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I got to get dressed for whoopy Goldberg you know who's on right after me Donnie Osmond Donnie Osmond that is literally
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literally just when I thought your flexes couldn't get any weaker you're bragging about [Music]
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that hi everyone this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Box media podcast Network I'm Cara swisser and I'm Scott
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Galloway how you doing Scott I just saw you last night when we were together yeah was fun did you like it they love
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us together there on Anderson Cooper yeah what a throw yeah it was nice we spent a lot of time together it was very
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nice to see you it's very good to see you nice to see you we've seen a lot of each other we South by Southwest we have
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we've been hanging we've been rolling yeah yeah yeah yeah are you tired of me no uh I mean I was tired of you years
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ago but no more tired of you I should say that's what I felt yeah no it's nice to see you I always enjoy seeing you
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last night literally we went to dinner and George and I just like lean back can let you and Jess go out of yeah I like
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her she's unusually tall I didn't realize that until she got up oh really yeah she's I think she played basketball
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in high school yeah she's a tall gal she's a tall G absolutely yeah anyway are you tired I made Scott come early to
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work today cuz I'm going you know I'm convinced for guys being tall is like big tits like a woman just gets a natural amount unnatural amount of attention which she has a large it's so
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true think about it okay uh for if a woman has big boobs she just gets an unnatural amount of attention and I think it's the same for a guy if he's tall I think height is a new boobs for
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men you know how you get a lot of attention you you jump up and down at a stage in Austin I have had that picture
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oh that was magic so many times that was comedy gold TV the favorite my favorite
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thing was you just finally go the the audience really responded when you said sit out yeah I know but I was sitting
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there going sit out sit sit out sit down I've gotten that picture sent to me like what is going on here yeah giv the
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little the ladies a little little bit of daddy little bit of dessert a little bit of dessert with their South by South
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with their with their chicken pitas with queso little dog little topping of the dog give give the people what they want
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Cara how about what would you like for Christmas I'd like a little Scott no I don't think so but I did get that
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picture sent to me and asked me what was happening and I said the typical day in the life of pivot essentially here's
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what makes you here's what makes you funnier or more comfortable with being unfunny what just to nition we're all
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going to be dead soon that's right okay yeah I mean I'm comfortable let me think
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I'm comfortable with being unfunny interesting interesting yeah well comfortable being unfunny trying to be
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funny like taking risks right right it's like a lot of times as anyone who listens to the show will know a lot of
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my jokes don't land and here's the thing anyone not laughing you're going to be dead soon and so am I no okay all right
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okay all right well those pictures will endure that's the good thing they will they will endure over time that's
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definitely some therapy for my boys death death decisions are the the metaphor of my life you know that that's
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what I always do when I'm deciding what to say and do that you're going we we've both had yeah well you had you had um my
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dad obviously a health scare and you're you're you lost a parent very young I'm a ra raging atheist I think a like a
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very real sense of the finite nature of life is an absolute blessing I think it really is do you know that Steve Jobs
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essay that he did actually it was a speech that he did at Stanford I read all the time I recommend it to everybody
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it's all about living about denying your about denying your daughter on your oath to a child supp you know what no that is
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not he she pretend he's Jesus Christ because he inv a [ __ ] phone Jes no that is he didn't invent the phone part
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of the acolytes by the way I I I just want to call it out I disliked Elon well before you that is true you used to be a
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Defender yeah I did you're right I agree with you I did well I was mostly attracted to he was focused on important
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things vers I was so tired of people you know you're right I was there's no way out of it there was there was but I
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think I'm more than made up for it I feel like I'm more than made yeah you're catching up I know catching I'm catching up anyway um we got a lot to get to
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today you're um uh I'm in New York as I said I'm picking up my mom um and then I'll go back down to Washington in Washington for a little while but we have a lot to get to today because Washington is where the action today is
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because of the market chaos from the Trump terrorist and uh the Tesla stunt at the White House the car sale at the White House we've got a lot to talk about um but first Amazon announced this
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week that seven seasons of Donald Trump's reality show The Apprentice will soon be streaming on Prime video this
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follows Amazon paying a reported $40 million to license a Milan not even own license a milania trump documentary Trump's cut of the new streaming deal hasn't been revealed but he was an
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executive producer on the show and he actually is well compensated when it when it was shown uh Netflix also just
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made a deal with uh Tony Hinchcliffe the comedian who sparked controversy with that racist joke at Trump rally last
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October about uh Puerto Ricans um T talk to me about this I've watched all the seasons of The Apprentice I'm kind of
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like I can see why you would buy this because he's the president he's popular with half the country I I like the show so I kind of get it um I'm surprised
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that it wasn't available widely I don't recall looking for it and I don't know why you'd watch it again necessarily um
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the Tony Hench I get they're going to they're going to invest in all these things like this going forward and
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they're going to be behind the times because the ones you want to get are the bill burs or whatever which they already
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have of course but um what do you think of these programming moves so Tony hinchcliff I I'm I'm happy for him I like it with comedians even
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if I I think comedians doing really well is really important on both sides of the aisle and so good for him good for is it
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Netflix that's bringing him on yeah netf it yeah the thing that's more troubling is the following there's nothing wrong
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with if Amazon decides in terms of programming to bring on whatever shows they want from the past that help um cement their their value proposition the
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problem is is that okay we have what appears to be Amazon paying overpaying for the Melania Trump documentary
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absolutely in that case yes we have Jeff Bezos giving a million dollars the inaugural campaign and under what feels
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like dur us we have also uh a kind of strange ironic timing where the owner the same guy of the Washington Post has decided they don't need to have an opinion section yeah which feels very
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very quite frankly like he's acous to pressure from Trump so the problem is is that if we end up in a situation where
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every person in power starts to take if if you will kind of soft bribes in exchange for possibly exonerating that
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company from certain regulation or tariffs you just you you have you end up with one of the reasons India has not
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quite frankly kept pace with China 20 years ago most analysts would have said half of analysts 20 30 years ago would
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have said the next enormous growth economy half would have said China half would have said India India is a
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democracy English speakers huge emphasis on education strong with tech it wasn't immediately obvious that China was going
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to absolutely Crush India in terms of growth but here's one of the big problems with India it is wildly [ __ ]
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corrupt and local officials and politicians extract a lot of unfair rents from businesses which makes everyone less competitive and creates incentives for more and more corruption
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China on a regular basis finds corrupt officials and business people and executes them and that is probably not the right way to go but there is they are very serious about corruption and
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that creat more robust competitive workplace we are headed more towards India right now than we have been in the
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past yeah oh that's I was not expecting this this India move this is really interesting I would agree the Melania
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thing is such it feels like such grift I mean they don't own it the money is ridiculous they're not going to get the
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watching out of it I mean it's it's it's it's whack when that that felt like a bribe The Washington Post thing certainly did um and continues to do by the way they lost their very the the the
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very excellent head of um public relations there in Communications left who was a pro um so many people are
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leaving there Ruth Marcus also a columnist great columnist one of their most popular columnists left uh when
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they spiked a piece that was mild at best um which she published in the New Yorker which was fine she's an excellent
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columnist um she's been there forever she was there when I was at the Washington Post The Apprentice I'm going
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to say it it's it's a reasonable enough decision I guess for that one but you're
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right this looks like um uh it looks like payments to Donald Trump in some fashion or ways to get an advantage with him in some way especially Amazon all
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told y don't forget this is the guy that essentially opened a Swiss bank account that any foreign entity could deposit
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money into and only Donald Trump gets the receipts and knows what is going into that bank account and it's called
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the Trump coin he basically set up the ultimate vessel for quiet off off- reccord bribes and where do we go a lot of Republicans will claim and I think there's a real argument here Scott we're
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just less opaque about it than Democrats we don't we cut out the middlemen of lobbyists and of special interest groups
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and of people giving speeches oh they get that to what are you talking about any well but it's a it's theoretically
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it's a fair argument and this is where I just want to bust the solutions I think the right solution here is Singapore and
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that is I believe every Congress person and every Senator should be paid a million to $3 million a year I think the
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President should be paid $10 million a year but in exchange for that there is absolutely zero zero corruption no
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speeches no payments can't work for a lobbyist for 5 years after you get out of office no trading of stocks just
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[ __ ] nothing because the incentives here are unfortunately I'm a very powerful person and I don't make enough money to have a home back in New Port Beach and in DC and the incentives are
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quite frankly just to kind of file with the Ethics Committee maybe they say oh you're not supposed to trade stocks the
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penalties are really low we have to have a zero tolerance for this and dramatically increase their compensation
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yeah I think that's a great idea I do I you know it's what I was sort of yelling about last week is that they're not getting their advantage through
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Innovation and products they're getting their advantage through access and that's a bad sign it's a bad sign for an
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industry um it's a bad sign that this is where they're putting their focus and not on on what they're making um and it
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just it it looks like you know pigs at the trough is what what happens anyway um it's um it's not a surprise but I'll
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be interest to see how how The Apprentice does actually I really like The Apprentice as a as a program although I knew it was all cooked it was
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like watching wrestling um and apparently he was handed every single remark he made on the on the Apprentice
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people who work there told me that I never watched it prh I never saw it I I don't know how it would be interesting
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now it'll feel like such a such a throwback I'm going to watch a couple of them to see cuz I I did watch them all
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and I really enjoy them at the time but then when you go back and watch things you used to watch you're like how in the world did I ever watch that like thre's
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company yeah go do that for a little test for yourself and you'll be like oh my God this is not keeping up come and
00:11:49
knock on our door door come and knock we've been the running joke was that the guy was supposed to be gay I mean that was yes it was incredibly homophobic
00:12:01
pretty sexist and yet you still really like John Ritter you still just like you did really like the guy anyway don't watch that show you won't feel good you know what show disappointed me the most
00:12:12
when went back my favorite show speaking of an obsession with death my absolute favorite show no joke was six feet under
00:12:18
did you ever watch that yeah yeah it was that I remember thinking this is such incredible creative I thought almost every show it made you feel really feel something and then it came back on I
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think AMC or something with commercial breaks and it just absolutely ruined it and you recognize it was the first time I thought people don't realize that
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streaming's real Advantage is no commercials that storytelling is so much easier when every 9 to 11 but that's
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what's so amazing about Modern Family is they they imagine able to keep the thread even though they have to
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interrupt it every 11 minutes with medication telling you you have restless I know I have a hard time with ads now it's weird when I see them on on the
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show I was up late last SW last night watching Hobs and Shaw but they kept having uh commercials and I didn't know
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what to do I was like what do I do now why am I waiting for this anyway um uh speaking of things that are perplexing
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to me and I know uh Jess Jess yesterday liked it but I have a new argument against which you said California
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governor Gavin Nome had none other than Steve Bannon on his podcast the two kept
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up a reasonably friendly tone and Nome didn't push back when Bannon claimed Trump won the 2020 election he he did
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the same with uh Charlie Kirk and Michael Savage and Things They said that were just absolute nonsense lies really
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essentially and and didn't mention for example Kirks he has he has a wide range of
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terrible things he said um that are really just awful actually in a way that um I'll go into it a minute their hourlong conversation was mostly focused this the Bandon one on economic issues
00:13:51
and areas of Common Ground one of those areas Elon Musk let's listen to a clip I
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look he wants to be the first trillionaire in the world I mean what's his endgame here well you know it you guys you created him a governor I mean
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you by the way in many respects California did okay I guess so uh Nome isn't the only one um making podcast this week I'll I'll do all of them former First Lady Michelle Obama has
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launched a video podcast with the Obama's Media Company Higher Ground it's uh with her brother the podcast IMO
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which will focus on um it's in my opinion on thoughtful conversations about life is co-hosted with her brother
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Craig Robinson um so I I'm not sure what's going on with hers I'll talk about hers in a
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minute because I did listen to it um the new someone I and I texted him about it I had a lot of problem with because I
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understood his need to talk across the aisle with people first of all there's a lot of people he could talk to that
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don't constantly lie and the first three guests are really problematic in that regard but if you're going to do that
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you have to like address the real differences and not debate them but Point them out factual inaccuracies and his sort of jocular tone I feel like it's just a political he's doing it only
00:15:05
for politics and to reach out to magga uh voters perhaps I I I was I'm perplexed by the entire Endeavor um and and said so to him uh what are your
00:15:16
thoughts I think it's really smart I KN I know you think that really smart hey look first off first off it's super important that that we we mix it's
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super important that people from the right and the left I'd love to see a giant I'm going to go back I'm as always
00:15:35
I like to read everything in a personal Parable that's kind of kind of relevant adjacent I was president of the inner
00:15:41
fraternity Council which is like King of the jarheads back at UCLA I was quote unquote the head of the governing body
00:15:47
that oversaw the Greek system and my big idea it was a time when there was a lot of tension between the fraternities
00:15:54
which were mostly most obviously all male mostly white and we used to have the stupid theme parties that were
00:16:00
racist and it would inflame special interest groups who saw us and the administration that saw us was an easy
00:16:05
target and the paper was always talking about what awful people we were some of it deserved and my big idea was like
00:16:11
let's take the black students Alliance and metup which was the Latino group and let's all get together and have beers or
00:16:18
get together and play sports together but let's mix and of course they're like we want nothing to do with you [ __ ] weirdos but I think it's really
00:16:24
important that people from different political views get together I think it creates empathy with one another now
00:16:31
what you're saying is to let just say Biden was not Biden did not win the 2020 that requires a more honest hard push back that says okay what evidence actually do you have of that and you're
00:16:43
saying you didn't do that but in terms of just strategically for govern Nome yeah it's it's super smart he's leveraging a new medium he's going after new voters he's meeting voters and
00:16:55
people where they are on podcasts and also the tension and the conflict some that's part of the reason this show is
00:17:02
successful we're not politically aligned on a lot of things and the fact that he can talk about stuff he one shows that
00:17:08
he's smart two he appeals to moderates three three he's very good going kind of I don't want say Behind Enemy Lines but I think America is going to want someone who go ahead go ahead finish finish up
00:17:20
first and then I'll respond I think if he wants to be president which I believe he does America's going to want someone
00:17:26
that they think at the end of the day can sit down with people from pretty far differing perspectives and have a
00:17:32
reasonable conversation and he's showing that all right perspectives different perspectives I agree I think that's fine
00:17:38
I think that's great but let me just read I Oliver Darcy wrote a column that I thought was perfect actually the harm of course isn't just that nuim is
00:17:45
failing to challenge his guests as they lie about important topics to a sizable audience it's that he's actively
00:17:51
contributing to the normalization of extremists by treating the aserious policy thinkers instead of dangerous
00:17:56
right-wing talkers who have caused immense damage to our country figures like Bannon Kirk and Savage aren't
00:18:01
merely conservatives with different policy views they're performers whose platforms are built on deliberate
00:18:06
deceptions dangerous lies and hostility towards basic Democratic principles by inviting them onto his show without
00:18:13
seriously challenging their rhetoric Nome has introduced these dishonest figures to new audiences and he's done
00:18:19
it while portraying them as serious voices who deserve respect and consideration now he also goes on I'm
00:18:24
going to finish this part is um nome's friendly approach also represents a possible missed opportunity real
00:18:31
dialogue across political divides can have value but only when there's actual accountability hard-hitting questioning
00:18:37
challenging of false narratives and yes factchecking would have made for interesting show imagine how John Stewart or John Oliver would have
00:18:43
interrogated the positions of these uh far these far right uh Wing personalities had Nome engaged in this
00:18:50
in this style of interview his podcast would have served a valuable purpose exposing rather than amplifying dishonest media figures um it would have
00:18:57
been far more interesting than watching him bro it up with Maga world I and and he he did come to the same conclusion
00:19:03
it's a move that frankly suggests he values his own political future more than holding some of the world's most toxic media figures accountable for
00:19:10
their corrosive impacts on society in his sense this podcast revealed quite a lot about his character that he's
00:19:16
willing to do in the pursuit of power I really hate to say that but I would agree with that I I I don't see a plus I
00:19:23
I see I you know I like when there's debates across things but these are unreliable and disingenuous people that
00:19:30
are doing things to Advantage stories that aren't true and that's the and this is what Jess and I
00:19:37
argued about when you guys were staring at us because you spend all your time solving the lie and then you don't actually have a discussion yeah I mean I hear that and
00:19:50
I'm like let's clutch our pearls a little harder it's not pearls oh yeah it is for God's sakes we can have we can
00:19:56
Steve Steve mannon served was a senior adviser to the president he's okay let me be clear I don't like the man he said
00:20:03
publicly that Trump's Administration should sue me I do not want Steve Bannon to be successful he was had a very
00:20:09
senior role in the previous administration he is very smart and he says some batshit crazy things the problem here was was that Governor Newsome should have been abl and been
00:20:21
more prepared to really push back and say what you said here makes no sense can you please tell us what your
00:20:27
thinking is right but we absolutely need more okay the platform argument you don't give Alex Jones not a platform you don't give the tap Brothers a platform I
00:20:38
said to Pierce Morgan when I was on the show I'm like why do you bring this guy on you're just adding legitimacy having him St sit next to you on TV guys like
00:20:46
Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon uh look Democrats get over it and by the way I would like to see a lot of these crazy you know a lot of the more right podcasters bring on AOC and the thing
00:20:58
you're great interviewer Governor Nome is not and what you are able to do is the following and you guys have to thread a very fine needle and that is people aren't going to come on and be
00:21:08
made a fool of and get into a shouting match so you have to show a little bit of respect and at the end of the day if
00:21:14
they keep lying you have to say okay I don't believe that's true but you move on and you you you try to be hospitable
00:21:20
and a good host and present people in their best best light and I think he aired on the side of not pushing back
00:21:26
where he probably should have but I think this is a really healthy thing I need more I like when Pete Budaj goes on
00:21:33
Fox News I like when Newsome was doing that with you know when he did a good job Ronda santz they had a that was a
00:21:40
really interesting debate okay because he pushed back thoughtfully I don't mind pushing uh thoughtful discussions I don't in fact a lot of journalists have interviewed Steve Bannon I get it I get
00:21:51
why you should do it the jocular stuff and pretending those things these people specifically do these things as you know as as a way to manipulate people they
00:22:04
they aren't doing it they're doing it not because of their beliefs they're doing it to tickle Maga in some way and
00:22:11
I just think if you are going to do this then act like you did with Ronda santz show some preparation show some I don't
00:22:18
expect him to be a journalist but I don't expect him to pretend this never happened and that's what things are it
00:22:25
was how he handled the interview not whether he should have done I didn't I don't think he shouldn't I what I do think he should do is do the job he did
00:22:32
before and I was perplexed as to why it was like all joking all joking all oh don't we all get along and I think some of these people particularly Bannon is I
00:22:44
think about whether I would do an interview with him or not and it's part of me you know I think I made the joke
00:22:50
you know what is it is it a good is it good to ask you know like CU he because he's woring with musk so everyone's like
00:22:56
oh you should talk to him I I don't know if that's enough common ground to really have anything that's thoughtful in any
00:23:03
way because you're constantly spending your entire interview fixing the lie and then the story then the conversations
00:23:09
about the lie versus actual policy debate I guess but even that even that I've been asked or or so one of the shows we go on a lot sometimes I the
00:23:21
panelists I think like I just can't keep up with the stream of falsehoods I'm not going to be able to respond without
00:23:28
without factchecking real time but even what you said I think is valuable to say look I so much of what you're saying
00:23:35
does not sound right and we can't and there's so much of it that we can't keep up with fact checking I think even
00:23:40
that's a fair statement to say you're just flooding The Zone it feels like you're flooding The Zone with non- truce
00:23:46
but really good interviews are able to say well actually I think of when this fair you know fairly famous venture
00:23:53
capitalist who moved from San Francisco to Miami and started shitposting California such long enough such that he could could get a reduction in capital
00:24:00
gains when he sold a stock went on CNBC and started basically lying about the earnings of Open Door basically saying it was profitable when it wasn't and and D Bolsa fact checked him real time she
00:24:13
like no you can't say this company is profitable it's not she was so prepared or there was a producer in ear going
00:24:20
that's not true push back on that she essentially real time said our viewers I don't want you to lie to our viewers over and over we're talking about people's wealth and stock trades and two
00:24:30
or three times she would stop him and say that's just not true with politics it's harder cuz some of it is subjective
00:24:36
right I mean but if you're going to say like you said the election I mean that to me is just a softball like please show me the evidence right that contradicts the 62 court cases where the
00:24:48
judges including Republican appointed judges and Trump appointed judges said there was no evidence right of election
00:24:53
fraud that's all I wanted that's essentially when he did the dis when he goes on Fox I don't think he's hostile I
00:25:00
think he's having a great conversation actually I don't think he's like gotcha I just was like what happened to that
00:25:07
Gavin like what in the world happened and when he announced this I thought great idea you would you do very well in
00:25:13
those environments and the conversations must be had but this was I just don't know what he's up to here because it's not the guy who goes on Fox News it's not the guy who um Wades into you know
00:25:27
people he disagrees with I do do know California does need um this funding from the Trump Administration I see that
00:25:33
he has to be a little more solicitous of these people but at the same time um and
00:25:38
and and he kind of wants to den neuter them before he runs and so he doesn't get all the flak that they may they will
00:25:46
inevitably aim at the next Democratic Presidential nominee he'll have speaking of the app yeah speaking of The
00:25:51
Apprentice I asked my master if I shave my ass does that mean I'm gay and he says he who is cleaning his house is
00:25:57
expecting visitors oh that's wrong that's really that's awful I kind of like that that's
00:26:03
perfect that's perfect any that's my way of saying we need to segue out of the store I we do I do but I do wish he had
00:26:09
done what he had done with the santis and others and he's not doing that here and I wish got the last word this is called our relationship you got the last
00:26:15
word he should also have left wi figures he disagrees with anyway apparently they won't go on he told me they won't go
00:26:21
onway yes I know get Aon and Bernie can you imagine the two of them together oh my God don't you just hope they both get naked go it I don't any I pay cash money
00:26:32
to see Governor New and representative Ocasio Cortez oh God okay Scott let's go on a quick break and we come back Trump's chaotic tariffs Scott we're back with the ongoing tariff Whiplash the EU
00:26:44
and Canada announced billions of dollars in retaliatory tariffs on Wednesday after president Trump Le levies on on
00:26:50
steel and aluminum went into effect uh the markets continue their roller coaster ride fluctuating uh with all the
00:26:56
Tariff pivots speak think of pivots um which you and I called red light green light on Anderson Cooper last night but
00:27:03
steadying slightly with positive uh inflation report but people are still expecting inflation to rise I'll know
00:27:09
we're recording this Thursday morning so Trump may change his mind on tariffs several more times before our listeners
00:27:15
hear this we'll get into recession concerns which I'm calling Trump session in a bit but what do you think will
00:27:21
happen uh what what do you think about these terrs of the last few days are are markets overreacting or are they getting
00:27:28
it right the Wall Street Journal reported on a closed door Gathering of CEOs this week at the business roundt
00:27:34
where impromptu poll was taken about the economy oh this was the Jeffree sonnenfeld one 44% of the market said uh
00:27:41
would uh have to fail 20% for them to speak out 22% the stocks uh said stocks would have to fall 30% before they would take a stand um Jamie Diamond finally did after saying Trump's get over it on
00:27:54
the tariffs is now saying this is a bad thing start with tariffs yeah first off I think Jeffrey seld is a gift and he wrote a fantastic uh opinion piece about how some of these corporate
00:28:06
leaders who claim to be leaders and claim to care about America need to speak up and there haven't been that many many and congratulations to Jamie
00:28:12
for kind of stepping into the void and saying what's on everybody's mind I think you're going to see more of it look tariffs are the following they're
00:28:20
not universally bad if if if China is charging a tariff on our cars we get to charge a tariff on their cars until we both decide to lower tariffs free trade creates Prosperity you can also probably
00:28:33
need a tariff to support certain strategic Industries we probably should have some some level of domestic
00:28:40
production of Steel in case those Supply chains are shut down and we need to build tanks or what have you but when
00:28:46
for example these aluminum and steel tariffs we tried that when in the last Trump Administration and what they found
00:28:52
is the following that okay let's assume that the additional Revenue created by the tariffs let's assume that the
00:28:58
additional Revenue captured by Cleveland Cliffs and US steel are two largest remaining steel manufacturers their
00:29:04
Market they be their products become more competitive because foreign foreign steel is more expensive so they get more
00:29:10
share more money more tax revenue more jobs all right theoretically it all works here's the problem one consumers
00:29:17
prices get get increased consumers have to pay up to 68 122,000 more for a truck
00:29:22
with these tariffs which takes down the demand which takes down the gross profit
00:29:28
of the domestic supplier because their products are more expensive relative to other people's products because we have to increase our input costs there is a reciprocal tariff almost always meaning
00:29:40
that our products become more expensive overseas and what you found with the aluminum steel tariffs is that the
00:29:46
increase in the cost of steel made that so many products Across America had to increase their prices because steel and aluminum were big inputs that the increase in prices reduced demand much
00:29:59
more than the incremental income games from the companies that benefit from their products being more competitive in some in almost every case tariffs don't work and if you look at what companies
00:30:09
do thousands of times a year across the market they are perfectly trying to calibrate Nike is perfectly trying to calibrate volume times gross margin and
00:30:20
figure out the exact peanut butter and chocolate combination for shareholders all right if we sold if we lowered our
00:30:26
prices and took our margins down from 30 points to 10 points we double our volume but we' we'd end up with less profit so
00:30:32
they perfectly attempt or attempt to perfectly calibrate across every Market what is the optimal price relative to
00:30:38
volume relative to margin and when the government comes with tariffs what they're saying is hey company you're stupid we could take prices up and it
00:30:45
wouldn't hurt demand and it never works out that way it usually suppresses demand and revenues in a much greater
00:30:53
volume or amount than the increase in revenues it makes us less competitive it makes say less productive and it
00:30:59
increases costs if you're looking for an elegant way to increase consumer costs while reducing productivity and demand
00:31:06
across our products in foreign markets congratulations this is this is super sizing brexit this is the most elegant efficient way to reduce American Prosperity it makes absolutely no sense
00:31:18
sorry here's a period eveness gives you his lecture in class even worse this yeah even worse than this even worse than the tariffs yeah if he said all right I'm putting a 10%
00:31:31
tariff on everything from China American companies could go okay this is stupid whatever but he gets to make this
00:31:36
decision but they could plan they could say okay the cost of our shoes and our cars is about to go up 12 or 15% we
00:31:43
estimate that demand will fall by this and we can adjust and plan for this but here's what's even worse than these
00:31:49
ridiculously stupid tariffs is the uncertainty means that foreign and domestic suppliers can't plan their goddamn business when we were at South by Southwest a lot
00:32:00
of the digital media companies who were off to a great start of the year yeah right the lack of the lack of
00:32:06
uncertainty because okay we know Trump's in office we sort of know we we think we sort of know what to expect let's get back to business and start spending
00:32:12
money the 2025 started great for digital media companies dependent upon consumer
00:32:17
advertising and now their quarter has been blown because some of the biggest advertisers in America including
00:32:24
automobile companies have all said the following we have no [ __ ] idea what's going on so we're doing nothing they
00:32:31
have told their media planners until there's more clarity stop spending money and the lack of certainty the lack of consistency as a trading partner means every large organization and Company in
00:32:42
the world is trying to reconfigure their supply chain to be less dependent upon America which means less money for
00:32:49
America the terrorists are bad the uncertainty is even worse oh wow that was a lecture this I just felt like I was macroeconomics back in college right now that was a macroeconomics Professor
00:33:01
well yeah it felt like yeah I took macroeconomics in in my freshman year um thank you Professor Galloway for that
00:33:08
cogent analysis it sucks is what now come by my office hours and I'll help you on the hard Parts don't do that
00:33:13
don't do don't that's wrong no that's wrong that's wrong that's wrong listen let me I will give a much shorter thing
00:33:19
I was on the MRA train when the people were coming back from the business Round Table to New York and all of them were
00:33:25
insulting Trump every one of them even if they don't speak out they all said what a [ __ ] idiot this uncertainty sucks and they were all insulting it and
00:33:32
saying what do we do now second CU they talk too loud on an Amtrak train all these men they were all men um and then
00:33:38
one woman um and then secondly um a a CEO of a very big public company that is going to be affected by tariffs and I'm not going to say what it is I said what are you going to do now what are what
00:33:52
are you going to do now and he said pass it on to Consumers and I was like thought so right and so and it's going
00:33:59
to hurt his business he was like I don't I'm going to have to pass it along to Consumers there's no other way and and
00:34:05
it's going to affect his business across the globe absolutely and it was like this is we don't know what to do so
00:34:10
we're going to do anything it's going to affect everyone along with the cuts in government the sort of non scalpel like
00:34:16
Cuts in government which would hearten people the across theboard Cuts where you don't know where it's going to happen with crazy Elon with the chainsaw
00:34:23
same thing it's nobody knows because there's you know it's interesting because the Department of Education Cuts
00:34:29
everyone's like oh it's not useful they mostly have privatized much of their research and studies and stuff that's
00:34:36
actually somewhat useful to know if things work or not different testing and things like that that's all been
00:34:41
privatized so that's going to that's going to have second and third order effects and mostly across the country
00:34:47
not in Washington and so although Washington's also going to be affected so the effects are everywhere and so
00:34:53
that's why there's been a lot of talk of recession lately which I call a trump session um I'm going to keep saying that
00:34:58
word till it catches on like Biden omics um um though Trump is dancing around that language let's listen to what he
00:35:05
told Fox businesses Maria bomo earlier this week by the way Caris Wier is not a fan of Maria bomo uh when asked about
00:35:12
the possibility of a recession I hate to predict things like that there is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big we're bringing wealth back to America that's a big thing and
00:35:26
there are always periods of it takes a little time it takes a little time but I don't I think it should be great for us uh this issue has
00:35:38
been a real hair up his ass the idea that Terrace will work um he's way back in the smooth holid dayss but Commerce
00:35:44
Secretary Howard lutnick had a different take on tariffs and recession an interview with CBS News let's listen
00:35:50
these policies are the most important thing America has ever had so it is worth it it it is worth it a I don't
00:35:57
think that the only reason there could possibly be a recession is because of the Biden nonsense that we had to live
00:36:03
with these policies produce revenues so you're saying when it looks chaotic and unpredictable from the outside that there actually is a master plan when it comes to these tariffs it is not chaotic
00:36:17
and the only one who thinks it's chaotic is someone who's being silly oh my God he's such a clown he's such a ridiculous
00:36:24
like sucker go ahead the most important thing in American history it's our decision to at huge costs risk to our
00:36:32
young men risk to our economy turning turning washing machine factories into tank factories overnight we decided for the second time to enter into World War
00:36:43
II and push back on fascism oh we decided that this incredible prosperity and rights should be extended to not
00:36:48
civil rights oh I'm sorry but but these [ __ ] tariffs are the most important thing America's ever done I know I mean
00:36:56
you just lose so much cred when you say that and this is so chaotic I I don't even know the status of the tariffs right now and I follow this [ __ ] so
00:37:06
these guys come across have you I know now know why this guy is not respected on Wall Street when I he opens his mouth he's such a clown he's a suck up to Trump because he's finally
00:37:17
relevant he talk goes around talking about he's best friends to Trump in Washington all over the place he is a he
00:37:23
is the thirstiest public official I've ever seen and it's because he's not beloved on
00:37:29
Wall Street um and secondly he's say he's spewing nonsense just nonsense out of his you know who's the big winner
00:37:36
here is China you know what China China has literally deployed dozens if not hundreds of their diplomats to the
00:37:42
biggest European and Latin American companies and they've said the following you may not love us but you can count on
00:37:50
us we we like trade we like Commerce and we do what we say and you know what you're dealing with with us you've been buying all these this produce or products or finished
00:38:02
products or soft whatever it might be from the US you have no idea how to plan and what to expect from these folks you
00:38:08
can count on us this is the deal we are open for business we love Commerce we are a Dependable consistent partner dep
00:38:16
or even not China Canada's going to do more business with me this is literally a gift y to every major economic power
00:38:24
that would had to compete against America what they're saying is America is not competitive because you can't
00:38:30
believe what they say and the biggest the greatest level of damage here isn't even going to show up in the short run
00:38:36
Goldman Sachs already took their GDP prediction from 25 down from 2.4 to 1.7 it'll be the long-term impacts of when people reconfigure their supply chain and their relationships they're going to
00:38:47
be somewhat like remissed to re-engage again this is going to be a structural step down in our credibility across our largest trading partners and trade no no
00:38:57
doubt if you don't if you don't think about who gets really hurt you can end up with a you know a really difficult
00:39:03
situation and that's where America America's been really good on trade where we're bad is helping out and showing empathy for the people who get
00:39:10
quite frankly who are on the wrong wrong end of that but on the whole Prosperity
00:39:15
just grows we we just continue to see that economically over time and people when they stop buying our products not because they might they might be the most competitive in a year but they're like we don't know what's going to
00:39:26
happen in the next year or two years so do you think a recession's likely at this point because again with this fell
00:39:31
in charge I mean I'm thinking Gina rundo was so smart and this guy is so dumb like actually dumb like I I think he when Ma macroeconomics was taking place he was the one sleeping behind me the
00:39:43
dude sleeping on the desk behind me that's what it feels like he's not paying attention to almost any obvious
00:39:49
thing and you're right we didn't take when we did some of these trade deals we didn't think of the effects here enough
00:39:55
and figured out how to retrain and get people into new jobs and things that were more competitive and figure out
00:40:00
what Advanced manufacturing we could do here with our population and Etc that you're right CH this is an opportunity
00:40:06
for China so do you uh you know and the second thing is people worried about their 401ks and portfolios during this
00:40:13
volatility I mean do you think there's going to be a recession very briefly and then what would you say to people with
00:40:19
this with the Stock Market Warren Buffett looks like a genius Teri suck I'm in cash look who looks like he is
00:40:26
the goat he should be he should be president but anyway like economists I don't consider
00:40:32
myself like an economist but quotquot academics have predicted nine of the last three recessions it's very hard to
00:40:38
tell because you could have ai finally get real Traction in the economy and massively increase productivity which
00:40:44
results in economic growth that overcompensates for these ridiculous tariffs and we have a tendency to
00:40:49
sometimes overestimate the power of the president his policies on this unbelievable engine called the American
00:40:55
economy that kind usually over medium and long term sort of figures out a way so I think it's dangerous to predict
00:41:01
okay um predict predict a recession what was your second question Caren um what would you do you know you're in the
00:41:07
stock market just leave Al the market the only thing the only thing I would consider is the following and that
00:41:13
is if this stat just blew my mind if you add in corporate debt so people have heard that the market capitalization of US Stocks now represents 50% of total Equity value globally which is
00:41:25
extraordinary but if you add in corporate debt because the Enterprise value of a company is its market cap say
00:41:30
100 million plus if it has 50 million in debt the market is saying that this company's worth $150 million because
00:41:35
we're giving it $100 million in equity value despite the fact it also owes 50 million we're say worth 150 million if
00:41:42
you add in all corporate debt and the world is worth $100 America costs 70 right now and the rest of the world Sons the US costs 30 so if someone said to
00:41:54
you Caris swisser you can either buy America for $70 or the rest of the world bu 30 which would you'd buy the rest of the world and so what I'm doing is the following first off I think you're
00:42:05
always invested in the markets don't try and time them you are not woren Buffett and when people predict a recession
00:42:11
often times the market goes up 20 or 30% and also you have to take into account whether you're going to trigger a
00:42:16
taxable gain on your a taxable event on your income games what I would suggest and this is not Financial advice but what I am doing 70 versus 30 I am pulling money out of the US and I'm
00:42:27
putting into lowcost Diversified index funds in non us markets because while index funds will diversify you if you're
00:42:34
just in an S&P or a NASDAQ index fund you're actually not that Diversified because typically when the markets get
00:42:40
this expensive in America for the next five or 10 years you have 0% returns European stocks haven't been this cheap in a long time American stocks haven't been this expensive in a long time so
00:42:53
what I would say is one I don't think you should go to cash just don't think you can time the markets but what I
00:42:59
would suggest is thinking about diversifying across geographies not just asset classes yeah excellent excellent
00:43:04
advice Professor Galloway this was a very professorial I'm I used to fall asleep in macroon is that meth I did
00:43:11
this morning like this I was like this I used to do that was at 8:10 in the morning anyway um let's go on a quick
00:43:17
Break um we'll be back and to chat about Trump and Elon Hawking Teslas at the White House Scott we're back with our
00:43:24
second big story The Beautiful Bromance of eled trust continues that's from our producers the rest of us worry about
00:43:31
dismantling of our government president Trump has focused on a very important task promoting sales of Teslas after
00:43:37
posting on true social Tuesday morning he said he would buy a Tesla to support mus I bet he hasn't Trump welcomed Elon
00:43:43
in a fleet of Teslas to the White House the president had a cheat sheet of notes and kudos to that photographer who got
00:43:49
that picture in his hands while praising the company uh let's listen to what he thought when he sat uh in one of the
00:43:55
cars and by by the way he hates EVS he said he actually hates EVS he doesn't drive etc etc so this was why this was
00:44:06
precious this is a different panel than I've had everything's computer that's beautiful wow oh my God
00:44:14
he hasn't ever been inside a a a car in like a long time that's really I mean a car looks like that Tesla stock is down 26% the last month at the time the taping it had a bump from Trump but most
00:44:26
people people just there were two analyst reports showing uh that Tesla's in real trouble um that are that are
00:44:32
taking the stock price down quite considerably although it's hard to bet against Tesla because of like stunts
00:44:38
like this um Scott did you know um that um that that that there's a computer in a Tesla I just what the [ __ ] what do you think of this stunt U look we have a bias but I this
00:44:54
to me just seemed [ __ ] ridiculous yeah that the president of the United States would decide to do an infomercial
00:45:00
for one brand and not all other American it's one thing if he and the Commerce Secretary were to stand in front of a
00:45:05
bunch of American-made EVS including Tesla I think Biden screwed up not including Tesla in the EV Summit that
00:45:11
was just that was punitive the other way that was playing favorites the other way yeah but when you basically do one of
00:45:18
these bad local you know I'm crazy Bob come down to Bob's Ford and Lincoln Mercury a crazy deal no percent down whatever yeah yeah I I was joking that
00:45:29
that you can least own America for $285 million it's just this is stupid and goes back to the notion that this kind of [ __ ] should not be allowed it it reflects poorly on America it reflects
00:45:41
poorly on Trump and I'm I'm the thing I don't get about musk who is so obviously
00:45:48
has such an unbelievable feel for business is that 75% of Republicans say they would never buy an EV yeah if he
00:45:55
was just purely qu unquote economically driven which I think he is I think he would have gone blue pill yeah because
00:46:03
the marketplace I always use an example we talked about this when Nike went political it was a smart move because
00:46:09
they tickled the sensors of the core Market he's pissing off his core Market I just don't I don't understand I think
00:46:15
he's uninterested in Tesla I think he's uninterested in Tesla anymore I don't I I don't know what else because they
00:46:20
haven't innovated on the product I know everybody sort of looks at the polarization that he's created and he's
00:46:26
he's he's repulsing his customers and he's not going to attract the ones who like him now right they don't want
00:46:31
they're not they may like him they're not going to buy his car um they might I mean they might I guess but I doubt it
00:46:37
Sean Hannity he supposedly bought one whatever and he's like it goes it go fast I was like these are good cars I
00:46:43
complained again to daros R Shahi I was like I just ordered an an Uber black and
00:46:49
a Tesla showed up and they're still not luxury cars that now I'm making the argument to him it's not a luxury car
00:46:55
it's very tinny and a a bumpy ride and if I wanted a luxury car send me an actual luxury car if I'm paying for it
00:47:02
but that said I think it's it was pathetic but now interestingly if support um uh doesn't do what Elon was
00:47:10
hoping in the long term which was at least stabilized Tesla shares which are drifting down I suspect they're going to
00:47:15
be drifting down again um it's not the only way the president is attempting to help him uh Trump also said he would
00:47:22
label attacks against Tesla dealerships domestic terrorism uh nobody likes these attacks these are stupid what people
00:47:29
they're allowed to protest and the fact that he's calling he's trying to sort of Link regular protests with uh domestic
00:47:35
terrorism is ridiculous but attacking um you know charger facilities Etc is just
00:47:41
violent is what it is not terrorism it's just obnoxious and and illegal and those should be arrested um and Elon Musk is
00:47:48
paying back the favors he reportedly plans to give a $100 million to president Trump's political operation that Trump can can control rather than a
00:47:57
uh musk during the election musk donated over $250 million to his prot Trump Super Peg that he controlled he made up that $100 million in the rise in Tesla stock uh after Trump did this
00:48:09
infomercial um but it feels so payto playay it's like so right in front of you um and I agree Biden should have
00:48:16
included a Tesla in that that particular uh event at the White House and you know
00:48:21
someone was arguing that presidents always promote different Pro American Products but not like this this was like
00:48:29
it was plus he didn't know how cars worked which would even made him seem older and more like an old man in my I
00:48:35
think that also was weird his his discomfort uh inside of a car felt very I don't know it gave me like a like a Biden feel like a a daughtering old man kind of and he's a VI I think he is much
00:48:49
more vibrant obviously than Biden uh any other thoughts about this money that that's going back and forth between
00:48:54
these two there's uh it really is I mean it's it's so pay but money in politics and just what feels like a straight pay for play
00:49:06
and all the incentives are I mean I've said this for a long time the thing that so has horrified me about our
00:49:13
representatives and our Congress is not that they're horse not that if you give them money you get audience with them
00:49:18
I've known that for a long time it's what incredibly cheap whes they are and that is if you give 10 to 25 Grand to
00:49:27
every Senator I bet more than half would meet with you when you swung by Washington and and influences a
00:49:34
functional proximity and intimacy you have audience with people who get to who get to Levy or are the Arbiters of the largest person history so the incentives are Jeff Bezos or or or Mark Zuckerberg
00:49:49
look at these Investments and go this is the best investment in history a million bucks for his inauguration campaign and
00:49:55
he stops threatening to put me in jail or he's going to not try and break me up or he's going to tell the FDC or the doj
00:50:00
to hands off Amazon or whoever this is the best money spent unless you have systemic laws and regulation that says no we pass laws that affect all
00:50:11
companies we're not allowed to play we're not allowed to play favorites it's just a race to the bottom where
00:50:17
everyone's like all right let's give them a giant metal and award and build a gold statue of them and give $10 million
00:50:24
to his electoral campaign and the problem is that favors the incumbents CU they're the ones that have all the power
00:50:30
and anybody who says no I'm standing up for American values I'm not going to take this money they're at a huge
00:50:35
disadvantage and we end up with a majority of our elected officials are willing to engage in this grift in this
00:50:42
trade so you know it's interesting because there is a point to be made that you know other politicians are getting paid
00:50:49
under the table and this is explicit but it's gross no matter how it happens and it doesn't look like it's about the
00:50:55
products right it never it's not about what's best it's what who can pay me the most and that you know it that's the
00:51:02
we're not focused on making things that are good we're focused on who who owes the money and that we all know that
00:51:09
about American politics but it's not implicit or explicit it's grotesque is what it is you know who is just one example you know who's doing this right University of California uh I owe the I
00:51:20
owe California taxpayers a lot I've given some money to UCLA and to Berkeley and both the chancellors of UCLA and
00:51:26
Berkeley called me and said one thank you and two I just need you to know this your kid is less likely to get in now
00:51:34
that you have given money they are not only so uh like you know worried about conflicts of interests and abusing the
00:51:41
public purse that if you give over a certain amount of money to the University of California the chancellor will call you and say just FYI your kid
00:51:48
is now less likely to get in because we have to be so careful about conflicts and not abusing the public trust and
00:51:54
quite frankly I respect it yeah you call your kid Swisher you want to change the
00:51:59
kid name to swier trust me I'll call you that's right you went to a private school where you can still just pay you
00:52:05
can do pay for play yeah that's true but this that is how government that is how you are supposed to respect the power of
00:52:13
money you're giving this is when he when he favors Industries he's spending your
00:52:19
money he's abusing your tax I don't even know how much that cost that probably cost like it's the amount of money this guy just throws away of taxpayer money like on golfing or his his dumb military
00:52:32
flights of immigrants that are overpriced and then does this you know it's just ridiculous and you know and
00:52:37
the only person that benefited was Elon Musk with the stock going up and then somewhere somehow there's money in
00:52:43
Trump's pocket every time I think this was bad for the brand I really do I I think it just I think it looked
00:52:49
desperate yeah yeah I would you know I really now that you really don't want to own a Tesla all right uh Scott one more
00:52:56
quick break we'll be back for predictions okay Scott let's hear your prediction and just say you thought that they're going to break up uh do you
00:53:03
still think that you said do should be over and Elon would be gone um but let's let's hear your prediction first well that's that is my prediction
00:53:13
and that is there's not going to be a breakup I think that essentially keep people keep asking us as Anderson did
00:53:19
last night when does the relationship end I don't think the relationship ends with a bang I think he just sorts I
00:53:24
think must just Fades to black one if Doge if the Trump is if the president is really serious about the cabinet uh
00:53:32
secretaries now get to make the final decision and musk is just an advisor to them that means nothing is going to
00:53:38
happen because these cabinet secretaries have a very difficult job they need all of their staff the savings are minimal
00:53:45
in comparison to for example the increase in the deficits from the planned tax cuts so if Elon Musk comes
00:53:51
back he's not going to come back with a thoughtful you could probably cut a thousand of the 45 00 people from the
00:53:57
Department of Education who have overseen National mandatory testing which most people think has not worked
00:54:03
right intentions has not work if he came back with thoughtful recommendations the Department of Education might say okay
00:54:10
that might make sense but he's not he's not there to look at fraud and waste which by the way we've got a clean bill
00:54:16
of health on so far because I can't find as much as everyone had anticipated but also these are not this isn't about an
00:54:22
audit this isn't about efficiency these are this is a these are Pol IAL actions when you cut off all us Aid it's a
00:54:29
political action and political actions are supposed to be uh left to our elected representatives representing the
00:54:35
people so if it was in fact about efficiency fine but what he said is if he in fact is honest about now he's just an adviser he's going to have no power nothing's going to happen and in
00:54:47
addition he is now probably doing the math and going I miscalculated there are not only is is
00:54:55
Tesla sales being hand hammered but what he's really scared of has happened and that is the virus here has jumped the
00:55:02
lab to starlink and that is a lot of big customers are now rethinking their Starling relationship so what initially was very accretive to his personal wealth has returned he's lost all that
00:55:13
money and the momentum is downward so I think he's basically going to P pull a VC and just slowly Fade Away out of and
00:55:21
I think doge is going to die a quiet death because he has it it looks as if his he's his power has been emasculated
00:55:27
and two he's just losing so much money right now because of the negative brand Hal guess and guess what country has
00:55:34
Alternatives China and Jeff Bezos is working on things there's so now to starlink now starlink is dominant at
00:55:41
this point but and he keeps saying there's no other alternative he said that about Tesla there's other Alternatives there's going to be other
00:55:47
Alternatives and then he is up the creek without that proverbial paddle you're right I agree with you interesting
00:55:53
prediction we'll see there there is a staying power there's a weird relationship happening between these two though that he stays there that he's at
00:56:00
the White House the kids around there's something much different here but I would agree money he's he he almost
00:56:07
teared up when he was talking about the money he was losing um even the world's richest man doesn't like to lose tens of
00:56:13
billions of dollars on any one day so Cara you know what stock is up the Starling competitor in Europe utel stat
00:56:20
has quadrupled in the last 30 days as these small inferior product competitors are now viable again because they have an enormous increase in interest from Nations and companies that don't want to
00:56:32
work with starlink I mean this is so bad for starlink you're about to see a massive amount of capital going to other
00:56:42
um satellite and Communications providers that quite frankly weren't as competitive they weren't as good
00:56:48
Starling Superior product by the way Tesla was a superior product but he never he hasn't improved it and again as
00:56:55
I say over and over again and a lot of people are banning Tesla because they're repulsed by Elon Musk but they have not
00:57:01
innovated their product if you have a great product and in this case it's the repulsiveness and the danger if you go
00:57:07
with him in this case and that's why Europe is going to abandon him and so is Canada as Canada has it's not just that
00:57:13
and there's plenty of there's going to be plenty of competitors in the starlink business very soon anyways there won't
00:57:18
be a press there won't be a press announcement but watch in 30 or 60 days DOA is going to be surprisingly like not
00:57:25
in the news okay all right we'll see I'd be interested that would be great and then they can go to Mars and then it'll be great for him to do that um we want
00:57:32
to hear from you send us your questions about business Tech or whatever is on your mind go to nymag.com Pivot to
00:57:37
submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot Scott that is the show and you you're going when are you going back to London soon at some point I'm going away for the weekend and then I go back to London on Sunday how about you up to
00:57:52
I'm I'm going to I'm moving my mom to Washington as I told you I'm pick up and then I will be in DC but then I'm
00:57:59
actually going on a little vacation myself to Puerto Rico three Puerto Rico with three of my uh F my four children
00:58:07
um we're going and we're going to have a little elun time and uh and be in in Puerto Rico which should be a state as
00:58:13
far as I'm concerned um I'm excited Amanda loves it and so we're going to go there I'm kind of I've never been to
00:58:18
Puerto Rico I love Puerto Rico it's beautiful it's a beautiful place it's a really nice place and it's in these
00:58:25
United States and and people should go there um people should go to all the places that were sort of hit by hurricanes too so I like I like uh going
00:58:32
to places that are in the United States and also uh deserving of our attention anyway I like I'm not a big vacationer so I'm excited going the new tariff s champagne I feel bad I'm going to spend
00:58:44
more time in St Barts just to just to be a good citizen yeah okay all right all right Scott that's the show we'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot read us out Today's show was produced by luren a
00:58:56
Joe Marcus and Taylor Griffin Ernie intd engineered this episode thanks also to Drew Bros M Saro and Dan shulan Nisha
00:59:02
Kwa VOX media executive producer of audio make sure you subscribed to the show where every you listen to podcasts
00:59:08
thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and box media you can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com pod we'll be back next week for another
00:59:15
breakdown of all things Tech and business care I have a great time moving lucky