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Frank Donald Trump was obsessed with me the mayor of London wasn't somebody of my background my faith he wouldn't
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responded the way he did would he mayor of London City Khan is the first Muslim man has made some powerful opponents the
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new image of Britain's Multicultural Society the mayor is with us do you think London's safe uh well we've
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reduced homicides live crime family crime I don't think people feel safe in London I'm not excusing it I'm explaining it because of consequences
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there's been a lot of instances of police officers who have attacked raped women and girls on the Streets of London what are you doing about that we're doing it now how am I being criticized
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for this since you were elected mayor what are the things you look at and go do you know I failed there well that's a
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good question but I'm running for election in 467 days time I'm not going to answer that question honestly because anything else is going to use against me
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you can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you I think most MPS have got to be inauthentic are Ty
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because what's been your hardest day as London mayor there's been a few at least 58
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people were killed in the fire at grenfell Tower I still remember the images I still remember the heat one
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family six people wiped out and a number of Terror attacks in London London Bridge Westminster Bridge Finsbury Park
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I went to a lot of funerals that summer was hard I just want to start this episode with a message of thanks a thank you to everybody that Tunes in to listen to
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this podcast by doing so you've enabled me to live out my dream but also for many members of our team to live out
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their dreams too it's one of the greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life to get to do this to get to learn from these
00:01:42
people to get to have these conversations to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective trying to solve problems I have in my life so I
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feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is can I ask you a favor I can't
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tell you how much you can change the course of this podcast the the course of the guests were able to invite to the
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show and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing and that simple thing is hitting
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that subscribe button helps this channel more than I could ever explain the guests on this platform are incredible
00:02:13
because so many of you have hit that button and I know when we think about what we want to do together over the
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next year on this show a lot of it is going to be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed in that tune into
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this show every week so thank you let's keep doing this and I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show for
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us as a community and for this platform [Music] Sadiq give me your context I spent a long time reading through your Baxter and I think it's an especially important place to
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start because it appears to be much of your your reason for being and your reason for doing so can you take me right back
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um I want to hear about Pakistan I want to hear about your your earliest years in London sure
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so first it's a pleasure to to be on this uh Stephen can I just just say two things before we start it's not me being
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a sycophant and please don't think I'm being patronizing but firstly um I think you realize that you're a
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massive role model to so many londoners and there are people that you will never meet
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who you've had an impact on and so thank you firstly for that and and I meet people that you don't meet who when I
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say Who's Your Role Models uh and I pray you need to give examples of the hard work you do uh so so thank you for that
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but secondly congratulations it's always lovely to meet someone who's incredibly successful um who's normal so my my family's uh
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story uh is quite complicated uh my grandparents and great-grandparents were in India both of my mum's side and my dad's side and the story of India is India was part
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of the British Empire and the short version of the long story is in 1947 the British decided to give up India and partition India I don't want to go
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into divide and Rule and stuff but there'd been sectarian violence now between Muslims Sikhs and Hindus and a
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Muslim in India wasn't safe just like a Sikh in Hindu generally speaking in West Pakistan news Pakistan
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won't say why because these countries were going to be stensibly Muslim and the middle India ostensibly Hindu and
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Sikh so my grandparents and great grandparents left everything behind everything behind
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so my parents had experienced being immigrants once already right from India to Pakistan and they had a comfortable
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life in Pakistan middle class not middle class uh my Dad decided he was in the Pakistani Air Force he went first to Australia uh and
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if any Australians watching this this is no expression on your country it's a great country right he didn't really like Australia and so when he went when
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he went back to Pakistan he didn't want to go to Australia to live and then he came to London
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and uh he made London his home and this is a London which yes when he first came
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there were signs saying you know no blacks no Irish no dogs by blacks anybody who wasn't white and when I
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compare my mum and dad who traveled you know three four thousand miles learned a new language learned a new culture raised a family
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I was born in Tuten in St George's hospital I first lived a mile up the road in the Henry Prince estate on a
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council estate my parents moved a mile the other way afterwards when my dad managed to save a deposit for a house
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and I now live a mile and a half from where I was born so I've literally gone up a mile radius right from where I was
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born in my grandparents and my parents had this huge strife and travel this way so I'll be the first Con in three
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generations and not to be a migrant because I'm I'm staying here that whole experience growing up in a house of 10
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10 people eight siblings in total um in a in a council house um flat flat yeah Council flat um the The Immigrant story you've told there
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watching your parents struggle to provide for both for all of you um what imprint has that left on you when you look back and go that's why I am the
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way that I am that's it's really I'm really trying to get at the real defining attributes the things that make City different from the the average
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person on the street the work ethic the piss but you know um and with that I also want to know you know one of my guests on this podcast that was the coach for Michael Jordan Kobe Bryant said that we all have a dark
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side and much of our dark side is can be attributed to the thing that makes us quote unquote great you've seen the Last
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Dance yeah oh God it sounds amazing my favorite from upstairs in the wall yeah so so
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um so I think you tend to mirror emulate and be like those you're around you copy their mannerisms their behaviors and so
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forth and I I was raised in a family where we felt incredibly privileged mum and dad both made sure we understood
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that this privilege meant with a responsibility to you know listen to your teachers at school
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to work hard um and you know to to you know not be Ashoka basically and so you know all of us not just had a really
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good worth of work ethics still do all of us also it's interesting I just think about this the other night
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I've given saying back whether it's coaching in boxing or whether it's you know volunteering at a swimming club
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whether it's you know politics or whatever because that came from our parents what we saw in relation and also what we saw
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was going on the estate and how I've what our friends are doing and stuff and you know and the interesting thing about our
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estate was everyone worked all the dads worked most of the mums had a job and you know there
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was a work ethic and a sense of community I'm not pretending it was brilliant you know roast into glasses
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and stuff but yeah so you know that you know my wife often you know jokes that you know I can't sit around doing nothing I've
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always got to be doing something because I always saw my dad doing something even if I went on you know the odd day he'd have off he'd take us to museums take us
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to galleries go out on a tour of London go to Hyde Park so so there's no there was no time for doing nothing um and so it's really and so I it's hard
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for me to actually spend down time go to the theater and just do Leisure or you know read a book for
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for the sake of reading a book and stuff because you know they were go-getters I I saw that throughout your story um and
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I heard it from some of your colleagues as well that and I also heard you say in fact in one
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interview where you said that you work seven days a week not very healthy yes and no so um I'm very lucky I'm privileged I'm I'm
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mayor London I did a meeting last week with my staff and my my sort of top staff and I said
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to them last week listen um I would reply for my job at the next election in this term we have 475 days left that's now down to four or
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six seven days left at the time we're recording this we've got to work in the basis but there is a possibility I'll try my best that
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it doesn't happen the responsibility I will not be re-elected when I reply for my job
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londoners will say no we've got to use every single day we have left every hour we have left to make sure we maximize delivering for our city to make it safer
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to make it fairer to make it greens make it more prosperous you can't afford to waste this time it's a privilege it's a privilege to what about you though in
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your in your family and all the other things that make life you know worth living it's not just work right yeah but
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but some of the stuff I do is work without being work I'll give you an example so I might go and support
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uh a theater production my support is going along to watch it and they can then amplify it I've been there right but it's a great night for for my wife and I or I might do say with with my
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daughters and stuff you know but I recognize that my my wife and daughters and my mum and my brothers and sisters
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and my in-laws you know have no sacrifices by me doing my job you know and I'm cognizant of
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that and I'm grateful for that you can't do the job that I'm doing without the support of your family by the way you
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can also do this job I work three days a week the previous guy did that right you can do that right but he meant I felt
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privileged to do the job I think it's a privilege and I remember when I was in government
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um I don't remember in 2010 uh the last year I sat around the cabinet with uh you know Gordon Brown
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and the team and I think there are some incredibly talented people around that cabinet in
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the prime of their game it's an incredibly talented special advisors in the prime of their game
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we lost the general election and their Peak years they're not in government they're not
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advising the government had I known in 2005 when I first became an MP and had you know Tony and Gordon
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sat down with 300 plus MPS and say listen we've got to maximize these five years
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between thousand five thousand and ten I think things may have been different because we'd realize it's a privilege
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we're going to use every day we have you know so I'm not criticizing Tony and going but I'm saying you don't know how
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long you've got your job right and so my views you make the most of it it's time to rest later on
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that's also not guaranteed though right well you know in terms of Life generally yeah but you know I love my job I've
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I've been lucky to have three big jobs I was a lawyer for 11 years loved it loved being loyal I was a parliamentarian and
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a minister for 11 years loved it but I'm neither May I've been the mayor for the last six and five years and so if you're
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lucky enough to have a job you love and your family supportive you've got to have a supportive family my wife is so
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supportive she's not just a an incredible chead she gives me good advice she pulls me up you know when I
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when I bring the arrogance home or I have delusions of grandeur you know she makes sure I put the bins out she makes
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sure that I'm doing my behaving up cleaning up and stuff you need that at home that's sort of you need that sense of normality home my daughter's Jews I
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mean you know they there's no is the greatest in my house they're both back home now to finish University they're both working
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um and so they're supportive they support what I'm doing uh they know I'm here um it's your wife and I said to her I
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said what are you um what annoys you about City because I could tell you what my girlfriend would say she'd say she said
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Stephen is just an hour and a half how long have you got and uh it's Anonymous I'm sure there's a long list of stuff I mean I think I think uh because people
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don't get to see that the impact that being a politician has on the family at home now this is one of the things I'm super interested in with all my guests
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is um how they how that then impacts all the people we don't get to see yeah yeah
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it's that's right so what I did at early stage was I involved uh my office so my
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my team mouth is a lot of them are now my best friends I've worked with them so long they know my they're not Sadia and they
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know the kids so uh simple things you know my team will send Sardi in my diary for the week in advance so that's what I'm doing the nights I'm out the nights I'm in which things should be coming
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along to and so the family's involved in that at home we have uh you know on on the fridge or which tells us who's at home for walking Luna and so forth and so we've got it it only works when you
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share what you're doing and stuff my wife's got her own you know she's got two jobs herself so it only works if you know everyone's on the same page
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it does not work and a lot of my friends in politics marriage breakups a lot of my friends in the law marriage breakups you know all the sorts of problems and stuff so you've got to have not just
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somebody who you know is supportive of you doing it but he's an active player and you're doing it and you've got to make sure
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that parts of your work life are sharing with your home life there's a couple of conditions we have
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at home what is the biggest friction though that's the question yeah so I mean we don't have much friction at home I mean work-life balance is an issue uh
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you know me missing another family event or or may not be able to go to um a distant friends or relations social event but we don't really do friction
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I'm trying you know trying to think that the last time we had you know starting management so last Saturday for example uh and I I was
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doing something for work and then I promised to go to and you know party in Eastbourne uh uh an anniversary party of
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a friend and you know and then do same back in London on Sunday so managing that with negotiating that with my wife
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and my daughters was was quite was Quite a feat you mentioned you're a lawyer firm um just just more than a decade
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I'm always um I'm always I think the word is skeptical I've said this to Matt Hancock when I spoke to him about like
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why politicians become politicians um you had a great job you know paid a lot of money you made the decision to to quit that job very
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abruptly and go into politics and become ultimately a labor MP why so so the the the sort of the qualification to to that question you're
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right by the way that's all right is it was the MP for two tin yep so what I wasn't going to do is give up my illegal
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Korean by the way it was it wasn't just a great little career but a great future ahead of me because you know you know it's just the two of us around the
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business very profitable gone from being you know a business we just employing eight people to more than 50 while I was
00:15:30
a partner but the opportunity came to be the MP for two teen tuition I was born and raised in literally the MP for tuition
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at a guy called Tom Cox had been the MP my entire life I'd never known any other MP I'd never been inside the Chamber of
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Parliament I didn't know any friends who were MPS uh I didn't really know any friends in politics I don't think I was a counselor
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in my spare time uh look at you know serving the local community as a lawyer in my spare time I was in my
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spare time I was chair of Liberty Human Rights group you know chair of legal action group a legal aid charity group
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um but the opportunity came to be the MP4 tutin and you know I couldn't say no um because you know it was the chance to represent my community in Parliament and
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the way I described at the time because people saying to me what are you doing why it just makes sense
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was you know I was blessed to have a good legal career and if I won a case for my client
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uh he or she benefited or if I sell the case if the case went to one of the higher courts we'd said a president Senator
00:16:32
president means that other people benefit from the president of the case because you've changed the law
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and that's a big deal and you know I was blessed to do that but when you're in Parliament and you're part of the
00:16:43
government you can pass legislation or amend legislation that affects millions of people uh so
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not just people in tutin but people across our city and our country and being the MP for two-ton uh was why I
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gave up the hill career not to be an mp4 MP's sake to be the MP for tooting why does that matter to you helping
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millions of people it's my it's it's public service right it's it's the ability to impact and improve people's
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uh lives I could have you know when I left when I left Law School gotten worked in the city and you know
00:17:14
being a City lawyer but I chose to do the law that I chose to do for a variety of reasons you know it's important for
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me to be a lawyer practicing you know discrimination or you know issues around police misconduct issues around uh
00:17:26
employment law do litigation sort of cases that I that I undertook what motivated me was this issue of acting on
00:17:32
behalf of the underdog uh being the advocate for people I grew up with who were routinely you know the
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wrong end of the sus law stop and search people I knew who were unfairly dismissed uh people who you know I was
00:17:47
aware who had been discriminated against you know um acting for the victims of miscarriages of Justice um that was important to me why a number of reasons my inspiration for
00:18:00
being lawyer is uh we read To Kill a Mockingbird no I wouldn't be Atticus Finch right well you know we wouldn't be
00:18:06
at Alex's Finch and then and then when I watched uh when I was growing up this this program on TV you're too young to
00:18:11
remember it called La law I wanted to be this local Fuentes Jimmy Smith's played this lawyer who was doing
00:18:16
this really good cases but also remember a number of things happened around that time where I felt helpless
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uh you know the way my dad was treated in his bus garage the bus garage closing down felt hopeless we couldn't do anything about it you know getting a
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March is fine but you need to challenge this in the course if you could if you couldn't use the use the the court
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system you want to change the laws you know seeing friends Street the way they were and and I thought
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it's not wrong but there's no way of helping you know people who need help and being a lawyer is a noble thing I
00:18:47
know people I know lawyers get a bad bad rep and you know uh some lawyers doing a lot of money
00:18:52
but people who do the law that I was doing you know uh don't earn a lot of money some do and I was very lucky to to
00:18:58
do well but it's important to me public service to act on behalf of these uh people who act some power for the person
00:19:04
who's the receiving in a police misconduct who actually part of the person who's uh you know discriminated
00:19:10
on the grounds of their race or gender in the in the workplace so what I got from that is your dad was I'm trying to
00:19:16
understand the personal reasons why you chose that path which is like you know like we've all chosen our past for
00:19:22
for interesting reasons I think a lot of my path was defined by my own insecurities as a kid what I've heard though is your the thing about your
00:19:28
dad's bus um Depot being shut down that's garage and then there was some of your friends
00:19:34
in your life had experienced certain types of abuse that were um because of the race or but also mistreatment by the police that that was your like personal motivation right yeah yeah yes so so
00:19:46
those are my experiences my experience growing up was that you know actually life isn't always fair and you need
00:19:52
somebody to be there to help you um and it's never been about you know it sounds you know uh Frankly Speaking about you know
00:20:04
wankerish but it's never been about yourself making money none of my siblings have you know following followed paths
00:20:10
which is interesting none of us have followed paths where it's been about you know making money for money's sake it's about doing a job we enjoy
00:20:17
and trying to give someone back where you can whether it's being a teacher whether it's being you know a coach or whatever
00:20:23
over the last 10 years in your own view which direction do you think London has gone in as in terms of like safety and in terms of um desirability and in terms of world
00:20:35
influence over the last let's say 10 years because it's I think it's my view that it's it's it's probably gone
00:20:41
in a negative Direction in terms of like influence safety um and yeah I think generally like the respect of the of the capital and I think I mean a number of factors
00:20:54
have contributed to that obviously the pandemic has been a big one but then I think generally the the knife crime issue and the safety issues and these
00:20:59
are all things influenced by biases right because I was when I moved to London I was burgled really badly 3 A.M
00:21:05
in the morning came in my house stole everything we never heard anything back from the police there was no interest in in helping us so
00:21:12
um but just generally I've lived in other parts of the world yeah no sure sure you know I lived in the Middle East lived in spent time in Dubai's lived in
00:21:18
New York for many many years um New York's not not necessarily safe at all but other parts of the world seem
00:21:25
to be much safer and it's funny because when I speak to some of my um friends who've been successful in business and they talk about why they're
00:21:31
leaving the UK it's one of the top three reasons there's always safety it's always I don't feel safe in London
00:21:37
before I before before you before we had this had this conversation I was listening to um Amir Khan talk about him
00:21:44
being robbed on the High Street in London coming out a restaurant at gunpoint you see the footballers the Arsenal players all being robbed at
00:21:50
knife point on mopeds my girlfriend had her phone snatched out of her hand while walking you know and you just think oh
00:21:55
God it's not safe to be in London first it's already sort of your experience and I wasn't too distressed
00:22:01
so so if you look at London over the last uh 10 years the last 20 years even uh if you parked brexit for a second uh
00:22:08
because we can come back to that in relation to the impact of brexit on uh London London is a global City uh uh you
00:22:14
know I don't want to go to various metrics but it's we're doing incredibly well as a global City in relation to uh
00:22:20
foreign direct investment in relation to uh the diversity of people coming to London in relation to
00:22:27
you know the tourism of London in relation to retention of talent uh in relation to the diversity of our economy it's not just the financial services Professional Services Legal
00:22:37
Services Life Sciences higher education um culture Tech so forth so the underlying strengths are still there and we are doing incredibly well we punch well above our weight in relation to the
00:22:50
rest of the country because of how well we're doing we contribute roughly speaking every year net to the treasury at 42 billion pounds
00:22:58
and it's been going up over the period of time so so we uh you know as a slice of the national pie contribute far more
00:23:04
but then we're supposed to be remind the size of our city and it's because we've managed to attract talent and keep
00:23:10
Talent that's why I'm here yeah but the reason why I might go is because it's okay and so and so one of the challenges
00:23:16
we've had post brexit to keep that Talent here and we can talk about some of the stuff we've done to keep it in relation to safety it is a fact and I I
00:23:24
and I'm really sorry for for your experience uh genuinely Stephen because I've met too many people like you being
00:23:29
the victims of crime but I'm afraid the bad news is since 2012 uh and nationally 2013 uh serious
00:23:38
violence has been going up since 2013. across our country including London London is not separate from the rest of
00:23:44
the country and feeling the impact now without excusing criminality and I'm not excusing those people of burglary
00:23:49
house by the way and I'm not saying this for their motivation but there is a link between and crime is
00:23:55
complex causes by the way without excusing it you know and I believe very simply you've got to deal with it in two
00:24:01
ways one is to be tough on crime more pleasing given the support they need to to make sure they deal with the the
00:24:08
criminals I call it public health approach and it comes to explain what I mean on top of the complex causes of crime in relation to dealing with
00:24:13
underlying causes deprivation poverty elimination inequality and so forth you can't escape the fact that since 2010
00:24:20
we've had massive austerity in this country so there had been 21 000 fewer police officers across the country in the last 12 years that is a fact we've got youth clubs that have closed down
00:24:31
use centers closed down after school club's not taking place weekend clubs not taking place uh unemployment's gone
00:24:37
uh High until very recently and so forth I'm not excusing it I'm explaining it and so uh you know when I became mayor one of the things I promised London as I would do is to be straight with londoners about the problems in relation
00:24:50
to I was quite clear straight away saying listen these Cuts have consequences and we've
00:24:56
got to recognize there were consequences so I'm going to use the limited powers I have and raise council tax
00:25:04
that's one lever to bring money in and use it to pay for more police officers and I was criticized for doing so but I
00:25:09
had to do it because of your experience was when I'd heard too many times before so we've paid for 1300 more officers not
00:25:16
enough but it's what all I can do there's a limit how much you can raise council tax to it's a regressive tax
00:25:22
but also use business rates money to open up youth clubs again youth centers employee youth workers have summer schemes we have now 32 000 mentors we're
00:25:33
going to get to 100 000 of the next two three years mentors are crucial in my view and the good news I'm not complacent at
00:25:40
all and Amir Khan's experience was also awful was the good news is we have bucked the national Trend so across the country homicides are going up in London they're going down we've
00:25:52
reduced homicides knife crime gun crime 10 and shopping science burglary since I
00:25:57
became mayor nowhere near low enough uh because we've got to invest more in the police and invest more in the causes of crime and when I talk about public health approach Stephen what I mean by that is this
00:26:09
think of crime as you would a public health issue what would you do you deal with the infection you've got
00:26:14
to kill the infection right more police officers uh you know go to arrest people you've got to stop the infection
00:26:21
spreading really important we stop you know the crime spreading people thinking that you can be successful by being a
00:26:26
criminal we've got to stop it deal with the gang so forth but stop the infection occurring in the first place stop the
00:26:32
crime occurred in the first place and you know uh it's a source of Pride to me we've not made the progress but our policies being tough and crime and invested in the police and we are
00:26:43
reforming the police at the same time but also invested in young people is leading to the turnaround in London and
00:26:49
we've backed the national trade in London and it's a global City sorry as a global City uh you speak to as I do regularly the
00:26:56
mayor of New York the mayor of Chicago the mayor of La those are our comparators with respect not do you know
00:27:01
it is I just I would just like to feel really safe and I I when I go to other places if you
00:27:07
go to a somewhere in the middle east or Dubai or whatever it might be you feel exceptionally safe you know so it's like to be honest I
00:27:14
went to Indonesia I was Indonesia a couple of weeks ago I was in Bali I said to my girlfriend I said you could leave you could leave your wallet on the floor
00:27:19
here and it would still be there an hour later when you come back you do that in London you know not only have you lost your
00:27:25
wallet you probably come back you've lost your shoes or something you know like and I just it's all sucks so great charity generosity and you know
00:27:30
londoners aren't quite all quite like that Stephen I don't think they feel safe I don't think people feel safe enough and more so if you're Auburn or a
00:27:38
girl if you think you don't feel safe one of the big challenges that we've got is making sure that women and girls feel safe is this all solvable in your view
00:27:43
without doubt we saw in the hell we saw in the uh 2000s uh you know uh between 997 and uh you know the mid-naughties huge progress made in reducing crime uh and
00:27:55
it was dealing with the two things that I said you've got to be tough and crime top of the causes you're invest in policing but also invest in dealing with
00:28:01
the causes of uh a policing definitely solvable we've made progress uh in the past we're making progress in London uh
00:28:08
and now we've got to make sure at the same time of course you know we reform the police we'll publicize issues in uh
00:28:14
policing London has got to be the eyes in the Years there are some amazing citizens in London who you know would
00:28:21
return the wallet to you uh you know if you left it you know if you'd lost it or left around in London we'll report
00:28:27
something taking place we'll come forward if they're a witness of crime we'll come forward and support the police that are victim of a crime we'll
00:28:33
join the Police Service these problems are definitely solvable uh we've done it in the past we're doing it now and with
00:28:40
the possibility you know in the not distant future of a you know changing government and a government that invests
00:28:45
in public services it definitely solvable on the one of the points you made there about the infection spreading I thought
00:28:50
was quite compelling I was reading about the the story of um I think it's hars rat Wally the story of an 18 year old guy who was in Twickenham was approached by a 16
00:29:02
year old kid ended up being stabbed to death by Within 18-inch knife because he got into an argument with this person and when that 16 year old that stabbed him to death was asked he said he stabbed him because
00:29:12
he was people in his life had been um victims of knife crime and he he thought he was scared that
00:29:18
hazrat would have a knife himself that's the infection you're talking about yes basically what happens is
00:29:24
um some young people that I speak to um will think the way to be safe is to carry a knife because they suspect you might be carrying knife right and so we've got to get the message
00:29:35
across that you know leaving it home with a knife doesn't make you more safe it makes you less safe so if you go to a primary school not not a secondary school a primary school
00:29:45
uh across the country by the way and you have a classroom of 30 people and you say how many of you know somebody carrying the knife
00:29:56
you'll be shocked the number of hands that go up in a primary school right uh secondary school is even higher and so there is this belief amongst young people
00:30:07
that Karen the life makes you more safe not less safe and by the way I went to a tough Secondary School lots of fights
00:30:13
nobody even thought about taking a knife to school right or getting involved with knives at all and you know
00:30:19
um so we've got to deal with that issue at source to make sure young people understand the
00:30:25
dangers so we're going to school speaking to young people people with credibility you've got to have somebody who's the message carrier needs to be
00:30:31
somebody who kids respect and will listen to right and so getting people to go into schools to explain the dangers
00:30:37
sometimes it's a bereaved mum and bereaved mum can be really effective in explaining the story about her son tends
00:30:43
to be boys about her son and the dangers of carrying the knife so we're going to stop it at source we've also going to
00:30:49
make sure Frankly Speaking that there's intelligence-led stop and search because if you're covering the knife I want you
00:30:54
to be stopped and searched if you've got a knife taken off you I would bet progress in taking knives off people which is saving life's weapon sweeps is
00:31:01
really important but also if you're caught having the knife there's got to be serious sentences there's got to be a consequence of you carrying that knife
00:31:07
but you know and that's why we're gonna have these conversations that's why it's the public health approach and it is leading to you know huge reductions you
00:31:13
know over the last year we've had a 55 reduction in doing homicides not enough one is one too many
00:31:20
uh you know a few homicides last year then when I first became uh mayor not enough but we're making progress because
00:31:25
the investment is now starting to pay dividends in relation to youth clubs youth work going into schools more
00:31:32
police officers there was a there was a big drop in knife crime wasn't there um was it 2020 would I say
00:31:38
so is that the pandemic so the pandemic we saw a reduction a number of reasons obviously for three months people but
00:31:44
there was a lockdown and stuff but and those that progress we've carried on but it's starting to go down before the pandemic uh we first started investing
00:31:51
in it's called the Young londoners Fund in about 20 18 19 but it takes some time to get youth workers back employed you
00:31:57
centers back open and also young people starting to have these points landed on them uh it's not there's not you know light bulb moment it's going to take time spend time with them that's why mentors are so important the reason I
00:32:08
made the point at the beginning Stephen about about you as a role model is you know I'm a firm believer and you can't you can't be if you can't see it right I
00:32:15
was lucky I was lucky that I saw at home my mum working really hard my dad working really hard my Big Brother's working really hard I draw models a lot
00:32:21
of young people haven't got that role model at home the youth worker is their role model a youth worker is an amazing
00:32:27
asset to a young person if you've not got the role model at home in relation to a big brother a friend somebody you
00:32:33
can ring up somebody give you careers advice you know a lot of young people don't have to put up a tie right they had to shave I can't go for a job
00:32:38
interview those soft skills we're teaching young people now you may think why are you teaching young people as soft skills because they need those soft
00:32:44
skills right well knife crimes up since last year though isn't it no it's gone down so basically knife grounds knife
00:32:49
ground's gone down since I became mayor uh homicides comes down since last year no robberies got off a bit Robert's got
00:32:56
off about for a number of reasons uh we're dealing with the uh um yeah uh a robberies when you're up yeah out and about okay robbery sorry robbery's burglary with violence right
00:33:07
um my last question on that topic is do you think London's safe uh well I asked that question by your answer if
00:33:15
you don't feel it's safe it's not safe right and so do you feel it safe yeah I do because my comparator isn't
00:33:22
with respect Bali or ordered by my comparatories New York Chicago um those cities because we are a global
00:33:29
City Stephen uh you know we're not we're not Cheshire right and so you know but but if it's not safe for you it's not
00:33:34
safe for me I speak to too many women and girls they say it's not safe I speak to too many women in particular who say
00:33:40
they're imposing a curfew in themselves not to go at night time because they don't feel safe in that case it's not
00:33:46
safe I speak to too many um you know people who are worried about their safety and you know perception is
00:33:53
is important here because it's fear of crime that you're talking about because of your experience right uh and you'll
00:33:59
speak to your friends and not reasonably that they'll be apprehensive and scared so it's a problem for me as we've got to
00:34:04
address it women and girls there's been um a lot of talk recently about instances of police
00:34:12
officers who have attacked raped with women and girls on the Streets of London what are you doing about that to prevent
00:34:23
that happening going forward so in the last few years has been at last publicity given to the fact that every three days across our country a woman is
00:34:35
killed at the hands of a man every three days that's a sobering fact recently we've seen not just the tragic murders of Sarah everard um you know Zara Alina you know Bieber
00:34:49
and Nicole uh you know and many others Sabina Nessa but also we've seen people who we entrust to keep us safe peace officers police officers
00:35:01
the people we go to and we're the victims of crime being involved in the most serious crimes possible
00:35:07
Sarah everard was abducted by a man using his Warren card raped and killed by serving police officer we had David Carrick somebody who'd been
00:35:19
a police officer for almost 20 years we discovered throughout most of his 20 years
00:35:25
had been a prolific sexual offender used in the fact he's a police officer to commit some of those crimes but also it appears there are opportunities for the police
00:35:37
during the vetting process to find out this guy was a criminal and not just stop him being a police officer but take action against him my view that I've been making clear for
00:35:48
a number of years now and I've been criticized for this is I think there are sustaining cultural issues in the Police Service one of the
00:35:55
reasons why ultimate has come ultimately lost confidence in the previous commissioner was my lack of belief in her ability to
00:36:02
understand this as an issue have a plan to address this I have a plan to impact the trusted confidence of londoners
00:36:09
and so we've got to make sure we have a reforming commissioner doing this job unless the guy at the top or the woman
00:36:14
at the top understands the problem how you're going to fix it I think the new commissioner and his Deputy understand there's a problem and I've got a plan to
00:36:20
fix it they're taken on board the recommendations from an outsider you can't Mark your own homework you need
00:36:26
somebody else to look into things tell you how bad things are make recommendations and follow them through so we've got an outsider Louise Casey talking to us going on in the Met Police
00:36:37
Service she's published an interim report the Commissioners accepted all the findings she will now publish her final
00:36:43
report later on this year we need to change the rules around how police officers are employed so if a member of
00:36:48
your staff had a nickname the bastard if I would raise questions for you right why is this guy's nickname
00:36:55
amongst his colleagues the bastard or other nicknames that police officers involved in this stuff have had no
00:37:00
action taken against them because it's very difficult for commission and others to get rid of
00:37:06
dodgy officers the regulations make it difficult one asking necessarily in all cases for
00:37:12
criminal prosecution we're asking for those officers to be at least sacked so we're lobbying the government to change the regulations to make it easier
00:37:18
for the commission to get rid of dodgy officers we've set up a hotline for people can ring in and police officers can ring in about dodgy Behavior other officers from City Hall without government
00:37:29
support from City Hall were investing more money in ramping up the vetting processes right this guy should have
00:37:36
been spotted a mile away I've also asked the commissioner he's well it was his idea to be fair to go back 10 years and
00:37:43
look at every single time a police officer has had a complaint made against them of this nature to see if any other
00:37:48
opportunities missed with other officers we've also got a new unit which we're invested in an anti-abuse and Corruption
00:37:54
unit but my view is this by the way in London we've shown a spotlight on this but
00:38:00
there are other police forces around the country where you know I'm sure there are other issues where that spotlight's not been
00:38:06
shown yet and so it's really important for us to recognize these systemic cultural issues across our country that demand addressing
00:38:13
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00:39:43
this before but he actually said to me when I started the podcast he was like you're gonna absolutely kill it you'll have millions of subscribers you'll be
00:39:49
this big you'll be that big so many people will listen and I don't know if I believed it if I'm being completely honest but he believed in Us in this
00:39:56
show um before we'd released one episode which is a remarkable thing and he gave me a huge amount of self-belief in
00:40:01
myself so thank you Julian Hearn for that but also thank you huel for creating a product that has helped me and help my health stay intact in my
00:40:08
busiest days over the last couple of years episode what's been your hardest day as London
00:40:15
mayor there's been a few I think grunfeld Tower that I still remember the images that's remember the Heat
00:40:26
I went to a lot of funerals um that summer was that someone was hard I still I'm still
00:40:32
touched with the families that I see them often and whenever I see them it comes back my grandfather was just it was just and it still it still sticks
00:40:43
with me because it it could have been us it's councilor State diverse estate lovely community those families will not be the same again um
00:40:54
and every time I go there and I spend time with the families you just you just think what these
00:41:06
families are going through your one family six people wiped out uh another 11 year old child
00:41:13
who'd want to asset competition and you know when you speak to those who were the judges she would have gone on
00:41:19
to being you know this amazing woman lost their life in that fire and so that 2017 was hard because we also had at the same time the orphan grenfell and a number of Terror attacks in London
00:41:33
uh London Bridge uh Westminster Bridge uh Finsbury Park um that some was harder you know because I spent a lot of time I I like I like I
00:41:46
liked I think it's important for me to spend time with brief families so when I was an MP when I was a lawyer
00:41:52
I spent a lot of time brief animals my clients when I was an MP there was ever you know a homicide in TuneIn
00:42:00
I would meet the families asking me the families when I became may I started a practice where
00:42:05
Whenever there was a homicide in London my office would write to the family and say look obviously give my condolences
00:42:11
but give them my details and meet with the families and so after grunfell uh you know into a
00:42:16
lot of funerals a lot of families and and those families stories stay with you and I'm still in contact
00:42:24
with a lot of them but that summer um June 2017 you referenced the London Bridge attacks as well where I think three men in a van mounted the sidewalk then jumped out
00:42:37
with knives and killed I think eight people in total in um borough borough Market
00:42:46
when you see this happening you're at home right 10 p.m at night you're watching the Telly you see this
00:42:52
happening what goes on in your head so just just to reassure people watching so we do a lot of preparation a lot of blood practice a lot of planning on those sorts of things so you see try
00:43:06
and and you're never ready for it but you try to do what you can in advance to understand it because I'm not a police officer I'm not an nmo5 I'm not counter-terror but I'm the
00:43:19
police around commissioner so I need to understand what you're doing so so I can understand your job and so I I've always
00:43:24
tried to understand what you're doing so I can be at help not hindrance and so when it happens there's a lot of
00:43:32
uncertainty in real time what's going on but the good news is our police and other partners are
00:43:39
trained for the phrases a marauding terrorist uh the phrase for it uh there's training for it and and we learn from other countries when this happens so uh the first time this sort of uh Terror
00:43:52
tactic was used that's well known about was in Delhi a number of years ago so our police have learned what's happened
00:43:58
there and so we practice a lot of this stuff in relation to what what the Firearms team will do in
00:44:03
the situation what the police response will do what my role is going to be where I should be and so forth
00:44:09
and and also you've got to give Assurance to londoners you can't play into the terrorist hands what does terrorist want you to do a terrorist wants to terrorize you and have Panic
00:44:21
spreading changing behavior in a way that's perverse and so forth so it's really important the response I have to
00:44:28
a terror attack because I could inadvertently be playing into the hands of the terrorists well there's a motion
00:44:34
come into all of this you're seeing you know Carnage you're seeing death you is there a place for emotion in all of that in real time there really can't be in real time there can't be for and
00:44:45
that sort of stuff there can be when it comes to a foreign sort of thing but but because people are
00:44:52
looking to you to provide leadership and panic doesn't isn't good leadership and so one of the reasons why you know
00:44:58
I've asked for when we've had the practice the preparation the planning is to make sure there isn't panic and there
00:45:03
isn't emotion because you've got to make rational decisions and provide reassurance in a core calm waste you
00:45:09
know you can't go to a cobra meeting and be historical you've got to explain the facts what you've ascertained what you're going to do
00:45:15
what buses are going to be diverted what tube's going to be stopped you know and so forth another important thing in
00:45:21
London in that sort of context Stephen is we can't afford to happen is reprisals right people wrongly thinking
00:45:26
every Muslim is a terrorist we saw in America Post 9 11 you know somebody were in a
00:45:31
turban attacked and killed because people thought wrongly it was involved in terrorism in 911 so this that part of
00:45:38
British law in the community community tensions as well after that incident happened um Donald Trump came out and made some
00:45:45
disparaging comments about about my guess about about you in London um really kind of mocking what you'd said how do you feel about that is it I mean
00:45:57
it's I mean from my point of view it's an incredibly bizarre behavior for a wild leader to be taking such a stance
00:46:03
after it's such a tragedy but how did how did that feel on that day emotionally it was odd let me see what I saw it there's basically an understanding we have there are certain cities and
00:46:13
certain parts of the world are targets of terrorists because of our values because of our way of life and so forth and you so there's a there's a
00:46:20
solidarity we saw happen in Paris uh you know you know we saw it up in 911 right uh and there are other examples around the world in Manchester the awful you know events of the Ariana Grande
00:46:31
concert and so forth and so there's always a sense of solidarity and you'll you'll see world leaders you know Mayors
00:46:37
and others Sending message of solidarity and it's unusual it's exceptional actually
00:46:43
for particularly our closest Ally right special relationship you saw our primary prime minister response to 911 you know
00:46:50
Tony Blair George Bush and you have Donald Trump responding the way he he does and let's
00:46:57
be frank you know if the mayor of London wasn't you know somebody of you know my background my faith and so
00:47:03
forth and he didn't have the views he had about people of my faith and my background he wouldn't respond to the way he did would he has that has that
00:47:10
played a role in how people have treated you in terms of on the other side of the aisle people have political views do you
00:47:16
think some of you know I'm reflecting now on much of what Meghan Markle said about how like the institutional how
00:47:22
claims about institutional racism impacting the way she was treated by the press and by by the institution itself
00:47:27
but but when I think about you being you know probably Britain's most famous Muslim um you are the mayor of London do you believe that there has been instances
00:47:40
and there are just generally a bias because you are a Muslim yourself and how does that rear its head on like
00:47:46
a day-to-day month-to-month basis well looking backwards I mean I'm sure you've read about the uh my first election campaign in 2016 right my faith was used against me by my opponents uh
00:47:58
you know you kind of a must remember links with terrorism so forth and so forth for no other reason but because of
00:48:04
to be frank my faith right um and that's why it's so important to win because had I not won if you're an
00:48:11
Asian or a Muslim or whatever you're thinking hold on a sec it's not possible to be the Maryland because you're afraid that holds you back and that's why
00:48:17
winning was important for a variety of other reasons as well but you know the thing about our city
00:48:24
is not understanding the prejudices against the religion that I practice because a minority of terrorists do bad
00:48:31
things use the name of Islam this city voted for not just an ethic minority or just a religious minority but the
00:48:38
religion he belongs to is Islam it's this thing wonderful about our city not just tolerating difference respect and
00:48:45
embracing and celebrating it as well but I can't escape the fact that you know being a Muslim
00:48:51
when we're living in a climate of islamophobia has challenges as well it's it's not a
00:48:58
secret it's not I'm not diverging any breaches of you know National Security the Christchurch shooter in New Zealand you know referenced me in his in his
00:49:08
diatribe the Finsbury Park terror terror terrorist you know reference me uh in his
00:49:15
terrorist attack in Finsbury uh park outside uh the mosque you know I'm not I'm not giving equivalence to Donald Trump in relation to terrorists but Donald Trump for a period of time was obsessed with
00:49:25
me and so that leads to you go to social media some of the stuff that I get on social media right uh you go to uh some
00:49:33
of the far-right groups some of the stuff I received there some of the you know in Virtual Commons mainstream
00:49:40
journalists who use me as clickbait they know if they use my name it's going to attract traffic to their social media
00:49:47
channels they know that and because you're a Muslim but of course it is right because we know that there's a currency there's a
00:49:53
currency right uh you know and we know for reasons that you know you know aren't fair to Muslims the vast fast
00:49:59
fast majority yeah who live in the west love the West uh Laura Biden and so forth but the
00:50:06
actions of a small minority means we're all labeled we're all demonized and so I was reading the independent and it was
00:50:12
they were talking about the death threats you'd received on social media you'd come out and talked about some of
00:50:19
the comments that people had made to you calling you a um words that I probably can't even
00:50:24
repeat and I won't repeat to be fair um but very derogatory racist uh homosexual at times terminology towards you which oftentimes included death threats
00:50:35
um the independent had written an article showing what those those threats were have you ever felt like your safety
00:50:41
was at risk yeah it's been a few times yeah yeah uh uh and that's one of the reasons why you know and I have pleased protection not because I asked for it for a year I said no and in the end
00:50:53
my wife and my chief of staff said you've got to take it because two reasons because if I'm out with my
00:51:01
family their personal safety is being compromised right uh I can't have that uh if I'm out with my staff working
00:51:07
the person said he's being compromised and I'm not willing to take that risk either and so uh you know there'd be in
00:51:13
specific threats but the problem with police protection is it means you lose your spontaneity so
00:51:18
you know I came here by tube uh I'm not you know the police officers on on the tube with me right you wouldn't know
00:51:24
they were there you know um and so forth but they've got to be with me when I go
00:51:29
to a restaurant when I go to the cinema and I'm walking my dog when I'm getting the tube right and so like it restricts
00:51:36
my ability to just you know have you ever been genuinely worried about your safety a
00:51:41
couple of times yeah there's an occasion where uh yeah there's been a number of occasions I probably I don't want to give them the credit by making them know
00:51:47
that I was scared and worried about my safety because you know they'll think they can do it again but there have been occasions even with police protection
00:51:53
about Proxima Berlin you know but I've asked them to just you know keep a distance because I don't want them to be
00:51:58
next to me like I mean I'm a celebrity or the Prime Minister you know I I like the fact that I'm a normal Joe uh and I
00:52:05
try and be as much as I I can but there have been times yeah of course they have um uh as mere but there have been times
00:52:12
I've been more of a security before I was me you know when you know and you know and that's
00:52:18
you know you know 911 was traumatic for a variety of reasons thousands of people lost their lives it was just awful what
00:52:24
it did though was it gave it gave permission for people to treat all of us you know in a way that I'd not experienced before so when I was growing up
00:52:36
the p word the N word the W word sometimes used and you know my white friends black friends and me knew that was that was like that was we see the Red Mist and they'd be fine
00:52:49
right you couldn't yeah and but it was never about faith and I'm not saying one is better than the other and
00:52:55
stuff right but something happened where um it became about faith uh and the islamophobia stuff uh and there is still a great sense of solidarity in relation to people who still defend me who aren't
00:53:08
Muslims and stuff right what it does is a number of things firstly if you're a mum or dad and
00:53:13
you're you know and you're Muslim and your son was thinking about Korean politics or public life you say you know
00:53:18
what if someone likes that he can't get in that sort of stuff I don't really want you to get involved
00:53:24
in politics or and this happens a lot if you're somebody who is wants to amplify
00:53:31
my social media or be supportive and you do it and then you get this diatribe of hate because you've done
00:53:39
that there's two responses a 9 out of ten people say I had no idea that you received this stuff how can I
00:53:46
help I'm one out of 10 people say you know what this is a bit too much you know I'm not
00:53:51
I'm not gonna actually has it ever affected you personally um sleepless nights in relation to hate abuse I worry about my I want to
00:54:03
make sure my wife and kids are safe for me I'll make sure they're safe um at the moment I've got the you know I'm
00:54:10
I'm lucky I've got a police protection team keeping me safe right um but we you know the City Halls you
00:54:15
know receives threats and you know so this where this ridiculous situation where because of the hatred against me
00:54:23
people are writing letters and emails to City old staff who in the previous 16 years haven't had this we've had enough since 2000 and we would now provide our staff
00:54:34
and this isn't objective the rejected space that's receiving hatred but we've got a duty appear to our staff right our
00:54:40
staff are traumatized upset all the rest of it so we're now going to support our staff in ways never done before so that
00:54:46
keeps that worries me the fact they've impacted my staff reading this stuff the emails uh reading the letters that come in the
00:54:52
image of my staff reading the social media the impacts of my family reading this uh uh stuff I'm not going to allow
00:54:57
anybody to change my behavior I will not cower but also I will not let you know if you're bullying me but I feel it so
00:55:04
even if I was being affected and I'm not I wouldn't tell the guys that I'm being affected because it gives them it gives them Solace it gives them Comfort it
00:55:10
means they've won I'm not going to do that but but in this kind of medium I think there is value in Sharing showing
00:55:16
those sharing that because people don't realize right so it's it's a world that we don't know so we don't care about so we don't as a society do anything about because we don't even know it exists I mean much of what you've said is news to
00:55:27
me the fact that you're telling me your staff need I'm presuming psychological support
00:55:33
because of the amount of abuse you're getting and at the heart of that is your your religion
00:55:38
and you race so often other things will come into it but you just have to read just just when you get a chance you know it's not good for your mental health but when you get a chance you just have a look at some of the
00:55:49
stuff that that people say about me and it's not all Bots by the way but it has infected you because I can tell you I've
00:55:54
had abuse targeted me and it affected me and I don't mind saying that because I think it's just it's just the truth to be fair so has it ever
00:56:01
has there ever been you know anxiety worries no no it's affecting me in the sense that you know I've spoken
00:56:08
to social media companies and others about the responsibility they have about their algorithms about you know employing
00:56:14
staff to take the stuff off you know my staff not me I reported some of this stuff to the police and actually in particularly at some of the people
00:56:19
who've said some of this stuff because the assignment elements of uh I think there are issues here about the ease with which uh social
00:56:27
media allows people with hateful spiteful racist criminal views have those views Amplified where they weren't 20 years ago so 20 years ago 30 years ago so when I was growing up right you
00:56:39
could only bully me if you saw me in a playground or if you saw me down the street you could call me names that way you could maybe write me a letter if you
00:56:44
knew where I lived now you can do it from your bedroom without even being in the same city as
00:56:50
me the same country as me anonymously anonymously as well and some of these algorithms amplify this and and some of
00:56:56
these people have got big followings and they all jump in the bandwagon uh as well and so you know there is a problem
00:57:02
there in relation to how we deal with this stuff but also listen it's happening to you speak to a girl in a secondary school some of the
00:57:10
stuff she now will receive so you know you know black is going to school now in their bedroom on social media right
00:57:16
and so you know this is not just an issue for me I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me but it's an issue for
00:57:22
everybody for everyone covid speaking of mental health I heard you said that during the covered period you you did
00:57:28
suffer a little bit with your own mental health can you give me some detail on what you mean by that yeah look before we came I know we're talking about you
00:57:34
know return to the office and stuff and I'm somebody who by the way you don't realize this at the time
00:57:40
so I'm somebody who I now realize thrives on working with people being around people uh on company right and I
00:57:48
didn't really appreciate that until the pandemic uh and I'm lucky I've got a decent sized
00:57:53
home my my daughters came up from University my wife we got on really well we do you
00:58:00
know and so we can give each other space and stuff and so I've got a garden we've got a dog but I realized
00:58:08
there was a there wasn't a light bulb moment but I but on hindsight I realized I stopped shaving you know I you know I
00:58:20
burnt jogging Bobs all day uh I I wasn't as communicative um of course I'd shave if I was doing you know morning breakfast shows or whatever uh I'll I didn't have my mojo I'd like
00:58:34
to think that I can Inspire my team I I you know you know you know it's like when you you manage people right
00:58:40
I didn't I just didn't I just I I was saying not quite right and I couldn't I didn't know that in real time I didn't you know but they were saying and and on
00:58:54
hindsight what I realized was that there were things I did in my normal life that gave me mental Fitness and it was not a physical fitness mental Fitness right
00:59:05
and because I wasn't doing those I was suffering mental ill health now I fortunately I needed to be medicalized but it meant I had to think about the things I want to do
00:59:16
to keep mental my mental health well and I struggled and on hindsight there was a period of time where I I wasn't top of my game uh because I
00:59:28
now am and because you know after a while I realized this and was taking steps to address that and I realized I can't
00:59:35
work from home in perpetuity I I need to be around people I need that buzz whether it's the banter on the tube whether it's meeting my staff whether it's that conversation before I go into the office the team meeting
00:59:47
I didn't realize that's what helps me keep my mental health but also makes me you know be effective and it's other things you know sport I didn't realize how important sport is to me I didn't
00:59:59
realize not playing tennis not going for a run not playing football I didn't realize
01:00:05
that because I thought I did have to keep I thought I did that to keep physically fit not realizing actually
01:00:10
it's an internal part in my mental well-being when you when you think about your your job as mayor over the last you
01:00:17
know since you were elected mayor where where do you think you've let yourself down
01:00:23
[Music] well that's a good question um I think I think you alluded to this early on but the seven days a week stuff when you speak to most experts and I
01:00:34
speak lots of privilege you know speaking to you speak lots of people who they said that they say that's really
01:00:39
important to get the balance right in relation to being fresh for the time we've got to be on my response is I'm on quite a lot uh
01:00:48
so I've got to use a time when I'm off to make sure I recharge on batteries and so I think that pacing myself you
01:00:54
know I've tried to run a marathon as a Sprint what about policies things you would have liked to have gotten done but
01:01:00
you've not been able to get done a lot of people have leveled the you know things like housing and will we be carbon neutral by 2030
01:01:07
um what are the things you look at and go do you know I failed there yeah well I'm not gonna answer that question honestly when I'm running for election in 467 days time right because the
01:01:14
answer is going to use against me but let me tell you something we've got we've done lots of right as well as to suffered a vlog I think the biggest thing is that like a real thing where
01:01:20
you can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you actually I think the thing that I've been at least effective about and I've said this
01:01:25
before is is uh by that we've not managed to play the government the importance of developing more powerful
01:01:31
resources to London the governments my dad used to say that you know you should judge somebody about the friends you keep right I've got a different I've got a different saying which is Judge
01:01:43
Somebody by their enemies you know and the government don't like me right and so the politics is the main
01:01:49
reason and so the government and I think I've I've sometimes not helped because of my pugilistic nature
01:01:59
and I I I I worry have London has been let down because the government see me as an enemy not giving London the support they would give if somebody else was the mayor and
01:02:10
so I've tempered you know since I won re-election I've tempered some of that because I realized I can't allow my my
01:02:16
natural adversarial nature my dislike of the government to get in the way of doing business with the government so
01:02:21
that's that's the honest answer but by the way I meant what I said about this when you said tongue-in-cheek well can
01:02:26
you not be honest yeah because I'm still in the game right so when you ask a next politician questions like that they'll give you a a
01:02:34
candid answer but you can't exactly look it's not asking ask us Tyson what's the
01:02:40
weakness in your game what what you know you you wouldn't do that I'm not sometimes in Fury uh but I'm still on
01:02:45
top of my game it's really interesting I I partly think it's an interesting game politics and and all this stuff but a
01:02:51
game it's not a game you just said you're still in the games I'm using your word but it's an interesting game to me because I don't feel like politicians
01:02:57
can ever be truly themselves they can't truly speak their mind and I am part I wonder if that's actually acting against them I think there's almost this political kind of
01:03:09
um this political I don't know philosophy or whatever where you kind of have to be a little bit cagey you kind
01:03:14
of have to never really answer a question you kind of have to to get by I said no so to his credit Trump the thing
01:03:20
he did and I hate to say Trump did anything well but the thing he did you know what you're getting with this guy whether it's good bad driven by
01:03:27
narcissism whatever you have this sense that he's telling you what he thinks I've got at least 17
01:03:32
responses to them let me give you a couple so one is which is interesting is I think Trump's one of Trump's tweets that
01:03:39
he said against me was hashtag Stone Cold loser describing me right well he lost his re-election I didn't true right so he's a one-time president
01:03:52
right Barack Obama isn't even George W bush isn't do you think about it uh he's gonna try come back uh he's got
01:03:59
a good chance I think DeSantis will probably get the Republican nomination I'm coming back honestly
01:04:05
uh well I wanted to come back and be beaten so yeah so I think I think politics uh you know the reason why I
01:04:12
said about you know I'm still in the game is because it's a good metaphor because I I you know I learned a lot from Sports I love sports and stuff and
01:04:17
a lot of leadership skills I get from sports but let me tell you why why you're both right and wrong in relation to your observation which I think is I
01:04:24
think is is right and it's wrong so when you're an MP I think you're right I think most MPS have got to be inauthentic on Ty because in Parliament
01:04:36
a thing called Collective responsibility and you've got to stay in your lane for a start so if you're a transport
01:04:42
minister you can really enter that transport because if I review about health it'll
01:04:47
it'll annoy the health secretary or if I've got a view about foreign policy or health effect it'll upset the
01:04:52
foreign secretary right orb the budget and so you've got to stay in your lane which is which is a
01:04:57
frustration because you've got to stand by the policies they've got in their other areas right it's going to be inauthentic
01:05:03
um but also this thing called collect responsibility so inside the cabinet what happens is
01:05:08
if there's a good strong prime minister there'll be an argument and discussion inside cabinet about policy
01:05:14
you can have a different view you can be honest then once you reach a view when you leave the cabinet all of you
01:05:20
have on a defend that view and be Advocate with you and that's why you're spot on so and it reminds me being a
01:05:26
lawyer I that I've got to say hand on heart there were cases I had where I didn't agree with the brief or like it
01:05:32
but I had to argue the case I was the lawyer right and the same goes we were MP the difference when you're the mayor
01:05:38
or the president you can be yourself so what's Labor getting wrong um I think lots of things right to be fair come on there's no I mean I think I think you know but when I think about
01:05:50
the last two three years since Kia became leader we've got a lot of things right I think the frustration voters have which I think is not fair is we're
01:05:58
not putting enough flesh in the detail right and there's a reason for that I explained so so the answer your question direct answer is we're not giving enough
01:06:04
retail policy enough reasons to vote late labor yes time for change is effective but but
01:06:11
people would say what lab is getting wrong is not giving details of policy my response is hold on a sec
01:06:18
you've got a peek at the right time the general election might not be until 20 months away so if Rachel Reeves had a
01:06:24
chance and I came up with a policy on on the budget well the economy in 20 minutes time is
01:06:30
going to be very different from the economy now how can she honestly be asked to give a tax and spend policy now well Kirsten announces a great policy
01:06:36
the windfall levy on energy companies sunak Nixa dilutes it a bit so soon it gets the credit or not care your best policies have been stunned so this is and so the point is you've got to peek at the right time and the power ration
01:06:48
has got to come in the weeks before that's interesting Direction because the question question I asked is what's Labor getting wrong
01:06:54
and you didn't answer that you didn't I didn't explain it's just the reasons that's the public perception of the
01:06:59
Labor's getting wrong yeah I'm saying what do you think Labor's getting wrong yeah but but Steve that's my point listen if you say nothing that's fine no
01:07:05
no no listen but my point is that that there's two points of that one is uh I say this with respect and love you
01:07:12
know advice I give to care giving private not in public right that's the first thing and secondly
01:07:18
there's a general election in 20 months time and you know my point about you know we have a you know I'm still in the game is
01:07:25
is you know I want to make sure that privately the views I've got about whatever's getting wrong I sorted out before the general election rather than telegraphing to the opposition things
01:07:36
were getting wrong so they can you know using the boxing metaphor you try and not curious armor out and that's but
01:07:42
that's kind of similar to what you were saying about the and MPS having to kind of
01:07:47
stay stay in the lane because they can't be critical of anything else that's happening around them I get it it's a party I guess that's how the system
01:07:53
works but as a as a muggle he doesn't really isn't that interested well I'm interested in politics but I'm not
01:07:58
heavily engaged but here's your handsome though Stephen and it's a good conundrum to have
01:08:04
which is the next general election probably one of two people named prime minister right sunak or cursed armor unless sunac
01:08:13
is goes the way of listro and Boris Johnson right and so politics isn't perfection it's
01:08:19
relativism and so you've got to choose between one of these two there's no there's nobody else it's not Kirsten or perfection
01:08:26
it's the appearance of perfection right because as you said she's perfect though In Our Lifetime but that's what I'm
01:08:32
saying it's the appearance of it in the sense that like you can't criticize labor
01:08:37
so I can't believe me I can look publicly I mean so publicly in the last in the last two weeks I criticized labor
01:08:43
right on brexit I Believe brexit's been an unmitigated disaster right I believe uh that uh we've got to be much closer to you and that includes by the way yes
01:08:55
outside the EU now we are outside the U but being members of the single market and Customs Union that is not Labor's
01:09:01
policy right how does labor get back in power when I was younger listen again if I'm wrong about any of this political
01:09:07
stuff please like with my dates and stuff please forgive me but I'm just saying um when I was younger laborer in
01:09:12
power and then since pretty much over the last 10 years labor labor haven't been back in power what's Labor getting
01:09:18
wrong why isn't resonating with the the voters and how does labor go about fixing that so the last
01:09:24
hundred years I mean we've only been in power for a third of that to give you an idea of you know uh you know we're not
01:09:30
the man united of politics you know uh and so uh a number of things we want to do to win back power first we've got to change ourselves so we've got a the
01:09:41
first part of it is reorganizing labor ourselves so internal stuff the internal wiring is wrong right
01:09:48
what's wrong with it so so this idea that anybody is successful you know we've got to bash
01:09:54
this idea that we you know that the way we fundraise for our party the way we um employ staff and Fire Staff this sense of you know uh nepotism and stuff there's lots of things we've got wrong
01:10:04
you know um in the last few years you know we sort ourselves that including organization employ the right people get rid of the wrong people uh have a you know have proper social media campaign
01:10:17
that sort of stuff proper campaigning techniques or so the internal stuff you've got to do the stuff you don't see how we select candidates right all that
01:10:23
sort of stuff right the second part of it is Be an Effective opposition expose the Tories and call
01:10:29
them out when they get things wrong we can't rely up on the mainstream media you know eight percent of the major media is supportive of the conservative
01:10:35
party right it's just a fact so we've got to Be an Effective opposition in calling them out and hold
01:10:41
them to account right including stuff um that would otherwise not be seen so call them our relation to policies on
01:10:46
the economy uh you know call them on the policy relation to Health Service call them arrested policy of Education
01:10:52
um and the third part which is the crucial part is to show the country we've got policies to Be an Effective
01:10:59
Government and that's that's my point about the perception is we've not done the third part yet and my answer is holding this door 20 months to go my
01:11:06
point is this I don't want to win election because it's time for change by itself I
01:11:13
want you to be inspired and Infused to vote labor because of our policy offer and that's your challenge back to me
01:11:19
saying what's your opponent why vote labor right that's interesting I've been doing a lot of reading over the last couple of weeks because I'm writing my
01:11:24
new book and I've spent you know a good 30 days in total probably in the jungle reading about psychology and why people
01:11:30
um what makes people behave and act and whatever and the the uh the clear answer from all of that research that I've done
01:11:37
and all the studies I went through going back almost 100 years was that people responded emotionally instead of to
01:11:43
logic and so when you say that you need to lead with better policies and stuff it kind of goes it stands in the face of
01:11:50
all of this like psychological research I've been reading that says in fact people are illogical emotional beings
01:11:55
that are driven by their fears and desires and when I think about politics honestly right and I'm just being
01:12:01
completely honest I I think a lot of it is actually just a very instinctive feeling about the person
01:12:09
you know and this is why I go back to the point about authenticity and why I really struggle with politicians sometimes is
01:12:15
they just don't feel hit like humans they feel like these like robots that can't say anything or can't speak their
01:12:20
mind and I just honestly I get that my my view with labor is if they manage to get someone in to lead the party who
01:12:27
felt like my mate that I could I kind of related to and tell me the good and the bad and was just a bit of a normal
01:12:32
person not a suit not super rich not whatever didn't go to eating or whatever it is talking about both sides here I
01:12:38
actually think they'd win I think from many people and Boris Johnson did win right let's look if the test was and the test was who do I wanna have a
01:12:44
cappuccino with yeah or who do I want to figure out the government finances get us through the
01:12:50
pandemic uh mend our relationship with Europe there's a different answer be and I you're right it's an emotion and so
01:12:56
there's a great phrase right you campaign in poetry and you government prose because exactly it's the emotion
01:13:01
right yeah you know the emotion is really important but my point is is we see where it's got our country where has emotion got our country and so I think actually one of the failures of
01:13:13
politicians and I I also plead guilty is we've lost the Arts to be good teachers right political education is lacking in our country and so I think a good politician should use his or her
01:13:25
role in an unpatronizing way to educate people you know you had to come you ask me really good questions about crime
01:13:32
right now the easy thing to say you know just lock them up let's arrest ourselves out of this right that place your emotion because you want the people who
01:13:38
burgled your home to be arrested put in prison and the keys run away right probably I'm just afraid right but actually it's my job to in an unpassionate way try and educate you
01:13:50
without excusing criminality but saying it's a bit more complex than that right yeah but you understand though I sat here I get it I sat here with a
01:13:57
neuroscientist called tally Charlotte and she has basically written a book about this about how the brain um has a
01:14:04
default towards listening to emotion she actually referenced Trump she said in that debate with the with the doctor I think it was in the 2008 elections or
01:14:11
2012 elections when asked about the autism vaccines the the Doctor Who Um Trump was up against in the debate reference facts stats and
01:14:23
figures trump it then comes to Trump and he tells a story about one of his mates
01:14:29
with a big needle you know he uses all of this descriptive emotional storytelling language and tally even
01:14:35
though she knows the science around vaccines she said she was a little bit put off giving her
01:14:40
daughter the autism vaccine after hearing Trump even though she knew it was nonsense and for me that just goes to show the power
01:14:47
of like emotion and storytelling versus the feeble influence that status I saw in the brexit campaign right so what happened exactly is is Nigel farage and his lot put up this poster yeah but NHS
01:14:59
and about it the poster was a queue of syrians given the impression that they're going
01:15:05
to flood our country because of the turkey allegedly joining the European Union and emotionally that played to
01:15:11
people's concerns around immigration I mean brexit was a proxy of immigration right and so it was an emotional stuff
01:15:16
because rationally it doesn't make sense if you work for Nissan in Sunderland to be voting to leave the EU because you know your your
01:15:23
boss is going to be affected by it right because it's and so I don't disagree with what you're saying your analysis I
01:15:29
get it it's emotion rather than rational my point is yes that's true in relation to human
01:15:35
behavior but actually at the same time we've got to be explained to people that actually it is an X Factor it's about who's the best person to run
01:15:46
our country and sometimes that person you know does is not going to be sexy is not going to be charismatic some
01:15:52
sometimes he will be another a course of an election and a campaign he can't be personality comes out because you're
01:15:58
right personality does matter to an extent but actually you know I want our leaders to know how to you know how you
01:16:06
know how balance she works understand what makes a business tick understands the importance of Entrepreneurship job
01:16:12
creation Public Service stuff I want that too it's just it just seems like deep innate in human psychology is this
01:16:17
desire to be motivated most by our fears our desires and and our emotions versus logic and sense and maybe this is a
01:16:23
little bit of a skewed perspective I have because I've spent the last 30 days reading about this psychology and why people are influenced but
01:16:30
um but the thing is to listen I wanted to ask on the positive side what are you what are you most proud of
01:16:37
um following your tenure so far as London mayor what are the things that you go do you know what we really had an impact here for the development of
01:16:43
londoners air qualities that the obvious example think of God I walk when I was walking in from the tube station I saw
01:16:48
the ultra Mission Street uh that Hackney had done really really uh well so we've managed to so you don't see this stuff
01:16:54
um none of us sees this stuff but if we were grown up in London in the 50s you'd see the smoke
01:17:00
right because the power stations you could see it usually couldn't walk because that's more than more than a minute and a half it was it was a killer
01:17:05
as well so we can't see the nitrogen Dark Side the nitrogen oxide the particular matter certainly the carbon
01:17:11
emissions but at least more than four thousand premature deaths a year at least to children having stunted lungs
01:17:16
at least to adults with a whole host of health issues me included asthma premature heart disease deaths cancer
01:17:23
and so forth we've managed to in two years reduce the toxic care in the centralized City by half and we're
01:17:29
improving it more across our City's air quality is obviously a big one Council housing you mentioned uh housing we last
01:17:36
year Well actually the last few years we have completed more homes in London because of our policies than any year
01:17:43
since the 1930s more Council homes than any Asians 1970s more generally affordable homes than any year since records began not enough we've got to do much more to increase Supply to meet uh
01:17:54
demand slightly shy of your goal uh no my God is much more so my target is 50 000 and but we're not going to get there and I've said to the government we need more support and it's actually There's an opportunity if there's a
01:18:06
recession coming because of the way the counter Central nature of the property Market we can have more home buildings
01:18:11
actually that creates jobs and people paying taxes and so forth look what we've done in public transport my first
01:18:16
five years we froze fares the night tube are up and running uh you know we've got buses going all across London now more
01:18:22
buses too many more kilometers of buses next year the Elizabeth line uh the northern line extension parking
01:18:28
Riverside extension look at what we talked about relationship mentors a hundred thousand young people have a mentor made progress in reducing uh
01:18:35
crime invested in young people and if you're elected again what's your number one Focus for London it's all about a future where you know
01:18:46
we can deal with the the four issues which are really important fairer City so those who you know uh
01:18:54
need a helping out get the helping hand a safer City I think I think the perception is our city isn't safe on
01:19:00
address the reality and the perception uh Garena City we've got to reduce carbon emissions I was the first Global
01:19:07
City to declare a client emergency I've changed the next genotype in 2050 when I won't be around as the mayor 2030 right
01:19:13
will we get there and uh uh yeah but only a third of the powers I've got the other two thirds we need government
01:19:18
support retrofitting building sites uh so forth the transport we've got we're making progress there but you think
01:19:24
we're gonna uh yeah and if there's a change of government in two years time I hope they will be with care as prime minister we definitely will get there
01:19:29
and the more prosperous city as well I think I think our competitors are also our collaborators the parises the
01:19:35
Singapore's the Hong Kongs the New Yorks but there are competitors as well good more prosperous you're 52 now right yeah if you were to
01:19:42
um God forbid if you were to If This Were to be your last day what regrets would you have about the life you've chosen to live and how you've lived it
01:19:57
crikey um maybe not work for seven days a week maybe more time with with my family um
01:20:07
I don't think I've seen enough of the world you know I've only ever lived in two tonight it's been three years in North London one year in godalming at Law
01:20:13
School uh when I was in Guildford uh I mean I've seen the world as a tourist right but not not I'm not really
01:20:19
experienced it you mentioned the long time you spent in the jungle and stuff and I've not I've not done that maybe I'm I missed that
01:20:25
um got a picture here for you that's my dad he passed away was it two thousand September the 4th 2003. um I remember vividly it was
01:20:38
it was the one thing in my life that's that's really knocked me sideways um and I still grieve my dad you know
01:20:50
um and I've never got help even though I was struggling the time because I think I think
01:20:58
you should grieve for people you love it should affect your mental illness it should uh debilitate you
01:21:07
um he was this amazing man you know this was a guy who um no ways of Graces watch the news he'd read the papers he
01:21:19
would spend time with the kids he would you know he would never say no to overtime in the garage never say what's on the garage
01:21:26
thoroughly decent man he when he retired he would spend time in the mosque he was the mazim the moisin is the guy that
01:21:33
doesn't hold a prayer did you did you did you get to did you speak to him properly no no that's that's a regret
01:21:39
that we didn't get the quality you know Anisa was my eldest daughter was five when it four when he passed away
01:21:46
Mara was two that didn't get the name really I didn't have the he would have loved me being a man he would have loved you know my support in a Southern
01:21:54
Cathedral with the swearing ceremony how old were you when he passed away I was 33 and what I think about it I was too
01:22:00
young when he passed and you know I didn't I was depressed at the time I was depressed you know I saw this boy that
01:22:06
that this I wasn't I wasn't functioning I threw myself I threw myself into work um shortly after I ran to be the labor candidate actually because that's how I got through this uh time but I think
01:22:20
about my youngest brother was only 25 when he passed and and I was and and we've now I think since we've had kids
01:22:27
that's that's made us much more touchy feeling talking about feelings and stuff we hug and we say I love you and stuff and we are there words unsaid to him
01:22:34
yeah without a doubt what are those words um yeah they're between it they're between him and me to be honest but um
01:22:54
we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest um not knowing who they're leaving it
01:23:00
for you will know who this person is but I can't tell you um the question they've left is everyone gets really nervous when I get to this question I don't know why it's weird nobody cares about my questions but then
01:23:10
when this one comes it takes people forever to answer if you could give one piece of advice to yourself at the start
01:23:17
of your life what would it have been that's a good one um enjoy the experience why that because often I don't know if you get to do it you're
01:23:38
so busy you don't get to enjoy it uh when you speak to people who have we talked with talked teasingly about being an exposition they they follow the memory
01:23:51
but they didn't enjoy the experience and I remember saying I remember famous footballer Gary Neville been interviewed said he didn't really enjoy it and I think I found it odd you know you you're
01:24:05
not enjoying the experience uh and so I enjoy the experience you know and actually
01:24:11
you know when you're ambitious you're always trying to do the next thing right and it's and I think ambition is
01:24:17
important is important to you know to have you know a grasp greater than your reach
01:24:23
but in the meantime enjoy the experience have you enjoyed the experience loved it
01:24:28
I loved it but you know about that but but question am I saving it with my friends and family enough have I just
01:24:34
been too busy and too blinkered in relation to in relation to sharing the enjoyment
01:24:39
experience um and I tried I tried doing that more as I try and I try and include silent the girls more in the stuff that
01:24:45
I do to make sure they enjoy the experience and my friends and and you know my my family and so forth
01:24:51
thank you thank you for your time um and thank you for being here I am I'm very as I said I'm very compelled by by politicians and the world of politics because it's it's not a world that I
01:25:03
know necessarily well but it's world world that I observe with great Intrigue and and wonder um I'd say dissatisfaction largely the
01:25:12
cylinder just because it just seems to be so far away from the like what I love about I don't know humans these
01:25:19
politicians you admire either overseas or here um I loved Barack Obama I thought he was Great America yeah I know yeah exactly I
01:25:27
think I think because he he felt incredibly human I remember watching him cry on after Sandy Hook and I he just
01:25:34
felt like a good man with a good family and good morals and I kind of felt like he had he'd uh he was he was authentic
01:25:42
um that's a good one yeah I think he's probably he's my number one um the problem is you set your bar so
01:25:47
high I know none of us are Barack Obama yeah I know but I think everyone has the potential to be to to anything
01:25:54
Obama's an easy one who else oh gosh I like Bernie Sanders as well another guy that I just I I connect with and I think he's very authentically driven
01:26:07
um to make the world a better place um and I see that in your story as well I see you know when you hear your your upbringing and you hear you know what
01:26:14
your parents went through and your grandparents went through and that the plight of your um those that came before you you see that you can see a clear reason why
01:26:20
sometimes I struggle with that sometimes I struggle to understand why people are going into politics I think it's because of status or because they want to be
01:26:26
famous or they want power and now um but but I don't see that in you I don't see you know you had a very well paid job before you chose to to embark on this career path and your origin story
01:26:38
is riddled with all the motivation one would need to pursue such a path so so thank you thank you for coming here
01:26:44
today um I wish you the very very best on your re-election um I I applaud you on the fact that
01:26:49
knife crime has gone down since you became um mayor of London and I would hope that by the time you leave office the city
01:26:57
feels a lot safer than it currently does for me I really do hope we hit our um carbon emissions targets by 2030 we're
01:27:03
able to build more housing and I hope London holds its status in the world as a place that people want to come live
01:27:09
and stay long long beyond their own sort of personal successes So yeah thank you so much
01:27:15
at the start it's very uncomfortable for me to hear that but it's important you hear that and this is one of the things
01:27:20
I've tried to do is is rather than well it's very easy and you're very generous in your comments about me and my faith and my my background to be the only person in my position who
01:27:33
looks like me I get this there's this you know there's only one of me right what's fun and and the same goes for you
01:27:38
but what you do which is which I've tried to do as well in different ways is put down letters for others right
01:27:44
because there shouldn't just be one guy like you there should be many others like you and the same goes in politics as well and I meant what I said because
01:27:50
the interesting about you and the same applies to these useless you you ever watch what Idris Elba does or
01:27:56
resolvement all these other guys their work ethic and what worries me is somehow somebody's told young people you can get rich quick there's a shortcut to being
01:28:07
the mayor or running the law firm or being a successful entrepreneur or being a pop star you ever listened to what Ed Sheeran did before they became successful or Adele
01:28:19
or stormzy that work ethic and I've met what I said about you because listen obviously there aren't many people in
01:28:24
your oppositions who look like you has to be frank who dress like you who talk like you who've got your backstory now
01:28:30
you've never asked to be a role model right you will never meet people who look up to you but it's a fact right and so I'm
01:28:38
not gonna say I'm the mayor right and my job is to you know do this thing what I call the Learning promise work hard I'll give you the help in hand
01:28:44
you can be anything and I and I love the way you do it with with ease and make people feel if I can do it you can do it
01:28:51
and that's that's not because you don't say it like it's easy I did it but if I can do you can do it but you've
01:28:57
got to work hard yeah and I'm really happy I'm really happy that we have a London mayor that looks like you you
01:29:02
know your presence alone is London mayor is a really Positive Single signal to lots of young
01:29:08
um ethnically diverse kids that are hoping to set foot in politics and it's a real shame that you've been treated in
01:29:13
terms of the death threats and the online abuse and such of all the way but unfortunately that seems to be the nature of nature of the world and social
01:29:20
media hopefully we can change that thanks a lot hahaha [Music] [Music] [Music]