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Thoughts and prayers aren't going to bring those kids back and they're not going to help our infrastructure put in place the right warning system.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser
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and I'm Scott Galloway and this episode is sponsored by IBM. We've got a lot to get to today actually in a very serious way uh because over
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the weekend other people had very tragic weekends including the flooding in Texas. Um, and of course we will talk
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about other things like winners and losers from Trump's big beautiful bill. Uh, but first let's get to the latest
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fuel on the fire of the big beautiful fight between Elon Musk and Donald Trump which is just getting worse as we
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predicted. Scott Galloway, you didn't know you predicted this. I did. I know him so well. He couldn't stand the the deficit. I know him. He's
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talked about it for years and had to listen to it. So Elon is lashing out over the lack of findings. Now, today
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he's moved on in uh in an FBI and DOJ review of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. This was the thing he
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tweeted about when he started his fight with Trump. Then he took it back and now he's back. Uh I knew it. It's, you know,
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he's got a hair up his ass about this and a bunch of other things. But the departments have reportedly concluded there was no Epstein client list, no
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evidence of blackmail, that enhanced footage proves Epstein killed himself early Monday morning. Elon posted. So,
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um, and then what is Gilain Maxwell in prison for? Stuff like this does not improve people's faith in government.
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Um, he also, you know, Pam Bondi's gotten herself in a bit of a mess saying she had a list in front of her and then
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of course she said there is no list. Um, and of and of course uh Dan Bonino and Cash Patel has have made their career saying Epstein was was killed and now
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say say he isn't. Let's talk about the findings really quickly. They do make Bondi look suspicious even if you don't
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believe this. And I know you had a different opinion about the Epste thing than I did. I thought it was just to kill himself. But um uh but but that's
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not their all they're fighting about. Trump is calling Elon quote off the rails following Musk's weekend
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announcement that he'll form a new political party, the America Party. Musk has called Trump's big beautiful bill
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quote a disgusting abomination and suggested targeting some key House and Senate seats in 2026. It's actually
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somewhat cany. If he gets enough of them, he can certainly cause a lot of trouble. Uh Tesla shares are falling in
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pre-market trading on Monday for a lot of reasons, including results. But this is not helping. Um here's what Treasury
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Secretary Scott Besson had to say about it on Sunday to CNN's Dana Bash. And I will say ahead of it, he sounds like
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such a pri, but let's go. The principles of Doge were very popular. I think if you looked at the
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polling, Elon was not. So, uh, I believe that the boards of directors at his various companies wanted him to come back and run those companies, which he is better at than anyone. So, I imagine
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that those board of directors did not like this announcement yesterday and will be encouraging him to focus on his
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business activities, not his political activities. Josh, thanks, Mom. Just honestly, Scott,
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it's none of your business what he does. But in any case, all the bickering has hurt his relationship with Beijing too
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because Tesla sales are falling off there as we have discussed many times because BYD has great cars and uh and
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that that's the way it goes there in there. So, so tell me a little bit about this Scott. How do you feel this just
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continuing? Um and and actually I think it can cause some real damage here actually, but maybe you don't.
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Well, typically any third party that gets any traction, it has a center of gravity, a reason for being the Green Party, it's pretty clear what you know
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they think. The Rosbro's independent movement wanted a flat tax that had some substance to it. Andrew Yang's party that he tried to start I thought had
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some substance to it. He's known for UBI. The substance of of Musk trying to start a party as the following or the center of gravity is I'm disappointed I'm no longer the first friend. you
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know, the his his criticism that this guy is a pedophile and that this bill will add to the deficit and is is
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irresponsible. He was down with all of that when he had input around who was going to be the next director of the CIA
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or the IRS. He it didn't seem to bother him then, but basically since he's been kind of unceremoniously kicked out of the White House, he's decided we need a third party. So this thing doesn't it
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it's sort of dead on arrival in the sense that it doesn't it doesn't have a reason for being. And in addition as a
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construct the United States electoral system just isn't set up for a third party. It's set up to block any third
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party. We have the system is essentially rigged for two. It's a a first pass the
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post winner take all elections. It's not some in some nations they have sort of a parliamentary or representative or
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proportional representation like Germany, Sweden and Israel. They routinely see viable third, fourth and
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fifth parties because seats are allocated based on vote share. Uh not an all or nothing. So when you have all or
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nothing, it's binary. So third part all third parties do when they're successful
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and I don't think this one will be is there spoilers. Bill Clinton should not have won the
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presidency but Ross Perau took 18% of the vote probably like 11 to7 from Bush Clinton respectively and Clinton became president. The Jill Stein people would argue stole the presidency. Ralph Nater
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people think is what handed u you know W the presidency. So they can be spoilers
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but this one has no reason for being. This one comes across as sour grapes. Scott Bent
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comically pretending or trying to call on the board of directors to actually do something here is is is laughable. So, I
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think this like most third parties will get I I I think this will die a quick death, but we'll see.
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All right, let me let me put something out for you because one of the things that he's been talking about is is knocking off a couple of seats, right?
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Given how close these elections are, 210 to whatever, it's always within two or three, right? What if he goes after two Senate seats and eight House seats and
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then suddenly has them, you know, encourages and gets a certain number of people into place that could block everything, right? There is that nobody's ever really talked about it
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like that. Um, and if he he gets those Congress people in and they are beholden to him or or they agree with him, right?
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and people find it appealing because I do think people don't find the Democrats or the Republican there's a whole rhino
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group um you know Mark Cuban is like this is a good idea and I think they all think of it as blocking these two
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parties and so instead of thinking it like let's have a third party let's have a third blocker um is how I look at it
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and so if they could do that and they and they're they're the difference between how hard could it be to get
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seats I don't know I don't No, like I don't think it's impossible. That's for sure. But a lot of people who I I'm
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surprised are sort of like, huh, interesting idea. And I think that's what he's doing here. And he's actually kind of said it in that regard is I can
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find a way to block, you know, them from voting these things in and giving nobody
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the majority really essentially. Any thoughts on that? Well, I think you're right, but we're
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talking about two different things. One is I I don't think a third party, a viable third party is viable. What
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you're talking about is influence and Elon Musk has already proven he can have massive influence. There's a decent
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argument that he is the reason that Trump was elected. Correct. So when you're worth $400 billion and
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you have a big media platform and you're bold and unafraid as Musk is, you're absolutely right. He could I mean pet one thing Peter Teal could call Vice
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President Vance and say I need you to promote um a NASA should be focused solely on you know going to Pluto and he would say yes Mr. Teal. Um, Peter Teal
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has is the puppet master behind JD Vance and Elon Musk until recently had a lot of control over Musk, but now that Trump is, you know, excuse me, now that Trump
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is probably not running again and feels like, okay, I've used this guy. I've squeezed all the juice I want from this lemon. But Elon Musk with his platform
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and his money, unfortunately, because of Citizens United, could absolutely get enough people elected that owed him
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enough that they would have to take his call and vote one way or another or just would vote one way or another.
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Like maybe there's a there there is this sort of group that is like interestingly Sam Alman was saying he's politically
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homeless that feel politically homeless on both sides of the equation. Now, that doesn't mean to say if they're centrist
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Democrats, they might not like them or reasonable Republicans, they might there's this group that I think very
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much so if he got um you know, if he put enough money to it and the right person
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in some of these if you could target six seats like like a Mike Lawler, for example, that don't have to be beholden to the Trump people and once Trump's missing from the equation, less scared,
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you could you could see them just blocking legislation almost continually like until they until the groups compromise which it honestly is not such a bad thing which is why I think I
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haven't talked to Cuban about it but that's my assumption that Cuban thinks is attractive he got a lot of for
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that for saying interesting by the way if if past elections are any proxy for what's going to happen in the midterms we'll see Democrats retake control of the house at which point it'll be very
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hard for them to get legislation through unless to your point they compromise Uh the idea Musk is absolutely has the
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ability and the firepower to get several people elected which could end up being a swing vote. The problem is and I've
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said this over and over, he's a drug addict and he's a narcissist and I don't think he's especially concerned or has a
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lot of regard for the well-being of our deficit of the United States. I think he just wants power. So maybe he can get
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it, but then what and then what you think? I I just don't I do think this is something he has started the deficit thing has been on
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his mind for a long time. That is certainly true and I've heard it from not just him but other people like him,
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right? This def this this overspending. And you talk about it, too. I mean, it's vaguely appealing to not let them do
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this, right? To to deny them the ability to add on taxes or um or to take away from young people or people who marginalize people or not making the investments. There's the problem is
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there's things he's right about. Why are we continuing to double down on fossil fuels and not even though even if he's
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hurt about the EVs directionally it's correct compared to fossil fuels? So there's a lot of appeal to certain people. I think one interesting there's two things that I think about. One is
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Joe Rogan suddenly is like wait a minute he's taking away hard like that gang goes with Elon and that's a big gang
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right like kind of thing of people who have influence. um this so it creates a chaos which is sort of where he lives.
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Um the second thing is that the response from Republicans has been fascinating. It's so over the top Trump himself that
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do you see that long word? It looks like it was written by Steven Miller because it had some punctuation. Um but it was
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sort of like over like right in the middle of so many other crisises for him to take the time to do like a the giant
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paragraph was was and full of like he's off the rails, he takes drugs. like he's throwing everything at him, which means
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he's worried. Um, and and then cuz if he wasn't worried, he'd ignore him presumably. Um, and then secondly,
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God, Scott Jennings on CNN, I work for CNN, I'm sorry, CNN, but that you let him say things like that.
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My humble advice to Elon, who I admire very much actually, is that you may be dividing the forces of people who want to save Western civilization to the benefit of the people who don't.
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dramatic dramatic. What a drama queen and what a terrible thing to say. Um I I'm sort of
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welcoming um Musk to mow those people down like you know what I mean in terms of of causing them problem and they're
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all very very worried about this. So, I just am paying attention to their response, which is off the charts, which
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is cuz they understand uh the damage he could do, including around Epstein, even though I mean, how are you feeling about
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the Epstein thing now that this was released? Cuz you were sort of Cara, he was killed. You remember you were like
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on that that train that I I feel I mean, I'm I I just think it's like I think it's old news and they keep
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pulling Oh, really? I think they keep pulling the ghost out of of of Epstein. There
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was a couple things there. The first is as progressives, what Elon's doing now is nothing but upside for us. Distinct of the viability of a third party, distinct of what his motivations are.
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His primary motivation is that he hates Donald Trump and feels like he was treated poorly. I I don't believe that
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he's that concerned. May fine, maybe he has. He's on the record as not liking the deficit. Well, he he was fine with
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it when when he would got to show up to the West Wing and Hot Topic outfits and talk about a brave new world and
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everyone was like, "You're the co-president." He seemed to be comfortable with these deficits. Yes. Agreed. And with with everything he knew about,
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you know, Donald Trump and Epstein up until that point, but he is fueled right now, as far as I can tell, by rage and
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revenge. And uh and if he gets people elected who are against Trump, I'm all for it.
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Great. The The other thing is, and this is part of the this is part of the problem with what what what Scott
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Jennings represents, is that America doesn't realize they're fighting the wrong enemy. And that is, and I think
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the left is just as guilty of this as the right is that you're asked to pick a team. And if you ever like want to hang
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out with the other team, you're treated as an apostate. Absolutely. And people and we we've experienced
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this. I I I still am feel like all the time. I still feel like kind of angry and bitter out of all these pe all
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these people who when we were talking about or expressing concerns about Biden. Yep. Like you don't understand the
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assignment. You're going to get Trump elected. You're you're anti-American. I mean it was just like no. I'm
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I posted about Musk. They're like we don't want him. I'm like you kind of do like what are you talking he's going to like he's going to
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at this point given the dynamics there's nothing but upside for progressives and there's nothing but downside for the
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president. But what's also clear from this is that the president is much more powerful and much more popular than Musk
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and because it feels right now he feels like quite frankly it feels like Musk is flailing a little bit and angry. Um
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we'll see what happens but I'm here for it because he's not he's not going to send Musk isn't going to use his power
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and his money to get people elected who will support the president's agenda right now. That's something I don't I'm fairly certain of. So fine. My enemy's
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enemy is my friend. So welcome. I don't mind some centrists in the middle just blocking things. I don't like, you know,
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you see the Freedom Caucus, we're going to block it. And then they never do. Like, they never do. There's such a bunch of like wonders, like,
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well, Chip Roy, I really can't take this. Oh, yes, I voted for it. Like, I'd like some non-dickless wonders to say,
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no, we're just not going to vote for it, and you guys go back to the drawing board and do something better. And I agree on the sincerious of the
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left being exhausting. That said, Scott Jennings wins the prize on his like Yes,
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Scott. I'm against Western civilization. Yeah, but Scott Jennings Scott Jennings is
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Scott Jennings is playing the same role as Megan McCain, as I forgot the little guy on the All-In
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podcast, and that is Jason Calan. They're supposed to be representative of the other side.
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Mhm. But they do such they acquit themselves so poorly that they just cement and embolden and polish the views of the rest of the people. The only person that breaks that mold is
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Jessica Taroff. Yeah. And that is the four speak and it's like okay yeah the tickle my sensors and then
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all of a sudden the five on the five Jessica Tarov speaks like she's kind of smart maybe she has a point. Yeah.
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Typically the way they do these shows is on the view they have four very progressive talk and then they have
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whatever her name was Dana Hasselback or whatever like yeah it's Alyssa Farah now but she's
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much more reasonable but go ahead but she's she's intelligent and impressive typically the model used to
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bring have Sean Hannity who's a compelling figure and then have Shawn Colmes basically make his Alen Combmes it's Alen Combmes
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was it Alan? Excuse me. Yeah. Uh, and that's what, you know, that's that's this person's role. That's
00:16:39
Scott's role right now. He he's there to make a point that kind of sounds aggressive, weak, and weird, and then
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the other Democrats just smack him down. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. You're the Scott I like, just so you know.
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You're the Scott. I call you good Scott. Um, anyway, we'll see what happens. It is certainly
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interesting, but at the same time, let's be clear, Musk's businesses are really suffering and could suffer even more. uh
00:17:02
including Tesla, including Starlink, including all his businesses. So, he's not the even if he's the world's richest
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man, he's also someone who is not without weakness in that regard. And there it's very leveraged against each
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other. So, we'll see. Uh speaking of something we thought he might get a hold of, but he's obviously not now. Tik Tok
00:17:19
is reportedly developing a US version of the app ahead of the upcoming sale deadline. President Trump has given the
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Chinese parent company Bite Dance until September 17th to sell the assets, although he's extended that several
00:17:29
times illegally. Um he says he's been talking he'll be talking to China early this week about the sale and that he
00:17:35
quote pretty much has a done deal. It's probably Oracle Mark and some version of
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various of its rich owners. The US version of Tik Tok would launch in the app store on September 5th. Um which I
00:17:47
don't know what that means. Uh so I I don't know if that's enough or what's enough a US version? Um I don't know
00:17:55
what's going to happen. Do we care anymore, Scott? Do we? We do, but we don't. If that makes sense. Well, it's
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been so I mean, he liked it, then he didn't like it, then he liked it again, and then he found out one of his biggest
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donors was a big investor there. It all comes down to this. Who owns it? And whether it's a US version, that doesn't
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matter. It's who owns it and who has control over the algorithm. And I I've now come to believe that China realizes
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they're playing with a much stronger hand than Trump. and that this guy continues to blink and that whatever
00:18:24
they do will be sort of window dressing uh as opposed to again who controls the algorithm and gets to decide what content to dial up to further create a new generation of nonprofit business and
00:18:37
military leaders that basically think America sucks. I think that's the free gift with purchase that Tik Tok is
00:18:42
getting in addition to their $300 billion in enterprise value. I don't think they're going to give that up. I don't think they think they have to. I
00:18:47
think they can come up with some sort of accommodation that President Trump can claim credit for, but meanwhile Beijing
00:18:54
will still control the algorithm. So, the only thing that matters here is who owns it. Yeah. So, who what do you I mean, I
00:19:01
assume it's an Oracle and rich guys thing, right? I just wonder if that's going to happen.
00:19:06
You think that you think it's going to happen? I don't know. I don't I I don't know how that he's going to he's he's got a deal
00:19:12
done like he I don't believe much of anything he's come out of his mouth. So, um I just don't know. Yeah. Again, why
00:19:18
would China what's he going to do? What's he going to do? Like what's what's he going to do? Well, he could technically he could ban
00:19:23
it. He he could enforce the ban, but he hasn't enforced the law. He could enforce the law that's been passed by both by all branches of government that he's decided not to enforce and then it
00:19:34
effectively would be banned. But here's the thing. China doesn't care. China China has a
00:19:39
private enterprise. They run their companies for control, not for profits. I believe by dance getting only about
00:19:44
20% of its revenue now from the US. They're not afraid. He keeps blanking. So if they can come to some sort of
00:19:50
accommodation that again gives him a perceptual victory. But meanwhile Beijing gets has their hands on the
00:19:56
algorithm then I can see it happening. I don't see Beijing at this point handing over Tik Tok to US interests.
00:20:03
Yeah. Why would they? I I just don't see what what unless they want something else. Maybe I I don't know why would it
00:20:09
be worth it in any way. Besides, they're not going to it's this look that that app they're managing to ruin this app really in a lot of ways and eventually people won't use it just like they don't
00:20:19
use anything else. But um certainly this idea I've done a deal like he likes to Why does he have to stick with that? It's so kind of gross and old manny like I do I I do deals. I'm a dealmaker. The
00:20:31
art of the deal. It's like stop like we got it. Like because you don't really do good deals. You do some good deals. Some
00:20:36
you don't. But he has to always like slack it. Okay. Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the
00:20:42
deadly flooding in Texas and questions raised about whether officials did enough to warn people.
00:20:48
Support for Pivot comes from IBM. Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI.
00:20:53
Superersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI cost up to 90%. Rightize
00:21:01
your models at ibm.com. The AI built for business. IBM. Scott, we're back. At least 80 people, including 28 children, are confirmed dead after a catastrophic flood swept
00:21:14
through central Texas, which is known as the flash flood uh corridor, I think over the weekend. Dozens are still
00:21:20
missing, including 10 girls from a summer camp. Rescue efforts are still ongoing as of this recording, and the
00:21:26
fingerpointing has already begun, obviously, right away. Some local officials are blaming the National Weather Service, claiming forecasts
00:21:31
underestimated the severity of the rainfall. But meteorologists told Wire that NWS actually predicted the risk of
00:21:38
flooding and sent warnings. It just was in the middle of the night and and they have these systems that that don't they
00:21:43
don't have sirens in this particular area. Um people ignore them. People ignore warnings, things like that. Uh
00:21:49
there's also the Doge factor. Hundreds of jobs at NWS were cut earlier this year. Some crucial positions at local
00:21:55
offices are currently unfilled according to New York Times. That particular story was quite disturbing actually. and an
00:22:01
NWS staffer told the Texas Tribune that the regional offices had adequate staffing and technology saying this was
00:22:07
us doing our jobs to the best of our abilities which doesn't exactly make you feel confident. Um past few days I'll
00:22:14
also note as this is a floodprone area it has happened in the past back I think in the 1970s they've considered warning
00:22:21
systems and they did not imple them because of the cost. Um, one one local official said they were extravagant costs to put these sirens in, particularly. Uh, again, texting is hard
00:22:33
in this area. It has lower uh cell phone coverage, for example. People ignore it.
00:22:40
Um, this also happened at the worst possible time. And Scott, you put up a number of pictures of how quickly these
00:22:47
floods go in during the day. This was in the middle of the night um or dark in darkness. And so, it was unexpected.
00:22:53
people were sleeping. Worst possible time this could happen. Um and the stories are are heartbreaking. Um is
00:23:01
there any chance the Trump administration reevaluates some of those cuts? They're definitely stuck in this cycle of they're to blame for what's
00:23:08
happened. Um why don't you talk a little bit about this? when I when something like this happens I think a lot about
00:23:14
one of the one of those books that kind of changed or I don't know gave me a a a seinal
00:23:21
framework for how I evaluate decisions is Daniel Conorman's work specifically thinking thinking fast and slow I think
00:23:28
it's called and there's sort of there's system one thinking right and that you have to have system one thinking to
00:23:34
respond something an emergency happens it you fight or flight you need to respond immediately you need to make very quick decision visions. Uh the problem is and what we pay our elected
00:23:45
officials for is that we're supposed to have slow thinking. We're supposed to slow down and look at structural change
00:23:50
and what are the things leading up to this crisis that potentially could have helped avoid it. And the system one
00:23:56
thinking immediately takes over. Media defaults to drama, quick narrative formation. They love heroic rescues.
00:24:03
Um politicians use shortcuts. They immediately want to fill a narrative or backfill a narrative to to show, you
00:24:10
know, Democrats want to say this is all about climate change. This is all about the cuts. And then Republicans go really
00:24:15
crazy and claim it's evidence of some sort of deep state conspiracy to control the weather.
00:24:20
And then they love that one. The recent, you know, availability bias, recent dramatic floods get
00:24:26
disproportionate attention compared to ongoing prevention needs. Partisan reflexes activate. We've seen that. And
00:24:34
the whole point of a government and the whole point of being an adult is you're supposed to let your slow thinking take over and say all right the time pressure
00:24:41
prevents real analysis and that is these things demand immediate reactions not careful evaluation and the reality is we
00:24:48
don't know I mean so for example with the the two weather services that are charged with a
00:24:54
response and prevention and then communications they are dramatically understaffed they have been understaffed
00:25:00
for a while but we don't know we don't have enough data yet to to to say with any certainty whether that underst
00:25:06
staffing or if they had been adequately staffed if it would have resulted in a different outcome. And the problem is is
00:25:12
that these jobs are what I call invisible until there's a disaster. I always talk about jobs invisible until
00:25:17
you up. And that is the TSA, lifeguards, vaccine research. I mean, all of these jobs, the CDC, we don't know how many pandemics the CDC has stopped because
00:25:30
the whole point of government is that you don't appreciate how boring their work is because they prevent. We don't
00:25:35
know how many terrorist cells have been busted up before they killed a bunch of people because they did this boring hard
00:25:41
work that requires investment and meticulous systemic infrastructure investment. And unfortunately, that doesn't make for good TV. It doesn't make for heroics. It doesn't make for
00:25:52
speeches trying to demonstrate leadership and thoughts and prayers and people in FEMA jackets. So, prevention
00:25:59
gets no credit. Voters re reward visible disaster response over invisible long-term infrastructure investments. People in boats, pulling people, which creates which creates perverse
00:26:09
political incentives. It's the same as you want to watch a TV show called ER as opposed to preventive medicine. That doesn't make for good daytime. That doesn't make for good evening drama.
00:26:21
Must see TV is never like preventive m the vac the family planning clinic. I mean it just that doesn't make for good
00:26:28
drama. Let's create a show another p another plane landed safely. In other words,
00:26:33
that's not news. So what I what I would encourage us and what I try and do is say when people say
00:26:38
what do you think? I I don't I have no idea. I know it rained a lot and a lot of good people uh have incurred a
00:26:45
tragedy. Would a more thoughtful response to flood control and weather services investment have prevented this?
00:26:52
We don't know yet. Is it clear? Is it clear that we have more catastrophic weather events that are more extreme and more frequent? Yes. But was this a function of that? We don't know.
00:27:05
Right. Right. And and so the question is, well, let's let's lean on good people and scientists who are pursuing the truth. Let's slow
00:27:11
our thinking down and then let's make the requisite investments in infrastructure and personnel that are
00:27:16
really boring such that we talk about this stuff less. I mean, you noted here this New York
00:27:22
Times report that I just referred to, you put this in your notes. The National Weather Surface San Angelo office, which is responsible for some of the areas hit
00:27:29
hardest by Friday's flooding, was missing a senior hydraologist, staff forecaster, and meteorologist in charge
00:27:35
to me. And a lot of it, you know, it was interesting because Christy Gnome was then Texas. people blamed the go blame
00:27:41
the Trump administration. They were saying it was because of ancient systems in the past. And I was like, wasn't
00:27:46
President Trump the president in the past? Like again, she's she's so dumb. It just constant stupidity from her. Um
00:27:54
and it seems like that's and of course Trump pretended he couldn't hear it, right? What? I can't hear you, which
00:27:59
doesn't do well for me not thinking he's an old man. Um but I agree with you. I think this is we don't know what
00:28:06
happened. Although I will say um it's it from a p two things that I thought were
00:28:12
repulsive that happened. One is all these conspiracy theories about weather control from people like you get over
00:28:17
like that has not gotten a lot of purchase but there was enough of it that it was ridiculous um that people are no
00:28:23
more weather controlling. I'm like, well, yeah, we should stop driving cars probably. Like, and if you want to talk
00:28:29
weather control, um, you know, I think the bigger things immediately saying, I think it is climate. I mean, it's so clear these these right now there's flooding in North Carolina. There's the
00:28:40
these weather situations have gotten worse and worse. There's just no question about that. More of them, more of them. And very tragic kind of
00:28:47
thing. One of the things that it seemed to me at the very basis was relying on a
00:28:54
system of texting seems crazy to me, especially in a rural area, right? Like that's how you warn people, especially
00:29:01
if people aren't paying attention to their phones in the middle of night and they I don't know. Whenever you get one of these warnings here in DC, I get
00:29:06
them. I ignore them, right? Me, too. They go just ignore You probably get a lot down in Florida, I would assume. And
00:29:12
they they make your phone go and I pretty much ignore them. If it was a siren, I would not ignore it, interestingly enough. So, it seems like they probably should have sirens here,
00:29:23
especially when there's so many kids along that, you know what I mean? Like, that's one of the things I think will
00:29:28
resonate is that um in this this one camp, it's looks like a Christian camp. A lot of very high level Texas officials
00:29:35
sent their kids there. Um I think Laura Bush worked there as a counselor. It seems like one of these institutions in
00:29:41
that area of the country. Um, and the and the director died trying to save these girls. I think it may there's
00:29:48
nothing wrong with some of the human stories here, Scott, because I think it gets people going in that regard. And I think the
00:29:56
Trump administration is going to get dragged into this the way the Bush administration got dragged into Hurricane Katrina, if you remember. It
00:30:03
seems incompetent. Um, and seems, you know, he might go there on Friday. He has to go there. He really does. And I know the president's getting in the way, but from a symbolic
00:30:15
point of view, he's got to go there and he can't be throwing, you know, towels at them, like paper towels at them. The
00:30:21
the president should always be there for these kind of terrible incidents. So, we'll see. Um, but I think you're right
00:30:26
about thinking fast. It's slow, but it's inevitable. There'll be human interest stories here.
00:30:32
Yeah, those alerts, you get the strangest alerts in Florida. I got an alert that two men had broken into a pharmacy and stolen
00:30:39
all the Viagra and it said to be on the lookout for two hardened criminals. I couldn't resist you made that joke. I couldn't resist. Anyway, anyway, I don't ever say
00:30:49
thoughts and prayers, but here I break heart. I think that is such an excuse for a
00:30:54
lack of action. I hate that. You know what, folks? I know. uh thoughts and prayers aren't
00:31:00
going to bring those kids back and they're not going to stop climate change and they're not gonna and they're not going to help our infrastructure
00:31:06
put the right word system this should this should give us all a minute definitely and and it's it's fine
00:31:13
for people to cover it and everything else but we really need to get to the heart of it as Scott said and put experts in charge that they really can
00:31:20
prevent you know can prevent these tragedies from being worse than they are and this one is particularly bad I think
00:31:27
um okay Let's go on a quick break. We come back. How the big beautiful bill is going to change the country as we know
00:31:33
it. Scott, we're back. While you were away, Donald Trump passed his big beautiful bill. It's now law. The
00:31:38
president signed the bill on his self-imposed deadline, the 4th of July, calling it quote the single most popular
00:31:44
bill ever signed, despite most polls saying otherwise. The final bill extends Trump's 2017 tax cuts, uh, which were supposed to go to end at the end of this
00:31:54
year, slashes Medicaid significantly, boosts immigration enforcement by a lot, and adds over $3 trillion to the
00:32:01
deficit. Some of the big winners from this bill include wealthy Americans, corporations, and defense contractors,
00:32:07
also prison people, um, prison owners. um some of the losers, low-income Americans, healthcare workers, clean
00:32:13
energy companies drastically, and Elon Musk after the bill scra scrapped EV subsidies also for anybody working in the EV industry, which get a $7,500
00:32:23
annual um subsidy uh that is going away. Um which is a very good time to buy an EV now if you want to, by the way, um before those go away. Uh talk about what this bill means uh for the country. I
00:32:37
mean, what do you see? You've talked about this a lot, but now that it's passed, what do you see as some of the
00:32:42
stuff dropped out, including selling public lands and some other stuff. Um, but some of the stuff absolutely stayed
00:32:48
in there. Um, so talk a little bit about your thoughts about where it's going. I've thought a lot about this bill. I
00:32:53
think it cements the notion and unfortunate motion or notion that America has officially decided that it's
00:32:59
comfortable with the bottom 90% of America being nutrition for the top 10%. that this isn't just weaponization by
00:33:07
the government of rich people. It's Americans deciding that uh I'm comfortable with the transfer of wealth from the future to the past, from the poor to the rich, from the young to the
00:33:19
old because I think maybe someday I'll be there. And also some of these images of how cruel and harsh it is get
00:33:24
conflated with masculinity and leadership. And I don't think you can just blame Republicans and Trump. I think America has decided in some ways that it's now the Hunger Games. And I just think it's
00:33:36
more than I think I think it represents something deeper and more menacious and ugly about America right now that there's because there really hasn't been a lot of push back. I think most people
00:33:46
acknowledge that this is going to be good for rich people and it's going to be bad for poor people. 14 million plus
00:33:53
are going to lose their healthcare and these are some of the most you know vulnerable people in the world.
00:33:58
disabled kids, disabled seniors, uh, and then I'm going to get a tax cut. And that big one, at the end of the day, that's what this is. It's it's taking about, you know, it's taking
00:34:12
$800 billion out of out of Medicaid and it's dramatically reducing taxation such
00:34:19
that and uh adding to the deficit. So, it's an enormous tax on future generations. It's a a huge erosion in
00:34:27
the social safety net for poor people such that the most productive, if you will, that's the nicest thing you could
00:34:33
say, the most blessed, the most fortunate, the richest among us continue to um aggregate more wealth. And I'm,
00:34:42
you know, if you give me a minute here, u I'm on vacation and I think a lot about, you know, when I'm when I have
00:34:48
time to kind of slow down. When you're young, you think about you credit your grit and your character for your
00:34:54
success. You think about the pillars that your blessings are built on, and you have a tendency to go, "Well, it's my grit and my hard work and my talent."
00:35:00
And then as you get older, you realize a lot of your success isn't your fault. And I I literally could go through
00:35:08
and I will my the pillars of my prosperity and they're all under attack in this bill. When I was in fourth grade, when I
00:35:18
was nine, I got I didn't get free lunch, but I got assisted lunch. And the wonderful thing about assisted lunch in
00:35:24
California was they didn't want kids to have stigma. So, they used to send coupons to my house, and they were the same coupons the other kids used.
00:35:31
Yeah. And I've talked about this. When I was 17, my mom became pregnant. If we'd lived in a conservative area in this
00:35:36
era, we wouldn't have been able to access family planning. There's no way I could have gone to college. When I got to college, I got Pell Grants. Now
00:35:43
they're talking about doing away. A third of the kids that receive Pellgel grants now will have a reduction or they'll be done away with. So I couldn't
00:35:49
have graduated from college. And that, let's be clear, that that illuminated or detonated an upward spiral of incredible
00:35:57
prosperity and tens of millions of dollars in taxes paid by yours truly and my companies from the generosity of
00:36:03
California taxpayers and the visions of the University of California, the regents. If I had the C, look at the
00:36:09
companies I started. They were all based on the internet. What if we hadn't had the capital to invest in things like
00:36:14
DARPA because we had been making a trillion dollars a year in interest payments for our debt to prop up the
00:36:19
rich? My first programmer that built my first website, a red envelope, Jawad Muhammad, an immigrant from Pakistan,
00:36:26
the chief merchant at Red Envelope Company I started and took public, an immigrant from Vietnam, the woman who
00:36:32
ran our CPG practice at uh L2, a Canadian immigrant. Immigrants literally built my companies. All of these things, literally all of these things are under attack. And let me go very meta. You
00:36:45
know, I wouldn't be here if America hadn't pushed back on fascism in the late 30s. My mother was a 4-year-old Jew
00:36:53
sleeping in bomb shelters in the London Tube. And we didn't we didn't decide to commit convert all our factories to producing tanks instead of washing machines and to, you know, have 400,000
00:37:04
homes have a gold star in the window because we were pushing back on anti-semitism. We were pushing back on fascism. And what is fascism? The
00:37:11
demonization of immigrants, a refusal to condemn violence against your opponents, and extreme nationalism. Does that sound
00:37:16
familiar? So, if we hadn't gagged on fascism in 39, I, you know, much less everything I talked about previous to this, I might not be here. Nope. So I feel as if you absolutely wouldn't
00:37:30
every reason I get to live the life I live and you know the prosperity the taxes I've paid the kids it it it it really does feel like
00:37:42
everything all the ladders for many of us who are successful the American experience are being pulled up behind
00:37:49
us. It's very upsetting. Well the problem is a lot of people like you don't think that. They think they
00:37:56
did everything on their own. Like, which is incredibly the fact that you think about it is incredibly thoughtful because I mean it's the truth for one,
00:38:03
which is why it's correct. But many people in your in your group doesn't don't think that. They think people are lazy. You want Medicaid, you got to work. That kind of thing when they get free. Like I I grew up pretty rich,
00:38:16
Scott, and I remember a bunch of kids talking about a bunch of the some of the lesser good kids that I went to school
00:38:22
with like, "Oh, they're lazy." I'm like, how the do you know where you would be if you didn't have all this support?
00:38:27
Like very you're so dumb. You're you would be at the you would sink to the bottom of this particular ocean. And I
00:38:34
used to think my grandfather was an immigrant from Italy. Um his father was a stone cutter. um came over from Italy
00:38:41
and he built up a business without very much education and we I I was allowed to
00:38:47
do things because of his entrepreneurship and his father's entrepreneurship and um you know it just
00:38:54
is many many people who are getting these breaks do not realize they are on third base and they feel like they've hit a home run and they treat hardworking people
00:39:06
um I don't know why the dime is just dropping for Joe Rogan. Oh, they're going after con people that work really
00:39:12
hard, construction sites, gardening, all these things that people come here to try to work their way up the American
00:39:19
system, which has been very good for a lot of people. And you're a perfect example of that. To me, honestly, if I
00:39:25
had to pick the most egregious thing is all the money going to ICE and jailing people. Like that to me is terrifying.
00:39:33
the like you you talked about this like a couple billion dollars to help a Pell Grant versus $40 billion to jail people.
00:39:41
There is no economic upside except for a small group of people in jailing hardworking Americans even if they came
00:39:48
here. Figuring out a way to keep them here and working hard would be the better use of that money.
00:39:54
It's there are at the end of the day the president is the ultimate capital allocator and the amount of money we are
00:40:01
spending on harassing people at at Home Depot and at churches and at schools doesn't it tell you something that this is where we're finding these people and instead of taking that what
00:40:13
will I think be now 12 or 11 or 12 million a year you know who's taking your job the the the woman you know
00:40:20
wiping grandma's ass and picking your crops and making sure that The restaurant bill isn't $30, it's 22.
00:40:27
That's not who's taking your job. AI is going to take your job. Do you know what we could do in terms of vocational
00:40:32
training, upskilling people to be more critical thinkers and more skilled and able to handle the new technologies and
00:40:37
the new threats of f? We could be doing so much better with this money to ensure our wages stay high, to ensure there are
00:40:44
good jobs for people, to ensure that we have a safety net, we have great education, we have great infrastructure. For God's sakes, we could take that
00:40:50
money, build, high speed rail networks. We could build nuclear power plants to create an energy efficient or
00:40:55
independent future that would create great jobs. And instead, we're funding what is effectively a modern-day Gestapo
00:41:03
with Wi-Fi. I mean, y, you know what? I'd like the money to be like, why don't we take the money and
00:41:08
give it to sirens along the flood corridor? Why not? Like, that's something useful. All those people would
00:41:13
have died. All that incredible economic devastation prevention. like it's it is you know your story is exactly correct and I wish more people like you spoke like this that in terms of I don't
00:41:26
understand why they don't something happens when you get to be a certain wealth that you think you did it all
00:41:31
yourself like I I you hang out with those people more than I do but I'm I've always been perplexed by their inability
00:41:39
to understand how they got to where they got maybe they grew up rich and didn't know or something like that I don't know
00:41:45
I don't know most of my friends are suitably freaked out and one one stat 6,500 people in Q1
00:41:51
of this year applied for UK passports from the US who are wealthy and that's a record and I think there's a lot of
00:41:58
people who recognize that that again a lot of their successes and I follow them even going back to your parents or your
00:42:05
grandfather who was an immigrant how many immigrants how many really talented hungry people are going to think you
00:42:10
know what if I'm going to take a risk am I going to take a risk to go to America and face those risks but in addition I
00:42:16
have to face the risk of having my phone taken away and maybe being rounded up. I mean, right now it's like who who wants
00:42:24
to go to America right now? You just and the thing is we're the best place for them to do that. It's not like
00:42:29
Europe is full of innovation and entrepreneur [Music] aerospace company called Vertical. And in the last three months, we have seen a fairly serious uptick in investors
00:42:47
interested in finding out more about the company because quite frankly, for the first time, they're no longer defaulting to just investing in American companies.
00:42:54
That's going to impact that's just going to make it much harder for American companies. We have taken for granted just how deep the capital pool is. I was
00:43:01
a 27year-old out of business school with a shaved head, which meant in in San Francisco, you could raise tens of
00:43:06
millions of dollars for your startups. You can't do that in Poland. You can't even do that in Australia. No.
00:43:12
And we've taken that for granted. And the reason why all of those people were willing to provide so much capital was
00:43:18
because of things like rule of law and that we attracted the best and brightest from around the world. And we funded
00:43:24
universities. We funded universities to do incredible forwardleaning crazy investments that
00:43:29
might result in GPS. And all of those things are under attack. Yeah. Trump is, you know, I one thing
00:43:37
I'm I'm thinking about his age all the time. I'm like, he's old. He doesn't give a because he's not going to be
00:43:42
here for the future, you know, for the real future, which is now do Congress and Senate. That's a big
00:43:48
problem. I agree. I think we should keep People are People have accused us of being agist. I don't care at this point.
00:43:53
So is biology. Twothirds of Congress is going to be dead in 25 years. Are they really that worried about climate
00:43:59
change? Are they really freaked out about the deficit? Yeah. I mean, it's like my dad says, my dad
00:44:05
takes all these drugs now. And I'm like, and I once said to him, you know, you got to think about the long-term effects. And he's like, dude, long-term
00:44:11
effects are not effects for me any longer. Yeah, that's a fair point. My grandmother, I tried to get her to eat broccoli when she was like, what's the
00:44:18
point? Have the ice cream pancakes. She literally ate donuts and drank black coffee. And I said, "Can't you have a
00:44:24
little broccoli?" She goes, "Is it going to help?" I said, "It is not." And she said, "Therefore, I shall not eat it." She hated broccoli her whole life.
00:44:31
Um, it would have been good earlier. Um, let me just move on very quickly. Trump still has more deal making supposedly to
00:44:37
do. The 90-day pause on the Liberation Day tariffs is coming to an end. He was supposed to do 90 deals in 90 days have
00:44:43
yet to materialize. Most of them are show pony deals. Um the White House will be sending letters to countries
00:44:49
apparently detailing the new tariff rates, some as high as 70%, uh Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant, the pissy one,
00:44:55
shared a bit more on CNN over the weekend saying if countries don't make a deal by August 1st, they'll boomerang
00:45:01
back to their April level tariffs. Bessant insisted August 1st is not a new deadline even though it is. Scott, stop being I'm curious what he wants now with
00:45:11
Elon out of the way. Anyway, uh by the way, Scott, just because Elon's an doesn't mean you're not. Um so
00:45:17
what do you what do you think's going to happen here? I think it's already happened. I think the majority of the world has said hold
00:45:22
my beer. There's 150 nations. The deal with Vietnam is real. That's one. I think there's another small and most
00:45:28
of these things aren't even deals. their frameworks to talk about it. The whole world has basically stuck up the middle finger to us and is busy reestablishing or rrooting their supply chain around
00:45:40
us. These things have not worked. They're going to look remarkably similar to the great tariff strategy of Georando
00:45:46
and other people and other like secretaries of commerce and trade who've actually done the work that we've had
00:45:52
previously. All we will have done was was massively incented South Korea and Japan to start talking to China, for Latin America to start talking to Europe, and for people no longer to
00:46:04
trust doing business with the US. But this is all I mean, almost nobody has come to the
00:46:10
table as far as I can tell. Mhm. I agree. I mean, this is just ridiculous. He's still taco. He's still
00:46:15
taco. Trump always chickens out. Um, it's just been a lot of He's a lot of handwaving, this fella. He's It's
00:46:21
ridiculous. In this case, he's just caused a lot of chaos and actually helped our helped our competitors
00:46:26
constantly helped them. Anyway, we'll see. 90 days. You got a few more days, Trump. There you go. You got good luck.
00:46:32
Good luck with your 90. My favorite thing is Carl Kinttonia from uh CNBC is very sassy. He's a great follow. And also on um all the other social he's like day 67, no deals. Like he's very
00:46:47
sassy. I love him. Anyway, um one more quick break. will be back for wins and fails. Scott, uh, I
00:46:54
see that you've put in much many notes here in your wins and fails. I'm going to let you go first. UVA has been in the in the press because
00:47:00
the president, first off, the whole idea of a deal is not what the president is supposed to do. The president is
00:47:07
supposed to hire really talented people and then create systemic laws and and treaties that impact everyone individually. Up until this president, you weren't supposed to target your
00:47:18
political enemies or go after individual promote or punish individuals or companies. That is the definition of an
00:47:24
autocracy. And of course, he goes after the president of UVA for because they had a disagreement over DEI. And for a
00:47:32
long time, I have been saying the DEI apparatus at university should be disassembled. That it outlived its
00:47:37
usefulness and was now eating its tail. Having said that, private universities uh or universities public and private continue to show just remarkable ROI
00:47:48
both on a societal, a cultural and an economic level. And of course, the president targeted UVA and the president
00:47:55
being a good man said it's not worth it's not, you know, this is not worth the fight. This is not the beach I want
00:48:00
to die on and resigned. And I just wanted to highlight what a gift UVA is and how important an institution it is. Just be clear. Just to be cleared up, it's the president of UVA, not the president of the United States.
00:48:12
Oh, I'm sorry. The president of UVA was got in basically the president President Trump targeted this guy
00:48:17
because he didn't like his DEI efforts. And the president of UVA has decided to kind of jump on a sword and step down cuz he's like, I don't want the university to feel the wrath of the
00:48:29
president who is willing to target individual institutions, you know, because he has basically, you
00:48:35
know, a beef against me. He did he did the honorable thing. A lot of people wanted him to stay and fight, but he
00:48:42
said it's not worth it. I care more about the university than my personal reputation or ego. He did in my opinion
00:48:47
kind of the heroic thing here. But my win is essentially a when I was right out of graduate school, I started profit and we immediately noticed that we had
00:48:59
really good luck with these incredibly hardworking people who were also very nice and kind of easygoing. And what did
00:49:06
they have in common? They went to UVA. And so we started recruiting from Darden and UVA undergrad. And generally we
00:49:12
found kids who went to UVA. We're essentially like the smartest kid in the public high school in the northeastern
00:49:18
Virginia. And this is an unbelievable institution. And one of the things I love about this institution I think is
00:49:23
set the tone for its success is that when Jefferson founded the University of Virginia, which by the way is not his
00:49:29
tombstone, that is the thing he was most proud of. He decided it was the first major academic institution that didn't
00:49:36
have a chapel. He wanted it to be the pursuit of enlightenment of intellectual enlightenment as opposed to an orthodoxy or a religion. Uh it's a UNESCO World
00:49:48
Heritage site with debt-free graduation for low-income students providing elite education uh that can serve as economic mobility, not just privilege. It has
00:49:59
this really fantastic um construct or and and these these people I used to work with used to reference it all the time and that is their honor code and the legacy of their honor code. They have this studentr run honor system
00:50:10
since 1842 that creates graduates known for integrity across professions institutionalizing the character
00:50:17
democracy requires. They have produced multiple Supreme Court justices, national leaders across party lines and
00:50:23
not only that, a lot of leaders across both parties and then uh unbelievable excellence, consistently rated as one of the three top public universities in the nation at a reasonable cost. And so and
00:50:38
UVA really does represent America at its best. Jefferson's belief that democracy
00:50:43
depends on educated cit uh citizens, accessible excellence, honor and integrity, and merit-based opportunity
00:50:50
rather than an inherited privilege. Anyways, this I just thought it was an opportunity. My win is the great
00:50:57
University of Virginia UVA. I think it's an incredible institution that offers it's beautiful, too.
00:51:02
Oh, it's the most I didn't get in. Caris Fisher didn't get in. Three most beautiful campuses in the
00:51:07
nation are one Pepperdine because it overlooks the coastline Pacific. Uh Duke, that's an incredible campus and
00:51:13
UVA that architecture and the long I mean that is it's extraordinary. Anyways, my win is is this gift to America, the
00:51:22
great institution that is uh UVA. Wow. All right. Should I do my win or shall I wait for your
00:51:27
You do your win. Well, I was just going to say old guard too with Charize the I don't know what to say. I'm so y the great embody American
00:51:41
greatness. Can I just say Charlies Theren embodies lady greatness along with Uma Thurman
00:51:46
and I it's getting okay reviews. I you people who don't like it. It's so good. Olgard one was about this bunch of
00:51:53
immortals and Charlie Theren was the first one. Total playing lesbian. I love Charlies Theren when she does the
00:51:59
lesbian thing, which she's done before. So good. So good. The new one, she has a new really gay haircut. And it's so The
00:52:07
whole cast is fantastic. It's kickass. Uh Uma Thurman's great. Uh it's it's obviously going to be there's going to be a third old guard 3 because of the way they leave it. Um and I just loved
00:52:18
it so much. And there's a whole the whole lesbians who don't kiss in it that are is really good. I know they should
00:52:24
have kissed, but I don't care because it was so it doesn't matter. It was so lesbiancoded. Um, so I love the whole
00:52:29
thing, Lesbians with Swords and and Spears and etc. I like the entire endeavor and women dominate this
00:52:36
particular It's on Netflix and I love it so very much and uh I just do. It's done by Sky Dance. I don't always agree with
00:52:43
the Ellison's but thank you David Ellison for this one. Um, and uh you can go with your loss. I think you should do your fail. I think my fail. Okay, this is too much change.
00:52:54
Yeah. Yeah. UVA American Greatness and Gmerson's Democratic Vision made real. Watch Old Guard 2 and be happy. Now, now let me just tell you quietly. Amanda's mad I watched it cuz I forgot I watched
00:53:06
Olgard one with her and I'm going to watch it again. Amanda, I promise. I'm so sorry. I just I watched it on the
00:53:12
plane. It was so delightful. I I will watch it a second time. Yeah, the whole you watch it without me thing has taken off. That usually
00:53:18
happens about year five or six. I'm glad you graduated. I know. Can I just say she just said you're not investing in our relationship. She was copying you and I
00:53:24
was like, I don't need Scott said back at me because I watched the Fantastic Lesbian show. Uh, my win is my loss, my fail is I'm
00:53:32
going to read this right now, which is repulsive. US measles cases reach a 33-year record high as outbreak spread.
00:53:39
How can I put this delicately? you, RFK Jr., you best friend of measles. How dare you? This was something we had completely un We had it eliminated in 2000. We had it eliminated. Can I tell
00:53:52
you I find you completely responsible for this. I to call No, you're a murderer. You're a murderer of children and people died very quickly in this flooding. Um but people are dying
00:54:04
slowly. It really puts so many people out of um in in danger and it you should get a measel booster if you need to. You should check and get one. It's a terrible disease for adults
00:54:16
particularly. I got checked and I pretty much am okay, but I one of my vaccines was not uh was not current and I got that. Um please check and and it's very easy to go to a CVS or anywhere else or
00:54:28
Walgreens to get checked for that especially if you're in a certain age group. Um in this I think in the 60s
00:54:34
there was like some problem with one of the it wasn't it didn't last essentially. It wasn't a problem with the vaccine itself. It was it was the
00:54:41
efficacy of it. So Robert Kennedy Jr. this measel's outbreak is is on you and what you have done is reprehensible and heinous and uh I hope someday karma will
00:54:55
reach you in the same way these poor people have even if they didn't take vaccines not a smart move by parents but
00:55:02
in this case um just awful fail fail fail every fail in the book go ahead Scott agreed well you referenced my fail my fail is the recent expansion of ICE funding which is less about border
00:55:15
enforcement and more about building an ideological enforcement arm. And people always get upset when I compare um
00:55:22
America to Germany in the 30 or to Trump to Hitler. And you don't have to be Hitler to take a a page out of his playbook. And this is absolutely out of the playbook. It's a surveillance. It's
00:55:34
a surveillance state light on law. Uh the Gestapo is powerful not because of its size. And I'm I am equating ICE to
00:55:42
the Gestapo. Let's not dance around. I am comparing the two organizations. It operated outside the law. No
00:55:49
warrants, no oversight. ICE is increasingly mirroring the Gestapo, expanding digital surveillance, facial
00:55:55
recognition, license plate tracking, all with minimal judicial review. It's a civil agency essentially behaving as an
00:56:02
intelligence unit. It's the militarization of bureaucracy. ICE was supposed to be about paperwork, visa
00:56:08
overstays, customs violations, and today they've got drones, tactical teams, armored vehicles. We've essentially militarized a civil agency, not to fight terrorists, but to raid meatacking
00:56:21
plants and detain families. And that's not it's not national security, it's pageantry and fear. And this this whole
00:56:29
notion, the Gustapo and the SS were famous for turning identity into a crime. and that is they targeted
00:56:35
identity, not behavior. ICE overwhelmingly targets immigrants from specific racial and religious groups
00:56:41
backed by rhetoric that frames them as animals or invaders. This is about signaling who belongs and who doesn't,
00:56:48
similar to what they were doing to Jews and other uh special interest group in Germany in the 30s. That's not law
00:56:54
enforcement. It's fascism. Uh ICE is becoming increasingly unaccountable and untouchable. Similar to the Gestapo, ICE
00:57:01
operates in legal gray zones. No consistent court oversight, limited transparency. Whistleblowers report
00:57:07
neglect, abuse, even forced sterilizations, and the agency keeps getting funded no matter the headlines.
00:57:14
Fear is policy. This is total intimidation as government. The most chilling parallel is fear between ICE
00:57:21
and the Gestapo. The Gestapo made you afraid to speak. ICE makes people afraid to go to court, school, even church. And
00:57:28
that's the whole point. Uh fear keeps people quiet. Alligator Alcatraz. What's wrong with that? That one is
00:57:35
that's that's not incarceration or civics. That's fear. And it's also a step towards
00:57:40
authoritarianism. And and even just on the logistical level, the size of the force, ICE in 2025 will be 21,000
00:57:46
employees. That's approximately 7,000 enforcement and removal operations officers. The Gestapo at its peak in
00:57:51
1944 was 32,000 for an entire continent under Nazi occupation. And we're now funding ICE at five times what Nazi Germany spent on its secret police
00:58:02
adjusted for 20 $24. We're going to spend about 11 billion. Estimates are that the Gestapo required two billion in
00:58:09
funding. So we're doing so with less resistance and more bureaucracy. ICE is already operating with Gestapo level scale in terms of headcount relative to its jurisdiction. And it's not fighting
00:58:22
World War II. It's deporting line cooks and Uber drivers. And this isn't I I don't think I'm being an alarmist here. Fascism doesn't also their outfits suck. Their out
00:58:32
also the masks the they're wearing masks if they really believe in what they're doing. The Nazis didn't have masks. They
00:58:39
wore their outfits but not their brown shirts. What's worse? A brown shirt or a a brown shirt or a mask.
00:58:45
So I I don't think this is has a Star Wars resonance, don't you think? Like a little remember on Star
00:58:50
Wars I think it has a Nazi they had masks reference. Look. No, I get that. But that they were based
00:58:55
on the Nazis. But if you recall the masks on on in that metaphor in a lot of ways. But go ahead. So fascism doesn't start with death camps. You don't just wake up to Achvitz. It starts with bureaucracy,
00:59:07
badges, and silence. And if we don't challenge these tools now, they'll be used on all of us later. So this is my
00:59:18
loss is uh what is becoming an American Gestapa with mass and with bureaucratic language and five times the funding and has a a a number of striking
00:59:29
resemblances. Essentially Trump now has his own private army under his control and it's there for intimidation. It's
00:59:36
there for fear mixed with pageantry. And again, and I keep coming back to this folks. If you believe that we cannot be that nation again, you don't know history. Germany was the most
00:59:48
enlightened society in history. It was pro-immigrant. It was progay. It had a thriving economy. And then it had
00:59:54
economic shocks, too many young men without without prospects, a strong man, and uh a level of basically a media that decided to demonize immigrants. And it
01:00:06
militarized and turned. So anyways, my fail is the increasing militarization of what is supposed to be a civic um a
01:00:13
civic agency and that is ICE which has remarkable echoes of uh the Gestapo in late 30s and early 40s Germany. God, I'm so serious today. I know you are. Um I may add that tech
01:00:25
companies are working handin glove with these things getting their um getting they're they're at the trough of this
01:00:31
particular trough and they will be in general because they do not care as I've said over and over again and they will
01:00:36
be part of this and surveillance. We should all be scared of a surveillance economy and Scott is 100% correct and
01:00:43
Olgard too. Yes. But this is much more important. Um anyway, the lesbians are going to save you. We're the lesbians are going to have to save you with our spears and and kickassness. Anyway, we want to hear
01:00:57
from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot
01:01:02
to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. And I just want to say Scott, I
01:01:07
like serious Scott just as much as I like penis joke Scott. Anyway, elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe on the
01:01:14
latest episode of On with Cara Swisser, I spoke with journalists Isaac Arndorf, Josh Dossi, and Tyler Pager about their
01:01:20
new book on the 2024 election. It's actually quite a really interesting book. Let's listen to a clip of Tyler
01:01:25
talking about how Kla Harris didn't have enough distance from Joe Biden. the way
01:01:31
that they framed her as a vice president was in the room for all the big decisions, the last person to leave and
01:01:36
intimately involved in everything. Now, that wasn't true, but that was the narrative that they were out there saying. And so, it then makes it harder
01:01:42
to be like, actually, I disagreed with X, Y, and Z policy because then she opens herself up to, okay, so why did
01:01:48
you go along with it? Why didn't you speak up? That's a really good point. We'll see if she she may be running for governor, so
01:01:53
we'll see if she comes back and what happens. I think that's a good idea. I'm curious what you think of that. I don't know. No, I think she should
01:01:58
wait around and become a Supreme Court justice. I agree with that. I think they should put her up for a Supreme Court justice. Um, I don't know. She could
01:02:05
really drive Trump crazy. At her best, she she really drives Trump crazy. And so, in that regard, being governor of
01:02:11
California gives you a nice place to do that. Uh, as I think Newsome has taken advantage of it. So, in that regard,
01:02:17
yes, I think if KML at her best could be very good as a foil. Um but if the Democrats take over, by the way, the first thing the Democrats should do if they get control of Congress is shut
01:02:27
down that ICE funding rather significantly. Turn it around. Anyway, um that's the show. Thanks for listening
01:02:34
to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.
01:02:41
Today's show is produced by Larara Name and Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Kevin Oliver, and Karen Ruff. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks
01:02:47
also to Drew Burrough, Miss Cro, and Dan Shalon. Shak Kuras, Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure
01:02:53
to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.
01:02:58
You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and
01:03:05
business. Cara, have a great rest of the week. It's good to see you again.