00:00:00
Cara, you know, you grew up like I did. You know, you're Italian. You don't give
00:00:04
a [ __ ] Okay. You know, I don't give a [ __ ] I'm ready to fight. Yeah. You
00:00:08
know, because I grew up here on Long Island. We were doing push-ups in the parking lot outside of discos getting
00:00:14
ready to fight people. Okay. I don't give a [ __ ] I will fight Trump every step of the way.
00:00:25
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Scott is
00:00:31
somewhere on a plane. We did an emergency pod yesterday and I'm glad you all listened to it and we thought it was
00:00:37
critical to do it. So today I'm joined by a friend of the pod, the one, the only Anthony Scaramucci, also known as
00:00:43
the mooch. Anthony, welcome. >> Carrick, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me. And I saw Scott last week
00:00:50
in Davos. I enjoyed his commentary and u well I enjoy your commentary. >> Thank you, Anthony. Um, anyway, I'm
00:00:58
gonna call you Anthony, not the mooch anymore. Okay. Um, I like that better. You You sit up straight when I say
00:01:03
Anthony. >> I'm sitting up straight. You You yelled at me before we started to sit up
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straight. >> I get it because it's very serious ahead of time. But but we are in a serious
00:01:11
zone today. And actually, I'm glad to have you here because I do want to talk
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about business people and their reaction to what's happening uh in Minnesota and
00:01:18
elsewhere. But before we do anything, I'd like to point out that as the episode drops, it's been 39 days since
00:01:23
the deadline passed for the DJ to release all the Epstein files. Again, uh Pam Bondi is in violation of a law and
00:01:31
they have not released them and part of this what's happening has to do with
00:01:36
this too. So let's not forget that they are out there and probably as someone
00:01:41
noted on uh one of the social media sites, they're safer than anything in America right now are the Epstein files.
00:01:47
Um, anyway, we've got a lot to discuss, so let's get to it. Uh, Donald Trump
00:01:52
says his administration is reviewing everything surrounding the shooting shooting of 37-year-old ICU nurse Alex
00:01:59
Prey in Minneapolis this weekend. He's also now sending his borders Tom H. Homeman to Minneapolis. The leading GOP
00:02:05
candidate for Minnesota Governor just dropped out of the race, saying he can't
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support the National Republican retribution on the citizens of his state. And as we record, a federal judge
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is hearing arguments on temporarily halting the immigration crackdown in Minnesota. On the latest episode of On
00:02:20
with Cara Swisser, I spoke with Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry. This was before the Alex Py shooting, but Fry
00:02:27
knew another incident was inevitable. Let's listen. For over a month before Renee Good was shot, the chief of police
00:02:36
and I were both privately and publicly expressing concerns that somebody was going to get shot or killed. That either
00:02:43
a civilian, a resident, a police officer, or an ICE agent was going to get shot and killed. And tragically,
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that happened. And then it happened again. And by the way, it's going to happen again on top of that. uh because
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this is the kind of conduct that we're seeing that inevitably will lead to people getting hurt. Um
00:03:03
it's deeply concerning. Um but it's not just Minneapolis that should be concerned right now. I have a
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deep concern for the endurance of our republic when the constitutional norms and these main stays of good governing
00:03:24
principles are thrown in the trash can. >> Unfortunately, he was pressing although
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I think a lot of people did understand the escalating tensions there. I'll also
00:03:32
note I've been calling out CEOs for their silence on this. As comedian Steve
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Hoffsteader put it on threads, if speaking out against fascism damages your brand, that means your brand is
00:03:42
fascism. But since our last recording, some execs are speaking out, at least in Minnesota. On Sunday, more than 60 CEOs
00:03:49
of Minnesota based companies, including Target, Best Buy, and 3M, released a letter calling for deescalation. It took
00:03:54
them long enough. and more than 450 tech workers uh from Google, uh Meta, OpenA,
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and other companies have signed a letter urging CEOs to demand ICE leave cities and cancel company contracts with ICE.
00:04:05
Uh Scott and I talked about what happened this weekend as a turning point. Anthony, I'd love your thoughts
00:04:09
on this because you're you again, you were just at Davos, tons of business leaders. You obviously are tuned into
00:04:15
the political system. You are a Republican who has turned away from the Republican party um very early, I would
00:04:20
add. talk about what what is happening here um from a you know obviously we're
00:04:26
all worried about uh the republic itself as the mayor had but it's it's it's an
00:04:30
on the ground moving situation so I'd love you to look at it from the business
00:04:34
point of view from Trump's point of view and and your own >> well well I I I I think it's important
00:04:39
to understand what they were trying to do and how it backfired and we'll talk
00:04:43
about the business people so what they were trying to do because I know these sons of [ __ ] is they were trying to
00:04:49
set up a great media exposition for themselves in the culture war. And so here the narrative the uh
00:04:57
Minnesota blue state blue state is bad corruption in the blue state is conjoined. This is that conspiracy
00:05:05
nonsense. >> Yeah, exactly. But it's a conspiracy where >> it is the greatest issue our nation
00:05:10
faces. The group of people who committed fraud. You should just look at the White
00:05:13
House in any given day. But go ahead. I I I I I I I I understand the push back and we can talk about the Democrats, how
00:05:19
they should be responding better to it, but I want you to understand what they're doing. So, they're sitting there
00:05:24
saying, "Okay, this is great. We're going to send the ICE people up there.
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They're going to rough these people up, and this is going to be great for our
00:05:31
culture war. Uh we're going to send a signal to our red meat eating, law-abiding people that we're getting
00:05:38
tough on people, particularly in the blue states where they're doing quote unquote all the fraud. Now they send
00:05:44
inexperienced ICE agents up there and we we saw the videos and Trump saw the videos which is why he's panicked and
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they murdered the guy. I mean that's basically what happened and now the whole thing has blown back on them and
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so this media imagery that they were looking for has been a negative media imagery. The problem
00:06:03
>> so just pictures you're saying just photos. >> Yeah. They they wanted a Fox News day of
00:06:09
programming where the day set from the A block for 12 hours. Look at the Trump administration, how tough ass they are
00:06:16
in action and we're we're defending the Republic against fraud and we're mean
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and we're tough and we're taking 5-year-olds because that's what we're
00:06:26
supposed to be doing. and they're tonedeaf to the overall optics. And then they created a Kent State like moment
00:06:34
for the older listeners, the younger listeners, National Guardsman shot a student at Kent State and it flipped the
00:06:41
entire political landscape at that time. And so, so what's happening here is the
00:06:46
landscape is starting to flip. But concominant to this is the chilling effect that Donald Trump and his
00:06:55
Department of Justice and his jack booted people have on business leaders. So, hear me out for a second.
00:07:05
If you're on a corporate board and you have a public CEO, you're telling the
00:07:09
guy or the woman, "Chill out, take a back seat. There's 1,000 days left for
00:07:15
Trump." If you're the managing partner of a law firm, negotiate with him. If
00:07:20
you're a president of a university, negotiate with him. He's not quote unquote Adolf Hitler. He's a lame duck
00:07:26
president. And while he's flexing on you, take it. Don't overly criticize him
00:07:31
because he could do damage to our long-term brand and damage to our long-term stock market performance.
00:07:38
>> Okay? And that's short-term short-term. But that's that's up against the stuff
00:07:42
that you just said about your brand is fascism. Okay. So, the mistake that they're all making is you have to reject
00:07:51
Donald Trump. If you don't flex on Donald Trump and reject Donald Trump, you'll be at a disadvantage. He'll
00:07:58
continue to roll you. European leaders, wake up. Business leaders, wake up. Somebody pick up the phone and call Mark
00:08:05
Carney, the prime minister of Canada, and get some executive coaching, some leadership coaching from him because he
00:08:13
gets it. Okay? You know, uh, Nuome is close, by the way. Newsome would be number two in terms of getting it. You
00:08:20
have to shove and push Trump back if you're going to get any respect from Donald Trump.
00:08:25
>> Can I ask you, you were at Davos, what did Let me just say, I talked to them
00:08:29
behind the scenes, including people that are close to Trump. Let me just say like, couldn't so close they wouldn't
00:08:34
they could be on the other side of him. They abhore him. It's really at one point was with two people. I ran into on
00:08:42
a plane and they spent 20 minutes trying to tell me, you know, we really can't
00:08:46
stand him. And I go, you need to shut the [ __ ] up if you're not going to say
00:08:49
it publicly cuz I don't you're not going to win my love because what you're doing
00:08:53
is so complicit. And so talk a little bit about that because you're at Davos.
00:08:57
They obviously do they still shrug and say because initially it was sort of the shruggies with business we'll have to
00:09:04
deal with it and then he'll be gone like this will this too will pass. Has that
00:09:08
did that change at all? Because the Europeans got no Scott. Tell me why. >> Uh because he's willing to do things
00:09:17
that other politicians were not willing to do. He's willing to fudge the Constitution. He's willing to overstep.
00:09:25
He's willing to detain you at the airport. He's willing to uh put a sanction against your business. He's
00:09:32
willing to do things that are outside of the realm of due process. Right? So, you
00:09:37
have to remember to be in a safe and free society, you have to be subordinate to a set of laws and you have to have
00:09:44
due process. Did the young man that was murdered this past weekend have due process? No, he did not. They made a
00:09:50
decision to murder him indiscriminately. Okay, that's authoritarianism. When when leaders are turning guns on
00:09:57
their citizens, they care more about power than they do their citizens, right? And so these corporate leaders
00:10:04
are making a very big mistake. They're they're cowtowing to Trump because they
00:10:09
feel he's got all the power and he's going to use the power in an unpredictable indiscriminate way to hurt
00:10:15
them. But if they were if they were smarter, they would all team up. The Fortune50 would team up like the 60 CEOs
00:10:22
in Minnesota and say, "Hey, listen. I'm sorry guy. We're not going to take this
00:10:26
anymore. We're going to flood the zone for Democratic donations. We're going to
00:10:30
try to get rid of your regime." Uh and he's one man standing. You see this is
00:10:35
this is the problem. >> Why don't they do that? Where are they from? >> They they don't they don't do that
00:10:40
because they're operating in their own silos. Okay? And so when you operate in
00:10:44
your own silo car, you go to your board and say, "What should I do?" And they
00:10:48
say, "Get out of the way." >> Okay? But if you were operating >> duck either duck or
00:10:53
>> duck if if the law firm Paul Weiss called 50 other law firms and said, "They're coming for me. They're
00:11:01
eventually going to come for you. What do we do?" and they all teamed up. Now
00:11:04
they've got a voice, then they can push back, right? If the Fortune 100 got together like the Minnesota CEOs, uh,
00:11:13
you see, he's he got frightened. I know this son of a [ __ ] He's a baby. You
00:11:18
know, most bullies are, okay? He looked at the video. He said, "Holy [ __ ] we
00:11:22
murdered the guy." Which is why he told the Wall Street Journal last night he's
00:11:25
reviewing everything. He called Governor Waltz this morning and he put out a friendly truth social about Governor
00:11:33
Waltz because he knows he's in trouble. Okay, now he's got these CEOs. He's
00:11:37
looking at that saying, "Whoa, that's 3M. That's Target. These are big
00:11:41
companies. If they're coming for me and I get wiped out in the midterms, okay, or they start to reject
00:11:50
Republicanism, I just took a couple billion dollars for myself. I'm gonna end up and my family's going to end up
00:11:56
in wild investigations. So, you see what he's doing? He's pulling back. That's
00:12:01
Trump's nature. Okay, >> let me let me and yet they continue. On the day of the shooting, this happened
00:12:06
in the morning. All these CEOs, including Tim Cook, who is getting blowback like you can't believe for
00:12:12
being in this Melania movie. Have you seen it, Anthony? >> The Melania, it's not on my list
00:12:18
actually, but if you if you see it, you can report back to me. >> It's selling out according to Donald
00:12:22
Trump. Of course it is, you know, but but >> it was like a one old lady with
00:12:27
Alzheimer's who wandered in like by accident is is the group of people watching.
00:12:32
>> I want to I want to tell you something from history that your viewers and
00:12:36
listeners should think about. Uh when Chamberlain headed for Munich to discuss with Adolf Hitler uh his annexation
00:12:47
uh and what was going on there. The German bureaucrats, okay, we've discovered this in their diaries
00:12:54
50, 60, 80 years later. The German bureaucrats were with great relief. They were writing to each other and in their
00:13:00
diaries. Oh, this is great. The British Empire is coming to Munich, represented by Neville Chamberlain, and they're
00:13:07
going to flex on Adolf Hitler. It's going to scare the daylights out of him,
00:13:11
and it's going to knock him out of power. Thank God this last five years have been a disaster for Germany and
00:13:19
he's going to get tough and knock Adolf Hitler on his ass. Did that happen, Cara? No, it did not happen. He went
00:13:26
there and he totally capitulated >> and he he came back with a sheet of paper said peace in our time and uh
00:13:34
Churchill said this is ridiculous. You're allowing him this birth of authoritarianism.
00:13:41
uh and five six seven you know 3 years later 2 years later you're at war 5 6 7
00:13:47
years later 60 million people are killed I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler I'm
00:13:51
just talking about behavior okay if these CEOs and these business leaders and political leaders got together and
00:14:01
said f you we're not going to take this anymore they'll scare Mike Johnson
00:14:07
they'll scare the Republicans in the Senate they'll push push back and and
00:14:12
they'll flip it, but they won't do it. As long as Trump is intimidating you
00:14:17
oneon-one, Carara, he's going to beat you because he's got the force of the
00:14:21
presidency in the federal government. >> Sure. Sure. You have the economy, if
00:14:26
you're calling, you see, see Jamie Jamie Diamond, >> who's he suing? Whom he suing?
00:14:32
>> Oh, yeah. Well, let's just talk about this for a second. He said three or four
00:14:35
things that Trump did not like. Okay. Number one, he wants the Fed to be independent. He doesn't like the lawsuit
00:14:42
and the criminal investigation against Jerome Pal. Number two, he said, "I'm
00:14:46
not giving money to the ballroom because if I give money to the ballroom, the next administration is going to say,
00:14:52
hey, jackass, you were trying to blackmail, you know, you were getting blackmailed and you were paying bribe
00:14:57
money to the president." So, so he's pretty open, pretty honest guy. I full
00:15:03
disclosure, I know Jaime personally. I love Jaime. I think he's one of the more
00:15:06
brilliant financial services executives in our history. So, he pretty honest. And then what does Trump do? You can
00:15:15
bring the hammer down on him. He's going to bring a $5 million lawsuit, which of
00:15:18
course he'll lose. And he's bringing a lawsuit against Jaime personally and the
00:15:22
bank. He'll lose the lawsuit. But this is a massive chilling effect. >> Okay.
00:15:28
>> Or would Jamie say you're going to [ __ ] lose massive chilling effect. Did you see
00:15:33
what he just did to Jamie Diamond? Listen to me. >> You didn't do it. It did. Nothing is
00:15:37
going to happen. That's the thing. I just don't I don't know why they don't
00:15:41
get the the next step. You know, you grew up like I did. You know, you're Italian. You don't give a [ __ ] Okay.
00:15:47
You know, I don't give a [ __ ] I'm ready to fight. >> You know, cuz I grew up here on Long
00:15:52
Island. We were doing push-ups in the parking lot outside of discos getting ready to fight people. Okay. I don't
00:15:58
give a [ __ ] I will fight Trump every step of the way. Okay. which is probably why he hasn't come after me because he
00:16:05
knows, okay, if he sues me, we're going to have a great time. I'm going to pick
00:16:08
up a million Twitter followers and let's go. These guys are afraid of him because
00:16:14
they see themselves as having too much to lose. But what they're missing is society has too much to lose if they
00:16:22
don't get together and they don't coales with each other. >> I don't even think that they're going to
00:16:27
I mean he's he's suing Capital One too for people who don't know. And again,
00:16:31
this comes after Diamond warned Trump not to interfere with the Fed and and called his proposal, by the way, the
00:16:37
third thing to cap credit interest rates and economic disaster. So, he was critical normally as any CEO is allowed
00:16:43
to be. And but I I just I like he's not it's like >> he's not but Cara, you understand human
00:16:52
nature. I've read your books, burn book, blah blah. You understand human nature
00:16:57
better than you're letting on. There's a impulsive weakness up against authoritarianism. There is people
00:17:05
>> I get someone like Jamie Diamond. I'm I'm surprised if he's not pushing back
00:17:09
behind the scenes very strongly. >> Oh, no, no, no. I I I I think he is. I
00:17:14
>> He doesn't look like he's easily capped. No, he he's looking at the situation
00:17:19
snickering and he's like, I'm going to wait this guy out, which he's going to
00:17:23
do, and he'll win the case, which he will, but it's a message. It's a message
00:17:28
to others. You don't want to get in my crosshairs. Okay? when when when a when
00:17:34
a when a cabinet member from Trump one comes to my office, sits on the sofa and says, "Listen, most cabinet members are
00:17:43
trying to avoid a Trump tweet and some level of humiliation." Why is that, sir?
00:17:51
Well, it could be career ruining for us if we do that. No, >> that's okay. But Cara, that's how they
00:17:57
think. Cara, I just know how they think. Poker. I want to play poker with these people. Now, let me ask you about the
00:18:04
You mentioned the Democrats. All right. So, the business leaders are going to the ones that I think are in trouble are
00:18:09
like a Tim Cook because Apple has a different set of values that it's pushed
00:18:13
for so long and here he is doing this and particularly he's standing next to
00:18:17
Brett Ratner. That piece of [ __ ] um you know at a movie nobody wants to see, right? I don't I get that he wants the
00:18:25
tarot sauce. I get that he wants things but you don't have to go this far, right? You can sort of hide like a Bob
00:18:32
Iger. You don't see him. He doesn't show up there. He doesn't say much, but he's
00:18:36
not there, right? He's not present. >> Why be present is what I want to
00:18:42
understand. >> Well, okay. So, in Patrick McGee's book, Apple and China,
00:18:47
>> uh we learn, okay, it's a phenomenal book. I thought it was the business book
00:18:51
of the year. And he talks about how entrenched Apple is in China. And so Tim is saying to himself, I got to get Trump
00:19:00
off my back and Apple's back because I'm minting money with this iPhone 17. I've
00:19:07
got new products coming out. Whether people like it or not, most of the manufacturing is in China. I can virtue
00:19:13
signal that it's moving to India or other places, but that's where it is.
00:19:17
And if Trump is off my back, that's really good for my shareholders. Okay. But but but
00:19:23
where is the line? and you're better at drawing the line than he is obviously
00:19:29
because he's looking around and saying, "No problem. I'll show up at the the
00:19:34
screening." Okay. But he happens to be showing up at the screening where there's a murder where there's a murder
00:19:40
taking place. He happens to show up at a screening where Trump is telling our NATO allies that he's going to invade
00:19:47
Greenland. And he's sending out maps on social media where he's got the provinces of Canada flagged alongside of
00:19:55
Venezuela, Cuba, and and Greenland, right? And also Iceland. I don't know if
00:19:59
you noticed that Iceland was in there as well. And so again, that that's the
00:20:04
trolling of Donald Trump. I get it. He's a culture warrior. He wants to troll
00:20:08
everybody. He wants to set all the the liberals hair on fire. I get all of that. But where where Tim is sitting
00:20:15
there, he's saying to himself, I'm going to give this guy a gold emulet like I
00:20:20
did a couple of months ago. I'm going to shove my whole head up his ass because
00:20:25
of the situation. That's >> I mean, come on. >> That's the new That's the next season of
00:20:29
Heated Rivalry. Go ahead. >> No, but I mean, come on. You can barely see Tim's ankles hanging out of Trump's
00:20:34
ass. Okay. So, so, so to me, I I'm I'm not their adviser and they would never
00:20:39
take any advice from me, but maybe they would take advice from Mark Carney because to me, if you collectively push
00:20:46
back on him, he folds like a paper suit. You know, he he looked at the letter coming in from Minnesota. He looked at
00:20:55
the video. He said, "I got to I got to I got to move out Jailhouse Barbie Christine Noom. I got to get Jailhouse
00:21:02
Barbie off the playing field. We're going to put, you know, take the bribe Honen back on the playing field, the 50
00:21:07
grand in cash. >> Drunk. I call it drunk. >> All right. We're going to put him back
00:21:10
in. >> Okay. And I'm going to acquies here and I'm going to find a way to exit this
00:21:17
disastrous situation. But but you see the the real question though for me is how are we letting Stephen Miller, who
00:21:26
couldn't get confirmed as a dog catcher, forget about anything else. >> So you explained you were there with
00:21:31
him. >> This this evil Well, I'm going to tell you how. Because Steven Miller bought
00:21:36
call ops on the worst day of Trump's political life, which was January 6, 2021,
00:21:44
where Kevin McCarthy said he's finished. McConnell said he's finished. They told
00:21:49
Pelosi, "We don't need to impeach and remove him from office because he's
00:21:51
politically finished after what he did." Mr. Miller bought call options on Trump's electoral success in 2024.
00:22:00
Nobody else bought those call options. And then Miller said, "This is fantastic. I'm an evil guy. I hate
00:22:07
people and I want to inflict pain on people." And Trump is my empty vessel to
00:22:12
get back into the White House. And oh, by the way, we're going to have four years to prepare ourselves to be even
00:22:18
more dastardly and more evil and to remove more normal people out of the checks and balances of Trump one. We're
00:22:26
going to have lap dogs in Trump 2 like Bent and Buttlick or Nutlick, whatever the I mean, the biggest [ __ ] on
00:22:33
earth. We're we're going to have these people in position, >> okay? And then I'm going to rule the
00:22:39
roost. I'm writing all the speeches. You know, you can throw this [ __ ] through
00:22:42
chat GBT. You say, "Who who does this sound like?" It's the writings of Steven
00:22:46
Miller. And so he's writing the speeches. He's promulgating the policy. How is he
00:22:51
>> Because he bought those call options. He bought those call options. See that? I
00:22:55
mean, he is a whatever he is, he's like an old crocodile. He's got to see that.
00:22:59
>> The the only way Trump will see it is if you start saying Trump is the lap dog of
00:23:05
Steven Miller. The administration's being run by Steven Miller. Trump will absolutely hate that.
00:23:11
>> Okay? And it's like when they were saying President Bannon, >> when the President Bannon Time magazine
00:23:16
cover came out, he got hit with a ray gun, knocked out of the administration. And so, but Miller is running the
00:23:24
administration. He's running domestic policy. He's running international
00:23:28
policy. He's writing the speeches about Venezuela in Greenland. And he is sitting
00:23:34
>> Does he have any foe internally? Give us one insight into him. Have you have
00:23:38
spent time with him? So, give us one. Look, I used to fight with >> besides that he looks like a cartoon.
00:23:44
>> Let me let me tell you him and I were not friends. I used to fight with him
00:23:49
left and right. There was one situation in the 2016 campaign where I called him up and read him the riot act cuz he was
00:23:56
treating donors with this like you know lack of emotional attention uh and this sort of costic
00:24:04
uh you know you know arrogant super sillious way. So look he's a terrible person. I think we can stipulate that
00:24:11
just by his behavior and his actions but it fits Trump's narrative. Okay. Because
00:24:17
Trump likes hurting people. Trump likes humiliating people. He likes hurting people. He wants to denigrate people and
00:24:26
make them feel bad, you know. And then and then when he gets himself in trouble, he will walk it back like he
00:24:31
did with the UK war veterans. He had to send out a a missive to Stormer because it was ridiculous the heat that he was
00:24:38
getting. But but this is what these people are like. And and and the problem is the waiting it out strategy. If
00:24:46
you're a corporate board official and you are on one of these corporate boards, Fortune 500, and you listen to
00:24:53
Carara and Scott, let me here. Are are you listening? Let me tell you what you got to do. You got to get your CEO in
00:25:01
position to join forces and create alliances with his other CEOs, he or she, >> and push back on Trump. You cannot wait
00:25:11
1 th000 days, Cara. >> No, we've said that. We talked about >> you got to get your [ __ ] together. You
00:25:17
got to get your [ __ ] together right now >> and on behalf of the American people and
00:25:23
channel what those German bureaucrats wanted from Neville Chamberlain. >> Don't be a Neville Chamberlain and wait
00:25:29
the 10,000 days. Too late. It's going to be too much existential damage done to
00:25:34
your company by the way and the United States. >> What they do think is the Democrats
00:25:38
won't do anything, right? Trump will punish them. Democrats won't. I'm here
00:25:41
to tell you I want to make sure the Democrats punish you all, all you tech executives. I promise that we will. We
00:25:48
have long memories, as they say, and I will make certain of that. I will bother these Democrats forever. But let me ask
00:25:54
you, which the Democrats >> The Democrats suck, though. Let me just hear me out for a second.
00:25:57
>> We all agree. You know, the the Republicans are evil, okay? So, they suck more. But the Democrats suck
00:26:04
because they can't get their [ __ ] together. If they if they could get their [ __ ] together, they would channel
00:26:10
N. Gindrich. Okay, and hear me out for a second because you're old enough to
00:26:13
remember this. In 1994, Nuke Kindred said, "Hey, we're going to we're going
00:26:17
to combat Clinton. We're going to all unify and we're get our ducks in an
00:26:22
order. Here's our 10-point contract with America. Everybody's signing on to this
00:26:27
and then when we get power, we're going to flex." The Democrats have to have the
00:26:32
doppelganger of the 1994 contract with America. And even though they don't like
00:26:37
each other and AOC doesn't see eye to eye with Gavin Newsome, get it together,
00:26:42
fellas. Get in a room. >> So they threatened to trigger a partial government shutdown withholding each
00:26:47
other. It's funny, but that's small ball is what you're saying. >> But not only is that small ball, that's
00:26:51
a disaster. You're a capital markets person. Look at where the US dollar is trading, the Japanese yen is trading.
00:26:58
Look at where gold and silver is trading. We're in full-on currency debasement. You know, Trump thinks he
00:27:04
can get out there and do his reality TV nonsense without consequence. But people
00:27:09
are pulling away from the dollar. They're forming unnatural alliances. Carney is going to China. The dollar is
00:27:16
weakening. Gold is going up. People are finding ways to barter with each other outside of the petro dollar system. And
00:27:24
and Ray Gallo is going to be right, guys. You want to shut the government down. You're going to further weaken the
00:27:30
US dollar. Don't do it. That is >> what other choice they have. They can't
00:27:34
fund >> DHS. Correct. They they also can't politically fund them. >> What's the choice? There is no choice.
00:27:42
Correct, >> Cara. There's no choice because we're in accordion and not with each other. But
00:27:48
if they shut the government down, I would rather have them fund DHS and have the help of corporate CEOs and law
00:27:57
enforcement. you know that local law enforcement is against ICE. >> Get together people, okay? Develop a
00:28:05
communication strategy. Fund it, >> but have an overwhelming group of people
00:28:11
push back on it. You don't want to shut the government down when we are facing
00:28:17
our own economic peril. We're sitting on a debt time bomb that's running towards
00:28:23
$40 trillion. >> Doesn't that hurt Trump more? like you have to sacrifice the village to save
00:28:30
the country. >> I don't I don't I don't It's not going to hurt Trump himself more. It's going
00:28:35
to hurt the man on the street more. >> Correct. >> Our our dollar has lost 28% of its value
00:28:40
since January of 2020. Okay. If you own assets, Cara, you're fine. But if you're
00:28:46
like my dad, my deceased father, who worked an hour and got an hourly wage and had no assets, you you you you took
00:28:54
30% of it. You took 30% of his life away from him. You gota we've got three or
00:28:59
four things happening in parallel tracks that you know we we can control the card
00:29:05
table and we can maintain our mantle of of financial services leadership and our
00:29:11
mantle of global leadership but we've got to change the narrative. And the way
00:29:15
you change the narrative is through coordinated opposition. Trump is banking on the fact that the liberals are so
00:29:23
self-righteous and so picky with each other that they'll have interessent fights with each other as opposed to
00:29:31
coordinate and go after him. But they could do that. They could go to the cooks. They could go to the CEO of 3M
00:29:39
and they can say, "Okay, listen. We This is not good for America. We don't want
00:29:43
our people murdered in the street. It's bad for economic innovation. It's bad
00:29:47
for capital flows into America. Uh we have to fight back. There are two people Steven Miller and Donald Trump and
00:29:55
there's us. And there's a force majour of us that can overwhelm them if we
00:30:00
coordinate with each other. And Trump is banking on the fact that they won't do
00:30:05
that. >> What's the actual move then besides let's coordinate what precisely from a
00:30:10
business? Scott and I talked about an economic boycott. Holy, wholly and totally denounce ICE alongside of local
00:30:17
law enforcement, push back on them. You create resistance, civil disobedience resistance zones, okay? Alongside of
00:30:25
citizens that are willing to protest, they got to show up unarmed so there's
00:30:28
no excuse to shoot at them. Uh you then have to you then have to push the president into a box and you have to go
00:30:35
to the Republicans and say sorry no more money for Republicans for reelection because all these people really care
00:30:42
about car is the money going into their so the way excuse me those business leaders could be an economic boycott a
00:30:48
really sustained one for example we're going to get the Democrats have to say
00:30:52
we will hurt you >> also in different ways >> I I I just think and I and I heard you
00:30:58
guys and and I understand where Scott's coming from and he's right. It's a very
00:31:02
good civil disobedient move. I would like to try something else first before we go there because that's going to harm
00:31:11
the people that we don't want to harm the most. Do you understand what I'm
00:31:15
saying? >> I get it. >> And I understand what you're saying. You
00:31:17
got to burn down the village sometimes to save the whole state. I get all that. But let's try something different. These
00:31:23
are two people. We know this from the schoolyard. the bullies when you team up against the bully.
00:31:30
>> Yes, we've seen that movie. >> You knock you knock the bully into next
00:31:33
week. >> All right, last question. Is there anybody in that White House that has
00:31:37
control other than Steven Miller? Susie Wilds doesn't seem to she tried to get
00:31:41
out. It looks like >> Susie Wilds doesn't give a [ __ ] She's looking for her next lobbying gig. You
00:31:46
know that. And look, read the interview. She's like, I'm trying to say this [ __ ]
00:31:49
about these people so that when I get out on the outside, you think I'm quasi
00:31:53
normal. >> By the way, Susie, we see you. So, Come on. I mean, Mrs. Dowfire, I mean, this
00:31:58
lady is this lady ruined herself. >> No, come on. You You >> I'm just curious.
00:32:04
>> The only The only good news here >> is that just dumb Vance, J. D. Vance is
00:32:11
so delusional. He thinks he's the heir to Trump and he thinks he's going to be
00:32:16
the 48th president. And I'm telling you that JD Vance is actually sitting on a
00:32:22
bomb that's going to blow up on him. Okay, just give it a year or two and this whole thing's going to blow up on
00:32:28
him. He's going to be the poster child for the Trump menagerie of evil. And so
00:32:36
that is that is good news, by the way, because he'll get >> I think he doesn't like himself very
00:32:40
much. >> Well, he's going to get he's going to get knocked out of the game. Okay. So,
00:32:44
that's very good news. >> You know, I call him the cyber truck of politicians, but go ahead.
00:32:48
>> Tell me why. >> Because he's it's he repels people. He repels voters. Like you look I I'm
00:32:55
telling you I was when you when you see a Cybert truck it repel people you could
00:32:59
see people pull back when they see it and whatever you think of Elon it's still a repellent vehicle right you you
00:33:05
may like him and you don't like that thing I was driving a Volkswagen ID Buzz
00:33:09
and everybody like runs towards you because it looks like a dinosaur driving down the street happy dinosaur I I'm a
00:33:17
minor player in all said but when you used to light my ass up on Twitter I used to laugh but I gota I got to tell
00:33:23
When you're lighting Elon Musk up on Twitter or you're saying this [ __ ] about
00:33:26
him on the podcast, I don't think he's laughing. Okay. I think you're like,
00:33:29
>> "Oh, you know what? >> I think you're there's a little boy
00:33:34
inside who who missing the love of his parents who's laughing. Trust me."
00:33:39
>> All right. Well, hope may someday. >> Not that I want to help him at all.
00:33:43
>> If you ever repair your relationship with Elon, I want to be there to smoke
00:33:45
the peace pipe with you. >> Never. >> I I I knew that was going to be the end.
00:33:49
>> Not happening. You You took it well. That's all I'll say. Let's go on a quick
00:33:53
break. When we come back, uh, what Trump is saying about his health, or lack thereof. Support for this show comes
00:33:59
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00:35:15
pivot. Anthony, we're back with more news. There's been speculation about
00:35:19
Trump's health for months, and a new story in New York Magazine has him going
00:35:22
on the record about it. Trump talks about his father's medical history, at one point, struggling to come up with
00:35:26
the word Alzheimer's, then insisting he does not have it. He also blames uh women's fingernails and rings for cuts
00:35:33
on his hands. Trump's doctor says he did not have an MRI, but an MRI like scan of
00:35:38
his chest and abdomen. I don't know what that is. and the results were quote
00:35:41
perfect. And of course, Trump threatens to sue the ass off New York Magazine if he decides he doesn't like the story. I
00:35:47
don't think New York Magazine, as one of the shareholders, gives a [ __ ] So, uh,
00:35:52
what do you think is really going on here with this? He's got to face the the
00:35:56
healthc care stuff, right? Because Biden didn't presumably >> physically I mean, listen, you know,
00:36:02
you're you know, it's primmaaccia. He's unwell. You don't you know if you if if
00:36:07
if someone gets busted on a football field and the bone is sticking out of the uniform, you don't you don't have to
00:36:14
be an orthopedic surgeon to know that the bone is broken. You know, it's not
00:36:18
like that. The guy is unwell, okay? He's unwell physically. He has an unsteady
00:36:23
gate. They put the red carpet out for him in Davos. He wobbled down the carpet like he did in August with Putin. He's
00:36:29
got bruises all over his hands, which looks like they're infusion bruises. They're not bumping up against the
00:36:34
signing desk when you have that level of contusion on your hand. He looks terrible. If you look at the orange
00:36:42
makeup and you contrast it to the pour of his hands, he looks absolutely terrible. I'm not a I'm not a doctor.
00:36:51
I'm just telling you primmaaccia. He looks unwell. He's forgetful. He doesn't
00:36:56
remember the word Alzheimer's. He doesn't remember people standing in front of him. Uh he's getting
00:37:03
interviewed and they say you said the following. He said I never said that. Then they play the recording of him
00:37:08
saying it and but he looks like he's telling the truth. Meaning he's demented
00:37:13
in a way where he doesn't remember it. Yeah. He's demented in a way he could
00:37:16
probably pass the lie detector test. So >> I mean he's a liar but it seems to me
00:37:19
that he doesn't remember it actually. >> Yeah. I'm sure he's lying knowingly but
00:37:23
I think there's also lies coming out of his mouth where he doesn't remember
00:37:26
anymore. So, so also the New York Times reported something which I think is very
00:37:31
critical and very similar to Biden. They're managing his schedule for 5 hours a day. They said it's 12 to 5 and
00:37:38
then they they pull him out of there or if he's got to go late night, they'll
00:37:41
start him at 5 and they'll end him at 10. Okay, he's an elderly man. He's
00:37:46
about to turn 80. It's arguably the toughest job in the world. He hauls himself around. Okay. He's moving
00:37:53
himself from national football game championships to Davos, back to Florida, back to Washington. He's moving himself
00:38:01
around a lot. Uh, and that in itself is tiring and dehydrating. And, and so, so to me, they're going to lie about it
00:38:09
like the Biden people lied about it. Okay, that's just the facts of it. And and this is why I'm saying Miller
00:38:17
advantage to Miller because if Trump's got five again, whatever you think of
00:38:21
Trump, I can tell you if you show Trump a video of a guy getting innocently murdered.
00:38:28
>> Mhm. >> Even his egoomaniac narcissism is like, [ __ ] that's not good for me.
00:38:34
>> He's looking at the video. He may not have any compassion for that man or the
00:38:38
man's family, but he's smart enough to know that ain't good for me. >> Steven Miller's not smart enough to know
00:38:45
that. He's calling the guy an assassin and a domestic terrorist and all this
00:38:50
idiocy. But the point about the illness that people should really focus on is that if he's only got five hours a day
00:38:58
where he's present, the other 19 hours are going to Steven Miller. Don't forget
00:39:04
that. Okay, Stephen Miller is writing the policy. Stephen Miller's talking to
00:39:08
ICE. Stephen Miller's on the phone with Marco Rubio. Uh, you know, you know, the
00:39:13
joke inside the White House is, "Hey, Stephen, we got a question for you. We're going to make you vice roy of
00:39:19
Venezuela, but then when you get down there, where are you going to deport this Venezuelans to?"
00:39:25
Right? That's the joke inside the White House. And of course, Miller looks at
00:39:28
them and he's all pissed and he he doesn't answer them. >> Right? But but but but the point is
00:39:34
Trump's weakness. There's a vacuum and the void is being >> filled by a very
00:39:42
>> a very evil this MF. He couldn't get dog catcher confirmation. This MF, okay? And
00:39:50
he's sitting there. We had a 250year experiment with a republic with real checks and balances. And this guy,
00:39:57
because he was hated in high school and he still wants to take it out on the rest of us, is gonna run rough shot over
00:40:03
all of us because you have willing accompllices, Carara. Uh, and those willing accompllices are the Republicans
00:40:11
and the secondary willing accompllices are the private sector smarty pants billionaires that are afraid of Steven
00:40:19
Miller. How could you guys be afraid of Steven Miller? Are you guys serious? Were you that big of a nerd group in in
00:40:25
the high school cafeteria to be afraid of Steven Miller? >> What are you guys doing?
00:40:30
>> Take on Steven Miller. >> That back to his health. What What do they do when it becomes I mean it is
00:40:35
apparent that he's I've been saying this for a year because I have relatives.
00:40:40
I've seen it like I've seen friends who had Alzheimer's and the signs are rather
00:40:44
significant of some sort of dementia. But what do they do when it gets what is there something that could besides him
00:40:51
falling down which seems inevitable and breaking a hip? Um what what what's the
00:40:56
next thing if if five hours is all you can get? >> Well, listen to just hold them up like
00:41:02
weekend at Bernie. >> Do your do your reporting. You've got excellent sources. We we know that Vance
00:41:07
met with Musk and told Musk, "Please cool out on America's party. Uh you
00:41:12
know, Trump's time is coming. I'm going to be the 48th president likely by
00:41:17
default and all the tech oligarchs will be in there with me. Uh, drop the America's party and and Mus said, "No
00:41:24
problem." >> Uh, you know, they're they're they're all they're all statistitians. They're
00:41:29
looking at 1,000 days >> and they're looking at the a declining mental acuity of a president and they're
00:41:37
saying, "Is it a year from now where people look around and say, "Hey, man,
00:41:40
25th Amendment, in comes Vance. Is it 2 years from now? Can Trump make it to 3 years? I think he'll be alive in 3
00:41:49
years, but the question is, will he be mentally cognitive to the point where it's not overwhelmingly obvious to
00:41:57
everybody how bad it is? And so, I don't know the answer to that, but if I I'm a
00:42:01
betting person, there's a percentage. If you're a tech prolark, you're like,
00:42:06
"Okay, there's a 10 percent to 30% chance that Vance is going to serve out
00:42:11
Trump's term and run for reelection in 28." And and that's also another reason
00:42:18
why they're not fighting as hard as they should be because they're waiting the
00:42:23
thing out, >> right? They're wait because of, you know, actuarial tails is what you're
00:42:28
talking about essentially. Exactly. Scott says, "Biology is undefeated." So
00:42:32
the the let me it's a terrible choice to have to make, but if you could pick
00:42:37
Trump being in office at at a disa in a disabled way versus Vance becoming president, which one would you choose?
00:42:47
>> Okay, let me get the vomit bag out first. Let me blow chow into the vomit
00:42:50
bag. Hold on a second. >> That game you play, which would you >> Okay. All right. Now, let me Now make
00:42:56
the Let me tell you what you got to go advance. Okay. And let me tell you why. Okay.
00:43:00
>> All right. Because Vance has no power and even if he's president of the United
00:43:05
States, he doesn't have a personality cult around him. Okay? And Vance cannot
00:43:12
keep that coalition together. He doesn't understand how to do it. Trump kept Nick
00:43:17
Fuentes, Ben Shapiro, and Tucker Carlson in the same coalition. Imagine that. Okay? and
00:43:26
he because it's the strength of his personality and the personality cult around him as a political figure. Vance
00:43:32
has none of that. Let me give a specific example. When they were fighting over the beef quotas coming in from Argent,
00:43:41
the Argentinian beef quotas and they were fighting over the beef coming in from Argentina. They excoriated Vance in
00:43:49
the Senate. They would never do that to Donald Trump because they're afraid Donald Trump would send out a tweet and
00:43:55
say, "I'm now supporting this person to the far right of Bill Cassidy. I'm no
00:43:59
longer supporting Bill Cassidy, the senator from >> who found balls recently somehow."
00:44:04
>> Well, thank God he him and a few others, but >> very small. >> Okay, but let's You know what? When
00:44:09
someone finds their balls, >> I'll take it. >> I'll take it. Let's give him a [ __ ]
00:44:13
>> one of those leftists that's like, "No, you should never come in." I'm like,
00:44:16
"Come on in, >> Cara. Send him a magnifying glass. the balls will look bigger in the [ __ ]
00:44:21
scope. Okay, let's let's go here. Okay, but but but but honestly, Vance does not
00:44:26
have the power and they will push back on him and they will flex on him. Now, the negative to Vance is he's tied to
00:44:34
some evildoer oligarchs. Okay? And the negative to Vance is that they're going
00:44:38
to pump him with money and they're going to get executive orders from this stuff.
00:44:43
See, the problem with this nation's tech oligarchs, they don't give a [ __ ] They
00:44:48
only care about themselves and their mission quest to make a trillion dollars. If they were a smarter group of
00:44:54
people, they would think about what Henry Ford once said, which is, "I'm
00:44:58
going to make stuff. My workers are going to make stuff that they can afford. I'm going to pay them enough
00:45:03
money so they can afford it. They're going to have a single family house and
00:45:07
a good school system so they don't attack me with tiki torches and pitchforks in my Dearborn Michigan
00:45:14
mansion when I'm eating caviar and carving my filet minan. being an anti-semite, but go ahead.
00:45:19
>> Well, I'm not He was a bad guy, but he understood social engineering.
00:45:24
>> I would agree with you. I think I was What are you guys doing? >> I literally was like, you know,
00:45:30
>> they're coming to get you if you don't start acting more generous. Like I I
00:45:35
literally have had more arguments with them about this. I'm like, you will. I
00:45:38
said, look at They don't read history. Anthony doesn't. They don't read
00:45:41
history. It's really kind of fascinating in a lot of ways. They think self-absorption. They'll get in a a
00:45:47
rocket ship. Anyway, um we're going to go on a quick break and we come back,
00:45:51
Tik Tok strikes a US deal. This is really interesting. Support for the show comes from Vanta.
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00:46:41
Anthony, we're back with more news. Tik Tok has dodged a potential ban and sealed the deal to create new American
00:46:46
entity with investors like Oracle 15% and Silverlake also 15% I believe in the deal. Bite Dance keeps a small stake
00:46:52
around 20% but the algorithm will be retrained on US data to address national security concerns about Chinese control.
00:46:59
Oracle's sort of been doing this for a while by the way. Um and by Oracle I mean Larry Ellison. Uh President Trump
00:47:05
praised the deal and thanked China's President Xi for proving it since he hopes to be remembered by Tik Tok users
00:47:10
for making it happen. But the service is enormously buggy in its first uh couple
00:47:16
days out with users reporting login issues and feed disruptions. Other people see a conspiracy theory in Larry
00:47:21
Ellison trying to shut down anti- uh ICE stuff. Uh I I I am not of that camp. I think it's just buggy and they're having
00:47:29
problems. I I I wouldn't put it past them to do all manner of shitty things,
00:47:33
but in this case um I think it's just this this shift over. um talk about this
00:47:39
because I there are also indications that Tik Tok's user base is declining and that it's uh its momentum is
00:47:45
declining. Um talk a little bit about this because a lot of people are worried about it becoming a propaganda tool. I
00:47:51
am less worried because I feel like it has uh I know I'm going to get a call
00:47:55
from Zenya Muja in a second but I feel like it has a MySpace vibe um to it. But your thoughts it's big it's still
00:48:02
enormous but I don't I think it I think Meta has the momentum with Instagram and
00:48:07
threads etc. Well, well, a couple things. I mean, they they've neutered Tik Tok, okay? So, it would be like
00:48:13
taking your dog to get spayed. You know, the you know, the the verility of Tik Tok is over.
00:48:19
>> Yeah. >> Uh and so, you know, maybe it'll work. Uh and maybe that's a good investment
00:48:24
for these people. I don't know. But >> the discounts, >> but here here's what I do know. I do
00:48:29
know when I was in the White House for that very short period of time, the intelligence stuff was Tik Tok was
00:48:35
weaponsgrade intelligence gathering and it was weaponsgrade crowd propaganda. Crowd
00:48:43
propaganda. 30% of the white males below the age of 21, they don't think the moon
00:48:47
landing happened. You know, 15% of the white males below 30 think Osama bin Laden is a freedom warrior. uh all this
00:48:55
stuff being generated by the algorithm on Tik Tok and all this stuff of fermenting
00:49:02
conspiracy theories which cause people to doubt and distrust their government and cause them to doubt and distrust the
00:49:08
institutions of our democracy. All of that worked to the point where the court said shut it down. The Biden
00:49:14
administration said shut it down and it was getting shut down. But uh some of the owners of Tik Tok had a lot of
00:49:20
money. They gave the money to Donald Trump and Trump defied the court orders, okay? And he kept Tik Tok open. And so
00:49:28
we're sitting here now where I don't think the secret sauce of Tik Tok, despite what they're saying, is going to
00:49:37
get replicated. Okay? It's not going to get transferred. Uh we do know in we do
00:49:41
know when the deal and I believe this is the case because intelligence agencies in this country still have teeth even
00:49:47
though Trump you know I guess is Uber Alice but the intelligence agencies are telling us that Bidance is walled off
00:49:55
from the information now they own 19.9% of the company and they're not going to
00:49:59
get the information from the US anymore. So they have other back doors by the way. Chinese intelligence has other back
00:50:06
doors. So, I'm not worried about Chinese intelligence gathering. Uh, but I think
00:50:10
this has been spayed uh to use a veterinarian analogy. And I think these guys are going to wake up 5 years from
00:50:19
now. It may not be 100% MySpace, but it could be like a Yahoo that was like very
00:50:26
prominent in 1998, is still with us in 2026, but really isn't relevant to the
00:50:33
way it was once relevant. That's my guess. has >> that's my guess with Tik Tok.
00:50:38
>> Yeah, I would agree. I think the energy is dragged out of it and and you know
00:50:42
it's still the question is what's effective as these things and and as much you know I have so much disdain for
00:50:47
Mark Zuckerberg although he has an opportunity see I was thinking this he remember when Gates everyone hated Gates
00:50:53
he was Darth Vader etc. Mark has an opportunity to turn himself around. That's my feeling with these products
00:51:00
that are quite good. Obviously, he had a real a real [ __ ] up on on meta the metaverse and spent a lot of money and
00:51:07
wasted. Here's one thing I love. This guy spent $56 billion on a mistake. And
00:51:12
then all these tech people complain about the government misusing funds. They misuse funds all the time. It's
00:51:17
their own money, but that's fine. Um it's actually it's shareholder money. Um
00:51:22
I I have a if he wanted to Zuckerberg to me especially with Musk behaving like you know a cartoon villain um has an
00:51:30
opportunity especially with these products threads and Instagram etc to really dominate in a way that he already does.
00:51:40
But I don't know. I just I have this notion that there's if he decided to to
00:51:45
stop being such a ridiculous figure uh that he could certainly revive himself and that's not an opening for him. But I
00:51:53
think the hiring of Dina Powell was interesting. I thought, you know, a very smooth operator. Uh as you know, it just
00:52:00
is an interesting time. But Tik Tok, I think, really is, you're right, it's I
00:52:03
think it's it's not on the upswing, that's for sure, when these guys are
00:52:06
buying it. Although, again, they got a discount, so who cares? Well, you know, I'll say I'll say something that people,
00:52:12
you know, it's a little contrarian, so just hear me out for a second, okay? I
00:52:16
think that uh primmaaccia, you put Dana White on the board because you think he's a Trump guy and you're sending a
00:52:22
message to Trump that you're no longer going to bash Trump. You put Dena on the
00:52:25
board, her husband's a senator from Pennsylvania. Uh she was I mean, she was
00:52:29
on the board, but you put her in the in the that presidency vice chairman position. Uh sends a message to the
00:52:35
right. But I'm going to say something about both those people. >> I think they're less Trumpy than people
00:52:42
think. >> Absolutely. Dana has already told people, "I'm done with the politics.
00:52:47
I'll I'll do the UFC fight with Trump on the 14th of June, but I'm done with the
00:52:51
politics." Dana is more of a libertarian. Okay? And Dena, if you really follow her life, she is a Trump
00:53:00
whisperer today, but she's really more of a garden variety. and so was David,
00:53:04
by the way, a Republican. >> So, you know, there could come a moment here one, two, three years out where
00:53:11
Zuckerberg is influenced by these people. >> Okay? And you could be right. And so, so
00:53:17
I think the primmaaccia look is, oh, he's putting Trump lackey in place to calm down Trump.
00:53:22
>> I believe that. I agree with you. >> But they're not Trump lackey if you
00:53:25
really know their personalities. And I listen, I don't I don't know Dana. I I
00:53:29
have friends I've met Dana a few times, but I I know Dana very very well. David
00:53:33
and I know each other very well. Dean and I have worked together uh and you know and she was polite enough to call
00:53:39
me and give me the heads up uh the Sunday night before the job was announced. You know, so she and she's a
00:53:45
special person. I like her and I think that this could be a positive result. >> Just interesting choices. I I was like
00:53:51
everyone's like Trump. I'm like that's not what's happening here. It's it it
00:53:54
isn't. I mean, she just to be clear, uh, Dena left the White House, uh, early in
00:53:59
the first term. Uh, and I think probably Charlottesville and other issues were impactful to her in lots of ways, but I
00:54:06
do think it's a much more complicated. I thought it was an interesting and probably the best move of Zuckerberg to
00:54:12
bring himself back into the light. I guess he wasn't. >> Listen, listen. David Solomon, Lloyd
00:54:18
Blankfine, >> there's a reason why Dena was at the top of the food chain in and around the
00:54:23
hoop. She's got good judgment. She's a very smart person and she also has good
00:54:30
diplomacy skills. Okay. And so let's let's see what happens. I I like her a
00:54:34
great deal and uh and I and I wish her well at that new job. >> But the Tik Tok thing gives to me Meta
00:54:41
the biggest opportunity here to to return itself that although I >> your podcast but can I ask you a
00:54:48
question? >> Sure. Please. Do you mind if I ask you a question because I want to talk about
00:54:52
this? The >> the international version of Tik Tok in my opinion >> is now going to be way more robust than
00:55:00
the American algorithm. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. And so then the question is where
00:55:05
does the real innovation live? Does it live outside of the United States >> along with electric cars and everything
00:55:11
else? Right. >> Where where does it live? Say it again. >> Uh in China. along with electric cars,
00:55:16
along with all. >> That's important for your viewers and listeners to hear that message. You see,
00:55:20
because >> for all of our bravado and all the nonsense and jingoism, take a look at
00:55:26
the Chinese cars. Take a look at the Chinese algorithm. Take a look at the Chinese AI process that's in place. And
00:55:33
the thing that upsets me the most is take a look at the 10, 15, 20, and 25 year plans that China has where the US
00:55:42
government has UGTS. Okay? And you know what that means? Your your your viewers can look it up what it means. We've got
00:55:49
UGTS because we are playing to the cable news cycle as opposed to a 15, 20, or 30-year plan. But I just think it's very
00:55:58
important people to understand that issue, the innovation >> and the excitement.
00:56:03
>> You agree with me, right? >> Yeah. I I I put more to the point. I
00:56:07
think that Trump has done more damage to the technology industry. They've done it
00:56:10
to themselves. Let me just say by their lack of interest in safety, but what's
00:56:14
coming for them? They were so scared of Biden, who was toothless, as far as I could tell.
00:56:19
>> Um said a lot of things, but and maybe we'll, you know, pull back on crypto a
00:56:25
little bit. Um and that's over obviously but writ large I think Trump is more
00:56:32
damaging to the tech industry and his reputation than anything else and has set them back and I think China has
00:56:37
moved into the breach and you know Mark Zuckerber used to always talk about the the the challenge from China and in
00:56:44
affiliating so tightly with Trump I think it really ch it it creates a backlash that's going to be sustained
00:56:51
especially not doing anything about teen girls about kids around chat bots around
00:56:56
everything. I think they are, you know, they're essentially putting themselves
00:57:00
as the bad guy, the baddies, and they don't have to be like there there's an
00:57:04
opportunity for them to, you know, I suppose Carnegie did that as evil as all those people were. They, as you said,
00:57:12
they moved into a more >> no police obliged. They realized that they had to take care of people. But
00:57:17
>> Carol, let me just say this to you and get you to react to it. If I'm a CEO and
00:57:21
I'm spending 0 to 15% of my time thinking about how to handle Trump, 0 to 20% of my time
00:57:27
>> anytime. Yeah. >> Isn't Isn't that less time of me thinking about how to innovate and how
00:57:33
to create plans? >> Do you see the drag on effect of Donald Trump for all these companies?
00:57:38
>> Exactly. That's exactly except for the sort of true believers who are just
00:57:41
terrible people. Right. When this happens, our tech industry has been the leader in terms of the stock market.
00:57:48
Where does this go? because the numbers still stay. Even Tesla who's the who
00:57:52
with which sales numbers are falling off a cliff and obviously that's a meme
00:57:56
stock. So there's nothing to be done about that. But what happens with these
00:58:00
tech numbers um even as they grow higher. >> Well listen, you know the Fed is going
00:58:07
to drive this in my opinion. So if you're if you're telling me and I know
00:58:12
Rick Reer a long time if he's going to become the Fed chair and he's a dollar
00:58:18
realist. Okay, if you read any of his work or look at any of his PowerPoint presentations, but if he's going to cow
00:58:23
to Trump in order to get the job and drop rates, stock market's going higher.
00:58:28
Uh the stock market is not going higher priced than gold. Stock market is not going higher priced than silver, but a
00:58:35
weakening US dollar stock market is going higher. And so, so I'm I'm worried
00:58:40
about the market because of the concentration. I'm worried about the market because Mr. Buffett took $400
00:58:47
billion out of the market when he looks at certain levels of, you know, valuation metrics that he looks at. And
00:58:55
I'm worried about the market because Trump singlehandedly is taking the marginal dollar that used
00:59:03
to flow into America's safe and secure markets and liquid markets where rule of
00:59:08
law was predictable and people now want to punish America. You talk about a boycott, an economic boycott. I'm
00:59:16
talking about a capital boycott. There are people there are so you think the sovereign wealth fund of Norway is like,
00:59:22
"Okay, let me put my incremental dollar into America right now." I'm telling
00:59:26
you, they're not. They're like, "Hey, hey, f you guys. We'll find other places
00:59:30
to go with the money." And uh and look at the tourism numbers are down. Look at
00:59:34
the flights from Europe. Look at the flights from Canada into Florida. >> Tourism is a bigger industry than
00:59:40
manufacturing. Everybody, let's >> Exactly. So, so, so to me, what I'm
00:59:45
worried about is the knock-on effects of Donald Trump. Okay? I I think the tech guys are going to be okay probably for
00:59:54
the next 12 months because of where rates are going. Okay? Unless you're telling me Rick Reer's getting the job
01:00:00
and he turns to you and says something that a traditional Fed chairman would say, which is, "Hey, I'm probably
01:00:05
raising rates 50 basis points." Wait, what? Well, gold's at 5,000. Uh the
01:00:11
dollar is falling. The yen carry trade is faka and I'm going to raise rates here to put the thing back in equipoise.
01:00:19
Okay. See, so the market is not sensing that. And and by the way, Bitcoin is not
01:00:24
doing well because it's not for the market. It's not structural. If you told
01:00:29
me that this is a structural end to the dollar, then Bitcoin would be whackadoodlely rattling. What's
01:00:36
happening right now is it's a shortterm crisis. >> And so that's why people are piling into
01:00:41
gold and silver. Bitcoin is the next step. That's when people say, "Okay,
01:00:46
full-on currency disbasement. The the dollar is now the Zimbabwe dollar. We got to get the hell out of the dollar."
01:00:52
>> I have one of those. >> Yeah. I got Hey, look, I'm a Hey, Kevin,
01:00:55
you better be nice to me. I am a billionaire in Zimbabwe. But my my my point is the money is there to drive the
01:01:01
market higher for the tech people. >> Yeah. If they behave anyway. All right,
01:01:05
Anthony, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay. Uh Anthony, let's hear some wins and fails.
01:01:12
You go first. >> Okay. So, you're not gonna like this one, but uh but the win of the week
01:01:20
>> is actually Elon Musk. And I'm going to tell you why. He shows up with a
01:01:24
haircut. >> He looks like he lost a little bit of weight. They give him 31 minutes of air
01:01:29
time at the World Economic Forum, a place that he disdained and criticized woefully for a decade. His buddy Larry
01:01:36
Frink, who's now the interim chairman, brings him on stage. >> And he was articulate and he explained
01:01:42
the vision for these data centers up in space. And he was the normal Elon and he
01:01:48
was the aspirational Elon. And you could like him or dislike him, but that's the
01:01:53
win for the week. >> All right. The only thing I'm saying is a lot of his predictions he makes them
01:01:58
up. You know that like you could track them at this point. He said it so much. I'm going to have robots in your house
01:02:03
in a year and then 10 years goes. >> I understand that. But but I'm talking
01:02:07
about imagery and you know the world is about imagery. I think he won. Do you want the loss or you want to go for the
01:02:12
win? >> All right. Go ahead. I'll give it to you. I'll give it to you.
01:02:15
>> All right. All right. >> I heard his robots are cool. >> The loss.
01:02:18
>> The loss. The loss is actually Donald Trump. No. Neil Neil Neil Neil Ferguson
01:02:24
said that he won Davos. Uh and he explained this MAGA-esque way that he won Davos, but he actually lost Davos.
01:02:32
Carney Carney won Davos. He would have been number two on the win category for me. Although Carney has a going to have
01:02:38
a harder time because of where he sits north of the American border. But but but but Donald Trump lost this week. He
01:02:45
lost because he looked like an imbecile on Greenland. He lost because the marginal dollar is now moving away from
01:02:52
the United States because of his imbecility and the situation in ICE uh the situation the tragedy in Minnesota.
01:03:00
Trump has lost that too because he's smart enough to know that the public opinion he's -17
01:03:08
on ICE and immigration in the United States and he's got a 36% approval rating but when people ask their friends
01:03:17
about Trump they don't like what's happening to their neighbors and so Trump is losing right now uh and we're
01:03:23
not even addressing his health issues. So that's the win and that's the loss.
01:03:28
Despite the appearance that Trump quote unquote won and all the MAGA people like
01:03:33
Buttlick would say that he won, he did not win. He lost. >> We call him Nutlick, too. I cannot
01:03:41
believe it's the same person that I was talking to at Davos 10 years ago. >> Kevin Hassid is the one that all the
01:03:48
economists called me about saying, "What in the world happened? Did he get a
01:03:50
brain implant or something?" >> Yeah, Kevin I feel more sorry for. But I
01:03:54
mean, Howard knows better, you know. >> Yeah. Well, who knows? He's so thirsty.
01:03:59
It's kind of depressing to watch. >> Um Howard, no matter what you do, as
01:04:03
they say from uh >> Dude, you lost Carmine. No matter what you're going to do, you're going to die.
01:04:09
>> And you're never coming back from this, by the way. You're never coming back
01:04:12
from this. >> You're never coming back. My fail. I'm going to do the other side of the Elon
01:04:16
thing. The EU regulators are investigating X over sexualized AI images. Any reporter who does not ask
01:04:22
him about this in every interview is not doing their jobs. What is happening on X
01:04:26
is repulsive. I have four children. You have children. You have many children. >> Five of them. Yep.
01:04:31
>> Five of them. Uh what is the fact that he has not gotten a hold of this on the
01:04:35
on this one issue? I will continue to pound um these I hope he gets investigated everywhere over these
01:04:42
sexualized AI images uh because they have to stop. they have to stop whether they're non-consensual uh AI images of
01:04:50
women, especially a child pornography is what it is. To be known as a child pornographer is not the image you want.
01:04:57
That's what I would say. So, and I I'm going to take the other side on that. I
01:05:00
think it's very people are sick of this [ __ ] of of this and it's enough. It's
01:05:04
enough with them running rough shot over us. They're not going to sexualize our
01:05:08
children. Um and I'm not a QAnon person. It's just it's so dangerous to do this.
01:05:13
Um, my win you're also not gonna like but I I'm gonna do it. Zoran Mandani
01:05:19
telling New Yorkers to stay home and read Heated Rivalry during a snowstorm I thought was very funny and actually did
01:05:25
a good job on his first snowstorm. He did Anthony, you'll have to say he's
01:05:29
doing he's focusing in on New Yorkers tonight. >> Let me let me tell you. So I I I am a
01:05:33
New Yorker. I am not moving to Florida. I've got my home here in New York. I've
01:05:38
been a New Yorker for 62 years. >> I want him to do well. Okay. Honestly, if he does well, it's better for the
01:05:45
rest of us. >> I agree. I think he handled the snowstorm beautifully. He put out great
01:05:49
information. He did his He knows what his job is right now, which is making New Yorkers have a all New Yorkers have
01:05:55
a better life. I think that's a really >> And if he does that, he'll win real
01:05:58
election and God bless him. I I I >> I just want the city to be safe, you know, for all the obvious reasons.
01:06:05
>> Yeah. I I I love New York City. Anyway, um I'm questioning. Do you have you have
01:06:09
you watched Eater Ronald Rey Anthony? >> I haven't. No. Is that something I need
01:06:13
to do? >> You need to do it. >> Yeah, I've been watching. >> Maybe vaguely uncomfortable for you, but
01:06:17
I think you'll like it. >> No. Why would it be? What do you think? I'm homophobic. It was about
01:06:20
>> No, I don't. But there's a lot of sex happening. >> I don't Baby, I want everybody to be
01:06:26
happy. Okay. >> All right. You should watch Eat Arrival and we'll have a discussion about it.
01:06:29
You are a pleasure to talk to. I always >> I can't be quiet at this point in my
01:06:33
life. It's like my kids say, "Dad, you got to you got to speak up because
01:06:37
>> speak up. You gota you got to help people speak up. I think what I love
01:06:40
about you and Scott is you're helping people speak up. You're providing Yes.
01:06:45
>> a little bit of a ceiling for people to come in under. >> God bless you for that.
01:06:49
>> Absolutely. And God bless the people of Minnesota who are doing that. I'm just
01:06:53
They're not organized protesters. They're not being paid for by George Soros. These are people who are seeing
01:06:57
what's happening in their community and they don't they won't >> Trump would not be responding the way he
01:07:02
responded this morning if that were the case. Gre trust me. He would have gone crazy with evidence related to that.
01:07:08
He's looking at the situation saying, "I'm losing here. I got to pull this
01:07:11
back." >> What a decent group of people and helping their helping their fellow
01:07:15
citizens and Minnesota. >> He's actually breathed life into Tim Walls again. I have to tell you, it's
01:07:21
incredible, which is, you know, we'll see. >> That's one way to look at it.
01:07:25
>> Yeah. Well, it's well, actually, he's handled himself well. And just so you
01:07:28
know, I I urge everyone to listen to my Jacob Fry interview. Very interesting interview. Unfortunately, he did predict
01:07:34
exactly what was going to happen and let's hope it doesn't happen again. And
01:07:38
my heart goes out to the family of Alex Prey and also the family of Renee Good and all the families who are are subject
01:07:44
to brutality uh in this manner. It's >> you can't have your government killing
01:07:49
its own citizens. That is correct. Not form some level of coordinated resistance to that.
01:07:55
>> Yep. Absolutely. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about
01:07:58
business tech or whatever's on your mind. and go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or
01:08:03
call 85551 pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll
01:08:08
be back on Friday. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New
01:08:14
York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod.
01:08:19
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you, Anthony.
01:08:26
>> Thanks, Cara.