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welcome to the next episode of
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Opportunity Matters today we're going to
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focus on entertainment and the issues in
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entertainment deal with both
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representation and inclusion and as
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we've been doing in this series what
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we're going to try to do is look at both
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the problems that exist in this industry
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as well as some of the solutions or
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prospective solutions that are out there
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we've got two great guests who will join
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me in the conversation today first is
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inzinga zing Shaw I'll be calling her
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throughout the the interview she's the
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president and CEO of attack the glass
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she's an experienced SE Suite executive
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with extensive hands-on experience and
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knowledge spanning diversity equity and
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inclusion change and crisis management
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human Capital Management employee
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relations Talent acquisition
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organizational and strategic planning
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branding and Community engagement
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previously Zing was the recording
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Academy's Chief Dei officer at a pivotal
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point in the industry and she was the
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first Chief inclusion and diversity
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officer at four blue chip organizations
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including Edelman Starbucks Marsh
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Clinton and the
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NBA um and I I've met her uh along the
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way mainly in the sports context and
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have enjoyed getting to know her further
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she's she's moved around and and now
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doing this great independent work Zing
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thanks for joining us thank you so much
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for having me Ken and also joining us is
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J Thomas she's a sports and
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entertainment attorney those who knew me
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knew I was going to get an attorney on
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here sooner or later with over 15 years
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of experience she's a founder of diverse
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representation a company aimed at
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increasing in in the hiring and exposure
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of black attorneys agents managers and
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publicists in the sports and
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entertainment Industries in addition to
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creating the first ever directory of
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black attorneys agents managers and
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publicist in sports and entainment
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diverse representation also curates
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various diversity programs and
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initiatives throughout the country ja
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thank you for joining us thank you so
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much for having me I'm happy to be here
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so so let let's let's start off um just
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kind of set the stage
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um Zing what what why you want you take
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us through and we were in in kind of
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this uh award season I guess in terms of
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the entertainment
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industry and this this has been a flas
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point in some ways to illustrate to
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those who aren't aware of the absence of
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diversity in the entertainment industry
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but why don't you give us some thoughts
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on some of the biggest issues that exist
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in entertainment in terms of um
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diversity Equity inclusion and the
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opportunities that exist to to address
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those it's such a great question Ken and
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it's really what a lot of people are
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talking about right now what are the
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challenges what are the uh things that
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are stopping diversity equity and
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inclusion from moving forward
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particularly in the entertainment
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industry and there are a couple of
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things at play um first and foremost
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there are a lot of conversations around
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pay Equity whether it's pay Equity
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regarding gender and women not receiving
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the same compensation as their male
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counterparts we hear about pay Equity
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across race um hearing that white uh
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individuals are earning more money than
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ethnic minorities uh there are also a
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lot of discussions around representation
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of the lgbtq community and how that
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shows up on the acting side if you're
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talking about roles or in the sports
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side um prominent athletes that are able
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to come to the Forefront there are also
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issues around uh ableism and people who
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have disabilities not being able to
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break through the glass and and have
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representation of their demographic set
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so there are a lot of big Equity issues
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in entertainment
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um I I want to underscore the under
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representation of minorities it's
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something that we've been hearing about
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a lot um this includes onscreen payals
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behind the scene roles whether we're
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talking about actors writers directors
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producers key decision makers and the
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list goes on so um we have a lot of
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things to Grapple with in this field
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right now and we've got to be very open
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and honest about the things that are not
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Equitable in this industry if we're ever
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going to get to a point where we're able
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to move the needle forward before I ask
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you the the same
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question this this is a very interesting
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T time where some of us are stuttering
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at using the the phrase
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Dei and where there's some even absence
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of people listening to what the issues
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actually are if you if you use that
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phrase so so I really appreciate the the
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way that you've broken down the kinds of
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concerns that that exist and that it's
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not just race it's not just gender um it
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it can be someone who's from a a poor
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setting that can't find their way into
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Hollywood to get get the opportunity
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that someone that's been raised in
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Hollywood is is is able to do and and
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that's that's a lot of what we've been
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trying to get people to think about
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across these industries and the topics
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that we we're talking about in in this
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series is that the big concern the
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people that do this kind of work
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is opportunity and making sure I mean is
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it's the oldest it's the oldest piece of
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uh of the Constitution of the United
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States although there were some problems
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in the initial document the the idea of
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opportunity for all the idea of of equal
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opportunity and and access so so G your
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um your your thoughts on the issues that
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are there and if you could you know tell
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us tell us some about diverse
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representation
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sure so I started diverse representation
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about four years ago um as a black woman
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attorney one of the issues I was seeing
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in the industry was that a lot of my
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clients were black and oftentimes I was
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the only black person on their team so
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whether that was an athlete a black
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athlete or a black entertainer you know
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I would be their attorney but their
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agent would be white their publicist
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white their financial advisor white
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their manager white their entire team
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would be white and I felt like this was
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an issue we weren't talking about um I
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felt like when we talked about diversity
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and inclusion in the entertainment
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industry I felt like the focus was
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always on the toal making sure that the
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faces we saw on screen were diverse but
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paying very little attention to the
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folks who were representing those people
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on screen because if you really started
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to peel back layers those spaces were
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not diverse at all um and so that's why
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I started diverse representation when I
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started it I didn't really have a plan
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for it I didn't know what it was going
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to turn into I really started because I
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wanted to get the information out there
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I heard a lot of black actors and a lot
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of black athletes say I don't know any
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black agents I don't know any black
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attorneys so I started as just a
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database of here are all the black
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attorneys here are all the black agents
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here are all the black publist so that
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that can no longer be an excuse of I
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can't find them well now you can and
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it's free um so now we're GNA have to
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think of a different excuse and I just
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wanted people to be more cognizant about
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the people they were hiring you know
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that's the other thing a lot of Black
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Talent you know they would get on these
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platforms and preach about diversity and
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preach about you know black this and
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black that but when you look at their
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teams there are no black people in sight
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so you know I just wanted everybody in
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these spaces to be more cognizant about
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the people they are hiring um and the
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people that were on their teams so that
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was the impetus behind starting the
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company and don't interrupt but but I'm
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I'm flashing on one of our first
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conversations our first interactions I I
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think I I I told you at the time that
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I'd written a book about sports agents
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in in 1989 or 1990 or so and one of the
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things that we did in the book was to
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talk about the number of black agents
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this in the sports business and how easy
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it was to count them I mean how easy how
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easy you know it was it wasn't
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problematic and and if you if you went
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through for example one of the big big
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deals in in sports is uh who's
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representing the the first 10 top 10
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draft picks and so often then the there
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were no African-Americans representing
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any of the draft piics even though the
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top draft piics were largely
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African-American and so so there's been
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this and we'll talk about this there
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there has been this um dramatic change
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in some ways um and I I was asking you
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about how to how to keep track it was it
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was very easy to keep track of back then
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but it's it's the good thing I guess to
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say and part of what we want to raise
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too is some of the positives there it's
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it's not that easy to keep that track of
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now there there are numbers there but
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and and Zing you you'll probably have
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some reaction to this
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too the the age- old question from
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people that are hiring is is I can't
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find anybody I can't find anybody
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historically there was a little bit to
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that now that doesn't exist so we're at
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this point where diverse representation
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has a
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directory saying you can go into the
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places that you going to and you say
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well here's here's a list of people but
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we still can't get people to move to
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make make the hire and it and it works
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it can work in a lot of different ways
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too I mean it can be women won't hire
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women it it can be a black person won't
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hire a black
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person that that's a different kind of
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issue but the idea the Hollywood studio
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won't hire these diverse
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people and they can no longer say we
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can't find them what what kinds what
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kinds of steps are we taking that are
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are trying to get over that that barrier
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the barrier well here they are and
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you're still not hiring them well first
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you know we have to have a recognition
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that diversity does not equal deficiency
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I think a lot of times when corporate
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organizations or individuals are
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thinking about representation and who
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they're going to bring on board they
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believe that if you say the word
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diversity you're almost asking them to
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water down the the pipeline or the
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talent pool in terms of the quality that
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they're bringing to the table and that
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is just not a fact it's not true at all
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um diversity does not equal deficiency
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diversity just means that we are
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widening the aperture so that we can tap
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into a variety of talent pools and look
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at new and unexpected Talent you know I
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think one of the core issues around
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Innovation is ensuring that there are so
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many different points of view that you
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can really go outside of yourself and
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outside of the status quo and identify
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something that is new and unexpected and
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different and that's really what
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diversity aims to achieve and so I think
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Ken to answer your question when it
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relates to people and or organizations
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that say okay well you know thank you
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for for being able to materialize these
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diverse candidates however we just can't
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find a natural fit um what they're
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saying is that they're not ready to let
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go of the status quo they're not ready
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to look at a different type of leader or
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learn from someone who is um not a
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person that they're usually used to um
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working alongside or working under and
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so we've got to really peel back the
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layers of this onion and figure out what
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is the real core issue you know I've
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been hearing a lot of rhetoric on social
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media and traditional media that is very
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anti-
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Dei and you know it's it's it's
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interesting because you think about what
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Dei stands for diversity means
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difference um Equity is about making
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sure that we are providing opportunity
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for everyone to reach their maximum
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potential by giving them tools that are
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applicable to their needs and inclusion
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is making sure that we are curating
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spaces and environments where people
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feel like they can belong in their
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authentic way and so when we hear uh
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phrases like anti- Dei I like to really
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challenge the people who are are
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challenging our our our status and I say
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well what are are you anti the D are you
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anti the E are you anti the eye because
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when they really have to sit back and
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think about what they're against it's
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not necessarily the the things that Dei
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truly stand
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for and and it's a
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often a self-determined definition of
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what Dei means it's I'm I'm I'm actually
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anti- acronyms partly for what we just
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heard from you the idea that if you if
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you say it that's a lot different from
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this thing this Dei thing that that
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people have uh put a bull's eye upon J
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what I know one of the ways that diverse
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representation has has addressed some of
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these issues and and one of the paths to
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solution is that you have worked with
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with companies to to to help them to
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figure out ways to to meet these
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candidates to to get get to get to know
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them better part of the earliest of
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solutions that that we began to point to
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in the academic space thinking about
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this was the idea of of networking in
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the idea of getting to know someone and
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breaking down barriers in that kind of
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way what why don't you uh tell us some
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about some of the uh corporate
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relationships and and programming that
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that you've done sure so yeah we have a
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lot of corporate Partnerships with
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companies like ca WME um lioncap Warner
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Brothers Discovery and a lot of these
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companies say the same thing you know we
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can't find black candidates and also
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just as a little Aster for diverse
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representation I know that's our title
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but we're very specifically focused on
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black people in sports and entertainment
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we're not as you know maybe
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all-encompassing as other organizations
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but that was that's something we've
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heard from a lot of our partners we just
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can't black candidates um for these
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spaces so we've tried a couple different
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things to help Rectify that problem um
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we have a couple years ago we started an
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executive pipeline program because that
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was a big complaint we were hearing from
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a lot of companies you know we're able
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to find black candidates at the entry
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level but when it comes to like
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Executives SE Suite we just can't find
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them so we've created um black executive
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pipeline programs for various facets of
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the entertainment industry industry to
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help equip black candidates to become
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Executives um and work in conjunction
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with these Studios with these networks
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we've built out resume databases that
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housed thousands of black candidates um
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you know that our partners can access
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when they're looking to hire um we have
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created a Black Entertainment career
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Summit um where it's a three-day program
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and Studios production companies
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networks come in and talk to candidates
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about job opportunities how to get your
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foot in the door and have on-site
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interviews so honestly it's been a hodg
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podge of a lot of different things some
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things have worked some things haven't
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um but we worked with our partners to
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try try a lot of different things to see
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what's really going to move the ball
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forward what which of of those that you
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named what what kinds of programs have
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have seemed to work best or have had
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noted success for you um and what kinds
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of things would you or or are you
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tweaking is it's it's an ongoing process
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I know part of part of what I do a lot
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of work with the NFL part of part of
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what we found is you've got to
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constantly tweak these programs what
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whatever it is you think you had right
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it's not going to be right tomorrow
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unless unless you move forward what what
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what are some of the learnings that that
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you you've had along the way and things
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that you would uh would do to to try to
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move the needle further sure great
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question so I would say probably one of
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our takeaway ways is I think sometimes
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the short-term programs actually work
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better than the long-term programs so
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some of our short-term programs where
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it's only for like a week or even a
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weekend sometimes
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are are stronger than the ones that are
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six months to a year long some of our
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pipeline programs that we created that
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were three months long six months long
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those were a little harder to sustain um
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just because the interest level waned
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with participants kind of hard to keep
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up with people over the course of six
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months um people change jobs they move
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it's just a little more difficult to
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keep people focused for a longer period
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of time as opposed to kind of a short
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stint so we have found a lot more
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success with like shorter programs or
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events that are only for a couple days
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or a week as opposed to three months six
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months or a year um and probably our
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most successful program in terms of
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really getting black folks in the door
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has probably been our Black
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Entertainment career Summit there had
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never been a program specifically aimed
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at educating black folks on various
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careers in the entertainment industry
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and so that has been a really great
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program a ton of people have been hired
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as a result of it because we do onsite
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interviews all the networks production
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companies who participate do on-site
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interviews with people attending um and
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we've seen a lot of great success come
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out of that Zing if I can wi in yeah
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please do please really quickly because
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I think uh what ja is talking about is
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absolutely right and I just wanted to
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build on it when I was the global head
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of diversity at Starbucks we used to do
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a lot of work that was intersectional in
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nature so what I mean is that we would
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um cross collaborate across demographic
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sets and really use our employee
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resource groups as a a means of getting
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representation across the board but we
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would create projects for different ergs
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to collaborate on together so I remember
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one project in particular where there
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were three demographic sets that came to
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the table um it was the the black
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partner Network which were um employees
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comprised in the black um and you know
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African diaspora communities um the
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lgbtq community and also the Pan Asian
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community and those three groups came
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together around an innovation challenge
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that Starbucks was spearheading um as it
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relate to new products that they were
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looking to put on the shelves for
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customers and what I can tell you is
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that when the work was intersectional
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and people really had to um spend a lot
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of time with one another in communities
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that they were not used to collaborating
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in there were a lot of insights and aha
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moments that came out of that and and so
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we realize that a lot of the way that
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Dei is perceived um unfortunately is is
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perceived in U let's call it a a
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stereotypical fashion surrounding segreg
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ation because when you think about ergs
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the nature of ergs can feel very much
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like segregation you know the the blacks
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are going to have their group and the
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lgbtq will have their group and the
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disabled will have their group and so if
00:19:44
we're not figuring out ways to leverage
00:19:46
each of these demographic sets and and
00:19:49
help them come together in ways that
00:19:51
they can be supportive of one another
00:19:53
while also standing proud in the skin
00:19:55
that they were born in then we're really
00:19:58
missing the Mar so I think a lot of
00:20:00
times what organizations are are doing
00:20:02
is keeping the status quo surrounding
00:20:05
the the mindset of Dei being
00:20:08
segregationist versus a collaborative
00:20:12
community so have you
00:20:14
found and the employee research group
00:20:17
ERG topics is is certainly one that
00:20:19
sounds like it's it crosses over but
00:20:22
have you found anything that's really
00:20:25
distinct about entertainment versus the
00:20:27
other Industries you've been in yeah
00:20:30
absolutely I mean listen I think that
00:20:32
the entertainment industry is very
00:20:34
unique for a variety of of reasons it's
00:20:36
Unique because it's the one industry
00:20:39
that we look at to glean some sense of
00:20:42
joy and hope for a variety of
00:20:44
communities I mean if you think about
00:20:46
the pure nature of what entertainment
00:20:48
sets out to do it it sets out to um keep
00:20:51
people engage during times that are
00:20:54
troubling it it sets out to make people
00:20:57
laugh even when the world can um
00:20:59
certainly throw things at us that are
00:21:01
hard to digest um it it is it makes you
00:21:04
know when you think about athletes and
00:21:06
what they represent it makes us hopeful
00:21:09
that you can you know work hard put your
00:21:11
best foot forward collaborate with
00:21:13
teammates and and um reach the sky sky
00:21:17
is the limit so I think the
00:21:19
entertainment industry is very different
00:21:21
than a lot of Industries anytime I go to
00:21:23
a sporting event I look across the arena
00:21:26
and I'm always floored at how many
00:21:28
different types of people are convening
00:21:31
in one space excited to cheer for one
00:21:34
entity one the home team um and so you
00:21:36
look around and and there are black
00:21:38
people and white people and Asian and
00:21:40
Latino and then you have disabled and
00:21:43
lgbtq and old and young and it really is
00:21:46
just a beautiful array of of what
00:21:49
Humanity looks like when you think about
00:21:51
who is coming together to be entertained
00:21:54
so when you think uh about your industry
00:21:56
uh and in entertainment Collective
00:21:59
and and who it can bring together it's
00:22:01
very important for the industry to
00:22:03
recognize that representation matters
00:22:06
and having an array of people that um we
00:22:09
can look at as an on the- field product
00:22:12
or onscreen product is just as important
00:22:14
as who you're attracting to your
00:22:17
Venue you know we've got a couple
00:22:19
minutes left and z i want to make sure I
00:22:21
I ask you this question because I know
00:22:23
you think about these things on on the
00:22:25
big level from um the sea Suite kind of
00:22:28
kind of space
00:22:29
you know we are in this moment and and
00:22:31
not
00:22:32
everyone understands that this is part
00:22:34
of the Dei space too but but what is it
00:22:37
that that companies what kinds of
00:22:39
conversations are taking place about uh
00:22:42
islamophobia and
00:22:44
anti-Semitism in the the top levels of
00:22:46
these companies and and I guess more
00:22:49
specifically what kinds of conversations
00:22:51
should be taking place and what kinds of
00:22:53
action should should they take I'm so
00:22:55
glad you brought this topic up because
00:22:57
it certainly is front um of mind for all
00:23:00
of us uh that are witnessing what's
00:23:02
happening in the world and I would just
00:23:03
say that companies um have been
00:23:05
addressing anti-Semitism and
00:23:07
islamophobia particularly in the
00:23:09
entertainment industry um by a
00:23:11
combination of things which all involve
00:23:14
awareness education representation also
00:23:18
policy changes so there is progress that
00:23:20
is being made I think there's a lot of
00:23:22
work that can still be done but some of
00:23:24
the things that I've seen in
00:23:25
entertainment are um with industry
00:23:28
stakeholders including Studios and
00:23:30
production companies they're
00:23:32
implementing dni initiatives to promote
00:23:34
representation of diverse communities
00:23:36
including Jewish and Muslim individuals
00:23:39
and these uh some of these these efforts
00:23:42
include targeted hiring practices
00:23:44
mentorship programs the inclusion of
00:23:46
diverse voices in decision-making
00:23:49
processes so that's huge also
00:23:51
educational programs there are a lot of
00:23:53
efforts to educate industry
00:23:54
professionals on the nuances and impacts
00:23:57
of anti semitism and islamophobia and
00:24:00
they have been implemented so training
00:24:02
programs and workshops are addressing
00:24:04
stereotypes cultural sensitivity the
00:24:07
importance of accurate representation
00:24:09
and storytelling and then last I'll just
00:24:12
say that there have been a lot of
00:24:14
responses to controversies that we've
00:24:16
seen play out on social media and in
00:24:19
traditional media and so there are
00:24:21
instances of anti-Semitism or
00:24:23
islamophobia in the entertainment
00:24:25
industry um often met with a public
00:24:27
outcry so in response industry
00:24:30
professionals Studios networks are
00:24:32
issuing public statements condemning
00:24:34
this Behavior they're taking corrective
00:24:36
action they're re-evaluating content and
00:24:39
severing ties with individuals involved
00:24:41
so I think this is these are topics that
00:24:44
are going to be front um and Center for
00:24:46
a long time well Zing J we we have run
00:24:50
out of time as I told you told you what
00:24:52
happened um you know the important thing
00:24:54
I want want to close with J made a great
00:24:57
point about every organization can't do
00:25:00
everything and if it's it's it's the
00:25:01
little things that can make the change
00:25:04
come about if we have Enterprises like
00:25:05
diverse representation working on on
00:25:08
blacks getting access we have other
00:25:09
organizations working on on other folks
00:25:11
and if we have those who can take on the
00:25:13
mega mega space that's important too so
00:25:16
thank you to you both uh look forward to
00:25:19
everybody joining us on our next episode
00:25:21
of Opportunity
00:25:24
[Music]
00:25:26
Matters I'm farita Griffith managing
00:25:28
director for the Wharton Coalition for
00:25:30
equity and opportunity in partnership
00:25:32
with Wharton Works led by Professor
00:25:34
Damon Phillips business round table and
00:25:37
second chance business Coalition we're
00:25:39
bringing together Business Leaders
00:25:41
academics State leaders and Justice
00:25:44
impacted communities for discussions on
00:25:46
creating Pathways to sustainable
00:25:47
employment for individuals who are
00:25:49
formally incarcerated to learn more and
00:25:52
register go to
00:25:54
ceo. won. up.edu
