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Lesbians know what penises look like. We know what they look like. That's partly the way you figure out you're a lesbian.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I am the very nasty and openly
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lesbian Cara Swisser. That's according to my number one fan, Megan Kelly. Scott is off today, but in his place, I
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brought in someone whom Megan Kelly might also take issue with, the host of Crooked Media's Pod Save America and
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Love It or Leave It, John Love It. Welcome, John. Hi. Good to see you. Good. Did you see Megan trying to flirt
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with me online? Did you see that situation? I Yes. Um, you know, dipping your dipping your pigtails in ink. For
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sure. I mean, seriously, what is the deal? Did you understand? I like LGB but not tea. Oh, of course. Of course,
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they're they're trying to divide the T off from the LGB. They That's what they I don't think she knows what Q is or plus. Like, what is plus? What is Q? They're they're Look, they haven't
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gotten to They haven't They haven't figured out how to how to No, I don't think they know what the Q is. They
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certainly don't know what the IIA is. They're not into any of these letters, but they're mostly focused on trying to
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They want the They want the T off of the flag. Yeah. And we have to keep the T on the flag. Yeah. I didn't make a response
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to the New York Post when they called me for one. I felt that was the right way to go, didn't you think? Yeah. Well, it
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it it it seems as though this is Is it just drumming up a a misunderstanding from years ago to find a way to talk about you? Is that what this is? I have no idea. I I called her a rage machine
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last week on the show because she is she just yells at everybody and and you know, and she wasn't she I hate to say
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it's so talking about Elon Musk. They weren't exactly like this then and so it's kind of a shock. What happened is
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she had canceled on the show and we had had back and forth back and forth and I think I wrote sort of a to my to the
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staff and her person like when are we going to do this thing and then the person said her sister died and I then I wrote I'm really sorry. So the whole
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thing is I didn't know right and then it was ridiculous. Of course I'm sorry her sister died. It's just very strange. I
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think it was just an excuse to yell at me for a little while but yeah that's what it seemed that's what it seems like. That's what it seems like. She has
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a podcast network like you guys. Did you know that? She I Well, the reason I know about it is because she called you a
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[ __ ] lesbian or whatever she said. That's how I I mean that's the whole purp that's this is that this is there's like a like she there's a cycle to this,
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right? Like you know she picks these fights. It it generates a page six story. It gets attention. Uh it's what
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she's done. Who do you beef with? Who beefs at you from the right? Well, John gotten in a fight with JD
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Vance on Twitter. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. uh which it's just incredible that the vice president explain that for the
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people what it was about. It was about the fact that the Trump administration is uh I don't even want to call it deporting. It is uh
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kidnapping people and dispatching them to uh Gulog in El Salvador. And we have increasing evidence that they're making mistakes as they do this. And now the administration is claiming once you've
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been sent to this mega prison in El Salvador, they don't they don't have the ability to bring you back. So no
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mistakes. So there's no due process to catch mistakes in advance and no way to rectify mistakes once they've happened
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which is uh obviously wrong even if you are getting it right. But now we see that they are getting it wrong of course and Vance was defensive and dissembling
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and lying. uh about what the records said about one example, right? That he was in M13 or whatever that he was MS MS, excuse me, and then and then he
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wasn't right. It was just like nonsense. Well, the we have no idea other than there is no evidence for it, right? That and the evidence there's no Well, of course, there's there's certainly Yes,
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they they have they have provided no evidence that this person was in MS MS-13. Vance claimed he was convicted as as far as we could tell, this person has never been convicted uh uh in the US of
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a crime, right? And and the rec and the evidence he cited wasn't there. Um we have, you know, similarly, we have this
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for other examples of people that that seem to have been rounded up because they had uh tattoos that drew that that
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rubbed an ICE Yeah. uh officer the wrong way, including a a tattoo for autism awareness. Yeah. The guy that was the
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gay barber. Was that the gay barber? No, the the gay barber had a crown that said mom and a crown that said dad. Yeah. I
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mean, it's ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. It's evil. It's evil. All of it. Well, good for John. Anyway, we've
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got a lot to get to today. This it's really kind of a dark time. At the same time, it's tons of material for us to
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talk about and tons of things to get uh in up in arms about about what's going on. And we've got a lot to get to today,
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including Trump giving the middle finger to the rest of the world via tariffs with these sweeping new tariffs, which
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seem ridiculous. and every e economist on all sides is is sort of pretty pretty uh perplexed about the whole thing. Um and plus what's next for Tik Tok. But first, President Trump has reportedly
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told his inner circle that Elon Musk will be transitioning out of his administration in the coming weeks according to Politico. The White House
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is denying the report with press secretary Carolyn Levit calling it garbage in a post on X. Elon also waited
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on X saying it's fake news. Um, we'll get to Elon's roll in Wisconsin election in a bit, but the big picture if Elon is
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indeed beginning to step back. Uh, what do you think about the move and the timing, the 130day tenure as special
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government employees due to end in uh, late May, early June, whatever that is. It might be time for him to focus back
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on Tesla. The company shared its dramatic numbers this week. Dramatically bad. Sales plunged 13% in the first
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three months of the year, the largest drop of deliveries in history. Nobody wants it. Obviously, these protests are counting, but also the fact they don't
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have any innovative cars. Um, how do you uh how does what is from your perspective what's going on here with their communications and then what happens when he's not in his orbit and
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stops the day-to-day government business that he's doing and what will happen to Doge um uh in that in that uh in when
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that happens. Um in Scott's absence, just to finish up, I'll note he predicted Elon's exit at the end of uh
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and the end of Doge just a few weeks ago. Let's listen. So I think he's basically going to pull a VC and just
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slowly fade away out of and I think Doge is going to die a quiet death because he has it it looks as if his he's his power
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has been emasculated and two he's just losing so much money right now. So talk a little bit about this. What do you what do you imagine is happening here? So, I think first of all, we should
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dispense with the idea that this is because the 130day window is up because as we all know, Trump is has nothing but respect for arcane rules governing when
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people can and cannot serve. So, that's that's ridiculous. I I don't like I think it is probably
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too pat and too convenient for all of us that have found the way that Elon Musk has sort of rampage through the government to be obviously disgraceful but also
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politically unpalatable to say ah look what's we'll talk about Wisconsin but uh he's deeply unpopular doge uh is
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bringing negative attention to Trump put Elon out there as a shield He took all of these hits and now because he's unpopular, Trump's moving him aside. I I
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don't think it's I don't think it's um unreasonable for them to say this was always basically the plan that he was going to come for a few months, get this thing rolling, and then step back. That
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said, Elon Musk has drawn so much negative attention to what could have been a far more boring
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uh endeavor that that he has brought so much negative attention to the kinds of cuts that they might have wanted to make but probably not with this much fanfare,
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right? And probably with without this much chaos. What what is unclear is a how much of this can go on without Elon as this singular aggressive figure.
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Mhm. and B, how much of what he's already done is so damaging that basic and and so complete that really they've gotten what they wanted to get out of Doge and now they can move on which is
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break everything, fire everybody. You know, I have a I have a friend at the VA and uh he was talking about how yeah, you know, the the the surgeries are continuing, but a bunch of people lost
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their the access to the computer system because they were fired and then unfired, but they haven't gotten it back. So, they're not really able to
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work, right? Like a lot of the chaos, it leaves the headlines, but it's ongoing, right? These agencies have been
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hobbled in ways that we know about, in a lot of ways that we don't know about. So, uh, it doesn't surprise me that he'd
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be stepping back. And I also, you know, Trump can't possibly be enjoying how much blowback this is getting and how much is coming onto him. Yeah, I I had talked about the idea of a heat shield
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that he does like he wants to do these things and not get blamed. And it is interesting that Elon has such bad
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negatives. Um, I think Harry Anon on CNN said he's political poison for anybody who's near him. We'll talk about
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Wisconsin in a second, but and he's much but Trump has less negatives even though he's his boss, presumable boss. So he
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does pee shields are not the worst thing in the world. You know, someone as you said rampaging through the government.
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And I think one of the things I had said uh you know when they these reports came out and when when the Wisconsin thing
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happened um they were like okay that's it. I'm like no no he's not he doesn't care about a failure. He'll just keep he'll make it not a failure. He'll pretend it's not what you did here. Um,
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and then he'll move on to his next disasterous kind of mess and he doesn't care. I think the issue is making a
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nuisance of himself, making himself the center. And in Wisconsin, he was by himself, right? Trump didn't wasn't
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wasn't physically present there the way he often is and he wasn't. And so with Elon as the center of attention wearing
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that cheese head, um, it was kind of like Dakus and the tank. remember when he had that picture or any of those
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unfortunate pictures that some or or Ronda Santis in the boots or things like that. Um but so let's talk about the
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Wisconsin election where despite spending $25 million uh Elon was unable to buy a state supreme court seat. You
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can buy a presidency for $200 million, but you cannot buy state supreme court seat for 20 for a tenth of that. Um,
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Democratic back candidate Susan Crawford handily uh beat her conservative opponent Brad uh Shiml, maintaining the
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liberal majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court. She's replacing another justice who is a liberal justice. In
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terms of the other elections this week, Republicans did keep those House seats in Florida to replace Matt Gates and Mike Walls through margins were
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significantly narrower than in the last election. The strategy making Elon the enemy was effective in the Wisconsin
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race. I think he's just irritating and though he didn't help himself as I said with the cheese head hat. um what is the
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playbook because he's not always going to be there to beat up on and of course on Sunday he said the entire destiny of
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humanity hung on this race but he later said I expected to lose there is a value to losing a piece uh a piece for
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positional gain which I'm calling downward-f facing Doge um what what what is what is happening here because I'm I'm trying to sort of like is it a good thing is it a bad thing like I'm always
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quite wary even when these people lose of how much they actually lose oh It's It's a very good thing that he lost. He
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got nothing for that money. They lost the other statewide races as well. I was in Wisconsin in the runup and I went
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knocking on doors and obviously that's anecdotal, but we talked to went to 150 doors and Elon had made himself the main
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character. It was what's on people's minds. One example, we were just walking down
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the street and someone in the neighborhood was like, "Well, what are you guys what are you knocking on doors for?" We said, "Oh, we're trying to make sure everybody gets out to vote for
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Susan Crawford." And they said, "Uh, can you believe what's going on with Elon? They're setting the Teslas on fire. He's
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spending 25 million. We're spending millions of dollars in the state." Uh, and I think it again, like I would
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love to say that, oh, Elon, this is proof that Elon Musk is political poison. Mhm. I I don't know that. I think what you can say is that in this environment, and this is very good news,
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no amount of money can overcome the political fundamentals. Uh and Elon Musk is not a persuasive figure to the kinds of voters that Republicans need. And the
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independence, yeah, he's the independent I call him repellent. He's repellent to voters. He he is he's toxic. And uh why
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is that? Why is it? obviously rich guy, rockets, this and that. What has happened here? I look I think there's
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the the obvious answer which he has a terrible personality and u getting to know him more meaning we're yeah he and he's and he's abusing his wealth without respect for
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our democracy and I don't mean even you know look he he puts out this announcement saying basically he's going
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to buy votes in Wisconsin it's based a lot of blowback he's accused of committing crimes he changes the
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language on it so that it's more legally permissible. So, he's no longer giving you money for votes. He's giving you
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money for signing a petition, whatever it may be. But fundamentally, he's flying in to Wisconsin on a private jet to throw money down in front of uh the
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populace, like a grand vazier visiting the colonies. And uh we are he is uh uh cutting uh in this chaotic and destructive way parts of the government.
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Uh they may not be they may they may be the parts where they view it as as the weakest for Democrats that defend places
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like USAD, but uh they're also shuttering social security offices. They're coming after
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Medicaid. It's a small I don't believe most people are seeing this but but I do think it's
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important that this figure who has taken on this vast amount of power basically bought his way into this role does it with so little respect for the tens of
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millions of people that are skeptical of him or don't like him that he that if he
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is if somebody is protesting him they're soros backed Democrats oppose him only because they are evil. and they want to
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send social security checks to undocumented immigrants that when people are critical of Doge, he claims, "Oh, it is because they're not being specific." Have you noticed they don't offer any
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specifics? This they offer there there has been there's never been more valid specific clear criticism. Meet David Fenold. Meet David like are you are you kidding me?
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You are cutting billions across or claiming to cut billions across this government. We are pointing to specific
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containers ships holding specific amounts of food to get you to release it. So there's a total lack of respect for anyone who is not MAGA. Right?
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That's one of his tricks by the way. He does that in interviews all the time. Show me a specific example. And then I 10 and then he goes, "Show me a
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specific." It's just it's exhausting. It's exhausting. And so like the the the so so he is he is basically he's not
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acting democratically in any way that a person would. You can imagine a version of of of this whole process unfolding
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where he says you know what I'm going to all these agencies. I'm going to listen to some of the people there and I'm
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going to go to the heads of these various departments and I'm going to say, "Oh, you have uh three months, two months, three weeks to give me cuts and
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these are the amount of cuts you have to give me and if you don't give me this amount of cuts, I'm going to do it for you." Uh, and you can imagine him uh uh
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engaging with people on the actual substance of these criticisms. But he can't do that. He has no aptitude or
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willingness to do that. And we don't know with Elon when he goes in front of a crowd and says uh this is a grand
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scheme to bring in uh immigrants to turn them into voters. We don't know if he believes that or if he just believes that's an advantage advantageous argument to make in front of the people
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for whom he has no respect. He burns PR people like you can't believe like and he had some good ones many years ago,
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right? But he obviously PR is critically important to him. He wants to be seen as the center of attention, you know, when
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he seems like a nuisance and and he think he pretends to be funny when the only person that's funny is his his
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daughter Vivian, right? Who's actually funny. Um I will can I just I will say though I I do think the most important
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like just stepping back from his sort of repellent uh qualities. Repellent. Isn't
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that a good word? Very good word. Here's what I think we've learned and I think this is what's most important even if
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you don't for Democrats. Yeah. for Democrats and Republicans, even if you can't totally fig you can't tease the,
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you know, the correlation from the causation. Uh we learned that $25 million in Wisconsin did not change the
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outcome of these races. Uh and Crawford overperformed against other statewide races. And then we learned in Florida in these uh special house races uh that
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Democrats overperformed by roughly whatever 15 to 17 points. Mhm. And what does that tell you? It tells you that
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there are a bunch of vulnerable Republicans that are whose margins of victory were well below 15 points who are looking at this and saying, "Hold
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on, I have a ter I have a deeply uh uh controversial vote coming my way for reconciliation that involves tax cuts for the wealthy and Medicaid cuts.
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Elon's Elon's money cannot protect me from the general." Mhm. So, is it now the the choice? Do I side with Elon, prevent a primary, and hope his money
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protects me in the fall, or do I side with my constituents, brace for a primary, get through it, and hope my
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voters reward me for not going along with the Trump agenda? Like, that choice just got a lot harder for some of these
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Republicans. It is. And I think one of the things that I heard one Republican making is we they don't have any game
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below Donald Trump because I think he's still popular with the people he's popular with, period. And I I do, you
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know, I think that if he's not present, they got their their bench gets real thin and really irritating. Like you've
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got the charmless JD Vance. You've got the the sad, soulful Marco Rubio who looks like a loser. You've got like
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there's no game. And then crazy Howard Lutnik, like you know, uh he seems like Crazy Eddie from the old days. And um it
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just it doesn't have if Trump's not present, it's really hard like for them to do anything. And at some point he's
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not going to be present. Interestingly, in contrast, as New Jersey Senator Cy Booker invigorated Democrats this week
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with a 25-hour um speech at at in the uh in the Congress against the Trump administration. Booker is now in the record books for the longest speech uh
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Senate in Senate history, surpassing Strong Thurman's stand against Civil Rights Act of 1957. Um I have a serious
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question for you, but first let's listen to Senator Booker explain how he managed not to go to the bathroom for the 25 hours. I talked to a lot of people. I
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copied some of the things we did for 15 hours. So, I fasted for days into it. Um, I stopped drinking water a long time
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ago. I think that had good and bad benefits. I I definitely started cramping up uh from lack of water. So, if some of you saw me really drink
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nothing, in the end, I was just trying to do something to stop my muscles from cramping. Um, so there's just a lot of
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tactics I was using to try to make sure that I could stand for that long. So, an impressive accomplishment of not peeing.
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But what why why do people like this? It had a huge um following. Lots of people
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watched it. I was sort of surprised by those numbers. Um it had a you know Mr. Smith goes to Washington quality to it.
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But why do this? Because sometimes I'll be honest, Booker does a lot of stunts and I'm like gh a stunt. But this was a
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good stunt I feel like in some ways. And I don't mean to minimize it by saying stunt, but you know, it is what it is.
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He's trying to garner attention and get focus. Yeah, it's a good stunt. I I I too was I I thought it was a good idea.
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Yeah, I was glad he was doing it. I'm glad to see when anybody is basically trying things to try to grab attention
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in this chaotic media environment. I was al but I was like blown away by the number of people watching it. Uh the amount of clips that were circulating because of it and it just speaks to the
00:21:03
fact that there is a huge hunger uh among the majority of the country that does not support Donald Trump. uh that uh are looking for people who are going
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to fight, that just are going to respond to the moment, to the scale of what we're facing with a sense that this is a different time and we're going to need to treat this differently and we can't
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just uh go along with business as as usual. that that you can't uh you know the plan can't be to uh vote for the continuing resolution and then go on
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your book tour. Like that's just not the world we're living in. This is a dangerous moment and you want to see
00:21:49
leaders that reflect that. Mhm. And this is a look it it is a stunt right because
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ultimately it doesn't have any impact impact but it does draw people's eye to what is happening in our political system and I he is doing something that
00:22:12
required him to sacrifice and to and to go through like some sounds like a fair amount of pain. Uh, and good for him for
00:22:20
doing that. And I think a lot of people will see moments from it, see his passion in it, uh, hear some of the
00:22:26
different arguments he was making. I thought he did a great job talking about Social Security and Medicaid. And you
00:22:34
know, look, a I think a lot of times, you know, Democrats are skittish about how to thread the needle because on the one
00:22:45
hand, they they view Trump as an existential threat to democracy, but on the other, they hear from the consultants and the polls and and genuinely believe that where their best
00:22:57
argument is daytoday is on the ways Trump is going after Social Security, Medicaid, healthare, the basics, the the services and programs people rely on. And I
00:23:08
thought he did a really great job of articulating both of those arguments in specifically around look at all the chaos. Look at all the destruction he's bringing to our democracy. What are we
00:23:20
getting for it? Right. What are we getting for it? Does that raise his profile as a presidential candidate going forward? I mean, he's always been
00:23:27
bandied about as that. I I'm sure it does. I don't I'm sure it does. Everybody Is it is he running for president? Uh is there any senator that isn't in their
00:23:38
minds in some way running for president? Yeah, I it was interesting when I was in Michigan a lot of the students asked me who is going to run. It was sort of
00:23:44
surprised. I'm like oh I don't know like and then made me go through the various incundary people. It was interesting.
00:23:50
They certainly are interested um in looking over the Democratic party in that regard. He definitely raised his
00:23:56
profile. I sort of it's funny like even as you asked that like I I I'm I'm such a political fiend and for whatever reason I have just no appetite for that right now because it first of all
00:24:08
because it feels so far away and also uh like I don't I don't really think there's much you can do to kind of
00:24:14
handicap this race right now. Anybody who wants to be president has got to be somebody and Cy Booker did this great
00:24:22
has to be somewhere someone out there in the fight showing that they understand the politics of this moment that they
00:24:29
have a passion and a rage in them to protect the country. And uh that's sort of that's what I'm looking for. My one
00:24:41
my one my one sort of feeling about it is I am so not interested in the kinds of planning and maneuvers that are about like building a
00:24:56
profile and and carefully managing the roll out like that that is from another era and I'm just completely not interested in that. The book the this the that'll be interesting to see what
00:25:09
works. Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, it's Trump against the world with these new
00:25:14
tariffs. John, we're back and we're recording on the day after Liberation Day. Do you feel liberated? Do you feel
00:25:20
liberated? Yeah. So, this is libering day for liberation day. Uh um President Trump unveiled his latest tariffs, the most expansive yet at the White House on Wednesday with the help
00:25:31
of a giant poster board. He's imposing a 10% tariff on all US trading partners as
00:25:36
well as double digit. He's calling them reciprocal tariffs. They're not. Just so you know, um about the worst offenders,
00:25:42
he seems to Nobody thinks these are good things and the math is like nuts. Um the
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EU face 20% tariffs, Japan 24%, South Korea 26%, and China additional 34% on top of existing tariffs of I think 20%. Russia conveniently didn't make the cut. Trump also is slapping tariffs on
00:26:00
unexpected places like some uninhabited islands on in the Antarctic where only penguins live. People are having a good
00:26:06
time with that. the EU, China, and others are already planning retaliation. Um, he's been very flip-floppy on
00:26:12
terror, sort of red light, green, right, which caused chaos. And now he just dropped the bomb. Like, he really did
00:26:17
essentially drop the mic. Um, the markets opened just a little while ago. The S&P dropped 3.4%. The Dow fell 1,200
00:26:24
points, more than 2%. The Nasdaq is down 3.8%. Big numbers. A number of sectors are getting hit, but in terms of tech
00:26:30
specifically, things are looking rough right now for tech, particularly because they're so invested across the world.
00:26:36
Apple's down over 9%, Amazon down 8%, Nvidia down 6%, Alphabet down 4%, US tech companies are becoming collateral damage when it comes to retaliation, getting hit with fines, restrictions,
00:26:46
and new taxes by major markets worldwide. They also have obviously interconnected with so many different
00:26:52
markets. Um, what do you think of this roll out? Peter Navaro is back, my friend. He's
00:26:58
back and he's crazier than ever. Uh Trump's building a wall and we're all going to pay for it is I think what's happening. Larry Summers uh Larry
00:27:09
Summers posted uh this and he's I don't think anybody famous economist former uh
00:27:15
uh uh Treasury Secretary and somebody who uh is not hyperbolic saying that a crude estimate of Trump's tariffs puts the projected loss at $20 trillion or well over $200,000 per family of four.
00:27:33
Uh, and then he walks through how he reaches that very conservative estimate of the damage there. They're not
00:27:40
reciprocal tariffs. People were baffled by the number. I'm not I'm not an economist, uh, but but people looking at
00:27:46
this, they they're sort of scratching their heads trying to figure out what this number is. And they realized
00:27:52
that it's not based on the tariffs of these other countries. It's a crude calculation based on the trade deficit,
00:27:58
right, with these other countries. and not the trade deficit on goods and services, but just the trade deficit on
00:28:03
goods, right? And so, uh, the the even the administration itself admitted that it was too hard to actually calculate
00:28:15
for every country what the reciprocal tariffs would be. And so, they came up with this ridiculous formula. The hope
00:28:22
has to be that these fake numbers uh are just an opening bid in a negotiation. Chris Murphy had that in his um I'm going to read from some of it. Um Chris Murphy who's been very
00:28:35
vocal just like um Cy Booker uh the senator. Um those trying to understand these tariffs or economic policy are
00:28:41
dangerously naive. The tariffs are a tool to collapse our democracy, a means to comply loyalty with every business
00:28:47
that will need to petition Trump for relief, which many people are. Um, and he what he was saying essentially is
00:28:53
that this gives him power and the reason he can is because he's taking control of spending and taxation into his own hands
00:29:01
and rewarding loyalty and punishing uh disscent. Um, our own revolution was spurred by the king's use of heavy taxation on the colonies to punish uh our push for self-governance. The king's
00:29:12
message was simple, stop protesting and I'll stop taxing. Um just what do you think is happening here besides even Scott doesn't look like an idiot and I don't feel like he is
00:29:24
so now I think Trump has believed since the 80s the last time he formed any new ideas that tariffs are good and that we that our that we have trade deficits because
00:29:38
other countries are taking advantage of us. He has been ha he has been pushing and pushing and pushing to do sweeping tariffs. He was stopped in the first term by cooler heads. Like there's many
00:29:51
ways in which what Trump what we're seeing with Trump is a kind of extreme bizarro version of a normal
00:29:59
pattern with first and second term presidents which is in the first term presidents work for the White House. In
00:30:04
the second term the White House works for the president. Presidents figure out where they can get more control. They
00:30:10
feel more confident in exercising the power. They feel like they belong there. They no longer feel like they're
00:30:16
imposters. And so all the people that would have stopped Trump from doing this, they're gone, right? It's a different set of people. But he has more responsible people. I mean, I think
00:30:27
they're all they all look like [ __ ] idiots today, but he has more responsible people on on uh economics
00:30:33
than he does, say, running around the FBI or HHS. Um, but Trump wanted to do this and nobody could stop him. They put together this halfbaked cockami plan
00:30:45
involving a ridiculous calculation to create these charts. Nobody is really crossing the tees and dotting the eyes,
00:30:51
which is why we're taxing penguins. Uh, and uh, the end result is this chaos. That said, I think the point that Chris Murphy is making is a is a really important one. He has a lot of grand
00:31:06
language there. Trump knows. Trump likes using his power. He likes the way it feels to
00:31:13
exercise power. Congress has given way too much authority to the president on tariffs. He puts these tariffs in place
00:31:19
and all of a sudden Republican House members are lobbying him uh uh businesses are lobbying him for relief. Countries are lobbying him for relief.
00:31:29
And even if you view it, even if you take the most generous version of it, right, which is not that he's doing this
00:31:34
to destroy democracy, but doing this to create leverage, the question is what does he do with it, right? And can he
00:31:42
use these tariffs uh say on agriculture where or to provide relief for these tariffs on agriculture to to rally votes
00:31:50
for uh a bill for example. And so I do think this is about power. I do think this is about control, but I also think he genuinely believes that tariffs are good and and implications right now
00:32:03
right at the beginning of this. Obviously, the stock market's down. Obviously, Wall Street's screaming, so
00:32:09
are farmers. So are everybody screaming essentially. I I think we just don't know the the it's interesting because we we talked about this on Pave America on
00:32:20
Monday and look there's a lot of like hyperbolic partisans talking about how the markets are crashing, the markets are crashing and they weren't. They actually weren't. They were down. They were of course down, but year-over-year
00:32:33
they were up and the question was why? And it seems like what we've learned today is nobody really believed it would
00:32:40
be as bad as what they announced, right? And I still don't think we know. And what we have to watch unfold is are we seeing the beginning of a truly disastrous long-term
00:32:55
uh tariff policy? Or is this a extreme version of what we saw when he first put in place the Canada and Mexico tariffs, which is he talks a big game, but if he gets concessions in quote or push back
00:33:08
or just fake concessions like a fentinelar or uh a press conference in which the Mexican president announces policies she had already put in place months earlier, will he lower them?
00:33:20
Right? Like what what does he want to reduce these numbers? the the hope has to be that because these figures are so ridiculous, right? Like they're he's calling them reciprocal tariffs. Like
00:33:31
how does Vietnam, uh the they're being asked to reduce their tariffs that don't exist balloon, you know, this is about a trade deficit.
00:33:41
I think the one thing that's not being noticed is service ter service issues because that's tech companies and we are
00:33:47
in a not a deficit, we're in quite the opposite where we have the advantage there by I think $300 billion dollars.
00:33:53
um we're in a surplus in that regard and now there now Europe is going to target
00:33:58
you know the McKenzies of the world the the the cloud business of whoever Microsoft and whatever and so we have a
00:34:05
real vulnerability in the service which is why you're seeing the tech companies get so whacked here look at just the
00:34:10
Canada example right uh Trump rails against this they're taking advantage of us this this trade deficit this trade deficit if you take away fossil fuels if you don't if you don't look at oil and
00:34:22
gas. We have a trade surplus with Canada. They're our biggest customer, right? Like this is supposed to be to help domestic
00:34:28
manufacturing. Domestic manufacturers, a lot of their customers are around the world. They're going to take a huge hit
00:34:34
because of this. The other big problem here is even on Trump's own terms, the fact that nobody truly believes or can
00:34:41
know whether these will be upheld consistently, right? How is anybody going to plan to build in America? How
00:34:50
is that possible? Would you build a factory? Why on earth would you build a factory when you know that a when you
00:34:56
when you don't know that these tariffs are going to stay in place? And even if they do, you know that that America is going to be isolated from the rest of
00:35:02
the world. It's actually just another example of just the the chaos and incompetence makes them fail even on
00:35:09
their own terms. Even though on their own terms, right? Doge is going to end up costing the government money, right?
00:35:15
because of how hamfistedly and stupidly they've done this. Getting rid of the IG's, getting rid of the parts of the
00:35:22
government that figure out what's effective and what's not, right? Firing the the the best and the brightest, the
00:35:29
new and excited people that have just been hired, the people that were just promoted, uh the lawsuits that will
00:35:36
inevitably come, that will cost the government millions and millions and millions of dollars, billions of dollars, who knows? Uh same same here.
00:35:43
Yeah, I I I think we know now how he bankrupted his casinos. I just feel like we have such insight into why his businesses are so shitty. Um, at the same time, I'm going to move on really
00:35:54
quickly because one of the things another podcaster, uh, Joe Rogan thinks the Trump administration's deportations
00:36:00
are horrific because now even the thing that he pulls strongest on, which is immigration, um, some of he's starting
00:36:07
to get push back there. Uh, let's listen. You got to get scared that people who are not criminals are getting
00:36:14
like lassued up and deported and sent to like El Salvador prison. This is kind of
00:36:22
crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific and that's again that's bad for the cause. Like the cause is
00:36:28
let's get the gang members out. Everybody agrees. But let's not innocent gay hairdressers get lumped up with the
00:36:33
gangs and then like how long before that guy can get out? Like can we can we figure out how to get him out? Does
00:36:38
every does is there any plan in place to alert the authorities that they've made a horrible mistake and correct it?
00:36:44
Sounding somewhat reasonable for Joe Rogan, although you know, you watch the penny drop slowly with this guy. Um, the
00:36:50
administration has acknowledge it deported a man, for example, with protected status to El Salvador because of an administrative error and says they
00:36:56
can't get him back. They can invade Greenland, but they can't get him back from people who are paying. Um, again,
00:37:02
same thing, haphazard. Um people do not like the haphazard nature of a lot of these things, the tariffs, this the the roll out on things that he actually pulls well on. Immigration for example.
00:37:14
Yeah. Look, I mean it's it's forget the politics. What they are doing is despicable. It is despicable. It is
00:37:26
despicable. It doesn't serve public safety. doesn't serve uh the goal of uh uh immigration enforcement, border security, as as Rogan points out, it it
00:37:41
doesn't serve their own agenda. It's just cruel. It's just evil. And it there's just not been enough like Rogan has had more moral clarity than a lot of Democrats on this who have scared
00:37:56
themselves into believing that if they're talking about immigration, they're falling into a trap. As if the
00:38:01
American people cannot handle uh a position as simple as we believe in enforcing our immigration laws, but we have to have due process because government makes mistakes and everybody
00:38:13
has rights. Right? Like that's not that complicated. an argument. The the other part of this and you know, Liberation Day is now kind of a
00:38:25
obviously we're glib about it and they've mostly used it to mean tariffs, but they don't just mean tariffs, right?
00:38:31
Steven Miller has used it to refer to immigration as well. Do we believe that the administration is going to ramp down deportations? Do we believe the administration is going to maintain this
00:38:42
level of deportations? They are building. They are building towards greater and greater deportations. Do we
00:38:48
believe the number of mistakes will go down as they do this more? Of course not. Of course not. And the the the
00:38:56
judge, one of the judges that uh was looking at this said that the Nazis got better treatment under the Alien Enemies Act uh in World War II because she
00:39:09
points out uh you could accidentally sweep up somebody who's here legally who's a citizen. They would have no ability to seek recourse. They end up in a gulong in El Salvador and now they
00:39:22
can't get out. Now the government is claiming they don't have the ability to bring them home. I keep feel like a Sylvester Stallone movie. I feel like I
00:39:29
feel like I've seen these, you know, I'm an afficionado of all these kind of movies where someone's in a prison for
00:39:34
the wrong reason or they're get swept up into something silly and then they're stuck. I mean, look look this this
00:39:41
example, right? Like they they keep saying, "Oh, you know, we're deporting the most dangerous
00:39:47
members of Trend Ara." this the the Andre the the gay hairdresser uh he was not um being held when they he he came for an appointment an asylum
00:40:01
appointment. He thought he was going to be deported until he found himself in this nightmarish situation. The LA he
00:40:07
has not spoken to his family. He doesn't know that right now there are people uh anger and angry and fighting for him. He
00:40:15
is in a he is in a nightmare. He is in a night. He's in a country that's not his own. Think about it. I mean, his head
00:40:21
has been shaved. He's been there for weeks. He has There's no outside. It's torture. We're torturing these people. We've This is not a deportation. This is a kidnapping. The government has
00:40:32
kidnapped these people. And then meanwhile, Christine Gnome poses in kind of like, you know, torture porn
00:40:39
essentially. Her outfits are strange and and in her Rolex in her ro not just the
00:40:45
Rolex the outfits themselves the super shiny shoes I'm like what are you doing modified Nazi what's happening what's
00:40:51
the fashion think about the inhumity yeah oh that is required to stand in front of a group of people that are forced to be there to film this kind of yeah fascist porn are you surprised in
00:41:04
any way I am surprised actually I I'll admit to being I'll be admit to Well, when I saw it, it was surprising. I couldn't believe that they were doing it. I believe I believe there are a lot
00:41:16
of people who like it. I'm not surprised that there are a lot of people who liked it. But I am I am surprised by how
00:41:22
quickly we've gotten this low to have the Secretary of Homeland Security basically making Vietong style
00:41:28
propaganda. You remember the movie Network? Of course I remember the movie Network. Like this is, you know, can you
00:41:34
believe Network is 50 years old? It's completely pertinent. Everything on there we've done like it's unbelievable.
00:41:40
It's unbelievable how good broadcasting executions. That's what I see like I you know that kind of thing. You know we
00:41:46
talk that's sort of a sci-fi trope the idea of national you know broadcast executions. This was one step in that
00:41:53
direction. Absolutely. And and it's it's just the whole the whole nine yards of it is and they they won't fix it because
00:41:59
they're incompetent also. They're incompetent and cruel which makes it different. What makes Well, think about
00:42:04
think about the Yes. They are incompetent and cruel. And the most the most dangerous force in in any society is an
00:42:14
incompetent cruel bureaucracy. A bureaucracy that doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't care who it hurts in
00:42:20
history. It is the most dangerous force. Absolutely. And it starts with these unsavory gang members. And and the next
00:42:26
step is a wider roundup that gets that gets a bunch of people that that they'll point to as being awful human beings who were glad to get out of the country who how dare Democrats try to protect while
00:42:38
meanwhile as part of these uh sweep ups. You end up with legal residents, visa holders, students, citizens, right?
00:42:45
Citizens who don't look like a Norman Rockwell painting, who have tattoos, have accents, maybe don't speak English.
00:42:51
uh as well as they would like who look like the kind of immigrants they want to deport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's where
00:42:58
we're heading. And and and as they're doing that as they're doing that, they're accusing people that do
00:43:04
vandalism of being domestic terrorists. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. Do you um imagine that it's from you have to think about it from a political is there a good political point of view
00:43:15
because people can can feel it, right? People are like, "Wait a minute, that could happen to me. I think that's
00:43:21
really what gets it like that seems strange and people have that trope in their heads or people being unjustly
00:43:27
grabbed and sent somewhere. It's a very familiar from movies and you know history and things like that. Do you think it's an effective tool for Democrats to push in on? So we
00:43:40
have increasing evidence that Donald Trump maybe not only outperformed among recent immigrants but maybe won recent
00:43:52
immigrants. There are more and more stories of people who can't believe that their family members are being impacted by this. That's not the kind of immigrants I thought Trump would. Not my wife, not
00:44:04
my husband. I thought he was going to go against leopard ate your face kind of. Right. Right. Um, and I I I hope people
00:44:12
see that and feel that in the same way people voted for Trump uh, and some of his positions on trade poll well in the run-up to an election and then they watch tariffs unfold and people hate it.
00:44:23
They don't like it. They learn through the through the public debate and come to a new point of view. Right? Public
00:44:29
debates still do manage somehow despite ourselves to educate people about the substance of issues. Um, my my deeper
00:44:36
hope is, you know, you see a lot of a lot of sort of hand ringing coverage about how Trump's turning us into Russia and Trump's turning us into Hungary. Um, but that we have an advantage, which is
00:44:48
that America is still filled with Americans. Mhm. And that we are an individualistic, rambunctious,
00:44:54
rebellious, freedom loving group. Mhm. And uh if even after years of dog of of of anti-immigration propaganda and misinformation and caravans, Americans
00:45:07
still largely are against uh draconian immigration policies. If you look at the polling, people want sensible Yeah, absolutely. It depends on how you ask it. People still want those positions.
00:45:17
People still obviously believe in due process and uh people believe in the constitution. And so we just have to
00:45:24
figure out, we just have to make this real for people. And I, it is unfortunate that it does require playing
00:45:31
defense and watching Trump do these things and then using those as examples to make it real. It could happen to you.
00:45:36
Um, kind of. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, that was a trope a friend of mine was in local news and I said, "How do
00:45:42
you like your marketing is so interesting like on everything?" And he goes, "Oh, it's the it could happen to you trope that they do in local news."
00:45:49
It's like no matter what it is, killer bees, it could happen to you. Mold, it could happen to you. And it was very
00:45:55
effective in getting people to listen to the thing. So that's why it probably could happen to you. And I think people then and that's what Joe Rogan was
00:46:01
doing. Wait a minute. I have tattoos. Just a second here. Um, all right. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back,
00:46:07
we'll talk about the latest in the bid for Tik Tok. I know you're fascinated with Tik Tok, John. I am. John, we're
00:46:13
back with more news. President Trump is reportedly reviewing proposals for Tik Tok um this week. Obviously, um, the
00:46:19
administration is said to be considering bids from Blackstone, Oracle, and Mark Andre, and Amazon threw in a last minute
00:46:24
bid. It actually makes sense. It's probably not a top contender, but Walmart was in the last goround here. Oracle was, too. Uh, the Tik Tok ban
00:46:31
requires no more than 20% of Tik Tok or its parent company owned by foreign adversary countries. So, they're thinking about letting Bite Dance stand
00:46:38
for 19% apparently. Um, uh, I'd love to know, you use Tik Tok a lot, correct? I do. What what what's the Well, I'd love to know a day in the life of your for you page, but um what um what do you
00:46:52
think is going to happen here? And there was an interesting story which I think there's sort of a a poll that's been cast over for TikTok on this, like where
00:46:58
it's going, who's going to own it. A lot of people feel that if they don't get the algorithm, it's not going to be as
00:47:04
good as a product. It's it's lagged a little bit recently. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it feels like it a
00:47:10
little bit that people aren't really the creators aren't putting their shoulders into it the same way. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Um, but what how do you
00:47:18
imagine it's going to happen here? I thought Elon might get a hold of it. Maybe not a good idea to give it to Elon right now from a perceptible point of
00:47:25
view. He seems busy. The I haven't noticed any change in the actual use of the app. It is interesting um how much this has become Trump's
00:47:38
decision, right? Like this the the how how far down the road we've come. talk about how he wants to be the main decider on tariffs and wants people to come kind of kiss the ring. That's what we're seeing here, right? This
00:47:50
presumably should be bite danc's decision, right? Well, China has to cooperate here and now with these
00:47:55
tariffs. I'm not so sure they're feeling cooperative, but Trump is right. Well, that's and that's that that uh there was
00:48:01
some hope apparently on the the part of the Chinese that Tik Tok was a bit of leverage in the in the tariff fight, but
00:48:08
that that doesn't appear to have of have gotten them anything. Um, I don't know what happens with Tik Tok. I was pretty
00:48:15
upset about the way this all went down. The law itself, the law itself, because uh there was very little public debate or explanation about why Tik Tok was so dangerous. And a lot of the explanations
00:48:27
were about the harm it does to people, but people didn't seem to mind if that harm was being done to Americans by
00:48:32
Americans. Instagram is awful uh for young people. I think Tik Tok can be really awful for young people. So, why
00:48:40
is it a good thing if Americans do it to each other, but a bad thing if a foreign country does it to us? Why why do our
00:48:45
own billionaires, you know, running rampage through our minds? Why is that acceptable? Um, and so I never thought
00:48:52
they made the public case, which is why when all of a sudden they caught the car and Tik Tok was about to be banned, they
00:48:57
did this ridiculous uh save Tik Tok, thank you, President Trump [ __ ] and it worked. Uh, so I really don't like
00:49:05
the way this went down. How the look that that it should they didn't make the case. Many people argue that some they didn't make the case at all. They didn't they didn't they just oh it's a national
00:49:16
security threat. Excuse me. Excuse me. Like I my for you pages. Show me your homework. Show me your homework. Right. My my for you pages uh you know recipes
00:49:26
and old clips of Conan. Lot of recipes. Got to make the viral Turkish pasta car.
00:49:31
Really? You have recipes and Conan O'Brien just you know among other things. Guess what? Hot guys. hot guys
00:49:38
doing new kinds of exercises. Oh, yeah. Teaching me ways to lift weights. You know, that's Scott Galloway's favorite, too. Just to, you know, I think that
00:49:44
there's a big overlap between um uh fit middle-aged men uh and and gay guys like
00:49:53
that. There's a big overlap in what they're seeing, which are just handsome men rocking their delts. Rocking their
00:49:59
delts. What do you imagine is on mine? I don't use TikTok that much, but what do you imagine? Oh, I think there'd be I
00:50:05
think we'd see, you know, liz lesbian talk and gay talk are so separate. They're so distinct. They're such distinct universes. I I don't know what we'd see with you. Woodworking clips of
00:50:16
Brandy Carile, that kind of thing. No, you'll be surpris ASMR. ASMR. ASMR. Okay. And and and cooking. I like watching people cook. Okay. I like watching people I don't want to do
00:50:28
recipes. is I just like watching people like especially there's one on threads called food porn that I love. It's just
00:50:34
like I don't I do I'm a good cook but I don't I haven't in a long I don't do it very often as much as I should but I
00:50:41
like watching other people cook. That's weird. But I used to watch the galloping gourmet when I was a kid. I'm not going to go into it. I'm not okay. You
00:50:48
remember him? And then he drank at the end. Drank himself. Who was the gallop? I want to look up the galloping gourmet. The galloping gourmet. It was a guy who
00:50:54
seemed gay but wasn't. Oh, the galloping gourmet. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. He was like uh Julia Child but funnier. I used to watch him cook all the time. Then he'd always drink a bottle of wine
00:51:05
by the end of it and it was very amusing to an eight-year-old. So when I was a kid, the Food Network launched. Yeah.
00:51:11
And everyone was like, "That's got to be a joke. How can you fill a whole network with food content?" And the answer was,
00:51:16
"You can. And it's great." And it was ahead of its time. But I used to watch the Food Network with my mom. I bet you secretly like Paula De, you know. I was
00:51:22
a Jeffrey Weard. Remember Jeffrey Weine Garden? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I remember um he said my mother and I used
00:51:28
to joke about this for years because he said um uh uh fava beans are very in right now. And that's just something we
00:51:35
we said to each other for years. Fava beans are very in right now. They are never in. They've never been
00:51:41
in. Anyway, what do you think the resolution is going to be? Make a prediction. I think one of these deals is going to
00:51:47
be the deal and they're going to it's going to basically look the same at the other side of it and it'll the user
00:51:52
experience will roughly be the same but there will there'll be this sort of change in ownership and I don't know if
00:51:58
the it's a nothing burger by a lot of US people US people own a lot of this thing
00:52:04
and then it's not going to be any more protect if there are problems with China and I unlike you believe there are indeed abuses by the Chinese and they're
00:52:11
a little different I agree is dangerous but I don't really want the Chinese government also up in our our grill in
00:52:17
this way because they have different goals besides just [ __ ] us. They want to [ __ ] us and beat us kind of thing.
00:52:23
And um but I think that they uh they're it's going to be more dangerous than ever in those regards from national
00:52:28
security point of view and they won't solve the problem and then everyone will make money the people that the same
00:52:34
people you're complaining about. But we'll see. Um uh but I don't I don't think Elon will be part of this but
00:52:40
maybe he will. Maybe he'll get him. He's such a nuisance. He'll probably try to get in there. Um, all right, John. One
00:52:45
more quick break. When we'll when we come back, we'll be doing some predictions. Okay, John, let's hear a
00:52:51
prediction. Do you have a prediction for us? I do have a prediction. I'm I'm actually re-upping a prediction that I
00:52:56
made before the election, but I want to make it here because I I want it on the record, which is I said this last year,
00:53:02
which is that if Donald Trump won, uh, Eric Adams would end up in the cabinet. And I just want to just lay that down
00:53:09
once again. Oh, that I believe that that is the end result of because he'll lose
00:53:14
mayoral election. He's going he's he just announced today he's going to be an independent. Mhm. And he's already he's
00:53:20
already started the suckup process with Trump. I just Which what what what job will he get? I guess who are they going to take out? Cash Patel or Well, I
00:53:27
always I thought he was always a I thought he was a a natural for Homeland Security. That's a natural fit for him,
00:53:32
but I could see him at FBI, too. We'll see. FBI. Interesting. Depends how Depends how long Christine Gnome lasts. Oh my god, they're all moving here.
00:53:38
Speaking of moving here, I'll tell you what I'm pretty pissed about. Supposedly Elon's leaving. I don't think he is. I think he'll He's such a nuisance. He's
00:53:45
going to stay. Um, uh, apparently Mark Zuckerberg, uh, is bought a $23 million mansion in DC. So, he's here, too. I moved here, John, and they followed me
00:53:55
here. The stalkers that they are, they're all here. All these people here, and it's all bad, the ones I liked are
00:54:02
not here. The bad ones are. If America is going to go from having a democracy to a court, you got to be near the
00:54:07
court. That's true. I get it. I get it. Honestly, although $23 million seems cheap for a house in like one of the big
00:54:13
ones, but um he's he was supposedly lobbying Trump to avoid the antitrust trial. I'm not so sure that's going to
00:54:19
work. Um because ultimately, as as dislikable as uh Elon has become, Mark Zuckerberg has always been dislikable. And I think polls, you know, all those polls show they still don't like him at
00:54:30
the White House. They still they still don't like him. But anyway, he's here. I'm so excited to see him at brunch or
00:54:36
over over drinks at Cathy Milana. Do these guys Does he Do these people leave their Do they do they do they leave the
00:54:42
compound? No. Are they Are you going to see them at the restaurants? They just don't leave their houses, right? They're not going to leave their house. Not going to do anything. I mean, unless
00:54:48
there's some MMA fighting or something happening, he'll not be going anywhere. But we'll see. I just don't want them
00:54:54
here. I'd like them to leave. You know, I I already I'm not thrilled to be here, but here I am. And I actually live here.
00:55:00
You're not thrilled to be there? I like it. I like it. I like it. You should try LA. I love LA. I love California. I
00:55:06
cannot get my wife to move us back to California. I love California. Oh, let's let me put me in. Put me into this debate. Put me in the case. I really
00:55:13
want to be part of that. I like I had like I have this beautiful new studio you're seeing behind me. I like DC very much. It's very lovely. And you've spent
00:55:19
a lot of time here. I love DC. Um but I really miss California so much. That's where you live, right? Los Angeles. I
00:55:25
love Los Angeles. It's so beautiful. Um despite all the problems you've been having lately, it's still I was just in
00:55:31
San Francisco. It was gorgeous. It's wonderful. So anyway, um I will not go on about that. John, one thing before we
00:55:37
go, is there something you're watching or reading that you love lately? I mean, everyone's talking about White Lotus obviously or Severance. Is there
00:55:43
anything else? I'll tell you, I've gone back to the beginning of Real Housewives of New York. Oh, and it is a joy. Look,
00:55:53
when the world watching it, okay, I'm starting from I never watched it before. Oh. So, I'm going back to the very first
00:55:58
season of Real Housewives of New York. I have been resistant, I think, from a kind of snoodiness to Real Housewives for years. I'm I've always said to I don't like the reality shows. I like
00:56:10
compet competitive reality shows, but I don't like the truth. Bravo. Right. And in hindsight, that was I was hurting my
00:56:16
own viewing. Yeah, the Real Housewives are incredible. And I do believe it is hard to understand Trump, right? People call up talk about him being a reality show because of The Apprentice, but that
00:56:27
was a competitive show. You really need to understand Real Housewives. Now that I see it, it is a great way to
00:56:33
understand how Trump operates. Yeah. Uh and the way uh these women use conflict to draw attention to themselves. Oh, all right. You love it. It's a joy. That's interesting. So, go watch that. I'm
00:56:47
going to get the recommendation. Hax is about to come back and I love Jean Smart and Hannah Bender and Bender. Yeah,
00:56:54
she's they're amazing. It looks hysterical and I think they're the best pair of like speaking of of conflict,
00:57:00
the two the most the most fantastic pair uh that I never expected. So, I'm very excited for that to come back online. Anyway, uh okay, that's the show. Uh thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure
00:57:11
to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week with more. And Scott will be back from his
00:57:16
college tour. Uh just so you know, he he hung out with my son and his frat yesterday. And I can't wait to hear that story. Um, but thank you so much, John. You can hear John on Podsafe America and
00:57:29
Love It or Leave It every week wherever you listen to podcasts. They're wonderful podcasts. Uh, I will read us
00:57:35
out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neon. Uh, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andot engineered this episode. Jim
00:57:42
McKill edited this video. Nishot Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the
00:57:48
show wherever you listen to podcast. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You subscribe to the magazine at
00:57:55
nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And John, thank you so
00:58:02
much. Thank you.