00:00:15
our guest today is muhammad yunus
00:00:18
winner of the 2006 nobel peace prize and
00:00:21
founder of the micro credit movement
00:00:23
based on the idea of making very small
00:00:25
loans to the world's poorest people
00:00:27
thereby giving them the opportunity to
00:00:29
raise themselves
00:00:30
and their families out of poverty thank
00:00:33
you for joining us
00:00:34
thank you people often associate good
00:00:36
works and worthwhile causes with
00:00:38
non-profit institutions
00:00:40
but you have emphasized that your model
00:00:42
is a for-profit one not a non-profit one
00:00:45
can you briefly describe that model and
00:00:47
tell us why the distinction is so
00:00:48
important to you
00:00:50
well that's how we became i mean we are
00:00:52
not trying to create a
00:00:53
non-profit that was not our intention my
00:00:56
intention was to
00:00:58
persuade the bankers to lend money to
00:01:01
the poor people
00:01:02
so my struggle always with the bankers
00:01:04
so
00:01:05
initially i offered myself as a
00:01:07
guarantor
00:01:08
and then took the money from the bank
00:01:10
and gave it to people
00:01:12
so it was an extension of banks activity
00:01:15
when we saw that it's working well and
00:01:17
the banks were not as enthusiastic as we
00:01:19
were
00:01:20
we thought maybe we should have a
00:01:21
separate bank created for this purpose
00:01:24
and finally we did that in 1983 called
00:01:27
grameen bank or a village bank
00:01:29
so we became a bank because it is a
00:01:31
bank's activity
00:01:33
we lend money to the poor people and
00:01:35
people sometimes
00:01:37
refer to us as an ngo so we have to
00:01:40
explain that we are not an ngo it's not
00:01:42
that we are
00:01:43
saying belittling ngo that they are not
00:01:45
good i'm good it's not like that
00:01:48
simply stating a fact that people get
00:01:50
confused because we work with the poor
00:01:51
people
00:01:52
then it must be an ngo he said no we are
00:01:54
a bank and it's owned by the poor people
00:01:57
uh so the owners of the bank are the
00:01:58
borrowers of the bank
00:02:00
so that's the distinction that we want
00:02:01
to make we clarify what we are
00:02:04
well obviously grameen bank has grown
00:02:06
dramatically over the
00:02:07
since the time that you founded it i've
00:02:10
read that you now have operations in
00:02:11
more than 100 countries
00:02:14
and you have 7 million borrowers in
00:02:16
bangladesh alone
00:02:19
but your success with grameen has led to
00:02:22
a lot of other
00:02:24
people entering the micro credit area
00:02:26
some of them are commercial banks
00:02:28
some are funded by venture capitalists
00:02:31
how has that changed the micro credit
00:02:33
model and can you explain
00:02:35
you know some of the issues that have
00:02:36
come up as a result of that yeah
00:02:38
just a little clarification we
00:02:41
work or at least the grameen idea has
00:02:45
been working in almost
00:02:46
all the countries of the world so it's
00:02:48
now not right to say a hundred countries
00:02:51
uh they're at microgravity so you're
00:02:52
even more successful
00:02:54
at least the idea has spread that
00:02:56
whether they are big or
00:02:57
small or successful or not that there
00:03:00
are presences
00:03:01
presence in all those countries and
00:03:04
right now we are
00:03:05
nearly eight million borrowers within
00:03:07
grameen bank itself
00:03:09
so that way grameen bank also has
00:03:11
expanded within
00:03:13
bangladesh yes lots of organizations
00:03:16
have come
00:03:17
come in and we have encouraged them to
00:03:19
come in and to do the job
00:03:21
ngos have done that in others than that
00:03:24
when the world becomes popular the idea
00:03:27
becomes popular
00:03:28
many people want to join those kind of
00:03:30
things so the word microcredit became
00:03:32
very popular microfinance became very
00:03:34
popular
00:03:35
and those were not using these words
00:03:38
before suddenly they started using it
00:03:40
like
00:03:40
agricultural banks around the world
00:03:42
saying that we do microcredit
00:03:45
never said that before so whatever they
00:03:48
do whether they are
00:03:49
micro credit or not this is a debatable
00:03:52
subject because
00:03:53
uh we define micro credit micro finance
00:03:55
in a certain way like this is a credit
00:03:58
and a financial service
00:03:59
to the poorest people without collateral
00:04:02
without guarantee uh and without any
00:04:05
lawyers
00:04:06
in the system so that has to be very
00:04:09
clear in our
00:04:10
work before we call it micro micro
00:04:12
credit or microfinance
00:04:14
and this is focused more on women
00:04:16
poorest women
00:04:17
so these are the aspects if you look at
00:04:20
the agricultural banks for example
00:04:22
most of the agricultural banks around
00:04:23
the world require collateral
00:04:25
you have to bring your land records or
00:04:27
whatever it is
00:04:29
similarly savings and loan association
00:04:31
saying that we do microcredit
00:04:32
cooperatives are saying we do micro
00:04:34
credit uh those who are
00:04:37
giving agricultural loans commercial
00:04:39
banks are saying we are
00:04:41
doing microcredit so we need to
00:04:44
kind of clarify what is microcredit
00:04:48
in its pure form rather than bring
00:04:50
everything else
00:04:52
and microcredit is always given to
00:04:55
for income generating activity so
00:04:58
whatever money you are taking you're
00:05:00
investing it
00:05:02
to create an income source for yourself
00:05:05
there are many programs which give loans
00:05:07
for buying
00:05:08
consumer goods and they say we are doing
00:05:10
micro credit they are giving money to
00:05:12
buy refrigerator or buy
00:05:14
television we say we do micro credit we
00:05:16
say no sorry that's not microcurrent
00:05:19
so we have to sort this out and another
00:05:21
aspect that i want to draw attention to
00:05:23
there are many
00:05:24
microcredit programs going around and
00:05:28
they're advertising themselves saying oh
00:05:30
this is a great opportunity to make
00:05:32
money
00:05:33
there's a huge big field out there a lot
00:05:35
of people
00:05:36
and you give money and you make a lot of
00:05:38
money and they
00:05:40
encourage people who want to make money
00:05:42
to join in and do that
00:05:44
again we say look our purpose is not to
00:05:48
excite people about making money and
00:05:51
getting excited
00:05:52
about that our purpose is to help people
00:05:54
get out of poverty
00:05:55
so everything you do uh the focus is not
00:05:58
on
00:05:59
profit marketing focus is on helping
00:06:01
people to get out of poverty
00:06:03
uh so those who are taking this as an
00:06:05
opportunity to make money
00:06:07
have to uh raise their interest rate to
00:06:10
the extent that they make a lot of money
00:06:12
so interest rate issue becomes a
00:06:13
sensitive issue
00:06:15
we are saying interest rates should be
00:06:17
kept down as low as possible preferably
00:06:20
to cover cost
00:06:21
and if you want to make a little profit
00:06:23
on top of it it should be very modest
00:06:25
profit
00:06:26
so that it doesn't look like this was
00:06:28
your
00:06:29
intention so those who are doing that
00:06:32
using microcredit microfinance uh for uh
00:06:36
making a lot of money uh we kept saying
00:06:39
that these are not microcredit in the
00:06:40
sense that we do it
00:06:42
because we came here to fight out the
00:06:44
loan sharks
00:06:46
not become loan shots ourselves so this
00:06:48
is they're
00:06:49
moving into the direction of loan sharks
00:06:51
so we want to
00:06:52
disassociate disassociate ourselves from
00:06:54
them so how do you tackle that does
00:06:57
some regulation is that some regulation
00:06:59
required and what kind of regulation
00:07:02
should there be within bangladesh we
00:07:04
have been
00:07:05
talking about regulation we have created
00:07:07
a within bangladesh government has
00:07:09
created a
00:07:10
microgrid regulatory authority with our
00:07:13
suggestions they have done that
00:07:15
so they will be looking into the
00:07:16
interest rate issue transparency issue
00:07:19
many people quote their interest rate in
00:07:22
many many
00:07:23
ways hiding the actual fact how much
00:07:25
they are charging
00:07:26
we said it has to be very transparent
00:07:29
all interest
00:07:30
rates should be expressed in a
00:07:31
standardized form
00:07:33
so that we can compare a and b who
00:07:35
charges more or not
00:07:37
or less this is something that they have
00:07:39
to clarify right away
00:07:41
and also to keep the interest rate as
00:07:43
low as possible this is
00:07:44
an encouragement regulatory authority
00:07:46
should be put again
00:07:47
and for personally i have been promoting
00:07:50
the idea that true macro of credit
00:07:53
interest rates should be within a
00:07:54
particular range i said cost of fund at
00:07:57
the market
00:07:58
price plus 10 this is the green zone of
00:08:02
micro credit interest rate
00:08:03
you are legitimate you are doing
00:08:05
excellent work if it is cost of fund at
00:08:07
the market price
00:08:08
plus 10 to 15 percent we say your
00:08:11
interest rate is in the yellow zone
00:08:13
you're on the high side but still will
00:08:14
consider your genuine microcredit
00:08:16
program and we encourage you to
00:08:18
push yourself back into the green zone
00:08:21
and it's the other one the cost of fund
00:08:24
at the
00:08:24
market price plus 15 and above
00:08:28
then we say you're in the red zone
00:08:30
meaning that you are too high and you
00:08:31
are on the
00:08:32
wrong side of micro credit you are
00:08:34
moving into the loan shark zone
00:08:36
you have spoken about the downside of a
00:08:38
global globalized economy referring to
00:08:40
it during the nobel peace prize ceremony
00:08:42
in oslo as
00:08:43
quote a dangerous free-for-all highway
00:08:46
whose lanes will be taken over by the
00:08:48
giant trucks from powerful economies
00:08:51
even as bangladeshi rickshaws will be
00:08:53
thrown off the highway
00:08:54
end quote i'm assuming you're referring
00:08:56
to the one-dimensional profit motive
00:08:58
of these giant trucks that focus more on
00:09:01
money than on social good
00:09:03
but how do you think how do you think a
00:09:06
scenario
00:09:07
could could realistically be averted a
00:09:09
global scenario
00:09:10
and in fact isn't that somewhat
00:09:12
desirable
00:09:13
uh i was giving an image that
00:09:16
globalization is like a
00:09:19
multi-lane highway all the products are
00:09:22
moving back and forth in many directions
00:09:24
and everybody on the road carrying their
00:09:26
merchandise
00:09:28
and giving the idea that big countries
00:09:30
big economies rich economies will have
00:09:32
more
00:09:33
merchandise to carry big trucks to carry
00:09:35
and very powerful and take over the
00:09:36
lanes
00:09:37
and the small countries don't have space
00:09:40
for themselves because it's all taken
00:09:42
over by the big trucks and the big
00:09:43
companies
00:09:45
so i said if that image fits into the
00:09:47
picture
00:09:48
then we should have traffic rules so
00:09:51
that
00:09:52
little company and the little country
00:09:55
little economy have their
00:09:57
safe lanes where they're slow moving
00:09:59
their carry little thing
00:10:00
and very fragile but they move safely
00:10:04
uh so the the big trucks don't take over
00:10:06
everything
00:10:07
so the and i'm saying that if we accept
00:10:09
the traffic rules
00:10:10
idea then we'll need traffic police so
00:10:13
that these rules are obeyed
00:10:15
and the idea is to have a traffic
00:10:17
authority so that somebody has to say
00:10:20
this is the rules of globalization that
00:10:23
if you are a big company you cannot come
00:10:24
to a weak economy and say i take over
00:10:26
the whole economy they can because they
00:10:28
have the money power
00:10:29
so that will be wrong globalization in
00:10:32
globalization both sides must be the
00:10:34
winner
00:10:36
and the whatever gain in the trade takes
00:10:38
place it should be shared equitably
00:10:41
just because i have the power i take out
00:10:44
out of 100 i take 99.9 and give you 0.1
00:10:47
percent
00:10:47
and say this is globalization i don't
00:10:49
think that will be tenable that will be
00:10:51
sustainable
00:10:52
so we have to agree how much you should
00:10:54
get and how much i should get
00:10:56
although i could have taken over
00:10:57
everything but by agreed
00:11:00
principles we don't do that we give you
00:11:03
some and we keep some
00:11:04
and what that participation would be how
00:11:07
division would be
00:11:08
that would be the traffic police or the
00:11:10
traffic authority will decide
00:11:12
that this is how we should do that
00:11:14
otherwise globalization will become
00:11:16
i suggested that it will be an economic
00:11:18
imperialism
00:11:20
that big economy has taken over the
00:11:22
small economies
00:11:23
well one effect we see of globalization
00:11:25
right now is what's happening
00:11:27
happening in the world banking industry
00:11:29
and why i find that very
00:11:31
interesting is because if you were to
00:11:32
look at grameen's own borrowers
00:11:35
they're not just the subprime or are
00:11:37
considered subprime but or even the sub
00:11:39
subprime
00:11:40
in spite of that growing repayment rates
00:11:44
are 99 or so and
00:11:48
you uh have never required a bailout
00:11:51
uh from that perspective i wonder how
00:11:53
you see
00:11:54
this global banking crisis and what
00:11:56
advice would you give
00:11:58
to the ceos of institutions like
00:12:00
citibank or bank of america
00:12:02
about what they could do to salvage
00:12:04
their operations
00:12:05
it's a paradoxical situation right now
00:12:08
because
00:12:09
back 33 years back when i was trying to
00:12:12
start this program in a tiny village
00:12:14
with a few people
00:12:16
and arguing with the bankers that this
00:12:18
would be a good idea to
00:12:20
give loans to the poor people their
00:12:22
argument was that
00:12:23
poor people are not credit worthy they
00:12:25
will never pay back and so on
00:12:27
so today 33 years later you can ask the
00:12:30
same question who is creditworthy
00:12:32
the answer obviously will be very
00:12:34
different because
00:12:35
is the poor who turned out to be the
00:12:38
better credit worthy than the
00:12:39
other category of people because the
00:12:42
programs micro credit programs all over
00:12:44
the world
00:12:46
still function very well still their
00:12:48
repayment is very high
00:12:49
whereas the big banks and their big
00:12:53
lending operations are in a situation of
00:12:55
collapse
00:12:56
is falling down so
00:13:00
with this experience kind of
00:13:02
contradictory
00:13:03
experience that we have now we have to
00:13:07
we have no other way but to redesign the
00:13:09
whole system
00:13:11
recognizing the fact the strength in
00:13:13
this
00:13:14
non-collateralized loans for the poor
00:13:16
people
00:13:17
and the weakness in the cholera right
00:13:19
along for the rich people
00:13:20
so we have to found find a ground where
00:13:23
we can have a
00:13:24
an inclusive financial system where
00:13:26
nobody will be
00:13:27
thrown out of the system uh not the
00:13:29
poorest person not the homeless person
00:13:32
or a beggar person nobody
00:13:34
should be thrown out they can handle
00:13:36
they have already
00:13:37
shown examples so on and created a
00:13:40
long-term credit um record that what
00:13:43
they have done
00:13:45
so this is one lesson from this to
00:13:47
redesign the financial system
00:13:50
another point i would like to make that
00:13:53
this global crisis financial crisis
00:13:56
uh is worst in our lifetime
00:13:59
when the whole world is going through it
00:14:02
while we look at the crisis part of it
00:14:04
we forget
00:14:04
this is also the greatest opportunity
00:14:08
when the system is not working that's
00:14:10
the time you
00:14:11
unpack it and redesign it so that not
00:14:14
only
00:14:15
it works it works better than ever
00:14:18
before
00:14:19
uh unless we do that we'll be committing
00:14:21
a big mistake
00:14:23
so i i emphasize on the opportunity part
00:14:25
of it
00:14:26
while the crisis will take its time we
00:14:29
take its course to get or
00:14:30
get through it but we should be focusing
00:14:33
attention
00:14:34
and then start redesigning piece by
00:14:37
piece
00:14:38
where it needs to be fixed so that we
00:14:40
don't have the same old system
00:14:42
that we had before what qualities does
00:14:44
one need to lead a microfinance
00:14:46
institution and how are these different
00:14:48
from the qualities needed for another
00:14:49
type of organization
00:14:51
uh one idea i was just mentioning that
00:14:54
we came
00:14:55
from the direction where we wanted to
00:14:58
bring financial services to the poor
00:15:00
people
00:15:01
to help them generate income for
00:15:03
themselves and gradually move out of
00:15:05
poverty by doing that
00:15:06
build confidence build experience and
00:15:09
step by step
00:15:11
take care of themselves and see that
00:15:13
they can move on
00:15:14
and get out of poverty so we would like
00:15:17
to keep microcredit in that fashion
00:15:20
in that mood not profit maximization
00:15:23
mode
00:15:23
because then you are not looking at
00:15:25
people's condition you are looking at
00:15:27
your own condition
00:15:28
so you want to take out as much possible
00:15:30
as possible
00:15:32
to improve your financial strength and
00:15:34
so on
00:15:35
so that is i think number one
00:15:37
requirement for microcurrent that you
00:15:39
have the right
00:15:40
kind of attitude and right kind of mood
00:15:42
when you get involved with it
00:15:44
that here i have come to use my talent
00:15:46
my creativity my management skill
00:15:49
to help people get out of poverty uh
00:15:52
without losing money
00:15:54
losing money pushes you into another
00:15:56
direction it becomes
00:15:58
uh to it pushes into itself into the
00:16:00
charitable
00:16:02
kind of programs micro credit is not a
00:16:04
charity program
00:16:05
micro credit is a business program but
00:16:08
business
00:16:08
with a social purpose and in a certain
00:16:12
separate way i've called it a social
00:16:14
business and defined it in a very clear
00:16:16
terms what a social business like
00:16:18
so ideally i would like my credit to be
00:16:20
a social business
00:16:21
where profit is zero for the person who
00:16:23
has invested
00:16:24
but the company can make profit profit
00:16:26
stays with the company
00:16:28
with the social objective in this case
00:16:29
the social objective will be to help
00:16:31
people get out of poverty
00:16:32
but but in terms of individual
00:16:34
leadership skills or
00:16:35
organizational skills how do you nurture
00:16:37
these within individuals
00:16:39
in sacrament bank we didn't come in bank
00:16:43
we just recruit people and
00:16:47
let them learn by doing as apprentices
00:16:50
with other
00:16:51
older persons in the branches so it's
00:16:54
not a classroom training which makes all
00:16:56
the difference
00:16:56
classroom training is a very small part
00:16:58
of our training we simply introduce what
00:17:01
we do
00:17:01
and then let them figure out what how it
00:17:04
is done and so on
00:17:05
when they join brahmin bank for them as
00:17:08
just a job
00:17:09
they are looking for job not many jobs
00:17:12
are available
00:17:13
they got the job they're very happy they
00:17:14
got the job they think now on
00:17:17
i get i work and i get my salary so the
00:17:20
intention of helping poor and all those
00:17:22
things
00:17:23
was not part of that job but once you
00:17:26
start working with the poor people and
00:17:28
get to know the system
00:17:29
get to know the objectives of the system
00:17:32
and gradually you are
00:17:33
taken by it and more and more you feel
00:17:37
inspired by it and all these ideas that
00:17:40
yes
00:17:41
my work helps people excites them
00:17:44
it's a wonderful experience to be able
00:17:47
to touch other people's life
00:17:49
it's almost intoxicating experience once
00:17:52
you have it
00:17:53
you cannot get away from it you want to
00:17:55
have it more because you see
00:17:57
things are happening in people's life
00:17:59
their children going to school the kid
00:18:01
you saw a little kid
00:18:02
running around in the village now you
00:18:05
see
00:18:05
he or she is in school and doing very
00:18:08
well and
00:18:09
talking about what he wants to be what
00:18:11
he wants to be
00:18:13
and you remember your own childhood that
00:18:15
how you went through and how difficult
00:18:17
it was for you now these kids
00:18:19
are lucky kids they could have been they
00:18:22
they are in school and some of their
00:18:24
older
00:18:25
students are now going to higher
00:18:27
education and government bank gives them
00:18:29
education loans and you say oh nobody
00:18:32
gave me an education loan
00:18:33
and my education finished after high
00:18:36
school i couldn't
00:18:37
proceed any further only job i could get
00:18:40
is this one
00:18:41
but i'm happy through my job i'm helping
00:18:43
other kids
00:18:44
to go to higher education becoming
00:18:46
doctors engineers and
00:18:47
university professors and so on so forth
00:18:49
and that excites them that yes
00:18:51
my service is useful one of the really
00:18:54
interesting aspects of grameen's
00:18:56
operations is
00:18:57
the way you have been able to extend the
00:18:59
concept of
00:19:00
microfinance beyond just credit into
00:19:03
areas such as health insurance
00:19:05
i wonder if you could explain some of
00:19:08
those activities
00:19:09
and how they have evolved what some of
00:19:11
your challenges have been
00:19:14
we do not consider macro insurance or
00:19:18
health insurance as outside the
00:19:19
financial service so we take it as a
00:19:21
part of our activity as a bank's
00:19:22
activity
00:19:24
we started with giving credit at the
00:19:26
same time taking savings so it's
00:19:28
always together savings and credit
00:19:31
formed our
00:19:32
basic tool and then we encourage them to
00:19:35
go into other directions about the
00:19:36
health and other issues
00:19:38
and gradually we introduced insurance
00:19:40
programs
00:19:42
life insurance it was our first
00:19:43
insurance program that we did and the
00:19:45
loan insurance that we did
00:19:47
and then we introduced the health
00:19:48
insurance program and we saw that we can
00:19:51
give the health
00:19:52
insurance facility but how do we ensure
00:19:54
they get the health service
00:19:55
because the existing health service is
00:19:57
not a very reliable health service
00:19:59
we started creating uh health services
00:20:02
through a separate company we created
00:20:03
called grameen colon
00:20:05
wellbeing through that we started
00:20:08
setting up
00:20:09
clinics in the villages with the
00:20:12
professional doctor on the top of the
00:20:14
clinic and then
00:20:15
paramedics and the health workers with
00:20:17
the pathological lab
00:20:18
attached to it so that you don't have to
00:20:20
go to the city for simple
00:20:22
pathological testings and so on so
00:20:23
everything is self-contained
00:20:25
and today we run about 51 such clinics
00:20:29
and on an average they make about 93
00:20:32
of the cost they cover another seven
00:20:35
percent we can cover
00:20:36
easily if we could retain the doctors in
00:20:38
this clinics
00:20:39
that became a big problem doctors don't
00:20:41
want to stay in the village the way
00:20:43
uh the kind of clinics that we operate
00:20:46
in the villages
00:20:47
so most of the time almost half or one
00:20:50
third of the doctors are missing
00:20:52
so that's why our popularity in the area
00:20:56
is not as high as it should have been
00:20:58
so now we are trying to redesign it do
00:21:01
it in a
00:21:02
different way trying to set up
00:21:05
a program at the village level what we
00:21:08
call grameen
00:21:08
health management centers where our
00:21:11
focus would be on prevention
00:21:13
our focus is the healthy people first
00:21:16
and then
00:21:17
to the sick people and the sick people
00:21:19
we say
00:21:20
this is where we do the early detection
00:21:23
and early treatment without relying on
00:21:27
the doctors in the village
00:21:28
so doctor will be in the city wherever
00:21:30
they are we are trying to link the
00:21:32
doctor
00:21:32
and the patients through information
00:21:34
technology mobile phone in bangladesh is
00:21:37
everywhere like many other countries now
00:21:38
mobile phone is a
00:21:40
common phenomenon even in the poor
00:21:41
families you'll see mobile phones very
00:21:43
cheap
00:21:44
so what we're doing and these phones are
00:21:46
internet enabled phones it also carries
00:21:48
the internet service so
00:21:50
for internet service you don't have to
00:21:51
worry every single
00:21:53
piece of space within bangladesh
00:21:57
can receive internet services
00:22:00
through the mobile phone so we want to
00:22:03
do the diagnostics and
00:22:04
plug it into a mobile phone transmit all
00:22:07
the images
00:22:08
and all the data to the specialist
00:22:10
doctor in the city
00:22:12
who can analyze it and tell you what the
00:22:14
problem is and talk to the patient on
00:22:16
the
00:22:17
mobile phone and some intermediary young
00:22:20
girl who can go go between the patients
00:22:23
and the doctors to carry on all these
00:22:25
services
00:22:26
so this is the new idea that we are
00:22:28
promoting
00:22:29
and the health insurance is a very
00:22:31
popular one i must say
00:22:32
provided we can guarantee that they get
00:22:34
the services we promised
00:22:37
is there a plan to extend this further
00:22:38
with google
00:22:40
we have been discussing with many
00:22:41
partners already we have created a
00:22:44
social business with
00:22:45
intel corporation it's called grameen
00:22:47
intel company in bangladesh
00:22:49
and through that company we are bringing
00:22:51
mobile phone services in the villages
00:22:53
with healthcare
00:22:55
software included into it their initial
00:22:58
one that we are doing with that is a
00:23:00
series of questions that we
00:23:01
place before the pregnant mothers and
00:23:04
the questions are designed in such a way
00:23:06
by evaluating the answers
00:23:08
the doctors can tell you whether she has
00:23:11
a risky pregnancy
00:23:13
say immediately you have a first choice
00:23:16
that
00:23:16
we have screened off one risky pregnancy
00:23:20
then you can concentrate on that one and
00:23:22
gradually we'll be moving into ultrasono
00:23:24
bring the ultrasono in the
00:23:26
family uh the house to do the image of
00:23:29
the
00:23:29
baby inside the home and transmit it to
00:23:32
the
00:23:33
doctor and the doctor can tell can fully
00:23:35
confirm it that yes
00:23:37
she has a problem and we can zoom in to
00:23:40
that particular patient and so on
00:23:41
so we'll be we'll be discussing with
00:23:43
other companies like
00:23:45
google uh i'll be in this trip i'll be
00:23:48
meeting the google people to talk about
00:23:50
it one of the idea that i'll be
00:23:52
discussing with them is to how to
00:23:54
capture all the patient data
00:23:56
simultaneously as we meet the people
00:23:58
talk to people all these
00:24:00
comes in a way that you can put in a
00:24:03
central server
00:24:04
through google and you have a global
00:24:07
patient data available and you can
00:24:10
analyze them you can
00:24:11
you can find out the incidence of each
00:24:14
diseases
00:24:15
how the treatment is working which
00:24:17
treatment is working how they are
00:24:18
improving and so on
00:24:19
lots of information can come out of that
00:24:21
there are many ways
00:24:22
you can do that very simple now the
00:24:24
technology is available
00:24:26
uh it can be almost costless
00:24:29
but at the same time extremely valuable
00:24:31
information about the healthcare
00:24:33
so we want to see excite google and
00:24:35
others to
00:24:36
get involved google already has a lot of
00:24:38
healthcare
00:24:40
related programs but we are trying to
00:24:41
see how to extend the service into the
00:24:44
area that we
00:24:45
face and collaborate with them
00:24:48
by basing your model on getting funds
00:24:50
from the borrowers
00:24:51
rather than getting say investment money
00:24:53
from international investors
00:24:56
does that give you enough money to to
00:24:58
make as many loans offer as many
00:25:00
services
00:25:00
as you could or do you do you think that
00:25:04
outside money actually could play a role
00:25:06
as long as it doesn't dilute the primary
00:25:08
focus which is
00:25:09
social good and not making money
00:25:13
within coming bank we are allowed to
00:25:15
take deposits from everybody
00:25:18
it's not related limited to the
00:25:19
borrowers only
00:25:21
it's just like a bank we can take
00:25:24
anybody's
00:25:24
deposits so that's open with incoming
00:25:28
each of our branch is required to
00:25:31
make enough deposit mobilize enough
00:25:33
deposit
00:25:34
to carry out all the lending they do so
00:25:37
that
00:25:38
branches don't have to borrow from the
00:25:40
head office don't have to borrow from
00:25:41
another branch
00:25:42
so they are self sufficient with their
00:25:44
money on top of it we encourage them to
00:25:47
build up
00:25:48
enough cushion of safe
00:25:51
reserves of the deposits because of the
00:25:54
problem of disasters we have very
00:25:57
frequent disasters
00:25:58
at time of disasters you can't get your
00:26:00
money back
00:26:01
but you need to lend money more money
00:26:03
than you did before
00:26:04
to get people out of the problem they
00:26:06
have faced
00:26:07
so we want to build up that cushion
00:26:10
usually we recommend at least
00:26:11
uh 30 and 33
00:26:14
reserves should be kept within that
00:26:16
system
00:26:18
today we have more than 30 percent
00:26:20
reserve
00:26:21
37 is up in our all our
00:26:24
in the whole of grameen bank some
00:26:27
branches have more some branches have
00:26:28
less but the
00:26:29
average of 37 percent we have no problem
00:26:33
with the deposits
00:26:34
we have enough deposits in that so we
00:26:36
the question of borrowing from
00:26:38
outside never occurred to us because we
00:26:41
have enough money and
00:26:42
i keep telling people that um literally
00:26:45
no matter where we live we live in an
00:26:48
ocean of money
00:26:51
but the problem is the poor people
00:26:53
cannot take a seat out of it
00:26:56
that's the problem shortage of money is
00:26:58
not there so people have plenty of money
00:26:59
they put in the bank
00:27:01
people will be very happy to the branch
00:27:03
came near their home because villages
00:27:05
don't
00:27:06
have branches of banks banks are all
00:27:09
concentrated in the cities
00:27:11
so if they have to put the money in the
00:27:14
bank they have to go to the city and the
00:27:15
town
00:27:16
where the banks exist bank brands exist
00:27:19
so grammy bank works
00:27:20
in the villages so it's a very
00:27:22
convenient place people
00:27:24
withdraw their money from the cities put
00:27:26
it there near home because it's handy
00:27:27
they can go anywhere anytime they go
00:27:29
one they want to pick up the money so we
00:27:31
have enough of that money and we
00:27:33
do not see any reason that it will ever
00:27:36
dry out
00:27:38
having said that what is the amount
00:27:42
of deposit coming from the borrower
00:27:44
themselves
00:27:46
we lend out over 100 million dollars a
00:27:49
month
00:27:50
through grameen bank today out of that
00:27:53
money
00:27:54
uh nearly half of that money
00:27:57
comes from the borrower's own deposits
00:28:00
so it's quite a substantial amount of
00:28:01
money the borrowers to put in
00:28:04
and that money keeps growing because
00:28:06
everybody's
00:28:07
putting additional deposits every week
00:28:10
so it keeps growing and growing so they
00:28:13
they have their own savings account at
00:28:15
the same time
00:28:16
other people can put in money there
00:28:19
sometimes we see that maybe
00:28:21
in certain brands we have too much money
00:28:24
that whether we should do
00:28:25
keep that level of deposit without
00:28:28
expanding the business we encourage them
00:28:30
to expand the business
00:28:31
rather than build up too much deposits
00:28:34
you had referred earlier to the idea of
00:28:36
a social business and you explained
00:28:38
how that differs from a conventional
00:28:39
business and one example of that
00:28:41
is grameen denon foods what i find
00:28:45
really remarkable is that you are able
00:28:46
to produce
00:28:48
uh power yogurt or shaktidoi
00:28:51
for five cents for an 80 for
00:28:54
for an 80 gram cup how can you explain
00:28:57
how the economics of that works
00:28:59
and whether that model is scalable yes
00:29:02
very much because
00:29:02
it's a business that's what the whole
00:29:04
idea is should be
00:29:06
running as on business principles that
00:29:08
you have to cover your cost
00:29:10
and generate some surplus so that the
00:29:12
business can keep running
00:29:14
but the idea of social business is
00:29:16
investors have invested the money
00:29:18
not for the benefit of their own it is
00:29:21
invested to achieve a social objective
00:29:23
in this case of grameen danone
00:29:25
objective is to bring nutrition to the
00:29:28
malnourished children
00:29:29
what we have done we put all the
00:29:31
micronutrients which are missing in the
00:29:33
children
00:29:34
in the yogurt and make it very tasty
00:29:37
children love it they pay that five
00:29:40
cents to buy a cup
00:29:42
and if a child eats two cups a week
00:29:45
and continues to do so for eight to nine
00:29:48
months
00:29:49
he or she gets all the micronutrients
00:29:51
back and become a healthy playful child
00:29:54
so that is the objective of the company
00:29:57
so that
00:29:57
is how it is done and others it's a
00:29:59
cause it's a question of how much it
00:30:01
cost
00:30:02
milk costs how much processing costs
00:30:04
equipments and
00:30:05
distribution costs and so on once you're
00:30:07
in social business
00:30:09
lots of costs go down because you don't
00:30:12
need to incur those costs for example
00:30:14
you don't know
00:30:15
any elaborate or fancy marketing
00:30:19
because as long as people know what
00:30:20
you're doing and they're interested in
00:30:22
it
00:30:22
but so you don't have to go until
00:30:24
television or newspaper
00:30:26
uh we are here and life is uh
00:30:30
meaningless without eating uh uh shakti
00:30:33
we don't say that we explain what it is
00:30:36
as the
00:30:37
people come and gradually the spreads
00:30:40
and that's it so the marketing cost goes
00:30:42
down and we have
00:30:44
in our design we made it sure that the
00:30:47
extra costs are
00:30:48
cut off trimmed off for example we made
00:30:51
it this
00:30:52
very small plant so that
00:30:55
you don't produce too much around your
00:30:58
own plant
00:30:59
there's enough consumers to bite rather
00:31:02
than go at a long distance
00:31:04
the idea is to cut down the cost of coal
00:31:07
chain
00:31:08
if you are producing in a big plant you
00:31:10
have to carry all this to
00:31:11
long distances and you need cold chain
00:31:13
and cold chain is a very expensive item
00:31:15
so we reduced that we eliminated that so
00:31:18
our idea is to have
00:31:19
many many many small plants all around
00:31:21
the country
00:31:22
so that you reach out to everybody this
00:31:24
is number one plant
00:31:26
which is already operating then we are
00:31:28
getting ready for the number two plant
00:31:29
we want to have about 50 plants to cover
00:31:31
all the children in bangladesh
00:31:33
and each one is self-contained each one
00:31:35
makes money prof
00:31:36
it will cover the cost and so on
00:31:39
sometimes you get through
00:31:40
difficulties like suddenly during the
00:31:42
food crisis last year
00:31:44
the milk prices jumped
00:31:47
we couldn't maintain that price
00:31:50
tag that we had on the product so we are
00:31:54
wondering what we should do
00:31:55
we came out to many kind of alternatives
00:31:57
to keep the prices down
00:31:59
at the same time without losing the
00:32:02
micronutrients and so on
00:32:03
so quickly we came out with the shock to
00:32:06
drink
00:32:07
so that the milk becomes less other
00:32:10
elements becomes
00:32:11
more water and other things but keeping
00:32:13
that and have a good taste for it
00:32:15
keeping the price lowest before but
00:32:18
we are lucky milk prices went down again
00:32:20
we continued and so on
00:32:22
so we have to cope with those kind of
00:32:24
fluctuations without
00:32:26
losing the whole focus of the company
00:32:29
in addition to uh grameen danone and
00:32:32
intel i think you have a relationship
00:32:34
also with basf for any malarial nets
00:32:37
do you have any joint ventures or
00:32:38
partnerships with other companies in the
00:32:40
works
00:32:41
yeah many countries many sorry many
00:32:43
companies are coming up with
00:32:45
ideas to work with us for social
00:32:48
businesses and we're giving them ideas
00:32:51
one already is in operation as a very
00:32:53
important social business that we have
00:32:55
right now
00:32:56
is a grameen violia violia is the water
00:32:58
company
00:32:59
it's a french water company one of the
00:33:00
largest water company in the world
00:33:03
many of the u.s cities are served by
00:33:05
violia
00:33:06
for their water so we this giant company
00:33:10
we
00:33:10
persuaded them to create a tiny little
00:33:13
uh
00:33:13
water treatment plant in the villages of
00:33:16
bangladesh
00:33:17
to serve 50 000 uh
00:33:20
people in the village because our
00:33:22
problem is a big problem
00:33:24
in bangladesh with arsenic in our water
00:33:27
very high level of poison
00:33:30
in the water and millions of bangladesh
00:33:34
almost half the population
00:33:35
of bangladesh bangladesh has a total of
00:33:37
150 million people
00:33:39
so half the population is 75 million
00:33:42
they drink water with high level of
00:33:46
arsenic
00:33:47
so we are putting up this company to
00:33:50
supply
00:33:50
clean violent quality water to every
00:33:53
household in the village
00:33:55
and they will be paying for it very
00:33:57
small amount nobody will
00:33:59
mind paying for that and it will cover
00:34:01
all its cost
00:34:03
and it will become a social business
00:34:05
really it's not there to make money out
00:34:06
of it
00:34:07
but the fact that people are drinking
00:34:10
poison every day
00:34:12
now we can do this we can overcome that
00:34:14
nothing is happening
00:34:16
through any other program so we said
00:34:18
let's move on and do that
00:34:19
so this becomes another example of
00:34:21
social business and
00:34:22
once you can do that successfully for 50
00:34:25
000
00:34:27
people in the village you have developed
00:34:30
a seed
00:34:32
then all you need to do is to plant the
00:34:34
seed in other places
00:34:36
because each one is self-contained so
00:34:38
you can do as many as you want
00:34:40
and cover all the people so development
00:34:42
of the seed is the most important thing
00:34:44
in social business
00:34:45
like gaming is a seed now you can take
00:34:48
it you can take it anywhere in your
00:34:49
country
00:34:50
we have been already approached by india
00:34:52
we have been approached by china
00:34:54
they would like to have remainder known
00:34:56
in china and india and some places
00:34:57
because they have the same problem
00:34:58
malnutrition is a very common problem
00:35:00
so if this one works and health
00:35:03
authorities
00:35:04
are saying that yes this is a big
00:35:06
problem and
00:35:08
this works and we have invited gain
00:35:11
global alliance for
00:35:12
improved nutrition which is a big
00:35:15
ngo based in geneva concentrates on the
00:35:19
monitoring of the nutrition situation
00:35:21
globally to monitor whether this is
00:35:24
really true
00:35:25
whether this is just a gimmick that we
00:35:27
do or is a real
00:35:28
are the children benefiting and the
00:35:30
nutrition level is increasing and so on
00:35:32
so you have the grameen denon and you
00:35:34
have the grameen violia grameen intel
00:35:37
and there are some in the pipeline and
00:35:39
very interesting programs like one
00:35:41
shoe company very big show company
00:35:45
we have they approached us what can we
00:35:47
do said well
00:35:48
one i would say you have a theme and the
00:35:51
theme would be your
00:35:52
motto would be nobody in the world
00:35:54
should go without shoes
00:35:56
as a shoe company this is our
00:35:57
responsibility make sure to do that
00:35:59
so you come up with shoes that the
00:36:01
poorest people can afford
00:36:03
it's a good quality with your brand name
00:36:05
so that it's not a second class third
00:36:06
class thing
00:36:07
so you take the ownership of that shoe
00:36:10
and make it very cheap
00:36:12
they like that idea then i suggested why
00:36:14
don't you start with
00:36:15
making shoes for under one dollar
00:36:19
so you cover the people who can who
00:36:22
never be able to
00:36:23
use that brand name shoes in their
00:36:25
lifetime ever
00:36:26
but now every kids everybody will be
00:36:28
doing that and so on
00:36:29
so there are many in the pipeline basf
00:36:32
is one already
00:36:32
signed agreement will do the mosquito
00:36:34
nets treated mosquito net and also
00:36:36
nutrition sachet for pregnant women and
00:36:40
malnourished women because women
00:36:42
nutrition is uh again another area where
00:36:45
uh it's not as satisfactory as you would
00:36:48
like to be
00:36:49
so this company would be producing that
00:36:51
and
00:36:52
and make it possible for everybody to
00:36:55
afford that nutrition at the same time
00:36:57
while we are having this
00:36:58
nutrition supplement we'll be focusing
00:37:00
on the diet itself
00:37:02
because it's not forgetting about the
00:37:04
diet and just
00:37:05
going to the artificially taking the
00:37:08
nutrients
00:37:09
inside the body so we'll be also
00:37:11
encouraging them to have
00:37:13
right kind of food as they go on you've
00:37:16
been dedicated to the
00:37:17
microcredit concept long enough to be
00:37:20
able to observe the children
00:37:22
of that first generation of women that
00:37:23
you helped going back to 1976 and the 27
00:37:27
dollars that you loaned to 42 women
00:37:29
in a small village how are these
00:37:31
children who are now adults doing are
00:37:33
they
00:37:34
creating jobs for other people are they
00:37:35
starting their own companies are they
00:37:37
adding societal wealth to the community
00:37:39
and just by the very fact that these
00:37:41
this new generation of
00:37:43
of people still need help does that
00:37:45
suggest that you have a long way to go
00:37:47
with micro
00:37:47
credit or how does that what does that
00:37:50
say about the success of the movement
00:37:53
microcredit is the first step you
00:37:56
build up step by step many other things
00:37:58
like insurance program savings program
00:38:01
and many other programs around it we
00:38:04
have encouraged the
00:38:06
borrowers of grameen bank to send the
00:38:08
children to school because they
00:38:09
themselves are illiterate
00:38:11
their their husbands are illiterate
00:38:13
their parents are illiterate
00:38:15
so we thought let's break that circle
00:38:18
here
00:38:19
send the children to school so that your
00:38:20
children will be educated and
00:38:23
they will be literate at least and we
00:38:25
succeeded in doing that
00:38:26
having all the children in school so
00:38:28
that was a very happy
00:38:30
kind of experience for us that uh
00:38:33
not only we're giving them loans to the
00:38:35
borrowers but at the same time we have
00:38:36
helped them to send their children to
00:38:39
school
00:38:40
and then we saw lots of these children
00:38:43
are doing excellent results in the
00:38:44
schools
00:38:45
some of them coming up at the top of the
00:38:47
class so we kind of got thrilled by the
00:38:49
performance of some of these kids coming
00:38:51
from totally literate
00:38:53
totally poorest family coming to the
00:38:55
class with everybody else
00:38:57
now he or she is in the top of the class
00:38:59
so we thought this should be celebrated
00:39:01
so we started introducing
00:39:03
scholarships for all the top performing
00:39:05
students
00:39:06
and grameen bank gives over 30 000
00:39:09
scholarships
00:39:10
every year now it's growing it's 40 000
00:39:13
and so on every year
00:39:14
because the number of children are
00:39:15
growing then we saw many of these
00:39:17
children
00:39:18
coming close to higher education and
00:39:21
they have
00:39:21
difficulty in getting into higher
00:39:23
education because they don't have the
00:39:24
money to pursue the higher education but
00:39:26
the quality-wise they're as good as
00:39:27
anybody else
00:39:28
so immediately we introduced education
00:39:30
loans so that they don't have to worry
00:39:32
about
00:39:32
money so the money is our problem you
00:39:34
concentrate in their education so we
00:39:36
started giving education loans and
00:39:38
helping them to
00:39:39
higher education right now there are
00:39:41
more than 35 000
00:39:42
students in under education loans going
00:39:44
to medical schools engineering schools
00:39:46
universities
00:39:47
so almost in every single public
00:39:50
university and public medical schools
00:39:52
and
00:39:53
engineering schools there are grameen
00:39:55
children who are studying there so
00:39:58
a whole wave of new children are going
00:40:00
into that
00:40:01
so they when i meet them they will
00:40:04
always discuss
00:40:05
an issue which is worrying them about
00:40:07
the jobs
00:40:09
after we finish our job can you help us
00:40:12
find jobs
00:40:13
and how am i going to find jobs for them
00:40:16
so i started thinking about it
00:40:18
and then giving them a new idea that
00:40:22
maybe they shouldn't be thinking about
00:40:24
jobs uh
00:40:26
and we tell them look you are children
00:40:27
from gaming families you are gaming
00:40:29
children
00:40:30
your thinking should be different than
00:40:31
other children other than
00:40:33
other people other children they worry
00:40:35
about jobs you shouldn't be worrying
00:40:36
about it
00:40:37
you should be taking a pledge and repeat
00:40:40
this pledge every morning you wake up
00:40:42
and your pledge is i shall never seek
00:40:45
job from anybody
00:40:47
i'll create jobs this is my mission so
00:40:50
you are not job seekers
00:40:52
you are job givers so think in that
00:40:54
terms
00:40:55
because your mother you are a first unit
00:40:57
child your mother
00:40:59
owns a bank not many children
00:41:02
have that fortune you have that fortune
00:41:05
so your mother's bank
00:41:06
has enormous amount of money so money is
00:41:09
not your problem
00:41:10
your problem is what you do with your
00:41:12
money so think of what
00:41:14
what you can do as you go into education
00:41:16
and do that
00:41:17
and then if you feel frustrated you
00:41:19
cannot come up with an idea
00:41:21
think about your mother what she did
00:41:24
she didn't wait for anybody she took the
00:41:27
money and went for
00:41:28
a business herself she's an illiterate
00:41:31
woman
00:41:32
and along the way she was successful
00:41:34
step by step she went on and sent you to
00:41:36
school now you are in a
00:41:37
higher education with her bank
00:41:41
and what good is your education if you
00:41:43
cannot do better than your mother
00:41:45
if she can do it you can do much better
00:41:46
that's that's the thing that you have to
00:41:48
prove to yourself
00:41:50
that what you your mother gave you a
00:41:51
chance and you
00:41:53
make use of it and the use is that you
00:41:55
create a job for others
00:41:57
so and start a small and expand it as
00:42:00
you grow and
00:42:01
bring in more people to help you to grow
00:42:04
so
00:42:05
you don't have to wait to finish the
00:42:06
school and get a certificate in
00:42:08
education
00:42:10
when you use it for getting a job you
00:42:12
need a certificate
00:42:14
right you don't need a certificate when
00:42:15
you go into business yourself so when
00:42:17
you're in school you start the business
00:42:18
at the same time continue with it so
00:42:21
this is an idea that we are trapped
00:42:23
and some of them are taking this idea
00:42:24
and started borrowing from gaming bank
00:42:26
and
00:42:27
getting into business themselves to link
00:42:29
what you just said to
00:42:30
uh what we were discussing earlier about
00:42:33
social business
00:42:34
what kind of social businesses could you
00:42:36
start around education
00:42:37
and is grameen involved in any any such
00:42:40
activities
00:42:41
we along the health side what we have
00:42:44
done
00:42:44
we are in the process of finishing it
00:42:46
this year we are starting a nursing
00:42:48
college
00:42:49
as a social business because nursing is
00:42:52
a good profession
00:42:53
we'll be giving nursing degrees to the
00:42:56
young girls from grameen families
00:42:58
so they're coming from the poor families
00:43:00
going to nursing college and grameen
00:43:02
bank will give the education loans
00:43:05
so that they don't have to worry about
00:43:06
money where the money is coming from
00:43:08
and the college will cover its cost
00:43:12
and they will get the jobs and will
00:43:14
produce the nurses in
00:43:15
a way that they'll be internationally
00:43:17
acceptable level of education
00:43:19
they're a big shortage internationally
00:43:21
about the nurses
00:43:22
there's a big shortage within the
00:43:23
country so each girl will have a choice
00:43:26
whether she will work in the country or
00:43:28
should go outside
00:43:29
so this is a social business and i said
00:43:31
i don't have to limit myself to one
00:43:34
nursing college i can have a series of
00:43:35
nursing colleges they are paying for
00:43:37
itself
00:43:38
why can't you create as many as you want
00:43:41
because there are millions of
00:43:43
young girls waiting around sitting
00:43:44
around doing nothing because they have
00:43:46
no opportunities i can create some
00:43:47
opportunities for them
00:43:49
they change their life they change the
00:43:50
society because now
00:43:52
they go out of the village and they go
00:43:54
out and work in their
00:43:55
hospitals and so on and go outside the
00:43:57
country and learn languages
00:43:59
and so on so this is another example of
00:44:02
social business we want to do a medical
00:44:03
college in the same principle
00:44:05
because medical college also can cover
00:44:07
its own cost and produce doctors
00:44:09
doctors with this different kind of
00:44:11
orientation than they normally
00:44:12
have and normally a doctor a student
00:44:15
doctor is planning to
00:44:16
when i finish my education
00:44:20
i'll start my career and i'll make a lot
00:44:22
of money
00:44:23
and that's focus usually happens so this
00:44:26
orientation will be that when i come out
00:44:28
i want to make sure
00:44:29
i can help the health situation in the
00:44:31
country
00:44:32
and focusing on the poor families so how
00:44:35
do you do that kind of thing and having
00:44:36
a
00:44:37
very high quality of education so that
00:44:39
you have international links you don't
00:44:40
feel that you're left out
00:44:42
because you concentrated on a certain
00:44:44
kind of thing and you get involved with
00:44:46
research of the
00:44:47
health issues and so on so that's
00:44:49
another social business could come out
00:44:51
so education even in education you can
00:44:53
use the idea of social business
00:44:56
is there anything that's happened in the
00:44:58
micro credit movement or in your own
00:45:00
life as
00:45:01
it relates to this to this work that has
00:45:03
changed the way you view
00:45:04
microcredit is there's something that
00:45:06
said oh
00:45:07
have you ever said to yourself oh i
00:45:09
should do have done this instead of this
00:45:10
or i should be doing this instead of
00:45:12
this
00:45:12
have any of your initial assumptions
00:45:14
changed over the years
00:45:16
some basic assumptions remain same we
00:45:18
have expanded it
00:45:19
lots of other things came we thought
00:45:22
let's try this one and we tried it and
00:45:24
it worked we felt happy about it
00:45:26
um if you just look at the reflect what
00:45:29
i have done if i have
00:45:30
to do anything differently probably one
00:45:33
area probably i would have done
00:45:34
differently
00:45:35
uh when we began in 1982
00:45:40
there's a tremendous amount of
00:45:41
enthusiasm among the donors
00:45:43
to give us money because we had a small
00:45:46
project they wanted to help us
00:45:48
and we were very reluctant to take money
00:45:49
because we had plenty of money at that
00:45:51
time because we were a small project we
00:45:52
didn't need any money we had no idea
00:45:54
about taking money
00:45:56
but they kept on pressuring pressuring
00:45:58
us and the central bank with which we
00:46:00
were working
00:46:01
and finally central bank yielded because
00:46:04
they thought why not if they want to
00:46:05
give money let's take some money it's a
00:46:07
loan
00:46:07
not even a grant from ifa international
00:46:10
fund for agriculture development
00:46:11
so in 1982 we took the external money
00:46:14
before that we never had any external
00:46:15
money
00:46:16
and the donors other donors came in they
00:46:19
wanted to give us more money
00:46:21
so we thought why not once we have taken
00:46:23
one we can take two we can take three we
00:46:25
have started taking it and lots of money
00:46:27
kept coming
00:46:28
and we kept on expanding then one
00:46:30
complaint kept coming saying that well
00:46:32
grameen bank works because
00:46:34
it gets a lot of money and that's what
00:46:37
donors keeping it afloat
00:46:39
i said no that's not true that's not
00:46:41
what we were in
00:46:42
we didn't need the money they gave the
00:46:44
money so we took it
00:46:45
so in 95 we decided not to take any
00:46:48
money at all
00:46:49
because we thought we can do it
00:46:51
ourselves so from 95 on we never took
00:46:54
any
00:46:54
external money it's an entirely local
00:46:56
money local thing
00:46:58
so if you have to go back i would have
00:47:00
changed that 82 decision
00:47:01
never taken it never take any money so
00:47:03
that that confusion
00:47:05
was not created for a long time people
00:47:07
said well the donor has to be there
00:47:09
otherwise they cannot survive these are
00:47:11
donor kind of
00:47:12
uh supported program which stays alive
00:47:15
i said that's a very wrong idea because
00:47:17
that's not how we wanted to
00:47:19
work and that's how to uh we never
00:47:20
worked right so that's one
00:47:22
change i thought i should have done i
00:47:25
have one last question
00:47:26
how do you define success
00:47:29
just like any other case that whatever
00:47:31
your objective was if you came to that
00:47:34
your success it depends on what your
00:47:36
objective was
00:47:38
how do you relate it yes we made it
00:47:41
in our case we wanted to bring credit to
00:47:44
the poor people
00:47:45
and the saving services to the poor
00:47:47
people
00:47:48
and people said it would never work we
00:47:51
hope that it will work
00:47:52
and it did and then say well it may work
00:47:55
in one village it won't work for two
00:47:56
villages we did
00:47:58
they said maybe 10 villages it don't
00:47:59
work if you grow big it will collapse
00:48:02
you're stretching your luck too much we
00:48:05
did
00:48:06
so that is a success that even beyond
00:48:08
what we
00:48:09
imagined we never thought that we can
00:48:11
continue
00:48:12
uh with this such a
00:48:15
repayment record years and years
00:48:19
because organizations get weakened or
00:48:23
as you grow big your management becomes
00:48:25
a problem
00:48:26
and this was a big worry for us as we
00:48:28
grow
00:48:30
can the quality of administration
00:48:32
quality of management
00:48:33
continue to grow with it or deteriorate
00:48:35
it because you're not
00:48:37
running it yourself anymore you're
00:48:38
depending on
00:48:40
hundreds and hundreds and thousands of
00:48:42
young people
00:48:43
who just came to know about it
00:48:45
marginally knows about it
00:48:47
we leave everything in their hands and
00:48:48
the decisions but it worked
00:48:51
and then say it may work in bangladesh
00:48:53
it don't work outside
00:48:54
so now as i said it's worked all over
00:48:56
the country all over the world
00:48:58
in many countries they said well our
00:49:00
country is not like bangladesh we don't
00:49:01
have such a
00:49:02
huge density of population and not so
00:49:05
much
00:49:06
poverty concentrated in our population
00:49:08
so in our
00:49:10
country it won't work we said well you
00:49:12
debate about your country in bangladesh
00:49:14
give the task to us we go and do it for
00:49:16
you and
00:49:17
uh they accepted that many countries did
00:49:20
that so we started doing that we did it
00:49:22
in turkey we did in kosovo
00:49:24
we do it in costa rica guatemala in
00:49:26
china
00:49:27
india many places to demonstrate those
00:49:29
kind of things and we started one in new
00:49:31
york city
00:49:32
last year it's called grammy in america
00:49:35
we do the same kind of work that we do
00:49:37
in the villages of bangladesh and the
00:49:38
beautiful results we have more than 600
00:49:40
borrowers in
00:49:41
new york city all women five-member
00:49:45
group
00:49:45
weekly repayment savings two dollars
00:49:48
each week
00:49:49
we have given loans to all of them an
00:49:52
average loan is 2200 repayment rate is
00:49:56
99.3 percent
00:49:58
no collateral nothing so it works uh
00:50:02
i would say the id strength of the idea
00:50:05
that
00:50:05
it's not country specific or
00:50:09
people of particular locations specific
00:50:13
it's a global it's a human thing it's
00:50:16
not
00:50:18
something that works with one particular
00:50:20
trait of
00:50:21
character of a particular community
00:50:24
thank you very much thank you thank you
00:50:25
so much for joining us thank you
00:50:27
well thank you for giving me this
00:50:38
opportunity
