00:00:00
Well, I'm not saying don't be a monk and live in the mountains. What I'm saying is develop some [ __ ] boundaries the next
00:00:06
time you're standing in line. Don't reach for your phone. Mhm. Difficult. Yeah. Don't reach for your phone.
00:00:13
Feel the tension. Don't reach for your phone. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Welcome
00:00:26
back to Scottree August. As Scott continues his August adventures, I'm joined by another incredible co-host, Mel Robbins. Mel is
00:00:41
an award-winning podcast host and New York Times bestselling author and an expert in mindset, behavioral change,
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and life improvement. Welcome, Mel. Well, thank you for having me. I am so thrilled to have you. We
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couldn't be more opposite, which is why I want you here. Wait a minute. What do you mean we couldn't be more We were just talking about like uh
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vibrating all the time. I'm a constant vibrator. Like that somebody's going to take that. Yes.
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That's my hope. That's my great hope social media wise. Um but talk a little bit about what you're doing. So um before I got into doing what I am
00:01:13
doing, I had a really cool opportunity to be one of the legal analysts and commentators for CNN, right? And I did that for almost three and a half years, right? And it was an incredible
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lawyer. Yeah. Well, I was a public defender here in Manhattan, early days of my career and um had about 19
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different job changes. You know, I'm kind of one of these people that I learn everything I talk about the hard way.
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And um I ended up at CNN. It was an incredible, incredible job, very intellectually stimulating. It was a
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real honor to have the opportunity to try to take these massive, in particular, social justice cases and be able to talk about them in a 3 to six
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minute segment and try to distill down some of the biggest themes and the important
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takeaways. And so that's what I did years and years ago. I left uh CNN in about 2014, I think it was.
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And and the rest is history because you've become one of the most successful podcasters
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around. you are number one too often at the very top. What do you attribute that to? Cuz this is a shift public defender
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CNN legal analyst to this. Well, when I got involved in podcasting, I'd been wanting to
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um do something that was a longer form conversation. I had been after, you know, after CNN, what ended up happening is I had created this motivational hack called the 5-second rule. Not the one
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where you drop food on the floor, pick it up in 5 seconds, which I do all all the time. Yeah. Blow the dog hair off, we're good
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to go. This is this concept that there's a big difference between thinking and doing. And there's this 5-second window
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of hesitation that defines your whole life. The moment you stop and consider how you feel about doing something, within 5
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seconds, if you don't do it, your kind of automatic thinking loops will take over. So, for example, when the alarm
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goes off in the morning, you know that you're supposed to get out. You're the one who set the alarm.
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And yet, instead of just rolling out of bed, what do we do? We stop and we think, "How do I feel about getting out
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of bed?" And if you're stressed or anxious or depressed, which I was when I created this little hack,
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if you stop and think, "It's cold, it's dark, I don't feel like it, my life's a nightmare, I hate my spouse, like, I'm
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just going to go back to sleep." you will go back to sleep. If you move within 5 seconds, everything changes. See, there's this
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huge mistake that people make. I made this forever thinking that at some point I'll feel like doing what I need to do,
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right? And the fact is motivation is complete garbage. You will never feel like doing the things that you need to do.
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You need to develop this skill, everybody does, right? To force yourself to take action before
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you feel ready. I see. And so the 5-second rule is a simple concept. You just count backwards the
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moment you feel hesitation kick in. 5 4 3 2 1 and then you move. And you can use this to shortcut this
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default that a lot of us have which is a bias toward overthinking the smallest things that we need to do.
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True. I of course completely went back to sleep this morning after the alarm went off and I'm like who set that
00:04:14
alarm? Who did that last night in my empty hotel room? um is such a shift in what you're doing and we're going to talk a lot a lot of things today including open AI trying to create what they call healthy use of chat DPT I want
00:04:27
okay okay okay sure um and you're going to share some advice on on news fatigue um but before let's talk about your latest book the let them because you are a podcaster this book is an enormous yes
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let them is everywhere yes you know and the reason I joking with you in a in a um uh in a text I said I'm
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a don't let them kind of gal like which is kind of interesting. Um but this book is is running up the charts. Oprah
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called it a gamecher and a lifecher. Lovely hugs by the way at whatever greenhouse she's doing her podcast in.
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Um uh people are getting let them tattoos. I do not I have um I have chaos chaos and entropy and cropy on my tattoos which is very different that everything is on its way to destruction
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or creation. Um talk about for anyone who hasn't heard it tell them what the let them theory is all about. Sure. and
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and and how you came up with them. Sure. So the let them theory is a very simple concept. Two simple words, that's how you begin. Let them will help you live your life completely
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differently. It is a philosophy that's all about control and power. What is in your control
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what is not in your control. And the fact is that most of us spend way too much of our time and energy
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burning through things that are beyond your control. And the number one thing that is outside of your control at all
00:05:47
times is other people. What they think, what they do, what they say, how they feel, what they believe.
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And I never realized the extent to which I was living my life navigating my day-to-day decisions based on other
00:05:58
people's moods, their expectations, trying to get them to think. Yeah, everybody does. Everybody does. Because
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we have a fundamental need to feel in control. It's a survival mechanism. That's not going away. M
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but we make a mistake of thinking that the way to feel safer or more in control in your own life is to micromanage change and control other people. So if you were doing something that
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worried me or frustrated me or made me feel nervous about something or hurt. Mhm. Instead of crossing the line and trying to force you to change, which is what I
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did forever with my kids, with my husband, with the world around me, with my boss, there's a simpler way to live your life.
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Just say, "Let them." Mhm. Let them think what they're going to think. Let them do what they're going to do. Let them be who they're going to be. Let them feel what they're going to
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feel because I know that I can't control another human being. And then you go to step two of the theory, which is you
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say, "Let me. Let me is where you take your power back." And instead of giving it to other people and outside forces,
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which only is going to stress you out, by the way. Let me remind myself at any moment there's only three things I can control.
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I can control what I think. I can control what I do or don't do. Mhm. And I can control how I respond to the
00:07:09
feelings that are going to automatically rise up. That's all you've got. And one of the reasons why this is
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spread around the world and it's more than it's six million copies in six and a half months. It's the single most successful non-fiction book launch in history.
00:07:25
The reason why it is so successful is a couple reasons. Number one, we are living in a moment of unprecedented
00:07:31
change. The average person, this is research from Dr. Adidi Nurikar from Harvard
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Medical School. She is one of the world's leading experts in stress as a medical condition. Not stress like I
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feel stressed, but the actual physiology of being inflammation, cortisol. Oh, the fact that it's actually bigger
00:07:50
than that. You're This is again Dr. Nurar's research. What happens when you're quote stressed is
00:07:56
that you switch gears in your brain and the amygdala takes over. That's right. And that means that your
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prefrontal cortex is not able to function in its full capacity, which means strategic thinking out the window,
00:08:08
emotional regulation out the window. And this is kind of the perfect place to start for all the topics you want to
00:08:14
talk about today because I think we tend to laser down onto the things that are frustrating us or scaring us without zooming out and seeing the bigger picture. Mhm. According to her research in the United
00:08:25
States, 80% of human beings walking around are in a chronic state of stress. Mhm. Yes, they are. And which leads to health outcomes is well, not even health like it leads to
00:08:38
the inability to think critically, the inability to regulate your emotions, right? And so you are dealing nine times out of 10 or eight times out of 10
00:08:49
rather with somebody who is not fully able to function. And so you're basically what you're saying is the constant id. We become the id versus super ego or ego. Well I you know those are big fancy
00:09:01
words like and this is the other reason why the let them theory is spread around the world. It's super simple, right? Everybody can say the words let them.
00:09:08
And the second you say let them, and this brings me to the third reason why this is so incredibly powerful, is this
00:09:13
is not a new idea, right? Like the reason why this is so successful is because I'm reminding you
00:09:19
of what you already know to be true. If you're a fan of stoicism, the let them theory is a modern version of that tool.
00:09:25
If you're a fan of radical acceptance or detachment theory, let them is practicing detachment. When you say let me, you're reclaiming
00:09:32
control over they have to go together. You're talking, oh, they have to go to go together. So, so I I joke about it. Don't let them
00:09:38
is kind of my theory. My whole career is built on, oh, no, no, no, no. You may not do. Well, that's the let me part,
00:09:43
is it? Well, yeah, because Okay. What's like cuz like let's just take politics for example. All this stuff that we're upset about is
00:09:50
already happening, right? And so any of the that you do that only stresses you out by the way,
00:09:56
which only compromises your ability to stay calm, confident, focused, and strategic. Because it's not about that out there. The power in your life is your response
00:10:08
to it. This is Victor Frankle's man search for meaning. Another reference to why this is so powerful. I am giving you a tool. Let
00:10:15
them and let me to apply ancient philosophy, therapeutic modalities, the serenity prayer in a moment. Like I've read every book on stoicism. I never knew how the how to apply it when I was all stressed out because I was
00:10:27
already hijacked by my amydala. I was already emotionally reactive. So when I say let them,
00:10:33
I drop down a boundary. Like here's a simple way to use it. Everybody starts using it for day-to-day stress because let's face it, people are really [ __ ]
00:10:39
annoying. They are. And whether it's a slow walker, close talker, like people in traffic, the long ass lines
00:10:45
on train yesterday doing a deal. Yeah. You're just like, "Oh my god." But here's the thing.
00:10:51
Why on earth Mhm. would you give your two most important resources, which is your time and your energy, to all these idiots walking around
00:11:02
that are disrespectful, rude, and annoying, don't do it. Don't do it. Your time and energy is so
00:11:08
much more valuable. So when you say let them, what you're doing is you're reminding yourself that whatever is
00:11:13
triggering you right now is not deserving of your time and energy. And then when you say let me,
00:11:20
you remind yourself that no matter what's going on around you, there are still simple things you can do
00:11:27
in response to it that help you stay. Not the idea because some people who are who could be critical is like like you don't want to let and I'm we're not talking about politics here but Donald
00:11:38
Trump's a perfect you don't want to let the government change like take away rights from people. You don't want to
00:11:43
let that's not what you're saying here. Let them isn't well they're going to cut funds for NPR. Let them
00:11:49
Well, here's the thing. They just did. Yes, they did. So like let them is radical acceptance of what's happening instead of
00:11:55
gaslighting yourself. Right. Okay. Right. Let me. But you're not saying let them. It's a good thing. It's
00:12:00
No, I'm saying let them forces you to accept the facts that you're dealing with and let me is how you cue yourself to take back power.
00:12:12
Correct. Right. And and if you allow all of the upset and there's a lot of upsetting things going on and terrifying
00:12:18
things that are going on in the world right now, but if you allow what's happening or has already happened
00:12:24
to stress you out to a point where you are frozen, correct? Or you are anxious or you are now
00:12:30
spiraling in depression. Now you have no power to respond in a way either with yourself and your own stress and mental health or within your family or within your community or within your state or
00:12:41
within the nation at large. You have so much more power than you realize, but you don't understand that because like
00:12:48
me, you have been giving it away without knowing it. So, so you're talking about in let them giving away power versus not being
00:12:56
passive, right? It's not a word. Let them is not passive passive because one of the things um when you're when you're
00:13:03
doing the idea of let them I often get in arguments with people when they're talking about Donald Trump they go into
00:13:09
the doom. I was like what are you going to do about it? Like stop like we know like some some people like can you believe
00:13:15
Donald Trump did blank for example the answer for me is always yes. Yes I do. Yes I do because he's a racist. He's homophobic. He's
00:13:22
anti-trans. Yes I do believe it. Yes. And so it's it like for me I'm just surprised
00:13:27
anybody's surprised by it. Right. Exactly. Which they constantly are. That's one of his magic I have to say. Well, this is also classic with
00:13:33
narcissism is that when you're dealing with somebody that has a personality style
00:13:38
that is narcissistic, the people around that person constantly give that behavior power by trying to explain it. Instead, let them reveal who they are
00:13:49
and stop gaslighting yourself into believing this person's ever going to change. I actually did use at first I was like I'm not going to let my I have
00:13:56
a difficult relationship with my mom and and I used your let them cuz she I always get pulled into like something
00:14:01
and I have to say it's working. It's very and then it oddly working. I'll tell you why it's working Cara and
00:14:07
here's the reason why is because uh my favorite expert on the narcissistic personality style is Dr. Romani Deersula. Okay. And Dr. Romani basically says that one
00:14:20
of the most damaging things that we can do when we have a very challenging personality,
00:14:27
especially with people that are close to us, cuz it's easy on the internet to, you know, oh, cut them out of your life. Most of us have somebody very
00:14:34
challenging in our life and we're not just going to cut them out of our life. We want to figure out how to deal with them, whether it's an ex
00:14:39
or it is a parent or it's a child that's acting out or a boss or whatever. that one of the most dangerous things you can do is hope that the person's going to change. Right? If you say let them, let their behavior
00:14:51
be the truth of who this person is, you are forcing yourself to recognize who this person is. And now let me decide how much time do they get, how much energy do they get of mine.
00:15:02
Let me stop wishing they would change and let me just actually learn how to accept who this person is and who they
00:15:08
aren't and stop gaslighting myself with some fantasy about who they may become. You don't think people should have a
00:15:14
role in trying to change people though? The idea I think that your only Especially people you care about. I'm
00:15:20
not talking about the guy on the train. I just go around it. Well, here's the thing. I'm super pragmatic. So, I don't want to waste my time cuz
00:15:26
I've wasted 50 years of my life doing dumb [ __ ] that didn't work and then causing myself stress and hurt and frustration and causing other people
00:15:32
stress and hurt and frustration. Our desire to change other people typically comes from a place of love. Like, we
00:15:38
want the best for our kids. We want the best for our families. We want to get along with everybody. That's a wonderful thing.
00:15:43
But what I realized in doing the research for this book, because there are 57 worldrenowned experts that are cited in this book, 18page bibliography,
00:15:51
and the let them theory over and over, let them and let me helps you access the advice and the research that
00:15:59
everybody says what works. So, let's take a look at this dynamic of wanting to change other people. You're always
00:16:04
going to want to change other people. That's a good thing. But let's go about it and be very smart about it. Because here's the thing. We all have a
00:16:11
fundamental need to be in control of our lives, our decisions, our timelines, what's going to happen at work.
00:16:16
And when you start to worry about like for example your kid, so I was really world I'll use an example for my own life. We I have three kids 26, 24, and our son is 20. And our son Oakley
00:16:28
is this wonderful like just casserole of a kid of things, you know, he had major
00:16:33
dyslexia and ADHD and disgraphia. and he bounced from the public school to the school for language based learning and
00:16:39
he was like hated school and didn't have a lot of friends and as a parent I was so tied in knots and worried about this
00:16:46
kid and so he would like a lot of kids especially young men he I would hear him upstairs playing video games right at school right and he's not he wasn't doing well in
00:16:59
school at the time and kind of checked out and I would go marching up the stairs cuz I'm worried about him and I
00:17:04
want him to be motivated And I want him to thrive. Did you march just like that? Oh yeah. Just my arms pumping and stomp
00:17:10
stomp stomp stomp. Yeah, that's why they wear headphones cuz I know you're going to do it. Swing open the door. Hey, you know you need to get off the
00:17:16
First of all, do I really think he's an idiot? Mhm. Of course your kid knows that playing video games is not going to help the
00:17:28
problem that he's feeling at school. Do you want to know the hardest working kid in school? It's not the kid getting A's.
00:17:33
It's the kid that's failing. Right. Do you know how hard it is to sit in a classroom and not be able to do what's being asked of you?
00:17:38
Mhm. And so all he thinks about is that, right? And now I go in and march in like Miss
00:17:44
Bossy with all the answers telling him what to do. Kind of like we do with our spouses. You know, you really should exercise. Oh, thanks a lot. You don't
00:17:50
you don't think I thought about taking a walk? Like, you know, [ __ ] you. And so what happens is our desire to
00:17:57
change people because we want them to thrive and we want the best for them. M the second I tell you what to do. I bump
00:18:03
up against your need to control yourself. So instead of motivating you, you know what I just did?
00:18:08
I actually created the standoff. You're right. No, it's this is my favorite person on
00:18:13
this. There's two experts that you should talk to. One is he goes by Dr. K, the healthy gamer. He uh Harvard trained psychiatrist that
00:18:20
is a specialist in gaming addiction. And now his entire business is training other therapists. And basically the
00:18:28
entire thing about motivation is we are working against the circuitry. Yes. Absolutely. Especially with some of
00:18:33
this addictive stuff. Yes. That people only change when they're ready to change for themselves. Sure. Yeah. I know. We say sure, but then we're like
00:18:44
buddy, you know, how about a trainer? Hey, you know, maybe you shouldn't eat that second slice of bread or maybe you shouldn't have the fourth beer. And
00:18:50
they're like, [ __ ] you. I'm going to have that. Right. Don't tell me what to do. Right? And so we create these standoffs
00:18:57
instead of using the research, right, to actually sneakily, right, influence them and make them think it's their idea,
00:19:03
make them do it. Yeah. Well, here's what you're going to do. So, another a second expert that I love is Dr. Stuart Avlon. He's at Mass
00:19:10
General Brigham, Harvard uh medical school professor. He also is the founder of Think Kids. So, he's been a child
00:19:15
psychologist for 30 years. His entire body of work says that let's just assume everybody in life wants to thrive. Mhm. Let's assume everybody wants to be happy
00:19:28
and healthy. When somebody is challenging or somebody is like not thriving in life, we jump in
00:19:35
and think it's a problem of willpower. He doesn't believe that, right? He believes it's an issue of skill and
00:19:42
it's an issue of discouragement. And I believe this too. I believe that the single biggest thing that stands in
00:19:48
people's way in today's world is discouragement and lack of hope. This belief that okay, well that works for Cara but doesn't work for me,
00:19:54
right? You know, that's nice for that person, but that's never going to work for me. Because you can have all the advice in the world and we're going to get to AI
00:20:00
and chat and you know, like the advice is there, right? But if you believe it's not going to work for you, you're never going to
00:20:06
actually do it. Mhm. And so the thing that you're battling in a kid that's not motivated or a person
00:20:12
in your life that's not losing the weight or not getting the help that they need is that they actually believe deep down somewhere that it's not going to
00:20:18
work for them. Right? And at some point the only way that they're going to change is they're going
00:20:23
to have to get to a point where staying where they are is actually harder than doing the very difficult work that it takes to change. Are there any surprising use cases you've heard from others with this? You
00:20:36
just discussed your son how you use it in your day-to-day life. Is there a surprising case and is there one where
00:20:42
you should not use let them? Well, again, you need to I don't I don't know of a single case where you shouldn't use let them because there's always the let me part. Mhm. Like for example, if you're in a
00:20:53
situation where you have a friend that's wasted and they're like and they're grabbing their keys, you're not going to just let
00:20:59
them walk out the door, right? But they're already grabbing their keys. Mhm. You got to go to the let me part. Mhm.
00:21:04
Let me step in. Let me take the keys. Let me do the thing that is going to prevent them from
00:21:11
doing something destructive right now. But here's the problem. Most people don't do that in front of you. Right? Most people that are struggling are
00:21:17
really good at hiding it because they already feel a deep sense of shame about it. And so the approach that I think is the
00:21:23
use case that's incredible comes from Dr. Steuart Ablon. And it's taking the let them which is let somebody just be
00:21:30
where they are, right? Let them be who they are. let them struggle and let me take a different approach. And that approach is with
00:21:37
them, not at them. And so the approach is simple. You literally take the stance. I break it
00:21:43
down into something I call the ABC loop. And the ABC loop is just a three-part conversation. The first thing you're going to do with anybody that's struggling in your life, and this is the most surprising use case, it works like
00:21:54
a charm, is you apologize. Mhm. You apologize to the person for assuming you know what's going on and for badgering them and pressuring them. And so with, you know, instance with my
00:22:05
son, hey buddy, I'm really sorry. Must be completely annoying to have me constantly nagging you. I'm really sorry about that.
00:22:11
Mhm. And first off, if it's a kid, they're like, what? They're waiting for the kids. And by the way, the best place to have
00:22:17
this conversation is a car cuz they're trapped. You don't have to look at each other. There's something about the forward ambulation of being in a moving
00:22:24
vehicle that sort of opens up with my kids. Yes. And so you apologize. And then what
00:22:30
you're going to do is you're going to ask, this is the a open-ended question. I I've never even asked you, how do you feel about how school's going? Mhm. How do you feel about how you're doing?
00:22:42
And even if they're like, the experts say it doesn't matter what they say, right? Because the internal friction
00:22:51
that you're It's not you telling them what you think about how they're doing. They know how they're doing. Human beings aren't idiots, right?
00:22:57
They know when they're not thriving. Mhm. But we don't stop and ask them how they feel about it. And so even being asked
00:23:03
to consider, how do I feel about my health right now? How do I feel about the fact that my mother's dying? How do I feel about the
00:23:09
fact that I might lose my job to AI? Mhm. It's stirring up the friction that most
00:23:15
of us repress. Mhm. And then what do you do? That's all you got to do. We have C. We just have
00:23:20
back off. Well, B is back off. B is back off. Yeah. Back off. Mhm. You got to back off and you've got to
00:23:26
wait. And then C is the hard part. You got to model the change. So is But but let me don't let them in a
00:23:34
weird. It's a different version. See, I want you to be sneaky. I don't want you to I don't want you to I don't want you to try to change people because
00:23:39
it's going to backfire. I want you to use your influence because I'll give you an example that'll make a lot of sense.
00:23:44
Let's say you and I are at work. Mhm. And every single day around lunch, you close your laptop, you get up, you walk
00:23:51
outside, you go for a walk, you come back 30 minutes later, you just look happy, refreshed, sit back down, like
00:23:57
tap tap. Now, meanwhile, I'm jamming the tuna sandwich down my throat and I'm working through lunch. You never once asked me to go for a
00:24:03
walk. Mhm. About a month after watching you do this, something interesting is going to
00:24:08
happen. This is research, by the way, from Dr. Tally Sheret. She studies the science of influence.
00:24:14
About a month after watching you do this, all of a sudden one day I'm going to close my laptop and go for a walk. And
00:24:20
you want to know something weird? I'm going to think it's my idea. Right. Right. But you and the power of your example
00:24:27
and influence is the thing that actually influenced me in changing my own behavior
00:24:33
cuz you saw it. You saw it pattern and I saw you enjoying it. Mhm. And I sat with the fact that every
00:24:41
day at lunch I sit there and make a different decision and I know deep down it's a bad decision.
00:24:46
Correct. You still can invite someone if Correct. You can. Yeah, you can. Yeah. No pressure, right? Hey, you want to go for a walk? And if they don't, they're like, "Okay, you're missing out. Don't do that." Right. Yeah. Well, [ __ ] you. I got work to do.
00:24:58
Like, see what I'm saying? Like, and so again, people change when they're ready to change. And people only change for
00:25:04
themselves. And you know, Dr. Dr. K who I also love basically said the basic wiring of the human brain is we default and move towards what's easy and we reject what feels difficult
00:25:16
and that's why back to my original point you have to develop a skill for yourself where you're not sitting around waiting
00:25:22
for it to feel easy to do the thing where you actually understand it's never going to feel easy right right
00:25:27
5 4 3 2 1 I'm going to do the thing right certain people it's very easy to let them other people it's not so hard
00:25:34
that's the difficulty like my son, my oldest son. I do a lot of I do a version of that, I guess, like how do you feel? And um sounds good. I really trust you. I often say I really trust your instinct
00:25:46
on lots of things. You're a great mom. Not all the time, but No, let me tell you why. That's it works on that, but other people it
00:25:52
doesn't doesn't work with my mom. I have to say, well, because she's got a narcissistic personality style, right? Exactly.
00:25:57
So, she's going to do what she's ever going to do. Yeah. Well, you've got to let her be who she is. Your relationship will change with
00:26:03
her profoundly. And I'm glad it's working for you. because it's going to help you access detachment theory and radical
00:26:09
acceptance. Well, that's where I have to go to. You do. She is never going to change. 60 years in. She's never I have to do the same.
00:26:15
She said, "I'm I'm in a a a war with my my mother that I that continues forever.
00:26:20
This quiet war that goes on and on because you wish it was different." Yes. And that's what Dr. Romani Diversalist
00:26:27
says. Wishing somebody else is different is the source of your suffering in a relationship. That's sort of Buddhism, right? It is well again the let them theory is also radical. It's also the serenity prayer.
00:26:39
It is Buddhism, right? And so you got a lot of stuff in there. You got stoicism. You've got a lot of
00:26:44
because it all traces back to the fundamental truth that there's only three things you can control in life. It's what you think about what's happening. It's what you do or don't do
00:26:55
in response. And with our parents or the people in our life that are very challenging, what you don't do is almost
00:27:01
more important than what you do do. And it's what you do in response to those emotions. Like you may always and lots
00:27:08
of us will feel that wave of grief and disappointment because a person can't be who we want them to be and who we maybe
00:27:15
deserve to have them be. And those feelings are extremely valid and important. You think you can change it. Yeah. Yes. But what you do with it is what matters more because that's where your power is. And ultimately as
00:27:27
you start to use this and again you'll start to use it. let them. When you just the moment you feel frustrated about
00:27:32
anything and you'll notice it's 99% of the time about other people's behavior and you say let them, your shoulders
00:27:39
drop because you're putting a boundary up between yourself and the world where normally you'd allow the outside world
00:27:46
and other people to impact you. Yeah, it does make a lot of I'm still not going to let the tech bros do it cuz they're, you know, you know the word
00:27:51
tech bro technically broken. Well, but hold on. You don't have a choice. That's correct. But you you have a choice of what to do about it. You're right. You're in the second part. Oh, you're so tricky. All right, Mel, let's
00:28:04
go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about people turning to AI for mental health advice.
00:28:09
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00:28:38
Mel, we're back. Illinois just became the first state to regulate the use of AI in mental health care. The new law
00:28:44
bans AI from acting as a standalone therapist and sets guard rails of how mental health professionals can use AI
00:28:50
to support care. Meanwhile, OpenA is updating chat GPT to better detect emotional distress. The company says its
00:28:56
GPT uh uh 40 model fell short in recognizing signs of delusion and emotional dependency in some cases. You think the new behavior uh to handle what open a calls highstakes personal
00:29:08
decisions is rolling out soon. Um talk a little bit about this because a lot of people are relying on a ton of people
00:29:15
enough. Now hold on a second. There's actually a recent report from Harvard Business. Yeah,
00:29:21
that says that since 2024 to 2025, this is a literally it just came out a couple
00:29:26
months ago, that the single top use case for generative AI in 2025 is therapy and
00:29:31
companionship, right? And I just want everybody to sit with that right now. Millions of people.
00:29:37
Well, there's 700 million people that are using generative AI every week. Yep. The top use case Harvard Business School
00:29:44
report Mhm. And this is a major change from 2024 is for which was usually just I want to get ideas generating ideas. So 2024 was generating ideas specific search. It was
00:29:57
therapy and companionship, but now it's therapy and companionship number one. And so it is happening. And the first thing I want to say is I really want to applaud what's happening in Illinois.
00:30:09
Because one of the things that is terrifying about what's happening with AI, and there's lots of wonderful things that are happening, but let's just talk
00:30:15
about the terrifying thing that's happening. There's zero regulation. Mhm. Zero. And if we have a situation where
00:30:23
people are turning to AI in order to get advice, it's already happening, right? And the problem because there is good stuff here. I brought a bunch of studies to talk about here and I want to zoom
00:30:35
out and talk about well why is this happening? Right? The reason why people are turning toward
00:30:40
AI is because we are first of all, as we've already discussed, living in an unprecedented moment of change and
00:30:46
overwhelm and insecurity, right? information flood versus information desert which existed before and what we have is also combine that
00:30:54
with a a medical fact Dr. Adidi Nurar, Harvard Medical School, 80% of people in the United States are living in a state of chronic stress, meaning you're in fight or flight, right? Meaning constantly.
00:31:05
Constantly. And so if you're finding as you're listening right now that you're constantly overthinking, you're
00:31:11
procrastinating more, you feel a little bit more anxious, you're having trouble thinking, and you have the tools to help you do
00:31:16
that doom scrolling or constant news. Yes. Well, we'll talk about that in a second. Your body won't reset without you
00:31:22
resetting your stress response. And so you have this backdrop where you've got people in a state where they need support. And in the United States alone,
00:31:34
for every 1,600 people that have depression or anxiety, there's only one mental health professional. And that's
00:31:40
in the United States. There are some places in the world where for every 300,000 people that have
00:31:47
depression, there's one. And so there is a huge need. But let's talk also people aren't connecting with their
00:31:53
own close people too. They don't have that at work or wherever. Yes. And so I think it's important to
00:31:59
just say that we need to look at the fact that people are searching for answers. And I personally believe that
00:32:04
the fact that somebody is searching for answers is a good thing. Now let's talk about where AI can
00:32:10
support and where AI is very very problematic because I think the single biggest issue that we're facing when it
00:32:15
comes to generative AI is there's zero regulation. And we're living in a world, especially in the United States, where
00:32:20
we now have a government that's more focused on profit than people. We have uh business regulation getting
00:32:26
gutted. In fact, you know, you've got the the backdrop of Illinois passing this law, which my I think it's a
00:32:32
fabulous thing, but here's my concern. It seems like the law is focused primarily on AI products that are
00:32:40
marketed as therapy. My concern is the average person is just going right there and doing a problem, And it's also Open
00:32:45
AI is still the largest and now they are trying to do things like sending out reminders for people to take a break
00:32:51
when they've been chatting with a bot. But they also benefit from people just as any other just as Facebook does and
00:32:57
others. Well, here's my concern. Here's my concern. My concern is that against the backdrop of Illinois doing something
00:33:03
incredibly positive because this is what has to happen. What has to happen is we've got to wake the hell up and recognize that this
00:33:09
thing is so out of control already. And we can dig into other areas and examples that I can give you from my own life. in
00:33:14
terms of where this is spinning out of control. But you've got to understand that this is this is against a backdrop where the
00:33:21
Trump administration just revealed an AI plan outlining a 10-year moratorum on states being able to regulate this. Yes, they tried. And so you have platforms that are unregulated.
00:33:33
You have businesses just pumping out these new businesses without regulation and they are preying on people who need actual help. So they're they're they're meeting a need which is what they're
00:33:44
very good at. They're identifying and meeting a need. And one of the things for people which I talk about all the time, we talk about this on pivot
00:33:50
constantly, the lack of regulation in general in tech and in AI in particular. Um they don't have I I always like when I'm in a group of people I say put put your hand up how much regulation you
00:34:01
think there is in AI. And people go 100 rules 100. And I go there's zero. There's zero. I'm going to give you some
00:34:07
examples in a minute, but I want to I want to unpack this a little bit further because one of the reasons why AI is an incomplete solution for a very
00:34:16
big problem that we have in society. So, let's just all agree that we are at a moment in time where people getting support for mental health issues. And when I use the word mental health, I'm
00:34:27
not just talking about people struggling. Mental health includes learning how to be happy, learning how to manage your stress, learning how to
00:34:33
be more resilient, learning how to have better relationships. And so it's a positive thing
00:34:38
and people are looking for help with it which is a positive thing. Now here's how I want everybody to think
00:34:44
about AI. AI I think about it like autocorrect. Mhm. You know how you like are typing and
00:34:50
then it tries and you're like well that's not what I wanted to say. AI is filling in the blank guessing
00:34:55
based on the information you're feeding it and the information that's out there. Right? And the problem when it comes to
00:35:02
therapy and you know there's some really really good research on this. There was a study that was done at Stanford that I
00:35:09
have in front of me. This is the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI where they first looked at by the way for people.
00:35:14
Yeah. Where they first looked at what does it what does it mean to be a great human therapist?
00:35:19
You got to be able to treat patients equally. You got to show empathy, not stigmatize mental health concerns, not
00:35:24
enable suicidal thoughts or delusions, and challenge a patient's thinking. Here's the problem with AI. AI tends to
00:35:32
feed you validation. Yes. And it gives you answers, not options. Mhm. And based on the prompts that people
00:35:38
give, it's only searching the language, but it's taking no other cues like emotion, tone of voice, stress levels, and responses that you can see, past history. Unless somebody actually gives
00:35:50
you that, it's not taking any of that into consideration. And so I want to talk about something that's positive
00:35:57
before we kind of jump into the fact that what's needed here is regulation. There was a study from my alma mater
00:36:03
Dartmouth, okay, that came out literally just a couple months ago. It was published in March. And Dartmouth
00:36:09
researchers conducted the first ever clinical trial of generative AI powered therapy. And they found, and this is
00:36:15
important, that people that were diagnosed with depression experienced a 51% average reduction in symptoms using generative AI in a therapeutic model.
00:36:26
All right. Okay. So, leading to clinically significant improvements in mood and overall well-being.
00:36:32
If you had generalized anxiety, it reported an average reduction in symptoms of 31%.
00:36:38
However, here's the thing that they said. The problem is it's okay if it is supervised by a human
00:36:47
being when it's not when it's not AI is fundamentally not able to work autonomously and the problem is without regulation and again
00:37:00
let's applaud the state of Illinois for caring more about the people rather than the unmitigated profits that companies
00:37:06
that are using AI are allowed to create Mhm. that without any kind of regulations,
00:37:13
companies are not going to do this. Period. No, of course not. Of course not. Yeah. I we like they didn't fix social media. They
00:37:18
didn't put safety in. No, not only did they not fix it, but when they saw that it was damaging
00:37:26
kids mental health, they doubled down on the algorithms. So, we've seen this with big tobacco. We've seen this with social
00:37:33
media. Let's not be idiots, okay? Let's let them give us the platitudes and the the like empty promises cancer. Yeah, whatever. Okay. You know, you're here to make profits because you're a
00:37:43
public company and you now don't have to regulate or report to anybody. And so, let me This is the part where we have to go, no, no, no. We've got to pressure the people that are paying attention in
00:37:54
states where they are. So, what guard rails would you like to see in place? I I want to see I want to see tremendous
00:38:00
regulation. You see that as the money they have is the money they bring to bear is massive. They're standing next
00:38:06
to Trump on the podium there. There has to be like a guard rail. Well, a guardrail a very good one is what happened in in Illinois. That's a very good one because you're
00:38:17
now putting a stake in the ground to saying whoa whoa whoa whoa. Mhm. Like people matter and we can't just put
00:38:23
something out here that isn't actually helping people and being and that has oversight, right? Like this is why we have consumer safety laws. Correct. And yet they don't seem to apply to something that is not being
00:38:36
regulated. It would apply to a cigarette. It would apply to chemicals. It would apply Why? Because people matter, right?
00:38:42
People matter more than the profits of a company. At least they used to. And so so I want to say that there's something very
00:38:48
promising. But what they concluded in the study at Dartmouth is that while the results are promising, no generative AI
00:38:54
agent is ready to operate fully autonomously in mental health because there is such a very wide range of
00:39:01
high-risisk scenarios that can occur occur. And so here's another example. I would love to have an X-ray done and have it like scanned by AI, but I want
00:39:11
a doctor a doctor to look at it after the AI gives you its solutions. That's it.
00:39:19
Because one of the things that also can happen is like AI is fantastic for administrative tasks, for other things,
00:39:25
for communicating with people. But when you allow it to operate autonomously, now we get into massively dangerous
00:39:32
situations. And it also tries to be pleasing. It tries to you don't know what it's going to answer. It it it's not really Well, because here's the other thing.
00:39:38
It's not userenerated, but it is at the same time. Well, and a lot of times the answers are wrong. Mhm. Like the other day you if you did a
00:39:44
search on me, you would see that I drive a Lamborghini and I'm divorced and that I'm also I've converted to Islam.
00:39:50
How's that going for you? Well, like none of it's true. I understand. But but that's what people also don't
00:39:55
understand now. Oh, cut. No pickup truck. Um and so I I I I think it's important because we've also gotten to this point where you go to it and you think that it's right. And what's coming everybody
00:40:06
is advertising. Mhm. Absolutely. And when it goes to advertising, it means that the longer it keeps you on the platform, then the more money we spend. I mean,
00:40:19
it's true. Not even think about people don't think about it. Yeah. But Mos, my uh my partner for many years, for 20 years, nailed it right
00:40:27
from the beginning. He said he called Mark Zuckerberg a rapacious information thief. Um and well,
00:40:32
let's talk about that. Yes. So we're going to I want to talk about the influx of the information influx about it um without overwhelming
00:40:40
you. Um h first of all how do you when you when you use generative AI or deal with the influx of news that is that overwhelms you some of which is I don't I don't deal with an influx of
00:40:51
news. You don't what do you do? Well I'll tell you why because I understanding but if you want to stay informed without feeling overwhelmed of course so you
00:40:59
know this is a very simple thing like think about input versus output. Mhm. And what are you allowing into your
00:41:06
mind? Mhm. That it's it's that simple. Do you trust the voices you're talking about?
00:41:12
Well, I'm talking about information, right? But it's like food. Like Twinky Twinky. Yes. So, are you allow if garbage in
00:41:18
garbage out? Mhm. Which is a computer term. Yes. And so if you are serious about
00:41:24
your stress and your peace and your success in life and your health, you will get very serious about what you
00:41:31
allow in to your mind. You have control, a lot more control than you believe about.
00:41:37
Some might argue some of it's addictive, but go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, it is. Mhm. It is. Absolutely. So, you know,
00:41:43
cocaine's addictive. I don't sleep next to an eightball. You don't? Not in your Lamborghini.
00:41:48
No. No. And I'm I'm kind of, you know, I'm being like punchy about this, but like stop blaming the phone and actually recognize that the phone is a tool. What's on it is addictive, but
00:42:01
if you know it's addictive, then adjust your behavior so that you don't become the tool,
00:42:08
right? So, so when you how you how do you stay informed though and not check out because one of the things is just being completely passive. Um especially and the fact that doom scrolling is
00:42:21
rather enjoyable in some fashion. Well, that's why we do it. Yeah. You know what's interesting about doom scrolling is it actually, you know,
00:42:27
the research is very interesting around this is that it is a lot like pulling a slot machine.
00:42:32
There's a very like kind of seductive trancelike thing of just pulling that slot machine. And that's also why we do it. Mhm. Another reason why we do it is because
00:42:44
all day long we feel like our time and energy has been hijacked by work, by other people's drama, by the
00:42:50
stress of life, by the headlines that when you get home and you plop on the couch, there's almost like this [ __ ] you
00:42:55
experience that you have. You're like, I'm just going to take back my life by by spending three hours doing nothing. We all do it.
00:43:01
And so understanding that and that you're going to fall into that trap every once in a while, which by the way, when you're also stressed,
00:43:07
you tend to do Oh, way more. The research is very clear that when you're very stressed out or
00:43:13
even remotely stressed out, that you are way more susceptible to these cheap dopamine hits. And yes, the phone, not
00:43:20
the phone itself, but the stuff on the phone is designed to keep you on it because
00:43:25
the longer that you give your attention to it the more money people make and the more it gives you things you Tristan Harris just talked about this. But so the thing I want to just say though is you have more power than you
00:43:37
think. So give people practices because they don't think they do because there is the element of addiction is massive
00:43:42
here much more and one of the things I always say is one it's addictive two you need it for work but stop for the reason
00:43:50
why it's I get it but it's hard not to be digital it's impossible I'm not saying don't be a monk and live
00:43:56
in the mountains what I'm saying is develop some [ __ ] boundaries so talk about that here's here's a great way to
00:44:01
start the next time you're standing in line don't reach for your phone difficult Yeah.
00:44:08
Don't reach for your three lousy minutes. Don't reach for your phone. Feel the tension.
00:44:14
Don't reach for your phone. Did you see that? There was an article in the Atlantic saying what things we did before the internet. And someone was
00:44:21
I I read it and then a lot of people were commenting. They said what what did you do? I said everything. We we did
00:44:28
everything like I don't know but we did like it was fine, you know. Or wait it starts with you like literally
00:44:35
stand in line. M 5 432. Don't Don't reach for your phone. And as people start pissing you up, let
00:44:40
them and let me just stand here and take a deep breath and just be in this moment. Boredom. That's what you're talking
00:44:47
about. Or presence. Mhm. Like presence. And just create a pocket between you and this lie you're telling yourself that you need to be constantly
00:45:00
attached to everything. No music. No. Why? Like if you're fine if you want to listen to music. Mhm.
00:45:06
But I just fine if you're listening to a podcast, but if you're reflexively, mindlessly reaching for your phone, train yourself not to. Here's another one. Another one
00:45:17
uh to do is when I am done working, this has changed my life cuz I used to be guilty of I, you know, I'd come downstairs, you have four kids, I have three kids. I would literally be on my phone for work or on my and then I would
00:45:28
shut it down and now I'm ready and then everybody else is on their phones. Now I'm yelling at everybody else to get off their phones. Um
00:45:35
It starts with you. I This is the dumbest thing. And again, this is the one criticism. One of the criticisms
00:45:41
that I get for my work is, "Well, it's so simple." I'm like, "It's not simple to most of us." Okay. Yes. Right. And so, is that how they say it? Just like that
00:45:47
again. Yeah. It's so simple. Oh, well, Robin, [ __ ] is so simple. I'm like, well, only to the intellectuals does it seem
00:45:54
simple to the rest of us idiots. Like, this stuff is pretty difficult. But I set up a charging station in the
00:46:00
kitchen. This is the dumbest thing. I started to realize that in moments I want to be in person, I have to have my
00:46:06
phone off my person. Mhm. And I started to train myself to put my phone off my body
00:46:11
when I was coming downstairs and it's time for dinner or whatever. And I it has changed my life
00:46:17
because I reflexively reach for it without realizing it. Sure. Because it's a when it's on me, right? And when it's off you and you start to train yourself, again, it goes back to that line in the grocery store
00:46:30
where you literally just build this little pocket of peace and presence, now you're building you're taking that
00:46:35
pocket and you're putting that pocket of peace and presence into your life in your home. And what's super cool is
00:46:41
there's a lot of research about this. I think it's the University of California, uh, San Francisco and the University of
00:46:47
Vienna, uh, did these studies about the parental phone use and its impact on kids
00:46:53
completely. That's the problem. Yes. Because everyone's Yes. got the problem. Well, the more you're on your phone, the
00:47:01
more your kids are. Mhm. And the more you feel that your kids behavior is out of control, guess what?
00:47:07
The more yours is. Correct. I always think the people 30 to 50 are the problem. But here's the good news. The good news
00:47:13
is it also starts with you because the more you have balance and boundaries and the more present you are, right, the more your kids become. So another great thing that you can do is we have a
00:47:25
rule that if we are sitting down for dinner and I only it's only dinner, not breakfast. Don't do this at breakfast. It will not work. At dinner, no phones,
00:47:36
not on your body, not on the table. And it has, we've been doing this for probably 10
00:47:41
years in our household and it has changed our life. There's a lot of research about he having just one family
00:47:47
dinner a week and how it just impacts your health and your happiness and your connection
00:47:53
almost five days a week. Yeah. And we play this game high low. It's a camp game. What's the high of the day? What's the low of the game? And at
00:47:58
first your kids stupid game rose and thorn. Yeah. Rose and thorn and bud. Yes. And so you can do those kinds of things. And
00:48:05
now what are you doing? You're building a pocket for your family of peace and connection. I also like the Dr. Tam Bryant. I don't know if you've had her on the I think she's the current
00:48:16
president of the American Psychiatric or Psychology and she's a professor at Pepperdine.
00:48:21
Um she basically had this statement when I interviewed her on our podcast that was like, I really want you to question why you think it's relaxing to watch
00:48:32
horror or crime. Correct. I don't watch it anymore at night. No, I don't watch them. She's like, that is an indication of
00:48:38
age. I'm watching Gillage and anything like silly is the things I will watch. By the way, Hunting Wives, if you want
00:48:44
Hunting Wives, okay, I'm going to I'm going to take it. I live in Vermont. I'm going to take a look at it. Christian Trumpers that suddenly take a
00:48:50
turn toward lesbianism. It's fantastic. Wow. Um inexplicably, but it works. It's fantastic. Um but besides from that, um
00:48:58
one of the things I interviewed the guy who created Adolescence, which was this Netflix special, which is a lot less
00:49:04
traumatic than I thought, which I thought was in because it was so well done. And then the woman who did social
00:49:10
studies which was she followed kids around they gave her access to all their social media and one of the things both
00:49:16
of them took away from was the need for that kids wanted them removed from their
00:49:21
lives. Yes. But the kids were happier without it, which was well part of the problem. And here's
00:49:26
here's the thing is that so our son for his senior project in high school did this big six-monthl long research study
00:49:33
at his public school for the principal headmaster person. And conclusively what all the students
00:49:41
said is they wish everybody weren't on their phones as much. But the problem is the social pressure. And you know,
00:49:46
here's another like big switch for me as a parent is that I was super judgy. I'm like, you know what? What? You guys are all idiots. You're spending all this time online doing dumb stuff on social
00:49:57
media. The truth is like when you see the phone with your kids, I want you to see their two closest friends. Mhm.
00:50:03
Because that's what it represents to them. And there's a tremendous amount of social pressure that I didn't understand
00:50:08
that our kids are under. And again, because I was like miss change and control until I was like, okay, let me
00:50:14
be with you. How do you feel about your phone use? What are you actually using it for? Why why do you feel the need
00:50:19
to sleep with this thing which I don't allow in our house? And that is another boundary by the way is do not sleep with
00:50:25
your phone. Massive study came out by uh from I think it's you I can't oh no University of Southern Florida recent
00:50:31
study uh looking at 11 to 13 year olds. They did find positives around phone and the ability to connect with friends because from a you know social standpoint and a
00:50:44
biological standpoint that's the age where you start to separate and you want to one out of four 11 to 13 year olds are sleeping with the phone in their hand. Mhm. No,
00:50:54
it is the single most damaging thing that a child could do because of the disruption to sleep and the cascading effect that the disruption of sleep has on learning
00:51:06
on everything on everything. Y and I completely had a menopause moment and forgot where I was going with this,
00:51:12
but I like it. I It's fine. It's good. Oh, so Oak So our son Oakley did this is that your next book? Menopause Moment.
00:51:17
No, I'm not I don't know that I'll write another book because Yeah. Yeah. Because when you have something this
00:51:25
like this is an unprecedented moment. First of all, I'm so excited that people are excited about a book. You're not doing the sequel Let them Eat Cake or anything. No. Um because, you know, I'm excited
00:51:38
people are are interested in reading. No, you should do a book called Eat Cake and then put them right next to each
00:51:43
other. Eat cake. I'm telling you. No, I know. I'm not doing You want to know why? I know the paradox of choice,
00:51:50
dude. I know all that research where you overwhelm people with choices. Nope. That's a cute idea. I'm not doing it. I'm not I'm not gonna fall for like the
00:51:56
temptation to do more. Um I I know that like you you said your piece. I said my piece. You said your piece. Yeah. I I feel like I feel like this is my legacy. This is said your piece. I like you said
00:52:08
your piece. Now you're moving on. Oh, back to Oakley. So So he did this huge project and basically conclusively
00:52:15
all the students were like, I'd love to be off this more, but everybody's on it. Yeah. And so the school ended up adopting a policy where they take the
00:52:21
phones at the beginning of class and just dump them in a basket. Right? Because one of the biggest reasons why it's hard for states to legislate this
00:52:27
or school districts to is parents are pains in the assets. That's right. They are. That is you do not need to be in touch with your children. You do not. That is a major
00:52:33
problem. I had a huge argument with a parent about this and I said, "You know what we did before? We went to the office and somehow we didn't die somehow." And then
00:52:40
they brought in school shootings. I'm like, "You need to stop. You need to stop right now." Right? They don't need to text you
00:52:45
during a school shooting. Well, by the way, if they're in the middle of a school shooting, you want them to be
00:52:50
focused on running and hiding. That's correct. Yeah. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about uh
00:52:55
mankeeping. Mel, we're back. It's time to talk about mankeeping. A recent piece in New York Times explores the term
00:53:01
coined by post-doal fellow at Stanford, an Angelica Putio Ferrara. It refers to a growing emotional burden women feel in relationships because the straight men tend only to open up to their wives or
00:53:12
girlfriends. It's driven by a topic we tend to talk a lot about on the show. A 2021 survey from the Survey Center of
00:53:18
America of American Life found that 15% of men said they didn't have any close friends. Uh how would you suggest a
00:53:24
woman relationship experiencing man keeping? Uh I I have Scott Galloway who I have to keep.
00:53:29
Um let him let him. I Oh, that is the We'll go to this. You know why the show's popular? I let
00:53:36
him. That is exactly why. So we'll go Oh, I don't know. I've seen the comments. Oh, I don't let him. mayor female
00:53:42
listeners are getting tired of it of him. I know that. But then they come up to me. I know. But people listen to like people that irritate themselves.
00:53:47
Yes, that's exactly right. But they do come up to me. They like the struggle. So would I don't read comments ever. Speaking of which, I never do. I don't
00:53:54
know why. It's just one of my I only do it when I'm preparing to come on a show. Oh, do you? Okay. So, um, thank you for
00:53:59
telling me about it though, but I'm still going to not listen. Let them complain in the comments cuz you know what? You can't control what
00:54:04
other people think. That's right. Good for you. Let them Yeah. I have a lot of people do like, "How can you put up with I'm like, "Yeah, it's none of your business. It's
00:54:11
none of your beeswax." Um, so talk about this man keep. How do women experience in maneping and talk about the
00:54:17
boundaries around that? Because I think dating has definitely for some reason become harder. Um, and what advice do
00:54:23
you have for men? Well, I thought that this was a very interesting article because it was very polarizing. All the women were like,
00:54:29
"Finally, like somebody's saying something." And all the guys were like, "Uh, this is a very broad voice, you know,
00:54:35
like broad broad. This is reductive. Yeah. Can't give me a break." Yeah. So, I'm one of these people that likes
00:54:41
to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. And there is a major issue going on when it comes to men and their ability to express and understand their emotions
00:54:54
and their ability to connect and their ability to ask for help. And you know, interestingly, just next week, we have this episode airing with Jason Wilson,
00:55:01
this New York Times bestselling author who does incredible work in Detroit with young men and emotional resilience. He's
00:55:09
incredible. And it's the the episodes like the reason why boys and men are quietly struggling and how to support
00:55:15
them. So, let's just take it for a fact that men are struggling. And Jason Wilson's analogy is women
00:55:22
tend to have a emotional depth or at least awareness that is broader than most men. And there's a bazillion factors whether it is the socialization
00:55:34
of boys, whether it is gender stereotypes, whether it is the framework of a lot of male friendships, which I'm
00:55:41
going to get into because I think this tracks back to the nature of friendship for young boys versus girls. and then
00:55:47
what changes when you become an adult. But he basically says women like have that like 64 crayon box that they're
00:55:53
dealing with. And dudes have like the eight, right? And that's an issue because if you don't
00:55:59
know the deeper issue that you're dealing with, you're going to always reach for anger or sadness. And typically if somebody's expressing
00:56:05
anger or sadness, there's a lot of other deeper emotions going on that people don't know how to talk about.
00:56:11
So often shame, but go ahead. Yeah, often shame. And you know, if you don't know the difference between the two, shame, you know, guilt is when I
00:56:17
did something bad and shame is when you say I'm bad because of what I did. And so blaming men for this doesn't
00:56:24
actually solve the bigger problem. And I think the bigger problem starts a lot earlier. Like if you look at all the
00:56:30
research around friendship, boys tend to create friendships in groups. Girls tend to have closer relationships
00:56:37
one-on-one. A lot of men tend to make their friends based on teams and based on groups that are organized
00:56:43
for them. And when they graduate from high school or for college, they end up going to the next team, which is work.
00:56:48
And now we're in a situation where we have hideberg work. We're in a situation where people are very disconnected. And
00:56:54
you have a situation where guys have defaulted to needing groups to be organized in order to feel like you have
00:57:01
relationships with other people. Yep. It's so interesting. My daughter has individual friends and my sons have
00:57:06
the boys. Yes. Which is really interesting. Here's the boys. Yes. Exactly. And so when you get into a
00:57:12
heterosexual relationship, you are now in a relationship with somebody who is used to connecting one-on-one. And so
00:57:17
you are probably in a lot of cases training this person for the first time in some of the deeper nuances of your emotional or inner life.
00:57:30
And so I don't think it's a bad thing that you are that you might be in a relationship with somebody that leans on you and that needs your support. But I do think it is a bad thing, right?
00:57:41
If you are not effective in getting your person to be more proactive with friendship and
00:57:47
to be more proactive outside of the relationship. Oh, hell yes. Hell yes. And you know, I
00:57:53
I write about this in the let them theory and it's a really helpful framework that makes you really think
00:57:58
about friendship differently. Um, most of us don't understand friendship. Mhm. and friendship. Once I explain this to you, you'll you'll you'll be like, "Oh my god." Like,
00:58:10
so simple. Yeah, it's so simple. Like, what the [ __ ] So, so for your whole life, the
00:58:16
conditions for friendship from 0 to 20 were there because you were with people your age all the time, right?
00:58:22
And you were doing the same things all the time and you had the same milestones, celebrated birthdays, graduations, same vacation schedules,
00:58:28
all of it. Right? When you hit 20, all of a sudden the great scattering, as I call it, happens. And everybody scatters in different directions. And then the only thing that's holding your old
00:58:38
friends together is a group text chain that gets kind of dwindles to less and less and less as people start to jump
00:58:45
into their lives. And then we start to say, I have no friends, which is not true. And so, let me tell you the three
00:58:51
pillars based on research that need to be present to create friendship. And I want people to understand this because
00:58:57
when you see the pillars, you can support people in your life, whether it's young boys or young men or your
00:59:03
partner in understanding what it's going to take to create these relationships that matter.
00:59:09
So number one, you have to have proximity. Proximity is the single most important condition for friendship.
00:59:14
There is research at the University of Kansas that was done about friendship. And I'm going to probably get the the
00:59:20
facts or the actual digits wrong, but I'm going to be in the right range. In order to have a casual friend, you need
00:59:26
to spend almost 80 hours with somebody. In order to have a super close friend, over 200 hours,
00:59:31
right? And the proximity creates the condition. So, you know, whatever. Yes. Other
00:59:38
school parents, other school parents, seeing them on the sidelines, in class, sitting next to people, at work, you used to have a lot
00:59:44
of friends at work, right? Because you spent so much time with them. So that brings me to the second condition that
00:59:50
needs to be present for good friendship to happen and that is timing. So timing means are we in the same time
00:59:56
of our lives? Are we both raising kids? Are we around the same age? Are we interested in the same things? This
01:00:03
explains why you can spend 50 to 60 hours a week with people at work and really love them and they're awesome,
01:00:09
but you're not best friends, right? Because you may be in your 20s and so you go out and get wasted and then you're puking in a garbage can on
01:00:16
Sunday night and then Monday morning it's like, "Hey, what'd you do?" "Oh, I went to a soccer game with my kids."
01:00:21
You're in different timing of life. So there's only so much debt. Third condition for friendship, energy.
01:00:27
Energy is just about whether or not there's a fit or not. And I've come to believe it has a lot more to do about
01:00:33
what your priorities are. This is why you can be super close friends with people, but if you decide to stop
01:00:38
drinking, all of a sudden you're not that close because the energy shifts. Now, here's the most important thing.
01:00:45
The reason why it's important to understand that it's about proximity, it's about timing, and it's about energy. Is that when friendships
01:00:52
naturally come and go, Mhm. it doesn't mean anything's wrong, right? It's actually good. I agree. This this you got to let them let them come and go. And the mistake that people make
01:01:03
is they start to say, "I have no friends." That's not true. Mhm. People come and go in your life and it's
01:01:09
a beautiful thing. And at any moment, you can decide that friendship is important to you and make it a priority. Yes. And you know, every time in your life that you move or you go through a
01:01:21
divorce or you have any major job change, you're going to experience a little scattering of friendship because
01:01:27
proximity will change and so will the timing and so will energy. Like for example, my husband and
01:01:32
I moved to southern Vermont um when we were in our 50s and it was shocking to move to a new place
01:01:40
and literally go, "Oh my god, I have no friends here, right? I got to start all over." Mhm.
01:01:45
And you feel like that first week in college, where it feels like everybody has got their group and you're the only idiot
01:01:51
sitting alone, you know, in the cafeteria and you don't want to be that cringy person that goes up to other people. What did I do? Well, first I
01:01:58
cried and stayed alone in my house for 6 months. Wow. And literally was like, "Why are you even saying like, you know,
01:02:05
this is why I'm so good at giving advice because I [ __ ] up my life all the time." And I find myself in these situations
01:02:11
where I'm like, "Okay, well, nobody's going to magically parachute out of the sky and fix my life. No one's coming.
01:02:16
I'm either going to suffer in misery or I'm going to [ __ ] fix this." And again, let's go back to some of the
01:02:22
things we talked about. The brain, Dr. K, defaults to what's easy. Being miserable and crying is easy.
01:02:28
Mhm. And at some point you'll get to a point where you're like, it's actually harder to stay in here and sit with myself than to push my ass out the door
01:02:35
and to go to that local coffee shop. You have to make a thing. When I moved to California from DC, I had a wonderful
01:02:40
social life in DC, friends, everything else. And I moved to California to cover the nason internet industry. I didn't know anyone
01:02:46
and I and I just broke up with someone, too. So, it was just like uh and I spent a couple months like crying in a in a in
01:02:53
a rainy San Francisco house. And I remember when spring came, I you know, I'm gonna say yes to everything.
01:02:58
Everything I'm gonna even the smallest little thing and it was changed everything. Yeah, it does. Like I started honest to
01:03:05
God by just going to the coffee shop. Mhm. And then instead of sitting there alone, I forced myself to start turning and
01:03:12
talking to people in a line instead of looking at my phone. You know, come here. Oh, I like your socks. Like just complimenting somebody
01:03:18
is a great way. Love bombing. Yeah. To just strike up a turn and talk to the people next to you. Just it's a
01:03:24
way to start to come out of your shell. Actually, longevity depends on talking to strangers. It's really interesting.
01:03:29
Yes. Are you going to talk about the warm like connection like the SC? Like so here's the thing. We undervalue
01:03:37
the foundational importance of what they they call them something like cold relationships, but it's I I like to call them warm relationships. These are the barista at the coffee
01:03:49
shop. This is the person that you see at the dog park. Stopping and talking to folks, learning
01:03:54
their names. And here's a great hack. So, for your favorite coffee shop or the place that you go a lot, your restaurants, whatever, the gym, create a a contact uh listing,
01:04:06
put in the coffee shop name. In the notes section, put their names with a description. Beard and glasses
01:04:12
makes a great cup of coffee. His name is Kevin. And then you're going to learn that his dog is Olly. Mhm. And then before you go into the coffee
01:04:18
shop, you look at it. Yes. And then you can walk in and you're Hey, Kevin. How you doing? It's Mel. And you
01:04:25
start to build this framework that actually matters because you start to feel seen and you start to feel like there is a small community. And from there,
01:04:36
you loosen up and start to and they don't have to be your friend. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And it actually there's so many studies now as
01:04:43
I I told you I'm working on this longevity series talking to people you've never there's a
01:04:48
group called I think time spent that puts together six people it's got it's got 100,000 people across the globe doing this you've never met you meet six people you they just put you together
01:05:00
and you spend the evening with them and for every study shows this is like one of the everyone's like what can you
01:05:05
about longevity should you you know do shrimp semen you should do this you should that I'm like shrimp you know what I mean you know what I I
01:05:11
know, but I'm like like I'm digging the vein out of the back of that thing before I eat it. Shrimp seaming
01:05:16
apparently. Um anyway, that said, the biggest thing is community and meeting people you don't know and
01:05:23
establishing. It's fascinating like actual links to longevity with that. Of course, like it's not like in life.
01:05:30
Mhm. Yes. It's not about the destination or the journey, right? It's about the company. Oh, I knew you were going to say that.
01:05:37
Um so, one personal question. And how do I learn to let Scott? Do you have to? No, I'm just kidding. Um,
01:05:44
apparently not. What is it? What is it about Scott that you need to No, I don't. I do let him. I actually,
01:05:49
interestingly enough, it's the first relationship often with men like Scott sometimes when they were sort of narcissistic or pushed pushed on things,
01:05:55
I would try to stop them. And I think Scott's been the greatest um success because I do let him like and I think it
01:06:03
gives people permission not to fight with people so much to be able to disagree. Yes. and be okay with it and still be
01:06:09
not just be civil but be friends with people you disagree with and it gives people permission to laugh a little bit
01:06:14
like well I want you to imagine something so one of the reasons why the let them theory is so important particularly in
01:06:20
this polarized world is that we all have a complete intolerance of an opposing point of view
01:06:27
and the only way and this is again very researchbased I'll give I'll give you kind of a a visual to think about because the only way that you are
01:06:39
actually going to influence somebody else's opinion is if you give them the space to first share theirs and to feel understood. So I want you to imagine you're that you've got two
01:06:52
glasses and one glass is filled with red water and one glass is filled with blue water and these represent two people
01:06:59
that have two very different points of view about life. What we do in life when somebody starts to go off or act in a way that we don't like is instead of like when they start to go off and act
01:07:09
in a way, imagine that red glass is tipping over and they're pouring all of it out of their brain. Mhm. The second you react, respond like disagree [ __ ]
01:07:22
Like what that is actually is it's as if you've taken your glass of blue water and tried to pour it on top of the red.
01:07:28
There's no room in the brain to hear it. Mhm. They have to first feel as though you have listened and heard what they've had
01:07:34
to say. And so I think a lot about the fact that the let saying let them forces me to
01:07:42
stop just getting so pissed off or getting your digs in or getting my digs in and just let them
01:07:49
pour it out. It's sort of like somebody puking. Like if if somebody's puking, you don't stand in front of them. Stand in front of them. You stand to the side.
01:07:55
You stand far away. Yeah. Do you hold their hair like if they got long hair, right? you rub their back. Is there anything else?
01:08:00
Maybe anything else? Yeah. Yeah. You know, let it come out. And then Mhm. somebody is able to hear you, right? But we have to build this tolerance of
01:08:11
being able to let people be who they are and have their opinions and then let me be more effective at understanding what I think I hear.
01:08:22
Yeah. And then saying something. But I want to give you a framework, okay, to use with Scott. This comes from
01:08:27
Charles Dwig, fueled surprise winning. Yeah, Charles is fantastic. So, he has this three-part framework. He basically
01:08:34
says people are only ever having three different conversations, right? They're having a practical one, which is really like, okay, I have a goal. Let's
01:08:40
find a solution. They're having an emotional one where they're venting. And what's the goal of an emotional
01:08:46
conversation? I want empathy. Cara, I want you to validate me. Or they're having a social one. They
01:08:53
just want acknowledgement. Mhm. And I think often listening to you guys, Scott is having an emotional or social
01:08:59
conversation and you're trying to have a practical one. Uhhuh. And one of the things that have changed
01:09:05
my parenting is I've literally adopted this phrase that is, do you want me to listen or would you like my advice? And nine times out of 10, people just want you to listen. Another another
01:09:17
thing that you could say to Scott that I love cuz I you know when he when he does things that are just like oh my god like
01:09:22
when you opened up the show where he was in his apartment he made that joke about how like the last time a woman was here
01:09:28
you know $60 almost exactly you can just say dude that is below a standard for my response
01:09:33
really or you can also say could you repeat that yeah oh I like that one I think is priy
01:09:39
the first one is priggy but in the p could you could you repeat that he's going to be like I didn't mean
01:09:46
Yeah, but the pause and asking somebody to repeat it forces them to reflect. Yeah. On what just happened. You can also say, "Did you actually mean to be offensive?"
01:09:57
No. No. That sounds pricky. That must be See, there you go. You can do But so, but the depends on the person and how
01:10:03
you want to solve it. But I love that that pause and just be like, "Can you repeat that? What?"
01:10:09
I was just kidding. You know what I do sometimes though? When people are acting badly, I go, "Is that the wind? is that like I pretend I
01:10:15
never heard it in the first or just not acknowledge it in any way. It's often very effective.
01:10:21
Yeah. You know, is that the wind is my favorite expression. I used to do it with my kids when they were being really
01:10:26
bad and they're like my my one son the other day I did it with my three-year-old. He was being really mean to his sister and I said, "Claire, just
01:10:32
say is that the wind? Is that the wind?" Because he was trying to hurt her. But see, the only problem with doing that in
01:10:38
our family is that that's a cover for a fart. All right. Mel, we'll take one more
01:10:43
quick break and we'll be Thank you for the advice. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Mel Mel, let's hear some
01:10:50
wins or fails. Would you like me to go first to share? Okay. Um, a fail. Tim Cook, it's not a fail. It's a it's a it's a it's a win for him. Apple is trying to stay in Trump's good graces,
01:11:01
investing an additional hundred billion in US jobs and suppliers, bringing a total of 600 billion over four years.
01:11:06
Although, if you look at the last time, they didn't end up spending that. This is a lot basically a press release and
01:11:11
it includes a $2.5 billion Kentucky based Corning which they were already there. So Glass and the iPhones and
01:11:17
watchmen made in the USA but not in the uh not iPhones but they've already been doing that. So they're doing a lot of
01:11:22
things for Trump's benefit uh just to and in doing so he was in the oval office announcing the New Deal and he
01:11:29
presented Trump with this plaque that was a piece of this Corning glass along with a gold stand. And I just thought,
01:11:36
here's one of the good guys doing this. And he is a decent fella, I have to say. But everything, it reminds you that
01:11:43
everything is for the shareholders, no matter what. Profits over people. Profits over people. Even someone who's
01:11:49
a relatively decent fellow like Tim Cook. You don't have to be an Elon Musk to do something that's a real fail. And
01:11:55
so that's where we are right now. If people like this do this, you know where we are. And it works because giving him
01:12:01
a little gold statue makes him feel better. Um, I think my win is um I love South Park. They've done it again. I just they're so good and I sometimes I don't like some of the stuff they do,
01:12:11
but I gotta say really funny. Uh, they don't they don't suffer fools. They uh they brought the latest episode. They
01:12:17
had already done the Trump one that got everyone all hot and bothered right in the middle of a deal that they that the
01:12:23
company did something really um terrible to in order to get the deal done. Um, but they made JD Vance look like Tattoo from Fantasy Island. I'm old enough to remember Fantasy Island.
01:12:34
The plane the I can't do that one. I know the scare the [ __ ] out of me. But um but think go back and watch it.
01:12:40
Some of them stay okay. That one you you're really like, "Oh my god, the show poked fun at Homeland Security uh had
01:12:48
Christy Gnome with a running gag of her face continually melting and she keeps shooting puppies obviously." And I just
01:12:54
they went there and I like when people do that and I that's what satire is for and it can seem mean but whoever's in
01:13:00
power I really like when you when when this is what you use your your satirical talents for. I thought it was really
01:13:06
great. So those are my wins and fails. So my fail is this recent uh case that the federal court handed down in San
01:13:13
Francisco lawyers coming back. Yeah. Well no this this really pisses me off honestly. All right. where they ruled in favor of
01:13:20
AI companies having the legal right to upload copyrighted material into large language
01:13:28
modeled uh things. And let me just explain what this means. If you write a book Mhm.
01:13:34
somebody can go and buy your book for $25 and upload the entire transcript into AI
01:13:40
Mhm. and use it with unfettered access or any citation to you or any link out to you or any anything to you. Yeah. And this is the single biggest raid I
01:13:54
think of intellectual property. Mhm. And there are lots of authors that are bringing lawsuits. They brought
01:13:59
Tony Robbins is Yep. Tony Robbins is. And you know what what is a huge fail and again we're kind
01:14:05
of touching on something we already talked about is the lack of regulation. To put this in perspective, every single
01:14:11
day there are hundreds, if not thousands of AI generated fake [ __ ] of me online.
01:14:18
I I had the same happen in my book come out at Amazon. Yes. And here's the problem. Mhm.
01:14:23
I And I'm not whining. This is an occupational hazard. I am concerned as a lawyer and a citizen
01:14:29
because I have 38 million followers and one of the largest podcasts in the world. You do. I cannot get the platforms to take this
01:14:37
[ __ ] down. Right. And if I can't do it, how the hell is the stealing stuff? They're It's not even stealing my stuff. They are stealing my face and my voice and putting out a
01:14:50
Oh, they already do. They already there there are things with me out there talk saying all kinds of inflammatory stuff
01:14:56
about Pakistan and I can't get it taken down. Mhm. And if I can't do that, what's going to
01:15:02
happen to the average person? Mhm. Who is having their identity stolen? who is having this happen to them. What is happening to the independent artists that can't afford a lawyer who's
01:15:13
having their work ripped off? Our podcast, my audio book got uploaded to uh an AI bot and they generated a fake version of it with two AI bots reading
01:15:26
the audio book. And under this case law, the fair use doctrine and derivative works, they have a claim that it generated by AI with fake AI robot voices that that
01:15:40
is now protected because it's derivative of what I did. Now, here's the problem that I have. You
01:15:45
can upload it to Spotify, which they did. It started ranking in the top 10 podcasts in the world marketed as my
01:15:51
audio book. It took me three months to get them to remove it. Three months. And I have the means to
01:15:56
get it removed. Why? Well, because there's no regulation and there's no requirement, and this is why we're failing.
01:16:02
There needs to be a requirement that something that is either generated by or spoken by a AI is labeled as such,
01:16:08
because I will compete against a robot. But I'd like to know that it's a robot. As a consumer, I would like to know if
01:16:15
I'm listening to your voice or if I'm listening to something that's somewhere in some room overseas created in some
01:16:23
deni. They also get money that does do you Savannah Guthrie wrote a book about her
01:16:29
religion and someone some AI made a workbook that her mother bought it thinking it was her workbook on how to
01:16:36
do this and and so the lack of the requirement of labeling I think a lot of consumers would go well
01:16:42
I don't want to listen I don't want to read that news if AI wrote it I'd rather read the news by this journalist that I
01:16:47
trust is why so many people are going to substack so I think it's a huge fail this litigation like this this is to Do
01:16:54
you want to create an AI version of yourself? There's a lot of No. No. Um, some people that are doing Absolutely not. I I one version of me is
01:17:01
enough. Um, so I I would like to stay married. We're going to be married for 29 years this year. I'd like to stay
01:17:06
married. Um, I feel like this case law is as big of a deal as Citizens United. Wow. I really do. Like I believe Citizens
01:17:16
United laid the foundation for the unraveling of democracy. Full stop. I believe this case law is 100% setting a
01:17:25
precedent that is really going to unravel copyrighted work and artistic work and it's also setting a precedent for a lack of regulation which from a consumer
01:17:38
standpoint I want to know don't you want to know if a person I know I've been railing about this for so that's that case law for me is a
01:17:45
major loss here's a huge win I think at the age of 60 and 56 Mhm. You and I are [ __ ] winning. To be competing on a global level. I'm 62. Yeah, I know you are. So, you look
01:17:56
incredible. Thank you once again. Thank you. You're welcome. I love I agree. That's the best response I have
01:18:01
ever heard. Everybody, did you hear that? I want you to send this that section right there. Send this to every
01:18:07
woman and girl you have. When you compliment them, teach the women and girls in your life to say, "I agree. Thank you." I agree. Thank you. You're right.
01:18:13
Correct. Amazing. Some guy came with something else. I did a work thing and they're like, "That was really good." I go, "No, it was [ __ ]
01:18:19
fantastic." And they're like, "Well, that's ego maniacal." I said, "You just said I was great." No, that's a fact. It's not ego. It's facts. It's facts. Them's facts.
01:18:26
But I feel in this day and age with all of the tech and the fact that in the podcasting space, it's typically about either entertainment or, you know, kind
01:18:36
of pop culture or spreading conspiracy theory. for us at our age to have built a podcast that people actually turn to and trust. I think that means we are truly winning
01:18:48
and I love doing it at our age. So popularity of Crohn's, you know, remember that word crone.
01:18:54
It's a word for old ladies. Cone. I've never heard that word. Oh my god. Look it up. Crohn's. Is it because Crohn's disease? You get it when you're old?
01:19:00
No. C R O N E S. Crohn's. Is that how you spell Crohn's? I don't know. I don't know what I'm not as smart as you. I like You know what? Don't. No.
01:19:07
Mark Twain said it's spell. It takes a simple mind to spell a word one way and half the words I don't even know what
01:19:13
they mean. Do your simple voice again. So sad. That Mel Robbins simple. Well, you know, everything she says is really simple. Why didn't you do it? Was it? I'd say why didn't you do it then?
01:19:24
One time years ago, Bill Gates was in a meeting with me and he was talking about the iPhone, which was the most beautiful
01:19:30
simple um thing, iPod. Actually, there was before that. And he goes, "What is it? Just a hard drive in a white box. It's so trivial." And I said, "If it's so easy, why didn't you do it?" Well, it
01:19:43
only seems simple when somebody does it. Correct. That is and that's the genius in it. It's very easy to make something
01:19:49
complicated. It is extraordinarily difficult and takes a lot of rigor to distill
01:19:55
complicated things into a simple thing that anybody can use and you can remember and share with somebody else.
01:20:01
And that's what I do. And contrary to that, Steve Jobs said that to me once, he said, "It's hard. It's easy to make
01:20:07
um it's hard to make complex things simple. It's easy to make simple things complex." And I was like, "Oh." I was
01:20:14
like, "Ba." Like, I didn't know what I was like, "Oh my god, he's right once again." But it's true. Which you do,
01:20:20
Mel. You're fantastic. We We love having you on here. It's really wonderful. You
01:20:25
You deserve all your success. I At first, when I first heard you, I was like, "No." And then I'm like, "Oh, yeah. She's right. She's fantastic. I
01:20:32
didn't say she's fantastic. You know what? I don't want to be right. I'd like to be useful. No, that's what I mean. I think you're
01:20:38
you hit on something and it's not it's actually got substance behind and science which you you cited and stuff like that. And that's the key thing for
01:20:45
a lot of people who give easy answers or seem like easy answers. You have the backup which I really appreciate and
01:20:50
that's all you have to do. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to
01:20:55
nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for this show or call 8551 pivot. Okay, that's the show.
01:21:01
Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'll be back next week
01:21:07
with another amazing uh co-host. I heard Rachel Maddo's coming. David Remnick's coming. We've got so many great people. But Mel, thank you so much. I love Scott Free August because I get to spend time
01:21:18
with people like you and I'm had enough of him for a little while. I will read us out. Today's show is produced by
01:21:24
Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode. Nishad Kerwa is
01:21:30
Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks
01:21:36
for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod.
01:21:42
We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.