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Well, we're here to talk with
Dr. Jonathan Haidt from New York
00:00:24
University, about his book that
came out last year, <i>The</i>
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<i>Righteous Mind: Why Good People
Are Divided By Politics And</i>
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<i>Religion</i>. It's great to have you
here, John. - Thanks.
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Great to be here at Wharton. - Thank you for
joining us. One of the— one of
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the big questions your book
wrestles with is why is it so
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hard for liberals and
conservatives to understand each
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other? Why?
- Why?
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Well, the very nature of
morality, the big thing that it
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does, that I think isn't
sufficiently appreciated, is
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that it binds us into groups
that can do things in the world.
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In the animal kingdom, the only
time you get cooperation is
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pretty much kinship. You get
pairs of individuals
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occasionally. But elsewhere in
the animal kingdom, it's just
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family. And human beings have
this incredible capacity to come
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together in groups and do big
things. And when you look back
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at the early history of
cooperation, you always find
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temples, gods, religion. People
circle around sacred objects.
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That binds them together. But at the
same time it blinds them. They
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can't think for themselves, or
they become partisan, they
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become members of the group.
Liberals and conservatives in
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America, now— each country has its
own particular battles. Liberals
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and conservatives are bound around
different sacred values, sacred
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principles, and they absolutely
cannot understand each other.
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They are forbidden from
understanding each other lest
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they be kicked out of their
tribe.
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And you published the book last
year. Have you— has anything happened
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to change your mind?
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Let's see. Well, since
publishing the book, not really.
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I've— the book has gotten a good
reception— right, left, center,
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libertarian—except on the far
left. Some people on the far
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left hate it, and the New
Atheists hate it. But those are
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groups that I criticize in the
book. So that's not surprising.
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I changed my mind a lot while
writing the book. And when I
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started writing the book, I
still considered myself to be a
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partisan liberal. And I actually
began the project— I began
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shifting over from just studying
morality across cultures to
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studying morality across
political cultures as though
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they were different nations. I
started that after the 2004
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Kerry loss to George W. Bush.
And I wanted to grab Kerry and
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the Democrats by the lapels and
say, "Don't you know how to make
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a moral argument? Why do you
keep appealing to self interest
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and my policy will do more for
you? Can't you make a moral
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argument?" So I got into the
political psychology business
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originally to help the
Democrats. And along the way, in
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really trying to, to get inside
the head of people from
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different moralities, I came to
see that each side sees certain
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truths and insights and threats
that they're right about.
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So you've been on an ideological
journey of your own. And it is
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possible for people to change
their minds? - Yes,
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all you have to do is study
morality for 25 years, and try
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to write a book in which you
state the other side's case
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sympathetically. It should be
possible.
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I asked the question about the
possibility of changing your
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mind because you do embrace, in
the book, a fairly strong
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version of moral intuitionist
theory. - Right.
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- Of how people work
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through puzzles of this sort.
Could you say a few words about
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that? - Sure. - Of what moral
intuitionism is, and its
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implications for our capacity to change.
- That's right.
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So a dominant thread in
the history of philosophy is
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rationalism, the idea that we
are or at least could be
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reasoning creatures. And if we
can cultivate our reason, then
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we will rise above the fog of
emotions, see the truth, we can
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talk to each other, and we will
find laden truth. And my book
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is a sustained argument against
that. I side very much with
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David Hume, the 18th century
Scottish philosopher who said
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that reason is and ought only to
be the slave of the passions.
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And so what I believe the
empirical evidence from
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psychology shows is that our
reasoning tends to be post hoc.
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Our reasoning about moral issues
tends to be something we do
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after we already know which way
we want to go. And we send our
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reasoning out like a press
secretary. The President says
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the press secretary to say,
"Justify this position." He
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doesn't say, "Go look at the
notes about how we came to this
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position and explain that to the
people." He says, "Justify this
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position, using whatever
arguments you think would be
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most persuasive." And that's the
way our reasoning is. And this
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is why we are so good at giving
each other reasons, but then the
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other person doesn't change
their mind. And we think, "Well,
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they must not be sincere. I
mean, this is a great argument.
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Why aren't you changing your mind?"
The trick to changing people's
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minds is to first get them
leaning your way. First, make
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them see a conclusion. Feel it.
Think about— think about Martin
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Luther King's "I Have a Dream"
speech. It is a kind of
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argument, but it's an argument
couched in metaphors and soaring
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rhetoric. It opens your heart
first, and then the metaphors
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can get in. And then you see the
logic of it. So I actually do
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believe quite a lot in the
importance of reason for
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persuasion. Just, it has to be
reason that follows intuition,
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not excludes it.
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So if you were President of the
United States right now, what
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would you do to encourage more
civil dialogue between liberals
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and conservatives, that the
current president United States
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is not doing?
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The number one top priority for
this country is political
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reform, to get our political
institutions working better.
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Everyone agrees that Congress
has gotten much, much more
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polarized since the 1980s. There
are a lot of reasons for that.
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The people have gotten a little
more polarized. There's plenty
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that we could do as citizens.
But the real problem is the
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dynamics of one institution in
particular, the US Congress. So
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there's a group called No
labels.org, which has a great
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set of solutions. We all know
that we need campaign finance
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reform, we need electoral
reform, these things are going
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to take 10 or 20 years if we
ever get them at all. They have
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some simple fixes, the most
important which is change the
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legislative calendar back the
way it was before Newt Gingrich,
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which is, Washington is in
session for five days a week.
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And then it's off for one week
a month. When Newt Gingrich came
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in, he told the incoming
freshmen, "Don't move to
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Washington." Prior to then, they
all lived in Washington. They
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served on committees together on
school boards, or their wives
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or spouses did. They knew each
other. They knew each other's
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kids. They had personal
relationships. Now, think about it.
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Politicians, what do they excel
at? They're warm, incredibly,
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socially-skilled people. That's
how they got into this business.
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They're able to make deals with
each other. That's— that's their
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great skill. And you take an
institution that—that has
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trouble as it is, that has all
these divided powers as it is.
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And then you say, "How about
let's separate the two sides,
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they no longer know each other,
no friendships, they don't ride
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on the same little buses under—
little train cars underneath the
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Capitol anymore, there's
separate— separate cars for
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each. Let's end all personal
relationships, and now have them
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work out difficult issues." It
can't be done. So that's where
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we are. So there are a lot of
simple fixes to Congress that
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would go a long way towards
basically getting it to work
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better. And if Congress wasn't
so polarized, that would— that
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would dampen down the messages
out through all the polarized
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media, that we all have to hate
each other and that the other
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side is going to destroy the
country. - So
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John, at the end of chapter four
of your book, you write that no
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one has ever invented a new
business ethics class that has
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demonstrably changed the
behavior of the students after
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the classroom experience. And
now at NYU Stern, you have begun
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teaching business ethics. Why?
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Well, yes, they— because they
asked me to, and I couldn't say
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no. And because I made it sound
kind of hopeless in the book.
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And I stand by that, that a
single standalone course,
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meeting twice a week for a
semester, can't put ethics into
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people's heads so that when
they go out into the work world,
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and they're faced with
requirements or pressures to do
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something, falsify something,
hide some information from a
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customer, they're gonna remember
their ethics classes and say, "Oh, but
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this is wrong." There's no
evidence that that can happen.
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The evidence in social
psychology about the power of
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simple situational pressures is
so overwhelming that I don't
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think an ethics class can really
do that much. What I'm hoping we
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can do at Stern is— is make the
class just a part of a two-year
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process in which we are
socializing them into
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professionalism. What does it
mean to be a business
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professional? When they first
show up at Stern, like students
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all over the country at every
school, there's a period of
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openness where everyone's trying to
figure out, "How should I be?
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What's cool? What's the right
way to, you know— what's the way
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to be successful here?" We teach
our ethics class in the middle
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of the second year. It's way too
late. They already know how to
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be a Stern student. And so
what we're trying to do is get a
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lot more of the content into the
very first week, move the
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intensive class into other parts
of the first year, and then get
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some of the content in every
single class, where there— where
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we'll discuss norms of
professionalism. But even more
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important than that, because I
think that we're so limited in
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our ability to behave ethically
in the face of situational
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pressures, I want to teach our
students how to do ethical
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systems design. How to take all
the flaws and weirdnesses of
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human nature and work with them
to design organizations, startup
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companies, where people are
always concerned about the
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reputation. People are concerned
about reputation even more than
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money, in most cases. How can we
set things up so that people
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will, in a sense, guard the
reputation by doing the right
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thing? That's the most important
single principle.
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So did these liberal-conservative
differences that are so
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pronounced in the political
sphere manifest themselves in
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the domain of business ethics?
Are there some aspects of ethics
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that are trans-ideological and
other aspects that— that polarize
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people just as political issues
do? - Yes,
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the core issues of business
ethics— again, I'm new at this.
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But from what I'm picking up,
some of the core issues are
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things like fiduciary duty. You
have an obligation to people who
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are hiring you to do a job, to
fulfill a contract, to put their
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interests first. I don't see any
partisan difference there. Other
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issues, like corporate social
responsibility, are clearly
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partisan issues. One of the
hottest topics in business
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ethics is how can we get
companies to honor or maximize
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the triple bottom line, not just
the financial bottom line, but
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also social benefit and
ecological benefit? Obviously,
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this is going to appeal to
students on the left and not on
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the right. Let's see. I don't
know of issues that would appeal
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more to students on the right.
Conservatives tend to focus more
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on personal responsibility.
Liberals tend to focus more on
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victims and the poor. But the
core of the course seems to
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be non ideological.
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So the Friedmanite
libertarians, for example, tend
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to view any deviation from
fiduciary responsibility to
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shareholders as a form of theft.
- That's right. - De facto theft.
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That's— that's strong position. Is that—
have you come across that
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position? And—
- Oh, yeah, I do.
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Yes, I read— I read the article where
Friedman lays that out, it's a
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very persuasive case. And I
think if we truly had efficient
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markets, in which there were no
externalities, in which there
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was no despoiling of public
goods, in which there was
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perfect information, and people
weren't allowed to deceive and
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cheat, then I think the Friedman
argument would work. And I
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believe Friedman was very aware
of that and— and wasn't saying,
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"Oh, just maximize shareholder
value, no matter what the
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situation." If we had— if we had
such good markets, where
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companies couldn't be foisting
costs onto unsuspecting victims,
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then I think there would be a
lot to be said for it. But we
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don't have such a — such a— such a
system. Government regulation is
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necessary for— to achieve
much of that. And that's what
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things are so polarized about.
What's the role of government?
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Is it, do you have a maximal view in
which government has to strain—
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restrain the corporations? Or
do you have a minimal view, in
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which government is the problem,
and the more we can shrink it
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down, the freer business will be
to create value.
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You don't see very many
companies, though, overtly
00:12:24
endorsing the Friedmanite
position. Virtually all
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companies I've come across seem
to endorse some form of CSR,
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corporate social responsibility.
Has that been your experience
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also? I mean— - Well, you know.
- Putting— TJ Rodgers and so forth.
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You know, but most people are in favor of
motherhood and apple pie. I
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mean, they have to say
something. There's no cost to
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saying it. I would want to know
how much they put in the way of
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resources towards backing that
up. And I'd be surprised if it
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was uniformly the case that— or
overwhelmingly the case— that
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companies are sincerely
committed to CSR.
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Okay. So let's— let's circle
back to the press secretary
00:12:57
metaphor that you use earlier,
when you were describing moral
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intuitionism.
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Are you able to
distinguish what fraction of the
00:13:06
embrace of corporate social
responsibility is purely press
00:13:09
secretary posturing, as opposed
to a genuine internalization of
00:13:14
a moral priority?
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I can't. I don't know how to do
that. The main thought I've had
00:13:19
so far in my one year in the
business world, and at the Stern
00:13:23
School of Business, is that
whatever you want to say about
00:13:26
business, it varies a lot by
sector. So a company like Nike,
00:13:30
or Starbucks, or Google, which
greatly prizes its reputation
00:13:35
with consumers, and has a
tremendous cachet because of
00:13:38
that reputation. Those companies
are really susceptible to
00:13:42
boycotts, public criticism. They
care about the reputations. And
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so I think they do— especially
when their feet are held to the
00:13:48
fire— they really do make a
sincere commitment to corporate
00:13:51
social responsibility. Companies
that don't face consumers— so,
00:13:55
just from reading Michael
Pollan's book <i>The Omnivore's</i>
00:13:57
<i>Dilemma</i>, the big agribusiness
companies. You know, Archer
00:14:02
Daniels Midland and the other
ones that, people don't even know
00:14:07
their names. So I would be very
surprised if they took corporate
00:14:11
social responsibility seriously.
There's not much economic
00:14:13
incentive for them to do it.
00:14:15
So again, cycling back to the
press secretary metaphor, which
00:14:18
is really an intriguing one.
You've got the President of the United
00:14:22
States, and you have— you have
his press secretary, and the
00:14:25
press secretary is there to
explain and defend what the
00:14:27
President does. He's not a
policymaker, per se. He's a
00:14:31
secondary justification
function. And that's— that's
00:14:34
quite explicit. So— but yet
you're optimistic about attitude
00:14:40
change within a moral
intuitionist framework. It would
00:14:43
be as though the press secretary
were telling the President what
00:14:46
to do, as opposed to the
president telling the press
00:14:48
secretary what to do.
00:14:49
So if you look at it just as an
individual, we are all so
00:14:53
flawed. We're all such— so bad at
reasoning when our interests or our
00:14:56
moral values are at stake. So
we're not going to get better
00:15:01
reasoning and change just by
helping individuals to reason
00:15:04
better. But when you put us
together into networks and
00:15:08
systems and companies and juries
and— and legislative bodies,
00:15:13
that— we can correct each other's
flawed thinking. Basically, the
00:15:15
big problem is the confirmation
bias. We're all so good at
00:15:17
confirming what we want to
believe. But if there are other
00:15:20
people out there to disconfirm
it, if we have no relationship
00:15:23
with them, we just hate them and
disagree with them. But if
00:15:26
they're members of our company,
if they're friends, if they're
00:15:30
fellow scientists— this is why
it's so important to have
00:15:31
ideological diversity in the
sciences. Because if everybody
00:15:35
shares certain assumptions, and
there's nobody there to question
00:15:37
them, then yeah, you get bad
reasoning. So I'm a big fan of
00:15:40
thinking about institutions as
ways that we've developed to put
00:15:45
people together in ways that
correct for or cancel out our
00:15:47
flaws. We see plenty of moral
change over time. It's not
00:15:52
because of logic, I think. If
you look at, for example, civil
00:15:57
rights, interracial marriage,
these were disgusting to many
00:16:01
people in America 50 years ago.
But over time, the attitudes
00:16:05
change. It's not because of
arguments. It's because you get
00:16:07
used to it. There's a lot of
research now on gay marriage.
00:16:11
Why is gay marriage— why are
attitudes about gay marriage
00:16:13
changing so fast? It's not
because the arguments that were
00:16:16
made back in the '80s, suddenly,
people understood. "Oh, I see."
00:16:20
It's because people saw <i>Will and Grace</i>.
It's because in the '80s,
00:16:24
most gay people are in the closet.
But since 5% of all people are
00:16:26
gay, and now they're mostly out
of the closet, suddenly,
00:16:29
everybody knows seven gay people
and a lot have one in their
00:16:31
family. When you get used to
something, you — it loses its
00:16:35
shock value, it loses disgust
value, and now you're just much
00:16:37
more open. So moral progress is
possible. And if you take an
00:16:42
intuitionist view about how you've
got to get the intuitions,
00:16:45
right first, you've got to speak
to the elephant as it were, not
00:16:47
the rider. Speak the elephant
first, get— get him going the
00:16:50
right direction, then the rider
will come along. And that's
00:16:52
what's happening on gay
marriage.
00:16:54
We might might have a problem
with mixing metaphors here.
00:16:56
We've got elephant and rider.
We've got President and press
00:16:58
secretary, and I'm fixated on
President and press secretary at
00:17:01
the moment. But okay, so— so
the president might— the press
00:17:07
secretary might come back to the
President and say, "I can't sell
00:17:09
this anymore. The
reputational cost to you, Mr.
00:17:12
President is too great. You're going
to have to change. - That's right.
00:17:14
But that would be one feedback
mechanism. - That's right.
00:17:17
- Or— - Exactly.
- Press secretary might quit.
00:17:20
- Yep. That's right.
00:17:21
That happens. That's right. So
it's not— so when Hume said
00:17:24
reason is the slave of the
passions, that's too strong a
00:17:26
metaphor. A slave doesn't talk
back to its master. That's why
00:17:30
I like press secretary or lawyer.
A lawyer does his client's
00:17:33
bidding, but he can say, "Excuse
me, sir, I will do this, if you
00:17:36
insist. But this is a losing
case, and you will look bad, and
00:17:39
it is my fiduciary duty to
advise you." So there are
00:17:42
feedback mechanisms like that.
And again, I think we're seeing
00:17:45
that on— you know, on gay
marriage and other issues.
00:17:48
People— in certain social
circles, people would feel
00:17:50
ridiculous arguing for things
that they could easily have
00:17:52
argued for 10 years ago.
00:17:55
So, you obviously— your— your
book has been widely read and
00:17:59
widely praised. What's the
best critique you've seen of
00:18:05
your— of your position?
00:18:08
Well, one critique is that I'm
pretty critical of liberals. And
00:18:14
I'm not critical enough of
conservatives. And I think
00:18:16
that's true. When I wrote the
book, because I had been
00:18:20
thinking so much about what
liberals don't see about
00:18:22
conservatives, that's sort of
what I specialized in. So I
00:18:25
really tried to help liberal— and
no— and the only people I meet
00:18:27
are liberals. And the people
that mostly read these books are
00:18:29
liberal. So I was kind of
addressing liberals. And I
00:18:33
should have said some of the
things where I think
00:18:35
conservatives are wrong. One of
the main ones is that while
00:18:41
liberals, I think are too quick
to try to take apart the law of
00:18:44
karma, liberals kind of want to
stop bad behavior from leading
00:18:49
to bad consequences. And that's
a bad thing to do. Society
00:18:51
decays when you don't have swift
punishment. But conservatives
00:18:55
act as though the law of karma
is actually true. That is,
00:18:59
people who are suffering now are
suffering because of something
00:19:01
they did in the past. And that
is sometimes true. Liberals have
00:19:04
a complete ban on blaming the
victim, which means they can't
00:19:07
figure out a lot of— a lot of
social facts. But conservatives
00:19:10
I think are a little too quick to
blame victims, and to not see
00:19:14
how a disadvantage can
accumulate and lead to a
00:19:17
downward spiral. So I do wish I
had been more even-handed in my
00:19:21
criticism and praise of both
sides. I do praise both sides.
00:19:24
So the concept of deservingness
is a— plays a pivotal role here in—
00:19:28
- Absolutely. -— in producing ideological
divergence. And you're
00:19:34
suggesting that conservatives
believe too much in the concept
00:19:39
of deservingness and liberals
not enough? Or— -Deservingness
00:19:42
going forward—
- Split the difference? - No. Deservingness
00:19:45
going forward is— is a great
idea. A lot of people realize
00:19:48
this, as I did, when you become a
parent. You know, of course, I
00:19:51
will never spank my child. But
you want to be loving and
00:19:55
gentle. And you discover that
you get a bratty kid. And what my
00:20:00
wife and I found very quickly
was when we use the 1-2-3 magic
00:20:03
method, which is when he's
misbehaving, you say that's one,
00:20:06
that's two, that's three,
timeout. Automatic, quick, rapid
00:20:10
punishment— doesn't have to be
severe. Rapid punishment, boy do
00:20:13
you get behavior change. And a
lot of our liberal friends are
00:20:16
trying to reason with the kids.
They don't want to impose power,
00:20:19
they don't want to punish, they
said, "Was that a wise choice or
00:20:22
an unwise choice?" So I think
over and over again,
00:20:26
conservatives stand up for
equity. That is, if you do
00:20:28
something bad, you should be
punished. If you do something
00:20:31
good, you should be rewarded. In
fact, I show some signs in the
00:20:35
book and in my talks, a sign from
the Tea Party, "Stop punishing
00:20:39
success, stop rewarding failure."
That's about as direct a plea
00:20:43
for the law of karma as you
could have. Conservatives— I'm sorry.
00:20:47
Liberals, in contrast— I have a
sign, "Tax the wealthy, fair and
00:20:50
square. How can they let us go
hungry?" See, if there are people
00:20:54
who are hungry, well, then, of
course, the rich should pay more
00:20:56
taxes, we need to be equal." So
liberals value equality. And if
00:21:01
you push for equality, that
often requires you to violate
00:21:04
equity. And we see that in
affirmative action, we see that
00:21:07
in Title Nine, which mandates
almost equal outcomes in sports,
00:21:11
so that all of our schools are
desperate to try to get women
00:21:14
into sports, and they're trying
to push men out. They don't have
00:21:16
enough money to pay for the men.
So we don't have equal
00:21:18
access to sports in a lot of our
schools, because Title Nine is
00:21:20
an effort to get equality of
outcomes. Conservatives are
00:21:23
livid about that. And liberals
think, "Oh, well, why isn't there
00:21:26
equality of outcome? It must
still be sexism."
00:21:29
So you're able to weave together
these conflicting strands of
00:21:32
argument in a very sophisticated,
integratively complex way. How—
00:21:37
but most people don't think that
way. Right?
00:21:41
If you're a partisan, then you
cannot think that way. The press
00:21:44
secretary tends not to say,
"Well, on the one hand, the
00:21:47
Republicans are right about
this, but the Democrats are
00:21:49
right about that." If he does
that, he's fired. So if you're
00:21:53
partisan, you cannot think in an
integrative— that's what your
00:21:56
research shows. The further you
are out to the extremes, the
00:21:58
lower integrative complexity
tends to go on most issues. And
00:22:04
most Americans are not that
extreme. Most Americans will put
00:22:07
themselves on one side or the
other. But they're not that
00:22:09
extreme. Our political life is
dominated by more extreme
00:22:12
elements, bolstered by the
media, which has a business
00:22:15
model that also does not cater
to integrative complexity. So
00:22:19
we're bathed in arguments from
people who are not integratively
00:22:22
complex. I think it takes some
doing, some seeking, some effort
00:22:26
to find ideas on— on the other
side. And when you do, I mean,
00:22:30
that, to me, has been the great
enlightenment. I'm very familiar
00:22:34
with liberal ideas. I've been
reading them my whole life. When
00:22:36
I started reading conservative
ideas about social order, about
00:22:40
the value of tradition, about how
easy to to lose social order,
00:22:44
they really struck me as a
revelation. And same with
00:22:47
libertarian ideas. For example,
here's— this is such a simple
00:22:50
formulation I heard the other
day. Libertarian philosopher
00:22:53
David Schmitz said, "A free
market society is a giant game
00:22:57
in which you win by making other
people better off." And that was
00:23:02
such a simple and clear
description of the way
00:23:05
libertarians see the free market,
and how basically, free markets
00:23:08
really do encourage us all to
create something that other
00:23:10
people want and will pay money
for. And then we're all better
00:23:12
off because of it.
00:23:14
So insofar as you believe the
country would be better off,
00:23:17
we'd be better off both as
individuals and as a society if
00:23:20
more people could think in these
more integratively complex ways.
00:23:25
What specific things can be done
educationally and politically
00:23:31
to induce that so you get— get—
get people to socialize more
00:23:34
with each other in Congress is
one thing. You've had other
00:23:37
other suggestions? Could we— I
think, as we conclude, it would
00:23:40
be useful to work through the
most specific suggestions you
00:23:44
have for how do we can get out
of this quicksand.
00:23:48
Let's look at, what can we do as
individuals and in education.
00:23:52
There's a line from one
Shakespeare play, "First kill all
00:23:54
the lawyers." That's not what I'm
recommending. It's first kill
00:23:57
all the math classes beyond
algebra. Stop wasting so much of
00:24:00
our students' time learning math.
It's not useful, it's not
00:24:03
helpful. Teach them more civics,
and in those civics classes,
00:24:07
teach them the history of
liberalism, conservatism, teach
00:24:10
them ideological history, make
the— get them prepared to treat
00:24:13
these long idea— long
intellectual traditions with
00:24:16
respect. Second, teach some
statistics. Cut the calculus. I
00:24:20
mean, sure, if students want to
take it, fine. But everybody
00:24:24
should learn statistics. That
actually helps you understand
00:24:26
the data that's coming in from
the social sciences and other
00:24:29
places. So even in high school,
we can do a lot more to prepare
00:24:32
our students for citizenship,
not for 19th century notions of
00:24:36
an exercised brain that can do
math and Greek. In our
00:24:41
universities, it would be nice
if we could have more open,
00:24:44
honest debate, and be a little
less sensitive about people
00:24:47
claiming hurt feelings. I think
our universities should be
00:24:50
places of debate and discussion.
And our culture is so
00:24:54
litigious and has fostered the
idea that everybody has a right
00:24:57
to not have their feelings hurt.
This is a bad thing. This means
00:25:01
we never get to talk with people
who differ from us, we run away
00:25:03
from such discussions. So
there's a lot we could do to
00:25:07
help our thinking. But I don't
think we— we don't need to all
00:25:11
become more integratively
complex to get better outcomes.
00:25:14
Our political institutions could
put together simple-minded
00:25:17
thinkers in ways that get
integrated with complex
00:25:19
outcomes, as long as they don't
demonize. So that to me is the
00:25:23
key. I'm not out to change
people's minds and move everybody
00:25:26
to the center. I'm out to make
people stop demonizing the other
00:25:29
side. To say, "I disagree with
you." You know, "You and I
00:25:33
disagree about the right way to
help the poor," or whatever the
00:25:35
issue is, or the environment.
"But I see that you have ideas
00:25:41
that draw on certain— your side
is sensitive to certain threats
00:25:46
that my side doesn't see
very well." So I would urge— urge
00:25:49
viewers to go to Asteroids
club.org, the website I started, that
00:25:55
helps people see that each side
perceives asteroids coming
00:25:58
towards the Earth that the other
side just has its head in the
00:26:00
sand, it won't even acknowledge.
So I think there is a lot that
00:26:04
we can do to stop demonizing,
and come to at least respect our
00:26:08
intellectual differences.
- Thank you.
00:26:10
Thank you so much, John,
for joining us. The book is <i>The</i>
00:26:13
<i>Righteous Mind: Why Good People
are Divided By Politics and</i>
00:26:16
<i>Religion</i>. It's been great
talking with you and
00:26:20
we wish you well.
00:26:22
Thanks so much, Phil.
