected to put it
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on display I find it you know I I feel quite afraid for young actors now who have to hone their craft over time but do it to a global audience that sucks
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you've got a you've got a twin brother yes um 15 minutes older than you yes as he always likes to yes help people in my
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face your parents you mentioned single mother I am as I read through your story I saw
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a ton of similarities between the way you described your relationship with your with your mother and the way that I
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often describe the relationship still to this day with my mother can you tell me about both your your mother and your
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father and the journey you kind of went on I know at five years old roughly they divorced sure I I don't remember the
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exact timeline of divorce um but I remember only having one memory of them being together uh when I was very very young and then from that point on my father was in Switzerland and my
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mother was in LA he would eventually move out to LA in order to try and repair the family
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uh but my mother was um still is uh the kind of tortured artist type she struggled with uh in very many ways her place in the world
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she she I think she found a tremendous amount of self-identity through motherhood and
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tried to turn it into a profitable business at the same time which for identical twin boys going into acting is sort of economic loophole through labor laws that can be incredibly profitable
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um so that's what she did and as I've thought about it it seemed like to me it made a lot of financial sense to her to put us into acting it made I think it's satisfied some sort of narcissism that
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she probably had in order to be recognized as this sort of artistic success uh she was a wonderful painter so she
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always wanted sort of artistic legitimacy and validation But as time went on uh I think the entertainment industry just
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kind of broke her you know this this this industry in very many ways it encourages the worst qualities of you
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as a person um narcissism selfishness greed a lot of these things that we have come to know is practically cardinal
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sins um it's one of those things that uh encouraged a kind of selfishness that was uh directly opposed to the very fundamental idea of motherhood
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and As I Grew Older in my case the court had to step in and Rend my brother and I
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towards our father who's an incredible guy um but that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and uh said that she was unfit
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and I think as I've aged and I've looked back on a lot of the circumstances of that entire environment I see a person that grapples with
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mental illness drug abuse but primarily narcissism a wicked narcissism the inability to to perceive anything outside your own
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perspective would probably be the biggest sickness I see and uh that just doesn't work with me and the mother that just doesn't work with being in a family in general
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you know when when it rains it rains on everyone's roofs that's how it goes it takes a village man and selfishness
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that is encouraged very much like I said from the industry just doesn't really work
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it doesn't really work for being a mother it's easy to look at this that situation
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objectively and go okay just don't speak to them but this is your mother yeah that's something I've dealt with a lot
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too that's my question which is like how do you how have you tried to separate the two there's so many people listening to
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this right now who have a member of their family that is a toxic influence in whatever way and they struggle with this idea that it's a big one yeah right like because they're blood I have to
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persist with the relationship I have to tolerate it whereas if this was someone who was I just met on the street or in
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school I would [ __ ] I would I would chop up later straight away right have you dealt with with the duality of
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both it being blood but also being unacceptable Behavior yeah it's a great question
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um I don't think you ever fully reconcile it I think it's the difference between
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this like kind of immortal abstract connection to someone this thing that we call love this this energy not to sound to California you know but this this
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this sort of a mortal connection between a mother and a child or a father and a son or or whatever it is um and how do you distinguish that
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uh from anyone else who you would immediately cut off and I think for me I I've recently you
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know I've recently arrived at the philosophy that almost everything is is some sort
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of lesson that we must take and I think lessons like this when it comes to parents when it comes to people who are supposed to be these sort of um
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Immortal almost god-like figures in in your life especially during your youth like that is the greatest lesson for your Humanity that you can acquire you know
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the distinction between love and care and abandonment and pain as you grow uh I really I wouldn't call myself a religious man but I I do believe that everyone is put
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here in your life to have these interactions with you for some kind of reason and I know that sounds like fadedness which can be you know we'll
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leave that for another podcast but um I think it's uh I think it's a lesson that you have to learn and it's all in a way reflecting
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back and carving you into the person that you're supposed to be I also think it tests your patience and your love
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and the people that really persist and continuously try and find the love after all the pain consistently we arrive to
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the the care and the connection and the love even though you've been you know deeply wounded by the ones who are supposed to be at your Round Table those are the strongest individuals in my
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opinion you know if you can if you can consistently on the other come to the other side of that conversation and go
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I will still choose to care I will still choose to love um that speaks a lot about you at some point you have to put your love for yourself of course fast it's the old
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oxygen mask analogy your journey with with your mother you're very young you don't really know what's going on sure
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you're acting you're doing these things at some point in your adolescence or Beyond you figure out that this is not
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normal behavior this is not acceptable behavior for a mother and a son sure when was that I mean I guess when Social Services came
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knocking it's usually when it happens um I don't know I would go over to my father's house because the court gave
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primary custody to my mother and this is one I don't know too much about the UK legal system in this regard but the United States legal system is incredibly biased towards uh towards the mother in
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cases of divorce and custody and in this case it certainly should have been my father taking custody
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um and this is obviously a case-by-case basis but um I would go into you know we'd we'd
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spend some time with my father like once a week and we wouldn't be able to eat candy and do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted he would you know make us go and exercise and play outside and
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there was a regiment there was a healthy regimen it wasn't you know we weren't a lot we we weren't
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allowed to do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted and I think at that point I was going at when you're a child you go man
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this is no fun but as you as you sort of pan out for a moment and you go wow I'm
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actually feeling a lot better here I'm present here I'm I'm happy here even though I don't get to eat ice cream all
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the time you know so am I making sense with this please um Social Services don't get called for eating ice cream no
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no they don't and I won't go too much into that because I don't want to make this whole podcast about another young man in LA with mommy issues yeah uh but
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I do think that that the circumstances of my life are are at least my childhood are much like the sort of cliche narrative that you hear a lot about child stars but
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um I don't talk about it too much because I don't ever want to be perceived as a victim of it I am not and
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have never been and never will be a victim of any circumstance that I am in I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder I
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don't like to act like I am my wounds and to repeatedly be reminded of my wounds um what happened in my youth happened and
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carved me and forged me into the person I am today for better and for us right for better for purely better even
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through pain we trade trauma for wisdom that's what we do as humans when we go through heavy experiences it deepens our eyes you know
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I I I think for me the reason I haven't really talked about it too much in the past is because one
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the media has a way of sensationalizing scars and victimhood like this is a person's character and in very many ways
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it is but they don't talk about the strength that is the byproduct of pain they talk about the pain which is useless like it it all it does is
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perpetuate the past which I think is is or a pain that existed in the past rather than going my god look how well he's done for himself even though he's had such a tough tough upbringing you
00:19:06
know I think Oprah is another wonderful example of this where her story her origin tale so to speak is is very well known um and look at what a beautiful example
00:19:19
of success that she's become over time you know that to me is the most beautiful way that I think media can
00:19:25
sensationalize a story of pain but I find that it's oftentimes not and I also feel like we're in a climate right now that really encourages people to talk about
00:19:39
the victimization of pain more than they do about the triumph over it the strength that comes as a byproduct of that pain and so that's mainly why I don't talk about it too much because I
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don't want to be that guy you know I don't want to be that guy that's like are we all the time no man you you're
00:19:57
given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use use the traits
00:20:05
that you've acquired from those lessons over time to to carve out who you are one of the things I've mulled over from
00:20:12
speaking to people on this podcast is about this idea that that that trauma you describe if it ever goes away you
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know should it ask yourself that it's a good question it probably I have to say it probably
00:20:25
shouldn't because as you I said earlier on it's a lesson that you learned so that you could deal with your
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environmental circumstance and just like the lesson I learned of not putting my hand into fire I'm not going to unlearn
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that at 30. no there's no therapy that could that could help me worse and unfortunately I'm speaking for myself
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here I don't know about you but I'm a dumbass that needs to learn by his own mistakes I mean I can watch my father go
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hey man yeah you need to drink water at this Watering Hole but I you know you can't drag me there and make me drink I have to make mistakes in order to learn from my mistakes and a lot of my friends
00:21:00
are very similar but um I don't think I don't think those lessons should ever go away like I said
00:21:07
about my my validation thing sticking sticking around with me sure what stuck around with you
00:21:14
um the workaholism is definitely stuck with me uh I need validation a lot I think that's a pretty common uh uh thing for most artists just to
00:21:25
have um but I am the byproduct of the byproduct of um moments of incredible narcissism and moments of severe self-loathing and
00:21:39
right in the middle is when I do my best work um but a lot of that operation and the fluctuation between those two things uh is determined by
00:21:53
people going goddamn you're good what if they say what if they invalidate what if they say God damn you suck I spiral of
00:22:01
course but I don't let it hang on me I try not to let it hang on me what does a spiral look like
00:22:08
um man maybe I should just run away and and not do this and you know get some chickens and raise you know get some
00:22:14
eggs and live off the grid and and whatever it is um it also manifestes the inability to sort of say your desires out loud for fear of of
00:22:27
looking like a fool um I think La does that too because I think vulnerability is just something that we don't really encourage here in Los Angeles why is that
00:22:38
um because it's not cool but it's not cool uh uh to angelino's because someone that is cool hasn't said it like that before do
00:22:49
you know what I'm saying it's a lot of imposter syndrome in Los Angeles and so you know authenticity and vulnerability
00:22:55
are not really encouraged trades um before you arrived I was saying to my team I was like I watch all these interviews with people like yourself from La that's
00:23:06
a Stars actors and I go no one's ever asked them an interesting question it seems but genuinely that's how before
00:23:12
you walked in this is what I was saying because Lucy Hale was the same she goes oh this is the first time I've had a
00:23:17
deep conversation and I'm like why and then I mimicked what interviewers are like he was like hey uh where did you get your shoes yeah
00:23:25
yeah yeah of course who the [ __ ] wants to talk about that does people actually you
00:23:31
know yeah yeah yeah I mean because it's safe yeah right because it's a safe thing you know this is why I love the
00:23:36
podcast space is because the podcast space creates new ones yeah nuance and and context a viewed it gives you the whole context right there which is something that a lot of people you know
00:23:48
in interview settings or otherwise are completely devoid of when you're selling a publication when you're selling an
00:23:54
interview with someone on paper you don't really get the context oh well the context was it was pouring rain outside
00:24:00
for the last blah blah blah and you arrive to the studio and you got to sit down and have a tad and we talked about having similar birthdays and we talked
00:24:07
about Botswana beforehand blah blah blah blah blah you know you get the context you get the connection which I think is gorgeous
00:24:14
and I think it also creates a really beautiful way to discover the honest humanity and opinion of people
00:24:19
because we're you know entertainment media it's Sensational we're only going to sell the
00:24:25
worst person in the world and the best person in the world we're not going to sell the humans in between
00:24:31
you know and and most of us fit as soon as a kind of gray morality that doesn't really you know we're not not all of us
00:24:38
are these [ __ ] outliers that are like these really firm radical [ __ ] people that are that are saying these radicalized things in order to preach to the to the sensationalism of the
00:24:49
internet most of us have these kind of moderate places that we sit um so I think the podcast space is
00:24:55
[ __ ] awesome for that man you really get to to sit and connect to people and have a conversation and for people that
00:25:01
are interested they [ __ ] listen it's great a quick word from one of our sponsors I've got a tip for all of you
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production virtual events your journey with your relationship with acting sure and the entertainment
00:26:04
industry yeah it's been a journey oh for sure man can you give me kind of like a timeline
00:26:09
of that journey and how you've felt through the process with your relationship with acting absolutely
00:26:16
um started at eight months old when you say that it still baffles my mind diaper commercials things like that
00:26:22
dick commercials um worked on a sitcom for a bit uh still wasn't really fully conscious uh we were still doing the baby acting thing I did a sitcom called Grace Under
00:26:34
Fire a couple other little TV spots here and there identical twins switching places blah blah blah then we booked big
00:26:40
daddy with Adam Sandler when we were around six um and that was like the big thing at
00:26:46
the time this point about the use of twins in acting yeah some people might not understand the context oh okay you'd
00:26:51
like me to explain yeah children can only work a certain amount of hours which is a very strange thing to say out
00:26:57
loud um in the button factory in the coal mines we can only work for two hours a
00:27:02
day uh no but we can only work for a certain amount of hours um and so if you have two twins that
00:27:10
look identical to each other that people can't perceive as anything other than the same character you double the amount
00:27:15
of hours you can work which is an incredible economic loophole for a lot of young actors because to
00:27:23
clean the jackpot yeah yeah of course of course it was great work the system baby but the problem is
00:27:31
when you start at least from that philosophy and you go into an art you know um we've commodified almost all of the Arts that exist but when you enter into
00:27:44
a form of expression in a professionalized or or work Dynamic it's hard to see that as a pursuit of passion so my journey through acting over time
00:27:56
has been one of trying to balance art and Commerce in a way one for the money too for the show sort of thing where
00:28:04
I need to be reminded consistently to myself that I love this thing do you know what I'm saying making my money becoming financially stable getting financially stable taking
00:28:17
jobs that are uh that aren't paying as much but doing cool projects and making yourself feel
00:28:23
more in love with the discipline and I think you know this is this is a particular approach that has to come from a certain socioeconomic background if you are
00:28:36
you know this nepo baby conversation has been huge out here in La I don't know how how big it's been out in the UK but
00:28:43
um if you come from a financially stable background and you can see it with any actor that has a really Stellar resume
00:28:49
where you're like God you've picked great movie after great movie after great movie you've been a part of all these really cool projects well they
00:28:56
probably had a lot of financial stability because those projects pay you [ __ ] nothing
00:29:01
right so if you have the sort of Patron that is allowing your freedom of expression to take these artistic
00:29:08
projects and reinvigorate this passion for you even in the face of commodification of an expression then you can uh you can have a really Stellar
00:29:18
career but if you also have to make money alongside it you're probably not going to take the super cool jobs you
00:29:24
gotta you know you gotta sell drinkable yogurt uh for a little bit in order to go to college you know what I mean yeah
00:29:31
yeah this is the balance between art and commerce that a lot of people don't understand in almost every other art at
00:29:36
least in photography this is a great example no one looks at someone doing a commercial gig and then
00:29:42
going back to the editorial world and going why would they do that commercial again yeah it's a little strange but in
00:29:48
acting they do there's a huge division between those two people massive Big Daddy yeah that's where we left off wasn't it yes big daddy so got Big Daddy it's six
00:29:59
um Adam was just incredible we shot that movie for far longer than it needed to be shot in New York City
00:30:06
um it's my first time going to New York uh and then that was a whirlwind were you cognizant at this point of your feelings with acting that your relationship with the industry no it was
00:30:18
super present okay which is good which is what I think we're all trying to get back to is this sort of lantern
00:30:24
consciousness of of Youth in terms of acting this is a state of play because no one should go into acting and be like
00:30:30
I'm going to act no that's I don't think that's yeah I don't think that's right um but I was still very present at the time and then big daddy came out and
00:30:42
alongside it came this Whirlwind of opinion and conversation and fame and and all this sort of stuff which would then which was very polarizing but would lead me into I
00:30:55
worked on um a couple other direct DVD movies at the time for some cash money and then uh did friends I was a recurring role on
00:31:07
friends and then uh Dylan and I would end up booking uh The Suite Life on Disney which of course was another huge lifesaver um and your relationship with acting at
00:31:20
this point is what you're very commercial okay are you enjoying it um not really because now it had become
00:31:27
a thing that was taking me away from playing in the cul-de-sac with the friends you know what I mean so
00:31:33
I loved school like I loved going to school I loved playing with my friends and and all that sort of thing so at the
00:31:39
time I couldn't see it as anything other than that but that's you know that's what a child does um
00:31:44
and then we did The Sweet Life and then I actually really did not mind not going to school so we were homeschooled from
00:31:51
The Suite Life lawnmowers and then every every conversation because I kept a lot of my super close friends you're 12 and
00:31:57
15 at this point uh this would yeah so we did that from 12 to 18. 12 to 18. oh in the Sweet Sweet Life yes would be The Suite Life on Deck to spin off um and when we got to high school age
00:32:10
all of my friends would tell me these stories from high school American public high school that was just like God damn
00:32:15
you lived through that [ __ ] I don't want to be part of that at all this sounds horrible and so then I was quite
00:32:21
thankful to not be doing that um and then I went to college you picked up photography around this
00:32:26
time I did around 18. I actually went to London and the first time I went to London I said I should give myself a
00:32:33
camera and document my brother a nice little journey through London I found a really curious quote that you said about
00:32:38
the reason why you chose photography sure um relating to it allowed you to escape
00:32:44
your depression yeah yeah I think a lot of people um have sort of discussed that one quote um I I think I was certainly
00:32:57
I had gone through a huge breakup after college right at the end of college um and re and picked my camera up again um and you put a lot of my emotional
00:33:13
state into just shooting hobbyism which is a real wonderful uh thing to do when you were feeling sad is pick up a hobby dive into hobbyism um
00:33:26
and so I pushed myself into a lot of that uh and in very many ways it allowed time
00:33:33
to pass more quickly and for me to heal more effectively yeah but I also did it because I wanted to
00:33:39
express my vision in very many ways when you're an actor you are the byproduct of the writing the
00:33:46
direction and the editing and a lot of people assume you have much more creative agency over a project than you
00:33:51
do but I don't find that to be the case when you're a commercial employee actor you know when when you were working on
00:33:57
Commercial projects in very many ways there's they're controlling the image of you that people are seeing um and they control the takes and you're
00:34:04
as bound to the project uh as the writing is good or bad and the directors are changing week to week so it's a
00:34:11
difficult relationship to expression and self-identity and I I think at the time I was really looking for a way to tell people hey this is what I can do if I'm given
00:34:21
creative freedom um I don't think I've achieved that no your work is amazing as I was saying she wasn't just blowing smoke up your ass I I went on your website I thought oh we're moving into a new house me my
00:34:33
girlfriend I thought this would be brilliant if we come out I'll just send you something yeah I hate I hate anything I I do after
00:34:41
two weeks so I'll send you some of the newer stuff textbook creative yeah when's the moment in your life where you
00:34:48
both loved and then the moment where you hated acting the most I came back to it
00:34:53
yeah you know I used College yeah I was at real fork in the road and I um made a promise to someone that I would return to acting but I never anticipated I would and I was reminded that I love
00:35:05
performance which is I love to perform in front of people um and I love the presentedness of a performance like when you wake up at the end of the take and you go man I don't I barely remember what I was even doing
00:35:16
right there that was I just felt that um I love that I love performing for the crew I love
00:35:23
I loved being on stage I didn't like the [ __ ] that came with it because when I was young you know acting was like the grilled chicken of the dish it was like it was
00:35:35
the biggest part of the course and the side salad was like the red carpet stuff and and whatever the [ __ ] it is and now
00:35:42
that social media has made it so that the whole thing's just a grilled chicken salad now I mean like like the salad is
00:35:49
almost a bigger part of your success than the act the act of performance and I think in very many ways you know your celebrity profile has been become far too intermingled into your
00:36:02
work as a professional and all of us within the industry are recoiling and trying to figure out a way to to
00:36:08
you know figure out how to deal with that I I was I have to be honest I had a good
00:36:14
laugh at your other Instagram account camera duels yeah that's polarized a lot of people but but I at the same time I thought I underst I read about your sort of social anxiety that came with came along with the fame
00:36:26
and then I heard you'd created this Instagram account of taking people taking pictures of people taking pictures of you covertly without asking
00:36:33
permission and then I thought to myself this is a great idea but it's going to encourage it yeah of course it did yeah I know it totally did which I I don't mind as much
00:36:45
that it encourages people um because all it's done is just further reinforce why I've done it yeah which is
00:36:52
like hey people are not going to care about anything other than the uh then bragging about a place they've been or a person they've seen you know how do you feel about that
00:37:04
uh I don't mind it because all of us kind of just do it we're taught to do that sort of thing
00:37:11
um but I don't know if I'd necessarily make those people my friends how does how does it feel to be on the receiving
00:37:17
end of it every day I understand it did you always um yeah actually I did did you ever struggle with it um of course I
00:37:28
struggled with it for sure I'm asking this for myself yeah yeah because well I think look man we're always searching
00:37:34
for um a much deeper emotional connection to another human being you know it would I would much rather have someone be like like this podcast
00:37:46
is a great example tell me about what it was like growing up in your position and if anyone ever asked me that I would be
00:37:51
an open book yeah you truly could come up to me and ask me any question on the street and I would probably hold a tattoo with you um but people want to show others yeah
00:38:04
but I don't um don't do that uh but I think people want to want to show what they're up to right now and that's totally fine and natural
00:38:15
um well I don't know if it's natural but uh we're you know we're conditioned to do that but I think you know
00:38:22
whether it's you know you're doing it ironically or authentically or you're truly excited or you admire someone or you want to just prove to other people
00:38:34
I think most people have to understand that there is probably a greater connection to be made
00:38:40
that exists there's a choice that you make when when you're asking for a very surface level shallow interaction with
00:38:46
someone um and that the alternative did exist where you could probably deepen your
00:38:51
relationship to to um an individual that you've wanted to talk to uh so I don't really mind when people do it it just means that person's not going to
00:39:03
be a cool connection to me personally like I'm not gonna remember that connection in my life when I'm telling
00:39:09
stories and things whereas you know I did a movie called five feet apart which um which dealt a
00:39:15
lot with cystic fibrosis and I've had a lot of um people who live with cystic fibrosis
00:39:21
come up to me and talk to me about cystic fibrosis and and talk to me about that film and those are Connections in
00:39:27
my opinion that have lasted with me I remember almost every single conversation I've had with something
00:39:33
like that because it's not a uh yeah let's take a pic it is hey man um I want to let you know that I go through this something that you were trying to portray in this and and you
00:39:45
know this it affected me like this and and it it's it's a discussion that enriches both people
00:39:52
um and even if you don't like the individual you know let's say you see someone that you really don't like the
00:39:58
work of or you don't like the Persona of going up and asking them a question is probably going to yield so much more to you than the alternative but we want to show everything on Instagram and social
00:40:11
media and Tick Tock and whatever it is because we want you know we're all creatures of
00:40:16
validation we want to see the likes and and the whatever the [ __ ] it is and I'm I've done it too I'm not saying I
00:40:22
haven't done it you know I've I've taken a picture or tried to take a picture of John C Reilly who I really admire you
00:40:28
know I there's a lot of people that I I deeply admire but if I were given the choice between asking them a compelling
00:40:34
question and taking a photo I would probably choose the compelling question for sure that social anxiety if you will
00:40:39
really know what that's like people without Fame will often experience social anxiety for their own reasons as
00:40:44
well but when you say social anxiety can you give me a picture of what that feels like in reality oh sure uh pain and
00:40:52
image of it you're very good at painting images with your words by the way oh thank you that's very you're enjoyable to listen
00:40:58
to you know what my social anxiety feels a lot like sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit
00:41:05
too hot like the sauna right before you have to get out you know what I mean it's it's like this warm sort of
00:41:10
blanketing feeling but it's not warm it's [ __ ] hot it's but it's a blanket over me for sure and it it it's this
00:41:18
kind of for me anxiety is really present even though I'm thinking about future possibility or past um past actions that I've made it is a
00:41:30
consistent um I'm living in this I'm living in this I'm living in this I'm living in this
00:41:36
I'm living in this and so in that way it's almost blanketed over me um and what I'll do for that anxiety is is I will activate my five senses
00:41:47
what do I see what do I smell what can I hear Can I taste anything what do I feel on my skin and it immediately grounds me in the present these things are grounding mechanisms
00:41:59
that I really enjoy when I start to feel social anxiety have you learned that somewhere
00:42:04
yeah I think I did where'd you where did you learn that um well I did uh I went to therapy I've had I've gone to
00:42:12
therapy off and on my whole life um but he was a wonderful man up in Vancouver that taught me a sort of
00:42:18
grounding techniques and he's right but I mean it does you know it can be a therapist it can be a
00:42:24
father figure it can be anyone that teaches you essentially the root of it is be present grounded yeah it's it's
00:42:31
it's you know all the Eastern philosophers and the Buddhists were trying to tell you to do this [ __ ] the
00:42:36
whole time meditate ground yourself in the present you know grounding yourself in the present is the greatest enemy of
00:42:44
anxiety what other tools have you learned from therapy I feel like in a I can learn a lot from you without
00:42:50
having to pay the therapist sure well that's flattering um yeah I try not to talk too much about mental health just in general um
00:43:02
because everyone has an incredibly personal relationship to it and I feel like there's a lot of armchair experts
00:43:08
on the internet right now acting like you know or diagnosing people or doing stuff like that which I find Inc that is
00:43:16
so atrocious I can't believe people even do that um and I think the conversation about around mental health unless it's being
00:43:23
done by truly a trained professional is probably not the greatest thing to listen to so with that disclaimer
00:43:30
I will say um whenever I'm feeling heightened emotionally I will take a break from
00:43:36
whatever I'm doing I will truly walk away from whatever I am doing I will tell if it is an argument with someone I will go
00:43:42
hey right now I'm feeling some heightened emotion if you don't mind let's pick up
00:43:48
this conversation about 20 minutes give yourself time you know I I try to approach everything
00:43:55
with a kind of logos that that you know allows me to think more clearly and calmly about what I do um which can be off-putting to some people
00:44:07
uh because not a lot of people like being met uh with logos when they're heightened emotionally or being met with Solutions when they're just trying to vent it's
00:44:20
one of the first things you learn when you're in a serious relationship especially as a guy
00:44:25
for sure because most a lot of a lot of us are solution-based people you know um
00:44:30
but I'll take a break that's the that's honestly the most helpful thing I've done I'll also try and remind myself of
00:44:37
you know grounding myself in the senses or I will uh I'll remind myself that one you're not the only person that's ever gone through anxiety or will ever go through anxiety and two
00:44:50
um the problem as you perceive it the the vastness of the problem is you perceive it is not the way other people
00:44:55
perceive it what about your relationship with boundaries what please explain what so you know you're the very first story
00:45:02
you told about being eight months old eight months old you don't have boundaries of course yeah so they are obviously easily exploited as you grow
00:45:09
older sometimes when those boundaries weren't firm when they were young and you were maybe people pleasing or you
00:45:15
were seeking validation that can have a sort of cascading effect into adulthood what's your relationship been like with
00:45:21
saying no and protecting boundaries whether it's professionally personally in relationships well that's a great
00:45:27
question and one I'm far more qualified to answer now than I was even two years three years ago um I can honest to God say that I did not love myself enough as a younger man
00:45:39
especially my mid to late 20s for sure did not love myself enough did not respect my own boundaries what did that
00:45:45
look like um that looked like rolling over in the face of a lot of adversity especially
00:45:50
when it came to romantic relationships um I was a people pleaser I I was a people pleaser professionally I was a people pleaser uh romantically I was practically a [ __ ] nurse to whoever
00:46:05
needed my help in very many ways likely as a byproduct of my upbringing but um what that meant was oftentimes crossing my own boundaries as an attempt to make others feel better
00:46:16
and as I've gotten older I've become more okay with uh turning people off which is all right you know you're going to polarize individuals you are going to get along
00:46:32
with certain people and not get along with other people that's totally okay and I think as I've aged I've tried to um
00:46:43
I've tried to remind myself yeah that was an awkward interaction that was a bad interaction with someone but you're gonna have those man that's okay
00:46:51
move on and as I've Loved myself now and thankfully I'm I you know I'm in a relationship right now with a woman who's so emotionally understanding and and just the best and you know it helps
00:47:03
when others can be like yeah dude encourage you in the right direction and be like yeah it's okay like we're like
00:47:10
because I will I know myself I will fall back on like are you all right like is everything okay like like trying to control a situation through making sure everyone is happy you know but it's not
00:47:22
a you know it's not a [ __ ] video game you can't get like the best solution where everyone is okay sometimes you're
00:47:28
gonna really have to polarize some people and that's all right my only boundaries I would say uh when it comes
00:47:35
to when it comes to my professional career or otherwise um I really don't like condescension so like if I feel condescension in any
00:47:48
sort of way if I see other people being condescending to others if if if I can sense a kind of pretentiousness or condescension that's usually something that will either take me to leave the room or confront another person about it
00:48:00
and be like hey why'd you why'd you do that what is um that relationship you described what is love taught you about
00:48:05
yourself ah so much man I've had the pleasure of being in love three times the pleasure um I've had
00:48:17
I'd say three big relationships in my life three girlfriends in my life um I mean my first one when I was like a kid but that was just kind of puppy love stuff and then I had one in college
00:48:31
um I dated a co-star on Riverdale um and now I'm I'm in love again and every time it has been pretty distinct I think maybe the first two college and my
00:48:48
last girlfriend were far more similar because of me uh because I was still approaching it
00:48:53
the same way um and then I did a lot of self work and I fell in love again um thankfully and it has taught me a lot like I mentioned I was a people pleaser
00:49:05
I was deathly afraid of being perceived as anything other than perfect for a long time and so I would roll over quite a bit in
00:49:17
order to make sure that as long as they were happy that's what love is you know as a sort of consistent
00:49:24
happiness um and I was also actively suppressing my emotions and like not really
00:49:30
discussing what I actually felt about a situation because I was afraid of retaliation in very many ways
00:49:36
um I was afraid where did that come from oh I mean certainly my youth certainly my youth your youth I think growing up
00:49:44
in you know building an entire life and business model off of the validation of other people certainly made me um open to it but I also think the first relationship I ever had with with a
00:49:57
female figure which is the mother figure in everyone's life was an incredibly tenuous and fractured relationship with
00:50:05
with um with a a tortured individual which made me go I can fix things don't worry I got it you know no you're all good it's okay
00:50:18
um and I brought that in I brought that in a lot were you trying to make her happy oh of course yeah I think so when I was
00:50:26
younger especially but even though I wasn't an adult you know I didn't even know yeah yeah of course you don't speak
00:50:33
your pretty mother anymore I don't I don't but um she put me on this path and there was once a woman who was very clear-headed
00:50:44
and who had a beautiful vision of the kind of people my brother and I could be and in very many ways I honor the dream she once had so that if she
00:50:58
were Lucid enough um and came back and saw what I had become she would go man I was right and in that way it would validate the entire life of
00:51:11
pain and Trauma that she has gone through are you are you sad about where your relationship is with her of course everyone is everyone is sad about
00:51:20
something that could I mean unless you're a sociopath um when something beautiful and and lovely goes rotten it can be a very sad thing
00:51:32
um and it does make me sad but it's also life and that's the lesson that I've had to learn from it is that you know that sadness is okay it means I'm human it means I loved something
00:51:44
outside of myself in a way that was so beautiful and so boundless that it that it makes me feel one of the strongest and most Eternal of human emotions which is sadness like
00:51:57
real sadness and that's okay do you do you does part of you like hold out and this is kind of speaking from my
00:52:02
experience as well sure does part of you kind of hold out for things to just get better or go
00:52:10
completely wrong get better outcome go completely wrong um I mean I'm sure you've reconciled this
00:52:21
as well but there's a part of you that goes oh what if this is my last communication with an individual you
00:52:26
know of course you have how would that make me feel as a consequence thereof how would it make you feel
00:52:32
if this was you've never got a speech your mother again you know and going back to the previous question
00:52:37
I tried for very very many years to try and to try and do everything I could um but at some point or another it comes down to the individual which is the
00:52:49
hardest part like you want someone to change or do something and this also goes to romance
00:52:55
this goes to friendships this goes to to blood to whatever it is you can really yearn for someone to do the right thing
00:53:02
and the hardest part is even if you set up the entire environment for them to do so
00:53:07
uh unless they choose it for themselves it's just not gonna happen and so I used
00:53:14
to blame myself quite a bit for not just my relationship to blood but you know I
00:53:19
used to blame myself for all of the relationships in my life going wrong until I realized that yeah in almost
00:53:25
every relationship it takes two to tango friendships romance blood some the other
00:53:30
person has to be a participant in the dance just as much as you are participating in the dance in order for
00:53:36
the outcome to be the one that you guys both desire when you say that you used to blame yourself for relationships in
00:53:41
your life going wrong yeah does that mean that you originally blamed yourself for the relationship with either your mother or father or the relationship
00:53:47
between you and your mother going wrong um I did because unfortunately as a consequence of being a working child
00:53:53
you're forced into an authority position when you're quite small right which is now you're the breadwinner of a family
00:54:01
over the adults so in very many ways you take this very strange like uh role of authority and and positioning when it comes to uh the subsistence of of a
00:54:14
nuclear family which is not a role a child should be put in so when it does go wrong as a natural byproduct of the authority that you feel as a consequence of you know your professional life you
00:54:27
can adopt some of the blame on yourself which I will say I do not do anymore was that are you talking about the divorce
00:54:33
there are you talking about relationship with your mother yeah just everything work mother whatever it is super
00:54:38
interesting yeah yeah I mean dude it's this is also like it should be said that the working child a a child that has
00:54:50
worked since they were eight months old you have to understand that that is a not to sound like a [ __ ] special snowflake as an identical twin you know
00:54:57
what I mean which is the greatest contradiction but that is a life an upbringing that is very very very very rare very rare not there's only a
00:55:13
handful of people that have that really weird um path through the world most of them
00:55:20
are in the United States and most of them you know the sensationalism of their of their upbringing is talked
00:55:27
about all over um so that's um that comes with a lot of [ __ ] and it affects to tie us all back I'm getting us back good thank God for that
00:55:37
because I couldn't see how we'd make it yeah um that affects how you navigate everything in your life your
00:55:43
relationships which is what we were talking about friendships blood all that stuff and my relationships were deeply
00:55:50
affected by my upbringing of course my friendships were affected by my upbringing my relationship to my family was affected by my upbringing but at
00:55:57
some point or another you have to go yeah I'm on the right path and even if it's not I'll try and make it the right
00:56:03
path and I'll grow from them what makes you alive then like what brings what brings your heart to life these days
00:56:09
passionate conversation really for sure without a doubt how many of them have you had lots publicly
00:56:14
not publicly No in fact I've only done one other podcast um and these kind of public
00:56:21
conversations are quite rare which is why I love this medium so much but I but I've I've thankfully I've surrounded
00:56:27
myself with individuals that are capable of all having these conversations and for really diving into to what it is
00:56:33
that makes us all feel alive um and I think truthfully I think I think Seekers of
00:56:40
this kind of conversation find each other it's weird they really do and you can see it in others eyes like you can see people that love this [ __ ] in their eyes and so I thankful I I mean I host
00:56:53
dinner parties and stuff and try and get as many people together to have these sort of conversations and it can be a little bit awkward for the first one
00:56:59
what are we talking about um but that's incredibly enriching to me okay so you've just you've just he teed this up so perfectly perfect hit it everything you've just described
00:57:11
the type of person that likes deep conversations is very much the type of people that listen to The Diary of a CEO
00:57:16
and we have a closing tradition on this podcast where guests write a question in the diary for the next guest they never get to see who they're writing it for so
00:57:22
because we know that the type of person that listens to this is by by clear um linkage terrible use of words the
00:57:30
type of person that likes deep conversations we wanted to take all of the questions out of this diary that have been written into them and allow
00:57:36
people to play at dinner parties the day of SEO which is they can ask their friends deep conversations that have been written into this book you also get to see who wrote the the question for the
00:57:47
first time I want to play with you yeah please right now ask me some questions I am I took some cards out there's about
00:57:53
100 cards in total but I took the ones that I thought were the biggest stitches oh man that's a great idea I love that so what I'm gonna do I will also answer
00:57:59
one yeah but I'm gonna lay them out here you pick one that you want to answer whichever one feels right for you then
00:58:05
I'll pick one as well and I'll answer it we'll go through the all of them so we'll pick one at a time
00:58:11
one can I pick one so so you answer that one I answer this one yeah this is by Tim Grover this is what is your dark side
00:58:22
um I think the Dark Side of myself is definitely the narcissistic side of myself that can come out when I am feeling super proud
00:58:33
of something that I do and I will oftentimes try to Humble that it'll get me seeking decadence it'll get me
00:58:41
seeking external stimulation from my environment and yearning for that which is you know what every stoic philosopher
00:58:47
would be like dude shut up um and I I really relate to that I think my worst side is the side that is seeking validation from other people
00:58:58
um rather than understanding and placing myself in my environment and going wow I'm so privileged to have what I have
00:59:04
and where I'm at and I believe that yeah okay mine is from wilster who is an expert on the topic of status who wrote a book about it and which is kind of about validation wanting to be famous for sure who is the person you'd most
00:59:19
like to say sorry to but haven't I told you I picked these questions to stitch you up but I decided to answer
00:59:26
them when I laid them out so my would actually be my mother yeah because she didn't get an education so
00:59:33
um I've often framed her in my story as being I don't know like she she's been the
00:59:38
center point of difficult moments in my life but she is also like the 95 of my story with her is just this woman that
00:59:44
absolutely turquoise absolutely loves me and my whole life her whole life is me and and you know like growing up she did
00:59:50
everything for us she she raised us five days a week she can't read or write herself growing up she raised these four
00:59:55
kids that I think are all pretty good decent kids um so I'd say that I'd probably say
01:00:00
sorry to her for not spending enough time in conversation talking about her Brilliance and the fact that I am the
01:00:06
reason she's the reason I'm an entrepreneur great answer man great answer I don't know I don't know
01:00:19
Rochelle Humes cool if you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently what
01:00:25
day would it be and why that's difficult I try not to live doing that too much where I feel like I need to change something but um
01:00:45
so I am sober I've been sober for about a year and some change and it's been a wonderful
01:00:52
thing in my life um but I have thankfully had the self-awareness to apologize to some people in my life in the past in a similar way that the card
01:01:04
that you just pulled um and in order to protect another person's feelings I did not tell them that I was going to be apologizing to an individual
01:01:16
um because I was afraid of the consequences of that face-to-face meeting I know this is a little
01:01:22
confusing but if I could turn back and do it differently I would be so transparent about that meeting over coffee to the affected individuals in
01:01:34
order to be like hey I'm letting you know this is happening I know that this is blah blah blah but I just want to let
01:01:40
you know with full transparency this is what it is blah blah blah um but otherwise I try not to live like that it's unclear you apologize to someone and there was there was a
01:01:51
repercussion of that apology which you wish you'd kind of foresaw and addressed yeah okay exactly right cool exactly right because sometimes meeting with other people makes others uncomfortable
01:02:03
like they're you know especially especially as you grow older some people are like why'd you meet with that individual but I think for me I would have just been super super transparent about it I'd be like
01:02:15
hey this is happening blah blah um and that's been a consequence of the work I've done as I've cleaned my life
01:02:21
up so I look back on that one day and I go hey man the work you did should have told you that you could have been fully transparent with that even if it made other people uncomfortable and I probably would have done that different
01:02:32
but otherwise I try not I really try not to think like that because they're lessons right
01:02:38
because it's all lessons because I made that mistake for a reason you know and now I'll never do it again and the fact
01:02:44
that I even said that as an answer means I've already learned my lesson you'd rather the lesson was in the past yeah
01:02:50
of course of course and in the future at some point it's a place okay here we go
01:02:55
tell me something about yourself that nobody knows and would be surprised to know about you [ __ ] you know let's uh
01:03:02
hear about your internet history bro Marissa Pierre um so I had a guest on this podcast called called Steve Peters who's just this
01:03:12
incredible like psychiatric psychiatric therapist etc etc um after he left I contacted him and spoke to him about something I was dealing
01:03:24
with this predicament in my mind and I was bouncing between two outcomes and it's the first time in my entire life
01:03:31
and I've spoken to so many therapists that I've ever spoken to a therapist privately to try and resolve something and I say that because I say that for
01:03:38
one honestly just for one reason which is I've spent so long on this podcast talking to therapists including Marissa
01:03:43
pear who wrote this question and Marissa's Marissa Pierre but I've never spoken about the fact that I too have
01:03:50
spoken to a therapist about personal challenges that I've faced and Marissa Pierre is just one of the best ever and
01:03:56
so is um Professor Steve Peters do you feel embarrassed I think I did I think I did I think I think I always have I
01:04:03
think it's funny because this is therapy for me and I lay it all out you know I yeah the diversity was
01:04:09
Diary of a CO started as like my therapy it was like me writing things in this diary then sharing with them with the
01:04:14
world but I despite my guests telling me about the profundity of speaking to someone else as you have today as you did in Canada I believe I've never done it myself until that moment
01:04:28
where I spoke to Steven said this is what I'm dealing with like how do I navigate through this and it's incredible
01:04:34
I I think it'll because you can't your brain can't think yourself out of the [ __ ] no I I also
01:04:41
think a good therapist is like you know your first house like like it arrives to
01:04:47
you precisely when it's supposed to you know it because ultimately what we're all seeking at least in therapy with the
01:04:55
help of a trained professional but it's a human connection just to another person you know we all want our Goodwill Hunting you know we want to we want to
01:05:02
sit down and have someone who has a a deeply enticing personal connection to you and goes I hear you man I hear you
01:05:09
you're okay like have you thought about it this way and so I do find a lot of these kind of conversations can be
01:05:15
inching close to that and in that way I'll say I do think there are a ton of different forms of therapy you know of self-soothing of methods I find a
01:05:27
tremendous therapy by going into the Wilderness as an example you know I I find that a really healthy thing for me to do to sort of Disconnect and leave
01:05:37
and go into the woods and do all that sort of stuff but I also think the other stuff is super valuable too and I I don't think there's any shame in talking about it I think that's great I've
01:05:48
thought about it so many times in my life like there's been so many moments in my life I think like 10 where I've seriously considered like I need I need
01:05:55
to go speak to someone else about this because I can't figure this out myself I remember like maybe two three years ago I was there was some like business
01:06:01
um challenge I was facing and it was just like keeping me up all night and I remember going on the internet contacting someone and being like can I
01:06:08
speak to you about this and it's because I'm looking for a trained professional like that can coach me through my
01:06:14
thought processes and what you've described is so interesting to me because you said two things the first thing you said is therapy in essence is
01:06:21
like a pursuit of connection with someone and then the second thing you said is about how nature is therapy
01:06:26
these are all things that humans knew very well in our Natural Life ten thousand years ago man look I studied
01:06:32
archeology and franchise over time because I know that [ __ ] isn't that funny that therapy
01:06:38
is just being more human oh I I also think look we just wanna we want to be heard man we we look for soul we all look for soul in other people we
01:06:51
want to know that Soul exists we want to justify our soul by looking for soul in other people and when you find people
01:06:56
with soul you want to hang on to people with soul that's what we do you know and I I think when you're
01:07:02
bearing your soul especially in a sort of therapy environment you want someone to to pick it up and go God I see this
01:07:10
thing man yeah I see it I did something like this so I mean for me it took me a while finding a therapist that was um that was willing to be Hands-On you know
01:07:23
there's this sort of uh hands-off approach to a lot of um you know mental health work just in general and I I just I can't do that man I need someone like you know in a sort of
01:07:36
similar way to this there's two people sitting down going God man yeah for sure if therapy is is there for connection
01:07:41
then the thing that drives us to therapy must be disconnection a feeling of Distinction of course
01:07:47
when that disconnection can be anything disconnection from nature from people from life from purpose whatever yeah it's it's
01:07:53
you know you become afraid of your own soul being too disconnected from from everything around you or that or that you're that you feel so entirely alone or unique that that
01:08:07
no one else really understands you is a hard thing so so when you go into therapy as an example and someone goes
01:08:13
yeah dude I hear you you know but then if the if the [ __ ] alarm rings and they go your hours up okay that to me uh
01:08:21
that's this connection that's just connection because then it feels like a monetary exchange I'm like I don't want that all right
01:08:27
okay I'll take this haven't I done two oh yeah that's the other one okay how could you be more authentically You by Fern cotton is that pronounced correct yeah nailed
01:08:39
it perfect how could I be more authentically you I mean I think stuff more like this I gotta be less afraid of
01:08:45
of people going wow he said what I just don't care anymore I'm like I'm dude I'm 30. I like I lived a lot of that anxiety [ __ ] in in my 20s and I
01:08:58
truly believe that your 20s are meant to be a petri dish for mistake that you're supposed to learn lessons from and go into your 30s and be be better at and I and I don't know I think I am
01:09:10
practicing authenticity in a way but I think it's complicated because I don't know
01:09:15
if a life in the in entertainment people actually seek authenticity which is something I'm dealing with and I think for acting it's also a real dilemma because the more you show an authentic
01:09:28
version of yourself the harder it can be for people to suspend that and see you as a character
01:09:34
um which is something I'm sort of sitting down and having a conversation with myself about um
01:09:40
but I'm not going to control what other people think you know and I think uh I think I am practicing authenticity in very many ways how could I be more authentically me
01:09:51
um stand on my ground set my boundaries you know recognizing my own bottom line behaviors
01:09:58
before I you know stumble into that [ __ ] um have you ever felt the cost of authenticity of inauthenticity of inauthenticity yeah yeah what is the cost in your view
01:10:10
exposure if you're exposed to be a fraudster yeah if you're exposed to be a sort of snake oil salesman that can be quite embarrassing um in inauthenticity can also get you
01:10:22
into a place where you actually don't have the skill set to perform whatever you're trying to perform but I also
01:10:28
think inauthenticity or feelings of inauthenticity are a natural part of of Courage you're going to doubt yourself a little bit before you go into anything and I I don't know I always find
01:10:41
my most effective uh means of surviving anything is just kind of being thrown into the fire and being like all right
01:10:46
I'm here what are we doing let's go all right here we go [ __ ] no stitch up James Watt what is the belief that you hold that most people disagree with you on so many in fact yeah that's great man
01:10:59
that's good um the first one I'm gonna say is what's the thing that most people disagree with
01:11:05
me on trying to decide between I'm gonna say I'm gonna say the point about manifestation
01:11:11
um I think this is super controversial because anything that gives centers people on a sense of
01:11:17
personal responsibility is typically not well received like people don't love the concept of personal responsibility
01:11:22
obviously there's lots of nuance to this but I would say that when the way that society and culture and Instagram have
01:11:29
described the process of manifestation is largely [ __ ] um and I think that manifest like
01:11:35
knowing that like the example always give is getting in the current sector Sat Nav is of course important because if I just drove without Direction I'd be
01:11:42
lost but if I don't drive I'm also just sat in my garage with a Sat Nav set all day
01:11:50
um I don't think you can just manifest your your yourself your way there in life I
01:11:55
think luck plays a huge role circumstance plays a huge role where you live if I was still in Botswana there's
01:12:00
not going to be a dire of a CEO interviewing you today right sure maybe if my if if my mum hadn't met my dad so
01:12:06
there's circumstance there's luck there is will there is hard work there is trauma there's conviction and then there
01:12:11
is also a an importance to know the direction you're going in but I think manifestation as an idea is oversold
01:12:17
because it makes life easy and comfortable and it also it obfuscates us of the responsibility of work and personal responsibility I think it is I think it's
01:12:28
absurd to pursue comfort absurd and anything you do I think at some point or another when your hands are on the wheel in this car with the sat nav you're gonna have to
01:12:40
[ __ ] drive and if the sat nav goes out um okay man you're still behind the wheel
01:12:46
driving a [ __ ] vehicle you know I I think you also have to really strongly believe
01:12:52
in yourself really strongly believe in yourself because there's a lot of things that people love gatekeeping [ __ ] it's
01:12:58
crazy everyone loves it especially on the internet they love gatekeeping it's like the first thing you're going to
01:13:04
interact with when you jump into something new people are gonna go not that guy you know what weren't you doing this or uh don't do don't talk about that don't do this people love gatekeeping which is
01:13:16
so funny because it the the idea that we have to be like these incredibly specialized needle fine like kind of
01:13:23
people is ridiculous you know I I try everything go into it boldly but you gotta believe in your success and you have to take accountability have you struggled with that late that idea of
01:13:36
being labeled as something because well of course you know there's people listening to this now who are like a lawyer or they are sure or whatever
01:13:41
right and they want they have this passion for something else it could be photography like you but they're a
01:13:47
lawyer they're bio says lawyer their LinkedIn says lawyer and the resistance the social resistance but also the
01:13:52
psychological resistance of now that label is creating keeps them confined in a way that is not fulfilling or conducive with a happier life so
01:14:03
breaking out of those labels when you're a you know a star from such a young age you get your label super early yeah Cole
01:14:09
you are an actor and there are many ways a child star is what I'm called quite often yeah which
01:14:16
okay but dude I mean look anyone that doesn't think outside of terms of labels it's just useless to me I I gotta be real like anyone that cannot find
01:14:28
a deeper Humanity in whatever um whatever kind of person they're sitting across at a table is probably a pretty useless person to talk to in my opinion um I think labels can be
01:14:40
difficult and and also helpful in very many ways let's say you're a lawyer yeah man make that money on that on that
01:14:47
label sure make that money on that label and then surround yourself with the people that don't see you as this is my
01:14:53
lawyer friend you know because you don't need that many people you need a round table of people that
01:15:00
are going to be like yeah that's coal cool wow what a Renaissance human that guy is you know that's what you really want people to say oh man what a good person that person is you know that's
01:15:11
great the label thing can be difficult but I think it's useless to think like that
01:15:18
I I think anyone that goes wow you know this anything outside of human you know is
01:15:25
silly and I know this sounds a bit woo-woo and pretentious and because it does be like don't label me ah
01:15:32
but um I think it's true I I I I don't think thinking in terms of labeling is useful in the slightest in the slightest and I I would like to think at the end of all of our Lives we we've we've
01:15:45
surrounded ourselves with you know a rich enough body of experience to go yeah man I tried blacksmithing for a
01:15:51
period of time yeah dude I crafted a little necklace well I was a silversmith for about a year and I tried that [ __ ]
01:15:57
out and it went really well um and I think people are going to try and gatekeep you but I I think what I
01:16:03
mean is that you're always gonna have to fight against some sort of label regardless of what it is and if there's
01:16:10
a bouncer at the door gate keeping you from getting inside the club guarantee you that there's a [ __ ] side entrance
01:16:16
guarantee you and you got you gotta fight your way to get there man I I I'm a firm believer in that and you have told us to recognize the kind of
01:16:28
um restrictions that are being put on you but I think you always got to fight for yourself if you don't fight for yourself legitimately no one else is
01:16:34
going to earlier on you said something to me you said have I ever you said have I ever
01:16:41
sort of hypothetically played out the scenario that that person in my life my mother might not be here and sure
01:16:47
reflecting upon that being the last conversation I'd had with her how would I feel I've got two pictures here
01:16:54
what are the words unsaid to this individual that's my father and that could be my brother or myself I have no idea what are the words that are
01:17:08
not said to that individual um you were at the exact place that you were supposed to be right when you were supposed to be there for sure
01:17:22
my father was 27. when he had two identical twin boys that's big you know I'm 30. I can't imagine having two identical twins I'm sorry to expose
01:17:34
you property immediately got a vasectomy right after he found out he was having two twins I just find that hilarious it's my favorite story about him
01:17:40
um he was an Italy at the time I'd say man what is your hair routine it's looking
01:17:45
great uh he looks like a study this is a sad photo yeah yeah for sure good job pop
01:17:53
um you're at the exact place you need to be right when you were supposed to be there and whatever happens in the following years are all
01:18:00
the lessons that you need to take for the future of your life but every step of the way you've been exactly where you're supposed to be for sure the words uncertain to this person
01:18:14
it's funny I was thinking about writing that in this journal what would you say to your child itself that's funny
01:18:22
this kid um this is me on the left Dylan on the right um I wouldn't want to condition this kid at all I see a kid that's like so present in
01:18:44
this moment and I've had this dilemma because I have some step siblings and I find myself wanting to ask them like hey
01:18:50
you've been thinking about college hey like what are you thinking about in the future
01:18:56
um I think I'd probably just talk to this kid about like hippos or platypus or some some fun [ __ ] you know Pokemon whatever it was
01:19:07
I don't I don't think it's wise to put the future or past tense thinking of an adult onto a child and I think it's
01:19:20
your responsibility as an adult who loves a child to encourage that Lantern Consciousness and that presentedness for
01:19:27
as long as you can and as far as you can and anything that takes them away from that presentedness should be the enemy
01:19:37
of your life in that child's life isn't that what happened to you yeah it is it is and that was the perfect lesson I needed to know for my eventual children what about Dylan
01:19:50
my brother and I have made it this far and have been as okay as we have become because we did not feel lonely
01:20:04
we always had each other as a frame of reference to grow up and alongside and I think um I think I'm incredibly
01:20:10
privileged for that and he is too we thankfully got to go through everything we went through alongside
01:20:17
each other and I think that's built him into the exact kind of person he's supposed to be and me as well
01:20:23
and I really am living my life now in a place where I don't look back with regrets or anger or or pain or anything
01:20:31
like that so um I don't know I'd probably kick his ass honestly if I'm thinking about it
01:20:36
now I probably I'd probably smile at myself and then beat the hell out of Dylan and I'd have reach advantage and stuff too it'd be great I'm just throwing by his legs like
01:20:48
Bowser we have a closing tradition this podcast with the last guest asks a question for the next guest the question that's been
01:20:54
left for you you have one last piece of work to do what is that piece of work and why if I had children
01:21:07
make sure that they were okay try and make sure Ensure that whatever I could do is My Last Action would create
01:21:20
more easiness for them um because life is Gonna Roll Over you regardless you know regardless of how easy you've had it I would try to have
01:21:32
one last thing said or done that helped them in the future you went straight to Children yeah and if I was a grandfather I would take all of my cash
01:21:46
and convert it into some sort of gold Doubloon and I would bury that [ __ ] I'm not telling you where but I would send them on the greatest treasure hunt ever I mean really give
01:22:00
them one one thing that they said God Grandpa wasn't saying but what a story he gave us you know Goonies Style I want I want to be
01:22:11
I want to be the guy that like sends his grandkids I'm like oh grandpa Cole was just insane man but man he was a wacky
01:22:19
guy he found the treasure I wouldn't make it too hard you know but I'd want them to go someplace sounds like a great
01:22:25
movies plot yeah maybe maybe they'll write it who knows grandfather Cole work is interesting though it's a really
01:22:30
interesting question because I hope I'm not working really I don't like I hope I don't see it as
01:22:36
work okay you didn't see photography is work no no I don't see acting like the stuff I feel really passionate about as as uh as work either have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly
01:22:48
no I think it'll be fun cool thank you yeah a huge honor yeah and tremendously valuable for for me more than I could probably tell you but meeting people like you that have gone
01:22:59
through unique life experiences and are able to look back introspectively and sort of
01:23:05
um historically and depict that in such a self-aware honest vulnerable way is the very reason I started doing this and the very reason I continue to do it um so I thank you because it's a real I
01:23:15
feel like you've um I feel like I feel like I owe you something for being I know this is how I
01:23:22
always feel for for all of the lessons I know for the rest of my life get to go on with from your journey and um as a
01:23:28
fan of yours now both your art and your photography I guess are the same thing you're but but just for semantics
01:23:35
um I'm gonna follow I'm gonna continue to follow you with a renewed perspective on on your humility your talent and your
01:23:42
Humanity well thank you and by the way um every conversation like this we trade just as much for anyone that's empathetic which you seem to be um you trade just as much this is a beauty
01:23:54
you and I were both August 1992 from very different backgrounds and yet we can still sit around a round table
01:24:01
and go man I know the feelings of what you've gone through even though you and I are very different people yeah and I think that's the beauty of it you know that's the beauty of of
01:24:11
that connection I've been talking about I think empathy is the currency of all this
01:24:17
stuff and you've asked some really wonderful questions and I'm glad that I was able to answer in a way that that
01:24:22
hopefully brought out something but uh thank you again thank you for having me that was really wonderful thank you
01:24:30
[Music] it's now been a healed Drinker for about four years roughly so much so that I
01:24:37
ended up investing in the company um and I play a role on the board of the company but they also very kindly sponsor this podcast and to be honest
01:24:43
I've never said this before but he will believed in this podcast before anybody else the CEO Julian um told me before we even launched the
01:24:50
podcast how successful it would be and that he'll would back it and I absolutely have a huge amount of gratitude for them for that support but
01:24:56
an even greater sense of gratitude for the fact that they've helped me stay nutritionally complete throughout the chaos and hecticness of my tremendously
01:25:03
busy business schedule so if you haven't tried out here which I hope most of you have at least given it a go by now try
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it out it's an unbelievable way to try and stay nutritionally on course if you have a hectic busy schedule and let me
01:25:15
know what you think send me a tweet and a DM tag me let me know what you think quick quote from one of our sponsors I
01:25:20
have to say I've been on a bit of a journey with this brand because when I started my business in new territories
01:25:25
when we first moved social chain to the to New York City the first place we went to was wework we moved four of our team
01:25:31
members out to New York City and we built the business from there um I have to say there's something magical about weworks I've spent the
01:25:38
last two or three weeks in LA in a wee work and as you walk in the front door every day it's almost like that sense of
01:25:45
community that sense of magic excitement camaraderie is tangible and you don't get that when you're working at home you don't get that often when you're sat in your bed on your laptop there's something about getting out and getting
01:25:57
into a wee work that makes me feel a sense of Entrepreneurship and and creativity and building and the way that
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we work to design both both in the way that they offer subscriptions so that you can work you know on demand but also
01:26:10
the the flexibility of the contracts means that it's just the perfect place for businesses to scale their companies
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and if you haven't checked out where you work and you want to you can go to we.co CEO and there you can get 50 off
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at trial Day At wework Close to You [Music] thank you [Music]