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the more Donald Trump gets away with, if he is allowed to pardon people and there's not enough uproar about it and
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nothing happens and he's going to um pick he's going to arrest people without
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due process on the streets or detain them uh even if they're American citizens.
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>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Fox Media Podcast
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Network. I'm Cara Swisser >> and I'm Scott Galloway. >> Uh again Scott, we have to do an
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emergency episode. This is getting kind of ridiculous. uh we had to jump in here
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to talk uh to our audience about what's happening right now with journalists and
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our friend Don Lemon right now. He was recently on the show uh as a guest host while you were away. Um but he was
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arrested by authorities in Los Angeles Thursday night where he was covering the Grammy Awards um accused of violating
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federal law tied to a protest he covered as a journalist at a Minnesota church earlier this month. Lemon and three
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other journalists were arrested in connection with with this uh this event at the city's church in St. Paul,
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Minnesota. Attorney General Pam Bondi said she ordered the arrest of Don and three others citing a connection to a
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coordinated attack on the church. Don has repeatedly said he was there as a journalist, not a protester. And if you
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watch what he did there, that's what he was doing, including interviewing the
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pastor and others. A magistrate judge rejected an earlier attempt by the DOJ to bring charges against Don uh and
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other protesters. And the DOJ petitioned a federal appeals court to force the judge to issue an additional warrants
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only to be denied. But the DOJ went ahead anyway even though courts and prosecutors within those offices in Los
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Angeles and Minnesota are resisting this. Lemon's lawyers called the attack uh the arrest an attack on the First
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Amendment obviously and says Lemon will fight the case in court. He's supposed
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to be uh arraigned uh today in Los Angeles. Obviously, Don's a friend of ours, a friend of mine. Um he's been uh
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been reaching uh reaching out Pat when he when he was fired from CNN. He and I got to know each other because I helped
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him sort of mount what he was doing, which was independent journalism. And I've been very proud of him what he's
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been doing. He's doing a lot of street journalism, taking his his uh microphone
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to people, asking them questions. He's built a big following on YouTube. I think he crossed a million subscribers
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recently. But what's what he's doing is really amazing. He's doing these things
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and what he does, he's a man on the street essentially. And so he went into this church while this event was taking
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place and um and was doing reporting and which a lot of reporters should do. You
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know, I think he's found a new life in doing it as an independent journalist.
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And it's pretty um pretty amazing all the stuff he's been doing. very varied
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and talking to all kinds of people, not just liberals and but conservatives. He goes in places other journalists don't
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go. Um, and I think it's a real value what he's doing. And so he was doing
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this here. Um, he was then it was the Grammys. I mean, it's very varied where
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he goes. Uh, he was in New Orleans for New Year's and stuff. And so what he was
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doing here was journalism. And because, you know, he's had a target on him by
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the Trump administration who never liked him when he was at CNN. And uh and so this is what they're doing. And they're
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getting what they were getting is a lot of pressure from church groups for this group going into a church. And you can
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debate whether they should have gone in that church, but a journalist certainly could follow a group of people in there.
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He did not coordinate the attacks. They're going to try to allege he did that he was part of it. Um, but it's
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really again part of this uh what I said on in today's episode that just aired
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was they're going to keep escalating because they're desperate and they're
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losing the public case. Um, and so part of their their their uh handbook here, the fascist handbook, is to attack
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journalists. It's happened in Turkey. It's happened in all manner of the
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authoritarian countries. And this is what you do. And uh and so doing these high-profile cases, even though judges
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and lawyers do not want to do this and say it's full of [ __ ] which it is, um
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is really frightening. Um and it's meant to frighten. And what we have to do is
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push back. We have to fight it. But the fact is they will keep doing this and they will not back out. They will not
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deescalate. This is part of the the this is part of the problem is you all think
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you can work with these people and you cannot. Uh any thoughts you have? I I'm
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it makes me nervous. I have a lot of people who have have been threatening to me and uh it makes every journalist
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who's doing any kind of speaking out um really uh really at at risk I would say.
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>> Yeah. I think it's important to distinguish that this wasn't uh you know
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50 people refusing to leave an area and they get arrested one by one for trespassing. This was our attorney
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general, the federal government, >> specifically targeting specific journalists and essentially
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>> deciding to criminalize journalism, which >> at the end of the day, it converts
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politics into policing. And also, >> this really should be a cause for alarm
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be >> well, it's the first step in state capture of truth. They >> they arrest journalists. That's kind of
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the first step towards mass repression. And it's not usually just journalists
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that go after loud critics, polarizing figures, >> people that the public quite frankly are
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already split on. So Don Lemon is a controversial figure. A lot of people don't like him and will celebrate this.
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But once you normalize >> criminalizing journalism from whatever political spectrum,
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>> the enforcement widens really fast. And just some historical context, >> this happened in Turkey in 2013. The
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initial arrests were seen as quote unquote law enforcement and within 5 years Turkey became the world's largest
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jailer of journalists. Russia in the 2000s early cases targeted quote unquote controversial reporters and the result
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now is that Russia now ranks in the bottom 10% globally for press freedom. The other the you know I always go to
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the money here. When a society starts doing this, it almost always uh predates economic collapse. Whether it's Egypt,
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whether it's Hungary, this isn't a good move for the economy because what
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happens here is it's not the censorship itself, >> but it creates an environment of
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selfcensorship where people stop >> start spiking stories etc. And this isn't also this line t
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>> this the last thing I'll say this line >> tends to be a difficult line
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>> to cross back easily once you start normalizing they did it in thear republic they did it in Hong Kong once
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you start normalizing the arrests of journalists and controversial figures it's it's a fast hill down and a slow
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hill uh back >> yeah I would agree I mean one of the things that's really disturbing is it's
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not just this arrest which is the explicit version of it is what we're talking about is the capture by these
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tech billionaires of these institutions that are sort of soft pedalling. Now, there's one thing for Fox News. We know
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they feel like a state propaganda arm most of the time. Not always, but most of the time, you know, I talked to a lot
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of people, they call uh Fox News entertainment, but it's actually propaganda and and everyone kind of
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expects it. In this case, there's this sort of this slow burn whether it's Jeff
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Bezos, you know, uh, you know, deepixing the Kla Harris um, endorsement or ma or
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or making changes or gutting out the Washington Post, whether you have Larry Ellison um, at through Oracle owning a
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big chunk of Tik Tok and also changing CBS News into this bothsiderism kind of situation. Um it's it's that too, the
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sort of soft grab of of press power which happens in these places and then this very hard grab which is to arrest
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journalists. And you're right, they're picking someone who they've had a beef
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with for a long time who the you know it's in a church. So it creates that kind of like how dare he go in a church.
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But this is where journalists go everybody. I'm sorry. You can have your you can this should be litigated through
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the courts with the protesters whether they trespassed or not, whether they were on private property, but Don
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Lemon's a journalist and he followed them in there. And so, and frankly, more
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journalists should have followed him in there. The fact that he was one of the few, there was just a few of them there.
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And so when you're covering these protests, often journalists get caught up in um in the they don't get caught up
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in the protests, but they're there when there's um you know, say tear gas or
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whatever. And they're often pushed to the ground. They're often abused. I have
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years ago I was in a there was a protest at at a neo-Nazi rally in Germany and I
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got hit with all kinds of things and it was it's such a melee kind of stuff and
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but John was if you go and watch it he was interviewing people including people at the church and while they may have
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been offended by the fact that he was there interviewing them he's allowed to
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do that under the first amendment and it let me just say the first amendment says
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government shall make no law this is the government acting Um, again, it's it's really frightening.
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And of course, Pam Bondi, the Justice Department has been an arm of Donald Trump, not the independent body. It is
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it has long previously had been in terms of of relationships with president. She
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is a lackey. She all these people are lackey um to to this authoritarian experiment. And let me let me stress
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Donald Trump's uh poll numbers are tanking like tanking like astonishingly. Everyone is worse and worse among all
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kinds of groups of people. And so what they have to do is this. And therefore next week in Ohio, they're going to
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they're going to make a spectacle of uh Haitian immigrants there, try to get rid
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of them because they lose their ability to stay there. Then they're going to be
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doing that. They're going to send ice in with mass goons all over the place.
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they're going to they go to Georgia and do the election thing. This is not this
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is all of one piece and journalists attacking journalists is is is part of it and they will they will double down
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and double down and double down until the midterms. And if they can stop those midterms, they most certainly will. I
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don't believe they can, but they will do everything in their power to create
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a a situation where they'll be able to pull the Insures Act or whatever they
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want to do so that they can suppress. And the only good thing that you have here is everybody is speaking out
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against this. And secondly, um uh that this is a big country. It's a little harder to control this country. And as
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you could see from what's happened in Minneapolis, that is the kind of reaction that you're going to get. These
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those protests uh were largely peaceful. People standing up, average citizens. They can't keep pretending everybody is
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a paid agitator. It's one of their tricks. And it shows weakness, but it also shows brutality and a kind of
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strength that should be frightening to all Americans. Um, I'm not going to get
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on high of journalists and first amendment, but hello, it's the first amendment. We have a right to all the
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amendments, all of all the bill of rights, and slowly uh the Trump administration is trying to take away
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your constitutional rights. Uh, and definitely just did that to Don Lemon today.
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>> I don't have a background in journalism. you you immediately texted this morning,
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you're obviously very rattled and upset by this and I understand, >> but as someone who's watching the whole
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thing, but doesn't I don't have a lot of familiarity with the First Amendment or
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or a background in journalism, but what I do perceive as the following, and that
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is, let's be let's just call this what what it is. The attorney general appointed by the president isn't
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arresting journalists to enforce laws. She's arresting journalists to shape reality. And once the state,
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the way I see it, once the state decides who may safely speak, politics stops being a debate and it becomes a
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permission structure. And also, as someone who spends a lot of time thinking and studying World War II and
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20th century conflict history, history around this around arresting journalists is brutally consistent.
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Countries that start arresting journalists in targeted ways, they don't become more stable. They don't become
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more truthful or more democratic. They become quieter. Then they become much poorer
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and then much angrier. This is a cycle that repeats out consistently. So if you want to be
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poorer and you want to be angrier, you let the immediate slide of targeted arrested journalisms turn of journalists
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turn into a chill and a quiet. If there's not, history shows if there's not immediate gag reflex push back that
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forces the immediate rethinking and withdrawal of targeted arrested journalists. History is clear. It slides
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fast. Selfcensorship poor angrier. >> Yep. And let me just say finally, do not
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let them both sides this. Don't let them. They're trying to do it with Alex
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Pettit. They're trying to do it with Renee Good. They're always trying to
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find excuses for murder. They're trying to find excuses for arresting journalists. There aren't any here. Uh
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and and our heart goes out to Don. I Don Don's a friend. He's been a guest host
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here. He's very brilliant. And he's really working really hard to try to do
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something different. And uh like him or not, and I love him. uh you you really have to be terrified for people
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including and let me point out the arrest the the ste the taking of the Washington Post reporters uh file uh
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computers and files without a word from Jeff Bezos. I mean he's swanning around
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Paris at fashion shows. This is where we are folks and so pay attention. >> Well just again I go to the economic
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side of it. The fastest part of growing part of our digital economy is a creator
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economy. Yeah. And what does this mean for all creators that you have some sort of Orwellian environment where you can
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only certain people can speak about politics, politics >> and and global issues whether it's
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climate warming or the incel movement or >> we're talking about you know free
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speech. There's a wonderful part of the economy developing where people feel like they can express their
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views. >> Yep. And if somebody who leaves traditional media and is successful in
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the crater economy and ends up in jail because of the viewpoint seems to be crosshaird with the current
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administration. I mean you can just see how this begins immediately to start to damage the economy and also what kind of
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message does this send to young people that you have the opportunity to speak out and create your own content only if
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it's the right type of content. There's a basic tenant of democratic societies
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and it's the following and it's simple and it's you know but it's very
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straightforward and that is the following. Pretty much anybody should be able to say pretty much anything about
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pretty much anyone else. That's it. And we have revered that and we have protected it. And the moment the moment
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that falls, it is really hard to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. >> Absolutely. I mean, I like that you're
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actually focusing in on the on the on the business part of it because it's important, too. It's easy to get, you
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know, a high dudge in here, which I have, but you're right. It this is an exciting part of the economy. And um and
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and the fact that that they're doing this is just typical. This is so we are
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hungry. We're becoming hungry. We're becoming, you know, this soft descent
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into hungry. I don't know what else to say. It's so ridiculous. and and and uh
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fiction. I'm looking up just uh the first amendment. I'm just going to read
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it for people for goodness sake. Let me uh I'm just going to do it. Cong. It's
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very short, Scott. And it's first, so it's super easy. Congress shall make no
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law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the
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freedom of speech or of the press or of the right of the people peaceibly to assemble and to petition the government
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for redress of grievances. Well, folks, we're agrieved and we're going to
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petition them for that. Anyway, Don, we're thinking >> we're going to continue to piece
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peaceibly assemble. >> Yes, and we are. You know why it's first? Because it's best. Anyway, uh I
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appreciate it, Scott. Thank you so much. I was super rattled this morning. And my
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good friend Scott uh as usual has some amazing insights and it's really important that we keep at this. And if I
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get arrested, Scott, will you come and get me? Will you come? I I'm literally
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I'm proud to say and this goes for you. I'm people's jail call. I always carry a
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[ __ ] ton of cash and I'm a night person. So I'll come down anywhere late at night
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with a bunch of cash and all like that. >> A lot of discretion, no questions asked.
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I'm your call, Cara. >> All right. Thanks, Scott. >> There you go.
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>> All right, everybody. Thank you very much again. That's the Emergency Show.
00:16:56
Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back with a full show
00:17:02
on Tuesday.