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Welcome, welcome to Wharton Moneyball.
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Welcome to a full hour of sports
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analytics here on the Wharton podcast
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network. This is Kade Massie hosting
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this week with the whole crew. The crew
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I've been in here with for more than 12
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years now. Shane Jensen is here on
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campus just out the classroom. Audi
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Winer is here. I think that's his own
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library at home if I'm not mistaken. And
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Eric Bradlo's here in his office,
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longtime Huntsman Hall office, eighth,
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no, not 84, seventh floor. We are
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recording on Tuesday afternoon as we
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usually do. The show will go up on
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Wednesday. We're going to follow our
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usual format. We'll have a guest here in
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the first half hour before opening up in
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the second half hour to hear what has
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caught people's eye. We're delighted to
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welcome on to the show for the first
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time, Sam Ful. Sam is currently vice
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president and general manager with the
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Philadelphia Phillies. He is moving into
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the position of president of business
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operations for the Phillies. And he
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tells us he's transitioned most of his
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baseball ops responsibilities away. And
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he's kind of squarely in there, but he
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hasn't yet graduated from Wharton. And
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it's not going to be official until he
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graduates from Wharton. Sam has been
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doing a thing that we have a couple
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hundred folks do every year, 22 250.
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They maintain full-time work while
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coming back for an executive MBA. And it
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means going to school every other
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weekend for two years while also
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working, maybe having a family,
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traveling for business, all of those
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things. I genuinely do not know how they
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do it. I've had the great privilege and
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pleasure of having Sam in the classroom.
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Great fun to have you on the show, Sam.
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Welcome.
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>> Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be
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on with you guys.
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>> Well, it's a and we know you're at a
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busy stage. school season's off and
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running, transitioning jobs. Appreciate
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you making time for us. Um,
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>> to do it.
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>> What's the What's the vibe with the
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Phillies? Give us a check in with the
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clubhouse and the building. How's it
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feeling? 10 games in, six and four.
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What's the V?
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>> Vibe is good. I mean, um, you know, it
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was a it was a up and down home stand,
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which is crazy to say in a six game um,
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span that you can have so many ups and
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downs, but you couldn't have scripted a
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better opening day. Beautiful day. um a
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lot of lot of new sort of ballpark um
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projects that got finished at the buzzer
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and a lot of our fans got to see some of
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those things with like a renovated team
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store and a really cool upgraded um you
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know hall of fame club level that a lot
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of our fans got to witness um maybe
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didn't know just how down to crunch time
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that that that brought but um you know a
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great great win and it was beautiful and
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then we went into a little bit of a lull
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and then we had this amazing comeback
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walk-off win on our last game in the
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home stand. So, yeah, it's amazing how
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many narratives you can strike in a six
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game set and then, you know, the the
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beginning uh this West Coast road trip's
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been pretty good. So, all is good.
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>> Right on target for 97 wins. That that'd
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be I'd be okay with that number.
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>> I would too, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It
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would it would be more than last year by
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by one. So, you know. Yeah. Progress.
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>> Is it is it Which is a bigger threat
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early on, Sam? Overreacting or being
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complacent since there's so many games
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in a season? Which which way is which
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way is the bigger risk?
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>> Probably run the risk of overreacting.
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It seems like, you know, a six game
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sample or a 10 game sample at the very
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beginning of the year is always like
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magnified, you know, and if you go
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through a six game lull in June or
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August, for some reason, people seem to
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care a little bit less about it. Maybe
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not in Philly, but um generally you run
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the risk of uh maybe overanalyzing a
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little bit. You know, I think about it
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like with with roster construction
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sometimes you put so much emphasis on
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like what's that opening day roster
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going to look like and you forget that
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like two games into the year you're
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probably going to have a transaction to
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make. Um and so yeah, I think whether
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you're a fan, an executive, uh even a
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player, um I think and I' I've lived it
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where I started the year like one for 20
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and you look up in the scoreboard like
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how do I move on? How do I go on with
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life? Um, so yeah, all for all those
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reasons, I think the the beginning of
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the season's a little risky there to
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overest. All right. Tell us, let's let's
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just check in with your career briefly
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just to let the context set and then
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we'll got a question. But just context
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is you you came out of Stanford
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all-American baseball player. You played
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pro in some capacity for 13 years.
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You're in the big leagues for eight of
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those years. Transition into into
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management and and now you've really
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known for someone who blends got the
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player history, have the analytics as
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well, high on performance, and now
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you're adding kind of the business side
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of things. Can you talk about how you've
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made these decisions from a player into
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management? You decided you want to do
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that and now you're broadening your
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portfolio again from going kind of the
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traditional player thing into the
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business side of things.
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>> Yeah. So the player to uh you know
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baseball executive transition I think
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was more conventional, more maybe
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arguably logical. Um like I love
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baseball just you know was a a sports
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lover as a kid and but baseball was
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always sort of special to me and um I
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never knew how far my playing career was
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going to take me but um and there were
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plenty of moments in my playing career
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where it felt like it was the end. Like
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I was a, you know, my first year in the
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minor leagues, I was a 10th round senior
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sign with like no prospect status and I
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was probably hitting 200 in the first
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half and low a ball thinking, well, this
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is this might be it. Um, better start
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thinking about next steps. So, I was
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always sort of thinking about what what
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my post playing career would look like
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once I hung up the spikes or once teams
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told, you know, forced me to
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>> Right. Right. Um, and I thought, you
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know what, the front office side was
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always interesting to me, especially
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like as I got to the big leagues and got
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to play in these really awesome
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organizations like, you know, Tampa Bay
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and Oakland and got got a little bit of
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a look under the hood, um, that that
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life was really compelling to me and I
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felt like um, as long as it made sense
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personally was like my wife and then,
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you know, now four kids, um, as long as
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we as a as a family were were
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comfortable kind of pursuing doing that
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path. I felt like a pretty um logical
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next step. Like I loved I was always a
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math nerd and I love the intersection of
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math and um and baseball. And so what
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better kind of environment to do like
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scratch both of those itches than being
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a an executive. So my my first role
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after playing was a little bit of a
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hybrid role where I was still putting a
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uniform on. I was in the coaches room
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and I served as a bit of a translator
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between our R&D team
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>> and the players and staff down at the
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clubhouse. Um so it was front office
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coaching hybrid and um that was really a
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really great you know entry level role.
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Um, but then as things progressed, it
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felt like both from a professional and
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personal standpoint, like, you know,
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putting khakis on instead of baseball
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pants maybe made more sense.
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>> Even if they're not a big difference.
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Let me stop you there, Sam, and let the
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let the boys jump in with any questions
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around the what you've described so far.
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I know that I've got some, but I want to
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give the guys a chance. Uh, do you want
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to jump in now?
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>> Sure. I'm happy to jump in, although I'm
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responding I guess I'll respond to two
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things. First of all, um, we didn't
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overlap at Stanford. I was there before
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you, but I used to go that was my
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afternoons. I would sit and do math
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problems at the sunken diamond. Um,
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watch Mike Msina say now how old I am.
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Um, that was uh that was great times.
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Not very crowded I will say. Um, but I
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did study statistics there and um and
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the thing that I think is interesting is
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and just as a background you talked
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about the beginning of the season 1 and
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20 mostly one and 20 we recognize it
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within some sort of natural variation.
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How how deep into the season before you
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you start looking at some of the
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players, particularly ones that don't
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have a long track record with the team
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and start thinking, uh, this is not the
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right the right this is not working out
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well. And and I guess when you're
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thinking about that, are you doing some
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of your own stats? Are you are you
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looking your staff to help you with that
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or you're not looking at Oh,
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>> no. Oh, I mean, well, one, I think lucky
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to have like a really great uh and
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robust analytics team that, you know,
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luckily I'm not the one building models
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and I'm leaning on or have been and I'm
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speaking in the present tense, but my
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focus uh is business oriented now, but
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in in my previous role as GM, um, you
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know, there's there's no sort of
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threshold necessarily that we're looking
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at, okay, 30 games in, we can start
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really evaluating guys. you know, you're
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you're balancing the sort of magnitude
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of the performance either upside of the
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performance to the downside and
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sometimes your hand is forced. I mean,
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um, sometimes just, you know, some, you
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know, a player on on a major league
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contract is starts to deer on the I and
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then he gets healthy and then you've got
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to make a tough roster decision and of
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course like performance whether it's two
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weeks in, two days in, two months in, it
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all matters. But um we do like just from
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through a quantitative lens like we are
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updating our our models and our
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forecasting pretty regularly. So they do
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a great job of sort of baking in the
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this sample of recent performance and
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how to compare recent performance with
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say performance a year ago and and it's
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not just obviously one for 20. It's
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these underlying characteristics that we
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know are are a bit more predictive of
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future performance.
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Did did you come have you become a fan
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of any particular underlying metric or
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peripheral as Audi sometimes refers to
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them? What's in your
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>> list? There's a lot of them now. Yeah,
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>> there's a lot of them now. So, do you
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have do you have a favorite?
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>> Um
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>> or do you have a new one that you're
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romancing and you're thinking about got
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a little sparkle in your eye about
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>> Oh boy. Well, I mean, I think it's cool
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that some of the some of the underlying
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uh characteristics that we have sort of
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leaned on have learned to be really
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predictive internally have become more
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public facing. Like you're seeing um you
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know public facing stuff models where
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you you're evaluating assessing the
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quality of a pitcher's repertoire,
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right? Like and it's based off of all
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the different inputs that we can capture
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now. horizontal brake, vertical brake,
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spin rate, release point, uh extension,
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all these inputs that um we yeah throw
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in a blender and we know we can assign a
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score on the traditional typically on
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the traditional kind of 2080 um scatting
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scale.
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>> Um and so I think that's really neat
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like it not that we needed validation
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necessarily, but it's cool to see that
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surface publicly. And I think what's
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cool and I'm just picking out stuff as
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an example, but I think it's like pretty
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intuitive. Like we've we've in terms of
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like lexicon within the baseball
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industry, we've used a word like stuff
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for a long time. Like this venture's got
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great stuff.
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>> That's that that phrase has been said
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for who knows 50, 100 years.
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>> Um but we can now we can now quantify
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what it is to actually have great stuff.
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Um and so there's just endless
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opportunity like related to stuff is I
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think which has not necessarily been
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quantified quite as well as uh this
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notion of deception. So you're sort of
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blending the you know ball flight data
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with what is the pitcher doing in his
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delivery to either add or subtract from
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deception like hindering a's ability to
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recognize a pitch recognize you know
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location. Um, that is a really
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interesting subject that we spent a lot
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of time on internally,
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>> right? Really cool. There's these cool
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Twitter videos these days where these
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they'll show the pitcher, the ball path,
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five different pitches and how close
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they are says something about how
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deceptive, but I'm sure you guys are
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miles beyond that. Shane and then Shane
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and the ner. Well, I guess just a
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clarification when you sort of talk
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about deception, are you talking mostly
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about the kind of mechanical like
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tunneling and stuff like that or are you
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talking also about kind of deception on
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the pitch by like p, you know, p pitch
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sequencing and and and kind of like sort
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of like Yeah, I I guess there's two
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different levels of deception that I
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think pitchers generally employ in a
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game. I don't know which of those you
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you know are are you kind of talking
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about them on it or
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>> I mean I think there's like multiple
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definitions of deception. I think
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there's um there there certainly is like
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sort of a sequencing component um which
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maybe gets talked about less than some
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of the more physical characteristics of
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deception. But even underneath the
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physical umbrella you've got like okay
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does he step across his body and sort of
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shield the line of sight to the baseball
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from a hitter's perspective. Um, is
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there something about his fast ball
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movement quality that just makes it
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really difficult uh to pick up where a
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guy throwing 90 might feel like 105 as a
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hitter? Like it, you know, that could be
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related to his spin rate. It could be
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related to the, you know, his arm slot
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and okay, typically guys with lower arm
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slots, they generate run and sync on
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their fast ball, but this guy has a low
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slot that actually gets carry on his
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fast ball through the zone. So all these
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little things and they start to sort of
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merge and overlap with our definition of
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stuff and that's like the really
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challenging part. It's like where do you
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draw a line between you know pitch
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quality stuff and what the what the
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pitcher is actually doing with his body
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and and now with like all the bio
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biomechanics data that we have at our
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disposal um we can really start to kind
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of wrap our heads around it. But it'll
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you know it'll put you into galaxy brain
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mode really quick.
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>> Eric. Yeah. Yeah. So Sam, I want to uh
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integrate your past job with your
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current job. So you know, since I'm also
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a marketing professor, um I spend a lot
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of time thinking about how to use data
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science for the business side of things.
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Like how do we max since you're now
00:14:00
going on the business ops business side,
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how do you optimally send email
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campaigns and discounts and all kinds of
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vouchers and opportunities. So I hope I
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hope or it's a question but I hope
00:14:13
you're planning on using what you've
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learned on the onfield moneyball side
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but now there's moneyball for business.
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How are you thinking about that
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integration
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>> in a lot of different ways? Um I I could
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probably go on and on. I mean we lucky
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fortunate that we have an existing
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business analytics uh team that is are
00:14:32
trying to solve for the very same
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problems that you just um outlined. So
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it there is endless kind of opportunity
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to better quantify and better sort of
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predict um what interventions on the
00:14:44
business side can make most sense and
00:14:46
it's like I I mean it can be demand
00:14:48
forecasting like what would happen if we
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you know juice our ticket prices by 5%
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next year 10% or 15% like the you know
00:14:55
those sorts of questions it's okay what
00:14:58
if we move chicks and pets from section
00:15:01
122 section 105 I mean
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>> and you can AB test these things and
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like really you can do a lot of cool
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things. I mean it's there really is kind
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of a
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>> by the way all of us professors here are
00:15:14
happy to say you've already said the
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magic word which is going to do
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experiments.
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My old colleagues have told me about
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experiments only want to know the
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answer.
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>> Yeah that stuff all the time which is
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really neat. I mean, it's Yeah, I not to
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hang on to like the concessions uh
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discussion, but we've got these like
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grab and go areas around the ballpark
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and how do how do those sales compare
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to, you know, traditional point of sale?
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Um, we're testing that sort of stuff all
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all the time.
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>> Uh, Audi, I think, has a question. Yeah,
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I do actually want to ask you uh
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continue a conversation that we've been
00:15:53
having with a lot of our baseball guests
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going back to Jane Levy who wrote this
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book on make me commission and I'll fix
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the game or something of that nature and
00:16:00
then we talked with Theo about this and
00:16:02
this relates to sort of the business
00:16:03
side. How do you how are you thinking
00:16:05
about the next generation of fans? I
00:16:08
mean Eric and I in particular, we
00:16:09
became, you know, obsessed with baseball
00:16:11
as children because of little things in
00:16:13
some level. I mean I remember going onto
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the field as an eight-year-old and
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getting signed autographs. um being able
00:16:19
to um watch the the games really early
00:16:22
and I've noticed things have really
00:16:24
changed as be as the bottom line has
00:16:26
become more in principle focus for many
00:16:29
teams like one of the things we talked
00:16:30
about was opening up the stadium early
00:16:33
to watch batting practice and Theo
00:16:35
reminded us well many of the players
00:16:37
don't want to take batting practice on
00:16:38
the field they want to do it at the
00:16:40
check machines down under underneath and
00:16:42
the teams don't want to pay to have the
00:16:44
the stadium open more than an hour or
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whatever an hour and a half before the
00:16:48
game, but I kept thinking, well, that's
00:16:50
that might be nice for the players
00:16:52
locally and nice for the team locally,
00:16:55
but in the long run, it's terrible
00:16:57
because you aren't you aren't creating
00:16:59
the future of fans in your So, in your
00:17:01
role, what do how do you think about
00:17:02
balancing those two?
00:17:04
>> Yeah, it's a great question. Um, and
00:17:07
definitely think about those short-term
00:17:08
and long-term trade-offs on the baseball
00:17:10
side all the time, like especially in
00:17:12
player development. Okay, if it's one
00:17:14
thing to optimize for some minor league
00:17:17
pitchers success today, but you have to
00:17:20
keep like the the long-term forecast in
00:17:22
mind. And in that context, it's like
00:17:24
very much long-term oriented. But same
00:17:26
thing on the on the fan side where, you
00:17:29
know, I think
00:17:30
>> one of the things we talk about a lot is
00:17:32
like we could there's a very like
00:17:34
reasonable case to be made that we could
00:17:36
be even more aggressive with um our
00:17:38
ticket pricing strategy. But so if the
00:17:41
the only goal was to maximize revenue,
00:17:44
ticket revenue in 2026, we would
00:17:47
probably we would price differently.
00:17:49
>> But we know that there are families that
00:17:53
need to continue to have access and we
00:17:55
need to develop um strong relationships
00:17:58
with with all of our fans and certainly
00:18:00
that that youth demographic that now has
00:18:02
a wider assortment of um sort of leisure
00:18:05
and entertainment um options at their
00:18:08
disposal. like it it's really important
00:18:09
to like maintain access um to families
00:18:13
of four, families of six, schools, like
00:18:16
you know field trips. So we may not
00:18:19
we're you know in certain parts of the
00:18:20
ballpark for sure we are being more
00:18:23
modest with our ticket pricing strategy
00:18:25
with a longer term perspective in mind.
00:18:28
Same thing goes with like media access.
00:18:30
We know that, you know, the younger
00:18:33
demographic is consuming sports and
00:18:35
baseball in a way different way than um,
00:18:37
you know, other generations and so we
00:18:39
have to respond to that and kind of be
00:18:41
willing and able to play on their turf
00:18:43
to the extent that we can.
00:18:45
>> Sam related, there's a lot of talk
00:18:48
around the Phillies about Philadelphia
00:18:50
and the community. I'm curious for your
00:18:53
perspective going all the way down to
00:18:55
the players and do the players feel that
00:18:57
something's different in Philadelphia
00:18:58
and I know sometimes it pops up in other
00:19:00
locations. You know, Philly is not the
00:19:01
only place where it where it has
00:19:03
sometimes felt like that. But do players
00:19:04
really feel that way about Philadelphia?
00:19:06
And if so, why? Like how does that show
00:19:07
up? What does make it different? If it
00:19:10
is,
00:19:11
>> I think it is. I mean, I when I first
00:19:12
came here, we were this is 2018, my
00:19:14
first year here, and everybody talked
00:19:16
about like, oh, just wait till we get to
00:19:18
the playoffs. It's different. It's
00:19:19
different. And um you know I had played
00:19:21
in a decent number of playoff games as a
00:19:23
player like played at Fenway, played uh
00:19:26
played at Texas, played play played a
00:19:28
wild card game in Kansas City. It was
00:19:29
insane. Like played in unbelievable
00:19:32
environments and I'm thinking to myself
00:19:33
then in 2018 like how different can this
00:19:36
really be? And then you know four years
00:19:39
later finally we got we got to the
00:19:41
playoffs and I kind of lived it and felt
00:19:44
it. literally felt stadium shaking and
00:19:48
um it really didn't sink in until like
00:19:51
game one of uh the wild card when we in
00:19:56
2022 um that I was like this is just
00:19:59
different um and this is like uh sorry
00:20:02
it wasn't wild card it was the DS we
00:20:04
were we were in St. those day or for the
00:20:05
wild card. But, uh, I really do think
00:20:09
it is like the level of intensity and
00:20:10
passion that you feel for the for the
00:20:12
fans. Um, that's not the only thing. And
00:20:14
I think that's number one for me. Like
00:20:17
the just fans are going to tell you how
00:20:20
how it is, but when things are going
00:20:22
well, there's no better place to be. And
00:20:24
the energy that like lifts up players, I
00:20:27
think, is it's palpable. It really is.
00:20:29
Like guys talk about it and not because
00:20:30
they're like pandering to the fan base.
00:20:32
It's real. like the the energy those
00:20:34
that you get from and it's not just in
00:20:36
the playoffs. It's like
00:20:38
>> we felt it opening day, we felt it
00:20:40
throughout the first home stands. It's
00:20:41
like
00:20:42
>> the noise and like the level of sort of
00:20:44
understanding of the game. I think
00:20:45
players feel that. Uh and then the
00:20:47
second thing I think is just like the
00:20:49
way that we've treated our players
00:20:50
organizationally like John Melton is,
00:20:53
you know, I think the best owner in the
00:20:54
game and he's and he's very he's he's
00:20:57
generous in so many ways, but he's very
00:20:58
like attuned to like kind of what
00:21:01
matters. So little things like building
00:21:02
a really awesome family room at the
00:21:05
ballpark so that you know players and
00:21:08
coaches uh families feel comfortable and
00:21:11
feel like they're being cared for and
00:21:12
that they're um they're a big part of
00:21:14
the equation. um you know things being
00:21:17
accessible players like things that John
00:21:20
does sort of instinctively I think
00:21:22
really does make a difference and I
00:21:23
think it's helped us land free agents
00:21:26
and I think it's helped us you know
00:21:27
we've had some recent extensions with
00:21:29
Lazardo and Sanchez and you know even
00:21:32
guys like Matt Stramo basically have
00:21:34
been like I you know I want to be here
00:21:36
let's find a way to like stay here
00:21:37
longer than than I can um you hear that
00:21:40
a lot and I don't think that exists in
00:21:42
in every major league organization
00:21:45
>> Sam can you say just a touch more about
00:21:46
Middleton. So, he's a he's a managing
00:21:49
owner, majority owner of the club. Uh
00:21:51
stepped in, I don't know, seven, eight
00:21:53
years ago now, maybe a little bit
00:21:55
longer. Um I've only barely been around
00:21:57
it, but I was instantly super impressed.
00:21:59
And something we say on the show and
00:22:01
have from the beginning is how
00:22:02
profoundly and sometimes surprisingly
00:22:05
important ownership is. Like fans may
00:22:07
not appreciate how much that influence
00:22:09
works its way all the way down to the
00:22:11
field really, but we don't see the ins
00:22:14
and outs of it. So, and and at the risk
00:22:17
of your pander, we don't want you to
00:22:18
pander, but like tell us something about
00:22:19
why when you say you think Middleton's
00:22:21
the best owner in baseball, tell us
00:22:22
something about why that is. What is he
00:22:24
in what way is he different?
00:22:26
>> Well, I think there's a level of
00:22:27
competitiveness that I mean, he I know
00:22:30
every owner in pro sports wants to win
00:22:31
championships, but John's like desire to
00:22:34
win a championship is, I think, at
00:22:36
another level. Um, and you know, it
00:22:38
shows up in different ways. I got, you
00:22:40
know, obviously we have a a big payroll
00:22:41
and we he's committed to um being
00:22:44
generous across the board, but
00:22:46
particularly with respect to uh our
00:22:48
ability to go land the next best player
00:22:50
on the free agent market or lock up a
00:22:51
player early on in his career that may
00:22:53
have a little bit of, you know, risk and
00:22:55
uncertainty attached to the player. Um
00:22:58
you know that it that that much like the
00:23:00
world knows. Um but I mean he was like
00:23:04
he's but he sets the bar like the level
00:23:06
of accountability really high. I mean,
00:23:07
he was like a super competitive high
00:23:09
school wrestler, college wrestler. Um,
00:23:12
and it feels like that competitive those
00:23:15
competitive juices from the wrestling
00:23:17
mat are like just transfer right over to
00:23:20
the office. And it's great. like it's
00:23:22
like what else could you ask for as an
00:23:23
owner uh to have somebody who really
00:23:26
cares and kind of pours his heart and
00:23:28
soul into this um industry and he's here
00:23:32
a lot and that's and it's like he's he's
00:23:34
hands-on and it's cares like it's you
00:23:37
know there's a there's a high level of
00:23:40
accountability that he holds and like
00:23:42
what else could you ask for as an
00:23:43
employee in an organization?
00:23:45
>> It's great. Eric,
00:23:46
>> I was just wondering you mentioned kind
00:23:48
of um long-term contracts and stuff. How
00:23:51
do you think about, you know, Audi and I
00:23:52
have always had this discussion. How do
00:23:54
you think about like age curves in
00:23:55
sports? Like let's imagine just
00:23:57
hypothetically you could sign a
00:23:59
31-year-old who's still in the prime of
00:24:01
their career, may have who knows, maybe
00:24:03
six, seven good years left, but to get
00:24:05
it done, you're going to have to that
00:24:07
person to a 10-year contract. How do you
00:24:10
guys think about that? And um do you
00:24:13
guys have an actual formal way to study
00:24:15
it? How you guys think about aging
00:24:16
curves?
00:24:18
>> We do. Yeah. Um yeah, I think you know
00:24:20
we I think every team does at this point
00:24:23
you know I think um
00:24:25
may maybe the variance in how teams
00:24:27
approach like are there certain position
00:24:30
profiles that have different agent
00:24:31
curves? Are there different physical
00:24:33
characteristics? Like you can slice and
00:24:34
dice it a little bit more meaningfully
00:24:36
now. Um, but yeah, I think generally
00:24:39
like you know that you may have to um
00:24:43
you may sign a contract that's a little
00:24:45
bit uncomfortable like you kind of have
00:24:47
I think Andrew Friedman said it like if
00:24:48
you're rational in free agent decision-m
00:24:50
all the time you're going to finish
00:24:52
third every time.
00:24:55
Um but with that you know you know bar
00:25:01
you have major league players who
00:25:03
somehow seem to get better in their late
00:25:05
30s. you know that as they get to that
00:25:07
uh po part part of their sort of career
00:25:10
path that you're probably going to see a
00:25:12
decline in performance and maybe that
00:25:14
contract isn't going to be um you know
00:25:17
sort of above above par um but but you
00:25:20
know you're going to likely get surplus
00:25:23
value at the beginning stages of that
00:25:24
contract and you're willing to make that
00:25:25
tradeoff.
00:25:26
>> How great are you feeling about that
00:25:27
Bryce Harper contract right now? I
00:25:29
forget what it's like 13 325 or
00:25:32
something. I mean whatever it is what a
00:25:34
bargain. Oh my god.
00:25:36
>> Yeah. No, I mean he's he's special.
00:25:38
We've seen it. We see it every every day
00:25:40
really. Um but yeah, and you never know
00:25:42
how the market is going to shift over
00:25:44
time. That's a tough thing to nail down.
00:25:46
Um you know, it's the it's the biggest
00:25:48
contract that free agent contract that
00:25:50
was ever signed at the at the time and
00:25:52
now it's I don't even know where it
00:25:53
falls in terms of uh total value, but
00:25:56
it's it's nowhere near the top. But
00:25:59
yeah, uh he's he's fantastic and and um
00:26:03
it's pretty cool to see what he's done
00:26:05
at first base taking on this new
00:26:06
position and just like he is one heck of
00:26:09
an athlete and I think he uh I knew I
00:26:11
had a feeling it was kind like that that
00:26:13
the transition would be like pretty
00:26:15
seamless for him. He used to mess around
00:26:16
and like take rounders at third base uh
00:26:19
just for fun and and if you didn't know
00:26:21
what the name on the back of his jersey
00:26:23
was like like oh that's um a future gold
00:26:26
glover over there like it's just got
00:26:28
instincts and athleticism in spades.
00:26:33
>> Sam, can you talk a little bit about
00:26:35
what you think it what you think the
00:26:36
best combination of qualities are for a
00:26:39
executive in baseball today? I mean, for
00:26:42
generations they were baseball guys and
00:26:45
then they've become kind of quants and
00:26:47
to more to a greater extent than any
00:26:49
other sport. There are quants running
00:26:51
baseball clubs around MLB. You're a mix
00:26:55
of these things and probably
00:26:57
increasingly there are people like you.
00:27:00
Can you is there is there someone around
00:27:01
the league maybe not with the Phillies
00:27:03
that you could say I think this person's
00:27:04
really good. This is what I admire about
00:27:06
them. or is there some What do you think
00:27:08
it takes to be as good as as it as there
00:27:10
is in running baseball teams right now?
00:27:14
>> Yeah. Um I don't you know I don't know
00:27:17
if there's like one quality necessarily,
00:27:19
but I I'll give you two examples. Like I
00:27:22
nobody wants to necessarily hear more
00:27:23
about the Dodgers, but like I do, you
00:27:25
know, I referenced Andrew Freriedman. Um
00:27:27
Brandon Gomes, who works under him as
00:27:29
the GM, their number two former teammate
00:27:31
of mine in Tampa. You know, Brandon's a
00:27:34
good example of a guy who played and
00:27:35
understands what it's like to, you know,
00:27:36
get get his uh spikes dirty, but um
00:27:40
super sharp, super smart, obviously
00:27:42
working under, you know, one of, if not
00:27:44
the the best. Um and so I think that
00:27:48
they have like high level of um just
00:27:52
baseline intellect, but they've got like
00:27:55
crazy good EQ as well. And Brandon has
00:27:57
the advantage of having played and being
00:27:59
able to empathize with with what these
00:28:00
guys are going through every day. So, if
00:28:02
you can kind of blend those two things
00:28:05
um and really like yeah make decisions
00:28:08
really well um and generally like
00:28:10
evidence-based decisions and know how
00:28:12
how to how to do so but also like be
00:28:14
able to relate to players like I think
00:28:16
that's the ne that's why you're seeing I
00:28:17
think maybe more former players step
00:28:19
into these executive roles like you have
00:28:22
a ton of data um ton of resources that
00:28:25
not just through a player acquisition
00:28:27
lens like trades free agents etc but
00:28:29
through a player development lens now in
00:28:31
the last like get really advanced in
00:28:34
getting players better using data and
00:28:36
technology. But it kind of helps like
00:28:38
sometime with new stuff it helps to have
00:28:42
the sort of immediate credibility um
00:28:45
>> and that be able to relate to players um
00:28:48
in a meaningful way that that you know
00:28:50
frankly like somebody who has never
00:28:51
played the game they may be equally
00:28:53
adept at explaining it but that
00:28:55
credibility is real. It just is.
00:28:58
So, you know, so that's one example. And
00:29:00
then like there's plenty of other GMs
00:29:02
and presidents that maybe didn't play at
00:29:04
the highest level, but they're so gifted
00:29:06
and relationship building and they they
00:29:09
they empathize with the challenges of
00:29:12
playing this the game on a daily basis
00:29:14
that they're able to sort of match like
00:29:16
get like whatever clear that hurdle
00:29:19
pretty quickly because of how cool they
00:29:21
are and how easy they get.
00:29:24
>> That's great. All right. Uh, Eric I
00:29:26
think was first in the naughty.
00:29:27
>> Yeah, just quickly Sam you mentioned the
00:29:29
Dodgers. So you could imagine baseball,
00:29:31
correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you think
00:29:33
about it differently. Is not one of
00:29:34
those sports you can say we've got to
00:29:36
just build a team to beat the Dodgers
00:29:39
because it's not like basketball where
00:29:41
you say, you know, we got to build a
00:29:42
team that's going to beat, I don't know,
00:29:44
the Spurs or the Thunder, right? Thunder
00:29:46
are the champs right now. The Dodgers
00:29:48
are the two-time champs. You could I
00:29:49
mean is do you think about it that way
00:29:52
or you just have to get better because
00:29:54
there's so much you know I'll use the
00:29:55
Shane Jensen coin flipping model.
00:29:57
There's so much randomness in baseball.
00:29:59
You could build a team to to quote
00:30:01
unquote go after the Dodgers weaknesses
00:30:03
but you may never get to the NL NL
00:30:06
Championship game. You may not win
00:30:08
enough games in the regular season to
00:30:09
even qualify. How do you think about
00:30:10
that?
00:30:11
>> Yeah, I mean I think generally just you
00:30:13
you really want to just feel the best
00:30:14
possible team. whatever your definition
00:30:16
of best is like that's what you want to
00:30:18
index on and this sort of matchup based
00:30:21
decision- making I think you can make
00:30:23
like maybe small marginal decisions so
00:30:27
you're at the deadline and maybe you're
00:30:30
weak in left-handed bullpen arms and you
00:30:33
know you've got a potentially Otani and
00:30:35
Freddy Freeman waiting in the wings in
00:30:37
the playoffs and maybe you do get a
00:30:39
little bit more aggressive with a
00:30:40
left-hander just as an example um and
00:30:43
maybe and maybe further down the road,
00:30:45
you're making playoff roster decisions.
00:30:47
You're like, "It's a toss up between a
00:30:49
lefty and a righty, but we know we're
00:30:50
playing the Dodgers in round one, and we
00:30:52
know we've got to like somehow combat
00:30:54
those lefties in the lineup." Things
00:30:56
like that you can make sort of on the
00:30:58
margins, but generally I think even
00:31:02
within like your roster construction, I
00:31:04
don't I know a lot of people talk about
00:31:06
having sort of balance within a lineup,
00:31:09
speed, power. I think like generally you
00:31:12
just want the best players. uh and
00:31:15
there's not necessarily like um sort of
00:31:18
like add added value if you've got like
00:31:20
this combination um
00:31:22
>> interesting
00:31:23
>> of skills talent like I think some I I
00:31:25
get the I get that argument but I think
00:31:27
it maybe gets a little overblown
00:31:29
sometimes
00:31:31
>> well listen I can ask you a ton of
00:31:33
questions Sam so I'm always trying to
00:31:34
figure out a question you're going to
00:31:35
answer um which is always a tricky one
00:31:38
um so I'll start with this I've actually
00:31:39
been doing some research with some
00:31:40
students uh comparing the value of the
00:31:43
draft picks across different sports and
00:31:46
baseball consistently falls as the least
00:31:49
valuable. In other words, you know, the
00:31:52
draft doesn't produce that much value at
00:31:53
the top compared to say NBA, NFL,
00:31:56
hockey, actually surprised to me. I
00:31:58
didn't know much about that, but you
00:31:59
know, the the all-star performances of
00:32:01
the top of the drafts are almost
00:32:03
guaranteed, you know, in those sports,
00:32:05
but not so much in baseball. Um, and
00:32:07
that I always thought had to do with the
00:32:08
fact that they were drafted so young and
00:32:10
so you never knew at these years before
00:32:12
they were in the pros and you never
00:32:14
knew, but that's changing to a certain
00:32:17
degree, particularly with NIL, um, which
00:32:19
is mostly concentrated in football and
00:32:22
basketball and I think baseball too. Um,
00:32:24
so what does that mean for
00:32:25
professionals? Are you going to be
00:32:26
looking more towards the draft? You be
00:32:28
looking at college players who are
00:32:29
already 22, played four years at a high
00:32:32
quality program. you think the draft is
00:32:34
going to be more important to baseball
00:32:36
going forward or or what's your thoughts
00:32:37
on that?
00:32:38
>> Yeah, it's a good in good question, good
00:32:40
insight. I think probably short answer
00:32:43
is yes. If we do continue continue to
00:32:45
see this trend of more high school
00:32:47
players sort of bypassing the draft and
00:32:50
going to college, um we know that like
00:32:53
you know whether you're you're making
00:32:55
your amateur draft decisions purely
00:32:58
model based or it's some blend of models
00:33:00
and scouts or it's like a little bit of
00:33:02
modeling as a foundation and then a lot
00:33:03
of scout influence. We just know
00:33:06
regardless of like kind of how you
00:33:07
distribute across those two, we know
00:33:10
that like data from playing at a higher
00:33:13
level than high school is meaningful no
00:33:15
matter what you do with that data. So,
00:33:18
um I mean the draft is like
00:33:22
always been important. I guess you could
00:33:24
say that it's going to become a little
00:33:25
bit more important, but the resources
00:33:27
that we deploy for the that you know
00:33:31
two, three, four day period uh every
00:33:33
year is is massive. I mean, we got, you
00:33:35
know, 20 plus amateur scouts that are
00:33:37
going all over the country and watching
00:33:39
players all the time. Um, and an
00:33:41
increasing focus from a R&D standpoint
00:33:44
and how we how we model future
00:33:46
performance even for 17 18 year olds
00:33:48
that, you know, they're getting we're
00:33:50
getting more and more data on them like
00:33:51
the the perfect game showcases the
00:33:53
world,
00:33:54
>> you get data on them. Um, so that's all
00:33:57
helpful and you know all the intangible
00:33:59
stuff that we're trying to quantify like
00:34:01
their makeup and things like that like
00:34:03
that's all going it's all sort of a a
00:34:05
part of the equation.
00:34:08
>> Yeah. More more sort of three year
00:34:12
threeear college players that played in
00:34:14
the SEC or the ACC. Like I don't know
00:34:16
you're going to feel a little bit better
00:34:17
about that than maybe taking a leap of
00:34:20
faith. Now that said we've we've had
00:34:22
pretty good success stories. the
00:34:23
Phillies have in drafting high school
00:34:25
players like Andy Payner and Justin
00:34:27
Crawford. But yeah, we're there to maybe
00:34:29
like um take advantage of of some teams
00:34:32
that maybe have leaned uh even further
00:34:35
along the sort of let's focus on college
00:34:36
players spectrum.
00:34:39
>> Sam, we're real close and need to let
00:34:40
you go, but Eric wants to jump in there
00:34:42
with another question.
00:34:43
>> Building exactly on Audi's question. How
00:34:44
much do you invest in variance?
00:34:48
>> Invest well at the pro level a lot. Um
00:34:51
it's something that we we literally
00:34:54
coined the term like embracing variance.
00:34:57
Um which I think is it's cool.
00:35:01
>> Yeah. Uh I think it's easy to sort of
00:35:04
under
00:35:05
>> appreciate
00:35:07
um what player like future player
00:35:08
performance is going to look like.
00:35:09
Especially with guys that like just have
00:35:11
a couple
00:35:11
>> Exactly.
00:35:12
>> That's why I was building on Audi's
00:35:13
question. Especially if you have a young
00:35:15
town, huge variance that could be great.
00:35:17
>> Totally. because like you you can avoid
00:35:19
the downside risk like you're not you
00:35:21
know you're not entering into lifelong
00:35:23
relationships with players. That's just
00:35:25
the kind of the reality of it. Now
00:35:27
guaranteed major league contracts is one
00:35:28
thing but um you know we talk about it a
00:35:32
lot with like these sort of
00:35:32
underappreciated
00:35:34
24 year old minor leaguers that have
00:35:36
reached six-year minor league free
00:35:38
agency and 24 is pretty young. like
00:35:40
there's a lot of potential upside there
00:35:43
and you know you're getting them like a
00:35:45
lot of c you know uh control uh in that
00:35:49
you know they get to the big leagues and
00:35:51
you got six years before they hit hit
00:35:52
free agency. Um so a lot of good can
00:35:55
happen and if the opposite happens like
00:35:58
you you can always you know you never
00:36:01
want to plan or even talk about
00:36:03
releasing fire but you do obviously
00:36:05
inevitably make those decisions. So
00:36:08
yeah, I mean we have h Chris Sanchez is
00:36:11
a great example. I mean Chris Sanchez
00:36:12
was like
00:36:14
um a player who really kind of struggled
00:36:17
to get over the hump with us. He was a
00:36:20
encountering like struggle at Triple A
00:36:22
and he just took off seemingly randomly
00:36:25
a lot of like kind of stuff underneath
00:36:27
the surface that helped him turn the
00:36:29
corner. But he went from a guy who was
00:36:31
pretty close to being taken off our
00:36:34
roster to like you know what he is now
00:36:36
and it happened quick and the upside of
00:36:40
that variance is definitely like has
00:36:42
been tapped into.
00:36:44
>> That's amazing. All right, we've kept
00:36:45
you longer than we meant to. I got to
00:36:46
ask one more question. Don't answer it
00:36:48
without without thinking very hard. Just
00:36:50
three quick ones. Three quick ones
00:36:51
without thinking very hard. You're about
00:36:53
to graduate two years from now. You sunk
00:36:55
an enormous amount of time and somebody
00:36:57
you or the affiliates have sunk some
00:36:58
serious cash into what you've done for
00:37:01
the last two years. Three highlights of
00:37:03
your time as an executive MBA at Wharton
00:37:06
over the last two years
00:37:07
>> other than your class.
00:37:08
>> Other than my class, Sam, but thank you.
00:37:10
>> Okay. Um, three highlights.
00:37:13
>> Quick, quick, don't think hard. Number
00:37:15
one is like the very first week where I
00:37:17
was thrown into this simulation through
00:37:19
like a marketing simulation and I felt
00:37:23
so out of place. So in many ways a low
00:37:25
light but it's a highlight in that I
00:37:27
survived it. Got to know my learning
00:37:29
team like super fast, super quick and
00:37:31
they they kind of helped bolster me up.
00:37:33
We helped each other. Um but that was
00:37:36
like
00:37:37
>> I I was about ready to quit um one day.
00:37:39
Yeah.
00:37:40
>> Uh so that's one I think
00:37:41
>> that's great. Professor Federer's class
00:37:44
was pretty awesome.
00:37:46
>> You guys all know him. And
00:37:48
>> well, he's my colleague here in the
00:37:49
marketing department. So, I'd say I know
00:37:51
him extraordinarily well.
00:37:53
>> Applied stats, applied probability. Is
00:37:55
that
00:37:55
>> probability modeling and marketing? So,
00:37:57
um got to at least speak the language
00:37:58
that our analysts do to talk you why
00:38:02
gamas and
00:38:02
>> wels sound smart.
00:38:04
>> Um so, that that was another one. And
00:38:09
well, relatedly, not just because uh
00:38:11
Pete Feder was on trip, but the the the
00:38:13
global trip to Stockholm was fantastic.
00:38:16
Um just getting to see a different part
00:38:19
of the world. Um getting my wife to
00:38:21
actually join me towards the end, but
00:38:23
but also just interacting with folks
00:38:25
from the San Francisco corps and the
00:38:27
global cohort that we didn't really get
00:38:28
a chance to um overlap with a ton. And I
00:38:32
don't know, getting your hands dirty
00:38:33
with like meeting with companies and
00:38:34
hearing about how they think. like I
00:38:36
live in a narrow lane and this this
00:38:38
baseball world is very niche. Um, so
00:38:41
getting like a real hands-on opportunity
00:38:43
to to talk to pretty cool people over
00:38:45
there that are doing some really
00:38:46
innovative stuff.
00:38:48
>> That was cool.
00:38:49
>> That's great. Appreciate it. Good
00:38:50
rundown, Sam. Thanks for making the
00:38:52
time. Uh, good luck with uh, getting the
00:38:54
season underway and we'll talk with you
00:38:56
down the road. Oh, and good luck getting
00:38:58
out of here graduating in six weeks.
00:39:00
>> I passed your class. I'm I'm I'm
00:39:02
throughout sixth grade.
00:39:05
Thanks,
00:39:06
>> Sam Ful. Sam Ful, uh, vice president and
00:39:09
general manager of the Philadelphia
00:39:11
Phillies, on his way as soon as he
00:39:13
graduates to being, um, president of
00:39:15
baseball operations with the Philly
00:39:17
Samold. That's been the first half of
00:39:19
this week's show. Come back and join us
00:39:21
after the break for the second half.
00:39:23
Welcome back. Welcome back to Wharton
00:39:26
Moneyball. Welcome to the second half of
00:39:27
this week's show. Just out of break,
00:39:30
just off a long conversation with Sam
00:39:32
Fold, GM over V, VP and GM over at the
00:39:36
Phillies. Been there a while. Former
00:39:38
Major League Baseball player, one of our
00:39:39
executive NBA students, about to
00:39:41
graduate. We were um gushing, I think is
00:39:44
the technical term about him over the
00:39:47
break. Great interview. Enjoyed it. Um
00:39:49
fellas, it's a fun time of year. We've
00:39:52
got a few things going on. Let's see how
00:39:55
many rounds of what caught your eye we
00:39:57
can go through in this short second half
00:40:00
to touch on some of these things.
00:40:02
Gentlemen, one of you want to jump in.
00:40:04
What caught your eye? World of sports.
00:40:05
>> Yeah, I'll just go quickly. Um I'm
00:40:08
pretty sure in last night's national
00:40:10
championship men's game, I'm pretty sure
00:40:13
Michigan played terribly
00:40:15
>> for them. For them
00:40:17
>> first half for sure. Most of the first
00:40:19
half,
00:40:20
>> right? But I'm just saying like
00:40:22
Connecticut did a great job. Like I I'm
00:40:25
pretty sure if you I don't make it up
00:40:27
like a thousand games were played. This
00:40:29
may have been close to the minimum
00:40:31
difference that Michigan wins the game
00:40:33
by. And I give Billy Danur
00:40:36
play a thousand times. Yukon's going to
00:40:38
win near the minimum. I'm just saying I
00:40:41
think uh I always forget what Dan
00:40:43
Hurley. Yeah, Bobb's the other Dan
00:40:44
Hurley. I think he did a great job
00:40:47
coaching in that game because they were
00:40:49
not the better team and he did a great
00:40:52
job and that's what caught my eye is
00:40:53
that I was like, boy, I'm pretty sure
00:40:55
Michigan's going to win this game.
00:40:57
Pretty sure. But I don't think they're
00:40:59
playing that well and they're they're
00:41:00
obviously in the first half they were
00:41:02
missing every shot, but also I'm not
00:41:04
even sure they were taking great shots.
00:41:06
It just seemed like they were playing
00:41:07
poorly but still winning, which is why I
00:41:09
was confident. That's what caught my
00:41:10
eye. Well, on that on that point, we've
00:41:13
had examples so far um led especially by
00:41:16
Texas Tech of programs spending money in
00:41:19
NIL to buy competitiveness. They
00:41:22
famously signed the best softballer in
00:41:26
the country to a $1 million contract two
00:41:28
years ago and instantly made the College
00:41:31
World Series for the first time. They
00:41:34
spent big in football this past season
00:41:37
and instantly made the playoffs. Not
00:41:39
quite instantly. A couple years into
00:41:40
that made the playoffs and here comes
00:41:42
Michigan. All five starters were
00:41:45
transfers. They spent $10 million. They
00:41:47
were only eight and 24 last year. It's
00:41:51
it's going to be the billboard for teams
00:41:55
looking for turnarounds. And so you got
00:41:56
to have money, but it seems like you got
00:41:58
to have more than that. You got to have
00:41:59
a coach that can put these things
00:42:00
together. You've got to the people you
00:42:02
go out and sign to these contracts have
00:42:03
to be what you think they are. They have
00:42:06
to fit together. Um, so I think we
00:42:09
probably do a disservice to Michigan to
00:42:11
say it's just, you know, writing $10
00:42:12
million in checks. But that's one of the
00:42:14
stories that's going to come out of this
00:42:15
for sure. And it's going to be too glib
00:42:17
a story, I think.
00:42:19
>> Yeah. Also, I just want to point out for
00:42:21
those of you that didn't watch, what a
00:42:24
wonderful played women's final as well.
00:42:27
UCLA was just incredible in that game
00:42:31
against South Carolina. I mean, if you
00:42:32
had told me that UCLA would blow him
00:42:35
out, and let's remember South Carolina
00:42:37
is probably the most accomplished
00:42:39
program over the last 5 years. I think
00:42:41
this is, you know, I forget if it's Dawn
00:42:42
Stilly's third championship game in four
00:42:45
years or etc., but I mean, South
00:42:47
Carolina has been a extraordinarily
00:42:49
accomplished team. And that was just an
00:42:52
ex I mean, I just thought UCLA was an
00:42:54
extraordinarily well coached and well
00:42:56
played team. So, I enjoyed both games
00:42:59
equally, but for different reasons.
00:43:01
Eric, they did the same thing to Texas
00:43:02
in the semis. Um, I turned it on in the
00:43:05
fir end of the first quarter and it was
00:43:07
14 to6. The Horns, I think they might
00:43:09
have got another bucket. They might have
00:43:10
scored eight in the first quarter, but
00:43:12
they had six late in the first quarter.
00:43:14
It's just, and this is Texas is like
00:43:16
people thought they were probably the
00:43:18
best team in the country coming into the
00:43:19
tournament. Six points in the first
00:43:21
quarter. It made me feel so much better
00:43:23
when UCLA did that to South Carolina
00:43:25
because they clearly had something
00:43:26
special. Okay, Shane, what caught your
00:43:28
eye? Well, I should give a shout out to
00:43:30
the Philadelphia uh Flyers, I feel like,
00:43:33
who have they're they're still only at
00:43:35
about 50% to make the playoffs, but that
00:43:37
is up from like
00:43:38
>> Yeah,
00:43:39
>> I would say like 15 20% it was like a
00:43:41
week or two ago. They've been on a on a
00:43:44
heater as they say. Um and it's been fun
00:43:47
to watch and uh so yeah, I hope I I hope
00:43:49
they can keep it up. They're uh like I
00:43:51
said, like I said, it's basically a coin
00:43:53
flip at this point.
00:43:55
>> So Shane, let's stay with NHL hockey for
00:43:57
a second. Um, you're a a Western guy. I
00:44:00
always lose track. They've changed the
00:44:02
names of the conferences. They used to
00:44:04
be impossible to know, but they were
00:44:05
cool. Now they're Noble, but not cool.
00:44:07
So, you're a Western Conference guy.
00:44:09
Calgary, I'm guessing, is going to miss
00:44:11
it again. Edmonton might slide.
00:44:12
>> Calgary is definitely going to miss it.
00:44:14
>> Edmonton, you're bitter because they're
00:44:15
going to slide in with a better seed
00:44:16
than they should. Is that what you were
00:44:18
winging about? Is that what I heard?
00:44:20
>> I guess I I'll win. I'll win a little
00:44:23
bit. I mean it's the way and I
00:44:24
understand the intention but the way the
00:44:26
playoffs in hockey are seed like are are
00:44:28
set for the playoffs is it's basically
00:44:30
you compete with within a division.
00:44:33
There are wildcard kind of teams that
00:44:35
kind of cross over divisions but
00:44:38
essentially the it'll be set up such
00:44:41
that the the the you'll you'll you know
00:44:44
probably kind of like you'll have to win
00:44:45
within the division to get to the semis.
00:44:48
>> Okay. Um, again with the wild cards, you
00:44:50
could technically play some teams out of
00:44:51
division, but regardless that basically,
00:44:54
and I'll just point out Western hockey
00:44:56
right now, there's a huge discrepancy
00:44:59
between kind of the top teams in this
00:45:01
the central division of the West versus
00:45:04
the Pacific Division of the West. The
00:45:06
Oilers are heading up the Pacific
00:45:07
division of the West at like 87 points
00:45:11
or 88 points or something like that. And
00:45:13
then like in the central division you
00:45:15
got like Colorado and Dallas and
00:45:18
Minnesota all like at 100 points.
00:45:20
>> So it's a huge it's
00:45:22
>> you bring up an interesting and
00:45:23
basically one of the three of those
00:45:25
teams are probably going to go have to
00:45:27
go through each other. Only one of those
00:45:28
three teams will survive to the point
00:45:30
where Edmonton will beat them in the
00:45:32
semis because they'll be
00:45:33
>> Can you give me a let me ask a question.
00:45:34
I know in baseball the answer and I know
00:45:36
in football the answer.
00:45:37
>> Yeah.
00:45:38
>> Is there an unbalanced schedule in
00:45:39
hockey? Like, do you play the teams in
00:45:41
your division more than you play other
00:45:43
teams, which I assume probably. Okay.
00:45:45
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:47
>> Yeah. If that's true, which I'm sure it
00:45:49
is, I love the design then of playing
00:45:52
within a division first because if
00:45:54
you're all going to benefit possible,
00:45:56
let's say, let's take for example in
00:45:57
baseball, they don't do it that way. But
00:46:00
let's say the Yankees and the I don't
00:46:02
know the Blue Jays in a given year.
00:46:04
Let's say the Red Sox and the Orioles.
00:46:06
>> Oh, I see. I see. Well, they're going to
00:46:09
benefit from playing more games against
00:46:11
him. Eliminate each other first and then
00:46:13
get out of that division. I actually
00:46:14
like that design.
00:46:16
>> I mean, it's it's not it's I I mean,
00:46:18
it's always been kind of like organized
00:46:20
that way where you kind of and you get
00:46:22
more of a sense of a division winner
00:46:24
this way. I I mean, again, I it I don't
00:46:27
I I I don't I don't usually have
00:46:30
problems with the design or the general
00:46:32
kind of difference to divisions, but you
00:46:35
do get these kind of discrepancies. So I
00:46:37
mean MLB suffers from this when like you
00:46:39
know like the central team like you know
00:46:42
somebody's got to win the central and go
00:46:43
to the playoffs and it could be a very
00:46:45
different kind of competitive
00:46:46
environment compared to the ALE. So I
00:46:48
think in in hockey we just happen to
00:46:49
have in the West right now that kind of
00:46:51
discrepancy where you're going to have
00:46:54
like essentially the top the top team
00:46:56
from the Pacific is is you know regular
00:46:58
season wise is way lower than the than
00:47:01
the Central but they you know the
00:47:03
Central kind of beat have to play
00:47:05
through each other in the playoffs.
00:47:07
Yeah.
00:47:07
>> Well, it's always fun to um provoke
00:47:10
Shane into some Edmonton Oiler hate, you
00:47:12
know. It's just fun for me. It's like,
00:47:15
you know, we we
00:47:17
>> hater flows very easily from me these
00:47:19
days, as it turns out.
00:47:21
>> Well, it's like asking, you know, a
00:47:22
Redskins fan about the Cowboys or or a
00:47:25
Ravens fan about the Steelers. And
00:47:26
>> Yankees fan about the Red Sox.
00:47:28
>> Yes. So, Shane can play that role.
00:47:30
>> Want to talk about the Red Sox these
00:47:31
days, but yeah,
00:47:32
>> these days. Okay, I'll give you a quick
00:47:33
one on hockey. We are rolling into the
00:47:36
Frozen Four. The semis are on Thursday
00:47:39
and the finals on Saturday. Frozen four
00:47:41
competitors this year are Michigan and
00:47:45
Denver. These are two titans in the
00:47:47
college uh hockey world. Like 10 nine or
00:47:50
10 championships each. And then on the
00:47:52
other side, North Dakota and Wisconsin.
00:47:55
One fun fact, here's just a little
00:47:56
connection to it for us all. Will
00:47:58
Horcuff is a is a forward for the
00:48:02
Michigan team. Tall fella. Shane's
00:48:04
recognizing the name. I'm sorry. I think
00:48:06
he might have played for the Oilers
00:48:07
again, Shane. I'm throwing more Oilers
00:48:08
at you. But Horcuff was his dad, Sean
00:48:11
Horov, was a a forward for a
00:48:14
professional teams. He's an assistant
00:48:16
general manager for the Wims and he is
00:48:20
one of our uh executive ed students
00:48:22
who's getting a degree, a general
00:48:24
management degree through exec. So Sean,
00:48:26
Will's dad, has come through our program
00:48:28
multiple times. and Will Horov was the
00:48:32
number one pick of the Pittsburgh
00:48:34
Penguins last year. And we're often, you
00:48:37
know, lauding the Penguins front office
00:48:39
and what Kyle Dubis and those guys run
00:48:42
franchise as far as I can tell.
00:48:43
>> Exactly. So, I'm on for the I'm on for
00:48:46
Michigan rolling into the Frozen Four.
00:48:48
Um, let's do another round. We have time
00:48:50
for one more round. Eric, what else has
00:48:51
caught your eye?
00:48:52
>> Well, I think we got to talk about the
00:48:54
uh the Masters coming up. I mean, it's
00:48:57
uh I think this is as wide open a
00:49:00
Masters as I've seen in a while. I mean,
00:49:03
I understand Scotty Sheoffller is still
00:49:05
the best player in the world. He is, but
00:49:06
you wouldn't call him on a heater. As a
00:49:08
matter of fact, you know, his last
00:49:10
couple tournaments, he's played mortal
00:49:12
for Scotty Sheffller. Like, he only came
00:49:14
in like 10th or 15th in these
00:49:16
tournaments. And so, I think he's
00:49:18
clearly the favorite. He's the betting
00:49:20
favorite, but I don't consider him the
00:49:22
overwhelming favorite like in a lot of
00:49:25
the tournaments last year. So, that
00:49:27
leaves it wide open. I mean, how much
00:49:29
more likely is Mroy to win it now that
00:49:32
he's already won one? I understand it's
00:49:34
hard to win two in a row. I mean, the
00:49:35
last person to do it was Tiger and so
00:49:37
that's a long time ago. That was like
00:49:39
20201. It hasn't happened in 25 years.
00:49:43
How, you know, um, that's the question.
00:49:46
Um,
00:49:47
>> yeah. And I I I guess maybe maybe we can
00:49:49
both kind of think all three of us think
00:49:51
about like
00:49:52
>> try and take Tiger the Tiger era out.
00:49:56
>> Is this now as like like so the Tiger
00:49:59
era we can agree was the least wide open
00:50:01
of all time, you know, in terms of like
00:50:03
the Fab or whatever. But take Tiger out
00:50:05
like like you know is it is it do you
00:50:07
feel like the current era of golf is
00:50:10
like wide open compared to what it was
00:50:12
in like the 90s pre-tiger or do you kind
00:50:15
of like feel like like I kind of feel
00:50:17
like um and I I don't watch as much as
00:50:20
you guys do but I kind of feel like the
00:50:22
same you know there was even more
00:50:23
turnover in terms of tournament winners
00:50:25
especially among the majors like back in
00:50:27
the nine like in the pre-tiger
00:50:29
era than in the post tiger era. Let me
00:50:32
see the following. Uh, Shane, looking at
00:50:34
the odds here, okay? And something just
00:50:36
stuck out at me. Of the top 15 people
00:50:39
listed here, I'm going to say seven or
00:50:42
eight of them are multiple time major
00:50:45
winners. So, Scotty Sheffller, I think,
00:50:48
has four majors. John Rom has two.
00:50:51
Bryson Dashambo has two. Roy Moy has
00:50:54
six. Xander Schoffé has two. Uh, Colin
00:50:58
Morawa has two or three. Brooks Kepka
00:51:00
has six. Jordan Speath has four. So my
00:51:04
comment is the thing I'm excited about
00:51:06
on Sunday with any of those guys or
00:51:09
multiple of those guys. They've all won
00:51:12
it before. Not necessarily the Masters,
00:51:14
but they've won multiple majors. So the
00:51:17
idea here is not like there's one guy
00:51:19
with all the majors. It's not like
00:51:21
there's
00:51:21
>> Alarazz.
00:51:23
Oh, there's 10 guys I just listed that
00:51:25
have won multiple majors, not even just
00:51:27
one.
00:51:28
>> No. But I mean I think that's a great
00:51:30
kind of statistic for kind of capturing
00:51:32
wide open or like you know wide
00:51:34
openness. It's just now historically it
00:51:36
would be interesting to calculate that
00:51:38
statistic kind of through the years
00:51:40
watch it dip when Tiger was one and
00:51:42
everything obviously and then but again
00:51:44
like are we kind of like I wonder again
00:51:46
in in in in sort of uh historically if
00:51:49
you thought about like you you just
00:51:51
listed off what like six seven people
00:51:52
that have won like have multiple like
00:51:55
you know the the statistic is number of
00:51:57
current golfers with multiple majors won
00:52:01
and I kind of wondered what what that
00:52:03
stat that value looks like kind of
00:52:05
through golf history
00:52:08
>> I guess specifically like n like kind of
00:52:10
immediately pre-tiger versus post tiger.
00:52:13
>> Well, you're also talking post uh
00:52:15
Nicholas Watson. I suppose those were
00:52:17
the legends that kind of they dipped
00:52:19
before Tiger Rose and there was this in
00:52:20
between the David Dval David Dval
00:52:24
moment.
00:52:25
>> Greg Norman would Greg Norman was one of
00:52:28
the Nick Fo would count in that same
00:52:30
thing obviously. Um, so that's a
00:52:32
concentration of the top talent in golf
00:52:35
is an interesting question, Shane. We
00:52:36
could operationalize it in a few ways.
00:52:38
Uh, are there any names that you're
00:52:39
especially curious about? I just just to
00:52:41
pimp one of our common our frequent
00:52:43
guests, Dan Rapaore is one of the great
00:52:46
follows on golf these days and Dan wrote
00:52:49
a piece rating had not just rating but
00:52:52
commenting on all 91 players. This is a
00:52:54
fun interesting thing about
00:52:56
>> reading those
00:52:57
>> small fields. Masters is the smallest
00:52:59
field because they've got 911 and that
00:53:00
includes the old guys who get in just
00:53:02
because they they won.
00:53:02
>> Freddy Couples is playing Anal Cabrera,
00:53:05
BJ Sting. They're not winning.
00:53:07
>> Is Mike still playing?
00:53:09
>> Mike We still Canadian legend
00:53:13
Jose Maria Olafabel. These guys are
00:53:15
still playing.
00:53:15
>> Yeah.
00:53:16
>> And Rapor gave all of those guys a
00:53:18
paragraph. I never thought I was
00:53:19
interested in reading all 91 and I just
00:53:21
read all 91. A couple that stood out to
00:53:23
me were Schoffé. He's playing apparently
00:53:26
real well these days and this would be
00:53:28
the third leg of a career grand slam for
00:53:30
him. Think Matt Fitzpatrick is someone
00:53:33
that's due in in some ways. Um and you
00:53:37
know I was think oh Dshambo is just he's
00:53:41
just really strong player hasn't he's
00:53:45
he's Rapor said that he's learned over
00:53:47
time how to dial it down a little bit
00:53:49
for the Masters at Augusta and I think
00:53:52
above the big names I think he might be
00:53:54
the one that I would put the most on and
00:53:56
then on the other side he talked about
00:53:58
Morocawa just came up injured um and uh
00:54:01
I think he came up injured at the
00:54:03
players
00:54:03
>> it's a shame because he was playing
00:54:05
really well.
00:54:06
>> Exactly. Um but then also Justin Rose
00:54:09
would be an all-time favorite. Rose is
00:54:11
still playing at whatever 40 and well
00:54:13
into his 40s. He's famously great about
00:54:16
his health and he's just been at it for
00:54:18
so long. I remember him as a kid at the
00:54:20
British Open playing as an amateur I
00:54:21
think and doing really well.
00:54:23
>> He's come in second like four or five
00:54:24
times last year. He lost to Tiger once
00:54:27
in second like in playoff last year to
00:54:30
Rory. He might be the single most uh the
00:54:33
strongest sentimental favorite for the
00:54:35
weekend. So good good fun going in. And
00:54:37
by the way, little advertisement for
00:54:38
next week. We have a guest, a former
00:54:41
student, we happen to be on a student
00:54:42
run, no just by coincidence, who is
00:54:46
running analytics in at the highest
00:54:48
levels of golf and she's partnering with
00:54:51
the high biggest names in golf and she's
00:54:53
in Augusta for the weekend and we're
00:54:55
going to talk with her about the
00:54:56
tournament and what she's doing and some
00:54:57
of her partnerships on Tuesday next
00:54:59
week. Why don't we let it sit there
00:55:03
fellas? That's been almost an hour here.
00:55:05
A good quick rundown. Um, more to come
00:55:08
in future weeks. But that's it for this
00:55:11
week for the team here. Shane Jensen and
00:55:13
Eric Bradlo here through the end with
00:55:15
us. Audi Winer who had to run and catch
00:55:17
a train for Dion Simpkins who makes this
00:55:19
whole thing go round week after week.
00:55:22
Our producer Murena and the big boss De
00:55:24
Patel who does things like pull
00:55:26
fantastic guests out of thin air as she
00:55:29
did this week. Thank you Dee. Thank you
00:55:31
guys for listening. Come back and join
00:55:32
us next time. Between now and then,
00:55:35
enjoy your sports.
