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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser. Today we've
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got a special bonus episode and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing.
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It's about the most addictive, delightful, surprise cultural phenomena of the decade, heated rivalry. I'm
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joined today by the show's creator, Jacob Tierney, and executive producer Brendan Brady. Uh, welcome you two. You
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guys are in mood already. I already >> Thanks, Cara. >> We've been beset by some tech issues,
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but nonetheless, the gays will prevail. Um, the success of the show is about so many things. Queer joy, uh, uh, sex,
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inclusion. It's amazing business story, and that's really what I wanted to talk
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about. Um, but first for the fans, are we getting a standalone episode before season 2?
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>> Um, I love saying now this is Brendan. So, um, uh, I would say that like much
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like the best parts of this show, just enjoy the year. >> Enjoy the year. Is that on your t-shirt?
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>> Oh, no. Soon. Trademark. Trademark. We trademarked it. >> Yeah. Okay. Because that means no.
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That's a no. >> That's We'll see here. This is Jacob speaking now. Uh, that's a here's the
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here's the truth and that nobody actually wants to hear is that we just don't know yet. We are, you know, we we
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actually only finished this show basically a week before episode 6 aired and so this has been a a massive uh
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surprise and endeavor and endeavor and we didn't really have a moment to catch
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our breaths before answering questions like this. So the truth is we're getting
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a plan in place. We will have more information for folks soon. Uh we understand that there's an appetite for
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a lot of this and we're just trying to figure out what we can physically accomplish in in in the next year
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>> in the next year. So one thing this show has been a giant PR boost to the entire
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your entire country. Here's Prime Minister Mark Carney at a recent media event. You had to speaking of Feel the
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Year, but go ahead. >> The world knows that Shane and Ilia are rising hockey stars who fall for each
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other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known.
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But they're also two young men who are terrified of being their fullest self.
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And we live in an increasingly dangerous, divided, and intolerant world. A fundamental Canadian value is
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that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love. So uh the narrative has
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become that it was a little show out of Canada obviously made in Canada because American disturbers were afraid of the
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sex content. Why don't you start Jacob the reaction first of all and the kind
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of what you think is happening here from I mean I'm sure you've answered this
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question but he sort of articulates it rather well is that people are are upset and divided and this brings a respit but
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I think it's more than that in my in my opinion but why don't you start Jacob
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then you Brendan >> I mean I think that there's I I think that what the show did
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in an in a kind of an unpreachy un trying to teach you a lesson way is just present queer joy. And I think that
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that's its soft power. You know, that's the thing that I think people are
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surprised by and and that that is hit people, at least from what what I'm getting. And I think that while there
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are queer stories out there, I don't think there's a lot of joy. And I don't
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think that the the the the kind of profound joy that you only find in romance really that kind of
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heartfilling, fantasy fulfilling, desireful things that that you get to see don't happen to
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queer people in media. And I think that that is the kind of whoosh of it all, >> especially men. There's a lot of lesbian
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content out there. I can tell you the L word. >> I think especially men. And I and I
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think that um yeah, we just don't to have a story that chooses to not and you
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know there are obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma and and I get that and we I think we all
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know that but I think that this this show's desire to not focus on that to focus on other parts of the queer
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experience as fantasy and I fully admit it's a romance. It's from a romance
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romance. um that that I think that that's the partly the reaction to it. Um there's a lot I don't pretend I can
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explain, but I do that it is that >> that is kind of that's the big difference.
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>> Yeah, it's different experience for gay people versus straight people, I think.
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And because I was always waiting for the hit. >> Yeah. I think we all are. And I think
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especially because they have sex so early and we are trained that if we have sex, we will be punished. So if we can
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not have sex, we might be able to be happy. But we can't do both. You don't
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get to have a sex life and be happy. If you want to have a sex life, get ready to die. And if you want to be happy, get
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ready to not have sex. >> I I think like the other part of this uh which Jacob has talked about a lot and
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it was kind of how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which
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is this is a story written by women and it's consumed primarily by women and we
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don't take female uh desire and stories seriously in media a lot of the times.
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Um, I think a show uh like this that came out of nowhere is kind of we were when we were pitching it, we were really
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crossing our fingers hoping that we were right. We were like there is a built-in
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audience there. The these books are consumed. So there's so many readers of all types of romance novels. They're
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there and they are yearning for uh for these stories to be told. So, I think that was the other like secret sauce in
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this is just like this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously and they got to see it
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taken seriously and they loved it. >> We'll talk about that because romance I
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always say everyone's like why it's so popular. I'm like it's a romance novel.
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It's from romance novels are pop. It's one of those genres that people don't
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realize how big it is, how big >> and genre it's been around since the
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dawn of time. Like it's as old as a detective story, you know? It's as old
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as all of like romance is there would have been a time when when Jane Austin would have been considered romance. I
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mean that's these are and it's dismissed. >> I think to Brendan's point, it's
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dismissed despite the fact that it it the romance genre carries the publishing industry in terms of fiction.
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>> Um and I think it's dismissed because um of the misogyny that we all endlessly
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live with because it's something that appeals to women, is often written by women and consumed by women. And so why
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would any I've said this before I was like if this show was about a boy with a
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gun somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago you know >> well a hockey player with a gun
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>> anyway talk about this but getting it made like we talked on this success on
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on on what it symbolizes the difference between Canada and the US though even how these productions are funded um let
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me talk about this idea of was made in Canada because American distributors and let me play very quickly a part Mark
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Carney's speech about that and how it was funded >> on behalf of Canada's new government.
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Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding
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that helped you share this story with the world. I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here
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now. So, uh, yeah, I made I green lit this thing. I stood up to the Americans. >> Oh, that's amazing.
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>> That was an amazing speech. >> Yeah. So I I think that um like you know
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this speech that he gave was at an event uh called prime time which is hosted by
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the producers uh Canadian producer of media association like the Canadian version of the PGA and the point of this
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was to raise awareness of what's going on in our industry because uh the entertainment landscape is under attack
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right now. We've been trying to update our systems. Um, and because of Koosma,
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because of uh the US's um, you know, wanting to come in and tell us how to run our country and how our cultural
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sector needs to be dictated. There's a lot of concern about whether or not we're going to have a system in place
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that has cultural sovereignty for Canada. And so for us, what was so amazing about this experience and
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getting to see Mark Carney there is our show was made in the Canadian system and
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it is very different from the US. We >> Well, explain it. Explain it for people
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who don't understand. >> So basically the Canadian uh film and TV system has subsidies and equity and
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grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government. So we, you know, when you go to a broadcaster like we did
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with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that um commissioned the show, uh they go and say, "Okay,
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great. Here is a license fee." Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30% of the budget. Then we have a tax
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credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30% of the budget. And then it's always that last
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little piece that you're looking for, right? So the benefit to us in uh Canada
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as producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget
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out of our uh broadcasters but we as the producers own all the underlying IP. >> So that is a big
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>> you don't sell it to a studio in the system >> but the the you know the limitations on
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that are you have to go then raise money. So, how we did this with our show is we ended up talking to a couple of uh
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studios, some of them American, some of them Canadian, and ultimately it wasn't
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the right fit from a creative perspective. And, you know, we've we understand where everybody was coming
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from. It is a this was, you know, on paper didn't seem like a an amazing massive hit right out the gate. Um, and
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so luckily when we were going through this process, uh, Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media, Bell Media
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is like if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country. They own everything from telecommunications to
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internet to sports >> and they have divisions like Craig, which is their only streaming platform. They have
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others, right? Yes, it's their only streaming platform. >> So, it's like a Disney Hulu or whatever.
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>> Exactly. But they're also it's like and and they have CTV which is their ABC. So
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they have a terrestrial they have a terrestrial channel and they have streaming.
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>> They have cable channels, they have a streaming platform. Um and they had just
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acquired a distribution company called Sphere Abacus uh out of the UK. And so we were looking for that last 30% of the
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budget and um they came in for 20 more% on a distribution advance. So the last 10% was Jacob and I putting our producer
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fees and we put in almost all of our producer fees less what we had to keep back because you still have to pay for
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taxes. So it was a big gamble for us but ultimately I can I >> So what you would have earned for this
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the fees that are standard right when you when you what was the total budget here?
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>> So we were just under 3 million Canadian an episode. >> Amazing. That's pretty low. Which is
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what >> I don't know if you know what a big deal this is, but Brendan is telling the
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truth. >> Yeah, we've been >> Cara Swisser gets >> She gets the truth. This is exclusive.
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>> So, we were uh we were just under three uh per episode >> per episode Canadian,
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>> right? Because it looks great, by the way. It didn't look on the cheap or
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anything else cuz >> that's also that speaks to Jacob and his amazing abilities. He's directed over a
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100 episodes of television. So he knows what he's doing and also speaks to a way
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in which we like to work uh which we feel really is is different than the US system or typical
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>> is an enormously low amount of for people who don't know it's it's very low
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for a reg television shows I mean the salary >> it's low for a sitcom it's deeply low
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for a 1-hour drama. Yeah. >> Deeply low for most those are the salaries of certain people depending.
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So, um, talk, you know, obviously these were not well-known people, but still it's still an expensive thing. I think
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most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make, right? >> It can, it depends. It's like between
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six to four to$10 million an episode US is typical. Uh, depending on what your level is, but yeah, I mean, costs have
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really skyrocketed over the last decade. >> Is it less expensive to make this in
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Canada from a production perspective? >> No, we have an efficient model. Um, and
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I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being
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thrown around. So, we by necessity have to spend less. Um, but we also like did something here where we shot all six
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episodes in 36 days. Jacob shot shot Jacob directed all six of them. We block shot them like one giant movie. Um, we
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talk about this when studios, especially US studios, come and say, "How do you
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guys do this?" And we go, "It's crazy." You have all of your episodes written
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before you go into prep. And that's typically when we lose people and they don't understand,
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>> right? Because they write it through. They although that's changing in the US
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actually. >> It's crazy to do it the other way. It's especially when you're not doing 22
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episodes anymore. Like back in the old model when you're doing this volume of
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episodes where it's not possible to have them all ready. >> Well, you have writers on staff.
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>> Well, you have to just be writing all the time. But if you're doing if the new
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model is 8 to 10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.
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So, you start shooting. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Yeah, we start shooting and then we do
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10-hour shoot days primarily. Like, I'm not going to say it's not every day, but
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we try to keep our hours low. And there's a couple of reasons for this. A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours
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with crews, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime. Uh, but we also just feel that
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like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer. She was the assistant costume designer on this show. She's 5
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months pregnant. Uh the departments that Thank you. The departments that get hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with
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these precalls a lot of the time. Who are those departments run by? Primarily women. And so we also just feel that
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like there in our business we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15 16 hour days which is where
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the costs balloon. >> Right. Right. What are you a lesbian? What's happening here? Anyway, so but
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but Jacob talk about your production style. you you besides being you know truncated like making it tight you keep
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it keep it tight kind of thing you call it anti-fascist explain what you mean by
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that >> well I mean I guess what I what I mean about that is there's a desire often for
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perfection that is I think not only unachievable but also uh insane and cruel to be even attempting. There's no
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reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the
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performance of the actor. I I'm an actor. I've been doing this since I was
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four years old. The problem is the scene. It's not the actor. You haven't
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written it properly. If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue.
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And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining. And so that's
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kind of >> I just did I just did a it was all day. I was like, why? I kept saying why is it
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all day? >> To do nine different sizes on a closeup is insane. All of this stuff is crazy.
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It's just like it doesn't add to anything except exhaustion and to overworking people. I would and what I
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like to say is I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their
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performance. And I've used the a scene as an example like on the day when we
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were shooting. There's a scene in the sixth episode in the cottage after the
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boys have been caught by Shane's dad where Hudson and Connor have a scene together and they essentially he decides
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that he's going to go talk to his parents. Ilia's going to come with him.
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And when we were shooting it, I thought I I wasn't convinced that I was going to
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use what Hudson was doing in that scene. I thought it might be too much. He was reacting. He had a big reaction which is
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interesting for Hudson because he's a very internal actor especially when he's
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playing Shane and I didn't say anything and I just kind of watched it and I was
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like this is interesting. I think I can cut around this. I think I can figure out how to get what I want out of this
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scene. And then when I got to the editing room and my editor put the scene together, she loved what he had done.
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And I looked at it again with new eyes and I was like, "Oh, I actually love
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this too." And I'm so glad I didn't insist on some idea that I had in my
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head because what he brought to the table was more interesting and it was surprising and it was full of life and
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it wasn't part of some insane jigsaw plan that I had in my head that needs to
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fit together or everything falls apart. >> And I >> Well, it's a different way of creating,
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right? >> It is a different way of creating, but also I I do believe fundamentally that
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film and TV is an ensemble process. It is. Otherwise, go write a book, you know, go paint a picture. There's lots
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of ways to be in total control, but as soon as you invite other talents in, as soon as you invite, you're in a medium
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in which that is a part of how it's going to have to happen to ask these brilliant people to work with you and
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then not listen to them or not use their skill. >> Although that's sort of the director
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genre, right? Like the director gets to run everything gets to run. >> And I think it's a crazy system, you
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know, like I want to work with talented people and I want to what are they doing
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here if I'm not going to listen to them? if I'm not going to incorporate their
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ideas, if I'm not going to incorporate what makes them so talented, why I wanted to work with them in the first
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place. And so, you know, anti-fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of it's a rejection of an idea that
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everything has to come from one person and like what you know, the the brilliant idea is very top.
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>> Yeah, I've had I've had very little experience, but I've been on several
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sets. I mean, the idea of somebody taking your cell phone from you when you get to work because they want you
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focused on their art is so pardon, my friend. So [ __ ] male and boring and stupid to me. Why does the girl can't he
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can't text his wife about dinner because your genius extends that? I It's just
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exhausting. It's >> Yeah. Yeah. It's also long. It's long. >> It's torture.
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>> I I kept saying to people, I got things to do. This is a job. So when you talk
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about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all? Because I own all my intellectual
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property just so you know and I think it's important. Explain why it is for you especially in this space because
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that's something that's been an anathema to the industry. Well, I'll tell you
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what it means is like Jacob and I uh you know worked on a show called Letter Kenny and Shy and the producers of that
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show made it in Canada as well and they had a robust merchandise business and when we were in post-prouction we
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decided because we have we you know retained all the intellectual property behind the series that we wanted to take
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advantage of that and make a line of merchandise which we're doing which is now incredibly uh like it's It's become
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this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about. But it also
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means that ultimately like when we we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes
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really well, we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this. And that
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is the difference. And I think like what you know people always ask about or I guess you look at the Canadian system
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versus the American system. the Canadian system. You as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really
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truly Canadian show, part of the G like the offering is the broadcasters can't
00:19:46
own the IP. The producers get to and some people will look at that, you know, the but the flip side in the US is
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you're making way more money upfront. I don't think that either is right and the
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other is wrong. I just think that our system uh is something to protect because what's happening in the US you
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can kind of look to and say I mean is this fully working right now like can we really argue that this system is better
00:20:14
than ours? No. But I can say that for a hundred years this business was run on the idea that creators and the people
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who made it got to own and benefit from what they did did for their entire lives. And I think that that's something
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worth fighting for. >> I I think so completely. At some point, I wasn't gonna make something for
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someone and I said, "You just have to give me IP." And they said, "Why do you
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have to have it?" I said, "None of your business." Cuz I want it.
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>> Yeah. >> Cuz it's mine. It's not yours. >> It's like the old musician, right? It
00:20:45
was like own your own publishing, right? Because why would you let somebody else
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administer your work and take all the profit from it? >> That's correct.
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>> And like we're going to we have opportunities and we will work in this
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system that doesn't have that and it'll be fine as well. But I just think that
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like when we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded. You know, the economy
00:21:05
of scale on on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make episode
00:21:11
enough episodes. We don't contain them into certain locations. But also, it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit
00:21:18
or kind of a middling hit, you seem to win no matter what at that level. So I think that there is something to look at
00:21:25
as we move forward in these systems of like giving people back end again like these these old ideas should be new
00:21:32
>> right which they which they have changed. So we're going to take a quick
00:21:35
break when we come back we'll have a question from a big fan. We're back with
00:21:39
Rob's executive producer Jacob Dier and Brendan Brady uh who are behind the the
00:21:45
people behind this huge hit heated rivalry. I'm friends with Eileen Chaen, the executive producer of the L- Word,
00:21:50
Handmaid's Tale, and many other shows. And of course, the groundbreaking sort
00:21:54
of gay show in the United States was this one, uh, which was many moons ago. She had a question we're going to play
00:22:00
for you right now, Jacob. I love your show. Absolutely love it. Congratulations. Here's my question. Our
00:22:07
mutual friend, colleague, agent, ally, Matt Felker, shared with me the outlandish and stupidly familiar story
00:22:14
of getting heated rivalry on the air. all the rejections that preceded your fabulous and well-deserved massive
00:22:21
success. So, do you feel vindicated, pissed, annoyed, smuggly satisfied, grateful, just enjoying the process,
00:22:30
more determined than ever to tell sexy queer human stories, some other emotion that I didn't describe or perhaps
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haven't yet even experienced? >> That's a um that's a great question. I
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>> She's great. For people that don't know, Lord really >> brilliant show,
00:22:46
>> groundbreaking at the time. Um, was shocking and showed people happy. >> Yes, it did. It showed a lot of
00:22:54
complexity. I mean, yeah, it was a Yeah, that's a real Thank you, um, for the
00:22:59
question and thank you for being a fan of the show. That's so cool. And I'm
00:23:03
sorry that Matt Felker is both of our agents. Um, it's a joke. I love Matt Felker, but um you know uh uh I can't
00:23:10
pretend there isn't a part of me that's slightly smug. I mean, you know,
00:23:15
a show like this we're experiencing here with this show is so like beyond the
00:23:20
beyond in the land of you can have a successful show as I did with Letter Kenny previously and it does not explode
00:23:27
in this way and this this level of attention. Um, I, you know, I I try to not I I'm in therapy and I try to not be
00:23:36
I try to not be toxic exteriorly. And I think that the lesson that I want to take away from this experience is to
00:23:42
continue to trust myself creatively because that is the thing that paid off is that I felt very strongly and I
00:23:49
luckily had enough backing and support Brendan primarily obviously and then my my creative crave family all these
00:23:56
executives there and and I did trust something inside me that was like I'm not doing that. I'm not doing what these
00:24:02
folks want me to do. And I just to be very clear it wasn't just Americans it
00:24:05
was other Canadians too. It was a lot of people like this. They all like the lean-in like, "Oh, you have a gay hockey
00:24:10
show with sex." And they were like, "That's not what we meant. Too much sex,
00:24:13
too much hockey, too little hockey, too little sex." Whatever it was, it was all
00:24:17
like, "Why is it like this? Can it be different?" And I really was like, "I
00:24:21
don't think it should be. I think it should be what it >> What was the craziest thing?" Um, my
00:24:25
ex-wife started Planet Out and then and they merged with Gay.com and one of the venture capitalists said, "Couldn't they
00:24:32
just be hip people versus gay people?" I mean, listen. And she said she said I
00:24:36
she was like what? Like >> I think the thing that didn't the thing that was the most you don't get this
00:24:42
note that we got I think was the idea of needing a female entry point into the show because women wouldn't watch this
00:24:48
show if there wasn't a woman protagonist. And I was like you know women read these books women write these
00:24:54
book gay men don't even know these books exist. Like these are for women. And so
00:24:59
the miss that gap in understanding u and I do think there's a thing with TV you know a lot of executives they get it
00:25:07
feels like they get paid by the note and so if they are not coming in with a big
00:25:10
thought what are they even doing in the room the most of the best executives that I know are the people that actually
00:25:15
speak the least and that kind of trusting creators and then when they do give a note uh I take it because this is
00:25:21
somebody that is rowing in the same direction as me. This is somebody trying to make the same show as me. So in
00:25:27
general they call it drive by editing. >> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so I I
00:25:31
think that there was such a misunderstanding of who the what the audience wanted out of this and what I
00:25:37
chose to trust was my gut and the IP and the audience that was already enjoying it. And I was like why would you change
00:25:45
this when it's already being consumed and obsessed over to this degree? Why do
00:25:49
you think you know more? >> What about you Brendon? Oh, um I've also listen there the best thing that
00:25:56
happened was we we are friends with a couple of folks who ended up passing because their their bosses wouldn't get
00:26:03
on board and getting them letting them come to us and be like I told my boss look what you missed out that is the fun
00:26:10
part of the like kind of smuggness I think you know but to be honest um this has been absolutely nuts Cara like we're
00:26:19
this has been so crazy it's so much bigger than we ever thought. I think the
00:26:24
>> now everybody's your friend, right? >> Yeah. But also I just feel that I'm
00:26:28
going to sound a little polyianish here, but I mean it. We are trying to also stay grounded by being of service to
00:26:36
people. Part of the reason why we were at the CMPA thing with uh Mark Carney was to kind of raise awareness for our
00:26:44
industry and we're just trying to figure out ways to to stay grounded with the
00:26:49
people and the things that make uh you know we've got this incredible platform.
00:26:52
We want to use it to to actually promote positive issues. Um and we're we're
00:26:58
hoping that that's what we can kind of do. And that's been the most fun thing
00:27:02
that we've gotten to to experience right now is like hearing from people how
00:27:07
their lives are being changed and how we are now able to actually affect a modicum of change. Even if it's just
00:27:13
pushing everything in the right direction, we're not going to change the entire universe here.
00:27:18
>> No, of course not. But but the specificity of the things we are able to
00:27:21
change has been really positive and lovely. So in that genre, I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan
00:27:27
last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process because a lot of it part of it are people breaking
00:27:32
free, right? Like myself many years ago or I have a lot of people coming to me. I'm like it's great out here. Like you
00:27:38
don't need all that stuff. But let's talk let's hear what he had to say. And
00:27:41
this is a very successful actor and producer. >> Sorry. You said Matt Damon. Matt Damon.
00:27:45
Oh, okay. Interesting. >> He's talking about the the business. >> I've heard of him. I think I've heard of
00:27:49
him. You've heard of him. Like for instance, Netflix um you know standard way to make an action movie that we
00:27:57
learned was you know you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third
00:28:02
and you know you kind of ramp up and the big one with all the explosions and you
00:28:06
spend most of your money on that one in the third act that's your kind of finale. Um and now they're, you know,
00:28:11
they're like can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody, you
00:28:15
know, we want people to stay >> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know it wouldn't be terrible if you
00:28:21
reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching. You
00:28:27
know what I mean? >> So talk about that. He would, by the way, would make an excellent gay hockey
00:28:31
player. But um >> too old an old gay hockey >> a retired one. Sure. >> Listen, I should be clear. I love Matt
00:28:39
Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon. >> So what talk about that? What's
00:28:42
happening now in in the creation? Do you either of you feel pressure? >> We have yet to really experience that if
00:28:49
I'm being perfectly honest, Crave was not like that. Um, and I will say that
00:28:54
part of what the reaction to the show that has been so kind of interesting to me is people saying like this is a show
00:29:01
you have to pay attention to. If you're on your phone, you're not going to get
00:29:03
it because it's so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people. It is dialogue as
00:29:09
avoidance and obiscation. And the story line is actually really simple. They're
00:29:14
in love. they can't admit it. So like it's actually not a super complicated
00:29:17
plot in that way, but so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding
00:29:21
each other, the ways in which they cannot speak. That's why the sex is so important because that's when they're
00:29:27
being honest. And so I think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification.
00:29:33
That being said, you know, I I don't I wouldn't want to make too much of a big
00:29:37
deal about this. Like everybody wants an opening that captures you. Like that's
00:29:40
not new. like that that that's been a note since the dawn of time with stories
00:29:44
like let me in what's the first scene why are you capturing my attention I don't think that's insane and I think
00:29:51
that like I think that that's you know I think that this thing you can see it I
00:29:55
think in a lot of streamers you know where you're like oh boy you've just
00:29:58
explained a thing to me that I already know I get I get that that can be frustrating but I would also add I am on
00:30:04
my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me this for the third time and I'm like yeah you're not wrong
00:30:10
I did drip Right. >> But and I think that there can be room for both. You know, entertainment and
00:30:15
popcorny fun stuff that like I kind of don't care. And then every once in a while something comes along and you need
00:30:20
to pay attention and that's okay too. And then and then it's up to you to
00:30:23
choose. Do you is that too much for you? That's okay. Move it along. >> Yeah. I actually didn't look at my I I
00:30:28
have a rule like how many how many text looks isn't in a movie? How good is it
00:30:32
if I don't pick it up at all? >> We have shows in my household with my
00:30:36
boyfriend that we put on to be on our phones with. We're aware of this and we
00:30:40
think of them as like visual podcast. The >> Grammys Grammys was a good one. When you have
00:30:45
the the Netflix acquisition of Warner, does that affect it? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we don't I think
00:30:53
we don't, you know, we have no uh actual information on that. I would say um
00:30:58
again, we just want more competition in the marketplace and I think that this this
00:31:05
is part in Canada in everywhere everywhere really. But I think, you know, it's kind of to the point I was
00:31:12
making about like, is this system in the US working really well right now? I don't know. Is that good? Is this going
00:31:18
to be good for creators? Um, it's really hard to tell at this point, but I would
00:31:23
say like I don't love that there's less places to go cuz in Canada what we have
00:31:28
like the reason why we ended up on HBO uh around the world is because Crave and uh Bell Media have the exclusive rights
00:31:38
to all of HBO's uh catalog in Canada. >> Um and so if we don't have HBO, you have
00:31:46
Crave and that has HBO on it. And so like if we don't have that on Crave, does that
00:31:54
affect Crave? What happens to them? That's a big part of why people go there. I mean, now in now in heated
00:32:00
rivalry, obviously, but um but yeah, like I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening.
00:32:08
And I for one would love to see uh just more competition because I think it's
00:32:13
way better when we have more. But what I would say too, I just that because we're
00:32:17
an acquisition, you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved in the show. I think they like they they say
00:32:23
nice things about it, which is great. Exactly. So, we're not like I think that
00:32:27
that that part is not really going to change uh at least in the foreseeable future.
00:32:32
>> Mhm. So, but now now that the show's blown up, they're not suddenly have an
00:32:36
opinion about >> No, they're still getting it for the same price. I think it's worked out
00:32:39
great for them. It's worked out really well for them. Like, this is a very successful acquisition. And I mean it's
00:32:44
clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the you know yeah I I
00:32:48
think that this is just like keep doing it guys. That's the that's at least what
00:32:51
Casey has explicitly quite said to us is like keep going >> but it can go elsewhere right around the
00:32:57
world. >> Correct. >> So it's been sold territory by terri or chunk of territory by territory in
00:33:03
general p picked up by HBO outlets Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand. a couple of other exceptions to
00:33:09
that rule, but basically what they do is they buy it for and then they have an option on the second season and
00:33:15
potentially third season. So they get it's like a kind of a right of first refusal. So with with an increase they
00:33:20
get it. So it's not really even to be renegotiated. It's just kind of like you
00:33:24
either want this or you don't. There's no input into the content. >> Right. Right. Um I have a couple more
00:33:29
quick question quick questions. One is about obviously everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be
00:33:34
in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening and including with competition with AI and stuff. Do you do
00:33:40
you is there a big fear from you all about AI because this is the some of the big hits this year have been the most
00:33:46
nonI type of content like sinners weapons yours you know I think that yeah >> I want each of you to talk about
00:33:54
>> has more thoughts on this than I do. >> Okay. Uh yeah, I think that listen there
00:33:59
is going to be a place for AI in how we work in this business. I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities
00:34:07
but I think it is in that tool for creators not as the creative engine behind >> costumeuming.
00:34:15
>> I think like even scheduling, budgeting and prepping like those kinds of things
00:34:20
where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data. So much of our jobs are data driven like just
00:34:26
trying to get information and I do think exactly I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will
00:34:34
see and where I would love for people to focus their attention because we were experiencing this and I'm sure Cara you
00:34:40
can you have had this with your team those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone
00:34:49
and they don't get it that is hard to replicate that is hard to do with AI in
00:34:55
a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, "Okay, cool. We have
00:34:59
now communicated together and we are on the aligned and you're now going to >> speaking of friction, your whole show is
00:35:05
about friction." >> Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But yeah, I think that I think it's hard. I think we
00:35:10
underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience. >> Yep. I would agree. That's that's
00:35:16
exactly how I say it. I I talk about it. I the the words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless,
00:35:22
convenient. You know, they're always using those words. I'm like, "No,
00:35:25
friction's critical for you being here." >> Yeah. What about you, Jacob? Do you
00:35:30
think about it all? >> Uh, it confuses me. Uh, no. Is the answer. Like, I don't think like I again
00:35:37
like the way that the way that Brendon speaks about it is like that makes sense to him. I'm like, I can imagine it
00:35:41
helping me with some stuff, but like it's not going to write for me. Like I don't I don't want that either. I love
00:35:47
what I do. I don't want to I don't want someone I don't need that kind of help
00:35:52
is the way I would say. Yeah. >> So, before we go, what would you uh want to do if you could do anything? Like you
00:35:58
guys are now the world is your oyster kind of thing. Like you can do obviously you're going to do another season of
00:36:02
this, maybe two, three, whatever. Um because there's lots of books for people
00:36:07
don't realize. Um what what would you want to make? Would you direct say a pointed point break remake with your
00:36:14
heated survival stars? another one before they finally [ __ ] the game. >> Where they finally [ __ ]
00:36:23
that I'm very open to a father son story with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves.
00:36:28
However, I would >> um you know >> they do look alike. >> They do. They really do. And Keanu is
00:36:33
Canadian. He can come home. We can do a fun thing together. Um, you know, we are being we I'm certainly
00:36:40
being offered a lot of things and uh uh and uh yeah, I'm very excited about what's next. And I
00:36:46
>> Is there anything you're like, God, >> I can't really say, but I can tell you
00:36:50
that once I can talk about >> a couple of things. They are one of which in particular is a dream uh come
00:36:59
true. Uh so yeah, I I'm I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but
00:37:03
I I can't at this point. We've got also Yeah. And we also we have a whole
00:37:08
productions company that we're running with a like a lot in development. So,
00:37:13
it's about getting these projects. The projects that, you know, from a producer
00:37:17
standpoint, what we really want to get made um are we have a number of shows. The one that is about to go out is
00:37:24
called The King is Dead. And I'm going to plug it right here because it's from
00:37:27
an amazing amazing indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine. Crave is already signed on for development. We're
00:37:35
looking for that other partner because it's basically a uh uh it's a com action
00:37:42
adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I know. Bear with us. >> Hello, Outlander.
00:37:48
>> Yeah, 100%. But it's a comedy about a group of indigenous folks uh tired of
00:37:53
all these white people coming to North America. They take a boat, traverse back to England, uh, in an attempt to kill
00:38:03
King George III. >> Oh my god. History. >> It's like Monty Python energy. It's very
00:38:09
funny and we're very excited about that show. >> Yeah. So, that's in development with
00:38:14
Crave right now and we're very excited about that one. >> All right. Well, everybody loves you.
00:38:18
All the boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like, but you guys
00:38:22
deserve equal amounts of attention. We think what you make is amazing. and and in this time in the United States, it
00:38:29
was just what was needed for. So, get that episode out. Get that special episode.
00:38:35
>> We will. We will do our best. And thank you for having us on. We really
00:38:38
appreciate it. Thank you, Cara. >> Thank you, Jacob. And thank you, uh, Brendan. Um, thanks to the audience for
00:38:43
listening to our special bonus episode of Pivot. You'll be back in our fe will
00:38:47
be back in our feeds on Tuesday, and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, and
00:38:54
Taylor Griffin. Brandon McFarland engineered this episode. Jim Mle edited the video. Nishad Kerwa is Vox Media's
00:39:01
executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot
00:39:07
from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod.
00:39:13
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And Scott, eat your heart out.
00:39:18
I got the heat of rivalry, guys.