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I predict this mega micro penis war is going to get worse and I am here for it. >> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York
00:00:13
Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser >> and I'm Scott Callaway.
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>> Scott, have you recovered from South by Southwest at >> I'm still basking in the glow. I thought
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it was great. >> It was good. Yeah, I had a good time in the end. It was really fun. Um, what was
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your favorite highlight of it? >> My favorite highlight, um, >> besides our time together,
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>> the way Representative Talerico described masculinity and he talks about
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his father, I guess, used to come home on Sunday and immediately change and then mow their lawn and then without
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ever talking about it, just went next door and mowed the lawn of this old ladies and thought and he described
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>> that really struck you. You mentioned it at the show that way. Did you did Did
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you ever mow people's lawns, Scott? >> I used to mow lawns for money, but I I
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didn't do it. I showed up to the house before I mowed a lawn and said, "Hey,
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seven bucks in Ohio and I'll mow your lawn." >> Oh, wow. >> And I had a manual lawn mower and I was
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all of about 120 lbs pushing a manual lawn mower around. >> So you you were not taught to mow
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people's lawns? >> No, I was taught to make money. I My dad was like, "Go make money." My my son got
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a um a job at a taco truck last summer. >> It was so good for him. Um you know, so
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many Anyways, I think chores chores, jobs, and sports. I mean, anyways, and >> anyway, the reason I'm asking is cuz
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it's introspecting when you're introspection. Well, I've gotten I I've
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gotten much more introspective just to today I'm here in Tulum and I've had
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some time to >> really contemplate and I've decided to it's time for me at this age, Cara. It's
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time for me Life is finite. It's time for me to start to start living my dream. So, I'm going to start showing up
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for tests I'm not prepared for naked. >> Well, as always, so you're in the Mark
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Andre school. Have you heard about this situation, Mark? Let me just say what it
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is. Mark Andre, who I really don't like anymore. I didn't like that much then,
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but he's really become such a troll. He said uh on the he's an a famous he's he
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was part of the Netscape browser thing. I wouldn't say he was the only person.
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He did take a lot of credit. Um but uh important entrepreneur in Silicon Valley um and etc. Now he's a venture
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capitalist. On the founders podcast with David Senra, he said, "My goal is zero
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introspection as little as possible. 400 years ago it would never occur to anybody to be introspective like the
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whole idea I mean just all the modern conceptions around introspection and therapy and all the things that kind of
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result uh from that are kind of manufactured 1910s 1920s uh this is very much in line with him being an expert on
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everything. He used to lecture me about things he knew nothing about a lot. Um it all it says to me is this man is in
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desperate need of therapy. Um to you know he's just trying to be like I don't
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think about anything. Um, and I find it I found it very uh dystopian and I find him dystopian in general. Um, but this
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idea that introspection is a weakness again is not masculine. It's not feminine. It's not h human I think in
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some way. >> Yeah. I think it's important to occasionally, you know, do do some sort of I don't
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know pondering. I, you know, ask yourself ask yourself if you could only bring one thing to a desert island, what
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would you bring? And I decided the answer is I wouldn't go. >> No. >> Uh I need edibles streaming media and my
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plane car. >> Mhm. >> Um no. Look, look, in all seriousness, it's as if these guys
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>> Mhm. >> Alman and Andre hired a publicist, the brightest comms person in the world, and
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said, "How do we convince humanity we're bad for humanity?" >> Right. Right. And this notion that
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technology requires less energy to get to a point of critical thinking than a human is just so nihilist and so weird.
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And then introspection is how we move forward as a species. >> It was like Socrates, Plato, Marcus
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Aurelius, like it's been around. He's like, "Oh, it's just the 1910s." He's so
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ignorant. Like the idea introspection is a critical element of all philosophy going back. Also, by the way, Jesus test
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the Bible. It's all about thinking about >> reflecting on how you become a better
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introspection is why we have the Marshall Plan and why people reconnect with their family members. Introspection
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is how you >> try to become a better person and realize the errors of your actions and
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that your actions have ramifications and what can you do to be leave the world a
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better place. It >> Yeah. >> And it's it's indicative again of this
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faright performative. I won't even call it masculinity, but macho that I don't
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care. I just plow ahead because I'm such a baller. >> Yeah. >> It's just so It's just like, okay,
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>> it's crazy. I I I I don't like my grandmother didn't introspect a lot. She
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grew up in the depression, right? She didn't wonder if she was happy. I think
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she was probably could have been happier, right? That kind of thing. And there's there's an element to that. But
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this idea that this the idea of thoughtfulness has not been around since the dawn of time drives me
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crazy. The second thing is look this guy has a very famously doesn't speak to his
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family right like there's all manner of upness that is buried very deep in this particular person who has
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influence on other who has massive influence on everybody else and you know he's like a he's an emotional uh I don't
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want to use you know he's just a tiny little man from a from a soul point of
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view like extraordinarily small um and I find it really just bragging about it is
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is the last is you know he's the one that said we should fight more like we should physically fight like as if he
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could get in a fight with anybody he'd lose in a second but this it's just they
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just you're right they they're trying to be villains or something by the way the
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the main villain in the Marvel movies is quite introspective FYI but go ahead >> well I would argue that probably I mean
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people would say the greatest mind of the 20th century is Einstein but they should take could play take a page from
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the playbook of the greatest >> arguably the greatest technologist >> of the 20th century. And that was
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someone who not only had a vision for technology but but could bring together people to what was at that moment
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develop and deploy the most important technology in history or at least the most profound and that was Oenheimer and
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he was hugely introspective. >> So was Einstein. If you read some of this,
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>> they were hugely introspective. They were they were really worried about what
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about the the ramifications of their actions and how they could spend the rest of their lives trying to, you know,
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they didn't just say the the in introspection isn't some AI guy who vests his shares and then scares the
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out of the world as he pieces out to the cotzora. That is not introspection. Mhm.
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>> Uh Bill Gates for all the Bill Gates is getting and a lot of it is warranted.
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>> He is a he decided I have become the wealthiest person in the world at that
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moment. >> I am smart. What could I do with my resources to impact millions of people?
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And he started distributing. >> He decided I think I can stop malaria in a continent.
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>> That is introspection. >> Yeah. Anyway, it's it's it's led to a
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lot of very funny memes, you know, Marcus Andronicus and then nothing. It's called nothing. What a soulless empty
00:07:31
person. And these are not where we should be getting clues as we go forward. That's just my feeling. And I
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think one of the more damaging figures uh from a from in terms of training young men uh at Silicon Valley is this
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guy. He's not someone to follow. Let me just say I've known him since he was
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very young and he and he's progressed negatively and and backwardly in a way
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that's really quite depressing. Uh oddly enough in in in relation and then we'll
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finish up on this. I had lunch at South by Southwest with Mark Cuban. What a person who has developed in a really He
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was telling me all about his cosplush, the passion around it. >> Um I just was like,
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>> he also looks great, by the way. >> He looks great. Yeah, he's eating clams.
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That's another story. >> Jesus, did he bore you with that story? I had to suffer through that. He buys on
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Amazon. >> Yeah, I Let's not get into it. We We'll have him on to talk about it at some
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point. He's trying to get protein. >> If oysters means GLP1, I believe it. I
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seriously I met with him and Michael Dell and they're both claiming that they're playing a lot of Pedell and I'm
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like your old you could eat you right now. Pedel my ass. >> Pedell. Anyway, they um I just was like
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I had a wonderful talk about uh prescription drugs about life about his kids. Like what a It was such a
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difference like he is the opposite of of like a good man trying to add value. >> Yeah, exactly. Anyway, uh we have to
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move on but Mark honestly stopped all of you. Alex Karp said a number of things stupid things like stop talking all of
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you stop talking because what you say is nonsensical and actually makes you look
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so stupid and pathetic that it's I'm just here to help you on that issue
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anyway >> but look even if you're religion you're supposed to reflect on some of it is
00:09:13
somewhere Jesus >> if Jesus could feed the world with two fishes and a loaf you know if you really
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think about it that's tapas I mean, peace out. Peace out. >> All right, let's move on. I can't do any
00:09:28
better than that. I can't do any better than that. >> Okay. Um, as of this recording, oil
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prices in the morning, >> that's a segue. >> That's a segue in the in a more real
00:09:37
situation. Uh, prices of oils over $119 a barrel at one point following attacks on energy sites in the Gulf. President
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Trump has been lashing out at US allies this week demanding they send warships to help secure the Strait of Hormuz. Uh
00:09:51
the response has been quote global raspberry as one analyst put it. We're seeing also the first resignation over
00:09:57
this war. Counterterrorism official Joe Kent stepped down saying Iran posed no imminent threat. Of course he went on
00:10:03
Tucker Carlson. His he's of that ilk. He has some he has some problems himself.
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But nonetheless, he quickly went on Tucker Carlson to discuss his departure because this is like the train, the
00:10:12
right-wing MAGA train if you're going in one direction. Meanwhile, the Pentagon
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is asking the White House to approve $200 billion request for Congress to fund the Iran war. I think of an entire
00:10:24
I think Joe Biden was 180 billion for like years long wars or whatever. Defense Secretary Pete Hex says just
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said in a briefing that the number could move because it takes money to kill bad
00:10:34
guys. Speaking of introspection, what an idiot. Um, uh, the next move, what happens here? Trump also said this week,
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by the way, that a former president told him he regretted not bombing them, but all the former living presidents denied
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saying that. So, I guess he's talking to himself. I mean, they've denied it.
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Like, he's such a liar. It's astonishing like what this guy does. Um, obviously
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either cognitive or just a liar. I'm not sure. Where do you think what do you
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think's happening here now? Let's have a quick update. Well, I mean, the mother
00:11:05
of all understatements is it's complicated. Look, I think the fatal flaw of the Trump administration is they
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don't recognize our power as a species and as a country. And that is as powerful as we are, we're only a third
00:11:16
of the world's GDP, but because we were seen as the good guys and innovators,
00:11:20
and that we did embrace this notion that if we can make you wealthier and more peaceful,
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ultimately that wealth and peace will return home in the form of you buying our trucks and being our ally. And we
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can put a military base there. And the operating system of 60 or 70% of the world was US laws, military flows of
00:11:41
energy, general rule of law, even democracies, even laws and justice systems were based off the US model. And
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to to his lesser extent, the British model, it just got evolved. We were sort of 2.0. And he's decided, no, with 30%,
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I can go at it alone. And what he's found is all of a sudden he's 1/3 versus
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2/3. And this is just when my we, you know, we warn my son not to take grapefruit juice into the to the living
00:12:07
room with the brand new couch and he tells us, "Don't be an idiot. I can
00:12:11
handle it." And then he screams, "Dad, I need help." And I know exactly what's
00:12:14
happened. It's just >> Yeah, he spilled the grape juice. >> Well, what do you know? We're going to
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I'm going to do this unilaterally. I'm not going to go to the UN. I mean, talk
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>> Gulf won. George Bush put together a coalition of I think 31 countries. He
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got UN authorization and he got the allies to pay 62 of the 707 $70 billion in cost. That war cost
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>> and at great and at great sacrifice for many of them and of course he's been
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downplaying their sacrifice and they're now like literally saying no and by the
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way and if you get come out of NATO fine like they're now at that point I mean
00:12:45
you know whatever >> he asked China for help and by the way >> China's ships are flowing through. So
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the notion that he's going to quote unquote an enemy or nemesis going to people he's been really rude to. I mean
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this is just and they didn't anticipate that they wouldn't be able to count on
00:13:02
their allies. I I >> didn't anticipate the Iran push back the strength of the I mean he was advised by
00:13:10
by the way pretty much stories coming out now are like he was told this he was told this he was told they would do this
00:13:16
they would close the straight moves. like everyone's leaking their the out of things which is really I mean
00:13:22
what's interesting I I know it's the smallest part of it but the lie about
00:13:26
presidents was weird was just weird like why would you say that and then they all
00:13:32
say no and it looks like he's it's a lie or he's talking to himself or whatever
00:13:38
it the whole thing seems like lies come out of his mouth every day now that are easily checkable like easily checkable
00:13:45
lies and that don't really work and so Something's going on. Something's
00:13:49
happening in a way that's I mean, I don't want to give him an excuse. Maybe
00:13:53
he's just a malevolent prick, but it seems problematic that he's leading this
00:13:58
coalition of the one. >> When you hire incompetent conspiracy theorists, which is what Joe Kent is.
00:14:04
>> Mhm. >> I mean, this is very upsetting for me as someone, you know, quite frankly, as a
00:14:09
Jew, and that is >> he immediately said that >> that basically the largest military in
00:14:14
the world in the United States is being manipulated by Jews. Mhm. >> And this just plays into a very
00:14:19
anti-semitic trope being fermented on the far right. And I don't I don't Megan
00:14:24
Kelly, there's a bunch of them, right? >> Yeah. That this is all be this is all
00:14:27
Jews fault. >> Yeah. >> That is just what they were doing. >> That's not helpful.
00:14:32
>> Yeah. >> So, >> it's one thing to be against the war and
00:14:35
I think there's some legitimate like >> or to say has too much influence over. I
00:14:40
get it. >> No, I get it. No, I'm just saying the American first people can say we don't
00:14:43
like wars and but they do always take it right into that. That was that that Tucker Carlson's a dangerous person in
00:14:50
that regard, I'll tell you. Like >> they're doing a video. They're like the
00:14:54
number whatever five at the, >> you know, in our intelligence unit is is saying what what Candace Owens and
00:15:01
Tucker Carlson are saying. It's the Jews. We're being manipulated by the
00:15:05
Jews. >> Yeah. It's problematic. It's problematic. So what So oil prices, what
00:15:10
what is what actual impact is this going to have on the economy as a whole? It's
00:15:14
immediate. I mean, unfortunately, and it always happens. It hurts. It hurts uh middle-income families and lower income.
00:15:22
Already, you're talking about an increase for every dollar increase at the pump. And it looks like we are going
00:15:27
to have about a dollar increase. It's another $530 a year. And low-income families spend almost, get this, 20% of
00:15:34
their income on home and auto energy costs. >> Yeah. And then the the residual effects
00:15:39
of food from everything. Every single >> everything you touch is impacted.
00:15:43
everything got to you using some form of fuel or or is consuming fuel >> and it's going to probably spike
00:15:49
inflation an additional 100 bips um in the short run. So >> speaking speaking of which Jerome Powell
00:15:57
says he'll stay on his Fed chair until his successor is confirmed by the Senate. Even if that's after his term
00:16:02
expires he has every right to. It could be a while. The Senate hasn't even scheduled a hearing for Trump's nominee
00:16:07
Kevin Walsh. GOP Senator Tom Tillis, who I'm talking to uh next week, says he
00:16:11
won't vote on confirmation until the DOJ investigation on Powell is over. They've
00:16:16
they've been handed some um uh court things, Janine Piro and the rest around
00:16:23
Powell. Uh for his part, and they're appealing it, I think for his part, Powell also says he'll stay on as Fed
00:16:28
governor, which I said he would, remember I said this until the investigation is well and truly over. Um
00:16:34
this is ex I thought he would do this. He looks like he ran out of a long time ago. Um, and well and truly over
00:16:40
means he could stay as long as he is a while there on that Fed governor thing. You know, as you noted many times,
00:16:46
enormous influence. So, he's the this is the opposite of what Trump wanted and
00:16:51
he's stuck with Powell and Tillis, I can tell you, is not give I mean is not
00:16:56
stopping at all at all. So >> I think if it had been a different president who' demonstrated more grace
00:17:03
to him, I don't doubt he would have stepped down or if he'd said to him,
00:17:07
"Listen, I want you to be my chief economic advisor. I I you know, I have a
00:17:12
even something more important for you." But keep in mind, as long as Jerome Pal
00:17:15
is in the room, I've said this. There's there's how you think there's the
00:17:19
governance structure and then there's actually how boards and body politic works. And this is how this is
00:17:26
essentially a board of directors. This is how they work. >> There's a bunch of them
00:17:31
>> in every board. There's 12 people, and there's two people who matter.
00:17:35
>> There's the largest shareholder, which doesn't doesn't uh apply here. And then there's someone
00:17:41
who's so smart that everyone they don't speak a lot. They listen a lot, but when they speak, everyone has a
00:17:46
tendency to nod their head. and that tell me the whatever it is the other 11 governors are going to when when Jerome
00:17:54
Pal says you know who whatever the the chair is the person who >> well he's going to run it I don't think
00:18:00
I think Tillis isn't G I I know Telus isn't giving up he said it he's like he
00:18:04
Tillis now suddenly as you said his balls and he's like no I'm going to do
00:18:08
the right thing for he's very offended by the Jerome Powell thing I know that
00:18:12
and so I think it's he's a business person he's a really well he had a you
00:18:17
know he was even though you know he sounds like he's like from the country smart guy
00:18:21
>> very smart guy is very stuck on this Powell not putting uh wash through um
00:18:27
obviously he helped take down Christine um I think there's there's such a push
00:18:32
back not just from our allies abroad but here and if you're someone like Tom
00:18:36
Tillis and can stop this you do it like why not what's what's the negative for
00:18:41
him there's nothing because he's now because Trump tried pushed him out essentially of the Senate and now he's
00:18:47
an enormous position of power and and influence the same thing. And so Powell's Powell is not going to bring
00:18:53
rates down, by the way, especially with inflation up. So Trump has gotten the opposite of everything he wanted. So
00:19:00
>> no, Cal said there was a 99% likelihood they would not cut rates. But where I
00:19:05
was headed was I would bet 98% of the decisions in the Fed from the board of governors, regardless of who's in
00:19:14
charge, regardless of who takes the mic, uh the new chair, whatever Jerome Pal said was probably the right move in that
00:19:22
meeting is what they're going to do. >> Yeah. This is the guy that had a Marylu
00:19:29
Retin like stick the landing of the economy where he basically tamed inflation >> by 600 basis points while not going into
00:19:37
recession. like no one >> in economics. >> No, >> you know, and
00:19:44
>> I think Worsh is perfectly qualified, but Trump now has Jerome Powell forever
00:19:47
like especially the dumb attack >> another six or 12 years or something or
00:19:51
whatever. Basically, >> he's going to stay there as the as the head of it. It's just Anyway, it's it's
00:19:57
>> good for him. >> Good for him. >> I think he is I think he is lit the
00:20:01
first hero. >> The first Medal of Freedom recipient. >> Yeah, he's a hero. One, Democrats love
00:20:06
to show that they're bipartisan. It'll probably be Vice President Spence will
00:20:10
be first, the first one, and the second one will be Jerome Pal. >> Vice President Spence. Who's
00:20:16
>> um Pence? I'm sorry. >> Oh, Vice President Pence. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. The two of them. Oh,
00:20:22
Pence does not get enough recogn. >> Yes. Daddy. Dad. Father. I like father
00:20:29
at this point. Father is actually father and Powell. No, that's that'll work for
00:20:34
me. Uh, okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll say
00:20:38
goodbye to the metaverse. We hardly knew you at all. >> Support for the show comes from
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mongodb.com/build. Scott, we're back with more news. And Meta is shutting down its VR metaverse
00:22:31
on June 15th. And legless people are gone. The VR social network Horizon Worlds never drew more than a couple
00:22:38
hundred thousand active users a month. I mean, I think I think it was like a thousand were using it by the end. Some
00:22:44
users reported that daily active users actually dropped to under a thousand. Who are those people? I want to meet
00:22:49
those people. Over 70 billion was spent on the project over time. Uh you have talked about this for a long time. I
00:22:56
never like the metaverse. >> So some breaking news that broke after the recording. Cara, we just learned
00:23:01
that Meta is not shutting down VR support for Horizon Worlds. That's according to an Instagram post from Meta
00:23:07
CTO Andrew Bosworth. He said there was uh open quote a lot of misinformation about the company's plans. We announced,
00:23:15
hey, we're moving away from Horizon Worlds in VR. And the headline is that Horizon is dead. He said it's not. And
00:23:21
likewise, VR is not dead. We're continuing to invest tremendously. Uh, this is weak sauce. We up.
00:23:29
Nana is on life support. And despite the fact she might have brain waves, we're
00:23:32
pulling the plug soon. This is, in my view, an attempt to uh backtrack and not totally freak out the remaining
00:23:40
employees before they find them another job or lay them off. This is this is dead. uh in my view and uh you know uh
00:23:50
an attempt to if you will say no there's still hope when they believe uh and
00:23:56
every indication here is that uh this thing is maybe in hospice but be clear it it's it's on the green mile of that
00:24:06
let's move on >> while the press was fawning over the idea you were not impressed let's take a
00:24:10
look at what you've said over the years >> I was the original hater of headsets and
00:24:15
metaverse Web 3.0, the metaverse. It's supposed to be the next dimension of the
00:24:20
internet. >> I just love the fact that Mark Zuckerberg is is showing up with
00:24:24
literally the biggest thud in history. >> I am proud to announce that starting
00:24:29
today, our company is now Meta. >> I think this thing is already a giant flaming bag of If it was working,
00:24:38
they'd be putting out all sorts of numbers and press releases about people signing up. You know, by the end of the
00:24:44
decade, we hope to basically get to around a billion people in the metaverse doing hundreds of of dollars of commerce
00:24:50
each. >> If I were to try and devise a strategy to weaken the corpus that is Facebook, I
00:24:56
would invent this distraction called the metaverse and specifically the Oculus to
00:25:01
pour billions of dollars down a single. >> They pivoted their entire company to the
00:25:05
metaverse. I think I mean if I had tried to figure out a way to kneecap Meta which is a net negative for society I
00:25:11
couldn't come up with a strategy as brilliant as this. >> Nice call Scott let me just say that.
00:25:16
Second of all I didn't like Meta because the legless it was weird. Remember when
00:25:19
he introduced it was so weird and awkward at the time. Um, one of the things that's astonishing here is that
00:25:26
he could have this much of a loss and still they're doing so well elsewhere um
00:25:32
that this $70 billion loss doesn't matter and he's fed while other people
00:25:36
who have losses get slapped back to but this is such a failure. Please, please take a lap and conclude this chapter of
00:25:45
Mark Zuckerberg's life for us. care of the fact that $70 billion in capex got
00:25:50
taken into a street and burned and that people didn't want to live on a legless
00:25:53
future where they didn't want to be in a place where 40% of them were within 20
00:25:58
minutes nauseous or that they further separate from human I'm shocked Cara I'm
00:26:02
shocked this didn't work I I had big hopes for it because anything Mark Zuckerberg is clearly right
00:26:09
uh the scariest thing I think the scariest thing about our economy other than the income inequality is the fact
00:26:15
that we have now tied the fate of the S&P and the 10% wealthiest households who control the economy now and
00:26:23
government. We've tied it to our ability to evolve a new species of asocial asexual males and some females.
00:26:31
And the thing is this is this is a healthy gag reflex for mammals. one, on a very instinctive level, it's very
00:26:41
uncomfortable, especially for women, but for everybody, when you're walking on
00:26:45
the sidewalk alone and you hear footsteps behind you or the side of you, >> because the things you can eat and the
00:26:52
things that can eat you don't come straight at you. They have a habit of coming from behind you or from the side.
00:26:57
>> And so your peripheral vision, and the reason why billboards on the highway are
00:27:01
still a big business, is you notice in your peripheral vision. You're very subconsciously conscious of what's in
00:27:06
your peripheral vision or what isn't. >> And when it's blocked with a headset,
00:27:11
>> you feel uncomfortable. >> So, no, they never spoke to an anthropologist
00:27:17
to say, "All right, what happens when we invent a technology that from the moment
00:27:21
they turn it on, it's like if you turned on your PC and it made you feel slightly
00:27:25
nauseous by turning it off." >> Yes. Remember all those um those all all
00:27:29
of that stuff? Remember they showed it at CES years ago where you looked at a TV that was jumping out at you? It was
00:27:34
sickening and no one and never. It was a big thing one year at CES and then it wasn't. Let me ask you I'm going to ask
00:27:40
you a more challenging question. All right. Look, we're going to have immersive worlds, right, in some way.
00:27:44
And some of it is kind of cool. I remember 20 years ago, Walt and I went to Korea and went to either Sony or LG
00:27:51
and we were looking at these headsets in movies. Pretty cool. I remember thinking
00:27:56
that. And I wasn't nauseous. I went to the sphere this week which I loved. I
00:28:00
saw the Dorothy thing and I thought it was wonderful and we were all in the big room and I have to say it was a lovely
00:28:06
communal experience because everyone was laughing and they dropped apples out of
00:28:10
the sky and everything else. There is something I want you to say what will work here because there is an immersive
00:28:17
experience with screens that is very satisfying. What would you if you had to pick a business in this in the immersive
00:28:26
screens either on your head or in a situation like the sphere which I think is a spectacular achievement um in a lot
00:28:32
of ways and it's also beautiful on the outside cuz it's delightful. Um what do
00:28:37
you what do you imagine that to be? >> They're I don't think they'll ever be
00:28:41
big businesses care. I think they're niche experiences. I think that our species has gotten really used to and
00:28:48
comfortable with as bad as it is this world. So IMAX is an immersive experience, but it's never really lived
00:28:55
up to the potential outlined. >> It's a good business though. It's a good
00:28:58
business. >> Yeah, it's been quite frankly over the last 40 years, it's been a shitty
00:29:01
business. IMAX >> relative to the cost, it's been okay. I love IMAX every time. That's what I do
00:29:08
when I take my I love seeing in IMAX. >> I'm going to see Project Hail Mary
00:29:12
tomorrow night. >> It's a niche business. The only place I want an immersive experience is when I'm
00:29:18
having my teeth cleaned by a hot single mother, Brazilian single mother. And then she puts on headset that I can
00:29:24
watch, heated rivalry, >> right? >> And she, you know, and then I start
00:29:28
crying cuz I start thinking about my mom and I'm under the influence. I tell her
00:29:31
to when she says, >> she says 1 to 10 nitrous. I go 12 baby. >> 12 baby. I'll have it. So, but you don't
00:29:38
you like look, let me can I tell you what I liked about like you're right. They're experiential things. One of the
00:29:43
things that was cool about Spheres, I have seen Wizard of Oz a million times recently too because my little kids are
00:29:49
now watching it. So, it's not something I want to see again and again. But one
00:29:53
of the things I thought was quite beautiful was the ability to see things in the movie that I never saw like some
00:29:58
of the beautiful costumes, some of the beautiful, you know, set design and oddly enough the faces of all the people
00:30:05
that weren't Dorothy like or the or the main characters. It's like I found
00:30:10
myself looking at these beautiful faces from another era, right? Like there was two twins there that I never noticed.
00:30:16
And so one of the things I found it wasn't just everyone was like, "Oh, the
00:30:20
tornado." And I was like, "That was cool." But what was beautiful was I
00:30:24
could really see things in a way that I appre in a way I appreciated. So it there is something valuable about
00:30:30
immersive in some way like travel I suppose if or or when you go to a theme park and you you get on one of those
00:30:37
rides that you like you know you go you soar past the Golden Gate Bridge. I love
00:30:41
all those things. >> No look going into another world you feel like an explorer. It's it's sensory
00:30:47
overload. It's really exciting and then you want out. >> Yeah. >> Escape escape room is correctly named.
00:30:54
>> You wouldn't you wouldn't want to live in this sphere. Your body can't handle
00:30:58
that much sens sensory stimulation. And the sphere, by the way, similar to IMAX,
00:31:03
>> an amazing product, >> it's not doing well economically. >> Yeah.
00:31:08
>> So, the idea or even the ultimate sensory experience, the ultimate moment
00:31:13
of awe supposedly according to astronauts is to go into space and see the world >> from another perspective. But guess
00:31:19
what? What's the first thing they want to do after a week? >> They want to get home.
00:31:23
>> Yeah. So what what I think I wish technology was more focused on I hate
00:31:30
this notion that we need to colonize Mars. No, the real genius here is something that's going to make this
00:31:35
place a little bit more habitable. >> I'm in Tulum staring out at palm trees
00:31:40
and coconuts and the sand, the sugary sand, >> and I'm in awe and I'm comfortable
00:31:46
>> and this is the only universe I want to be in. >> Yeah. No, I know it's I've never wanted
00:31:50
to go to the space anyway. It it look it's a disaster. Mark, you you were wrong and Scott was right. That's all I
00:31:55
have to say. Speaking of scaling back, OpenAI is scaling back on projects and focusing on coding and business uh
00:32:01
users. Pressure for the change comes from competitors like Anthropic, which you and I have been talking about,
00:32:05
dominating the business AI market. Employees also felt the company's do everything strategy led to a lack of
00:32:11
focus. Speaking of which, uh, OpenAI delayed the launch of the adult mode, which would allow sexually explicit
00:32:16
conversations due to concerns from advisers over mental health risks. You think also of concern, an age prediction
00:32:22
system that has been mclassifying minors as adults 12% of the time. The feature which the company still plans to release
00:32:28
eventually would be text only. Um this is all the influence of Fiji Simo uh who is the um is is the new top executive
00:32:36
there. Very similar when Errol Schmidt came to Google. They they were sort of chaotic and did everything the two
00:32:42
founders Larry and Sergey. Um and then they brought uh Eric in to really clean it up. seems sort of basic this you know
00:32:49
this this executive but they do have done made like a million stupid announcements and it does remind one of
00:32:55
Google in that regard thoughts >> you're exactly right it's remember when
00:33:00
Google was doing like trying to cure death and then I I feel like Eric brought in managerial competence and how
00:33:06
to scale an organization but Ruth Pat showed up and said all right mom is home >> fun time's over the dog's pregnant and
00:33:13
the garage is on fire I'm in charge now >> y And this is the right move for open
00:33:18
AI. And that is and by the way, and this will go to my prediction, Anthropic is now worth more than OpenAI. I don't care
00:33:25
what the last mark is on a preferred funding, but Anthropic has surged to 19 billion in annual recurring revenue up
00:33:34
from 14 billion just a couple weeks ago. 6 billion in AR was added just in February. Open AI AR was 20 billion at
00:33:43
the end of 2025. And here's the key. It's all about the enterprise because they're the only ones
00:33:48
that are willing to make these huge investments. And an and get this car anthropic enterprise market share has
00:33:53
increased to 32% surpassing OpenAI's 25%. And since 2023, enterprise AI revenue has exploded from
00:34:04
1.7 billion >> to 37 billion. Yeah, they've got to be the open AI is really
00:34:09
>> and then the other the other the other staggering statistic here that is why
00:34:13
open AI is focusing which is the right thing to do >> is anthropic is now capturing
00:34:20
>> three out of four new spending in enterprise AI. >> So they're getting 73% of all spending
00:34:28
among companies buying AI tools for the first time. >> Yeah. >> And 10 weeks ago the split with open AI
00:34:34
was 5050. So get this get this hag Seth >> it was 6040 in open AI's favor as
00:34:42
recently as early December from so from December to now it's gone from 6040 to
00:34:49
20 to 2773. >> Yeah. >> So they are they are literally losing the enterprise market.
00:34:56
>> Yeah. So it's starting to feel like open is Netscape not Google. Right. That's
00:35:00
how it >> that's an interesting analogy you've seen. I just I was there when Google was
00:35:04
the first bout of chaos was at the beginning and there was you know there was a cover of Fortune magazine chaos at
00:35:10
Google and of course Ruth also shut down all their all manner they had so many ridiculous they were doing and they
00:35:16
could do it just like Mark with with the metaverse because they had all this money but it was like dumb like it was
00:35:22
at the time when they would have you in and I was always like this seems dumb like why are you doing this like why
00:35:28
don't you stick with your business and they just wanted to be more creative or
00:35:31
more something more interesting in some fashion. But it's really interesting
00:35:35
because this is at a time when I think you know anthropics been under pressure from the government but in the end they
00:35:42
will soar and Pete Hagsath will be a you know a a sad little footnote a sad little drunken footnote in our history.
00:35:50
Um anyway we'll see what happens. Um speaking of someone who won't be a footnote I would say is Bob Iger stepped
00:35:56
down as Disney CEO again. Iger passed the baton to his successor Josh Demorro at Disney's annual shareholder meeting
00:36:03
this week. Tomorrow, a 28-year-old veteran of the company, was most recently head of Disney Experiences,
00:36:08
which includes parks, cruises, and resorts. Iger is set to stay on as an adviser and board member until the end
00:36:13
of 2026. Not very long. It's unclear what he'll do after that. Before the
00:36:17
last time he left, he did a bunch of advising and sailing around on a boat in the South Seas. Um, uh, I last time he
00:36:24
retired, which I said he wasn't going to stay retired, I asked him whether he
00:36:27
planned to get into politics. Let's listen to what he told me in 2022. Would you ever run for office?
00:36:34
>> Uh, I'm not planning to run for office. >> That is that a no?
00:36:38
>> That's just what I said. I'm not. >> Okay. All right. Fine. I think you are.
00:36:41
Um, so last thing. Um, you should I I don't usually I usually do not tell another white guy, "Oh, please run for
00:36:48
office. We don't have enough of you." But I think you would be an excellent
00:36:51
because I think you'd be an excellent politician because I don't think you
00:36:53
give a Uh anyway, I don't think he's going to run for office. Actually, I don't I can't imagine he's going to do
00:36:58
that. Um but what do you think his next act will will be? Uh I mean, he certainly had his ups and downs and the
00:37:05
stock has not reflected much of it. Although I do think he did a lot around digital. I think he did a lot around
00:37:10
streaming. Um I think he was a very good CEO for much of his tenure and not so good in other things. I think probably
00:37:18
the Fox purchase is one people point to as being problematic, but in general, pretty good tenure. Um, especially
00:37:25
around streaming. I I think that he made those moves. Um, what do you think his next act should be?
00:37:30
>> Hit the golf course and enjoy his life. And I I would call challenge on his
00:37:34
tenure, Cara, because >> Okay. >> The last 10 years have been the most
00:37:38
prosperous in the history of the world for American companies, and his stock is below where it was 10 years ago. And at
00:37:44
the end of the day, as a CEO, >> that's your what you're evaluated.
00:37:47
That's your kind of metrics 1, two, and three. He quite frankly, he really up. He's the guy who went to
00:37:54
Vietnam, completed his tour honorably, came home with medals pinned to his chest. He could be a viable candidate
00:38:00
for the Democratic nomination right now, but he's more he looks less like Mark
00:38:04
Cuban and more like Cheryl Samberg. >> And that is his second tenure. First
00:38:09
off, he was heckling from the cheap seats. He left and never really left the room, but convinced the board, as far as
00:38:14
I can tell, to fire the new guy and put me back in like some returning hero. And
00:38:18
he has had huge wins in his face. But Disney has become Disney has gone from being probably the
00:38:26
most iconic company in the creative community. To a certain extent, it represents what's happened to the
00:38:30
creative community. And that is distinct of how incredible it is and their great
00:38:35
IP and their great creativity. It's been bad for shareholders and it's probably
00:38:39
been a difficult place to work the last 10 years. And he did he did make a lot of the right moves. He launched a
00:38:46
streaming network. He invested in the parks. But at the end of the day, his last 10 years, there was a there was
00:38:52
never a clear succession path. He started to feel a little bit like I forget the name of that guy at City CR
00:38:58
that anytime someone got near him, got shot in the head. So he leaves. He's very likable. He's very smooth. Had he
00:39:07
stayed away and then just let someone else run with it, I think he'd probably
00:39:12
be a cabinet member, maybe even by, you know, in the next administration at a minimum. Now he's Now he's the guy that
00:39:21
quite frankly took Disney. I he he didn't take the stock anywhere. I get that. I I understand. I think doing the
00:39:28
streaming stuff was critical to its future and he definitely pushed that through. Like I I was there watching. I
00:39:33
mean, he made a number of dumb digital moves over the years. They kept changing Disney Bu a Vista when he I mean, I was
00:39:39
I wrote stories on every one of them and but I do think directionally very few people leaned into digital and streaming
00:39:46
the way he did, right? And I think >> Oh, I don't know. I would argue Netflix
00:39:49
leaned in. >> Well, Netflix, of course. No, no. Yes. No, they should have bought Netflix when
00:39:52
they had the chance and they everybody had the chance at one point, but yeah, you're right. Netflix was in the in the
00:39:58
right position. But you are dragging around a legacy organization makes makes it very hard
00:40:03
>> a legacy organization that had the world's best IP. I mean >> Netflix so okay so Disney in the last 10
00:40:12
years has market returns of of zero and Netflix is up four I'm sorry it's up
00:40:23
600%. Yeah. Yep. >> Granted, the other studios have not fared any better, >> right?
00:40:30
>> But with that IP, with the Parks or Cash Flow, >> Yeah. Look, Bob, what's the lesson here?
00:40:41
The lesson is the following, and I think about this a lot. Mhm. >> It is very hard to pull off the ultimate
00:40:48
gangster move for your brand when you're in a position of power and you're doing
00:40:51
well, and that is to leave the party too early. Um, and that is people have a tendency
00:40:59
when they're doing well and they're so iconic as Bob Iger is and was to think
00:41:04
to just stay too long. >> Yeah. >> You want to leave the stage while people
00:41:08
are clapping. You want to leave a party 10 minutes too early. You want to leave the Vanity Fair Oscar party at midnight,
00:41:14
not at 4:00 a.m. when you're wandering around alone. And it's clear Emily
00:41:16
Rodikowski is not going to speak to you. >> Was she there? >> By the way, at one point I was sitting
00:41:23
at the bar. >> We didn't talk about this cuz you were blabbing away to all your other
00:41:26
>> I was sitting at the bar, no joke, in between John Ham, who's quite handsome,
00:41:31
and Jacob Allerty, who is even more handsome and much taller. >> Yeah. Emily started walking towards the
00:41:37
bar and all I could think of is there's no way she's coming to me right now. Yeah. No way. I'm like
00:41:43
>> I'm like the price is right. >> This is the real Emily. You saw her.
00:41:48
>> Oh yeah. Trust me. I saw her. >> Okay. >> Uh yeah. By the way, she looks she looks
00:41:53
pretty good. She looks pretty. >> So wait, what happened? Wait, the I I only want the Ratikowski part. Go ahead.
00:42:00
>> Nothing. She did. She just walked up and had a drink. And at some point I'm like,
00:42:02
I I want to be the professor, not the stalker. >> So, uh, but my favorite moment is
00:42:08
>> You didn't say hello. >> I'm too intimidated. >> Oh my god.
00:42:12
>> I said hi to I said hi to Morin Dow and Caitlyn Collins. Those are my friends.
00:42:16
>> I saw that. >> Those are That's who I hang out with. And the Smartless guys. Those guys are
00:42:21
fun. I like those guys. >> Those are fun. >> And they they're like they feel sorry.
00:42:24
The only people that come up to me are like think of me as an intellect. They think, "Oh, it's so cute. They have a
00:42:29
professor here. Let's go be nice to him. That's our charity for the night. And
00:42:33
everybody comes up to me and says, I have sons and I very much appreciate your work. And then they say, oh, can I
00:42:37
meet, you know, can can can I meet Jud Appatile now? I mean, I'm convinced half
00:42:43
the people half the people talking to me >> Yeah. >> were checking themselves out in the
00:42:48
reflection of my glasses. >> Oh no. >> I can't believe you didn't speak to
00:42:52
Emily Rat. >> By the way, that party. >> Yeah. >> Vanity Fair.
00:42:56
>> Yeah. >> Those people are geniuses. I'm going to subscribe twice. Okay. The the the
00:43:02
environment they pulled together that night. >> Yeah. It's nice. It's a nice part.
00:43:05
>> I would I think it's the most aspirational environment I've ever been
00:43:08
in in my life. I just couldn't get over the wardrobe, the environment, the food,
00:43:13
the vibe. >> You've always done a good job. >> I just saw it uh the new editor in
00:43:17
Unbelievable. >> Mark. Yeah. >> Yeah. Mark just is an amazing handsome
00:43:21
guy, too. >> Yeah. I have to say they've always had a good party. They they've been good at
00:43:25
that under under all their different editors. I think it's been >> And I got to hang out with Larry David.
00:43:29
It's like angry meet depressed. Depressed meet angry. >> Oh my god, you look alike. What
00:43:33
happened? Was there like a moment? >> Larry and I are friends now. >> Oh, you're friends.
00:43:37
>> We totally got along. Okay. All right. >> Yeah, we hit it off. And by the way, the
00:43:41
Larry David Show is really the David Larry David Show. He's like, that's
00:43:45
exactly who he is. >> He's like, what's the point of an Oscar? He just starts into a and you're
00:43:50
like, okay, here we are. >> He has a new show that looks hysterical that he did with the Obamas about
00:43:54
history. >> My very lovely wife, too. Anyways, I very much >> I don't know. Was Bob Iger there?
00:44:01
Because it was >> I did not see Bob. I did not sense a Kashmir sweater or tuxedo anywhere.
00:44:06
>> Uh but the thing is you walk in and they like do you want to do a red carpet in
00:44:10
Morningington? It's like I'm not doing a red carpet. I'm like I am so doing the
00:44:13
red carpet and they have >> Yeah. So you had >> hundreds of photographers and there's
00:44:17
three X's and I guess you're supposed to go to one X. >> Yeah. >> And take pictures.
00:44:23
>> Yeah. >> I didn't know that. So, I go to the first X and they're like, "Hello,
00:44:26
professor and they're all nice." And I'm like, "Now I'm going to go to the second
00:44:29
X and sit here and pose. >> Get the out of here." >> And then I go to the third X and by the
00:44:32
time I got to the third X, I realized everyone's like, "What the is this
00:44:35
guy doing?" >> And one of the one of the photographers just out of a moment of like feeling
00:44:41
sorry for me, kind of waved me along. He's like, "You're supposed to go to
00:44:44
just one X." >> And I turned red. I'm a bad celebrity. >> Oh my god. Can I ask you one question?
00:44:49
Did you see Jeff Bezos? He was there looking. >> I saw him with Lauren. I thought they
00:44:53
looked great. I don't >> No, I didn't. I thought they >> I don't mind Jeff's midlife crisis. I'm
00:44:58
here for it. >> I know. But did you say hello? >> I said hello to all three of them. I
00:45:01
mean, I said Yeah. No. No. I said hello. >> Um I did not. I'm tell I'm intimidated.
00:45:07
Unless people come up to me, I'm intimidated. I don't like >> gone and said Carara says hello. That
00:45:11
that in that one you could have done that. >> That's like hi. My rich father knows
00:45:16
you. I just don't want to do that. I don't know. >> He doesn't like me. I would be bad. He
00:45:19
would >> I literally freaked out at about midnight. And I'm like, this is the best
00:45:23
party of my life. I need to go home and take a Xanax and just recover from all the I feel like a kid who candy store
00:45:29
for 8 hours. >> Did you? I can't believe my only note is I can't believe you didn't say hello to
00:45:34
Emily Ratowski. You're a loser. You're a loser. Anyway, Bob Iger's next act very
00:45:39
quickly. >> He'll go on a couple boards and he'll enjoy his life and he deserves to do all
00:45:43
of this. Hang out with his lovely wife and speak at USC's film school. >> He's got to do something else. I think
00:45:49
it's something else. Let me tell you, when he was >> Bob is 74, 73. >> He is in really good shape. When he
00:45:55
looks really good, when he was in the last one, he texted me far too much. And I was like, I think you need to do
00:45:59
something else cuz I think he's got another thing in him. I don't know what
00:46:02
it is. >> I know. He's 75. Yeah. >> Yeah. He could be in the cabinet. He
00:46:06
could be in a >> Well, what is that? 77 head. Yeah. >> Could be the head. Could he be the
00:46:12
commerce secretary? I don't know. >> I don't know. He probably doesn't want
00:46:14
to. What do you need that for anyway? If he wants to help people, >> ambassador to France and throw amazing
00:46:19
parties at like the the US residents. >> That's perfect. Ambassador to France.
00:46:25
Let's do it. Bob, we're going to send you to France. Anyway, let's go on a
00:46:28
quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Khi facing criminal charges.
00:46:32
Your favorite groups of people there, Scott. >> Support for the show comes from BMC.
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00:47:35
Scott, we're back with more news. Kelshi is facing criminal charges in Arizona
00:47:39
where prosecutors say the prediction market platform illegally let people bet without a gambling license. Keli says
00:47:44
the charges are meritless and said they should be regulated federally rather than by individual states. The case is
00:47:49
the first criminal prosecution against a prediction market company. It's more to
00:47:52
come. I actually when I was at South by South met met with the California Attorney General who today um did a
00:47:59
lawsuit uh one of the lawsuits against the Nextar um the Nextar whatever that ridiculous merger was. Um in any case
00:48:08
this is the states have been regulating gambling for year like forever for decades. So it's not meritless. Um so
00:48:15
what what do you think does this because what was interesting another story popped up which I found fascinating.
00:48:20
Times of Israel reporter received death threats from gamblers on poly market after reporting an Iranian missile
00:48:26
strike that affected a high stakes prediction market bet. Some betters tried to pressure him to change the
00:48:30
story so the market would resolve in their favor. And let me just say it feel this is a topic people are really
00:48:36
interested in. I'll read an email from one of our listeners. I'm a journalist
00:48:39
and a fan of the show. I don't understand why I'm hearing Kelie percentages cited during the show as
00:48:44
it's anything. It's people guessing. I think it's more harmful than helpful.
00:48:47
That's you doing it, Scott. I don't do that. I agree with you. Um what do you
00:48:50
think about these markets shifting from predicting events to actively influencing them in certain given the
00:48:56
gaming part easily gamed uh unregulated bad actors it is gambling um and gambling is very well regulated. So what
00:49:07
do you think about that? >> I think there's some truth to all of that. I I'm this is one of those things
00:49:11
I'm hugely conflicted by because I am absolutely fascinated with the data where I would push back on the listener
00:49:18
is oh no this data is incredibly insightful um the wisdom this is the wisdom of crowds this is this does illuminate
00:49:26
whenever I'm looking at political races whenever I'm looking at interest rate
00:49:31
movements I go to I go to >> a trailing indicator you don't think it's a trailing indicator
00:49:35
>> it's pretty much up to date and the thing about money and the thing about
00:49:38
looking at Typically the people who did this stuff were were academics, economists or an investment banking
00:49:46
analyst. All of them are conflicted. All of them want to catastrophize because it
00:49:50
makes us look smarter. All of us have third party influences. Nothing is more amoral and pure than money. It just when
00:49:58
someone bets on something, it really shows you what they really think is going to happen. And if you look at it's
00:50:05
these comp these speculative markets, speculation markets or prediction markets have essentially put pollsters
00:50:10
into a certain extent investment banking analysts out of work because guess what?
00:50:14
They're much >> kind of I I would push back on that. I just met with a bunch of pollsters on
00:50:17
this topic, but go ahead. >> In my opinion, they're done. They if you look at if you look at if you look at
00:50:21
the prediction markets record versus pollsters in the last election, the prediction markets kicked their ass.
00:50:28
Absolutely. I love the data. I am swimming in the data. It's one of the first things I do before I get on a show
00:50:36
is I look at I look at Cali data. Cal I'm totally conflicted because at the same time
00:50:43
>> Mhm. >> there's a really good argument that this is just gambling. Now what
00:50:48
>> what's happening is they're being charged with four counts of election
00:50:50
wagering. >> Um is the the debate is over the fundamental definition of gambling
00:50:57
versus event contracts. and Arizona charges claim that putting money on a contingent future event or occurrence is
00:51:03
illegal. But at the same time, Car, if that's true, then traditional options
00:51:09
would be illegal. And that here's the problem or the issue. Gambling and tapping into a prefrontal
00:51:19
cortex, an immature prefrontal cortex that is dopah hungry and susceptible, uh, in some ways there's just no getting
00:51:26
around it. feels predatory and unhealthy. So what do you do? Do you infantilize? I think Khi is trying to be
00:51:33
the the clean the cleanest best lit place of this. They're not doing contracts on things like war
00:51:40
>> whereas Poly Market is off offshore and Kelsey is trying to get licensed by the
00:51:45
same people who license the options exchange. >> But I I want to hear what you think. I
00:51:52
have no more clarity around. >> I think the states have been regulating gambling forever. So I think that's
00:51:56
nonsense that they should if this if gambling is going on they need to it's it reminds me
00:52:01
>> they're approving it. They're approving it everywhere >> proving it in different places.
00:52:05
>> States have been approving gambling all over the place. >> They are but so they need to be
00:52:09
regulated in the same way. Like it's it's my thing with everything. It's like
00:52:12
if open is giving legal, medical or psychological advice, they need to be subject to the same rules people are
00:52:20
right the same everybody. Like I I was in Vegas for a second. I have to tell you you're absolutely right. It's dead.
00:52:26
Vegas is dead. Like I >> You need to be in Vegas. Vegas is in your pocket.
00:52:29
>> That's right. I was like I literally like Oh my god, Scott was right. It was
00:52:32
so freaky to be in Vegas without people. It felt like I was in like Plurabus, right? It was so weird. And you could
00:52:39
feel the the innovation of a place that is just with these big rooms and the casinos empty. It's weird. And so it's
00:52:47
it's definitely hurting businesses, right? these kind of things, whether it's sports betting online or this kind
00:52:52
of thing, there's they need to be regulated the same way everybody else is. And and states have every right to
00:52:58
do this. This is this is not and maybe there should be federal gambling laws, but there haven't been really.
00:53:04
>> I think that would be good. I think they would want that. I think they want some
00:53:06
regulation. >> Yes. >> But let me ask you let me ask you a more old tech company said, "Oh, we please
00:53:11
bring us regulation." >> I think I actually think they're I think
00:53:14
they're I think they would actually please bring us regulation. Let me ask you this. You have sons.
00:53:20
>> I think about this a lot. Let's be clear, much of this is gambling.
00:53:25
>> Yeah. >> Uh and and it and but at the same time, do you infantilize children? And I I I
00:53:31
know firsthand as someone who appreciates data. There is real value in this data.
00:53:37
>> There is. It can also be easily gained. So easily in it. There's a lot of potential for
00:53:43
insider trading. But the more liquid markets, people are more greedy. Anyway, huge potential for insider trading. I
00:53:49
get it. But let me ask you this. >> Mhm. >> Do you think it should be they should be
00:53:54
put out of business, regulated, or let to just run free? >> Regulated. >> And what does that mean?
00:54:00
>> I'm not sure. I'm not I'm not an expert on this, but I feel like how are g I
00:54:03
want to know how gambling things are regulated and how >> age getting to 21 would be one good
00:54:08
start, right? >> Possibly. Yes. 21. It's interesting. Yes. Yes. Yes. actually on certain
00:54:14
parts, other parts it's fine. But yes, agegating would be one thing and it's
00:54:18
not infantilizing. We do it all the time with with with real businesses. And so what
00:54:25
>> foreign, alcohol, military, >> what upsets me is we're different. All
00:54:29
it's the same it's the same song and dance from all internet companies. We're
00:54:33
different. We don't deserve the same. And they get unfair advantage here. Um
00:54:38
as to >> who gets unfair advantage. >> These these these markets get unfair
00:54:41
advantage. It made me very uncomfortable, for example, when uh CNN and others sign deals with them because
00:54:49
I'm like because I don't think they know how to use them properly. That's the
00:54:52
other thing. It can be so >> it's not reporting like it's not it's
00:54:56
some it's an indicator. It's a data point, but it's not I guess I don't like
00:55:01
them doing polls either. So, I guess I I just I find it very weak and it can be very influential in a way. And so I just
00:55:09
feel like it it it obviously needs to have some regulatory thing with my sons. They don't actually they're not they're
00:55:14
not big bettors. I don't I'm not I don't know why. I mean I I get that why like I
00:55:19
was in Vegas for two days and I didn't bet once. Like I was like I walked right
00:55:23
through the casinos. But that's me. Um but I just feel like it's the death
00:55:27
threat. This reporter thing was a really interesting thing. Like this this has implications that have been around since
00:55:34
the dawn of time. The these and and they think they're different. And so how I
00:55:38
think we need to have more transparency into how they're doing things. I think
00:55:42
they should have you know they shouldn't bet on deaths like I mean they they
00:55:46
shouldn't be I don't know if we should make them not do it or if you say okay
00:55:51
you're going to do that. >> Yeah. But to be fair I do think Cali has said we're not going to we're not going
00:55:56
to create markets and things like war that might involve an incentive that might involve death or
00:56:01
>> geopolitical. That's the kind of stuff but there's going to be someone who's
00:56:04
going to. So maybe we need some laws, right? Anyway, we we have to move on. It's a really interesting it's a
00:56:10
developing situation, but I think it's in every state's rights to do this. So
00:56:14
Ky should stop being so like high-handed with them. Of course, they're going to
00:56:17
come in. It's affecting things. So um this is exactly why the government should come in in some fashion. At least
00:56:23
think about it, have hearings, talk about it, and and let's discuss the things. Um just before we finish, this
00:56:29
is the last thing. Uber plans to invest $1.2 $2 billion in Rivian as part of a deal to deploy 50,000 robo taxis. I
00:56:36
recently spoke with uh Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaring on on with Care Swisser. I also saw him for an extended
00:56:43
amount of time at South by Southwest. Let's listen to a clip where he talked
00:56:47
about self-driving. >> If you're a customer and you have a choice of I can buy a car for 35 $40,000
00:56:52
and it can, you know, drop me at the airport, it can go to the grocery store to pick up, you know, stuff for me. It
00:56:58
can drop a friend at a house. it can do all those things or a car that doesn't
00:57:02
do that. It's it's going to be very binary where I think there'll be very
00:57:06
few people that will self- select to say I don't want those features. Even folks
00:57:11
who are not comfortable with the idea of self-driving once you experience it one
00:57:14
or two times. >> It does. I try to say that to everybody. >> It's so sticky because you get your time
00:57:19
back. Suddenly you can be reading a book on your phone. It's it's just so sticky.
00:57:23
>> I my one way of convincing one person I'm like who likes to party. I'm like,
00:57:28
you can you can text and drink. >> I don't know what to say. There's my
00:57:32
that's my sale for you. I think that was you I was talking about. Um it was really it was super interesting. I think
00:57:38
it's a real blow again to Tesla. Um and I I I drove the Rivian 2 at um South by
00:57:43
Southwest. I also they have a really nifty bike called Also, which I liked a lot. Um I really like the Rivian. I I
00:57:51
think he's interesting. I think he's a great spokesperson for this stuff. Um,
00:57:56
and they're wonderful. It's a wonderful I may buy one. I may buy an R2 um
00:58:00
because I was super impressed with it. Um, in any case, it's a really interesting um move by Uber who needs to
00:58:06
get into this business and uh and uh and it's a good thing for Rivian who, you
00:58:11
know, it's a tough struggle to get these cars to get a car company going. Um,
00:58:15
your thoughts on Rivian? >> I I think it's a win-win. I I think it's
00:58:20
uh Rivian is subscale. Automobile platforms cost so many billions to produce. I think Rivian has done as good
00:58:25
a job as anyone. I'm moving when I move back to the US. I'm going to if I buy a
00:58:31
car and I've really enjoyed not having a car for four years, I'm probably going
00:58:34
to buy a Rivian. >> The two is nice. It's smaller. >> I was one of those people that put 5,000
00:58:39
bucks down on it like five, six years ago and never took delivery of it. By the way, I should probably look into
00:58:44
that. >> Um, new couch market. What's the likelihood that Scott gets gets his
00:58:49
money back? >> I I think this is they're there. Look, Tesla's missed a real opportunity here
00:58:54
again and again and again, but I don't think he cares about the cars anymore,
00:58:56
does he? I mean, he he was introducing a a cyber cab that doesn't exist and isn't
00:59:01
being used anywhere. I mean, think between Whimo and Rivian, I think they've sort of ran around.
00:59:05
>> But let me It's also very one, >> they need more scale. So, this is a
00:59:11
great win for Rivian. to I think one of the biggest brand enhancements is to be known like there are few brands that
00:59:19
have fallen further faster in the last 20 years and made shittier cars than Jaguar. This is one of the great the one
00:59:25
of the great British brands in history. The design and the and the cars the last
00:59:30
20 years have just been remarkably uninspiring. Now the best brand move in my opinion of
00:59:35
Jaguar is they have been um the car of choice that I've seen for >> Whimos. Yes, they are.
00:59:42
>> So immediately it's like, "Oh, Jaguar is the kind of the Pepsi generation new
00:59:48
cool car." I didn't even know what the I I had to look. I I didn't even recognize
00:59:52
the car. That's a Jaguar. >> So it's Brand enhancing for Rubian. It
00:59:56
gives them all sorts of scale. >> And also what people have underappreciated is that the biggest
01:00:03
winner, the obvious biggest winner in autonomous, regardless of all the press releases, people realize
01:00:10
it's not Tesla. It's likely Whimo. They have the capital. They're miles ahead of
01:00:13
everyone. They have exponentially more miles under their under their under their belt in terms of testing this. But
01:00:20
there's an outside shot that the biggest winner here >> Mhm. >> is going to be Uber
01:00:26
>> because when you control >> sort of like the apple. See, they're
01:00:29
sort of like the apple. >> I love we always used in consulting we always used to the term use the term
01:00:35
custody of the consumer. My first client was Levi Strauss company and they were always complaining about J C Penney and
01:00:41
Sears. I'm like, "Yeah, but they have custody of the consumer. You need to
01:00:43
open your own stores. You need to go vertical to control the relationship with the consumer."
01:00:48
>> In the US, Uber has 75% market share. They're basically a monopoly.
01:00:54
>> Yeah. Der is a very effective. >> And so what they can do is they can say
01:00:58
they can push up an icon saying, "Why do you need to download the Whimo or the
01:01:02
Tesla app? Just click here for driverless." Yeah, they could also do deals with Whimo too by
01:01:08
>> and they can play them off against each other. They can find the company that
01:01:11
wants to work with them the most and get market share the same way Apple >> You could also use Uber to summon Whimo
01:01:17
if you I mean think why not like why not >> my point. Yeah. And then take a take a
01:01:22
large margin. So what did Apple do? Because they controlled custody of the billion wealthiest people in the world
01:01:28
through UI and people don't want to learn a new app. They extract $20 billion a year from Alphabet to be to
01:01:34
make to make Google the default search engine. >> Uber's in a position to extract
01:01:39
extraordinary deals around autonomous >> and make it and say to people, "Oh yeah,
01:01:44
you want autonomous? No problem. Here's the Uber app >> you love." And so I I look Whimo,
01:01:51
>> it's going to be interesting. Autonomous. I think I think one of the
01:01:54
places that AI actually comes to fruition and exceeds our expectations is around autonomous.
01:01:58
>> I agree. The question is, what's interesting is >> two of the biggest winners hands down
01:02:04
>> are going to be Uber and Whimo. And I wouldn't be surprised if Uber is in fact
01:02:09
the biggest winner because they have custody of the consumer. >> Yeah. Ultimately, I've been a big, as
01:02:14
you know, a big proponent of of self-driving in a safe mode. I I will tell you, I would never get in a Tesla
01:02:20
given I had a long talk with with R.J. about, you know, I think he's he's more
01:02:25
on you don't need this many points of safety, but he put them on there anyway,
01:02:29
right? And so compared to Elon who's like, I just have one camera with the guy in the back. Like I feel so unsafe
01:02:35
in Teslas in that regard. Um, and I think the way Whimo's done it is correct, but you're right. Uber's in in
01:02:41
a very they could have been it could have been easily sidelined by all these companies but they have they I always
01:02:47
used to say they have the reservation system and that and you're right it's
01:02:51
the chain of custody and and you do trust Uber what a brand I mean I know Travis Kalan is trying to come back in
01:02:56
this sector but I got to say DAR took that company and really made it into one like you know you know what is
01:03:03
comparatively >> really been eye opening for me and it goes to something you said that's always
01:03:06
really resonated with me and that is >> the thing about tech executives They're
01:03:10
traditionally white males who went to elite schools, raised in wealthy families. And when you never been a
01:03:16
victim, it's difficult to understand victimization. That's always struck me
01:03:20
that like until I walk in those shoes, you don't. And you know what women say
01:03:25
to me that I it makes so much sense. I just never realized it. I get into an Uber, the driver doesn't usually doesn't
01:03:32
talk to me. I don't want to talk to him. And I know that sounds terrible. I just
01:03:35
don't I don't want to talk. I want to be on my phone. Every woman I've talked to
01:03:39
says when they get in an Uber, the Uber driver tries to chat her up. >> And it's not me, but Yes. Yes.
01:03:46
>> Well, it's uncomfortable, especially if you talk to young women. >> Mhm.
01:03:51
>> And they don't. And you know who's really used loves Whimo is women.
01:03:56
>> Women. They do. Or else you can also now on Uber, by the way, uh request a woman.
01:04:01
>> Um there's a they they've done a great job. Let me tell you, Dar goes for I
01:04:05
don't agree with on everything. I think sometimes he can be a little too compromisy with terrible people. I think
01:04:09
he knows it. He's a great He's a great CEO. He's done a great job here.
01:04:14
>> All right. Uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
01:04:19
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01:05:32
Can I just start very quickly? Of course. I predict this mega micro penis war is going to get worse. And I am here
01:05:39
for it. Do you know about this? Right. Megan Kelly said Mark Levin had a microp penis and then President Trump defended
01:05:47
his micropenis and then Marjorie Taylor Green came in with a micropenis and Megan Kelly's doubling down on it. It's
01:05:54
completely crude and awful and repulsive and I think it's going to get a lot
01:05:58
worse and I'm very pleased. Thank you. >> Yeah, that's my prediction.
01:06:02
>> No, I I I don't I don't I think it's inappropriate to talk about man's
01:06:06
genitalia. Um, by the way, I was at a stall last night and a guy looked over and he said, "Circumcised?" And I said,
01:06:13
"Nope, that's just the wear and tear." >> Oh my god, you've told that joke before.
01:06:19
I'm going to start clocking your penis. By the way, >> I'm not going to say Adam Grant, but
01:06:23
Adam Grant said, "You got to cut back on the penis strokes, the party you missed,
01:06:26
cuz you wrote the >> Oh, my nemesis." >> Yes. Your nemesis was like
01:06:30
>> the more successful version of Scott Galloway. >> He's doing a podcast on the Vox Media
01:06:34
Podcast Network with uh with Bnee Brown, the two of them. They're trying to be
01:06:37
the nice version of Scott and Cara, I think. Um and he was he commented on your penis drugs and I said and I
01:06:43
literally Scott I I said I love them. I defended you so hard. >> I appreciate that. And I was like,
01:06:50
"People love them." And he's like, "Yeah, but do you think it's the right
01:06:52
thing?" I go, "It's the right thing. I'm no matter how much my brain
01:06:56
>> That's right. I don't want to be wrong." And then also also I want to be a little
01:07:00
bent to the left. Um >> anyway, just congratulations and Adam on >> It's a condition. I'm a special needs
01:07:08
person. >> Anyway, >> it's a condition. Don't penis. I'm here
01:07:11
for now. talking about mic. Sorry, Adam, but micro penis work cracks me the up and I'm I'm here for it and I hope
01:07:18
more to come and I think I think we're not done with the micro penis. >> I got to be I love it when they were
01:07:23
with each other because one of the things I don't like about the Democratic party
01:07:27
>> is that I find for the most part when I just went on this great podcast PBR PB
01:07:34
this really lovely guy. He's a conservative out of Fort Lauderdale. >> Oh, you want the guy that guy? Mhm.
01:07:39
>> Oh, I like him. I thought he was nice. Um anyways, um the thing I find generally speaking
01:07:45
about Republicans is they're like, "Oh, you want to be a Republican? Come on
01:07:48
in." >> Uh and when you say, "Oh, I want to be a pro progressive." It's like, "We'll
01:07:53
see." >> I feel like we apply way more Sarah. There's a new Democrat in town. But go
01:08:00
ahead. >> If you don't choose the right words, if you don't hold the gun correctly, let's
01:08:04
court marshall you and hang you. >> It's the right that's doing it now. But
01:08:08
go ahead. No, they're you know what this is? This is a bunch of podcasters who
01:08:13
know the algorithm, the more fights they get into and the more incendiary they are.
01:08:16
>> I suppose you're right. >> You know, Candace Owens makes a living
01:08:19
off of saying really vile things because the algorithms and the reason our nation
01:08:24
is being torn apart at the seams is there's now a financial incentive in being vile and incendiary. The
01:08:30
algorithms love it. In a world where there were editors and fact checkers and more reasonable people saying is that a
01:08:37
reasonable thing we want to print? She would be nowhere or anyway. So I I don't I love it when these guys fight
01:08:46
but at the end of the day it's it's it's indicative of a bigger problem and that
01:08:51
is our media our overlords are algorithms deciding that this is news. >> Oh, you're so good. I don't care. I like
01:08:59
the micro penis. Anyway, I defended you to Adam Grant on the page. I appreciate that. All right.
01:09:04
>> I tell you, other than academic credibility and talent and higher IQ, that that dude has nothing on me.
01:09:09
>> That dude has nothing on. Do you know he was a diver in college? >> Even better.
01:09:13
>> He was a diver. >> Yeah. >> All his sort of like, you know, his
01:09:18
tweets about, you know, characters doing the right thing when no one's looking.
01:09:22
Oh, you. >> All right, move along. >> Adam Grant, you and Bnee Brown.
01:09:28
thoughtfulness and deep >> interest. Poundforound, they're better people than us, but that's okay.
01:09:32
>> Well, that's that's Bern's obvious. >> I love that, Bnee. Anyway,
01:09:37
>> I want to be I like them both and Adam is a friend, so I I trust he's taking us
01:09:41
all in just >> I hope so. One would assume. Maybe they'll discuss it on their new show.
01:09:46
Maybe we should have a Rumble with them. >> I think we could be evil twins. I think
01:09:49
with his intellect and my I don't know, my something, we could take over Australia and Bnee would be queen of
01:09:55
>> a crossover show. We're gonna I'm gonna invite them on a crossover show. All
01:09:57
right. We could switch partners. You know when they switch the husband and wives?
01:10:01
>> I you know I' I've I've tried it but I'm the one that ends up alone and no one's
01:10:05
up for it. >> You know it's called show. You could have Bernay and Well, you've been on
01:10:09
Bernation anyway. Finish. Do your do your prediction. Prediction. >> Oh, I'm sorry.
01:10:14
>> Uh my prediction is OpenAI Sora social media app will be shut down soon.
01:10:19
>> Oh, >> Sora. Really? What do you know? You know something? >> No, I don't. I I've done no original
01:10:25
reporting. Okay. All right. >> Um, but they're focusing, which is the right thing to do. SOAR is essentially
01:10:31
OpenAI's uh, it's sort of a tick-like social media platform and for AI generated content.
01:10:37
>> Yeah, it's pointless. >> And users use their video model to generate short form content and they can
01:10:44
upload it and share and share it, right? And upon its release, Sora came out at number one in the app store. Um, and
01:10:54
actually got more downloads out of the gates than Chat GPT did. However, like the parties ended. Downloads fell 32%
01:11:02
month over month in December and another 45% in January. And some Sora is the little engine that didn't. And also
01:11:10
users continue to drop like flies. Um, and but at the same time, Open I open AI has to spend a ton of money to keep the
01:11:17
lights on there. And some estimates are that >> also brings a lot of legal challenges.
01:11:22
But >> well, it's costing them 15 million bucks a day or 5 billion a year.
01:11:27
>> And despite that, the app is bringing in less than half a million dollars per
01:11:31
month. And given their new focus, which is the right one, >> uh, on focus,
01:11:37
>> it's not central to OpenAI's, uh, core competences. They're an AI company, not
01:11:42
a social media company. >> It's not creating revenue. >> Yep. >> Big losses. And also, it's really
01:11:48
unpopular. 62% of Americans disapprove of online videos created with AI. >> A lot more trouble than it's worth.
01:11:54
>> It feels dystopian. 70% of people globally would be uncomfortable consuming fully AI generated creative
01:11:59
content. So >> this new focus, this new adult in the room saying we need to focus on the
01:12:05
enterprise market is now quite frankly we have seated so much share and value to anthropic. The first
01:12:11
>> Yeah. It's stupid. It's stupid. >> Anyways, the first example I like of
01:12:15
this focus is that open AI Sora uh rest in peace. It's going to be shut down.
01:12:21
>> All right. Okay. Oh, I like that. That's a big that's a big call. I think that's
01:12:24
a good one. Um I just want to make one other note before we go. Um, President Trump's comments about dyslexia. Um, I
01:12:31
have a lot of friends who have dyslexia, by the way. He said Governor Newsome should not be president because he had
01:12:36
dyslexia or has, but uh, gross. What a gross thing to say. I just was I'm just
01:12:41
like, stop it. Like, stop like make demonizing things that are learning disabilities. It's gross. He's does it
01:12:47
all the time, but it's a continual thing and everyone just lets him go. But honestly, what it just And I predict it
01:12:54
will have bad effects. Anyway, >> are you really are you really surprised though?
01:12:59
>> No, but I just don't I'm like no. Like we I I I think we should keep saying no
01:13:03
to this Gh. It was just gross. I have a lot of friends. >> I don't know. I I put the I put the sex
01:13:08
in dyslexia. Wait. Sexy dyslexia. Sexy >> Anyway. Anyway, that's good. Got it. I got it. Anyway,
01:13:16
you're grotesque. I I'm sorry. I think we have to call these out all the time.
01:13:20
Anyway, we want to I'm not angry about it. It's just um we want to hear from you. My favorite
01:13:25
stripper has uh has dyslexia. Her name was density. >> Adam Grant, take that. Talk about
01:13:35
character and being a good manager. Try to compete with my my stripper density. My dyslexic stripper density.
01:13:43
>> Yeah, right. >> Okay. Let's see who wins the iHeart podcast of the year award.
01:13:48
>> Density should be president. Anyway, we want to hear from you. to send us your
01:13:52
questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot
01:13:56
to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show.
01:14:00
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