00:00:00
Here's a technology that is potentially
00:00:02
more dangerous than nuclear weapons. We
00:00:05
didn't let Oppenheimer start a company
00:00:06
and start selling bombs to China.
00:00:09
>> That's a good comparison.
00:00:16
>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York
00:00:18
Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast
00:00:20
Network. I'm Carara Swisser
00:00:21
>> and I'm Who am I? I'm Scott Galloway.
00:00:24
Sorry, I'm jetlagged is what I am. So,
00:00:26
um, uh, first off, I have to ask you, by
00:00:28
the way, in you've doing a lot of stuff,
00:00:30
but did you watch the enhanced games
00:00:31
last weekend?
00:00:33
>> I didn't, although I got to be honest,
00:00:34
I'm sort of here for it. I mean, I I
00:00:36
kind of had this idea to just take no
00:00:38
holds barred and let freak shows show
00:00:40
up. Uh, people are doing this to
00:00:42
themselves anyways, but I did not I did
00:00:43
not watch it. Although,
00:00:45
>> let me just say, let me for people who
00:00:46
don't know, the enhanced games is a new
00:00:48
sports event that allows athletes on
00:00:50
performance-enhancing drugs and
00:00:51
encourages them to try to break world
00:00:53
records. Events included swimming, track
00:00:55
and field, weightlifting, and strongmen.
00:00:57
The experiment calls itself a global
00:00:58
movement that unites humanity, of
00:01:00
course, is a publicly traded company.
00:01:01
Investors include Donald Trump and
00:01:03
Junior and Peter Teal. There's also a
00:01:05
German executive I've met many times
00:01:07
who's really into it. Um, there were no
00:01:10
things broken except by someone who was
00:01:11
wearing an the swimsuit that was barred,
00:01:15
this special swimsuit. I don't know. The
00:01:17
stock has gone down. I'm curious if
00:01:20
there was a fight where both of us were
00:01:22
enhanced, who do you think would win,
00:01:24
you or I?
00:01:24
>> Well, you know the answer there.
00:01:26
>> Me?
00:01:27
>> Yeah, 100%. I've never been in a fight.
00:01:30
Yeah. I'm not I'm not a violent person.
00:01:31
If someone hit me, I wouldn't know what
00:01:33
to do.
00:01:33
>> You've never been in a fight? Wow.
00:01:35
>> Never been in a fight in my life.
00:01:36
>> Neither have I, I think. Let me think.
00:01:38
That might not be true. No, I haven't.
00:01:39
No, I haven't.
00:01:41
>> No, never. you know, I was beaten up and
00:01:43
abused ex-wife, but um no, I was never
00:01:48
never been in a never been in a fight. I
00:01:50
think that I talk a lot about this that
00:01:53
I think that one of the cores to I never
00:01:57
miss a chance to to virtue signal and
00:01:59
preach, but I think one of the course
00:02:01
core principles of for men as they get
00:02:03
older is just quite frankly is emotional
00:02:04
regulation. you know, are you willing to
00:02:06
sit in discomfort and uh do you have
00:02:09
control over your your physical and
00:02:12
mental well-being?
00:02:13
>> Well, it's an impulse to punch, right?
00:02:15
It's an impulse to punch and men have it
00:02:17
much more. I have Well, let me think.
00:02:20
Saul's probably the most aggressive of
00:02:23
my sense.
00:02:24
>> So, there's no arguing that men are more
00:02:26
violent, but that doesn't mean women
00:02:28
don't engage in violence. domestic
00:02:31
violence rates in LGBTQ couples um is
00:02:35
about 25% according to the National
00:02:38
Institute for Health and according to
00:02:40
the CDC anywhere from 17 to 40% of men
00:02:43
are victims of intimate partner violence
00:02:46
depending depending on the research
00:02:48
methodology there's discrepancy between
00:02:50
whether it was a phone survey or a web
00:02:51
survey
00:02:53
and then furthermore there's only about
00:02:55
three shelters there's only three three
00:02:58
shelters across the entire US devoted to
00:03:01
male domestic violence. Um there's still
00:03:03
a lot of shame and there's a view that
00:03:04
it might be under reportported.
00:03:07
>> Mostly women suffer from this problem,
00:03:09
Scott.
00:03:09
>> Yeah, but it's true. There's there's
00:03:11
there's an assumption.
00:03:13
>> Yes, I get it. Most violence is
00:03:15
committed by men in general. In general,
00:03:18
in general, murders, blah blah
00:03:20
everything. Every statistic is largely
00:03:22
men. I It's not really It's just I I I
00:03:24
do think it's a function of gender. I do
00:03:26
think it's a function of impulse control
00:03:28
and everything else, but I'm no
00:03:30
scientist.
00:03:30
>> Testosterone and cultural norms and
00:03:32
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Manliness, this man.
00:03:35
There was a really great cover of The
00:03:37
Atlantic recently about the sort of the
00:03:39
man-hating groups and they're they're
00:03:41
always back. They're always like they're
00:03:42
back. I'm like, they're always there in
00:03:44
some weird way. Um, speaking of man, men
00:03:46
men, um, there's construction crews are
00:03:49
building the UFC fighting cage on the
00:03:51
south lawn of the White House in
00:03:52
preparation for the night of mixed
00:03:54
martial arts celebrating the 250th
00:03:56
anniversary of US independence. Over
00:03:57
4,000 spectators plan to watch from
00:03:59
inside the arena. Kind of looks like a
00:04:01
roller coaster. And uh, there's all this
00:04:04
complaining by Joe Rogan and others
00:04:06
about gnats and bugs and outside. And a
00:04:10
lot of some of the champions aren't
00:04:11
coming because it's it they don't
00:04:14
usually do it outside. Um and it creates
00:04:17
a if you're going for world, you know,
00:04:19
these these are actual competitors. If
00:04:20
you're going for titles, it's not it's
00:04:23
not a good thing to fight outside
00:04:24
apparently. Um weigh-ins will be held at
00:04:27
the Lincoln Memorial, which is I don't
00:04:29
know what to say about that, but okay,
00:04:31
fine. Fine. Fine. I I just don't know
00:04:34
what to say. I I it looks it's ridic,
00:04:37
you know, it's it feels clownish, but
00:04:40
whatever. He's the president. I don't I
00:04:41
don't know what to say. I'm not going to
00:04:43
get overly angry about it, but it seems
00:04:45
ridiculous. But I don't know how you
00:04:46
feel.
00:04:47
>> I was invited. I said no. I don't I
00:04:48
don't enjoy that stuff, and I don't need
00:04:50
to be, you know, I I think it's
00:04:52
disingenuous for me to show up and break
00:04:53
bread or or party with someone who I'm
00:04:55
constantly critical of. Uh it the event
00:04:58
itself is brilliant.
00:04:59
>> You think?
00:05:00
>> Oh gosh. there there's just an entire
00:05:02
generation of of young men and and quite
00:05:05
frankly a lot of women their mothers and
00:05:06
their sisters who in America and this
00:05:09
will trigger some people still vote for
00:05:11
who they perceive will be most
00:05:13
beneficial for their husbands and their
00:05:14
sons and young men are doing really
00:05:17
really poorly and uh if you think about
00:05:20
government
00:05:21
in the United States largely speaking
00:05:23
has been feminized if you look at the
00:05:24
events the events are basically like you
00:05:27
know like the queen was merchandising
00:05:29
and throwing them for Government events
00:05:31
are very
00:05:33
feminine for lack of a better word.
00:05:34
>> Wait a minute. Come on, Scott. Today
00:05:36
you're very anti-women today. I'm not
00:05:38
anti-woman. I don't think feminine is a
00:05:39
bad thing. I'm just calling it
00:05:41
government things are feminine.
00:05:42
>> Oh, go to anything at the White House.
00:05:44
It feels like it feels like it's been
00:05:46
designed. Oh, 100%. They're very
00:05:50
>> They're very proper, gentle. They're
00:05:53
very feminine. And by the way, that
00:05:54
>> men can be gentle. I don't I don't think
00:05:57
that men can
00:05:58
>> Yes, men can demonstrate wonderful
00:05:59
feminine attributes.
00:06:00
>> You mean like metal giving is is a
00:06:02
feminine activity or
00:06:04
>> I would describe metal giving, but the
00:06:06
the event
00:06:06
>> a lot of metal giving at the White
00:06:08
House.
00:06:08
>> Government events and ceremonies tend to
00:06:10
be very what people would consider I
00:06:13
think somewhat more um well they're not
00:06:16
a UFC fight. They're not a competition.
00:06:18
>> UFC fight is way even like comedy. The
00:06:21
White House the White House dinner comes
00:06:23
the closest to sort of something
00:06:24
stepping out of what is seen as overly
00:06:27
planned, nurturing, appropriate. Yeah, I
00:06:30
think the events are very kind of very
00:06:32
feminine. And what is what are these
00:06:34
guys doing? They're throwing a UFC
00:06:36
fight. And it's kind of I think I you're
00:06:39
going to have they're going to have huge
00:06:40
viewership.
00:06:42
It says to Trump uh rein reaffirms his
00:06:46
his view of one of the reasons he won
00:06:48
the election and that is like I'm a
00:06:50
man's man. I see men. I appreciate quote
00:06:54
for lack of a better term masculinity.
00:06:55
Unfortunately, it's a [ __ ] up weird
00:06:58
>> performative dominant form of
00:06:59
masculinity,
00:07:00
>> but it's a brilliant marketing strategy.
00:07:03
Smart. I
00:07:03
>> I'm not I don't I think it sometimes
00:07:05
works. Like let me give an example of
00:07:07
this attempt to turn James Telerico like
00:07:10
the Steven Miller who is literally the
00:07:12
most weak weaklooking person you've ever
00:07:15
seen um is uh calling you know he and
00:07:18
others are calling because they're
00:07:19
terrified of Telerico. So they're
00:07:21
pulling out the anti-trans stuff
00:07:23
immediately saying the first trans
00:07:25
senator he doesn't know how to eat
00:07:27
barbecue. Is that a to Ted Cruz? Another
00:07:30
like someone I could easily beat in an
00:07:32
in a fight with the tofu barbecue. Uh uh
00:07:36
the idea of soy boy. I mean I this is
00:07:39
not manly in any way. This is like this
00:07:42
I don't and I don't think it works as
00:07:43
much anymore with people. Um it's do
00:07:46
it's deeply insulting. It it might work
00:07:48
in Texas. I hate to say it. I think they
00:07:50
the Telerico people should take this
00:07:52
very seriously because Kla Harris didn't
00:07:55
with the trans stuff that worked really
00:07:57
well in the election and it might work
00:07:59
in Texas, but they're trying to, you
00:08:00
know, paint him as gay. I think that's
00:08:02
what they're where's the girlfriend?
00:08:04
That's what they're uh trans. Is she he
00:08:06
trans? He's a soy boy. You know, this is
00:08:09
all like and what I think about it's so
00:08:12
grotesque because I'm like these are all
00:08:14
men over 50 or whatever. I don't I mean
00:08:17
Steven Miller looks over 50 even though
00:08:19
he's younger. Um but this is this like
00:08:22
name calling bullying [ __ ] that is
00:08:26
not part of being a man. Any men I know
00:08:28
that I think are decent men. It's fine
00:08:30
if people want to do this. I when I was
00:08:32
a kid I went to fights with my
00:08:33
grandfather and went to wrestling
00:08:35
matches. He was a promoter. Um and he
00:08:37
loved it. Um so I see the the the
00:08:40
entertainment and everything else in it.
00:08:42
But the the the the the soy boy trans
00:08:46
thing that they're pushing on Telerico
00:08:49
is so so ugly and toxic. And
00:08:52
unfortunately, it does work at some
00:08:54
point. I don't know if you think it'll
00:08:56
work in Texas, but it might. It
00:08:57
certainly could.
00:08:58
>> Yeah. I think I think there's a a fairly
00:09:00
large distinction between a sanctioned
00:09:02
sport where it's a lot of men in top
00:09:04
physical shape. Um I don't like it. I
00:09:07
don't enjoy watching it, but I I I think
00:09:09
that that is a legitimate sport. It's a
00:09:11
huge sport. It's I think arguably one of
00:09:12
the most successful sports of the last
00:09:14
several decades. It's a well-run sport.
00:09:17
Um creates a lot of economic value for
00:09:19
many of the fighters. So I, you know, I
00:09:21
I think you can,
00:09:23
I think in a bipartisan way, you can say
00:09:25
that the UFC serves a purpose and is
00:09:27
successful.
00:09:29
That the the ugliness around Taler Rico
00:09:31
is not only that one, it's not true, but
00:09:35
two, to assume that leving an accusation
00:09:38
that someone is gay or trans is supposed
00:09:40
to be negative. It trains young people
00:09:43
are people that if you call someone
00:09:44
that, your opponent doesn't call you
00:09:46
something unless they're trying to say
00:09:47
to the world that's a negative,
00:09:48
>> right? Absolutely. No. No, no, 100%.
00:09:51
>> And I I hope at some point people
00:09:54
regurgitate on things like that and say
00:09:57
quite frankly it's you know someone we
00:10:00
used to call in college you used to call
00:10:02
people [ __ ]
00:10:03
>> Mhm. Yep. Dikes and [ __ ] Yep. I got it.
00:10:06
>> To be gay is to be bad. It's an insult.
00:10:09
And at some point some people someone
00:10:11
says yeah and or what it's like people
00:10:16
online call me a Zionist. And I write
00:10:18
respond, "Proud Zionist." I mean, I just
00:10:21
at some point people are going to
00:10:22
realize going after people's sexual
00:10:24
orientation just says more about you
00:10:26
than it says about them.
00:10:27
>> It does. It's But it's it's a tactic.
00:10:29
They're trying to drum that in in that
00:10:31
race. And unfortunately, it might work
00:10:32
in Texas.
00:10:32
>> Well, it's an indictment on Texas that
00:10:34
these people have done the research and
00:10:36
and decided that it works.
00:10:37
>> Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.
00:10:39
>> So, I I I hope he responds. I will say
00:10:42
this that
00:10:42
>> I'm not sure what the response is.
00:10:43
>> In defense Well, I'm not gay. In the
00:10:45
fence of James Toller Rico, he and I
00:10:46
follow many of the same people on
00:10:48
Instagram. And it's not thought leaders,
00:10:49
Cara.
00:10:50
>> Yes, I know.
00:10:52
>> It's some scorching hot young ladies who
00:10:54
make their living with a
00:10:56
>> with a with a webcam. Um,
00:10:57
>> they just they did it. They also trying
00:10:59
to do it to Andy Basher. They obviously
00:11:01
Betto everything. You know, it's a it's
00:11:03
to me it's mean at the end misogynistic.
00:11:06
And speaking of that, the Justice
00:11:08
Department has opened a criminal
00:11:09
investigation.
00:11:11
Of course, this all leads to the same
00:11:13
thing. The Justice Department has opened
00:11:14
a criminal investigation into Eugene
00:11:16
Carol, the former magazine writer who
00:11:18
won two civil lawsuits against Trump
00:11:20
totaling, you know, close to $90 million
00:11:23
in payments tied to sexual abuse and
00:11:25
defamation. The DOJ pro probe is
00:11:28
reportedly focused on whether Carol
00:11:29
committed perjury and testimony.
00:11:30
Typical, this is what they're doing to
00:11:32
whether it's to Leticia James or whoever
00:11:34
they're trying to go at. Um,
00:11:36
specifically, Carol saying she hadn't
00:11:37
received outside funding for her legal
00:11:39
bills. Her lawyers later said Reed
00:11:40
Hoffman had contributed. This is the
00:11:42
latest in a series of DOJ probes
00:11:44
targeting Trump's opponents and critics
00:11:46
like James Comey, Leticia James, and
00:11:47
others. Though none of these
00:11:49
investigations have led to convictions.
00:11:50
In fact, they get laughed out of court.
00:11:52
Um, I spoke to Egene Carol for an
00:11:54
episode of On in July 2025. She talked
00:11:57
about the threats she's received and why
00:11:59
she has no fear. Let's listen.
00:12:00
>> It's stupid to be afraid. Why live your
00:12:02
life that way? I've been here 81 years
00:12:05
and I'm not going to waste the last of
00:12:06
it worrying about that guy in marmalade
00:12:09
colored makeup. It makes no sense. So
00:12:13
that's what I'm going to do.
00:12:14
>> So what do you think about this? This
00:12:16
talk about misogyny and getting, you
00:12:17
know, she's won the cases against him
00:12:19
and he's trying not to pay them and he's
00:12:21
doing everything possible to try not to
00:12:23
pay them. And this is the latest Perry
00:12:26
using the Justice Department to carry
00:12:28
out his toxic misogynistic efforts.
00:12:31
>> I think it comes down to this. So one,
00:12:33
if she did say something that wasn't
00:12:35
true under oath, that's real. Um, and
00:12:37
they're claiming that she didn't
00:12:39
acknowledge that she was getting help
00:12:40
with her legal bills. I don't know to
00:12:43
the extent though in a case like that
00:12:44
that is grounds for revisiting a case
00:12:46
when it doesn't matter when it doesn't
00:12:47
have anything to do with the actual
00:12:49
crime she's accusing the president of.
00:12:51
What is consistent here is the
00:12:53
weaponization of the DOJ to go after his
00:12:55
political enemies.
00:12:57
>> So, this is just another example of the
00:13:00
fact that we don't have a government
00:13:01
that's meant to protect the people. It's
00:13:03
now there to protect the president. I
00:13:06
mean, ju just to keep in mind, folks,
00:13:08
this was a jury of his peers who heard
00:13:11
heard a ton of evidence and they said,
00:13:13
"Well, it was in liberal New York."
00:13:15
Well, okay, New York, if you had nine
00:13:17
jurors, five are probably Democrats, but
00:13:19
four Republicans and two to mature a
00:13:22
conviction, all nine have to agree. So,
00:13:26
so this was a you know this was there's
00:13:29
a reason that when someone is usually
00:13:32
convicted of a crime the public used to
00:13:34
come together and say this person is
00:13:36
guilty and you know should be
00:13:38
disqualified or you know we keep it
00:13:41
every time this stuff happened we keep
00:13:42
we kept thinking that's it. over and it
00:13:46
wasn't. But it's just uh I do think it's
00:13:50
important to have a a legal scholar to
00:13:52
say in most cases with this type of
00:13:55
infraction if in fact she and she did.
00:13:57
She did not acknowledge that she was
00:13:59
having her legal
00:13:59
>> bill. Depends on when she was paid.
00:14:01
They're going to have to investigate
00:14:02
that. But still, they're just they're
00:14:03
just grabbing its straws here is what
00:14:05
they're doing. That's what they're
00:14:06
trying to do to find some way to impugn
00:14:08
her and so he doesn't have to pay that
00:14:10
money. It's all the same. It's all about
00:14:11
money.
00:14:12
>> I don't even think it's about the money.
00:14:13
I think it's about overturning a
00:14:14
conviction of a perceived enemy and
00:14:16
going after her.
00:14:18
>> I think the guy the guy's made billions
00:14:20
of dollars illegally on crypto. I think
00:14:22
is
00:14:23
>> he still doesn't want to pay. He's a
00:14:24
cheap bastard. He still doesn't want to
00:14:26
pay.
00:14:27
>> I'm personally I'm surprised they did
00:14:28
this. I would have thought they would. I
00:14:30
think this just brings it up again. I
00:14:31
would have thought they would want it to
00:14:32
fade into the distance.
00:14:33
>> He doesn't care. He doesn't care.
00:14:34
Anyway, Eugene, uh we hope this goes
00:14:37
away, but it's such a it's such a
00:14:38
[ __ ] nuisance. It's such a ridiculous
00:14:40
nuisance. Anyway, uh let's go on a quick
00:14:42
break. When we come back, Pope Leo's
00:14:44
warning about AI. I'm very excited to
00:14:47
talk about this.
00:14:49
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00:15:37
all 50 states. WGOI is a registered
00:15:39
trademark of Nova Nordisk as to get
00:15:41
started and learn more including
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00:15:45
clinical study information restrictions,
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visit hymns.com.
00:15:49
>> Scott, we're back and we're going to
00:15:50
start off with our next topic with a
00:15:52
question from a listener.
00:15:53
>> Hi Cara and Scott, my name is Bridget
00:15:55
and I'm calling from Oakland. I'm asking
00:15:58
as a Catholic Buddhist pivotarian. I was
00:16:02
so delighted to hear that Pope Bob, also
00:16:04
known as Pope Leo I 14th, delivered his
00:16:08
first encyclical, which was about AI,
00:16:11
and he was speaking truth to power from
00:16:14
a place of power, which is pretty rare.
00:16:16
Have either of you read it? And if so,
00:16:20
what do you think? Do you think it can
00:16:22
move the needle towards putting guard
00:16:24
rails up for this juggernaut that's
00:16:26
really careening off the road already?
00:16:29
Or maybe even rein in those [ __ ]
00:16:32
who are mindlessly amping it up for
00:16:34
their own self-serving profits. Thanks
00:16:37
for all the humor and wisdom you've
00:16:39
provided over the years. And keep it up.
00:16:42
Haha. Yep. I just set Prof up for a dick
00:16:46
joke.
00:16:48
I love Bridget. I love our listeners.
00:16:50
Pivotarian. Let's start a religion.
00:16:54
>> That would be so good. Thank you,
00:16:55
Bridget. That was a great question. We
00:16:56
love your sassiness. That's the kind of
00:16:58
listeners we love. Um, so to catch
00:17:01
people up, Pope Leo released his first
00:17:03
encyclical uh this week, a 4200word
00:17:05
letter to all about AI titled
00:17:08
Magnificent Humanity. Magnifous. I can't
00:17:10
say it in Latin, but it's Magnificent
00:17:12
Humanity. The Pope acknowledged that
00:17:14
artificial intelligence can be a
00:17:15
valuable tool. did not trash it, but
00:17:17
also warned the Aoras could become a new
00:17:19
Tower of Babel. Um, he shared some
00:17:21
strong words about what needs to happen
00:17:23
next. Let's listen to him himself talk
00:17:26
about it.
00:17:27
>> Artificial intelligence needs to be
00:17:30
disarmed.
00:17:32
The word is strong, I know, but
00:17:35
deliberately chosen because this moment
00:17:37
needs words capable of attracting
00:17:39
attention, awakening consciences,
00:17:42
and indicating paths forward for
00:17:45
humanity.
00:17:47
>> Some of the specific things the Pope is
00:17:48
calling for, government regulation of
00:17:50
private companies, driving AI
00:17:52
development seems normal, protecting
00:17:53
children from violent sexual or fake
00:17:55
information generated by AI. Excellent
00:17:57
suggestion. safeguards to make sure
00:17:59
humans are responsible for all decisions
00:18:01
tied to the use of weapons. Again, a
00:18:03
great thing. He also didn't uh shy away
00:18:05
from talking about people at the helm of
00:18:07
AI. That was really the focus is who's
00:18:09
running it. In the abstract, technology
00:18:11
in and of itself is not a solution to
00:18:13
humanity's problems, just it is not
00:18:15
inherently evil. In practice, however,
00:18:17
technology is never neutral because it
00:18:19
takes on the characteristics of those
00:18:21
who devise, finance, regulate, and use
00:18:24
it. Uh some big tech folks are on board
00:18:27
here. Anthropic co-founder Christopher
00:18:29
Ola uh joined the Pope at the Vatican as
00:18:32
the encyclical was presented, but
00:18:34
reactions from DC and Silicon Valley
00:18:35
have been mixed. Vice President J. Dance
00:18:37
called the Pope's warning profound. That
00:18:39
was interesting, but Interior Secretary
00:18:41
Doug Bergam told Fox News, "I didn't
00:18:42
know what tech editorializing was part
00:18:44
of the role being a pope." Well, it is,
00:18:46
Doug. It's certainly not part of of your
00:18:48
role as interior secretary. Uh David
00:18:51
Saxs wrote, "The Pope rightly warns that
00:18:52
AI must serve human dignity, not become
00:18:54
a tool of domination of exclusion."
00:18:56
Well, someone who dominates and excludes
00:18:58
was a nice thing to hear. But it goes
00:19:00
on, if we hand go, of course he goes on,
00:19:02
if we hand the government sweeping power
00:19:03
over AI development in the name of
00:19:05
safety, how do we prevent it from being
00:19:06
used to censor surveil or control
00:19:08
citizens? Honestly, this guy is so
00:19:10
hypocritical. Anyway, um what did you
00:19:13
think of the take? And I think he's been
00:19:15
listening to Pivot or a lot of stuff we
00:19:17
talked about for years. I love Pope Bill
00:19:19
being on team on this team, but um
00:19:23
thoughts on this? Well, we talk a lot
00:19:25
about the actions of the administration
00:19:26
and different things that have just been
00:19:28
really bad for brand us, whether it was
00:19:30
the insurrection or
00:19:33
um you know, cutting off USA, there's
00:19:35
just been so many poor decisions that
00:19:37
have really hurt our brand. I actually
00:19:38
think the best thing or one of the best
00:19:40
things that's happened for the US brand
00:19:43
you to a certain extent AI and just the
00:19:45
economic boom out here and the fact that
00:19:46
we the most seinal technology in a long
00:19:48
time in terms of share creation and what
00:19:50
might have an impact on the world is
00:19:51
just owned and dominated by the US
00:19:53
that's very good for our brand. Another
00:19:54
thing that's been great for our brand is
00:19:56
is the is Pope Leo. He's just incredibly
00:20:00
articulate. He comes across as measured,
00:20:02
brave, connects real world issues with
00:20:04
spiritual issues and issues of dignity,
00:20:07
and he's American. He went to Villanova.
00:20:09
>> Yeah, that voice. Yeah, Chicago. He's
00:20:11
got such a Chicago accent. I keep
00:20:14
wanting to go the Bears.
00:20:16
>> Yeah. Right.
00:20:16
>> Yeah.
00:20:17
>> Um but just his comments, if you were
00:20:19
just to distill his comments that were
00:20:21
really powerful, he believes that AI
00:20:23
should serve humanity, not replace it.
00:20:26
Uh the biggest danger is the
00:20:28
concentration of power. He's clearly
00:20:30
he's talking a lot about income
00:20:31
inequality and he's he's skeptical of a
00:20:35
small number of companies controlling
00:20:36
the infrastructure of intelligence. Um
00:20:39
and he wants he thinks AI could amplify
00:20:41
inequality and create talked about a new
00:20:45
oligarchy where private firms wield
00:20:47
enormous influence over truth, labor,
00:20:49
and governments. I would argue that, you
00:20:51
know, the cat's already out of the bag
00:20:53
there.
00:20:54
One of the more controversial things or
00:20:56
interesting things I should say is you
00:20:57
said AI is not neutral that the
00:21:01
algorithms
00:21:02
encode the values of the creators not
00:21:05
some sort of neutral view on
00:21:07
>> of different views of humanity which I'm
00:21:09
not sure I actually think in a weird way
00:21:11
why social media has polarized us. I
00:21:13
think that because
00:21:15
>> I think AI is different. I think it's
00:21:18
more I do think from a viewpoint and
00:21:19
ideology standpoint it's more moderating
00:21:22
uh and sometimes it comes across as
00:21:24
quite politically correct. I think he
00:21:26
also talked about job displacement being
00:21:27
a real moral issue. Uh autonomous
00:21:30
weapons terrify him. He called for it to
00:21:33
be disarmed and worried about weapon
00:21:34
systems operating beyond meaningful
00:21:36
human control. And then he talked about
00:21:38
human connection. The thing I love, you
00:21:40
know, I like the softer stuff, human
00:21:41
connection mattering more than
00:21:43
>> synthetic intimacy. Um,
00:21:45
>> and then, and this is the thing I think
00:21:48
if if you were going to try and
00:21:50
translate this into some sort of
00:21:51
legislation, and we're not focused
00:21:53
enough on this, is that uh children are
00:21:57
are the most vulnerable. And I was just
00:21:59
thinking about,
00:22:02
you know, think about when you learned
00:22:03
to to write and how difficult it was.
00:22:06
Like I know you were on your school
00:22:07
newspaper.
00:22:08
>> Claire's doing it right. Yeah, I was.
00:22:09
But Claire's doing it right now. It's
00:22:10
really interesting to watch. Yeah. I got
00:22:13
I got a in my senior year of high
00:22:14
school, I got a C in English. I had a
00:22:16
real difficult time writing and I went
00:22:20
through that pain. I went through that
00:22:21
friction and if I had just had AI like
00:22:25
write my papers, I I never would have
00:22:27
made those connections. I never would
00:22:28
have gone through the friction of making
00:22:29
those connections. And so, and I think
00:22:33
the really
00:22:34
>> trouble writing. You're a very good
00:22:34
writer. Actually, I'm always
00:22:36
>> I got seasoned English.
00:22:38
>> Surprised on the upside with your
00:22:39
writing
00:22:40
>> because I did the work, right? And I
00:22:41
think the question is if you have if
00:22:43
kids have AI, do they ever do the work
00:22:44
and make the connections? As a matter of
00:22:46
fact, in my first year at UCLA, I was
00:22:48
failing English one and I said, "What
00:22:50
happens if you fail English one?"
00:22:51
Because it was a core class. You had to
00:22:53
take it. It was a requisite. They say,
00:22:54
"Well, you have to take English as a
00:22:56
second language despite the fact I
00:22:58
didn't speak a second language."
00:23:00
>> Wow.
00:23:00
>> Yeah, that was a pretty big I got my act
00:23:02
together.
00:23:02
>> Yeah. The friction. You're right. The
00:23:04
friction is what made you a better
00:23:05
writer to to struggle with it to to
00:23:08
figure it out yourself. And and this is
00:23:09
the problem and the threat of technology
00:23:11
across all of our youth. And that is why
00:23:15
venture outside and go through the
00:23:16
pecking order and the bullying order and
00:23:18
figuring out your place and trying to
00:23:19
find or join a gang if you will of
00:23:22
friends when you think you can have a
00:23:24
reasonable fact of friendship on Reddit
00:23:26
or Discord. Why why take risks go
00:23:29
through the expense humiliation enduring
00:23:31
you know rejection of trying to find a
00:23:33
romantic relationship when you think you
00:23:34
can replace it with synthetic lifelike
00:23:37
character AIS or or porn. So the the
00:23:41
defrictioning of life and AI kind of
00:23:44
takes it to a new level especially with
00:23:45
academia or academics it teaches young
00:23:49
people to never develop the key skills
00:23:51
they have to really uh be successful in
00:23:53
life and enjoy life.
00:23:54
>> Yeah absolutely I think most important
00:23:55
parts is this. I do think who's making
00:23:58
it matters and he was very clear about
00:24:00
that in terms of he was saying like for
00:24:02
example it's not the morality of AI it's
00:24:05
the morals of the people who make it and
00:24:07
I think he was talking about being a
00:24:09
very small group of people who are very
00:24:11
interested in um in in money really and
00:24:15
I you know I thought it was very one of
00:24:17
the things he was named Pope Leo because
00:24:18
of the last pope to do something like
00:24:20
this was over manufacturing and and the
00:24:23
mechanization of things and he's he's it
00:24:25
was very select elected to pick this
00:24:28
topic. He very carefully didn't insult
00:24:30
technology, but he really clearly
00:24:33
insulted its creators or said we need to
00:24:36
do better. And I think being the
00:24:37
conscience saying Doug Bergam is such a
00:24:39
[ __ ] I mean, of course, he's the
00:24:41
conscience of, you know, that JD Vance
00:24:44
acknowledged that. I think he's the
00:24:45
conscience of the world of his world and
00:24:48
it extends well beyond Catholics, let me
00:24:50
say. Um, and I think it's really
00:24:52
important for leaders like this to step
00:24:55
up. um and and and and suggested I do
00:24:58
think it does have an impact as people
00:25:00
are talking about it and they are
00:25:01
talking about the issues he brought up
00:25:03
including these safeguards around
00:25:05
weaponry protecting children and this is
00:25:08
already in the air with people and the
00:25:10
fact that the pope does it and stands up
00:25:12
and without any and then had some tech
00:25:15
people there I thought it was he's such
00:25:17
a savvy person I'm excited to see what
00:25:19
else he takes on and you know of course
00:25:21
the stupid Trump people call him the
00:25:22
woke pope but honestly he's just He's
00:25:25
the it's called conscience. It's not
00:25:27
woke. It's conscience.
00:25:28
>> But he did say just to wrap up when you
00:25:31
were talking about automation and uh the
00:25:34
last time technology appeared to be sort
00:25:36
of a threat.
00:25:37
>> You the industrial revolution mechanized
00:25:40
labor. And what he's saying is that AI
00:25:42
risks mechanizing judgment and
00:25:44
creativity and intimacy and even
00:25:47
>> meaning itself. And the way I would
00:25:49
interpret his comments was less
00:25:50
catastrophizing around AI will kill us,
00:25:53
but AI could potentially make us less
00:25:56
human while um concentrating
00:25:59
extraordinary wealth and power in the
00:26:01
hands of a few firms and states. I I
00:26:03
just think I think this guy distills
00:26:05
right to the core of the issues. He is
00:26:07
very smart. He is very impressive. He is
00:26:10
unafraid. I mean, as smart as he is, he
00:26:12
clearly had very smart people working on
00:26:14
these these
00:26:15
>> the people I've met at the Vatican have
00:26:17
been amazing. But I love that he called
00:26:18
it magnificent humanity. And by the way,
00:26:20
I love that he made cliffnotes for
00:26:21
people. He made a little chart which is
00:26:23
really good. It's an excellent chart. Um
00:26:26
I love a chart and I love a cliffnotee.
00:26:28
Um anyway, there's lots more a lot of
00:26:30
little stories, but important. Uh
00:26:32
installs for duck.gov jumped 30% after
00:26:34
Google announced its first overhaul in
00:26:36
24 years. Many people are disturbed by
00:26:37
this. Um Google changes include a shift
00:26:39
to AI with bigger, more interactive
00:26:41
search box that lets users ask longer
00:26:43
questions and upload photographs. It's
00:26:45
it's a significant change for search. Um
00:26:48
I have not used Google search in a long
00:26:50
time in a weird way. I do it I I
00:26:52
actually I definitely use it for some
00:26:55
things, but I tend to use I use all
00:26:57
kinds of search services, but it's not
00:26:59
only through Google is all I'm saying.
00:27:01
It used to be only through Google and I
00:27:03
like the simple box. I feel lucky box.
00:27:06
I've always thought it was fine, but I
00:27:07
see why they're doing it. At the same
00:27:09
time, a lot of people are like now
00:27:11
they're never going to link to anything
00:27:13
but what they want to link to, but
00:27:15
they've just sort of ended it for most
00:27:17
people using Google to get to say media
00:27:20
websites or whatever whatever you're
00:27:22
looking for. So that seems to be a
00:27:24
shift.
00:27:24
>> I think it's a smart bold move. I I
00:27:27
think they minus when you risk what is
00:27:29
arguably or do any twix the temptation
00:27:32
around what is the most profitable
00:27:33
largest toll booth in history. when you
00:27:36
risk, you know, there's just probably so
00:27:38
much momentum to like guys who don't
00:27:40
[ __ ] with it. Like, don't
00:27:42
>> absolutely
00:27:43
>> don't change anything. So, I think it's
00:27:45
actually a pretty bold move. And I do
00:27:46
find when I do Google search, those AI
00:27:48
overviews are actually quite helpful.
00:27:49
>> They've gotten better. They were bad,
00:27:51
now they're good.
00:27:52
>> You said that. You said you like them.
00:27:53
Um,
00:27:54
>> I do.
00:27:55
>> So, it's
00:27:57
I I think it's the right thing. They
00:27:58
have to respond. They have to push back.
00:28:01
The reason why Alphabet was such an
00:28:03
incredible buy, trading at 17 times
00:28:04
earnings last year, was the market
00:28:06
believed that OpenAI and AI queries were
00:28:09
a an existential threat to search that
00:28:11
it was become the new search. And what
00:28:14
we're saying is they're both growing
00:28:15
like crazy. So, but I find that I do
00:28:17
often times go to uh Claude instead of
00:28:21
Google.
00:28:22
>> Yeah, exactly. And Google just never
00:28:24
gives me what I want anymore. It's not
00:28:26
It's useless in some ways. And but when
00:28:28
I like look for like how do you boil an
00:28:31
egg or I don't do that but um you know
00:28:33
how many minutes for a jammy egg I'll go
00:28:35
to Google right that's but now actually
00:28:37
I might go to claude you're right I
00:28:39
might do that so they they kind of have
00:28:41
to you're right I know people are
00:28:43
bothered but it's ch they have to change
00:28:45
you're absolutely right um next up
00:28:46
President Trump abruptly postponed
00:28:48
signing an executive order on a after
00:28:50
former AISR David Sachs reportedly
00:28:52
voiced concerns it could prove too
00:28:54
ownorous for the industry he got back he
00:28:55
was had lost power then he got it back.
00:28:57
I guess the order would have granted the
00:28:59
government oversight on a new AI models
00:29:01
before they released to the public. Very
00:29:03
temporary oversight, by the way, and it
00:29:05
was some of it was voluntary. AI
00:29:07
companies also been told that Trump was
00:29:08
not happy that many of their chief
00:29:10
executives could not attend the signing.
00:29:12
That's probably more to the point uh
00:29:14
being invited just 24 hours prior. I I
00:29:16
don't think this order will resurface.
00:29:18
there was a a brief attempt by certain
00:29:20
people within the Trump administration
00:29:22
uh who who were who were more interested
00:29:25
in safety issues and uh David you know
00:29:28
got in there and and so did Zuckerberg
00:29:30
and um someone else I can't remember who
00:29:33
it was a third person um who got in
00:29:35
there and convinced him otherwise Elon
00:29:38
was Elon
00:29:39
>> this was uh I thought it was a good idea
00:29:41
um the order would have required AI labs
00:29:43
to share frontier models with the
00:29:45
government 90 days before public release
00:29:47
for
00:29:48
That seems like a very important and
00:29:50
basic first step for any of this.
00:29:52
Something that really struck me was the
00:29:55
founders of this technology, the people
00:29:57
that know more about it than any in the
00:29:59
world are saying that this technology is
00:30:02
potentially more liberating than
00:30:06
than nuclear fusion and potentially more
00:30:11
dangerous. So, here's a technology that
00:30:13
the people who understand it the best
00:30:14
are saying is potentially more dangerous
00:30:17
than nuclear weapons. We didn't let
00:30:20
Oppenheimer start a company and start
00:30:22
selling bombs to China.
00:30:24
>> That's a good comparison.
00:30:25
>> So,
00:30:26
>> that's actually a very good
00:30:28
>> Well, I think there's a really decent
00:30:30
rational argument that if in fact you
00:30:31
have something that is potentially more
00:30:34
dangerous than any weapon in history,
00:30:37
wouldn't you want the government
00:30:38
controlling it?
00:30:38
>> Yes. We want it to be part of the
00:30:40
decision. Not only we're not only not
00:30:42
controlling it, it's not only done it's
00:30:43
not only done under the opices of the
00:30:45
department of defense cooperating with
00:30:47
the private sector or Lawrence Livermore
00:30:48
Labs or what have you. We have people
00:30:52
trying to go public and who have lawyers
00:30:54
and lobbyists u many of whom stepped in
00:30:57
here to say you know we all talk about
00:30:59
the need for regulation. We've been to
00:31:01
this movie before. We talk about we show
00:31:04
up and stand next to the Pope and say
00:31:07
and cosplay Sher Samberg we need to do
00:31:09
better. Yeah,
00:31:10
>> we need to regulation
00:31:14
>> and then Oh, no. Get on the phone. Tell
00:31:15
him no. Tell him tell him to stop. Tell
00:31:17
him his his big bet on AI. 93% of GDP
00:31:21
growth is now from AI capex can't do
00:31:24
anything to get in the way. And if you
00:31:25
slow our runners down, the the free
00:31:29
games anabolic steroid pumped up Chinese
00:31:31
models are going to are going to come
00:31:33
for us and beat us. And there's no truth
00:31:35
to that. And if they did this correctly
00:31:36
and they had standards, government
00:31:39
review might actually make the industry
00:31:41
better and and make them less prone. You
00:31:44
know, regulation at this point would be
00:31:47
a feature, not a bug in terms of
00:31:49
capitalism and these companies ability
00:31:50
to know know how to develop what they
00:31:52
can, what they can't do, what they need
00:31:54
to check. But a 90-day review
00:31:55
>> I know
00:31:57
>> does it take what is it? It takes a drug
00:31:58
a decade to get through the FDA.
00:32:00
>> Exactly. It's ridiculous. I just there's
00:32:01
a real beef going on in the
00:32:03
administration and Sax is on one side
00:32:05
and some others are on the others and
00:32:07
we'll see. You know, eventually this
00:32:08
will happen for these companies. They
00:32:10
just want to put it off as long as they
00:32:12
can. And Sax is not working for the
00:32:13
safety of the United States or anything
00:32:15
else. He's working for his friends in
00:32:16
Silicon Valley. And that's
00:32:17
>> You know who's actually increasing AI
00:32:19
legislation and regulation?
00:32:22
>> China.
00:32:22
>> China. They are. That's right. The
00:32:24
Beijing State Council issued a 2026
00:32:26
legislative work plan in May with AI,
00:32:28
governance, language, appealing
00:32:30
>> and about jobs because they know what'll
00:32:32
happen if people feel a drift in China.
00:32:35
That's not something that can happen.
00:32:36
You're absolutely right. They're they're
00:32:37
so much smarter in how they handle these
00:32:39
things, which is really a depressing
00:32:40
thing to say.
00:32:42
>> They released they enacted binding rules
00:32:44
on AI emotional interaction, identity
00:32:47
disclosure, y
00:32:49
>> and content accountability.
00:32:50
>> They read the pope. So, you know,
00:32:52
anyway, We passed zero AI legislation.
00:32:55
>> Zero. Except in the states and there's
00:32:57
more to come. There there's a real anger
00:32:59
brewing and it is not not it's it's
00:33:00
something a Democratic candidate should
00:33:03
not like kill the billionaires kind of
00:33:04
thing or or or or pitchforks, but
00:33:07
there's a pitchforky. I was just talking
00:33:09
to Tim Miller on his podcast and he
00:33:11
feels a pitchforky moment and that's not
00:33:13
what you want. You want something that's
00:33:15
makes sense. And unfortunately, cuz the
00:33:17
tech people just can't possibly uh
00:33:19
accept any kind of of strictcture or
00:33:22
speed limit, they they they're going to
00:33:24
they're going to unfortunately get the
00:33:26
worst the worst outcome for themselves
00:33:28
eventually, but probably they'll be just
00:33:29
fine.
00:33:30
>> Well, hold on. Just to just to wrap on
00:33:32
this, just as Lincoln said, no country
00:33:34
can lose a war when it has public
00:33:36
support. No country can win a war when
00:33:38
it doesn't have it.
00:33:39
>> Yeah. If you look at what Chinese China
00:33:42
has done with AI and it has released a
00:33:44
series of um legislative policies and
00:33:48
around emotional security uh
00:33:50
concentration of power and it's made
00:33:52
them public. The difference is the
00:33:54
following. The Chinese now support AI.
00:33:57
87% of Chinese people trust AI versus
00:34:00
just 32%
00:34:02
of Americans because why? because the
00:34:04
Chinese believe that their government
00:34:06
has the ability to protect them against
00:34:08
AI and is regulating the technology
00:34:11
effectively. 54% of Chinese people
00:34:13
embrace greater use of AI versus just
00:34:16
17% of Americans. And 9 and 10 Chinese
00:34:20
age 18 to 34 said they had faith in the
00:34:22
technology versus four and 10 of
00:34:24
Americans in the same age group
00:34:26
>> and young people particularly. I mean,
00:34:27
good job David Saxs everybody.
00:34:29
>> So you have the populace of China.
00:34:31
>> Yeah. is embracing AI and trusts it and
00:34:34
trusts that they have a government to
00:34:36
kind of soften the edges or reduce some
00:34:38
of the externalities. Whereas in the US,
00:34:40
you have people driving hundreds of
00:34:41
miles to protest a [ __ ] data center.
00:34:43
>> Yeah, agreed. Agreed.
00:34:44
>> So that you want to talk about we just
00:34:47
get it so badass award. We think
00:34:49
>> well it it has to do with tech people
00:34:51
being up in Trump's grill and
00:34:53
controlling him.
00:34:54
>> That's what it is.
00:34:55
>> And Trump believing that a lack of
00:34:56
regulation he he doesn't understand the
00:34:58
difference between
00:34:58
>> move toward it though. Why did he move
00:35:00
toward it? Why was he going to It's
00:35:02
really interesting. There's just largely
00:35:04
probably because they wouldn't show up
00:35:05
to his party. That's my guess with him
00:35:07
cuz he's so ridiculous. Um but any in
00:35:10
any case, we have to move on to this
00:35:11
because this is a topic uh that you've
00:35:13
talked about. Uber COO says it's hard to
00:35:15
draw a connection between the company's
00:35:16
rising use of claude code and the
00:35:18
expense, especially the tokens and
00:35:20
innovation meant to serve consumers.
00:35:22
This comes after uh after reports the
00:35:25
company already burnt through its entire
00:35:26
2026 AI coding tools budget. This is to
00:35:29
buy tokens in just four months. Um, this
00:35:32
is this is a one of these indications
00:35:34
you were talking about, right? This idea
00:35:36
that what are we getting here for our
00:35:37
money? Uh, am I paying too much for this
00:35:39
muffler? That kind of stuff.
00:35:42
>> There 95% of CFOs in a interesting study
00:35:45
done by a professor out of MIT
00:35:48
said that 90 only one in 20 CFOs are can
00:35:52
point to a positive ROI and it's
00:35:55
starting to bubble up into a real
00:35:56
expense.
00:35:57
>> Yeah. And there's even Nvidia is
00:35:59
claiming they're spending more now on AI
00:36:02
internally than they're spending on
00:36:03
humans. And so this is it's going to be
00:36:06
very interesting car because for example
00:36:08
claude is about nine times more
00:36:10
expensive than some of the Chinese
00:36:11
openweight LLMs. And when the CFOs see
00:36:14
these bills and aren't immediately able
00:36:17
to connect it, like Uber's blown through
00:36:20
its AI budget, you know, in a few weeks
00:36:22
or a few months, and someone's going to
00:36:24
ask,
00:36:25
>> how is this making the consumer's
00:36:27
experience with Uber better,
00:36:29
>> right?
00:36:29
>> And this is how the whole thing unwinds.
00:36:31
one a a really credible CEO says, "Okay,
00:36:36
we're going to scale back our investment
00:36:38
here until we can figure out a way to
00:36:39
more directly attach to some sort of
00:36:41
consumer benefit or ROI." And I think
00:36:44
where if you go second and third order
00:36:46
effects, I think it goes the following
00:36:48
places. Supposedly 80% of startups are
00:36:50
hacking or using some sort of Chinese
00:36:52
openweight LLM. One, they use less
00:36:55
expensive chips. They have cheaper
00:36:56
power. I also think they're pricing it
00:36:58
below market because a lot of local
00:37:00
provinces in China have sort of their
00:37:01
local champions that they're
00:37:02
subsidizing.
00:37:04
And I think what we're going to see is
00:37:06
the Trump administration when they start
00:37:07
to see companies opt for their cheaper
00:37:10
Chinese models. We've been to this movie
00:37:12
before. China steals our IP.
00:37:13
>> Y
00:37:14
>> develops 80% of what we have and sells
00:37:16
it back to us for 40% on the on the
00:37:18
dollar.
00:37:19
>> Yeah. Can I I'm going to interject. One
00:37:20
of the things Mark Cuban had when I was
00:37:22
interviewing Daru Emodi at a recent
00:37:24
event um I said send me a question
00:37:27
>> um and I said I had just written his
00:37:29
essay Daario's essay uh machines of
00:37:32
loving grace um and he Mark wrote me
00:37:34
this the first thing he wrote me back
00:37:35
was explain the token economy to
00:37:37
everyone here do you see a scenario
00:37:40
where the high cost of tokens makes it
00:37:42
cheaper to hire people for certain jobs
00:37:44
I thought that was a great I did ask
00:37:45
that it was a really it was he was
00:37:48
already clocking this this issue that
00:37:50
maybe people are more less expensive
00:37:52
than this token these tokens that that
00:37:55
costs and tokens are what you spend on
00:37:58
computing just for people
00:37:59
>> humans are less expensive and
00:38:01
>> or can be
00:38:02
>> I mean cloud I think it's cloud cloud
00:38:04
code max or cloud m I've already run out
00:38:07
of tokens I'm playing with this [ __ ] so
00:38:08
often I had one of those prompts that
00:38:10
says you need to upgrade to cloud max
00:38:12
which is $200 a month what's interesting
00:38:15
>> do you get the benefits do you get the
00:38:16
benefits of the money you spend or just
00:38:18
you're playing with
00:38:20
At this point, it's well worth it for
00:38:21
me. I'm just fascinated by it. I have
00:38:23
discussions around
00:38:24
>> So, it's a hobby.
00:38:25
>> Yeah. And I also use it to I use it to
00:38:27
find data. If I'm struggling, if I have
00:38:30
a paragraph that just sounds clunky, I
00:38:32
say I say, "How would you edit this or
00:38:33
what analogies would be better?"
00:38:35
>> You know, you could call me for free and
00:38:36
I would probably do a better job.
00:38:38
>> You're not available. And by the way,
00:38:39
define free.
00:38:42
>> I I actually think
00:38:44
>> in terms of in terms of economic cost, I
00:38:46
would say it's free. In terms of
00:38:48
non-economic costs, I would argue you're
00:38:49
you're pretty expensive.
00:38:50
>> Anyway, we have to move on.
00:38:52
>> As sitting bull said, "What is free
00:38:53
white man?"
00:38:54
>> Oh, sick.
00:38:56
>> But but what's interesting what I found
00:38:58
out about Claude Max, the $200 a month
00:39:00
thing that I'm about to upgrade to.
00:39:02
>> Oh, you're going to do
00:39:02
>> is that it costs them
00:39:04
>> for for you to use Cloud Max. It costs
00:39:06
Anthropic $5,000 a month,
00:39:10
>> right,
00:39:10
>> to deliver that product to you.
00:39:12
>> Amazing.
00:39:13
>> Yeah. just the the cost on
00:39:14
infrastructure and power
00:39:16
>> once we sell more we'll volume we'll
00:39:18
make it up in volume right is that the
00:39:20
>> well no the the what they're hoping is
00:39:23
the the laws one of the first economic
00:39:25
concepts you learn is that and it's
00:39:28
called it's not Jehovah's paradox I
00:39:30
forget this guy wrote a brilliant paper
00:39:31
on it but I just thought he just
00:39:33
summarized the term elasticity but the
00:39:35
economic term elasticity is that as the
00:39:37
price of something goes down the demand
00:39:38
for it goes up and everybody thought
00:39:40
well as computing power goes down and
00:39:42
becomes
00:39:43
cheap chips will go out of business
00:39:44
because you won't need as many from
00:39:45
Intel. And what happens is as the cost
00:39:47
of something goes down, more and more
00:39:49
people use it. And there's a viable
00:39:51
argument, and I've sort of been making
00:39:52
this argument about what I call
00:39:53
apocalypse, snow, and that is all the
00:39:55
catastrophizing around labor
00:39:56
destruction. It's total [ __ ] that
00:39:58
as the cost of AI go way down, we're
00:40:01
going to find more uses for it. We're
00:40:02
actually going to end up hiring more
00:40:04
programmers or vibe codes.
00:40:05
>> Could be. I I do think the costs are
00:40:07
going to actually go down eventually,
00:40:08
but just not today. All right, Scott,
00:40:10
let's go on a quick break. We come back,
00:40:12
we'll talk about Elon possibly combining
00:40:14
SpaceX and Tesla just as Caris Fisher
00:40:16
predicted.
00:40:17
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>> Scott, we're back with more news. As
00:41:31
SpaceX prepares to go public, rumors are
00:41:33
again circulating that Elon Musk will
00:41:34
eventually combine the company with
00:41:35
Tesla. Obviously, God, I mean, we're not
00:41:39
speaking, but I know how this guy
00:41:40
thinks. Musk has reportedly discussed
00:41:42
the possibility with colleagues that two
00:41:44
companies are already share engineers
00:41:46
and collaborate. There's all kinds of
00:41:47
cross stuff that lot of sketchies cross
00:41:50
stuff if you recall at the time when he
00:41:52
took over Twitter and collaborate on
00:41:54
power and compute issues. Also, um uh by
00:41:57
the way, SpaceX got a $2.29 29 billion
00:42:00
dollar contract to build a satellite
00:42:01
communications network to connect
00:42:03
military sensors and weapons platforms
00:42:04
around the world. Um they have to
00:42:06
deliver an operational prototype by the
00:42:08
end of 2027. So he's doing well. He's
00:42:11
doing well with his his Trump uh uh help
00:42:15
of Trump etc. The B it's a mutual
00:42:17
benefit society for them. But this uh
00:42:19
this putting Tesla in here, it just
00:42:21
makes complete sense is that he's
00:42:23
someone said it was like two it was
00:42:24
mortgage back securities, a bunch of pe
00:42:26
bunch of companies that can't pay
00:42:28
wrapped around Elon Musk and a company
00:42:31
that's okay, which is Starlink. Um so
00:42:33
it's like a sort of a collection and so
00:42:35
he's shoving this stuff all together. Um
00:42:38
the it makes sense on a data point of
00:42:40
view. Um it makes sense uh to hide a
00:42:43
bunch of stuff. uh he already had these
00:42:45
weird very questionable transactions
00:42:48
like buying cyber trucks for for SpaceX
00:42:51
which makes no sense except if you want
00:42:53
to look good. Um so why not just mash
00:42:55
the whole [ __ ] thing together and
00:42:57
then make everybody buy it uh who is in
00:43:00
an index fund which is another thing. So
00:43:02
any of these comments the contract the
00:43:05
merger the the NASDAQ situation.
00:43:08
>> Well you did predict it but my analogy
00:43:10
is the following. Um, Snow White is hot
00:43:13
and the prospect of getting to marry
00:43:15
Snow White is super exciting and Snow
00:43:17
White to SpaceX. But unfortunately to
00:43:18
buy SpaceX, you got to take on these
00:43:20
seven [ __ ] weirdos who are expensive
00:43:21
and neurotic and I mean XAI, which has
00:43:24
been attached onto
00:43:27
uh SpaceX, an incredible company, is a
00:43:29
money furnace that's playing catchup and
00:43:31
>> trying to be an infrastructure provider
00:43:33
now. So is so is um Meta, by the way.
00:43:35
But go ahead.
00:43:36
>> I still think Tesla's a great product. I
00:43:37
got him one the other day and I do I do
00:43:40
think they have a fantastic car, but
00:43:41
it's a struggling business with a
00:43:43
multiple of 192 times Ford earnings and
00:43:48
Apple trades at 33 times forward
00:43:50
earnings. And then if you look at
00:43:51
Tesla's just business in the in in
00:43:54
Europe, they've
00:43:55
>> fallen off sales have fallen for 13
00:43:58
consecutive months. Its market share in
00:43:59
Europe has gone from 1% to8% while the
00:44:02
EV market has expanded about 30% in
00:44:05
2025. In Norway, sales are down 90%,
00:44:08
Netherlands down 80%, UK down 50%.
00:44:11
Buying it.
00:44:11
>> Meanwhile,
00:44:12
>> BYD registrations are up 260%.
00:44:16
>> Yeah.
00:44:17
>> In Europe. And the reason why it's
00:44:19
valuation, I didn't say it was a bad
00:44:21
car. I said he didn't innovate in it.
00:44:23
There was another new car. And BYD keeps
00:44:25
innovating. Every time you see a new
00:44:27
one, you're like, "Cool." Tesla's the
00:44:29
same pretty much the same car for the
00:44:31
past. And then they deliver Cybert truck
00:44:33
as their innovation. So that's my beef.
00:44:36
>> Stocks are like brands and that is
00:44:38
they're part promise and part
00:44:40
performance and the promise. No one
00:44:44
articulates and gets more cheap capital
00:44:46
on the promise part of that equation
00:44:49
than Elon Musk. He's arguably the best
00:44:51
salesperson and communicator in the
00:44:53
history of the public markets. And the
00:44:57
promise though the performance is is
00:44:59
like so far behind the promise. For
00:45:00
example, the promise has not worked out.
00:45:02
So robo taxi miles, they doubled
00:45:04
sequentially in Q1, but it's he was
00:45:07
saying that there would be a thousand
00:45:08
robo taxis on the road about 5 years
00:45:10
ago. Uh across all three Texas cities
00:45:13
where robo taxis operate, Tesla has just
00:45:16
25 unsupervised vehicles. Um I mean
00:45:19
none, right? Meanwhile, their SF robo
00:45:21
taxi service still uses a safety monitor
00:45:23
in the front seat. And there are five
00:45:25
and there are five more cities on the
00:45:27
way, but must timelines famously cannot
00:45:28
be trusted. And then and then he tries
00:45:31
to create all of these distractions.
00:45:33
Look over here at robots. I'm staying
00:45:35
I'm staying in Beverly Hills in Los
00:45:36
Angeles. If I go to my my deck, I can
00:45:39
see a Whimo. They're everywhere in LA.
00:45:42
Garrett,
00:45:42
>> there's actually fewer uh of the Tesla
00:45:45
taxis robo taxis in in Austin. They've
00:45:47
cut them back.
00:45:48
>> And then
00:45:50
the worst car release or you know the
00:45:53
worst tech product the last year was the
00:45:56
Cybertruck, which by the way is about to
00:45:57
be bested by one of the great brands in
00:45:59
history. You're about to see one of the
00:46:00
biggest brand failures in history and
00:46:01
that is the equivalent. Tech has
00:46:04
literally like infected so many things
00:46:06
and it's infected one of the purest
00:46:08
brands in the world. It's infected
00:46:09
Ferrari. The new electric Ferrari is
00:46:11
about to be just panned.
00:46:13
>> It was Yeah. Yeah. It's getting panned
00:46:15
right now.
00:46:16
>> Oh, it's going to be Johnny the Johnny.
00:46:19
>> It's going to be one of the brand
00:46:20
stories of the year.
00:46:20
>> They said it looks like a Honda, right?
00:46:22
It's basically they said Apple gave up
00:46:24
on their project Titan and they slapped
00:46:27
a they slapped a a stallion on it.
00:46:29
You're going to see oh my god you're
00:46:31
going to see the Ferrari Pierce. You're
00:46:32
going to see so many 80-year-old old men
00:46:34
going on to Tik Tok for the first time
00:46:35
in their lives to ship post this thing.
00:46:37
And SpaceX, get this, SpaceX accounted
00:46:40
for nearly 20% of Cybertruck sales in Q4
00:46:42
2025 cuz he bought back a bunch of
00:46:44
Cybert trucks. So I think it's smart for
00:46:47
him to do. It's more jazz hands. It's
00:46:49
more pretending, attaching something to
00:46:51
something amazing to try and
00:46:53
>> Yep.
00:46:53
>> I mean, he's very good at this and you
00:46:55
predicted it, but to take put Elon on
00:46:58
top of something that's very exciting
00:46:59
around rockets, data centers in space,
00:47:02
>> rockets.
00:47:03
>> Yeah. And he is a visionary. We need to
00:47:06
be an interplanetary species
00:47:07
>> and now you have to buy it with NASDAQ.
00:47:09
Explain to people very briefly what that
00:47:11
is so so people understand. the index
00:47:14
fund issue is that it's they they've
00:47:16
lowered the amount of time before J big
00:47:19
IPOs go into the index and now people
00:47:21
are going to be forced to buy his
00:47:23
company.
00:47:24
>> Um also open AI also anthropic etc.
00:47:28
>> So basically the rule was before you
00:47:29
joined the S&P you had to be profitable
00:47:31
for a certain amount of quarters and you
00:47:32
had to be in the index for at least a
00:47:33
year. They've waved those rules because
00:47:35
they realize and it makes sense they're
00:47:37
big important companies. What that means
00:47:39
is if you invest in an ETF or an index,
00:47:41
you're automatically own these companies
00:47:43
at those prices. And at these prices, at
00:47:45
these valuations, I would argue, I mean,
00:47:48
to a certain extent, the IPO markets
00:47:50
might be over. And that is the way I see
00:47:53
it is the the reason we went public, the
00:47:55
reason Google went public was you
00:47:57
couldn't raise three or 5 billion from
00:47:58
venture capital and private institutions
00:48:00
in 1997. Now there's almost as much
00:48:03
capital, if not more, in the private
00:48:04
market. So logically you have to ask
00:48:06
yourself why does a company decide to go
00:48:08
public and one reason it's a branding
00:48:10
event two it creates more liquid
00:48:12
currency potentially but these companies
00:48:14
have very liquid currency on the
00:48:15
secondary markets they do it because I I
00:48:18
think largely speaking and they don't
00:48:19
want to say this out loud once the
00:48:22
private investors go look this thing's
00:48:24
getting pretty frothy most of the juice
00:48:25
has been squeezed out of it well who is
00:48:28
stupid enough to take the valuation even
00:48:30
further up well okay the last stop on
00:48:32
the Trump on the chump train right now
00:48:34
is the public markets. So, typically a
00:48:38
company like OpenAI would have gone
00:48:40
public when it was worth 30 or 50
00:48:41
billion. But the existing investors of
00:48:44
Open AI and Anthropic say, "Oh, no, no,
00:48:45
no, no. They're still juicier. Let's
00:48:47
keep this to ourselves and we'll find
00:48:49
you capital." And then when they start
00:48:51
going, "Wow, this valuation is rich for
00:48:53
even us. Let's go see if mom and pop
00:48:56
retail investor and people on Robin Hood
00:48:57
and people on Reddit who love Elon and
00:49:00
people around the world who want to
00:49:02
participate in the e economy are
00:49:04
actually willing to invest. I my
00:49:06
prediction is these three companies,
00:49:08
especially AI, are going to go through a
00:49:09
pretty serious repricing. Not a collapse
00:49:11
like a 2000 collapse, but a repricing.
00:49:14
And then when you combine that with the
00:49:15
fact that you now have access to private
00:49:17
companies with different secondary
00:49:19
markets, potentially the tokenization of
00:49:21
small companies, it's just going to make
00:49:23
the IPO less and less relevant because
00:49:25
of the reporting standards. And this is
00:49:27
the indices trying to say we want to
00:49:29
make it more attractive for companies to
00:49:32
go public and also reflect the S&P
00:49:34
should reflect.
00:49:36
>> I get it. It's just that people
00:49:37
shouldn't have this shoved an
00:49:39
unprofitable company with with or held
00:49:42
up by one guy shoved down their throat
00:49:44
without it's like getting the you
00:49:47
is PNG shoved down their throat. It's
00:49:49
the same thing.
00:49:49
>> It is but it's a profitable company has
00:49:51
been a business like let's just give it
00:49:52
a
00:49:53
>> but the best returns have been in
00:49:54
companies that are growing faster and
00:49:55
not profitable.
00:49:56
>> Yes, it is. And at the same time, let
00:49:58
them buy it themselves then. I mean it
00:50:00
just seems like a risky thing to stick
00:50:02
in there this quickly. That's all I just
00:50:04
I'm like it's going to benefit the
00:50:06
people. It's going to benefit Elon Musk
00:50:08
but maybe not the pension funds of
00:50:10
nurses. Like I don't know and I just
00:50:13
don't think that risk is necessary.
00:50:14
>> In a weird way there's so many
00:50:16
>> index fund. I don't want to own SpaceX.
00:50:18
I don't want not right now.
00:50:20
>> I mean if you look if you look at the
00:50:22
valuation of these companies going
00:50:23
public it's going to be combined $4
00:50:24
trillion. It's like from 1980 to 2020
00:50:27
the amount of money being raised just
00:50:29
across these three companies is is just
00:50:32
staggering. And what it probably will do
00:50:34
in the short run is it'll probably take
00:50:36
the S&P down because so much money is
00:50:38
going to come from every corner of the
00:50:40
earth to to participate in these things
00:50:42
to raise $150 million. the rest of the
00:50:45
market feels that if you want to talk
00:50:47
about
00:50:49
I mean ju what happens I'm fascinated by
00:50:52
this because what happens when these
00:50:55
three companies go public 11,000 people
00:50:57
in the Bay Area Bay Area are overnight
00:50:59
imagine everyone who goes walks into
00:51:02
Madison Square Garden place is sold out
00:51:04
everyone who walked in was a 31-year-old
00:51:07
product manager making 180,000 or
00:51:09
$240,000 a year good living but some
00:51:11
student debt can't afford a house and
00:51:14
and they walk out on the worth 7 to $11
00:51:16
million. What happens? They have more
00:51:19
kids. They buy a new house as evidenced
00:51:21
by skyrocketing prices. Uh upside here,
00:51:24
you're going to see a lot of funds
00:51:25
started. There's also tremendous new
00:51:27
business development. The other thing
00:51:29
you're going to see, which is a good
00:51:30
thing, you are about to see the mother
00:51:32
of all increases in philanthropic giving
00:51:34
in the Bay Area.
00:51:35
>> One would hope.
00:51:36
>> Well, I do people do the these people do
00:51:39
start foundations. Let me just say if
00:51:41
you look at the actual statistics, it's
00:51:43
McKenzie Scott and then a which is an
00:51:46
enormous graph like a big long bar and
00:51:49
then all the others including Elon Musk
00:51:52
down here. I'm
00:51:53
>> talking I'm not talking about the big
00:51:54
ones. I'm talking about a lot of people.
00:51:57
Americans are very generous
00:51:58
philanthropic people and when
00:52:01
>> people sorry
00:52:03
>> I'm I'm not talking there's there's two
00:52:04
things here. When you do when you do
00:52:07
have this kind of liquidity event, you
00:52:09
do see a bump up in philanthropy.
00:52:11
Philanthropy is almost entirely
00:52:13
correlated now unfortunately to big IPOs
00:52:16
in the stock market and and a lot of
00:52:19
people give stock to universities in the
00:52:21
tax advantage universities.
00:52:23
>> That's what I've done. Every time I
00:52:24
invest in a private company, I give a
00:52:25
certain amount of it away to one of my,
00:52:27
you know, to either public education or
00:52:29
suicide prevention.
00:52:30
>> All right, Scott, one more quick break.
00:52:31
We'll be back for predictions.
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00:54:03
Scott, we're back and I want to mention
00:54:04
something quickly. CBS News just named
00:54:06
tech journalist Nick Bilton is the new
00:54:08
executive producer of 60 Minutes.
00:54:09
Builtin is a longtime tech journalist
00:54:11
and filmmaker who's never worked in
00:54:13
traditional broadcast news. I know Nick.
00:54:16
Uh, interesting. I'll see. It'll be
00:54:18
interesting to see what he has to what
00:54:19
he's going to do there. Um, and uh,
00:54:22
we'll see where it goes. This comes on
00:54:25
the heels of 60 Minutes correspondent
00:54:27
Sharon Alons announcing that CBS
00:54:29
declined to renew her contract. She's an
00:54:31
excellent reporter. She did great stuff
00:54:32
on Character AI. She's been a wonderful
00:54:34
reporter. The move comes 6 months after
00:54:36
Alonsy's report on abuse inside Salvador
00:54:39
and Prisons was abruptly pulled uh,
00:54:40
before airing a month later. Alonsi
00:54:42
called the decision political, and it
00:54:44
certainly was. In a statement, she said
00:54:46
she did a really uh like she just burnt
00:54:49
the house down leaving. Alonsi said the
00:54:51
exit is quote a deliberate choice to
00:54:52
penalize a journalist for refusing to
00:54:54
sanitize factually accurate reporting.
00:54:56
She added sends a chilling message
00:54:58
across the entire newsroom. And by the
00:55:00
way, Sharon's not the only one. Anderson
00:55:02
Cooper stepping out the way he is not
00:55:04
usually leaving a few weeks ago saying,
00:55:06
"I hope 60 minutes remain 60 minutes."
00:55:09
He also was sending sort of a a shot
00:55:11
across the bow there. I just want to
00:55:12
call it these two excellent journalists
00:55:14
of 60 Minutes and um Sharon's a badass.
00:55:17
I I don't I know are just met on text
00:55:21
actually but and Anderson I think has
00:55:23
done an amazing job. So these are two
00:55:25
really uh really great journalists and I
00:55:28
I predict that they will do just fine.
00:55:30
But good for them for for uh speaking
00:55:33
out and especially good there was a
00:55:35
student who won an award at the Emmys
00:55:37
last night which was named scholarship
00:55:40
for Mike Wallace and he delivered a
00:55:43
blistering attack on
00:55:45
supporting these these two journalists
00:55:47
and supporting others like them. And I
00:55:49
thought that person was incredibly it's
00:55:51
very hard to speak out and Anderson and
00:55:54
Sharon and this young student uh did so
00:55:57
and I I really you'll do you guys will
00:55:59
do just fine of Anderson particularly
00:56:01
but in general um good for you for
00:56:04
standing up. That's all I have to say.
00:56:05
It'll be a really interesting case study
00:56:06
in organizational behavior and
00:56:08
management classes in business school
00:56:09
and that is corporations continue to
00:56:11
fall for the notion that if they bring
00:56:13
in a small company they perceive as
00:56:16
really innovative that that small virus
00:56:18
is going to infect the entire corpus.
00:56:20
And generally almost always what you
00:56:22
find is that the corpus rejects the
00:56:24
virus. It's like acquisitions work when
00:56:28
the acquiring company has the scale and
00:56:30
distribution or capital to help scale
00:56:32
the small innovative company. But to
00:56:34
believe that the innovation is going to
00:56:35
infect the larger corporation or corpus
00:56:38
almost never works out. So let's give
00:56:42
let's give the free press the benefit of
00:56:43
the doubt. Innovative little company
00:56:45
subscription-based
00:56:47
interesting positioning and the
00:56:49
Ellison's thought that's the kind of
00:56:50
mojo and juice and infection we need at
00:56:52
this larger somewhat encphilletic corpus
00:56:55
called CBS or Paramount. There's been
00:56:58
Oregon rejection. Also, what CEOs of
00:57:01
smaller companies fail to recognize is
00:57:03
the following. And it's the reason why
00:57:05
I've never been able to grow a big
00:57:07
company to small companies. And that is
00:57:10
a small company is ready for our aim.
00:57:12
The person at the top really does get to
00:57:14
make swift, crisp decisions. I am the
00:57:19
decider. This is the way we're going.
00:57:20
Our one of our key things here is speed,
00:57:23
which means this is not a democracy.
00:57:25
There's very few things that are less
00:57:26
democratic than a small company trying
00:57:28
to work fast or go fast because it's
00:57:30
kind of like what do we think okay get
00:57:32
on it ready fire aim let's start
00:57:34
yesterday in a large organization that's
00:57:37
scaling it's more about consensus and
00:57:39
and getting people on board and culture
00:57:42
and you're you're a speedboat ramming a
00:57:44
tanker and what you fail to realize as
00:57:47
the CEO of a company like this and what
00:57:49
I think Barry has failed to realize is
00:57:51
you're Phil Jackson the coach of the
00:57:53
Bulls and that is Your job, you're
00:57:56
blessed with some unbelievable assets.
00:57:58
Your job is not to coach Michael Jordan.
00:58:01
It's to get along with him and be a
00:58:04
resource for him. You're not in charge.
00:58:06
They are. They're the asset. When you're
00:58:10
Mikuel Artetta and you're coaching
00:58:12
Bukayasaka at Arsenal, which by the way
00:58:14
just won the Prem League. This is very
00:58:15
exciting. When you come into an
00:58:17
organization like CBS and you do have
00:58:20
kind of these stars that are iconic,
00:58:22
your job is to get along with them.
00:58:24
>> Well, let me say 60 Minutes has been
00:58:26
enormously successful. It's not I mean,
00:58:28
no, but I'm just saying like pretending
00:58:30
it's just cuz they're in Sephletics and
00:58:31
this sassy new startup is going to
00:58:34
change things. I think a lot of these
00:58:35
errors are errors of incompetence, not
00:58:37
of trying to change things and these old
00:58:39
people won't change. These are like top
00:58:41
level journalists that were doing a
00:58:44
great job and has had 52 years of
00:58:46
success. Like, you know, they're doing
00:58:48
well. It's not like they're not doing
00:58:49
well. So, why
00:58:50
>> I I think we're speaking past each
00:58:52
other. I'm agreeing with you. CBS is
00:58:55
Michael Jordan.
00:58:56
>> Yeah.
00:58:56
>> Barry Weiss is Phil Jackson.
00:58:58
>> His job isn't to show up and reorganize
00:59:00
and tell everyone how to dribble and
00:59:02
play again. His job, quite frankly, is
00:59:04
to get The only management of CBS is the
00:59:07
following. Hi, nice to meet you. How can
00:59:11
I help?
00:59:12
>> That's it. How can I help?
00:59:14
>> Yeah.
00:59:14
>> And if the answer is go away and leave
00:59:16
us alone,
00:59:17
>> fine. If it's we could use more
00:59:19
resources here, we have trouble here or
00:59:21
we don't think our advertisers are,
00:59:23
>> how can I help? That's it.
00:59:26
>> Let me say one of the things it happened
00:59:28
at the Washington Post, too. blaming
00:59:29
these reporters like when Will Lewis was
00:59:31
like trashing the reporters is like it's
00:59:34
such an easy thing to do for people who
00:59:36
think they're innovative is like you all
00:59:38
suck and some of some of the things need
00:59:41
to change but to say it's it's a problem
00:59:43
of it's a bigger secular problem that's
00:59:46
the issue in terms of cost and
00:59:47
everything else and so just telling
00:59:49
people just breaking things is not
00:59:51
building things and that's that is
00:59:53
really hard to do when you're I that's
00:59:55
why we I never want to be at a big
00:59:57
company I don't know about you But I
00:59:59
like a being a small speedboat. And if
01:00:01
you make mistakes, you make mistakes. If
01:00:02
you don't, you don't. I That's how I
01:00:04
feel. But I don't know about you.
01:00:06
>> Oh, yeah. And this is this is a reason
01:00:07
why I've never built a billion-dollar
01:00:09
company. I saw companies, you know, when
01:00:11
they as soon as they have a CFO or
01:00:12
someone in HR, I'm like, time to sell.
01:00:15
But having been on involved with a lot
01:00:17
of big companies, I just shocked me. It
01:00:19
just shocked me right away. The first
01:00:21
thing I thought, well, we should do
01:00:21
this, this, and this. And the CEOs were
01:00:24
always, okay, they really had to think
01:00:25
about what would be required to get buy
01:00:27
in. Yeah.
01:00:29
>> to to potentially change the culture to
01:00:31
explain be thoughtful to
01:00:34
>> create the right incentive mechanisms to
01:00:36
ensure the behavior lined up. And I mean
01:00:38
you really are there's some amazing
01:00:40
things about a tanker, right? It can
01:00:42
carry whatever it is 100 million barrels
01:00:44
or 10 million barrels of a product. Uh
01:00:47
but you are you know you're steering a
01:00:49
tanker and it takes a lot of effort and
01:00:52
a big engine room and a lot of people.
01:00:53
It's it is a different there's so few
01:00:55
people that can go from a lot of people
01:00:59
I always say where are you in the
01:01:00
alphabet are you from A to D. I'm good
01:01:02
at A to D.
01:01:03
>> Yeah, me too.
01:01:03
>> Some people are good at coming in uh my
01:01:06
old CEO at L2 Ken Allard was good at
01:01:09
kind of D to D to H or I and some people
01:01:13
are can come into a company that's you
01:01:15
know gone public. Dar Kaser Shahi is is
01:01:17
amazing very good example is like great
01:01:20
from L to S. He came into a company that
01:01:23
was already jamming, scaling, huge
01:01:25
infrastructure, huge brand and said,
01:01:26
"Okay, somebody needs to get here."
01:01:30
>> And also, there's some people who come
01:01:31
into companies that are distressed who
01:01:33
take a company from, you know, whatever
01:01:35
it is, TZ. They come in and cut costs
01:01:38
and repackage something, take it through
01:01:40
bankruptcy, and make a lot of money.
01:01:42
>> Scott, your next book is The Alphabet of
01:01:44
Management. Yeah. All right. I want to
01:01:45
hear your prediction, though. So, I'm
01:01:47
I'm going to do I'm all confused and
01:01:48
jet-lagged right now. So, I thought we
01:01:50
were doing wins and fails. So, it's
01:01:51
okay. I'm going to do wins and fails.
01:01:53
But my win is and it just hasn't gotten
01:01:56
enough attention and it's just so
01:01:59
exciting and it's such a victory for the
01:02:00
west and I would argue it's actually in
01:02:02
many ways while Iran has overshadowed it
01:02:05
and inflation I people really don't
01:02:08
understand that something incredibly
01:02:11
wonderful is going on here
01:02:12
>> which is what
01:02:13
>> and that is three years ago Russia was
01:02:15
supposed to take Kev in a weekend.
01:02:16
>> Yeah. And today, Ukraine is striking
01:02:19
Russian Russian military infrastructure,
01:02:21
oil refineries, ports, bomber bases, and
01:02:24
semiconductor plants.
01:02:26
>> Hundreds sometimes sometimes more than a
01:02:28
thousand kilometers inside of Russia.
01:02:31
Putin is on the run.
01:02:33
>> He is. It's I told you when I told you
01:02:36
that a couple weeks ago that all these
01:02:37
people said Russia, he's in much more
01:02:39
trouble than you realize. But go ahead.
01:02:41
Just recently they've hit the Riazan
01:02:43
refinery, one of Russia's largest fuel
01:02:45
plants supplying the military. The
01:02:48
Touabsi refinery in the Black Sea.
01:02:50
They're going after ships. They're going
01:02:52
after the Black Sea fleet. Oil uh
01:02:54
infrastructure in Perm 700 miles from
01:02:58
the border.
01:02:58
>> Amazing.
01:02:59
>> The Yaz Yazavre refinery 700 kilometers
01:03:03
inside of Russia. And even the English
01:03:06
>> Imagine in this country that happened.
01:03:08
Jesus Christ.
01:03:09
If they started bombing oil fields in
01:03:12
Texas,
01:03:13
>> Buffalo, like or our military ships in
01:03:17
San Diego. Can you imagine?
01:03:19
>> No. No.
01:03:20
>> Or that's what I think about our place
01:03:23
our um in Canadians
01:03:25
>> or North Virginia building our
01:03:27
submarines. What if drones were hitting?
01:03:29
I mean, this is just
01:03:31
>> incredible. And it's a function of
01:03:32
drones. It's a function of it's also
01:03:36
quite frankly
01:03:37
>> you know we don't like to say this must
01:03:39
turning off Starlink in Russia has
01:03:40
seated huge advantage
01:03:42
>> to the Ukrainian army.
01:03:44
>> That's always been a benefit. No
01:03:45
question.
01:03:46
>> If you think about this
01:03:49
what are they doing? They're producing
01:03:50
thousands of long-range drones per month
01:03:53
uh in 2024. In 25 they're doing 3,000.
01:03:56
>> They're going to be a huge technology
01:03:58
country when this is all over.
01:04:00
>> Oh yeah. They they'll attract so much
01:04:02
capital assuming assuming
01:04:03
>> I'd go there if I was a young person.
01:04:04
That's exactly though the corruption is
01:04:06
really quite impossible to deal with but
01:04:09
um if I was a young person I'd go there
01:04:10
but there there are significant
01:04:12
corruption problems within that
01:04:13
government and
01:04:14
>> but there's a wonderful message being
01:04:16
sent to the world and that is um there's
01:04:18
a brutal lesson for authoritarians. Uh
01:04:20
corruption scales until it collides with
01:04:22
reality and technology and an motivated
01:04:25
populace. Russia built the PTM village
01:04:29
version of a superpower, yachts,
01:04:31
parades,
01:04:32
>> always
01:04:33
>> hypersonic missiles, um, shirtless horse
01:04:36
cosplay. And the Ukrainians, meanwhile,
01:04:40
>> I like that part. The Ukrainians,
01:04:41
meanwhile, build software, drones, and
01:04:43
engineers. And just some numbers here to
01:04:45
just talk about
01:04:47
>> how incredible this is.
01:04:49
>> You You're rushing them this morning.
01:04:50
What What
01:04:51
>> I'm not rushing you that you're
01:04:53
fascinated with are you about to go
01:04:55
interview? I'm not I'm not going
01:04:56
anywhere.
01:04:57
>> Seriously, what is it? The ghost of
01:04:59
Walter Montdale. Who's up next on on
01:05:01
with Cara Swisser? Russia has three
01:05:04
times the population, 10 times the
01:05:06
economy, nuclear weapons, and one of the
01:05:08
largest oil reserves in the world. And
01:05:10
Ukraine is kicking its ass.
01:05:11
>> I know. I love it.
01:05:12
>> And Ukraine, what does Ukraine have?
01:05:14
>> Ukraine has coders and hoodies.
01:05:16
>> Hoodies
01:05:17
>> turning Home Depot into Lockheed Martin.
01:05:20
I mean, these guys
01:05:22
>> amazing. So look, increasingly, and this
01:05:24
is a lesson for us, unfortunately right
01:05:26
now, the future belongs to the side that
01:05:27
can innovate faster than the other side.
01:05:29
>> The Iranians with the boats and the
01:05:31
drones and the
01:05:32
>> So that's my win. And it hasn't got
01:05:33
enough attention. This is so exciting
01:05:36
for the West, for Ukraine.
01:05:38
>> But can I make one caveat? If Putin
01:05:40
feels cornered and scared, he might do
01:05:42
something terrible.
01:05:44
>> Yeah, that's the fear.
01:05:45
>> You know that that's that to me.
01:05:46
>> Unless you're going to annihilate your
01:05:47
enemy, you got to give him a way out.
01:05:49
That's what that's Sunzu. And
01:05:50
>> yeah, but I don't think he think he
01:05:52
thinks that. I think he's terrified.
01:05:54
>> But this is a victory for for also for
01:05:56
the EU who has been steadfast in their
01:05:58
support unlike Americans.
01:05:59
>> Yeah.
01:06:00
>> Um I just I it's it's just very
01:06:02
exciting.
01:06:03
>> Trump will back him if they win. He'll
01:06:04
go like, "Oh, I'm with the winnows.
01:06:06
>> I'm with them. I was always behind him."
01:06:07
>> I was behind them. All right. What's
01:06:08
your fail?
01:06:09
>> My fail is I just I think the best way
01:06:12
Timothy Snder summarized it perfectly.
01:06:13
I've been trying to figure out a way to
01:06:15
describe what is effectively a $1.8 an
01:06:17
$8 billion slush fund that uh Trump and
01:06:20
his his spokesperson Blanch had been
01:06:23
trying to pitch and even even um some
01:06:26
Republicans are finally blanching.
01:06:28
>> And the best way to describe it is a
01:06:31
terrorist immunization fund.
01:06:33
>> Oh,
01:06:33
>> and that is commit violence on my behalf
01:06:36
and I will not only legally protect you,
01:06:38
I will pay you. Mhm.
01:06:39
>> In addition to the corruption, it sends
01:06:41
a signal to weirdos out there who are
01:06:44
cult members, that if something gets in
01:06:47
the way of Trump, whether it's people
01:06:50
turning out to a poll booth, whether
01:06:52
it's people showing up to inaugurate the
01:06:54
other guy, which I'm claiming was not
01:06:56
fairly elected, I want you to commit
01:06:58
acts of violence. I want you to engage
01:07:00
in terrorism.
01:07:02
>> And you will not only get off,
01:07:03
>> you get paid.
01:07:04
>> I'm going to pay you. Yep.
01:07:06
>> So, this is this is not a slush fund.
01:07:09
This is not only corruption, it's a
01:07:11
terrorist immunization fund.
01:07:13
>> I love that word.
01:07:14
>> And that is the way I can't take credit
01:07:16
for it. It's Timothy Snder, who's what I
01:07:17
I'm just obsessed with. Um, and I've had
01:07:20
on the pot a couple times who's at the
01:07:21
University of Toronto and talks a lot
01:07:22
about democracy and autotocracies. He's
01:07:24
fantastic and he's very brave.
01:07:26
>> He's the dude Heather Cox Richardson.
01:07:28
>> But this is That's right. But this is
01:07:31
imagine if uh a nation in the Gulf found
01:07:34
name your terrorist organization and
01:07:36
said you blow yourself up you commit
01:07:38
acts of violence. Not only we not
01:07:40
prosecute you, we've set aside money for
01:07:42
you.
01:07:42
>> Right. Well, they kind of did that.
01:07:44
>> Well, the PLO used to do that. The PLO
01:07:46
used to say any any suicide bomber we
01:07:49
going to give their family x amount of
01:07:51
dollars.
01:07:51
>> Yeah,
01:07:52
>> that's what this is.
01:07:53
>> Yeah, I agree.
01:07:54
>> And it's I Anyways, I hope the Democrats
01:07:56
adopt that pass. I don't I think the
01:07:59
Republicans tell us the others are all
01:08:01
very much against it. There's a lot
01:08:02
>> in all of these hearings. Uh why do you
01:08:04
support the terrorist immunization fund?
01:08:07
They should absolutely label it that.
01:08:09
That's what that's what this is.
01:08:11
Anyways, that's
01:08:12
>> that's my fail.
01:08:13
>> Terrorist baking fund. Maybe
01:08:15
immunization. Anyway, all right. That's
01:08:17
great. Those are both great and you're
01:08:18
going to have to have new ones for
01:08:19
Monday, just so you know. We want to
01:08:21
hear from you. Send us your questions
01:08:22
about business tech or whatever's on
01:08:24
your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot
01:08:26
to submit a question for the show or
01:08:27
call 85551 pivot. Before we go, I'm
01:08:30
taping a live interview of On with Cara
01:08:32
Swisser at the Rebecca Film Festival on
01:08:34
Monday, June 8th. It is not
01:08:36
>> Someone's got their nose off Murdoch's
01:08:38
ass.
01:08:38
>> Uh, no, I'm not. I was I was booked
01:08:42
before the deal and months ago. Anyway,
01:08:45
instead of Walter Montdale, you're not
01:08:47
invited to the special dinner with
01:08:49
Robert Dairo, but I am. I'll be talking
01:08:51
to comedian, actor, and podcast pioneer
01:08:53
Mark Marin. not Montdale.
01:08:55
>> He's fantastic.
01:08:56
>> Uh and he has there's a new doc about
01:08:57
him and he's also a great actor and
01:08:59
funny comedian and everything else. He
01:09:00
loves to trash statement of his.
01:09:02
>> What?
01:09:03
>> My favorite and I use it all the time.
01:09:05
>> What? What?
01:09:05
>> He's like, "Do you realize Democrats
01:09:07
literally annoyed America into fascism.
01:09:10
>> I love that."
01:09:11
>> Anyway, he's great. He's really great.
01:09:12
Tickets are available now at the
01:09:14
dbecafilm.com/audio.
01:09:16
Scott, what Scott's referring to is the
01:09:18
Murdoch's. James Murdoch owns Tbeca. Um
01:09:20
we will see you there. Okay, that's the
01:09:22
show. Thanks for listening to PI and be
01:09:24
sure Pivotarian become a Pibbitarian. Be
01:09:27
sure to like and subscribe to our
01:09:29
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01:09:31
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