00:00:00
and unless an organization or your team leader in the organization has made a significant effort to be welcoming of
00:00:08
all voices and all diversity and to create an inclusive space the default that we feel as individuals
00:00:15
is to protect ourselves we don't take that risk because we know that there may
00:00:20
be serious consequences and we have seen those consequences for others welcome to
00:00:24
a special edition of the ripple effect I'm Dan Loney in honor of Juneteenth this month senior advisor to the dean
00:00:31
for the Coalition of equity and opportunity Kenneth Shropshire will be your special guest host in each episode
00:00:37
this month Ken and Wharton faculty are focusing on the critical themes of diversity equity and inclusion we'll be
00:00:43
covering a diverse range of topics bringing you the latest insights and knowledge that you could apply to your
00:00:49
life and work so get ready to dive into this special edition of the ripple effect with guest host Ken Shropshire
00:00:55
well certainly lots of discussion continuing about the state of the workplace and how Dei factors in great
00:01:04
to speak again with Ken Shropshire Ken it's an interesting Dynamic what we're
00:01:08
seeing right now around the workplace here and the thought not only of the employee ease but also of the companies
00:01:14
as well as to what that workplace is going to look like in the future now for sure and I'm excited to talk to
00:01:22
Ingrid because a lot of the what the workplace has to think about is is how do we
00:01:27
treat or how do we frame the workplace for these employees to be successful and Ingrid's work just thinking about this
00:01:34
issue broadly it's almost like a Capstone kind of conversation about whatever the issue might be
00:01:41
as an employer how do you provide provide a better setting a lot of her work is done in the healthcare space and
00:01:48
in hospitals and research there and not necessarily thinking about the specific issues of Dei but in fact what
00:01:58
she researches applies in any workplace well I will leave it to the two of you Ken Shropshire along with Ingrid
00:02:06
nemheart who is a professor of Healthcare Management here at the Wharton School Ingrid great to have you
00:02:10
with us and thanks for giving us some time today oh I'm thrilled to be here I
00:02:14
think this is a nice opportunity to talk about something that's near and dear to
00:02:17
my heart and I think as as Ken said relevant certainly relevant in the industry that I study of healthcare but
00:02:23
broadly relevant to any industry in any place where people go to work Ken it's all yours all right thanks Dan
00:02:31
so Ingrid as I said I'm excited to talk to you about this because I am always
00:02:35
learning stuff I'm by training I'm a lawyer so we always take stuff that
00:02:40
other people they would make arguments with it so so I'll try not to reframe
00:02:44
anything to my advantage um but you know two things really really captured me about your work and it's so
00:02:52
Broad and you've been at this for uh for a great deal of deal of time and have a
00:02:57
tremendous body of work but psychological safety and organizational learning and so as I was reading the work I have
00:03:07
the advantage to think about it in terms of this this Dei space and what workplaces are doing so so maybe we just
00:03:16
start off if you explain to us what psychological safety is in the workplace sure so psychological safety is the
00:03:29
belief that it's safe to take interpersonal risk at work so what do I mean by interpersonal risk Enterprise
00:03:35
are you taking it in a personal risk at work when you do things like speak up with a question or a concern or raise an
00:03:42
idea or point out a mistake or critique a plan that has been offered by someone else in any of those situations you're
00:03:51
taking a risk you're taking a risk that you're voicing something that may be
00:03:56
uncomfortable for other people to hear when you're psychologically safe you feel that it's okay to take that risk
00:04:03
and that you're not going to be punished you're not going to be devalued you're
00:04:07
not going to receive a promotion you're not going to get the worst office the
00:04:11
worst schedule because you decided to share something in the organization that had not been said before so so there's
00:04:18
actually a name for this this thing the idea of putting your head down and doing
00:04:21
your work not doing anything else right I mean that's the that's what people do in the
00:04:27
workplace when they don't feel psychologically safe they close in they don't voice and when they're not voicing
00:04:33
they're not voicing things on both sides of the spectrum they're not voicing
00:04:37
their more creative ideas or ideas for how to change work because that seems risky they're also not voicing things
00:04:43
that are going wrong or problems that the organization needs to learn about in order to be better for both its
00:04:49
employees and its customers and so there's a downside when people don't feel psychologically safe at work
00:04:56
psychological safety is really the idea that you can speak candidly about whatever is on your mind relevant to the
00:05:02
workplace and that that will not be held against you yeah I think a great what sucked me in
00:05:09
on the work was uh epic is one of the earlier pieces that you did that that talked about a medical professional that
00:05:19
wouldn't speak up to a more senior Medical Professional because of the psychological safety issue and I can
00:05:26
only think about how devastating that that could be how that's exactly what you don't want in that kind of study
00:05:33
exactly I it was my very first study actually that you're pointing out and we
00:05:38
looked at this idea but we've I I've now seen it over and over again in healthcare and has been proven over and
00:05:44
over again EU come from a legal background imagine the junior associate in the practice speaking up to the
00:05:52
partner in the practice all those put you in vulnerable positions in healthcare we see it certainly it
00:05:57
follows the status hierarchy so whether or not a nurse feels like she can speak up to a physician or a surgeon and say
00:06:05
you know as bad as this is going to sound I'm going to say you're operating
00:06:08
on the wrong body part thank you for this happens or I just need to wash your hands because we all
00:06:16
know basic you need to wash your hands to prevent infection you see someone enter the room and we're in a busy
00:06:22
workplace so it's not out of malice but you forget to wash your hand does someone raise you know does somebody
00:06:28
lower in status say you forgot to wash your hands before you touch the patient it can have life or
00:06:34
death consequences in the context of healthcare but it is just as significant in other Industries in other ways in
00:06:40
terms of do you invest in that drug or not do you change the organizational process in that way or not and what are
00:06:47
the ramifications of that yeah so it's really interesting to think about that the how
00:06:53
I hate to personalize it but I do keep thinking about my you know first jobs and the and the ideas I said keep my
00:07:00
head down I'm not going to say anything it is if something wrong is going on I
00:07:04
mean my earliest jobs were in cheering steel bars in a warehouse and loading treat on box cars
00:07:12
and I I can say I can see some things going on wrong and it's I'm just trying
00:07:18
to get myself away from that right I'm not thinking about the whole I'm not
00:07:22
thinking about the whole organization I'm thinking about me and that's exactly right when we look
00:07:27
at the literature what the literature and the experience would suggest is that people think about what the consequences
00:07:33
are for them as the individual not the consequences for the organization and we're pretty we can make a guess about
00:07:39
what the consequences will be for us whether that would be positive or negative seeing the consequences for the
00:07:46
organization can be much more uncertain they could be delayed My Punishment can be immediate if someone doesn't
00:07:51
appreciate what I say so for just as another issue in the workplace so so Dei diversity issues
00:08:02
something seems wrong to either a person who is a member of a diverse group who's
00:08:08
Black Or Hispanic or a member of the lgbtq community or whatever it might be they see something
00:08:17
wrong in the workplace or they hear something that they think is inappropriate the natural hesitation especially in a
00:08:25
majority based organization is I don't want to be the one to raise that issue
00:08:35
yeah so this fits squarely in in the kind of research that what you're doing because the end
00:08:42
result is well you should say something because it it might make the organization better
00:08:48
right exactly so I would knock as you said I would not be considered a Dei researcher I have been studying
00:08:57
psychological safety for many years but the two I do believe are intertwined so you know even if you take
00:09:05
you can be diverse along many dimensions you can be often when we talk about the
00:09:10
reason diversity becomes relevant as people who are considered more diverse tend to have lower status in the
00:09:17
organization so much like my nurse has lower status than my physician or my medical assistant has lower status than
00:09:22
my nurse that puts you in a position where you're much more vulnerable and where you're much more likely to I would
00:09:30
say there's a higher propensity to not feel psychological see safe because you
00:09:34
know that you are different and you understand your place in the hierarchy and unless an organization or your team
00:09:42
leader in the organization has made a significant effort to be welcoming of all voices and all diversity and to
00:09:49
create an inclusive space the default that we feel as individuals is to protect ourselves we don't take
00:09:56
that risk because we know that there may be serious consequences and we have seen
00:10:00
those consequences for others the thing is that we know that we we learn right we're humans and we learn from
00:10:07
experience so if I'm in a meeting with you and other people and I see someone
00:10:12
else in the room who is maybe higher status than me because they are less diverse than me or whatever raise their
00:10:20
hand and the reaction is not positive by others in the room I learn immediately that I should not raise my hand that
00:10:28
that is even more likely to happen to me because I don't have the social capital
00:10:32
to for people to say oh no they'll say oh that was a half-baked idea and then
00:10:37
it goes on from there and so when you're a part of when you are diverse and you're typically aware
00:10:45
you're diverse you're more conscious of you know you know when you're taking a risk
00:10:52
and your car and we've said in some other other conversations too that and then this won't come out right but
00:11:00
I'm old man so I sometimes say things that don't go all right you don't want
00:11:04
to be I you don't want that diversity issue to be the dominant thing that people turn to you for either yes that's
00:11:11
that's another reason that may be unique amongst reasons why you don't speak up I
00:11:18
mean the idea that you're the the the the entry-level nurse and you're looking
00:11:23
out for your job doesn't have a whole lot to do with the idea of I don't want to be identified as
00:11:31
the smart nurse it says right right you're not pegging in the space but once
00:11:36
as a diverse person you start to speak on these issues then you almost give license for
00:11:42
leadership to turn to you and say you become responsible we've got the race the race issue today it's so wait a
00:11:50
minute I'm a lawyer I don't study I'm here for the finance issues I experience this myself
00:11:58
which is yes it I think right there is the becoming responsible for these issues is another
00:12:10
um is itself its own issue right and how much do you want to speak about this issue how much do you want to be the
00:12:19
bearer of this issue will you be included after you have spoken up about this issue if you were truthful about
00:12:26
what you have observed in the organization it's wonderful yeah so my colleague Amy Edmondson who's
00:12:33
at Harvard Business School and I introduced this concept of inclusive leadership or leadership inclusiveness
00:12:38
in our work in the healthcare setting and in that we make this we make this argument that there is sort of the
00:12:45
inclusive the invitation to speak and then the reaction that happens in their response to that
00:12:51
and it's twofold and we've all been in situations where we've been invited so
00:12:55
maybe we've been invited to sit on the Dei committee and then you actually participate
00:13:02
because you think you have been invited and you have received a genuine invitation to to play a role in bringing
00:13:08
the organization along in this in this way and then the consequences are not positive for you
00:13:14
you have to have both right that we've all experienced the invitation not followed by
00:13:20
uh the positive outcome that we hope for so so the great the greater frame to to
00:13:25
your work with this Dei spaces it's fine to create whatever kind of Dei programs
00:13:34
you want but you also have to have an awareness of the psychological safety issue as you
00:13:40
do so exactly and not travel someone down inadvertently with all with all all well intended we need to initiate these
00:13:49
programs let's let's call up Ken and Ingrid Too Perfect the added issue becomes frankly too
00:14:06
for all you podcast listeners becomes as well if I sit on the couch myself and put this stuff out there
00:14:13
um if I don't do inward gets out that I don't do it that's another issue from
00:14:17
from my community is well you know he was asking asking he didn't he didn't do
00:14:22
it he didn't want to support right his community so all this fits under that
00:14:26
that banner I mean I love that you raised the point that which I think we're really seeing a
00:14:33
lot of organizations are thinking about how to improve belonging and diversity include you know all of it and that is a
00:14:43
wonderful thing we have hoped for this for many years and I think we're still figuring out how
00:14:49
to do it I I I applaud organizations for the many efforts that they try but what you said is exactly right
00:14:56
unless the climate really does allow for the free voicing for people to take a risk and deal with
00:15:05
these topics truthfully and honestly and candidly it sort of doesn't matter how many
00:15:10
initiatives you announce right because there's a there is a climate that you has to be built within
00:15:16
the organization in order for the organization to do hard work that is hard work
00:15:21
diversity and like Dei is hard work and it means that the organization for many organizations so this is going to tie
00:15:28
into my other stream of research this is something that organizations have to learn they have to learn how to
00:15:35
do this and learning is hard and you can't do learning teams can't learn to
00:15:40
be different with each other unless they're a psychological safety so your point about sort of all these
00:15:45
initiatives yes you know it's who you choose to be on them for sure there's
00:15:49
also the process and what happens once you've put them together and they can't
00:15:53
unless they have this Foundation it will be extremely hard for them to take flight in the way that you might
00:16:00
hope okay so so far my education is so if I'm a leader and I'm going to be
00:16:08
focused on psychological safety I I certainly need to contemplate inclusiveness in in what I
00:16:19
do and which which also just might by necessity means make sure you're not excluding
00:16:26
or you're going overboard with including and a good way to do that the other word
00:16:31
that came up in our conversation is is to be aware of the vulnerability of of people as you engage in in this journey
00:16:41
but and it's it's for as I said if we started off for any initiative or for any
00:16:49
betterment of the the place of employment this idea of thinking about how do you not
00:16:56
discourage the nurse from speaking up I mean he's got that Baseline idea which
00:17:00
he said I didn't know I didn't know so the first part of the study but that
00:17:03
sort of sets it up so clearly that you know it's about the same token it's
00:17:08
really normal with that young intern doctor that that learned that thing in class that the senior doctor didn't
00:17:14
learn and won't speak up in the operating room this is my heart's about to pick the last beat unless they give
00:17:20
me the drug that this kid knows about yes so please speak up so so I do I do want to just in the
00:17:28
remaining time talk about the learning part that you raised in organizational learning and how to how to best make
00:17:35
that happen I think somewhere in your work I saw the the phrase something about how to learn better and faster and
00:17:42
it's kind of the framing that goes into place what what kinds of things if we
00:17:48
got leaders thinking about psychological safety what kinds of things do we want to leave them in terms of
00:17:54
improving the learning that takes place in the organization to get on board with
00:18:00
whatever it is the company is trying to drive so the psychological safety piece is
00:18:08
about setting the foundation and the climate I think then the question becomes what do you do what are we able
00:18:14
to do as a group of workers to make things better and that's the learning piece
00:18:18
and what I think I've learned from my research well I think I've learned quite
00:18:23
a few things about but maybe the thing that is most relevant for listeners is the importance of learning activities
00:18:30
that really help people to understand how and why they are doing what they're
00:18:34
doing so let me make that a little bit more concrete and some of our work we have
00:18:39
distinguished between activities that are learning activities are really learned what
00:18:43
um and then we have another class called learn how so you think about learning activity learn what activities as can
00:18:49
let me give you an article about Dei so you will read the article and you will magically
00:18:56
be my Dei Guru because I've given you an article our work doesn't show that that
00:19:01
necessarily leads to the performance benefits and the improvements that you want to see on the not that I mean you
00:19:08
have to educate but when you're using learning activities that allow people to
00:19:12
understand why that important why that's important and how that is important and
00:19:16
how that will manifest on the consequences that we desire those types of learning activities make a difference
00:19:22
so sometimes that is about um you know in the healthcare space sometimes that is you know doing your
00:19:28
plan do study act cycle let's put something in let's try it out let's
00:19:33
learn from it let's Circle back around being very intentional about those and
00:19:37
those more active learning activities those deliberate learning activities can make a huge difference but we know that
00:19:43
workers are not excited about engaging in those activities unless they have that foundation and they feel safe to do
00:19:49
it they have this you know that there's a safety there's the resources there's
00:19:51
you know all the things we teach in business school about getting things done but we need these
00:19:58
columns you have to have an environment and I will actually say you didn't ask
00:20:02
this but I do think it is important as as we move forward in thinking about Dei that it might be useful to organizations
00:20:09
to position it as we are learning how to do this better right so it's not the difference between
00:20:15
sort of a performance like we're going to be great at this tomorrow versus we're on a journey together to be better
00:20:20
at including all of the voices around the table and that allows for some failures to
00:20:25
happen along the way and for us to recover and try something new again and keep at it
00:20:32
and I was going to ask that that's really insightful and and you sort of answered this
00:20:38
and it's fine now now we're talking about this I'm thinking all this in
00:20:41
terms of my my now adult kids and and there of well they have been of that generation that
00:20:50
that gets triggered and what's the other word that you know I want to bring my
00:20:55
genuine self and sort of all your authentic being yeah authentic yeah which you know which is we we had it had
00:21:02
a discussion of that's very very important so I'm just expressing the 70
00:21:05
year old kind of but it sounds like and as I'm thinking about my kids in this sense
00:21:15
we don't often enough give the why the why we're you know because I said so
00:21:22
right so it sounds like the best leaders are are not saying take this document do it because I said
00:21:30
so and I don't care I don't care how you feel about it never get to tell people you don't care
00:21:37
as a general principal as a leader we don't recommend that on the organization
00:21:42
but it makes a huge difference to explain to people why they're doing something and what their role is and why
00:21:49
their role matters it can it it's a Difference Maker people want I will say many people come to work
00:21:58
wanting to deliver for themselves their teams and their clients and their customers they want they don't people
00:22:05
don't go to work wanting to have bad days no nope so it's a matter of helping people
00:22:11
understand how they fit and when they understand how they fit and they contribute to the greater good
00:22:17
that's motivating and you want to provide that you also want to provide an opportunity for
00:22:22
people who are at the front lines who really do know what's going on to share
00:22:26
that with you you want to hear their creative ideas that sounds like a great place to end
00:22:34
and a great takeaway in terms of how to improve the organization by making people feel safe but also having an
00:22:42
atmosphere where learning is continuous and the people understand why why they're doing it and they are on board
00:22:49
with making the organization a better one thank you thank you thanks for having me
00:22:56
thank you for listening to the ripple effect we hope you found this episode informative and engaging don't forget to
00:23:02
subscribe and leave us a review so that we can continue to bring you the best Insight from the Wharton School