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Dan Loney: Well, the WNBA has helped lead a
great surge in interest around
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women's sports in the last few
years, but recent comments by
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WNBA player Angel Reese have
some worried about what might
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lie ahead. She called for
players in that league to,
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"Get what they are worth."
And while that may be
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great for the players, there are
still financial concerns around
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that league and women's sports
as we move forward. Eric Bradlow
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is Professor and Chair of
the Marketing Department here at
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the Wharton School, also co-host
of the Moneyball podcast, which
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you can listen to wherever you
get your podcast from. Hi Eric,
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how are you?
Eric Bradlow: Dan,
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it's great to be with you, and
it's great to talk about sports,
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and of course, the intersection
of that with business.
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- All right, so the comments by
Angel Reese drew a lot of
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attention. I don't think
there are many people
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out there that won't agree that
players should get what they're
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worth, but it is a unique
dynamic right now in how women's
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sports are burgeoning. We know
the contracts for the WNBA are
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smaller than what they would
probably want, but that was a
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collectively bargained agreement
a few years ago, and the
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expectation is that those
contracts will go up in the
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future.
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- Yeah, I mean, I think, look,
the question is -- and I agree
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with Angel Reese's comments in
general. I think the question
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is, where is the increased value
for, let's say, WNBA players
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going to come from? And what I
mean by that is, are they going
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to come necessarily from the
contracts from ownership? That's
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not obvious to me. But you're
now seeing a more greater
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marketing. I'm putting on my
Wharton marketing hat. You're
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seeing the marketing more of
their players. So you're seeing
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sponsorship agreements. You're
seeing, you know, advertising
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agreements with WNBA players.
You know, you watch television
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now, you look at social media.
WNBA players are now valued
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assets. So I look at each
individual. If I were a player
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in the WNBA, I'd say, "Look,
there's my contract value. In the
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short run, that's unlikely to be
the biggest part of my
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revenue. Then there's marketing
me, the individual, and my brand.
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In the same way that NIL are
doing that at the college level,
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WNBA players are going to do
that at the professional level. And
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then there's the third part,
which is them as an asset,
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whether it's as a speaker,
whether it's them building their
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companies or joining boards of
companies that want them." So I
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view it as, like, same way I do as
a professor, Dan. I have a total
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revenue pool. Some is going to
come from Wharton, some is going
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to come from other places. I'll
be honest, what I care about is
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that total package, and I think
the WNBA players, in the short
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run at least, are going to have
to think that way as well.
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- But when you look at the league,
and the various reports said
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that the WNBA lost, was in the
red this past year, I think it
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was, what, $40 million that they
lost last year. So that becomes
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the other side of the challenge
of trying to give the players
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what they want, but still having
this as an entity that's
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profitable or close to
profitable because there is that
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support from the NBA.
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- Yeah, so it's good question. So
I always think about the
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profitability numbers of, whether
it's the NBA or the WNBA, I
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don't put that much, and no pun
intended, stock in that. I
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really don't. Because it's not
about -- I'm not talking about any
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kind of hiding the real numbers
or anything like that, but what
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they consider costs, what they --
well, how much revenue they allocate
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to their profit numbers, I don't
know that that's as
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straightforward as like when you
and I fill out our taxes. I
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don't think it works that way.
Plus, if they have a growing
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league, we both agree it's a
burgeoning lead, we agree that,
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which means the value of the
asset will increase over time.
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So I don't spend other people's
money. Can the WNBA afford $40
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million, let's say that's the
number, plus losses for the next
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10 years? Maybe so if their
owners gain -- you know, if their
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assets double in value. But
you're asking a great question.
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If the WNBA becomes a nonviable
business model, then it's like
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what I always describe for
myself, and I'm sure a
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lot of your listeners will
resonate with that. If I'm not a
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professor at Wharton, because
Wharton goes out of business
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because it's an unviable
business model, then those other
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revenue sources I have aren't as
attractive. I'm not
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as attractive to them. And I
think the WNBA needs to think
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about that, and I think the
players need to think about that
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too.
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- Where do you think then we are
in this women's sports
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revolution with, obviously, the
success that the WNBA is having,
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but also the NWSL and some of
the -- and obviously in college
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athletics, we're seeing it play
out as well? Where are we in
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that process? Because, look, a
lot of this is still very young
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in terms of, if you compare how
professional sports on the men's
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side grew out.
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- Yeah, look, I think the number
one source, the thing that
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generates, as you know, Dan, very
well, the most revenue is
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generated by media. Its media
rights generate the most
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revenue. So now the
question is, what are the
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ratings? How many eyeballs, both
through, let's call it linear
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TV, social media impressions,
etcetera? Because, you know, this
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is the way I always describe it to
people. Like, you and I get to
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watch WNBA for free, great. But
advertisers don't get to
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advertise for free. So the more
eyeballs of people with
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disposable income they hit,
that's going to be the long run
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driver, at least in the next, I
think, five to 10 years. That's
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still going to be the primary
revenue source. So now the
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question is, how do you grow
that pipeline? And look, it's
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going to be the same way it is.
Look, I'm old enough to remember
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when nobody watched soccer in
the United States, and then all
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of a sudden, soccer became
bigger and bigger, and now
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that's a viable entity. Well, I
think women's sports are going
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to be the same way. Look, I'll
even say for myself, a die hard
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sports fan, which you know.
I've watched more women's sports
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and really enjoyed it in the
last two years than I did in the
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first 40 years of viewing in my
life. And part of that is due to
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what's going on on the Olympic
teams, part of it is the Caitlin
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Clark effect, part of it is what
they've done to repackage the
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brand. But I think I'm the --
I'm not the exception anymore, I
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think I'm the norm.
- So
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you're very optimistic
about where this is all headed
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in the next decade or two?
- Well,
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yes, and the reason is
because, you know, to me,
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since I can't really
personally identify, I'm the
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father of three sons, but I can
say if I was the father of three
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daughters, I would have them
participating in sports, I would
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have them engaged in sports, the
same way I am as the father of
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three sons, and I think you're
seeing a lot more of that. And
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it's not just women, you know,
girls or not. My sons watch
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women's athletics now. And so I
think you're seeing -- you're
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going to see that happening, and
I'm very, very optimistic. Now,
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will it reach the level of men's?
Not in the short term. And I
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don't think, by the way, that's
a realistic expectation, nor do
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I think salaries reaching the
same level are there as well.
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But I think the top level female
athletes, because of the brand
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value they bring to companies
and the way they're branding
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themselves now, I think they're
extraordinarily marketable
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assets.
- Well,
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as a dad of two girls and a boy,
you know that, I have had more
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fun watching my girls play
sports over the last decade or
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so than I had in a long time. So
I'm right there with you, and
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I'm really excited to see how
this all plays out in the
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future.
- Me
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too. And again, as I said, do
not think about the income as
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just the part that your day job
is paying you. Look, at the end
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of the day, I'm putting on my
marketing hat again, your day
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job as an athlete is to build
your brand for the long run.
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That includes the pay you get
from your day job, marketing
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opportunities, sponsorship
opportunities, etcetera. And the
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great news for all of us and for
society is that women athletes
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are getting greater
and greater opportunities to
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build their
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brand. - Eric, always great to
chat with you. Thank you, sir.
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- It's great to be with you, Dan.
- Thank you. Eric Bradlow,
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Wharton Marketing Professor and
Chair of the department, as well
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as co-host of the Moneyball
podcast.
