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this podcast is brought to you by
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Warton welcome to knowledge at Wharton
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I'm Angie basuni I'm here with one of my
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favorite guests marketing Professor
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Jonah Burger he's here to talk to us
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about his latest research on
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storytelling his co-authored paper is
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titled seeing your life's story as a
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hero's journey can increase meaning in
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life and it's all about how people can
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find uh more well-being and more
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resilience if they make themselves the
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hero of Their Own Story Jonah thanks for
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coming back thanks so much for having me
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so let's get into this uh in your paper
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you have this great quote that says
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people's minds are made for narratives I
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love that I think it explains why we all
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love a good story a good biopic explain
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what this research is about yeah so
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first it might be worth talking about
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what a hero's journey is right so if
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you've ever watched a famous movie like
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Star Wars or Harry Potter you're
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probably familiar with this old idea of
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a hero's journey which is there's some
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sort of protagonist maybe it's Luke
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Skywalker maybe it's Harry Potter maybe
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it's someone else uh and they go through
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a journey to reach some sort of outcome
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at the end right um there's a shift in
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their lives that things start ordinary
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and then suddenly they become
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extraordinary they go on a quest they
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meet allies or friends along the way
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think about Yoda or Hermione and and
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others they deal with some challenge
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there's some foe or enemy they must
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overcome they undergo some
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transformation where they change and and
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eventually they sort of have a positive
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outcome at the end and so things like a
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hero's journey make stories really
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engaging right they make movies fun to
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watch they make books fun to read but we
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wondered okay Beyond these things for
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entertainment value beyond the value of
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a hero's journey for sort of being
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engaging could using a hero's journey
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and the way we talk about our own lives
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actually make us better
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off well how did you go about studying
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this so so we did a number of things so
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so first really tried to quantify what
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the hero's journey is uh we looked at a
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variety of types of stories and content
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to sort of figure out what the key
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dimensions are and and there're some of
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the things I talked about before right
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there there needs to be a protagonist
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that proverbial sort of hero in that
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hero's journey there needs to be some
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sort of shift right of going from daily
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life and ordinary things to something
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more unusual uh happening there needs to
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be some sort of quest or goal uh and
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along the way they need to overcome
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something there need to be some sort of
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barriers or challenges whether they may
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be a villain or connecting with someone
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else or creative problem solving often
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they meet allies along the way that they
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connect with often there's some sort of
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transformation and there's some sort of
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positive outcome at the end and so we
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started by figuring out what these key
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dimensions are looking at a lot of
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different stories and a lot of different
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context um and then we said okay given
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we understand what Hero's Journeys are
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now can we use these Journeys to to help
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people and so we started by looking at
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just a natural study of existing stories
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and and meaning in life we looked at
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hundreds of different people and we
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measured both how they saw their lives
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we asked them to write sort of the story
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of their lives and we measured this
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dimension of of a hero's journey did
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they tend to see their lives as a hero's
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journey or not um and then we looked at
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how meaningful uh they saw their lives
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looking back on sort of what they had
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done so far uh what they had overcome uh
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either in their personal or professional
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lives how much meaning they saw in those
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in those personal profal lives what we
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found sure enough is that seeing one's
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life as a hero's journey was related to
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seeing it as more meaningful people who
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had more of these things in the way they
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saw their lives that the way they talked
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about their stories had more allies and
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challenges and quests and sort of
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overcoming these barriers to reach
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positive outcomes they tended to see
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their lives as as more meaningful now
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that by itself is interesting right but
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it's not enough maybe people who tend to
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see their lives as a hero's journey
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naturally see their lives as more
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meaningful but it's it's not that the
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hero's journey made them see their lives
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as more meaningful they're just certain
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types of people that tend to do both
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both and so we wondered okay could we
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encourage people to see their lives as a
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hero's journey and in so doing help them
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make their own lives seem more
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meaningful and so what we did there is
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we prompted people to reflect on
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important elements of their lives and
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connect them into a compelling and
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coherent narrative we gave them this
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idea of a hero's journey and encouraged
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them to see their lives along those
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lines and what we found is sure enough
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doing that for one set of people made
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them see their lives as more meaningful
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taking the same life that you may have
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had but organizing in that way rather
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than seeing it as sort of a random set
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of things that occurred over time really
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seeing it as hero's journey made one's
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life more more meaningful and that can
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be both in our personal or professional
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lives right seeing your work life seeing
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your resume for example not just as a a
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bunch of different jobs over time but
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thinking about okay what's the what's
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the journey you've been on what are some
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of the challenges you've had to overcome
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what is that Quest or goal you're hoping
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to achieve who are some of the allies
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that you've met along the way how have
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you been TR transformed by that process
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all of those characteristics that make
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hero's journey so engaging to listen to
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his stories also help make our own
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Journeys seem more meaningful and they
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also help us be more resilient as well
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folks that were encouraged to see one's
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life as a hero's journey uh or one's uh
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work Life as a hero's journey it ended
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up making them more resilient uh as well
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and so I think this has some important
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implications both for our personal and
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our professional lives tell me what the
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takeaway from this research is when I'm
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listening to you talk I almost feel like
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there's a component of
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self-confidence uh that comes along when
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you rewrite or shame fra Fram shift your
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own narrative instead of going oh I I
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had this problem and I couldn't solve it
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you can think about all the ways that
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you met that challenge and how you
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either overcame it or you know you're
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like oh next time I'll do better I've
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learned these things so it can help
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build your self-confidence so talk about
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what's the biggest takeaway for folks in
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this research yeah I think the biggest
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takeaway is this you know our lives are
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what our lives are our work Journeys our
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work experiences have been what what
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they are and so we can't change what
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they've been but we can change how we
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see them right we can change how we
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organize them we can change how we think
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about them um most of us really are on a
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journey right there have been things
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we've done along the way but we had some
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sort of vision of who we hope to be and
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and maybe we've gotten there maybe we've
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changed that Vision but we we have been
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on a journey and so seeing Our Lives as
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that Journey organizing it in that way
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recognizing those challenges that we've
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overcome those those barriers that we've
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dealt with the ways that we've been
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transformed the the goals that we had
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and and how we've achieved them seeing
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our lives in in that way can impact how
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we feel and and how we resilient we we
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are and So Stories aren't just fun and
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interesting and engaging they also have
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important implications for how we see
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ourselves and and how we may perform in
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the future So This research really does
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fit squarely into social psychology but
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can you translate for us uh the business
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context how can people use this
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information in a business context yeah
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so um uh I'll start with a couple uh
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examples and then I'll get to one that's
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close to my own heart which is which is
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marketing so um first just from a
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personal well-being standpoint right
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seeing Our Lives as these Journeys can
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have a beneficial impact right they can
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help us see our own lives uh as as more
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meaningful I think secondly though right
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we should think about how we pitch
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ourselves how we tell our own stories
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and and there's been a lot of interest
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in the in the past few years in the idea
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narratives and telling our story um uh
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with the the Advent and sort of growth
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of social media more people are online
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dripping details of their life out on a
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momentto moment or daily or weekly or or
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monthly basis but in in dripping out
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those moments and in talking about
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what's happening to us we have the
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ability to shape that narrative both
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when we post on social media but also
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when we go in for an interview for for
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example what should we talk about how
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should we frame our experience and and
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how might the way we tell our story
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shape how we are perceived and and so I
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think this this work has some important
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implications for for those types of
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questions right when we're in an
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interview and someone asks us about our
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work experience not just saying well I
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worked here and there and this other
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place but really talking about it as a
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journey right helping the The Listener
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see well what quest were we on what did
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we overcome what challenges did we deal
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with how have we been transformed by
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that process organizing in that coherent
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and and engaging narrative will not only
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be fun to listen to but will increase
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our likelihood of of getting that job
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and then in terms of marketing you know
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it's interesting marketers are also
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telling narratives and products and
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services often feature heavily in those
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narratives right products and services
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help consumers solve problems and and
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achieve their goals but there different
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ways companies can talk about the role
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of products and services in those
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narratives a couple years ago I was
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working with a large multinational uh
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consumer packaged goods company uh and
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they had a campaign where um uh people
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could buy their product and be entered
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in a chance to win a college scholarship
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so it was sort of uh in De in the
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developing world uh it was very hard for
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many individuals to to get the money to
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go to college um and this program gave
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people an opportunity through
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essentially a lottery or a raffle uh if
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you bought the product you were entered
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in this thing and you could have an
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opportunity to go to college now this
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program is a great program doing a lot
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of social good but it wasn't getting a
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lot of positive attention it wasn't
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getting a lot of Word of Mouth people
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weren't talking about it a lot and so
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the company reached out and said hey how
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can we get more earned media for what
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we're doing how can we help this program
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have more impact and and one thing we
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did is we analyzed this program in terms
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of of a hero's journey and what we
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realized is the hero of that story was
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the company right there was a consumer
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the consumer had a problem right there
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was a in some sense a challenge they
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wanted to overcome they wanted to get
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more educated um and the company was the
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hero by buying the company's product the
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consumer could uh have a positive
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outcome but here's the problem if the
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company's the hero that makes the
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company look pretty good but it doesn't
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really make people want to talk about it
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that much right the couple people that
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win yeah they were very excited and told
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others but a whole bunch of people lost
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most people didn't win the prize right
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and so how could we get them more
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engaged and what we realize is well a
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better story isn't a story where the
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product or service is the hero but
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whether the consumer or customer is the
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hero right that's a much more engaging
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story where they're more likely to be a
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part um and so rather than making sort
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of the the company the the hero if you
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will the the sword that slays the dragon
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uh in this hero story what we realize is
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hey wait a second actually the customer
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is the hero right by voting on which
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individual should get the opportunity to
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go based on their story or helping
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people in their Community get upvoted to
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have more of a chance to win this prize
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they can now participate they have a
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role in this narrative and yes the
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company's still there right the company
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is helping but the consumer is enabling
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this Dragon to be slayed by by
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leveraging this program the company has
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and so by seeing that program as more of
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a hero's journey we enabled it to be
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more effective overall by by
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reconceptualizing the the way it was
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expressed and you're actually pulling
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the audience or the consumer into the
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story Into the hero's journey making
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them a part of it which would ultimately
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make it more effective for the marketing
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certainly right I mean I think we often
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have to think of who is a hero in the
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hero's journey and who is a villain
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right there needs to be a hero and there
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needs to be a villain that's that's
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often what these Journeys have or a
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challenge doesn't have to be a villain
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um but what should the product or
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service or different individuals play in
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that in that Journey right allies serve
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a nice role because they can be helpful
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and so maybe it's better rather than the
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company being the hero that that
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overcomes the challenge which is a neat
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story but doesn't really feature me as
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the consumer maybe now hold on I'm the
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hero in my own journey I want to
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overcome my own personal Challenge and
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the company is the Ally or the tool that
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that helps me get there when you were
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speaking earlier about uh management and
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interviewing techniques it made me think
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about these very common interviewing
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questions when people go to apply for a
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job and and you're often asked tell me
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about a problem that you solved at work
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or tell me how you get along with other
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people or you your conflict resolution
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skills so I think if you if if you think
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about your your hero's journey story you
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can sort of come up with better answers
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during an interview yeah and and rather
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than the the aners seeming like
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individual examples of things that don't
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fit together you can make it more of a
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common hole right what is the story you
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want to tell about yourself right what
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what is the hero's journey you're on
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what is the transformation you've
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already uh had and what's the quest
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you'd like to be on in the future right
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and how does this new role help you in
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that journey and and the more rather
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than oh you know here's a thing that
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happened to me the more it's part of a
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cohesive narrative that showcases how
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you've overcome things in the past and
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been transformed and how you're likely
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to do that in the future the more
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engaging it will be for the audience and
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and the more impactful it will be as
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well that's what we're all about thank
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you for being here Jonah thanks for
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having me all right his study again is
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titled seeing your life story as a
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hero's journey increases meaning in life
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it appears in the Journal of Personality
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and Social
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Psychology if you enjoyed this
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conversation we invite you to check out
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more of our content on our website just
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type knowledge at Wharton into your
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search bar I'm Angie basuni thanks for
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