00:00:00
You love me. >> I do. You love the dog. >> Sadly, sadly, sadly. It's the worst relationship of my life and my finest uh
00:00:06
>> Oh, come on. >> Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast
00:00:17
Network. I'm Carara Swisser >> and I'm Scott Galloway >> and Oh, nice. Wow, that was really good. And we're
00:00:25
recording this episode in front of a live audience here at the AdWeek House at K can't can't sorry can Lions
00:00:32
International Festival of Creativity. Is that what it's called? All right, fine.
00:00:36
We're doing that. Welcome everybody. >> So, let's just start. Scott, I we haven't seen each other at all. Correct.
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Not even slightly. >> Yeah. No, it's it's a great camp. I mean, we love >> Great for both of us though. We don't
00:00:51
have to see each other. Um I brought my children. We've having a lovely time. They were just in the Mediterranean this
00:00:57
morning. Um, and I've had a lovely time with them except for the heat. But how is your con going can? Sorry. Jesus
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Christ. >> I love it here. Um, but I don't know if you saw that crazy drone show.
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>> Yeah, that was actually the word is, and I can validate this. It's an alien craft. It's an alien
00:01:18
species of species of women who are no joke are abducting guys with enormous dicks.
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Um, so you're safe. But also, just so you know, the spaceship is incredible. >> Oh, yeah.
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>> Hello, France. That took like five seconds to get to a penis joke and a highly complimentary
00:01:43
one to yourself which is inaccurate but nonetheless. >> Don't ask me my nickname in a
00:01:49
fraternity. Just don't just don't. Tripod. >> Yeah. >> Tripod. Anyways, sorry. >> It's tapod.
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>> Tripod is pod. It's like you should you should take intentions or gestures with
00:02:06
the intentions that they're made or that are intended or you know what I'm saying.
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>> Yeah. Okay. No, I don't. All right. Let me just let How is your can gone? How's
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it gone? >> It's great. It's the first time I've left my hotel. >> Okay. All right. He's You're saying
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>> when I was their age, I used to have to work here and like, you know, meet with
00:02:23
Martin Selis. I'd have lunch with him and he'd take calls and just go one minute. One minute. And now it's like
00:02:29
Mr. Beast is the man. Um, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I love I absolutely love it about what's what what do you think are the
00:02:34
big takeaways so far? >> So, uh, hands down the biggest trend is the creator economy. There's 500 here
00:02:42
this year. There were 400 last year. It used to be It's sort of ironic that this
00:02:48
is meant to be a gathering. It's 13,000 people from 90 countries. It's meant to be a gathering to celebrate the
00:02:53
industry, but the industry hasn't yet recognized they're no longer the protagonist. And that the industry if
00:02:58
you think of it the means of production talent used to command 10 or 15% of the total revenue because in between there
00:03:05
were these means of production or moes an ad agency uh distribution a studio makeup unions a cable going into
00:03:14
people's homes and now people with these few platforms that command a disproportionate margin they do really
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well but you have thousands it's no longer Madison Avenue it's a bunch of studios and the celebrities here are no
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longer When I used to come here, Maurice Levy, Martin Surell, John Ren, they own
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the closet. >> Now it's some creator who's talking about food, you know. So, it's it really
00:03:37
has there's a distribution from institutions to individuals. Uh AI last year was what do we do with AI? Now,
00:03:45
it's how do we organize our company around AI? How do we get an ROI there? I think there's been people have come to
00:03:52
the conclusion that AI is all chip and no salsa and that creativity has never been more important. Where social media
00:04:00
takes people to the extremes, AI takes everyone to the middle and it's very moderated and so creativity has never
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been more important. Remember AI was going to produce commercials. There's more designers now at IBM as a
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percentage of their employment and creatives than there was last year. So creativity appears.
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>> I have noticed the sort of fall off in the AI dementia that was here last year.
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I mean, it's really I mean, it's that's everywhere actually when every everyone's sort of coming to the
00:04:24
conclusion that they're not really clear what efficacy this stuff has instead of
00:04:28
having to I mean, the drone show did do AI and it was it was not AI, it was it wasn't artificial intelligence. It was
00:04:36
something else. They had another word. Uh, what it was >> art and art and intelligence instead of
00:04:42
artificial intelligence. >> Yeah. And the other and the other big trend is sports.
00:04:48
>> Yeah. Yeah, there wasn't a sport beach here. Sport really is the cultural religion now. And it's it's one of the I
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mean the biggest I think the two biggest stories taking place right now, one's positive and one's negative. And the
00:04:59
things we'll be talking about two weeks, I like to predict what'll be the biggest
00:05:02
business stories that are happening. The biggest cultural story would be the coming together that basically the World
00:05:08
Cup is doing what the UN was supposed to do. And these wonderful creators and this content that makes us feel better
00:05:14
about the world when we really needed it. We needed to feel better about America and Waffle House and how
00:05:18
wonderful Norwegians and the Scottish are. Go team Scotland against Brazil. It could happen tomorrow night.
00:05:23
>> Um, that is the best cultural story unfolding right now. The biggest story that will that's taking place right now.
00:05:32
You're going to see that the predictions markets have a scary [ __ ] amount of betting on the World Cup right now,
00:05:38
mostly from young men whose prefrontal cortisees is very immature and are prone to addiction. I think that's the biggest
00:05:43
story playing out right now. You're going to see that one-third twothirds of young men in the United States bet on
00:05:50
the World Cup and you're going to see Poly Market and Khi basically show the kind of numbers that get Goldman and JP
00:05:57
Morgan saying we're ready to go public. That's the biggest story. >> We did see of course Zuckerberg waiting
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into it. >> He's going to start a predictions market. >> He is which is called Arena which I mean
00:06:06
did he ever have an idea he thought of himself that he didn't the thieve? >> Yeah, but that's the key to shareholder
00:06:12
value. the innovator, the first iPod, the first computer, the first social media network. Who's on MySpace? I mean,
00:06:18
it's it's the second mouse that gets the cheese. Apple's >> Well, do you do you imagine? Because he
00:06:24
tried it in a number of ways. They tried to do a dating service. Do you remember
00:06:27
the Facebook dating service that >> didn't go anywhere or the Facebook this, the Facebook that? Is this a good area?
00:06:34
you're just it's an important area right now, but they're also under enormous scrutiny by even in the by US standards,
00:06:41
they're under enormous scrutiny in the US. All these markets, they're getting push back all across the world from a
00:06:47
regulatory point of view. And then Mark, whose reputation is just even this week
00:06:53
got even more tarnished. We talked about it on the last episode because Trump essentially called him a sucker. Um he
00:07:00
did. He did essentially um and was accurate. Um, and do you think it's a great time to wade into this area for a
00:07:08
company like Facebook or do you think these are inevitable companies that these that are happening?
00:07:13
>> Yeah, I think so. If I were the head of corporate development at Meta, I would
00:07:16
take a 2 to 3% dilution and take a 40 to$60 billion flyer on either Ky or Poly Market as opposed to trying to compete
00:07:24
with them and go from letter A to F. But we use the term innovation really promiscuously in terms of shareholder
00:07:32
value. It's not the innovator. The innovator and the pioneers get mud on their face and arrows on their back.
00:07:36
It's the number two. Apple has never invented anything. What they do is they come in and they commercialize it and
00:07:41
they do a better job of it. Uh if I were Meta and I'm not and I would be rushing
00:07:46
to get things done before a Democrat takes the White House and actually starts trying to break up companies,
00:07:51
which is what we need to bring affordability down as the rents being charged on advertisers and consumers and
00:07:56
parents gets higher and higher as we let these companies consolidate with no regulation.
00:08:01
But I would I would be looking at everything and if I wanted to get into that market, I would pick up one of
00:08:06
those two players for 20 to 60 billion, which at this point would be a minor dilution.
00:08:12
>> Is it a particularly good thing for their corporate image to go into an area that's under it? It's clearly going to
00:08:17
be under attack in the next two years. >> I don't think they give a [ __ ] I don't
00:08:20
think they're worried about their image. >> Yeah, I don't. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, as we sit
00:08:25
here, there's a bunch of 14-year-old girls self- cutting because of Cheryl Samberg's business model.
00:08:30
>> And too much. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so I don't I don't I think they're I think they're very willing to endure
00:08:38
hits to their image. I don't think that's their first priority. >> So, they will go, this is an area they
00:08:42
should go into. >> Their image, the only thing that [ __ ] matters is Mark Zuckerberg keeps
00:08:45
delivering unbelievable shareholder returns. That's the only image that matters in a capitalist America with no
00:08:50
regulation. And we can sit here and talk about purity tests. No one gives a [ __ ]
00:08:54
>> All right. Well, in Europe, let me just let they're trying to break up uh US big
00:08:58
tech. Here in France, the budget minister called for a country to break free of American systems. Sort of on
00:09:03
trend with the Europeans feeling the American century is over, which I think is very clear. They've stepped up in
00:09:09
Ukraine. They've sort of pulled away from the US. You have Georgia Maloney every day insulting Trump, which is
00:09:15
really enjoyable. Um uh and the EU just rolled out a new sovereignty package to boost homegrown tech. A very difficult
00:09:22
thing to do. Google, Microsoft, and Amazon control 70% of Europe's cloud market and 80% of European software
00:09:28
spend goes to US companies. Um you know, it also has to deal with these climate goals that they have in data center. Uh
00:09:36
a lobbyist say European's power grid isn't ready to fuel advanced AI infrastructure. We'll need to lean on
00:09:41
new gas plants to stay competitive, which is a big issue in the United States. and actually gaining enormous
00:09:46
amount of traction with voters 100%. Um, Europe's biggest techs uh want to say in
00:09:52
shaping EU policy, a new group called the European Tech Creators is pushing the EU to cut red tape, loosen merger
00:09:58
rules the way the US and China cut back theirs. Um, is that something you see happening? This is not the direction
00:10:04
Europe had gone in and has had much less success. Obviously, all these US companies, whether it's Open AI or or or
00:10:12
Anthropic, are all US all the latest basket of them, whether they're going to make it or not, are US companies.
00:10:21
>> Yeah. So, America used to be the uncle who showed up who was obnoxious. He showed up to the European, you know,
00:10:27
picnic. Obnoxious, but nice. Paid for your kids tuition. Generally, heart was in the right place. Now, the uncle's
00:10:33
showing up. He's on meth and he's doing his karate moves and he's hitting on and he's hitting on underage girls at
00:10:38
the park. I mean, we are we have become so unreliable and quite frankly just gross that the EU has finally come to
00:10:45
the realization we can't count on this guy any longer. >> And it can go one of two ways. The good
00:10:51
way is that they figure out a way. Germany or I think 30 40% debt to GDP. Uh Netherlands, they need to probably go
00:11:00
into some deficit spending, ramp up their technology investment in their own military, support their own companies.
00:11:05
Mistral vertical aerospace. Daniel E is in a big investor in a European defense company. I think that would be good. If
00:11:11
they use this as yet another excuse to slow down their thoroughbreds with overregulation, which is what Europe
00:11:17
does, you'll great be righteous, worried about the environment and we'll kick your ass from a shareholder standpoint.
00:11:24
And that's the story of Europe. Thoughtful regulation that gets in the way of every company killing it. And
00:11:31
America makes the mistake of underregulating. Europe makes the mistake of overregulating and you'd
00:11:37
rather be the former because then you have the capital and the strength to fund a navy when you do get a good
00:11:43
leader in place. Economic growth, I mean it's kind of everything. You have to have the UK has its heart in the right
00:11:51
place, super smart, and they can't do any of the [ __ ] because the economy is not growing. So there's a medium if they
00:11:57
use it as an excuse to support to force companies to purchase their own models support Europeanborn native internet
00:12:05
e-commerce AI companies defense companies great if they use it as yet another excuse to increase regulation
00:12:13
where talented entrepreneurs and capital just shrug their arms in the >> Is it even possible at this point
00:12:18
because these companies are sort of barreling to IPOs despite the fact that for example SpaceX has really taken yet
00:12:24
another fall. We talked on Monday about this, but it took a it took a decent fall again.
00:12:28
>> It's still up from the IPO. It's trading at 120 times revenues. We kill for their
00:12:33
problems. >> Yeah, I get that. But do you see it um is there a way to catch up in any way
00:12:39
for other parts of the world to do so? or are these the companies that will >> Well, Europe Europe has some great
00:12:46
companies and I'm actually in my prediction I'm going to talk about I think the hottest IPO of the digital of
00:12:52
this month is actually going to be a European company and I'll talk about that on predictions. Look, they have
00:12:57
some they have some great companies. The I do think there's going to be a lot of
00:13:02
talent. The team with the best players wins and I think you're going to see a trend
00:13:06
where the most talented people in Europe used to have one goal. Get out. It's like my homeland or my father's
00:13:13
homeland, Scotland. My dad used to joke, what are the most talented people in Scotland have in common? They left. And
00:13:18
I do think that the rivers of flow of human capital benefit Europe right now. I think there's a lot of people are
00:13:24
thinking, you know what, maybe I'll put off going to the Bay Area. Maybe I'll put off going to the Gulf. Uh moving the
00:13:30
most the youngest, talented, most aggressive, ambitious people used to get to the biggest city in their nation,
00:13:35
then to London, then to San Francisco or New York. I think a lot of human capital
00:13:39
and financial capital is going to come back to Europe because of lifestyle. And two, because Europe has been left for
00:13:45
dead, the valuations are really low. >> So they're low. So you can take advantage of this, but they've got to
00:13:50
have a government that gets out of the way in some fashion. Although not to the extent that ours does, presumably
00:13:56
>> there's got to be a sweet spot. We've gone too far to free markets. The EU is
00:14:01
way too over. I mean, the European Union, it's not a union. And it's a disunion where nobody has control but
00:14:06
everyone has veto authority, >> right? >> And it creates just it supposedly takes about there's a
00:14:12
measure of how long it takes to start a company to get all the filings, the permits, hire people. It takes 6 weeks
00:14:18
in the US. Supposedly it takes 16 months in France. I mean that's just a problem,
00:14:23
right? So I I think there's a sweet spot. Although I I I do think in the US there is push back coming whether it's
00:14:29
you know Elon Musk threatening Roana over normal statements about USAD to what's what happened in New York mani
00:14:37
there's a real push against a lot of this billionaire power unfettered capitalism that's coming I think hard
00:14:44
and fast and they're starting to win elections they're starting to have have a say and you know you wouldn't normally
00:14:50
see a politician like Roana push back against Elon Musk at this point given well he's Maybe he's not a trillionaire
00:14:56
right now. He came down to 996 billion dollars. Um, which I feel bad for the guy. Um, but one of the things
00:15:05
that I do see coming is a massive amount of payback to these guys. I just see it.
00:15:10
I see it everywhere you go. And I think they're not going to be able to attack Trump in the same way they might like
00:15:15
to, but this is going to be their vehicle of attack is these guys as as and and these companies are going to be
00:15:21
in a world of hurt. And you'll see you're seeing push back from Disney to the Trump administration. You're seeing
00:15:26
push back from politicians like Row. You're seeing you're seeing push back all over the place by average citizens
00:15:33
across and you're seeing winning by Democratic socialists around this billionaire issue. Um that I think is
00:15:40
really growing in a way that is significant. And when the Democrats come back, if it's if they sort of shove the
00:15:45
old Democratic establishment to the side, there's, you know, a lot of the Republicans or a lot of the tech people
00:15:51
don't think there's going to be payback, but I do feel like there probably is. >> I, you know, I hope so. I I think the I
00:15:58
think since the 80s, America has been obsessed with how to create wealth. >> I think the next 10 years, the dominant
00:16:05
conversation is going to be what do you do with wealth? Yeah. And what are the expectations of wealth? and tax policy.
00:16:12
I mean, we talk about rich versus poor. I don't think that's right. I've talked a lot about young versus old. I'm not
00:16:18
sure that's right. I think the conversation is going to be around entrance versus incumbents. If you
00:16:22
already own assets, if you already have a company that's weaponized regulation, if you already own a home, if you
00:16:28
already have a college degree, there's been this unhealthy zeitgeist among the incumbents to create scarcity such that
00:16:35
entrance can't get a house, can't get a college degree, can't get out of the crib and get customers because the
00:16:41
incumbents have weaponized government to basically make it impossible for entrance.
00:16:46
>> And the entrance, who typically are younger, middle class, are just fed up. Although it was interesting, there's an
00:16:51
interesting story in the New York Times this week. It was a column that I thought was great talking about, let me
00:16:55
be more educated than you are, Socrates. Um, and what was happening in >> He's playing tonight at Spotify now.
00:17:06
>> You love me. >> I do. You love the sadly. Sadly, sadly, it's the worst relationship of my life
00:17:11
and my finest. Uh, >> come on. >> No, it's true. It's true. I do. I have weird affection. Someone literally came
00:17:17
up to me. >> I'm so your bottom. This is what's happened to me here. >> Everyone laughs and I go, "Wait, am I
00:17:23
supposed to laugh? >> You need to stop objectifying me, Scott." >> Okay. >> Um, someone came up to me last night and
00:17:29
literally just went like this, >> Scott, how do you do it? And I was like, I I like him.
00:17:40
>> Like, so do I. That woman said, so do I. It was weird, but >> Was it Emily Roakoski? You can be
00:17:45
honest. >> No. Yeah, >> she's been asking about me, right? >> Never in your life will that ever
00:17:52
happen. >> She's playing that game, right? >> You know what? >> I'm going to do something about her.
00:17:55
>> She's playing that game, right? >> No, she's she's probably called security on you at this point. Anyway, in any
00:18:00
case, the point I was making was that the the they had these issues back in ancient times where the where the
00:18:06
oligarchs and the the the the regular people, the the the equality got out of control in a way that was really
00:18:14
significant. And that's exactly when you had push backs and push backs and push from both sides. And I think we are
00:18:20
absolutely at that time. And I don't think it's particularly helpful to say, you know, eat the rich, but there is a
00:18:27
real movement in our country that is significant. You again, New York elections are New York elections, but it
00:18:33
says something um when there's push back. So, we'll see what happens. Um I I'm not worried for them, but they're
00:18:39
going to have to uh armorplate their Teslas at some point if it starts to get ugly. And there is going to be an ugly
00:18:44
moment unfortunately for them. And I think it's just it's inevitable if they continue to sort of take everything and
00:18:52
damage everything in the thing. >> Look, I that's a nice story. I I hope it comes true. I hope we see the
00:18:57
manifestation of that at the ballot box. But the reality is I think Donald Trump
00:19:01
is going to sleep well and die of Mara Lago and and I think Bezos and all these guys are going to have really nice
00:19:07
lives. And I think we've just got to decide what we want moving forward. But the notion that they're going to pay a
00:19:13
price for this, money buys you a lot of protection. >> Well, it does. We'll have to see what
00:19:17
happens. But I'm I'm really interested in US elections coming up. All right, let's take a quick break. We come back,
00:19:21
we'll talk about Hollywood's record-breaking year. Support for this show comes from Coher.
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Coher. To learn more, visit cohhere.com/vox. Scott, we're back. We're live at AdWeek
00:20:43
House at Con Lions. Um, we're officially uh we're officially in the summer movie season and Hollywood is
00:20:54
hitting new heights, which is really interesting. Toy Story 5 just opened to $312 million globally. Total domestic
00:21:01
box office year is estimated 4.46 billion, the highest since 2019. It's recovered. It is not.
00:21:06
>> And you predicted this. >> Yes, I did. Lots of movies brought in the big bucks. Project Hail Mary,
00:21:11
Michael, The Devil Wears Prada, which I am starring in. Plus, lowbudget horror movies, Back Rooms, and Obsession, and
00:21:17
they're becoming blockbusters, but they're it's the first movie since ET where the where the box office is moved
00:21:23
up. And I noted my son went to see both these movies, and he's not gone to the movies since I took him to Toy Story 3,
00:21:30
I think, at that point. um talk about this trend because pe these theaters these movie it's actual
00:21:36
mover movie movie theater experience it it's a range of movies it's not these these big big blockbuster it's not an
00:21:43
Avenger movie it's it's though there's one of those coming it's a lot of um I would say smaller movies in a lot of
00:21:50
ways and they seem to have been really spurring people not just to go to the movies and of course story 5 is five is
00:21:57
the fifth one and it's apparently why it's the fifth >> the fifth Yes. George Story 5. Yes.
00:22:05
Anyway, um what what do you uh what do you make of this and how right was I about this situation?
00:22:13
>> You called this um >> you went like this. That's ridiculous. >> Well, the question is is it a is it a
00:22:18
trend or is it a dead cap bounce? So, look, the movie industry to be fair, some of the best performing stocks in
00:22:23
media are actually theater stocks. Cinemark and IMAX are up. theaters at 40 and 45% respectively in the last 12
00:22:30
months. The theater business is becoming like airlines. There's Southwest and JetBlue which is streaming. That's
00:22:37
Netflix serves you content for 30 cents an hour. That's an incredible deal. And then there's Emirates and Qatar Airlines
00:22:46
in Singapore. That's IMAX. That's an incredible experience. Uh the guys in the middle like AMC or Delta United are
00:22:54
getting crushed. So people are willing to spend 20 or 30 or 40 bucks to go to IMAX or have a really like I love IPIC
00:23:01
although that just went bankrupt but they want an experience or they just want 30 cents an hour and reasonably
00:23:06
good content but it the I mean the other biggest trend culturally right now is IRL coming out of co people probably
00:23:14
lost somebody >> uh people do have disposable income the economy has been fairly strong and
00:23:20
people want to get out and touch grass and and I think they're just having a a really healthy gag reflex over
00:23:26
isolation. >> Yeah, I do think there's a gag reflex over social media and everything else.
00:23:30
all the it's really it's interesting Gary Vaynerchuk here now says analog is in uh versus which I was like no [ __ ]
00:23:37
Sherlock it's really but the idea of of the the idea that this pushing away I have long thought that social media is
00:23:44
going to decline rather precipitously especially among young people and become more of a you know because you're
00:23:50
starting to see tech companies like Google just invested in A24 which I thought was in everyone lost their minds
00:23:56
in Hollywood they thought they were going to pull their data I think they're using it to try to figure about how to
00:24:00
do better storyboarding, how to use AI, and how to figure out how to change the movie making process, which isn't such a
00:24:07
bad idea to use those tools. Although Hollywood does have a gag reflex to all of these things in favor of these in
00:24:15
real life cinema experiences. Yeah, I think both can be true because if you look at I don't understand I
00:24:24
people go on Instagram to find out about a yogurt store they'll spend 40 minutes
00:24:29
in line for. So that's a combination of the two things. The downside to the IRL trend is the following and that is I
00:24:37
mean there's a couple things. You're about to see tables in Mkos and Aitha increase 40 50% of price this summer
00:24:46
because there's about to be 12,000 new millionaires in the Bay Area through Anthropic, SpaceX, and Open AI. And if
00:24:52
you're a 36-year-old who got a CS degree from Carnegie Melon, quite frankly, haven't had, you know, you weren't
00:24:58
didn't have the most social capital in high school, quite frankly. and you wake up and you've been broke and you've been
00:25:04
paying your student loans and you wake up after the IPO and you're worth $11 million. You're not going to Disneyland.
00:25:09
You're going to aa and you're seeing black coffee. The flush of douchebag money about to roll over about to roll
00:25:17
over Europe this summer is going to be just frightening. And the other thing that's really kind of sad about this is
00:25:25
the reason why these concerts and these music festivals can charge 2, three, five grand for VIP tickets is because 20
00:25:32
and 30omes, when I was 20ome and 30ome, you know what I was doing with all my money? I was saving for a house. And I
00:25:38
worry that 20 and 30omes have just stopped saving for a house. They've just given up. They're like, "Okay, we're not
00:25:45
going to save 200 grand for a house. Houses are $2 million homes are $2 million. I'm going to Coachella.
00:25:50
>> Yeah, the smaller houses are a million. >> Yeah. >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Your point being
00:25:57
>> Oh, my Well, these were just fascinating trends about in real life, Cara. >> All right. Okay. Um, in any case, what
00:26:04
does that mean? Because one of, >> you know, I exposed myself to you emotionally and you jab.
00:26:08
>> Yes, I do. >> You jab. >> I was still on douchebags with money in a visa because you're the only person I
00:26:14
know that goes to a visa. Um but um he's having a fantasy moment. I pay for everything.
00:26:21
>> What do you say to like a >> I love drugs. I love alcohol. >> We're going to get questions from you
00:26:25
all. >> Who would want to roll with me in a beast? Seriously, >> that's right. Meet you there.
00:26:31
>> Yeah, I absolutely would not. Um so >> she literally texts me like, "Where are
00:26:37
you? >> Where are you? What are you doing? Where are you? What are you doing?" >> No, I said I'm downstairs
00:26:42
and I will not be coming upstairs. my favorite actress. >> He just made a Paris Hilton joke that
00:26:48
was gross. Just try not to ignore it. So, um >> seen that movie 10 12 times. >> Okay. All right. In any case, um is I
00:26:56
think a lot of the tech companies really are moving into media, not necessarily in the nefarious ways that they are also
00:27:02
moving into media. But Instagram wants a spot in your streaming lineup. The app is testing horizontal video, long form
00:27:08
content, episodic series, which I think is really interesting. I just met with some Instagram people recently in
00:27:14
they're also reaching out to creators which they were doing in my case to start making not micro dramas but what
00:27:19
what what is the stuff you want to make short serialized episodes of 1 to 3 minutes each which was a trend many
00:27:26
moons ago and didn't really work out if you recall a bunch of creators were trying to do that and obviously Quibby
00:27:32
was the other one is this sort of back again do you think it'll succeed at this point
00:27:37
>> well the clip economy whatever you want to call it huge trend And I I don't know
00:27:42
about you, I'm absolutely I hate to admit it, I'm absolutely addicted to Instagram reels and it's I think it's
00:27:47
become my primary source of information. >> Me, too. Yeah. >> Uh I think the algorithm is incredible.
00:27:52
>> So, do you think they can take it to the next step to create mini dramas? Because
00:27:56
it didn't work the first several times. This is the third. >> I just don't think you ever I hate to
00:28:00
say that. I just don't think you ever bet against Mark Zuckerberg. I I'm I find I used to think Tik Tok was going
00:28:05
to disrupt meta. Now I find myself spending less time I don't know about you. This is false marketing on Tik Tok
00:28:10
and more time on reals. I think they'd look at it and said I think Mark says he looks at him and says that's amazing.
00:28:17
Steal it. Steal it and then make it better and then point our billion and a half person fire hose at it. And
00:28:24
>> so if you're marketers here, where do you start to point stuff at entertainment? It's there, right? It
00:28:29
continues to be there. That's going to be entertainment. It's a hard one because any business
00:28:36
dependent upon Alphabet, unless you're the creator, if you try and get in the middle, your margin is their
00:28:42
opportunity. 10 years ago, some of the biggest firms here and houses were SEO companies. And then Alphabet said the
00:28:50
whole point of our technology is we eventually make you obsolete. So, I I'm very reticent. uh you know if you're a
00:28:58
creator and you can displace Comcast or ABC or A&E with with one of these platforms that will give you a greater
00:29:06
share revenue. I think YouTube does that pretty well. >> Yep. >> But any business banking on
00:29:12
>> um you're interviewing Meredith uh Levin tonight, the CEO of New York Times. Uh I
00:29:17
don't know if you know this host on the port of the New York Times. >> Um but we owned something called
00:29:22
about.com and it was worth a billion dollars. And then one night our revenues were down 60%. Because Google did some
00:29:28
panda thing and basically just crushed our traffic. So a decent test anyone should ask themselves is what percentage
00:29:35
of our revenue and margin is dependent upon one of these platforms because they'll they'll keep you in business
00:29:41
just long enough until you get real margin and then they'll come for you. So it anyways I'm I'm droning on here. I
00:29:47
think it's situational but I think these guys are basically in the business of just finding except for the creators.
00:29:53
It's they they you know they do some there but I wouldn't want to be in a business focused ever on these platforms
00:29:59
>> on these platforms but that's exactly where it's going. This is the first time
00:30:01
I've thought about creating stuff not you know I just did this television show but now I'm thinking how would I do it
00:30:07
not with any of the regular TV entities like what would be the way to make say if we decide to make a pivot television
00:30:15
show for example what is a television show going forward and that's something I'm thinking about a lot
00:30:20
>> well it would be on yeah you're right it would be on YouTube with clips and but
00:30:25
if you look at why is podcasting drawing so much talent right now and growing so
00:30:29
fast >> it's not your looks So go ahead. >> When we first started our >> an easy one,
00:30:36
>> so I'm very >> That was a layup. So when we um started this podcast almost 8 n years ago, um
00:30:44
and I'm very transparent about economics. I think rich people not talking about their money is nothing but
00:30:48
an effort to suppress the middle and the lower class. Rich people talk about their money all the [ __ ] time. Start
00:30:52
talking about money. Anyway, um when I first started on Pivot, I got 15% of the revenue because the means of production,
00:31:00
a company with capital and a studio, I used to go into that lame studio on Broad Street and they knew how to do
00:31:06
podcasts and it was technology and union people and and so the means of production, whether it's MSNBC or CNN or
00:31:13
podcast back then meant that the talent got 15%. You probably got more. You were
00:31:18
the star. But now talent on podcast gets 70%. Cuz the means of production just doesn't have the power.
00:31:24
>> Yeah. >> That's effectively the arbitrage that's taking place across all media is the
00:31:29
means of production is being arbitrageed and getting out of the getting people out of the middle such that creators
00:31:35
with great content and the end consumer can enjoy. Podcasts are 80% of a television show for 5% of the production
00:31:42
cost. Absolutely. >> So there's opportunity for advertisers and creators. And the example I always
00:31:47
use is Cole Bear. 60 million in revenue, 100 million in costs. A band, a theater,
00:31:52
unions everywhere, makeup artists, five people on the guest booking team. It made60 million was not economic. He's
00:31:59
going to go to a podcast. He'll take he'll six people will make it onto the podcast arc. He'll do 20 million his
00:32:05
first year and it'll cost 4 million to produce. So that's a pretty good deal for Stephen.
00:32:10
>> Yeah, if that Absolutely. All right, we're going to go on a quick break. We have one more thing to talk about um
00:32:15
when we're back. Support for this show comes from Non. Business trips are great. The baggage that comes with them
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But when I do go out and know I'm going to be drinking, I start the night with Zbiotics. And I was doing this before
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and use the code pivot at checkout for 15% off. Okay, Scott, we're back with more news. Um, the World Cup right now,
00:34:10
um, as you said, there's going to be a lot of gambling and markets are worry, but what do you imagine the the effect
00:34:17
of World Cup will be going forward? What do what is your thoughts on where where
00:34:22
what what what are the takeaways from doing that? Because it really is, I think, the most important, as you said,
00:34:27
economic story right now across the globe. >> Yeah, I I I don't have any real insight
00:34:32
other than what I said. I think I think I think the world and the west needed a reason to like each other again and
00:34:39
recognize that Americans distinct of our leadership are an interesting, loving, kind people with really fattening but
00:34:47
wonderful food and that Europeans and the all these nations have incredible cultures and they bring a little taste
00:34:54
of that culture. you're going to see the prices of teams go up and even I go back
00:34:58
to the wealth creation of these these companies that just went public that probably took the price of these
00:35:03
companies going up because sex drives everything and if you're a 45-year-old who quite frankly never got laid in high
00:35:09
school you're trying to figure out a way to become the sexist man in Cleveland and the way you do that is by buying the
00:35:13
Cleveland Browns and so all of a sudden there are a ton of people who want to own sports teams right now that have
00:35:20
capital so you just saw the price of every shitty football, cricket team, whatever, go up 20, 30%. SpaceX up went
00:35:29
up up 20%, the price of most sports teams globally went up 30 or 40 because you're going to have midlife crisis
00:35:36
money, which is irrational, chasing trophy assets. >> Very excellent. All right, last thing
00:35:40
prediction and then we'll get questions from the audience. >> The my prediction is the following. The
00:35:45
biggest IPO of this the biggest tech IPO of this month in terms of first day pop
00:35:51
is not SpaceX. It's actually a European tech media company that's pricing next week. Does any This is a test. Any
00:35:58
guesses? >> Bending Spoons. >> Bending Spoons. Bending Spoons is essentially the Berkshire Hathaway of
00:36:05
beloved but forgotten internet brands. Uh Evernote, Eventbrite, AOL, um >> Vimeo, We Transfer,
00:36:15
>> Meetup, all of these companies that were supposed to be the next Airbnb or >> they were all the unicorns of the year.
00:36:21
all the unicorns, super fat, and then uh this company out of Italy comes and buys
00:36:26
them, consolidates the back end, which is a polite way of saying cuts costs dramatically, increases their prices. A
00:36:33
lot of these companies have very strong margin power and um uh consumer loyalty.
00:36:39
Uh Q1 2025, 20 uh what was it? um 270 million 120 million losses this quarter, 625 million, 28 million in
00:36:54
profits. They're getting a ton of momentum. It's essentially, you know, >> it's orphans brought together in one.
00:37:01
>> It's it's it's orphaned internet companies with a lot of margin power that have been forgotten and they're
00:37:06
rolling it up. And this is a call back to the most profitable disruptive company that used to own can. This is a
00:37:13
call back to WPP that used to buy companies for seven times EBIDA uh cut costs on the back end uh reduce keyman
00:37:21
risk so to speak and then take it to the public markets at 12 times EBIDA. I think this is an incredible company.
00:37:28
It's out of Italy which is interesting. Really good human capital. And there's about a thousand of these companies that
00:37:34
never quite made it across the goal line. And the most fascinating thing about their numbers is 88% of their
00:37:39
revenue is recurring revenue. All of these companies are subscription. So basically, this is SAS meets Berkshire
00:37:47
Hathaway. I like the fact that it's out of Italy. I like the fact that it's not AI. Uh
00:37:53
>> so it's just a simple cleanup. >> Two and a half billion. Two and a half million in revenues. It'll go out at 7
00:37:58
to eight times revenues. I think this company will have the largest pop of any internet tech IPO of of the month.
00:38:05
That's pricing next week. >> It's a classic is what's happening here. Well, it's it's it's essentially there's
00:38:11
a value in these brands. They still have very loyal audiences. Yeah. And they were also they also grew up in a time
00:38:18
where capital is cheap. So, quite frankly, there's a lot of fat to cut. >> And these this these guys are executing
00:38:25
like crazy. And once they have a public stock, think about how big the list is of companies that were once hot and
00:38:31
they're still good companies. Yeah. >> And they spent billions of dollars of venture capital aggregating audiences.
00:38:36
>> Yeah. like Red Envelope for example. >> Oh, sorry. >> Why are you so hostile?
00:38:43
>> Jesus Christ. >> No, that was a good company. I sort of got >> Yeah, thanks for that.
00:38:46
>> It was it was a good idea. >> You can have the kids every other weekend. So, >> no, but there are a lot of value in a
00:38:52
lot of these companies. >> Anyway, my prediction is the biggest IPO in terms of first day pop is going to be
00:38:57
a European the Bergkshire Hathaway forgotten internet brands and that's this company called Bending Spoons that
00:39:03
I had not heard of until two weeks ago. I'm kind of fascinated with it. >> Anyway, all right, questions from the
00:39:08
audience. Hi, Kim McKenzie from Ladies to Strategize. Um, so you guys often talk about Poly Market.
00:39:16
>> Mhm. >> Do you think that it's going to be used as a legitimate polling data and
00:39:20
predictions for the new US election and should it legitimate? How so? I mean, people are on it, so you can't really
00:39:26
stop it. I I think people pay it. It's one of these things during elections. US people go and stare at them for a minute
00:39:33
and then they go away from them. I think it's being used more as opposed to going
00:39:37
to all the there was a bunch of others that people would go to all the different polling accumulation sites. I
00:39:42
think Scott's been very negative on polling. I think a lot of these prediction markets are easily gamed and
00:39:47
so I worry about their their their reality, but they often do reflect sentiment, right? So I think it's just
00:39:54
one of those other signals you have to get, but I definitely pay attention to them more than I should and I know
00:40:00
they're gamed in some fashion. I think they're also easily manipulated by a wealthy person, say named Elon Musk, who
00:40:07
has enormous amounts of funds that he's going to put towards the midterms to create all manner of confusion. And so
00:40:13
that's the real danger in it. I'm not sure voters pay attention to it. Like I just don't I don't know if voters spend
00:40:20
a lot of time. I think a lot of the pundit class certainly does. >> Uh I use Cali all the time for and I
00:40:26
find I think polling firms that are non-qualitative are basically out of business. Uh Khi has never gotten an
00:40:33
interest rate cut wrong. They have predicted every single Fed action 100%. Um I totally rely on the prediction
00:40:42
market, specifically KHI for because there's something about pundits saying what they think is going to happen and
00:40:47
then looking at where people actually put money that if you really want to know how someone feels, see where
00:40:53
they're spending their money. >> Uh so I think they're I think they are in I'm fascinated by the data. I think
00:40:59
they're incredibly accurate in on >> but they have to self-govern themselves more because they're because the
00:41:04
government's coming after you're seeing all these different arrests and so if they don't self-govern sort of the
00:41:09
gaming that goes on I think it's going to be a they're going to sort of shoot themselves in the foot in that regard.
00:41:14
>> Yeah. >> There's case after case of someone doing something funny. >> Yeah. I I hope you're right. That's the
00:41:20
right thing. The internet is littered with companies that were supposedly going to be regulated.
00:41:25
>> Yeah. >> That were doing >> I mean we'll see. I I I I hope >> they tend to want to go after these
00:41:30
companies. You've noticed a lot more action very quickly as opposed to bigger social media companies right away.
00:41:36
>> But the amount of big back end the amount of money we're going to find out in two weeks the amount of money being
00:41:40
wagered on these markets around the World Cup. >> Yeah. Huge. >> Staggering. >> Staggering.
00:41:44
>> It's going to be bigger. It's going to be bigger than what was g what was gamed
00:41:48
in Vegas during the same period. >> Yeah. I think more than five billion dollars already been traded on the World
00:41:53
Cup outcomes across those two platforms. Enormous. Next question. Uh, just right
00:41:59
here. >> Hello. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Great episode. Uh, Ted from the agency advertising agency Park and Battery.
00:42:06
Quick question. I love your unvarnished opinion on this. Do you see a big next act from some of the CEOs that were
00:42:15
pushed out? I'm thinking Adam from Wei Work, Travis from Uber, and they've gone on to do their own thing. But given all
00:42:22
the dynamics and excitement, you know, that we've been seeing and talking about today, you see uh a big next act from
00:42:28
them and similar former CEOs. >> I mean, they've tried like Adam's tried with that rental weird [ __ ] thing. I
00:42:35
don't know what that is. He >> It's actually done okay. Flow. >> Okay. Yeah. I mean, they're fine. And
00:42:39
Travis has done his ghost kitchen thing and now he's doing >> robotics. >> Robotics. Something around robots.
00:42:44
They're going to try. I think most of these people don't have a second act. They just sort of wander around and
00:42:49
pontificate. That's been my experience. Um, they had one great moment. Um, often
00:42:54
fueled by anger and then they don't really There's very few that have double acts that I've I've seen. I can't Can
00:43:01
you think of one? Someone who like got sort of turned around and then came back. I think they get rich, happy,
00:43:08
they've surround themselves by enablers who violently agree with them at all times and saying you got, you know, you
00:43:15
got screwed, you know, or Caris wish it was mean to you like or something. you were right the whole time. And I think
00:43:21
they just don't mo most of them don't learn from their mistakes and they don't and that's the way you develop the next
00:43:29
thing to me. But that's >> the the the good money is on no because a couple things happen. one
00:43:36
one out of seven companies works is so much has to go right for the company just probability that if you nailed it
00:43:44
and so many moons lined up for your success you're kind of due for them not to line up. It is really hard to repeat.
00:43:52
Really hard because so many things have to line up. And the other thing is the majority of great artists stop can't,
00:44:00
you know, they slip in the shower when they're 24 and they have a hit song and then they hit 30 and it just all stops
00:44:06
because you have kids, because your brain changes, because you start evaluating risk. All of a sudden, you
00:44:13
stop thinking crazy and you have the guidelines of societal norms. You're not working 18 hours a day because you're
00:44:21
rich and you don't need this [ __ ] and you want to spend time with your kids. So, the mojo and the creative genius
00:44:27
that's [ __ ] I mean, who told Michael Jackson to grab his crotch with a glitter glove? I'm telling you,
00:44:33
40-year-old fathers don't think that way. It's just so you you lose that creative craziness. You lose some mojo.
00:44:43
And just statistically speaking to repeat, I've started nine businesses. I'm generously three, four, and two. And
00:44:51
all of them seem like great ideas at the time. And more of it than anything was just luck and timing. And it's very hard
00:44:58
to hit the lottery twice. So the good money is usually on no. >> Yeah. I think most of the people that
00:45:03
succeed are the like Zuckerberg continues to excel like or cook whatever you think of the golden statue continued
00:45:10
to excel. the people that stay at the companies tend to like um Sacha Nadella like you've seen like that kind of
00:45:18
thing. I don't see a lot of new rebirth. There's not many Rolling Stones out there. I would say I would say
00:45:25
>> yeah. Uh right here. >> Uh good day. The name's David. Um I've got a question for you US related. Um
00:45:34
there's a lot of news about redistricting, um voting rights, voting machines, yada yada yada.
00:45:39
>> Yeah, we've noticed that. Oh yeah, I've noticed. Yeah. >> So, what's your prediction of how that
00:45:43
will impact the elections? I'm asking on behalf of the world. >> Well, I think a lot,
00:45:49
>> you know, it's I would agree. I I have I I I I read a lot about I'm not an expert
00:45:56
in this area, but I from what I understand, the Republicans have vastly overreached in this area, and it's not
00:46:02
working, and they may live to regret their efforts. I don't think people like it. I don't think voters like it. That
00:46:08
said, it's they've done a lot of like we've created all these partisan like the if there's a chart of partisan, you
00:46:15
know, purple areas and blue and red and it's like there used to be a lot of purple. Now there's not a lot of per
00:46:22
they've managed to do it and I and then of course the Democrats reacted correctly to try to mute it in
00:46:29
California and everything else, but that's not the way you want to go, right? You want these districts. And so
00:46:34
I I think I believe in Scott. I don't know how Scott feels about that. I believe in voters. I think they
00:46:40
ultimately push back and I think the Republicans have started to see some real losses in some of these
00:46:45
redistricted areas and you'll seeing a lot more. There was a story in the Washington Post this week about the
00:46:50
enthusiasm of Democratic voters. Even if they're not enthusiastic about Democrats, they're they're turning out
00:46:56
more. And Republicans are kind of dis they are disgusted with Trump. You know, they really are. He's losing base after
00:47:02
base after base. until it's finally kid rock and that lean Greenwood guy like essentially um he can't get entertainers
00:47:09
to go he he's losing Latinas Latinos he's losing all vast young men for sure um he's losing all the stupid comics so
00:47:18
I I don't I don't know if it's going to work but it's not a good thing redist there's three things I think have hurt
00:47:24
our country more than anything one is gerrymandering two is Fox News and the third is social media if I had to pick
00:47:30
the three things so Yeah, I would I would add I would add Citizens United in there. Look, the
00:47:37
vibes are really good right now for Democrats and for push back on Trump. Uh you know, he's I think the least second
00:47:43
least popular president at this point. >> No, he was the least he was the least effective.
00:47:48
>> Least um the So things look good. Uh gerrymandering and just taking a grid and placing it over America or dejerry
00:47:57
mandering is a great talking point and what happened for this election. The X factor is the following. This is what I
00:48:02
think happened uh in the last couple months. I think Elon Musk called President Trump and said, "If you lean
00:48:08
on the SEC chair and the NASDAQ to include me in the NASDAQ 100 indices, which will create an incremental 10 to30
00:48:14
billion in demand for my float, which will take my net worth up 20 to 40 billion, I'll spend 1 to10 billion on
00:48:24
the midterms." And there's nothing to stop him. So I think the X factor >> is Musk
00:48:29
>> is Musk because the reality is as much as we like voters and Americans are smart and D that the elections are kind
00:48:35
of won and lost in a 10% in the middle and those people are busy and have things to do and they're influenced by
00:48:42
media and the good work you do and if you increase your net worth by 100 or 200 billion dollars because of SEC and
00:48:52
NASDAQ anomalies that have never been granted to any their company and you have a direct line to the president who
00:48:59
can make this [ __ ] happen. Why wouldn't you say, "Hey boss, I'll spend $10 billion."
00:49:04
$10 billion is going to win a lot of He spent he influenced the last presidential election with $250 million.
00:49:11
And this is the power. This this this is the problem. This is why throughout history, a known known is the following.
00:49:18
Power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts. And in a democratic society with network effects, money and
00:49:23
technology create power on a level and a reach we've never seen before. So a combination of Citizens United, a very
00:49:30
smart guy who understands technology and a willingness to spend one, five or 10 billion in the election. Look out below.
00:49:37
I >> the only thing is the quality of their candidates is really quite bad and that's that's a really and the some of
00:49:42
the Democratic candidates are very compelling. I think has a better bench. Um and there is an element to that. they
00:49:48
they've managed to pick really unattractive, horrible people. And in the Musk case, I do agree with him. He's
00:49:53
got enormous amounts of power. The thing is a lot of reporters and others are on
00:49:57
to him and the more you expose him, the more people are repelled by him and so there is an element to take advantage of
00:50:04
there. The more he looks like he's manipulating the elections, the more people push back against it. I he he and
00:50:11
Trump have the the brand has gone down. I think he more than Trump than anything. Okay, last quick question. I
00:50:18
tend to get my news from Blue Sky, but following dispersed creators in media like Heather Cox Richardson,
00:50:25
>> we just had on. >> Yes, she's amazing. Um, and Substacks and things like that. Is there enough
00:50:31
reach there to actually make a dent and and get in front of people or is that just kind of like a losing model
00:50:37
subscription base and and it'll probably go nowhere given it's a lot of collections of little voices?
00:50:44
>> U the answer is yes. I I think I think uh uh what is it? Blue note. Blue sky.
00:50:50
I'm sorry. I think it's a cute and adorable and it's going to die a slow death. Um I just don't think it's got I
00:50:56
think it got some early traction. This is just vibes. I don't look at the I haven't seen the data, but Substack I
00:51:03
think is a winner. Um and I do think that these platforms there's just too much creator content.
00:51:10
The most encouraging thing about creator content right now is 50% of the ad spend
00:51:14
on creators is in nano or micro creators and that is people doing little niche things and so trust from institutions is
00:51:21
leaking to trust to people who go after very the specific crowds out the narrow.
00:51:25
I've been watching this dad who while he cooks talks about universal healthcare and I just find fascinating. Uh so I I
00:51:31
think some of them will win. The one you brought up, Blue Sky, I'm not I'm not um
00:51:36
I think it's a better brand than a business right now. Um, but yeah, I think there's going to be a ton of cool
00:51:41
little uh little niche platforms that will likely be swallowed up by the big players.
00:51:46
>> I I'll make the final comment on that. Um, I think there the the increasing power of all these smaller things are
00:51:52
going to re are really becoming very strong at this point in terms of not just but numbers too and people
00:51:57
listening and everything else. And I do I but I do think we can't abandon certain central uh institutions like the
00:52:04
New York Times or CNN or all these things. They have to be owned and run by people with responsibility towards
00:52:11
actual journalism because you can go on and on about the Lincoln Memorial all you want. I mean, what what's happening
00:52:17
at Reflecting Pool was just a fat flatout lie by President Trump, but it took the New York Times to actually go
00:52:22
and find all the data and do the reporting. And so you that all that depends on a thriving journalistic
00:52:29
community. So, it would be really great if we could have owners of these real journalistic institutions that aren't
00:52:36
incompetent, and you know who I'm talking about in this case, but that we we we support those and at the same time
00:52:43
um push all these creators. I have helped a lot of people leave big journalistic institutions, but they're
00:52:49
doing great work. And the thing is that it's very hard to do investigative work.
00:52:53
It's very hard to do the really hard reporting without the support of institutions. And there are economic
00:52:59
models if we do it right that will continue to protect that. Um, and so I'm hoping there'll be a combination of big
00:53:06
institutions that figure out their economics better, which they can, with owners that aren't incredibly idiotic.
00:53:13
Um, and and then uh and then these smaller ones that are sort of spurring them to do so. And a collection of them,
00:53:20
I think, is incredibly powerful. I think Scott and I have a lot of influence that
00:53:24
we never thought we'd have. But it's beyond influence. It has to be informed influence and reported analysis. And so
00:53:30
it's not just people doing takes, hot takes all over the place because that doesn't that doesn't tell you things.
00:53:35
You need real reporters on the ground understanding what's happening and bringing it back to people in a fair
00:53:41
way. Um and so I think a I do I I'm very pro on media right now. I think it's one
00:53:47
of the most undervalued uh stocks. I think it's undervalued in a lot of ways. So, I'm hoping um that that at at some I
00:53:55
know there's this worries about these billionaires taking over and quashing them. Let them, as Mel Robbins likes to
00:54:00
say, because we have lots of options and we have lots of choices. And I do think
00:54:05
everybody is very open to new ways of getting information. So, they can try their best, but they're not going to be
00:54:12
able to quash uh really great reporting over a long period of time. I don't think that, and I believe in that. Okay.
00:54:19
All right. Thank you guys so much. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot. Uh,
00:54:31
read us out. >> Today's show was produced by Laren Neon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd
00:54:37
Weisman. Ernie Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Dub Bros, Miss Ao, Laura Stark, Will Lee, and Jenna
00:54:42
McIll. Nish Kro music executive producer. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcast.
00:54:47
Thank you for listening.