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I wonder if Donald Trump is watching Heated Rivalry. Interesting. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York
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Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser and welcome to 2026.
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Scott is still away at uh undisclosed location. I can't go into it, but there's so much going on that I've
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assembled a super group of smart folks to help me cover it all. We've got Don
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Lemon from the Don Lemon Show, Stephanie Rule from MS Now's The 11th Hour, and
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Brooke Hammerly, communication specialist, podcaster, and culture guru of Tine, the Pop Culture Monday's
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newsletter. I want to talk about 2026 going forward. So, I put this team together that could talk about anything.
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Welcome everybody. We've got to dig into a bunch of things and each everyone's
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going to sort of focus on Stephanie with business, Don politics, Brooke with culture, but anybody could weigh in on
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anything at all. So any thoughts would be great. Um, so President Trump says the US is in is quote in charge of
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Venezuela following the capture of Venezuelan President Nicholas Maduro and his wife over the weekend. As we record,
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the two are set to be arraigned in a Manhattan federal court on drug trafficking weapons charges. Trump is
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also putting pressure on Venezuela's acting leader, warning if she doesn't do
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what's right, she's going to pay a very big price. I don't know what that means.
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He's not backing Venezuela's opposition leader reportedly because he's annoyed
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she won the Nobel Prize over him and then didn't give it to him. Trump is now
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threatening Colombia. Colombia saying and saying Cuba looks like it's quote ready to fall and talking about taking
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Greenland again. I don't know what's in his wedies. It seems to be part of his
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Donroe doctrine as he's coined it after the Monroe doctrine for those who know
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history. Um it sounds just as idiotic as it seems. Uh Don, let's start with you.
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There's a lot to get to, but let's start with the big picture. What is happening
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over there at the White House? And what do you make of all this? Obviously, there's Epstein issues, uh, economy
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issues, healthc care issues that he may be trying to avoid, but thoughts? >> Well, I think the obvious is that it's
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chaos. I mean, it's chaotic for the country. It's it's bad for the country.
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Um, I think that I believe and I think Cara, maybe you you have said this as well and I agree with you if you did say
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say it is that I I think that Donald Trump has been surprised by how much he's been able to get away with. And
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every time he gets away with something, it emboldens him to do something else. Uh, to do something that's even worse. I
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was listening to um a podcast over the holidays and it had quotes from Barack Obama uh in there
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and everything he said about what was going to happen in the second Donald Trump administration really came true.
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And he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, he said, "We've seen this movie before
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and we know the sequel is always worse." And so the more Donald Trump gets away
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with, if he is allowed to pardon people and there's not enough uproar about it
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and nothing happens and he's going to um pick he's going to arrest people without
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due process on the streets or detain them uh even if they're American citizens or he's going to invade
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sovereign countries. Now I think everyone on this panel and everyone can agree that something needed to be done
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about Maduro. He's a bad person, but it's just the way that he did it. And um
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look, how can a tyrant, >> right, >> arrest or detain another tyrant?
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>> It doesn't make sense. >> Rather easily, as it turns out, >> rather easily. And just real quickly,
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what he's doing though, I believe, is setting a precedent because um from from
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the from what he said is that Maduro was this and that. He's a tyrant and he was
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a criminal and he did all these things. He um he tried to overturn an election or he did he influenced an election,
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which is the very same things that Donald Trump tried to do. and he's also a criminal. So,
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>> which Gavin Newsome pointed out online. >> So, why does Donald Trump get to get
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away with it and Maduro doesn't? It doesn't make sense. >> So, make sense.
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>> Make it make sense. Yeah. Make it make sense to make US oil companies. They've
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talked about that into Venezuela to rebuild the industry and that happened in I think 98. Um, as of this recording,
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oil stocks are surging and the price of oil is holding steady. Um, talk a little
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bit about the business implications because most people feel like it's about
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oil, but I think it's about a whole lot more than just that, obviously. >> Well, what it's not about is drugs,
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right? Donald Trump uh over a dozen times this weekend said oil. Uh, we heard Marco Rubio say this is about
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freeing oil for the people. What people? And to me, one of the biggest tells was
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on Air Force One when Donald Trump was asked, "Did you speak to American oil
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businesses before?" And he said, "I spoke to them before and I spoke to them
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after." Okay? Congress was not notified, but businesses were. That's how
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autocracies run. That is not how a democracy runs. And it's important to remember that American oil companies
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entered into risky deals to develop oil, Venezuelan oil, years and years ago. Those deals were cancelled by the
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Venezuelan government. >> Yes, correct. Before Maduro. What's happening now? We are now making an
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aggressive move that are going to we're now going to spend an enormous amount of
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money and human capital, sending American troops down there for us for US oil businesses, who by the way, it's
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unclear if they actually asked the president for this or not because yes, they're all going to shuffle down there
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and figure out how we going to make a whole lot of money out of this. But remember, it's not like Donald Trump
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saying today, "We now control Venezuela." They're not going to turn on
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the spots and money is now going to pour into this country. This will now cost our government
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billions of dollars, right, to to to now go down there and to to secure it. And now these companies are going to decide,
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are they going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars or at least a hundred billion dollars in the next
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decade because that's how long it's going to take to then get this oil business opportunity to come to
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fruition. My question is who are the American people? We know in the last 10 months all that Donald Trump has done to
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please the tech community or all that he's trying to do to please Wall Street.
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And and I think this is a quick important reminder when they say Wall Street loves this. I spoke to a bank CEO
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yesterday that said, "We were positioned for this. We went long Venezuela. We
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went long Pedesa, which is the stateowned oil and gas company, a week ago, and they were positioned because
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the market's going." Investors can sell everything tomorrow, right? Something
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there's a there's a a conflict. They can buy today, they can sell tomorrow. They're out. What hurts
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government and the American people? We can't make giant long-term, you know, we
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have to make giant long-term decisions as a government. We don't operate like
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day traders. And so when Wall Street says this works for me today, it works for them today until China tomorrow
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says, "Oh, hold on. Are you ready for what we're going to do with Taiwan?" If
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this is Trump's strong man move, giddy up. Look what we could do here. And so
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that's where Wall Street, and I'll stop talking now. That's where Wall Street is
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sort of two minds. On one hand, they're like, "Money's coming in. This is an
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opportunity. Great, we're going to unleash this. But on the other, now that there's no rules in the jungle, right?
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Now that we're in we're breaking international law and and world norms, what could happen around the world? And
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that's what >> the other thing is for now. For now, cuz he's got a short amount of time here.
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It's only a couple of months and then they're stuck. Brooke, she was just
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saying on social like all the things that are going on, MAGA really reacted in very different ways. Obviously
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Marjorie Taylor Green was against it, but a lot first. America first. But some of them weren't. They were they were um
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there was also a lot of there was a ton of stuff going viral on Tik Tok such as Madero's outfit. I mean let let's be
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clear the cuz cuz the kids are driving the culture the cultural conversation. Maduro is now a fashion influencer. It's
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unbelievable that picture of him on the airplane in the it turns out to be a Nike suit. It's a Nike tech suit and he
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had what people were saying where it was like an eye patch but it was clearly goggles to cover his eyes. But there are
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so many memes about his fashion. The viral memes have gone crazy. They have him as a fashion icon. I mean your
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friend Baratundai posted a picture of himself in the sweatsuit saying like I already own this. It's
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>> comeing becomes comedy. It's become kind of serious and it couldn't be less
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funny. Correct. the core of all of this, right? We can't while we're criticizing
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what the president did or the way he did it, Maduro is a horrible, awful, awful man, an oppressive leader. And so
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Venezuelans and Venezuelan's Americans are thrilled to see this man out of power. But Cara, you're asking the most
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important question with now what? But the absurdity of him now being a fashion icon is so absurd in every way.
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>> But that shows you where our culture is going. And I believe it shows you what
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the the just the >> the grossness that the MAGA folks have just injected into society in the
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culture. And it's also social media as well. >> It's social media. I mean I for me it's
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not as much MAGA as it is the kids that are turning you know they have they've
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created like a DJ set with him and he's now become this sort of you know Chay
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Graa kind of person that the kids are like you know he's somebody to now look
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up to Don I think it's way more Tik Tok nation than it is MAGA and this is going
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to be so challenging for America first MAGA like I'm thinking about my mother
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Louise Rule who always argues like I'm sorry Stephanie we can't thinking about
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foreign policy. There's kids in West Virginia who can't even go to a good
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school. People who live in West Virginia aren't think certainly or or around the
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you know that original MAGA base who says I'm a forgotten American >> is not being remembered when it comes to
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what we're doing. >> Well, MAGA is morphing right now. Don't don't forget that MAGA that Tik Tok is
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becoming MAGA. Remember who's going to take over the algorithm of Tik Tok? That's going to be the Ellison. They are
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MAGA. If you are on Tik T Yeah. Well, they're going to have >> well they Oracle will own 15%. Let me be
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clear. >> So, but but let me say if you are on TikTok and if you if you are you've
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noticed that your algorithm has changed and if you are if there's more pro MAGA
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stuff that gets elevated than stuff that is anti-MAGA or that just tells the truth about Donald Trump. So, Tik Tok I
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believe from my experience with Tik Tok that it is MAGA. >> It is MAGA. Last question for for for for you, Don,
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and maybe Stephanie, you can add to it, is what is um what does Congress do? They come back this week, right, at some
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point. Um what happens here? What do they do? Because they've been rather quiet about, you know, uh Rubio was all
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over the all over the TV, all over the place talking about, you know, justifications which are different than
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Donald Trump's just, but they were talking it up, that's for sure. So, what
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happens next? Well, I think Congress will make a lot of noise and then do nothing as they always do sadly. I mean,
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they need to do more. They could start some sort of procedure. They can just do hearings. They can demand something. You
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know, Chuck Schumer, you know, actually said the fbomb. Well, that, you know, to
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hear that coming out of Chuck Schumer's mouth, but he should have been he should
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have had that energy a long time ago. He should have had this years ago before Row was overturned. You know what I
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mean? Before Donald Trump got elected the second time, they should have had the balls, as you said, to do something.
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and they're not. So, I blame both the Democrats and the Republicans. I mean,
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obviously the Republicans are >> What's next from your perspective? >> I think the Republicans because if women
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were in charge, we know how to multitask, right? And when you think about we know how to multitask and and
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while Venezuela is hugely important, it's going to occupy Congress. It's not
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occupying the daily lives of the American people. And the American people are about to wrestle with soaring health
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care costs, affordability problems, and we've got I'm not I'm certainly not
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going to say a labor crisis by any means, but we've got a ten a tenuous labor situation uh happening in this
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country right now. So So lawmakers are going to go back. They've got to deal
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with Venezuela, the amount of effort and time and money we're going to spend
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there. And then the the issues facing American people's daily lives, which are
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the reason Donald Trump's poll numbers were getting lower and lower in the months leading into year's end. And step
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finally, Brooke, what's the next viral thing besides this ridiculous Maduro outfit thing?
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>> I mean, I think we're going to see more of the ridiculousness. I think we're
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going to see like the right now we're seeing the fact that he's in the prison
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that P. Diddy was in and Luigi. But then here's the question, Cara. two weeks
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from now in like truly two weeks from now in Davos when every world leader and business leader all gets together and
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talks about how are we going to collaborate and make the world better and stronger together. What's going to
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be the theme this year? Strong man who done it. I I Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is it? You're going
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>> I am not. >> I can't wait to see what Jeff Bezos wears because that's what we all care
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about with his >> All right, moving on. Yeah, >> I honestly think the people who attend
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Davos are are sort of in on it, you know, that they want the money. So, yeah, I don't think there's going to be
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a theme where, you know, >> okay, that's a great point because but but but okay, but here's the problem
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then, Don. The idea of Davos is supposed to be about thoughtful leadership. True.
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And if where we are right now with our business and political leaders is if you can't beat them, join them. Let me get
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in on the hustle. Then I guess that's my question. Every year it's what is the
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Davos man? Well, what the heck is he if he's just somebody who's in on the
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crypto hustle? >> I think they're gonna sound a lot like Donald Trump on Air Force One with
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Lindsey Graham standing next to him about to drop to his knees and, you know, shine his shoes or whatever he's
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going to do. They They said it out loud. They said this is they said this is about oil. They said Donald Trump said
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this is about oil. And Lindsey Graham said with all of the deals and all of this happening, we're going to become
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more prosperous with all of these new that. So that's what it's about and
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that's what Davos is going to be about. That's it. Yeah. Is Davos relevant?
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>> Okay. Then when are we going to talk about debt and deficits? If we're going
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to become more prosperous this way, it's going to cost us an enormous amount of
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money. So in Davos, where the biggest investors and Bond daddies go, what do they think about this kind of spending?
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All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back, we'll talk about what a
00:14:23
buzzy, lowbudget Canadian show means for the future of entertainment. I know you
00:14:27
guys love this one. I'm back with Don Lemon, Stephanie Rule, and Brook Hammer.
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Now we're going to get into something a little lighter. We have uh all the time
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to take a lot uh we had a lot of time to take in more TV shows and movies over the holiday break. Um uh let's talk
00:14:41
about the breakout star of the past few weeks, Heated Rivalry, which is your favorite thing. Um also Tons apparently.
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Uh Stephanie, you can weigh in too. Uh explain very briefly a cultural impact of the show and talk what it means from
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a business perspective. This was a lowbudget Canadian production, not unlike K-pop Demon Hunter. Same thing,
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Canadian. Stephanie said earlier what was the occupying the minds of American people. This is what's occupying the
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minds of American people, which is Heated Rivalry, a gay hockey drama series coming out of Canada. A lot of
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people think it's HBO because it's been distributed by HBO, but it was made by
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this country. >> Yeah. In the US, it's it was made by this streaming platform in Canada called
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uh Crave. And it costs 3 to 5 million an episode. Uh, compare that to Stranger Things, which I think it was like 50
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million finale episode. And what is what is dominating the conversation right now? It's heated rivalry in every
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aspect. I mean, people are like, Don, you've rewatched it, right? This is a phenomenon. People are re-watching it.
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People are not just watching >> as the expert gay man on on the But it's not just that's when you said
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it was a gay story. It's actually a love story. >> It's a love story. It is a love story,
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but people are calling it the gay hockey show. But >> but it is sex heavy. It is sexy.
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>> But the most important episode of that, episode five, had no sex. And what
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you're seeing, I think it's a really interesting thing. I mean, first of all,
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do you know that according to Pornhub, 47% of viewers of gay porn are straight women.
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>> So that's, you know, that's just the way it is. >> Straight women are talking about this
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show. Straight women love this show. But Brooke, let me let me let me I want to challenge you on this. Is it sex heavy?
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Or is it just people Is it just that people are not used to seeing gay sex? Right? Because I've seen I've seen
00:16:36
straight shows that have lots of sex, more sex than this show, and no one says it's sex heavy. It's just that they're
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they're maybe not used to seeing gay men being intimate on screen in that way.
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>> I think Cara's favorite show, Hunting Lives Walked, so so the these boys could
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run. That was the that was the amused bouch to this, right? >> My experience in watching Hunting Wives
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where I would leave like my family room and watch it in a private area. I had the same experience
00:17:06
>> because I had kids running around my house. Yeah. You had mail. >> I was watching the rivalry on the plane
00:17:12
last night and I was like, >> "Oh my god." Okay, so wait, you know
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what it is? Wait, you know what it is I say sex heavy? Well, no. When there's
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the presence when you're aware that oral sex is taking place and you have children in
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your house like like that's sex heavy TV for me that like we've established
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regular missionary sex happens on TV and both those shows feature a different well talk about the two of them together
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because you know he hunting wise is coming back for a second season he rivalry is
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>> two more seasons so here's the thing I think it's you have a bunch of unknowns
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and we're also watching in particular. I mean the there are three main guys which
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are Connor Story who plays Ilia who speaks if you watch Russian talk which is Tik Tok with Russians. They lose
00:18:02
they're losing their minds over his accent and his Russian when not just his
00:18:06
accent speaking English but his Russian. This is a Texan born and raised who started taking Russian lessons a week
00:18:12
before filming. It's phenomenal. You're watching uh Connor's story become a star
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and right before our eyes star is born. We hope that fame doesn't corrupt him.
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Hudson Williams who is plays uh Shane Hollander is an unknown that is just having an unbelievable moment. And then
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the more the most known I loved him in Shitz Creek was Francois Arnode who plays Scott uh Hunter and he is the one
00:18:35
who had that pivotal pivotal episode which is episode five which has zero sex. So I think the they bring you in.
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It's sexy >> story. It's sexy and let let me Brooke just brought up this idea of
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unknowns and lower costs and stuff like that. Talk a little bit about this from a like because right now the costs of
00:18:55
Hollywood are massive and that sometimes they pay off. Look, Avatar is killing it
00:18:59
at the box office, especially abroad. Um, but there's a lot of these something
00:19:03
when I interviewed Ted Sarandos years ago, he was like, there's no there's
00:19:07
only going to be the big ones and the little ones and the middle is gone. But that's why the beauty of this show
00:19:14
>> is the same stroke of beauty of independent media, right? Before independent media existed, when there
00:19:21
was just giant pillars, right? When there was three television networks, when there was three papers of note,
00:19:27
when there was three movie studios, you had to work your way up and be part of this giant conglomerate and marketing
00:19:33
machine. And that's the only way that content could be distributed. Now, if you make something magical, it can find
00:19:42
legs. It can find a home. And and that's sort of the beauty of right we talk so
00:19:47
much about the the problems of social media and all the you know the the bad actors and so on and so forth but but
00:19:53
when you now have the system broken and these unknowns can create something on a
00:19:59
small platform and then it gets distributed to me like that's extraordinary and that's something that
00:20:03
couldn't have happened decades ago back when they were you know three studio
00:20:07
heads with their ar with their arms folded running Hollywood >> they were breaking what she said what
00:20:12
she said what she said. Cara, Cara, look, I want to say, remember when we had this conversation, we talked
00:20:20
about, you know, some of the things you see on independent media and independent
00:20:22
journalists and podcast. Um, you know, it's it's done by a a a skeleton crew,
00:20:28
what you would call for broadcast, and you walk into a big broadcast studio office and you go, "What are all these
00:20:33
people doing here?" >> And so, Stephanie is right. This is where the media is going. There will be
00:20:38
big breakthroughs. There's going to be the big guys and then I still consider
00:20:41
myself a little guy. there's going to be a little guy like me. Um, but this is
00:20:46
where it's going and I think it's actually fantastic because something that's small can have lift as you say
00:20:54
and something that's big where it's overthought like what Stephanie says
00:20:57
with these guys and people sitting around going it's got to grow through this or whatever that's not where we are
00:21:01
anymore. We're not there anymore. People want it a little messy and authentic. I
00:21:06
think we're in a transition period and I think there's space for both and I think
00:21:10
that's what's awesome about it. >> What do you guys think? What I'm afraid
00:21:13
and so I'd love your thoughts is that with the success and the popularity, I
00:21:16
mean it's become the cultural zeitgeist. You have Steven Colbear talking about he
00:21:20
was a bossy bottom. You had Jeff Goldlum asked last night on the red carpet at the awards show whether or not he's want
00:21:27
>> you bring up a good point. This is going to change society I believe like Will
00:21:30
and Grace did. I think >> but what happens if it changes the show where they're like oh now that we're so
00:21:34
popular we're gonna instead of three to five million we're going to go to 20 to
00:21:38
30 million that I feel will change the heartbeat of the show >> got a short these all these shows now
00:21:44
have such a shorter life >> if the budgets go triple right these kids are now huge celebrities or
00:21:51
happened with Glee >> or maybe the example that you're pointing to is remember the first season
00:21:56
of nobody wants this okay nobody expected it you loved every minute of it. It was like what is this? It's
00:22:03
touching me. It's connecting me. And then the second app which had which had
00:22:08
so much hype. >> It was branding had so much branding and product placement. All the people like
00:22:15
all the women like me who felt that show who were connected to that show then felt like you were being sold in Airbnb
00:22:22
experience. I felt it was awesome. And I felt like uh I I I I felt like they had
00:22:27
this magic and it's still I'm not knocking the show, but they lost their
00:22:31
magic of being this. We're just going to make this that nobody wants this. Literally the title, nobody wants this
00:22:37
and we're just going to make it and it connected with everybody. And then when
00:22:40
season 2 came and they product placed the hell out of it, there was a lot more like I'm a difficulty of having you know
00:22:46
the long timelines especially with the streamers like I'm thinking of Pluribus
00:22:50
another popular show. >> Oh for God's sake. I listen I for a mosquito just shutting
00:22:56
the show on me I shall not won the what did it win the awards last night >> it doesn't matter like five people I
00:23:04
love the show but you cannot put it in the same breath as heated rivalry I shall not
00:23:10
>> but can I jump in here please not it is >> can I jump in here and tell you I don't
00:23:15
think it's going to change because Jacob Tyranny who you know Brooke is the he's
00:23:19
a Canadian creator of this it's adapt they're They're adapting a book. They
00:23:23
have to stay somewhat true to the book. A book written by a woman. And so, and and I've been watching him cuz I'm
00:23:30
obsessed. My husband's like, "You're obsessed with this." And so, I think
00:23:33
that Jacob Tyranny knows that it cannot change. It's got to it's got to be
00:23:36
authentic and it's got to stay grounded. But I here's what I just want to say
00:23:40
this one thing. You know how Will and Grace changed the culture and made it okay for, you know, gay people to kiss
00:23:46
uh on TV or just to have gay plot lines on television. Uh, I believe that this is doing the same thing to the culture
00:23:52
because as Brooke mentioned, straight guys are talking about it. Hockey podcast uh are are talk podcasters are
00:24:00
talking about it. People who do sports, they're talking about it. Yeah. And so
00:24:04
Yeah. Empty netters podcast with a bunch of white boys who are sports hockey fanatics.
00:24:11
>> Last thing you would expect, they are crying. They It's the biggest green flag
00:24:15
of men I've ever seen. I've never been a people. Can I say one thing, Cara? Can I
00:24:19
Can I tell you a story? >> Yes. Go ahead, please. >> I I Okay, I'm going to tell you a story.
00:24:24
>> Going to get it in a second. >> So, I don't have a sports background
00:24:26
whatsoever. >> Yeah. >> When I was a senior in college, I went to Marty GR in New Orleans
00:24:32
>> and a boy took me to a dinner at then senior in college's house, Payton
00:24:37
Manning. It was a big I at the time I didn't even know who he was. He was about to win the Heisman right after
00:24:42
Martyra ended. I'm sitting at a long long long dinner table of all of these miss football players. I know nothing
00:24:49
about Miss. I know nothing about college football. But looking at a table of 45 boys, I say to the guy next to me, "What
00:24:57
is it like? What is the mix go with, you know, like uh gay players on the team and straight players on the team?"
00:25:04
Okay, this question came because I'm a girl who doesn't know sports, but I know
00:25:08
math and probability and statistics would tell you when dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of men are in a
00:25:15
group, there's some gay ones in there. When I asked this question at this dinner at Payton Manning's house in 19
00:25:21
or his parents house in 1997, my date practically threw me in the bayou, flipped the table out, right? For real.
00:25:29
For real. I mean, a guy hit the table with both hands. What? Are you kidding me? I mean, like it was I was on the
00:25:36
fast train back to Jersey and here we are 30 years later and nobody's saying
00:25:42
you play hockey, you're gay. It's probability and statistics. There's
00:25:46
going to be some gay guys on the team. >> That's never an issue for women's
00:25:48
sports. Um, who's straight here is what we say. But may I point something out,
00:25:52
Brooke? Erroneous as you think I am, who among us has been invited to do a cameo
00:25:57
unheated rivalry. Swiss on his camera. >> No way. Cara, were you? >> Yeah.
00:26:04
>> And are you doing >> [ __ ] >> You were a total [ __ ] I was, by
00:26:08
the way, a puck bunny when I was in high school. >> All the cameos, my friend.
00:26:11
>> I know. You're >> What's a puck bunny? >> Okay. >> It's, you know, I grew
00:26:16
>> Is that like a lacrosstitute? >> Is that like a groupy? Is that a
00:26:21
>> It's a groupy of hockey players. Yeah, puck bunny. You were for the Rangers. I
00:26:25
grew up in Ry. That's where the Rangers were. We were puck bunnies. And our parents were like, "If you can get us
00:26:30
Ranger tickets, have fun." >> Wow. [ __ ] you. >> Brooke, can I ask you? Do you like um uh
00:26:38
Ilia and what's his name? I can never remember. Which love story do you like
00:26:43
more? Do you like Ilia or do you do you like Scott? >> I was a Scott Hunter because that scene,
00:26:48
but I don't love Scott's boyfriend. I'm just going to be honest. He's like a
00:26:51
short king. He's great, but he's not my guy. But Ilia and and Shane, I'm
00:26:56
obsessed with. But Ilia, I mean I Connor's story, there's this video of him that he did with Interview magazine
00:27:03
where he's wearing a uh you know a Gold's Gym T-shirt and he's lip syncing
00:27:07
to Madonna's Like a Prayer >> and he does this all over and he Well, no, that's a different one. But this is
00:27:14
one where he does this. Yeah, he's Anyway, he's he's very I I can't explain
00:27:19
it, but this thing has gone so viral. They're showing it in nightclubs. DJs are interjecting the the video sports
00:27:27
bars. They're showing it. There there's a very funny Tik Tok that's part of the
00:27:30
culture in newsletter this week that is these two women that are saying like dinner in a movie and their girlfriends
00:27:35
eating Chinese food out of with their chopsticks on the floor watching this 30 secondond clip over and over again.
00:27:42
>> I wonder if tuna melts are going to make a comeback because of this. Brooke,
00:27:46
>> I Okay, we're stopping now. Let me tell you my favorite. >> I wonder if Donald Trump is watching
00:27:51
Heated Rivalry. >> You know that M I can just imagine the conversation that like they Lindsey
00:27:57
Graham is watching it. >> There's so many gays in MAGA and Republicans. Of course they're watching
00:28:02
it. >> Allegedly. All right, let's go on a quick break and when we come back, I
00:28:08
want to know what you all think about the biggest stories of 2026. Don, Stephanie, Brooke, we're back. Moving
00:28:13
along. It's a new year. I want uh to know what each of you think will be the
00:28:17
biggest stories of 2026. I want you to spin it forward. Don, you'll start politics or whatever. I don't whatever
00:28:23
you think, but let's politics would be great, but whatever you think is the biggest story going forward.
00:28:27
>> Well, I think the biggest story going forward is going to be the fracturing of
00:28:30
MAGA. It's already started. The MAGA media uh is starting with the Megan Kelly's and the Candace Owens and the
00:28:36
Benny Johnson's world. >> Yeah, they're beefing. And I think that that is that is the beginning of the end
00:28:42
of MAGA. That's what I believe the biggest story is going to be moving forward.
00:28:46
>> Yeah. Okay. All right. >> Okay. For me, you know, I'm going to
00:28:49
pick the economy because at the end of the day, I think how people vote I is truly rooted in their pocketbook and and
00:28:57
how they live. And what's interesting is the economy is growing, but its growth
00:29:02
is fragile and it's really in the palm of Trump's hands. like whether the
00:29:06
economy builds or weakens depends entirely on Trump's deglobalization agenda, right? Tariffs, mass
00:29:15
deportations. Um, so, so I just think where we go in this K-shaped economy, right, where the rich have gotten richer
00:29:22
and the poor have gotten poorer and we have, and that's only getting exaggerated this year. Where we're
00:29:28
headed um is is where I'm laser beam focused. >> Is it really growing or is it astroturf?
00:29:33
That's why cuz that K thing I'm like I don't is that growth real because people
00:29:38
are a lot poorer and you need more people being able to buy things than fewer people being able to buy them. So
00:29:45
I don't know if that >> yes but you could being it with Venezuela could be there's ways to goose
00:29:51
it right to goose the economy. >> The economy is certainly being gooseed. We could have more federal intervention.
00:29:57
We could have more farm aid bills of the like. But remember, when you're facing
00:30:02
less and less regulation in your business, which is what we're facing right now, you're going to see
00:30:06
businesses spend and grow. The thing that's standing in the way is tariffs. And Trump is fat, right fat in the
00:30:13
middle of it. But you're right. Is it just astroturf? Because Cara talks about
00:30:18
this all the time. When you look under the Magnificent Seven, under those big giant tech companies that aren't getting
00:30:24
hurt, they're being held by AI, that aren't getting hurt by mass deportations. when you look under there,
00:30:29
lots of those companies are struggling and if consumers um don't have the money
00:30:34
to spend or the money that they're spending doesn't go so far. So that's my
00:30:38
point is it's a fragile economy and the person who has his hands on the steering
00:30:42
wheel is Donald Trump and let's see what he does. >> So what do you what do you imagine being
00:30:46
the best case for him and the worst? >> I actually think the best case for him
00:30:51
would be if the tariffs were to be ruled uh illegal. That would be his most graceful exit. He could say, "I wanted
00:30:59
to make America great. I wanted to bring manufacturing back, but they wouldn't
00:31:03
let me." Companies would say, "Great, we're not having to face these tariffs.
00:31:07
The happy days are here again." I don't think that's going to happen or it's
00:31:11
going to be super messy. We'll soon find out, right? Trump is the first to say
00:31:15
the market is the economy. It's not. The market has done very well. It could do
00:31:20
even better. But under that, what is the world going to look like with kids coming out of college, can't get jobs,
00:31:25
when our health, one of the things is we were looking for pajamas yesterday for something? And one
00:31:32
of the things that's noticeable is there's fewer items, harder to find and
00:31:36
more expensive. Even if you're, you know, it was kind of not, it's noticeable in every store now.
00:31:41
>> Was this online or in real life? >> No, it was offline. It was offline.
00:31:44
>> But what's noticeable, Cara, >> but that's how most people shop. What's
00:31:48
noticeable is the big have gotten bigger and the small are getting smaller. Small
00:31:53
and mid-siz businesses could not survive tariffs. If you're a giant company, you
00:31:57
could frontload your inventory. You can keep cost down. If you're a small business in Georgetown and you're
00:32:03
selling toys and books and pajamas, you can't weather storms like this. >> This was targeted.
00:32:08
>> Can I I just want to say this? I think the best case scenario for him would to
00:32:11
be to completely fail with the economy because Donald Trump does not like to admit that he is wrong. And so if the
00:32:17
economy goes off of a cliff, that will be the biggest wakeup call. It's like an
00:32:21
it's like an addict. You can't they have to hit rock bottom before they make a
00:32:26
change. And I think Donald Trump the economy has to hit rock bottom for Donald Trump and Republicans to
00:32:31
understand that he's [ __ ] up the economy. >> But let me just make one final point and
00:32:35
then >> we're talking about the economy for for the United States of America. Donald
00:32:40
Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful tech giants in the world. And while we think, "Oh my gosh, look at
00:32:49
those tech guys kissing his ass. No way. They have played him." A ma AI is going
00:32:54
to change every element of the way that we live and we are now going into an AI universe where there is absolutely no
00:33:01
regulation. The federal government is even stopping state regulations. So these this group of individuals, these
00:33:07
10 15 guys are becoming more powerful and more successful than any people we've seen in our lifetimes. And that to
00:33:15
me is the story to focus on the power they have amassed. Like the whole like let's eat the rich. Eat the rich is over
00:33:22
here. The mega rich that tiny sliver of universe of people are so extraordinarily powerful and have so
00:33:30
much control. I don't think so realize richer than beyond belief. >> Yes.
00:33:35
>> Correct. Correct. Absolutely. So, Brooke, what do you think the biggest
00:33:38
cultural story of whatever you want? >> God, there's so many. Um, but I the
00:33:43
thing that I'm thinking about as we were talking about Hollywood and the business
00:33:47
of Hollywood, which is again not my business, but as a voyer and as a cultural sort of, you know, fan guru
00:33:53
>> guru. Uh, by the way, my newsletter exists because of Stephanie and Cara,
00:33:57
because of you guys. But um I think it's the marketing of these movies. For example, I look at um at uh Timothy
00:34:05
Shalomé's movie Marty Supreme. This is he is a very genius. It makes a lot of
00:34:12
sense why he and Kylie Jenner of the Kardashian world are are paired up. They have very similar mindsets of marketing,
00:34:18
how to market. This movie was marketed in a way they have never seen before. If you watch Tik Tok or whatnot, people a
00:34:26
lot of people were very unsure about the movie. They saw it, they came out, they're like, I don't know if I loved
00:34:30
it. I really don't know. But I went to it. I went to it because of the marketing. This was not done in a
00:34:35
traditional roll out like night the night shows the late night. He did the sphere. He did blimps. He got he did a
00:34:44
fashion drop and had all of these sports icons wearing Marty Supreme swag. It's
00:34:49
really a whole thing. And when you're seeing like, you know, there's a YouTube
00:34:53
show Allen's World, that is now I think the New York Times just did a big story
00:34:56
on it. They nine like I don't know billions and billions and billions of views a month. And this is these are
00:35:02
shorts. This is the stuff that you know the your friends Meg Whitman and what's
00:35:07
his name want to kill themselves over because these shows are >> Quibby directionally correct.
00:35:13
>> Directionally correct. Just did have the right stuff I guess. But the fact is I
00:35:18
think how like you're telling these stories if whether it's big budget or
00:35:21
small budget the marketing the way people are connecting to audiences they are looking at this now and saying oh
00:35:27
it's not about screening >> it's not doing that well for the price.
00:35:32
>> No but Cara imagine if the Leonardo DiCaprio movie that came out last year
00:35:36
one battle after another this extraordinary film. I'm not saying it should have had the Timothy Shalamé uh
00:35:46
Kardashian their marketing plan, but had they employed more creative renegade marketing in a in a different way?
00:35:55
>> People now are like, "What's that Leo movie? Where can I see it?" And it was
00:35:59
months ago. I think they missed th those are old school and I'm not calling them
00:36:03
old but like old school Hollywood mega celebrities where they probably had to beg Leo to do any press at all cuz he's
00:36:11
Leo. Now you're looking back saying if they would have employed some of these
00:36:15
like renegade kind of tactics, it may have had a bigger impact. >> Stephanie is right. You've got to have
00:36:20
uh either guerilla marketing. It's got to be social media heavy. It's gota it's
00:36:25
not just you can't rely on the old things of we'll put an ad here and we'll
00:36:29
do that doesn't work anymore doesn't play >> traditional media doesn't work in this
00:36:34
environment although sometimes it does of course the Vanity Fair Susie Wilds piece blew up
00:36:39
>> I'm talking about movies I'm talking about getting to the guys of culture
00:36:42
>> right >> listen everybody was ripping all over Vanity Fair that they were like what a m
00:36:47
you know during the whole Olivia Ryan thing blah blah blah we stopped talking about that as soon as they nailed their
00:36:53
Susie Wild cover Those photos those photos those photos were what was this the >> I refuse I refuse to insult those
00:37:00
photos. I take issue with everybody. >> I love them. >> I take huge issue with everyone going
00:37:06
after Caroline Levit and her lip injections in in we can't in one hand complain about decency and complain
00:37:13
about a president, you know, saying things that are rude or mean and then go after Caroline Levit for getting the
00:37:18
same lip injections that everybody else in. I certainly don't look at it as criticizing. I see it as just the genius
00:37:25
of the photographer telling a story. >> No, no, no. The genius. Yes. The genius
00:37:29
of the photographer telling the story, you can put in category A, but category >> making fun of her. No,
00:37:34
>> making fun of what she looks like is exactly what we're saying is wrong about
00:37:39
the president uh with his sophomoric insults of people. >> For me, it's more about them getting
00:37:44
played. They I mean if they're in the White House and she's a communications
00:37:48
person, they should be smarter about their communications. >> As a communications person, I changed my
00:37:52
profile picture on Twitter of the cesspool of what I when I use it to that picture because it's like she's a
00:37:59
communications person. She should know exactly what was ahead of her. >> What was happening
00:38:04
going after a woman for Botox? Sister, please. Who has >> I think they all looked bad. I think the
00:38:09
only person who actually was on to it was JD Vance. He's like, you're going to
00:38:12
make us look bad, aren't you? And I and I was >> well he did go to Yale University.
00:38:17
>> I know that's true. These matter of fantasy, but one of the things that was
00:38:20
clear is I don't think they I think they made the outside look like the inside
00:38:24
and the inside the outside look like the inside. That's my feeling. It's just the
00:38:27
way they are. Um so, uh let me ask you one last question. You talked about the movies. What caused you to go to a movie
00:38:35
this if you did? I went to see song Blue which I loved um with uh especially Kate
00:38:41
Hudson. I thought was really quite a revelation. Um, in it is there. What forced you into the theater? One very
00:38:47
quick answer because we got to move on after that. Brooke, >> I didn't go to the movies. This is the
00:38:51
first holiday season. I didn't First of all, it's pouring rain in LA, but I just
00:38:54
rewatched Heated Rivalry and that Palm Beach reality show that Netflix has dropped, which is insane, called Members
00:39:01
Only, which is like the Mara Lago Real Housewives. It is astonishingly. >> Lots of lip injections. Okay. Lots of
00:39:08
lip injection. Stephanie, what about you? Did you attend anything? Did anything force you? did not go to the
00:39:12
movies, but I'm a bad I I I didn't go to the movies even when people love going
00:39:16
to the movies. I either like to leave the house dressed with high heels and uncomfortable underwear or I like to
00:39:22
stay home. But like the movies to me where it's like a little bit stinky in there and I'm not that comfortable in
00:39:27
the chairs, that's a hard no. >> Don, anything? >> Same thing. I like to leave the house
00:39:31
with high heels and uncomfortable underwear. You know, I don't really I haven't made
00:39:38
an effort to go to the movies in years because I I'm just I'm like Stephanie.
00:39:42
I'm just not that interested. Now, I go to movie premieres. People invite me to
00:39:46
go to movie premieres. So, I'll go. >> You know why, Don? Cuz you got to put
00:39:49
high heels and uncomfortable underwear on. If you're going to leave the house,
00:39:52
you want to go out. See, this is why all the noise about Netflix talking about things. I think they're they're making
00:40:00
the correct argument, which is All right, one more quick break. We'll be back with one more question for each of
00:40:05
you. Everyone, we're back. Okay, I have uh one last question for you and I I'm
00:40:10
acquiring a prediction. First up, Stephanie, we talked we ended 2025 with a lot of market talk about an AI bubble
00:40:17
and whether it would burst. if that's what you want to talk about. What what
00:40:21
what do you what do you think your prediction would be around AI? >> I don't have a prediction of whether
00:40:28
it's going to burst, but all eyes are on AI and certainly mine. The question is
00:40:32
like is it I is it truly the future and is it going to convert every element of how we're living? There are certainly
00:40:40
companies that have added AI to their perspectus who are going to go bust, right? Like there are elements uh of
00:40:48
the.com bust that like I remember I worked in banking at the time and if there was a.com next to the end of your
00:40:54
company's name, people were scrambling uh uh uh to to to attend your IPO party.
00:41:00
There are companies that this isn't going to work out for. However, the masters of the universe in the AI space
00:41:07
and the companies that are smartly and effectively uh adopting AI are going to be the companies that soar into the
00:41:14
future. how that's going to transform our workforce, I don't yet know. Um, so
00:41:19
I don't have a prediction of where AI is going, but it's certainly our future.
00:41:22
>> Any other prediction you want to just throw out there? >> I would just say my prediction is while
00:41:27
people say that like the president's spiraling or this and that, I don't
00:41:30
think he is. I think Donald Trump is happier than ever, I think he's certainly wealthier than ever. and he's
00:41:35
finally surrounded by the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't
00:41:40
accept him for years and now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't
00:41:45
be I >> Melania is holding his hand again. I mean, look at it. >> Well, I I very much worry about the
00:41:51
future of our democracy. I worry about the health of our economy. I worry about the the health and safety of our country
00:41:56
and peace in the United States. That particular president, while people say he's a lame duck, and he is a lame duck,
00:42:02
if you think he's sad or frustrated or unhappy, he's not. He was in in Trump
00:42:07
1.0 sitting in his bed in the White House with his whole team saying, "No, sir, you can't." Now he is surrounded by
00:42:13
yes, may I have another, and can I give you an airplane and and a and some gold bars? He likey. He likey. Okay, next up,
00:42:20
Don. Will the uh talk about that. Will President Trump make it through the year? Careful the answer. I made a
00:42:25
prediction. I'm with the Peruvian shamans on this one, but um what uh what uh what is your thoughts of what's
00:42:32
coming up in politics or anywhere and also anything else you want to >> I'm more in line with you. I'm not so
00:42:37
I'm not so sure that he's going to I'm not like Stephanie. I'm not sure he's
00:42:40
he's going to make it till the end of the year. Um because I think his health
00:42:45
is bad. I think they're not letting on, you know, just how sick he is or or his
00:42:49
real health condition. Um and I think that he is well, you think he's happy. I
00:42:55
think he's scared. I think he's afraid of the Epstein files and what could
00:42:57
come. And a lot of this, including Venezuela, has to do with distraction from the Epstein files. And I believe
00:43:03
that's why the roll out has been so chaotic because they they're trying to
00:43:06
throw people off the trail. They don't want a road map. However, I do believe,
00:43:10
as I said earlier, that this is the beginning of the end for the MAGA movement as we know it. And I think that
00:43:16
Hakee Jeff could actually end up becoming the majority leader before 2026. I think they're going to lose.
00:43:22
Republicans are going to lose 2026. before the end of 2026. >> Before the end of 2026, I think there
00:43:26
are going to be a lot of Marjorie Taylor Green defectors or or enough that it could change uh the balance of the
00:43:32
Congress. That's what I believe. >> Balance of the Congress. Okay. Anything
00:43:35
else? >> But doesn't that depend on where Democrats fall? >> Uh it does.
00:43:40
>> If Democrats scoop up that more center space, they're there to take those
00:43:45
votes. But if they don't, then >> I think if they scoop up the that center
00:43:50
space, I think that would be a mistake because the movement in the party, remember the people who elected Donald
00:43:55
Trump were the people who were motivated to go to the polls and that were those were kind of the extremes whether you
00:44:01
like that or not. I think the energy in the Democratic party right now is on the
00:44:04
progressive side. It's not in the center. Um the center is over for that. People want
00:44:10
>> someone with balls. They want Jasmine Crockett. They want AOC. And I know
00:44:14
people don't believe that, but when I'm out there talking to the people, that's
00:44:17
who they want. They want Manny. They love him. They love um Bernie. And I don't hear
00:44:23
>> Chris Murphy has balls. >> I think he does, but Chris Murphy does
00:44:27
not he does not have the riz that all of those other folks have. He doesn't get
00:44:31
nearly the play. I mean I mean not I don't want to be insulting. That's kind
00:44:35
of a cable news thing >> for if you're out there talking to the folks. They love Jasmine, AOC, Bernie,
00:44:44
and and and the like. They're not talking that much about Chris Murphy. They probably don't even know Chris
00:44:49
Murphy's name. >> So, in that in that vein, Tim Walls is abandoning his re-election campaign for
00:44:54
governor. It looks like it might be Amy Clolobachar who is running and she would
00:44:58
be the first woman governor of Minnesota. Um, what uh someone who is very wellliked in Minnesota, by the way.
00:45:04
Um, what uh what is your prediction for then a presidential candidate? What does
00:45:09
that look like? >> Cuz that people will be talking after November or before November before 2020.
00:45:15
>> The easy one is that it's going to be Gavin Newsome. Whether he can win or
00:45:18
not, that's a whole another story. But I think it's going to be Gavin Newsome. I
00:45:22
do think that um I think someone like an AOC might run if she's too polarizing. I
00:45:27
don't know about that. But I think a a strong ticket I believe would be um Gavin and Marilyn Wes Moore
00:45:39
>> would be Wes Moore and Gavin Newsome. That would be a really really strong
00:45:42
ticket. >> Love him. >> Yeah, >> he's a handsome man. >> He's a handsome man.
00:45:46
>> I just I hear everything Don is saying and I think that Jasmine Crockett is
00:45:50
amazing and AOC are amazing and they're exciting exciting women, but I also think there are parts of this country
00:45:56
that aren't necessarily looking for excitement. Look at this last election. Manny had an extraordinary win in New
00:46:02
York and you saw Mikey Cheryl and Abigail Spanberger win in New Jersey and Virginia. And I think if you took those
00:46:09
three people and put them in I think Mikey couldn't have won in New York and
00:46:12
he couldn't have won in New Jersey. So I think that the key for Democrats is to
00:46:16
truly figure out for once how do you become an actual big tent party? And I don't know the answer.
00:46:22
>> Can I ask you a question? What does Mama Rule want to do? Where is she going?
00:46:25
>> Oh, where is Mama Rule? Oh, Louise. Louise, trust me, she loves. >> My mom likes Marco, just so you know.
00:46:33
>> My mom certainly likes Marco Rubio. She's very disappointed in what Donald
00:46:37
is doing. But Louise Rule at the end of the day cares about the price of London Royal. She cares about gas prices. She's
00:46:44
not focused on Maduro. And so she would love, there's nothing Louise Rule would
00:46:50
love more than a George Bush Mitt Romney renaissance. And sorry, Louise, that Falcon Crest and Dynasty, your other
00:46:57
favorites, aren't coming back. >> Stephanie, in a way though, I think we're saying the same thing. I'm I don't
00:47:02
disagree with you about the big tent that they have to figure that out. And every candidate, Manny doesn't work in
00:47:07
Iowa. You know what I mean? It's it's not going to work there. But I'm saying
00:47:10
the energy, like the loudest voices, the people who are more motivated, I believe, to go to the polls. But, you
00:47:16
know, look, there's a quiet there's probably a quiet middle out there. Uh, I
00:47:19
don't disagree with you on that, but I just think that that's, you know, that's
00:47:23
the folks that people >> guess. But I'm just saying, Don, I just don't know that like maybe I'm not
00:47:28
saying the country is getting sick of what's like just cuz something is going
00:47:32
viral. Maybe going viral is what's making us sick. And I'm not saying is
00:47:36
the answer, but I'm just saying we got to find a way to be constructive. >> Yeah. But I think it's constructive.
00:47:41
When I say that the the the the energy is on the progressive side, the progressives want universal healthcare.
00:47:46
That's not I don't believe that that's conservative or liberal. I think that
00:47:49
that's a that's a right that every American should have. The progressive
00:47:53
side wants a living wage for everyone. And look, I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I'm an independent. But yes,
00:47:58
they do, but they they're not as motivated about it. And it was an idea that came from the progressive side.
00:48:04
Look at where affordability came from. And now the Republicans are using >> thing is the Democratic party is
00:48:08
changing. And there they're also conservative versions of this in the Democratic party are more Greg uh Cesar
00:48:15
um Kazar, excuse me. Um, there's all kinds of people even. Um, just there's a
00:48:21
lot more congressional people. I'm going to finish with Brooke. We're recording
00:48:24
the day after the Critics's Choice Awards, speaking of picking and choosing, which kicks off awards season.
00:48:29
Um, do they even matter, these awards, ceremon do the award shows themselves matter?
00:48:35
>> Yeah, I mean, there's obviously the Golden Globes is coming up. >> Yeah.
00:48:39
What's ahead? >> I think yes and no. And very different for different reasons. I mean, you just
00:48:44
had the news that the Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple years. That's a
00:48:48
big big deal. >> I don't think it used to be like we all would gather and watch like the Oscars.
00:48:53
We'd have an Oscar party and people would do things like that. That doesn't
00:48:57
matter. I don't I think what matters is the clips, right? So, we're watching
00:49:02
like like the Jeff Goldblum interview yesterday about heated rivalry when he was asked about the cottage has gone
00:49:07
viral. the Tik Tockers and Instagrammers who are posting about uh fashion and then you're hearing about movies at like
00:49:14
from the winds people care about. They're like, "Oh, what is this one battle after another?" So, it's not the
00:49:19
shows themselves. It's the it is the viral moments. You had Timothy Shalomé profess his love for Kylie. These things
00:49:24
are are which then goes into Marty Supreme. So it that is the stuff that that is relevant. But nobody's sitting
00:49:32
there like the majority of people aren't sitting there and watching you know
00:49:34
people's speeches and all of the sort of different nominees. They care about the
00:49:39
fashion. They care about the viral moments and they care about those sort of things that come after.
00:49:44
>> But Cara, the Olympics are in a few weeks and I do think just like last
00:49:48
summer Olympics there, look at for for example college football, professional football, the viewership is off the
00:49:56
charts. And so I do think that there is a thirst. People do want to come together and watch things that are
00:50:03
joyful, that are exciting. And so while they might not be sitting down and saying I'm going to watch the Oscars,
00:50:08
things like the Olympics coming even though Winter Olympics or live I mean we we are all coming together for that.
00:50:16
It's just these awards specifically that used to be these sort of like cultural
00:50:19
moments gone. >> What what is your always way ahead of trends? What's the trend we are not
00:50:24
paying attention to and one that should be trash? I Oh, well the thing I mean I I think we are starting to pay attention
00:50:30
to but this content like YouTube when you're talking about billions of views a
00:50:34
month compared to like anything else and what you're seeing how much money you're
00:50:38
being that is we have to see like and the the the demographic for that are 7 to 14y old girls. It's your demon
00:50:44
hunters. It's that that is the market right like forget about forget about Gen
00:50:49
Z. We're looking at alpha and whatnot. So, I think that is where you're going
00:50:53
to start seeing a lot of stuff being created and animation and all of that. Music, music, music. And I think the
00:51:01
music aspect, whether it's live, whether it's incorporated into TV shows, movies,
00:51:06
that's what we are really leaning into. I I would love to put the Erica Kirk
00:51:11
memes to bed, like the Erica Kirk morning tour. Like, she's still blowing up. I don't want to see her anymore. I
00:51:18
don't want to >> She's still blowing up. >> She is still blowing up. People can't
00:51:21
get away. Hold on. He's blowing up a He's blowing up a good making fun of
00:51:25
her. They're calling it the morning tour. There's a whole meme going on like
00:51:28
I I mourned Subway's $5 like the loss of $5 foot longer than she mourned the
00:51:36
death of her husband. And these just keep going and it is in poor taste. And they have remember like the guy who did
00:51:42
the um dance the Korean singer who like gets shot up through the stage gangham style. That's like they're they're
00:51:48
comparing her to that where she's coming out on stage and then the whole story of
00:51:52
her and JD. >> Don't you like it to go away? >> I just But don't you think the like
00:51:56
you've got Turning Point USA raking in the money and their devotees and then
00:52:01
you have people who are who are it's it's a grift and then you have people
00:52:04
who are crushing her 24/7. But don't you think there's an I maybe I'm naive. I
00:52:09
think there's an exhaustion of mean where people are like can we move on from that and just live my life forward.
00:52:16
It will go away. But it's This one has had a Brooke right a longer shelf life
00:52:20
than most. Yeah. And by the way, I am so I am surprised the Oscars are going to YouTube. I did not know that. Do you
00:52:26
learn something new every day? >> 29 29. >> Oh my gosh. >> Yeah. Wow.
00:52:31
>> It'll probably be better. Let me So, Brooke, what is something we don't know?
00:52:34
That's the cresting. >> Oh. >> Slowly out in the ocean. It's a tiny
00:52:39
little ripple. >> I uh I think we're going to start I think heated rivalry. what we're seeing
00:52:45
is going to cause a whole new sort of um moment for people to come forward and be
00:52:52
emboldened whether it's sex, whether it's the things that we used to not be
00:52:56
able to talk about. You had that with hunting wise you're seeing that and that's coming in content that people are
00:53:01
creating. >> Is there a heated ri I don't know. So tell me Brooke is there a heated rivalry
00:53:06
conservative push back against it? >> I I'm sure there is but I can talk I can
00:53:11
talk about that. I've seen I've seen conservative um the log cabin Republican
00:53:16
type believe that it is conservative coded because they are closeted. They're
00:53:21
not open about it. They are, you know, they're not pushing it putting in everybody's face except for that big
00:53:27
giant kiss. I I don't want to, you know, ruin uh be a spoiler, but uh there the
00:53:32
conservative gays believe that it is gay uh conservative coded. >> There are people who believe, but I
00:53:38
don't mean conservative gays. If we're talking about like the the the woke
00:53:42
pendulum swinging, right? So, if we're talking about like here we were four years ago and now we're you now you got
00:53:48
Andrew Tate coming over politicians houses for dinner. Where does heated rivalry like does that does that family
00:53:55
does that faux family values movement are they mad about it? >> Well, this is I don't think this is a
00:54:00
woke thing. This is a this is kind of a middle This is kind of a normie kind of,
00:54:05
you know, show that has hit a that has hit the zeitgeist in a way that's not
00:54:10
woke. And I do think that it's going to have some penetration uh in middle America like, you know, Will and Grace.
00:54:16
People may not like it initially, but then it just kind of grows on you. You used to,
00:54:20
>> but it is the antithesis of the Andrew Tates. And that's what's so fascinating
00:54:24
to me. And there there are people that are saying it's a scops whole thing that
00:54:29
was done to distract us from what's going on with Trump. So there is a growing group of people that believe
00:54:35
this is all a conspiracy. It's like look over there. Look at gay sex over there.
00:54:40
>> But like Cara, you are you're paying attention to the p like where the
00:54:43
pendulum. I think everybody I I thought to me one of the great moments of 2025 and it paid a lot of attention was when
00:54:51
Golden performed at when the people from K-pop Demon Hunters performed at Macy's
00:54:56
parade. Everybody loved it. It was run by obvious I think a gay guy. You know, the whole thing was very woke in a very
00:55:04
lovely way in a way that wasn't the in-your-face woke. It was it's a very
00:55:09
subtle woke has learned how to how to be woke now that everybody loves and I think the evolution of woke it's like I
00:55:17
think heated rivals woke I think hunting wives is real woke but it's a whole
00:55:21
different >> but they're all MAGA in Hunting Waves they're doing having lesbian but that's
00:55:27
the genius and the joke of hunting wives >> that's right that's right and exactly
00:55:31
like guns MAGA lesbians it's like they're [ __ ] has learned the way a lot the way a lot of Cong Congress
00:55:40
people um uh Sarah McBride is a good example very sly lovely person she's she's you know
00:55:48
imperfect allies it's a different and so Golden if you listen to that song it is
00:55:53
completely about being gay it's about being like who you are but everybody wants like I have the most gendercoded
00:56:03
son in Solomon he's such a dude he's always showing his butt he's like I have
00:56:07
a penis, everything. He's so man. >> But that doesn't mean he's toxic.
00:56:11
Correct. He's just a dude. >> That's he's a dude. But I have to say I
00:56:14
said, "Do you like the Saja boys?" He goes, "Oh, no. I like the girls." Like
00:56:18
there was He likes all the boys like the girls. And that didn't happen with my
00:56:22
then my other sons immediately rejected the girls. Now the girls are and to me they are. So that when I saw people
00:56:30
respond to Golden, I was like, they have no idea what they're listening to here.
00:56:35
And it's I think there's a new version of woke that is going to infect the
00:56:39
whole country of >> Don't you think that version has woke but that's it? that version of woke,
00:56:44
those young males who who who briefly got swayed into the Trump averse and then said, "Hold on a second. You're
00:56:52
saying I'm not against this." They were just tired, right? The profile of of my
00:56:57
oldest son is a dude. He's not a toxic male, right? >> And and and so when he was
00:57:03
>> when he was had his finger waved in his face and yelled at, you saw those boys
00:57:07
sway. And then moments after the election, they were like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." And like I'm not going
00:57:13
there. So he's doing it. Exactly. >> I haven't seen Hunting Wives, but I'm
00:57:19
like just in my personal life, I would not be surprised to see um conservatives or MAGA people doing cocaine or lesbians
00:57:28
or shooting because those are the people who are doing it. In my life as a gay man, my woke gay friends are the most
00:57:37
boring with kids people I know and not out doing sexing and you know sexing it up. But the conservatives I know, some
00:57:45
of them who are closeted, they're the ones who are out partying every night,
00:57:49
who are doing the drugs, who are having the case, right? >> Right. And so I that would not be a
00:57:54
shock to me. So I think it's just like letting people know what's >> happening. Hunting wives, right? when
00:57:58
you were like, "Oh my gosh, this is a full MAGA bonanza." Then the next
00:58:02
episode, you know, the ones >> they have Exactly. That was Dynasty P. Like, by the way, when I was a young gay
00:58:08
person in Washington DC, I would say say someone rhymes with Ginsey Dam was in the big gay bars. I saw that there. So I
00:58:16
just like this was this was >> but I do think that the thing the trend that we're seeing like you say the the
00:58:22
vans the Joe Rogan's people are realizing it's not just their I don't
00:58:25
think it's because they have become morally awake like Marjorie Taylor Green
00:58:29
I don't think I think they see that there's more money to be made in the
00:58:32
middle there's more money to go in and say actually this >> leave people alone.
00:58:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> I do think that there is a this is not what I voted for aspect to it. I I
00:58:41
believe them when they say that even though it is what they voted for, maybe they didn't think that they would be
00:58:46
rounding people up off of the streets like they can prediction. I really do think my prediction and it touches this.
00:58:53
I think this year >> honestly love and kindness will reign supreme. >> People are so exhaust and I hear you Don
00:59:01
and the hate so many people even look even look right. I have every incentive to not want to believe Marjorie Taylor
00:59:09
Green. And when I watch her on the View just talking like a reasonable broad, I'm like, God, I feel you. And I don't
00:59:15
know if I feel her beyond that episode, but I do think this is the year people wake up and realize, let's give one
00:59:21
another a break. Life, but your words have to m your actions have to match your words. So, I'll give it time. I
00:59:28
don't necessarily believe it right now. >> Yeah. All right. Let me ask the final
00:59:31
question though because the story of the beginning of 2025 was Elon Musk at the beginning, right, of him taking up Doge
00:59:37
>> Space Karen. [ __ ] him. >> Space Karen. Um, what did what does I
00:59:41
want to know because he was the story of 20. We've forgotten since it seems so
00:59:44
long ago, but there was a whole cycle of him on top and then on bottom. Now he's
00:59:48
back with Trump. He's back with Trump. >> We just had dinner. He posted a video, a
00:59:52
picture. >> What is his future for? This is a tech show. What is he was the most prominent
00:59:56
tech figure in 2025. what happens to him in 2026. I I want first Stephanie and then Don and then Brooke from a culture
01:00:04
point of view. Stephanie, >> listen. Doge didn't work in every way. But guess what? He is more powerful than
01:00:11
ever. How when you look at SpaceX, when you look at the amount of contracts, the
01:00:16
possible IPO coming, when you look at how NASA has done less and so much more is being contracted to Elon Musk or what
01:00:23
Palanteer is doing. I think I'm not saying Elon Musk learned his lesson, but
01:00:27
Elon Musk is in a far better position personally and professionally today on par to be richer than anyone could have
01:00:36
ever fathomemed without getting 247 public scrutiny of the grand failure that was Doge, right? Like we all said,
01:00:43
like Doge is going to he he's going to try to employ Doge. he will get in his
01:00:48
rocket ship and leave which essentially he's done and leave wreckage behind which is what happened to so many of our
01:00:54
agencies and just just within our federal government. So so Elon Musk has left Doge and that's failure behind and
01:01:01
he keeps on trucking. I don't even think he thinks about Doge. He takes those
01:01:05
headlines and puts him in a bird cage for Liner. Yeah. All right. Next. Don, >> you work for him. How's that case going?
01:01:12
>> I am not talking about that for sure. where >> what I will say you can say a lot of
01:01:19
things about Elon Musk but I don't think he's a dummy right I think he's a smart
01:01:23
man I I believe that in this whole political thing that he's learned the limits of his power and by learning the
01:01:31
limits of his power he's learned where his power actually is and I think it's
01:01:34
being quieter behind the scenes uh making better and more innovative cars and if he just and rockets or whatever
01:01:41
it is and if he sticks to that he could have more influence than try and running
01:01:45
some, you know, department of government efficiency, which never really worked, which actually did not save any money.
01:01:51
So, um, >> and tarnished him badly >> and and tarn and he realized that, um,
01:01:56
if you're going to be in the business where you're selling a product and
01:01:59
you're and you're someone who is as highprofile as him and is the face of
01:02:02
the company, uh, then you have to have a good reputation. You have to do good for
01:02:06
people rather than taking jobs. You can't take people's jobs and say and
01:02:10
take their money and their livelihood and they have a, you know, a smaller wallet and say, "Now buy my car." It
01:02:15
doesn't really work that way. >> Yeah. So, he's learned his lesson.
01:02:17
Brooke, finish up. >> Yeah. I think and I think Don's absolutely right. Um I I don't know if
01:02:21
he's learned his lesson in the sense that he wants to do good, but the celebrity aspect of where he wanted he
01:02:26
had the he was hosting SNL. He was in every single place. He was on television as almost as much as Trump. He was
01:02:34
speaking and jumping up and down the cult of celebrity. he realized is not where his power is. And so he's taken a
01:02:41
giant step back from that and is much more subtle and much more sort of, you know, whether somebody's guiding him,
01:02:48
which it really seems it might be somebody he's got somebody in his ear or he just came upon that himself where the
01:02:54
destruction and maybe he's gone to rehab and the ketamine use is down. I who car
01:03:00
that's the perfect segue to credit Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway has been saying
01:03:05
for years and years, >> he sells the stock. He stops trusting the company when the CEO is on the cover
01:03:11
of Vogue. When when they're in a fashion photo shoot and they're surrounded by
01:03:15
puppies, that's when you sell the stock. That's when you stop believing in the
01:03:18
company. Elon Musk had his celebrity phase, then his celebrity, you know, political kingmaker, and now he's
01:03:25
>> whether I'm saying realize or not, he's saying he and he's saying, guess what? I
01:03:29
am much better off as the Wizard of Oz. And that's what he is, the man behind
01:03:33
the curtain. Yeah. >> But he did expose himself. He did expose himself. >> He did. He did. He showed his ass. Yeah.
01:03:38
How can we miss the theme won't go away to Mars. Anyway, uh thank you so much
01:03:43
all of you. Let me just read this out. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or
01:03:47
whatever's on your mind and what you think of these fine co-hosts. Go to nymag.com/pivot.
01:03:52
Submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. You
01:03:57
guys actually were fantastic and fantastic together and you outclass Scott Galloway I have to say for our
01:04:03
first show of the year and I truly appreciate it and so does Scott from what wherever he is whatever he is doing
01:04:09
again please write in what you think he is doing um you're probably right in
01:04:13
2026 my my personal hope is to have a shred of the confidence that Caris should shred
01:04:21
>> and the cameos >> I love myself >> yeah heated rivalry we're all going with
01:04:25
you baby >> we're going okay All right, you're all coming on the set and making a nuisance
01:04:28
of yourself. Now, be sure to check out the Don Lemon Show. It's amazing. He got
01:04:32
to a million YouTube uh uh subscribers is amazing. The 11th hour with Stephanie Rule. It is the best. It's I watch it
01:04:40
every night and I send pictures to Stephanie. It's the I have to say it's
01:04:44
the best hour of cable television. I learn a lot. Um and of course, Pop Culture Mondays. Brooke is always way
01:04:50
ahead of the the curve on lots and lots. She was always like, I wrote about that
01:04:53
months ago. Anyway, thank you for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
01:04:58
We'll be back on Friday hopefully with Scott Galloway. We'll see. I will read
01:05:03
us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andut engineered this
01:05:10
episode. Jim Mel edited the video. Nishot Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer and podcast. Make sure to
01:05:17
follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and uh Vox Media.
01:05:24
You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for
01:05:28
another breakdown of all things uh tech and business. Thanks, Cara. Thank you. And it's I'm coming to the cottage.