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hi i'm catherine klein i'm vice dean for
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social impact at Wharton and I'm
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delighted to speak today with Kat Taylor
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who is the co-founder and CEO of
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beneficial State Bank beneficial State
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Bank is a triple bottom-line business
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focused on enhancing the prosperity
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economic sustainability and
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environmental sustainability of
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low-income communities so Kat thanks so
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much for being with us thank you this is
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a tremendous opportunity for us thank
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you I'm delighted to speak with you so
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let's start with a bank so why a bank so
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others with your level of professional
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achievement your level of financial
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achievements with success would and your
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passion for social justice for
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environmental change I think would say
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alright let's start a charitable
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foundation you said let's start a bank
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yeah I think yeah so often people don't
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even want to talk about banking because
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it's boring and complex and has some
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negative affiliations but banks
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nonetheless are extremely important in
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the way not only the economy works but
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in in what we drive in terms of societal
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outcomes the way we think about banking
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is that it is in a way the original and
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most powerful form of crowdfunding not
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that a specific deposit funds a specific
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loan but all deposits fund a lending
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practice and they do it with enormous
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prerogatives granted by us the public
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starting with FDIC insurance that allows
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banks to gather deposits at very low
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cost because they're insured risk free
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up to one hundred two hundred fifty
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thousand dollars also we're a leveraged
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business model banks enjoy leverage of
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at least ten to one so we have sort of
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exponential impact we recycle the
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capital it goes out and loans and comes
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back to us in large part so we can loan
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it again so the impact is accumulates
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over time and it's an extremely
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disciplined business model we have 13
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exams a year and three separate
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regulators so we're constantly
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monitoring and understanding what that
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capital is doing banking is super
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important and we've underestimated how
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much it drives in society
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and in our view under expected of it we
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should ask more of our banks they drive
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so much important outcomes of importance
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to us so we did look at other models
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before starting the Bank venture
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philanthropy of traditional private
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foundation etc but we kept coming back
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to the Bank model because of its
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influence and its centrality to most
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people in their lives it's probably
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likely where a lot of people got their
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mortgage where they transact their
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business used to be a pillar of the
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community in communities it's less that
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now but it can be a really important
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part of the whole ecosystem in which the
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families and individuals and communities
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we care most about live and and for
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those who are not familiar with
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beneficial State Bank give us a picture
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of this Bank what's different it's not
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it's not Bank of America yeah you know
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what what is it what should we how do we
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visualize this how do we understand its
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scope and size sure so we started in
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2007 some might have considered that an
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inauspicious time to become a bank but
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actually by the luck of the timing of
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our birth we made it through the great
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recession that landed in 2008 because we
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hadn't lent much money out yet so we
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didn't have sick assets because we
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honestly didn't have many assets at all
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other than cash and we got enormous
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insights looking at that Maelstrom what
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caused it what the repercussions were
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how it amplified over time at this point
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we've grown to be 800 million in assets
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that sounds like a big number to me but
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it's actually quite tiny in the banking
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landscape the biggest banks in the world
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are now well over 2 trillion in assets
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that's many many zeros away but actually
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our size is now getting to be an asset
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for us in terms of coverage we have 18
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offices 225 employees in the three West
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Coast state so we're starting to get the
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geographic info we desire we're not
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attempting to be a National Bank in in
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large part because our model depends on
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accountability and that requires
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responsiveness but we're getting to a
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scale where we can have influence
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on the banking system and we also are
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getting a product set that more fully
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answers what people could and should
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expect from a bank so we're now a
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consumer lender as well as a commercial
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lender offering auto loans and credit
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cards but also scaled finance for social
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enterprise nonprofits etc so the
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difference in the bank our design
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features that we intentionally laid in
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to make sure that our bank model would
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be in alignment with the public interest
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and the values of our stakeholders first
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off we define our stakeholders much more
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broadly much more like a B corporation
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like we are they include not only our
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customers borrowers and trans actors of
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course not only our equity shareholders
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but also our communities the environment
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and the public at large so in order to
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have true alignment with those
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stakeholders the first thing we change
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was the ownership structure of the bank
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so 100% of the economic rights of
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beneficial State Bank are held and owned
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by beneficial State Foundation which is
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a public charity public charities are
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governed permanently in the public
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interest they can never be controlled by
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a private individual and the bylaws of
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that foundation require it when it
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receives profit from the bank through
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the dividend process to reinvest those
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profits back into the communities that
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we serve which are primarily low income
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and the environment upon which we all
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depend the second design feature has to
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do with that lending practice if we are
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crowdfunding on behalf of our
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stakeholders then we should crack that
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we should lend with respect to their
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values so preponderantly we put our loan
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capital meaning we count the loan
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dollars and at least 75% should be in
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the hands of change makers who are
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either providing something we
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desperately need like affordable housing
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renewable energy sustainable food or
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their unique ownership structures like
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ours as well B corporations worker
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cooperatives or they're simply
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communities and actors who've been
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deprived of capital in the past and have
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a very valid point of view to bring into
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the main econo
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so that would be small business at large
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women and minority-owned businesses
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low-income communities nonprofits etc
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that's design feature number two design
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feature number three is radical
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transparency so we not only report out
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on what our loans are doing who's
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holding them and that warrant that they
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aren't undermining our triple bottom
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line that you described but we're also
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taking affirmative commitments about how
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we act as a corporation we are B
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Corporation v is in the satellite the
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community we are also a community
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development financial institution which
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is a Treasury designation that's hard to
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get hard to keep we have a living wage
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policy we pay a hundred and fifty
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percent of living wage and all markets
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fully benefited we don't finance fossil
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fuels we measure our greenhouse gas and
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water landfill footprint drive it down
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every year put on an FTE basis we design
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the small business bill of rights etc
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etc you can see right what we're trying
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to do is hold ourselves accountable to
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third party auditable standards so that
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we act and fly right yeah and the
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purpose of that is double because our
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mission is to change the banking system
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for good and we're not going to do that
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as one bank we're going to do that and a
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theory of change it involves migrating
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over time deposit equity and human
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capital into these kinds of warranties
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into banks that act like us they will
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always be bigger than us but they can
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act like us and they might choose to as
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their growth strategy where the big
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banks can't change very readily the
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mid-size banks need always new
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strategies for growth and we think we're
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giving them sort of a playbook on that
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fascinating so a couple of questions and
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points to underscore one is are your are
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your branches based only in low-income
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communities how do you think about you
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know where they're located and where
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you'd want to expand sure well the whole
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branch model is somewhat up to inquiry
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at the moment because of the arrival of
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technology to banking like every other
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industry we feel like we still need to
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have a physical presence and we're
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possible we choose for that to be in
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in communities so preponderance of our
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branches are in low-income markets some
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exceptions just by inaccurate
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anachronistic choices of the past we've
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bought for banks and so sometimes we
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inherited their branch decision but for
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instance the two banks that we just
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merged with in June gave us seven new
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branches five in the Central Valley of
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California very important area for us
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for us to serve one in East LA one in
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North Hollywood and they are very much
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aligned with low-income community
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service the whole question of branch
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banking is one of not only what are the
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what's the user experience that people
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are looking for it's also a chance for
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us to improve the ecological footprint
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of banking I sometimes think it would be
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nice if we converted all those corner
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bank branches of old that are not so
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necessary anymore into low-income
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housing the re-insert needed
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affordability into the urban core but
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that might be a pipe dream at this point
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at this point at this point I wouldn't
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put it past you so you've been in
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business nearly 10 years what do you
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think the is even reflect back on those
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10 years what important lessons learned
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I mean when you launched this Bank with
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these bold ambitions and now you've
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you're here and alive and well 10 years
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later key lessons key points of a
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transition so I think in the beginning
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we had to begin and we had to experience
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what it was like to be a bank what the
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opportunities and challenges are in the
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banking landscape and understand them
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deeply and and I think we've probably
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thought we were going to change the
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banking system in an incremental fashion
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by just becoming kind of a bank that
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better serves the public interest I
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think now we've grown to realize that we
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need to redefine the category writ large
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that we should expect more from our
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banks we should understand the enormous
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public prerogatives publicly derived
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prerogatives that they have and how
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impactful they are on societal
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comes and make the banking system work
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for us there's 12 trillion dollars of
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deposits in the American economy alone
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those belong to us so if we make choices
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and align with our own values we might
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get better outcomes out of the banking
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system and at this point we really need
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to because it overwhelms a lot of other
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industries ability to address those
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large societal problems and it we dacent
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have it driving them the problems that
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is so if you look at philanthropic
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capital for instance I was told recently
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that all the philanthropic capital in
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the United States put together would
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fund about 15 months of the public
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school budget Wow yeah so if we can get
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business models fundamentally right in
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the first place especially banking so
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that they don't cause a lot of negative
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externalities or problems for us then we
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don't have to spend so much time and
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resource cleaning things up that's the
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main insight I think I mean there are
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many we've made our share of missteps
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along the way acquisition and
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integration is tricky culture is
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massively important a lot of young
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companies ignore culture until they have
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an accidental one these are things the
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blocking and tackling of every single
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day that we have to keep working on and
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we still need to grow half of
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Californians lives south of Ventura
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Boulevard and we're not really present
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there so we have more wood to chop yeah
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yeah and so you have this larger mission
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of not only serving your customers and
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communities but transforming the banking
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system this huge vision how do you get
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there yeah so we were just revisiting
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some proof points that were derived from
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a rebranding process we went through to
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become beneficial State Bank you can
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imagine on the way buying for banks and
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growing the initial one and moving into
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three state markets we had to change our
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name a fair bit along the way but
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beneficial State is a name that's meant
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to suggest the beneficial State we
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should all be in as a result of our
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banking system being an alignment with
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our values so the proof points that we
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call out and use to identify if we're
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getting closer to changing the banking
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system for good
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our number one making sure that we're
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deploying capital for its highest
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purpose which means actually helping our
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borrowers attain their highest purpose
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make sure that for instance B
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corporations who have a very explicit
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high purpose instilled in their very DNA
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we need to help them be successful and
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grow that community so first basically
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power to the highest purpose second is
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to make sure that the banking system is
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generating healthy transactional
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services for people banking services
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that actually make them better off the
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day after them they were the day before
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not payday loan debt that is a debt trap
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not the overextension of products that
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no one wants or needs but banking
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services that literally allow someone to
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be healthy in their life
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the third is and it's based on our
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profit taking model is it reinforces
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this but we need the banking system to
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actually reinforce the communities that
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they serve and the earth upon which we
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all depend so the fact that we are
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putting profit back into those
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communities and the planet is an
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important proof point for us I will say
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we have not issued a dividend because
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young banks especially who are still
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acquiring are encouraged by the
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regulator's to retain all earnings for
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growth but the bank the strongest lever
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we have to achieve healthy communities
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and a healthy planet is the bank it's
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really the lending practice that does it
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so we would always preference lending
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over grant making nevertheless we did
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capitalize the beneficial State
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Foundation so that it can grant into our
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communities about five to ten percent of
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the equivalent of our profit every year
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which is much higher than other banks
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the last is that we need to be true
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advocates we need to be a voice for
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change it isn't enough to quietly labor
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on our own we have to join trade
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associations like the Global Alliance
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for banking on values and the community
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Developers Association to advocate with
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our regulators and stakeholders and the
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public for a better banking system and
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the best way we can do that is first and
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foremost to show that
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Bank aligned with those values that's
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resilient ly profitable is a viable
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alternative to some of the other models
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in the system but we also speak with as
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louder voices we possibly can
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yeah all right so so part of it is being
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a role model doing your business well
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being a role model and sharing the story
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and getting out an alternative model of
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banking I want to go to the your B
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certification as a as a certified B
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Corporation so as you know well know
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companies that are be certified go
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through this elaborate vetting process
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and assessment around a set of practices
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the B lab assessment measures your
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environmental practices your practices
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for your workers your customers your
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community and your governance and and as
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you said I think what you said you're
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the fifth highest scoring but so a quite
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an accomplishment
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I'd love to to hear more about your
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practices specifically with regard to
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workers so some years ago as you know I
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studied a lot of attention pointing out
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that nearly a third of all bank tellers
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in the United States qualified for and
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receive some form of public assistance
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so people working in the banks on food
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stamps on on Medicaid and so on how do
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you pay your your workers how do you try
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to not be those banks right so we call
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that part of the train of misery
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actually that one-third of bank tellers
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and it shocks people because the banks
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are among the most profitable
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corporations in the world so why they
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would not pay their workers enough to
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avoid needing public assistance is a
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quandary in our case we proactively make
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a an affirmative commitment to them that
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we will pay a hundred and fifty percent
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of living wage in all markets fully
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benefited so we don't tolerate piecemeal
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part-time work that disqualifies people
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from benefits we use the MIT living wage
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calculator to make sure that we have a
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credible source of what that living wage
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should be in our markets we 150 percent
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is what
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is suggested for an one adult and one
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dependent so we're trying to make sure
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that the wage contributes to the
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household income adequately we'd love to
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increase that amount and we will strive
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to overtime but it represents to us the
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minimum that we would ever pay anyone
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and it's always above $15 an hour
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we also adjust for other salaried and
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wage earners to make sure there's
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rationale across the whole group of
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people um we're big advocates for fight
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for fifteen national standard minimum
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wage no exemptions but we do also worry
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a lot about other non salary non-wage
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conditions and benefits for our
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employees
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so we try to make sure that starting
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with our culture that we're creating a
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culture that's healthy and respectful
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for our fellow colleagues we have a run
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a lot of employee driven committees on
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wellness on the green team etc we
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recruit them to design their own sort of
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work life if you will we work with a
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benefits provider that's fashion forward
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and thinking about new things we can do
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we also are just labeled so that's a
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food style label that it tends to pick
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as 22 areas of social justice practice
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in a corporate setting is looking at
00:19:02
procurement policies labor practices
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ethnic and gender diversity we choose
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diversity if you don't choose diverse
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you don't get it so if you wait for it
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to happen you will be subject to legacy
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dynamics in our view so we affirmative
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ly go out and choose diversity
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everywhere we can try to keep very high
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proportions of diversity throughout the
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organization and work with other vendor
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partners like labor X is a platform we
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go to often to seek non-traditional
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workers so that we have a better
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pipeline
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and I'm curious how others respond to
00:19:41
your practices others in other banking
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institutions and the you know you're
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paying 150 percent of a living wage do
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they look at that and say well that's
00:19:49
all very nice your small bank you have a
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social mission you know good for you we
00:19:53
couldn't possibly yeah and what's the
00:19:56
response if that's happening what's your
00:19:57
response so being a small bank should
00:20:01
actually make it harder for us to pay
00:20:03
that because we don't have the same
00:20:04
scale economies that the big banks do we
00:20:07
don't have the bargaining power we don't
00:20:09
have that concentration of power so it's
00:20:11
a somewhat of a shamira to say we're too
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big to pay our employees fairly likely
00:20:18
it's more capital market pressure we we
00:20:22
also need to be profitable that is part
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of our business model and it is
00:20:26
certainly a regulatory requirement we
00:20:29
target a six to ten percent return on
00:20:30
equity in a very stable way we feel
00:20:34
that's enough to fuel our growth and be
00:20:37
resilient but not so much that we're
00:20:39
overcharging or underpaying somewhere
00:20:42
because in our experience high returns
00:20:45
from overcharging and under paying are
00:20:48
not only not part of our mission but
00:20:50
they're not sustainable over time and
00:20:52
they set off other second-order effects
00:20:57
and you see them yes I mean if people
00:20:59
aren't making enough in their basic wage
00:21:02
then you're gonna have a very strong
00:21:05
sales culture if that's the only other
00:21:07
place they can pick up some income right
00:21:09
interesting so um you lead a triple
00:21:13
bottom-line business as we've been
00:21:15
discussing in what ways is leaving a
00:21:18
triple bottom-line business more
00:21:19
difficult and then leading a business
00:21:21
that has a more singular focus and there
00:21:24
are there ways in which is less
00:21:25
difficult than building a business with
00:21:27
a singular focus on profit yeah I am
00:21:30
sort of a half glass fold gal but they
00:21:34
so I think it's actually easier it is
00:21:36
more complex because it's an
00:21:39
optimization model not a maximization
00:21:41
model but I don't have a categorical
00:21:44
mind I really it's very hard for me to
00:21:46
focus because everything is related to
00:21:49
me so I
00:21:50
an optimization model and I think it's
00:21:52
more reflective of reality that in a
00:21:55
sense if you put a maximization model
00:21:57
into the world you're solving for one
00:22:00
outcome that that isn't actually truly
00:22:03
sustainable in the world that we know
00:22:05
the I think it's it's interesting
00:22:09
diversity and optimization are both
00:22:12
perceived to be harder to manage more
00:22:15
complex but they lead to better decision
00:22:17
aim I think the studies are starting to
00:22:19
show this that and can you give an
00:22:21
example of what that might mean in
00:22:23
practice optimization and diversity and
00:22:25
how it might influence your
00:22:26
decision-making mmm-hmm so diversity and
00:22:30
decision making I think means that you
00:22:31
are inviting if not recruiting more
00:22:34
points of view into the decisioning
00:22:36
process you will in a sense have less
00:22:38
common ground at the outset but you will
00:22:41
have a richer consideration of all the
00:22:43
real factors that are influencing the
00:22:45
best decision to make optimization I
00:22:48
think is harder it's a harder process to
00:22:52
manage because you can't sort of take a
00:22:56
linear approach I'm not explaining as
00:23:00
well but I think there's just more
00:23:02
things going on at once that you have to
00:23:04
keep track of and think of what the
00:23:06
interdependencies are so you're really
00:23:07
trying to balance multiple goals or
00:23:09
pursue multiple goals and find the way
00:23:10
that those are synergistic yes and
00:23:13
mutually interdependent but I think what
00:23:16
we've done for a couple hundred years
00:23:18
now is insist on a maximization model
00:23:20
that isn't eliminating those
00:23:23
second-order and Inter dependency
00:23:26
effects it's just ignoring them so we're
00:23:29
opening the aperture of the camera lens
00:23:31
and looking at everything that's going
00:23:32
on I keep a list called these things
00:23:34
also happened because just because you
00:23:36
aren't noticing them doesn't mean they
00:23:38
aren't happening yeah yeah so a final
00:23:41
question then about you as a as a leader
00:23:44
so in this space and what your bank is
00:23:47
trying to do given that it's a triple
00:23:48
bottom-line business you are managing
00:23:51
lots of different goals as we've
00:23:52
described connecting with lots of
00:23:54
different constituencies what do you
00:23:56
think makes you particularly successful
00:23:58
in doing that so that if somebody else
00:24:00
is aspiring to this and thinking I don't
00:24:02
know
00:24:02
and do that are there you know is there
00:24:05
is there something that allows you to
00:24:06
achieve this so it begins with it's not
00:24:11
me it's us and it is a so we believe
00:24:16
that we do better together than apart
00:24:18
that's sort of a basic philosophy of the
00:24:20
bank and that means we also would we
00:24:23
manage better when we listen to all the
00:24:25
voices and when people have agency and
00:24:27
accountability and authority so we're
00:24:30
trying to delegate out decisioning not
00:24:34
in a disorganized way but we're trying
00:24:36
to get more heads into the process I
00:24:39
often say let's put more in different
00:24:42
people in charge
00:24:42
let's get those new points of view let's
00:24:45
get the diversity let's get that
00:24:46
optimization minds in there and let's
00:24:49
get as many as we can if if I think
00:24:52
about the world when we you know we sort
00:24:54
of been mown seven billion people
00:24:56
because it seems like such a challenge
00:24:58
but that's seven billion hidden geniuses
00:25:00
and if we could find a way in an
00:25:02
organized way to harness all that mental
00:25:04
energy and imagination and vision I
00:25:07
think we'd actually make better choices
00:25:09
and come up with better institutions and
00:25:11
so that's what we're trying to do on a
00:25:13
mini scale and that means a lot of
00:25:16
emphasis on succession not that
00:25:19
succession like if someone gets hit by a
00:25:21
bus who's gonna take over them but we're
00:25:22
really trying to focus on how do we help
00:25:25
people develop their skills and
00:25:28
opportunity set the the highest that
00:25:30
they could possibly be so they can take
00:25:32
a large leading role in the organization
00:25:34
great fabulous thank you so much for
00:25:36
being with us thank you very much for
00:25:38
having us here and delving into banking
00:25:41
thank you
00:25:59
you
