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get excited Scott because we're doing things a little differently today it's a special show with pivot listeners
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calling in and asking us their questions on all sorts of topics we're going to meet the people Scott the people I don't
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like surprises at 49 it could slip and break a hip when you do this to me I think you're going to love it our first
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listener call ever so this is a very exciting thing Sean welcome well hi Karen Scott thanks for having me on um I'll try to set the bar as low as
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possible subsequent listeners who are asking questions so don't have a t act to follow um so I'm a long time listener and I'm an attorney and uh I I worked in
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private practice as a litigator for a while and the past few years I've worked in the public sector um I've got a
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question about your favorite can I ask you a number of questions are do do you like the penis jokes no not that one
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don't uh I appreciate Scott's humor but I feel like now being on the podcast I'll be unemployed for the foreseeable future that's what we like to do here we like to ruin careers thank you Sean let's listen to
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your question let's listen to your question so it's about it's about Elon and it's something of a legal question
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but it's way outside of my area who who is it who we've never heard of him yeah you don't talk about him on this show um but it's outside of my area of second biggest complaint by the way we talk too
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much about Elon uh so here's my question uh in buying the platform elon's turned
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himself into to the main character on Twitter uh and he's repeatedly posted controversial tweets uh in multiple
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instances elon's tweets have had a negative impact on the financial interests of X not to mention Tesla um
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so what I want to know you know if you guys have any insight into this particularly you Scott since you've served on boards over the years is there
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some reason legal practical or otherwise that no shareholder has pursued legal action against Elon asserting that his tweets uh have constituted a breach of his fiduciary duties and I'm putting
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that uh unsuccessful 420 lawsuit from a few years back in a separate bucket because it involved alleged fraudulent misrepresentations about the company itself whereas some of his other tweets
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are just lightning rods for controversy controversy that caus the stock price to
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dip um so I'm wondering if you guys have any insight on that well can before Scott starts there are some holder
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lawsuits around how he be and and his behavior is noted in them in several of them um happening at various times he's
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won quite a few of them um uh so that including that one with with the shareholders but there are a number of shareholder um actions happening but go ahead uh Scott why don't you talk about
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being on a board because I haven't been well you have to distinguish between a private and a public company a public
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company is fertile hunting ground per plainist attorneys who when they see anything resembling
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um behavior that they think is bad for shareholders they can initiate a class action suit and typically in a board
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meeting you get a list of all the legal actions and they're they're numerous employees you know all sorts of stuff
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and planus attorneys while they play a really important role as sort of a check on Corporate America there are quite a
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few of them who the ecosystem is file a suit and many companies will just settle
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and there's incentive to file a lot of suits against companies that don't see you know the distraction and the
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potential downside as worth it and so they'll just settle he's he's probably when you're talking about X now that
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it's a private company with what is a relatively finite number of shareholders it's unlikely they filed
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suit because they're all his buddies and as far as I can tell the only reason they initially invested was hope that
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they would Curry favor with him and have the opportunity to invest in the followon round SpaceX or take be one of
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the book Runners you know be the you know Sequoia I can't imagine consciously made a rational decision in isolation to put whatever it was a couple hundred million dollars into X but they think
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this is an ecosystem we want to be involved in all of his other Ventures we want to have an opportunity to
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participate it's a vig it's essentially a vig to hang with in the mus table what's unusual though is it relates to what I have never seen
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I don't think anyone's seen a governance earlier this week he essentially took to
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Twitter to demand that he would get 25% voting control and I think he knew that that would be impossible for a post-public company because he would be retroactively trying to create a new
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class of sh stock that add super majority voting control I think he knew that wasn't possible so the only way to
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get there would be to increase his stake and award him options that would get him to that 25% Mark he has options that if
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he exercises is now taken from 13 to 17% I have never seen a CEO I've been on boards where CEOs stamp their feet and
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threaten to leave over their compensation I've never seen a CEO take to Twitter and threaten the company
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publicly or threaten the board unless he gets another $70 billion in compensation
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but he is effectively a walking plainist attorney dream but he's created so much
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shareholder value and I and Sean after care response I'd love to get your thoughts here my my sense is he sees the
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legal expenses as a as a uh uh an expense of doing business the way he does business he invites them he knows they're going to come but the dollars are so enormous here that he'd rather be
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aggressive raise his profile even at the risk of shareholder lawsuits care what do you think yeah you know I think a lot
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of CEOs do this privately right sort of hold up a board or threaten and things like that and so he's just doing it
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publicly because he's that guy because he gets to be that kind of but he um what's interesting is Scott said a
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lot of tech companies have these dual uh class shareholders and he he didn't do it at the time Tesla was created and
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probably wishes he had but it's not they can't do it now they can't do it now now what's interesting about this is he
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essentially saying I will withhold my my leadership right from you unless um unless you do this right that's what he's saying I will not help you in the future I won't help it with AI even
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though he's touted the company as an AI company and a robotics company which it has very advanced robotics that has very
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Advanced AI I'm not going to help you make wealth anymore until you Pony up this money now the other problem besides the fact that it can't make a dual class structure which I think would be to his
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liking but it doesn't matter he effectively runs the board the board doesn't is not is not a an independent
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board in any way or doesn't behave like an independent board um he face this is a lawsuit over his compensation package
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actually going on a shareholder um you know uh that that said his compensation package was outsize um and it didn't require him to work full-time um and so
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uh so he so that there's you know he's he's complemented the Twitter board um but it's not a good look it looks like he's sort of blackmailing the board that's what it looks like um although he
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said they like it like it's sort of like a like a an abused spouse in dohol syndrome yeah well I don't think they
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like it I get the impression they don't they don't have a choice with this guy what are your thoughts you're the one finish let me just say one more thing
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they can't do anything until this it will make this lawsuit win if the board doesn't do if they suddenly award him this because that's precisely what the lawsuit is saying so go ahead yeah I
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mean I think um first of all they they moved their corporate uh base from uh they were previously Incorporated in Delaware and they moved to Nevada um and you know when you bring these uh
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shareholder law lawsuits I think that's one consideration and the laws uh where they're Incorporated I think Nevada
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might have an intent requirement for these breach of fiduciary duty lawsuits like as opposed to just careless Behavior you know there might be some some intent requirement and I think you
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know Scott makes a really good point about how the people who are in bed with him at this point um yeah you know uh
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they not only do they know what they were getting into but they they wanted they wanted that they wanted that access so so that that makes sense to me but on
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the his recent tweets Carrie you brought up the fact that uh you know sort of the
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AI aspect of this when I read that story he he wasn't just saying you know I'm not GNA work uh on some of these AI issues I think he was at least implying
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that he was going to do it elsewhere yeah take it elsewhere you know right and does that change does that change
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the calculus a little bit um you know he's not just saying he's not going to do X he's he's saying I'm going to
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essentially perhaps compete with you um to his own other people I don't know if he has a non-compete I don't I have no
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idea but I I assume there is a an issue here because there's IP too right if he takes people if he takes you know other
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people the guy at Google got in trouble for going over to Uber right um there's all kinds of law about this and I think
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that's what's interesting he's essentially blackmailing them and they're the issue is will they do
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anything about it and so far this board has done nothing now that opens them up to liability but from talking to them I
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don't think they feel like they have any power you know I think they feel like they have no and he's just now he's just
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doing it right to their face it's not unlike what Trump does to the GOP it's like you know I'm just going to primary
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you that's what he's saying from a business point of view and so they he puts them in a terrible position and
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they cannot uh like it um and so you know I don't I don't know this guy breaks rules all the time and sometimes it's good and interesting and sometimes it's just
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just he just has decided not to play by any rules that anybody else has um and again just like Trump in the court who
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yells in court at the judge and and makes faces and but he did like yesterday and he's still not in contempt
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um so I don't know I don't know I will see what happens but both Scott and I and I don't know if you think this think
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this board is just a is a is a paper tiger not even a tiger what is it a paper paper mâché whatever yeah I mean I
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think Scott's talked repeatedly about the you know how corporate governance here is uh to say the least lacking um
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so this to say it's even Uncharted water here is an understatement it's not calculus it's it's a it's a different math that's never been seen before because typically boards will air on the
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other side boards are usually full of what I call fips FIP formally important people and sometimes their ego
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absolutely gets the best of them and they won't do what's right for shareholders because they get angry and
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say well this activist I'll I'll show him he's going to show up and threaten me and or the CEO does something that
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pisses them off and they fire the CEO even when maybe they should have just dealt with the ego of the CEO in this
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instance I mean think about how how just crazy this is Elon Musk is the wealthiest person on the planet The
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Source the primary source of that wealth is Tesla so he is now turning to the company that made him the wealthiest person in the world and threatening the board
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publicly on a platform that he bought by selling Tesla shares that unless they pay him another $70 billion he's going to take his ideas
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to another company while he's working at Tesla which there's like eight different
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things here that any other board would fire the CEO for but what you have is his brother you have several people who are so conflicted here VCS one person
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was involved in Solar City this is just it's literally an implosion in governance and the retort would be at the end of the day it's about increasing shareholder value and this guy has done
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it so this guy the the argument would be he has earned the right to play by a different set of rules and but I've
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never seen anything resembling this yeah we've got to go Sean but he's an adult toddler and they're giving him sugar I don't know what else to say and they're going to keep giving him sugar until he
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breaks something which he's done many times anyway Sean thank you so much it was great to chat with you we hope you
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don't lose your job but a great question appreciate all right bye let's move on to our next caller a doctor who reached
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out to us following one of our discussions about weight loss drugs hello Dr David Rooney as in no it's
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Rooney Rooney right David Rony do you love macaroni as in macaroni I do take the Mac off but you'll love me too okay all right okay perfect you're a
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robotic surgeon with a personal finance website I I this is fascinating um can you tell me just briefly about this yeah so um uh that started because I don't
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like to be told I can't do anything and uh I graduated U for United States Naval
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Academy with no financial literacy and then thought I was doing okay and the great financial crisis started and I
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called in to add some money to my account and they told me I couldn't because the funds were closed and then
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they told me I didn't Warr getting a financial advisor uh because I didn't make enough money which didn't make any
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sense to me because I made the most money in my family at the time um so I it created a chip on my shoulder and I
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started learning as much as I could about Finance next thing you know I I had accumulated a lot of knowledge fast forward to the pandemic and I was
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watching people uh lose their jobs and I couldn't understand what was going on and why these things were occurring and
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my brother challenged me to help as many people as I could by just putting the knowledge in my head out there on the
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internet good for you well congratulations macaroni okay um so let me what's your question you're also a doctor so what you want to talk about weight loss drug affordability
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yeah so you know um uh Professor Galloway so uh you mentioned that you know OIC can be a world changer right can be a thing that sort of leads to
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further breakthroughs and behavioral modification and getting people off of things they might be addicted to right
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because that is a sort of benefit that is seemed to uh have occurred that they've seen in observation people stop
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drinking as much gambling buch things of that sort um the thing that we never really consider and we Healthcare gets a
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bag wrap right it's clearly not a good system that is uh designed well as for the times that we're in however the
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thing that always slips on underneath people is the fact that insurance plays a big role and goes unregulated um to
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the degree that they determine who can afford whatever they can afford most people can't afford a sort of like they
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said a $400 emergency and the average car payment is $1,000 but OIC and the other uh gop1 Agonist might be $1,200 all right question what's your question
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that what are we going to do about it what are we going to do about it is that the question so the question is is what what do you how do you envision that uh
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insurance is going to sort of change in the future in order to reflect the vision that you see carrying out uh first off Dr I it always sounds patronizing when I say this but I mean
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it as someone who went to an Napolis and decided not to go there and went to UCL I appreciate your service if you're in
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the top death Sile of income earners in the United States I think you have access to best Healthcare in the world but it's the bottom 90 who are
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subsidizing it and I think that one of the um culprits if you will is the insurance industrial complex which does a very good job of flying below the radar I think Insurance in the United
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States on a lot of levels is literally the one of the biggest economic taxes that the poor pay at and I've talked about this a lot I am not insured because I can afford not to be insured
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it's it's poor and middle- income households that can't be insured now as it relates to glp1 drugs I do think over
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time the benefits are going to be so obvious and also the amount of capital going into the exploration of gop1 drugs is going to be so a massive that it's going to create competitors and bring
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the cost down and I do think the government's going to get involved because here's the problem right now with G1 drugs it's not getting out to
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the rural areas where people are obese and it's really impacting their lives in a negative way I do think the market to
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a certain extent and government hopefully will start to um increase the distribution or disperse glp1 drugs I'm hopeful that it happens bigger broader
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issue we need some form of uh healthc care reform that gets rid of this ridiculously fat and happy expensive middleman that is weaponized government and creates regulatory capture called
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the insurance industrial complex yeah I think one of the things that Scott has talked about a lot and I think it's important is to understand the system is
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good for nobody including doctors my brother's a doctor as you might know and I I don't I never talked to any doctor
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who likes the insurance system and or or how to bill the Billing System um it's so uh it's so they're so in captured by it and spend a lot of time um dealing
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with it that they should be treating patients right or they want to be treating patients and I don't know from your perspective um it's it's complet
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everybody gets screwed but these Insurance middlemen uh in some fashion and it's completely unfair um and for
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these drugs which have have you know they've still got to be tested it's still the the they've been around for a
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long time in for diabetes and everything else but um but I think Scott's right at some point there's going to be so many
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of them the price naturally will come down but that's not always been true with drug prices right it hasn't been um
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but one might imagine at some point in over the- counter version of these things right that it's really that it's
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going to it's going to it's it's going to be so in demand and it will start at the top and then I hate to use the word
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trickle down but this one I think will in that regard but it should immediately the government should immediately be
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doing testing to try to deal with obese um populations to cut prices on on this you know this diabetes EP epidemic it's as Scott calls it the insurance industrial complex there's a diabetes
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industrial complex which keeps people living their health span dies long before their lifespan there's a good
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story in the journal about this and that's where the costs come in and it and they make all the money with these
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very sick people who don't have to be that sick I don't what are your thoughts very briefly um briefly I it hasn't
00:19:02
really come out but if you talk to people who work in healthcare you're going to notice that the economic
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incentives for insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies not to sort of reimburse this or not to add this to
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the formulary is completely there um to the fact that if you look at the starting doses of these medications
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they're no longer available um so you can't even start people on these and people are starting to cut corners
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dietes you're talking people with diabetes you can't start people on on this medication if they if weight loss is the cure if we think about it
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diabetes the first management is sort of sort of diet mod and lifestyle modifications and sort of if you add
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this into like the armamentarium of doing that then that is a a thing that can take place I think we focus on the top 5% because that we're a capitalistic
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society and we leave the rest of folks behind and then we complain about how they can't catch up when in fact like
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our system is doing it the we waited a long time to to change the insulin prices right like I don't have a lot of faith that this is going to change anytime soon and I see a lot of people
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saying how great this is but I used to be poor I was homeless like I remember what it's like for my mother trying to
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get medicine like this sucks it it's like physically painful to watch someone suffer I would agree with you I I this is something I I feel like the especially as the the studies come in
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and they have good results that the government needs to get involved in it's a national Health crisis in in many ways
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and what this this is this is so typical of so many drugs but in this case it's one that could really save costs anyway Dr o we've got to go but it's a really great question I appreciate it you guys
00:20:49
have a blessed day thank you Doctor up next we have someone with a question about AI good morning it's exciting to
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be here my name is Suzanne I'm the de of students at a um very rigorous independent um high school and uh my
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question coming from a very highly resourced school that is much more concerned with getting it right than being right and we're really wrestling with AI right now and so my question is
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do you believe that AI Tools in education enhance or hinder students creative abilities and how can Educators sort of balance
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the use of AI the fact that it's coming it's going to be here with the need to really develop critical thinking skills and creativity great question um I'll start
00:21:43
Scott um you were around for the dawn of the internet age correct or when they were you know remember Apple you saved
00:21:49
Box Tops or whatever to to get computers in schools you remember that era correct yeah so um you can talk as much
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as you want by the way oh okay I'm sorry yeah that's okay um I'm used to just being you know listening no no please
00:22:03
don't please don't please jump in anytime you want so um so I think this is a very similar shift is that a lot of
00:22:10
people at the beginning of that everyone was putting computers in schools without thinking it through properly right and
00:22:15
some of it worked and some of it didn't and some of it was you know people were worried about websites or where kids
00:22:20
went to and protection and were they wasting their time were they playing games it went on and on and then everyone got laptops was that worth it
00:22:28
um I think it's it reminds me quite a bit of that except in this case um people are already computer literate Stu
00:22:34
your students are all highly literate in computers they have grown up with computers and so it reminds me a little
00:22:40
bit of that but you know to say it's a hindrance or an asset it's both it's going to be a hindrance there's all kinds of um problems you're going to show not the you know they write a that
00:22:52
media goes crazy about copying or plagiarism um I think that's been around forever it's just a new way to plagiarize and a probably a better way faster better way but they you'll figure
00:23:02
that part out and I think you'll have your own software and there is software that does that um but but I I do think
00:23:09
one of the things that you should do is embrace it and use it so you as teachers understand it um I think one of the
00:23:15
things is initially and I talked to Randy weard about this um she I was sitting in the we were sitting in the
00:23:22
audience with her at the the AI thing that Biden uh put out the executive order and she turned around she goes I'm
00:23:28
not against this to me like cuz she I'm always like you're so negative Randy and she was like I'm I'm thinking I'm
00:23:34
learning I'm doing this and I think that's probably the thing I say to most teachers is you you yourselves got to
00:23:39
understand it because the kids absolutely get it kind of thing and they'll get it really quickly
00:23:44
Scott uh nice to meet you I I had this warm emotion come over when I was at UCLA and I realized you're at a high school I was close with the Dena students Ray Goldstone and the assistant
00:23:56
Dina students Peter Wier they were both just such wonderful men and all they did was put out fires all day I remember
00:24:01
thinking like when there was just an awful problem no one knew what to do it ended up with the Tina students call
00:24:07
suzan call so thanks thanks for your good and challenging uhh work I'm an AI Optimist around this stuff I think we should be you know if you're trying to teach a kid how to write and put together a paragraph and you know
00:24:21
subject you know whatever no fragments new thought new paragraph then there's going to be AI tools that can look it
00:24:28
it's similar to how we have tools now to see if if they're you know if they're plagiarizing or whatever you're going to
00:24:34
have those tools but in general outside of them teaching them how to write Pros I think it's a tremendously powerful tool I remember in my second year of business school my professor of
00:24:45
manufacturing Sarah Beckman who assist this outstanding Professor I remember the moment I remember when she said I
00:24:51
don't mind you using spell Che some professors actually back then didn't they thought it was cheating for to use
00:24:58
spell Che and I as someone who writes a lot I can tell you that what I found so far and Carri is the exact right word that what AI produces is very anod it
00:25:09
doesn't compel or move anyone to emotion but when I'm wri I'm writing a blog post tomorrow on on Bill Amman and how
00:25:17
basically money has taken the place of democratic institutions and I was trying to come up with unexpected consequences and I typed
00:25:24
into gp4 what are the most unexpected but during consequences of the co pandemic and it came up with 10 things and eight of them I knew but two were different and I'm incorporating that I
00:25:35
think it's great for I think it's just a great tool resarch yeah I think it's going to expand creativity and what I
00:25:42
would want to be doing is wrapping my arms around it and having classes or not even classes but maybe part of class like what are the right prompts to make your paper better what are the right
00:25:54
ways to think what could you ask that would that would give you more examples um I think it's very I think it's really exciting I yeah that's why you need to use it I advise everyone to use it every
00:26:05
day for different things even if you're not going to use it one of the things that I think would work well is timelines like there's certain things
00:26:11
why do them I mean you can do them you can sit in front of an you're doing it in front of an encyclopedia or the internet imagine the internet used to
00:26:19
just take you to the pages and then you pulled off of them um some people more than others including Bill amman's wife
00:26:24
but off of wikkipedia but um you know that people have been doing that for a while paraphrasing or looking up in
00:26:32
encyclopedias this is like that it goes it dives into the content itself which is why they're in so many content fights
00:26:39
with with content makers as they as content makers should be suing them or doing a deal with them um but it's very
00:26:46
it you have to be thinking of what it could be used for and how you can not waste time with students and get them to
00:26:52
the real discussions there's no reason why they have to use an encyclopedia or research papers to do a timeline when it
00:26:59
could do it for you you're it's not a skill to do that it's just not and that's fine you know at some point one
00:27:06
of a lot of reporters are very um reticent to use it you know I was having an argument about headlines I was like
00:27:13
why are we writing headlines anymore we can pick them what's important is then the teacher intervene when and the
00:27:19
student learns about being factual how to use the research learning how to research and this is how people are
00:27:25
going to research in the future is a critical thinking skill and so once you have that there it's sort of like clay
00:27:32
what are you going to make with it and that's where teachers have to have to and should and should be stepping in but
00:27:38
to make it like a they're going to cheat the Assumption of cheating immediately is kind of a terrible way to think of
00:27:44
your students right no absolutely and we don't it was it's really more we want to
00:27:49
use these tools and teach the students how to use them in ways that are helpful but we also want to make sure that they are their creativity isn't limited so I
00:28:01
love Scott's example that he typed in give me 10 unexpected consequences eight of them he knew two he didn't and that's
00:28:08
great but we also want to make sure that our students aren't just going to that list of 10 which we know the large language models are pulling from stuff
00:28:19
that's already happened so how so it's how are they going to bring their own stuff into it and the other thing that
00:28:24
I'll say and um I am very amiliar for somebody of my age with what's going on is that we know that all learning happens in relationship and so we need to make sure that um the customized
00:28:39
tutoring that Khan Academy wants to do or grammarly doesn't take the place of those relationships which is something that I think is so important and here we
00:28:50
are still seeing the impact of the isolation of the pandemic on our youngest students and their socialization skills so agreed I think that's smart I mean I think but that's
00:29:01
why you need to join with the students who are also figuring it out like Avail yourself to their knowledge I think they
00:29:07
feel very good about that explaining to you how they're using it um one of the things is I agree with you on inperson
00:29:14
stuff you know my son's at Michigan right now he's a he was he was having some difficulty with I think a physics
00:29:19
thing and he was using a AI but he's now you know he goes to a tutoring thing too like where
00:29:26
there's a person in there so they can discuss the ideas and I think you can do them in conjunction with each other in a
00:29:33
way for some reason people think it's either or and I do think technology can really Aid you and again join with them
00:29:41
you know again I think so too many teachers that when I they talk to me are like how are they going to cheat I'm
00:29:46
like well how are they going to learn why don't you think that way so it could and some customized things could be
00:29:51
interesting right maybe they could design things um I think you're talking about serendipity like the serend of
00:29:57
learning right correct yes yeah yeah so it's really it's a really exciting time and it can be you can see it going sideways rather quickly but you could also you know obviously you're obviously
00:30:09
a highly intelligent educator um don't necess it's like being scared of an iPhone like or being it's not that's not it's not that's the internet's not the problem I mean it can be in many ways
00:30:21
but it's how people use it and I think teachers have got to geted sure and and one of the things
00:30:28
that's so important always is that this is no different the use of AI is no different than using any other
00:30:34
unauthorized Source right and so we we already have tools in place for that so it um it's not fear more just yeah you don't know well you know what it'll get better I'm sorry to tell you it's going
00:30:46
to get better while we're GNA the last part of my book I just finished I said I used an AI thing as a joke at the end
00:30:52
and then I said it's really bad they wrote an end to my book that I said this is just terrible I said but I'm going to
00:30:58
get worse and it's going to get better that's how it's it's the it's the worst it's ever going to be right now and it's
00:31:04
just such a it's mind-blowing to think about it that way anyway we appreciate it and we appreciate your work with
00:31:09
students thank you Dean Suzanne how great was it to talk to all these listeners I mean they're really smarter
00:31:15
than we are that's that's a conclusion I just made I I generally registered an emotion of intimidation because I
00:31:21
thought these people probably see through my I mean these I was struck at I awful and smart aren't these
00:31:27
people where it's really important to get other people's perspectives we always like them even when we don't agree and they challenge
00:31:36
us