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good afternoon uh my name is Cassie mcer
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and I'm an assistant professor in the
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marketing department here at Wharton and
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I have the pleasure of being here today
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to chat with Gretchen rubben the author
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of her new book better than before
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mastering the habits of our everyday
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lives so Gretchen thanks for being here
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uh my first question is what drove you
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to write this book well you know I wrote
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The Happiness Project and happier at
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home so for years I been researching and
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writing and talking to people about
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happiness and I began to notice a
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pattern that was when I was talking to
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people about some big happiness boost
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that they'd achieved or more often a big
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happiness challenge that they were
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facing very often they were pointing to
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something that at its core involved a
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habit like somebody would say I'm just
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exhausted all the time and that's that's
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what's dragging me down which is really
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about the habit of getting enough sleep
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and so I became increasingly interested
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in the role that habits play in a
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happier healthier and more productive
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life and also the question of like how
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can we change our habits because
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sometimes we can and sometimes we can't
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so what was going on there right and you
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emphasized that an important step in
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changing our habits is knowing yourself
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yes why is that well this you know
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there's so much of a desire for a
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one-sized fits-all solution you know do
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it first thing in the morning start
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small do it for 30 days have a cheat day
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you know but there is no magic one siiz
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fitzall solution and what I found when I
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looked at it is that really all of us
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have to think about what's true for us
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um even something as simple as are you a
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morning person or a night person if
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you're a night person getting up early
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to go for a run you're not setting
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yourself up for success that's probably
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not going to work for you but often
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people they just decide what they think
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their their habit should be or they look
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at what Benjamin Franklin did or what
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their brother-in-law did and try to copy
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it but in fact what you have to do is to
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really say well what's true about me
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what do I notice about myself what's my
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nature so that you shape the Habit to
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suit yourself and then you set yourself
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up for success awesome um now I suspect
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that I like many others want to improve
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my eating habits but boy that is a hard
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thing to do are there any habit changing
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techniques that you would suggest to me
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and others who want to eat a little
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better well one thing um is the strategy
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of abstaining and again this is a
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strategy where you have to know yourself
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because it works really well for some
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people like me and does doesn't work at
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all for other people so abstainers are
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people who do better when they give up
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something all together like I can eat no
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Thin Mints or I can eat 10 Thin Mints
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but I can't eat two Thin Mints I'm an
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abstainer so for me resisting temptation
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altogether so french fries are your
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Kryptonite whatever it is just give it
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up Al together and that's easier for you
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it sounds harder but it's actually
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easier then moderators do better when
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they have something sometimes or they
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have a little bit and often if they if
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they know they can have something they
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don't even want it and so they do better
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when they do have a little bit
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that they allow themselves and this is
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true for for food but also for things
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like technology you know if you can't if
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you can't play a little Candy Crush
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maybe you want to play No Candy Crush
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but abstaining is a strategy that when
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you know yourself it can be enormously
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powerful um but it may not work for you
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so you really have to know um what kind
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of person you are so is someone um an
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abstainer across all of their domains or
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you know might I should I maybe abstain
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in some things but try moderating in
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others no almost everybody's mix it
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really has to do with how you deal with
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a strong Temptation so like for for
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chocolate I'm an abstainer but for wine
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I can drink half a glass of wine and
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some people are like I can have no wine
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or I can have four glasses wine I can't
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have one glass wine so you it has to do
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with managing a strong Temptation um but
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like moderators this was a mystery to me
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uh moderators often keep a bar of fine
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chocolate squirreled away somewhere in
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their desk and every day they'll have
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one square of fine chocolate as an
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abstainer there's no way I would not eat
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that chocolate bar in one day it would
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just haunt me until I'd eaten it um but
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for a moderator that's what works yeah I
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agree with you there's no way that
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chocolate bar last more than an hour um
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so I'm sure that over the course of
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working on this book you've spoken to a
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bunch of different people about a bunch
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of different habits they would like to
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implement in their life what are some of
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the things that people are looking to
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change in their lives well almost
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everything falls into what I call the
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essential seven um and I don't know if I
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can come up with all seven of them I
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always forget one but it's eating and
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drinking more healthfully exercising
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more engaging more deeply with
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relationships with nature with god um
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saving spending and uh earning money
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wisely um simplifying clearing
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uncluttering
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organizing uh making more progress and
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also stop procrastinating those are two
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sides of the same coin um and I'm
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leaving one out but there's another oh
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oh and rest relax and enjoy which is
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things like which sure something you're
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very interested in which is how do
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people experience the moment how do they
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have Leisure how can they rest a lot of
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people feel like they're just never at
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rest so there are these seven areas and
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just about every habit that people come
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up with somehow fits into one of those
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areas
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interesting um so you mentioned in the
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context of eating more healthfully that
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there are these strategies of abstaining
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versus moderating um across those
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different um changes that people are
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looking to make in their life what are
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um some other strategies that seem to
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produce the best results so what I found
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when I was looking at how people Master
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their habits is that there are 21
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strategies that people use and that can
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sometimes that sounds terrifying to
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people because it's so many but it's
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good because you can just pick and
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choose what works for you and um and not
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all the strategies are available to us
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at all times and they don't all work for
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everyone um so there are many strategies
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one of the most um helpful strategies uh
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and most familiar strategies is like the
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strategy of monitoring which is that if
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we monitor or something we tend to do a
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better job so if you want to eat more
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healthfully you keep a food journal if
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you want to exercise more you use a step
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counter another one is accountability
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most people do better when someone's
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holding them accountable so the strategy
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of accountability and for some people
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it's essential it's like the critical
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piece of allowing them to meet their uh
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change their habits um the strategy of
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scheduling put something on your
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schedule and it's more likely to get
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done um one that I took for granted it
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seems so obvious to me but many people
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have really loved it is this strategy of
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pairing when you pair something that you
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like to do with a habit that you perhaps
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don't enjoy as much so very often people
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will pair going going on the treadmill
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or the stationary bike with watching
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television because then if they can only
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watch Game of Thrones when they're on
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the treadmill then they're suddenly much
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more excited about going on the
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treadmill or maybe you're cleaning in
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the morning and you're listening to
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podcast I start I just started a podcast
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with my sister um happier with gret and
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Ruben and a lot of people have said like
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oh I'm use I'm pairing that with
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something else that I don't like to do
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um but there's 20 one of my my the one
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that I think is the funniest strategy is
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loophole spotting cuz we're such
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advocates for ourselves we can come up
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with so many justifications for why we
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should be off the hook just this once
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just right now oh oh I forgot there's an
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excuse I don't have to do this right now
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I forgot it's my birthday I'm on
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vacation you only live once I have to
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take advantage of this or lose out
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forever we're so uh we're so ingenious
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in coming up with uh with strategies of
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uh of justification
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that's just a few yeah um well they seem
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very helpful um now you say that through
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implementing good habits it takes the
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thought out of behavior so we're not
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constantly saddled with these choices
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where we have to exert
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self-control now one of my and so I
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guess the question that I have is if the
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goal is to make so much of our life
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mindless does that potentially come at
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the cost of mindfulness and maybe we st
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stop noticing you know the joys in Life
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or savoring the joys so I was thinking
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for instance if I implement the habit of
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every morning as my husband and I are
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saying goodbye on our way to work we
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give each other a kiss and say I love
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you that's one of my habits does that
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lose its meaning if it becomes a habit
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and similarly if every Saturday morning
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um my family we sit down for pancake
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breakfast does it lose its specialness
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if it's now a habit well that's a super
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important question because habits are
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are freeing and energizing because they
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eliminate decision and self-control but
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they often also have downsides now with
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the examples that you give um I
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immediately thought of this wonderful
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quotation from by flaner o Conor when
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somebody said well because she was a
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very devout Catholic and somebody said
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well but if you're just going through
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these these Catholic rituals by habit
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don't they lose their meaning and she
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said the church is mighty realistic
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about human nature it's better to be
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held to the church by habit than not at
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all and sometimes if you don't have the
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habit of kissing every morning you just
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forget to do it so part of it is that
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habit does make does help us ensure that
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things that are really important to us
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actually get done so in that way I think
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there's still something to be said for
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putting it on automatic but you're
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absolutely right habits speed time if
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you you know the first month on a job
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feels like it takes forever but then the
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fifth year on the job goes in a Flash
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because as every as Things become more
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familiar the brain just beats through
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them and to do something novel and
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challenging slows time and most of us
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enjoy experiencing slow Rich time so
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that's a negative of habit and the other
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thing is as you say they deaden they
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deaden experience now sometimes that can
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be good like if you're doing something
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that makes you anxious and you do it
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over and over until it becomes a habit
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that'll deaden that those negative
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feelings but also if you're kissing
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every morning maybe you're not going to
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experience it's going to deaden your
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feeling or like you know the first
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couple times you had that morning cup of
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coffee was Bliss but now that you have
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it every day you don't even taste it
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you're frantic if you don't get it but
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you don't even taste it so you're
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absolutely right habits in some ways
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they're wonderful and of course I'm kind
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of a habits Pusher I'm a big advocate
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for the power of habits but on the other
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hand they really do have downsides so
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you're exactly right we want to be
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mindful about how we use mindlessness
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because you don't want your whole life
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just you don't want to just be a
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bureaucrat of your own paperwork in your
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life right
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interesting um so as an upholder I loved
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your advice around
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scheduling um and not to mention it sort
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of nicely captur some of my own research
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on happiness where shifting people's
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attention towards time leads them to
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behave in ways that are more fulfilling
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and makes them happier um and you made a
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really nice point that scheduling is a
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strategy that makes sure that you'll
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spend time on things that are most
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important to you and I was just sort of
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wondering how do you manage your
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schedule do you um have a paper planner
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that you write things down is it an
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Outlook is it in your head and also not
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only how do you maintain your schedule
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but what are those things that you
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ensure are in your dayto day that you
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are sure to schedule in well I use Ye
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Old file OFA I'm one of the old like you
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know the same one I've had for a very
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long time um and then and then I have
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certain sort of rules that I follow so
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for instance if I'm writing a book then
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I try to do three hours of original
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writing in a day which doesn't sound
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like that much maybe unless you've
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written a book and then it sounds like a
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lot um and so uh so in a day-to-day I
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use a paper calendar to help schedule
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what I need to and then put in exercise
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and you know fit that in in between the
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the appointments I wish my days could
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unfold very regularly but they don't I
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have a very regular schedule which kind
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of drives me crazy but one of the things
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that I found is that sometimes you feel
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like these very high high Transcendent
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values can't be monitored or can't be
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scheduled like quality time with your
00:11:48
family or reading for fun and what I
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found is that if I put it on my calendar
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I'm much more likely to stick to it and
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I actually need to sometimes put that in
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and so for instance when my old older
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daughter be became a teenager and I
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wasn't spending as much time with her I
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wanted to have special time just the two
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of us where we weren't talking about
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homework or you know there was no
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nagging or chores or errands involved
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and so we set aside in afternoon a week
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so that we would have that time together
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so I just made sure that there was a
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place on my calendar for it and then it
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was such a relief because I didn't worry
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like oh I'm not spending any time with
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her because I was and so that was and
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and same thing like I love to read and
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uh and yet I feel like I don't have
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enough time to read and so I actually
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have on the weekends like I set aside
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time for different kinds of reading to
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make sure that I have the time that I
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want I love that idea I need to become
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more deliberate with my schedule um now
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another question I had was again as an
00:12:47
upholder I feel like I should fairly
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easily be able to implement wonderfully
00:12:52
positive habits around eating exercise
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and sleep however between my demanding
00:13:00
career and also trying to cultivate my
00:13:02
loving relationship with my husband my
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son let alone my family and
00:13:07
friends I sort of feel like I have
00:13:10
little control over how I spend my time
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and I feel like I'm more reactive rather
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than proactive with respect to what I
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eat and when I sleep I mean exercise is
00:13:20
a thing of the past unfortunately so I'm
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just sort of wondering what advice do
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you have for me as well as others who
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feel like they are are you know trying
00:13:30
to create positive habits for myself but
00:13:33
I'm very much living in the context of
00:13:36
others well that's I mean so many people
00:13:39
face that problem um and there's one
00:13:41
strategy that's called the strategy of
00:13:43
foundation and it has to do with the Str
00:13:45
like if you're going to start somewhere
00:13:46
if you wanted to make your life work
00:13:49
better you wanted to strengthen your
00:13:50
habits these are the habits that you
00:13:51
would want to work on first because
00:13:52
they're going to make all self-mastery
00:13:55
easier but like you say it's many of the
00:13:57
ones you listed it's eating and drinking
00:13:59
making sure that you're eating enough
00:14:00
because paradoxically one reason that
00:14:02
people overeat is that they don't eat
00:14:03
enough and then they get too hungry and
00:14:05
then they just eat all the wrong Foods
00:14:07
because they don't have any self-mastery
00:14:08
uh drinking lowers our inhibitions
00:14:10
getting enough sleep if you're not
00:14:11
getting enough sleep you're drained it's
00:14:13
very hard to use your good habits um
00:14:17
exercise maybe not going to the gym or
00:14:19
training for the marathon but just like
00:14:20
going for a 15 20 minute walk that makes
00:14:22
people feel more energetic more in
00:14:24
self-command and strangely uncluttering
00:14:26
for a lot of people getting outer order
00:14:28
makes them feel
00:14:29
more in control of themselves even if
00:14:31
it's an illusion it's sort of a helpful
00:14:33
illusion and so those are the areas to
00:14:35
start with but so those are the areas
00:14:36
you're struggling with and you know I
00:14:39
would say first start with getting
00:14:42
enough sleep and for many people they
00:14:44
don't want to give up that last couple
00:14:46
of hours because that's sort of their
00:14:48
play time their Goof Off time their fun
00:14:49
time but it's really important to get
00:14:52
enough sleep and so for a lot of people
00:14:54
I think it's helpful even to set an
00:14:55
alarm just like give an alarm in the
00:14:56
morning have an alarm at night figure
00:14:58
out most adults need 7 hours figure out
00:15:00
what your bedtime is a lot of adults
00:15:02
don't even really have a bedtime you
00:15:03
know little kids have a bedtime but we
00:15:05
just oh I'll go to bed when I'm tired
00:15:07
and then at the last minute you know you
00:15:08
check your work email or you start
00:15:09
watching something on TV and second wind
00:15:11
I'm not tired at all I'll stay up um and
00:15:14
but you should have gone to bed you know
00:15:15
hours before so starting with getting
00:15:17
enough sleep and I have to say for
00:15:19
myself this doesn't work for everybody
00:15:21
but if you give up sugar if you're
00:15:23
trying to eat more healthfully if you
00:15:24
give up sugar you get out of a lot of
00:15:27
cravings and there's a lot of stuff that
00:15:30
just falls off the list of of
00:15:33
Temptations but again I say that as an
00:15:35
abstainer a pretty hardcore abstainer so
00:15:37
it's not for everyone but it's something
00:15:39
to think about so I guess a sort of um
00:15:42
part of my question or I guess the Crux
00:15:44
of it was um creating those habits Ander
00:15:48
following those rules in the context of
00:15:51
um you know coordinating with my husband
00:15:54
and son so it's easy enough for me to
00:15:56
set an alarm at you know :00 I would
00:15:59
love to start going to bed at 9:00 every
00:16:01
night um why don't you go to bed at 9:00
00:16:03
every night well I'm starting to try but
00:16:06
then there's the question of like well
00:16:07
my husband doesn't want to go to bed at
00:16:09
9:00 at night and then are we going to
00:16:10
bed at different times and maybe that's
00:16:12
okay but then there's like him waking me
00:16:14
up when he goes to bed and then we
00:16:15
waking up earlier in the morning and um
00:16:18
and similarly coming up with what I want
00:16:20
to eat for dinner or you know to be
00:16:23
healthy do I impose that when we're sort
00:16:25
of getting T you know dinner on the
00:16:27
table for my son and myself so sort of
00:16:30
creating habits that I don't want to
00:16:33
impose you know the things that I want
00:16:35
to do for myself onto others um right
00:16:38
but I you know how do you sort of
00:16:40
coordinate well it's it's I mean and
00:16:42
this is the strategy of other people
00:16:43
which is that sometimes it's easy to
00:16:45
talk about our habits as if we were just
00:16:46
this isolated unit going through but as
00:16:48
you point out quite rightly we're we're
00:16:50
in a context of other people and also
00:16:52
our habits rub off on them and their
00:16:55
habits are rubbing off on you might go
00:16:56
to bed at 9:00 except your husband goes
00:16:58
to bed at Mid night right so he's
00:17:00
pulling you later and maybe you're
00:17:01
pulling him earlier but so your habits
00:17:03
are inter interacting with each other um
00:17:06
and so it's very important to think that
00:17:08
through and to say like well what do I
00:17:09
want to be true for me um and uh often
00:17:14
one loophole I'm not saying that you're
00:17:16
invoking a loophole but I'm just saying
00:17:17
it's a very popular a very popular
00:17:20
loophole is the concern for others
00:17:21
loopholes others will be uncomfortable
00:17:23
if I don't have a drink at this business
00:17:25
dinner um it's a birthday you're having
00:17:28
a birthday part I have to have a piece
00:17:29
of your birthday kick or it's going to
00:17:30
hurt your feelings really is it going to
00:17:33
do do like how much like part of it is
00:17:35
to really look very closely at at what
00:17:38
do people care about or what is going to
00:17:40
negatively affect someone or how is it
00:17:42
can you make a different decision for
00:17:44
yourself from what other what other
00:17:46
people choose um because I think
00:17:48
sometimes there's just sort of this
00:17:49
assumption like well I can't I can't
00:17:51
force everybody to eat the way I do does
00:17:54
everybody have to eat the way you do can
00:17:55
you eat differently from them can they
00:17:56
eat more like you I mean I think gets
00:17:59
back to this idea of mindfully that you
00:18:00
raised a while ago that sometimes I
00:18:02
think we skate over these questions too
00:18:04
quickly and we don't focus in on like
00:18:06
what what what would I like to do and
00:18:09
what can they do and what would they do
00:18:11
and do we have to do the same thing um
00:18:13
but I just had a funny example of this
00:18:15
where uh every year my uh in-laws and my
00:18:18
family go away on a beach vacation
00:18:20
together but this year I was on my book
00:18:22
tour so I couldn't go and three days
00:18:24
after into it my husband texted me
00:18:26
you're not here everything start
00:18:28
starting an hour and a half later
00:18:30
because I'm an early riser and I like to
00:18:32
eat early and it's not that I'm shaking
00:18:34
people awake but when I'm up and around
00:18:36
it kind of everybody else sort of gets
00:18:38
up and around and when I'm saying like I
00:18:40
think I'm starting to get hungry
00:18:41
everybody else is like well okay you
00:18:43
know so we do have this this this uh
00:18:47
engagement um but if you're very clear
00:18:49
about what you want what's right for you
00:18:52
and what you want your life to look like
00:18:54
well a lot of times if you change others
00:18:55
will change um even if you're not trying
00:18:58
to change them but it's not easy I don't
00:19:00
want to make it sound like it's just all
00:19:02
you do is make up your mind because it
00:19:03
is very hard when you're working with
00:19:04
other people and the more people the
00:19:06
more complicated it gets but I think
00:19:08
it's something that's really worth
00:19:09
thinking about instead of just sort of
00:19:10
assuming like well I can't I can't go to
00:19:12
bed earlier right it's like well maybe
00:19:15
you could you could think about it there
00:19:17
might be ways and it sounds like not
00:19:19
only just think about but also discuss
00:19:20
with those around you who you're trying
00:19:23
to coordinate with no because often they
00:19:25
might have a similar like one thing that
00:19:26
I work on a lot just cuz I myself love
00:19:29
to clean people's closets it's like a
00:19:31
hobby of mine and what I've noticed is
00:19:32
that often like I'll go over to a
00:19:34
friend's house and we'll clean out a
00:19:36
closet and then my friend's husband will
00:19:38
get so exhilarated by seeing that clean
00:19:40
closet that he'll clean out his closet
00:19:42
so sometimes if you if you do something
00:19:45
and it's really working for you if you
00:19:47
got a lot more sleep and you were just
00:19:49
feeling so much better your husband
00:19:50
might be like man I need to start
00:19:51
turning off the TV early or myself like
00:19:53
what am I doing you know if like why are
00:19:56
we what are we doing from 11: to
00:19:57
midnight it's not a high quality time
00:19:59
maybe we'd rather have that time in the
00:20:00
morning maybe we'd rather have that
00:20:01
sleep um so if uh what would you most
00:20:05
like people to take away from reading
00:20:08
your book that there is no one- siiz
00:20:10
fits-all solution you know we're
00:20:12
constantly told like if only you would
00:20:13
do it this way or try this this is the
00:20:15
magic solution and they're really every
00:20:17
some things work for some people
00:20:19
sometimes but nothing works for
00:20:21
everybody all the time a lot of things
00:20:22
that work very well for some people
00:20:24
actually are counterproductive for some
00:20:27
um so you really have to think about
00:20:29
yourself um even things as simple as are
00:20:32
you a morning person or a night person
00:20:35
um and when you think about yourself
00:20:38
then you can shape the Habit to suit you
00:20:42
and that's what allows people to succeed
00:20:43
I think they get we get discouraged
00:20:46
because we try and fail but often we
00:20:47
haven't set ourselves up for Success
00:20:49
because we haven't shaped it in a way
00:20:51
that's going to be in harmony with our
00:20:54
nature our values our interests and when
00:20:56
we do that then there's a lot more that
00:20:58
we can can do that's going to allow us
00:20:59
to succeed wonderful well thank you so
00:21:02
much for writing such a wonderful book
00:21:04
and for spending this time um with me
00:21:07
today to tell me more well thank you for
00:21:09
giving me the chance to talk about
00:21:10
habits
00:21:14
[Music]
