00:00:00
vice president kamla Harris is moving into the next phase of her campaign with the Democratic National Convention now
00:00:04
in the rearview mirror the Harris campaign said over the weekend and now raised $540 million since launching last
00:00:11
month with 82 million coming during the convention nearly a third of those donations from the conven came from
00:00:16
firsttime contributors um I wanted I I I started with the idea of joy that the Harris
00:00:22
campaign and Democrats are leaning into heavily uh we heard it mentioned in a number of convention speeches last week
00:00:27
talk a little bit about it what do you think about the politics of Joy you've written in the past about the power of
00:00:32
collective effervescence which is kind of a cooler way to say it but joy is an easier word three just three letters
00:00:38
essentially group happiness that was that was especially powerful postco can you talk a little bit about this yeah I
00:00:44
think the sociologist jhe first read about Collective effervescence is that sense of energy and purpose you get in a
00:00:50
group when you have a common goal together and I do think that's what the comma Harris campaign has created for a
00:00:55
lot of people who you know either thought Biden was too old or just weren't energized by his candidacy at
00:01:02
the same time you don't you don't want to be paana as a leader um you want people to to understand that you
00:01:09
recognize the pain and the hardship they're facing and that's why I would frame this much more as hope than Joy I
00:01:14
think Joy is about the was taken by Obama but go ahead well you you could say that but I I think in analyzing it
00:01:22
right what we're really talking about is energy people have around a possible future mhm not about the present
00:01:28
nobody's feeling Joy um around this if you know if Trump wins so I think that you know the fact that it's
00:01:35
forward-looking means it really is hope not Joy um I think it's anticipatory I think it's excitement about what's to
00:01:41
come and I do think that energizes people to vote and I think you know we we have had a a long political I guess
00:01:50
streak of you know of politicians bashing and trashing each other but I don't want to assume it always has to be
00:01:56
that way I I look for example at the campaign that holl Thomas daughter ran in Iceland for president recently where
00:02:03
she won refusing to attack her opponents running a campaign based on curiosity and hope and enthusiasm and people
00:02:11
resonated with that now Iceland is a tiny country right but I I wouldn't assume that America which is often
00:02:19
regarded as the most enthusiastic country on Earth um couldn't operate that way too and I guess I guess we'll
00:02:25
find out as people begin to turn out at the the polls what do you think Cara uh you know I think think I think it work I
00:02:30
think it's fine I don't know why they have to crap all over Joy it's like they're like a skunk at a garden party
00:02:35
it's like let them have it for a minute I mean it worked for Obama it worked for
00:02:39
Clinton it works it works it worked for Reagan right Reagan was the original morning in America guy right it's and he
00:02:45
was talking about the future I think what um I think she has pretty definitely talked about problems right
00:02:52
she just doesn't do them with a sense of shrug shoulders right like let's goward
00:02:58
dread dread right it's all I think the Biden campaign I was talking to someone in uh again this weekend and when they
00:03:05
go democracy is on the ballot I'm like oh no really I have to save democracy you know you I think it it it's
00:03:11
overwhelming and and it makes you grief stricken ironically as dark as Trump was
00:03:16
in 2016 I alone can fix this was the overwhelming message that a lot of people heard so that was a good it was a strong
00:03:24
man I can help you I can I'm big daddy kind of thing can how does you Channel it into strategy and policy um what are
00:03:32
some effective leadership qualities positive and negative you're seeing from both of them from KLA Harris and Trump
00:03:38
um you were posting about the study about uh looking at the negative impact of rudess and disrespect on team
00:03:44
performance in other fields that's all he's got at this point he he hasn't been able to Pivot to anything hopeful in any
00:03:51
fashion talk a little bit about negative qual qualities you're seeing for both of
00:03:55
them and positive well I think I think one of the things that the the Trump campaign was doing well was attacking
00:04:02
Biden on age and they did not it doesn't seem like they had much of a backup strategy once Harris took over and they
00:04:08
they seem to be scrambling quite a bit now um if I were them I would I would probably take a little bit of ownership
00:04:14
over weird and say look you know America has always been weird um weird has been
00:04:19
a driver of innovation has been you know a major source of fuel for disruption and I I think there might be a missed
00:04:25
opportunity there as a as opposed to trying to prove no no no we're normal yeah anyone who says they're not weird
00:04:31
is weird that's the thing that's I anyone who's been to high school knows that one right knows that trick um so
00:04:36
you would take over weird they can't they seem perpetually offended by it it seems to have hit quite effectively yeah
00:04:43
which which is I think surprising in some ways I wonder if part of the reason it works is because it's not as heavy as
00:04:49
the other attacks that have been tried right um you know everybody's exhausted by the Felon rapist you know immoral
00:04:57
like oh this is just so much to think about and it's also just not persuasive to people who are undecided or
00:05:03
independent because if they thought that they would have already decided not to vote for him right right so I think
00:05:09
there's a missed opportunity there what does the word why does that an effective
00:05:13
word over deplorables seem seem delst and rude and yeah it's also just I think it's not as um it's not as
00:05:21
judgmental um I think that we all know weird people that we accept M so it's a way of of saying hey you're not like us
00:05:30
without saying you know you're less than us right got that so one of the things she did I thought effectively it seemed
00:05:35
to work when she was listing a bunch of things they were doing and then she's like they're out of their damn Minds the
00:05:41
way she talked how talk about that that was effective I think maybe it wasn't but I felt it was what did you think was
00:05:47
effective about that I'm curious cuz I because I've heard regular people say it like when someone you're at work and
00:05:52
your boss does something and you're like they're out of their damn mind like you
00:05:55
can feel everybody feels good about talking like it doesn't feel really rude yeah it it so it sounds like in part
00:06:03
it's validating what some people are already feeling as and I think it's also at some
00:06:10
level I I don't know I don't know how far I would go with this Cara but part of me hears that language and thinks
00:06:18
okay we're tired of all of this trying to reason through and rationalize the you know the appeal of trump right how
00:06:27
many articles were written in 2016 and 2017 well actually you know it's it's not X Y
00:06:33
or Z that you hate it's it's really you know people are feeling you know that economic precarity and you know they
00:06:41
feel seen by Trump it's like no some of this is just ridiculous and unacceptable
00:06:46
let's not legitimate it right yeah so what is the what is her best quality and the one you think is problematic for her
00:06:53
possibly problem and and the same with him okay so I think her best quality right now um is momentum mhm freshh
00:07:02
energy uh I think that's that's what we're all riding on mhm uh I think her her biggest challenge is a lot of people
00:07:09
don't think they know what she stands for they're either proxying Biden's policies as hers or they're saying I I
00:07:15
don't really know what her principles are I don't know what she's going to try to implement yeah I call it comml
00:07:20
curious in a positive way that's a great way to frame it yeah um I I do think she
00:07:25
handled that really effectively in Her speech when she talked about Israel's right to exist but also how you know
00:07:32
some of the Israeli government actions in you know in Gaza were unacceptable and how Palestine has a right to
00:07:39
self-determination too I thought she walked that line very effectively in a way that frankly very few people have
00:07:44
done it was you know I I took I looked at and each sentence was strong right it was so it felt like everybody was
00:07:51
addressed but it didn't feel like she was modulating wimpy right that that's how I took it too and I I think those
00:07:59
kinds of messages will probably be helpful in the next two months I I probably wouldn't debate Trump at this
00:08:04
point I think oh well he might not he's trying yeah he it looks like he's waffling but I don't see a lot of upside
00:08:10
for her do you I do I do CU he she could get him to say something terrible like one more terrible thing I mean how how
00:08:17
many more do we need though I think she could get him to say something very terrible do you really think okay let's
00:08:23
assume she could do it yeah do you really think there's anything he could say at this point that would
00:08:30
hurt his candidacy there are several words he could say about her and about people of color yes everyone's talked
00:08:37
about him saying those words but him saying them in a public setting is a very different situation it's super ugly
00:08:43
it's like B bu Conor if if you could get him into a Bull Connor moment that would
00:08:48
be effective if he could say something terrible about women not nasty woman something worse and he's called her
00:08:56
worse names yeah you could yes there are words and you think her ability to think
00:09:01
on her feet and her prosecutor experience will allow her to De bait him in a way that other people have tried
00:09:06
and failed not so much well she's good at it that's that she has the skills certainly but I think the her very being
00:09:12
offends him I do think what was interesting to me recently is he keeps attacking walls who doesn't matter even
00:09:19
though he's totally appealing but he never attacks her like he attacks walls and I'm like oh you think you're running
00:09:25
against walls it doesn't matter like he's just an extra added cherry on the top of this happy Fest right he's not
00:09:32
like he matters but he doesn't matter kind of thing yeah I I think part of his strategy is he throws a lot of things
00:09:38
against the wall to see what sticks and walls is a new Target yeah right KLA Harris is not entirely new he's he's
00:09:45
been dealing with her over the course of the Biden presidency okay go to his negatives and positives very quickly
00:09:52
yeah well look I think one thing that he's doing effectively and it it bothers me to my core that this is effective is
00:09:57
he's continuing to delegitimate all the sources of credibility that would call into question his competence and his
00:10:03
character right so you can't trust the media they fake news it has created I think some lingering questions in the
00:10:09
minds of people who would otherwise in a different era have said you know what we
00:10:13
got to move on this guy is not qualified to lead and what about negative qualities I
00:10:19
think on the negative side beyond what we've already talked about I think he's he seems to be even more undisciplined
00:10:25
than he was before um there isn't a semblance of his strategy right now and for somebody who's as effective at
00:10:31
communicating on the fly as he is you would expect a little bit more focus and not rambling well one of the things
00:10:36
could be age and it's interesting that the media is not covering his obvious cognitive deficits now you wrote about
00:10:42
President Biden a column in New York Times back in July shortly before he stepped aside you talked about how there
00:10:47
was a group think happening with no one being honest about the reality of the situation um this is pretty common in
00:10:53
politics and business particularly with a powerful controlling leader um what how do you first of all what do you see
00:11:00
as the best way to communicate get people to see TR or reality and tell me why you decided to write that I thought
00:11:05
I was surprised and also thought it was terrific oh thank you why were you surprised uh because you don't seem to
00:11:11
go you're not a limb goer you know what I mean like I can see George Clooney doing it but although I was inspired by
00:11:16
George cloney actually I was like huh I was too this is going to cost you right like and and calling him we we gotten
00:11:23
Scott and I got in trouble for saying he should step aside a lot um so talk a little bit about why you did that and
00:11:29
what the best way to get out of group think happening I just thought it was an interesting take on what was happening
00:11:34
there all right yeah I'll start with a why so I don't think about this from a cost benefit perspective I think about
00:11:39
it more in terms of is is this an issue where I have unique expertise to bring to the table right and so I I don't
00:11:46
weigh in on a lot of politics because I don't I don't think it's a social scientist I'm adding value there but in
00:11:52
this case you know he's making a leadership decision yeah and I'm watching him first of all fall in the
00:11:57
escalation of commitment trap where he's throwing good money after bad and digging his heels in when he should be
00:12:03
doing a a cleare eyed analysis of what are my odds of winning and how much am I hurting the Congressional races down the
00:12:10
ticket which took way too long to happen in my view and so I thought okay there's
00:12:14
an analysis waiting to be done there that actually brings you know evidence from organizational psychology to the
00:12:18
table I have something to say here and nobody else is talking about it and then you know in terms of how to get out of
00:12:25
that kind of situation um I think that unfortunately what you need is you know a group of
00:12:31
people who are committed to principles larger than you know just accusing the leader so you know if I'm if I'm talking
00:12:37
to team Biden you know back in July the first conversation I'm having with them is is your goal to make Biden feel good
00:12:45
about you and solidify that relationship or is your goal for Trump to lose the election and if you focus on that latter
00:12:52
goal it becomes a lot easier to be candid right I think too many people are doing the political calculus and this is
00:12:58
what You' see in the research group think is people ask well you know is this going to help me or hurt me and
00:13:04
what you want is not a logic of consequences as Jim March first put it but a logic of appropriateness of what
00:13:10
should a person like me do in a situation like this what's the right thing to do and there's no question
00:13:14
there the right thing to do is to challenge him and get him to recognize the very real possibility that he's he's
00:13:21
basically driving a sinking ship so only one person did that very effectively Nancy Pelosi and she said it she goes my
00:13:28
goal is to defeat Trump and unfortunately our relationship is the you know the collateral damage
00:13:35
essentially you had a great conversation with Nancy Pelosi about that I think she
00:13:39
was the only person who did it effectively publicly I I heard from a bunch of people who had private conversations
00:13:46
with Biden I even got one note from somebody who said I used your article as a template for how to talk to him I said
00:13:52
you could have just called me we know each other yeah but they wouldn't have called me and I had to write to them in
00:13:59
the pages of the New York Times which was a hot moment for me but I guess you've experienced that many times many
00:14:04
times how how how do you get a leader to do that because you know here you are you finally got to the presidency after
00:14:10
all these years you do have cognitive issues right you're you're like stubborn as a personality before you were older
00:14:17
um and it only it only you know calcifies I think in people's their personalities calcify essentially yeah
00:14:24
my my impression from talking to people who were close to Biden around this was that the Legacy conversation was
00:14:30
effective that getting him to think about how he wanted to be remembered and also following the footsteps of George
00:14:35
Washington who walked away from Power um not wanting to take that third term when
00:14:40
the people around him were encouraging him to do it I think that precedent was very powerful I think you know a lot of
00:14:46
people focused on the loss message which was not effective um he did not want to
00:14:50
believe that he was not the best person to beat Trump and so reframing that is a
00:14:54
gain and and this comes right out of the evidence on how to get people to deescalate their commitment um was was
00:14:59
effective in in getting him to say okay there's actually upside here right I can
00:15:03
pass the torch I can solidify my legacy I can Elevate the Next Generation I can lift up a woman of color for a shot at
00:15:10
the presidency I think those arguments landed and that that is very much what we see outside of the Oval Office is if
00:15:16
you're going to have that kind of conversation with a leader in power um you you have to help them recognize that
00:15:22
they're compromised in their judgment that they're obviously going to be looking for information that convinces
00:15:27
them that they're going to win and discount anything that would lead them to lose so I would have gotten him to
00:15:33
pre-commit to say okay they they group of people I trust or there're a group of polls that I would be willing to trust
00:15:39
and if the polls you know hit a certain level then yes I will step aside right now that's difficult I was just reading
00:15:45
there was a excerpt from a new book about the Twitter takeover and a lot of it was about uh people who knew better
00:15:52
this was particularly around the blue roll out which wasn't going to work and a lot of us said this like come on um in
00:15:59
Al that knew that and continued tried to say it and then couldn't and there was all these people that how to cope with
00:16:05
the leader you know who was different one-on-one versus in a group where they had to feel dominant in a group some
00:16:12
situations are impossible correct that you can't because it's their you know it's their pop stand and so they're
00:16:17
going to do what they want it it is frustrating how much of this rests on the shoulders of a leader right to to
00:16:23
not only ask for dissenting views but to prove that they can handle the truth if
00:16:28
you have a leader that doesn't do that yeah I think you're going out on a limb there I think the first thing you could
00:16:33
do is you know is just say I'm worried that people are not going to be honest with you because they care a lot about
00:16:38
your approval and your opinion you know it has real weight around here can we do
00:16:42
an anonymous PLL and sometimes that's enough if the leader's open to it um I think to your point it's a lot easier to
00:16:49
have trust one-on-one than it is in a large group setting and so I would try to catch the leader before or afterward
00:16:55
U but easier said than done you know I think that that weak leaders shoot the messenger I think that strong leaders
00:17:02
praise the messenger but truly great leaders promote the messenger and I don't think we have enough leaders doing
00:17:08
that no not any actually in my experience I don't know anyway um it's a really interesting we'll see what
00:17:13
happens um I do think one of the things I I will say about KLA Harris having spent a lot of time with her is she
00:17:19
really does try to listen to a lot of opinions I I I I was always struck by that about her she'd always have me in
00:17:25
and say what's the worst thing here what's the you know very much like a lawyer would like what what can I get
00:17:31
hit with what can I and it wasn't so much political it was more like challenge me so I can make a better
00:17:36
argument it was interesting she's a really interesting that's encouraging yeah it was it was and I was always like
00:17:41
oh you're [ __ ] on that one you know and she welcomed it and she I didn't say she welcomed him but she she wasn't
00:17:46
pretending it wasn't true anyway um that's that's what good I think that's what good leaders do collect all kind
00:17:52
and then make a decision even if it's wrong