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hi my name is Richard shell I'm here
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with Reza aen the author of zealot The
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Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth uh
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and I'm proud to say that we're happy at
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Wharton to uh host a best-selling author
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uh and someone who knows more than
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probably most people living about the
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facts of the this life of Jesus so
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welcome Rea thank you thanks for having
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me uh Rea um I'm U curious about how
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this book came to uh be next on the
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plate you've written about Islam you've
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written about fundamentalism both of
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which are sort of Islamic oriented
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Middle East subjects but how did how did
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the idea of writing a life of Jesus come
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to your mind well it turns out Jesus is
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Middle Eastern
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too true um no I've actually been in
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wanting to write this book for a very
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long time it actually has its source in
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my uh undergraduate thesis work at Santa
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Clara University which was on something
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called the Messianic Secret in mark this
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very difficult to understand uh thing
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that happens with in the First Gospel
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where Jesus is constantly denying his
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Messianic identity constantly rejecting
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it when other people throw it at him and
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Scholars have been trying to figure out
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for 200 years why that is and I wrote a
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little little thesis on it that then
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became kind of the impetus for wanting
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to dig deeper and deeper into the
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historical Jesus um it's just that I
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didn't get a chance to actually write
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the book itself until until now
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okay great um well um for our listeners
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um I think it would be helpful to start
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this if you could just give us sort of
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your thesis in a nutshell so uh you can
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sort of set the plate right well this is
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a book this it's a biography of the
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historical Jesus the man who lived 2,000
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years ago this itinerant Jewish preacher
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who despite his illiteracy his lack of
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Education started a movement uh that uh
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that was seen as so revolutionary at the
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time so threatening to the political
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religious powers of the of the day that
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he was ultimately arrested tortured and
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executed for it it's an attempt to kind
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of dig through all of the layers of
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Mythology and interpretation the Legends
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and theology that have Arisen about this
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man over the last 2,000 years and to see
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as much as possible how we can get to
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the person himself it's a admittedly
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quite a difficult task it's one that has
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been uh a part of a quest for the
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historical Jesus for two centuries now
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and really what I'm trying to do is
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distill these 200 years of academic
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scholarship and Research into something
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that's appealing that's popular uh and
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meant for a general audience people who
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are interested in trying to figure out
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who this man was over and Beyond what
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the sort of Christian Traditions about
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him have created and who he is is a
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Jewish nationalist revolutionary who
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like the dozen or so other Messiah as of
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his time had at as his chief goal the
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removal of the Roman occupation from the
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holy land so people who are familiar
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with the Bible I think have an image of
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Jesus as sort of sitting in a meadow
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with a group of children uh uh and birds
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on his shoulders looking at mustard
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seeds and flowers uh and your image of
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Jesus is much closer to the one of the
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uh powerful physical person who could
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overturn the tables of money changers
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well look if you know nothing else about
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Jesus except that he was crucified you
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know enough to at the very least begin
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to question that image that you're
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referring to of this pacifistic preacher
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of good works with no interest in the
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cares of this world crucifixion was a
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punishment that Rome reserved almost
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exclusively for crimes against the state
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crimes like sedition or Insurrection
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treason Rebellion that's all that you
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could be crucified for so again if
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that's all you know about Jesus then you
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know enough to think that perhaps this
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guy was a little bit more of a
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troublemaker a little more revolutionary
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than we we perhaps think the image of
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Jesus as this celestial spirit with no
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concern over uh anything about this
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world that Jesus frankly would have gone
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totally unnoticed by Rome interesting so
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um um I think you know a lot of people
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when they just encounter the Bible have
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this puzzle you know what did this guy
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do that deserve this punishment so
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you're saying well what let's look at
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the punishment and go back to see what
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he must have done precisely that's
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exactly where you start at the end of
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the story not the beginning of the story
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this man was at the very least seen as a
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rebel as as seditious and let's be
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honest I mean if he did declare himself
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to be the Messiah that is a treasonable
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offense in the first century the Messiah
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means the anointed one the job of the
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Messiah as the descendant of King David
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is to reestablish David's Kingdom on
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Earth to usher in the rule of God well
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if you're claiming to usher in the rule
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of God you're claiming to Usher out the
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rule of Caesar and that is something
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that the Romans would not have ignored
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right yeah I remember the first time I
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read the Bible uh just on my own I I
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remember being struck at about Midway
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through the second gospel Jesus was a
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Jew who let who did who kept the secret
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for me it's funny that you say that
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because
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that really is the key to understanding
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the historical Jesus and it seems
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obvious I mean everybody thinks
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everybody knows Jesus is a Jew but there
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are consequences to that fact which is
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that everything that Jesus said or did
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he said or did as a Jew that every word
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that came out of his mouth has to be
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understood in the Jewish context that
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his audience were Jews so when Jesus
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said I am the Messiah he meant the Jew
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Jewish Messiah and every Jew who heard
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that understood what that meant when he
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uh overturned the tables of the money
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changers when he talked about the
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kingdom of God as a very real thing on
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earth those were the statements by a Jew
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about Judaism for Jews and that should
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immediately change the way that you read
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the gospels the gospels were written by
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Christians but they're written about a
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Jew that uh I remember I read the Bible
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all the way through in a relatively
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short amount of time and when I hit the
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New Testament I suddenly started hearing
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uh verses I'd heard before and they were
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all from the prophets and and various
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things so I started circling passages
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that that I could find in another book
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in the Old Testament and it really
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became obvious that he was referencing a
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tradition so referencing a tradition and
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what's really fascinating too about what
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you just said is that we have to
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understand
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the the direction where that prophecy
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goes so obviously a person of Faith a
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person a Believer thinks that Jesus
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fulfilled these prophecies that were
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written by the Hebrew prophets in
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reality the gospel writers wrote Jesus's
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story in a way to fulfill those
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prophecies so for instance one of the
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prophecy says that the Messiah has to be
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born in Bethlehem but Jesus was not born
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in Bethlehem Jesus was a nazaran that's
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how he was known throughout his entire
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life so the Gospel of Luke has to figure
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out a way to make Jesus fit the prophecy
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and so he creates this entire story
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about a census that forces Jesus's
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family to uproot themselves from
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Nazareth and go to Bethlehem where where
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he is born that's how the prophecies
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were fulfilled you take the story of
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Jesus and you shift it so that it fits
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the prophecy not the other way around in
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uh in U law we call that reverse
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engineering right right precis so U so
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let me ask you a couple of things that
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might be of interest to our audience who
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are business uh leaders uh people
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interested in business uh just because
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you know so much about the historical
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life of Jesus and sort of put it in
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context for us so uh uh in your view
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having studied uh all the records do you
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think that Jesus was an effective
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leader let's let's talk about the basic
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facts of this man's life he is
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illiterate as 98% of his fellow Jews
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were totally uneducated if he was a
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tekon like the gospel say uh he was at
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the second lowest rung of the social
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ladder just above the slave the Indigent
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and the beggar the tekon is a tecton is
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a woodworker you know we always think of
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him as as a carpenter but the image that
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we have of him is some guy with a small
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business you know that he's like making
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tables and chairs and people coming and
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buying that's not what a tecton was a
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tecton was a day laborer a tect on was
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the kind of guy who hangs out uh in
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front of Home Depot waiting for a truck
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to come by to get a job he would go from
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City to City looking for work so you're
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talking about the poorest of the poor
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illiterate
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uneducated and yet despite all that was
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able to start this movement on behalf of
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the poor the weak the marginalize the
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dispossessed that ultimately led to this
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confrontation with Rome so I guess what
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I'm saying is that the the leadership
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principles there are so fascinating to
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me because the gospels over and over
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again say that the people that Jesus
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spoke to were amazed not So Much by his
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teachings but by the authority with
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which he spoke it was his personal
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Charisma that brought people to him he
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wasn't a scribe he wasn't a Pharisee he
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wasn't a priest he was not learned he
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did not talk uh about the scriptures
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from a position of an E from an expert
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he was not an expert in the scriptures
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instead what he did was talk about the
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needs of the individuals that he was
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speaking to and he would address those
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needs through his Charisma a and that's
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where his power came from so in a in an
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American political context he might have
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been a populist uh politician someone
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who came from the working class and who
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spoke to the working class and uh was
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you know very charismatic and able to to
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develop a big precisely indeed if you
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were to distill Jesus's social teachings
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it was about the reversal of the social
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order the first shall be last and the
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last shall be first the rich shall be
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made poor the poor shall be made Rich
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this was about as populist as it gets I
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mean nowadays we would call him a
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socialist and you know we would we would
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denigrate him to the margins of society
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well it turns out that that's how they
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thought about him back then too okay uh
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what about his skill another leadership
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skill as a communicator uh What uh what
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evidence do you have to suggest that he
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either was uh on the A+ wrong or the C
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Rong of Communicator well as most people
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know Jesus's primary form of
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communication was through Parables some
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of these Parables of course for us are
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somewhat incomprehensible you know that
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the kingdom of God is like a mustard
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seed uh the kingdom of God is like a
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Wedding Banquet the kingdom of God of
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course being the primary uh message that
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he had in mind that when he talks about
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the kingdom of God he's talking
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precisely about this reversal of the
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social order that I was referring to now
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obviously this is a message that is
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profoundly appealing if you're at the
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lowest rungs of the social ladder and
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it's profoundly threatening if you're at
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the highest rungs of the social ladder
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so Jesus by speaking in these Parables
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has figured out a way to communicate the
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truth of this Kingdom to his audience
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who would understand precisely what he
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is is talking about but at the same time
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to keep it as much as secret as possible
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from the those that would feel
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threatened by it indeed he says about
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his Parables that the secrets of the
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kingdom of God are spoken of in Parables
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so that those who have ears to hear can
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hear them those who can understand them
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can understand them and to everyone else
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it's maintained a secret and I think
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that's a very interesting and unique way
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of communicating your thoughts in a way
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that only your intended audience can
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understand well one of one we in in our
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teaching uh here about persuasion and so
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on uh probably the most profound skill
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is coming up with the right metaphor uh
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and the metaphor always has to connect
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to the specific audience so I think what
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you're saying was he knew his audience
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and he had metaphors they could relate
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to exactly and it's interesting because
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if you took let's say you know some
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herodian Elite uh and some uh farmer and
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said to both of them the kingdom of God
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is like a mustard seed the farmer
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understands what that means this tiny
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insignificant seed that then becomes the
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biggest of bushes the herodian elite
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would have no idea what you're referring
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to what's a mustard seed some small
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thing on a dining room table Yeah so
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that oh so then you mean it's irrelevant
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is what you mean interesting uh there
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was your a lot of your book is taken up
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with the succession problem that follow
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Jesus's death and uh that's a huge issue
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in business when a Founder uh gives the
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Reigns or dies or moves on uh there's
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usually rivalries in who's going to run
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the company or how how how what
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direction it'll take I was wondering if
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you could uh tell us a little bit about
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whether uh Jesus's succession planning
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worked out the way he planned well so
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what we do know is that the the person
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who ended up leading the community that
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Jesus left behind after his death was
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his brother James James was a very
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significant man in in the first century
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um he was called the bishop of Bishops
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and he he led what was known as the
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Jerusalem assembly or church they didn't
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have the word church back then but the
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the the Jerusalem Church which was then
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in charge of all the other churches that
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pop up everywhere James had a very uh
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limited conception of what this movement
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was about Jesus was a Jew James was a
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Jew this was a Jewish movement it was
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for Jews uh certainly non-jews could
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join this movement if they'd like but
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first they had to become Jews they had
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to follow all the Jewish dietary
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restrictions the Jewish laws after a few
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years James decided to forego the
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circumcision uh requirement which was
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marketing wise probably a good idea but
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nevertheless as far as he was concerned
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this was a Jewish movement for Jews and
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that you had to become a Jew to join it
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the sort of rival to James was Paul Paul
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this former Pharisee who never knew J
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Jesus while he was alive but who has
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this ecstatic experience uh of the Risen
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Jesus and decides that he's going to
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actually transform this movement for
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non-jews he's going to preach it to
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Gentiles and if he's going to do that
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particularly if he's going to preach it
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to Rome he has to get rid of these
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Jewish requirements so as far as J uh
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Paul is concerned forget about the law
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of Moses forget about circumcision
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forget about the dietary requirements
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forget about the even notion of having
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to become a Jew first that Jesus's
00:15:35
movement transcends Judaism now here's
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the interesting thing during the
00:15:41
lifetime of both men uh Paul dies around
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66 ad James dies at 62 ad during the
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lifetime of these two men James is
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descendant after all you don't argue
00:15:54
with the brother the Flesh and Blood
00:15:57
brother of Jesus he wins any argument
00:15:59
that you have James is going to win but
00:16:02
after the death of both men and
00:16:03
certainly after 70 the destruction of
00:16:06
Jerusalem it's Paul's idea of
00:16:09
Christianity that suddenly becomes
00:16:12
ascendant as Christianity becomes less
00:16:14
and less a Jewish religion and more a a
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Roman religion this notion of a
00:16:22
universalism that a a Christianity
00:16:24
that's divorced from its parent religion
00:16:27
becomes enormously popular and
00:16:29
successful and James's version of
00:16:32
Christianity a Jewish religion for Jews
00:16:35
continues to exist but just begins to
00:16:39
slowly die away so it's an interesting
00:16:42
notion that the successor of Jesus James
00:16:47
who thinks that he is following Jesus's
00:16:51
Vision uh becomes the failed version of
00:16:54
Christianity and the version of
00:16:57
Christianity that divorces itself from
00:17:00
Jesus's teachings and creates something
00:17:03
new appealing open to everyone becomes
00:17:06
the largest religion in the world so um
00:17:09
I find it ironic if Jesus was a sort of
00:17:12
failed revolutionary that his kingdom
00:17:16
actually ended up overtaking Rome right
00:17:19
uh and one wonders depending on what you
00:17:21
how you characterize Jesus whether he
00:17:23
might not have had uh a bit of an
00:17:26
insight into how this would all work out
00:17:29
I think that that's certainly what
00:17:31
Christians would say is that the failure
00:17:34
of the Cross was actually a victory and
00:17:38
but again you're going to have to thank
00:17:41
Paul for that and not so much Jesus well
00:17:44
Jesus appeared to Paul you're right
00:17:46
right the Risen Jesus appeared to Paul
00:17:48
and Paul says that he's getting all this
00:17:49
information from the Risen Jesus so that
00:17:53
that's a good point I mean that's where
00:17:54
I guess A Book Like Yours uh goes
00:17:57
straight to the border of faith and then
00:17:58
it becomes you know pretty hard to you
00:18:01
know have a discussion around facts
00:18:03
here's the dividing line and I and I'm
00:18:05
glad that you brought this up is it
00:18:08
possible that Jesus had this conception
00:18:12
of himself utterly unique than what any
00:18:14
other Jew understood when it came to the
00:18:16
the role of the Messiah is it possible
00:18:18
that he thought to himself that this
00:18:20
Celestial Kingdom will overcome the
00:18:23
Roman Empire and that no action on Earth
00:18:26
would do that yes it's possible is it
00:18:29
likely no it's not likely and that's the
00:18:33
dividing line between the historian and
00:18:34
the person of Faith the person of faith
00:18:36
is interested in what is possible the
00:18:39
historian is interested in what is
00:18:41
likely I guess the uh the the fact that
00:18:44
this Faith uh worked out so well uh in
00:18:47
terms of an institution uh suggests that
00:18:50
that wasn't likely either so I think
00:18:51
that's a good point so two two quick
00:18:54
points to to wrap it up for us um first
00:18:57
of all you've been on this book tour
00:18:59
you've written a controversial book uh
00:19:01
that sort of looks at at something
00:19:03
that's very hard to see the historical
00:19:05
Jesus uh what are some of the surprises
00:19:07
that you've met on the road as you've
00:19:09
exposed this message to different
00:19:11
audiences well it's interesting I I you
00:19:13
know I get I've gotten an overwhelmingly
00:19:15
positive response particularly from
00:19:17
Christians I think a lot of Christians
00:19:19
uh who email me I get dozens of these
00:19:21
emails a a week uh telling me that
00:19:25
although they actually believe that this
00:19:26
person that I'm describing is also God
00:19:29
they so rarely get an opportunity to if
00:19:32
you will suspend that this that belief
00:19:35
and instead look at Jesus as just a man
00:19:39
it's very hard to do that you know if
00:19:41
you think that Jesus is fully God and
00:19:42
fully man no matter how hard you try the
00:19:46
man part gets subsumed by the god part
00:19:49
um and this is an opportunity for them
00:19:51
to have that experience at the same time
00:19:53
I get just as many emails from atheists
00:19:57
who say that
00:19:59
finally this is the Jesus that they've
00:20:01
been looking for that the other Jesus
00:20:03
The Godly Jesus they know is just a
00:20:05
bunch of bunk but in reality this is the
00:20:07
Jesus that they want so for me as a
00:20:09
writer and as a thinker it's been
00:20:11
incredibly satisfying to see Christians
00:20:14
and atheists come to this book and both
00:20:17
enjoy it for their own sort of
00:20:19
preconceived reasons right you've had
00:20:22
this issue that arose as well having to
00:20:24
do with um your own uh background and
00:20:27
your own family uh tell us a little bit
00:20:29
about how that uh has worked out well so
00:20:32
you know I've I've as I've me mentioned
00:20:34
before I'm a Muslim that I I uh that my
00:20:37
faith background is Islam uh that my
00:20:40
scholarship of course is something
00:20:41
entirely different and you know it might
00:20:44
be difficult for a lot of people to
00:20:45
understand that religion is an academic
00:20:47
discipline that we are all you know
00:20:49
coming at it from as much as an academic
00:20:52
and objective and scarly Route as we
00:20:54
possibly can despite the fact that many
00:20:56
of us have our own background so you
00:20:58
know Jews write about Buddhism and and
00:21:00
Christians write about Islam and
00:21:02
sometimes Muslims write about uh
00:21:04
Christianity uh in my world that's
00:21:06
totally normal but in the popular world
00:21:10
and particularly amongst certain media
00:21:12
Outlets that shall remain unnamed uh
00:21:15
that's crazy that you can't possibly not
00:21:18
have some secret agenda if you're
00:21:21
writing about uh a religion not you know
00:21:24
from that religious uh religion's
00:21:26
perspective but you know to be honest
00:21:29
that's as much our fault as it is the
00:21:32
media's Fault the truth of the matter is
00:21:35
and I can say this for Scholars of
00:21:37
almost every discipline including
00:21:38
business uh we don't do a very good job
00:21:42
sometimes of communicating to a popular
00:21:45
audience we spend so much time locked in
00:21:48
these Ivory Towers talking to each other
00:21:51
in our own specialized language that
00:21:54
nobody else can understand we talk about
00:21:56
these complex theories and ideas as
00:21:59
though they don't they don't have a real
00:22:01
world uh uh uh you know uh impact and we
00:22:05
don't spend enough time I think
00:22:06
communicating to the popular media to
00:22:09
the popular world and by the way when we
00:22:11
do we're often criticized by our own
00:22:14
colleagues for doing so so it's a
00:22:16
two-way street I mean it's on the one
00:22:18
hand there's a misperception of what
00:22:20
Scholars do in the media but we bear
00:22:23
some of that burden ourselves yeah well
00:22:25
Jesus encountered his culture and was
00:22:26
misunderstood and you've encountered
00:22:28
yours uh I'll take that so last last
00:22:32
question uh and this is just a a quirky
00:22:35
one but I know a lot of our listeners
00:22:37
have read Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code
00:22:40
right and the premise of that novel and
00:22:42
some sequels is that Jesus had a family
00:22:44
a wife uh children that there's this
00:22:46
bloodline of Jesus that's uh persisted
00:22:49
through the Middle Ages to the present
00:22:50
well you've investigated the life of
00:22:52
Jesus more than anyone I know so what do
00:22:55
you think well this is actually a very
00:22:59
complex question it's sort of one of the
00:23:01
biggest paradoxes about Jesus studies on
00:23:04
the one hand it would have been
00:23:08
inconceivable for a 30-year-old Jewish
00:23:11
male in the first century not to have a
00:23:14
wife and children he may as well be from
00:23:16
Mars I mean it would have been
00:23:18
absolutely inconceivable that's not to
00:23:20
say that there weren't celibates in
00:23:21
Jesus's time there were but they were
00:23:24
monastic orders they separated
00:23:26
themselves from society not just from
00:23:28
wives and children and Jesus obviously
00:23:31
did not do that um so that's that's the
00:23:35
that's the first fact it would have been
00:23:37
downright
00:23:39
inconceivable here's the other fact in
00:23:42
every piece of writing ever written
00:23:46
about Jesus by his friends and his
00:23:48
enemies by his detractors and his
00:23:51
worshippers everything written by
00:23:53
Christians by Jews by pagans by
00:23:55
apologists everything ever written about
00:23:58
about Jesus there is never a mention of
00:24:01
wife and kids and that is difficult to
00:24:07
overcome uh now is it possible that
00:24:10
we'll come up with something one day
00:24:12
that a piece of Papyrus will suddenly
00:24:13
show up as as perhaps my colleague Karen
00:24:16
King may have found which we're still
00:24:18
waiting to find out whether that's
00:24:20
authentic or not and there's some
00:24:21
question about whether it is or not will
00:24:24
some gospel all of a sudden show up uh
00:24:26
one day that that shows that Jesus was
00:24:28
married maybe but those are the
00:24:31
irreconcilable facts it would have been
00:24:34
impossible to think of him as not
00:24:36
married and yet no evidence no evidence
00:24:40
all right great uh Raza aen author of
00:24:43
zealot The Life and Times of Jesus of
00:24:45
Nazareth thank you very much thank you
00:24:47
for having me
00:24:58
all
