00:00:00
I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back to a vicious dialogue and say, "And by the way, I
00:00:05
came back on. I stood up for my principles. I don't want to work for this company anymore. This is my last show."
00:00:17
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser
00:00:23
and I'm Scott Galloway. How you doing, Scott? I'm feeling okay. I slept a lot yesterday. I had a nice weekend. I get a
00:00:30
little bit lonely when I'm traveling for a while, so I'm a little bit lonely. Um Oh. Uh but yeah, I'm fine without the dogs,
00:00:37
without the kids, you know. Yeah. When do you go back? When do you get back? Uh I go Well, I'm in New York now. I go
00:00:44
to Aspen for this uh an event. I'm not even sure you're supposed to talk about it. It's one of these events where we redraw the maps of the world in rooms and Oh, right. one of those
00:00:55
climate change and you know people pretend to care about the world as they wash out founders of AI to get their
00:01:01
seven seventh billion. Um but I'm very excited. Are you getting invited to those things?
00:01:06
I never get in those rooms. I never uh yeah I uh I am all of a sudden I I was never one. There's an Arya Emanuel one. There's a there one from all those people have their own I'm going to one
00:01:20
of those one of I figured Yeah. Karen never you know the air manual is like you should
00:01:26
come to this. I'm like you never invite me and he's like you should come to this it's such it's really you you you just take notes for me okay just tell me
00:01:32
about it when it happens. Yeah it's um I'm I usually I usually don't go anywhere I'm not being paid a
00:01:38
lot of money or that doesn't involve alcohol and and people much there's a lot of alcohol there. Trust me there'll be
00:01:44
Yeah. I don't want to get I don't want to get [ __ ] up with these guys. I know. But you find things find Be a spy. Be like a spy. Be like Madari.
00:01:52
Yeah. Such that I'm never invited back again. So just uh just misery loves company or to enter into this club. I've
00:01:59
been uninvited or disinvited from some very important conferences. Uh the JP Morgan Alternative Investment Summit in
00:02:06
Miami, which is like the it literally is a Super Bowl. Like half the world's GDP is there. And I was invited two years in
00:02:13
a row. And the last year I was there, they always invited me to give predictions and then I sit down and interview somebody. And I sat down and
00:02:20
interviewed this this young woman who's an influencer. And just as we were about then, I said, "But be careful." The
00:02:27
person I interviewed last year was Adam Newman. Oh god. And supposedly that really upset the
00:02:34
people at JP Morgan because I guess they were one of investment banks planning to take him public or something.
00:02:40
In a cuddle puddle with him. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, didn't get invited back then. Haven't been invited back since.
00:02:45
Yeah. And also, I don't know if I was disinvited, but I I got to go to Davos when I was in my
00:02:52
early 30s, three years in a row. And then they I haven't been invited back since. So,
00:02:57
yeah, I never got invited to Davos, just so you know. Well, I've like sent all kinds of hints and messages like, I'd love to come
00:03:03
back, da da da. It was so great. No invite. No invite. I peaked. When did you peak?
00:03:09
I peaked at like 34. Have you determined No, I'm peing my I'm continuing to peak.
00:03:14
It just the fact that I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. I feel like I'm peing even more so. Yeah.
00:03:20
Yeah. I do. I feel like it doesn't matter. One thing I learned along the journey was I
00:03:25
don't care if I don't get invited. It doesn't make it better or worse. You don't get better interviews. You don't Sometimes you don't get people. That's
00:03:31
for sure. I think about this a lot. This sort of accessy kind of thing. I don't think I've suffered for not getting
00:03:37
certain interviews anymore. I think I've done and the other day I thought I'm done with that person. I don't ever want
00:03:42
to talk to them again. like I was like I don't care if I talk to them if I do if I don't. So I don't know I I have more
00:03:49
of a a whatever I'll do. I actually find I find these events are usually really well done. Yeah. And also I think it's really important that people like that get together and
00:04:01
meet other people and expand the horizon. I think those events actually play a really a really important role.
00:04:08
So you know what I peaked? I I peaked when I was nine. When I was nine, I was an all s San Franando Valley
00:04:15
pitcher. I was getting I was I was getting every day me and Debbie Brewbaker were sent from the fourth grade to the sixth grade to do math and English. Oh wow. Jeez.
00:04:25
Uh I was the fastest kid in the fourth grade at Emolita High School and I was getting like
00:04:32
straight A's and then my parents got divorced, we moved homes and I began a slow descent that's lasted about 50
00:04:39
years. Yeah. Also, I was featured in the San Franando Valley newspaper. Can I just say I think that's how people look at you and say he's peaked at nine.
00:04:46
That's how No, that's what the people came up to me. That's true. You are yet to peak. You have yet to peak. I have to tell you.
00:04:51
And I don't say that just cuz I'm an arrogant person. Uh it's because I really believe it. I like I feel like I
00:04:56
have lots and and also I feel a little bit like I'm going to do something. I don't feel like I'm at risk in a way. Um
00:05:05
I don't know. I just feel like I'll do the next thing. I'll do the next thing. I feel good about that. Including doing
00:05:10
stuff with you. I like doing stuff. Everything I do, I love doing. That's all I have to say. And let me just say I Scott did me a favor. I'm interviewing
00:05:17
the parents of the chat GPT story about the kid who committed suicide and and Scott did an amaz I I someone I was going to do it couldn't do it at the last minute. And I got Scott too and he
00:05:28
gave he did a great I really appreciate it. Was incredibly thoughtful question. It was very
00:05:33
uh it's my pleasure. But the key there in the story of my life was the person I wanted couldn't make it. So we invited
00:05:40
Scott. No, it was a person who made sense for that particular thing. But I was I I I
00:05:45
didn't want to bother you is what I really wasn't that I would invite you for every question. Me sitting alone eating Chipotle in my
00:05:51
loft in Soho. Yeah, I'm so busy. Chipotle. You have so much good food around there. You like Chipotle? Yeah, Chipotle
00:05:57
gives you comfort. If it's not Jack's wife Freda or Chipotle, I'm not interested. You also like the place that has the tuna tuna.
00:06:05
Tunicado. Oh, Joe and the Juice. Joe and the Juice. You have God, can I be more like
00:06:11
I don't know what the term is? I do know a lot about you. It's interesting. You do. We're very close. Anyway, he was very thoughtful what you
00:06:18
did. I really appreciate it. Um, anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including Jimmy Kimmel's return. He's
00:06:24
back, H1B visa chaos, and more details about a potential Tik Tok deal. Lots of business today, Scott. But first, let's talk about the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service. 5 hours, more than a 100,000
00:06:37
mourners and top administration officials and Elon Musk. It was equal parts memorial, religious revival and
00:06:43
political rally, hailing Kirk as a martyr and a warrior. Uh let's listen to two standout moments. First, from
00:06:48
Charlie Kirk's widow, uh who emphasized that her husband wanted to help young men. She I thought was excellent, I have
00:06:54
to say. On the cross, our savior said, "Father, forgive them for they not know what they do."
00:07:08
[Music] That man, that young man, I forgive him. [Applause] And then this one from Donald Trump. He did not hate his opponents. He wanted
00:07:32
the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica.
00:07:44
Oh my god. Did you listen to Steven Miller's speech? Crazy. I mean, I thought he was going to start
00:07:50
singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me. It was so it was so reminiscent of speeches in 30s Germany. And just to be clear for those of you who will accuse
00:08:03
me of comparing um Steven Miller to a fascist. Yeah, I am. Yeah, me too. And if he wants to stop being compared to fascists, stop acting like a fascist.
00:08:14
Yeah, it was a that was even I thought Trump's speech was terrible, but uh that was really disturbing. Um
00:08:20
it was just so over the top just like Yes. Right. I was thinking, don't speak at my funeral. Don't speak at my
00:08:25
funeral. Yeah. And and there's this theme of them and you have awakened a war and they
00:08:33
It's like who is they exactly? You talking about you? Is it? Is it white males from Mormon families who are gun owners? Like who
00:08:45
who is they? Is it people who have relationships or or supposedly have relationships with trans people like who I don't you know that's the thing about
00:08:57
extremism is you you you try to find an enemy such that you feel better about yourself but it's so
00:09:03
and the thing about I just find this also disappointing which what she said was very moving and you can sort of feel her grief and and you would think that in
00:09:15
some political ical leaders have tried to do this. But what if one side is successful? 98% of the capital effort right now is going towards trying to cherrypick evidence. The left is guilty
00:09:28
of this, but much less than the right is guilty of this. Trying to cherrypick evidence that will convince a bunch of
00:09:34
people that it was the other's fault. And the question is, assume you win and you convince people that it was either the radical right or the radical left's fault. All that does is get more
00:09:46
violence. That's not going to do anything. No. And none of these people again want to
00:09:51
talk about the real culprits here. So I actually thought the service I think it's nice when a bunch of people get together to mourn something and have sort of a collective healing. I think that's a good thing. It's not,
00:10:04
you know, I don't the people on stage and and their tone was not one of forgiveness and honoring his life. It
00:10:10
felt more like a No, it was an opportunity. Well, I I wrote a post on Friday in my
00:10:16
my newsletter called violence entrepreneurship and they see an opportunity to leverage violence to try
00:10:22
and advance their own political gains as opposed to saying anyway I Yeah. No, I remember you said violence entrepreneurship and then Spencer Cox said the same thing, conflict entrepreneurship. Yeah.
00:10:34
Um it creates that kind I think you're more to the point. Violence is actually the point if you listen to Steven
00:10:40
Miller. The reason look it was a spectacle. It was meant to be a spectacle. It was meant to be a
00:10:45
political opportunity for a lot of people. And you know that evidence that for example, Turning Point USA
00:10:50
volunteers staffed voter registration booths at the stadium event. They were selling merch. Uh it was a culture
00:10:55
event. It was a political event. Um and everything else. And look, the fact that
00:11:00
Erica Kirk stands out as one, the difficulty level of doing that is high, right? Because this is a violent death
00:11:07
of her husband with whom she had uh two children. she uh you know and I thought she managed to do the best she can given the spectacle of the whole thing which
00:11:17
was a lot right and it's fine if you want to do that the martyr stuff is okay whatever you know the the overt the the excessive Christianity was was something
00:11:29
was something but they are very Christian and I'm glad they did it in Arizona which is where he's from um and
00:11:35
again if people want to mourn and they they did it but Donald Trump treated it like a political ical rally. He wandered
00:11:41
around talking not just that he hates people and his opponents and that's also insulting to char it never was about
00:11:47
Charlie Kirk ever like on the thing he wasn't talking about Charlie Kirk he was talking about everything else but talked
00:11:53
about Biden he talked about like how stupid Biden is tariffs he started going on about Tylenol essentially which is we
00:11:59
can get to but uh a bunch of things and I was like abs it's like when he when someone said how are you feeling about
00:12:06
someone who's supposedly close to your family he started talking about this is what got Jimmy Kimmel into trouble. He
00:12:11
started talking about the building of the ballroom. Like it was weird. And so I think very few people there did not
00:12:17
take an opportunity to use Charlie Kirk's death as something to their own agenda or advantage. Elon Musk center
00:12:25
one of course published a picture of him and Trump together and said for Charlie
00:12:30
and all I could think of for Elon, not for Charlie. It was never for Charlie. And you know, they'll say Charlie wanted
00:12:36
us to be together, this and that, but this this poor murdered man is being used as a a vehicle for all these people. I it's it's really quite a st
00:12:47
and they'll continue to do so going forward. Yeah. I've never seen I was trying to
00:12:53
think I've never seen a service like that. Um I was trying to think when other famous political um figures or
00:13:01
were murdered and I don't I mean typically it just feels as if our politics have permeated the most sacred spaces. Um and it's it's
00:13:14
just very just weird. It's just well if you're going to put it in stadium it's certainly not a service for
00:13:21
the person who died. That's the thing. Although I'm planning on having an entire stadium when you go. I'm gonna do
00:13:27
an entire I'm gonna have celebrities in stuff like that. Yeah. And then I'm gonna try to raise money
00:13:33
for myself. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread across the bar at zero bond
00:13:39
done. And I want to be I want it to be male escort night. Right. Um anyway, obviously they're going to take advantage of this as far as they can do this. and it's unoured, but I I will say
00:13:51
it'll be interesting to see what she does next cuz she certainly is an appealing character. Um, uh, you can see
00:13:58
like some of the people who want that role going, "Oh, Carrie Lake went, "Oh, if only it was me." That kind of thing.
00:14:05
Um, but, uh, but they uh, but she's definitely going to be an interesting political figure, I think, if she
00:14:12
handles it correctly. We'll see. Charlie Kirk said she was more conservative, much more conservative than him. Um, but
00:14:18
if she handles herself, she has a political future. That's what I kept thinking when I was watching it. I hate
00:14:23
to say that. And now on to the story breaking just as we tape. Jimmy Kimmel is expected to be back on the air
00:14:29
Tuesday night. Let me read a statement from a Disney spokesperson. Last Wednesday, we made the decision to
00:14:36
suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It
00:14:42
is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were illtimed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last
00:14:48
days having a thoughtful conversations with Jimmy and after those conversations, we reached a decision to
00:14:54
return the show on Tuesday. First thoughts. First thoughts on this. I'm surprised. And this is literally another press release gangbanged by a
00:15:07
dozen $1,200 an hour comm's consultants. And Bob said, "Okay, I have yet another
00:15:13
chance to be a leader here, and I've decided to lie." Let me get this. They spoke to Jimmy and he said, "I promise I
00:15:19
won't do it again." I mean, this has [ __ ] nothing to do with First off, his comments were not illtimed. His They weren't his com What did he say? He's in the
00:15:31
fourth stage of grief grief construction. It was funny. He and all of us have said much worse.
00:15:38
And then the and also that was a weird response to how are you doing about the death of your friend.
00:15:44
Yeah, I'm doing very good by the way. I think it's very well. But anyways, this is they they should have been I mean a
00:15:51
couple observations. The first is the one I immediately go to is I'm now more emboldened, convinced that a national economic strike is the way to go here. Because what happened here was they
00:16:05
started getting uh actors probably called and said, "I'm not going to work with Disney." They
00:16:11
they saw thousands of screenshots being sent to them saying, "Okay, I'm cancelling Hulu." This was
00:16:20
about money. This has nothing to do with what happened to Target as you know. Same thing with their
00:16:26
Yeah. This has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel and saying, "Okay, this was oh no, we [ __ ] up. We
00:16:35
miscalibrated. We totally mistook, you know, we took the wrong temperature. We made the wrong decision. People are are cancelling their subscriptions, canceling their trips to Disney,
00:16:46
canceling their movie. They're not going to work with us. It's going to hurt our share price." So all of a sudden we have
00:16:52
found our testicles. Your thoughts? I I I agree with you. I think what a [ __ ] waste of time and stupidity.
00:16:59
Like what a dumb decision on the behalf of Ber to do it in the first place. And now they've got, you know, egg on their
00:17:05
face. And it just doesn't I'm can't wait to see what he says. What are they going to He's obviously not giving, you know,
00:17:11
as I think it's Sinclair or NextStar. I think it was Sinclair that demanded that he give money to the Turning Point uh
00:17:18
group that uh Kirk ran. Uh that's ridiculous. You don't tell people what to give money to. That's insane. He
00:17:25
didn't do anything to, you know, it's not like Roseanne Bar who said heinous things, haziness and racist things about
00:17:32
um Valerie Jarrett, you know, and they didn't even make or give money, I don't know, to any group. Um, they fired her,
00:17:39
that's for sure, and to me deservedly in that case. Um, but uh, but it just it's
00:17:46
so stupid. Like I sit there, I'm like, what what is he going to do? I I as you you and I both think he should just go
00:17:52
off and do things on his own. What does he need this crap for in a dying industry, in a problematic economic
00:17:58
situation? He's going to get the screws put to him on costs now because there are some significant issues around costs
00:18:04
and audience and everything else. So, I just I'm curious why he returned. I feel
00:18:10
like he had the upper hand here because it's such a boneheaded move by Disney and it puts a stain on on Bob Iger.
00:18:17
That's it. Just does for the rest of his life. This is what he's going to be the payoff about Stephanopoulos and now
00:18:23
this. Yeah, it's I mean it does it is actually quite significant because this is the the Republicans were claiming oh no, it wasn't president it wasn't pressure from
00:18:34
the administration. It was a private company doing what they're allowed to do because private companies don't have to
00:18:40
honor first amendment. They can fire people for whatever pretty much whatever reason they want unless it's it has to
00:18:46
do with discrimination or their sexual orientation or their race or whatever or you know, but they get they get to hire
00:18:52
and fire at will. They're at employees. My guess is he has 160 people working with him and didn't I mean the gangster
00:19:01
move here would be for him to come back to a vicious dialogue and say and by the way um I came back on I stood up for my
00:19:09
principles I don't want to work for this company anymore this is my last show and it's easy for me to be generous with
00:19:15
the livelihoods of the 160 people who work with him and with his money because stars have a habit of even if
00:19:21
they make 10 or $20 million spending it all Yeah. And so, you know, I don't know how much
00:19:27
he needs the money, but he is in he is sitting on top of a melting ice cube. And Trump's going to go Trump's going to get
00:19:38
angry. But this this represents something bigger. And that is of all the things they've done, tariffs were not a
00:19:45
bridge too far. rounding up people, including citizens, and sending them to effectively what are black sites. That didn't seem to be a bridge too far. This feels like it may be that red line we
00:19:56
were all Yeah. Not the Epstein files, although I do think they're still alive. I think that's still Yeah, I think that's still playing out.
00:20:03
But it it's clear, I mean, even Senator Cruz kind of read the tea leaves here and said, "Look, folks, they could come for us." Right. Right. And it feels to me like
00:20:15
um there's probably I mean it'll be very interesting to see Trump's response because the administration's playbook
00:20:20
was oh no this wasn't about us threatening to take their FCC license. This was a decision a private company made. Well now that the decision of a
00:20:27
private company is to bring him back. What is Yeah. What is their response? You know, and Brandon Carr, the the single most
00:20:34
idiotic, one of the many idiotic people in the Trump administration, uh uh with this we could do this the easy way or the hard way. Okay, Brandon, let's see the Brendan, excuse me. Let's go, Brendan. Um let's do this the uh let's
00:20:48
do this the hard way. What are you going to do? What are you going to do here? And if I were Bob Iger, I'd have every law firm on speed dial and start to
00:20:55
really they should not be allowed to do this. This was a direct and bright line between what Brandon Carr said because he's such a dope and what happened here.
00:21:05
And then using the affiliates, which I'm sure there were calls made, right, to to try to put pressure on Iger. The
00:21:12
affiliates can also throw Kimmel off if they want to. I'm They can do whatever they want and put on, you know, reruns
00:21:18
of Golden Girls if that's what they think they're going to make their make their nut. But let them look like what
00:21:25
they are, which is the guy didn't do anything of any consequence here. Even the worst reading of that line, it was
00:21:33
kind of clottish, that one line about Magga doing this. But again, it's not what was said. He was fully within his
00:21:40
rights as a comic to make a joke about that stupid comment President Trump made about construction. If you died and
00:21:46
someone said, uh, you know, how are you feeling, Cara? And I go, oh, my vacation to Hawaii was amazing. It's just like
00:21:53
what? Like it's so strange. And so I just feel like, you know, I think the the day after for everyone's going to be really hard, including for Jimmy Kimmel because now, you know, I don't think all
00:22:05
these I think all these shows are on borrowed time in some fashion. But if you don't punch back, the the decisions
00:22:10
should be made over time on how to re either reinvigorate these shows or end them, wind them down in a better way. And so far, nobody's ever looked at how
00:22:21
to wind these down or invigorate them in a proper way, it seems to me, including Paramount. I
00:22:27
I think he should I mean, he's a thoughtful guy, super talented. I think he should um I think he should use this
00:22:35
as basically an opportunity to do an extended swan song with his middle finger, Stock Up. It's just very
00:22:41
interesting. One, the two takeaways for me are I mean you can look at the semantics of Iger being a coward and
00:22:47
Kimmel whether he should come back or not. The two most interesting things or observations in my view are one this
00:22:54
appears to have been a bit finally the red line where both Democrats and Republicans said too much. This just isn't you know Ted Cruz just said it. He
00:23:06
said and so did Ben Shapiro and Bill Mahers like they're going to come for us. I I see I think they're going to Let
00:23:12
me Let's Let's finish by talking about this, but what's going to happen next? I think Trump will double the [ __ ] down, so will Brandon Carr, the [ __ ]
00:23:19
Brandon Carr. Uh cuz they got to look like if you're a tough guy and then your tough guyness is called into question.
00:23:25
You got these guys want to be a tough guy. For Iger, I think there's got to be a departure eventually. You know, either
00:23:31
nice, let's do this the easy way or the hard way. I think it probably will be the easy way. As you said, there's act,
00:23:37
you know, as you have said before, activists probably pop up again. Uh, and for Kimmel, he's got to think about his
00:23:43
next chapter. I, if I were him, I'd be planning for next year right now. What about you? Last thoughts?
00:23:49
Well, uh, simple. And again, it's easy to be generous of other people's livelihood. If I were Kimmel, I'd go on
00:23:55
what I I would try and rally my writers and say, "This is our swan song, and we're going to come out. We're going to come out swinging, thoughtful, not mean-spirited, but funny, and at the end
00:24:06
say, I I I no longer want to work here. Appreciate everyone's good efforts. I appreciate the audience, and I trust you'll find me somewhere else that respects the First Amendment, great
00:24:17
American principles, peace out. Uh, dear Disney, uh, dear President Trump, please go [ __ ] yourself. And I'm allowed to say that, and you're allowed to say it about me. And the term for that is America.
00:24:28
Yeah, that's great. I like that. I like that. You could be a comedy writer. What'll Trump do now?
00:24:34
Well, you you're you're predicting that Trump is going to go apoplelectic. But it I mean it's hypocritical, but that
00:24:40
hasn't stopped him before cuz they're all Look at everyone on I was watching Abby Phillips show. The Republicans are
00:24:46
saying, "Oh, no. This wasn't about censorship. This was a private company making its own decisions." So, if he comes out swinging and says, "No, I'm
00:24:53
putting government pressure on these guys to do the right thing." Then that argument falls away. It's just really
00:24:59
shocking to me that it's not suspected pedophilia. It's not a grift around making $5 billion off of Shitcoin and
00:25:05
then 600,000 people go on to lose $4 billion. It's not tariffs reducing our prosperity. It's censorship that appears
00:25:13
to be the red line in America specifically. People have canceled their contracts. A lot of commercial backlash
00:25:20
and Republicans have actually spoken up. It's just I would have never guessed that this was I
00:25:27
thought there were red lines everywhere. This appears to be the red line in indelible for a lot of people. And then very briefly, I
00:25:34
Oh my god. He just wants to figure out as elegant a way as possible to declare victory and leave.
00:25:40
Yeah. He just wants to wait till he's Cheryl Samberg in 2018. like, "Oh, [ __ ] Everyone's figured out that I'm writing books about gender equality while ignoring that little, you
00:25:53
know, 14-year-old girls are cutting themselves as I position myself as a as a as the next president. I should have
00:25:59
left two or three years ago." That Bob Iger is the Cheryl Samberg of 2022 right now. He's like, "Why the [ __ ] didn't I ring the bell, have parties at that cool restaurant at
00:26:13
Disney, continue to go to the Academy Awards, and just sit from the sit back and from the cheap seats heckle
00:26:18
whoever the new CEO was." Yeah. Yep. That is true. That is true. He did his He decided for some reason to
00:26:24
do his third tour in Vietnam and he is getting shot every 30 minutes. His ass is getting fragged. He went back voluntarily and it's like, "What the [ __ ] was I thinking?"
00:26:34
Was I thinking? Yeah. You know, remember Sandberg was supposed to be CEO of Disney. Anyway, uh let's go on a quick
00:26:41
break when we cut. Welcome back, Jimmy. We're excited to hear your uh your monologue. It should be spicy, I think.
00:26:46
I mean, it's it's literally I don't know about you. It's the first time I'll I'll tune into Jimmy Kimmel in about seven years
00:26:52
live. That's true. We all watch everything on media. Okay. Uh Scott, let's go on a
00:26:57
We'll see it on TikTok. That's where we'll see it. That's where we'll see it. Let's go on a quick break and when we come back, the
00:27:02
Trump administration sends big tech into a panic over H1B visas. Support for the show comes from Framer. The early stages of the internet were the wild west. Kids today will never
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framer.com promo code pivot. Rules and restrictions apply. Scott, we're back with more news. Now to the corporate panic about uh Trump administration's new price $100,000
00:28:21
price tag uh on H1B visas for skilled foreign workers. The Friday announcement had companies and their lawyers scrambling to get workers in place before the new policy took effect on Sunday. The White House later clarified
00:28:33
the charges only apply to new visas, not renewals or current visa holders and does not affect holders ability to
00:28:38
travel to and from the US. Of course, they rolled it out stupidly. Amazon employs over 14,000 H1B holders and
00:28:45
Microsoft Meta and Apple and Google employ over 4,000. It's a it's a big deal. Uh some people were backing it
00:28:51
like uh uh Netflix uh founder co-founder uh Reed Hastings. Um a lot of people have been in ar up in arms about these things and the complexity and who gets them and everything else. I don't mind
00:29:04
some reform here. I would agree with Reed on that. Um what are your thoughts on this from from a from a employer
00:29:11
employment perspective? Uh so this is this is um the the fact pattern continues and that is these people don't understand basic economics um and how markets work and that is one
00:29:24
of the core advantages of America is that we have the greatest inflows historic unprecedented inflows of
00:29:31
capital but there are two different forms of capital. One is actual financial capital. For the last 15
00:29:38
years, everyone has been buying US stocks. We have the cheapest financing. There is $5 million in venture capital
00:29:45
available for every startup in the United States. There's 1 million in venture capital financing for every
00:29:51
startup in Europe. That means our startups have more fuel in the tank, can take bigger risks, can attract better people. Anyways, you get cars, washing
00:30:02
machines, you know, everything is cheaper because of the massive inflow of financial capital in terms of our
00:30:09
ability to build things, in terms of our ability to finance and afford things. Also, something that people don't pay as
00:30:15
much attention to is we have unprecedented access to global human capital from the four corners of the earth. And that is the best and brightest from from Sri Lanka to to
00:30:29
South Africa to Seoul all have one thing in common and that is their parents think if I'm really successful the ultimate signal or validation of my success is that I can send my kid to an
00:30:43
elite American university. It costs half a million dollars. It's 90 points of margin. I mean just to riff a bit for a second on how stupid we're being there. discouraging people from applying to
00:30:55
global schools. There were a bunch of universities, including, I think, Duke, that sent a message out to their foreign
00:31:00
students on certain visas. Don't leave the US this summer because you might not be able to get back in. We we bring in
00:31:07
these kids who tend to be the richest, most talented people in the world, and a lot of them. And then we charge them a half a million dollars over four years in rent, Chipotle, tuition. We at 90
00:31:21
points of gross margin. This is an unbelievable business. And then a lot of them fall in love, decide to go to the
00:31:27
go work for Salesforce, stay here, go home, feel better about America, or go on to be the CEOs of [ __ ] Mastercard, Adobe, and Microsoft. And those are just
00:31:38
the people from India. So what are we doing here? By charging $100,000, we've opted for some brain
00:31:45
deadad short-term thinking that we can make money. Well, he likes to do that with the tariffs, the same thing. But all you're
00:31:50
going to do is discourage. You're going to say, "Okay, there's two types of people, and I'm being reductive here at
00:31:57
Stern, the internet, I say this on the first day of class, find the international students and get to know
00:32:03
them. One, they're the funnest people to party with, and two, they're the richest people in the world because the reason they're here is because their dad owns
00:32:10
the license to PNG in Honduras. Get to know them because the next time you go there, you're going to have the best
00:32:15
time cuz their father owns the TV station there." And it's a little bit embarrassing, but it's true. And then you have the PhD students. Those people
00:32:23
we have to pay. They are literally the brightest young human capital in the world. They are just extraordinary.
00:32:31
And we get them from the four corners of the planet. So what you're saying is I just want the rich kids, not necessarily
00:32:37
the most talented. In addition, Cara, my firms were were were built by two things. So overachieving young women and also people who wanted to stay here and I was willing to sponsor them. So the
00:32:50
key my key programmer at red envelope Jawad Muhammad an immigrant from Pakistan the key consultant at L2 a
00:32:57
Canadian woman named Claude Dejokus if if it had cost $100,000 or cost me $100,000 to get them to stay I would have said I love you but I can't afford this. So who can afford it? The same
00:33:11
people. Meta, Alphabet. So all this is is one, a reduction in an incredible resource that we attract from the four corners of the earth in terms of human capital and two yet another transfer of capital and
00:33:25
power from the 99.9% of firms that can't afford to pay $100,000 for somebody to the folks who can. Mark Zuckerberg is licking his lips because all the shitty little startups nipping at his heels
00:33:39
that might disrupt him now will no longer have access to the most talented people abroad. Right. So, one of the things, let me
00:33:46
read you Reed Hastings one. Um, I've worked on HB1 polit H1B politics for 30 years. Trump's $100,000 per year tax is a great solution. It will mean H1B is used for very high value jobs, which
00:33:58
will mean the lottery, no lottery needed and more certainty for these jobs. React to that.
00:34:04
Well, first off, I think Reed is fantastic. And um when he said that, it immediately gave me pause because anytime Reed says something I that is not correct or not correct that doesn't
00:34:15
align with my values, I stop and think, well, maybe this guy has a point because I have a lot of respect for what he's saying.
00:34:20
I think it works for Netflix. I think they can afford to bring in these folks. But if you're some I just don't it
00:34:26
shouldn't be based on in my view the greatest thing about I mean if she's just benefited enormously from people
00:34:32
who are one willing to take risks. There's something to the guy who's willing to crawl over fences and risk being shot at who makes for a really good services worker. you know, there
00:34:45
there that DNA of of risk-taking. When people in the UK ask me to summarize the difference between our success and theirs, and there's just no doubt about it, our success, we've just blown away
00:34:56
Europe the last 34 years, I say, "It all comes down to one thing." And I look at the audience of UK citizens or European
00:35:02
citizens. I said, "My parents at the ages of 19 and 21 got on a steam ship with no money to come to
00:35:09
the US." And I said, "You're the ones that stayed." And then in the US, it's not it's even regional within the US. Think about where all the most valuable companies have been made. It's people
00:35:19
who inherited the DNA of their forefathers who were willing to take a risk, go over the Rockies, and eat their
00:35:25
cousins to find a better life. So the riskier you get, the more risk aggressive you get, that TNA plus the ability to draw on this grand human capital results in the most profitable,
00:35:37
most valuable companies in history that pays for our Navy. Yeah. And for food stamps.
00:35:42
Let me just say I suspect at that dinner they said to do this and he did it and he he can make it like look we raised
00:35:48
over 10 billion. I I bet at that tech dinner when they were there, all the ones who will benefit from that
00:35:54
suggested this to Trump, right? It just came it didn't not come out of nowhere. I just it it helps.
00:36:00
That's interesting cuz they can afford it. They can afford it and they probably mention it to him and said, "Oh, you'll
00:36:05
be able to say you raised this much money could be from us and oh, you took money from us." Interesting. thought
00:36:10
that I just feel like that's what happened there that this just came pretty much out of nowhere and they just
00:36:17
s all of them suggested it and there was not a startup among them in that group. Anyway, uh we need to move on but um but
00:36:24
it it the fix is in for the big guys and I I see I see Reed's point. It's a bit little bit un unorganized and it sort of
00:36:31
allows people to think you know to the right especially conservatives to say oh we're letting in too many immigrants but
00:36:37
uh these high value immigrants are have made this country there's just no two ways about it but it shouldn't advantage
00:36:43
only the big companies which it will um lastly speaking of one of the things other thing is rule of law is something
00:36:49
you've talked about a lot Scott Trump has been on for business how good it is for business he's been on true social uh
00:36:56
publicly complaining to attorney general Pam Bondi. The president posted in a message to Bondi that looked like a DM
00:37:01
that the lack of criminal charges against his enemies was quote killing our reputation and credibility. Boy,
00:37:06
he's a lot smarter when he's DMing. Uh Trump's I mean heinous but smart. Trump specifically called out Senator Adam
00:37:13
Schiff, former FBI director James Comey, and new York Attorney General Leticia James. Uh in the post, he also seemed to
00:37:20
recommend his uh uh former personal lawyer Lindseay Halligan to take the probes writing to Bondi. Lindsay
00:37:25
Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot. That's who's apparently going to be doing this now. Um this is,
00:37:32
you know, Trump has been way too easy on his enemies so far. I mean, this is um bologoney charges. The the other guy
00:37:38
left because he couldn't charge James. He just didn't have evidence. The same thing with Lisa Cook. It's often a black
00:37:45
woman, which is interesting. Um this is anti-ruule of law. Like, and he's and of
00:37:50
course, and bad at doing DMs versus public posts, but that's another issue. altogether.
00:37:56
Yeah, I look I I largely agree with you. The only thing I think it's unfair to say he's targeting black women, the people and also I don't I would probably
00:38:04
push back on the fact that he's just starting that he's been easy on his enemies so far. He removed the security detail of the
00:38:10
No, I'm joking. That was a joke, my friend. Excuse me. Okay. No, he's been terrible to his enemies. But, you know, he's removing the
00:38:16
security detail on the generals who ordered the strike against the the head of Iranian security. You got to think that guy is very nervous right now. He
00:38:23
raided or ordered the raid of an FBI that has yet to really come out with why what justified that raid of former, you know, head of security adviser uh John Bolton. So, he's very much about going
00:38:36
after weaponizing government to go after his political enemies. This is and help his friends. Let's note Tom Hman who seemed to have gotten a they
00:38:43
seem to have video of him. Can you believe this [ __ ] Oh, it's just Tomman. This is the head of Homeland Security. Let me just say
00:38:49
allegedly took a bribe. allegedly they have video watch doing him doing in a bag a nicer bag I guess but it was cash
00:38:56
for but it was the FBI it's this is this is the thing that's so disappointing I'm disappointed that
00:39:03
they're unethical and essentially engaging in crime after they've been entrusted with you know the most
00:39:08
important thing in the world and that is protecting our borders and protecting the commonwealth of the United States
00:39:14
which has given them so much but they're not only criminals they're just so [ __ ] cheap criminals He he was
00:39:21
willing to potentially go to jail, deny his oath of the Constitution, let down all the people at ICE. I imagine there's some very good people there who put themselves in harm's way, think they're thinking they're doing the right thing
00:39:32
for [ __ ] $50,000. I know. He's a cheap he's a cheap I mean, it's like it's like, boss, do do
00:39:39
a reasonable job as the head of ICE. You're going to get invited to be on five corporate boards at a quarter of a
00:39:45
million dollars a year plus. I don't think a corporate board is going to want anything to do with Tom Holmes, though.
00:39:50
They're not going to do Imperial. They're not only they're not only criminal, they're stupid if these allegations are true. And the strangest
00:39:58
thing about this is this is like a Watergate level scandal almost. Yeah. No one cares based on everything that's going on. It's like, oh, whatever.
00:40:08
It's this idea of rule of law for business. Like business needs rule of law. And this look, we look like a
00:40:14
ridiculous like banana republic. We look like an autotocracy. Give billions, carve up huge companies and give it to your Republican donors.
00:40:25
And when your heads of agencies are not only inept or saying incorrect things, Cash Patel or Director Patel, um, Secretary Kennedy,
00:40:38
now it's like they've decided criminality is okay. Yeah, he should immediately be put on leave
00:40:44
and to to investigate. They said until they investigate and find out what's going on here. I don't know if they have a video of him
00:40:50
taking a bag of cash. That's like wasn't even enough. I I wonder though, is that enough? When do
00:40:55
Yeah. Where is the red line here? Lunch. I keep thinking I'm seeing red lines and
00:41:02
then they they tend to just get moved away. The only thing I kept thinking is maybe it was a bottle of liquor that he
00:41:07
thought he was taking. Anyway, uh allegedly. Uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, speaking of
00:41:12
handing out the the the the juicy bits to his friends, when we come back, the latest on the Tik Tok deal.
00:41:20
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details, important safety information, and restrictions. [Music] Scott, we're back. We're getting more details about how Donald Trump's Tik Tok deal is shaking out. Oracle founder Larry Ellison, Rupert Murdoch,
00:42:35
apparently Michael Dell will likely be included in the group taking over the American branch of the app. You can't tell. Trump lets out all kinds of weird
00:42:41
little facts, some of which may be true, some of which not. Oracle would reportly run and secure Tik Tok's algorithm in
00:42:47
the US. Under proposed terms of the deal, Bite Dance would lease a copy of the algorithm to this new group, which
00:42:53
is problematic, and Oracle would retrain it. Okay. Uh, you know, Andre's in here.
00:42:59
All his pals. All the pals. And I think they're probably doing it to calm Murdoch down because they were cuz Trump
00:43:04
was also suing Murdoch. Um, lot of old old white guys running Tik Tok. Sounds young and fresh. Uh, I don't know. I just feel like this might be the beginning of the end for Tik Tok, but
00:43:16
maybe not. I don't know. Scott, what do you think? What I don't get is I don't I don't
00:43:23
think it's a smart move. And that is for these guys because one, I think I don't
00:43:28
think the deal is going to go through. I think she is just toying with um with uh Trump saying delay, delay, get the
00:43:35
bankers involved, have a lot of concerns. Redo the deal, undo the deal, redo it, undo it. And then Congress, new
00:43:41
Congress comes in and and starts starts calling all these people in front of him
00:43:46
and saying, "Mark Andre, do you think it's fair that you have first rights of first refusal versus your competitors?
00:43:53
Please explain to me the capitalism that's made you rich and now that and I I if I were these guys I mean basically
00:44:00
they're all going on a mental list of people government the White House and Congress always pivots back and forth. That's one of the healthier things about our democracy. Typically what everybody
00:44:11
wants the only thing you know they want is they usually want change. They usually want okay let's try something
00:44:17
different and they go they swing to the other side. What happens when you're the
00:44:22
VC firm that engaged in this type of uh you know um oligarchy when you're the wealthiest man in the world who you know was the Republican donor don't you
00:44:34
aren't they inclined to say you know we've thought about it and there's some regulations we're passing that oh what
00:44:39
do you know they're especially punitive on AI in database firms and on VC these guys are just setting themselves up they are for let me put it this way. Do
00:44:51
they think that do they think rep that political retribution that impacts private sector individuals is solely
00:44:58
limited to Republicans? I think their bet is the Republicans are kind of craven oligarchs, but the Democrats won't do that to us. The Democrats, they'll play by the rules, those [ __ ]
00:45:10
whims. I think they think that I think they think they'll win. They they'll do everything they can to stop the Democrats from getting back in power and
00:45:16
then they Good luck. I just I mean it may not be 26 or 28, but it'll happen eventually, guys. It always does.
00:45:22
Yeah, I know. But I just feel like they're not going to Look, let's talk about the product of Tik Tok. All it
00:45:27
does is make people be like, "Do I really need this Tik Tok?" I I have to tell you, I am really enjoying Instagram
00:45:34
and threads. I like whether they get big or not, they're just like pleasant. Like in terms of I'm talking about I watch
00:45:40
food being made. I'm not talking about political discussions. I had an interesting guy who I like, Chris
00:45:46
Freigh, write me saying, "You've got to get back on uh I'm going to read it because it's was really interesting. He texted me um uh this week uh ask telling
00:45:54
me I should get back on you and I should get back on Twitter." That's what he was saying. Um let me just read it cuz it's
00:46:00
I like Chris a lot. Um he goes um you're more famous than ever but changing less
00:46:06
minds. Your latest pivot was fantastic. A banger. It went out to your only your Facebook. Your top posts on Twitter are
00:46:11
from 2023. At the very least, you should put out a copy of recent great episodes on X and tag them all the toady
00:46:17
hypocrites and call them out. Uh Scott would call it violence uh would call the violence on full capitalism or similar.
00:46:23
Do it, said Chris. And I was like, we're doing great everywhere. We were our our audience is growing. Our revenues are
00:46:29
growing. Uh our demo is diverse. I went on and I said, Twitter is a waste of time as always has been. It gets us
00:46:35
exactly zero new listeners. Both Scott and I do not post there anymore because it is a Nazi porn bar. It makes us feel
00:46:40
badly. So, all due respect and thanks for the suggestion, but hard pass. Um, what do you think about this? I find it
00:46:47
them useless over there and spending my time arguing with people who hate me. I don't know. What do you think?
00:46:53
Well, I I take mental health really seriously because I have fragile mental health. I used to like to tell people
00:46:58
that I was mentally really strong. What I figured out was that I'm mentally strong to everyone around me. I'm good
00:47:03
in a crisis. I'm helpful to other people, but you know, I'm very hard on myself and I get depressed a lot and
00:47:09
angry a lot. And I figured out, okay, what makes me feel better and also what triggers it? And the things that make me
00:47:15
feel better are sweating, eating clean, abstinence from alcohol and THC for a while, being around family, and
00:47:22
affection like touch with my dogs, touch with my kids. That that sounded weird. Anyways, but those things help reverse
00:47:30
my downward spiral. Also, one of the biggest mental health hacks I have registered in the last 5 years
00:47:38
was getting off Twitter. Yep. I there the the the level of vitriel, the algorithms uh highlighting and encouraging people to
00:47:49
say incredibly vile, unfair things about not only you but about the other people
00:47:55
commenting in this great weirdness where you have to go back and see, you know, okay,
00:48:02
there's a bunch of people arguing over whether I should be called professor genocide, right? And then I don't you don't get
00:48:08
that [ __ ] on the other platforms. No, you don't. They don't. Or people or people making white
00:48:13
supremacist comments. And and also and also you said something that really impacted me. You said, "I'm not going to
00:48:20
paint that guy's [ __ ] fence." And by that also it away from all that it doesn't make us money. It never
00:48:27
It never did. This is what I said to him. I said, "Look at the result." I look I look at results and threads LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, Blue Sky,
00:48:34
and even Reddit work well to bring us audience, which makes us money. Sparring with a toad like Brendan Carr is a waste
00:48:41
of time and money for me. And why should I do it? I don't um uh I don't think it
00:48:47
helps me in any way, and I'm just not going to do it because I don't life is too short. And I wrote I ended up saying
00:48:52
life is too short to give a steroid fil imbecile like so many on that platform, another minute of my time. I have four
00:48:58
kids. I would rather focus on and also Scott. That's what I Your fifth child. My fifth child. No, but there's the the other thing you realize having gotten off it and I can
00:49:11
guarantee anyone who gets off it, you're going to realize as I did within about 30 or 60 days, just how small it is.
00:49:18
That's correct. It's a bunch of people who get feel like they register some sort of importance
00:49:23
from a tweet that gets a lot of likes, all yelling back at each other. Yeah. I don't miss out on news. I don't
00:49:29
miss out on any relationships. I don't think I've missed out on any opportunities. And by the way, I am
00:49:35
someone who has between depending on how you account for it, somewhere between three and eight people working on social media for me between video, YouTube,
00:49:46
managing links, managing LinkedIn threads, Instagram. I take social media very seriously. I am on it a lot more
00:49:52
than I'd like to be because I realize if I want to build business and economic security for me and my team, it's all about social media.
00:49:58
Post I think they're very sweet. Uh but that I have not seen any evidence that I lose intellectual capital or financial capital by not being, as you described it, the Nazi porn bar. I just
00:50:10
haven't registered any any decline in anything. Occasionally I get a text Occasionally I
00:50:15
get a text from someone saying, "Oh, this was interesting." And it's a linked X and I can't open it. That's the biggest downside.
00:50:21
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why I I never send those to you anymore. Anyway, uh Chris, you're wrong. Sorry. We're gonna tell you that. All right, Scott, one
00:50:27
more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for this show comes from Brex.
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00:51:03
Okay, Scott, let's do some wins and fails. Shall I go first? You go first. I have to say K-pop Demon Hunters. I
00:51:10
know it's been a trend already, but it is so good. And what's interesting is it was put together by uh Korean-Americans
00:51:15
and Korean Canadians. Now it's really popular in Korea, too. Um just an amazing group of people who were, you
00:51:22
know, all these people sort of trained to be um just the group behind it is really interesting. What an interesting
00:51:27
idea. Um they took advantage of the K-pop popularity. It's a it's really well done. The animation I really like.
00:51:34
The music is so infectious and terrific. Um I I have I under now having watched it um twice now. Uh it's it's really really good. It's really just really
00:51:47
good. Well done. Uh Netflix. Uh my fail is Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is continuing attacks on children. Um I they're now going after Tylenol. Listen, I'm no I if
00:51:59
you want to read a book, No More Tears, uh uh by I think it's Gardner Harris, I believe, uh is some book. Like, it really is something. Um all the problems these these drug companies have brought
00:52:12
upon us, all the all the stuff they've done that's been awful. It's called No More Tears. It's really shocking the
00:52:17
stuff they pulled. But RF Kennedy setting setting Tylenol to autism that recent meeting they had it is so not science-based and all these studies do not show this. I think we should find
00:52:30
out the causes of autism. I I think they're quite probably quite complex. Um but this is no way to do this. This kind
00:52:37
of nonsensical non-science approach by non-science people is incredibly dangerous. So, um, again, not a fan of
00:52:46
big drug companies, but Jesus Christ, this is they're killing children. They're killing children is what they're
00:52:52
doing. Go ahead. Um, yeah, I like your I got to w I got to watch that K-pop film. My win is that people essentially deciding to take up
00:53:02
economic arms against Disney. I do think generally in the past some boycotts work, most do not. But there's even if you look historically like there was an
00:53:14
economic strike in Russia that had huge impact um in the earlier part of the 20th century. I mean there have been instances all over the world where economic strikes have really been effective. And I do think that people
00:53:27
cancelling Disney Plus, Hulu, ESPN, be clear, they notice. And it'll come up in the next earnings call because to be clear, all of these firms need to stop using the term stakeholders. They use
00:53:40
the term stakeholders as a means of trying to deflect scrutiny and pretend they were, you know, they were virtuous
00:53:46
and virtue signal that they cared more about their share price. 97 98% of a senior management's
00:53:53
compensation will come from options on stock. So all they care about is shareholder value. Now some people might argue that's fine and I think that's fine, but stop the stakeholder thing.
00:54:04
And if you want to hurt these companies or you want to send a message um and I you know look this is hard now
00:54:11
this is easy to recommend now that I no longer have kids but if you're planning to go to Disney in the near future, maybe go to Universal, maybe go
00:54:17
somewhere else. Uh, and also the the easiest thing to do right away is cancel the host of Disney Disney apps. And it looks as if we're seeing a lot of that.
00:54:27
So that's my win is I'm increasingly believing that people need to start flexing their spending and uh economic strike muscles. So my win
00:54:38
do you mean you no longer have kids? You have You have kids that use Disney. No, I Yeah, I'm no longer I
00:54:45
used to do 364 days a year of of fairly mediocre parenting. And that where I would make up for it is I would agree to take the kids for one or two days and all of their friends to the seventh
00:54:55
circle of hell to Disney. Yeah. And so I used to take my kids to Disney every year. Now they're out of that. Then they go to Universal when they're
00:55:01
in their, you know, they hit 13, 14. Now we're hopefully out of that stage. I can just take them to Drake or to the
00:55:07
weekend or to Premier League games. Yeah. My kids are watching. Not. My little kids are watching Disney all the time. The older ones.
00:55:13
Well, you're about to go through it again. I'm not going to Disneyland. I'll go to Universal. You're like that. You're the opposite of
00:55:19
that commercial. What do you do? I'm not going to Disney. Well, I never liked it. One time I Well, no one likes No adult likes it
00:55:25
unless you're No, I really didn't like it. It was a very, you know, um I call it when in during an interview with Iger one time,
00:55:31
I called it the unhappiest place on earth. Um but anyway, so I wasn't ever a fan. I'm I'm definitely not going now,
00:55:36
but go ahead. And then uh you got me thinking actually with this uh this conversation you're having this afternoon with the family who's whose um son committed suicide after establishing
00:55:49
what this parasocial or synthetic relationship. You know we've been studying you've been
00:55:56
in tech for longer than me or covering it. I've been in technology a long time and in 2017 and this is how we met when
00:56:04
I wrote the book before back then the only discussion around the four was who was going to be president Jeff Bezos or
00:56:10
Sher Samberg and I basically my book was uh there's a problem here these companies represent real risk to society and to income inequality and concentration of power and I think we're
00:56:25
going to look back on this and think why didn't we think about this earlier, sooner and typically it takes 20 years.
00:56:33
It took 20 years of overdoses and people dying from opiates. It took kind of 20 years before we started the education
00:56:40
around okay smoking is bad for you. It typically takes 20. It's starting to happen with phones kind of smartphones.
00:56:45
20 years later people are starting to ban phones in schools. I'm gonna skip to the part where it should take 20 months,
00:56:52
not 20 years, around one specific type of technology that uh as someone who thinks they have a decent understanding of teenagers and of technology, the scariest thing on
00:57:06
the horizon isn't AI weapons or AI powered drones. It's these character AIs, especially character AIs who establish a relationship with young
00:57:17
people whose brains are being wired and have huge needs for friendship and are trying to figure this out or relationships. And basically character AI is intimacy without the friction. No
00:57:30
awkward pauses, no vulnerability, no rejection. And that is literally opium to a teenager. But it's it's opium to adults too. I mean men Especially to kids, it's basically
00:57:43
it's also it's emotional malnutrition just as ultrarocessed foods, you know, they hack our taste buds, but they leave us obese and undernourished. Synthetic relationships similarly risk
00:57:55
leaving young people over stimulated yet starve for real human connection. And they they learn to expect relationships to be
00:58:02
endlessly responsive, ego stroking, frictionless, and and safe. and real people with their
00:58:09
quirks and difficulties and contradictions become less appealing. And so really what this is character AI
00:58:16
is weaponized affection. And that is these firms are they're not in the business of fostering healthy
00:58:21
development. They're in the business of maximizing engagement. And that means the most successful among these
00:58:27
character AIs will be the most addictive. the ones that that that sexualize, intensify emotional dependence and keep kids coming back.
00:58:38
And in some when the product is affection, the business model here is exploitation. And we've seen this movie
00:58:44
before with Instagram and teen girls self-esteem. Character AI is the sequel. And it's even scary scarier, Cara, because it pretends to care.
00:58:54
Yep. It pretends that it's your friend. And it and I'm not I want to be clear. I'm
00:59:00
not accusing Sam Alman or anyone else of of malice by commission. They don't want
00:59:06
kids hurting themselves. I'm accusing them of malice by omission. And what's the solution here? I have in my view
00:59:14
never seen a product more similar to alcohol, the military, porn that should be agegated. Yeah. No person under the age of 18 has the brain in my view or the maturity to
00:59:28
resist the temptation of an intimate friction rel frictionless relationship with a synthetic AI that'll make them feel better and slowly but surely try to
00:59:39
remove them and sequester them from the difficulty and the friction and the reward
00:59:44
of real life. This [ __ ] needs to be shut down for people under the age of 18. It's not about hearts and prayers. We need more safety standards. We're going to put in parental controls that no
00:59:57
parent can figure out how to use. We need to agegate social media, but especially
01:00:05
character AI. Twothirds of teenagers are now in some sort of parasocial relationship with a character AI. That is a [ __ ] disaster.
01:00:16
Yep. And also also open AI given it's the biggest. It's all of them. I mean, I think with what this family with the
01:00:22
with the chat GPG one is alleging as design defects in it in that these these sort of frictionless uh caloriefree
01:00:30
relationships that make easy to manipulate kids. But I'll tell you it is a I interviewed Cherry Turkal for my
01:00:36
secret CNN project who was a very famous um person around these talked about artificial relationships from for decades now and the dangers of them. It's affecting, she goes, it used to be
01:00:48
sort of a side person that I knew that was doing this. Now it's a lot more people and it's affecting marriages
01:00:54
where people go and get advice on marriages and partnerships and everything else. She said it's really infecting not just young people but lots
01:01:01
and lots of people who are using it for relationships or to solve relationships and then real world relationships are
01:01:06
too hard. Um, and people don't like them, you know, which is what I like about rel real world relationships
01:01:13
because they're too hard. There are there are hard, but that's where all the beauty comes in, Scott. That's how I
01:01:18
feel about you. Anyway, great one. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or
01:01:24
whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/piv to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. Okay, that's the show.
01:01:31
Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott,
01:01:37
read us out. Today's show is produced by Larara Neman, Zoe, Marcus Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie engineered this
01:01:43
episode. Jim M edit the video. Thanks Elsa to Drew Burrow's mission on Dan Shalon. Nishak Kuras, Vox Media's
01:01:50
executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot
01:01:55
from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine nymag.com/pod.
01:02:00
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, I will see you later in
01:02:06
the week.