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Ruth uh Ben Ben Gat is a professor of history at NYU and author of strong men musolini to the present she also writes
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the substack Lucid oh what a good name which focuses on abuses of power and threats democracy Ruth welcome thank you
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I'm so glad to be here so we want to talk dictators uh I want to start with something you posted on X last week
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after Donald Trump shared violent imagery of Joe Biden on true social you wrote wake up people this is an
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emergency uh a lot of people have concerns about that imagery but what it specifically that made you sound the
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alarm here you've been doing it for a while so I'm not so sure that's the newest thing in the world for you but
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but talk about why why that bothered you in particular of the many things that could bother you about Donald Trump yeah
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so it's about you know because because I feel like uh Donald Trump has been um waging and his GOP enablers have been
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waging uh a whole campaign to delegitimize all of our Democratic institutions and in particular uh you
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know attacking Joe Biden this was an image which uh showed Joe Biden it was a you know a sticker on the back of a
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pickup uh as though he were a hostage uh kidnapped and if you study coups a third
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of my books strong men is about coups and authoritarian takeovers what is this showing it's
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showing an outcome of a political situation where Biden is has met a bad end where he's somehow been overthrown
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and ended up tied up mhm and this is being uh you know this is being depicted as something positive and so it's
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continuing the coup and it's just it's it's extremely dangerous uh for obvious reasons and I feel like this is um
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normalizing this is allowing people which is the point right I mean you you called it you said Trump's repeated uh
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elevation of dictators as models of leadership should be understood at part of a re-education strategy and one thing
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he does is this is not new he that was CNN if you remember him punching CNN y that this was a years ago he he did one
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that I wrote a column about when he was you not just um you know standby and stand whatever the heck he said he says
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it a lot it's but it's not a new Fresh thing but you're calling it a re-education strategy that's been
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ongoing right that it hasn't stopped the coup and he continues to do that explain
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why because because he says he's joking he says he's kidding he's this is just him that this is his brand of humor such
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that it's not funny but still um talk about the re-education part of it yeah it's it's interesting what he's been
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doing uh and this is since the fascists uh melini and Hitler you've got to re-educate people uh to see violence in
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a positive way and even make it into something patriotic and even morally righteous and Trump has been using his
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rallies since 2015 and uh this was part of my report for the January 6 committee he's been
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just over and over saying like oh in the good old days we used to be able to punch you know protesters so there's
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that vector and then uh he's been also elevating dictators like doesn't matter you know North Korea China whatever they
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are communist fascist uh as as positive models of leadership Orban he had he recently met with uh Victor Orban from
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Hungary go ahead yeah and so Orban what does he say I take seriously what says and he says that you know orban's so
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great he's so strong because he says this is how it's going to be and everybody just accepts it so he's
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telling us what his what he's telling Americans his followers that this is a positive model so if you take the
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violence as a way of moving history forward which was January 6 and you take the positive um refor the positive
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praise for these murderous dictators you get a re-education strategy because he said saturated the media environment for
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now many years over and over and over again it's nice to meet you Professor I don't think we've met before um so we
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spent a lot of time talking about what a danger Trump is and how wrong and really
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um anti-American a lot of his activities much less his rhetoric are but he was he
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was elected uh by the US and he continues to pull really well despite all of these
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things that are horrific to everyone on this podcast what is it about the atmospherics in the US um um that has
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led the populist to support this individual who we all agree uh does not acquit himself as we would
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want someone who wants to be the president what's happened in America what's changed here that's a great
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question and um there are patterns to these things and uh in the research for my book when when there's been a
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perception that um there's been too much Social Pro progress and and certain people are losing out uh it could be
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conservative Elites uh who are worried about losing their privileges um it could be people thinking there's too
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much gender emancipation too much uh racial emancipation you get a kind of counterrevolution that's a that's a big
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word or you get a backlash and and that's when somebody like a Donald Trump is appealing but but
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a Donald Trump also um models himself for that environment and the thing about these strong men is that they're highly
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sensitive to they read the marketplace and they understand what is uh want what is wanted and they model themselves they
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will be whatever they need to be to get to power because they have no morals they're just about getting control so so
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Donald Trump comes up and he was the perfect person as the anti- Obama um and he he was the the male brute so he
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addressed the people who felt that you know women had too much power uh same-sex marriages were taking over all
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of the racial stuff and so that's that's what he did and he and he also told these people that he loved them that
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they were the Forgotten and so there's a sense that he's not just going to represent them he's going to protect
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them and take care of them Daddy a big daddy he's daddy he's big daddy and he's remained Big Daddy and once they bond to
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him and they feel feel protected U but they're also protective of him because he's also the victim and musolini was
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the victim erdogan's the victim they all do this and it's highly effective this manipulation of emotions Scott you write
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about you know masculinity and and emotions and and Trump is the latest example of somebody who's extremely
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skilled at using this can I can I ask a followup Tera go ahead first off Professor I I just think what I think
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that's such an important point because been thinking a lot about row recently and I don't think people zero
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in on some of the things you're talking about to really understand and I would just want to double click on it my sent
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as you talk about them wanting to return to an Era where they were more comfortable and I think it's more
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specific than that um just as young men have fallen further faster than any group in America the ascent globally of
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women over the last 30 years is unprecedented they've doubled their elected positions in parliaments there
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are now more women globally enrolled in tertiary Ed education in men and I think
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the extreme of any religion is really uncomfortable and wants these up women to sit down and I think it's I think
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it's I think that's what row is I don't think it's about birth isn't this specifically about telling um very
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conservative sex who sex of of of of of religious extremists who have disproportionate power and unfortunately
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young men who feel shunned by women then I'm going to take power back from women
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oh totally and who better than a repeated you know abuser uh somebody who boasts about you know uh putting women
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in their place and and this was part of his marketing strategy from the very beginning and that's why when the um Hol
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the Access Hollywood stuff came out I knew that it would actually help him because you know this who these are the
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people I study it's been it was horrible to write the book and be in their heads
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you know melini was a serial rapist um and many others Qaddafi as well so this is part of their their Glamour and until
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we uh wean ourselves from this kind of toxic brute you know idea that this Brute Force this this this ideal of
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masculinity is glamorous and desirable we're going to be susceptible to these Donald Trumps so can you ask the
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similarities can I pick up on that between Trump and some of these classic dictators I did not know that about M
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musolini are there differences also yeah the outcomes are different so you know we're not going to whatever happens is
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not going to be a a hitlerian one party state or or a North Korean one party state but um the similarities are that
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they these people are highly sophisticated at communication and whatever the era they're in they use the
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latest tools of communication to forge a direct and unmediated bond with their followers so musolini uh you know was he
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was gesticulating and he started in the age of Silent Cinema he used news reels now Hitler of course
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he had the radio um and he ranted and the Nazis invested in like state-of-the-art uh audio technology uh
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so that when he had rallies his voice would reverberate in ways that made him feel seem more Godly because that's part
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of the personality cult so they all do personality Cults which the it's so interesting the rules have not changed
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for hundred years you have to be a man of the people so you're relatable and certainly Trump is but you have to be
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the man of above all other men so they all use this and so Modi used um Holograms uh when he ran initially for
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office so he could be everywhere and nowhere like a god uh berus scone who owned TV networks use satellite TV to be
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everywhere and Trump used Twitter so that's one thing they do they have these bonds with uh that people feel they're
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speaking directly and only to them which is which hasn't changed for a hundred years if you're advising the white do
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how would you match this because Biden's certainly not that person I yeah I think
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um in general uh the we can learn from autocrats uh uh to make more use of emotion in politics there's one of the
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things that autocrats do really well is create these tribes and these communities and they make people feel
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cared for it now it's bogus of course they're just really trying to manipulate them Trump doesn't care you know at the
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beginning of the pandemic I didn't an interview and I told I said that uh Trump doesn't care if you live or die
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and people got upset but that's just how it is but they seem to care about people
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so so Democrats in general around the world can make more use of emotion of joy of Hope of love and and Biden does
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this in his own quiet way but um it it it it'd be ideal if if it's somebody who is a more charismatic energetic vehicle
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for that kind of is there someone like that is there someone like that um I'm I'm not sure I mean I'm a
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big fan of Pete buddh as a communicator um and he's he's been he's got a restrained personality but he's able to
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talk he goes on Fox and he's liked on Fox he's a very very he's a great asset as a
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communicator um and he has everything I think um as a communicator and he could develop in this direction uh if given
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the space what about worries you the most about a trump second term um I what worries me the most about Trump's second
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term is that he has been very clear about his intent to um have an American version of fascism um now that's again
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that's not going to be a one- party state but he wants to uh turn the US you know AR the military if he could but
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certainly um law enforcement to repress uh large numbers of Americans to deport you know millions and he would uh stop
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at nothing to try and gain total control uh of the United States and that's what
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authoritarianism is at its very essence it's the it's the executive trying to um
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you know overwhelm and the other branches of government so that they can be safe and be uh never prosecuted again
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can he actually do it we're such a big and diverse country with so many like you can't imagine California going along
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there's elements in every state like this but how do you manage to do that I mean Germany was a very particular
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smaller country so it was Italy so is Turkey in a way you know although it's much more diverse turkeyy is more
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diverse with Eran um how do you and certainly Modi has has has done that but has limits has had limits in terms of
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what he can do so how do you look at that is that is is that a possibility I we've all seen the science fiction about
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it we've all seen those apocalyptic movies where that happens um yeah I mean to Hitler you know hit musolini is
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actually a better example um or somebody like an orbon because to versus Hitler because today things often H happen
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gradually um you but Trump is you know and project 2025 is about you know having an accelerated transformation of
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government using executive orders perhaps the Insurrection act and you know we know
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there are many things that he can do the main thing that definitely would happened because it happened during the
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first Trump Administration is so that Trump is not interested in governance he's interested in using uh public
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office for private benefit and you know in his first Administration he spent one
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out of every three days not governing at the White House but visiting Trump branded
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properties and so this kind of enrichment uh of you for you and your family and cronies that definitely would
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go on he's already said you know he's boasting that he accepted uh money during his first presidency from the
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Chinese for quote services and I'm still trying to get somebody to ask him what those Services were so the White House
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would be for sale uh our intelligence would be for sale perhaps it already has been you know keeping documents in his
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bathroom all of this uh left lack of um accountability and eraser of public versus private that's the strongman
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thing they don't they don't accept any eraser any divide between public and private it's all theirs and it's all
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Theirs to sell and profit from um Professor my sense is the the media has a difficult time trying to figure out
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the approach to covering Trump do you do you have any thoughts around where the media has has uh
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succeeded or not succeeded and in the role the media plays to trying to figure out how to cover this guy great
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question yeah yeah it's a little like Frederick burchall in the New York Times Reporter
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who sort of normalized Hitler for a long time oh yeah and and mus musini actually
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had a column A syndicated column because uh the anti-communist uh Baron Hurst was
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his backer that reached uh a thousand newspapers for eight years in the United States so talk about normalizing I think
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you know we know the the the Press has been it was working with an outdated Playbook uh A playbook that worked uh in
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in terms of two um if you had two candidates and two parties that were uh that still bought into democracy the
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problem is it's they've been slow to understand how to cover our situation where we're a bipartisan Republic but
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one of our parties no longer is in democracy I see the GOP as an autocratic party and if it were a sovereign entity
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its foreign policy would be pro- autocratic Pro Putin Pro orbon that's a reality and they've struggled so that's
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where they they they still do the both sides ISM um but it's a little more subtle because for example Meet the
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Press um which which has a bipartisan uh viewership um um Kristen Welker has done
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very well actually bringing Republican guests on and probing them and the audience there are Republicans who don't
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want to see perhaps a republican um aggressively bashed but will listen to a careful probing of their
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hypocrisies of their inconsistencies so so there it's just uh you can you can think that this more
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gentle approach is perhaps not appropriate for our emergency but it depends what your aim is MH so good or
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what what should they be doing con proving I think that uh the headline writers are they a lot of PE
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you know there's a lot of headlines that are unhelpful for example even in the Washington Post and certainly in the New
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York Times uh also the placement of important stories about Trump's corruption uh often the New York Times
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will put it on page you know 8 13 I think that if we want to prioritize our de saving our democracy we have to have
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a different kind of placement of uh these big stories um also to show the American public that people are being
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held accountable when January six uh you know insurgents are sentenced uh when the doj is doing things to restore faith
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in institutions because bashing the Press is a popular habit but it's a symptom of also of this um success of
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the right of uh making people lose faith in all institutions right absolutely um
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they uh I think one of the issues is Trump and his cronies especially T Bannon flood the Zone with crazy all the
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time and so you get exhausted including January 6 and so you're like G I'm tired
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of listening to it kind of thing anyway it's a really important book there's a lot of really important books out these
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days in this area Ruth Ben Gad uh her subst is called lucid and her book is strong men musolini to the present light
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Little Light reading for you Ruth thank you so much thank you I enjoyed the conversation