00:00:00
and unless an organization or your team
00:00:03
leader in the organization has made a
00:00:06
significant effort to be welcoming of
00:00:08
all voices and all diversity and to
00:00:10
create an inclusive space
00:00:13
the default that we feel as individuals
00:00:15
is to protect ourselves we don't take
00:00:17
that risk because we know that there may
00:00:20
be serious consequences and we have seen
00:00:22
those consequences for others welcome to
00:00:24
a special edition of the ripple effect
00:00:26
I'm Dan Loney in honor of Juneteenth
00:00:28
this month senior advisor to the dean
00:00:31
for the Coalition of equity and
00:00:32
opportunity Kenneth Shropshire will be
00:00:34
your special guest host in each episode
00:00:37
this month Ken and Wharton faculty are
00:00:39
focusing on the critical themes of
00:00:41
diversity equity and inclusion we'll be
00:00:43
covering a diverse range of topics
00:00:45
bringing you the latest insights and
00:00:47
knowledge that you could apply to your
00:00:49
life and work so get ready to dive into
00:00:51
this special edition of the ripple
00:00:53
effect with guest host Ken Shropshire
00:00:55
well certainly lots of discussion
00:00:58
continuing about the state of the
00:00:59
workplace and how Dei factors in great
00:01:04
to speak again with Ken Shropshire Ken
00:01:06
it's an interesting Dynamic what we're
00:01:08
seeing right now around the workplace
00:01:10
here and the thought not only of the
00:01:12
employee ease but also of the companies
00:01:14
as well as to what that workplace is
00:01:17
going to look like in the future
00:01:19
now for sure and I'm excited to talk to
00:01:22
Ingrid because a lot of the what the
00:01:24
workplace has to think about is is how
00:01:26
do we
00:01:27
treat or how do we frame the workplace
00:01:29
for these employees to be successful and
00:01:32
Ingrid's work just thinking about this
00:01:34
issue broadly it's almost like a
00:01:36
Capstone kind of conversation about
00:01:39
whatever the issue might be
00:01:41
as an employer how do you provide
00:01:44
provide a better setting a lot of her
00:01:46
work is done in the healthcare space and
00:01:48
in hospitals and research there
00:01:51
and not necessarily thinking about the
00:01:54
specific issues of Dei but in fact what
00:01:58
she researches applies in any workplace
00:02:01
well I will leave it to the two of you
00:02:04
Ken Shropshire along with Ingrid
00:02:06
nemheart who is a professor of
00:02:07
Healthcare Management here at the
00:02:09
Wharton School Ingrid great to have you
00:02:10
with us and thanks for giving us some
00:02:12
time today oh I'm thrilled to be here I
00:02:14
think this is a nice opportunity to talk
00:02:16
about something that's near and dear to
00:02:17
my heart and I think as as Ken said
00:02:19
relevant certainly relevant in the
00:02:21
industry that I study of healthcare but
00:02:23
broadly relevant to any industry in any
00:02:26
place where people go to work
00:02:28
Ken it's all yours all right thanks Dan
00:02:31
so Ingrid as I said I'm excited to talk
00:02:34
to you about this because I am always
00:02:35
learning stuff I'm by training I'm a
00:02:38
lawyer so we always take stuff that
00:02:40
other people they would make arguments
00:02:42
with it so so I'll try not to reframe
00:02:44
anything to my advantage
00:02:48
um but you know two things really really
00:02:50
captured me about your work and it's so
00:02:52
Broad and you've been at this for uh for
00:02:54
a great deal of deal of time and have a
00:02:57
tremendous body of work but
00:02:59
psychological safety
00:03:01
and organizational learning
00:03:05
and so as I was reading the work I have
00:03:07
the advantage to think about it in terms
00:03:10
of this this Dei space and what
00:03:13
workplaces are doing so so maybe we just
00:03:16
start off if you
00:03:18
explain to us
00:03:20
what psychological safety is in the
00:03:25
workplace
00:03:26
sure so psychological safety is the
00:03:29
belief that it's safe to take
00:03:31
interpersonal risk at work so what do I
00:03:33
mean by interpersonal risk Enterprise
00:03:35
are you taking it in a personal risk at
00:03:36
work when you do things like speak up
00:03:38
with a question or a concern or raise an
00:03:42
idea or point out a mistake or critique
00:03:46
a plan that has been offered by someone
00:03:48
else in any of those situations you're
00:03:51
taking a risk you're taking a risk that
00:03:54
you're voicing something that may be
00:03:56
uncomfortable for other people to hear
00:03:59
when you're psychologically safe you
00:04:01
feel that it's okay to take that risk
00:04:03
and that you're not going to be punished
00:04:05
you're not going to be devalued you're
00:04:07
not going to receive a promotion you're
00:04:09
not going to get the worst office the
00:04:11
worst schedule because you decided to
00:04:13
share something in the organization that
00:04:15
had not been said before so so there's
00:04:18
actually a name for this this thing the
00:04:20
idea of putting your head down and doing
00:04:21
your work
00:04:23
not doing anything else right I mean
00:04:25
that's the that's what people do in the
00:04:27
workplace when they don't feel
00:04:28
psychologically safe they close in they
00:04:31
don't voice and when they're not voicing
00:04:33
they're not voicing things on both sides
00:04:36
of the spectrum they're not voicing
00:04:37
their more creative ideas or ideas for
00:04:39
how to change work because that seems
00:04:41
risky they're also not voicing things
00:04:43
that are going wrong or problems that
00:04:45
the organization needs to learn about in
00:04:47
order to be better for both its
00:04:49
employees and its customers and so
00:04:52
there's a downside when people don't
00:04:53
feel psychologically safe at work
00:04:56
psychological safety is really the idea
00:04:58
that you can speak candidly about
00:05:00
whatever is on your mind relevant to the
00:05:02
workplace and that that will not be held
00:05:04
against you
00:05:06
yeah I think a great what sucked me in
00:05:09
on the work was uh epic is one of the
00:05:12
earlier pieces that you did that that
00:05:15
talked about a medical professional that
00:05:19
wouldn't speak up to a more senior
00:05:21
Medical Professional because of the
00:05:24
psychological safety issue and I can
00:05:26
only think about how devastating that
00:05:28
that could be how that's exactly what
00:05:30
you don't want in that kind of study
00:05:33
exactly I it was my very first study
00:05:36
actually that you're pointing out and we
00:05:38
looked at this idea but we've I I've now
00:05:41
seen it over and over again in
00:05:43
healthcare and has been proven over and
00:05:44
over again EU come from a legal
00:05:46
background imagine the junior associate
00:05:49
in the practice speaking up to the
00:05:52
partner in the practice all those put
00:05:54
you in vulnerable positions in
00:05:56
healthcare we see it certainly it
00:05:57
follows the status hierarchy so whether
00:05:59
or not a nurse feels like she can speak
00:06:01
up to a physician or a surgeon and say
00:06:05
you know as bad as this is going to
00:06:07
sound I'm going to say you're operating
00:06:08
on the wrong body part
00:06:10
thank you for this happens or I just
00:06:14
need to wash your hands because we all
00:06:16
know basic you need to wash your hands
00:06:18
to prevent infection you see someone
00:06:21
enter the room and we're in a busy
00:06:22
workplace so it's not out of malice but
00:06:25
you forget to wash your hand does
00:06:26
someone raise you know does somebody
00:06:28
lower in status say
00:06:30
you forgot to wash your hands before you
00:06:32
touch the patient it can have life or
00:06:34
death consequences in the context of
00:06:36
healthcare but it is just as significant
00:06:38
in other Industries in other ways in
00:06:40
terms of do you invest in that drug or
00:06:43
not do you change the organizational
00:06:45
process in that way or not and what are
00:06:47
the ramifications of that
00:06:49
yeah so it's really interesting to think
00:06:51
about that the how
00:06:53
I hate to personalize it but I do keep
00:06:56
thinking about my you know first jobs
00:06:58
and the and the ideas I said keep my
00:07:00
head down I'm not going to say anything
00:07:01
it is if something wrong is going on I
00:07:04
mean my earliest jobs were in
00:07:06
cheering steel bars in a warehouse and
00:07:09
loading treat on box cars
00:07:12
and I I can say I can see some things
00:07:15
going on wrong and it's I'm just trying
00:07:18
to get myself away from that right I'm
00:07:20
not thinking about the whole I'm not
00:07:22
thinking about the whole organization
00:07:23
I'm thinking about
00:07:24
me and that's exactly right when we look
00:07:27
at the literature what the literature
00:07:28
and the experience would suggest is that
00:07:30
people think about what the consequences
00:07:33
are for them as the individual not the
00:07:35
consequences for the organization and
00:07:38
we're pretty we can make a guess about
00:07:39
what the consequences will be for us
00:07:42
whether that would be positive or
00:07:44
negative seeing the consequences for the
00:07:46
organization can be much more uncertain
00:07:48
they could be delayed My Punishment can
00:07:50
be immediate if someone doesn't
00:07:51
appreciate what I say
00:07:54
so for
00:07:56
just as another issue in the workplace
00:07:58
so so Dei diversity issues
00:08:02
something seems wrong to either a person
00:08:05
who is a member of a diverse group who's
00:08:08
Black Or Hispanic or a member of the
00:08:13
lgbtq community or whatever it might be
00:08:15
they see something
00:08:17
wrong in the workplace or they hear
00:08:19
something that they think is
00:08:20
inappropriate
00:08:23
the natural hesitation especially in a
00:08:25
majority
00:08:27
based organization is
00:08:31
I don't want to be the one to raise that
00:08:32
issue
00:08:35
yeah so this fits squarely in in the
00:08:38
kind of research
00:08:40
that what you're doing because the end
00:08:42
result is
00:08:44
well you should say something because it
00:08:46
it might make the organization better
00:08:48
right exactly so I would knock as you
00:08:52
said I would not be considered a Dei
00:08:54
researcher I have been studying
00:08:57
psychological safety for many years but
00:08:59
the two I do believe are intertwined
00:09:02
so you know even if you take
00:09:05
you can be diverse along many dimensions
00:09:07
you can be often when we talk about the
00:09:10
reason diversity becomes relevant as
00:09:12
people who are considered more diverse
00:09:15
tend to have lower status in the
00:09:17
organization so much like my nurse has
00:09:19
lower status than my physician or my
00:09:21
medical assistant has lower status than
00:09:22
my nurse that puts you in a position
00:09:24
where you're much more vulnerable and
00:09:27
where you're much more likely to I would
00:09:30
say there's a higher propensity to not
00:09:32
feel psychological see safe because you
00:09:34
know that you are different and you
00:09:37
understand your place in the hierarchy
00:09:38
and unless an organization or your team
00:09:42
leader in the organization has made a
00:09:44
significant effort to be welcoming of
00:09:47
all voices and all diversity and to
00:09:49
create an inclusive space
00:09:51
the default that we feel as individuals
00:09:54
is to protect ourselves we don't take
00:09:56
that risk because we know that there may
00:09:58
be serious consequences and we have seen
00:10:00
those consequences for others the thing
00:10:03
is that we know that we we learn right
00:10:06
we're humans and we learn from
00:10:07
experience so if I'm in a meeting with
00:10:10
you and other people and I see someone
00:10:12
else in the room who is maybe higher
00:10:15
status than me because they are less
00:10:17
diverse than me or whatever raise their
00:10:20
hand and the reaction is not positive by
00:10:23
others in the room I learn immediately
00:10:25
that I should not raise my hand that
00:10:28
that is even more likely to happen to me
00:10:30
because I don't have the social capital
00:10:32
to for people to say oh no they'll say
00:10:35
oh that was a half-baked idea and then
00:10:37
it goes on from there and so when you're
00:10:40
a part of when you are
00:10:44
diverse and you're typically aware
00:10:45
you're diverse
00:10:47
you're more conscious of you know you
00:10:50
know when you're taking a risk
00:10:52
and your car and we've said in some
00:10:54
other other conversations too that
00:10:58
and then this won't come out right but
00:11:00
I'm old man so I sometimes say things
00:11:01
that don't go all right you don't want
00:11:04
to be I you don't want that diversity
00:11:06
issue to be the dominant thing that
00:11:08
people turn to you for either yes that's
00:11:11
that's another reason
00:11:14
that may be unique
00:11:16
amongst reasons why you don't speak up I
00:11:18
mean the idea that you're the the the
00:11:20
the entry-level nurse and you're looking
00:11:23
out for your job
00:11:24
doesn't have a whole lot to do with the
00:11:28
idea of I don't want to be identified as
00:11:31
the smart nurse it says right right
00:11:33
you're not pegging in the space but once
00:11:36
as a diverse person you start to speak
00:11:39
on these issues
00:11:40
then you almost give license for
00:11:42
leadership to turn to you and say you
00:11:45
become responsible we've got the race
00:11:47
the race issue today it's so wait a
00:11:50
minute I'm a lawyer I don't study
00:11:52
I'm here for the finance issues I
00:11:56
experience this myself
00:11:58
which is yes it I think right there is
00:12:03
the becoming responsible for these
00:12:07
issues is another
00:12:10
um
00:12:12
is itself its own issue right and how
00:12:15
much do you want to speak about this
00:12:17
issue how much do you want to be the
00:12:19
bearer of this issue will you be
00:12:22
included after you have spoken up about
00:12:24
this issue if you were truthful about
00:12:26
what you have observed in the
00:12:28
organization it's wonderful
00:12:30
yeah so my colleague Amy Edmondson who's
00:12:33
at Harvard Business School and I
00:12:34
introduced this concept of inclusive
00:12:36
leadership or leadership inclusiveness
00:12:38
in our work in the healthcare setting
00:12:40
and in that we make this we make this
00:12:43
argument that there is sort of the
00:12:45
inclusive the invitation to speak
00:12:48
and then the reaction that happens in
00:12:50
their response to that
00:12:51
and it's twofold and we've all been in
00:12:54
situations where we've been invited so
00:12:55
maybe we've been invited to sit on the
00:12:57
Dei committee
00:12:59
and then you actually participate
00:13:02
because you think you have been invited
00:13:04
and you have received a genuine
00:13:05
invitation to to play a role in bringing
00:13:08
the organization along in this in this
00:13:11
way
00:13:11
and then the consequences are not
00:13:13
positive for you
00:13:14
you have to have both right that we've
00:13:17
all experienced the invitation not
00:13:19
followed by
00:13:20
uh the positive outcome that we hope for
00:13:22
so so the great the greater frame to to
00:13:25
your work
00:13:26
with this Dei spaces
00:13:29
it's fine to create
00:13:31
whatever kind of Dei programs
00:13:34
you want
00:13:35
but you also have to have an awareness
00:13:37
of the psychological safety issue as you
00:13:40
do so exactly and not travel someone
00:13:43
down inadvertently with all with all all
00:13:47
well intended we need to initiate these
00:13:49
programs let's let's call up Ken and
00:13:52
Ingrid Too Perfect
00:14:01
the added issue becomes frankly too
00:14:06
for all you podcast listeners becomes as
00:14:09
well if I sit on the couch myself and
00:14:11
put this stuff out there
00:14:13
um if I don't do inward gets out that I
00:14:15
don't do it that's another issue from
00:14:17
from my community is well you know he
00:14:20
was asking asking he didn't he didn't do
00:14:22
it he didn't want to support right his
00:14:24
community so all this fits under that
00:14:26
that banner I mean I love that you
00:14:28
raised the point
00:14:30
that which I think we're really seeing a
00:14:33
lot of organizations are thinking about
00:14:36
how to improve belonging and diversity
00:14:39
include you know all of it and that is a
00:14:43
wonderful thing we have hoped for this
00:14:45
for many years
00:14:46
and I think we're still figuring out how
00:14:49
to do it I I I applaud organizations for
00:14:51
the many efforts that they try
00:14:54
but what you said is exactly right
00:14:56
unless the climate really does allow for
00:15:00
the free voicing
00:15:02
for people to take a risk and deal with
00:15:05
these topics truthfully and honestly and
00:15:07
candidly
00:15:08
it sort of doesn't matter how many
00:15:10
initiatives you announce
00:15:12
right because there's a there is a
00:15:14
climate that you has to be built within
00:15:16
the organization in order for the
00:15:18
organization to do hard work that is
00:15:20
hard work
00:15:21
diversity and like Dei is hard work and
00:15:25
it means that the organization for many
00:15:27
organizations so this is going to tie
00:15:28
into my other stream of research
00:15:31
this is something that organizations
00:15:32
have to learn they have to learn how to
00:15:35
do this and learning is hard and you
00:15:37
can't do learning teams can't learn to
00:15:40
be different with each other unless
00:15:42
they're a psychological safety so your
00:15:44
point about sort of all these
00:15:45
initiatives yes you know it's who you
00:15:47
choose to be on them for sure there's
00:15:49
also the process and what happens once
00:15:52
you've put them together and they can't
00:15:53
unless they have this Foundation
00:15:55
it will be extremely hard for them to
00:15:59
take flight in the way that you might
00:16:00
hope
00:16:01
okay so so far my education is
00:16:05
so if I'm a leader and I'm going to be
00:16:08
focused on psychological safety
00:16:11
I I certainly need to
00:16:15
contemplate inclusiveness in in what I
00:16:19
do
00:16:20
and which which also just might by
00:16:22
necessity means make sure you're not
00:16:24
excluding
00:16:26
or you're going overboard with including
00:16:29
and a good way to do that the other word
00:16:31
that came up in our conversation is is
00:16:33
to be aware of the vulnerability of of
00:16:37
people as you engage in in this journey
00:16:41
but and it's it's for as I said if we
00:16:44
started off for any initiative
00:16:47
or for any
00:16:49
betterment of the the place of
00:16:51
employment this idea of thinking about
00:16:53
how do you not
00:16:56
discourage the nurse from speaking up I
00:16:58
mean he's got that Baseline idea which
00:17:00
he said I didn't know I didn't know so
00:17:01
the first part of the study but that
00:17:03
sort of sets it up so clearly that you
00:17:06
know it's about the same token it's
00:17:08
really normal with that young intern
00:17:09
doctor that that learned that thing in
00:17:12
class that the senior doctor didn't
00:17:14
learn and won't speak up in the
00:17:16
operating room this is my heart's about
00:17:18
to pick the last beat unless they give
00:17:20
me the drug that this kid knows about
00:17:21
yes
00:17:23
so please speak up
00:17:26
so so I do I do want to just in the
00:17:28
remaining time talk about the learning
00:17:30
part that you raised in organizational
00:17:32
learning and how to how to best make
00:17:35
that happen I think somewhere in your
00:17:38
work I saw the the phrase something
00:17:40
about how to learn better and faster and
00:17:42
it's kind of the framing that goes into
00:17:45
place what what kinds of things if we
00:17:48
got leaders thinking about psychological
00:17:50
safety what kinds of things do we want
00:17:52
to leave them in terms of
00:17:54
improving the learning that takes place
00:17:57
in the organization to get on board with
00:18:00
whatever it is the company is trying to
00:18:02
drive
00:18:04
so the psychological safety piece is
00:18:08
about setting the foundation and the
00:18:09
climate I think then the question
00:18:11
becomes what do you do what are we able
00:18:14
to do as a group of workers to make
00:18:16
things better and that's the learning
00:18:17
piece
00:18:18
and what I think I've learned from my
00:18:21
research well I think I've learned quite
00:18:23
a few things about but maybe the thing
00:18:24
that is most relevant for listeners is
00:18:28
the importance of learning activities
00:18:30
that really help people to understand
00:18:32
how and why they are doing what they're
00:18:34
doing
00:18:35
so let me make that a little bit more
00:18:38
concrete and some of our work we have
00:18:39
distinguished between activities that
00:18:41
are learning activities are really
00:18:42
learned what
00:18:43
um and then we have another class called
00:18:45
learn how so you think about learning
00:18:47
activity learn what activities as can
00:18:49
let me give you an article about Dei
00:18:52
so you will read the article and you
00:18:55
will magically
00:18:56
be my Dei Guru because I've given you an
00:18:58
article our work doesn't show that that
00:19:01
necessarily leads to the performance
00:19:04
benefits and the improvements that you
00:19:05
want to see on the not that I mean you
00:19:08
have to educate
00:19:09
but when you're using learning
00:19:11
activities that allow people to
00:19:12
understand why that important why that's
00:19:14
important and how that is important and
00:19:16
how that will manifest on the
00:19:18
consequences that we desire those types
00:19:20
of learning activities make a difference
00:19:22
so sometimes that is about
00:19:25
um you know in the healthcare space
00:19:27
sometimes that is you know doing your
00:19:28
plan do study act cycle let's put
00:19:30
something in let's try it out let's
00:19:33
learn from it let's Circle back around
00:19:34
being very intentional about those and
00:19:37
those more active learning activities
00:19:38
those deliberate learning activities can
00:19:41
make a huge difference but we know that
00:19:43
workers are not excited about engaging
00:19:45
in those activities unless they have
00:19:47
that foundation and they feel safe to do
00:19:49
it they have this you know that there's
00:19:50
a safety there's the resources there's
00:19:51
you know all the things we teach in
00:19:53
business school about getting things
00:19:55
done
00:19:56
but we need these
00:19:58
columns you have to have an environment
00:19:59
and I will actually say you didn't ask
00:20:02
this but I do think it is important as
00:20:04
as we move forward in thinking about Dei
00:20:07
that it might be useful to organizations
00:20:09
to position it as we are learning how to
00:20:12
do this better
00:20:14
right so it's not the difference between
00:20:15
sort of a performance like we're going
00:20:16
to be great at this tomorrow versus
00:20:18
we're on a journey together to be better
00:20:20
at including all of the voices around
00:20:23
the table
00:20:24
and that allows for some failures to
00:20:25
happen along the way and for us to
00:20:27
recover and try something new again and
00:20:30
keep at it
00:20:32
and I was going to ask that that's
00:20:34
really insightful and and you sort of
00:20:36
answered this
00:20:38
and it's fine now now we're talking
00:20:40
about this I'm thinking all this in
00:20:41
terms of my
00:20:43
my now adult kids and and there of well
00:20:48
they have been of that generation that
00:20:50
that gets triggered and what's the other
00:20:53
word that you know I want to bring my
00:20:55
genuine self and sort of all your
00:20:57
authentic being yeah authentic yeah
00:20:59
which you know which is we we had it had
00:21:02
a discussion of that's very very
00:21:03
important so I'm just expressing the 70
00:21:05
year old kind of
00:21:10
but it sounds like and as I'm thinking
00:21:12
about my kids in this sense
00:21:15
we don't often enough give the why the
00:21:19
why we're you know because I said so
00:21:22
right so it sounds like the best leaders
00:21:25
are are not saying
00:21:27
take this document do it because I said
00:21:30
so and I don't care I don't care how you
00:21:32
feel about it
00:21:34
never get to tell people you don't care
00:21:37
as a general principal as a leader we
00:21:39
don't recommend that on the organization
00:21:42
but it makes a huge difference to
00:21:44
explain to people why they're doing
00:21:47
something and what their role is and why
00:21:49
their role matters
00:21:50
it can it it's a Difference Maker people
00:21:54
want
00:21:55
I will say many people come to work
00:21:58
wanting to deliver for themselves their
00:22:01
teams and their clients and their
00:22:03
customers they want they don't people
00:22:05
don't go to work wanting to have bad
00:22:06
days no
00:22:09
nope so it's a matter of helping people
00:22:11
understand how they fit and when they
00:22:14
understand how they fit and they
00:22:15
contribute to the greater good
00:22:17
that's motivating
00:22:19
and you want to provide that you also
00:22:21
want to provide an opportunity for
00:22:22
people who are at the front lines who
00:22:23
really do know what's going on to share
00:22:26
that with you
00:22:27
you want to hear their creative ideas
00:22:30
that sounds like a great place to end
00:22:34
and a great takeaway in terms of how to
00:22:37
improve the organization by making
00:22:39
people feel safe but also having an
00:22:42
atmosphere where learning is continuous
00:22:44
and the people understand why why
00:22:47
they're doing it and they are on board
00:22:49
with making the organization a better
00:22:51
one thank you thank you thanks for
00:22:54
having me
00:22:56
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:22:58
effect we hope you found this episode
00:22:59
informative and engaging don't forget to
00:23:02
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00:23:04
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Insight from the Wharton School
